"Because here they are like a rag for you."
February 6, 2011 3:18 AM Subscribe
"You come and you do everything, all the things you don't do with your wife out of respect, you let yourself do here. Because here they are like a rag for you. If one doesn't want to do something she can go home. There will be another one within seconds, so you can do whatever you want." .... "You can do everything and everything alright. And why is that? Because with my employees, when I tell them to do something, they better do it. So even if she's a really good employee, she has to get up in the morning and go to work and she has to make my fantasies a reality because I am paying her money."What do Israeli sex tourists in Thailand really think?
This post was deleted for the following reason: Ugh, I'm not sure this needs to be a metafilter post. -- cortex
I did a Google search for the phrase "Israeli sex tourists". There were forty-four results, nearly half of which were for that article. Then I did a search for "American sex tourists". There were around one hundred and thirty five thousand results.
Incidentally, excluding the word "children" from the second search brought it down to ninety-nine results.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:47 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Incidentally, excluding the word "children" from the second search brought it down to ninety-nine results.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:47 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is this supposed to be something unique to Israelis in Thailand or is it just how most prostitutes are treated by their customers everywhere?
posted by pracowity at 3:51 AM on February 6, 2011
posted by pracowity at 3:51 AM on February 6, 2011
Why did you think this story was worth featuring on Metafilter, Ortho?
posted by crunchland at 3:53 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by crunchland at 3:53 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
There were forty-four results,
Joe, you're comparing apfels and oranges: the number 44 is the number you get on the final page of search results, which is not identical to the estimated search results on the first page, which is where the 135,000 comes from.
Estimated results are 6160 and 135,000; actual are 44 and 221. Why those numbers mean anything at all, or how they help illuminate the linked article, is another question entirely.
Is this supposed to be something unique to Israelis in Thailand? The researcher profiled in the linked article thinks there is; the article does into his theories.
posted by orthogonality at 3:59 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Joe, you're comparing apfels and oranges: the number 44 is the number you get on the final page of search results, which is not identical to the estimated search results on the first page, which is where the 135,000 comes from.
Estimated results are 6160 and 135,000; actual are 44 and 221. Why those numbers mean anything at all, or how they help illuminate the linked article, is another question entirely.
Is this supposed to be something unique to Israelis in Thailand? The researcher profiled in the linked article thinks there is; the article does into his theories.
posted by orthogonality at 3:59 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Dude, this is just like the facebook movie. Asian women love Jews.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 4:02 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 4:02 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
I did a Google search for the phrase "Israeli sex tourists". There were forty-four results, nearly half of which were for that article.But there are no results for "Palestinian sex tourists". Proving something.
posted by planet at 4:03 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
I did a Google search for the phrase "Australian sex tourists" and got 8,630 results; excluding the word "children" brought it down to 2,040. I would guess that there is a certain percentage from all countries, and search results reflect that percentage adjusted for access to, and participation on, the web?
I think the focus on Israeli tourists is because this is in an Israeli newspaper, and so the focus in on their readership. It's not a statement that all the tourists are Israeli, or that Israeli people have a specific problem that's just about them. At least according to this site, the people who frequent female prostitutes in Thailand are 4.6 million Thai men, and 500,000 foreign tourists. The "customers" are coming from all parts, within and outside Thailand.
posted by Houstonian at 4:05 AM on February 6, 2011
I think the focus on Israeli tourists is because this is in an Israeli newspaper, and so the focus in on their readership. It's not a statement that all the tourists are Israeli, or that Israeli people have a specific problem that's just about them. At least according to this site, the people who frequent female prostitutes in Thailand are 4.6 million Thai men, and 500,000 foreign tourists. The "customers" are coming from all parts, within and outside Thailand.
posted by Houstonian at 4:05 AM on February 6, 2011
It's Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, and it is about Israelis. It is an article about sex tourism with a particular context. I see the start of some people being defensive about how this fact was mentioned in the OP, but honestly, why must we decontextualize things if Israel is involved? From the article:
Another interviewee, 26, went even further when he explained to Brucker about the ideological messages he insists on relaying to the prostitutes. "I give them a lot of Zionism, lots of Zionism. I talk about Israel constantly, about the army, how much I don't like Arabs and that they shouldn't go with Arabs? I tell them I was a paratrooper and that I fought the Arabs who killed my commander. I tell them that in Israel, radical Muslims carry out terror attacks. Somehow it isn't easy to explain it to them, but I try."
Brucker surmises that Israeli sex tourism, like domestic violence and sexist attitudes towards women, is directly connected to service in the IDF.
To understand this, you have to talk about Israel. If you want to post an article about how Americans see sex tourism, and how it relates to American culture, post it. Don't get defensive that this post is about Israeli sex tourists, as if you have to talk about American sex tourists before you talk about Israeli sex tourists.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 4:05 AM on February 6, 2011 [14 favorites]
Another interviewee, 26, went even further when he explained to Brucker about the ideological messages he insists on relaying to the prostitutes. "I give them a lot of Zionism, lots of Zionism. I talk about Israel constantly, about the army, how much I don't like Arabs and that they shouldn't go with Arabs? I tell them I was a paratrooper and that I fought the Arabs who killed my commander. I tell them that in Israel, radical Muslims carry out terror attacks. Somehow it isn't easy to explain it to them, but I try."
Brucker surmises that Israeli sex tourism, like domestic violence and sexist attitudes towards women, is directly connected to service in the IDF.
To understand this, you have to talk about Israel. If you want to post an article about how Americans see sex tourism, and how it relates to American culture, post it. Don't get defensive that this post is about Israeli sex tourists, as if you have to talk about American sex tourists before you talk about Israeli sex tourists.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 4:05 AM on February 6, 2011 [14 favorites]
Repulsive. Sometimes I hate my gender too.
And as a supposed Jew, I'm really ashamed that so many Jewish men seem to align self-actualization and assertive Judaism with retrograde chauvinism. I have no numbers so this might be anecdotal, but its what I've seen.
posted by tempythethird at 4:09 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
And as a supposed Jew, I'm really ashamed that so many Jewish men seem to align self-actualization and assertive Judaism with retrograde chauvinism. I have no numbers so this might be anecdotal, but its what I've seen.
posted by tempythethird at 4:09 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think the focus on Israeli tourists is because this is in an Israeli newspaper, and so the focus in on their readership.
Exactly.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:11 AM on February 6, 2011
Exactly.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:11 AM on February 6, 2011
"I give them a lot of Zionism, lots of Zionism. I talk about Israel constantly, about the army, how much I don't like Arabs and that they shouldn't go with Arabs?
It's like the old saying goes, you don't pay a prostitute for sex, you pay her to listen to your thoughts on the Arab-Israeli conflict afterward.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:34 AM on February 6, 2011 [30 favorites]
It's like the old saying goes, you don't pay a prostitute for sex, you pay her to listen to your thoughts on the Arab-Israeli conflict afterward.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:34 AM on February 6, 2011 [30 favorites]
I'm really ashamed that so many Jewish men seem to align self-actualization and assertive Judaism with retrograde chauvinism.
To be fair, I don't think it's limited to Jewish men.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:37 AM on February 6, 2011
To be fair, I don't think it's limited to Jewish men.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:37 AM on February 6, 2011
I did a search for "Lincolnshire Fens" and "sex tourists" with returned zero results, proving scientifically and irrefutably that my people are moral paragons who put the rest of you low-lifes to shame. Also a bit of a surprise as I've always heard dark mutterings about the real draw of the annual Flower Parade in Spalding.
posted by Abiezer at 4:38 AM on February 6, 2011 [16 favorites]
posted by Abiezer at 4:38 AM on February 6, 2011 [16 favorites]
I want to bleach my brain after reading this.
posted by Jubey at 4:43 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 4:43 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
While I have no a priori moral problem with prostitution, I do have a problem with the fact that any of these men think this is a normal way for people to live and function, and that there is anything but crushing poverty and massive social coercion driving these women to do the work they do. Just... gross.
posted by cthuljew at 4:48 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by cthuljew at 4:48 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Skip to paragraph six for hilarious Jew/Nose quip.
posted by dougrayrankin at 4:51 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by dougrayrankin at 4:51 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
I did a Google search for "happy kitten sounds" and got 260,000 results!
posted by blucevalo at 4:59 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 4:59 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
It never fails to amaze me that so many, many men believe that prostitutes, strippers, porn actresses, etc., truly enjoy what they do.
Fact check: they despise you, they're just good actresses. Yes, all of them, even the one you are convinced really likes you. Especially that one.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:03 AM on February 6, 2011 [6 favorites]
Fact check: they despise you, they're just good actresses. Yes, all of them, even the one you are convinced really likes you. Especially that one.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:03 AM on February 6, 2011 [6 favorites]
Jeez, that's pretty ugly. Thank goodness it's in Ha'aretz.
posted by nevercalm at 5:05 AM on February 6, 2011
posted by nevercalm at 5:05 AM on February 6, 2011
One man told me, after Patayya, even when his wife tells him no he knows she really means yes
Oh, well that's just fucking wonderful, isn't it.
Christ what a bunch of assholes.
posted by paisley henosis at 5:14 AM on February 6, 2011
Oh, well that's just fucking wonderful, isn't it.
Christ what a bunch of assholes.
posted by paisley henosis at 5:14 AM on February 6, 2011
Interesting how the johns blame feminism and supposedly uptight Israeli women for the actions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:15 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:15 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
I did a search for "Lincolnshire Fens" and "sex tourists" with returned zero results
I did a search for "scousers" and "sex tourists":
About 31,900,000 results (0.16 seconds)
As there are only 450,000 of us, that obviously means that we've all been to Thailand (or Jamaica in the case of the women) to buy sex about 64 times each.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:18 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
I did a search for "scousers" and "sex tourists":
About 31,900,000 results (0.16 seconds)
As there are only 450,000 of us, that obviously means that we've all been to Thailand (or Jamaica in the case of the women) to buy sex about 64 times each.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:18 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm gonna need some coffee in me before I try to read this post. Jesus.
posted by nola at 5:19 AM on February 6, 2011
posted by nola at 5:19 AM on February 6, 2011
514 results for Metafilter and "sex tourists".
posted by Houstonian at 5:20 AM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Houstonian at 5:20 AM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
Brucker emphasizes in his study that the victims of the sex trade, first and foremost, are the women, but he adds that men, too, have become the victims of the society they belong to. They suffer not only from the social requirements around them - to be rich, to be handsome, to be a chauvinist - but also from the merciless social requirement to get laid. "People there don't rest," he said. "They feel the need to have sex with more and more women. They don't care that they're tired, they don't listen to what their bodies are telling them."Is the author referring to society in Israel here, or Thailand? I couldn't figure this paragraph out.
posted by Ritchie at 5:20 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Looks like fanboy fiction to me.
posted by I love you more when I eat paint chips at 5:22 AM on February 6, 2011
posted by I love you more when I eat paint chips at 5:22 AM on February 6, 2011
It never fails to amaze me that so many, many men believe that prostitutes, strippers, porn actresses, etc., truly enjoy what they do.
Fact check: they despise you, they're just good actresses. Yes, all of them, even the one you are convinced really likes you. Especially that one.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:03 AM on February 6
It never fails to amaze me that so many, many people who are not prostitutes, strippers, porn actresses etc. truly think they can speak for every single one of the men and and women that are.
Fact check: Not all people in the sex industry do the same stuff, with the same sort of people, or feel the same way about what we do. And a whole bunch of us really, really hate it when people who don't understand that make bold sweeping statements about us that are patently, demonstrably and offensively false.
posted by TheTorns at 5:28 AM on February 6, 2011 [36 favorites]
Fact check: they despise you, they're just good actresses. Yes, all of them, even the one you are convinced really likes you. Especially that one.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:03 AM on February 6
It never fails to amaze me that so many, many people who are not prostitutes, strippers, porn actresses etc. truly think they can speak for every single one of the men and and women that are.
Fact check: Not all people in the sex industry do the same stuff, with the same sort of people, or feel the same way about what we do. And a whole bunch of us really, really hate it when people who don't understand that make bold sweeping statements about us that are patently, demonstrably and offensively false.
posted by TheTorns at 5:28 AM on February 6, 2011 [36 favorites]
Little did they know they were being blown by lady boys most of the time.
posted by tarvuz at 5:37 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by tarvuz at 5:37 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think I am bothered more by the comments here than by the article itself.
First: I have a son living in Pattaya. second: I have another son in the Israeli military.
third: my oldest son, a former marine, has often told me abut Pattaya, a tourist garden of eden, where peoples from all over the world go to enjoy the sex, and where if you do not use rubbers you are sure to get something.
My point: the focus, from a leftist Israeli paper, is upon the fact that Israeli soldiers--not directly engaged in war at this time--still suffer from what they are subject to with border patrol and check points so that they suffer from PTSD and use easy sex to unburden themselves...a break from the reality they live at home, and yet still seem to feel the need to teach about the goodness etc of Zionism.
posted by Postroad at 5:56 AM on February 6, 2011
First: I have a son living in Pattaya. second: I have another son in the Israeli military.
third: my oldest son, a former marine, has often told me abut Pattaya, a tourist garden of eden, where peoples from all over the world go to enjoy the sex, and where if you do not use rubbers you are sure to get something.
My point: the focus, from a leftist Israeli paper, is upon the fact that Israeli soldiers--not directly engaged in war at this time--still suffer from what they are subject to with border patrol and check points so that they suffer from PTSD and use easy sex to unburden themselves...a break from the reality they live at home, and yet still seem to feel the need to teach about the goodness etc of Zionism.
posted by Postroad at 5:56 AM on February 6, 2011
My search for "meatbomb sex tourist" gave 420 hits, which seems just about right.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:02 AM on February 6, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 6:02 AM on February 6, 2011 [11 favorites]
It might have been an interesting article, except for the thick layer of moralizing.
posted by DarkForest at 6:04 AM on February 6, 2011
posted by DarkForest at 6:04 AM on February 6, 2011
"The openness," Amir continued, "the humanity, the smiles of the beautiful sexy and open-minded women. It's not like the Israeli women, with their nose so far up in the air that it slaps Jumbo planes flying by in the sky."
Ah, the cry of the douchebag the world over: "Why won't these women who are my social equals let me treat them like OBJECTS? It's like they want to have preferences and needs and orgasms themselves! Don't they know they're only there to date me and do what I want?"
How does society address THIS sort of attitude, which is so pernicious, and which you hear from campus date rapists and sexual harassers and sex tourists and even the scary mass murderer guys, as well as from disaffected dudes who would never turn to violence (sexual or otherwise) but whose dating life goes badly? I mean, it even underlies the who "PUA" scene. Why do some men develop this attitude, and how does one fight it?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:04 AM on February 6, 2011 [25 favorites]
Ah, the cry of the douchebag the world over: "Why won't these women who are my social equals let me treat them like OBJECTS? It's like they want to have preferences and needs and orgasms themselves! Don't they know they're only there to date me and do what I want?"
How does society address THIS sort of attitude, which is so pernicious, and which you hear from campus date rapists and sexual harassers and sex tourists and even the scary mass murderer guys, as well as from disaffected dudes who would never turn to violence (sexual or otherwise) but whose dating life goes badly? I mean, it even underlies the who "PUA" scene. Why do some men develop this attitude, and how does one fight it?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:04 AM on February 6, 2011 [25 favorites]
Fact check: they despise you, they're just good actresses.
So we read how the men engage in self-deception about what they're doing but think prostitutes are incapable of it Is this because the men are more vile? Or the Thais are less complex?
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:16 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
So we read how the men engage in self-deception about what they're doing but think prostitutes are incapable of it Is this because the men are more vile? Or the Thais are less complex?
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:16 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Self-deception is the grease in the friction of all interactions, the rose tint on every mirror, and the secret prize at the bottom of every cereal box luring us out of bed in the morning. Even a mild deficit of it can reduce its host to shivering under the shadow of inevitable death while questioning the wisdom of so much as greeting a stranger in the street.
This is why I have developed the Psychoanalytic Bomb. Detonation over a target area renders the inhabitants incapable of self-deception for at least eighty days. Nothing could paralyze a city faster.
posted by adipocere at 6:27 AM on February 6, 2011 [11 favorites]
This is why I have developed the Psychoanalytic Bomb. Detonation over a target area renders the inhabitants incapable of self-deception for at least eighty days. Nothing could paralyze a city faster.
posted by adipocere at 6:27 AM on February 6, 2011 [11 favorites]
I'm a little uncomfortable with the overall framing of the post. There's a lot of sex tourism in Thailand, and surely Israelis aren't the bulk of the customers. They may be in this specific enclave, but I believe there are many to be found.
I'd have been happier, I think, if the post was broader. As is, it feels targeted at a specific nationality. Yes, it is in Haaretz, but I just don't see that Israeli sex tourism needs to be specifically called out as being unusual. It'd be an interesting link in a compare/contrast assortment, but on its own, it smells bad.
I'm frequently extremely critical of the policies of the state of Israel; I think modern Zionism is outright evil. But I'm having a hard time seeing anything of special interest here. Yes, perhaps their military occupation is a driving force for these specific guys to head over there, but I don't think it's a useful post without more context, something to compare and contrast against.
Sex tourism is a much larger problem, and focusing on just the Israeli customers feels arbitrary and unfair. I realize that probably wasn't the purpose of the post, but it still sets me on edge.
posted by Malor at 6:37 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'd have been happier, I think, if the post was broader. As is, it feels targeted at a specific nationality. Yes, it is in Haaretz, but I just don't see that Israeli sex tourism needs to be specifically called out as being unusual. It'd be an interesting link in a compare/contrast assortment, but on its own, it smells bad.
I'm frequently extremely critical of the policies of the state of Israel; I think modern Zionism is outright evil. But I'm having a hard time seeing anything of special interest here. Yes, perhaps their military occupation is a driving force for these specific guys to head over there, but I don't think it's a useful post without more context, something to compare and contrast against.
Sex tourism is a much larger problem, and focusing on just the Israeli customers feels arbitrary and unfair. I realize that probably wasn't the purpose of the post, but it still sets me on edge.
posted by Malor at 6:37 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
OK, that was a disgusting report.
Joe in Australia: "I did a Google search for the phrase "Israeli sex tourists". There were forty-four results, nearly half of which were for that article. Then I did a search for "American sex tourists". There were around one hundred and thirty five thousand results."
a) The US has approximately 40x the population of Israel. A disparity in the numbers is to be expected.
b) A number of the links under "American sex tourists" in that google search (especially when you scroll to the following pages are news articles discussing American girls who are being trafficked in other countries.
c) Lack of reporting on the topic does not mean it is not a problem, nor does it mean it isn't widespread. There hasn't been that much mainstream reporting on human trafficking of Russian women, for example. But Israelis certainly know that happens.
That said, this is an article in an Israeli paper, exclusively about Israeli sex tourists, mentions that there are Israeli hotels in Pattaya as well as restaurants with menus in Hebrew specifically to cater to Israelis. The latter, presumably because there is something of a demand. If this were an isolated incident -- or if the Thailand community didn't think they could attract Israeli customers, that infrastructure wouldn't exist.
posted by zarq at 6:40 AM on February 6, 2011
Joe in Australia: "I did a Google search for the phrase "Israeli sex tourists". There were forty-four results, nearly half of which were for that article. Then I did a search for "American sex tourists". There were around one hundred and thirty five thousand results."
a) The US has approximately 40x the population of Israel. A disparity in the numbers is to be expected.
b) A number of the links under "American sex tourists" in that google search (especially when you scroll to the following pages are news articles discussing American girls who are being trafficked in other countries.
c) Lack of reporting on the topic does not mean it is not a problem, nor does it mean it isn't widespread. There hasn't been that much mainstream reporting on human trafficking of Russian women, for example. But Israelis certainly know that happens.
That said, this is an article in an Israeli paper, exclusively about Israeli sex tourists, mentions that there are Israeli hotels in Pattaya as well as restaurants with menus in Hebrew specifically to cater to Israelis. The latter, presumably because there is something of a demand. If this were an isolated incident -- or if the Thailand community didn't think they could attract Israeli customers, that infrastructure wouldn't exist.
posted by zarq at 6:40 AM on February 6, 2011
The Israelis he met were not ugly or repulsive in any way.
Oh, I beg to differ.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:46 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Oh, I beg to differ.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:46 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Malor: Yes, it is in Haaretz, but I just don't see that Israeli sex tourism needs to be specifically called out as being unusual.
You seem to be mistaking "examining in a particular context" for "specifically calling out as being unusual". These are two very different things. Can show us where in the article Israeli sex tourism is called out as being unusual, besides it having an Israeli character (Which is to be expected, given that they are Israeli...)?
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 6:52 AM on February 6, 2011
You seem to be mistaking "examining in a particular context" for "specifically calling out as being unusual". These are two very different things. Can show us where in the article Israeli sex tourism is called out as being unusual, besides it having an Israeli character (Which is to be expected, given that they are Israeli...)?
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 6:52 AM on February 6, 2011
@Malor: "Sex tourism is a much larger problem, and focusing on just the Israeli customers feels arbitrary and unfair."
What was interesting to me about the post was the universality of the ideas expressed by the men. I know he's exploring a specific problem for a specific audience in an Israeli outlet and there were some interesting nuances relating to Israel, but it's the banal sameness of the problem across First World cultures that made it so horrifying to me.
IOW, I didn't read it at all as, "This is an Israeli problem" but as "This is a First World problem, here is how it manifests in Israel, which is pretty similar to how it manifests in other cultures." But for me, learning about the specific better helps me understand the universal, so I do have a mental bias there.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:54 AM on February 6, 2011
What was interesting to me about the post was the universality of the ideas expressed by the men. I know he's exploring a specific problem for a specific audience in an Israeli outlet and there were some interesting nuances relating to Israel, but it's the banal sameness of the problem across First World cultures that made it so horrifying to me.
IOW, I didn't read it at all as, "This is an Israeli problem" but as "This is a First World problem, here is how it manifests in Israel, which is pretty similar to how it manifests in other cultures." But for me, learning about the specific better helps me understand the universal, so I do have a mental bias there.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:54 AM on February 6, 2011
It never fails to amaze me that so many, many men believe that prostitutes, strippers, porn actresses, etc., truly enjoy what they do.
Fact check: they despise you, they're just good actresses. Yes, all of them, even the one you are convinced really likes you. Especially that one.
No.
IWABR (I was a brothel receptionist, and I was a masseuse before that). I've worked with girls who married regular clients (and they were local women working to support themselves at uni. It's not like they needed residency or any other "perk"). Or got engaged to the brothel's maintenance guy. Or dated one of the security guards. Hey, I worked alongside a receptionist who had a massive crush on our condom sales rep guy (yep, that's a real job). Sex work is legal where I live and the real pros have accountants (yep, there are also accountants who specialise in this stuff - there are some good tax breaks out there!) and stockbrokers and a nice nest egg waiting for when they turn 35 or 40, at which point they may very well throw a retirement party (not joking).
I find it hard to believe that the performers on kink.com hate what they do. Or pro dommes. I've known so many prostitutes, masseuses, strippers, performers who are smart, funny, educated women who ENJOY WHAT THEY DO. (The ones who do not, they don't last long. They bring down the vibe for everyone and it's best to fire them.) And why shouldn't they? You get to wear really over-the-top makeup and the nice lingerie you usually keep shoved up the back of your closet and you spend a fair bit of time on quiet nights hanging out in the staffroom watching Law and Order reruns. You get to work your own hours. Someone will usually speak whatever language you're learning at uni and you can practice with them. (Gracias, all my Colombian friends.)
Most men are not stupid pigs (which your comment pretty much implies). You would be amazed at how many guys walk into brothels and never have sex. They want a pretty lady to give them a backrub and listen to them talk about how their boss is a douche, or to sit in the spa and have a few drinks and tell you about the house they're renovating. Plenty of them do want sex or a handjob and the vast, vast majority of them are pleasant and grateful to the women who will let them have an hour or two of no-strings-attached sex. You want a dude who's a jackass, you're going to have more luck going out on the weekends and meeting some creepy Pick Up Artist wannabe. And you won't get paid for that.
Some seriously unpleasant shit happens in the sex industry. People trafficking is real and horrific. Street prostitutes have unimaginably hard, dangerous lives. Some johns are misogynist assholes who treat working women like dirt (I am not questioning the veracity of the FPP link, not at all). If you want to change this, I highly recommend you look into contributing to an outreach group rather than making sweeping generalisations on Metafilter. What you're saying here is akin to watching an episode of SVU and deciding that all men are bastards who beat their wives and thus all marriages are a sham and all women are abused. It's bullshit.
posted by jaynewould at 6:54 AM on February 6, 2011 [40 favorites]
Fact check: they despise you, they're just good actresses. Yes, all of them, even the one you are convinced really likes you. Especially that one.
No.
IWABR (I was a brothel receptionist, and I was a masseuse before that). I've worked with girls who married regular clients (and they were local women working to support themselves at uni. It's not like they needed residency or any other "perk"). Or got engaged to the brothel's maintenance guy. Or dated one of the security guards. Hey, I worked alongside a receptionist who had a massive crush on our condom sales rep guy (yep, that's a real job). Sex work is legal where I live and the real pros have accountants (yep, there are also accountants who specialise in this stuff - there are some good tax breaks out there!) and stockbrokers and a nice nest egg waiting for when they turn 35 or 40, at which point they may very well throw a retirement party (not joking).
I find it hard to believe that the performers on kink.com hate what they do. Or pro dommes. I've known so many prostitutes, masseuses, strippers, performers who are smart, funny, educated women who ENJOY WHAT THEY DO. (The ones who do not, they don't last long. They bring down the vibe for everyone and it's best to fire them.) And why shouldn't they? You get to wear really over-the-top makeup and the nice lingerie you usually keep shoved up the back of your closet and you spend a fair bit of time on quiet nights hanging out in the staffroom watching Law and Order reruns. You get to work your own hours. Someone will usually speak whatever language you're learning at uni and you can practice with them. (Gracias, all my Colombian friends.)
Most men are not stupid pigs (which your comment pretty much implies). You would be amazed at how many guys walk into brothels and never have sex. They want a pretty lady to give them a backrub and listen to them talk about how their boss is a douche, or to sit in the spa and have a few drinks and tell you about the house they're renovating. Plenty of them do want sex or a handjob and the vast, vast majority of them are pleasant and grateful to the women who will let them have an hour or two of no-strings-attached sex. You want a dude who's a jackass, you're going to have more luck going out on the weekends and meeting some creepy Pick Up Artist wannabe. And you won't get paid for that.
Some seriously unpleasant shit happens in the sex industry. People trafficking is real and horrific. Street prostitutes have unimaginably hard, dangerous lives. Some johns are misogynist assholes who treat working women like dirt (I am not questioning the veracity of the FPP link, not at all). If you want to change this, I highly recommend you look into contributing to an outreach group rather than making sweeping generalisations on Metafilter. What you're saying here is akin to watching an episode of SVU and deciding that all men are bastards who beat their wives and thus all marriages are a sham and all women are abused. It's bullshit.
posted by jaynewould at 6:54 AM on February 6, 2011 [40 favorites]
Brucker says that today there is a need to change legislation in order to prosecute men who travel to Thailand to take part in the sex trade
e.g. Asshole says there is a need to change legislation in order to prosecute people who travel to Amsterdam to take part in the drugs trade.
e.g. Jerkoff says there is a need to change legislation in order to prosecute people who travel to Central Asia and drive without seatbelts.
I think that this person should fuck off. We are not slaves to nation states.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:58 AM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
e.g. Asshole says there is a need to change legislation in order to prosecute people who travel to Amsterdam to take part in the drugs trade.
e.g. Jerkoff says there is a need to change legislation in order to prosecute people who travel to Central Asia and drive without seatbelts.
I think that this person should fuck off. We are not slaves to nation states.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:58 AM on February 6, 2011 [5 favorites]
A much better piece on Thailand can be found here by Pico Iyer.
Realistically, a certain percentage of men are going to be interested in doing this. I think the real issue, unaddressed here, is the economic conditions that force the women to this kind of work to survive.
posted by DarkForest at 6:58 AM on February 6, 2011
Realistically, a certain percentage of men are going to be interested in doing this. I think the real issue, unaddressed here, is the economic conditions that force the women to this kind of work to survive.
posted by DarkForest at 6:58 AM on February 6, 2011
Whoops, that was a long and ranty bit of derail, sorry folks. Just wanted to head off the "all sex work is like Asian sex tourism and all workers hate you" at the pass. I now return you to your scheduled Outrage At The Assholes In This Article, Holy Crap What Is Wrong With These People.
posted by jaynewould at 7:02 AM on February 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by jaynewould at 7:02 AM on February 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
@thetorns - Really? You know for a fact that I'm not, and have never been, a sex worker? Interesting. You have no idea what experience I may be speaking from.
And your profile says you're male. All you've done is prove my point. Female sex workers need men to believe they enjoy it, so that they can make a living. When you become a woman, and you have worked with literally thousands of female sex workers, then you can speak from experience. Until then, you're just falling for the fantasy.
posted by MexicanYenta at 7:12 AM on February 6, 2011
And your profile says you're male. All you've done is prove my point. Female sex workers need men to believe they enjoy it, so that they can make a living. When you become a woman, and you have worked with literally thousands of female sex workers, then you can speak from experience. Until then, you're just falling for the fantasy.
posted by MexicanYenta at 7:12 AM on February 6, 2011
"People there don't rest," he said. "They feel the need to have sex with more and more women. They don't care that they're tired, they don't listen to what their bodies are telling them."
Yaba's a hell of a drug.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:13 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yaba's a hell of a drug.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:13 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
We need sex robots. Anyone who feels the urge to engage in sexually objectifying behavior can just sex up objects instead, rather than polluting the rest of human society with their actions. Once such behavior has been largely contained and controlled (instead of the current status quo where it runs amok while we engage in endless social whack-a-mole and ineffective outraged hand-wringing), we'll have a much better ability to study, understand, and address it. With this new-found wealth of knowledge, we could then program the 'bots to go beyond mere containment protocols, and instead subtly rehabilitate any long-term users who are capable of rehab.
posted by PsychoKick at 7:16 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by PsychoKick at 7:16 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
"When we sat with Israelis and I heard them speak about the Thai women I was disgusted"acceptable norm."
That's a quote from the Brucker's girlfriend Hila. Who is an Israeli woman. And not afraid to call out her countrymen.
Maybe we could stop with the implications that there is something unseemly about this post being on Metafilter?
Man, the idea that any criticism of Israel, or even an Israeli person, treads lightly on the fingers of history is tired. And not worthy of this community. I know no one has said it directly, but there's a stink on the breeze.
posted by spitbull at 7:17 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
That's a quote from the Brucker's girlfriend Hila. Who is an Israeli woman. And not afraid to call out her countrymen.
Maybe we could stop with the implications that there is something unseemly about this post being on Metafilter?
Man, the idea that any criticism of Israel, or even an Israeli person, treads lightly on the fingers of history is tired. And not worthy of this community. I know no one has said it directly, but there's a stink on the breeze.
posted by spitbull at 7:17 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sorry, messed up the pull quote. Here it is in context:
"I was afraid that Guy would get bored, and wouldn't be able to last three months," Hila said. "It wasn't that I was afraid he would do something, but three months seemed like too long to me. When we sat with Israelis and I heard them speak about the Thai women I was disgusted. I thought it was the most vulgar thing. Later, it became apparent that this kind of talk was the acceptable norm."
posted by spitbull at 7:18 AM on February 6, 2011
"I was afraid that Guy would get bored, and wouldn't be able to last three months," Hila said. "It wasn't that I was afraid he would do something, but three months seemed like too long to me. When we sat with Israelis and I heard them speak about the Thai women I was disgusted. I thought it was the most vulgar thing. Later, it became apparent that this kind of talk was the acceptable norm."
posted by spitbull at 7:18 AM on February 6, 2011
We need sex robots.
Why just this afternoon my boyfriend mentioned he wanted a new Arduino project.
posted by jaynewould at 7:19 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Why just this afternoon my boyfriend mentioned he wanted a new Arduino project.
posted by jaynewould at 7:19 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
The "why is this article about Israelis?" mystery in this thread was totally baffling to me. Why would a Haaretz article about Israelis be any more peculiar than an article about Britons in The Guardian?
(By the way, this is a great book on the general topic of sex work.)
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:23 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
(By the way, this is a great book on the general topic of sex work.)
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:23 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yes, it is in Haaretz, but I just don't see that Israeli sex tourism needs to be specifically called out as being unusual.
It was a useful article for emailing to my parents, who, like many Russian-American Jews are strongly nationalist (about Israel), and also think Israel is populated by angels, has zero percent unemployment, and that all the boys in the IDF are misunderstood gentle souls who would much rather be studying and leading wholesome family lives and absolutely hate hate hate the horrible things the occupation has forced them to do.
In other words, to me this is useful bubble-popping and reality-revealing material
posted by tempythethird at 7:24 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
It was a useful article for emailing to my parents, who, like many Russian-American Jews are strongly nationalist (about Israel), and also think Israel is populated by angels, has zero percent unemployment, and that all the boys in the IDF are misunderstood gentle souls who would much rather be studying and leading wholesome family lives and absolutely hate hate hate the horrible things the occupation has forced them to do.
In other words, to me this is useful bubble-popping and reality-revealing material
posted by tempythethird at 7:24 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
What you're saying here is[....]
No, that's not what I'm saying. And no, I would not be amazed at how many women walk into brothels and don't want to have sex. I'm not the small town conservative hick you seem to think I am. I'm speaking from years of experience being smack in the middle of it all.
Okay, I really need to get a sock puppet account now. This is not gonna go over well with my family.
posted by MexicanYenta at 7:25 AM on February 6, 2011
No, that's not what I'm saying. And no, I would not be amazed at how many women walk into brothels and don't want to have sex. I'm not the small town conservative hick you seem to think I am. I'm speaking from years of experience being smack in the middle of it all.
Okay, I really need to get a sock puppet account now. This is not gonna go over well with my family.
posted by MexicanYenta at 7:25 AM on February 6, 2011
Brucker says that today there is a need to change legislation in order to prosecute men who travel to Thailand to take part in the sex trade, but in the meantime, it is up to women to prevent their husbands from going on such trips, or at least to tell them they are not naïve, and know the real reason they are flying to Thailand with their friends for "a two week trip to take in the sights."
Yeah. This will solve the problem!
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:25 AM on February 6, 2011
Yeah. This will solve the problem!
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:25 AM on February 6, 2011
all the things you don't do with your wife out of respect, you let yourself do here
Mkay, this is obviously some new and stupid definition of "respect" that only sad morons understand. If some poor deluded fool told me "oh baby, I respect you so much that I fly to other countries to fuck prostitutes and force them to do what I think are incredibly degrading things to me" I think I would probably staple his nuts to his face.
on preview - re: sex robots
posted by elizardbits at 7:28 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Mkay, this is obviously some new and stupid definition of "respect" that only sad morons understand. If some poor deluded fool told me "oh baby, I respect you so much that I fly to other countries to fuck prostitutes and force them to do what I think are incredibly degrading things to me" I think I would probably staple his nuts to his face.
on preview - re: sex robots
posted by elizardbits at 7:28 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah. This will solve the problem!
I don't think it would solve very much, but it would probably be more effective than trying to legislate it on the Israeli end. It looks like these guys are able to take advantage of Thailand because it's culturally acceptable for them to do so, and because there's a pretty dense layer cake of deception and self-deception about what's going on. Cut through the deception and you might shift something.
If, when men say they're going to Thailand, their wives said, "oh, so you can ear-hump prostitutes? I bet your parents will be thrilled to hear about this," men might think twice about "seeing the sights" in Pattaya.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:31 AM on February 6, 2011
I don't think it would solve very much, but it would probably be more effective than trying to legislate it on the Israeli end. It looks like these guys are able to take advantage of Thailand because it's culturally acceptable for them to do so, and because there's a pretty dense layer cake of deception and self-deception about what's going on. Cut through the deception and you might shift something.
If, when men say they're going to Thailand, their wives said, "oh, so you can ear-hump prostitutes? I bet your parents will be thrilled to hear about this," men might think twice about "seeing the sights" in Pattaya.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:31 AM on February 6, 2011
MexicanYenta, I'm not disagreeing that you have had a negative experience. I'm disagreeing with your claim that sex workers "despise you, they're just good actresses", which is not universally true. Some women think like that, and they shouldn't be in the industry, and I feel awful for them if they have no other choice. But they do not represent all sex workers.
I don't think you're a hick either. I do think that you are projecting your own experience onto the entirety of a very large, very old industry where - shock! - not everyone has lived the same experience as you.
posted by jaynewould at 7:31 AM on February 6, 2011 [7 favorites]
I don't think you're a hick either. I do think that you are projecting your own experience onto the entirety of a very large, very old industry where - shock! - not everyone has lived the same experience as you.
posted by jaynewould at 7:31 AM on February 6, 2011 [7 favorites]
But there are no results for "Palestinian sex tourists". Proving something.
This is perhaps more of a passport issue.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:34 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is perhaps more of a passport issue.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:34 AM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
What do Israeli sex tourists in Thailand really think?
They think, "What's this red blister thingy on my penis?"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:38 AM on February 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
They think, "What's this red blister thingy on my penis?"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:38 AM on February 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
What do Israeli sex tourists in Thailand really think?
They think, "What's this red blister thingy on my penis?"
There's a mixing-meat-and-cheese joke in there somewhere, but damned if I can bring myself to come up with it.
posted by jaynewould at 7:48 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
They think, "What's this red blister thingy on my penis?"
There's a mixing-meat-and-cheese joke in there somewhere, but damned if I can bring myself to come up with it.
posted by jaynewould at 7:48 AM on February 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
this is an anecdote that means nothing; just something I observed that is tangentially related to this post; not intended to be a slam on any culture/religion/ethnicity
Before I discovered the lovely world of free online porn, like any patriotic horny American female, I'd go searching for porn in magazine stores, the old fashioned way.
In Manhattan: Hard to find. I mean, I'm KNOW there are places that cater to that, but when you're searching for porn, you don't want to have to schlep around the island.
In Midwood, Brooklyn -- a neighborhood that has a lot of orthodox Jewish people, quite a few Hasidic Jewish people, and a good assortment of Muslim folks from Pakistan --
HOLY CRAP it was easy to find hard core, kink-fest porn. Obvsly, I'm porn friendly, and support legalized prostitution. So yay porn. It was just a weird juxtaposition with the community.
posted by angrycat at 7:53 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Before I discovered the lovely world of free online porn, like any patriotic horny American female, I'd go searching for porn in magazine stores, the old fashioned way.
In Manhattan: Hard to find. I mean, I'm KNOW there are places that cater to that, but when you're searching for porn, you don't want to have to schlep around the island.
In Midwood, Brooklyn -- a neighborhood that has a lot of orthodox Jewish people, quite a few Hasidic Jewish people, and a good assortment of Muslim folks from Pakistan --
HOLY CRAP it was easy to find hard core, kink-fest porn. Obvsly, I'm porn friendly, and support legalized prostitution. So yay porn. It was just a weird juxtaposition with the community.
posted by angrycat at 7:53 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
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This person seems to be more than a little out of touch with "reality" - wondrous or otherwise.
Whenever I read stuff like this I hate my sex.
posted by Decani at 3:44 AM on February 6, 2011 [9 favorites]