September 11, 2001

6:06 PM

Bush addresses the nationWhat did you think? "A silent, unyielding anger"? I was generally impressed, but would like to hear others' reactions.
posted by jewishbuddha (116 comments total)

To follow up ( I wanted to conserve space on the front page), I thought Bush's message was good with one exception. It would have been great if, when speaking of fear, he encouraged people not to let fear or emotion cloud how they deal with those around them. I'm not articulating it exactly right, but something along the lines of "don't turn on other Americans of any race or religion in this time of need." I guess that could be seen as pointing a finger or inciting people who are already suspicious, but I think anti-Arab backlash is a real concern, despite the fact that we don't even know for sure who did it.

There were lots of opportunities in the speech when he could have thrown this in-- talking about not shaking the foundation of American society, about support from other countries, about how New York pulled together, etc.

On the whole though, a good speech (in light of the circumstances).
posted by jewishbuddha at 6:24 PM on September 11, 2001

I applaud his speech writer.
posted by Nauip at 6:26 PM on September 11, 2001

It was okay (for Bush).

This is one of the times when you want a more well-spoken President to comfort you. (I.e. Ron Reagan, JFK, FDR, or even Bill Clinton.) But I'm going to avoid any Bush-bashing for today.
posted by noisemartyr at 6:39 PM on September 11, 2001

He trotted through four metaphor / simile expressions of the same concept: we are damaged but not daunted. He should have got to the point.

He also should have made explicit his insistence that the failure of any our allies to assist us in bringing down our enemies would be regarded as an act of hostility, in short, letting Saudia Arabia and Egypt know that, should organized Islamic terrorist forces be behind this, that the time has come for them to choose sides, and to endure the consequences if they choose wrongly.
posted by MattD at 6:40 PM on September 11, 2001

Immediate reactions:

1. George W. is more of a robot than Gore ever was.
2. I would not want to be the Taliban right now.
posted by o2b at 6:40 PM on September 11, 2001

not discriminating between the terrorists and those who harbor them was the best part about the speech. Although I seem to remember similar statements after the cole incident. How long do you think before we reign down firey vengance from above?
posted by outsider at 6:41 PM on September 11, 2001

Afganistan is likely to experience the wrath of the United States in the next 72 hours.

"W"'s speech was good. Get off his case, please.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:43 PM on September 11, 2001

He managed to squeeze by with only one grammatical error, but overall I was unimpressed. The speech itself
was fine - the problem is that he's an roundly unimpressive speaker, utterly unable to invest his words with sincerity or weight.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:46 PM on September 11, 2001

I can not stand the guy and so I listened only to a round up of what he said: the customary and expected: we will bring the terrorists to justice. Congress may well declare war, I have heard, and go after the Laden guy by invading Afghanistan if they don't or won't cough him up. For me, though, looking beyond the horror of it all, I could not help but reflect that this entire day shows how feeble the defense missle idea truly is. and there are still other options: bilogicals and chemical stuff brought into the country and spread about. No missle defense will be useful in any of these scenarios. After all, no nuke used. Or needed today.
posted by Postroad at 6:48 PM on September 11, 2001

I loved the part where he said we're going to punish the innocent along with the guilty.

I'm sorry, but that's not why I live in America.

The mayor's speech was much better.
posted by Ptrin at 6:54 PM on September 11, 2001

I was also a little underwhelmed. Both my wife and I turned to each other when it was over exclaiming, "That's it?" We were looking for, well, more. I wanted something more than a few platitudes but rather some meat or information about just what really happened today. Sure, I've been watching all the news and reading the net voraciously, but I didn't get the sense that there was any plan of action or the revelation of some new information that would shed further light on the day's events. When I heard Guliani speak earlier today, he sounded much more confident and reassuring. And, Ashcroft's bit an hour earlier was much more informative. But, all in all, at least he didn't seem nearly as shaken and out of his league as he did when giving his short speech in Louisiana this morning.
posted by warhol at 6:55 PM on September 11, 2001

Did you people see the same speech I saw?!? I was absolutely horrified. This "man" is an automaton. It's not necessary that he be a consummate performer, like Reagan or Clinton (although it can certainly help to convey a strong and emotional message to a concerned and grieving public), but he was EMPTY. No expression, no emotion, just a vacuous stare as he recited a programmed speech. At least when Bush the Elder got on the air to tell us why we were going to war in Kuwait, he was MAD, seething with fury. This morning, W seemed tired, and scared, and overwhelmed. Tonight, he seemed...absent. And four minutes? That's all the events of the day merited? That's all the citizens of America deserved? Pathetic. And the irony of quoting and appealing to the bible and Christian beliefs in light of the motivations of the (presumed) perpetrators was palpable.

I grow more concerned about how this will be handled by the current government by the hour.
posted by rushmc at 6:57 PM on September 11, 2001

What a blown opportunity. If he'd nailed this speech he'd go down in history. The situation calls for a "win one for the Gipper" or "Day of Infamy" caliber speech and instead we got a wooden infomercial. And I don't mean that in any partisan way - Bill Clinton's speech after Oklahoma City was a little underwhelming, too. I guess he was saving it all for later.
posted by stevis at 7:00 PM on September 11, 2001

The best and most critical part was where he said that governments who shelter terrorists will be treated the same as terrorists. I hope he follows through on that threat. If he doesn't, we can expect more of the horror we saw today.
posted by mw at 7:15 PM on September 11, 2001

the speech is *okay* except fot this:

"America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world. And no one will keep that light from shining."

is anyone else sick of platitudes? america was targeted either in response to specific actions or because of our economic and military might. can't we just call it what it is?
posted by rebeccablood at 7:18 PM on September 11, 2001

i agree. his speech wasn't very inspiring, it was more programmed than i was hoping for and full of useless metaphors and crap that you know he didn't write. i have a real problem with this... why isn't our president capable of writing his own speeches??? my honest reaction to his speech was -- if i grew up in the country responsible for this and saw this guy speak as a representative of america, i would loath america too. i've seen more sincerity from mr rogers. at least bin laden has a brain. i just hope the puppetmasters in washington make some good decisions in the near future.

and all these religious references he makes have got to stop. it is insulting, inconsiderate and not representative of the country as a whole.
posted by ggggarret at 7:18 PM on September 11, 2001

Fuck it. Walk softly, carry a big stick.
posted by adampsyche at 7:19 PM on September 11, 2001

He sure didn't say much or speak for very long..
posted by valerie at 7:22 PM on September 11, 2001

To preempt the Bush supporters: the role of a President, more than anything else, is to be a leader, one who can inspire a nation in a time of crisis. Who could forget FDR? Or Churchilll's steel during the Blitz?

GWB is severely lacking in that quality: conveying leadership. I walked away from the speech utterly unconvinced that he cared at all.

Crazy, but I would have been much more reassured if Cheney had given the speech.
posted by solistrato at 7:24 PM on September 11, 2001

The question is whether or not Bush will be active, and get out there and kick some asses (proverbially, of course) or sit back and tell everyone not to panic, patting america on it's back @ every chance he gets. I'm afraid he might just make the threats and not carry through. That would be doubleplusreallyfuckingbad. it would show that america and it's president are just pussies that talk big. We're not (are we?!)

I wish we had a president who would get up there, no written speech, bang on the podium, etc. Right off the cuff. "America was targeted for attack... ...shining" will never be remembered. He's not walking softly, he doesn't seem to be carrying much at all. Bush blew his chance to be great. He blew his chance to be a great president. He gets 0 respect from me now.

I'm just mad that he's so uninspiring and gennerally not the type of person I would want to be lead by.

What we need now is not a politician, but a Leader!
posted by fuq at 7:35 PM on September 11, 2001

RE: Not wanting to be Taliban right now...

The shitstorm about to be brought down upon the bad guys is going to be fucking unbelievable, folks. The destructive 8 year old boy in me is downright giddy with fear and anticipation...
posted by glenwood at 7:35 PM on September 11, 2001

What spooked me is that every time he spoke today, he dropped christian references. Code words to his Fundamentalist Christian constituents? Or the beginning of a War Against Islamic Fundamentalists?

But the timing of it all... not the least of which is that the markets were just hanging on the brink of another big slide the day before...and now this
posted by BentPenguin at 7:35 PM on September 11, 2001

Maybe we should have gotten Clinton to make the speech? I'm not going to post how much I dislike Bush because I don't want to get a hate-riot going, but he could have at least pretended to care.
posted by Katy Action at 7:37 PM on September 11, 2001

I suspect when we actually know who did this he, and the government, will have much more to say. It's hard to go out and be supremely inspiring when you really have no idea who did something to you.

Keep your chins up...
posted by aschulak at 7:39 PM on September 11, 2001

The story of the Bush presidency will ultimately be: "he wasn't as terrible as I thought he was going to be". That's how I feel about his speech tonight.

I had low expectations, and he performed adequately. In times of tragedy it pays to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I tried to imagine the enormity of the job he had to perform tonight, and the large number of different audiences he had to reach.

Still, as Solistrato reminds us, it would be so much more reassuring if we had a leader, such as Roosevelt or Churchill, who could convey a sense of solid leadership. Neither Bush nor his speechwriters could do that tonight.
posted by dweingart at 7:39 PM on September 11, 2001

What was that Psalm shit about? With all apologies to the bible thumpers among us, what ever happened to the separation of church and state?
posted by spilon at 7:39 PM on September 11, 2001

Just what the FUCK is "representative of the country as a whole"? Absolutely nothing. Someone, somewhere, can find fault with everything.

Furthermore, I agree that Bush can sometimes come off as "practiced" or "rehearsed"...and it's obviously true that he has speech writers. Do you really want your president sitting around on a day such as this penning statements and metaphors? Or do you want him to be making plans or response, plans to deal with the situation?

Also, can you imagine the weight which fell on President Bush's statements tonight? What if he were to interject too much personal feeling, anger, resentment, or any other host of emotions? Imagine Dan Rather being forced to give such an "off the cuff" speech...

Any president's speeches would be scripted and well planned in this situation, as well as generally uninformative. The federal government and the president are held up to standards of scrutiny far higher than local and network news media----that is why Bush's statements were without significant facts. The thing only happened less than 12 hours before his speech...the government is far too busy taking care of other things to waste the world's time speculating about those responsible, the number killed, and "what the crash sounded like".

I wish you Bush-bashers would learn some moderation and impartiality.
posted by canoeguide at 7:43 PM on September 11, 2001

What was that Psalm shit about? With all apologies to the bible thumpers among us, what ever happened to the separation of church and state?

the bible just happens to have some good quotables sometimes...
posted by lotsofno at 7:44 PM on September 11, 2001

My Judgements:

- The speech didn't calm anyone down
- The speech didn't mention that we needed to remember that all Americans are American, and that we can't single out Arab-Americans or even know that Arabs did this
- He didn't express disgust at the Jihad and Hamas who expressed no condolences
- He didn't mention that we needed financial restraint in this time when the worlds markets are in dire straits
- He didn't say that our civil liberties would be protected, no matter the cost
- He didn't say that America's govt. is level-headed and would not do anything to harm the innocent in other countries, though we would use all of our power to rein in the perpetrators
- Unlike Guiliani and Pataki, he didn't convince me that he believed anything he was saying.

I'm independent politically, so from an unbiased perspective, I'm *much* more worried about what he didn't say that happy with what he did.
posted by Kevs at 7:46 PM on September 11, 2001

I didn't vote for him and I have been unimpressed so far with his performance. But today's speech I can at least understand.

Unlike FDR or Churchill, we have no idea who is responsible for this attack on US soil. There is NO ONE to which we can deliver our swift vengeance. Today's speech was calculated attempt to present the nation with calm government that will continue to function when the sun rises tomorrow.

It is therefore not surprising that his address was not full of fire and brimstone, but of calm, composed (even if he muffed a few sentences) leadership.

I would also not be surprised that once the identity of the mastermind behind this attack is discovered, we WILL get the the kind of rhetoric used by FDR and Churchill to bring the nation to a war footing, and to exact vengeance.

I will also note that when he mentioned that nation states harboring terrorists would be treated as terrorists, he did not stutter, and his eyes betrayed some emotion.

I may not like the man, but he was given the responsibility through our democratic electoral process and we must support the office which he represents.

Just something to throw in.
posted by linux at 7:46 PM on September 11, 2001

is anyone else sick of platitudes? america was targeted either in response to specific actions or because of our economic and military might.

My god Rebecca, do you dislike America that much? We most definitely have skeletons in our closet but do you really feel this would be the best time for the leader of our country chastising past transgressions? Come on.
posted by owillis at 7:46 PM on September 11, 2001

Exactly Linux...thanks for the dose of common sense that other obviously lack.
posted by canoeguide at 7:48 PM on September 11, 2001

I love this country. I also dislike obvious untruth. he could have chosen something to say that wasn;t patently false. america does not need to to be spoonfed right now; it needs to be comforted and even more than that, led.
posted by rebeccablood at 7:50 PM on September 11, 2001

Tired, overworked metaphors. Speeches of resistance deal in the all-too-tangible. (Churchill: "blood, toil, sweat and tears.") Although there's an irony in quoting from a psalm of human resiliance when people are screaming at you to behave like the Old Testament God. Anyway, Giuliani had shitloads of gravitas today.
posted by holgate at 7:51 PM on September 11, 2001

I was very disappointed with the speech, but it is the best we can expect from W. We need an inspirational leader to come forward and speak to the nation.
posted by fleener at 7:52 PM on September 11, 2001

based on today, I would vote for Giuliani and Sen Biden in a second.
posted by rebeccablood at 7:52 PM on September 11, 2001

What was that Psalm shit about? With all apologies to the bible thumpers among us, what ever happened to the separation of church and state?


Oh cut the the guy some slack. Geeez EVERY president uses Christianity's quotable quotables in their speeches.
posted by glenwood at 7:52 PM on September 11, 2001

Separation of church and state hardly means that officials cannot quote the most read/published/owned/translated book in the world. Get a Fucking Grip on reality.
posted by canoeguide at 8:02 PM on September 11, 2001

I can see Rebecca's point -- platitudes are worthless if there's no feeling there.

And to reiterate, he definetly should have made it clear that our civil liberties would not be short-circuited to prevent these kinds of things in the future. If we start giving up personal freedoms, we've well and truly lost (the only person I saw who said something along these lines today was Senator Biden (seems a little weird coming from a guy who supports initiatives to lock everyone in prisons for any offense, but I gotta give him some credit)).
posted by Kikkoman at 8:02 PM on September 11, 2001

I found the bible quote inappropriate because of the potential for backlash against American citizens of Middle East descent. e.g., the leader of our country is quoting a Christian god... meanwhile terrorists are routinely referenced by Big Media in conjunction with the Islam religion (as if Islam is somehow an evil religion).
posted by fleener at 8:06 PM on September 11, 2001

I love this country. I also dislike obvious untruth. he could have chosen something to say that wasn;t patently false. america does not need to to be spoonfed right now; it needs to be comforted and even more than that, led.

Bravo.
posted by rushmc at 8:07 PM on September 11, 2001

And to reiterate, he definetly should have made it clear that our civil liberties would not be short-circuited to prevent these kinds of things in the future.

Why would he do that if he doesn't believe it?
posted by rushmc at 8:09 PM on September 11, 2001

I watched the speech with 100+ fellow employees.

They (and I) were underwhelmed, to say the least.

Bush is a weak link and he proves it everytime he opens his mouth.

The man is just too manufactured.

Everything he said was straight out of Focus Group 101.

He should have simply stated what we know, asked for support, instructed people not to panic and spoke from the heart.

He wasted most of the time setting up the story like a AP reporter and then, for good measure, threw in the Jesus card at the end.

I know any President would do that, but it was still lame and a dodge from saying anything with substance.
posted by BarneyFifesBullet at 8:12 PM on September 11, 2001

I think if the politicians have their way we are heading for the endgame for civilization. It may not happen quickly, although events are now beginning to spin out of reasonable control. I understand why this has happened; our government has had the blood of too many Arab children on our hands for too long. For too long we've simply changed the channel when the violence in the Mideast entered our living rooms. NOW THERE IS NO CHANGING THE CHANNEL AMERICA. The chickens have come home to roost, and of course the innocent will suffer as they have forever in time.

I would only hope that we may finally try to find an end to the conflict in the Mideast rather than side with the so-called democracy Israel. I would hope all of us that are tired of being used by our governments take to the streets worldwide in a showing of peace and solidarity and mourning for ALL those who have suffered and died because of the indifference of governments.This is my prayer, for otherwise I see little hope left for humanity. I'd hate to think Nostradamus was right...
posted by rickyz at 8:13 PM on September 11, 2001

I think if the politicians have their way we are heading for the endgame for civilization.

Could we take it a little more over the top, please? :::rolls eyes:::
posted by rushmc at 8:18 PM on September 11, 2001

I too wish Bush could have shown a little more emotion. To his credit I think he did a decent job with the delivery, although it was quite wooden.

I think it is important for the government to keep things calm at this stage, especially without knowledge of the perpetrator(s). While I haven't seen any price gouging yet here in Mississippi, there are certainly some silly people in the lines.

My favorite part? Something I've been thinking all along: Those who harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves.

Favorite non-Bush? General Stormin' Norman is downright PISSED! Tom Brokaw interviewed him and at the end of the interview the General asked if he could say something... can't find the transcript yet but it was something like "we need to get these bastards!". ShitStorm ON!
posted by campy at 8:18 PM on September 11, 2001

canoeguide - Did you know that there are several brands on the market right now that are just as tasty as the original, yet are also caffeine free? Switching might do you a world of good. :)

We're merely discussing our impressions of W's speech. You're the only one using F*ck in every post and replying to others' observations with rancor, rather than reflection and reason.
posted by stevis at 8:18 PM on September 11, 2001

NOW THERE IS NO CHANGING THE CHANNEL AMERICA.

As my girlfriend said on the phone tonight, "You see things like this in other countries..."
And as I said, "never on such an awful scale."

Welcome to the cruel, cruel world.
posted by holgate at 8:21 PM on September 11, 2001

"- The speech didn't mention that we needed to remember that all Americans are American, and that we can't single out Arab-Americans or even know that Arabs did this.......
.........- He didn't say that America's govt. is level-headed and would not do anything to harm the innocent in other countries, though we would use all of our power to rein in the perpetrators...."

I've been saying almost that exact same thing in all my posts about this in the past hour, and I was labeled an "idiot" (in my opinion). No one knows yet who did this, and blaming one race or country would be stupid. If the terrorists that did this were Arabs, we shouldn't go out and bomb Arabia; we need to know the whole story. What if the "Arabs" were in some radical hate group?

As for the American Government being level-headed, in times like this, they're usually anything but level-headed.
posted by Katy Action at 8:21 PM on September 11, 2001

W quoted from the Book of Psalms.

The Book of Psalms is shared by all three major monotheistic religions. People seem to forget that the Old Testament is the base for Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

The only people he has isolated are the practicing Hindi and Buddhists of Asia, who, I'm sure, took no offense.

Every president has used rhetoric and biblical quotation in their speeches. We as the internet elite tend to be a rowdy intelligentsia that forgets the majority of America finds such speeches comforting. We have spent a lot of time trawling through forums and arguing our positions - and therefore recognize the tools of oration.

Why can't you stop brandishing your cynical intellect for once and recognize that the nation needs to stand united behind its government?
posted by linux at 8:23 PM on September 11, 2001

stevis(look I can use bold too) Oh...sorry didn't mean to offend. You've obviously never heard that word used before for emphasis.

I really don't see where my posts displayed a lack of "reflection and reason". I was merely trying to bring this discussion a little bit back to center...it's been said before, but now I realize that mefi definitely slants to the left.

Fact: The Bible is the most read/published/owned/translated book in the history of mankind.

Fact: Quoting it does not equal the destruction of separation of church and state.

Fact: Several in this thread have chastised Bush for making "religious" statements.

As I said Get a Fucking Grip.
posted by canoeguide at 8:31 PM on September 11, 2001

I (heart) Linux.
posted by canoeguide at 8:36 PM on September 11, 2001

This government stinks. We have more enemies than any other nation. Read 'The People's History of the US' for an introduction to the original state-sponsored terrorists of the world. If our government really cared about us they wouldn't spend money propping up gangster governments like Israel and instead try to feed and house and educate its citizenry(such a far-fetched ideal).

Most Americans are good people, but when we let our government do the dirty deeds they've done over the years we are guilty by omission. To those that think this doesn't compare to what happens in Gaza, try to understand they have been suffering for GENERATIONS.

Lastly I am not an apologist for terrorists. But understanding is the key to solving this problem, not an eye for an eye. If the idea that our government is heading the world to a tragic climax is being dramatic, it's done for effect. The stakes are high, not just our way of life but that of humanity. Peace to all.
posted by rickyz at 8:39 PM on September 11, 2001

rushmc: you must have a vast vocabulary. If you were "absolutely horrified" by W's speech, what transcendant word must you have in your arsenal to describe your reaction to this morning's events? Talk about over the top...
posted by gazingus at 8:47 PM on September 11, 2001

canoeguide - Just what the FUCK is "representative of the country as a whole"? Absolutely nothing. Someone, somewhere, can find fault with everything.

well... the whole country, all of us, respectively... by not singling out any one particular group... by saying something that is so exclusive. it's bad enough that we have an us vs. them attitude about the situation but to start picking religious sides is just rude. and yes, it is rude and insulting to every single american who does not have the same religious views as the president for him to be representing only a portion of the population. he could have given the exact same speech and left out all the religious overtones and it would have been just as... err... effective. i shouldn't have to explain this point any more, it is quite obvious.

"America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world. And no one will keep that light from shining." ---
and i agree with rebecca, why in the world is this guy taking a moment like this (when we need lots of allies and cooperation from other countries) to belittle them??? ridiculous. bush might as well call people "poo-poo heads" and take their lunch money b/c that comment came straight from the playground. and then the ending part... *puke*.

huey p long was turning in his grave.
posted by ggggarret at 8:53 PM on September 11, 2001

Two years ago, about three weeks before graduation, I woke up one morning to hear that the front page of the papers was running a story about the dean of my school. The story was that the dean had been fired 4 months before because he had a crapload of porn on his computer. The school I attended was a divinity school, and the dean was (and still is) a minister. We (as students) were hearing this for the first time and were horrified. The press were everywhere. We were embarrassed, and didn't know what to do. I bring this up because of this issue of leadership...

That day, the interim dean of the school called a meeting for the students. That man was (and is) a catholic priest. He called us together (all embarrassed, curious, outraged, livid) and managed to calm us all down. He gave us a stragedy. He gave us goals. He made us feel safe, he told us what he knew. He made us feel that he was batting for us, that he would do everything he could for us, to let us feel proud at our own graduation, because he cared about us. He listened to our gripes, even when they were rude and unfair. He accepted all of it, as legitimate reactions. He made us feel heard. And he cared about our right to know what was going on, and our right to be outraged. We all ended that day calmed down, peaceful, part of the process, and adoring the dean. I even went up afterward to thank him.

The role of good leadership can't be underestimated. I'm sorry Bush didn't live up to his role. I missed the speech, but I feel the disappointment.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:58 PM on September 11, 2001

I give up. Maybe you missed Linux's statement:

The Book of Psalms is shared by all three major monotheistic religions. People seem to forget that the Old Testament is the base for Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.
.

What don't you understand ggggarret?
posted by canoeguide at 9:01 PM on September 11, 2001

Why can't you stop brandishing your cynical intellect for once and recognize that the nation needs to stand united behind its government?

Rather recognize that both Ashcroft and Bush's vision of American includes the thinning the of line between government and religion which is the exact criticism we give about these Islamic nations that harbor terrorists. If there was a time to appreciate secularism its now.
posted by skallas at 9:08 PM on September 11, 2001

guess what... i don't belong to any of those religions... and guess what else... they aren't the only religions in the world... and guess what else... i'm an american... and guess what else... there are other americans, many others, who also don't belong to any of those religions.

this is a country of great diversity and should not be represented by a single religious belief and especially not at a time when the terrorist acts might be religiously motivated. why alienate people even more?

please explain what we ALL (as a whole nation full of diverse beliefs) gained from his slanted statements? and why they were so neccessary.
posted by ggggarret at 9:14 PM on September 11, 2001

"Fact: The Bible is the most read/published/owned/translated book in the history of mankind."

You left out "interpreted" there Canoe. Three people, of the same religion, from the same community, who attend the same church can all read the same verse from the Bible, and they'll all three come back with different meanings of that verse. Why is that?
posted by Katy Action at 9:17 PM on September 11, 2001

rushmc: you must have a vast vocabulary. If you were "absolutely horrified" by W's speech...

My horror was not at his poor rhetoric or his lousy speechwriters. Rather, it was at his seemingly utter disconnectedness from what he was saying, from his role as leader, and from the needs of the public he was allegedly elected to serve. And since he will be spearheading this nation's response to this morning's events and, therefore, has the power to have a MUCH, MUCH larger negative impact on our lives and the world than what happened this morning, I find my characterization of my reaction perfectly understandable and fail to fathom your complain.
posted by rushmc at 9:17 PM on September 11, 2001

If there was a time to appreciate secularism its now.

Amen.
posted by rushmc at 9:18 PM on September 11, 2001

What did you say when you first heard/saw/learned about this.

Oh.My.God

I am done.
posted by canoeguide at 9:23 PM on September 11, 2001

My horror was not at his poor rhetoric or his lousy speechwriters. Rather, it was at his seemingly utter disconnectedness from what he was saying, from his role as leader, and from the needs of the public he was allegedly elected to serve. And since he will be spearheading this nation's response to this morning's events and, therefore, has the power to have a MUCH, MUCH larger negative impact on our lives and the world than what happened this morning, I find my characterization of my reaction perfectly understandable and fail to fathom your complain.

Actually, he's just the President. He may be a lame speaker. He may not be emotive or brilliant, but he has advisers, and they have advisers. He doesn't make or break anything; no President does. Grow up.
posted by ParisParamus at 9:24 PM on September 11, 2001

rushmc: no complaint. I just found your choice of words to be a bit hyperbolic. Nevertheless, point taken. I hope your fears are not realized.
posted by gazingus at 9:29 PM on September 11, 2001

The problem with the speech is that I don't think it was really intended for Americans. The principal message seemed to be aimed at terrorists. You failed; the country is going to continue running. Secondarily, the message was aimed at Afghanistan. That is give up the terrorist or we're going to bomb you into oblivion.

Despite all the platitudes (and that is all they were), America was an afterthought in that speech, and I don't think that's what we needed tonight. I was getting kind of sick of the new outlets I was watching making a big deal of Bush going to SAC instead of DC as though it could possibly matter in the slightest where he was. That speech though was a let down. There will be plenty of time for righteous indignation in the days that follow. Tonight we needed a leader that would motivate us towards more positive feelings, and we didn’t get that.
posted by willnot at 9:33 PM on September 11, 2001

"OH MY GOD" is a learned expression just as is "holy shit" or "fuck" or "smurf"... it has nothing to do with religious beliefs. i bet you also say "ouch" when you get hurt... is there any reason or have you just heard it your entire life? be done... i think you were done the first time you opened your mouth.

An amazingly ignorant statement. A quote from the Testament, and one hardly offensive. Why the hell are you so anti-God? Get some therapy to understand why it angers you so much that religion is an intergral part of most people's life, despite no one forcing YOU to be religious.

i'm not against people having religious beliefs, i'm against them being shoved down my throat at every turn. he could have left all that stuff out and made a wonderful speech all the same. i'm not forcing you to be non-religious, i'm just asking you to be respectful of other people's non-beliefs and it's as easy as having a president who doesn't quote the bible. if i wanted to hear people quote the bible, i would have gone to church.
posted by ggggarret at 9:34 PM on September 11, 2001

What don't you understand ggggarret?

Perhaps you don't realize that not everybody in America falls under these categories (christianity, islam, judaism).
posted by jnthnjng at 9:36 PM on September 11, 2001

Secondarily, the message was aimed at Afghanistan. That is give up the terrorist or we're going to bomb you into oblivion.


Does anyone seriously think bin laden and his group, if being the responsible party, would stay holed up in Afghanistan? After something like this its life on the run.

Sadly, I can easily see an aggressive anti-afghan campaign resulting in nothing but punishing the taliban for past actions. Granted, its hard to respect the taliban in general but if their boy and his followers aren't home even a full scale war wouldn't make a difference.
posted by skallas at 9:43 PM on September 11, 2001

wow this thread moves fast :)
By the way, in theory Islam accepts the old testament, but not necessarily in the form that christianity accepts as the holy bible. Muslims believe that the christian bible has been distorted from its original truth.
posted by jnthnjng at 9:43 PM on September 11, 2001

For those who missed the actual address, it has been posted on CNN.
posted by jewishbuddha at 9:56 PM on September 11, 2001

The text quoted from the Psalms in W's speech was such that it cannot be interpreted strictly as a religious statement. Whatever the case, the point is that "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil."

The intent was to show that the United States, as a nation, will face tragedy head on. It is not an in your face remark that Christianity will whoop some Islamic ass.

A secularist can also interpret the Bible or Quran or the Tao of Pooh as much as anyone else. Many would take Genesis tale not as literal truth but as an abstract symbol of the creation of the universe.

I personally find many books in the old and new testaments as primers in living in and maintaining a civilized society. Be good to your neighbor, respect human life, etc. etc. Does this make me Christian or Islamic or Jewish?

Who is pigeonholing and trying to shove religion down my throat? Take the intent of the message for what it is worth.

And God Bless America.

You may replace God Bless with your own words. I use it as a representation of my love for what this country means to me: a commitment to strive for peace and prosperity and freedom.
posted by linux at 9:58 PM on September 11, 2001

Ya know..
We wouldn't be in such a position if Clinton hadn't dismantled our spy network.
posted by crackheadmatt at 10:00 PM on September 11, 2001

linux - i agree. you can replace 'god bless' with lots of other things and it can mean many things to many people but i think it is intended to 'make a connection' with a targeted sector of society - the religious sector - and pull us together as "one nation, under god"...

long live america!

what's wrong with that statement? it doesn't offend anyone who supports america and it doesn't have any religious undertones. i just don't think that the intertwinning of religious terminology in political statements can be justified - and definitely doesn't represent ALL americans.
posted by ggggarret at 10:11 PM on September 11, 2001

86.2% of Americans "Christian". I'm all for diversity, and respect for differing beliefs, and as a matter of fact, am a registered democrat, but I cannot accept the fact that we are only muddying our tremendous bureaucracy by "making every minority the majority". We cannot cow-tow to every differing belief, race, religion, skin color, etc.

This just doesn't work, and was not the attitude that this country was founded upon. Free, democratic societies, promote freedom on all levels, not censorship. I will not censor my beliefs because 13.8% of Americans believe something else. I do not expect my president to do so either. We as a collective society elected him. Not you, not I, but WE.

You are free to believe anything you would like. You are free to say what you like, free to vote for the next atheist that runs for public office, free to speak of your beliefs in whatever forum you chose to. I don't have to listen, but I don't wish to silence you either. I would not be making the kinds of religiously charged statements against a president who quoted ANY theological work, as you have. In doing so, you are promoting censorship, not freedom.

Make ANY quote with obvious context, and I will listen... or shut up. As Linux stated, it was not a particularly "Christian" or even religious quote...it was simply a well known statement that beautifully symbolized:

1. America will go on.
2. WE cannot fear evil, even in times of strife.

Ironically, this quote Bush made, was the one point of his speech which did offer comfort to Americans...which did display what the future holds... something which several of you were complaining about an absence of. You obviously were too busy being offended for no reason, to take notice.

I see no good to come from tearing apart a president and his country's major religious beliefs, by attacking a President who quotes the Bible or uses the word "prayer".

Apparently some of you do not believe in God (in any form), religion, or America. What do you believe in? Yourselves?
posted by canoeguide at 10:11 PM on September 11, 2001

Regarding the debate about using the Psalm quotes...

I'll admit I was more flip than I needed to be in my comments above, however the sentiment behind them remains unchanged. Each of Dubya's three speeches today contained little more than scripted platitudes and Christian scripture. Nearly every elected officicial I heard speak today -- from McCain to Guiliani to Hillary to that freakazoid Dracula Warren Christopher dude to our own lame ass Mafioso Mayor of Atlanta Bill Campbell -- came across far better than GWB. He was a deer caught in headlights. Understandable to a degree, but he should do better than just fall back on warmed over Bible crap in lieu of having anything real to say. I'm sorry folks -- dig the Bible all you want, I don't care. Worship pickles if it gets you off, just don't force it on the rest of us, and don't expect it to take the place of actual intelligence and leadership.
posted by spilon at 10:18 PM on September 11, 2001

Okay, I think dubya is an idiot, granted, and have been very unhappy with his presidency, and actually didn't expect much from his speech - but I heard it on NPR on the drive home, and was amazed that - A) I thought he did an okay job with it, and B) there were moments that actually moved me a bit.

Funny enough, I saw parts of it replayed on TV later, and my impression changed completely - I was no longer impressed at all. I guess dubya has a "face for radio".

It was nice, for a brief time at least, to feel good about our pres again.
posted by kokogiak at 10:31 PM on September 11, 2001

*shudder* religion is so twisted.

i think the majority of that 86.2% are just products of their environment - produced by untold years of religious propoganda. spiritual drones that have chosen a well trodden path of 'enlightenment' in an attempt to understand themselves.

now before you freak out, i want to make sure you understand that i have no way of debunking the notion of god (very convenient) and i don't think that people are stupid for believing in a god. i have much respect for someone who has honestly personally concluded these things for themselves rather than reading it in a book but unfortunately this is not usually the case. fear brings people to religion, fear drives religion - they are one in the same.

as for bush's use of religious statements in his political speaches - i still think it's uncalled for. what you are saying is that he has no commitment to anyone other than the christians of this country b/c they are the majority and the religious views of the rest aren't enough to swing a vote so they don't count. i guess that policy works well for race and sex too? besides the fact that the heart of the issue in the middle east that has been driving this whole bloody affair for so long is totally religious and the last thing we need to do is create more religious differences between us and the other nations of the world. let's just widen the gap... hell, let's just call this "operation crusade" as we trot off to destroy the EVIL and vanquish satan's forces from eden.
posted by ggggarret at 10:31 PM on September 11, 2001

Looks like I got here late.

Instead of harping on partisan politics or religion, I just wanna just tell what I was doing when I heard about this shit. I woke up at 11:40 PST (being a good unemployed student) turned on NPR and started reading the NYT (which is how I start every morning). Their website was messed up. I just groggily figured some hackers had gotten to it and the site was either disfigured or being repaired. After a minute, I realized that the picture of the WTC on fire was awfully realistic.

Then I actually read the headlines and realized what NPR was saying. For the next three hours I was a slack-jawed mother. I felt punchdrunk. Shell-shocked. In fact, I still can't really believe it.

Anyway, after confirming that my DC relatives and friends were alive (except for one Pentagon worker who I can't account for) and reading/watching coverage of the situation, I think that the government folks have handled everything okay. I mean, what can you expect at this point? This is an unprecedented event in American history (including the Pearl Harbor references). We, the regular American public, don't even know who is responsible for these attacks.

When the time comes though, I am all for an eye for an eye. Understanding, education, and all that feel-good stuff has its place and until now we've done a piss-poor job of using these techniques to their full potential. But now is the time for justice and violent retribution to those who committed these crimes.

It's strange. I hate jingoism and unthinking patriotism, but after this I feel like more like an "American" for the first time in a long time. I just hope that our freedom and civil liberties don't suffer too much in the years ahead. That would confirm everything that those partying Palestinians think about our country.
posted by estopped at 10:32 PM on September 11, 2001

We cannot cow-tow to every differing belief, race, religion, skin color, etc.


That's one of the main reasons why separation of church and state is such a great ideal. Some people see Christianity's presence in politics as defeating this ideal. Especially considering Bush's plans for a faith-based America.

Quotes like these come up all the time and as much as I'd rather not hear it I do accept it as our cultural language especially in the "get all the votes at all costs" in democratic politics. I don't agree with claiming this country belongs to Christians as it makes us look just as ignorant and intolerant as those Islamic fundamentalists we're currently roasting.

Apparently some of you do not believe in God (in any form), religion, or America. What do you believe in? Yourselves?

What difference does it make? You should be more concerned with secularism than demanding we label ourselves.
posted by skallas at 10:36 PM on September 11, 2001

He doesn't make or break anything; no President does.

Your ignorance of history--not to mention politics--destroys any credibility you may have once had.
posted by rushmc at 10:37 PM on September 11, 2001

While I was disappointed with his speech, I feel that he did (to quote an earlier post I can no longer find) that he did an "adequate" job. The primary issues not addressed that I am worried about include not specifically stating that all Arabs or Islamics are not the same -- I worry that the ignorant will behave inappropriately. Also, his failure to assure America that civil liberties will not be stripped away. The "rally 'round the [flag|chief]" effect will certainly give him the capability, and we can onnly hope that he has enough self-control and dignity to refrain from anything too foolish.
posted by j.edwards at 10:51 PM on September 11, 2001

ggggarret-- I appreciate the first few paragraphs of your last post, and/but I don't mean to say that Bush or the government should turn it's backs on the minorities...in no way. As others have stated...IF you believe in secular religion, this is a time for faith and prayer, in any form. I find it very respectful that we have a President who is not afraid to reference that. How could he have done it in a more benign way? I know not how. The quote he made can be perceived on many levels...for some it meant a reference to their chosen faith...for others it meant just what it said...no more. Using a quote with multiple interpretations, to me, was brilliant.

I respect your opinion. I'm just saddened that you cannot move beyond the religious aspect of it, for it needn't be taken in such a manner.

Assuming that the majority of Christians blindly believe in what they do, is not only dangerous, but downright disrespectful of those who really do believe "for the right reasons". I was raised "non-denominational" Christian...and have moved away from those beliefs, if only to critically examine them. I now find myself moving back toward them. In fact, I do not see how someone can "have faith" if they have never questioned such "faith" if only in their own mind.

"He hath a good judgement that relieth not wholly on his own." - Thomas Fuller

Moderation folks. Moderation.
posted by canoeguide at 10:58 PM on September 11, 2001

It is probably a good guess that 86% of America is not on this forum or any other internet forum.

That kind of puts a bias on this entire discussion, placing it squarely on the "intellegent white collar elite." We are so quick to demand that our rights for secularity and not to have religion shoved in our face it is already a knee-jerk reaction for us.

We are the minority when it comes to speeches like this, so I am not at all surprised at the criticisms on this thread.

I would hope we all agree, however, that the intended message of his speech was understood -- and fully in line with our own sentiments concerning this tragic loss of human life.

That said, on with our little discussion. Well, you go on. I'm pretty much tired of it as at this point it's going in circles.
posted by linux at 11:00 PM on September 11, 2001

I'm agreeing with linux and want to say that everyone who has been using this as an opportunity to score political points has been reduced to "slime" in my esteem.

You know who you are, and shame.
posted by marknau at 11:02 PM on September 11, 2001

I'm agreeing with linux and want to say that everyone who has been using this as an opportunity to score political points has been reduced to "slime" in my esteem.

You know who you are, and shame.

Amen brother.
posted by estopped at 11:06 PM on September 11, 2001

We wouldn't be in such a position if Clinton hadn't dismantled our spy network.

crackheadmatt: you are a sad asshole troll.

beware of posters who think it's cool to turn depraved, evil activity into a their "cool" personae.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:21 PM on September 11, 2001

I'm agreeing with linux and want to say that everyone who has been using this as an opportunity to score political points has been reduced to "slime" in my esteem.

Did any of you see some of the Fox News coverage today?

It was INCREDIBLE, they even took time to give Newt the mike for some Clinton bashing.

Yeah, they're real "balanced" over there.

BTW, they failed to explain why the bombers waited untill Bush was in office.

Re: speech ......he did an "adequate" job.

That's the story of George Bush's life, just doing enough to get by.
posted by BarneyFifesBullet at 11:44 PM on September 11, 2001

I notice that the people with a harsh reaction to this speech also have, shall we say, a great deal of Shrub-related baggage. Most other people seem to have more accurate reactions - that it was the sort of lackluster but adequate effort we get after every disaster (were Clinton's comments after things like OKC or Columbine really any more memorable?).

When was the last time any president made a speech which really moved you? How many people here are actually old enough to remember hearing it live? I'm betting it was decades ago - modern speech writers are driven by polls, focus groups and the desire not to offend anyone and their excreta is consequently too artificial to include any sort of real emotion.
posted by adamsc at 1:07 AM on September 12, 2001

He gave an appropriate speech. It was to the point and left little to wrestle with. Let the events play out before you develope some sort of perspective on his entire term.
posted by Jack Torrance at 1:20 AM on September 12, 2001

Americans, you now know what it's like to come under air attack. You should remember the World Trade Centre the next time you bomb innocent civilians in other countries. In recent years you've done it to the people of Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Vietnam. This time you've had a taste of your own medicine.
posted by Phil A at 2:36 AM on September 12, 2001

FINALLY, the truth. (Phil A). I rememeber a poet who said "The problem with America is that its' cities have never been bombed and its' mothers told to shut up. " We could turn this into a much-needed lesson in humility, but I doubt we will. I can't believe ppl that argue about the speech, like that corporate shill would have anything truly human to say.

My prayers are for the dead and suffering and that reason prevails.
posted by rickyz at 2:52 AM on September 12, 2001

Phil A. MeFi member since September 12, 2001. Worthless swine since birth.

It's really a troll's paradise today. Pathetic.
posted by estopped at 3:37 AM on September 12, 2001

[That's one of the main reasons why separation of church and state is such a great ideal. Some people see Christianity's presence in politics as defeating this ideal. ]

How does saying something you believe in equate with "establishing a religion"
posted by revbrian at 5:19 AM on September 12, 2001

I wish Bush had declared war on Terrorism instead of targeting the people that did this current tragedy.


Then we could have gone after all terrorists and few foreign governments could have legitimate complaints.
posted by DBAPaul at 5:28 AM on September 12, 2001

My god. All this. Too much. As Mr. Pink says, let's have solidarity. His speech didn't move me, but if I wanted to be moved, I would have reached for the Maalox. The events moved me enough. His speech was anticlimatic, for sure, but there are more important things than "how did the guy perform". Damn, we live in so much of a commercial age that we look to a guy's performance on television in front of a camera to no end. We all knew that Bush couldn't perform, that was something Regan and Clinton were good at. Sorry, I dont want to step on any toes at all. I just think that there are other topics. (Maybe I should follow my own advice and go discuss them...) Just a sad day that gets sadder :-(
posted by adampsyche at 6:31 AM on September 12, 2001

I'm agreeing with linux and want to say that everyone who has been using this as an opportunity to score political points has been reduced to "slime" in my esteem.

What he said. I have a coworker who is a Die-Hard Dem(TM) and blames this whole thing on Bush getting elected. Right. Like the embassies and WTC in 1993 were nothing. That kind of oppportunism makes me ashamed to be a human being.
posted by adampsyche at 6:50 AM on September 12, 2001

Speech writer: Andrew Card
Speech editor: Karen Hughes
Speech reader: George W. Bush

I too extremely dislike having an appointed president instead of an elected one but THIS IS NOT THE TIME for that discussion.

This tragedy is not an intellectual exercise! Has the US government participated in the oppression of persons worldwide for many years? Yes. Does that make this an excusable act? No. All acts of evil stand alone as such. Would I prefer a leader to a puppet? Yes. Will I stand behind my country today? Yes. Let's consider the pain and suffering and leave the political cheap shots to Gingrich and the Faux Network for now. OK?
posted by nofundy at 7:22 AM on September 12, 2001

He gave us a stragedy. He gave us goals. He made us feel safe, he told us what he knew. He made us feel that he was batting for us, that he would do everything he could for us,

That's easy to do when the facts are plain -- we do not have the facts about just who did this incredible thing. Until we have facts, we can have no strategy, we can have no goals. We must proceed carefully. We cannot do anything but say that we are proceeding, and that's exactly what Bush did.

Maybe we can all focus on doing the same now. Find someone who is Arab, let them know that you don't blame them, open a dialogue. Go donate blood. Click on Amazon or Paypal and give a little cash to the Red Cross. Call your local school and see if they need volunteers to do anything while the teachers and counselors talk with the kids today and tomorrow to help them deal with their feelings about what happened.
posted by Dreama at 7:28 AM on September 12, 2001

I'm still trying to decide if Bush's poor oration is good or bad. I'm more worried by politicians with the glib "baffle 'em with bullshit" style who can make up (proper) meaningless platitudes on the fly. It's been decades since we had a president who was allowed to speak from the heart - we have ourselves to blame for that.

I wish he had sounded more like Powell, Hatch or Eagleberger.
posted by username at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2001

Bush speaking from cabinet meeting now.
posted by Sinner at 7:52 AM on September 12, 2001

Follow the ball, people. Thousands of people are dead and you're nitpicking a five-minute address for possibly offensive Biblical quotes and Bush's not-stern-enough facial expressions. Get off your high horse. I'd like to see some of the posters on this thread -- who we've established don't represent the majority of Americans -- run a country in a time of national crisis following the worst terrorist act in the history of the world. Good luck to you, I say.

I watched Bush's address after spending an hour standing in a crowd of 50 or so people in a college library watching people run screaming from a building that seemed to be falling on top of them and watching a plane slam into a building from every conceivable angle. And I was crying. There were many people crying. Call me selfish or bloodthirsty or whatever you'd like, but I didn't need Bush to tell me to be nice to people -- I can figure that on my own (stuff like that is throughout my Bible). I don't need a president who pats me on the head and leads me around by the hand; I needed him to tell me that someone is going to pay for the crimes they have committed against our nation and our people. And as I looked around the library during his speech, students and faculty were nodding and clapping their approval. As Paul might have said, what these terrorists have sowed, they will reap.

And now, to piss off those of you who aren't pissed off yet:

"Now we exort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good for both yourselves and for all." -- I Thess. 5:12-15

Oh, and hug someone you love as much as you can.
posted by Julia2100 at 9:10 AM on September 12, 2001

That kind of oppportunism makes me ashamed to be a human being

humans make me ashamed to be human.

Thousands of people are dead and you're nitpicking a five-minute address...

point of the thread, sweetie. don't like it, don't read it.

but I didn't need Bush to tell me to be nice to people -- I can figure that on my own

as can many of us. many more can't, though.
posted by tolkhan at 10:58 AM on September 12, 2001

Get off your high horse.

Go look in the mirror and say that.

I can figure that on my own (stuff like that is throughout my Bible).

Yeah, you're, uh, a real free spirit...

Call me selfish or bloodthirsty or whatever you'd like

Nah, I'll stop now, no reason to be so mean, but...

Gee, you religous types can be arrogant.

I'm not looking for Bush to put on a big show or sound like Stone Cold Steve Austin (pro wrestler).

The basic problem with Bush's comments thus far are how he pales in comparison to everyone else commenting.

It's not about being "stern" or leading everyone around by the hand, or getting somebody to cry.

He just looks and sounds programmed, as usual.

He seems indifferent to the whole thing.

I guess he would rather be out on the golf course.

Bush seems to be finding out that being President isn't a non-job like that Governor gig he used to have.

It's pathetic when media geeks and everyone else look and sound more qualified to comment than the President.
posted by BarneyFifesBullet at 11:30 AM on September 12, 2001

He seems indifferent to the whole thing.

I guess he would rather be out on the golf course.

I hope you're joking.
posted by monkeygirl at 11:40 AM on September 12, 2001

I'm not arrogant, I'm indignant. Throughout this thread people have belittled the Judeo-Christian principles that this country was founded on and the vast majority of the population of our country that still follow those principles today.

Me quoting the Bible has little indication of the nature of my religion; I could very well be a student of literature.

I have other things I could say, but your future comments would only demonstrate how truly futile they would be. Thank you for reminding me how biased MeFi can be and why I tend to avoid it.
posted by Julia2100 at 11:50 AM on September 12, 2001

I have other things I could say, but your future comments would only demonstrate how truly futile they would be.

Well, oooooooo...

What, like I can't understand you because you're so intelligent?

I didn't "belittle" your beliefs, and you are arrogant.

I could go on and on, but I'm not going to waste any more time with someone that's absolutely desperate for a religion debate.

Thank you for reminding me how biased MeFi can be and why I tend to avoid it.

My good deed for the day, you're welcome everybody.

I actually feel sorry for people like you Julia.

You confuse "bias" with honesty.

You see, there are other ways to look at things.

It's not just Julias World, too bad for you.

Now, take your your "principles" back to the 700 Club if you don't like it here.

Have a nice day.

--

No monkeyirl, of course I'm not joking.
posted by BarneyFifesBullet at 12:40 PM on September 12, 2001

Personally, I thought is was a pretty crappy speech. But what do you expect from a guy who had his head stuck in a bottle for half his life?
posted by PeteyStock at 1:05 PM on September 12, 2001

the Judeo-Christian principles that this country was founded on

See, that's the thing. For some of us, the important principles that this country was founded on are embedded in the Constitution (see esp. the Bill of Rights)--life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness being prime examples--not whatever superstition du jour was popular in 1776 or its modern descendants.
posted by rushmc at 1:38 PM on September 12, 2001

P.S. I'm not suggesting that LL&TPoH is encoded in the Constitution--I know that was the Declaration of Independence. Just citing the spirit of the principles.
posted by rushmc at 1:50 PM on September 12, 2001

I didn't say you couldn't understand me; I implied that you were too closed-minded to listen to what I had to say. You confuse "honesty" with one-sided debate.

So thanks for proving my point, then.
posted by Julia2100 at 2:02 PM on September 12, 2001

Imagine Dan Rather being forced to give such an "off the cuff" speech...

Actually, Dan Rather and other anchors of his caliber do "off the cuff" all the time, and are pretty good at it. TV journalism involves quite a bit of ad lib and thinking on your feet, even if many reporters end up putting said foot in their mouths.

W's vacant expression did nothing for his short, meaningless speech. And Dan writes his own damn copy.
posted by mtevis at 4:30 PM on September 12, 2001

I wondered why this was the most-popular thread on this issue; politics and religion are the two biggest things that people fight about in the world. Why is that?
posted by Katy Action at 4:44 PM on September 12, 2001

Actually, Dan Rather and other anchors of his caliber do "off the cuff" all the time, and are pretty good at it.

You have g-o-t to be kidding.

Julia 2100 - I agree completely, and refuse to try and have an intelligent debate with folks who make such outlandish and truly stupid comments as:

I guess he would rather be out on the golf course.
or
...what do you expect from a guy who had his head stuck in a bottle for half his life?

Do you really think it would have been good to see the President break down in tears on national television? Did you notice the obviously shaken Bush that appeared in Florida BEFORE the real shit hit the fan? For the love of everything sacred, can we for once stand behind our government, our President, and our Country?
posted by canoeguide at 8:51 PM on September 12, 2001