Comments on: Comments on 10112

Post number 10112

Allen Varney — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:10:16 -0800

Wondering why those in power are so earnestly characterizing an act of terrorism as an act of war? Because under New York Consolidated Law S3203.a.17.c.1.C, insurance companies don't have to pay for acts of war. (More inside.)

By: Allen Varney

Allen Varney — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:12:57 -0800

Monday, August 6, 2001 New York State Consolidated Laws ARTICLE 32 INSURANCE CONTRACTS - LIFE, ACCIDENT AND HEALTH, ANNUITIES Section 3203. Individual life insurance policies; standard provisions as to contractual rights and responsibilities of policyholders and insurers. S3203.a.17: "(c) (1) A life insurance policy delivered or issued for delivery in this state may contain provisions excluding or restricting liability in the event of death as a result of: "[...] (C) war or an act of war, within two years from the date of issue of the policy, if the cause of death occurs while the insured is outside the home area but is not serving in any armed forces or attached civilian unit, and death occurs outside the home area or within six months after the insured`s return to the home area. [...] (3) As used in this subsection, the term: [...] (D) "war" includes any war declared or undeclared, and armed aggression resisted by any armed forces; (E) "act of war" means any act peculiar to military, naval, or air operations in time of war...

By: ewagoner

ewagoner — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:20:10 -0800

Pretty much every insurance rider I've ever seen specifically excludes "acts of war". Which is one reason, I'm sure, the politicos have been saying all day that the federal government needs an "open-ended financial purse" (MSNBC quote) to pay for the aftermath. There'll be a bunch of paperwork, but everyone affected will be compensated.

By: linux

linux — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:21:50 -0800

Note that the person must be outside their home area. As in: "Hi, I'm a tourist that went to Kabul to take kewl pictures and got my ass blown to hell."

By: yupislyr

yupislyr — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:23:51 -0800

Sorry no link but I have read somewhere that insurers have already assured that everyone will be compensated. And if they backdown, no doubt there'll be huge public outrage whether it's some law or not.

By: y6y6y6

y6y6y6 — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:29:02 -0800

"Wondering why those in power are so earnestly characterizing an act of terrorism as an act of war?" No. I wasn't wondering about that at all. It seemed pretty obvious to me. You sir, are loony.

By: marknau

marknau — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:31:14 -0800

y6^3 beat me to the loony observation. Good Lord some people believe in astonishingly silly things.

By: dydecker

dydecker — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:34:01 -0800

Insurance companies love the odd disaster like this. It raises premiums.

By: dagny

dagny — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:38:22 -0800

You are the sickest fucking thread, goodbye.

By: stevis

stevis — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:40:48 -0800

The scrolling text on CNN says an Insurance Industry spokesperson says that every ploicy will have it's benefits paid.

By: briank

briank — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:43:56 -0800

In a similar vein, I was disappointed but not surprised to hear Rudy Giuliani warn the merchants of New York not to try to gouge consumers in the wake of the attacks...even in the face of huge adversity, some people will work for their own gain at the expense of others.

By: MarkAnd

MarkAnd — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:44:56 -0800

There are a lot of different types of insurance coverage and there are few blanket rules as to exclusions (regardless of what you believe New York insurance law to say). Generally, here's the possible types of benefits and the exclusions that may exist. GROUP Term Life Insurance (offered through employer): NO EXCLUSIONS -- including suicide. Even if this is considered an act of war, all group term life benefits will be paid. GROUP Accidental Death and Dismemberment (offered through employer): Depending on the policy, acts fo war or terrorism may not be covered. Most, however, (this is just in a cursory glance through a couple of the plans we've written recently) do cover acts of terrorism. Generally, AD&D provides for a second benefit equal to the life benefit -- AD&D is most always offered in conjunction with a group life plan. GROUP Travel Accident Coverage (offered through employer): This will vary. Most GTA policies do NOT cover acts of war (and almost all do not cover for acts of war involving the US). GTA coverage is for people travelling on business. Then, there are various other coverages (individual life, ad&d, travel, etc.) -- these vary so much that I wouldn't want to comment on the specifics. I would be very surprised if this was considered an act of war by the many insurance companies that are involved in this tragedy.

By: sib

sib — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:54:50 -0800

More importantly, an "act of war" (pretty much) obligates NATO partners to go along with a response...

By: raintea

raintea — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:08:00 -0800

Well, the NATO folks have already passed a resolution to invoke Article 5 (ie: WAR) if the US says that's what it wants to do. So it looks like NATO is going along with the response the US wants to take.

By: taumeson

taumeson — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:35:23 -0800

(C) "home area" means the fifty states of the United States, the District of Columbia, and Canada; In other words, only if you're outside of the US and its environs will acts of war disqualify you from collecting your premiums.

By: whoshotwho

whoshotwho — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:53:36 -0800

send back your $300

By: mjane

mjane — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:17:19 -0800

can you declare war on a person or organization? or can it only be declared against a state? is there a rule about this?

By: elfgirl

elfgirl — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:16:25 -0800

It was noted by some talking head today that Thomas Jefferson declared war on the Barbary Pirates, who were not a "country" but a group of people. So, theoretically, assuming that the constitution hasn't changed in that light it can be done.

By: ilsa

ilsa — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:22:12 -0800

Well, I've read my policies. Seems to me there's language about not covering acts of war *declared or undeclared*. Since my house is not apt to move out of the United States, I assume they mean right where it sits. Admittedly I have not read Morgan Stanley's insurance policies. For that matter I am sure that many of the businesses whose offices are no longer extant have insurance covering loss of business. At least one insurance company had headquarters in those buildings. I wonder who a theoretical claimant would even call. Of course it would be terrible terrible publicity for a major insurance company to fail to pay up. In the end that might be what gets the checks moving. Please keep in mind that worrying about insurance claims ranks on the "to do after terrorist attack levels building" list somewhere below the top ten.

By: mmanning

mmanning — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:35:38 -0800

yeah, dydecker, i'm sure the insurance companies are really loving this attack. they love paying out billions of dollars in damages. and varney, "those in power" are characterizing this as an act of war so it's easier to convince people that we should bomb the hell out of someone/thing. that, and oh, the attack on multiple targets on our own soil, including military and civilian installations. what color is the sky in your world?

By: kv

kv — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:14:57 -0800

If this is classified as an act of terrorism - so insurance companies have to pay - and not an act of war - at which the government would pay - then it will actually be the end of many insurance companies. They will fold, many people will be out of jobs, worldwide.

By: Allen Varney

Allen Varney — Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:48:55 -0800

and varney, "those in power" are characterizing this as an act of war so it's easier to convince people that we should bomb the hell out of someone/thing. that, and oh, the attack on multiple targets on our own soil, including military and civilian installations. what color is the sky in your world? I live in the world where "war" is organized conflict between nation-states, or between rival factions struggling for control of their own nation-state. Or, in any case, it's not conflict between a world superpower and 50 guys with knives and box-cutters. Is my sky different from yours?