FULL NAME: your african-american friends | LOCATION: probably can't stand you
March 3, 2011 4:34 PM Subscribe

A new nightclub is opening in Park Slope, Brooklyn. It's call Prime 6 and despite opposition from local Community Board 6 it had already acquired a 3 story space not far from the Atlantic Yard projects as well as the requisite liquor licenses from the State Liquor Authority. The nightclub's owner promises that the club will cater to a Park Slope clientele but locals aren't convinced. Prime 6's Myspace and Facebook pages (now both deleted) featured "suggestively posed women" and a link to the “Prime 6 mixed CD,” created by hip hop artist DJ Big Jeff, with songs titles including “Motha F–ka, I’m Ill” and “New Money.” CB6 has officially stated that it will reconsider its next move, however local CB6 member Jennifer McMillen has distributed a virtual petition seeking to persuade the nightclub to "Embrace Indie Music" instead of hip-hop.

From the petition:

No one can change the fact that Prime 6 WILL exist - they have their liquor license, and nothing's going to deter them from opening. BUT: What if owner Akiva Ofshtein could be convinced that his business will see far more financial success as a different kind of nightlife establishment. Instead of focussing on hip-hop and urban entertainment, what if Prime 6 embraced some of the more indie local artists of ALL races who live and perform in the area.

It's not "racist" to equate hip-hop with an elevated crime rate vis a vi other types of musical genres - It's just a statistical fact that crime is more likely to occur among urban audiences than among audiences of other demographics. R&B and rap happen to be my two favorite types of music, but no one (especially my African American friends and colleagues) would seriously deny that hip-hop's violent history tragically precedes it.[sic]

The virtual petition has garnered hundreds of signatures, unfortunately for McMillen virtually all of the signatures are jokes, or worse, pro hip-hop music.

posted by 2bucksplus (123 comments total) 10 users marked this as a favorite

I used to go to that video store! They would rent out entire seasons of TV shows for the price of one DVD rental which was pretty sweet.
posted by josher71 at 4:38 PM on March 3, 2011

Instead of focussing on hip-hop and urban entertainment, what if Prime 6 embraced some of the more indie local artists of ALL races who live and perform in the area.

How is it that the "more indie local artists of ALL races who live and perform in the area" are not also "urban entertainment?" Is Park Slope not an urban area?

Oh, right. "Urban" is code for something else.
posted by The World Famous at 4:38 PM on March 3, 2011 [45 favorites]

The virtual petition has garnered hundreds of signatures, unfortunately for McMillen virtually all of the signatures are jokes, or worse, pro hip-hop music.

She was asking for it. This lady is a jerk.
posted by anniecat at 4:39 PM on March 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

She should probably lose her position on the board over this, tbh.
posted by empath at 4:40 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yeah, in the battle of Park Slope vs hip-hop I know where I'm going to place my bet.
posted by GuyZero at 4:40 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

So is she basically suggesting that the club play all Pomplamoose all the time?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:41 PM on March 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

Pomplamoose has destroyed more souls than hiphop ever will. You only have to look into the lady-half's dead dead eyes to know the truth.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 4:43 PM on March 3, 2011 [13 favorites]

Obviously there's a compromise in order. Prime6 will allow strollers, free wifi and promise to play N.E.R.D., or Lupe Fiasco once ever 15 sets.
posted by geoff. at 4:45 PM on March 3, 2011 [10 favorites]

This is the whitest thing that has ever been done. Martin Mull never did anything this white.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:48 PM on March 3, 2011 [42 favorites]

She could have just stated all of this in a private letter to the owners and then let it drop. I guess people don't do that any more? If she was right in her theory then the club would either die or change anyway regardless. But it's actually none of her business.
posted by amethysts at 4:48 PM on March 3, 2011

So there's absolutely no merit to the position that hip hop clubs bring with them more problems with violence than other kinds of clubs?

Honest question. Because this feels a bit kneejerk here.

You dont have to believe that hip hop or black people are inherently violent to recognize that there have been a lot of issues with violence at hip hop clubs and events and that it is disproportionate from other sorts of clubs and events.
Yes yes yes, we all know that there are fights at country and rock clubs, but not alot of them involving gun violence.

Hell, I had promoter friends here that had their nights shut down a few years back and they were just doing backpack (back when it was called that hip hop) because they had 2 shootings in two months in the parking lot.

You dont have to be David Duke believing that the "urban" crowd has some sort of instinctual predilection for violence to not want a hip hop club in your neighborhood.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:49 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Ohhhh...
The indies and the gangstas should be friends!
Yes, the indies and the gangstas should be friends!
One likes ukelele-rock!
The other packs a loaded Glock!
But that's no reason why they can't be friends...
posted by bicyclefish at 4:50 PM on March 3, 2011 [23 favorites]

Ridiculous but not unexpected.

This seems like the kind of business that may start sprouting up around the new Nets arena. (That is, one that appeals to a different demographic, racially and culturally, than that area has become accustomed to.) It will be interesting to see to what extent opposition to Atlantic Yards starts serving as the polite veneer for Park Slopers to mount ultimately racist attacks on this and other businesses.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 4:51 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm thinking Senor Cardgage hasn't seen a hip-hop club outside of insanely biase media representation.
posted by basicchannel at 4:52 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

Jennifer McMillen, that's mighty white of you.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:52 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Next thing you know they'll be raping our precious, white, chunky-framed glasses-wearing little girls. :( :(
posted by basicchannel at 4:53 PM on March 3, 2011 [6 favorites]

I'm outraged for the fine citizens of [locale]! I will happily lend my signature to this [pre_printed_form_method].
posted by NoMich at 4:53 PM on March 3, 2011

I'm thinking Senor Cardgage hasn't seen a hip-hop club outside of insanely biase media representation.

And you would be wrong.
I did club promotion, parties, raves, house music/R&B/club nights for the better part of a decade.
I know full well the kind of problems that spring up and I still have friends doing parties and club nights that run into these issues.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:54 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

that it [violence] is disproportionate from other sorts of clubs and events.

I'd be curious to see a source for that assertion.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:54 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Yeah, in the battle of Park Slope vs hip-hop I know where I'm going to place my bet.

On someone setting up a cage match and "losing" the key? Me too, but don't tell everyone because it'll ruin the payoff.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 4:55 PM on March 3, 2011

Ah. I knew I shouldnt have bothered.
This is going to go so predictably.
And no one has touched my, again, honest question.

Clearly I must be worried about invading hordes of mongrel darkies like this was a DW Grifftih flick.

OK you guys, I concede. Hip hop clubs are safer than regular clubs. There's never any issues with them. Safe as milk.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:57 PM on March 3, 2011

This is an even better episode of "Let's You and Him Fight" than last week's tussle between the WBC and Anonymous.
posted by whuppy at 4:57 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

I still get 35% of the juke box and crushed ice racket.
posted by clavdivs at 4:58 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

Guys, before you get all hipster-hate, please know that Park Slope is home to yuppies, not hipsters.

Thanks,
Dude who lives in NYC and is listening to Yo La Tengo right now.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 4:59 PM on March 3, 2011 [11 favorites]

Senor Cardgage: Yeah, in my (white, with pockets of Hispanic, northern California wine country) town we have a very popular venue that a whole lot of kids spent a whole lot of time at. It's an old theater, and a portion of the seats have been taken out, there have been skateboard ramps built up the side of the audience section, it's a non-profit teen hangout that also happens to have concerts. After a few post-concert shootings and various other violence, they dropped a few promoters and canceled the hyphy shows, and, whaddaya know, all of a sudden the post-concert police calls dropped dramatically too.

(Additional disclosure: The daughter of a friend of mine works for one of the more popular hyphy bands)

There are bands and styles whose fans tend to be violent and disruptive. Seems like trying to call that out provokes a completely different response here than, say, suggesting that there might be a likelihood of marijuana use among fans of jam bands.
posted by straw at 5:01 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

Online petition? Always a great idea! It's like setting up an online forum for people to talk about how they'll boycott a product! That'll show somebody!

virtually all of the signatures are jokes, or worse, pro hip-hop music

Oh noes, not pro hip-hop music! That is worse than a joke!

And it's true, Eric B and Rakim are no joke.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:02 PM on March 3, 2011 [6 favorites]

Seems like a minor local-interest news story to me; saying that as someone who lived a few blocks from there (Bergen/Carlton) circa 1994 and in Bklyn for a decade.
posted by The Emperor of Ice Cream at 5:02 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

There's no use telling anyone they're being racist because nobody *ever* believes it.
posted by whuppy at 5:03 PM on March 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

CB6 hates CB4?
posted by klangklangston at 5:08 PM on March 3, 2011 [5 favorites]

"(especially my African American friends and colleagues)"
posted by klangklangston at 5:10 PM on March 3, 2011 [5 favorites]

Oh my god, I live near that area and this is so shameful.
posted by Falconetti at 5:13 PM on March 3, 2011

For reference's sake, CB 6 is 55% white, 13.5% black, with a median household income of $80,072. CB 8, which begins literally across the street from this venue, is 5% white, 83% black, with a median household income of $39,270. source.

Yes but boundaries must be respected, or the next thing you know they'll be putting hip hop clubs on your side of the street! Can you IMAGINE?
posted by Max Power at 5:13 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

So there's absolutely no merit to the position that hip hop clubs bring with them more problems with violence than other kinds of clubs?

You should check out the logger bar scene in towns like Nanaimo or Port Alberni or Prince George, uber white cities if there ever were any (actually, that's not true, it's just that Indian bars and white bars are pretty much segregated).

Twenty years ago I did a pub crawl in Port Alberni. Most violent night of my life. Just lining up to go into the bar people were fighting, metal detector and grilled entrance, people getting thrown out windows, slammed on tables. The band was nice.

Hopefully there are no lumberjacks in Park Slope.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:17 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

Hopefully there are no lumberjacks in Park Slope.

No but there are plenty of people dressed like lumberjacks
posted by 2bucksplus at 5:18 PM on March 3, 2011 [10 favorites]

"...believe me, as someone who has chosen not to have children, I'm more than aware of the self-entitled attitude that often pervades parts of our community."

R&B and rap happen to be my two favorite types of music, but no one (especially my African American friends and colleagues)..."

Oh, man...she played the "my black friends" card *and* took a swipe at people with kids. This woman is either a racist or a troll, and either way she's an idiot.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:19 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

CB6 hates CB4?

Actually, CB7 8 9.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 5:19 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

Another data point that supports Senor Cardgage's assertion, in the college town I spent the last decade or so in, there was one mostly hip-hop club and roughly 20 or so generic nightclubs...

The hip-hop night club was shut down recently and it's liquor license revoked because there were 5 gun violence incidents in a month. Before this club opened there weren't any gun violence problems (that I or my friends can remember) and since it closed down, there hasn't been any since.

Yeah, I know, small sample size and confirmation bias, but it's not just pointless hand-waving...there is an association with gun violence.
posted by schyler523 at 5:23 PM on March 3, 2011

So there's absolutely no merit to the position that hip hop clubs bring with them more problems with violence than other kinds of clubs?

I was trying to find some statistics to support or refute this beyond your anecdotal evidence, but I'm having a hard time doing so. It is important to note that your personal experience - while valid - is not necessarily reflective of any overall statistical trends. Hip Hop Clubs may, indeed, be the source of more violence than other clubs, or they may not be. I can't find solid evidence one way or another.

That said, I think the error in judgment that Ms. McMillen made here was that she framed her argument in such a way that it suggests a racist motive on her part. If the issue was, in fact, that Hip Hop Clubs tend to attract more violence than other clubs, she would have been better served by not suggesting "Indie Music" as an alternative. This, in part, created the black/white dichotomy of her petition.

If, instead, she has written something that demonstrated through facts that Hip Hop Clubs tend to be centers of violence and then suggested that CB6 and the club work on ways that they could better ensure that this club would not be a source of violence, she would probably have been met more with logic and less vitriol.

Anyways, long story short, there may or may not be merit to the position you pose in your questions, but all I've seen in support of it so far are anecdotes and a few news stories, not reliable statistical facts.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:24 PM on March 3, 2011 [10 favorites]

You dont have to believe that hip hop or black people are inherently violent to recognize that there have been a lot of issues with violence at hip hop clubs and events and that it is disproportionate from other sorts of clubs and events.

Would you care to provide some kind of statistics or studies or other kind of proof that is not by nature, anecdotal?
posted by cmgonzalez at 5:24 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Oh, I forgot, there is tons of general violence pretty much anywhere in town after midnight, there just wasn't gun violence until the hip-hop club started up.
posted by schyler523 at 5:25 PM on March 3, 2011

CB5 FOR LIFE!
posted by fuq at 5:27 PM on March 3, 2011

No one can change the fact that the Cotton Club WILL exist - they have their liquor license, and nothing's going to deter them from opening. BUT: What if owner Owney Madden could be convinced that his business will see far more financial success as a different kind of nightlife establishment. Instead of focusing on "jazz" and its dark, jungle rhythms, what if the Cotton Club embraced some of the local ragtime and vaudville performers of ALL races who live and perform in the area?
posted by markkraft at 5:28 PM on March 3, 2011 [21 favorites]

Ah white people, the people that love to hate. Muslims go home (or come to Canada, please, eh?)
posted by anthill at 5:29 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

The hip hop club in my college town in Maine had their liquor license pulled and eventually got shut down because so many people were getting stabbed there. The patrons weren't even predominately black or anything (it's Maine, for crying out loud)- mostly it was white bro dudes.

Back to the petition in question, though: Sometimes I really loathe yuppies.
posted by dunkadunc at 5:31 PM on March 3, 2011

For reals though, legitimate hip-hop clubs in New York with their Liquor Licence, especially if they can afford to open in Park Slope may even reduce the street crime in the neighborhood because high end hip-hop clubs take security very seriously and usually have the most massive security dudes on the block. It's almost an established aesthetic.

These racist folk are thinking about venue halls, which in Brooklyn (East New York area, probably not as far West as Park Slope) are often rented out for street gang parties. Those places can and do have more violence, but Prime 6 isn't one of those.

Anyway, this is a clever viral marketing campaign.
posted by fuq at 5:34 PM on March 3, 2011 [5 favorites]

Wow.
The part of me that knows people are that crazy is arguing with the part of me that thinks it's some Andy Kaufman level joke.
"bling-bling" club????
c'mon.
posted by djrock3k at 5:35 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

No judgements please, but here's the data I can report:

Lived upstairs from a hip-hop club in Chelsea for about four months last year.

Quite a bit of noise one night a week, when everybody got kicked out of the club. Escalated into a near-riot maybe six or seven times.

Escalated to gunshots once.
posted by effugas at 5:36 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

This is why I will always prefer Bars to Clubs. In Bars the pursuit of drunkenness overrides all this silly bullshit.
posted by jonmc at 5:37 PM on March 3, 2011 [9 favorites]

fuq--

I can confirm hilariously enormous security guards at the place downstairs from me. I think they only maintain security _inside_ the club, however.
posted by effugas at 5:37 PM on March 3, 2011

I worked in city government for a while and dealt with these problems all the time. It doesn't matter what it is: a nightclub, a restaurant, a florist. There will be people who will scream about how this will ruin the neighborhood and this will be the final straw they are moving to the suburbs and blah blah blah. And they always come back.

They will get petitions. Real petitions too with signatures. They will call the office every day to see "where we are on this". But seldom will they ever show up to a zoning board meeting.

Once, I had a woman cry on the floor of a city council meeting about how she is handicapped (she isn't, I ran into her jogging in the park a few times) and walking from her car to her home will be impossible because of increased parking thanks to that damned day care center. Of course, that was at the point when there was nothing the council could do to stop it. She didn't show up to the community meetings we scheduled and notified her block about.

I laugh and laugh a satisfying Vogon laugh.
posted by munchingzombie at 5:38 PM on March 3, 2011 [19 favorites]

I worked the door and tended bar for a summer at a big club in my hometown. We had different sorts of events on different nights - Nine Inch Nails concert one night, a hip hop party the next, that sort of thing. This was in the mid-90s.

As a bartender, we had a drill where we could quickly have the cash registers, tip jars, and everything of value below the bar and ourselves backed up behind it with empty magnum bottles at the ready as defensive weapons. We never needed to actually put the drill into action on any night other than the hip hop nights. There were never any fights beyond one punch on any other night - Metal? Punk? Hardcore? Industrial? No problem. But on the hip hop nights, there was usually a full-on brawl about once an hour.

I quit my job when we had a shooting about 20 feet from where I was standing. It was a hip hop night.

So, not enough data to form a convincing theory. But my own experience is consistent with that of Senor Cardgage.
posted by The World Famous at 5:44 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Jennifer McMillen should just throw her hands in the air. And wave 'em like she just don't care.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:46 PM on March 3, 2011 [5 favorites]

Jennifer McMillen should just throw her hands in the air. And wave 'em like she just don't care.

She may be concerned that the roof may catch fire and that the club's occupants will refuse the fire department's offer to put it out.
posted by The World Famous at 5:48 PM on March 3, 2011 [35 favorites]

Disregard the Hyperbole of News Outlets.
posted by jonmc at 5:49 PM on March 3, 2011

the Hyperbole of News Outlets.

One of my favorite indie bands.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:51 PM on March 3, 2011 [4 favorites]

Have any of you actually listened the hip hop they play in clubs lately?

It'd make me shoot somebody.
posted by fryman at 5:51 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

My father was a bouncer in a blues club for the first three years of my life (it was a moonlighting-for-fun job -- his friends owned the place, and he asked for a job solely so he could get in free on his nights off). He finally quit one night when he saw someone brought a gun to the club.

I think he said it was Bonnie Raitt that night.

The moral: no one type of club attracts more violence than any other (that, or my hometown was way more hardcore than I ever knew).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:52 PM on March 3, 2011

She's clearly never been to a Decemberists gig. When the Akron/Family crew roll up, bodies get dropped.

One time, I heard Colin Meloy shot a guy in the gut just for having brakes on his fixie. Let him bleed out like that.
posted by dudekiller at 5:54 PM on March 3, 2011 [14 favorites]

Royal Video was super creepy.
posted by milarepa at 5:54 PM on March 3, 2011

I heard Colin Meloy shot a guy in the gut just for having brakes on his fixie.

I like big tires and I can not lie.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:56 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Would you care to provide some kind of statistics or studies or other kind of proof that is not by nature, anecdotal?

I'm not sure why you'd need more than anecdotes from club promoters and bartenders, frankly. Maybe you could do a study.
posted by Hoopo at 5:58 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Even accepting the premise that that there's statistically an increased likelihood of violence in hip-hop clubs, though, is that a reason to essentially say "we shouldn't have places where hip-hop music plays and where people who like hip-hop music congregate"? Should we go on a rampage to shut down hip-hop venues everywhere?

This reminds me of the initiatives to crack down on raves. Sure, you're more likely to find people selling ecstacy at places where electronic dance music is played. Does that mean we should crack down on places where electronic dance music is played, for the good of the community? Music is not a crime.

Also, violent people will be violent. If they're not being violent in public, they're being violent in places where the cops are less likely to be called.
posted by naju at 6:04 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

So a panda walked into a typical, urban hip-hop venue...
posted by artof.mulata at 6:05 PM on March 3, 2011

. . .and somewhere in Bizarro World, there is a kickball league trying to secure playing time at Rucker Park.
posted by KingEdRa at 6:08 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

What is it about this shitty new century that has me going back all the time to the clarion call of the eighties: Let the marketplace decide?

If they're playing by the rules, and you don't like it -- tough shit and get over it. Sheesh.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:08 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Just goes to show people will call anything Park Slope these days. 2nd Avenue? Park Slope. Atlantic Yards? Park Slope. Sunset Park? Park Slope South. "Are you going to the Ikea over in Park Slope?" Yeah, I guess Brooklyn is pretty much down to Williamsburg and Park Slope. Oh, and the parts we don't talk about where the not-so-white people don't live.
posted by rikschell at 6:08 PM on March 3, 2011 [7 favorites]

So a panda walked into a typical, urban hip-hop venue...

and his name was Bling Bling.
posted by jonmc at 6:12 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell
posted by chaff at 6:17 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell

weak.
posted by rainperimeter at 6:24 PM on March 3, 2011

OK, admitted. It's just that hip hop night promoters in my town have to constantly battle this perception that the music fuels violence in order to have a community, it's irritating to see that perception writ large in this case. I have sympathy for the commenters upthread who have dealt with negative experiences at hip hop nights, but I do think this episode is fueled at least partially by racism.
posted by chaff at 6:31 PM on March 3, 2011

Indie hip hop music - by which I mean the guy selling his mixtape on the corner - is the indiest form of music there is.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 6:31 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

Have any of you ever been to a hillbilly jamboree?! It was violent as fuck. This guy was blowing into a jug with XXX written on it and then some guy insulted his goatee and he just loses it and smashes the jug into the other guys head and blood shoots out everywhere all over everyone's shabby homemade clothes. Then this man's hand is bit by a mean old hog and you can see the bone; it's horrible! All crime is equal.
posted by I Foody at 6:38 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'm going to totally fuck someone up at a Band of Horses show with the express intent of causing those in the know to flee at my approach.

"He jumped out right after seeing just the very sight of me ..."
posted by adipocere at 6:41 PM on March 3, 2011

Urban. Heh.
posted by the young rope-rider at 6:42 PM on March 3, 2011

"The business owner who is able to do THAT will reap financial rewards far beyond what they could hope to earn by selling Henessey/etc to basketball fans after a Nets game. "

This is just so racist

I thought that the problem was hip hop, alas, it's not, it's the "urban" demographic that watches basketball and drinks Hennessey

And nice contrast between the "hip hop" demographic and "ALL races" making it clear that the issue is not the music...it's that they're black.
posted by the young rope-rider at 6:46 PM on March 3, 2011 [5 favorites]

She's gonna regret this when the riff-raff just take over the nearest bowling alley..
posted by mannequito at 6:54 PM on March 3, 2011

You want to know what leads to increased violence outside of clubs? Let me tell you a story...

Here in Seattle, there was this hip-hop "Urban" club. There had been some problems, with the clientele's behavior already. And then, a block and a half down the street, a new club opened up. A "Cowboy" club.

I worked in a building near there, that had a window that overlooked the intersection between the two. So one Saturday night, I had been working really late, and hit this window at about 5 minutes after both clubs had closed. All of the patrons of both establishments had come out at the same time...

The intersection was a freaking riot. I decided to stay inside for a few minutes and watch, rather than venture out into the melee.

Guess which club is now closed?
posted by Windopaene at 6:59 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Did they fuse to form an "Urban Cowboy" club?
posted by dunkadunc at 7:02 PM on March 3, 2011 [3 favorites]

Worst club I've ever known was an indie club.

'Course, what was so awful about it was that someone thought putting a night club next to the grad student dorm was a good idea. Reading Hobbes is not easier with the accompaniment of an excessively loud base beat.
posted by jb at 7:13 PM on March 3, 2011

"There's like a 10-percent chance that Carles is behind this"

Yeah.
posted by Kylio at 7:33 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Back in my younger days I attempted to see the Circle Jerks. I was in the club after the cops had turned off the lights, watching Keith Morris scream at the top of his lungs "Come on, I thought you fuckers were into anarchy!" Lots of busted cars and people that night.

We go to clubs for excitement. The color of skin doesn't matter in how we find it.
posted by I love you more when I eat paint chips at 7:50 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Even accepting the premise that that there's statistically an increased likelihood of violence in hip-hop clubs, though, is that a reason to essentially say "we shouldn't have places where hip-hop music plays and where people who like hip-hop music congregate"? Should we go on a rampage to shut down hip-hop venues everywhere?

Yeah, Jesus Christ. If we really were going for safety in our society, we'd ban cars. Apparently some people like to drive places. Some people also like to listen to hip-hop music. Which is a whole lot less dangerous.
posted by threeants at 8:12 PM on March 3, 2011

> She may be concerned that the roof may catch fire and that the club's occupants will refuse the fire department's offer to put it out.

Roof On Fire Claims Lives Of 43 Party People
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:25 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

[Captain Murphy]

CB6 is jerks.

[/Captain Murphy]
posted by rollbiz at 8:28 PM on March 3, 2011

I can't believe that considering the legacy of racism in the USA, none of the people who are equating hip hop with inevitable violence are bothering to acknowledge that they've got nothing more than anecdotal nonsense and that there just might be some ingrained racism to that

Well it might be because I'm from Canada, and I am also speaking from my own experience in hip hop clubs & events, which where I grew up were generally full of white suburbanites in baggy pants shouting "YO". This is what hip hop events looked like where I grew up. So yeah, it's basically J-Rock from Trailer Park Boys except for real. Get enough kids like this together, all pretending to be something they're not, and the ego and insecurity explodes into fights, stabbings and a whole lot of fake NYC accents. Feel free to call me a racist if it makes you feel better, but it's nothing more than a knee-jerk response and there just might be some anecdotal nonsense to that.
posted by Hoopo at 8:28 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

Three points:

1) I'd like to see some statistical data on violence in various types of clubs.

2) If such data shows that the rate of violence in a hip-hop club is twice that in another club, that still means there is violence in both. Why is one level of violence acceptable but another level not acceptable?

3) Why is it appropriate to punish someone for something they haven't done yet? That sounds awfully "Minority Report" to me. If there's violence, shut them down. But don't tell them "we _think_ there's going to be violence, so you don't even get an opportunity to try".
posted by RalphSlate at 8:33 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

If we're spinning anecdote into data here: The only fight I've ever been in at a concert was at a Kaki King show.

Make whatever broad-ranging assumptions about the appropriateness of music venues you would like with that information.
posted by rollbiz at 8:36 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

The real problem is fight clubs where people get into dances.
posted by brain_drain at 8:56 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

You know, the really sad thing here is that everybody is picking up on the racism angle and running with it, which, to my mind, completely misses the point. This has nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with RIDICULOUS WHITE PEOPLE BEING RIDICULOUS. Park Slope is the new capitol of ridiculous white people, and this is what they do. Oh, lets parade around in our yoga pants and organic strollers and pretend we don't live IN A FUCKING CITY. Look people, cities have clubs, clubs play music, and sometimes people get in fights. These things fucking happen, and if you don't like that, go back to the suburbs and mow your fucking lawn. Dear god, it's a club in Park Fucking Slope, the capitol of New Gentrified Brooklyn. Exactly how many gunfights do you think there will be?

I mean, just look at McMillen. Look at the wording of the petition. I don't think I've ever seen anything that spelled RIDICULOUS WHITE PEOPLE BEING RIDICULOUS more clearly. I mean, she clearly bends over backwards in every possible contortion to prove that she isn't racist. And you know what? I bet she isn't a racist. She's just part of the set that likes to get all worked up over little shit and then articulately and pointedly describe why they aren't, in fact a RIDICULOUS WHITE PERSON BEING RIDICULOUS.
posted by Afroblanco at 9:29 PM on March 3, 2011 [16 favorites]

Where are these statistics supposed to come from that gauge the relative violence in clubs that play hip hop versus clubs that play indie music? There isn't someone out there quantifying everything. That doesn't make it illegitimate for people to express their opinions about the issue.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 9:30 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

I know that location. It's pretty quiet there at night right now and if I lived nearby - I'd be totally pissed off about any club there - hip hop or indie. I almost took an apartment nearby - thanking my lucky stars I did not.
posted by borges at 9:34 PM on March 3, 2011

The petition itself seems to have garnered at least 45 pages of comments thus far, many of which are hilarious jokes, some of which are insults, a few of which are flat-out hate speech, and approximately 20 actual signatures.

But seriously, there's just so much awesome in here. It's impossible to read these signatures and not laugh out loud; it's like reading a particularly witty bathroom wall:

Akiva, just open a quiet restaurant ... I can bring my squalling toddlers to
Some of my best ... nannies are black
If my special fetus overhears hip hop ... it will lose IQ points
It's just a statistical fact ... that my black friends hate me
Only fight I saw in 2010 ... was at a Pavement show
I hope you get an email ... every time someone signs
I am white ... and you are a racist
I only tolerate other races ... when they're on the Food Network
Honky Grandma ... Be Trippin'

Also for some reason Charlie Sheen has signed the petition about twenty times.
posted by brina at 9:37 PM on March 3, 2011 [5 favorites]

You dont have to believe that hip hop or black people are inherently violent to recognize that there have been a lot of issues with violence at hip hop clubs and events and that it is disproportionate from other sorts of clubs and events.

Blanket statements based on anecdotes are not useful in anyway. What do you have to believe to recognize this purported fact? Someone who applies their experiences to a broader whole? You don't have to be vodkaist to realize that places where people consume alcohol have the potential to be the site of violent.

I'm not sure why you'd need more than anecdotes from club promoters and bartenders, frankly. Maybe you could do a study.

Maybe because anecdotes are virtually useless when they are used to support absolutist statements like the above? Maybe you could do a study? What kind of refutation is that? Maybe you should do a study since your belief in the power of anecdotes to describe a trend is so well-founded.
posted by IvoShandor at 10:27 PM on March 3, 2011 [2 favorites]

This has nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with RIDICULOUS WHITE PEOPLE BEING RIDICULOUS.

Codes like "urban" don't help. She's "urban" don't ya know? Urban must be the new welfare queen. So often "white people being ridiculous" has everything to do with racism.
posted by IvoShandor at 10:29 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Because in the absence of scientific data, anecdotes from people that manage, organize, work at, and attend these venues is probably the best we can do?
posted by Hoopo at 10:59 PM on March 3, 2011 [1 favorite]

Urban must be the new welfare queen

weird--in Vancouver, "urban" is code for "elite 'cool' shit for rich yuppies" and is included in the names of all the expensive shops.
posted by Hoopo at 11:06 PM on March 3, 2011

There is a lot of research, I've only scanned these but I offer them for further reading.

Rap Music and Rap Audiences: Controversial Themes, Psychological Effects and Political Resistance [PDF]
Travis L. Dixon, Communication Studies, Institute for Social Research, University of
Michigan; TaKeshia Brooks, Communication Studies, University of Michigan
(This is the best overview of the research I've found)

[Abstract] Music, substance use, and aggression
CHEN Meng-Jinn; MILLER Brenda A.; GRUBE Joel W.; WAITERS Elizabeth D.;

Exposure to Violent Media: The Effects of Songs With Violent Lyrics on Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings [PDF]
Craig A. Anderson and Nicholas L. Carnagey Iowa State University: Janie Eubanks
Texas Department of Human Services

Black youth violence has a bad rap. (Youth Confronting Public Institutions).
Journal of Social Issues | March 22, 2003 | Mahiri, Jabari; Conner, Erin

[Abstract] Listening to Rap: Cultures of Crime, Cultures of Resistance
Social Forces - Volume 88, Number 2, December 2009, pp. 693-722

*Psychology of Heavy Metal Music
Effects on Mood, Aggression, Suicide, Drug Use and Intelligence
May 8, 2008 Jennifer Copley

Effect on Animals

A student named David Merrill subjected mice to the music of a heavy metal band called Anthrax 24-hours a day to discover how it would affect their ability to learn new things, but instead of completing Merrill’s maze, the heavy metal mice all killed one another.

*The least scholarly of the lot by far but included because "the heavy metal mice all killed one another.".
posted by vapidave at 11:33 PM on March 3, 2011 [5 favorites]

I've seen fights at Monster Magnet and Gaslight Anthem. This is quasi-racist bullshit. People who pull this are the same assholes who move next to a rock venue and complain about the noise.
I prefer indie to hiphop. I PERCIEVE less violence at indie and rock nights because I know people and feel safer. But I wouldn't dare tell somebody they couldn't listen to their music. Hell isn't there heaps of indie hiphop now? And even if there wasn't the indie and rock kids should stand with the rap fans in the name of music and partying.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 12:13 AM on March 4, 2011 [2 favorites]

Fuck all "quasi" about it.
posted by fullerine at 1:43 AM on March 4, 2011 [1 favorite]

Back in the day, I had friends involved in the local hardcore punk scene. It was extremely difficult to find venues willing to host hardcore shows because of the reputation for violence, which was well deserved. Nobody needed peer-reviewed studies to justify this belief, it was evident. Rival crews, which one could easily compare to street gangs, would show up for the expressed purpose of brawling with each other. After a couple of incidents, venues just wouldn't book those shows. But since everybody was white, there was no fretting about it.
posted by gngstrMNKY at 2:17 AM on March 4, 2011

Comment from the Brooklyn Paper article thread:

RAlti from Midwood says:

Speaking as a white girl born and raised in Brooklyn, I hope this bar gets built, and I hope it makes those ridiculous hipster transplants miserable. What are they complaining about? They've already gentrified the neighborhood to the point where not even the natives of this city can live here. They've chased EVERYONE out. They deserve this. I'm sick of what is happening in Brooklyn. It's criminal how they've overpaid and left nothing for the hard working Brooklynites to enjoy. I hope this bar is built, and I hope it's really loud!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:20 AM on March 4, 2011 [7 favorites]

Think locally. Act globally.
posted by Eideteker at 5:32 AM on March 4, 2011

I'm a white park sloper who lives very close to that spot and I am excited about the idea of a good club being built here. There aren't enough places to dance and that playlist sounded good. I don't need a steak restaurant though.
posted by rmless at 5:58 AM on March 4, 2011

Upon re-Ring TFA, I have to think that we've all been trolled; that petition is just too provacateurrific.
posted by whuppy at 6:15 AM on March 4, 2011

Perhaps New York's Finest will take a lesson from the U.K.'s repression of violent football [soccer] fans, and control this problem once and for all: "NYPD Tames Hip-Hop Hooligans" seems Post-friendly enough...
posted by wenestvedt at 6:24 AM on March 4, 2011

After all, which one of Prime 6's direct neighbors wouldn't be forever grateful to Ofshtein for seeding a vibrant artistic hub instead of another Yo MTV Raps "bling-bling" vip club.

I'll make everyone feel old by pointing out that Yo! MTV Raps was cancelled 16 years ago.
posted by electroboy at 7:28 AM on March 4, 2011 [3 favorites]

rmless - southpaw?

but whatever...first, i dont think most non-brooklyn or ny people realize that hip hop clubs in brooklyn have and always been a RARITY. rappers, producers, promoters all go to west village/chelsea/meatpacking district for clubs. its been like that for decades. rappers live here they dont play here.

also, this isnt just going to be another club...its going to be near the mythical Atlantic Yards (last bastion of true 2000's real estate speculation ) its going to be near an NBA stadium. It will be more of a south beach guido fest club than whatever vision of a dead prez/mf doom
posted by lslelel at 8:03 AM on March 4, 2011 [1 favorite]

The people saying that lumberjack and hillbilly bars out in the wilderness are violent are correct but that's not really relevant. This is a nightclub in New York City. Are you really willing to bet that an indie rock concert venue or fratboy sportsbar will have the same amount of violent incidents as this hip-hop club?

That being said, Jennifer McMillen is out of her mind.

Full name: I like turtles! Location: Your mom
posted by solmyjuice at 9:05 AM on March 4, 2011

Why is it appropriate to punish someone for something they haven't done yet? That sounds awfully "Minority Report" to me. If there's violence, shut them down. But don't tell them "we _think_ there's going to be violence, so you don't even get an opportunity to try".

For sure it would be punishment in this situation because they've already been given the OK to open. And for the record, I don't buy this lady's argument either and have never been to NYC. But occupancy of buildings in the area is a significant factor in determining insurance rates, land values, the type of permissible future development/zoning, etc. and is why they have public hearings for development permits which this stupid person apparently didn't bother showing up to. A club moving in to your neighbourhood is a legitimate concern, however the type probably doesn't matter much and this woman's request to have more ukelele shows is kinda nonsense in that regard.

It is the case however that obtaining insurance for rap and metal shows is generally more expensive than rock shows and subject to underwriting reviews and special consideration more frequently. Rap and metal events get their own category distinct from "rock" and other events, and some insurers don't even offer coverage. Ostensibly this is because there's a greater risk of incidents, but science will probably again determine it's due to ingrained racism upon further study.

fratboy sportsbar will have the same amount of violent incidents as this hip-hop club?

actually this is kinda the other common type of bar where in my experience you are very likely to see a fight. The 18-22 set that can't handle their booze get ugly with alarming frequency.
posted by Hoopo at 9:20 AM on March 4, 2011

fratboy sportsbar will have the same amount of violent incidents as this hip-hop club?

~~The~~ That particular 18-22 set that can't handle their booze get ugly with alarming frequency.

I know tons of upstanding 18-22 year old drunks. They just don't hang out at fratbro bars.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 9:53 AM on March 4, 2011

I think The Emperor of Ice Cream is right to call this a local interest topic. That said, I feel like anyone down this deep in the comments has some interest in the neighborhood, so...

Hoopo, I was just about to say the same thing regarding the "fratboy sportsbars." I feel like there are often fights at places where your typical top forty is being played, and often times it's those places where I feel most threatened. I've actually never seen a fight at Southpaw (pretty sure The Rub plays this Sat. if you want to see a hip-hop crowd in Park Slope). I've been punched on a random sidewalk in Stuy Town, and had friends get into brawls at The Park. It's NYC; it happens. Each place has their own vibe. I would feel much more comfortable at Deity on Atlantic, than the place next to Ceol on Smith. APT was never an issue, but sometimes at Sutra I feel like things could get a little rough. And each of these places plays hip-hop. Which to me means that it's not about the music. Let's wait and see what kind of a place C6 is going to be before we say it's a danger to the local residents.

rikschell, I've been lobbying for awhile now that anything above Union to be called TAPS (the Triangle Above Park Slope), but I don't think anyone is listening. Certainly it extends over to 4th these days, though in the past I think you could've made a good argument for anything past 5th being Gowanus.
posted by hue at 9:55 AM on March 4, 2011

Apparently this is a Hoax.
posted by JBennett at 10:10 AM on March 4, 2011

All this talk about genres that are highly correlated with violence reminds me of a concert promoter friend who stopped booking hardcore punk bands to local shows.

All of a sudden, he could hold concerts in a venue more than twice, because there hadn't been police involved, or something broken in the building, or an ambulance ride.
posted by wires at 10:34 AM on March 4, 2011

I've been to more hip hop shows than I have been to indie rock shows and can't recall seeing a fight. I have however seen fights over beer pong in sports bars.

This is straight up racism, reminds me of the time people around me protested a KFC near me because they claimed chicken bones left in the local parks would attract rats.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:42 AM on March 4, 2011

This is straight up racism, reminds me of the time people around me protested a KFC near me because they claimed chicken bones left in the local parks would attract rats.

wow, that comment was a mess. Should learn not to type half a comment, reply to email, then just type in some more random words and hit submit.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:45 AM on March 4, 2011

I walked by there two days ago and asked my girlfriend what the hell she thought Prime 6 is? From the logo, I presumed it was a real estate company. Little did I know its true identity: a future FPP on Metafilter.

(BTW: The old signage from the video store still offers a Lifetime Membership!)
posted by yeti at 11:19 AM on March 4, 2011

Brownstoner has picked up on some reporting that calls into question whether this is a a bad hoax. I'm inclined to think so. Everything about Prime 6 desperately makes it want to seem bigger than the rinky-dink operation it is. Seriously, no one in Park Slope cares about some crap-ass club on Flatbush across from what's currently a giant pit.
posted by mkultra at 12:47 PM on March 4, 2011

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but the hip-hop night at the club I DJ at requires two times the amount of security and there's more property damage during that one night of the week than the rest of the week combined.

Also, there are pretty much zero black people present at it.
posted by Jairus at 1:23 PM on March 4, 2011

That's interested, mkultra. It seemed pretty weird to me too, since the location is already next to the enemy (i.e. Atlantic Yards), that PS residents would care so much. Hoax or not, the petition struck a chord and ferreted out some real sentiments.
posted by 2bucksplus at 2:37 PM on March 4, 2011

*The least scholarly of the lot by far but included because "the heavy metal mice all killed one another.".

Also:

Dorothy Retallack tested the effects of various types of music on plants. She found that playing classic rock artists such as Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix and Vanilla Fudge caused the plants to grow in an unhealthy way, bend away from the speakers and die young. However, if we assume that plants can have musical preferences, it's possible that classic rock was not their music of choice.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:57 AM on March 6, 2011 [1 favorite]

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