I was there on my 33rd birthday, this past May. We were going to see Cirque du Soleil. I had just gotten my digital camera. We were taking pictures of everything, the Twin Towers, inside and out...there were tons of people there, shops, a piano player, palm trees...we were strolling through the Towers on our way to the ferry...
...dear God... posted by metrocake at 2:25 PM on September 12, 2001
CNN reports One Liberty Plaza is close to collapse. posted by metrocake at 2:26 PM on September 12, 2001
That might be a relief plane. Earlier today the FAA granted permission to fly a plane with blood and other supplies into the area. posted by scottandrew at 2:35 PM on September 12, 2001
CNN confirms a partial collapse at 1 Liberty, and they're showing windows and parts of the building peeling off. posted by hijinx at 2:36 PM on September 12, 2001
Was it this plane? (though I rather hope it was a relief plane) Spaceimaging.com posted by dabitch at 2:47 PM on September 12, 2001
After both showing the plane and being forced out of the area by a helicopter according to Fox News, neither network has spoken of it since. It seems to have been forgotten behind the 1 Liberty collapse and a press conference of Pataki, Schumer, Rangel and Clinton.
I'm trying to convince myself that the government would not allow those officials out in the open air if that plane posed any threat. But what did the government do to stop the attacks yesterday?
Jesus. I want out of this fucking hellhole. posted by Sinner at 2:52 PM on September 12, 2001
Oh please. If the government didn't know who that plane was, it would have been shot down immediately. Let's not all get paranoid, now. posted by jpoulos at 2:54 PM on September 12, 2001
As an example of how quickly unauthorized planes have been addressed today, some idiot around here (Fort Worth, TX) apparently took off in a private Cessna, and quickly escorted down by two F-16s.
I can personally confirm the F-16s in the air, the details of the Cessna were given by local radio. posted by SiW at 3:22 PM on September 12, 2001
Metrocake, your photo of the arch is in the WinterGarden mall across the West Side Highway from where the WTC was. The pedestrian bridge connecting to that building was crushed and I'm sure most of those windows are broken, but it's still standing. This is about a five minute walk away from the base of where the north tower was. posted by joemaller at 4:39 PM on September 12, 2001
Sinner, you are showing signs of stress and you need some professional counseling. I am very serious, you need to get some help. try: (212) 532-2400
New Yorkers and Washingtonians have been traumtized. Seek counseling. Yesterday’s events are effecting you even if you aren’t showing outward signs of stress.
The attacks are over. posted by raaka at 4:54 PM on September 12, 2001
But what did the government do to stop the attacks yesterday?
Well, I personally believe that they shot down that plane in Pennsylvania. There were at least 3 phone calls to 911 or the FBI alerting them of the hijacking. If you think the plane is headed to DC, the prudent thing to do is to shoot it down over a rural area. Did you see how quickly they cleaned that place up?
Of course, you can't tell people that you shot down their loved ones, but it's the smart thing to do. posted by jpoulos at 5:09 PM on September 12, 2001
Unless the "feds" got there and cleaned it up REALLY quick (like 30 seconds), some of these people would have seen something suspicious. (Well, more suspicious than a jumbo jet crashing into a strip mine....) Plus, nobody has reported any kind of military activity--planes, missles, etc.
That is, unless all these people are government "plants"....
Nobody shot that plane down. posted by arco at 5:17 PM on September 12, 2001
Indeed, there are enough eyewitnesses to the crash to disprove your proposition about the PA plane, jpoulos, but I do believe that if there had been other identifiably hijacked planes yesterday that shooting them down would have been the preferred course of action. And there would have been no time to cover that up. posted by briank at 5:24 PM on September 12, 2001
As an example of how quickly unauthorized planes have been addressed today, some idiot around here (Fort Worth, TX) apparently took off in a private Cessna, and quickly escorted down by two F-16s.
I can personally confirm the F-16s in the air, the details of the Cessna were given by local radio.
Word for word the same exact thing happened in Ann Arbor, Michigan today. Everyone ran outside when they heard the F-16s. I know it should be comforting, but it was rather disconcerting knowing these guys weren't on any training mission. posted by briggsb at 5:28 PM on September 12, 2001
I think the plane in question was the plane on which the Senators Schumer & Clinton arrived. posted by riffola at 5:31 PM on September 12, 2001
Nobody shot that plane down.
I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist (especially have just chastised some others for being "paranoid"). I have nothing but a hunch that they shot it down, so I can't really defend it, but I'll point this out:
1. The plane was hundreds of miles from DC. It was probably cruising at 30,000 feet. If it were shot down at that altitude, no one would see another aircraft.
2. The plane was "turned to charcoal" upon impact. There was nothing "suspicious" to see.
I don't know which scenario I would prefer. Part of me would like to believe that there were hero-passengers on that plane. Another part would like to believe that the military wasn't completely helpless. posted by jpoulos at 5:45 PM on September 12, 2001
Joemaller,
You're right, of course. This map helped me make more sense of what I saw -- but, so you know, then *all* of the windows were broken. From the shot I saw on television, you could see the Winter Garden arch, but *nothing* behind it from the angle of the shot.
It was harsh enough to make both my husband and I gasp with dismayed recognition... posted by metrocake at 6:33 PM on September 12, 2001
raaka - i appreciate your concern, but i'm watching as the empire state building is evacuated right now. it is very concerned here, and the line between vigilance and paranoia is vanishingly slim.
at some point after this, yes, i might seek some counseling. everyone should. but currently, knowing what people have gone through - i've lost no friends of my own, just friends of friends of friends - there are people in far greater need than myself.
i will bend quite far in all this - and visibly have already - but feel pretty certain i won't break. posted by Sinner at 7:45 PM on September 12, 2001
Jpoulos - the obliteration of the jumbojet is quite simple.
Most plane crashes we've seen leave behind long tracts of debris from a plane that struck almost parallel to the ground.
It has been reported that Flight 93 hit the ground nose first. Nose first, with a full tank of gas.
Considering that the explosions and fires from the planes that hit the WTC caused the steel supports to melt and collapse, I don't find it hard to believe the plane that crashed in Somerset was incinerated from its high speed dive into an immovable object -- namely, the ground. posted by linux at 9:06 PM on September 12, 2001
Jpoulos - the obliteration of the jumbojet is quite simple
I don't doubt that at all. My point about the plane "turning to charcoal" was in response to the suggestion that, if the plane had been shot down, an impossibly fast cleanup would have been necessary to remove "suspicious" evidence.
Again, I have no way of knowing what really happened. Either scenario makes sense. posted by jpoulos at 9:29 PM on September 12, 2001
The first tower was attacked at 8:45 am. The PA plane didn't go down until 10:10. That's nearly an hour and a half. Plenty of time to get the fighters in the sky.
OK. Let's examine this. The plane hit the ground at full speed, in an apparent full nose dive. How does something like that happen? It's safe to assume that either:
A. Somebody at the controls was forcing the plane directly toward the ground, in an apparent suicide dive. Or
B. The plane had been shot down and was falling to the ground.
We can also assume that either:
A. The passengers/crew had managed to overpower the hijackers. Or
B. They didn't.
If the passengers weren't able to overcome the hijackers, how on earth did one of them gain control of the airplane long enough to take it from extreme altitude to the ground? It takes time to get to the ground from 35,000 feet. That's 6 and a half MILES in the sky. Even at speeds of 200 miles an hour (which I don't think they can achieve), it would take a full 2 minutes to reach the ground.
Now, if the passengers overpowered the hijackers, why make the suicide dive? Why not try to land the plane? It's valiant to sacrifice oneself to save a potential government target, but if they had taken out the terrorists, there was no need to ensure the death of everyone on board.
The most likely scenario, it seems to me, is that the plane was shot down at high altitude. posted by jpoulos at 8:00 AM on September 13, 2001
If the plane was shot down from a high altitude, then numerous local eyewitnesses would not have been able to remark that a fully intact jumbo jet passed over their homes, farms and businesses at a firghteningly low altitude and smashed quickly into the ground with a resulting huge fireball. The plane was not on fire nor visibly damaged during its descent according to any of the dozens of people who have been sharing their stories with the local media -- regular, everyday citizens in two tiny little rural towns who have absolutely no reason to lie.
This is so not the time to trot out meaningless conspiracy theories. I am beside myself trying to figure out why you're so hellbent on insisting that all of the eyewitnesses are wrong or lying and that your determination must be correct. Just stop it. Stop it. It doesn't matter.
There are 40 people dead in that hole in that strip mine an hour from where I sit, and how they got there has nothing to do with missiles or government cover-ups. It has to do with terrorist assh*les who think that they have the right to end other peoples' lives to fulfill their sick agenda. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from pointing fingers and letting imagination run wild, creating scenarios out of thin air and supposition. You don't know anything. You weren't there, you didn't see what happened, so just stop fabricating and ruminating. Expend your energies on doing something positive. posted by Dreama at 8:23 AM on September 13, 2001
Take a friggin' pill, dreama. Everything's fine. This is a friendly discussion. I don't claim to know either way. I'm openly admitting that I'm speculating. And I'm certainly not "hellbent on insisting that all of the eyewitnesses are wrong or lying".
I understand people are upset. Maybe it was calllous of me to suggest that maybe CNN doesn't have all the facts. I'll stop now. posted by jpoulos at 9:59 AM on September 13, 2001
jpoulos -- you're baiting people into a ludicrous argument, and you know it. Just stop. posted by briank at 10:38 AM on September 13, 2001
Honestly, I'm not baiting. NPR just reported that small pieces of the plane have been found miles away from the wreckage, and "no one knows" how they could have gotten there.
I'm not trying to argue that the plane was shot down. I do not know. I'm just presenting a theory, and now some incongruous facts that have emerged. posted by jpoulos at 11:08 AM on September 13, 2001
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The skies are supposed to be completely clear with f16's flying. Where are they?
posted by Sinner at 2:10 PM on September 12, 2001