Sorry, it was only two cups.
April 17, 2011 10:50 AM Subscribe
Author Greg Mortenson who wrote Three Cups of Tea is facing claims that key stories in the book are false. "It's a beautiful story. And it's a lie," author Jon Krakauer is quoted by CBS as saying.
Krakauer, also a climber and, according to the network, a former donor to Mortensen's charity, tells CBS News investigator Steve Kroft that a "close friend" of Mortensen's says, "Greg never heard of (the village of) Korphe until a year" after the failed attempt to climb K2.
Krakauer, also a writer of outdoor adventure stories and endless self-promotor, is maybe not the best person to offer a fair perspective on a successful competitor (and better writer.)
posted by three blind mice at 11:01 AM on April 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Krakauer, also a writer of outdoor adventure stories and endless self-promotor, is maybe not the best person to offer a fair perspective on a successful competitor (and better writer.)
posted by three blind mice at 11:01 AM on April 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Yeah - much as I love Jon Krakauer's writing, he's come under enough fire for questionable truths in his writing that I don't know if he's got the moral high ground to be calling other people out.
posted by ChuraChura at 11:07 AM on April 17, 2011
posted by ChuraChura at 11:07 AM on April 17, 2011
There are few guilty pleasures greater than fact-checking your Mom. Mine, she gave me this book recently with a very Mom-ish recommendation.
TIME TO SEND HER AN EMAIL. BUHAHAHAH
love you mom
posted by special agent conrad uno at 11:12 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
TIME TO SEND HER AN EMAIL. BUHAHAHAH
love you mom
posted by special agent conrad uno at 11:12 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
I really like Krakauer's writing a lot, but if I recall correctly, he's not only had a few problems with his own stories, a number of them focus on the problem of remaining lucid and correctly oriented when doing high-altitude climbing.
And while it wouldn't surprise me too much if the narrative Mortenson has come to rely on has some problems, it's not really in question that CAI has actually done a good deal of solid work, is it?
posted by weston at 11:15 AM on April 17, 2011
And while it wouldn't surprise me too much if the narrative Mortenson has come to rely on has some problems, it's not really in question that CAI has actually done a good deal of solid work, is it?
posted by weston at 11:15 AM on April 17, 2011
it's not really in question that CAI has actually done a good deal of solid work, is it?
No, I don't think it is. And the fact that Mortensen's response focused largely on a defense of CAI makes it seem to me that he's trying to obscure the issue.
posted by skewed at 11:19 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
No, I don't think it is. And the fact that Mortensen's response focused largely on a defense of CAI makes it seem to me that he's trying to obscure the issue.
posted by skewed at 11:19 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
correction, there are questions about how much good CAI has done, since according to CBS, some of the schools he claims CAI built are empty, nonexistant or built by some other party.
I'll admit a bit of schadenfreude, since I felt the book was just a jumble of manipulative purple prose for a good cause. Definitely want to see the 60 Minutes report.
posted by skewed at 11:26 AM on April 17, 2011
I'll admit a bit of schadenfreude, since I felt the book was just a jumble of manipulative purple prose for a good cause. Definitely want to see the 60 Minutes report.
posted by skewed at 11:26 AM on April 17, 2011
Maybe I'm alone in this, but I never, ever take self-accounts at face value. In an apparent paradox, I prefer memoirs/accounts/bios by non-participants. I say paradox, because isn't the most powerful retort to a telling of a tale "I should know, I was there"? The problem to me, is that anything you are involved in necessarily distorts your perspective - I don't mean you are going to consciously lie (although this happens more often than we know, I'm sure), but that this is simply how perception and memory work. In this way, I love reading autobiographies - for fun. But if I want to get at the facts, I prefer a good solid scholarly biography, because it puts the tale in the same place I am in - as an outsider. Yes, biographers are limited by their sources, abilities, diligence and biases, but their work is verifiable in a way a self-account is not.
So, in this case, as with an self-account, I always read it with this in my mind as to veracity "maybe". I'm astonished that anyone would do anything else. I am therefore subsequently unsurprised should discrepancies be discovered. This general attitude is to me as much a default with published accounts as with random stories one is regaled with at dinner - your grandpa, my uncle, the old soldier reminiscing about a war half a century ago, or a young child who appeared with a cookie after visiting the pantry.
posted by VikingSword at 11:27 AM on April 17, 2011 [15 favorites]
So, in this case, as with an self-account, I always read it with this in my mind as to veracity "maybe". I'm astonished that anyone would do anything else. I am therefore subsequently unsurprised should discrepancies be discovered. This general attitude is to me as much a default with published accounts as with random stories one is regaled with at dinner - your grandpa, my uncle, the old soldier reminiscing about a war half a century ago, or a young child who appeared with a cookie after visiting the pantry.
posted by VikingSword at 11:27 AM on April 17, 2011 [15 favorites]
I'm going to take a weird stance and say, Who cares?
Just like James Frey's A Million Little Pieces, most people aren't reading these as hard hitting journalism. They are reading it for an amazing story. It's going to be subjective truth no matter how you spin it.
Just like Stone's JFK or the new TV series on the Kennedys, anyone walling away thinking they have all the facts and that nothing was misrepresented is being silly.
Movies do this all the time. Whether they say "based on a true story" or not most people don't watch films with a media literacy bent. They are watching or reading to be entertained. If the story is plausible then they file it away in the part of the brain that looks for "truths." If it's outlandish (no matter how real) it gets flagged as "myth."
Or What VikingSword said. (So not alone.)
posted by cjorgensen at 11:28 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Just like James Frey's A Million Little Pieces, most people aren't reading these as hard hitting journalism. They are reading it for an amazing story. It's going to be subjective truth no matter how you spin it.
Just like Stone's JFK or the new TV series on the Kennedys, anyone walling away thinking they have all the facts and that nothing was misrepresented is being silly.
Movies do this all the time. Whether they say "based on a true story" or not most people don't watch films with a media literacy bent. They are watching or reading to be entertained. If the story is plausible then they file it away in the part of the brain that looks for "truths." If it's outlandish (no matter how real) it gets flagged as "myth."
Or What VikingSword said. (So not alone.)
posted by cjorgensen at 11:28 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Apparently CAI's work actually is being questioned. That AP article says: "The '60 Minutes' report alleges that numerous schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan that Mortenson's Central Asia Institute is said to have established either don't exist or were built by others."
That's a much more serious charge than contradictions to his personal journey. I agree with what VikingSword and cjorgensen are saying I like it better when people's narratives stick as close to the facts as humanly possible, but I understand how this works (and it's probably worse if you bring in a co-author). But saying CAI is claiming schools built that either don't exist or are built by others... that's pretty heavy, maybe even fraud.
All the articles in the post seem to be pretty lean on the evidence that backs up these assertions. Is there anywhere where the meat of the accusations is discussed?
posted by weston at 11:34 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
That's a much more serious charge than contradictions to his personal journey. I agree with what VikingSword and cjorgensen are saying I like it better when people's narratives stick as close to the facts as humanly possible, but I understand how this works (and it's probably worse if you bring in a co-author). But saying CAI is claiming schools built that either don't exist or are built by others... that's pretty heavy, maybe even fraud.
All the articles in the post seem to be pretty lean on the evidence that backs up these assertions. Is there anywhere where the meat of the accusations is discussed?
posted by weston at 11:34 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think that's a big of a strawman, cjorgensen and VikingSword. Few people think autobiographies or memoirs are objective accounts of reality. If he claims he was kidnapped but that turns out to be an exaggeration, that's not going to get a 60 Minutes piece. Same with the exact timing of the stories. If a significant number of the schools he claims to have built are not actually functioning schools, that's a big deal, it means he's a fraud. And the whole point of his story was that it was true, or at least largely based in reality. People wouldn't be amazed by his story if he presented it as a novel. It's not that interesting, it only makes for a good story if you think it actually happens.
posted by skewed at 11:35 AM on April 17, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by skewed at 11:35 AM on April 17, 2011 [10 favorites]
There's a difference to me between an organization not doing what it claims and a book covering things that perhaps didn't happen.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:04 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by cjorgensen at 12:04 PM on April 17, 2011
Jon Krakauer is an excellent writer and reporter and, as far as I know, he's never been accused of making stuff up. He's been accused of getting things wrong, which is an entirely different charge. Ethical journalists don't make stuff up but everyone gets something wrong from time to time. Especially if you are on the top of a mountain where people's perceptions are altered by altitude and lack of oxygen.
This is different and it matters for the same reason that James Frey's crap matters—if it's not true, it's pointing to fake solutions and promoting ideas that are based on what we imagine and on conventional wisdom, rather than on what's really going on.
Frey's nonsense, for example, promoted the idea that addicts are more likely to relapse if they are given adequate pain medication than if they are tortured (AKA the fake root canal scene). This is stupid and promotes poor treatment. Oh yeah, and it reinforced the lovely stereotype of all addicts as scummy liars, even about their own stories. As well as giving the "AA is the one true way" people reinforcement in that false belief as he crashed trying to do it "his way."
posted by Maias at 12:16 PM on April 17, 2011 [16 favorites]
This is different and it matters for the same reason that James Frey's crap matters—if it's not true, it's pointing to fake solutions and promoting ideas that are based on what we imagine and on conventional wisdom, rather than on what's really going on.
Frey's nonsense, for example, promoted the idea that addicts are more likely to relapse if they are given adequate pain medication than if they are tortured (AKA the fake root canal scene). This is stupid and promotes poor treatment. Oh yeah, and it reinforced the lovely stereotype of all addicts as scummy liars, even about their own stories. As well as giving the "AA is the one true way" people reinforcement in that false belief as he crashed trying to do it "his way."
posted by Maias at 12:16 PM on April 17, 2011 [16 favorites]
Maybe I'm alone in this, but I never, ever take self-accounts at face value.
Me too, sort of. But I don't go in assuming that the author is just flat-out making shit up. Remembering selectively? Sure. Telling the story as they remember it (and that may not click exactly with how other people remember it)? Of course. But "I built a school," is not not really that open to interpretation - either you built the school, or you didn't. I do think that that kind of thing matters. I don't care if Tuedays with Morrie was actually Saturday Mornings with Morrie, but there had better have been a Morrie to begin with.
posted by rtha at 12:20 PM on April 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
Me too, sort of. But I don't go in assuming that the author is just flat-out making shit up. Remembering selectively? Sure. Telling the story as they remember it (and that may not click exactly with how other people remember it)? Of course. But "I built a school," is not not really that open to interpretation - either you built the school, or you didn't. I do think that that kind of thing matters. I don't care if Tuedays with Morrie was actually Saturday Mornings with Morrie, but there had better have been a Morrie to begin with.
posted by rtha at 12:20 PM on April 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
"The '60 Minutes' report alleges that numerous schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan that Mortenson's Central Asia Institute is said to have established either don't exist or were built by others."
That's serious. Who cares about the literary merits. CAI needs to be investigated, check for fraud, etc.. it impacts not only CAI, but all charities when one high profile case reduces public trust.
posted by stbalbach at 12:23 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
That's serious. Who cares about the literary merits. CAI needs to be investigated, check for fraud, etc.. it impacts not only CAI, but all charities when one high profile case reduces public trust.
posted by stbalbach at 12:23 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hello, I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer . . . is no.
posted by crush-onastick at 12:28 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by crush-onastick at 12:28 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
I have read two of Jon Krakauer's books: Into Thin Air and Into the Wild. Both good and interesting books. Part of what makes his books interesting is how much Krakauer reveals of his own prejudices and limitations (which he seems oddly unaware of). I would not consider him an historian, concerned with what actually happened, but an essayist, concerned with expressing his own ideas.
posted by SPrintF at 12:53 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 12:53 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
But if I want to get at the facts, I prefer a good solid scholarly biography
Scholars can have just as much of an agenda -- personal, political, etc. -- as anyone else. They distort things, consciously or otherwise, all the time. I read memoirs very judiciously myself, but I would never assume that a biography would be more factual.
posted by hermitosis at 1:21 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Scholars can have just as much of an agenda -- personal, political, etc. -- as anyone else. They distort things, consciously or otherwise, all the time. I read memoirs very judiciously myself, but I would never assume that a biography would be more factual.
posted by hermitosis at 1:21 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, and it reinforced the lovely stereotype of all addicts as scummy liars, even about their own stories.
Does Frey even count as an addict? Wasn't he just your archetypal fratboy binge drinker/coke snorter who recognized the depraved addiction memoir as an easy route to publication?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:26 PM on April 17, 2011
Does Frey even count as an addict? Wasn't he just your archetypal fratboy binge drinker/coke snorter who recognized the depraved addiction memoir as an easy route to publication?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:26 PM on April 17, 2011
I hope this can be clarified, because the Tea book has policy implications -- it says that development projects in the region should be like this, not that. Those are things that affect people's lives, and how scarce resources are spent. It's not just someone maybe stretching the truth about themself a little.
posted by Forktine at 1:27 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Forktine at 1:27 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
"Everyone's memory is subjective. If in three weeks we were both interviewed about what went on here tonight, we would both probably have very, very different stories." ~ James Frey
posted by Fizz at 1:29 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by Fizz at 1:29 PM on April 17, 2011
Another big international school project meltdown? Wasn't it just yesterday that Madonna's Raise Malawi project collapsed under it's affiliation with Kabbalah Center International?
posted by hippybear at 1:39 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by hippybear at 1:39 PM on April 17, 2011
The point about the relationship between memoirs and truth is one of good faith. James Frey is guilty of a breach of ethics not because he didn't live up to some "objective" standard of truth, or because memoirists through history haven't greatly elaborated their experiences, etc, but because he knew how his claims would be received by most of his readers and he was happy to make money and celebrity from that, while knowing that most readers would consider themselves deceived were they to discover the real relationship between his claims and his experiences. Same goes in this case if the evidence is persuasive.
Krakauer... is maybe not the best person to offer a fair perspective on a successful competitor (and better writer.)
I am honestly a bit speechless about this. You're saying you think the overwrought Mortensen ghostwritten/collaborative prose is better written than, say, Into The Wild?
posted by oliverburkeman at 1:40 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Krakauer... is maybe not the best person to offer a fair perspective on a successful competitor (and better writer.)
I am honestly a bit speechless about this. You're saying you think the overwrought Mortensen ghostwritten/collaborative prose is better written than, say, Into The Wild?
posted by oliverburkeman at 1:40 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Why the focus on Krakauer in this thread? He's just one person 60 Minutes spoke with regarding their investigation. Read their web article (the FPPs last link) and then watch their segment tonight. There seems to be quite a bit of sketchiness going on regarding Mortenson and CAI.
FWIW -- Krakauer was a former supporter of Mortenson and donor to his nonprofit -- as outlined in all of the articles mentioned in the FPP. He later became disillusioned with Mortenson and CAI.
... it's not really in question that CAI has actually done a good deal of solid work, is it?
FWIW -- Krakauer was a former supporter of Mortenson and donor to his nonprofit -- as outlined in all of the articles mentioned in the FPP. He later became disillusioned with Mortenson and CAI.
... it's not really in question that CAI has actually done a good deal of solid work, is it?
"Central Asia Institute, has spent more money in the U.S. talking about education in Pakistan and Afghanistan than actually building and supporting schools there, according to an analysis of the organization's last financial report.posted by ericb at 2:22 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
A charity watchdog group expresses concern that money donors have given to build schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan is actually being used to promote Mortenson's books.
... Kroft also interviews Daniel Borochoff, president of the American Institute of Philanthropy, who raises serious questions about the financial management of the Central Asia Institute, CAI. In its fiscal 2009 financial report, CAI said it spent $1.7 million 'on book-related expenses,' which is more than it spent on all of its schools in Pakistan that year.
'You would hope that they would be spending a lot more on the schools in Pakistan than they would on book-related costs,' says Borochoff. 'Why doesn't Mr. Mortenson spend his own money on the book-related costs? He's the one getting the revenues,' Borochoff tells Kroft.
'60 Minutes' also checked on schools that CAI claims to have built in Pakistan and Afghanistan and found that some of them were empty, built by somebody else, or simply didn't exist at all. The principals of a number of schools said they had not received any money from CAI in years.
Krakauer says a former board member of CAI told him he should stop giving money to Mortenson's charity years ago. 'In 2002, [Mortenson's] board treasurer quit, resigned, along with the board president and two other board members...he said, in so many words, that Greg uses Central Asia Institute as his private ATM machine. That there's no accounting. He has no receipts,' says Krakauer."
It's going to be subjective truth no matter how you spin it.
There is a difference between a subjective truth and a lie. If it's fiction, market it as fiction. If you got creative with autobiographical details, market it as a fictionalized journal.
Once you say "This is my experience of what happened to me," I don't mind if it's subjective, but if you're just making shit up, you're conning your reader. And anybody who argues that Frey's book was satisfying as fiction hasn't read it. It's barely satisfying as nonfiction.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:29 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
There is a difference between a subjective truth and a lie. If it's fiction, market it as fiction. If you got creative with autobiographical details, market it as a fictionalized journal.
Once you say "This is my experience of what happened to me," I don't mind if it's subjective, but if you're just making shit up, you're conning your reader. And anybody who argues that Frey's book was satisfying as fiction hasn't read it. It's barely satisfying as nonfiction.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:29 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Came in to say pretty much exactly what Astro Zombie said. James Frey seriously annoys me. Write what you want, but if it's fiction, say it's fiction! I don't see what the problem is with doing that -- you're just creating problems for yourself otherwise. Don't purposefully mislabel your writing and then whine when people call you on it.
posted by Put the kettle on at 2:40 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by Put the kettle on at 2:40 PM on April 17, 2011
American Institute of Philanthropy: Nobel Prize Nominee's Charity Wins No Award for Accountability .
posted by ericb at 2:43 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 2:43 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Autobiography is only to be trusted when it reveals something
disgraceful. A man who gives a good account of himself is probably lying,
since any life when viewed from the inside is simply a series of defeats.
However, even the most flagrantly dishonest book (Frank Harris's
autobiographical writings are an example) can without intending it give a
true picture of its author."
-George Orwell in the first paragraph of Benefit of Clergy: Some Notes on Salvador Dali
posted by Blasdelb at 2:44 PM on April 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
disgraceful. A man who gives a good account of himself is probably lying,
since any life when viewed from the inside is simply a series of defeats.
However, even the most flagrantly dishonest book (Frank Harris's
autobiographical writings are an example) can without intending it give a
true picture of its author."
-George Orwell in the first paragraph of Benefit of Clergy: Some Notes on Salvador Dali
posted by Blasdelb at 2:44 PM on April 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
"Everyone's memory is subjective. If in three weeks we were both interviewed about what went on here tonight, we would both probably have very, very different stories." ~ James Frey
That's no excuse for being such an awful fucking writer.
posted by jonmc at 3:35 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
That's no excuse for being such an awful fucking writer.
posted by jonmc at 3:35 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Just like James Frey's A Million Little Pieces, most people aren't reading these as hard hitting journalism.
That's nonsense. Yes they are. People read 3COT and they think 'wow what a great story, look what one guy can accomplish just reaching out to people'. His book was very clearly a call to arms: this is how you turn Afghanistan/Pakistan around: education, not war.
Much like Million Little Pieces (or, fuck, even say Blair Witch Project or Paranormal Activity) the book loses a lot if not all of its impact if it is fiction.
posted by graventy at 3:57 PM on April 17, 2011
That's nonsense. Yes they are. People read 3COT and they think 'wow what a great story, look what one guy can accomplish just reaching out to people'. His book was very clearly a call to arms: this is how you turn Afghanistan/Pakistan around: education, not war.
Much like Million Little Pieces (or, fuck, even say Blair Witch Project or Paranormal Activity) the book loses a lot if not all of its impact if it is fiction.
posted by graventy at 3:57 PM on April 17, 2011
60 minutes is eating him alive tonight. Looks super shady. He's probably going to have to go on Oprah and apologize.
posted by jenkinsEar at 4:12 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by jenkinsEar at 4:12 PM on April 17, 2011
Ugh, Last time that happened, the audience was asked to look under their seats, and each of them got little pieces of James Frey to take home with them.
I GOT A MILLION OF THEM, FOLKS.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:22 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
I GOT A MILLION OF THEM, FOLKS.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:22 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Also, after all of Frey's macho posturing, was anybody else amused by his sniveling weak-ass nebbish speaking voice?
posted by jonmc at 4:22 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by jonmc at 4:22 PM on April 17, 2011
I never, ever take self-accounts at face value.
Well, sure, but there are legitimate questions of degree and circs and how deliberate the misdirection is. Persiflage for will o' the wisps like, say, Bruce Chatwin, is one thing. When what you're doing is supposedly in furtherance of a Big Cause, well, it kind of loses its charm, and makes the inevitable unmasking all the more shabby. And unfortunate, the more so if your day job relies on a reputation for integrity.
(Haven't read the book - were the allegedly bogus bits all that vital to its worth?)
posted by IndigoJones at 4:47 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, sure, but there are legitimate questions of degree and circs and how deliberate the misdirection is. Persiflage for will o' the wisps like, say, Bruce Chatwin, is one thing. When what you're doing is supposedly in furtherance of a Big Cause, well, it kind of loses its charm, and makes the inevitable unmasking all the more shabby. And unfortunate, the more so if your day job relies on a reputation for integrity.
(Haven't read the book - were the allegedly bogus bits all that vital to its worth?)
posted by IndigoJones at 4:47 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I just watched the '60 Minutes' interview. Yeah -- some very shady behavior on Mortenson's part.
FWIW -- in the '60 Minutes' piece former supporter and early donor, Jon Krakauer, compliments Mortenson on the 'good works' he's done with his non-profit, but is concerned that the lying and alleged fraud could destroy the work he has already done, as well as that to come.
posted by ericb at 4:56 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
FWIW -- in the '60 Minutes' piece former supporter and early donor, Jon Krakauer, compliments Mortenson on the 'good works' he's done with his non-profit, but is concerned that the lying and alleged fraud could destroy the work he has already done, as well as that to come.
posted by ericb at 4:56 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm a little fuzzy on the Krakauer pile-on myself. I've read his books, and what struck me most about Into Thin Air was his willingness to own up to the mistakes that he made, both in the magazine articles (which I went back and read) and in the paperback edition of the book. If anything, I would imagine his experience with his account and the errors he made would make him a more cautious writer.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:03 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Ghidorah at 5:03 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also watched the 60 Minutes piece. Resigning board members - never a good sign.
posted by R. Mutt at 5:23 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by R. Mutt at 5:23 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Krakauer's not afraid to name names and piss off people in his books; Into Thin Air criticized a number of people who were on Everest that deadly day (one of them, Anatoli Boukreev, who Krakauer criticized for working as a guide without using bottled oxygen, ended up putting out his own book in response), and a number of Mormons were offended by Under the Banner of Heaven; the LDS criticized the book before it was published. (Krakauer is pretty good at acknowledging when he's made factual mistakes.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:35 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:35 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm a little fuzzy on the Krakauer pile-on myself. I've read his books, and what struck me most about Into Thin Air was his willingness to own up to the mistakes that he made
This is why I was initially critical. The first couple of links I read seem focused on Mortenson's narrative of what happened to him. Given what he's written, Krakauer should know how malleable that can be even with integrity and good intentions, and I don't care too much if the story Mortenson chooses to tell others (or has in his head) about how he first developed relationships with villagers in Pakistan is particularly accurate.
So, yeah. That's where I saw Krakauer's reported criticism targeted, and I was thinking "that guy should know better."
Seeing the other links develop the concerns about CAI's activities and how it uses its money... it makes a lot more sense.
posted by weston at 5:53 PM on April 17, 2011
This is why I was initially critical. The first couple of links I read seem focused on Mortenson's narrative of what happened to him. Given what he's written, Krakauer should know how malleable that can be even with integrity and good intentions, and I don't care too much if the story Mortenson chooses to tell others (or has in his head) about how he first developed relationships with villagers in Pakistan is particularly accurate.
So, yeah. That's where I saw Krakauer's reported criticism targeted, and I was thinking "that guy should know better."
Seeing the other links develop the concerns about CAI's activities and how it uses its money... it makes a lot more sense.
posted by weston at 5:53 PM on April 17, 2011
I saw Mortenson give a lecture right after the book came out and asked some questions (about who decides what's taught at these schools and does it endanger the girls, etc.) and he struck me as super defensive and dismissive (how dare I ask such questions!). He came across as disingenuous to me then, and I'm not surprised to hear this about him.
posted by airgirl at 6:16 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by airgirl at 6:16 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
I read Three Cups and am saddened to read the CBS story. I have the impression that at base he has done good but he started to smoke the tea instead of just drinking it. Like many story-tellers, he probably found that little changes in the story helped make his audience happy. Who can argue with that? He probably didn't even realize how far he had gotten from the truth.
Maybe a kick in the ass will put him back on the right path.
posted by notmtwain at 6:59 PM on April 17, 2011
Maybe a kick in the ass will put him back on the right path.
posted by notmtwain at 6:59 PM on April 17, 2011
Three Cups was more or less mandatory reading before coming over here, and I wondered aloud at the time, given the security situation, how many of those schools were still open. They all are, I was told. Of course they are. How dare you, sir.
This is the same kind of thing that somebody more coherent than me pointed out about Frey's book: It says something we're desperate to hear. That if we pump not money, and certainly not bullets but our sweet, sweet love and understanding into these villages, they'll love us in return. Or at least stop trying to blow us up.
I guess, amidst the sea of people profiting off this thing, one more isn't surprising. What is kind of surprising is that this trope took off, and that it is being used to try to make policy. I wonder if Mortenson cringes at least a little when he reads that yesterday, for instance, ten guys got blown up while having tea with some local leaders.
posted by atchafalaya at 7:28 PM on April 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
This is the same kind of thing that somebody more coherent than me pointed out about Frey's book: It says something we're desperate to hear. That if we pump not money, and certainly not bullets but our sweet, sweet love and understanding into these villages, they'll love us in return. Or at least stop trying to blow us up.
I guess, amidst the sea of people profiting off this thing, one more isn't surprising. What is kind of surprising is that this trope took off, and that it is being used to try to make policy. I wonder if Mortenson cringes at least a little when he reads that yesterday, for instance, ten guys got blown up while having tea with some local leaders.
posted by atchafalaya at 7:28 PM on April 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
atchafalaya, if I could favorite your post a billion times, I would. That is exactly it. People are making distinctions about how somebody lied vs merely misremembered. Of whatever value we find that distinction, the distinction has one distinction: it differs from reality. Either way, it departs from the truth. I find it very, very difficult to accept that it should come as any kind of shock that people make things up in ways large and small and outrageously large, intentionally and unintentionally. Why, I find it shocking, absolutely shocking that there's gambling - tall-tale-telling going on here. People on death row who actually have committed murder have convinced themselves that they have not. The powers of belief, self-persuasion and psychological need to see a given narrative all conspire to make such cases utterly unsurprising. And people lie, lie relentlessly. Virtually any movie that's "based on a true story" to me is merely marketing. I still remember vividly my friend recommending Ted Demme's "Blow" because 'it's based on a real story'. I practically fell off my chair - a tale told by a criminal in prison as interpreted by a film-dirctor - the mind boggles... it's like he doesn't realize that for any given inmate's tale is likely to be 99% BS. People say things like they are disappointed by Frey lying. Well, I counter, if you believed him at any point, and worse, drew conclusion about what policies might be effective based upon this book, you are a dope. Do you realize how many books out there were written as allegedly true accounts of this and that, written exclusively to influence public opinion in some direction or another, all based on complete and often incoherent fiction? Where there is zero evidence one way or another, only people's say-so, you've got to be an utter fool to put any emotional weight into presuming truth-telling. Even when the stakes are not personal, people make up stuff - we've had expose after expose of journalists completely making up shit. I repeat, again - when I read any unverifiable account, my default - default - position is to suspend judgment - to me it's a tale, and nothing else. The truth value of it is - unknown. That seems to me the only sane way to proceed. And frankly, I think most people need to hone their bullshit detector. I read so many things that strike me as highly implausible, and yet people fall for such stuff time and again. It's like the Nigerian 419 scams are being taken seriously - and guess what, they are, often enough to make it an industry. If you find any of this shocking, maybe you should get out more.
posted by VikingSword at 7:56 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by VikingSword at 7:56 PM on April 17, 2011
Like Krakauer said at the end of the interview, it's not like Mortenson is Bernie Madoff, and the CAI undoubtedly has done some good things in the region, but why did he prevaricate? Why did he say they built eleven schools when they had only built three in a particular region? Why exaggerate? Three is pretty damn good. Why lie about being kidnapped by the Taliban? (That actually raised some flags for me when I read the book, which was by no means well written) That's just downright hurtful. I don't even care as much about the misappropriation of funds from the CAI as I do about how much he has undermined a fantastic cause, for what? Self aggrandizement? Money? What?
posted by msali at 8:30 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by msali at 8:30 PM on April 17, 2011
The part that bugs me is not the initial story, which set off my BS detectors when I first saw the introductory film at my local diversity advocacy group, nor the dissembling about the accomplishments of the charity, which is a sort of commonplace in this sector. It's the fact that he is taken seriously by the Pentagon. His books are said to be "required reading", he has reportedly been invited to the Pentagon, and has been consulted by Gen. McChrystal.
It doesn't surprise me that the military is relying on yet another charlatan, but it does frustrate me that we now have yet another real example of a fake-ish do-gooder discrediting the less gun-oriented options we might have in Afghanistan or another counter-revolutionary warfare instance.
posted by dhartung at 1:05 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
It doesn't surprise me that the military is relying on yet another charlatan, but it does frustrate me that we now have yet another real example of a fake-ish do-gooder discrediting the less gun-oriented options we might have in Afghanistan or another counter-revolutionary warfare instance.
posted by dhartung at 1:05 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I couldn't make it all the way through this book due to the dullness of the tone, which struck me as full of hero-worship and not at all compelling as the man apparently had no faults and was a saint, a SAINT I SAY as depicted in the book. Blurgh. In any case, this news comes as no surprise.
posted by Poagao at 2:22 AM on April 18, 2011
posted by Poagao at 2:22 AM on April 18, 2011
Last year I asked an Englishman who has lived in northern Pakistan for decades and set up a few schools, what he knew of Greg Mortenson. This 90 year old legend of a man replied, "I've asked a lot of people up north about these schools. Few people have seen them." Even a faulty memory cannot invent building dozens of extra schools.
I am not surprised by this revelation. This was a long time coming. I refused to read the book because of such murmurs, and even met the ghostwriter author's wife over a cup of yes, tea (who was oddly uninterested in talking about the region), and now feel vindicated.
In 2009, GM's organization had revenues of $14 million (see CNN link). It spent $1.7 million that year in book-related expenses, more than the money given to building schools in Pakistan that same year. Something doesn't smell right. First, if the revenues were so high, why was the amount spent in one of the two main countries so low, even lower than was spent on promoting his books!?
His orientalist papering over all his lies and inconsistencies is what is outright offensive. Based on what I have read of his brief parries from prying journalists, everything is different out in "that place" because the culture is so different. He actually hints that his "kidnappers" whom he photographed may have a different view of the episode -- meaning that they thought he was their guest? Well, that's just not a kidnapping. People do not forcibly make guests stay -- even in the Waziristans.
I hope that he is completely exposed.
posted by Azaadistani at 2:56 AM on April 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
I am not surprised by this revelation. This was a long time coming. I refused to read the book because of such murmurs, and even met the ghostwriter author's wife over a cup of yes, tea (who was oddly uninterested in talking about the region), and now feel vindicated.
In 2009, GM's organization had revenues of $14 million (see CNN link). It spent $1.7 million that year in book-related expenses, more than the money given to building schools in Pakistan that same year. Something doesn't smell right. First, if the revenues were so high, why was the amount spent in one of the two main countries so low, even lower than was spent on promoting his books!?
His orientalist papering over all his lies and inconsistencies is what is outright offensive. Based on what I have read of his brief parries from prying journalists, everything is different out in "that place" because the culture is so different. He actually hints that his "kidnappers" whom he photographed may have a different view of the episode -- meaning that they thought he was their guest? Well, that's just not a kidnapping. People do not forcibly make guests stay -- even in the Waziristans.
I hope that he is completely exposed.
posted by Azaadistani at 2:56 AM on April 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm going to take a weird stance and say, Who cares?
If the majority of people are reading this text for leisure, I have no problem with it.
However, Mortenson's book is used in some college level courses as required reading for subjects dealing with humanitarian intervention. I had to read this book my senior year of college in a required course called Quest For Meaning, that was supposed to demonstrate the importance of our capacity for welfare, etc. The fact that thousands of college students have been required to purchase this book every semester for the past 2 years is what urks me.
posted by _superconductor at 4:05 AM on April 18, 2011
If the majority of people are reading this text for leisure, I have no problem with it.
However, Mortenson's book is used in some college level courses as required reading for subjects dealing with humanitarian intervention. I had to read this book my senior year of college in a required course called Quest For Meaning, that was supposed to demonstrate the importance of our capacity for welfare, etc. The fact that thousands of college students have been required to purchase this book every semester for the past 2 years is what urks me.
posted by _superconductor at 4:05 AM on April 18, 2011
But Kim is still true, right?
posted by No-sword at 5:33 AM on April 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 5:33 AM on April 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Obviously nobody read the subtitle --
#notintendedtobeafactualstatement
posted by inigo2 at 8:28 AM on April 18, 2011
#notintendedtobeafactualstatement
posted by inigo2 at 8:28 AM on April 18, 2011
American Institute of Philanthropy: Nobel Prize Nominee's Charity Wins No Award for Accountability .
It wouldn't be the first time a a Nobel Prize winner had issues with the accuracy of their biography. Although in Menchu's case, even the investigator that uncovered the details didn't call for the prize to be rescinded since her account is essentially a truthful account of events. Those events just didn't necessarily happen to her, nor were they a misrepresentation of events that were happening.
posted by electroboy at 9:26 AM on April 18, 2011
It wouldn't be the first time a a Nobel Prize winner had issues with the accuracy of their biography. Although in Menchu's case, even the investigator that uncovered the details didn't call for the prize to be rescinded since her account is essentially a truthful account of events. Those events just didn't necessarily happen to her, nor were they a misrepresentation of events that were happening.
posted by electroboy at 9:26 AM on April 18, 2011
That was confusing, I meant to say that those events were basically a truthful account of things that were going on in Guatemala and drew international attention to the cause, but Menchu's importance was exaggerated.
posted by electroboy at 9:38 AM on April 18, 2011
posted by electroboy at 9:38 AM on April 18, 2011
My initial reaction reading the CNN story: ok, ok, guy wasn't quite telling it straight in his book, so it goes and all that. Until I got to this:
in 2009, less than half of that money -- 41 percent -- actually went to building schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan
And the former United Way employee in me said: wait, what now? That's in sketchy telemarketing fundraiser territory. Not cool.
posted by epersonae at 10:19 AM on April 18, 2011
in 2009, less than half of that money -- 41 percent -- actually went to building schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan
And the former United Way employee in me said: wait, what now? That's in sketchy telemarketing fundraiser territory. Not cool.
posted by epersonae at 10:19 AM on April 18, 2011
Just watched the 60 Minutes piece. ruh-roh. He did not look good when they ambushed him with the cameras.
Expect more from this.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:42 AM on April 18, 2011
Expect more from this.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:42 AM on April 18, 2011
Sigh ... agree with Ironmouth's last comment. I am heartsick over these revelations ... and yet on one level, sadly not surprised. Not that I suspected any of this specifically from Greg Mortensen and his organization, but because I long ago took my rose-colored glasses off about most NGO's and their supposedly "altruistic" intents, no matter how affective the story they tell. Human greed is insidious and and can take many, many unsuspecting forms. I want to believe that Greg was coming from what he thought was a good place ~ and merely got sucked into a system ultimately run by his own ego - instead of his true self that accomplished what genuine good CAN be pointed to.
posted by cdalight at 11:13 AM on April 18, 2011
posted by cdalight at 11:13 AM on April 18, 2011
Author speaks out -- "Greg Mortenson blasts ‘devastating’ allegations, says he was ambushed."
posted by ericb at 12:50 PM on April 18, 2011
posted by ericb at 12:50 PM on April 18, 2011
Moral of the story: When 60 Minutes comes knocking, run.
posted by gottabefunky at 1:48 PM on April 18, 2011
posted by gottabefunky at 1:48 PM on April 18, 2011
Moral of the story: You better be truthful when running a huge multi-national charity because if 60 Minutes comes knocking they will ("We managed to track down the two porters who accompanied Mortenson, and spoke to them in Pakistan's remote Hushe Valley.") find you.
posted by woodjockey at 7:50 PM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by woodjockey at 7:50 PM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm not being defensive! You're the one who's being defensive!
posted by Chrysostom at 8:39 PM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 8:39 PM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
When a 60 Minutes camera in your face you have, look so good you will not, hmmm?
As a supporter of the charity I am looking into this very, very closely - especially that 41% figure quoted by epersonae - but I am also disinclined to take 60 Minutes at face value. (The few episodes I've managed to watch, I've been put off by the feeling I'm being manipulated by the ZOMG you must Wring Your Hands Over This and the "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" interview style.)
So for me at least, more investigation is in order. Starting (but not ending) with the organization's point of view, which can be found on their website:
- Message from Greg Mortenson (PDF)
- Greg Mortenson's response to 60 Minutes questions (PDF)
- CAI Board of Directors response to 60 Minutes questions (PDF)
- and Statement of the Board of Directors, Central Asia Institute Regarding Recent Media Reports (PDF)
And here's the text of that last PDF:
As a supporter of the charity I am looking into this very, very closely - especially that 41% figure quoted by epersonae - but I am also disinclined to take 60 Minutes at face value. (The few episodes I've managed to watch, I've been put off by the feeling I'm being manipulated by the ZOMG you must Wring Your Hands Over This and the "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" interview style.)
So for me at least, more investigation is in order. Starting (but not ending) with the organization's point of view, which can be found on their website:
- Message from Greg Mortenson (PDF)
- Greg Mortenson's response to 60 Minutes questions (PDF)
- CAI Board of Directors response to 60 Minutes questions (PDF)
- and Statement of the Board of Directors, Central Asia Institute Regarding Recent Media Reports (PDF)
And here's the text of that last PDF:
Statement of the Board of Directors, Central Asia Institute Regarding Recent Media Reportsposted by evilmomlady at 12:20 PM on April 19, 2011
April 16, 2011
From the time the Central Asia Institute was first created, its mission and that of its co-founder, Greg Mortensen, has been to support and promote educational opportunities by helping local communities build and operate schools to educate the children, especially girls, and supporting women’s vocational centers, libraries and other educational resources in remote areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Concurrently, CAI’s outreach efforts include educating the American and international public about the need to promote peace through expanding educational
opportunities.
Greg’s speeches, books and public appearances are the primary means of educating the American people on behalf of the Institute and he is CAI’s principal fundraiser. He devotes his time and his life to this important work. CAI’s activities and Greg’s are closely intertwined.
Greg worked for many years for little or no compensation, but is now paid a salary by the Institute as its Executive Director. In addition some of his expenses incurred to promote the Institute’s domestic education programs are, appropriately, paid by the organization.
His books are advertised and distributed by the Institute as a primary means of fulfilling its mission of educating the American public.
He receives speaking fees for many of his appearances (although he also volunteers his time for many audiences, including military preparing to deploy to Afghanistan) and royalties from the sale of his books.
Late last year, an attorney retained by CAI questioned whether these practices might raise issues of CAI providing “excess benefits” to Greg – an issue that was also raised by the American Institute of Philanthropy. The Board and Greg took these questions very seriously and asked counsel to conduct an in-depth review of CAI’s activities and its relationship with Greg. As a result of this analysis, counsel concluded there is no “excess benefit” -- that is, CAI appropriately receives a greater benefit from Greg’s activities than Greg does himself.
Through his work empowering communities in some of the most remote areas in the world, and through his successful books that share the stories of his experiences, Greg has accomplished the real and extraordinary work of bringing education to girls and boys in Pakistan and Afghanistan who otherwise would have no educational opportunity to enable them to help themselves and their communities. It would be truly tragic if the sensationalized allegations against him were to harm the future of this crucial work.
Jon Krakauer Publishes Greg Mortenson Expose
Journalist Jon Krakauer has published an expose of author Greg Mortenson with a new long form journalism site, Byliner. Follow this link before April 20th to download a free PDF copy; a Kindle Single edition will be published on Wednesday.posted by ericb at 2:13 PM on April 19, 2011
... Here’s more about the Byliner essay: “Mortenson has built a global reputation as a selfless humanitarian and children’s crusader, and he’s been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. He is also not what he appears to be. As acclaimed author Jon Krakauer discovered, Mortenson has not only fabricated substantial parts of his bestselling books Three Cups of Tea and Stones into Schools, but has also misused millions of dollars donated by unsuspecting admirers like Krakauer himself. This is the tragic tale of good intentions gone very wrong.”
Stones Into Dollars: Why Greg Mortenson's Math Doesn't Add Up.
posted by ericb at 2:19 PM on April 19, 2011
posted by ericb at 2:19 PM on April 19, 2011
Think Tank Director in Pakistan May Sue Greg Mortenson
Yesterday a 60 Minutes report and author Jon Krakauer both accused author Greg Mortenson of fabricating incidents in his memoir–spawning a lawsuit threat and “serious questions” about his work in Afghanistan.posted by ericb at 2:26 PM on April 19, 2011
In his memoirs, Mortenson alleged that Taliban members kidnapped him during his work. CNN interviewed Mansur Khan Mahsud, a Pakistani think tank director included in a photo from this alleged kidnapping.
Mahsud told reporters he planned to sue over Mortenson’s defamatory claims. Mahsud shared an unpublished photo of Mortenson with his “kidnappers;” in the photo Mortenson holds a firearm and does not appear to be in danger.
The Takeaway interviewed Afghanistan-based BBC reporter Bilal Sawary about the allegations. He added: “Mortenson’s organization says that he’s built at least ten schools [in an eastern region of Afghanistan]. Provincial authorities could only confirm two; the rest were built by the provincial reconstruction team of the United States of America–the army which is there or the Swedish committee. So there are very serious questions … over the ownership of some of these schools.”
Mortenson has defended himself and his organization, the Central Asia Institute, in an interview with Outside magazine. His publisher, Viking, plans to review his two books for accuracy.
What The Scandal Of "Three Cups of Tea" Author Greg Mortenson Is Really About -- "Forget lying in a memoir, we should be talking about what it means that Mortenson's Central Asia Institutes in Pakistan and Afghanistan are failing."
posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on April 19, 2011
posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on April 19, 2011
Some Pakistani perspectives on the story:
Nosheen Ali (disclaimer: this is an old school friend. She is, however, a long-standing researcher in the Northern Areas of Pakistan)
posted by tavegyl at 12:58 AM on April 20, 2011
Nosheen Ali (disclaimer: this is an old school friend. She is, however, a long-standing researcher in the Northern Areas of Pakistan)
posted by tavegyl at 12:58 AM on April 20, 2011
Montana Attorney General Launches Inquiry Into 'Three Cups Of Tea' Charity.
posted by ericb at 10:14 AM on April 20, 2011
posted by ericb at 10:14 AM on April 20, 2011
'Three Cups of Tea': Is the publishing industry to blame for fabricated memoirs?
posted by ericb at 10:22 AM on April 20, 2011
posted by ericb at 10:22 AM on April 20, 2011
The US swallowed these cups of tea to justify its imperial aims. Greg Mortenson's wild Pakistan tale exposes more than one fantasist – it reveals Americans' delusion about their 'civilising' mission.
posted by adamvasco at 3:26 AM on April 22, 2011
posted by adamvasco at 3:26 AM on April 22, 2011
Interview with Greg Mortenson
An Outside Magazine interview discusses the 60 minutes allegations and gets Mortenson to give his own version of the stories covered in "Three Cups of Tea". Mortenson refutes claims that there is wholesale fabrication but takes responsibility for misstatements and "time compression" in the book but does explain that some of the problem was caused by his working with ghostwriters who juiced up his own admittedly not well written version of the events.
He apologized and described his own efforts to bring the conflicts of interest and the foundation's recognized mismanagement under control, which he said had been going on prior to the 60 Minutes piece. He said that he hopes that the actual mission of building schools can go on with or without him.
I thought better of him afterwards.
posted by notmtwain at 6:34 AM on April 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
An Outside Magazine interview discusses the 60 minutes allegations and gets Mortenson to give his own version of the stories covered in "Three Cups of Tea". Mortenson refutes claims that there is wholesale fabrication but takes responsibility for misstatements and "time compression" in the book but does explain that some of the problem was caused by his working with ghostwriters who juiced up his own admittedly not well written version of the events.
He apologized and described his own efforts to bring the conflicts of interest and the foundation's recognized mismanagement under control, which he said had been going on prior to the 60 Minutes piece. He said that he hopes that the actual mission of building schools can go on with or without him.
I thought better of him afterwards.
posted by notmtwain at 6:34 AM on April 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
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