Well Excuse Me, Princess!
April 17, 2011 4:52 PM Subscribe
Is Star Wars sexist? Cracked examines the lack of strong female characters in Star Wars.
Perhaps Cracked should look within its own domain before it begins examining sexism elsewhere.
posted by Think_Long at 5:11 PM on April 17, 2011 [25 favorites]
posted by Think_Long at 5:11 PM on April 17, 2011 [25 favorites]
Notice how there's only one woman in the video and the single black person is bussing the table of nitpicking white elite? At least Lando to be governor of his own city and wear a cape.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:15 PM on April 17, 2011 [19 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:15 PM on April 17, 2011 [19 favorites]
The one female protagonist they exclude outright isn't even a great example. Yes, on the one hand, Princess Leia is a strong woman. But on the other, her slave outfit is not exactly a strong proclamation of gender equality.
Clearly Lucas should never have cut out the little-known scene where Luke and Biggs Darklighter are seen sunbathing in speedos at Tosche Station.
NB: apparently leiasmetalbikini.com is a thing. (Thanks, google).
posted by HabeasCorpus at 5:15 PM on April 17, 2011
Clearly Lucas should never have cut out the little-known scene where Luke and Biggs Darklighter are seen sunbathing in speedos at Tosche Station.
NB: apparently leiasmetalbikini.com is a thing. (Thanks, google).
posted by HabeasCorpus at 5:15 PM on April 17, 2011
I'm okay with this since they admitted Mon Mothma screws up the theory a little, and it was funny.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:15 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:15 PM on April 17, 2011
Oooh my goodness this is loading slowly.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:16 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:16 PM on April 17, 2011
her slave outfit is not exactly a strong proclamation of gender equality.
Jabba's designers really dropped the ball on that one.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:16 PM on April 17, 2011 [18 favorites]
Jabba's designers really dropped the ball on that one.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:16 PM on April 17, 2011 [18 favorites]
I keep wanting to like After Hours but....
...worst high school universe is okay
posted by The Whelk at 5:19 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
...worst high school universe is okay
posted by The Whelk at 5:19 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've gotten two minutes seconds in, and I know it doesn't count because it's extended universe, but I really, really wanted to be Tenel Ka. Haughty and proud and feisty and she even built her own light saber, even though it led to the loss of her arm.
Which kinda made her more bad ass and awesome, actually.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:20 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Which kinda made her more bad ass and awesome, actually.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:20 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Plus, they're forgetting the other three movies.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:21 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:21 PM on April 17, 2011
NB: apparently leiasmetalbikini.com is a thing. (Thanks, google).
I'd honestly be more surprised if there weren't a few fansites devoted to it.
I liked the bit where they talked about all the role models for guys. That might be one of the reasons so many of us went through a heavy Star Wars phse.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:21 PM on April 17, 2011
I'd honestly be more surprised if there weren't a few fansites devoted to it.
I liked the bit where they talked about all the role models for guys. That might be one of the reasons so many of us went through a heavy Star Wars phse.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:21 PM on April 17, 2011
Plus, they're forgetting the other three movies.
People often forget traumatic experiences.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:22 PM on April 17, 2011 [32 favorites]
People often forget traumatic experiences.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:22 PM on April 17, 2011 [32 favorites]
Wow. I saw "Cracked," "sexist," and "Star Wars" in the same proximity, and I assumed it was going to make me really, really frustrated with the state of gender studies in the world today.
But, actually, it didn't make me frustrated at all! In fact, it was actually somewhat good! I like how they took it seriously from the get-go that a lack of female characters would be a bad thing.
posted by meese at 5:24 PM on April 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
But, actually, it didn't make me frustrated at all! In fact, it was actually somewhat good! I like how they took it seriously from the get-go that a lack of female characters would be a bad thing.
posted by meese at 5:24 PM on April 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Also, I kind of wanted to be Luke. Because, you know, girls are used to identifying with and aspiring toward awesome, iconic male characters (see: Harry Potter's universality) but boys don't/don't need to do the same.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:25 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:25 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
I wonder if our kids are going to question why Star Trek, a franchise all about inclusivity, still has yet to have an openly gay character, even in the 2009 remake.
No, the androgynous child race (Riker made out with one who was not attracted to its own gender, which is like gay on their planet. Don't think about it too hard.) does not count, because it totally danced around the issue. Nor does the miniskirt on that extra who was deeply confused about the whole thing. That'd be transvestism today, which people do regardless of orientation, and the point was that in the future, they lacked the strong gender roles we have today re: clothing.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:27 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
No, the androgynous child race (Riker made out with one who was not attracted to its own gender, which is like gay on their planet. Don't think about it too hard.) does not count, because it totally danced around the issue. Nor does the miniskirt on that extra who was deeply confused about the whole thing. That'd be transvestism today, which people do regardless of orientation, and the point was that in the future, they lacked the strong gender roles we have today re: clothing.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:27 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
Plus, they're forgetting the other three movies.
What other 3 movies?
I keep hearing people tell me that there was a third Godfather (yeah right) and even TWO sequels to the Matrix (I bet Zion would be awesome if that were true...), and THREE other Star Wars movies, but I ain't never *twitch* heard of 'em.
posted by chimaera at 5:30 PM on April 17, 2011 [20 favorites]
What other 3 movies?
I keep hearing people tell me that there was a third Godfather (yeah right) and even TWO sequels to the Matrix (I bet Zion would be awesome if that were true...), and THREE other Star Wars movies, but I ain't never *twitch* heard of 'em.
posted by chimaera at 5:30 PM on April 17, 2011 [20 favorites]
Virus Comix?
posted by boo_radley at 5:30 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by boo_radley at 5:30 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
In the first movie at least Leia is Han's equal and more badass than Luke. That changes eventually.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:31 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:31 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Also, I kind of wanted to be Luke.
Oh my God. I'm not the only girl who felt the same?
posted by Salieri at 5:32 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
Oh my God. I'm not the only girl who felt the same?
posted by Salieri at 5:32 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
The beans are pre-overthunk. Is there really anything left for metafilter to do?
posted by cjorgensen at 5:32 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 5:32 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Suprise ending: Yes, everything old will fail your quota test. everything. Also, everything considered the cutting edge of inclusivity right now will fail in the future on some grounds you haven't even thought of. The end.
posted by Artw at 5:32 PM on April 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:32 PM on April 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
If their biology is similar to ours, half of the Ewoks must be female. Chewbacca could be female for all we know. Equality!
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:32 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:32 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I wonder if our kids are going to question why Star Trek, a franchise all about inclusivity, still has yet to have an openly gay character, even in the 2009 remake.
All sexuality is so muted in Star Trek (at least since TNG), that it's easier for me to assume they're all asexual or pansexual. Even though I know there are episodes that explicitly depend on characters being heterosexual, I still don't quite buy it.
posted by meese at 5:33 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
All sexuality is so muted in Star Trek (at least since TNG), that it's easier for me to assume they're all asexual or pansexual. Even though I know there are episodes that explicitly depend on characters being heterosexual, I still don't quite buy it.
posted by meese at 5:33 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
What they don't tell you is that everyone in Starfleet has spent a century of subjective time on the Pleasure Planet - this is to ensure they will become bored and jaded with the flesh and seek only the rigor and duty of pure exploration.
posted by The Whelk at 5:35 PM on April 17, 2011 [15 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 5:35 PM on April 17, 2011 [15 favorites]
You mean the Holodeck?
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:36 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:36 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Starfleet largely exists now to rationalize holodeck time.
posted by The Whelk at 5:37 PM on April 17, 2011 [28 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 5:37 PM on April 17, 2011 [28 favorites]
Also, cause you can never say it enough
"Commander, tell me about your sexual organs."
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Commander, tell me about your sexual organs."
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I also call bullshit on the "Leia was terrible role model because she left the attack planning to go rescue Han." By attempting to control and judge her actions based on how they, the males, think not only what her correct actions were but how she should feel, they perpetuate what they're supposedly complaining about.
Maybe Leia was so good, she could delegate duties for planning the attack and take time out for the rescue. Note that she didn't use any troops or equipment from the Alliance, it was a personal mission. Yeah, that's right, she was multitasking.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:40 PM on April 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
Maybe Leia was so good, she could delegate duties for planning the attack and take time out for the rescue. Note that she didn't use any troops or equipment from the Alliance, it was a personal mission. Yeah, that's right, she was multitasking.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:40 PM on April 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
I forget where I first read/heard it, but one of my favorite analyses of Star Wars was something to the effect that "doesn't anyone find it disturbing that there are more alien & robot people in the Star Wars movies then there are black people and women people?"
My personal favorite is how this is ret-conned within fandom by saying that the The Emperor was xenophobic and thus that makes the amazingly large number of white human males running things so common. Also, say what you will about Mon Motha "balancing things", but General Dodonna (was that his name?) got more lines in Jedi than she did.
posted by KingEdRa at 5:40 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
My personal favorite is how this is ret-conned within fandom by saying that the The Emperor was xenophobic and thus that makes the amazingly large number of white human males running things so common. Also, say what you will about Mon Motha "balancing things", but General Dodonna (was that his name?) got more lines in Jedi than she did.
posted by KingEdRa at 5:40 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
The beans are pre-overthunk. Is there really anything left for metafilter to do?
Tell charming anecdotes about Star Wars fandom as a kid? Argue Star Wars vs Star Trek? Argue over the nature of sexism? Point out things Cracked missed?
Star Trek always struck me as pretty boring compared to Star Wars.
All sexuality is so muted in Star Trek (at least since TNG), that it's easier for me to assume they're all asexual or pansexual. Even though I know there are episodes that explicitly depend on characters being heterosexual, I still don't quite buy it.
TNG, yeah. Captain Kirk is very sexual. Heterosexual? At least. I'd buy him as a Captain Jack style omnisexual. TNG and Voyager are just beige.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:41 PM on April 17, 2011
Tell charming anecdotes about Star Wars fandom as a kid? Argue Star Wars vs Star Trek? Argue over the nature of sexism? Point out things Cracked missed?
Star Trek always struck me as pretty boring compared to Star Wars.
All sexuality is so muted in Star Trek (at least since TNG), that it's easier for me to assume they're all asexual or pansexual. Even though I know there are episodes that explicitly depend on characters being heterosexual, I still don't quite buy it.
TNG, yeah. Captain Kirk is very sexual. Heterosexual? At least. I'd buy him as a Captain Jack style omnisexual. TNG and Voyager are just beige.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:41 PM on April 17, 2011
I guess as time goes by movies become more inclusive. The three first chapters of Star Wars include two important characters: Princess Amigdala and Anakin´s mother
posted by juanillogg at 5:42 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by juanillogg at 5:42 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I forget where I first read/heard it, but one of my favorite analyses of Star Wars was something to the effect that "doesn't anyone find it disturbing that there are more alien & robot people in the Star Wars movies then there are black people and women people?"
Technically, all those Storm Troopers are Temuera Morrison under the masks, right? That... doesn't really help at all, since it came later.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:42 PM on April 17, 2011
Technically, all those Storm Troopers are Temuera Morrison under the masks, right? That... doesn't really help at all, since it came later.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:42 PM on April 17, 2011
Technically, all those Storm Troopers are Temuera Morrison under the masks, right? That... doesn't really help at all, since it came later.
Yeah, also, the fact that the storm troopers are mindless drones makes it even less helpful.
posted by skewed at 5:45 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah, also, the fact that the storm troopers are mindless drones makes it even less helpful.
posted by skewed at 5:45 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
I feel like I've stumbled onto the set of Big Bang Theory.
posted by binturong at 5:45 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by binturong at 5:45 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I'd see Leia's rescue of Han as a positive thing in this light. I mean, male heroes run off to save their love interest in the middle of a Heroic Quest all the time. This would seem to be an equalizing bit if anything (_she_ had to rescue _him_, although it's not like she did it alone).
Of course, no matter what you're left with 1 female character (with any real screen time) in the original trilogy.
posted by wildcrdj at 5:46 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Of course, no matter what you're left with 1 female character (with any real screen time) in the original trilogy.
posted by wildcrdj at 5:46 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Chewbacca could be female for all we know.
Wait, Chewbacca isn't Han Solo's wife? I figured they were just in an open relationship and she was okay with him going after Leia.
posted by Jehan at 5:46 PM on April 17, 2011 [26 favorites]
Wait, Chewbacca isn't Han Solo's wife? I figured they were just in an open relationship and she was okay with him going after Leia.
posted by Jehan at 5:46 PM on April 17, 2011 [26 favorites]
Of course, no matter what you're left with 1 female character (with any real screen time) in the original trilogy.
Well Luke wasn't interested in anyone, except his sister. That counts for...something, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:48 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Well Luke wasn't interested in anyone, except his sister. That counts for...something, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:48 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
I feel like I've stumbled onto the set of Big Bang Theory.
The video felt very Clerks.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:51 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
The video felt very Clerks.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:51 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're all being very unfair to Sy Snootles.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:01 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:01 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Star Trek always struck me as pretty boring compared to Star Wars.
Must ... contain ... EMOTIONS. This is not ... logical.
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:01 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Must ... contain ... EMOTIONS. This is not ... logical.
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:01 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Chewbacca has a family of his own, without Hans.
We do not speak of them here.
posted by mccarty.tim at 6:05 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
We do not speak of them here.
posted by mccarty.tim at 6:05 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Technically, all those Storm Troopers are Temuera Morrison under the masks, right? That... doesn't really help at all, since it came later.
Actually, no, not all of them.
posted by KingEdRa at 6:05 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Actually, no, not all of them.
posted by KingEdRa at 6:05 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I wonder if our kids are going to question why Star Trek, a franchise all about inclusivity, still has yet to have an openly gay character, even in the 2009 remake.
Check the fan films. They've got loads.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Check the fan films. They've got loads.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
the lack of strong female characters in Star Wars
Star Wars has strong characters, male, female, or otherwise?
posted by juiceCake at 6:11 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Star Wars has strong characters, male, female, or otherwise?
posted by juiceCake at 6:11 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Even more than the fact that Leia's rescue of Han is really a sham of an excuse for her to put her boyfriend above the revolution of which she is in charge, I hate the part in Empire where Han's getting put into the carbonite, and Leia professes her love for him because she knows he might die, and he takes that opportunity to say his most famous asshole line in response, and then she just PINES FOR HIM UNTIL THE NEXT MOVIE AND RESCUES HIS STUPID ASS ANYWAY. He has spent all of Empire proving that he's immature and possessive in addition to being a nerf herder, and then he won't even say "I love you" back when you put yourself out there, and then you go and run after him anyway, Leia, really? Really?? You're about as good a role model as Ariel and Belle.
posted by so_gracefully at 6:36 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by so_gracefully at 6:36 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
I liked that line.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:39 PM on April 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:39 PM on April 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
Also, I kind of wanted to be Luke.
With all due respect, this is pretty weird to me. Why would you ever want to be Luke when you could want to be Han? Hell, I STILL want to be Han.
When we were kids my friend Noelle and I made a Star Wars movie and I got to be Han and she was Luke and we made her little sister be Leia and her Dad was Darth Vader (and, in a somewhat awkward cinematographic move, the cameraman) and her model ATAT played an ATAT and it was AWESOME but the best part was where I got to be Han. Oddly, the way this was portrayed in the movie was by me wearing an Indiana Jones style hat, someone else I aspire to be.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:45 PM on April 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
With all due respect, this is pretty weird to me. Why would you ever want to be Luke when you could want to be Han? Hell, I STILL want to be Han.
When we were kids my friend Noelle and I made a Star Wars movie and I got to be Han and she was Luke and we made her little sister be Leia and her Dad was Darth Vader (and, in a somewhat awkward cinematographic move, the cameraman) and her model ATAT played an ATAT and it was AWESOME but the best part was where I got to be Han. Oddly, the way this was portrayed in the movie was by me wearing an Indiana Jones style hat, someone else I aspire to be.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:45 PM on April 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
I bet all the characters in Star Trek, from The Next Generation onwards, turn into completely different people once they get in the holodeck and run their own personal sex programs. The shit they get into is probably so crazy that by the time they hit their mid-twenties, they're all more or less sexed out cold fish, as we see in the various series.
posted by picea at 6:46 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by picea at 6:46 PM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
so_gracefully, he didn't use the actual words "I love you" but Leia and almost everyone else who watched the film understood that is exactly what he was saying with his snarky remark.
posted by straight at 6:47 PM on April 17, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by straight at 6:47 PM on April 17, 2011 [12 favorites]
Even more than the fact that Leia's rescue of Han is really a sham of an excuse for her to put her boyfriend above the revolution of which she is in charge
It's weird how you and others are slagging Leia for this, but not Luke, who was the last remaining Jedi. At least Leia had a reason, she loved him, Luke had no business being in that rescue, what with him being the Alliance's only member who could wield The Force.
There's also zero indication that the Alliance just froze in place while they were off on the rescue. I imagine it went something like this: "Hey, that attack were planning? Keep at it, we gotta do take care of this personal thing. We'll be back on X to open up a can of whup ass. If we're not back by thing, go on without us."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
It's weird how you and others are slagging Leia for this, but not Luke, who was the last remaining Jedi. At least Leia had a reason, she loved him, Luke had no business being in that rescue, what with him being the Alliance's only member who could wield The Force.
There's also zero indication that the Alliance just froze in place while they were off on the rescue. I imagine it went something like this: "Hey, that attack were planning? Keep at it, we gotta do take care of this personal thing. We'll be back on X to open up a can of whup ass. If we're not back by thing, go on without us."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
With all due respect, this is pretty weird to me. Why would you ever want to be Luke when you could want to be Han? Hell, I STILL want to be Han.
For the same reason Leonardo was my favorite ninja turtle until I was about 15 (at which point, my angst got the better of me and I became a Raph fan): I love awesome swords. Apparently I don't care if my heroes are douche bags as long as they have awesome swords.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:54 PM on April 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
For the same reason Leonardo was my favorite ninja turtle until I was about 15 (at which point, my angst got the better of me and I became a Raph fan): I love awesome swords. Apparently I don't care if my heroes are douche bags as long as they have awesome swords.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:54 PM on April 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
Brandon, I am sure that the other rebel fighters were used to him being gone all the time to work on other, more exciting plotlines (BRB hanging out inside a dead animal, BRB gotta singlehandedly fight Vader, BRB gotta learn Jedi stuffs, etc.).
posted by so_gracefully at 6:58 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by so_gracefully at 6:58 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
I liked that line.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:39 PM on April 17 [+] [!]
He stole it from Shaft.
"Ellie Moore: I love you.
John Shaft: Yeah, I know."
posted by Ndwright at 6:59 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:39 PM on April 17 [+] [!]
He stole it from Shaft.
"Ellie Moore: I love you.
John Shaft: Yeah, I know."
posted by Ndwright at 6:59 PM on April 17, 2011
With all due respect, this is pretty weird to me. Why would you ever want to be Luke when you could want to be Han? Hell, I STILL want to be Han.
Luke was who I wanted to be before puberty. Three guesses when I wanted to be Han.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:01 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Luke was who I wanted to be before puberty. Three guesses when I wanted to be Han.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:01 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Boy do I know about this. When my sister and I played with Star Wars figures the lack of female characters made our desires for Mary Sueness very difficult. Luckily we had several Princess Leia figurines and we pretended they were different people, like Leia's long-lost sister Freya. We eventually got a Mon Mothma figurine, but she became Leia and Freya's long-lost mother.
posted by melissam at 7:04 PM on April 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by melissam at 7:04 PM on April 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
the lack of strong female characters in Star Wars.
Why do they have to be strong? It'd be more interesting if there were enough female characters that they could have a variety of weaknesses. The antidote to strippers is not the "cool chick" who acts male.
posted by 445supermag at 7:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [15 favorites]
Why do they have to be strong? It'd be more interesting if there were enough female characters that they could have a variety of weaknesses. The antidote to strippers is not the "cool chick" who acts male.
posted by 445supermag at 7:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [15 favorites]
"Tell charming anecdotes about Star Wars fandom as a kid?"
Seems unlikely.
posted by sneebler at 7:11 PM on April 17, 2011
Seems unlikely.
posted by sneebler at 7:11 PM on April 17, 2011
I bet all the characters in Star Trek, from The Next Generation onwards, turn into completely different people once they get in the holodeck and run their own personal sex programs.
The Life and Times of a Holodeck Janitor
The idea of Riker showing up at the holodeck in his robe and just using it as his bathroom makes me wheeze with laughter.
posted by Ian A.T. at 7:13 PM on April 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
The Life and Times of a Holodeck Janitor
The idea of Riker showing up at the holodeck in his robe and just using it as his bathroom makes me wheeze with laughter.
posted by Ian A.T. at 7:13 PM on April 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
For the same reason Leonardo was my favorite ninja turtle until I was about 15 (at which point, my angst got the better of me and I became a Raph fan): I love awesome swords. Apparently I don't care if my heroes are douche bags as long as they have awesome swords.
Okay, I accept your explanation. Full marks for valid justification of an invalid opinion.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:15 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
Okay, I accept your explanation. Full marks for valid justification of an invalid opinion.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:15 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
While it didn't have a gay character, per se, TNG did address issues of sexual orientation/identity in The Outcast.
posted by callmejay at 7:22 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by callmejay at 7:22 PM on April 17, 2011
then he won't even say "I love you" back when you put yourself out there, and then you go and run after him anyway, Leia, really?
True friends see right through each other's bullshit and give help when it's needed.
posted by scrowdid at 7:23 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
True friends see right through each other's bullshit and give help when it's needed.
posted by scrowdid at 7:23 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
Also, I kind of wanted to be Luke.
I wasn't interested in Leia, and I didn't want to have a boy for a hero, so Luke and Han were both out of the question. Instead, I really wanted to be R2-D2.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:24 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
I wasn't interested in Leia, and I didn't want to have a boy for a hero, so Luke and Han were both out of the question. Instead, I really wanted to be R2-D2.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:24 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
At least Lando to be governor of his own city and wear a cape.
But Lando was added to Empire as a reaction to contemporary criticism about the all-white galaxy in the first movie.
posted by octothorpe at 7:31 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
But Lando was added to Empire as a reaction to contemporary criticism about the all-white galaxy in the first movie.
posted by octothorpe at 7:31 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
True friends see right through each other's bullshit and give help when it's needed.
I don't know about you, but my "true friends" and I don't have a relationship that consists 85% of said bullshit in the first place.
posted by so_gracefully at 7:34 PM on April 17, 2011
I don't know about you, but my "true friends" and I don't have a relationship that consists 85% of said bullshit in the first place.
posted by so_gracefully at 7:34 PM on April 17, 2011
But Lando was added to Empire as a reaction to contemporary criticism about the all-white galaxy in the first movie.
But he had his own personal white guy robot slave, surely that means...something, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:37 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
But he had his own personal white guy robot slave, surely that means...something, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:37 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
If anyone hasn't read this excellent tribute to Marcia Lucas and her essential contributions to Star Wars and the rest of George's early career, it may be relevant here. These two bits are worth highlighting:
"[Marcia] was instrumental in changing the ending of Raiders, in which Indiana delivers the ark to Washington. Marion is nowhere to be seen, presumably stranded on an island with a submarine and a lot of melted Nazis. Marcia watched the rough cut in silence and then levelled the boom. She said there was no emotional resolution to the ending, because the girl disappears. 'Everyone was feeling really good until she said that,' Dunham recalls. 'It was one of those, "Oh no we lost sight of that." ' Spielberg reshot the scene in downtown San Francisco, having Marion wait for Indiana on the steps on the government building. Marcia, once again, had come to the rescue."
And later, Marcia talks about her decision to leave George:
"I felt that we had paid our dues, fought our battles, worked eight days a week, twenty-five hours a day. I wanted to stop and smell the flowers. I wanted joy in my life. And George just didn't. He was very emotionally blocked, incapable of sharing feelings. He wanted to stay on that workaholic track. The empire builder, the dynamo. And I couldn't see myself living that way for the rest of my life.
I felt we were partners, partners in the ranch, partners in our home, and we did these films together. I wasn't a fifty percent partner, but I felt I had something to bring to the table. I was the more emotional person who came from the heart, and George was the more intellectual and visual, and I thought that provided a nice balance. But George would never acknowledge that to me. I think he resented my criticisms, felt that all I ever did was put him down. In his mind, I always stayed the stupid Valley girl. He never felt I had any talent, he never felt I was very smart and he never gave me much credit. When we were finishing Jedi, George told me he thought I was a pretty good editor. In the sixteen years of our being together I think that was the only time he complimented me."
Just popped to mind.
posted by mediareport at 7:49 PM on April 17, 2011 [28 favorites]
"[Marcia] was instrumental in changing the ending of Raiders, in which Indiana delivers the ark to Washington. Marion is nowhere to be seen, presumably stranded on an island with a submarine and a lot of melted Nazis. Marcia watched the rough cut in silence and then levelled the boom. She said there was no emotional resolution to the ending, because the girl disappears. 'Everyone was feeling really good until she said that,' Dunham recalls. 'It was one of those, "Oh no we lost sight of that." ' Spielberg reshot the scene in downtown San Francisco, having Marion wait for Indiana on the steps on the government building. Marcia, once again, had come to the rescue."
And later, Marcia talks about her decision to leave George:
"I felt that we had paid our dues, fought our battles, worked eight days a week, twenty-five hours a day. I wanted to stop and smell the flowers. I wanted joy in my life. And George just didn't. He was very emotionally blocked, incapable of sharing feelings. He wanted to stay on that workaholic track. The empire builder, the dynamo. And I couldn't see myself living that way for the rest of my life.
I felt we were partners, partners in the ranch, partners in our home, and we did these films together. I wasn't a fifty percent partner, but I felt I had something to bring to the table. I was the more emotional person who came from the heart, and George was the more intellectual and visual, and I thought that provided a nice balance. But George would never acknowledge that to me. I think he resented my criticisms, felt that all I ever did was put him down. In his mind, I always stayed the stupid Valley girl. He never felt I had any talent, he never felt I was very smart and he never gave me much credit. When we were finishing Jedi, George told me he thought I was a pretty good editor. In the sixteen years of our being together I think that was the only time he complimented me."
Just popped to mind.
posted by mediareport at 7:49 PM on April 17, 2011 [28 favorites]
Yeah, but Princess Amygdala only ever acts unthinkingly on her fear and rage, a sexist stereotype in its own right.
I always wanted to be Michelangelo. I have no idea why, he was always the stupid one. I think it was the nunchuks.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:51 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
I always wanted to be Michelangelo. I have no idea why, he was always the stupid one. I think it was the nunchuks.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:51 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
The three first chapters of Star Wars include two important characters: Princess Amigdala and Anakin´s mother
One of which was a bad-ass, untrained Jedi with a genius for leadership and planning, and the other was The Giving Tree.
So, basically, it had only one important female character.
I don't know about you, but my "true friends" and I don't have a relationship that consists 85% of said bullshit in the first place.
so_gracefully, I'm going to take that as yet another piece of evidence that you and Leia are not the same person.
posted by IAmBroom at 7:52 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
One of which was a bad-ass, untrained Jedi with a genius for leadership and planning, and the other was The Giving Tree.
So, basically, it had only one important female character.
I don't know about you, but my "true friends" and I don't have a relationship that consists 85% of said bullshit in the first place.
so_gracefully, I'm going to take that as yet another piece of evidence that you and Leia are not the same person.
posted by IAmBroom at 7:52 PM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Erm, call me crazy, but wasn't Mon Mothma the one in CHARGE of the rebellion? Seriously. Leia might have been high up, but she wasn't the supreme leader of things. I am pretty sure there were buttloads of people in the rebellion still rebelling even after Leia and co. took off for a rescue mission. Also, it might be considered rescuing a guy who was a hero of the rebellion (and note that he ends up in charge of some stuff post-rescue), saving a loyal ally, etc.
Also, Leia fucking choked a giant fucking Hutt with his own choke-chain, while being a 5 foot itsy bitsy woman. THAT'S AWESOME.
I'll gripe about a lack of SW female characters until the extended universe right along with you, especially the bits about the strippers, but LEIA IS A BADASS. Do not diss the Leia.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:59 PM on April 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
Also, Leia fucking choked a giant fucking Hutt with his own choke-chain, while being a 5 foot itsy bitsy woman. THAT'S AWESOME.
I'll gripe about a lack of SW female characters until the extended universe right along with you, especially the bits about the strippers, but LEIA IS A BADASS. Do not diss the Leia.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:59 PM on April 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
Also, Leia fucking choked a giant fucking Hutt with his own choke-chain, while being a 5 foot itsy bitsy woman. THAT'S AWESOME.
The other thing about those scenes in Jedi was that Leia didn't seem beaten. If anything she was bored: "Yeah, yeah tits and ass hanging, get your thrill, whatever. I'm still going to kill you one day."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [14 favorites]
The other thing about those scenes in Jedi was that Leia didn't seem beaten. If anything she was bored: "Yeah, yeah tits and ass hanging, get your thrill, whatever. I'm still going to kill you one day."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [14 favorites]
Amygdala.
Amidala.
I have problems wherein I keep pronouncing the brain area with the same emphasis as the fictional princess' name. You try explaining the confusion to a group of neuroscientists.
posted by logicpunk at 8:17 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Amidala.
I have problems wherein I keep pronouncing the brain area with the same emphasis as the fictional princess' name. You try explaining the confusion to a group of neuroscientists.
posted by logicpunk at 8:17 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
It's weird how you and others are slagging Leia for this, but not Luke, who was the last remaining Jedi. At least Leia had a reason, she loved him, Luke had no business being in that rescue, what with him being the Alliance's only member who could wield The Force.
But Luke's a moron. Everyone has worked that out. Expecting him to make sensible decisions is, well, not sensible.
posted by pompomtom at 8:26 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
But Luke's a moron. Everyone has worked that out. Expecting him to make sensible decisions is, well, not sensible.
posted by pompomtom at 8:26 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
singlehandedly fight Vader
I see what you did there.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:27 PM on April 17, 2011 [25 favorites]
I see what you did there.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:27 PM on April 17, 2011 [25 favorites]
Leigh Brackett did co-write Empire.
Someone pointed out once that geekdom's biggest sex symbol is literally a strong woman reduced to a sexualized slave.
I'm not sure how valid that is. I was around 12 or 13 when i saw the ROTJ rerelease in the theatres. It had an, um, pretty strong impression on me. It's still worth questioning why that is though.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:39 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Someone pointed out once that geekdom's biggest sex symbol is literally a strong woman reduced to a sexualized slave.
I'm not sure how valid that is. I was around 12 or 13 when i saw the ROTJ rerelease in the theatres. It had an, um, pretty strong impression on me. It's still worth questioning why that is though.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:39 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Thank you, logicpunk. That misspelling threw me: I thought, wait, she was named Queen Tonsil and I never noticed that?! (Amígdala is Spanish for tonsil.)
posted by queseyo at 8:41 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by queseyo at 8:41 PM on April 17, 2011
I was around 12 or 13 when i saw the ROTJ rerelease in the theatres. It had an, um, pretty strong impression on me.
I know, right? I couldn't believe how badly it sucked after the excellence that was Empire.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:43 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
I know, right? I couldn't believe how badly it sucked after the excellence that was Empire.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:43 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
I forget where I first read/heard it, but one of my favorite analyses of Star Wars was something to the effect that "doesn't anyone find it disturbing that there are more alien & robot people in the Star Wars movies then there are black people and women people?"
Technically, all those Storm Troopers are Temuera Morrison under the masks, right? That... doesn't really help at all, since it came later.
Tem Morrison is a "black person?"
posted by Catch at 8:51 PM on April 17, 2011
He's part Maori. He's less white than the rest of the cast.
There's no way I can respond to this without sounding bad, is there?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:56 PM on April 17, 2011
There's no way I can respond to this without sounding bad, is there?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:56 PM on April 17, 2011
Well, let's see, is it the 1640's where you are?
Yes. I live in Australia.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 9:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [15 favorites]
Yes. I live in Australia.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 9:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [15 favorites]
Zing! Well played mate!
posted by Catch at 9:08 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Catch at 9:08 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
So, what is the 1 minute hugely sexist intro supposed to be? Ironic? A facile thing like this is boring, and why discussions are about how to best express that some story wasn't someone's ideal... rather than looking at some of the implied, or attempted topics raised. "Strong"? Anakin is "strong"... and weak; he destroys peace for a generation. Strong is not everything, and not universally the "best model to role", for a boy or a girl. Aristotle talks about how to be a virtuous slave master; people still value his ideas. Sometimes you need to talk about, and even feature the ugly, to express the comparative virtue in the good and the bad. A lesson on the virtue of moderation is no good without a Hutt.
First, his most recent work (on the Clone Wars telling) is virtually centered on multiple seriously strong women and includes a strong young women character component. Complex, strong, virtuous, solid, broken, equal, powerful, weak, fleshed out characters. It is not for some people; that is cool, but there are young people being exposed to ideas that question what does it mean to be good or bad. Can someone doing good actually cause bad outcomes? Vice versa. Lucas wrote stories about these "big" ideas; maybe he doesn't satisfy you, and they sure aren't perfect, but demanding perfection, or some idealized conception of "modern values", or "wishing" the end product conformed to some single persons conceptions of "getting it right" seems to miss something of what it means to tell a story.
Critiquing things, awesome; dismissing things that don't fit into a theory with pre-concluded conclusions? generally Meh.
Beru (or is running a moisture farm not good enough for these apparently sexist annoying concern-hutts, is her life only of "value", or worth 'appreciation' and admiration if she lives among the gliterati of a capital planet, why do they depict laboring people as not of significance)?
Defining, and dismissing Leia by the fact that she was taken by a (nearly literal) symbol of the Sexist-beast-machine? Hah, they boiled her down to "judged by what she wore (as forced by a symbol of a sexist machine) for one act"; yeah, Lucas is the sexist one.
This is sad-weak (logic; I get they think it is 4lulz). "Lucas wants a phallocracy"... I guess, if your idea of the story is limited to really facile, lulz-seeking as-the-ends style of "analysis".
His whole "epic" is the story of OVERTURNING the "cold, calculating, irrational domination obsessed male-run phallocratic empire, a virtually monolithically male run system", and celebrating the triumph of a system that has Mon Mothma as the strategic (not just the "military aspect", Mothma was, from the Prequels, and since long before the disbanding of the Senate in the opening act, a political mastermind, bringing together disparate rebellious interests under a flag of communal interest... but yeah, the video is about selling titillating racist and sexist stereotypes in the guise of "lookit, sumone who people like is really a secret sexist".
WhatOnEarth; they basically say "Leia rescued people because of her weakness inherent in her female weakness."-what? How would the cracked team write this? Do they have some "non sexist woman ideal character"? Would it be "more of a woman", "more role-model"... if she did... what? It is easy to lol about things that don't conform to our ultimate desired story, but what is "right"? The message is about how wrong things can go when a person believes absolutely that they must take on, alone, the mantle of saving the world/universe/galaxy (I agree, the fleshing out of Amidala was severely incomplete; massively missed opportunity, and in some ideal "I wrote it" world, yes, more "different women characters" would be cool, and possibly make a better lesson/story, it might have also ruined it, who knows).
Anakin brought gender free love, impulse, unthinking compassion, selfless service, and an heroic giving of himself, his absolute belief that he had to (could) protect those around him was a tragic flaw (the very thing about him that is supposed to make him a hero actually turns back around on him, in the tradition of tragic roles established long before storytelling leapt to the film medium, and it breaks him, entrenching his flaws, developing into that which he sought to destroy) he becomes the imbalance, the absolutism which becomes violence and aggression, his tragedy caused a terrifying, and unthinkable failure of what he believed his role to be, and he watched as his power and ability to protect people ate at him until he was existentially (and robotically-symbolically) paralyzed (his [obsessive] love, and devotion, a product of his tragic character, a hero, who risked his life innumerable times, to save people he did not know, he was a hero-hero of the Clone Wars; overall he was a tragic-hero, an examination of what love can morph into (like the novel enduring love is about stalking), where belief that one actually 'can' change the world... He could be selfless and unfeeling about his heroics towards the innocent civilians he served in his short time as a Jedi, the faceless who his actions saved in the war, but Anakin went too far, lost perspective and control with those who he 'knew', he pushed his defense based "need to protect" into an aggressive willingness to destroy those who could harm his loves, but that love was precisely what the Jedi order as a whole had LOST.
His role was to bring back an element of his love into an order that was ostensibly about those concepts, but had become stagnant, unfeeling, unable to act on instinct, inflexible, and sclerotic.
It was made real in his protection of Luke, and Leia (he did not explicitly save Leia, but it was clear that he realized what would become of her [a slavery far, far worse than any part of the "bikini slave/degrading treatment thing" of the hutt] if the Emperor had his way, not only would her bodily autonomy, or personal dignity be removed; her self-will, self-directive autonomy, her identity itself would disappear, as Skywalker/Vader's had, in his evolution from Jedi to slave). To anyone who thinks that Leia wearing a bikini was a grand tragedy, and symbolic of Lucas being a baddy; imagine Leia wearing the all covering, crippling (with poor technology, and painful prosthetics) Iron Lung Vader wore (which is how ALL of Palpatine's created slaves ended up [Grievous], he depended on taking power over his slaves, weakening them to the point where he could just keep their leash tight), dependent on valves and electronics to breathe, digital optics to see... I don't know that Lucas was contrasting these two ideas, but I do.
The Jedi actually WERE a crumbling, corrupted, broken order, so blinded to their goals by artificially forced ideals, by the overtaking of compassion with a sense of 'duty' and 'service'; their kidnapping, child abduction, propaganda, support for child warriors, clones with one purpose-to die and kill, endless war on "rebels" (who merely wanted freedom, and removal of the oppression imposed by the clearly corrupted Senate), the devotion to political bodies with no concern for the morals and ethics of those bodies... the "Jedi way" (the "ideals" of the Jedi) as Lucas has unraveled, or described it, would not support such a broken body as the Republic Senate. The cancers of corruption were visible to even the most simple of citizens of the Republic, yet the Jedi "served" first.
It is why an order of Guardians of Peace and Justice with Luke as the first teacher would be so different, and embrace different virtues from the old order that had hardened into an unfeeling machine.
"More machine now than man"... that is more true of the old Jedi order. Not Darth Vader.
Darth Vader had failings, human failings, yes. But as the last movie showed, those can be over-come, whereas the sclerotic, compassionless order, and conspiracy of silence in the face of corruption was not sustainable, and possibly evil; how could an order that did not operate on principle but "service to structure" ever be redeemed.
That thing sucked, sorry. It seemed like nothing but an excuse to trot out sexist stereotypes, and in the guise or "just tellin' it like it is"... but only "as it is" when they completely retell the story, and re-frame scenes, events, and points that are made, dismissing, in a sexist way, counterexamples, when taken in context of scenes other than cherry-picked tid-bits of scenes, and extrapolating those to absurdity (I get that Cracked schtick is to use ironic racism/sexism in absurdity for lulz).
Of course, maybe they were just trolling so people like me would write out stupid long things, and look weird. Meh.
posted by infinite intimation at 9:29 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
First, his most recent work (on the Clone Wars telling) is virtually centered on multiple seriously strong women and includes a strong young women character component. Complex, strong, virtuous, solid, broken, equal, powerful, weak, fleshed out characters. It is not for some people; that is cool, but there are young people being exposed to ideas that question what does it mean to be good or bad. Can someone doing good actually cause bad outcomes? Vice versa. Lucas wrote stories about these "big" ideas; maybe he doesn't satisfy you, and they sure aren't perfect, but demanding perfection, or some idealized conception of "modern values", or "wishing" the end product conformed to some single persons conceptions of "getting it right" seems to miss something of what it means to tell a story.
Critiquing things, awesome; dismissing things that don't fit into a theory with pre-concluded conclusions? generally Meh.
Beru (or is running a moisture farm not good enough for these apparently sexist annoying concern-hutts, is her life only of "value", or worth 'appreciation' and admiration if she lives among the gliterati of a capital planet, why do they depict laboring people as not of significance)?
Defining, and dismissing Leia by the fact that she was taken by a (nearly literal) symbol of the Sexist-beast-machine? Hah, they boiled her down to "judged by what she wore (as forced by a symbol of a sexist machine) for one act"; yeah, Lucas is the sexist one.
This is sad-weak (logic; I get they think it is 4lulz). "Lucas wants a phallocracy"... I guess, if your idea of the story is limited to really facile, lulz-seeking as-the-ends style of "analysis".
His whole "epic" is the story of OVERTURNING the "cold, calculating, irrational domination obsessed male-run phallocratic empire, a virtually monolithically male run system", and celebrating the triumph of a system that has Mon Mothma as the strategic (not just the "military aspect", Mothma was, from the Prequels, and since long before the disbanding of the Senate in the opening act, a political mastermind, bringing together disparate rebellious interests under a flag of communal interest... but yeah, the video is about selling titillating racist and sexist stereotypes in the guise of "lookit, sumone who people like is really a secret sexist".
WhatOnEarth; they basically say "Leia rescued people because of her weakness inherent in her female weakness."-what? How would the cracked team write this? Do they have some "non sexist woman ideal character"? Would it be "more of a woman", "more role-model"... if she did... what? It is easy to lol about things that don't conform to our ultimate desired story, but what is "right"? The message is about how wrong things can go when a person believes absolutely that they must take on, alone, the mantle of saving the world/universe/galaxy (I agree, the fleshing out of Amidala was severely incomplete; massively missed opportunity, and in some ideal "I wrote it" world, yes, more "different women characters" would be cool, and possibly make a better lesson/story, it might have also ruined it, who knows).
Anakin brought gender free love, impulse, unthinking compassion, selfless service, and an heroic giving of himself, his absolute belief that he had to (could) protect those around him was a tragic flaw (the very thing about him that is supposed to make him a hero actually turns back around on him, in the tradition of tragic roles established long before storytelling leapt to the film medium, and it breaks him, entrenching his flaws, developing into that which he sought to destroy) he becomes the imbalance, the absolutism which becomes violence and aggression, his tragedy caused a terrifying, and unthinkable failure of what he believed his role to be, and he watched as his power and ability to protect people ate at him until he was existentially (and robotically-symbolically) paralyzed (his [obsessive] love, and devotion, a product of his tragic character, a hero, who risked his life innumerable times, to save people he did not know, he was a hero-hero of the Clone Wars; overall he was a tragic-hero, an examination of what love can morph into (like the novel enduring love is about stalking), where belief that one actually 'can' change the world... He could be selfless and unfeeling about his heroics towards the innocent civilians he served in his short time as a Jedi, the faceless who his actions saved in the war, but Anakin went too far, lost perspective and control with those who he 'knew', he pushed his defense based "need to protect" into an aggressive willingness to destroy those who could harm his loves, but that love was precisely what the Jedi order as a whole had LOST.
His role was to bring back an element of his love into an order that was ostensibly about those concepts, but had become stagnant, unfeeling, unable to act on instinct, inflexible, and sclerotic.
It was made real in his protection of Luke, and Leia (he did not explicitly save Leia, but it was clear that he realized what would become of her [a slavery far, far worse than any part of the "bikini slave/degrading treatment thing" of the hutt] if the Emperor had his way, not only would her bodily autonomy, or personal dignity be removed; her self-will, self-directive autonomy, her identity itself would disappear, as Skywalker/Vader's had, in his evolution from Jedi to slave). To anyone who thinks that Leia wearing a bikini was a grand tragedy, and symbolic of Lucas being a baddy; imagine Leia wearing the all covering, crippling (with poor technology, and painful prosthetics) Iron Lung Vader wore (which is how ALL of Palpatine's created slaves ended up [Grievous], he depended on taking power over his slaves, weakening them to the point where he could just keep their leash tight), dependent on valves and electronics to breathe, digital optics to see... I don't know that Lucas was contrasting these two ideas, but I do.
The Jedi actually WERE a crumbling, corrupted, broken order, so blinded to their goals by artificially forced ideals, by the overtaking of compassion with a sense of 'duty' and 'service'; their kidnapping, child abduction, propaganda, support for child warriors, clones with one purpose-to die and kill, endless war on "rebels" (who merely wanted freedom, and removal of the oppression imposed by the clearly corrupted Senate), the devotion to political bodies with no concern for the morals and ethics of those bodies... the "Jedi way" (the "ideals" of the Jedi) as Lucas has unraveled, or described it, would not support such a broken body as the Republic Senate. The cancers of corruption were visible to even the most simple of citizens of the Republic, yet the Jedi "served" first.
It is why an order of Guardians of Peace and Justice with Luke as the first teacher would be so different, and embrace different virtues from the old order that had hardened into an unfeeling machine.
"More machine now than man"... that is more true of the old Jedi order. Not Darth Vader.
Darth Vader had failings, human failings, yes. But as the last movie showed, those can be over-come, whereas the sclerotic, compassionless order, and conspiracy of silence in the face of corruption was not sustainable, and possibly evil; how could an order that did not operate on principle but "service to structure" ever be redeemed.
That thing sucked, sorry. It seemed like nothing but an excuse to trot out sexist stereotypes, and in the guise or "just tellin' it like it is"... but only "as it is" when they completely retell the story, and re-frame scenes, events, and points that are made, dismissing, in a sexist way, counterexamples, when taken in context of scenes other than cherry-picked tid-bits of scenes, and extrapolating those to absurdity (I get that Cracked schtick is to use ironic racism/sexism in absurdity for lulz).
Of course, maybe they were just trolling so people like me would write out stupid long things, and look weird. Meh.
posted by infinite intimation at 9:29 PM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
Chewbacca could be female for all we know. Equality!Sorry, no. In the only Star Wars movie that matters, Chewbacca's family is explicitly referred to as "his" wife, father, and son.
posted by Flunkie at 10:28 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Regardless of whether Cracked is deliberately trolling or not with this clip, as a devoted fan of both Star Wars and good debate I can't ignore the amount of fail in their Star-Wars-is-Sexist arguments.
Short answer: No (even before watching the clip).
The original Star Wars trilogy, did far more than most other movies have to have a strong, female lead who kicked all kinds of ass. Hell, if one recalls the original movie posters, Leia was right by Luke, not clinging to him like some damsel in distress, but instead gripping a blaster, ready to drop stormtroopers like flies.
Argument #1: Star Wars is sexist because all the women in Jabba's palace were dressed like strippers.
A place filled with slaves, murderers, and crime lords is not a likely place that you're going to find enlightened views on male/female equality. Leia is unarguably gratuitous fan-service as Jabba's slave, but seeing as how Lucas made sure that Carrie Fisher's breasts were taped down for the rest of the trilogy, it's ridiculous to think that her character was intended solely to be boner-bait for audiences
Arguments #2 and #3 and #4: Leia is a poor female lead (and therefore Star Wars is sexist) because she "abandons her people to save her love". In other terms, Leia sucks because she abandons her responsibility as the leader of the Rebel Alliance to chase after her boy toy.
Even though it was presented as one argument, it is so wrong on several different ways.
First, Leia wasn't the only one leading the Alliance. There were numerous other leaders and generals leading, so Leia probably could afford to take a few months off and not expect everything to go to shit in her absence.
Second, one of those aforementioned generals included one Han Solo. So, not only was Leia not abandoning her people to chase some man meat, but she was out to save a vital military asset, not to mention the same man who would lead the Alliance ground troops to victory on Endor.
Thirdly, the fact that she made her own plan to save her man instead of waiting for Luke or some other male to do so strengthens, not weakens her character. By daring to enter into the lair of one of the galaxy's most feared crime lords to steal his most valued possession takes balls of steel, which Leia shows you can have metaphorically even if not anatomically.
posted by Schwartz_User at 10:51 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Short answer: No (even before watching the clip).
The original Star Wars trilogy, did far more than most other movies have to have a strong, female lead who kicked all kinds of ass. Hell, if one recalls the original movie posters, Leia was right by Luke, not clinging to him like some damsel in distress, but instead gripping a blaster, ready to drop stormtroopers like flies.
Argument #1: Star Wars is sexist because all the women in Jabba's palace were dressed like strippers.
A place filled with slaves, murderers, and crime lords is not a likely place that you're going to find enlightened views on male/female equality. Leia is unarguably gratuitous fan-service as Jabba's slave, but seeing as how Lucas made sure that Carrie Fisher's breasts were taped down for the rest of the trilogy, it's ridiculous to think that her character was intended solely to be boner-bait for audiences
Arguments #2 and #3 and #4: Leia is a poor female lead (and therefore Star Wars is sexist) because she "abandons her people to save her love". In other terms, Leia sucks because she abandons her responsibility as the leader of the Rebel Alliance to chase after her boy toy.
Even though it was presented as one argument, it is so wrong on several different ways.
First, Leia wasn't the only one leading the Alliance. There were numerous other leaders and generals leading, so Leia probably could afford to take a few months off and not expect everything to go to shit in her absence.
Second, one of those aforementioned generals included one Han Solo. So, not only was Leia not abandoning her people to chase some man meat, but she was out to save a vital military asset, not to mention the same man who would lead the Alliance ground troops to victory on Endor.
Thirdly, the fact that she made her own plan to save her man instead of waiting for Luke or some other male to do so strengthens, not weakens her character. By daring to enter into the lair of one of the galaxy's most feared crime lords to steal his most valued possession takes balls of steel, which Leia shows you can have metaphorically even if not anatomically.
posted by Schwartz_User at 10:51 PM on April 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
The original Star Wars trilogy, did far more than most other movies have to have a strong, female lead who kicked all kinds of ass. Hell, if one recalls the original movie posters, Leia was right by Luke, not clinging to him like some damsel in distress, but instead gripping a blaster, ready to drop stormtroopers like flies.
Yeah, and besides the shooting bad guys stuff she stands up to Vader and Tarkin as if they are nothing and endures torture without giving up her cause.
She's an all around strong character.
I think Cracked realizes this and was being pretty tongue in cheek.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:56 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Argument #1: Star Wars is sexist because all the women in Jabba's palace were dressed like strippers.
Arguments #2 and #3 and #4: Leia is a poor female lead (and therefore Star Wars is sexist) because she "abandons her people to save her love". In other terms, Leia sucks because she abandons her responsibility as the leader of the Rebel Alliance to chase after her boy toy.
Yeah, except #1 isn't the actual argument they make. And 2, 3, 4 are a bit more nuanced. The arguments the Cracked team makes are as follows:
The Star Wars original trilogy is sexist because:
I. the majority of the woman in the original trilogy are strippers (which they acknowledge does not actually hold up because Mon Mothma was not a stipper)
II. George Lucas has serious issues with women as evidenced by Leia being a bad role model.
II. Leia is a bad role model because she:
a) bails on the rebellion & avenging the destruction of Alderaan to rescue Han.
b) blows up Jabba's sail barg killing Jabba's other slave girls. Who, being slave girls, probably did not deserve to die in a fiery explosion.
c) her rescue attempt fails and she has to be rescued by a dude.
I don't actually care because Leia was never a role model for me, but I am a fan of accuracy in debates.
posted by nooneyouknow at 11:39 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Arguments #2 and #3 and #4: Leia is a poor female lead (and therefore Star Wars is sexist) because she "abandons her people to save her love". In other terms, Leia sucks because she abandons her responsibility as the leader of the Rebel Alliance to chase after her boy toy.
Yeah, except #1 isn't the actual argument they make. And 2, 3, 4 are a bit more nuanced. The arguments the Cracked team makes are as follows:
The Star Wars original trilogy is sexist because:
I. the majority of the woman in the original trilogy are strippers (which they acknowledge does not actually hold up because Mon Mothma was not a stipper)
II. George Lucas has serious issues with women as evidenced by Leia being a bad role model.
II. Leia is a bad role model because she:
a) bails on the rebellion & avenging the destruction of Alderaan to rescue Han.
b) blows up Jabba's sail barg killing Jabba's other slave girls. Who, being slave girls, probably did not deserve to die in a fiery explosion.
c) her rescue attempt fails and she has to be rescued by a dude.
I don't actually care because Leia was never a role model for me, but I am a fan of accuracy in debates.
posted by nooneyouknow at 11:39 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Instead, I really wanted to be R2-D2.
As did I. And then I went to college to study human-cyborg relations, and then I became a cyborg. Maybe I should've stuck with R2.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 11:43 PM on April 17, 2011
As did I. And then I went to college to study human-cyborg relations, and then I became a cyborg. Maybe I should've stuck with R2.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 11:43 PM on April 17, 2011
Regarding Lucas (and, sadly, Spielberg) and women: Lucas originally wanted Marion and Indy to have slept together when she was eleven years old.
Lucas — I was thinking that this old guy could have been [Indiana's] mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.... He’s thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve. It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.posted by tzikeh at 12:29 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Spielberg — And promiscuous. She came onto him.
Lucals — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it’s an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she’s sixteen or seventeen it’s not interesting anymore.
There's probably a fun informal way to test this. Fire up LEGO Star Wars: The Original Trilogy and figure out how many characters are female and how many of those you actually want to play as.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 12:43 AM on April 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 12:43 AM on April 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
Despite superior numbers, advanced weapons, and superb training, they were utterly defeated by a small Rebel Alliance force with the assistance of the Ewoks
Yeah, right. Running around like twats, firing at everything in sight except the people they're actually trying to hit. "Hi, there, I'm an Imperial Stormtrooper. Shoot me at you leisure, while my buddy drives his hoverbike into a tree!"
Superb training, all right. Superb training by the Keystone Kops.
posted by Grangousier at 1:21 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yeah, right. Running around like twats, firing at everything in sight except the people they're actually trying to hit. "Hi, there, I'm an Imperial Stormtrooper. Shoot me at you leisure, while my buddy drives his hoverbike into a tree!"
Superb training, all right. Superb training by the Keystone Kops.
posted by Grangousier at 1:21 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Two points:
1. women are clearly capable of becoming Jedi Knights, because Leia has the 'gift' along with Luke. So why are there no female Jedi Knights?
2. Leia and Han are the Bogart and Bacall of science fiction. Lucas lucked out with Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford.
posted by Summer at 2:21 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
1. women are clearly capable of becoming Jedi Knights, because Leia has the 'gift' along with Luke. So why are there no female Jedi Knights?
2. Leia and Han are the Bogart and Bacall of science fiction. Lucas lucked out with Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford.
posted by Summer at 2:21 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
All the Jedi, including female ones were killed in off shortly before Luke and Leia were born, as shown in the prequels.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:00 AM on April 18, 2011
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:00 AM on April 18, 2011
So it was an equal-opportunities cult? That's one thing in its favour. Were there any women in that Jedi Council thing? Or were they just Jedi foot soldiers?
posted by Summer at 4:17 AM on April 18, 2011
posted by Summer at 4:17 AM on April 18, 2011
I believe there are female player characters in the Knights of the Old Republic games.
Basically, Bioware is doing a better Star Wars than Lucas ever did.
posted by LogicalDash at 4:21 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Basically, Bioware is doing a better Star Wars than Lucas ever did.
posted by LogicalDash at 4:21 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Were there any women in that Jedi Council thing?
Appears so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:36 AM on April 18, 2011
Appears so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:36 AM on April 18, 2011
Shaak Ti FTW! I could watch Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars all day long...
posted by mikelieman at 7:00 AM on April 18, 2011
posted by mikelieman at 7:00 AM on April 18, 2011
women are clearly capable of becoming Jedi Knights, because Leia has the 'gift' along with Luke. So why are there no female Jedi Knights?
In the original trilogy, there were only three remaining Jedi - and in the prequels, there were a unch of female Jedi. I'd say you could make a better case that their absence from leading protagonist roles is sexist than from their putative absence from the setting.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:01 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
In the original trilogy, there were only three remaining Jedi - and in the prequels, there were a unch of female Jedi. I'd say you could make a better case that their absence from leading protagonist roles is sexist than from their putative absence from the setting.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:01 AM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Running around like twats, firing at everything in sight except the people they're actually trying to hit.
"Only Imperial Stormtroopers could be so precise." -- Just another one in a long string of lies Obi-Wa Kenobi told Luke Skywalker.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:40 AM on April 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
Leigh Brackett did co-write Empire.
And almost nothing she wrote survived to the shooting draft. I've read her version; it's a different movie. The dialog in the final version isn't close to hers at all.
posted by grubi at 8:25 AM on April 18, 2011
And almost nothing she wrote survived to the shooting draft. I've read her version; it's a different movie. The dialog in the final version isn't close to hers at all.
posted by grubi at 8:25 AM on April 18, 2011
Apropos of nothing, one of my favorite jokes in (the, I'll say it; underappreciated) Paul comes very early in the film. Pegg and Frost are at ComicCon, in a cafeteria IIRC, and they're just sitting at a table doing their thing - the scene isn't at all about this - but if you're paying attention you notice that every single female in the crowded and busy background is dressed as slave Leia.
posted by Naberius at 8:52 AM on April 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 8:52 AM on April 18, 2011 [3 favorites]
Better or worse? Or just different?
It's a little tighter in some spots, but the majority still feels like a first draft (which it was--she died before finishing a better draft). Overall, it feels like a different movie.
So, all three, really. But, in the end, I think I prefer the movie that was made. Lawrence Kasdan should get more credit for the work he did. The dialog is less procedural and feels snappier in the final version. Brackett's dialog was (understandably for a first draft) a little more sterile.
posted by grubi at 9:21 AM on April 18, 2011
It's a little tighter in some spots, but the majority still feels like a first draft (which it was--she died before finishing a better draft). Overall, it feels like a different movie.
So, all three, really. But, in the end, I think I prefer the movie that was made. Lawrence Kasdan should get more credit for the work he did. The dialog is less procedural and feels snappier in the final version. Brackett's dialog was (understandably for a first draft) a little more sterile.
posted by grubi at 9:21 AM on April 18, 2011
How much of the story arc can we credit to her? Because writing is a lot more than dialogue.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:54 AM on April 18, 2011
posted by shakespeherian at 9:54 AM on April 18, 2011
Leia is alright and all, but I couldn't let this thread go by without a mention of Mara Jade, my favoritest female Star Wars character ever. She is a total badass - if you're really looking for a complex female Star Wars character like I was as a little girl, start here.
(It's a little annoying how she loses her edge throughout the books and becomes a good guy/wife/mother/victim in the end. But still. She is teh awesome and I still have her action figure here at my grown-up desk.)
posted by bookgirl18 at 11:13 AM on April 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
(It's a little annoying how she loses her edge throughout the books and becomes a good guy/wife/mother/victim in the end. But still. She is teh awesome and I still have her action figure here at my grown-up desk.)
posted by bookgirl18 at 11:13 AM on April 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
One of the things that they ignored is their assumption that female characters in Star Wars can be recognized by traditional human/Earth secondary sexual characteristics. Sure, your green skin slaves have knockers, but do all the other species?
Maybe '3PO is calling Jawas filthy creatures because they are an all-female parthenogenic race? How about those Gamorreans? How many nipples are on the milk line (assuming they are mammalian)? In Episode IV there are a pair of bird legs that walk in from of the camera at one point. Who's to say that there isn't a cloaca up top?
Oh and Leia blowing up the palace? Didn't happen. Blew up the pleasure barge. Were all the strippers on it? No. At least one is presumably dead: crushed and par-digested in the belly of a rotting Rancor. Just saying.
posted by plinth at 11:31 AM on April 18, 2011
Maybe '3PO is calling Jawas filthy creatures because they are an all-female parthenogenic race? How about those Gamorreans? How many nipples are on the milk line (assuming they are mammalian)? In Episode IV there are a pair of bird legs that walk in from of the camera at one point. Who's to say that there isn't a cloaca up top?
Oh and Leia blowing up the palace? Didn't happen. Blew up the pleasure barge. Were all the strippers on it? No. At least one is presumably dead: crushed and par-digested in the belly of a rotting Rancor. Just saying.
posted by plinth at 11:31 AM on April 18, 2011
I always thought the story of that "I love you" "I know" line was that Carrie Fisher was always so coked up and drunk that it took several run thrus of her lines to get them straight so on one of the takes Harrison did his smug throwaway line that someone in the editing booth liked - and that's what they went with...?
posted by sweetmarie at 12:03 PM on April 18, 2011
posted by sweetmarie at 12:03 PM on April 18, 2011
According to Wikipedia:
One memorable exchange of dialogue was partially ad-libbed. Originally, Lucas wrote a scene in which Princess Leia professed her love to Han Solo, with Han replying "I love you too." Harrison Ford felt the characterization was not being used effectively, and Kershner agreed. After several takes, the director told the actor to improvise on the spot. Ford changed Solo's line to "I know."[14]posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:19 PM on April 18, 2011
Fire up LEGO Star Wars: The Original Trilogy and figure out how many characters are female and how many of those you actually want to play as.
Lando, everytime. With the Chicken Gun.
posted by KingEdRa at 12:19 PM on April 18, 2011
Lando, everytime. With the Chicken Gun.
posted by KingEdRa at 12:19 PM on April 18, 2011
"Running around like twats, firing at everything in sight except the people they're actually trying to hit."
Stormtroopers VS. Old School (1978) BSG Cylons: The Battle of The Gangs That Couldn't Shoot Straight
posted by KingEdRa at 12:27 PM on April 18, 2011
Stormtroopers VS. Old School (1978) BSG Cylons: The Battle of The Gangs That Couldn't Shoot Straight
posted by KingEdRa at 12:27 PM on April 18, 2011
How much of the story arc can we credit to her?
Not sure. How much of was given to her by Lucas? The full script is online somewhere. If you can't find it, let me know; I could email it to you if you'd like.
posted by grubi at 1:20 PM on April 18, 2011
Not sure. How much of was given to her by Lucas? The full script is online somewhere. If you can't find it, let me know; I could email it to you if you'd like.
posted by grubi at 1:20 PM on April 18, 2011
Despite superior numbers, advanced weapons, and superb training, they were utterly defeated by a small Rebel Alliance force with the assistance of the Ewoks
I wonder if this came out of the period when Lucas was going to direct Apocalypse Now
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 4:50 PM on April 18, 2011
I wonder if this came out of the period when Lucas was going to direct Apocalypse Now
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 4:50 PM on April 18, 2011
But on the other, her slave outfit is not exactly a strong proclamation of gender equality.Girls at cons seem to really like wearing that outfit though, at least from the pictures I've seen.
Anyway, Leia always seemed like a pretty strong independent women to me. Especially given this movie was made in the 1970s. I mean think about the rescue scene in Star Wars They are 'rescuing a princess' yet when they get there she's more incredulous then grateful. She never comes across as needing men to rescue her, and in fact she tries to rescue Han, which the nitpickers in the video say doesn't count because it was a bad idea. But male characters in starwars make bad decisions too, such as Luke leaving Yoda's planet before his training was complete, resulting in everyone getting captured by the empire.
The problem with any story is that if characters don't make mistakes then there is no story
In order for Leia to be a 'sexist' character her decision making would have to be worse then the other characters, and that's obviously not the case.
posted by delmoi at 6:50 PM on April 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Regarding guys in miniskirts on Star Trek, it happened in the first season as well. There is a different male extra in the intergalactic cheerleader outfit in season 1 episode 25, Conspiracy, from time 25:55 to 26:25. I'm pretty sure the same guy in the same skirt can be briefly seen in either the second half of Encounter at Far Point or in The Naked Now (it's an evacuation scene, he flashes by for a moment, but I can't remember when it was).
I'm just throwing this out there because I noticed it too; while the world of Star Trek Trivia is pretty comprehensive, I haven't found any other references to this. If given the choice of Starfleet uniforms I would choose the skirt over the trousers and poorly-fitting tunic that always rides up, black socks and shoes be damned.
posted by peeedro at 8:31 PM on April 18, 2011
I'm just throwing this out there because I noticed it too; while the world of Star Trek Trivia is pretty comprehensive, I haven't found any other references to this. If given the choice of Starfleet uniforms I would choose the skirt over the trousers and poorly-fitting tunic that always rides up, black socks and shoes be damned.
posted by peeedro at 8:31 PM on April 18, 2011
I think the strangest thing I got from Wil Wheaton's autoio was the form-shaping musclesuits/corsets the cast of TNG had to wear to create that fitted unitard look.
Knowing that makes watching the old episodes seem very unsettling, to me.
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on April 18, 2011
Knowing that makes watching the old episodes seem very unsettling, to me.
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on April 18, 2011
It's "expanded universe," but it should be pointed out that right after Return of the Jedi, Leia decides to give this whole Jedi training thing a try, and gets far enough in to craft her own lightsaber (yellow, I believe). She eventually gives it up because she can leave all that crap to Luke; she has a galactic government to run, and a responsibility-challenged manchild of a husband to wrangle. (That last part is my speculation -- you've got to figure Han is just going to be a shit disciplinarian to your kids. I guess we eventually see where that goes...)
Lawrence Kasdan should get more credit for the work he did. The dialog is less procedural and feels snappier in the final version. Brackett's dialog was (understandably for a first draft) a little more sterile.
I have no evidence, but I always suspected that Vader's line to Boba Fett in Empire -- "No disintegrations." -- is a total Brackettism. It's very pulpy, and at no point in any of the other movies do we see any kind of disintegration; it's like an artifact from a different draft or whatever.
posted by Amanojaku at 10:17 AM on April 19, 2011
Lawrence Kasdan should get more credit for the work he did. The dialog is less procedural and feels snappier in the final version. Brackett's dialog was (understandably for a first draft) a little more sterile.
I have no evidence, but I always suspected that Vader's line to Boba Fett in Empire -- "No disintegrations." -- is a total Brackettism. It's very pulpy, and at no point in any of the other movies do we see any kind of disintegration; it's like an artifact from a different draft or whatever.
posted by Amanojaku at 10:17 AM on April 19, 2011
Haughty and proud and feisty and she even built her own light saber
All Jedis build their own lightsabres.
Were there any women in that Jedi Council thing?
In the expanded universe, which - granted, Lucas has basically nothing to do with, female characters are much better represented than in the movies. Jaina Solo (daughter of Han and Leia) kicks ass up and down the galaxy. She's the Sword of the Frikkin' Jedi.
She eventually gives it up because she can leave all that crap to Luke; she has a galactic government to run, and a responsibility-challenged manchild of a husband to wrangle. (That last part is my speculation -- you've got to figure Han is just going to be a shit disciplinarian to your kids. I guess we eventually see where that goes...)
And later on in the expanded universe, she finishes her jedi training.
/EmbarrassedToAdmitHeReadAllTheExpandedUniverseBooksPost-Jedi
posted by antifuse at 7:49 PM on April 27, 2011
All Jedis build their own lightsabres.
Were there any women in that Jedi Council thing?
In the expanded universe, which - granted, Lucas has basically nothing to do with, female characters are much better represented than in the movies. Jaina Solo (daughter of Han and Leia) kicks ass up and down the galaxy. She's the Sword of the Frikkin' Jedi.
She eventually gives it up because she can leave all that crap to Luke; she has a galactic government to run, and a responsibility-challenged manchild of a husband to wrangle. (That last part is my speculation -- you've got to figure Han is just going to be a shit disciplinarian to your kids. I guess we eventually see where that goes...)
And later on in the expanded universe, she finishes her jedi training.
/EmbarrassedToAdmitHeReadAllTheExpandedUniverseBooksPost-Jedi
posted by antifuse at 7:49 PM on April 27, 2011
Haughty and proud and feisty and she even built her own light saber
All Jedis build their own lightsabres.
No, she's extra awesome and hand-carves the shaft of the lightsaber from a rancor tooth:
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:31 PM on April 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
All Jedis build their own lightsabres.
No, she's extra awesome and hand-carves the shaft of the lightsaber from a rancor tooth:
Tenel Ka struggled with the importance of a lightsaber, believing that it was the warrior's skill that mattered, and not their weapon.[5]While her friends began constructing their lightsabers, Tenel Ka set out doing rigorous physical training to prove to herself that she was able to handle a lightsaber, and upon hearing from Lowbacca that the three were nearly complete, began creating her own.[5]Of course, this construction turns out shoddy, causes her blade to die, and leads to her losing an arm, but I think we all learned an important lesson about hubris from that one.
Tenel Ka considered several options for the lightsaber handle, wanting something suitable for a warrior of Dathomir, thinking of the rancor as the appropriate symbol. She then remembered that she had kept two of the smaller teeth from her grandmother's favorite rancor, when it had died a few years earlier. The two treasured possessions would be of the right shape and size.
With Lowbacca flying her to a volcano, Tenel Ka traveled down a lava tube and found the crystals within that she used as her lightsaber's focusing crystals. Back at the temple, Tenel Ka realized the tooth's hollow that she had chosen was a little too small for the crystal arrangement she had hoped for. Her closer inspection also revealed a tiny flaw in each hazy volcanic crystal, but decided to make do as her sense of competition urged her to complete its construction quickly. Her blade was a white-gray color due to the volcano's crystals.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:31 PM on April 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ok, but my point was that they *all* build their own lightsabers (in general). The fact that she made a crappy one is neither here nor there. :P
posted by antifuse at 8:37 AM on April 28, 2011
posted by antifuse at 8:37 AM on April 28, 2011
No, no, you're missing my point, which was that the KJA book Lightsabers shows her going through the process of personally gathering the crystal for her saber and carving the handle BY HAND like some kind of teenaged artisan, which made her seem extra awesome to me as a teenage girl.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:51 AM on April 28, 2011
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:51 AM on April 28, 2011
The one female protagonist they exclude outright isn't even a great example. Yes, on the one hand, Princess Leia is a strong woman. But on the other, her slave outfit is not exactly a strong proclamation of gender equality.
HabeasCorpus, are you of the impression that prisoners are generally allowed to pick out their own outfits?
posted by IAmBroom at 4:26 PM on April 29, 2011
HabeasCorpus, are you of the impression that prisoners are generally allowed to pick out their own outfits?
posted by IAmBroom at 4:26 PM on April 29, 2011
It was chosen by the director, though.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:31 PM on April 29, 2011
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:31 PM on April 29, 2011
True, LIB, but the character's reaction to being put on display as a sexual object was to strangle the fucker who did it to her with her own chains. If that's not empowerment...
posted by IAmBroom at 11:31 PM on April 29, 2011
posted by IAmBroom at 11:31 PM on April 29, 2011
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Also, George Lucas hates women.
posted by mikeh at 5:08 PM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]