I don't own a TV; what are the networks showing right now?Totally meaningless shit: stock footage of Bin Laden and the twin towers. They're just killing time until the official presidential announcement.
Who is Usama Bin Landen? Whoever he is, Fox confirms he is dead.LOL, no they don't. They "confrim" that Usama Bin Landen is dead.
I also wonder if it would have been better to capture him alive.I don't think so. I think it would have been really hard to figure out what to do with him that wouldn't make him into more of a martyr.
CNN is saying that he was taken by US forces in Pakistan.Huh. How's that going to play in Pakistan?
Al-Qaida terrorists have threatened to unleash a "nuclear hellstorm" on the West if their leader and world's most wanted terrorist Osama bin Laden is nabbed.posted by Rhaomi at 8:07 PM on May 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
A senior Al-Qaida commander has claimed that the terror group has stashed away a nuclear bomb in Europe which will be detonated if bin Laden is ever caught or assassinated, according to new top secret files made public by whistleblower website WikiLeaks.
Usama Bin Laden is the name on the FBI wanted poster.Thank you for confriming that Usama Bin Landen is not.
Who cares?I saw those buildings burning with my own two eyes. As I watched them, I was fully aware that I had several friends and family who worked in and near them, and that I had no idea whether any of them were alive and well, trapped, or dead.
Who cares?I saw those buildings burning with my own two eyes. As I watched them, I was fully aware that I had several friends and family who worked in and near them, and that I had no idea whether any of them were alive and well, trapped, or dead.
It never made sense. That’s what I wish I’d said sooner and louder and more often. The whole concept of Al Qaeda is wrong. The name means “The Base” in Arabic, and the idea is that it’s a central clearinghouse for dozens of different guerrilla groups, sharing an Islamic ideology but representing different countries and tribes and languages. They get together and share intelligence and personnel and materiel, because they’re all good Muslims working for a common cause. It’s the old kiddie dream of a vast umbrella group of baddies, S.P.E.C.T.R.E from Man from Uncle, KAOS in Get Smart, the ridiculous villain and his volcano HQ in every lame Bond film.Is There an Al Qaeda?
It’s just a terrible idea. The last thing any sane guerrilla group wants to do is to go to an international guerrilla jamboree like the Boy Scouts. Sure, you’ll share ideas and prop up each others’ morale—and in the meantime, the informers—because every decent-sized guerrilla group must assume it’s been penetrated—will be taking careful notes, taking quiet candid pictures, and putting together organizational charts. By the time you go to your home country from the big Jihad Jamboree in Waziristan or Tora Bora, you can be sure that the informers have shared their info with their handlers. And although some intel agencies can be stingy, most of them share info very readily, so every informer has in effect given the breakdown of every local group to every intel agency in the world.
And that’s death to a guerrilla, literally death, and not a quick or easy death either. Sharing info is good for intelligence agencies (most of the time; there are exceptions, like sharing the identity of some agents), but it’s the worst thing in the world for guerrillas.
I wonder what he died from.Lead poisoning, apparently.
Have the usual USA=EVIL brigade claimed this is a gross violation of Osama Bin Laden's human rights/a grievous imperialist assault on Pakistan's sovereignty/a cowboy invitation to retaliation/a propaganda bonanza for Al Queda on the 'Arab Street' and all part of a CIA plot to cover up their own involvement in 9/11? No? Good. But they will you know.I have an inkjet printer you can use if you want to print up a whole newsletter full of things you want 2-dimensional characters to say
Not seeing any reaction on the Pakistani English language papers - anything in the Urdu pressDawn.com is getting _hammered_ right now; they've put up a notice on their website. Hell, BBC's website also seems to be hammered, but they have thicker pipes.
The wind hissed as if welcoming usposted by unliteral at 9:13 PM on May 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
The pine swayed creating a lot of fuss
And the tiny cuckoo sang it away
A song very melodious and gay
rm -rf /bin/ladenposted by kmz at 9:37 PM on May 1, 2011 [29 favorites]
Officials on the handling of OBL's body: "We are making sure it is handled in accordance with Islamic tradition and practice."
"But you, Mr. Trump, recognized that the real problem was a lack of leadership. And so ultimately, you didn't blame Lil' Jon or Meatloaf. You fired Gary Busey. And these are the kind of decisions that would keep me up at night. (Laughter and applause.) Well handled, sir. Well handled."posted by Missiles K. Monster at 9:44 PM on May 1, 2011 [32 favorites]
Officials on the handling of OBL's body: "We are making sure it is handled in accordance with Islamic tradition and practiceWelcome to the next Republican talking point.
The Prov 24.17, "Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice"; Ezek 18.32, "I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord"; Ezek 33.11, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked." We rejoice when evil acts end; we do not rejoice when anyone falls.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:53 PM on May 1, 2011 [79 favorites]
Better Republicans grousing (they'll always find something to grouse about) than giving a grievance and casus belli to radical Muslims (who in fairness, will always find something to be upset about, just like Republican politicians do).I guess I should be clear that I wasn't advocating doing differently.
No, I'm just reading the words. I have no opinion on this, but that's what was said: 'after'.google "killed after a shootout"
It looks not so much like celebration or recognition of a globally significant event as it does the spill-out from the bars at 1 AM.From what little I've seen/heard from the crowd on TV, it seems to be mostlly kids who are hoping to get out of final exams tomorrow...
I think it's a poor choice of words, as to my ears 'after' means 'after'More accurately, you think it's a poor choice of words because to your ears, 'after' means what 'after' means to your ears.
Lovecraft in Brooklyn: "I'm often found drunkenly singing the Star-Spangled Banner and being an Ugly American but the fact that it took us 10 years to kill bin Laden isn't exactly filling me with pride."
In September 2010, the CIA presented Obama with a set of assessments that indicated bin Laden could be hiding in a compound in northwest Pakistan. Starting in mid-March, the president convened at least nine National Security Council meetings to discuss the intelligence suggesting bin Laden may be hiding out virtually in plain sight.posted by BobbyVan at 11:15 PM on May 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
The CIA developed their theory through leads from individuals in bin Laden’s inner circle and other captured fighters following Sept. 11. Intelligence officials were repeatedly told about one courier working for bin Laden, as someone that America’s Most Wanted Man deeply trusted.
The detainees provided U.S. officials the courier’s nickname, and identified him as protégé of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and a trusted assistant of Abu Faraj al Libbi, once al-Qaida’s third highest ranking official. (He was captured in 2005).
That Google Maps location isn't legit, is it? Seems so very central, plus being terribly conveniently surrounded by hospitals and schools, etc.Everything I've read says it is. It's a rich suburban neighborhood mostly populated by retired military officers.
You heard it here first: Obama wins 2012 election...Uh yeah, just like bush ensured his own victory by capturing Saddam! Oh wait. People won't remember this in, what is it, 18 months?
Mefi's Own @Hodgman: I think it's ok to take a 12 hour pause on cynicism.How is celebrating someone's death not cynical?
SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: [...] During the raid, we lost one helicopter due to mechanical failure.Same White House briefing:
Q Yes, hey, how are you doing? My question would be, what was the type of the helicopter that failed? And what was the nature of that mechanical failure?Come on, guys, get your stories straight.
SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Can’t go into details at this time.
SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: We didn’t say it was mechanical.
rm -rf /bin/laden"wouldn't it be kill -9 ... wait. it's not really -9, since it took 10 fucking years! NVM...
On CBS, Jere Van Dyk, who was held captive by the Taliban for 45 days, struggled to maintain his composure as he recalled how his captors had boasted, "You will never find Bin Laden."posted by milestogo at 7:24 AM on May 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
"No telephone & no internet" (and burning trash) is also puzzling to me, but not because I think that "really secure" stuff could be set up. Rather, because it calls attention to you.This "no telephone & no internet" thing is puzzling to me. I personally know several geeks who could get me set up with really, really secure internet, and I think it wouldn't take me more than one hop to get to someone who could spell out some more some more or less uncrackable encryption and data security practices.You forget the weakness in that system. The humans operating it. They could spill the wrong info, talk on an insecure line or, or someone forwards an E-mail. You have no internet so there are zero mistakes.
EXCLUSIVE – THE TICK-TOCK: INSIDE THE SITUATION ROOM – Obama rejected original plan for bombing; wanted proof – Navy SEALS held two rehearsals last month, with war cabinet monitoring from White House – Raid planned for Saturday but pushed off a day because of weather – Chopper stalled as it hovered over the compound – Forces blew it up and left in a reinforcement craft -- How the fiery raid went down, as told to Playbook by senior administration officials: The compound -- about an acre, with a three-story house – is in Abbottabad, a suburb of the Pakistani capital, Islamabad. Officials were very suspicious of the 12- to 18-foot-high walls, and seven-foot wall on the upper balcony. Residents burned their trash, and there was no telephone or Internet connection to the compound, valued at $1 million. But officials never had anything directly proving that Osama bin Laden was living there. The U.S. had discovered the compound by following a personal courier for bin Laden. Officials didn’t learn his name until 2007, then it took two years to find him and track him back to this compound, which was discovered in August 2010. “It was a “Holy cow!” moment,” an official said.A lot more at the link.
The original plan for the raid was to bomb the house, but President Obama ultimately decided against that. “The helicopter raid was riskier. It was more daring,” an official said. “But he wanted proof. He didn’t want to just leave a pile of rubble.” Officials also knew there were 22 people living there, and Obama wanted to be sure not to kill all the civilians. So he ordered officials to come up with an air-assault plan. The forces held rehearsals of the raid on April 7 and April 13, with officials monitoring the action from Washington.
As the actual raid approached, daily meetings were held of the national security principals, chaired by National Security Adviser Tom Donilon, and their deputies, chaired by John Brennan, the president’s counterterrorism adviser. At an April 19 meeting in the Situation Room, the president approved the assault, in principle, as the course of action. He ordered the force to fly to the region to conduct it. On April 28, just after his East Room announcement that CIA Director Leon Panetta would be succeeding Robert Gates as Defense Secretary, the president held another meeting in the Situation Room, and went through everyone’s final recommendations. He didn’t announce his decision at that time, but kept his counsel overnight.
At 8:20 a.m. Friday, the president informed National Security Adviser Tom Donilon that he was authorizing the operation.
Can you imagine the jingoistic paroxysms that Fox News would whip themselves into? The unending spin wars over the smallest details, like OJ's trial but a million times worse as everything is spun against Obama? The painful way the rest of the media would align themselves in their various passive stenographer roles? The chance for Osama to get in front of cameras, perhaps even give martyr's speeches?Because clearly ephemeral media hype is a more important concern then, you know, following the constitution or anything like that. Do you seriously think any of that shit matters? The TV has an off button, you know.
Funny, it makes me wonder how many of the Mideast's problems can be traced to a fatal love of conspiracy theories. Makes it hard to think clearly or act decisively.Are Americans actually any less conspiratorial minded? How many people thought Saddam was involved in 9/11 or that he had WMDs?
The US administration avoids a show trial which could be a major propaganda op for the likes of Ahmadinejad. OBL goes out in what passes for a blaze of glory, without suffering the humiliation of being discovered living conveniently close to the cinema and the golf club.First of all, Ahmadinejad and Osama were enemies. AQ was opposed to the Iranian regime. Second of all, wouldn't it have been better to humiliate him with a trial?
It's bizarre enough that it was noticed."No telephone & no internet" (and burning trash) is also puzzling to me, but not because I think that "really secure" stuff could be set up. Rather, because it calls attention to you.I keep telling you, no it doesn't. An awful lot of people don't bother with landlines in Pakistan. I doubt they had cellphones, either, but there wouldn't have been any visible evidence of those from the outside, anyway, and that's what most people would assume they used, if they thought about it. Electronic communication lines are not nearly as ubiquitous in Pakistan as they are in the US, or, I would imagine, most of Europe. Not having an internet connection is not really bizarre.
It matters inasmuch as it leads to bad publicity and image for the US. Pragmatically I think it would be worse overall than the hit for him not being captured alive.First of all, the U.S. "Image" around the world is shit. We had a chance to fix things after Obama was elected but that's long gone. Second of all in what planet does having the U.S. government assassinate people make us look better then arresting them and bringing them to trial? The idea is absurd. It isn't like they wouldn't get a conviction.
First of all, the U.S. "Image" around the world is shit.Your link shows a 47% approval rating. Anyway, not anything that would somehow be 'damaged' by actually having a trial for bin Laden. And "The increases the U.S. saw in 2009 did not necessarily carry over into 2010, and approval suffered double-digit declines in 14 countries, including Egypt, Japan, and the United Kingdom."
Wrong
This is pretty child-like. We tried to get him, but shot him in the process. Oh well.No shit! Maybe that's why I wrote "Anyway, they said they gave him the opportunity to surrender and he refused, it doesn't sound like this was an extra-judicial killing (they would have just bombed the place). But still, it would have been better to capture him alive, I think. " in my first response. I realize that the thread is long, there are a lot of comments, but you don't have to be an idiot. I was replying to someone who said it would be better for him to be killed then captured.
I'd have strongly preferred that Osama bin Laden be captured rather than killed so that he could be tried for his crimes and punished in accordance with due process (and to obtain presumably ample intelligence). But if he in fact used force to resist capture, then the U.S. military was entitled to use force against him, the way the American police routinely does against suspects who use violence to resist capture.posted by Ironmouth at 8:32 AM on May 2, 2011 [4 favorites]
Your link shows a 47% approval rating. Anyway, not anything that would somehow be 'damaged' by actually having a trial for bin Laden. And "The increases the U.S. saw in 2009 did not necessarily carry over into 2010, and approval suffered double-digit declines in 14 countries, including Egypt, Japan, and the United Kingdom."That's true. So you honestly think that those numbers would drop if we were able to capture bin Laden alive and put him on trail? Because what I was saying was that that would not happen, that putting bin Laden on trial wouldn't somehow damage the U.S. "image" any worse then it already has been damaged, and not somehow worse then deliberately killing him (which is not what happened).
You skipped over the fact that the US has a better image than any other major power.
In July 2003, detainee received a letter from UBL’s designated courier, Maulawi Abd al-Khaliq Jan, requesting detainee take on the responsibility of collecting donations, organizing travel, and distributing funds to families in Pakistan. UBL stated detainee would be the official messenger between UBL and others in Pakistan. In mid-2003, detainee moved his family to Abbottabad, PK and worked between Abbottabad and Peshawar.posted by geoff. at 8:44 AM on May 2, 2011 [39 favorites]
"During the operation, a photo of his face was transmitted to analysts, who confirmed the identification.posted by ericb at 8:52 AM on May 2, 2011
According to Pentagon officials, photos of Bin Laden's dead face do exist but those widely distributed on the Internet are fake. At some point, if only to convince die-hard Bin Laden followers, officials are expected to release a corpse photo, as has been done in the past when famous villains such as Che Guevara and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein were killed or captured. Additionally, such special ops are typically videotaped by mini-helmet cams to document a sensitive mission and assist in debriefing and future training."
A member of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, Osama bin Laden's network in Yemen, said he had confirmed the news of the killing, calling it a "catastrophe."
"This news has been a catastrophe for us. At first we did not believe it, but we got in touch with our brothers in Pakistan who have confirmed it," a member reached by telephone told an AFP correspondent in Yemen.
A member of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, Osama bin Laden's network in Yemen, said he had confirmed the news of the killing, calling it a "catastrophe."Is that "independent" enough for you lupus_yonderboy?
"This news has been a catastrophe for us. At first we did not believe it, but we got in touch with our brothers in Pakistan who have confirmed it," a member reached by telephone told an AFP correspondent in Yemen.
Because the American troops had better things to focus on than fiddling with the camcorder?A lot of them have helmet cams. It's likely that the killing was on video and I'm sure it's been seen by people in the pentagon.
The corpse was taken to the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, officials told ABC News. The burial at sea was done in accordance with Muslim law -- a Muslim seaman conducted the process, said the prayers, and bin Laden's body was wrapped in the appropriate way.Hahah, how would you like to be that guy?
"Quick, we need someone Muslim to say some prayers before we dump his body in the sea! You're muslim, you want to do it!?"posted by delmoi at 9:51 AM on May 2, 2011 [18 favorites]
"Uh... no..."
"It was reported that bin Laden was buried in a sealed cement box. "Dang, they weren't playing. But it makes me wonder if he'll eventually be found decades from now.
"Khalid Latif, chaplain at New York University and director of its Islamic Center, said that Islamic law is "flexible" in how it handles burial, especially in this case. The question would be not "how to bury a body, but how Osama bin Laden's body would be buried."posted by cashman at 9:59 AM on May 2, 2011
He said that the government's approach was reasonable -- letting bin Laden's body, "wash back and forth in the sea."
Yeah, given the evidence that there was an attack, by American forces, why would the US government use this particular attack, with the crash and all, as The Reason to dig up bin Laden's corpse and present it as newly dead? This isn't the first attack by American forces inside Pakistan, nor would it have been the first use of drones if it had gone down like that. Why use this one, now, rather than an earlier one, if he's really been dead since 2006 and we were just covering it up?I didn't say that we've been covering up his death for years; I said he's been dead for years.
Also except for the fact that this is not even just Obama's assertion. The idea that the government is lying about this implicates not just Obama, but the entirety of his administration.Yeah it would require hundreds of people to fake this, and some of those people are probably republican supporters. The republicans would absolutely want to exploit Obama lying like this in the election, since they don't benefit from this at all.
After the firefight that killed Osama bin Laden, the U.S. used "multiple methods" to positively identify his remains. A senior White House official tells NBC News that the U.S. has completed the DNA analysis and it has come back with a nearly 100 percent match to his relatives. Osama bin Laden's death has been confirmed, with the DNA evidence providing a match with 99.9 percent confidence.posted by ericb at 10:18 AM on May 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
NBC News has also been told that the CIA'S facial recognition technology has identified bin Laden's face with 95 percent certainty -- considered a very high accuracy -- after comparing it to known pictures of him. A woman believed to be his wife also identified him by name, a senior U.S. intelligence official told reporters Monday.
White House officials did not immediately say where or how the testing was done but the test explains why President Barack Obama was confident to announce the death to the world Sunday night. Obama provided no details on the identification process.
The U.S. is believed to have collected DNA samples from bin Laden family members in the years since the 9/11 attacks that triggered the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan. It was unclear whether the U.S. also had fingerprints or some other means to identify the body on site.
It’s possible that the government collected samples from some of the places where bin Laden lived over the years, said Dr. George Michalopoulos, chairman of the department of pathology at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. Comparing those samples with the ones from bin Laden’s body would be the best way to identify the remains, said Michalopoulos.
“One way to identify a body is through comparison with blood samples or with DNA from a toothbrush or comb,” Michalopoulos said. “That’s extremely accurate.”
Without samples from bin Laden himself, pathologists could have identified the body in much the same way as some of the 9/11 victims were identified -- by comparing blood and tissue samples with those from close relatives.
“If you use DNA from immediate relatives such as children or parents, you can make an identification with about 95 percent accuracy,” said Michalopoulos.
In the case of some of those who died in 9/11 family members were asked to supply hair samples from brushes of their loved ones, said Dr. John Tomaszewski, president of the American Society for Clinical Pathology.
If this is how bin Laden has been identified, “it’s a very ironic twist,” Tomaszewski said. ... *
This is an ongoing and really fascinating theme in this thread - the implication that doubting the unsupported word of the US government is the same as insanity.Well, it's just a question of competence. Like: is the U.S. government capable of pulling off a conspiracy like this? They couldn't keep torture secret, and that's something that probably everyone involved really wanted to keep secret. I just don't think that part of the U.S. government could keep something like this secret, not only from the American people, but also from other parts of the government, and people who are both loyal to the republicans and have security clearances and connections with other people involved. It just doesn't seem realistic.
I mean, I can see why Democrats would be jubilant today. But plain old human beings? Not sure I get it, other than pure vengeance.If you think about people who aren't politically plugged in, less sophisticated, who have basically grown up with OBL on TV as the ultimate evil, finding out he's dead would probably pretty exciting. So I can understand why they're doing it.
"The U.S. government said it would have been difficult to find a country willing to take bin Laden's body, for fear it would create a permanent shrine. Unconfirmed reports indicate that two countries turned down requests to claim the body: Saudi Arabia and Pakistan."posted by ericb at 10:28 AM on May 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
I honestly believe this would be an impossible sell with the current lot of cowards in Congress who were terrified of trying Guantanamo detaineesWhy would you need to sell it to congress? You don't need congressional approval to put on a trial.
They've done it before.Those are two examples of the U.S. government lying about the actions of others. I can't think of an example of the U.S. government saying it did something when in, in fact, it didn't. During the Iraq war there was a lot of contrary evidence as well. Barbra Boxer, for example was on the Intel committee and said she didn't believe it. There were weapons inspectors running around, and not finding anything for a couple months.
I mean, isn't the Iraq war an example of such a conspiracy, where the government presented deliberately falsified information to the nation and started yet another destructive war?
Delmoi, the US government wasn't able to keep the fact that it was torturing people secret, but it successfully implied that the people alleging torture were kooks who had an axe to grind. This went on for years.What?
He was president when the operation that culminated last night began.
As the various info bites come in, it seems less reasonable to doubt, but some guy's tweets aren't really something I'll take to the bank, so I will still defer judgement until we get some more hard evidence, please.What about the AFP article about an AQ guy confirming the kill? You still haven't said anything about it.
Why is it such a big deal to you that I might believe in the veracity of this story, if turns out to be true, some hours later than you do, that you are willing to be so very rude to me?I just want to know what you think of the AFP article.
I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons. I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders' rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations.He then continued to deny his involvement late into September.
I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.I think it's completely plausible that after a while he just came to the conclusion that taking credit for 9/11 would elevate him to the status he desired and provoke the response he wished for.
In what historians are calling an unprecedented development in American politics, both major parties decided today to cancel the 2012 election.posted by ericb at 12:37 PM on May 2, 2011 [7 favorites]
The decision to scrap the 2012 contest came on the heels of a new poll showing President Barack Obama with an approval rating of one hundred percent, believed to be a record high for an American president.
Mr. Obama even polled well among Republicans, with a majority of GOP voters agreeing with the statement, “I no longer care that he wasn’t born here.”
The new bipartisan spirit sweeping the nation was captured well by House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), who tearfully told reporters, “This is a great day for America… oh, leave me alone, goddamn it.”
Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump made no official announcement, but sources said he was considering running for Prime Minister of Canada.
The cancellation of the election comes in the aftermath of the death of Osama bin Laden, whose last words reportedly were, “I knew I shouldn’t have signed up for Foursquare.”
Of all the major news networks, Fox News did not report news of bin Laden’s death, saying that it would air cartoons “until further notice.”
In Libya, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi issued the following official statement: “Uh-oh.”
In North Korea, President Kim Jong-Il said this: “I have lost my last friend on Facebook.”
And in Wasilla, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin said this: “We must find and kill Osama bin Laden.”
Yet his death does not mark the end of our effort. There's no doubt that al Qaeda will continue to pursue attacks against us. We must --- and we will -- remain vigilant at home and abroad.The military industrial complex, the TSA, the fear-mongers, and pot-stirrers.
WTF kind of world has ESPN writing the best editorial on this event? Why do sportswriters waste so much time covering sports of they can write like this?Are you kidding? Sports writers write like that all the time. Keith Olberman was a sports writer. Ever see his "Special comments"? Same thing. I find it kind of annoying.
If it's going to take a video of him being shot and a third-party DNA test to confirm to you he's dead, I'm sorry, but super secret special ops missions don't take videographers with themHelmet cams. The CIA used the video to do a facial recognition, and Obama was watching a live stream.
The market is actually down now. Why does capitalism hate America?Another funny thing about this was the whole "and the stock market is up with the news of OBL's death."Don't argue with the market. It is always rational.
I mean, I get it, its a big deal, but its funny to think that the killing of one man somehow made us all wealthier. OBL's death helped my 401k!
Remember when, during the presidential campaign, McCain among others, tried to make hay over comments President Obama had made suggesting he would be willing to make a targeted military intrusion into Pakistan to pursue Osama Bin Laden?
MCCAIN: Now, on this issue of aiding Pakistan, if you're going to aim a gun at somebody, George Shultz, our great secretary of state, told me once, you'd better be prepared to pull the trigger.posted by kirkaracha at 1:08 PM on May 2, 2011 [21 favorites]
I'm not prepared at this time to cut off aid to Pakistan. So I'm not prepared to threaten it, as Senator Obama apparently wants to do, as he has said that he would announce military strikes into Pakistan.
...
Now, you don't do that. You don't say that out loud. If you have to do things, you have to do things, and you work with the Pakistani government.
...
OBAMA: OBAMA: Nobody talked about attacking Pakistan. Here's what I said.
And if John wants to disagree with this, he can let me know, that, if the United States has al Qaeda, bin Laden, top-level lieutenants in our sights, and Pakistan is unable or unwilling to act, then we should take them out.
Now, I think that's the right strategy; I think that's the right policy.
And, John, I -- you're absolutely right that presidents have to be prudent in what they say. But, you know, coming from you, who, you know, in the past has threatened extinction for North Korea and, you know, sung songs about bombing Iran, I don't know, you know, how credible that is. I think this is the right strategy.
Ironically, Bin Laden’s death -- in Pakistan -- recalls one of Obama’s supposed "lowest" moments during the ’08 presidential campaign, in Aug. 2007. In an Aug. 1 speech, per NBC’s John Bailey, Obama delivered these words: “If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and [Pakistan] President Musharraf will not act, we will." At a debate two weeks later, Obama’s Democratic rivals used those remarks to paint Obama as either naïve or inexperienced. Said Hillary Clinton: “Pakistan is on a knife's edge. It is easily, unfortunately, a target for the jihadists. And, therefore, you've got to be very careful about what it is you say with respect to Pakistan.” Said Chris Dodd: “The only person that separates us from a jihadist government in Pakistan with nuclear weapons is President Musharraf. And, therefore, I thought it was irresponsible to engage in that kind of a suggestion here. That's dangerous. Words mean something in campaigns.” And said Edwards: “Musharraf is not a wonderful leader, but he provides some stability in Pakistan. And there is a great risk, if he's overthrown, about a radical government taking over.”posted by ericb at 1:14 PM on May 2, 2011 [10 favorites]
President Barack Obama's chief counterterrorism adviser John Brennan said Monday that U.S. military operatives were prepared to capture Osama bin Laden alive but were "absolutely" ready to kill him if he fought back.posted by ericb at 1:36 PM on May 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
"If we had the opportunity to take him alive, we would have done that," Brennan said during an uncharacteristically candid exchange with reporters at a White House briefing.
Intelligence officials and Obama “extensively” discussed the prospect of capturing bin Laden alive during the U.S. military raid on his compound Sunday, Brennan said, but were “certainly were planning for the possibility … that he would likely resist arrest.” In the end, the al Qaeda leader fought back and was “therefore killed in a fire fight,” Brennan said.
The bottom line, said Brennan, was that “we were not going to put our people at risk.”
Brennan painted a dark scene of bin Laden's final moments. He said the al Qaeda leader used one of his wives as a human shield while he was being shot at. [more]
"There was a female who was in fact in the line of fire that reportedly was used as a shield to shield bin Laden from the incoming fire ... He was engaged in a firefight. Whether or not he got off any rounds, I don't know."posted by ericb at 1:53 PM on May 2, 2011
President Obama's top counterterrorism adviser called it "inconceivable" that Pakistan was not providing a "support system" for Osama bin Laden, who was killed Sunday in a raid in a mansion north of the capital city of Islamabad.posted by ericb at 1:55 PM on May 2, 2011
"We are pursuing all leads on this issue," Deputy National Security Adviser John Brennan said during a White House briefing. "I think people are raising a number of questions, and understandably so."
Brennan said bin Laden likely would not have been able to hide undetected at the compound — which is in close proximity to a Pakistani military installation — without help from within the country. He declined to speculate on what that help might include.
He said the administration is in contact with Pakistan's government and intelligence establishment about the situation.*
In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaida's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden's couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing.President Obama deserves tremendous credit for his courageous decision to embark on a risky assault on bin Laden's compound (instead of an easy drone attack). But as more information is disclosed about the provenance of the intelligence, credit must also be paid to former President Bush and the brave men and women of the CIA.
One man became a particular interest for the agency when another detainee, Abu Faraj al-Libi, told interrogators that when he was promoted to succeed Mohammed as al-Qaida's operational leader he received the word through a courier. Only bin Laden would have given al-Libi that promotion, CIA officials believed.
If they could find that courier, they'd find bin Laden.
The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been repeatedly investigated and criticized for their involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.
"We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.
It certainly points up the fact that the structures that President Bush put into place — military commissions, Guantanamo Bay, the Patriot Act, indefinite detention, and humane treatment, but intensive interrogation to be sure — all contributed to the success we’ve had in the global war on terror.If you think it's a good thing that President Obama has presided over a successful operation to take out the head of Al Qaeda, you need to accept a few inconvenient truths in the process.
Based on the statements of several named CIA senior officials who spoke on record, Pulitzer-prize winning journalist Ron Suskind's book "The Way of the World: A Story of Truth and Hope in an Age of Extremism" states that the White House ordered the CIA to forge a letter made to appear as a letter from the head of Iraqi intelligence, Tahir Jalil Habbush, to Saddam Hussein and backdated to July 1, 2001. The White House also wanted the forged letter to state that Saddam was buying yellowcake from Niger with help from a "small team from the al Qaeda organization."This has been common knowledge for some time. It was immediately suspect because it identified collusion between Iraq and al Qaeda and claimed Saddam was seeking nuclear weapons. It was a ballsy move, and the document was colossally inept to boot. The CIA is tragically incompetent, not because they are dumb, but because they are humans pretending that they can predict the future and affect the outcome positively and predictably with violence.
U.S. intelligence officials stated on the record that President Bush was informed unequivocally in January 2003 that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction. However, eager for "evidence" justifying war against Iraq, the White House ordered the manufacture of a letter stating that 9/11 ringleader Mohamed Atta had trained for his mission in Iraq, thus purporting to establish with finally the existence of an operation link between Saddam and al-Qaeda...
The 2005 release of the so-called Downing Street Memo, a secret British document summarizing a 2002 meeting among British political, intelligence, and defence leaders also tended to show the US and Britain willing to "fix" intelligence as necessary to support the war against Iraq. According to the memo, Chief of the British Secret Intelligence Service Sir Richard Dearlove claimed that "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." ( source )
I'm unconvinced that the "standard" interrogations would have been at all successful had KSM not been "broken" by the waterboarding.What does it matter whether or not you're convinced? The info didn't come from torture, period.
The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been repeatedly investigated and criticized for their involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.President Obama deserves tremendous credit for his courageous decision to embark on a risky assault on bin Laden's compound (instead of an easy drone attack). But as more information is disclosed about the provenance of the intelligence, credit must also be paid to former President Bush and the brave men and women of the CIA."
"'We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day,' said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.
"
"The at-sea burial of Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden was videotaped and probably will be publicly released soon, two Pentagon officials said Monday.posted by ericb at 3:36 PM on May 2, 2011
The officials said photos of the body before its disposal in the North Arabian Sea on Monday also may be released. The officials spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because decisions on releasing the materials were pending.
It was not clear whether the firefight in which U.S. forces are said to have shot bin Laden to death was videotaped.
John Brennan, the White House counterterrorism chief, told reporters that the administration was still deliberating on release of the material. Making it public might satisfy those who would otherwise doubt that it was bin Laden who was killed."
This official White House photograph is being made available only for publication by news organizations and/or for personal use printing by the subject(s) of the photograph. The photograph may not be manipulated in any way and may not be used in commercial or political materials, advertisements, emails, products, promotions that in any way suggests approval or endorsement of the President, the First Family, or the White House.I know, I know, fair use under parody...
Here's the same image with the classified document enhancedOkay, I had the exact same thought.
This official White House photograph is being made available only for publication by news organizations and/or for personal use printing by the subject(s) of the photograph. The photograph may not be manipulated in any way and may not be used in commercial or political materials, advertisements, emails, products, promotions that in any way suggests approval or endorsement of the President, the First Family, or the White House.Everything published by the government is in the public domain, so that disclaimer has no actual legal weight (except maybe the endorsements thing)
Yeah, like Reddit is a credible source. ... I'm going to hedge my bets & start peppering my speech with "noforn" just in case it gives me some kind of insider benefits; it can't hurt. Noforn.It's a classification, like secret, top secret, classified. Noforn is the lowest level. This came out during the wikileaks thing, since most of the documents were not classified but just "noforn"
This official White House photograph is being made available only for publication by news organizations and/or for personal use printing by the subject(s) of the photograph. The photograph may not be manipulated in any way and may not be used in commercial or political materials, advertisements, emails, products, promotions that in any way suggests approval or endorsement of the President, the First Family, or the White House.I thought that photos taken by the Federal government were, if not classified or whatever, public domain.
I assume that we would have never known about this operation if it was a failure (or not at least for a few years).A crashed helicopter is easy to break, but it's difficult to remove evidence of.
Of course, there is one more obvious question unanswered: couldn't they have captured Bin Laden? Didn't the CIA or the Navy Seals or the US Special Forces or whatever American outfit killed him have the means to throw a net over the tiger? "Justice," Barack Obama called his death. In the old days, of course, "justice" meant due process, a court, a hearing, a defence, a trial. Like the sons of Saddam, Bin Laden was gunned down. Sure, he never wanted to be taken alive – and there were buckets of blood in the room in which he died.posted by gman at 4:31 PM on May 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
But a court would have worried more people than Bin Laden. After all, he might have talked about his contacts with the CIA during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, or about his cosy meetings in Islamabad with Prince Turki, Saudi Arabia's head of intelligence. Just as Saddam – who was tried for the murder of a mere 153 people rather than thousands of gassed Kurds – was hanged before he had the chance to tell us about the gas components that came from America, his friendship with Donald Rumsfeld, the US military assistance he received when he invaded Iran in 1980.
from the release of the Birth Certificate, to the Press Correspondence roast, to preempting Trumps t.v. show to announce the bin Laden death. You may be a millionaire, Trump, but this is how big boys play politics.I actually think someone at NBC just had a sense of humor. Apparently it the show was interrupted right when he was about to make a decision on firing someone.
I actually think someone at NBC just had a sense of humor. Apparently it the show was interrupted right when he was about to make a decision on firing someone.I don't know about that. The White House announced a specific time; that time came and went. Even the feed on whitehouse.gov just said something like "President to address nation at 10:30 Eastern" at something like 11:00 Eastern.
However, the actual announcement didn't happen for hours and the news was blowing up on the web anyway.
This came out during the wikileaks thing, since most of the documents were not classified but just 'noforn'
A "training accident" a hundred miles deep into Pakistan?A crashed helicopter is easy to break, but it's difficult to remove evidence of.The cover story pretty well writes itself: Blah Blah Blah, training accident, blah blah, war zone, blah blah foo killed, blah blah.
bring to justice: to capture, try, and usually punish (a criminal, an outlaw, etc.)posted by BungaDunga at 4:53 PM on May 2, 2011
- The Free Dictionary
bring to justice: to punish someone for a crime
- The Free Dictionary
Definition: put on trial
- thesaurus.com
Most often, the terms brought to trial, bring to trial, brought to justice and bring to justice refer to the prosecution at trial of alleged war criminals and political prisoners, as well as those accused of treason or misprision of treason, sexual assault, and other infamous crimes.
- Wikipedia
Just a question: How the fuck would Rumsfeld know? Isn't he just some schmoe on the outside like the rest of us?Are you suggesting that harsh interrogation techniques are still being used, without his knowledge? He would know because he saw all the data that was acquired that way. And plus these guys all know people who know this stuff (which is why a conspiracy to fake this would be impossible)
The demands for physical evidence, like a photo of Obama's shot face, are a little strange. If the US is going to lie about killing Obama, then it would be trivial for the US to fake a photograph. Absolutely trivial.Amazing how many people are making that mistake in this thread.
But, at the same time, I'm unhappy that torture was likely used to gain the information that lead to these results.torture loves maybe be trying to spin it that way but it does not appear to be the case. The information was actually acquired after torture was no longer being used.
Barring a Huey Long "live boy or dead girl" situation, Obama will get re-elected. Nobody can get the GOP nomination without pandering to the crazies, and nobody who panders that much to the crazies will be able to win the general. This was true even before last night.These kind of victories don't translate into election stuff that well. Bush I won the gulf war, then got killed due to the economy. People said Bush II would win for sure after he got Saddam but by the time the election came around the war was more of a liability then anything. Kerry could have won if he wasn't an idiot.
Q You said that Osama bin Laden was actually involved in the firefight, and we had -- it has been reported that he reached for a weapon. Did he get his hand on a gun and did he fire himself?
MR. BRENNAN: He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in. And whether or not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don’t know.
to not be flip, AFAICT when a snatch squad of this importance is given the the go-ahead from the top, their job is to kill everyone between them and the target.According to the NYT, five people were killed. I believe that I previously read that the compound held 22 people.
(...)
Everyone in that "compound" was already dead.
The bottom line is the team that entered that room was met with resistance and took appropriate action.
Also, both the Bin Laden tape and an Al-Jazeerah tape show the kids handling the wreckage of the Special Forces helicopter that went down in bad weather on November 2, 2001[...]Trying to find the full video to verify that the kids are in fact handling the wreckage turns up lots of conspiracy-nutty type videos.
The notion that one fine day bin Laden adorned a burqa and made a trip over perhaps the most treacherous 180 miles of terrain in the world, from Tora Bora to Abbottabad, without catching the attention of Pakistan's vast, richly endowed, and unaccountable military establishment is as ridiculous as any conspiracy theories now being peddled by Pakistan's incorrigible right-wing hacks -- with the most common version simply refusing to believe that he is dead.posted by vidur at 10:49 PM on May 2, 2011 [5 favorites]
It is even less likely that, as U.S. counterterrorism czar John Brennan claimed in a press conference today, Pakistani authorities did not know about the military operation that killed bin Laden until it was over. Abbottabad's Bilal Town neighborhood where bin Laden lived and died was virtually around the corner from the Pakistan Military Academy at Kakul -- Pakistan's West Point, where future General Kayanis and General Pashas are learning to be officers. It doesn't take 40 minutes to start to scramble planes, or get troops to Abbottabad, and there is no getting into the town by land or air without the expressed consent of Pakistan's security establishment. This may not have been an official joint operation, but it was almost certainly a collective effort. [The Lies They Tell Us]
But how does the APHC explain the involvement of foreign mercenaries in Kashmir? Doesn't it damage your cause.Note: His description in that article may not be accurate for his later life. He was assassinated in 2002.
Again I would put the blame on Indian intransigence. The armed struggle in Kashmir started in 1989. India has ever since been answering Kashmiri resentment with bullets and suppression. It is but natural for Muslims all over the world to react to the plight of Kashmiris, more so when there is provision for jihad in Islam. Personally, many Kashmiris may not like the intervention of mercenaries but we have no choice. People generally believe that these mercenaries are there for liberating them from their oppressors. The security forces may tell you that the local people are against mercenaries. This is not true. See the recent attack on Army headquarters. Do you think the foreign mujahideenhave done it on their own? They must have been helped by local people.
But leaders like you have always asked Pakistan to keep mercenaries away from Kashmir.
Nothing is in our hands until the Indian government treats Kashmiris humanely. They have to give up the bullet-for-bullet policy and volunteer for a dialogue with Kashmiris as they are doing in the Northeast. Only this will enable us to prevail upon outsiders to keep off Kashmir. Till then, just as we have no choice in getting out of the clutches of the Indian armed forces, we have no role in either inviting or throwing out the foreigners.
But what strikes me most is that I can't express this to anyone outside the relative anonymity of the Internet. The conversation has been so flattened in this country by the wartime atmosphere that I feel like I can't express a nuanced opinion without being labeled a jingo on one side or a traitor on another.Maybe you are old enough to remember a time (not that far back in the time, 20-25 years more or less) in which the political discussions appeared to be far less shouted, less emotional, more reasoned, far less polarized. Surely arguments could get very heated, but I don't remember hearing so many ad hominems, unsubstantiated insinuations and pointless arguments, such as "is Obama really american?" which don't serve any purpose but in a smear campaign context.
This event ranks slightly below your favorite team winning the superbowl or what have you.
"Yesterday was a testament to the military’s dedication in relentlessly hunting down an enemy through many years of war. And we thank our president, we thank President Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory."posted by ericb at 10:41 AM on May 3, 2011
"The special operations forces grabbed personal computers, thumb drives and electronic equipment during the lightning raid that killed bin Laden, officials told POLITICO.posted by ericb at 10:47 AM on May 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
'They cleaned it out,' one official said. 'Can you imagine what's on Osama bin Laden's hard drive?'"*
The SEALs won't confirm they carried out the attack, but their current chief, Rear Adm. Edward Winters of the Naval Special Warfare Command in California, sent an email congratulating his forces and cautioning them to keep their mouths shut.posted by ericb at 10:58 AM on May 3, 2011
'Today we should all be proud. That handful of courageous men, of strong will and character, have changed the course of history,' he wrote, adding, 'Be extremely careful about operational security ... The fight is not over.'
... 'These guys were excited for the mission, they had been practicing for months. ... They will be honored and revered,' Greitens said of the group that carried out the mission. As for the man who fired the shot that killed him: 'He's a hero in my mind, and I think for all Americans.'"*
• From the perspectives of both research and practice, educingFrom Educing Information - Interrogation: Science and Art - Foundations for the Future (.pdf), produced by the National Defense Intelligence College
information is most productively viewed as a dynamic and reciprocal
process rather than as a discrete event, task, or series of face-to-face
encounters.
• U.S. personnel have used a limited number of interrogation
techniques over the past half-century, but virtually none of them — or
their underlying assumptions — are based on scientifi c research or have
even been subjected to scientifi c or systematic inquiry or evaluation.
• The potential mechanisms and effects of using coercive
techniques or torture for gaining accurate, useful information from
an uncooperative source are much more complex than is commonly
assumed. There is little or no research to indicate whether such techniques
succeed in the manner and contexts in which they are applied. Anecdotal
accounts and opinions based on personal experiences are mixed, but the
preponderance of reports seems to weigh against their effectiveness.
• The accuracy of educed information can be compromised by
the manner in which it is obtained. The effects of many common stress
and duress techniques are known to impair various aspects of a person’s
cognitive functioning, including those functions necessary to retrieve
and produce accurate, useful information.
• Psychological theory and some (indirectly) related research
suggest that coercion or pressure can actually increase a source’s
resistance and determination not to comply. Although pain is commonly
assumed to facilitate compliance, there is no available scientifi c or
systematic research to suggest that coercion can, will, or has provided
accurate useful information from otherwise uncooperative sources.
"The BBC, quoting a Pakistani intelligence official, reported Tuesday that U.S. commandos also may have taken one of bin Laden's sons with them. U.S. officials have not confirmed that report."posted by ericb at 12:48 PM on May 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
"RIPPING IT UP: When late on Sunday night The New York Times tore up one front page and crashed an entirely new one about Osama Bin Laden’s death, it was only the third time in the last 43 years the paper literally stopped the presses.
The Times printed 350,000 copies of a non-Bin Laden paper — which included a story with the headline, “Another Side of Tilapia, the Ideal Farm Fish” — before it dumped that edition and got the news of President Barack Obama’s late night announcement in a new edition, according to an internal memo. Seventy percent of the newspapers the Times wound up printing for Monday had the bin Laden news. The Times printed an additional 165,000 copies of the paper on Monday, as well.
Rashard Mendenhall has created a stir with comments made on his official Twitter page regarding Osama bin Laden's death.posted by gman at 3:29 PM on May 3, 2011
The Pittsburgh Steelers running back on Monday tweeted: "What kind of person celebrates death? It's amazing how people can HATE a man they have never even heard speak. We've only heard one side..."
Mendenhall didn't hold back, even making a reference to the Sept. 11 attacks.
"We'll never know what really happened. I just have a hard time believing a plane could take a skyscraper down demolition style."
"To the best of our knowledge, based on a look, none of it came as a result of harsh interrogation practices," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee in a wide-ranging press conference.posted by darkstar at 3:58 PM on May 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Moreover, Feinstein added, nothing about the sequence of events that culminated in Sunday's raid vindicates the Bush-era techniques, nor their use of black sites -- secret prisons, operated by the CIA.
"Absolutely not, I do not," Feinstein said. "I happen to know a good deal about how those interrogations were conducted, and in my view nothing justifies the kind of procedures that were used."
posted by delmoi at 5:00 PM on May 3, 2011Maybe you are old enough to remember a time (not that far back in the time, 20-25 years more or less) in which the political discussions appeared to be far less shouted, less emotional, more reasoned, far less polarized.
In the early years of the republic our politicians shot each other. By the 1850's they were only beating each other with sticks on the floor of the senate. So in some respects mere name-calling is actually progress.
Yeah. The mid-20th century was kind of anomalous. You had WWII and you also had the emergence of the TV Networks that basically meant that debate was very, very constrained to who could get on television. Now everyone has a voice. And what do they want to do? Scream at eachother, mostly.Huh. I'm guessing that they [9/11 victim family members] are, to a person, okay with OBL being dead. But no, I haven't talked to them all personally.Some probably don't think it matters one way or the other being truthers and all, why would they care? The reality is no group is going to be homogenous.And there's the rub. Are you nicer and more open with the "standard" interrogator once you've spent time with the asshole? Remember that when KSM was captured and subsequently questioned, the only thing that came out of his mouth was a demand for a lawyer.Well, there's no way to prove that or even test for it. It's nothing more then masturbatory fantasy and a way to say maybe it's theoretically possible that torture helped, but we have no way of knowing. No different then potentially imagining torture might work on it's own (except we know it doesn't)I know that there may be thousands of lives in the balance, and I also know that certain operations may have been accelerated because of his capture. The longer he holds out, the less useful any tactical information becomes.See what I mean? Masturbatory fantasy. Just imagining stuff and beating off to it isn't an argument.
I'm faced with a decision. Do I wait (and hope) for him to willingly disclose information, or do I try to "break" him by employing a technique that's been used on our own military and will not cause any lasting physical harm?What was the alternative to burial at sea, given that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia refused to allow burial, and that Islamic tradition only gives you 24 hours? Armed, forced burial in Pakistan? Giving his body to the Taliban? Bury him in the US?Afghanistan?
Joe in Australia: Now that you know that bin Laden was not armed does it change your position in any way?Maybe Joe's position would change if Osama had been taken out in a "targeted" airstrike along with a few dozen Gazan civilians.
The conflicting reports, oddly enough, increase my faith that they're mostly trying to tell us the truth. If it were a lie, it would be neatly packaged, with no loose ends.Yeah, and if it was a lie how would the details keep changing? What would they be changing them to match?
Joe in Australia: Don't you think it was stupid to kill someone who was allegedly at the heart of a massive terror network, when you could interrogate him instead?would it make a difference if the guy were a blind quadriplegic?
"he and other officials reiterated that this was a violent scene, that there was heavy fire from others in the house, and that the soldiers did not know whether the occupants were wearing suicide belts or other explosives."Seriously, if he was the USA's worst enemy then wouldn't capturing bin Laden have been the most significant intelligence coup ever? Surely it would have been worth almost any cost.
The President stated he ordered capture or kill. There was a fire fight. Bin Laden was killed.
"(31 miles) north of the Pakistani capital of Islamabad" (CNN)Both the reports have an accurate number, with surrounding text (north, northeast) that hints at what the number represents.
"a mere 31 miles northeast of Islamabad" (The News, Pakistan)
"(35 miles) north of Islamabad" (Bloomberg)Why not just say "less than 100,000 miles" and be absolutely sure to be not-wrong?
"less than 35 miles from Islamabad" (AP in DailyNews Los Angeles)
"Abbottabad, a military garrison town 38 miles from the capital Islamabad" (Tehran Times)
"in Abbottabad, about 40 miles from Islamabad" (Chicago Tribune)
"less than 50 miles from the capital Islamabad" (Yorkshire Post)
"some 60 miles from the capital of Islamabad" (AP in Lake County News-Sun)
"about 75 miles north of Islamabad" (David Ignatius, "a columnist for The Washington Post")And then there is the "fuck it, we are going with driving time, who can dispute that?":
"less than 100 miles from the capital, Islamabad" (Foreign Policy)
"Abbottabad, an hour’s drive from the capital Islamabad" (Daily Express, UK)The point I was trying to make was not that this distance is some critical aspect of the story and that news organizations are guilty of terrible journalism for not having reported the exact same number (though I am fully guilty of not having articulated it clearly).
I had never realized how much more massive our mountains are than anywhere else in the world until I started visiting the "impressive mountains" of various other parts of the world. And this is despite knowing, on paper, that the Himalayas are much higher. It just hadn't registered, until people started telling me that what looked to me like a hill was Mt Rainier, for example.I know! Minus this whole nonsense, Abbottabad seems like a great place to be; virtuallyreal's (the guy who live-tweeted the entire operation unknowingly) coffee-shop a great way to relax etc.
Osama bin Laden’s youngest daughter saw US special forces storm the family’s hideout and shoot her father dead, Pakistani security sources have claimed.... The girl who watched as bin Laden was shot in the head and chest was said to be 12 or 13 years old.... One survivor, possibly one of bin Laden’s sons, was captured by the Americans and taken away with the special forces in a helicopter.posted by Joe in Australia at 5:39 AM on May 4, 2011
Like, say the life of a single Navy SEAL? Because that's what you are asking for.They could have simply bombed the compound from the air if they'd wanted too. The whole point of a military is that people put their lives on the line to achieve objectives. If we didn't want to kill any soldiers, we just wouldn't have wars at all.
While reports suggest that the information KSM provided on the courier came weeks or months after he was subjected to EITs, Rodriguez says al Libbi’s tips came just one week after he was subjected to the harsh treatment.
Former Bush officials say that the use of enhanced interrogation techniques is misunderstood. “The main thing that people misunderstand about the program is it was intended to encourage compliance,” says John McLaughlin, deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency during the period in which waterboarding was used. “It wasn’t set out to torture people. It was never conceived of as a torture program.”posted by BobbyVan at 6:19 AM on May 4, 2011
After the month-long torment, he was never waterboarded again.So that's 5 weeks, right?
Those computers they took from his house were a pretty big deal, and I bet it's easier to get info from them than from OBL himself.<dick_cheney>Huh? Computers don't care if you waterboard them.</dick_cheney>
Pakistan’s military and intelligence service takes risks that others would not dare take because Pakistan’s generals believe that their nuclear deterrent keeps them safe from regime change of the sort under way in Libya, and because they have discovered over the years that the rest of the world sees them as too big to fail. Unfortunately, they probably are correct in their analysis; some countries, like some investment banks, do pose systemic risks so great that they are too big to fail, and Pakistan is currently the A.I.G. of nation-states.Here are a handful of my observations:
JIM LEHRER: Now, there were a lot of rehearsals. These SEAL teams -- this SEAL team went through several rehearsals before doing this, right?posted by BobbyVan at 9:30 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
LEON PANETTA: Yes. You know, Jim, I think the thing that gave me a degree of confidence for all the risks and uncertainties that were involved in this mission, the thing that gave me the greatest sense of confidence was the fact that these teams conduct these kinds of operations two and three times a night in Afghanistan. They've got tremendous experience with how to do this and do it well. And so, you know, they moved in on the same basis moving against this compound that they do almost every night in Afghanistan. And I think that gave us all some sense of confidence that they knew exactly what they had to do and what problems they would face in the mission.
As a human being, Bin Laden may have deserved compassion and even forgiveness, the Dalai Lama said in answer to a question about the assassination of the Al Qaeda leader. But, he said, "Forgiveness doesn't mean forget what happened. … If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures."posted by BobbyVan at 10:03 AM on May 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
My take is that there's a limit to extending compassion when it means putting yourself at risk.Sure, but I have no problem with the idea that "there are limits to when it is appropriate to extend forgiveness". I also have no problem with the idea that "there are no limits to when it is appropriate to extend forgiveness".
As a human being, Bin Laden may have deserved compassion and even forgiveness, the Dalai Lama said in answer to a question about the assassination of the Al Qaeda leader. But, he said, "Forgiveness doesn't mean forget what happened. … If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures.""
In October 1998, the Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960s from the U.S. government through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and also trained a resistance movement in Colorado (USA).[82]posted by symbioid at 10:38 AM on May 4, 2011
(footnote 82 leads to NYT)
(now, my "of course he said it" was a joke. I don't think he said it because the CIA paid him. But he WAS on the payroll.)
Republican House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers said Wednesday that the Obama administration should not release the gruesome post-mortem images, saying it could complicate the job for American troops overseas. Rogers told CBS News he has seen a post-mortem photo.posted by cashman at 10:43 AM on May 4, 2011
"The risks of release outweigh the benefits," he said. "Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East."
"Imagine how the American people would react if Al Qaida killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet," he continued. "Osama bin Laden is not a trophy - he is dead and let's now focus on continuing the fight until Al Qaida has been eliminated."
-----
Video of the comments will appear on the CBS "Evening News" on Wednesday.
It's also a good code phrase because it doesn't sound like any other wordTeam Six, repeat, did you say "Geronimo" or "Her Domino"?
The entire operation was about capturing and/or killing an enemy of the US (or just killing, depending on what you believe). The idea that the code name equates OBL to a hero is completely nonsensical. Does anyone really think the thought process was "Hey, let's give him a heroic name so he can go out in style?"I think that the argument of those who are taking offense is "they are saying Geronimo was an evil man", not "they are saying Bin Laden was a good man".
The British also realized that they'd stumbled upon this because the Germans used a bad code name. And they wondered how many times *they* had done that -- and thus, the Ministry of Supply came up with the Rainbow Codes. There were several colors -- they rotated by day -- and a large list of nouns. Every time a coded project started, you call up the desk, and they'd look at the Color for the day, and then read the next noun off the list, and cross it off, and there was your code name. So, we had things like Black Arrow, the UK's only satellite launcher, Blue Sky, which entered service as the Fairley Fireflash AAM, and so forth.posted by inigo2 at 11:30 AM on May 4, 2011 [4 favorites]
[Updated at 3:13 p.m. ET] The U.S. Navy SEALs who raided Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan "had the authority to kill (bin Laden) unless he offered to surrender," White House spokesman Jay Carney said Wednesday.posted by cashman at 12:20 PM on May 4, 2011
If bin Laden surrendered, the team was required to accept it if that could happen safely, Carney said. He provided no additional details on what occurred inside the compound when bin Laden was killed.
There was no question that the operation was lawful, Carney told reporters, adding that "consistent with the laws of war, bin Laden's surrender would have been accepted if feasible."
"I think it's entirely appropriate given the circumstances that he was brought to justice the way he was," Carney said.
Sarah Palin thinks it's a bad idea to keep the photos secret.She tweeted that moments after it was announced that the photos would be kept secret. If it had been announced that the photos would be released, what do you think she would have tweeted? That the President was doing the right thing? Or that it's a bad idea to release the photos?
"Other photos, taken hours later at between 5:21 a.m. and 6:43 a.m. show the outside of the trash-strewn compound and the wreckage of the helicopter the United States abandoned. The tail assembly is unusual, and could indicate some kind of previously unknown stealth capability."Yeah, I wonder what sorts of technology were used in this raid ... some of which we may never really know about. For example, the overhead view that was beamed to the Situation Room and CIA. What type of satellites were used and what are their capabilities?
"'The Beast of Kandahar' i.e. the secretive RQ-170 surveillance drone, was said to have filmed the daring raid and transmitted it back to the President in real time."posted by ericb at 1:48 PM on May 4, 2011
"The phones were in addition to 10 hard drives, five computers and more than 100 thumb drives. ... 'They didn’t use land lines or the Internet, but they did use something else, cell phones,' said the official."posted by ericb at 2:20 PM on May 4, 2011
Asked if harsh interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay played a role in obtaining intelligence on bin Laden’s whereabouts, Rumsfeld declares: {...} "It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding."Compare that to his remarks to Hannity:
"I’m told there was some confusion today on some programs…suggesting that I indicated that no one who was waterboarded at Guantanamo provided any information on this. That’s just not true. What I said was no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo by the U.S. military…Three people were waterboarded by the CIA…and then later brought to Guantanamo. In fact, as you point out, the information that came from those individuals was critically important."Rumsfeld is a master of specious reasoning and bureaucratic casuistry, so his trying to have it both ways in this case should not be surprising.
A) Asked if harsh interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay played a role in obtaining intelligence on bin Laden’s whereabouts, Rumsfeld declares: {...} "It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding."posted by BobbyVan at 4:41 PM on May 4, 2011
B) "I’m told there was some confusion today on some programs…suggesting that I indicated that no one who was waterboarded at Guantanamo provided any information on this. That’s just not true. What I said was no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo by the U.S. military…Three people were waterboarded by the CIA…and then later brought to Guantanamo. In fact, as you point out, the information that came from those individuals was critically important."
Officials revise their initial account of the raid on Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan, saying the rules of engagement all but assured the Al Qaeda leader would be killed....Incidentally, I want to give a shout-out to my buddy Empath for collecting my statements on other assassinations. I'll be happy to address any inconsistencies you can find in them, but I should note that some posters here have asked that it be taken to MeMail. Your choice, though.
Bin Laden could have surrendered only "if he did not pose any type of threat whatsoever," White House counter-terrorism chief John Brennan said....
Added a senior congressional aide briefed on the rules of engagement: "He would have had to have been naked for them to allow him to surrender." [...]
CIA Director Leon E. Panetta said in an interview on PBS television Tuesday that he did not believe Bin Laden had a chance to speak before he was shot in the face and killed.
"To be frank, I don't think he had a lot of time to say anything," Panetta said.
"In fact, most of the operation was spent in what the military calls 'exploiting the site,' gathering up the computers, hard drives, cellphones and files that could provide valuable intelligence on al Qaeda operatives and potential operations worldwide.posted by ericb at 5:27 PM on May 4, 2011
The U.S. officials describing the operation said the SEALs carefully gathered up 22 women and children to ensure they were not harmed. Some of the women were put in 'flexi-cuffs,' the plastic straps used to bind someone’s hands at the wrists, and left them for Pakistani security forces to discover.
But despite the fact that only one of those killed was armed, everyone was considered a serious threat, the U.S. officials said."
"For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by-word through the world."
Governor John Winthrop
(1630 on board the Arbella)
I did not know that. Apparently this is standard practice: all photos of Presidential addresses are actually staged re-enactments!As President Obama continued his nine-minute address in front of just one main network camera, the photographers were held outside the room by staff and asked to remain completely silent. Once Obama was off the air, we were escorted in front of that teleprompter and the President then re-enacted the walk-out and first 30 seconds of the statement for us.
Doug Mills, New York Times photojournalist and former Associated Press staffer, says it has been done this wayThe truthiness of US Presidential photo-ops isn't especially important, but I wonder how many other iconic photos are actually staged performances made with the connivance of reporters.always, always … well, as long as I have covered the White House, going back to the Reagan administration. We [still photographers] have never, never, never, ever been allowed to cover a live presidential address to the nation!
CIA Director Leon E. Panetta said in an interview on PBS television Tuesday that he did not believe Bin Laden had a chance to speak before he was shot in the face and killed.All quotes taken from this article.
Yes seriously, I suggest you read the Lord of the Rings. It's a great morality play about the corrupting character of power and lust for control over others.
"Do you like what you doth see...?" said the voluptuous elf-maiden as she provocatively parted the folds of her robe to reveal the rounded, shadowy glories within. Frito's throat was dry, though his head reeled with desire and ale.posted by kirkaracha at 7:16 AM on May 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action. U.S. officials have since said that "Geronimo" was the name of the operation itself and that "Jackpot" was the code word for bin Laden.Also, the expression Hillary Clinton has in the Situation Room photo may have just been her allergies.
"Stolen Identities: The Impact of Racist Stereotypes on Indigenous People," can be seen here at 2:15 p.m. ET."
"The photo shows Clinton with her hand to her mouth in what looks like a gesture of anxiety over the outcome of the operation.posted by cashman at 8:27 AM on May 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Those were 38 of the most intense minutes. I have no idea what any of us were looking at that particular millisecond when the picture was taken," she said on Thursday when asked about the photo during a visit to Rome.
"I am somewhat sheepishly concerned that it was my preventing one of my early spring allergic coughs. So it may have no great meaning whatsoever."
"While reports suggest that the information KSM provided on the courier came weeks or months after he was subjected to EITs, Rodriguez says al-Libbi’s tips came just one week after he was subjected to the harsh treatment."Why not consider the third bucket?
“We expect a wide range of questions around the background of the 9/11 attacks as well as the events that led up to this past weekend’s events,” explained a spokesperson for Discovery Education, which asked the White House to participate in its series of live webinars.The live webinar will start at 1:00 p.m. ET. Teachers and students can register for the free event here.
*Presentation (15 minutes) Ben will provide context and perspective
*Q&A from Students (15 minutes) Students will have the chance to submit questions to be answered live
Discovery Education recommends the event for middle and high school students, most of whom are too young to remember the attacks or events that led to Osama bin Laden’s death.
Due to the sensitive nature of this webinar, we recommend that only middle school and high school classrooms register. The discussion within this webinar may include details and concepts not suitable for all ages.
Report: Abusive tactics used to seek Iraq-al Qaida linkIt was also at this time that Bush commented, "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. {Bin Laden}." (March 13, 2002).
The Bush administration applied relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist.{...}
"There were two reasons why these interrogations were so persistent, and why extreme methods were used," the former senior intelligence official said on condition of anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity.
"The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there."
It was during this period that CIA interrogators waterboarded two alleged top al Qaida detainees repeatedly — Abu Zubaydah at least 83 times in August 2002 and Khalid Sheik Muhammed 183 times in March 2003 — according to a newly released Justice Department document.{...}
A former U.S. Army psychiatrist, Maj. Charles Burney, told Army investigators in 2006 that interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility were under "pressure" to produce evidence of ties between al Qaida and Iraq.
"While we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between al Qaida and Iraq and we were not successful in establishing a link between al Qaida and Iraq," Burney told staff of the Army Inspector General. "The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link . . . there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results."
For now, the most that can be said about the “enhanced interrogation program” is that it may have led to the nom de guerre of the courier, which got the ball rolling. That’s not nothing, and it complicates the operational case against torture. But even that is less than certain, and it hit its limits when trying to ascertain Ahmed’s real name.So it didn't do much, except for maybe uncovering a vital piece of evidence, the nom de guerre, that led to the discovery of the courier's real name, that led to Bin Laden. Any fair minded person must allow for this possibility.
A warfighter searching a building will now be able to hold the Radar Scope up to a wall and detect in seconds whether someone is in the next room. It doesn’t matter if that someone plays possum; just as long as he is breathing, he will make a detectable movement.”
The device is expected to take several years to develop. Ultimately, servicemembers will be able to use it simply by driving or flying by the structure under surveillance, Baranoski said.
"The original plan to place a rappelling team on the roof with a second team dropping into the courtyard was jettisoned when one of the helicopters, its blades clawing at hot, too-thin air, had to put down hard. Both choppers landed in the courtyard, behind one ring of walls with more to go."*posted by ericb at 11:40 AM on May 5, 2011
The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11).
Local consultants aided Khadafy -- Cambridge firm tried to polish his image.posted by ericb at 2:12 PM on May 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
How a US consulting firm used American academics to rehab Muammar Qaddafi’s image.
US Consulting Group Working For Libya Did Not Register As Foreign Agent.
US firm Monitor Group admits mistakes over $3m Gaddafi deal.
Monitor Group and Qaddafi: Still Spinning?
Sources involved in the operation that took down Usama bin Laden told Fox News the terrorist leader acted "scared" and "completely confused" in his final moments, "shoving his wife" at the Navy SEAL who ultimately shot him.posted by BobbyVan at 2:38 PM on May 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
The information helps clarify the conflicting details about what exactly happened toward the end of the 40-minute raid on bin Laden's northern Pakistan compound. Sources who were part of the mission said bin Laden acted in a "cowardly manner" when confronted. Fox News has also learned that while bin Laden was unarmed, he was standing near the door within reach of two weapons -- an AK-47 and a Makarov handgun that are now in U.S. custody. The handgun is a 9mm semi-automatic Russian pistol, standard issue in the Russian military until 1991.
A senior U.S. official also told Fox News that only one of the five people killed in the raid was carrying a weapon and firing. The detail seemed at first to diverge from White House accounts claiming the Navy SEALs encountered resistance throughout the raid and were engaged in a firefight during much of the 40-minute operation. However, the scene was described as chaotic, with U.S. forces encountering barricades and women in the compound screaming and attacking the men.
"As of February 2010, al-Qa'ida was allegedly contemplating conducting an operation against trains at an unspecified location in the United States on the 10th anniversary of September 11, 2001," the document reads, using an alternate spelling for bin Laden's terror group. "As one option, al-Qa'ida was looking into trying to tip a train by tampering with the rails so that the train would fall off the track at either a valley or a bridge. "posted by Ironmouth at 3:01 PM on May 5, 2011
According to former White House counterterrorism advisor and ABC News consultant Richard Clarke, the fact that such proposals were discovered in bin Laden's possession shows how integral he still appeared to be to terror plots.
The evidence appears to confirm that Bin Laden still had a role in approving al Qaeda plots, just he did for the 9/11 terror attack.
The Obama administration had given numerous, conflicting accounts of the raid this week, and it is possible these accounts will be revised yet again.Could you please explain why this would happen if they're lying about the underlying claim that Bin Laden was killed a few days ago? It would seem to me that if they're making that basic claim up, they also would have made up the details of the supposed raid, and stuck to them.
Nobody called him a conspiracy theorist.You are theorizing a conspiracy, are you not? That, at the very least, the President of the United States, plus various high-level members of the administration and military have conspired to perpetrate a significant lie on the world?
Remember "weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" as the reason for invading another country? That was exactly an instance of "the President of the United States, plus various high-level members of the administration and military have conspired to perpetrate a significant lie on the world?"I did not state that what you are theorizing is wrong. I stated that what you are theorizing is a conspiracy.
Obama: OK guys, here's the plan, we're going to say we killed Bin Laden. SEALS raided a bunker and shot him.I just don't see it. What plausible event might have occurred rather than simply "Wait a minute, guys, this doesn't really make sense. Let's say he was unarmed. And didn't use his wife as a human shield"?
Clinton: Sounds good. Let's say he was armed and shot at them first so it doesn't seem like we just executed him.
Panetta: And that he was hiding behind a woman!
Weishaupt: His wife!
Obama: Great ideas, everyone. Let's do this thing.
Obama: (to American people) My fellow Americans, we shot and killed Bin Laden. He was shooting back. He grabbed his wife and used her as a human shield.
Obama: (to cabinet) Wait a minute, guys, this doesn't really make sense. Let's say he was unarmed. And didn't use his wife as a human shield.
Obama: (to American people) Well, he wasn't armed. And didn't use his wife as a human shield.
I just don't see it. What plausible event might have occurred rather than simply "Wait a minute, guys, this doesn't really make sense. Let's say he was unarmed. And didn't use his wife as a human shield"?The best that I personally have been able to come up with, incidentally, is:
"If we keep changing our story about the details of what happened, with no obvious reason for why we would change it in the ways that we do, it will make most people think that the people who are really onto us are actually crazy."I don't really find that particularly believable, though. Can you come up with a better reason?
Pakistan Foreign Office Spokesperson: So, you know, this American Seal came running in Right Arm Over (the carbine) while Osama was crouching at the Second Slip and Osama's daughter was hiding behind a curtain at Silly Point and his wife was at Short Leg. Naturally, his wife charged down the Pitch towards the Seal and was promptly Yorked, even as Osama dived to his right towards Third Man. Another Seal who was covering his coworker from Long Leg misinterpreted the dive for an attempt to steal a Run and instinctively did what any good Seal would do - he ran Osama out with an accurate throw.posted by vidur at 12:42 AM on May 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
Questions?
I'm talking about the claims made by Leon Panetta, the CIA Director. I understand that he was in the Operations Room, so his information is as good as that received by the President himself. How did he imagine that bin Laden was armed and firing at US troops and refusing to surrender? Isn't that an extraordinary error for someone in his position?Have you ever played the children's game "telephone"?
Actual reality: SEALS are fired upon. A bunch of wives and children are present. A wife is killed. Guns are near Bin Laden. A woman goes in front of Bin Laden, and is shot in the leg. Bin Laden is killed.Again, I'm certainly not saying that that's what happened, and it's obviously oversimplified dialog and such. But I find something like that to be plausible. Do you not?
SEAL speaking informally to military higherups anxious for answers on the radio on the helicopter flight back: "We took fire but no casualties. We shot Bin Laden, he's dead. Four others dead including a wife or something. Bin Laden had weapons near him. Woman jumped in front of Bin Laden, we shot her.
Military higherups to higher military higherups, moments later: Bin Laden's dead! Plus a wife and a few others. There was a firefight but no American casualties. Bin Laden himself had weapons. One of the wives was in front of him.
Further up, moments later: Bin Laden's dead in a firefight, he was armed and using one of his wives as a human shield.
Various administration officials, including some unnamed and speaking off the record, to the press, combine to say: Bin Laden is dead! He was hiding behind his wife and firing on Americans.
SEAL is formally debriefed
Debriefers to military higherups: Uh, wait a minute here....
The Obama administration had given numerous, conflicting accounts of the raid this week, and it is possible these accounts will be revised yet again.Could you please explain why this would happen if they're lying about the underlying claim that Bin Laden was killed a few days ago? It would seem to me that if they're making that basic claim up, they also would have made up the details of the supposed raid, and stuck to them.
"The statement published on jihadist web forums said an audiotape would be released of the al-Qaeda leader speaking a week before his death.One of those times I'd love to see Reddit go searching for where this was first posted and by whom.
"The statement published on jihadist web forums said an audiotape would be released of the al-Qaeda leader speaking a week before his death."Oh, that's nothing. The Scientologists will sell you an audiotape of their leader speaking a week after his death.
"12 suspected militants were killed in the assault in the Data Khel region of North Waziristan, one of the seven districts of Pakistan's volatile tribal region bordering Afghanistan.Check out the 60 minutes report on U.S. piloted drones (August, 2009) for anybody who hasn't seen it already.
The drone, an unmanned aircraft, attacked a militant hideout and a vehicle carrying militants."
U.S. officials provided new details on bin Laden’s final moments, saying the al-Qaeda leader was first spotted by U.S. forces in the doorway of his room on the compound’s third floor. Bin Laden then turned and retreated into the room before being shot twice — in the head and in the chest.This might mean that a SEAL entered the room after bin Laden gone back inside, and the SEAL then confronted bin Laden and shot him. I think a more plausible reading is that he was shot in the back of the head. This would explain why the photos of his face are allegedly so gruesome: exit wounds are larger than entrance wounds. Shooting people in the back of the head is generally seen as dishonorable and people would suspect that bin Laden had been executed, so the US didn't want to allow anyone else to see the corpse.
In one video, bin Laden is wearing what a wool cap with a blanket draped around his shoulders.Slow down. Take a deep breath. Edit.
"Osama bin Laden was 'created' by the CIAposted by ericb at 1:54 PM on May 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
He did not receive any direct funding or training from the US during the 1980s. Nor did his followers. The Afghan mujahideen, via Pakistan's ISI intelligence agency, received large amounts of both. Some bled to the Arabs fighting the Soviets but nothing significant."
Hasidic Paper Removes Hillary Clinton From Osama PictureMan, poor Audrey Tomason-- getting no respect from anyone.
Der Tzitung cuts Hillary Clinton out of the iconic picture of government leaders watching the Bin Laden hit.
posted by Anything at 4:57 AM on May 8, 2011According to the document, Libi fled to Peshawar in Pakistan and was living there in 2003 when he was asked to become one of Bin Laden’s messengers. The document says: “In July 2003, detainee received a letter from [Bin Laden's] designated courier, Maulawi Abd al-Khaliq Jan, requesting detainee take on the responsibility of collecting donations, organising travel and distributing funds for families in Pakistan. [Bin Laden] stated detainee would be the official messenger between [Bin Laden] and others in Pakistan. In mid-2003, detainee moved his family to Abbottabad (Pakistan) and worked between Abbottabad and Peshawar.”...
[...]
WikiLeaks released the report last week, prompting speculation that the US, afraid that its planned raid might be preempted, brought forward its attack.
Considering that Wikileaks began releasing the Gitmo Files on April 24th and that we now know that President Obama signed the order to begin this operation on Friday April 29th, to originally be carried out the following day on Saturday, there was just 5 days from the point at which Wikileaks released the pertinent classified intelligence and when the President signed off on the OBL capture/ kill mission. This substantially supports the possibility that the classified intelligence, Bradley Manning is charged with removing from DoD classified databases and then passing to Wikileaks, may very well have caused the White House to step up the operation to get OBL.
In the torrents of commentary that will follow his announced death, many will agree with the puzzling proclamation that analyst Peter Bergen made on CNN last night that this marks the end of the war on terror.So, they don't want to end the war. It then gets into the up is down argument that AQ's strategic thrust is destabilizing the US economy by excessive security costs. The twisted parts is these are the same people responsible for the terrorism boondoggles.
In fact, bin Laden's death does not close this chapter in history.
B’nai Brith Canada reacted with concern after reviewing materials posted on the GlobalResearch.ca web site run by Michel Chossudovsky, a professor of economics at the University of Ottawa, which are rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial.
CANADA'S NUTTIEST PROFESSORS: MICHAEL CHOSSUDOVSKY, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA... As overseer of the anti-U.S., anti-globalization website GlobalResearch.ca, Chossudovsky has manufactured a long list of eyebrow-raising accusations that often read more like wild-eyed conspiracy theories than serious political discourse: the U.S. had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks ("Of course they knew!"); "Washington's New World Order weapons have the ability to trigger climate change"; the U.S. knew in advance about the December 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, but kept it to themselves (apparently so they could ride to the rescue of devastated coastal regions); big banking orchestrates the collapse of national economies...
Should AP win the FOIA request, it doesn't mean the world will automatically see the photographs.So they ask for the stuff, then say they wouldn't necessarily release it to the public? So what, you just want to get it to be able to say neener neener, we've seen it but you can't?
"We would like to obtain images from the raid because we believe they would have significant news value," AP director of media relations Paul Colford told News Photographer magazine today.
"However, we would decide about publishing all or some on the images based on our own editorial standards, which include such factors as tastefulness and whether they could cause harm or danger to others."
SPITZER: So let me ask this very first question. Do you believe that Osama bin Laden was killed just a few days ago by the United States' raid in Abbottabad?
GUL: I believe so. But there are stories. People don't tend to believe this. But I think the third wife of Osama bin Laden has given the version - her version and she says that it was bin Laden, no doubt.
Q: So what makes you think Osama wasn't behind Sept. 11?So one of your sources for doubting the Obama administration is retired chief of ISI, who first agreed it was Bin Laden, then turned around in 20 seconds and said it wasn't, implied it was impossible to believe the Obama administration because of conflicting stories, while ignoring his own, doesn't have a shred of proof, ends the interview by saying he's out of contact with intelligence says and has been for 20 years. And and the Jews 'caused 9/11.
A: From a cave inside a mountain or a peasant's hovel? Let's be serious. Osama inspires countless millions by standing up for Islam against American and Israeli imperialism. He doesn't have the means for such a sophisticated operation.
Q: Why Mossad?
A: Mossad and its American associates are the obvious culprits. Who benefits from the crime? The attacks against the twin towers started at 8:45 a.m. and four flights are diverted from their assigned air space and no air traffic controller sounds the alarm. And no Air Force jets scramble until 10 a.m. That also smacks of a small scale Air Force rebellion, a coup against the Pentagon perhaps? Radars are jammed, transponders fail. No IFF friend or foe identification challenge. In Pakistan, if there is no response to IFF, jets are instantly scrambled and the aircraft is shot down with no further questions asked. This was clearly an inside job. Bush was afraid and rushed to the shelter of a nuclear bunker. He clearly feared a nuclear situation. Who could that have been? Will that also be hushed up in the investigation, like the Warren report after the Kennedy assassination?
Q: At this point, someone might be asking what you've been smoking. What is Israel's interest in such a monstrous plot, which, of course, no one believes except Islamist extremists who concocted this piece of disinformation in the first place, presumably to detract from the real culprits?
A: Jews never agreed to Bush 41 (George H.W. Bush, the 41st president) or 43 (his son George W. Bush, the 43rd president). They made sure Bush senior didn't get a second term. His land-for-peace pressure in Palestine didn't suit Israel. They were also against the young Bush because he was considered too close to oil interests and the Gulf countries. Bush senior and Jim Baker had raised $150 million for Bush junior, much of it from Mideast sources or their American go-betweens. Bush 41 and Baker, as private citizens, had also facilitated the new strategic relationship between Saudi Arabia and Iran. I have this from sources in both countries. So clearly the prospect of a Bush 43 was a potential danger to Israel.
Jews were stunned by the way Bush stole the election in Florida. They had put big money on Al Gore. Israel has given its imperialist guardian parent opportunities to turn disaster into a pretext for imposing an all-encompassing military, political and economic agenda to further the cause of global capitalism. While Colin Powell is cautious and others are reckless and want to make up for their failure to defeat Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War 10 years ago, the global agenda is the same.
Israel knows it has a short shelf-life before it is overwhelmed by demographics. It is a state that was born in terrorism that terrorized Palestinians into the exile of refugee camps, where they have now subsisted in squalid refugee camps, and is now very much afraid of Pakistan's nuclear capability.
Israel has now handed the Bush family the opportunity it has been waiting for to consolidate America's imperial grip on the Gulf and acquire control of the Caspian basin by extending its military presence in Central Asia. Bush conveniently overlooks or is not told the fact that Islamic fundamentalists got their big boost in the modern age as CIA assets in the covert campaign I was also involved with to force the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Bush senior was vice president during that entire campaign. And no sooner did he become president on Jan. 20, 1989, than he summoned an inter-agency intelligence meeting and issued an order, among several others, to clip the wings of ISI (Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence) that had been coordinating the entire operation in Afghanistan. I know this firsthand as I was DGISI at the time (director general, ISI).
"Combat Camera is a low-density, high-demand force enabler composed of highly trained VI professionals prepared to deploy to the most austere operational environments at a moment's notice. Seasoned in the art of acquiring and using still and motion imagery, COMCAM forces provide the Secretary of Defense, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Combatant Commands, Joint Task Forces and Services a directed imagery capability to support operational planning, public affairs, information warfare, mission assessment, legal and countless other requirements during crises, contingencies and exercises around the globe.posted by ericb at 12:06 PM on May 8, 2011
COMCAM forces, in addition to receiving specialized MOS/NEC/AFSC training, also receive combat, weapons, aircraft safety and other special task training to prepare them for deployment and insertion into hostile and remote areas, and are ready to embed and operate with front-line and Special Operations forces."
"Smartphones may soon take the place of helmet cameras, with soldiers placing their phones into a special pocket on the outside of a Kevlar vest, camera facing out.posted by ericb at 12:09 PM on May 8, 2011
... Though the military won’t divulge the precise type of camera used by SEAL commandos, smartphones may eventually take their place. A company called IncaX has developed a software solution that effectively transforms the ubiquitous, off-the-shelf smartphone into a cheap body-worn camera that can stream video live—and the Office of Naval Research is testing it out for use with the SEALs, says Bill Switzer of CopTrax, a firm that markets IncaX technology. Soldiers simply have to mount a smartphone on their chest—in a special pocket on the outside of a Kevlar vest, for instance, with the camera facing out. During combat, commanders can see the location of their troops on a map as a mission proceeds and, with the click of a button, see what any individual soldier is seeing in real time (here’s what the command dashboard looked like during a recent test). The video is also recorded locally and uploaded to a cloud server when bandwidth permits for later review. Thanks to the accelerometers that are nearly ubiquitous in smartphones, the system can even detect movement and g-force that soldiers experience, its makers say."*
• The White House photograph of Obama, Clinton and top security advisors supposedly watching real-time footage of the Navy Seals' onslaught on the Abbottabad compound, their killing of two men and a woman (excuse for the latter killing: the standard "caught in crossfire") and liquidation of OBL himself turns out to have been a phony. BO and friends could have been watching basketball replays. Panetta has admitted the real-time video link stopped working before the Seals got into the compound.It doesn't give a source, a link or anything that gives a hint of proof about the statement and then veers wildly off into conjecture.
Ok, one final, final, really final link, really.nickyskye, you seem to be concerned that people are unjustly tarring you as crazy (for example, you complained that you're sick of "the c phrase" - I presume "conspiracy theory" - and that you've been insulted as being "loony"). If I'm correct that you are concerned about that, then here's some serious advice, take it or leave it:
• The White House photograph of Obama, Clinton and top security advisors supposedly watching real-time footage of the Navy Seals' onslaught on the Abbottabad compound, their killing of two men and a woman (excuse for the latter killing: the standard "caught in crossfire") and liquidation of OBL himself turns out to have been a phony. BO and friends could have been watching basketball replays. Panetta has admitted the real-time video link stopped working before the Seals got into the compound.I am completely unaware of that photo being "a phony," whatever that means exactly. Could you provide a source or link that cites or proves how and why the photo is a phony, please? Seriously.
• Panetta also admits Osama bin Laden was not armed, and that he did not hide behind his young wife's skirt. He conceded that under military rules of engagement Osama should have been taken prisoner, but then added vaguely that he showed some unspecified form of resistance. He probably reached for his walking stick, since he has been ailing from kidney and liver problems. As any black or brown resident in, say, the purview of the Ramparts Division of the LAPD knows full well, reaching for a walking stick or even holding a cell phone can be a death warrant; multiply that likelihood by a factor of 100 if you are the world’s most wanted terrorist in front of a score of heavily armed and homicidal Navy SEALs, no doubt amped up on amphetamine.There isn't a single link to Panetta saying this, followed by conjecture that doesn't have shred of proof to it, implies the US military is just hunting dark skinned people and says the SEALS are "no doubt amped up on emphetamine".
On Monday, the President will meet with the co-chairs of the U.S. and China Strategic and Economic Dialogue, including Secretary of State Clinton, Treasury Secretary Geithner, Chinese Vice Premier Wang Qishan and State Councilor Dai Bingguo.Sure I know the schedule is packed and the job is obviously thousands of previous, current and future problems and situations to fix, apologize for, stop or address, but it's still daunting to know that next up is that trivial issue of immigration.
On Tuesday, the President will travel to the El Paso, Texas area to deliver a speech on fixing the broken immigration system so that it meets America's 21st century economic and security needs. He will then travel to Austin, Texas before returning to Washington, D.C.
On Wednesday, the President will participate in a CBS Town Hall at the Newseum. In the evening, the President and the First Lady will host a celebration of American poetry and prose by welcoming accomplished poets, musicians and artists as well as students from across the country to the White House.
On Thursday, the President will deliver remarks at the National Hispanic Prayer Breakfast.
On Friday, the President will attend meetings at the White House.
Afghan troops kill, wound 25 'foreign fighters' in Nuristan - 5 days ago.
NURISTAN PROVINCE, Afghanistan – 11 hours ago:
Soldiers from 1st and 2nd Commando Kandaks and Special Operations Task Force – East made significant gains in the formerly insurgent-held Konar River Valley, Barg-e Matal district, Nuristan province, during a three-day combined clearing operation . . . the northernmost tip of Nuristan province . . . has historically been a staging area for the large influx of insurgents traveling into the province.. . . Before dawn, May 2, the northernmost teams secured the district center without resistance. . . the combined force took heavy fire . . . With support from air weapons teams, an estimated 18 enemy fighters were killed and multiple weapon caches were discovered. On the third day of the operation, the remaining villages within the valley were cleared . . . air weapons teams engaged a sniper position and insurgent fighting position within a cave, killing an unknown number of insurgents.Gen. Hammad Gul, former head of the ISI, told the Financial Times on May 3 that the ISI knew where he was, but regarded him as "inactive." Writing in the May 5 Guardian (UK), author Tariq Ali says that a "senior" ISI official told him back in 2006 that the spy organization knew where bin Ladin was, but had no intention of arresting him because he was "The goose that laid the golden egg." In short, the hunt for the al-Qaeda leader helped keep the U.S. aid spigot open.*Sighs*
Was the attack on Osama bin Laden truly a CIA-dominated covert action, or was it a mostly military one? The distinction matters because different U.S. legal codes apply to each category. Covert operations fall under Title 50. Military ops, under Title 10. In either case, the killing of the Al Qaeda chief presents legal problems.posted by Joe in Australia at 11:29 PM on May 9, 2011
That’s why the White House has carefully avoided both definitions ....
Nickiskye, Bhutto did say that Osama bin Laden had been killed "years ago" in the interview with David Frost, but it was obviously a mistake. Why do I say that?So when you ignore or forget to include that in your response, it looks...I don't want to be harsh, but it doesn't look good, you know?
Because, when Butto was under house arrest, according to her own account, during a telephone interview with NPR, she mentioned asking the police why they were detaining her instead of searching for bin Laden...
The aim of the invasion was to find Osama bin Laden and other high-ranking Al-Qaeda members to be put on trial, to destroy the organization of Al-Qaeda, and to remove the Taliban regime which supported and gave safe harbor to it. The George W. Bush administration stated that, as policy, it would not distinguish between terrorist organizations and nations or governments that harbored them.To answer you question, Al-Qaeda was still in Afghanistan as was the Taliban so based on the Bush administration's own logic (whether you believe it or not), they had reason's to continue to be that country. Add in the fact that it border Pakistan and you've got a nice staging ground for raids into Pakistan while avoiding invading, which would be a disaster, politically and militarily.
I Omar Ossama Binladin and my brothers the lawful children and heirs of the Ossama Binladin (OBL) have noted wide coverage of the news of the death of our father, but we are not convinced on the available evidence in the absence of dead body, photographs, and video evidence that our natural father is dead. Therefore, with this press statement, we seek such conclusive evidence to believe the stories published in relation to 2 May 2011 operation Geronimo as declared by the President of United States Barrack Hussein Obama in his speech that he authorized the said operation and killing of OBL and later confirmed his death.posted by cashman at 4:46 AM on May 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
If OBL has been killed in that operation as President of United States has claimed then we are just in questioning as per media reports that why an unarmed man was not arrested and tried in a court of law so that truth is revealed to the people of the world. If he has been summarily executed then, we question the propriety of such assassination where not only international law has been blatantly violated but USA has set a very different example whereby right to have a fair trial, and presumption of innocence until proven guilty by a court of law has been sacrificed on which western society is built and is standing when a trial of OBL was possible for any wrongdoing as that of Iraqi President Sadam Hussein and Serbian President Slobodan Miloševic'. We maintain that arbitrary killing is not a solution to political problems and crime's adjudication as Justice must be seen to be done.
It is also unworthy of the special forces to shoot unarmed female family members of Binladen killing a female and that of one of his son.
Most importantly, when it is a common knowledge that OBL's family is residing at one place outside KSA, why they were not contacted to receive his dead body. His sudden and un witnessed burial at sea has deprived the family of performing religious rights of a Muslim man.
Finally, now that the operation is concluded we wish the Government of Pakistan to release and hand over all minors of the family and all the family members are reunited at one place and are repatriated to their country of origin, especially female members of the family to avoid further oppression and we seek international support to that effect.
Without agreeing to the ways of OBL as to how he professed, believed and operated, We Omar Ossama Binladin, and my brothers, the lawful children of the Ossama Binladin (OBL) herewith demand an inquiry under UNO to reach to the accuracy of the facts as stated by United States into the fundamental question as to why our father was not arrested and tried but summarily executed without a court of law. We are putting these questions to the United Nations, OIC, President of United States that a necessary evidence is presented to the family in private and or public to make us believe what they claim, and all the remaining family members are repatriated and united after necessary initial investigation.
In making this statement, we want to remind the world that Omar Ossam Binladin, the fourth-born son of our father, always disagreed with our father regarding any violence and always sent messages to our father, that he must change his ways and that no civilians should be attacked under any circumstances. Despite the difficulty of publicly disagreeing with our father, he never hesitated to condemn any violent attacks made by anyone, and expressed sorrow for the victims of any and all attacks. As he condemned our father, we now condemn the president of the United States for ordering the execution of unarmed men and women.
Failure to answer these questions will force us to go to International forum for justice such as International Criminal Court and International Court of Justice and UN must take notice of the violation of international law and assist us to have answers for which we are lawful in seeking them. A panel of eminent British and international lawyers is being constituted and a necessary action may be taken if no answers are furnished within 30 days of this statement.
A leader of the al Qaeda offshoot that U.S. officials have called the greatest threat to the U.S. vowed in a message posted on Islamist websites Wednesday to take revenge against the U.S. for the death of Osama bin Laden, saying that jihad would only intensify and that Americans would come to "wish for the days of Osama."posted by ericb at 10:09 AM on May 11, 2011
"Do not dismiss this battle so easily, and give your people false hope that if you kill Osama that it is over," promised Nasir al-Wahishi, a leader of the Yemen-based al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP). "What is waiting for you is far greater and more dangerous, and you will then count your regrets, wishing for the days of Osama."
Wahishi said the U.S. made a "big mistake" by killing bin Laden. "For those who celebrated the killing of our sheikh," says the statement, "we tell them: We will see if you celebrate what the sons and students of the sheikh will send you." [more]
1) Before last Sunday’s raid, every intelligence analyst, geopolitical commentator or head of state worth their salt was on record as stating that Osama Bin Laden was already dead, and that he probably died many years ago, from veteran CIA officer Robert Baer, to former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to former FBI head of counterterrorism Dale Watson. In addition, back in 2002 Alex Jones was told directly by two separate high level sources that Bin Laden was already dead and that his death would be announced at the most politically opportune moment. Top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions under five different Presidents, serving as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under the Nixon, Ford and Carter, told the Alex Jones Show last week that Bin Laden died of marfan syndrome shortly after he was visited by CIA physicians at the American Hospital in Dubai in July 2001.veteran CIA officer Robert Baer
"In addition, back in 2002 Alex Jones was told directly by two separate high level sources that Bin Laden was already dead and that his death would be announced at the most politically opportune moment."If two unnamed "high level sources" told Alex Jones back in '02 that Bin Laden was already dead that settles it for me!
But Dr. Hal Dietz, a geneticist at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine who first mapped Marfan mutations, said the theory isn’t any more valid now than it was then.
True, bin Laden had some physical characteristics linked to Marfan syndrome, which affects about 1 in 5,000 people.
“He was quite tall and he had a long, narrow face,” Dietz said.
But bin Laden didn’t have deep-set, downward-slanting eyes of those with Marfan syndrome. He had no skeletal deformities and no evidence of heart problems that might have resulted in an aortic tear or rupture. There seems to have been no sign of the dominant genetic disorder in his children, Dietz said.
In fact, Dietz – who is so familiar with the signs he often spots people with Marfan in public places like restaurants and theme parks – says he wouldn’t have flagged bin Laden as a potential patient at all.
“I think it’s pure speculation with minimal basis in fact,” Dietz said.
With bin Laden, however, it'll likely take more than mere facts to put this rumor -- or any other -- to rest.
U.S. officials say that Osama bin Laden kept a hand-written journal filled with planning ideas and details of operations. The journal was seized in the dramatic US raid.No word whether or not they seized his glitter pens.
Bin Laden has long been known to record his thoughts and had been thought to keep a diary. Bin Laden’s son, in a memoir, has described his father as recording his thoughts and plans when the family lived in Sudan and Afghanistan.
It was not clear how much material was left behind when the Seals evacuated the compound in Abbottabad on May 1, but senior U.S. military officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it could have been a substantial amount.What that reporter meant was "The US has since heard that its assassins who claimed to have scoured the compound actually left a lot of stuff behind. Please can we have it?"
Bin Laden’s words failed to rate highly even in the jihadists’ own patch of cyberspace, which tends to he dominated by techie talk on weapons and tactics. or equally arcane exegesis of musty Islamic texts.Our Strange Dance with Pakistan:
I told you that we burn schools because they’re teaching Christianity, but actually, most of the Taliban don’t like this burning of schools or destroying of roads and bridges, because the Taliban, too, could use them. Those acts were being done under ISI orders. They don’t want progress in Afghanistan.posted by Sticherbeast at 10:56 PM on May 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Although tribal terrain offers many opportunities for resistance, there is another reason why Osama bin Laden has not yet been intercepted -- or that the Taliban find such easy sanctuary once again. If the Taliban are eliminated, or if their poster-boy Osama bin Laden is caught, the international cries for restoration of democracy will only deepen."And via the AP (via Boston.com) on October 2, 2007:
Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan's former prime minister, said in an interview that she would cooperate with the American military in targeting Osama bin Laden.And in a September 19, 2007 interview with NPR:
Bhutto told BBC America, in an interview scheduled to air last night, that she would accept US assistance in the event they discovered the whereabouts of the Al Qaeda leader, but that she would prefer to have the Pakistani military execute the strike.
"If there is overwhelming evidence, I would hope that I would be able to take Osama bin Laden myself without depending on the Americans," Bhutto last week during the taping. "But if I couldn't do it, of course we are fighting this war together and would seek their cooperation in eliminating him."
"The people who are hiding Osama bin Laden know it would be very difficult for them to do that if democracy brings the Pakistan People's Party back to government under my leadership," she said.And in a CNN interview on November 3, 2007, Bhutto is asked explicitly about whether Musharraf knows where bin Laden is and she clearly does not disabuse the interviewer of the notion that bin Laden is still alive:
WHITFIELD: So, Ms. Bhutto, am I hearing you correctly in saying that you almost directly blame General Pervez Musharraf for helping to produce these safe havens in Pakistan, where there is terrorist activity, where, perhaps, in these safe havens someone like the Osama bin Laden, the most-wanted terrorist in the world, just might be taking refuge?So I think we can all safely set aside Bhutto as offering any reasonable shadow of a doubt as to whether bin Laden was still alive.
BHUTTO: I wouldn't like to go so far as to blame General Musharraf directly, but I would certainly say that many people in his administration and his security apparatus responsible for internal security make me feel very uneasy. And I believe that tribal areas of Pakistan could not have become safe havens without collusion of some of the elements in the present administration. And this is why I believe that regime change is very important.
I had hoped --
WHITFIELD: Do you Musharraf -- I'm sorry. Do you think General Musharraf knows where Osama bin Laden is?
BHUTTO: I don't think General Musharraf personally knows where Osama bin Laden is, but I do feel that people around him are many who are associated with the earlier military dictatorship of the '80s. That military dictatorship formed the Iran Mujahideen. The Mujahideen subsequently became Al Qaeda and Taliban. So I believe that break has not been made between the supporters and sympathizers of the Mujahideen and thereby, of the Taliban and Al Qaeda that is necessary. We need an administration and a security apparatus that does not have people with links to the Iran Jihad of the '80s.
Huh, you think that maybe there was an Al Qaida connected person in the compound who passed on the news?Benazir was not the only one who expressed the idea that OBL was dead, or likely dead. So did veteran CIA officer Robert Baer,and former FBI head of counterterrorism Dale Watson.
Paul Joseph Watson's thoughts on why he thinks it unlikely OBL is dead in this raid.
If you put the phrase "The statement's authenticity could not be independently confirmed, but it was posted on websites where the group traditionally puts out its messages." there are many links to check out from around the world.
Mr Holder told the BBC the operation was a "kill or capture mission" and that Bin Laden's surrender would have been accepted if offered.posted by Joe in Australia at 4:57 AM on May 12, 2011
[...]
"I actually think that the dotting of the i's and the crossing of the t's is what separates the United States, the United Kingdom, our allies, from those who we are fighting," he said.
"Though President Obama decided not to release them, to the public, members of Congress are now viewing 15 photos of Osama bin Laden’s corpse. Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK), who claimed to be the first lawmaker to view them, said the photos are 'pretty gruesome' and prove that 'he is gone. He’s history.'"*posted by ericb at 8:06 AM on May 12, 2011
The special rapporteurs are correct that apart from “exceptional cases … the norm should be that terrorists be dealt with as criminals, through legal processes of arrest, trial and judicially decided punishment.” I don’t think it’s difficult to argue that Osama bin Laden constituted an exceptional case, but I also share their concern that such exceptional cases not “set precedents” that would supplant the norm of legal processes in most cases.My own thoughts are similar, but the question remains about what are "exceptional cases." Anwar Awlaki, the US citizen supposedly hiding in Yemen, is probably an exceptional case. But how far down the chain do exceptional cases go? Is Moammar Gadhafi one? Was David Koresh one?
"In a Washington Post op-ed today, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) writes that the evidence used to find Osama Bin Laden was not produced by torture. The senator also said that the waterboarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammed yielded 'false and misleading information.'"*posted by ericb at 8:08 AM on May 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
"Former Colin Powell Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson told MSNBC’s Ed Schultz on Wednesday night that President George W. Bush wasn’t interested in bringing Osama bin Laden to justice. 'I don’t think they really wanted to get bin Laden,' Wilkerson said."*posted by ericb at 8:11 AM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
who would then come back 20 years later to murder 3,000 of our citizens
"More than just sating his own curiosity, King said he thinks that seeing the photos will give him some credibility in talking about bin Laden’s killing. 'I’ll be able to say, "yes, bin Laden was killed, I saw it" and I think it will give some – again just in public appearances and talking to people if the debate does arise in the next year or so is he really dead.'"posted by ericb at 8:40 AM on May 12, 2011
"I happen to know a good deal about how those interrogations were conducted, and in my view, nothing justifies the kind of procedures that were used," Feinstein said.McCain from his discussions with CIA Director Leon Panetta:
She said torture did not elicit the information that ultimately led to bin Laden. Instead, she attributed the operation's success to painstaking work by a rejuvenated intelligence apparatus that has moved beyond its failures during the Iraq war.
I asked CIA Director Leon Panetta for the facts, and he told me the following: The trail to bin Laden did not begin with a disclosure from Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times. The first mention of Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti — the nickname of the al-Qaeda courier who ultimately led us to bin Laden — as well as a description of him as an important member of al-Qaeda, came from a detainee held in another country, who we believe was not tortured. None of the three detainees who were waterboarded provided Abu Ahmed’s real name, his whereabouts or an accurate description of his role in al-Qaeda.Rumsfeld actually went on record saying waterboarding was NEVER done, then he went on Fox News to do a complete flip-flop a day later, so he can probably be dismissed as having any credibility one way or the other. But Feinstein and McCain are not so easily dismissed.
In fact, the use of “enhanced interrogation techniques” on Khalid Sheik Mohammed produced false and misleading information. He specifically told his interrogators that Abu Ahmed had moved to Peshawar, got married and ceased his role as an al-Qaeda facilitator — none of which was true. According to the staff of the Senate intelligence committee, the best intelligence gained from a CIA detainee — information describing Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti’s real role in al-Qaeda and his true relationship to bin Laden — was obtained through standard, noncoercive means.
Would appreciate a thought on the idea that the US militarily invaded Islamic countries, for oil, and the modern, from 1980's onwards, jihadists are retaliating for this domination, except for the Bosnian war in which case the jihadists went into to protect fellow Muslims from 'ethnic cleansing' by the Serbs. Has the US incited these jihadists only because we invaded their countries?
A new picture emerged Thursday of what really happened the night the Navy SEALs swooped in on Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan.posted by ericb at 7:36 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
CBS News national security correspondent David Martin reports the 40 minutes it took to kill bin Laden and scoop his archives into garbage bags were all recorded by tiny helmet cameras worn by each of the 25 SEALs.
Officials reviewing those videos are still reconstructing a more accurate version of what happened. We now know that the only firefight took place in the guest house, where one of bin Laden's couriers opened fire and was quickly gunned down. No one in the main building got off a shot or was even armed, although there were weapons nearby.
The SEALs first saw bin Laden when he came out on the third floor landing. They fired, but missed. He retreated to his bedroom, and the first SEAL through the door grabbed bin Laden's daughters and pulled them aside.
When the second SEAL entered, bin Laden's wife rushed forward at him -- or perhaps was pushed by bin Laden. The SEAL shoved her aside and shot bin Laden in the chest. A third seal shot him in the head. [more ...]
Three of Osama bin Laden's wives have been interrogated by U.S. intelligence officers under the supervision of Pakistani's intelligence service, according to sources in both governments.posted by ericb at 7:39 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
The women -- who were all interviewed together -- were "hostile" toward the Americans, according to a senior Pakistani government official with direct knowledge of the post-bin Laden investigation and two senior U.S. officials with direct knowledge of the matter. The eldest of the three wives spoke for the group.
Members of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence were in the room along with the U.S. intelligence officers, the officials said. The Americans had wanted to question the wives separately to figure out inconsistencies in their stories.
All three officials said that the interrogation didn't yield much new information, while adding that it was early in the process. [more ...]
Michele Bachmann said Thursday that she got a glimpse of the reportedly graphic photos of Osama bin Laden's corpse, and that she's "convinced we got our man."posted by ericb at 8:04 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Bachmann made the comments on her Twitter feed, after becoming one of several congressional members to be shown the photos by the CIA.
"Today at the CIA, I saw the bin Laden photos. I am convinced we got our man. I also support a release of the DNA match to the public," she said.
India has become the state that we tried to create in Pakistan. It is a rising economic star, militarily powerful and democratic, and it shares American interests. Pakistan, however, is one of the most anti-American countries in the world, and a covert sponsor of terrorism. Politically and economically, it verges on being a failed state. And, despite Pakistani avowals to the contrary, America’s worst enemy, Osama bin Laden, had been hiding there for years—in strikingly comfortable circumstances—before U.S. commandos finally tracked him down and killed him, on May 2nd.
American aid is hardly the only factor that led these two countries to such disparate outcomes. But, at this pivotal moment, it would be a mistake not to examine the degree to which U.S. dollars have undermined our strategic relationship with Pakistan—and created monstrous contradictions within Pakistan itself.
"Global investors say President Barack Obama has done a better job of fighting terrorism than former President George W. Bush, while U.S. investors rate the ex- president higher."posted by ericb at 8:18 AM on May 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
Perhaps there was no way to bring him back alive – I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in that dark house trying to make that snap decision. But if the execution was ordered in advance, then I say we should be told that now, and we can like it or not like it.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:31 PM on May 13, 2011
Perhaps there was no way to bring him back alive – I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in that dark house trying to make that snap decision. But if the execution was ordered in advance, then I say we should be told that now, and we can like it or not like it.I agree and would like the Obama administration to be straight about this and I think to a large degree they have. Various members, includin CIA Director Leon Paentta and White House counterterrorism advisor John O. Brennan have said the SEAL team was authorized to kill, but could capture if possible. Yet the statements also make clear that they didn't believe capture was a strong possibility. There's a tone, IMO, of "Kill him if he so much as twitches." I'm ok with that and believe that such a sentiment is understandable concerning OBL from a sheer practical point. Who knew if had a suicide vest of what and I can't place the SEALs for not giving him the slightest chance to pull something.
The Bush administration put these techniques in place only after rigorous analysis by the Justice Department, which concluded that they were lawful. Regrettably, that same administration gave them a name—"enhanced interrogation techniques"—so absurdly antiseptic as to imply that it must conceal something unlawful.posted by unSane at 5:27 AM on May 14, 2011
Seal Team 6for toys, games, movies, snow globes and Christmas stockings
SEAL TEAM 6Goods and Services
IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: Toys, games and playthings; gymnastic and sporting articles (except clothing); hand-held units for playing electronic games other than those adapted for use with an external display screen or monitor; Christmas stockings; Christmas tree ornaments and decorations; snow globes[...]
(APPLICANT) Disney Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 500 South Buena Vista Street Burbank CALIFORNIA 91521posted by Joe in Australia at 11:27 PM on May 15, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:02 AM on May 17, 2011 [2 favorites]Defeating the Confederate army brought the end of slavery and a wave of standardization--in railroad gauges and shoe sizes, for example--that paved the way for a truly national economy. Vanquishing Adolf Hitler ended the Great Depression and ushered in a period of booming prosperity and hegemony. Even the massive military escalation that marked the Cold War standoff against Joseph Stalin and his Russian successors produced landmark technological breakthroughs that revolutionized the economy.
Perhaps the biggest economic silver lining from our bin Laden spending, if there is one, is the accelerated development of unmanned aircraft. That's our $3 trillion windfall, so far: Predator drones.
As three of the SEALs reached the top of the steps on the third floor, they saw bin Laden standing at the end of the hall. The Americans recognized him instantly, the officials said.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:05 AM on May 17, 2011
Bin Laden also saw them, dimly outlined in the dark house, and ducked into his room.
The three SEALs assumed he was going for a weapon, and one by one they rushed after him through the door, one official described.
Two women were in front of bin Laden, yelling and trying to protect him, two officials said. The first SEAL grabbed the two women and shoved them away, fearing they might be wearing suicide bomb vests, they said.
The SEAL behind him opened fire at bin Laden, putting one bullet in his chest, and one in his head.
It was over in a matter of seconds.
Back at the White House Situation Room, word was relayed that bin Laden had been found, signaled by the code word “Geronimo.” That was not bin Laden’s code name, but rather a representation of the letter “G.” Each step of the mission was labeled alphabetically, and “Geronimo” meant that the raiders had reached step “G,” the killing or capture of bin Laden, two officials said.
Good afternoon. On my orders, the United States military has begun strikes against al Qaeda terrorist training camps and military installations of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. These carefully targeted actions are designed to disrupt the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations, and to attack the military capability of the Taliban regime.
...
More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and specific demands: Close terrorist training camps; hand over leaders of the al Qaeda network; and return all foreign nationals, including American citizens, unjustly detained in your country. None of these demands were met. And now the Taliban will pay a price. By destroying camps and disrupting communications, we will make it more difficult for the terror network to train new recruits and coordinate their evil plans....
Gordon Duff, senior editor at Veterans Today, offers a sweeping view of America’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the WikiLeaks saga, and the events of 9/11. Duff, a Marine veteran of Viet Nam, claims intelligence sources worldwide, especially in Pakistan. He asserts that most events called “terrorism” are false flag events, that Israel’s Mossad is in control of much of the disinformation in circulation today, that bin Laden has been dead for years, that all top officials of the Federal Reserve are dual citizens with “Israeli passports in their dresser drawers next to the marijuana”, that North Korea’s submarines and the nuke they tested came from Israel, and that the WikiLeaks leaks were orchestrated in Tel Aviv. He also has a very different view of Pakistan’s ISI and the insurgents lumped together as the “Taliban”.*posted by ericb at 8:52 AM on May 19, 2011
The AP had asked that the Defense Department quickly consider its request under a legal provision known as expedited processing, which dramatically shortens the amount of time the government takes in such cases. Without expedited processing, requests for sensitive materials can be delayed for months and even years. The AP submitted its request to the Pentagon less than one day after bin Laden's death.The AP has appealed, but I think that's about all we'll hear about this for a long long time.
The Defense Department last week refused AP's request for a speedy review. It said the AP failed to demonstrate an urgent or compelling need to review the records or show that the information has a particular value that would be lost if not provided in an expedited manner.
In the future, a designated news photographer — using a heavily muffled camera — will be present in the room to record televised presidential addresses like President Obama’s announcement on May 1 that Osama bin Laden had been killed.
...
Controversy followed the Bin Laden announcement after it became widely understood that Mr. Obama had returned to the lectern to pose for news photographers — who were barred from the real speech — as if he were making the announcement. The New York Times used a photo of this re-enactment on Page 1, as did other newspapers. (“Whose Eye? What Beholder?” Lens, May 25.)
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posted by estuardo at 7:44 PM on May 1, 2011