Torturing Republicans with the facts.
May 12, 2011 6:49 PM Subscribe
Now, this incarnation of John McCain, where were you during the last presidential election? Why'd you have to push right and leave the centre open to Obama? If you had been this awesome, although you still might have lost, you would have forced him left.
Oh well. At least you're doing good now, I can't fault that.
posted by Lemurrhea at 6:53 PM on May 12, 2011 [11 favorites]
Oh well. At least you're doing good now, I can't fault that.
posted by Lemurrhea at 6:53 PM on May 12, 2011 [11 favorites]
Now that's the McCain we (sort of) used to love.
No take-backs on the Palin thing, though. Sorry dude.
posted by contessa at 6:53 PM on May 12, 2011 [22 favorites]
No take-backs on the Palin thing, though. Sorry dude.
posted by contessa at 6:53 PM on May 12, 2011 [22 favorites]
This is good news for McCain!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:57 PM on May 12, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 6:57 PM on May 12, 2011 [7 favorites]
Michael Mukasey — whose recent op ed claiming torture led to Bin Laden has been widely cited by the right
Yeah? How about all that intel Bush & Co. tossed into the bin that said a(nother) terrorist attack on the WTC was imminent?
posted by P.o.B. at 6:59 PM on May 12, 2011
Yeah? How about all that intel Bush & Co. tossed into the bin that said a(nother) terrorist attack on the WTC was imminent?
posted by P.o.B. at 6:59 PM on May 12, 2011
One good thing about Trump is that he doesn't mess around with euphemisms and has no problem calling a spade a spade:
posted by Rhaomi at 7:00 PM on May 12, 2011
We're so politically correct, nobody wants to say the word, but isn't another word for that [enhanced interrogation] torture?Of course, he immediately follows up by saying torture is a great thing we should use more often, so maybe, uh, not-so-good after all.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:00 PM on May 12, 2011
Great speech. I found the line about how "we will someday be involved in a more conventional war against a state and not a terrorist movement or insurgency and be careful not to set a standard that another country could use to justify the mistreatment of our soldiers" particularly interesting. I wonder if the fact we are in a war against a vague, secretive collection of groups allows us to believe we are in a war against no one, and thus able to treat these people like they do not exist with "mock execution" (as McCain put it) like water boarding.
posted by Corduroy at 7:07 PM on May 12, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Corduroy at 7:07 PM on May 12, 2011 [6 favorites]
Is it too much to hope that keen advocates of torture would cool their fervor if they witnessed it up close, never mind first hand as he did?
posted by SueDenim at 7:11 PM on May 12, 2011
posted by SueDenim at 7:11 PM on May 12, 2011
Let's see him come out against the Patriot Act extensions, otherwise he may as well be torturing Americans.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:13 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:13 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
You know, I too was coming in here to make a quick crack about somebody slipping him the integrity pills again, but reading the comments above, thinking that some people out there may be again deceived by him, burns me up. Who you are when the chips are down is who you are, and John McCain has show us who he truly is: a man whose tenacity and will to survive are surpassed only by his ambition and conviction of his own greatness. Put to the test, the first two qualities ennobled him; the later disgraced him. His complicity with the Bush administration on torture, given his history, is beneath contempt.
posted by Diablevert at 7:16 PM on May 12, 2011 [85 favorites]
posted by Diablevert at 7:16 PM on May 12, 2011 [85 favorites]
Seriously. If you fall for this McCain having integrity again thing, you're a fool. This is just a character he plays.
posted by callmejay at 7:18 PM on May 12, 2011 [18 favorites]
posted by callmejay at 7:18 PM on May 12, 2011 [18 favorites]
It's gonna take a lot more than this to make up for that flaming bag of dog poop he laid on America's doorstep when he picked Palin ... but he can keep trying if he wants to.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:21 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 7:21 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
SueDenim: "Is it too much to hope that keen advocates of torture would cool their fervor if they witnessed it up close, never mind first hand as he did?"
That's what happened to Mancow Muller.
(Hannity is still a charity-stiffing wuss, though.)
posted by Rhaomi at 7:23 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
That's what happened to Mancow Muller.
(Hannity is still a charity-stiffing wuss, though.)
posted by Rhaomi at 7:23 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
You know, I too was coming in here to make a quick crack about somebody slipping him the integrity pills again, but reading the comments above, thinking that some people out there may be again deceived by him, burns me up. Who you are when the chips are down is who you are, and John McCain has show us who he truly is: a man whose tenacity and will to survive are surpassed only by his ambition and conviction of his own greatness. Put to the test, the first two qualities ennobled him; the later disgraced him. His complicity with the Bush administration on torture, given his history, is beneath contempt.
Well said.
John McCain is not some good, or decent, or honest, or honorable, or ethical man, who just sometimes trusts some bad elements against his better judgment. He is an incompetent, rage-filled, self-absorbed piece of shit, and has been since he was crashing Navy planes on daddy's dime. His occasional pretenses of integrity are solely to get people to think about "the old McCain", as though the shitbird that came out in 2008 and 2010 wasn't who he really was.
posted by kafziel at 7:23 PM on May 12, 2011 [23 favorites]
Well said.
John McCain is not some good, or decent, or honest, or honorable, or ethical man, who just sometimes trusts some bad elements against his better judgment. He is an incompetent, rage-filled, self-absorbed piece of shit, and has been since he was crashing Navy planes on daddy's dime. His occasional pretenses of integrity are solely to get people to think about "the old McCain", as though the shitbird that came out in 2008 and 2010 wasn't who he really was.
posted by kafziel at 7:23 PM on May 12, 2011 [23 favorites]
We could replace nuclear energy, if we could just harness this hero's flip-flops.
He timing isn't even capricious -- newly reelected his goes "left" of the positions on which he campaigned for re-election.
I'm glad he's rebuking the terrible lie that torture led us to bin Laden's lair, but John McCain is still a prisoner of the Capitol Hill Hilton, torturing logic and eviscerating any idea of the rule of law, when he writes:
Grow some pot to alleviate your wife's pain over her cancer, go to prison; undermine America's values on the world stage, and well, you're our buddy, so no consequences.
That's the Inside the Beltway elitism that shows you John McCain had been captured, brainwashed, and turned -- not by the Vietnamese, but by institutional DC corruption.
(And why can't the Post or its Plum Line blog link to McCain's oped?? The Washington Post still doesn't understand the web. To find McCain's oped, I had to leave the Post's Plum Line page, go to Google, then Politico to get a link back to the Washington Post. Now that's web-mastery.)
posted by orthogonality at 7:25 PM on May 12, 2011 [8 favorites]
He timing isn't even capricious -- newly reelected his goes "left" of the positions on which he campaigned for re-election.
I'm glad he's rebuking the terrible lie that torture led us to bin Laden's lair, but John McCain is still a prisoner of the Capitol Hill Hilton, torturing logic and eviscerating any idea of the rule of law, when he writes:
waterboarding, which is a mock execution and thus an exquisite form of torture. As such, [it and other forms of torture] are prohibited by American laws and values, and I oppose themand then follows two paragraphs later with
I don’t believe anyone should be prosecuted for having used these techniques, and I agree that the administration should state definitively that they won’t be. I am one of the authors of the Military Commissions Act, and we wrote into the legislation that no one who used or approved the use of these interrogation techniques before its enactment should be prosecuted. I don’t think it is helpful or wise to revisit that policy.So it was torture, it's against our values, it's illegal, but hey, it was Washington insiders who allowed it, so no one should, you know, be punished.
Grow some pot to alleviate your wife's pain over her cancer, go to prison; undermine America's values on the world stage, and well, you're our buddy, so no consequences.
That's the Inside the Beltway elitism that shows you John McCain had been captured, brainwashed, and turned -- not by the Vietnamese, but by institutional DC corruption.
(And why can't the Post or its Plum Line blog link to McCain's oped?? The Washington Post still doesn't understand the web. To find McCain's oped, I had to leave the Post's Plum Line page, go to Google, then Politico to get a link back to the Washington Post. Now that's web-mastery.)
posted by orthogonality at 7:25 PM on May 12, 2011 [8 favorites]
Great speech. I found the line about how "we will someday be involved in a more conventional war against a state and not a terrorist movement or insurgency and be careful not to set a standard that another country could use to justify the mistreatment of our soldiers" particularly interesting.
Seriously.
Also known as the Golden Rule. So many of the Bush (and Obama's continuation of them) War on Terror policies fail this simple test. Would we want another country doing that to one of our citizens or similar? What would we say if another country was engaging in this practice?
posted by formless at 7:25 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Seriously.
Also known as the Golden Rule. So many of the Bush (and Obama's continuation of them) War on Terror policies fail this simple test. Would we want another country doing that to one of our citizens or similar? What would we say if another country was engaging in this practice?
posted by formless at 7:25 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh, John McCain. I wish I knew how to quit you.
posted by crunchland at 7:27 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by crunchland at 7:27 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
McCain and Colin Powell should NEVER be forgiven. I hold these two more responsible for the Iraq war than Bush and Cheney. The both of them were the only two people in America who had the power and respect to stop the march to war yet they did NOTHING but fall in line behind obvious sociopaths. McCain/Powell will go down in my book as the greatest cowards in American history.
posted by any major dude at 7:28 PM on May 12, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by any major dude at 7:28 PM on May 12, 2011 [10 favorites]
This is good news for McCain!
You mean, "THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!"
posted by orthogonality at 7:28 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
You mean, "THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!"
posted by orthogonality at 7:28 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Today the Senate voted 51-45 to adopt the Conference Committee's intelligence authorization bill. Included in that bill is section 327, a Feinstein Amendment that would require all agencies of the U.S. government, not simply the military -- to limit interrogation techniques to those identified in Army Field Manual 2-22.3. ... Only five Republicans voted for the bill--Senators Collins, Hagel, Lugar, Smith and Snowe. Conspicuously absent from this list is, of course, Senator and Republican presidential nominee John McCain...
posted by Trurl at 7:30 PM on May 12, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Trurl at 7:30 PM on May 12, 2011 [6 favorites]
McCain and Colin Powell should NEVER be forgiven.
Yeah, it was Powell's speech at the UN that swayed me. Had Powell done the honorable thing, things might have been very different. But Powell's career, after all, started with his coverup of the US war crimes at My Lai.
posted by orthogonality at 7:34 PM on May 12, 2011 [10 favorites]
Yeah, it was Powell's speech at the UN that swayed me. Had Powell done the honorable thing, things might have been very different. But Powell's career, after all, started with his coverup of the US war crimes at My Lai.
posted by orthogonality at 7:34 PM on May 12, 2011 [10 favorites]
Whether McCain has real integrity or if its a guise doesn't really matter with regards to the fact that he's saying what needs to be said, here.
posted by neuromodulator at 7:35 PM on May 12, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by neuromodulator at 7:35 PM on May 12, 2011 [6 favorites]
Even if taken as a sincere critique of torture on McCain's part, it smacks of hindsight in 20-20. Certainly he waited long enough - any soft criticism of U.S. interrogation strategy delivered now is unlikely to repair past injuries. Cynically, I guess you could look at this as the sign that it's OK now for hawkish supporters of The War on Terror to appear superficially concerned about the condition of prisoners. There will probably be some half-hearted 'investigations' and we can all get the national catharsis we need to reassure ourselves we've had a Serious National Dialog about the human consequences of war, and then move on with business as usual before the next election cycle.
posted by gyges at 7:38 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by gyges at 7:38 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
what needs to be said
I wish I could agree.
I don't think it makes any difference whether torture is shown to "work" or "not work". That the debate is even being framed in those terms means we've lost.
posted by Trurl at 7:51 PM on May 12, 2011 [10 favorites]
I wish I could agree.
I don't think it makes any difference whether torture is shown to "work" or "not work". That the debate is even being framed in those terms means we've lost.
posted by Trurl at 7:51 PM on May 12, 2011 [10 favorites]
You know, I voted for McCain in the 2000 Virginia Republican primary against Bush when my mom was "push-polled" over the phone about McCain's supposed interracial baby while my sister was pregnant with an actual interracial baby, my nephew, who is growing up to be an awesome guy, and I feel pretty darn good about that.
posted by peeedro at 7:56 PM on May 12, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 7:56 PM on May 12, 2011 [5 favorites]
Torture victim opposes torture. News at 11.
It is news. Because it means he flipflopped again.
And it's film at 11.
posted by darksasami at 7:56 PM on May 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
It is news. Because it means he flipflopped again.
And it's film at 11.
posted by darksasami at 7:56 PM on May 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
John McCain is most certainly a character with a dark side, But in this case, I'm quite sure that he is the only republican (or democrat) who is countering this cesspool of shit coming out of the mouths of the Bush administration who are arrogantly, once again, trying to justify with lies one of the darkest episodes in American history. Sure, McCain has some very personal experience with torture but that gives him a unique view and perhaps unique courage to counter the Bush administration bullshit. Beyond reporting Leon Panetta's clear denouncing of any role of torture in tracking bin Laden, McCain also makes clear that torture is counter to American law and morality. In my eyes. McCain's stature has just gone up a notch.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:01 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 8:01 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Good news: I truly believe John McCain means what he says about torture.
Bad news: I was waterboarded until I admitted as much.
posted by bengalsfan1 at 8:03 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Bad news: I was waterboarded until I admitted as much.
posted by bengalsfan1 at 8:03 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe the 2008 campaign madness is finally fading and we can have the old McCain back.
The McCain that will say anything if he thinks it'll get him elected.
McCain sees that the torture argument isn't getting traction, and Obama is doing better in the polls.
This is the only reason this lying fuckface is saying this now. The polls say that Obama is getting credit for saying that torture didn't help and GOP candidates are losing credit for saying that it does.
Integrity? Bullshit. It's the exact same pandering that McCain always does. When the winds blow left, he moves to the center, when they blow right, he follows right along.
posted by eriko at 8:24 PM on May 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
The McCain that will say anything if he thinks it'll get him elected.
McCain sees that the torture argument isn't getting traction, and Obama is doing better in the polls.
This is the only reason this lying fuckface is saying this now. The polls say that Obama is getting credit for saying that torture didn't help and GOP candidates are losing credit for saying that it does.
Integrity? Bullshit. It's the exact same pandering that McCain always does. When the winds blow left, he moves to the center, when they blow right, he follows right along.
posted by eriko at 8:24 PM on May 12, 2011 [3 favorites]
The McCain that will say anything if he thinks it'll get him elected.
What does this have to do with getting McCain elected?. McCain is 74 and just won another term in the Senate last year. He will not be running for President ever again and it's doubt full he'll seek re-election in 6 years when he's 80.
posted by gyc at 8:29 PM on May 12, 2011
What does this have to do with getting McCain elected?. McCain is 74 and just won another term in the Senate last year. He will not be running for President ever again and it's doubt full he'll seek re-election in 6 years when he's 80.
posted by gyc at 8:29 PM on May 12, 2011
I don't think it makes any difference whether torture is shown to "work" or "not work". That the debate is even being framed in those terms means we've lost.
I get what you're saying, but I think any counter-torture argument is welcome at this stage, whether or not it's the way I feel the argument should be framed. Yes, there's a danger that allowing poor framing could backfire (and that's not insignificant), but I'd rather accept any counter-torture argument out there and worry about the rest later, if you know what I mean.
also I'm sorry for using the wrong form of "it's" in my previous post
posted by neuromodulator at 8:32 PM on May 12, 2011
I get what you're saying, but I think any counter-torture argument is welcome at this stage, whether or not it's the way I feel the argument should be framed. Yes, there's a danger that allowing poor framing could backfire (and that's not insignificant), but I'd rather accept any counter-torture argument out there and worry about the rest later, if you know what I mean.
also I'm sorry for using the wrong form of "it's" in my previous post
posted by neuromodulator at 8:32 PM on May 12, 2011
McCain has always been to me a really pathetic figure (I first typed "tragic," but that ennobles his utter lack of spine way too much...). He'll say anything, he'll do anything, no matter how ridiculous or far-fetched ("Hello, Juneau? Can you put me through to the Governor's lean-to, please, I have a bit of a proposition for her!") in pursuit of... well, whatever he decided his goal was when he woke up that morning. So what, he takes up a cause that some of us feel strongly about. That doesn't make him anything more that what he REALLY was when he woke up this morning - a delusional opportunist with a spine of Jell-O who appears to have a "personal stake" in this because he says he was held as a POW in Hanoi... And that helps... how? Because Republicans are going to listen to him? Why would they start doing that now?!
(Yes, I believe McCain was probably held as a POW in Hanoi. But he's altered his "war stories" and covered up the facts of his career often enough, I'm just gonna leave it at, he says he was and leave the doubt implied.)
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 8:33 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
(Yes, I believe McCain was probably held as a POW in Hanoi. But he's altered his "war stories" and covered up the facts of his career often enough, I'm just gonna leave it at, he says he was and leave the doubt implied.)
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 8:33 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
I never liked McCain, but there's a tragic element to him. He wouldn't play ball in 2000, and he suffered through what Bush did to him in South Carolina. By 2008, he was finally ready to play the game of the Bush Republicans, but by then Bush's people had utterly used up the effectiveness of their lines of attack.
McCain's campaign rightly took a lot of flack for saying people were not "real" Americans, or Virginians or whatever. That sort of mudslinging turned off independents. But that's not even McCain's fault- that exact same angle of attack worked like a charm in 2002 and 2004, and the press lapped it up. But McCain could never learn how to un-adopt those bitter lessons he learned after 2000. It's like by the time he finally got dressed for prom, it was over.
If you had been this awesome, although you still might have lost, you would have forced [Obama] left.
If he somehow did force Obama left, it would have been a tactical masterstroke because that might have let McCain win.
I know Metafilter will never forgive Obama and all, but don't let the 2008 election results throw you. Without the economic collapse just weeks before the election, that 7 point margin of victory probably comes down to 2 or 3. And that's with McCain running an incompetent campaign.
No matter how much you want it, the country isn't suddenly going to move left by having a parade of 49 state losses by principled liberals.
posted by spaltavian at 8:38 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
McCain's campaign rightly took a lot of flack for saying people were not "real" Americans, or Virginians or whatever. That sort of mudslinging turned off independents. But that's not even McCain's fault- that exact same angle of attack worked like a charm in 2002 and 2004, and the press lapped it up. But McCain could never learn how to un-adopt those bitter lessons he learned after 2000. It's like by the time he finally got dressed for prom, it was over.
If you had been this awesome, although you still might have lost, you would have forced [Obama] left.
If he somehow did force Obama left, it would have been a tactical masterstroke because that might have let McCain win.
I know Metafilter will never forgive Obama and all, but don't let the 2008 election results throw you. Without the economic collapse just weeks before the election, that 7 point margin of victory probably comes down to 2 or 3. And that's with McCain running an incompetent campaign.
No matter how much you want it, the country isn't suddenly going to move left by having a parade of 49 state losses by principled liberals.
posted by spaltavian at 8:38 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
I hear he's a Panamanian.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:43 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:43 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's like by the time he finally got dressed for prom, it was over.
He picked the wrong date, that's for sure.
posted by Trurl at 8:44 PM on May 12, 2011 [5 favorites]
He picked the wrong date, that's for sure.
posted by Trurl at 8:44 PM on May 12, 2011 [5 favorites]
I have said it before and I will say it again with an amendment: With every passing day, John McCain manages to disgrace himself, his military service and his country more and more.
posted by KingEdRa at 8:48 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by KingEdRa at 8:48 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
I did not know you could sell your soul, be unspeakably vile, and then later on just grab it back and be all decent and brave again. How about that.
posted by LarryC at 8:52 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by LarryC at 8:52 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
He is an incompetent, rage-filled, self-absorbed piece of shit, and has been since he was crashing Navy planes on daddy's dime.
Our dime, actually.
posted by perspicio at 8:58 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Our dime, actually.
posted by perspicio at 8:58 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Recipe for John McCain's "Spine:"
2-1/2 cups boiling water (Do not add cold water.)
2 pkg. (8-serving size each) JELL-O Gelatin, any flavor
STIR boiling water into dry gelatin mix in large bowl at least 3 min. until completely dissolved. Pour into 13x9-inch pan.
REFRIGERATE at least 3 hours or until firm.
DIP bottom of pan in warm water 15 sec. Cut into spine-like shape using political cookie cutter, being careful not to cut all the way through the bullshit to the truth.
posted by Floydd at 8:59 PM on May 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
2-1/2 cups boiling water (Do not add cold water.)
2 pkg. (8-serving size each) JELL-O Gelatin, any flavor
STIR boiling water into dry gelatin mix in large bowl at least 3 min. until completely dissolved. Pour into 13x9-inch pan.
REFRIGERATE at least 3 hours or until firm.
DIP bottom of pan in warm water 15 sec. Cut into spine-like shape using political cookie cutter, being careful not to cut all the way through the bullshit to the truth.
posted by Floydd at 8:59 PM on May 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
Oh hey I have a new high water mark for : Most Nakedly Cynical Thing I've Ever Seen.
posted by The Whelk at 9:04 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 9:04 PM on May 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
McCain is 74 and just won another term in the Senate last year.
How did he win that election last year? Or do you remember?
The man is a perfect fit for Mark Tawin's insult: "You take the lies out of him and he'll shrink to the size of your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
posted by blucevalo at 9:13 PM on May 12, 2011 [8 favorites]
How did he win that election last year? Or do you remember?
The man is a perfect fit for Mark Tawin's insult: "You take the lies out of him and he'll shrink to the size of your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
posted by blucevalo at 9:13 PM on May 12, 2011 [8 favorites]
Uh oh. That Washington Post news article has some really careful wording in it, leading to some possibly disturbing conclusions right beneath the surface:
"The first mention of the name Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, as well as a description of him as an important member of Al-Qaeda, came from a detainee held in another country. The United States did not conduct this detainee’s interrogation, nor did we render him to that country for the purpose of interrogation. We did not learn Abu Ahmed’s real name or alias as a result of waterboarding or any ‘enhanced interrogation technique’ used on a detainee in U.S. custody. "
Reading between the lines, it looks like the other country engaged in torture? I'm reading that from these phrases:
The United States did not conduct this detainee’s interrogation
Thereby implying there was interrogation? It conveniently leaves out the type of interrogation. You would think if they're completely disavowing the use of torture, they'd mention that too.
We did not learn Abu Ahmed’s real name or alias as a result of waterboarding or any ‘enhanced interrogation technique’ used on a detainee in U.S. custody.
Why add that last qualifier unless there was torture?
I haven't been keeping up on the neo-conservative torture media circuit, are any of them claiming that torture by another country may have helped us obtain bin Laden?
posted by formless at 9:35 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
"The first mention of the name Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, as well as a description of him as an important member of Al-Qaeda, came from a detainee held in another country. The United States did not conduct this detainee’s interrogation, nor did we render him to that country for the purpose of interrogation. We did not learn Abu Ahmed’s real name or alias as a result of waterboarding or any ‘enhanced interrogation technique’ used on a detainee in U.S. custody. "
Reading between the lines, it looks like the other country engaged in torture? I'm reading that from these phrases:
The United States did not conduct this detainee’s interrogation
Thereby implying there was interrogation? It conveniently leaves out the type of interrogation. You would think if they're completely disavowing the use of torture, they'd mention that too.
We did not learn Abu Ahmed’s real name or alias as a result of waterboarding or any ‘enhanced interrogation technique’ used on a detainee in U.S. custody.
Why add that last qualifier unless there was torture?
I haven't been keeping up on the neo-conservative torture media circuit, are any of them claiming that torture by another country may have helped us obtain bin Laden?
posted by formless at 9:35 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
FFS, this lizard foisted Palin on us, and for that alone, he should be thrown in the Gulf with a pineapple and sneakers, nothing else.
posted by dbiedny at 9:41 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by dbiedny at 9:41 PM on May 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Just before the 2008 election, I made the comment excerpted below. I guess McCain's less depressed now; I don't know that anything else about him has changed. You can read the full version here.
A voice that tells him he's not just a guy who crashed more times than he flew, not just a Captain who never made Admiral like his dad and Granddad, but worse, a coward who failed -- repeatedly failed, whether it involved lies about his daughter or lies about torture -- to stand up for what he knew was right against what he knew was immoral and un-American.
posted by orthogonality at 9:44 PM on May 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
I mean, of course John McCain is depressed. At one time, he belived in things. In Straight Talk, in standing up to his own party when he thought it was wrong, that Jerry Falwell and James Dobsons were power-hungry hypocrites, that one could be honorable and a politician.The guy is still looking for that last hurrah, or at least to be noticed. His (probably last) campaign over, he still wants a "legacy", the approbation of the public audience, the roar of the crowd, something to drown out the insistent voice in his head, a voice that gets louder with each passing day.
[. . . .]
And then in '08, when after years of striving and, latterly, years of compromising his integrity and swallowing whatever he was told to swallow -- even acquiescing to the United States government performing tortures John McCain had suffered at the hands of the Vietnamese Communists -- he finally gets to run for President. Finally triumphs after primary after primary where his own party complains he's too liberal, too angry, too "temperamental" to trust with the red Button.
Finally triumphs even though the idiot he supported in '04 wouldn't support him until all other primary contenders had fallen by the wayside. Finally triumphs, but has so little money he has to find a cynical loophole around the very campaign finance reforms he once championed. Finally triumps even though he has to disparage the very immigration reform bill he authored.
Finally gets the nomination triumphs by cutting off piece after piece of himself, littering the campaign trail with his abandoned beliefs, his former ideals, the very skin and shards of his integrity.
[. . . .]
And so abandoning his last ideal -- that he should pick a running mate who is best for America, who actually could pick up the reins if John McCain were once more in a crisis shot down like he was that day in Vietnam --, John McCain nods his head and stiffles his anger and does as he's told. Does as he's told by handlers and fixers and con-men who never put on the uniform, who had other priorities when the country needed them, who certainly got nowhere close to a a tiger cage in the Hanoi Hilton.
[. . . .]
He's given up almost everything he ever believed in (except his hope of winning a replay of a war he, and we, lost 33 years ago). His former friends have left him and have no respect for him. His closest advisors are the merry gang that shivved him and shat on him from 2000 until last month. His ideals abandoned, his integrity in tatters, all McCain the Presidential candidate can do is hope to win by excoriating all that McCain the Maverick stood for.
Of course he's depressed. He's an empty shell of a man, his ideals and integrity and his guts and soul all willingly ripped out in the hope that, at long last, those will finally be the last sacrifices he needs offer up, to win his last hurrah.
A voice that tells him he's not just a guy who crashed more times than he flew, not just a Captain who never made Admiral like his dad and Granddad, but worse, a coward who failed -- repeatedly failed, whether it involved lies about his daughter or lies about torture -- to stand up for what he knew was right against what he knew was immoral and un-American.
posted by orthogonality at 9:44 PM on May 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
Our dime, actually.
McCain destroyed five Navy planes through his own incompetence. One of these - pointedly not the fifth one - started a fire on a ship that killed 140 US servicemen. Were his father not the admiral in charge of Navy operations in the Vietnam theatre, he would not have gotten that many chances.
posted by kafziel at 9:46 PM on May 12, 2011
McCain destroyed five Navy planes through his own incompetence. One of these - pointedly not the fifth one - started a fire on a ship that killed 140 US servicemen. Were his father not the admiral in charge of Navy operations in the Vietnam theatre, he would not have gotten that many chances.
posted by kafziel at 9:46 PM on May 12, 2011
It's too laaaaate to 'pologize. It's to laaaate.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 10:03 PM on May 12, 2011
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 10:03 PM on May 12, 2011
McCain destroyed five Navy planes through his own incompetence. One of these - pointedly not the fifth one - started a fire on a ship that killed 140 US servicemen. Were his father not the admiral in charge of Navy operations in the Vietnam theatre, he would not have gotten that many chances.
There's absolutely no evidence of that besides rumors spread by some kooky ultra-right wing sources.
posted by gyc at 10:14 PM on May 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
There's absolutely no evidence of that besides rumors spread by some kooky ultra-right wing sources.
posted by gyc at 10:14 PM on May 12, 2011 [4 favorites]
McCain destroyed five Navy planes through his own incompetence. One of these - pointedly not the fifth one - started a fire on a ship that killed 140 US servicemen.
I call shenanigans. This kind of distortion was wrong when conservatives did it do Obama, and still wrong now.
posted by teraflop at 10:15 PM on May 12, 2011 [6 favorites]
I call shenanigans. This kind of distortion was wrong when conservatives did it do Obama, and still wrong now.
posted by teraflop at 10:15 PM on May 12, 2011 [6 favorites]
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Palin is a Casio digital watch that, on a good day, will blink 88:88 while a pitch-warbled alarm blurts intermittently.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:21 PM on May 12, 2011 [20 favorites]
Palin is a Casio digital watch that, on a good day, will blink 88:88 while a pitch-warbled alarm blurts intermittently.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:21 PM on May 12, 2011 [20 favorites]
Too fucking little too fucking late.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:40 PM on May 12, 2011
posted by From Bklyn at 11:40 PM on May 12, 2011
Well, I guess that this is less about McCain taking his integrity pills again (come on, guys, he's a reasonably successful politician: one doesn't stay in Congress for that long without a suitably flexible set of principles), than about him having some first-hand experience of "enhanced interrogation" (and the corresponding scars) that the public advocates of torture so badly lack. As Christopher Hitchens at least had the guts to find out for himself, waterboarding is a lot less fun for the waterboardee than for the waterboarder.
posted by Skeptic at 2:03 AM on May 13, 2011
posted by Skeptic at 2:03 AM on May 13, 2011
It's John McCain. The next time he has to run for office he'll be all for waterboarding again.
posted by tommasz at 5:15 AM on May 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 5:15 AM on May 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
What a load of partisan bullshit some of these comments are. What he says is right, give him credit for that.
I think he's been pretty consistent on torture as a bad thing, and that waterboarding is torture.
However, he could have done better in fighting this awful chapter in the US's history.
posted by gjc at 5:47 AM on May 13, 2011
I think he's been pretty consistent on torture as a bad thing, and that waterboarding is torture.
However, he could have done better in fighting this awful chapter in the US's history.
posted by gjc at 5:47 AM on May 13, 2011
What a load of partisan bullshit some of these comments are. What he says is right, give him credit for that.
The positive comments are about what he said. The negative comments are about who he has revealed himself to be.
It's entirely fallacious to equate holding a person's actual, revealed character as more important than any pretty words he might utter with partisanship.
posted by perspicio at 5:56 AM on May 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
The positive comments are about what he said. The negative comments are about who he has revealed himself to be.
It's entirely fallacious to equate holding a person's actual, revealed character as more important than any pretty words he might utter with partisanship.
posted by perspicio at 5:56 AM on May 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
McCain was the right guy, at the right time, to call for a stop to the Bush administration's torture policy with a reasonable chance of success. He could have gone down in history as a hero, the guy who got America to calm the fuck down and act like a grown-up in the face of a crisis, his own presidential ambitions be damned. Instead we got... well, we all know. It's literally like a classic Greek tragedy, minus only the chorus warning that his ambition will be the end of him.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 6:42 AM on May 13, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by LastOfHisKind at 6:42 AM on May 13, 2011 [4 favorites]
Just because he looks like someone's grandpa and occasional manages to say something not as incendiary as crazypants Bauchmann doesn't really let McCain off the hook. Here is a decent Rolling Stone article from back int he day
posted by edgeways at 7:04 AM on May 13, 2011
posted by edgeways at 7:04 AM on May 13, 2011
What a load of partisan bullshit some of these comments are. What he says is right, give him credit for that.
No, give him credit for being an opportunistic bastard. I'll give him that.
posted by blucevalo at 7:11 AM on May 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
No, give him credit for being an opportunistic bastard. I'll give him that.
posted by blucevalo at 7:11 AM on May 13, 2011 [3 favorites]
John McCain is not some good, or decent, or honest, or honorable, or ethical man, who just sometimes trusts some bad elements against his better judgment.
John McCain is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:55 AM on May 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
McCain is never going to win back the respect of the people here, and nor should he. He made it clear that he'd say anything to get what he wanted, and that shouldn't ever be forgotten.
But, this particular message is a fracture in the normally unbroken wall that is the Republican talking points, and as a bonus, it's coming from their last presidential candidate. I don't care what McCain has to say, but I like the idea that the right wing base does, and what he's saying is something that flies in the face of what has been the hard and fast party line for nearly a decade.
If he can convert a few people away from the torture-is-useful-and-therefore-acceptable stance, I'll take that as a positive thing.
posted by quin at 8:26 AM on May 13, 2011 [4 favorites]
But, this particular message is a fracture in the normally unbroken wall that is the Republican talking points, and as a bonus, it's coming from their last presidential candidate. I don't care what McCain has to say, but I like the idea that the right wing base does, and what he's saying is something that flies in the face of what has been the hard and fast party line for nearly a decade.
If he can convert a few people away from the torture-is-useful-and-therefore-acceptable stance, I'll take that as a positive thing.
posted by quin at 8:26 AM on May 13, 2011 [4 favorites]
If the discussion is more about whether this statement successfully makes McCain look good than about whether he's right, then the torturers have won.
posted by straight at 9:09 AM on May 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 9:09 AM on May 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
quin, that's right. I am saddened that McCain squandered his credibility over the last few years, but at least he is voicing the truth at the moment.
posted by Xoebe at 9:17 AM on May 13, 2011
posted by Xoebe at 9:17 AM on May 13, 2011
(Yes, I believe McCain was probably held as a POW in Hanoi. But he's altered his "war stories" and covered up the facts of his career often enough, I'm just gonna leave it at, he says he was and leave the doubt implied.)
Really? I mean, come on, I think there is plenty of evidence even from the actual time that he was imprisoned which makes this as equally a ridiculous statement as anything the "birthers" ever had to say about Obama.
posted by CharlieSue at 10:37 AM on May 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
Really? I mean, come on, I think there is plenty of evidence even from the actual time that he was imprisoned which makes this as equally a ridiculous statement as anything the "birthers" ever had to say about Obama.
posted by CharlieSue at 10:37 AM on May 13, 2011 [2 favorites]
McCain has shown, repeatedly, that he is not very strong under pressure. Weird, because he seemed so strong as a POW/survivor. Tough race, cave in to Bush.
But he wants to be better than he is, and he sees some of the truth and is sometime willing to speak it, even though it's unpopular, and that puts him well above most of the deluded, bloody-minded Republican Congressional group.
posted by theora55 at 10:41 AM on May 13, 2011
But he wants to be better than he is, and he sees some of the truth and is sometime willing to speak it, even though it's unpopular, and that puts him well above most of the deluded, bloody-minded Republican Congressional group.
posted by theora55 at 10:41 AM on May 13, 2011
Lord protect us from a weak man with aspirations who wants to be better then he is, in a position of high authority. He will cave, he will back slide, will throw under the bus, say anything to attain and maintain his authority. Then at times he may mumble the truth. And that is almost worse then some deluded asshole in the same position, because that weak man knows the truth, he knows things he has said and done to be wrong, and only done so in the pursuit of power and status. But that weak man is weak and so in the end will cause more harm then good, despite his intentions. Hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.
posted by edgeways at 12:51 PM on May 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by edgeways at 12:51 PM on May 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
Santorum Says McCain (Who Was Tortured) Doesn't Understand How Torture Works
posted by homunculus at 11:30 AM on May 17, 2011
posted by homunculus at 11:30 AM on May 17, 2011
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