Skip

Another heavy thinker weighs in!
September 15, 2001 3:39 PM   Subscribe

Another heavy thinker weighs in! Next up: Mr. Ed.
posted by prodigal (56 comments total)

 
I'm no flag waver, but I'm getting pretty damn sick of all the politically correct , apologist mamby pamby give peace a chance claptrap being distributed by our pampered celebrities.
posted by glenwood at 3:50 PM on September 15, 2001


Right. Because an unending legacy of violence is preferable to peace. Please remember that recent history presaged the current calamity. And current events presage future calamites, if we bother to consider them.
posted by donkeyschlong at 3:54 PM on September 15, 2001


I'm with donkey.

I wonder if we can get Russia to not attend the Salt Lake City Olympics in protest for us invading Afganistan. That would be so poetic...
posted by Ptrin at 4:07 PM on September 15, 2001


so donkey, I guess we should have let the Nazi's take over Europe, because any violence we perpetrated would only result in more violence? Please. The fact is these people want to kill us. All of us. Because we don't share their religious beliefs. It's the oldest "cause" in the world and I for one have no guilty feelings related to defending myself against it.

Regardless of how you feel about the current situation, my post was meant to ridicule the notion of celebrities as leaders. Most of these people are ridiculously pampered high-school dropouts. I don't know what's more idiotic, the fact that these people feel qualified to influence thousands or millions of people, or that those same people actually take their cues from such mental giants.
posted by prodigal at 4:08 PM on September 15, 2001


I'm with you, Glenboy.

Everybody wants peace, but this is war. You try to fight a terrorist with a peace vigil and that just means a whole bunch of people holding candles waiting around for the sky to fall.

Again, we all want peace. Obviously. But if you don't slap back at the bully, then - he knows full well that *he's* in control and you count on ANOTHER beating.
posted by padinka at 4:15 PM on September 15, 2001


As a woman she should know her place and keep quiet. Right, my little patriots?
posted by Jack Torrance at 4:18 PM on September 15, 2001


and my dissappointment in Mefafilter's members continues...
posted by hotdoughnutsnow at 4:21 PM on September 15, 2001


As a woman she should know her place and keep quiet. Right, my little patriots?

No one brought gender into this and the condescending attitude leaking out of your snide comment is more than a tad obnoxious.
posted by MrBaliHai at 4:26 PM on September 15, 2001


donkey: Don't believe she said anything about America bringing this upon itself (which is pretty stupid when you consider how many people inside the WTC were likely from other nations or Islamic) or past events bringing this on. Which is basically what you're saying, which puts you in a camp with Jerry Falwell. And you have no freakin' idea what was in the minds of the people who did this. None.

Look, Madaonna just asked for restraint and careful consideration of any action, really, and left it at that, sounds like, without getting into a rehashing of old political arguments. She wore an American flag skirt too, while praying for peace. Madonna had some class there.
posted by raysmj at 4:27 PM on September 15, 2001


Let's reiterate for all the peaceniks: You're right, there's a lot of warmongers out there, and I personally think it's strange for someone to take pleasure, or wish for bloodshed. I think in this instance, however, we're looking for justice. The price paid for this justice will be blood - including some serious collateral damage, that of innocents. It's awful, and I hate it, but I think the end result will be more American lives saved, and that should be priority one. Shouldn't it? We can't save everyone.

Peace should be in our hearts, always. But we can't always let out emotions rule us, or have some altruistic notion about wrong or right.
posted by padinka at 4:28 PM on September 15, 2001


As obnoxious as implying that she has no right to speak her mind just because she enjoys "celebrity" status? Get over yourself.
posted by Jack Torrance at 4:29 PM on September 15, 2001


True enuff, Jack - she has a right to her opinion. It's easy for us to think that celebrities are somehow ignorant of the ways of the world, that they don't know about "real life" - after all, we're down here in the trenches, fighting the good fight, earning a living, etc...

...however, how many times have you watched an interview with a celebrity and they get all intellectual, and you just wanna puke?
posted by padinka at 4:34 PM on September 15, 2001


Alright, padinka, (no sarcasm) you got me there. On the other hand, her little speech wasn't the worst I've ever heard. Gwyneth Paltrow can get "out there"...but I still love 'er.
posted by Jack Torrance at 4:38 PM on September 15, 2001


Ptrin: Want to inform as to why a Russian boycott of the Olympics would be poetic? (Which was an awfully long time ago, by the way, and a very minor event historically.) Have we attacked anyone yet? And for cryin' out loud, thousands of people just died last week in the WTC/Pentagon disaster. What's your point? Are you that full of bitterness? And for what?
posted by raysmj at 4:39 PM on September 15, 2001


..at any rate, you gotta like Prodigal's headline: "Another heavy thinker weighs in." I like it.
posted by padinka at 4:39 PM on September 15, 2001


Jack: I'm feeling ya, baby... ya ever get deep into these threads and think to yourself, "Man... all of a sudden we're debating the validity of Madonna's grasp of current events" (eh?) Whoa, I need to go make some coffee or something.
posted by padinka at 4:42 PM on September 15, 2001


What is the point of this post? If you think it's stupid for Madonna to be weighing in on the issue, why post her opinion on an already cluttered front page? It's not like there's been a shortage of news recently.
posted by Doug at 4:46 PM on September 15, 2001


Sounds like a mind-bender, Dougie - if there's no point, why point it out? It would seem this whole dialogue is... pointless. But I'm glad you pointed it out.
posted by padinka at 4:48 PM on September 15, 2001


donkey, you speak of an unending legacy of violence. Unfortunately, history IS just that. The very freedoms that allow us to debate in this manner were taken at gunpoint from the British. This isn't about making an arbitrary contribution to that legacy of violence. It's about defending our own freedoms and lives. These people would kill you if they could. If Usama bin Laden was holding a .45 to your head, would you defend yourself? Would you commit "violence" to save your life? I'm serious when I ask.
posted by prodigal at 4:50 PM on September 15, 2001


i suppose celebrities reach more people than all the well written articles asking for restraint and careful consideration before doing something stupid which will affect the whole world.
posted by arf at 4:57 PM on September 15, 2001


padinka: LOL...well people are quick to draw battle lines when it comes to pop culture.
posted by Jack Torrance at 4:57 PM on September 15, 2001


Freedom of Speech and expression - everywhere in the world.

Freedom of Religion; the freedom of every person to worship God in his own way - everywhere in the world.

Freedom from Want - which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peace time life for its inhabitants - everywhere in the world.

Freedom from Fear - which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor - anywhere in the world.


It seems we have lost the fourth, are we losing the first and second? And without the other three can the third be far behind?
posted by bjgeiger at 4:59 PM on September 15, 2001


I would appeal to common sense on the FREEDOM FROM FEAR issue, by stating that *never* will we ever rid the world from weapons of destruction. No one wants another arms race, but eventually... someone in the next village is going to try and come over and take your shit. You ought to be prepared.

We weren't.
posted by padinka at 5:03 PM on September 15, 2001


arf, LOL. Is this a corollary to the chimps and Shakespeare theory? Jack Torrance, of course Madonna is entitled to an opinion. Just like Condaleeza Rice has an opinion about music. Have we seen any wire reports about Rice's musical likes and dislikes? The point is that most of these celebrities are pampered hypocrites. Their opinions are upweighted by the media until they become the dogma of a pagan religion. When Kissinger gets a column in Rolling Stone, I'll start paying attention to Madonna's Middle East Policy.
posted by prodigal at 5:10 PM on September 15, 2001


prodigal, i wonder what you said if slipknot or the blood hound gang made a similar statement. apart from this, kids, if you want to flame people go ahead. i'm off.
posted by arf at 5:19 PM on September 15, 2001


The Blood Hound Gang should be given just as much respect as the next musician.. after all, they coined the phrase: "Hooray for Boobies." That's something to think about.
posted by padinka at 5:24 PM on September 15, 2001


raysmj: i was agreeing with madonna's right to say whatever she wants. i can't believe how thoroughly you misread what i said.

i couldn't possibly be in a camp with falwell et al. that's ludicrous. they're ludicrous.
posted by donkeyschlong at 5:25 PM on September 15, 2001


mmmmmmmm....oh, sorry, I started thinking: pagan+ Material Girl...you get the picture. And you were saying?
posted by Jack Torrance at 5:28 PM on September 15, 2001


see, my problem is this: the afghanis wouldn't have any particular beef with us if we hadn't sold our souls to them during the eighties to piss off the reds. the cia trained them in the very black arts they're now employing against us. so in a sense, when we facilitated their violence against our then-enemy, we lay the groundwork for their violence against us. violence begat violence.

do they need to be slammed down? most probably. but it must be surgical in the extreme, and relentlessly thorough. we've already fucked up so many times in the past that i have little faith we're gonna eradicate the threat now. we're just gonna indoctrinate the next generation of crazies in the rhetoric of retribution.
posted by donkeyschlong at 5:33 PM on September 15, 2001


we're just gonna indoctrinate the next generation of crazies in the rhetoric of retribution.

You poet, you! Of course, who ever heard of a poet called donkeyschlong?

You make some good points, schlongy, although I wouldn't say we "sold our souls to the afghanis." Are we in some way shape or form culpable for the events of history as they are unfolding today? Of course. However, as I recall, we did not as of Tuesday, hijack any planes and fly them into any buildings, nor we in the space of a day exterminate thousands of foreign citizens in one fell swoop. No offense to you, Donkey, you beautiful wordspinner, but I'm not worried about the next generation of crazies as the moment - I'd like to see the current wackos center stage right about now for a brief meeting with the firing squad.
posted by padinka at 5:42 PM on September 15, 2001


Speaking of heavy thinkers and as long as we're on the subject:

Q: What the fuck were many of us saying, bickering, snivelling about mere hours before the disaster?

A: Dubya. Now there's a beacon of supreme intellect! Hahaha. . .

Madonna I've heard has an IQ approaching genius. Ahh yes here it is 140.

Anybody who stands up and decries war and presents its alternative, peace, to the masses of scared and confused youth has my vote of support.
posted by crasspastor at 5:47 PM on September 15, 2001


Hey Crasspastor! You said it! Compared to you, old Dubya's a real box of rocks. Let's see now, you've got a Bachelor of Arts Degree in History from Yale and an MBA from Harvard too, right?
posted by padinka at 5:53 PM on September 15, 2001


140! Holy Mackeral! Well, I for one believe everything I read. Especially on fan sites.

But back to Afghanistan (which sort of rhymes with Jennifer Anniston) (someone mentioned poetry, sorry). At what point did our relationship sour with them? And no, I haven't "been keeping abreast of foreign policy". So now that we have that out of the way, just give me the answer.
posted by Jack Torrance at 5:57 PM on September 15, 2001


Yeah, Madonna did my taxes last year. What a gal.
posted by padinka at 5:58 PM on September 15, 2001


I wasn't sayin' nuttin about Dubya padinka.

I was sayin' somthin' about him five days ago though.

He's stupid. She's stupid. In fact while we're at it we're all fucking stupid for not giving up during the dark unsure years of puberty and doing ourselves in. We should have all done ourselves in and at least saved our own selves the heartache.

Yeah padinka. . .like I was *really* taking a fucking jab at George W. Bush! Fucking lighten up.

And. . .Jack Torrance, about the fan site as source for verifiable information. Completely agree. But, swear to god this is true, my old high school principal used to also be hers when he lived in Michigan. Long, stupid story, but it's really something I've known somewhere in my fleshy hard drive for some time.
posted by crasspastor at 6:04 PM on September 15, 2001


Crasspastor - I've lightened considerably since our last encounter. But the frequency with which you employ the "f" word is giving me pause. Is there a hidden reason for your anger? I really don't think "stupid" is an apt description for our President. It's kind of like watching a foreign film and saying "Well that's just stupid" because you don't understand it.

I know you're going to hate me forever, but you ought to expect a wee bit o' flack when you dis the leader of the free world. (did I just use that old cliche?) Ok, I've lightened even more. I am ready to love you.
posted by padinka at 6:12 PM on September 15, 2001


You're principal had a Maddy fan site? Am I reading this right? Either I'm in seriouis need of sleep, or else this is the craziest thing I've seen all day. If it's true, that's got to violate some sort of ordinance...somewhere.
posted by Jack Torrance at 6:12 PM on September 15, 2001


Your, rather. Erm, the spell check must be broken.
posted by Jack Torrance at 6:13 PM on September 15, 2001


crassraptor, the alternative isn't between war and peace. the alternative, for the short term at least, is between Americans dying and terrorists dying. If we do nothing, they will kill more Americans. If we kill them, they will not be able to do so. I don't favor war, I just favor our own continued existence at the expense of those who want to kill us.
posted by prodigal at 6:30 PM on September 15, 2001


My high school principal also used to be her principal in Michigan. He was my principal in Colorado however.

Ron Booth's his name.

Padinka: I took angry exception to your snarky comments of my patently *unloaded* reference to George W. Bush. I love you too. Really. And I apologize. Twasn't giving the old Commander in Chief any flak at all really.

However, if you have a problem with the use of the word "fucking" though, you're, in my approximation, from my stint here at MeFi, on the wrong messageboard. Not that I use the fucker all the time, but if you ran a word search of Metafilter, you'll find that it is used. In this case I happened to use it to bear my flat teeth! Honestly, no love lost or gained. It's just the language I tend to use. Like me or hate me, I'm fucking right here along with you.
posted by crasspastor at 6:33 PM on September 15, 2001


Any word yet on what Kid Rock has to say about the impending outbreak of war?
posted by Jack Torrance at 6:38 PM on September 15, 2001


galprod: Did you just refer to me as crassraptor?
posted by crasspastor at 6:42 PM on September 15, 2001


Speaking of war...
posted by Jack Torrance at 6:44 PM on September 15, 2001


Not if you enjoy the shrieking of a raptor. When they moan you know you've hit the right spot.

Not that I'm a raptor.

Perhaps Jurraissic Park would be a good movie rental tonight. Death at the hands of cgi dinosaurs. I can deal with that. . .
posted by crasspastor at 6:49 PM on September 15, 2001


Let's reiterate for all the peaceniks

Great, now a "peacenik" is someone is isn't ready to agree to a no holds barred civilian massacre. Who is really saying do nothing and move on? There are other solutions than just carpet bombing the Arabian world for some simple-minded sense of revenge.

I really don't know whats scarier blind nationalism or terrorism. We should be extra careful around both those 800 lbs gorillas.
posted by skallas at 7:00 PM on September 15, 2001


Assumption, assumption and more assumption, skallas. Get over it.
posted by Wulfgar! at 7:10 PM on September 15, 2001


This thread makes me wonder about the amount of respect a large portion of our society gives to those who shake the
booty / run the ball. I realize Madonna is entitled to her opinion on this issue. I'm just a little nauseated by the fact that it warrants a news article. In any case, here's a list of people I want to interview about what they think we need to do.

Tiger Woods
Britney
Michael Jordan
Julia Roberts
Travolta

And skallas, I think it's possible that terrorism is a larger gorilla than nationalism. Especially for the USA, right now, right here. You know what I mean? I don't think our country is exactly brimming over with patriots, even now.
posted by dr_emory at 8:16 PM on September 15, 2001


As a woman she should know her place and keep quiet. Right, my little patriots?


Give me a break jack. I've complained about the same crap coming from Sting, and the lead singers of various modern rock outfits (all male). NOT COOL to try and twist my statement into sexism.
posted by glenwood at 9:15 PM on September 15, 2001


This reminds me how the other day, while feeling a bit buried in the news and patriotic montages and solemn tone of communication, I said "I'm turning to MTV news now, as I am very curious to hear Lil' Bow wow's take on this tragedy".

Of course madonna has a right to say her piece. And I have a right to find it cliched and irritating. and I have a right be even more irritated that it's NEWS.
posted by glenwood at 9:24 PM on September 15, 2001


Hey Crasspastor - I don't give a *fuck* which words you use. In fact, I encourage the use of profanity as long as it's coupled with some serious hardcore passionate discourse.

I like that you used the word "snarky," especially. I was set adrift by your peculiar verbiage. Keep it going, homeboy.
posted by padinka at 9:55 PM on September 15, 2001


Glen - yeah, I'm man enuff to admit I've been watching MTV (cuz I'm super fond of them wacky videos) and I saw Cason Daly asking Ja Rule what his take was on the attacks.

He looked rather uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable too. I changed the channel.
posted by padinka at 10:01 PM on September 15, 2001


And skallas, I think it's possible that terrorism is a larger gorilla than nationalism.

Nationalism is the prime catalyst in almost all wars. Body counts and property damages that terrorism can never dream to match. Its big now for you because the US just got hit. In reality terrorism is a small piece in the great pie of injustice.

Going back to Madonna, I think calming the USA chanters down was the only socially responsible thing to do in that situation.

I don't think our country is exactly brimming over with patriots, even now.


Nationalism isn't patriotism. Nationalism is putting your country above all others and to hell with everyone else. Nationalism is the reactionary "lets bomb all so and so to the stone age."

Patriotism is simply loyalty to your country.
posted by skallas at 10:24 PM on September 15, 2001


I don't think I believe that nationalism is always bad. On one hand you have "lets bomb them to the stone age" and on the other you have what basically amounts to teamwork in solving a common problem. (Defining that problem is the task at hand for the USA)

At some point, if the United States decides to make war, we are all going to need to get on the same team, e.g. let's deliberate about which way we're going to push the cart, but once we decide, let's both push like hell in the same direction. If (i hope not) it comes to the point where the world is at war (and I mean real war, not the symbolic war on terrorism), let's fucking win. While comments like "If you're not with us, you're against us" often get tossed around lightly, I think they're worth thinking about.
posted by dr_emory at 10:40 PM on September 15, 2001


While comments like "If you're not with us, you're against us" often get tossed around lightly, I think they're worth thinking about.

I can't disagree more. A symptom of a functional democracy is dissent. Look at the social climate during the Vietnam war. Protest was everywhere and it was in hindsight the proper thing to do. Whoever our official enemy may be communists, terrorists, etc an individual certainly has the right to decide to go for or against popular political ideology.

You paint a very attractive but unrealistic picture of war. The truth and righteousness of our possible conflict shall defeat in evil villian, correct? Sorry but good and evil belong in comic books and religious books, not in everyday reality.
posted by skallas at 11:11 PM on September 15, 2001


who said anything about good vs. evil? Not me. Don't assume I'm an idiot, please.

Good vs. evil is irrelevant here. I'm just saying that once the dissent / political discussion / etc. has borne fruit, it might be a good idea to say, "OK, I wasn't for this originally but since we as a group decided to do this I'm going to help as best I can." You see my point? Someone can be for or against a political ideology without being a dead weight the rest of us are dragging.
posted by dr_emory at 6:36 AM on September 16, 2001


Among the myriad of other things discussed above that make her comments largely irrelevant, Madonna doesn't even live in the US anymore.
posted by schlyer at 10:52 AM on September 16, 2001


« Older Is this the AYBABTU of WTC?   |   The perfect structure Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments



Post