September 15, 2001

9:15 PM

So tragically wrong...Proof that the FBI didn't have a clue. From a year ago: "Even the American cells of violent Middle East political movements as Hamas and Hezbollah, [then FBI Director Louis] Freeh declared, are devoted exclusively to "fundraising and low-level intelligence gathering." Salon writer Bruce Shapiro even goes so far as to call the National Commission on Terrorism's finding that "The threat from terrorists is so high, the potential for massive casualties is so real, that an independent panel is pushing the government to take immediate, drastic action" as a con job.
posted by theNonsuch (18 comments total)

Sorry, I didn't summarize the article very well... While I agree (to some extent, at least) that personally invasive surveillance techniques are pretty gross, writer Bruce Shapiro is just so shockingly wrong...
posted by theNonsuch at 9:17 PM on September 15, 2001

The original article Shapiro mentions - funny, I don't see the quote he pulled. Ah well.
posted by theNonsuch at 9:26 PM on September 15, 2001

Regardless of what you got from it theNonsuch. From now on, we will live in a heavily surveillanced world where America still views itself as apart from the lion's share of the planet and simply "protecting" itself from external threats living happily inside our borders. Or, we can, from this day forward view ourselves as a part of the rest of the world.

That we succeed or fail as the rest of the world does likewise, is dependent upon how we view ourselves as a nation in the coming weeks, months, years. We stay the same or we make progress. Nonetheless, the world still functions, its people still full of opinions and propagandic emotions. America, from this day forward chooses whether democracy and freedom are mainstays on this planet or they go with the strategy of the recent past and seek to do what only benefits American interests in full cognizance that there are other valid interests to consider.
posted by crasspastor at 9:58 PM on September 15, 2001

The Chimp and Dr. Strangefeld were so hot to gull us into Star Wars that they spun the commission report as Shapiro did. I'm sure they hope nobody will remember.

There's a lesson in it for Bushie-watchers. They're so busy hoovering out the public treasury that they'll sell out our security, our environment, our privacy, and our economy.

And now they wrap themselves in the flag. Don't forget what Adlai Stevenson said, To strike the freedom of the mind with the iron fist of patriotism is an old and ugly trick.
posted by gwyon at 10:01 PM on September 15, 2001

Look here gwyon, I don't think we need to wrap everything that's being done in overly simplistic imagery. The terrorists didn't pinpoint Democrats, Republicans, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Israel-supporters, Nationalists or Chomsky-ites. The fact is that the people in the WTC were killed simply because they were American.

We're on the same team here, like it or not. Overt recognition of that fact is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when our safety may depend on our solidarity.
posted by dr_emory at 10:25 PM on September 15, 2001

Worse is the emergency legislation that being enacted on digital communications and proposals to control encryption.

Its just like after the TWA flight 800 explosion, the assumption was a terrorist attack and congress gave more powers to law enforcement to deal with aliens. Of course it wasn't a terrorist attack, but the law and the recent carnivore/domestic spying laws certainly will not be repealed. Ever.

Its a power grab and it works great. Thousands die so our politicos and law enforcement can push whatever they like regardless of its effectiveness. Where are bin ladin's encrypted messages? They probably exist in the same fantasy land as the TWA 800 terrorists. I can't think of anything more shameful than that, other than the apathy of Americans towards civil rights and the lack of appropriate levels of criticism during and after a disaster.

As far as surveillance goes, its all the rage in England. It could spread as terrorist FUD spreads.
posted by skallas at 10:48 PM on September 15, 2001

As far as surveillance goes, its all the rage in England. It could spread as terrorist FUD spreads.


Terrorist FUD, eh? Hmmm.....seems to me that when I witness what happened this week we should all be filled with Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

Let's take the civil liberty arguments one at a time instead of turning this entire event into a conspiracy to take away your PGP.

My God, Man, look up from your command line and have some perspective.
posted by dewelch at 10:58 PM on September 15, 2001

I know I'm wrong but I think at times like this encryption - and even privacy - are chickenshit concerns. Why not have every one of us tagged and watched wherever we go and whatever we do, if it will prevent the terrible violence that is everywhere?
I regret this feeling but I'd just like to say it's there. Politicos know this and so I suppose we should all be on guard against ourselves.
As someone who has been convicted five times of the crime known here as "abuse of freedom of the press" I know I am also digging my own grave, but unless we face the demons in us, bla bla bla.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 11:03 PM on September 15, 2001

It is true that freedoms once lost become very difficult to regain. The idea that Carnivore will somehow be shelved if we succeed in destroying Bin Laden's network flies in the face of the lessons of history. The fact is that the US government has fought PC-based crypto tooth and nail every since it became available, burdening it with export restrictions and even imprisoning Phil Zimmerman for the "crime" of taking the concept and making it work, and evidently the only person who was affected by this was Zimmerman. The terrorists still got their hands on crypto technology.

In any case I think I can say without too much doubt that Freeh's tenure at the FBI will not be judged very positively by history...
posted by clevershark at 11:06 PM on September 15, 2001

So is dr_emory a school-bestowed nom de MeFi?

I don't think it's being overly simplistic to point out that our rulers helped get us to this pass. And that the half-century process has accelerated recently.

I'm willing to stand in solidarity with my fellow Americans, but I'm not willing to follow the Bushies down to perdition. We can try to understand how we got somewhere, instead of dancing to the drumbeat of those who don't have our real interests at heart.
posted by gwyon at 11:16 PM on September 15, 2001

My God, Man, look up from your command line and have some perspective.

If "some perspective" is constantly living with fear and doubt, as you suggested, than I'll have none of it. I accept that everything I do contains risk and live with it. Because a major terrorist attack just happened doesn't mean I'm going to cower and suddenly agree with everything Congress will do.

Terrorist FUD, eh? Hmmm.....seems to me that when I witness what happened this week we should all be filled with Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

Its nice to know that the NY police, hospitals, and firemen didn't take your advice to cower and give in to FUD. Instead they understood the risk and did their jobs. Bravo to them, shame on you.
posted by skallas at 11:22 PM on September 15, 2001

Sorry you missed my point, there.

The FUD I was talking about was YOUR FUD that crypto tools are somehow more important than the fate of the nation.

Sorry skallas, it just doesn't measure up. I too want crypto and believe it is important....after we clean up and find some hope that this country is secure. Crypto won't be worth much if the terrorists continue to try and kill every last one of us. Fight for civil liberties, yes, but let's make sure we have a country to provide us those liberties first.
posted by dewelch at 11:40 PM on September 15, 2001

Didn't They REALLY know?
Are we being told the whole truth? Read CIA Director Must Resign!(9/14/01)

posted by rjrando at 11:44 PM on September 15, 2001

Read CIA Director Must Resign!(9/14/01)


Newsmax? That's worse than ananova.
posted by skallas at 11:47 PM on September 15, 2001

The FUD I was talking about was YOUR FUD that crypto tools are somehow more important than the fate of the nation.

When did I write that? My post is about opportunism in congress with regards to crypto. Considering that crypto isn't a weapon and bin ladin or these terrorists in question never used it I don't think it affects the "fate of the nation."

Crypto won't be worth much if the terrorists continue to try and kill every last one of us.

Your hyberbole is getting way out of hand.
posted by skallas at 11:51 PM on September 15, 2001

Hmmm....yes. It is. I need to find a better way to express this.

Still think the issue at hand, future attacks, internal terrorism, is still a more important issue than the fate of crypto at this moment. This could change tomorrow, next week depending on what happens.
posted by dewelch at 11:55 PM on September 15, 2001

It's not just about crypto, dewelch. It is very unsettling the way people are screaming to know why the intelligence community didn't see this coming. The only way they could have seen this coming is by X-tenning and tracking the whole bloody lot of us - too many people seem much too eager to trade privacy for security.

We're early witness to the tragi-comic results of frenzied data mining, and I for one find the prospects of a super-energized Carnivore, Echelon, and god-knows-what-else, more than mildy disturbing.

Quote from "Brazil":

Sam Lowry: I only know you got the wrong man.
Jack Lint: Information Transit got the wrong man. I got the *right* man. The wrong one was delivered to me as the right man, I accepted him on good faith as the right man. Was I wrong?
posted by Opus Dark at 1:02 AM on September 16, 2001

Opus Dark: Also the scene in "The Fugitive" where Harrison Ford, playing Richard Kimble, is cornered by the Tommy Lee Jones character and desperately screams "I'm innocent..." only to hear his pursuer cynically scream back "I don't care!"

Sometimes you gotta get your man and any man will do, right?
posted by MiguelCardoso at 2:04 AM on September 16, 2001