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I. NEVER. Would.
May 29, 2011 8:48 PM   Subscribe

The Doctor will buss a cap directly into yo' ass
posted by clarknova (273 comments total) 43 users marked this as a favorite

 
It's funny 'cause it's true!
posted by hippybear at 8:58 PM on May 29, 2011


This needs the 'Die Motherfuckers' tag.
posted by artof.mulata at 9:00 PM on May 29, 2011 [3 favorites]


back up in your ass with the regeneration
posted by Mikey-San at 9:02 PM on May 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


they see me warpin'
they be hatin'
exterminatin'
trying to catch me timey-wimey
posted by hattifattener at 9:03 PM on May 29, 2011 [23 favorites]


Great title.

The Doctor clearly underwent a change of heart re: guns before NuWho. And then engaged in a touch of revisionist history, which is pretty easy when you're a time traveller.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:03 PM on May 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


Tom Baker is all PIMP.
posted by mrbill at 9:04 PM on May 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


This reminds me how the soundtrack to Office Space was a pretty good gangsta rap compilation album, all things considered.
posted by hellojed at 9:04 PM on May 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


Bigger on the inside, BIATCH!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:05 PM on May 29, 2011 [7 favorites]


And Doctor #2 came out blasting with both barrels... or both satellite dishes, whatever. But I also like the Dead Ringers' "Several Doctors for the Holidays" sketch.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:07 PM on May 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


The double garbage can lid gun that Troughton's Doctor was using is hilarious.
posted by Harpocrates at 9:08 PM on May 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


Patrick Troughton and Tom Baker you simply would not fuck with. Eccleston? He tried to butch it out with the leather jacket, and David Tennant kept running around shouting about how great he was and you shouldn't fuck with him - they acted tough, sure. But the guys who didn't act or look tough - 2, 4 and 7 - they could and would wreck your day with a dead fish and a raised eyebrow.

I mean, does anyone really doubt how awesome Tom Baker with 21st century special effects would be?
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:16 PM on May 29, 2011 [27 favorites]


This needs the 'Die Motherfuckers' tag.

For German readers?
posted by jaduncan at 9:20 PM on May 29, 2011 [27 favorites]


I am only familiar with NuWho and was shocked, SHOCKED to see the last three seconds of that video.
posted by munchingzombie at 9:21 PM on May 29, 2011 [8 favorites]


0:39 FTW
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:21 PM on May 29, 2011 [3 favorites]


you got your segregation in my regeneration
posted by Eideteker at 9:26 PM on May 29, 2011


I am only familiar with NuWho and was shocked, SHOCKED to see the last three seconds of that video.

Because he only killed one dude, as opposed to an entire species? Or because he actually used his hands instead of wibbly wobbly timey wimey?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:30 PM on May 29, 2011 [8 favorites]


Rose Tyler: Doctor, they've got guns.
The Doctor: And I haven't! Which makes me the better person, don't you think? They can shoot me dead, but the moral high ground is mine!

Oh, Ten...SOMEone forgot the past!
posted by spinifex23 at 9:32 PM on May 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


Because he only killed one dude, as opposed to an entire species? Or because he actually used his hands instead of wibbly wobbly timey wimey?

Because he did a Steven Segal and snapped some dude's neck then said "Come along, Sara" while whimsical music played. Contrast that with David Tennant weeping loud over-acty tears of the deepest grief over the cow in his hamburger.
posted by munchingzombie at 9:38 PM on May 29, 2011 [17 favorites]


I hear that lately he's taken to busting a sonic in his companions .
posted by Poet_Lariat at 9:49 PM on May 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


He loudly claims that he never uses guns, but he used to use them all the time. Is he Batman?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 9:53 PM on May 29, 2011 [5 favorites]


His thoughts were red thoughts: “The Doctor clearly underwent a change of heart re: guns before NuWho. And then engaged in a touch of revisionist history, which is pretty easy when you're a time traveller.”

On many points, yes, but not on this one. This video is sort of interesting because it shows all the exceptions to what was the rule then – the Doctor was always talking about how he didn't use guns, and about how he thought they were barbaric. I remember he always used to tease the Brigadier about his need for weapons. Particularly Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor, as I recall, was a fan of this little lecture about how weapons weren't needed, but all of them, on through the (awesome) Seventh, who was not above convincing baddies to commit suicide, but would not use a weapon.
posted by koeselitz at 10:20 PM on May 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


Actually the Doctor's so OG he's been kidnapping good 90's rappers and transporting them out of the gang wars to NZ. I read it on PBS.
posted by jaduncan at 10:23 PM on May 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


WHERE MY COMPANIONS IS AT? WHERE MY COMPANIONS IS AT? WHERE THE FUCK MY COMPANIONS AT?
posted by katillathehun at 10:26 PM on May 29, 2011 [6 favorites]


Is this music being used to sell cars yet?
posted by Eideteker at 10:29 PM on May 29, 2011


Particularly Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor, as I recall, was a fan of this little lecture about how weapons weren't needed, but all of them, on through the (awesome) Seventh, who was not above convincing baddies to commit suicide, but would not use a weapon.

Is it just me or is 'convincing a bad guy to commit suicide' somehow creepier than just shooting them? The Serial Killer of the Week who did that on Dexter gave me the biggest chill..
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:32 PM on May 29, 2011 [3 favorites]


Also, I want to say: the video is somewhat deceptive. That big ol' gun Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor is wielding at the very beginning, and later aims and fires at a be-robed Gallifreyan minister, apparently vaporizing him? It later turned out (this was in The Deadly Assassin) that, not only was it not the Doctor in control there (it was the Master, controlling the Doctor's actions through the Matrix) but the Doctor's shot didn't even hit the minister at all – it was all just a set-up to make it look that way.

Can't vouch for the neck-snapping scene at the end, though. I can't quite place it – seems like it must be from Seeds Of Doom, but I don't know.

Lovecraft In Brooklyn: “Is it just me or is 'convincing a bad guy to commit suicide' somehow creepier than just shooting them?”

Absolutely – but somehow it made him cooler. He was one of my favorites. Also, his companion's favorite thing to do was blow shit up. Seriously, she was obsessed with explosives.
posted by koeselitz at 10:41 PM on May 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


Time Lord Paradise

As I walk through the valley of the Shadow Proclamation
I realize there’s time for a new regeneration
Cuz I’ve been running for so long protecting all the races
Time and relative dimension in spaces

You and your Sontarans better watch where you’re walking
They call me the Time Lord cuz I do the talking
Dont give me no hassle or I’ll take you for a trip
I never soniced an alien that didn’t deserve it.

Been spending most my lives living in a Time Lord Paradise
Been spending most my lives living in a Time Lord Paradise
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:46 PM on May 29, 2011 [39 favorites]


Well Seven was pretty creepy, really. Unlike most of the other Doctors, Seven was quite happy to manipulate his companions, not for their own good, but for his own good. On the other hand he had Ace, who rivals Sarah Jane in the best companion ever stakes.

Also, is anyone else pretty surprised by the Doctor's actions at the end of the last episode. I mean what he did kind of seems to go against the entire message of the episode up to that point.
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 10:48 PM on May 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


Gotta repost something from a MetaTalk thread I started:

Compare Bin Laden and Doctor Who

Oooh, I know this, I know this! One is a reckless pontificating lunatic who destroys civilizations and ends up hurting his own people more than all his enemies combined, and the other one is Bin Laden. What do I win?
posted by George_Spiggott

posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:56 PM on May 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


Is this the place where I say, "WTF, ending of 'The Almost People'?"

Because if so, I'd like to say, "WTF, ending of 'The Almost People.'"
posted by Navelgazer at 10:59 PM on May 29, 2011 [12 favorites]


if it is, can we stick a spoiler warning at the top of the thread? apparently now the US is on Aussie time for the episodes, so The Almost People has only run in the UK
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:04 PM on May 29, 2011


Sample city through Fembot Central
Basic ice gun, elemental

Swings brings new technology
the W
the H
the O
and the -ology

Dalek Force coming down with mayhem
Looking at my watch time 3 AM

Got to teach, and everything you'll learn
all point to the fact that time is eternal

It's 3 AM
3 AM

It's 3 AM
eternal
posted by humannaire at 11:07 PM on May 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


Pretty sure the neck-snapping was a christmas-reel goof by Baker.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 11:07 PM on May 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


pssssttt.... it was his effing sled all along!
posted by Poet_Lariat at 11:11 PM on May 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


Oh, there WAS a new Doctor Who tonight in the UK? I thought they were taking a break this week or something. I guess it's back to torrenting for me. Fuck BBC America. They haven't earned my eyeballs for their advertisers in ages, and they had there for a bit with their timely Doctor Who episodes. But now... Fuck 'em.
posted by hippybear at 11:15 PM on May 29, 2011 [4 favorites]


His thoughts were red thoughts: I've replied to your post over in the old thread
posted by coriolisdave at 11:18 PM on May 29, 2011


it was the Master, controlling the Doctor's actions through the Matrix

I'm so glad there was someone else to point this out.
posted by pompomtom at 11:47 PM on May 29, 2011 [2 favorites]


It's a bit like Homer Simpson. Theoretically, the character is described as selfish and insensitive, but the plot requirements mean he frequently has to act against that character, making grand romantic gestures and sacrificing his dreams for his family. So what is his real character? Is he defined by what we're told about him, or his actions?

In the same way, the Doctor is theoretically committed to non-violence, but the plot requirements mean that he's constantly using violence, sometimes agonizing over it, sometimes not. It's not just in the old series, even in the latest episode.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:48 PM on May 29, 2011


I came here to kick ass and eat jelly babies... and I'm all out of jelly babies.
posted by Ian A.T. at 12:37 AM on May 30, 2011 [25 favorites]


Six fo' five was the time on the clock,
When me and my homey bailed in the parking lot.
The scene looked strange and it felt like a set up
(Better not be, 'cause if it is, they're getting lit up.)
Oh here they come from the back in they 'lacs.
I'm checkin' for the gats they strap, so whats up black?
(Chill, lets hit a deal, if it ain't up to what you feel then grab your steel.)
posted by bwg at 12:49 AM on May 30, 2011


Yeah, but when does Gil Scott-Heron regenerate?
posted by Devonian at 1:02 AM on May 30, 2011


PSA: I record the BBC America episodes on my TiVo because I like to have them in any format available quickly but watching last week's episode in the BBC America version, I was shocked how much had been edited out -- which included the whole reason why he needs new shoes -- which becomes a fairly obvious as to why this is important once you see the cliffhanger to The Rebel Flesh.

it was the Master, controlling the Doctor's actions through the Matrix

I'm so glad there was someone else to point this out.


Me too.

Also, many of the "gun shaped objects" in the video are not guns, per se, but gun shaped objects that are specialized, non-lethal weapons built for the occasion -- or, in the case of the first Davison example (I think), something that would return Omega to his anti-matter universe in order for the Doctor doppelganger Omega has created to not destroy the entire universe. That's why him holding the actual gun on Davros is such a big deal. Of course, with Pertwee, guns are on the table, no questions asked.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:40 AM on May 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


The Doctor is swag to the maximum.
posted by Ad hominem at 1:42 AM on May 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


Dearie me, so many guns! Venusian aikido FTW.
posted by Coaticass at 1:50 AM on May 30, 2011


To the G, to the A, to the double-L, I / to the F, to the R, to the E, to the Y.
posted by Prince Lazy I at 2:25 AM on May 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


Romana said knock you out.
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:06 AM on May 30, 2011 [5 favorites]


[Hip-hop reference with Doctory bits added in]
posted by mightygodking at 5:16 AM on May 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


The Doctor is not Batman, in that Batman WILL NOT use a gun. Despite what he occasionally says (and usually subverts in the very episode he says it, *cough*last of the time lords*cough*), the Doctor has never been against weaponry or violence. He doesn't solve things with his mind because he feels it's the moral thing, it's because he's an egotist who knows if he just starts shooting he doesn't get to be clever. And he so wants to be clever. When the chips are down (Dalek, for one) he's happy to pick up a gun and start shooting. You can even read between the lines of Dalek and see that he regrets his occasional bits of cleverosity when he should just destroy the threat.

In other words: people act like this is a contradiction in character or a continuity weirdness. They're not understanding the character.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 6:25 AM on May 30, 2011 [8 favorites]


(who in his first story arguably tried to bash a caveman's head in.)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 6:25 AM on May 30, 2011


A good Who thread for discussing The Almost People, I guess, I wouldn't know as I removed the fucker from activity as fast as I could once it became clear the discussion was going that way.
posted by Artw at 7:07 AM on May 30, 2011


The double garbage can lid gun that Troughton's Doctor was using is hilarious.

Heat gun to kill Martians...

P.S. Zoe is underrated.

They ever put Cap'n Jack in a kilt, btw?
posted by mikelieman at 7:10 AM on May 30, 2011


Needs miore Leela knifing people.
posted by Artw at 7:15 AM on May 30, 2011 [4 favorites]


The Doctor is not Batman, in that Batman WILL NOT use a gun.

In the penultimate issue of Final Crisis until the Next Crisis, he uses a gun to shoot Darkseid.

If you'll excuse, I now have to take the long walk into the Cursed Earth, having both known and reported that fact.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:22 AM on May 30, 2011 [3 favorites]


I know that current mod policy is that spoilers are awesome

You can grind this axe in MetaTalk if you need to. I deleted the spoilery comment at the commenter's request.
posted by jessamyn at 7:29 AM on May 30, 2011


Lovecraft In Brooklyn: “Is it just me or is 'convincing a bad guy to commit suicide' somehow creepier than just shooting them?”

Well, the only other example I can think of off the top of my head of someone doing that is Hannibal Lector. You tell me.
posted by Naberius at 7:33 AM on May 30, 2011


Pretty sure the neck-snapping was a christmas-reel goof by Baker.

Nope, that was Scorby in The Seeds of Doom, in the actual episode, but it's okay... that only stunned him. (INORITE?) He meets his end much later at the hands, er, tendrils of his boss's killer alien plant, the Krynoid.
posted by clauclauclaudia at 7:34 AM on May 30, 2011


I really wished I loved Dr. Who. I really do. I feel like I've lost my something credentials for not.
posted by angrycat at 7:46 AM on May 30, 2011


What's the hip-hop track? (I tried to google "die motherfucker rap" without success).
posted by WalkingAround at 7:51 AM on May 30, 2011


Yay new Doctor Who thread.

Now if only BBCAmerica didn't suck. Seriously, delaying the 2nd part of a two parter can only be called cruel. Of course, I torrented it. But I wouldn't have had they made it accessible for me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:57 AM on May 30, 2011 [3 favorites]


Not to mention that only the first airing in the US isn't edited all to hell. Screw that. We can get our fix from them or on our own, and they're sure not making a case for us getting it through them.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:01 AM on May 30, 2011


Seriously. Plus, when I've tried to watch it OnDemand this season, comcast never updates their offerings when they say they're going to. It's listed online as being available, and you can stream it via computer, but it sure feels like a waste of a huge TV.

I predict they're going to experience a significant ratings dip right around this week.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:05 AM on May 30, 2011


You can grind this axe in MetaTalk if you need to. I deleted the spoilery comment at the commenter's request.

Fair enough
posted by Artw at 8:11 AM on May 30, 2011


And Doctor #2 came out blasting with both barrels... or both satellite dishes

seriously, who knew a pair of hubcaps off'n a '50's buick could be so deadly?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:46 AM on May 30, 2011


What's the hip-hop track?

It's Still, by the Geto Boys. You may recognize it from the printer destruction scene in Office Space.

I really wished I loved Dr. Who. I really do. I feel like I've lost my something credentials for not.

Please turn in your TARDIS key on your way out. Oh, and we're dropping you off in Aberdeen. I'm sure you can hitch a ride back to Croydon.
posted by maqsarian at 8:57 AM on May 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


We're currently watching the Black Guardian trilogy at home right now. There's a point in Terminus where the Doctor (Five, for those unfamiliar with the story) gets his ass kicked by the radiation-suited guard. I was all "where is your Venusian aikido? you didn't forget that when your ass regenerated did, did you?"

The video was great, but I would have loved to see some Venusian aikido and the bit from Masque of Mandragora where Four duels the guys with swords. I'd love to see some of that, even if he doesn't kill people, in the new series.
posted by immlass at 9:18 AM on May 30, 2011


So I've just recently gotten into nuWho (that's the terminology, right?). Somewhere in the first season of the reboot it went from "hey, this is campy fun" to "MUST STREAM NEXT EPISODE! THIS IS AWESOME!"

Posts like these make me want to get into classic Who. Where do I start? The streaming episodes on netflix for classic who don't seem to be in any kind of order. I can parse an order from doctors; but I'm fine with dipping into the time stream and starting wherever.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 9:43 AM on May 30, 2011


Really? Just dip wherever. I'd try to get an idea which eps are most respected from every two years or so and just kind of dabble til you get to an area with acting and plots and style you really dig, and then just kind of jump back a bit and watch that season. Then continue on as needed or keep jumping. The show has been few so many permutations that some are bound to intrigue you more than others, and it's long enough that you don't need to worry too much about seeing broad chunks out of order (though within each chunk I'd try to stay in order, if that makes sense)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 9:52 AM on May 30, 2011


been few through so
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 9:53 AM on May 30, 2011


seriously, who knew a pair of hubcaps off'n a '50's buick could be so deadly?

Madonna, amirite?

JKS: I watched a bunch of One through Three on YouTube back when you could get whole serials that way -- I assume that's no longer the case. I have no burning desire to be a completist, so I worked from a hacked list so that I would watch key moments such as the introduction or departure of companions and key eps with major villains as well as the ones that are rated highly by fans. That ends up being a little more than half, as I remember.

I was anxious to continue, but life got in the way. I hope to use the current widespread availability to catch up over time.
posted by dhartung at 10:01 AM on May 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


I am only familiar with NuWho and was shocked, SHOCKED to see the last three seconds of that video.

Five flat out murders a dude (well an evil spotty fuzzy eyebrowed human-ish monster who'd tired to eat Peri*, but still) with a cyanide soaked cloth in the Two Doctors - it was a bit controversial at the time. (I think the excuse was it was too hot - filming in Spain - for them to do anything creative, but I could be wrong)

*Insert own joke here
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:12 AM on May 30, 2011


For those who are interested in tracking their Classic Who watching, I recommend Have you watched it, hmmm?. I know I've seen more Five than I currently have listed, but I'm about 1/3 of the way through the classic series based on what I've marked off. Netflix has been my friend for this, but check your local public library too. I currently have the Black Guardian trilogy out from there.
posted by immlass at 10:27 AM on May 30, 2011 [2 favorites]


*pedantry* The Two Doctors is Two and Six. It was Six who killed with cyanide, not Five.
posted by clauclauclaudia at 10:32 AM on May 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


The streaming episodes on netflix for classic who don't seem to be in any kind of order.

I've recently discovered a few online caches where all episodes from the very first season of Dr. Who (Hartnell) onwards are stored. They are organized by Doctor . If you don't mind downloading 30 Gigs a doctor memail me an I can point you to the cache. The download appears to take roughly 3-4 days due to variable speed issues. I just left it on a background machine and came back later. I snagged a couple early Doctors myself.

The commenter who made mention earlier about the series going from campy fun to must see awesome in the reboot really reflect the way I feel about Who as well. I tend towards hard-core science fiction myself so Who wouldn't usually be my cup of tea but the the enjoyable characters, funny writing and season spanning plot lines keep me engaged. BTW, you'ld have to see it to believe it but the first Doctor was a complete dick - who knew?
posted by Poet_Lariat at 11:15 AM on May 30, 2011 [4 favorites]


*pedantry* The Two Doctors is Two and Six. It was Six who killed with cyanide, not Five.

Apologies, I miscounted [burns scarf in penance]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:23 AM on May 30, 2011


The Doctor, much like Batman, usually refuses to use guns, not because he has any really good moral reason for doing so, but rather because he is bugfuck crazy and he doesn't like easy solutions.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:28 AM on May 30, 2011 [15 favorites]


Although new Who will quite often stand around while other people use guns in his defence, effectively forcing them to kill so he doesn't have to - going so far as to program the entire human race to kill another race on sight in the early going of the latest series.

Beyond a certain point, it feels like it would demonstrate more moral courage just to pick up a gun and start blasting...
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:30 PM on May 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


This is great, someone should make more of these - the cheesy sets meld with the squeltches.....it's near perfect.
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:00 PM on May 30, 2011


Tizzle And Rizzle Dizzle In Spizzle, yo.
posted by ...possums at 3:27 PM on May 30, 2011 [2 favorites]


For people unfamiliar with the history, the character of the Doctor is supposed to always refuse to use weapons. Unfortunately this means every new writer thinks they are being very original when they try to put a gun in his hand.
posted by w0mbat at 6:54 PM on May 30, 2011 [2 favorites]


Poet_Lariat: " BTW, you'ld have to see it to believe it but the first Doctor was a complete dick - who knew?"

My fiance started with NuWho and was curious to see some of the older ones as she got deeper into it. The second full episode she was able to make it through was "The Daleks" with Hartnell. She was shocked at his behavior; sabotaging the TARDIS to explore Skaro, trying to abandon a companion to his death so that he could run away. She refers to the first Doctor as Doctor Douche.
posted by charred husk at 10:01 AM on May 31, 2011


Unfortunately this means every new writer thinks they are being very original when they try to put a gun in his hand.

Now put a gun INSIDE someone's hand and we'll talk.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 12:40 PM on May 31, 2011


Like the autons? (or was that what you were saying)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 4:24 PM on May 31, 2011


Yeah. I'm pretty much in love with the gun hands. Sublime cheesiness.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 4:29 PM on May 31, 2011 [1 favorite]


It amazes me that noone has yet made an Auton-based fan video to Gun Fingers (NSFW lyrics).
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:58 AM on June 1, 2011


charred husk: "Poet_Lariat: " BTW, you'ld have to see it to believe it but the first Doctor was a complete dick - who knew?"

My fiance started with NuWho and was curious to see some of the older ones as she got deeper into it. The second full episode she was able to make it through was "The Daleks" with Hartnell. She was shocked at his behavior; sabotaging the TARDIS to explore Skaro, trying to abandon a companion to his death so that he could run away. She refers to the first Doctor as Doctor Douche.
"

Yet by the end of the first season, after kidnapping them in anger at the beginning of the series, he's acting like a petulant child when Barbara and Ian think they may have finally returned to Earth during their time period and consider leaving him, upset that the family unit he's created for he and Susan is going to be broken up.

For all the talk about the TARDIS Police Box being the only constant throughout the series, what that first season especially really shows that Doctor Who is constantly been about a totally alien alien who surrounds himself with humanity because it makes him the man he wants to be.

Despite his protestations, the Doctor isn't the man who never would -- in fact, he's almost definitely the man who would except that he surrounds himself with those who remind him he shouldn't.

Anybody who thinks post-2005 Doctor Who invented 'character development' between the Doctor and the rest of the TARDIS crew should carefully watch the first season from beginning to end (with reconstructions when you have to); the unfolding changes between the Doctor and his human companions is basically the most character development the show will have until, well, 2005 (with the exception of the much maligned soap operatic turn it took in the Davison era, when character development meant false conflict between the TARDIS crew which just meant lots of pouting and shouting).

And that's the best thing about the show now, being run in the hands of those who have grown up thinking about the character more than most would consider healthy. The Doctor says lots of stuff and struts a ton -- but as scenes like the 10th Doctor's regeneration or the conclusion of Amy's Choice show -- he doesn't always believe his own press, which makes for a far more compelling read
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:32 AM on June 1, 2011 [8 favorites]


MetaFilter: lots of pouting and shouting
posted by hippybear at 11:04 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Master, busta, when the fuck you at?
Can't strap a sonic so I know you gotcha gat
Fucked up your cortex when you stared into the Vortex
Now the hood you threw up with, Time Lords you grew up with
Don't even respect yo ass
That's why it's time for The Doctor to check yo ass
Used to be my homie, used to be my Ace
Now I want to slap the regenerations out yo mouth
posted by Eideteker at 6:53 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Anybody who thinks post-2005 Doctor Who invented 'character development' between the Doctor and the rest of the TARDIS crew should carefully watch the first season from beginning to end (with reconstructions when you have to);

To keep you sane while you do that, you could possibly follow the progress of a Dr Who obsessive and his non-obsessive wife, who have decided to do just that:

Adventures With the Wife in Space

(Watching old Who also reminded me that incoherent plotting, deus-ex-machina denouements, a flexible attitude to historical and scientific fact and loud intrusive music are not failings of the post-2005 Who but actually the way of the programme - RTD's Who was a lot closer to old Who than people think, it just moved faster. Another thing I learned was that the crew has usually included a feisty, inquisitive teenage-or-a-little-older girl. The whole thing about the companions being weak and shrieky is a myth. They may have screamed a bit, as it was the cheapest way to raise the tension, and Who was always produced on about the same budget as the weather report, but in between the screams they tended to be the same kind of person as Rose or Amy. My personal favourite of these characters is Zoe, a tiny ball of bossiness whose hobby appears to be confusing computers so much they self-destruct.)
posted by Grangousier at 12:52 AM on June 2, 2011 [3 favorites]


Hmm.. I'm not sure I would include the death of Kamelion (with The Master's Tissue Compression Eliminator no less). Kamelion begged the Doctor to destroy him. And as an android, was he ever really alive?

BTW, there's a scene of Pertwee carrying a gun but no scene of him shooting.
posted by charlie don't surf at 5:48 PM on June 2, 2011


Just a heads-up to people with this thread in their Recent Activity: the other Who thread has been closed to new comments, so when the seventh episode airs in Britain this Saturday, it is highly likely that a bunch of eager Mefites are going to spill into this thread and will start discussing it here.

If you want to stay unspoiled, it's probably best to remove this thread from your activity feed now.
posted by painquale at 11:33 AM on June 3, 2011


painquale: "when the seventh episode airs in Britain this Saturday, it is highly likely that a bunch of eager Mefites are going to spill into this thread and will start discussing it here. "

Way to spoil how the thread ends, painquale.
posted by charred husk at 12:43 PM on June 3, 2011 [6 favorites]


After the previews for a Good Man, there's no way I'm not torrenting it.

Also, I think (I hope I hope) that my big prediction about River's parentage is right.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:07 PM on June 3, 2011 [1 favorite]


I remember reading an interview with Moffat when asked about cliffhangers in A Good Man Goes to War he said "It's going to be a very long summer." So I worry that this next episode will be mostly setup with no resolution.
posted by the_artificer at 4:18 PM on June 3, 2011


I'm hoping for some resolution and a giant massive cliffhanger.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:26 PM on June 3, 2011


Woah. Um. That was really, really good.

Torrent it, Americans. And stay off the internet until you've seen it.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 2:15 PM on June 4, 2011 [2 favorites]


Oh. My. Word.

*grins*

Hell yeah, Moffat.
posted by jaduncan at 2:31 PM on June 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Because people are lovely, twitter is abuzz with *the spoiler* repeated over and over again.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 2:38 PM on June 4, 2011


Who else cracked up when the next episode's title came on screen? A long summer indeed.
posted by Gordafarin at 2:48 PM on June 4, 2011 [9 favorites]


Seriously. If you aren't already torrenting it, you'll regret it.

My brother was very upset that Tumbler images were already spoiling it, and he saw those before watching the ep, so... really, look, it's online. If you let yourself be spoiled it's your own fault. It's in your power. Make it so.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:52 PM on June 4, 2011


I remember reading an interview with Moffat when asked about cliffhangers in A Good Man Goes to War he said "It's going to be a very long summer." So I worry that this next episode will be mostly setup with no resolution.

This is not a spoiler, unless you're insane, but to speak to my own personal reaction, I find it more of a long wait in the "what happens now!" sense, not in a Docteasing, no payoff sense. Moffat's always been pretty good with payoffs throughout a run I think.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:56 PM on June 4, 2011


We couldn't watch it live because we still don't have our TV, internet and so on plumbed in (we just moved) so there was a frustrating wait for us while iPlayer took one look at the billion people trying to watch Doctor Who on it and bailed for a while.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 3:01 PM on June 4, 2011


Who else cracked up when the next episode's title came on screen? A long summer indeed.

I actually LOLed. With physical noise and no typing and stuff. It was confusing.
posted by jaduncan at 3:04 PM on June 4, 2011


SPOILER:

River Song kills Dumbledore!
posted by weston at 3:29 PM on June 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Minor spoilers for this week's episode in this unbelievably pointless and stupid comment.

emmtee (i.e. Mrs ArmyOfKittens) drew a picture of what those guys from this episode look like under their clothes.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 3:58 PM on June 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


Who else cracked up when the next episode's title came on screen? A long summer indeed.

Also loled at a joke earlier... you know the one
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:01 PM on June 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


We couldn't watch it live because we still don't have our TV, internet and so on plumbed in (we just moved) so there was a frustrating wait for us while iPlayer took one look at the billion people trying to watch Doctor Who on it and bailed for a while.

Is iPlayer usually that bad?
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:07 PM on June 4, 2011


No, it's normally perfectly fine. I've literally never seen that error page before.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 4:08 PM on June 4, 2011


River Song has timelord mitochondrii? I'm also glad that my ER/Doctor Who slash-fic is keeping current.
posted by geoff. at 4:15 PM on June 4, 2011


And we were doing so well :-/
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 4:18 PM on June 4, 2011


Oh oops, I came here from the spoiler friendly thread that just closed.
posted by geoff. at 4:19 PM on June 4, 2011


Well, this one will become that, and actually, I'll be happy when it does, but I think we should give it a day or two first to let everyone who cares enough to care catch up before we start discussing details.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 4:21 PM on June 4, 2011


I must say, I'm finding the title to this thread very helpful in dissuading me from posting... welll. anything really.
posted by Grangousier at 5:07 PM on June 4, 2011


I've got the new Doctor Who spooling up now .... but I can't talk about it with anyone here :(
posted by Poet_Lariat at 6:13 PM on June 4, 2011


I'm a little disappointed in the spoiler, actually. It was the obvious resolution of a lot of plot threads, it was probably the most common piece of speculation on the net, and Moff's usually pretty good at overturning expectations. I dunno, it seemed too easy. Moff said we'd all be screaming and throwing things at the TV during the cliffhanger, but I doubt there's anyone out there who didn't suspect this or at least entertain the possibility.

Maybe he meant we'd be screaming at the title to the next episode. That is the best Dr. Who title yet.
posted by painquale at 6:51 PM on June 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


All right, new spinoff: Vastra the Silurian, her "maid" Jenny, and Jago & Litefoot from The Talons of Weng-Chiang fight aliens in 1890s London. Early ultra-ruthless Torchwood can be recurring enemies/reluctant allies.
posted by maqsarian at 7:16 PM on June 4, 2011 [22 favorites]


Just saw the second part of the Ganger episode, after loving the Gangers so much, why did the Doctor kill Ganger Amy? Was it because she was a spy? Did he just want to piss off Rory?
posted by drezdn at 7:19 PM on June 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I must say the title of the next episode is in the running for the best Doctor Who episode title ever.
posted by koeselitz at 7:28 PM on June 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Ganger Amy was newer flesh technology without the accidental conscious doubling side affects, so he simply cut the connection between Amy and the flesh allowing Amy to wake up in her own body. Since the flesh wasn't an actual double it had to disolve on the connection loss.
posted by a. at 7:29 PM on June 4, 2011 [2 favorites]


The Tardis Translation Matrix will never be able to unsnarl the curses I have for Moffat.

River Song has timelord mitochondrii?

No, she has midichlorians. Might as well throw that crap in there too, he put everything else in.
posted by charlie don't surf at 8:37 PM on June 4, 2011


The pay-off was a little meh for me to be honest, but the episode itself was fantastic.

Seconding the LOL at the "I don't know why you put up with me" line, which was a little embarrassing as I'm watching it in work.
posted by fullerine at 8:57 PM on June 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


SPOILERS SPOILERS DON'T READ WHAT I WRITE AFTER THIS IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS THIS IS A SPOILER WARNING ALSO SPOILERS!!

I loved this. Didn't understand all of it (for instance, what the Silurian was doing in Victorian London) but for the most part this was classic, and a brilliant answer to what people have been complaining about recently with the Doctor getting more and more willing to break his code. Because the two big "answers" we got this episode were completely expected, really (though in the case of both of them, I was kind of hoping they were red herrings, I really liked the way they were pulled off) I liked it that the bigger impact, in many ways, was that the Doctor really didn't have the right to call himself that anymore, the way he's been acting.

I'll need to watch it again, but this was well-threaded through the episode. After the cold open we start with the Marine couple (loved that line about them, by the way) discussing his warfaring accomplishments, but done in a way where we know the things they're talking about and don't think much of it at first, at least not in that light. And then with Laura (Nora? I had trouble hearing it) talking about joining the Marines because that was the only way to meet a great warrior - "Why do you think he's called The Doctor?" And the fact that the same issues of language then gave us the reveal as to River's identity (good call, PhoBWanKenobi) was just incredibly well-crafted.

I loved seeing Rory break down. I loved seeing people from previous episodes come back to repay their debts. I loved how foolish I felt when I realized I hadn't considered that Eyepatch Lady could pull the trick with The Flesh more than once. I just lvoed it.

SPOILERS OVER SPOILERS OVER BUT I'M SURE PEOPLE WOULD APPRECIATE SIMILAR WARNINGS ON ANY POSTS RESPONDING TO ME
posted by Navelgazer at 9:37 PM on June 4, 2011 [2 favorites]


*Spoilers-ish (but nothing you wouldn't have already seen in the trailers)*


Is that army the same one as The time of angels/flesh and stone? Because I'm finding that confusing.

Felt a bit meh about this episode (except for certain moments) but found myself liking it more on a second watch.
posted by prettypretty at 9:49 PM on June 4, 2011


Navelgazer, the Silurian said the Doctor "once found me in the London Underground, attempting to avenge my sisters on perfectly innocent tunnel diggers." So presumably, a similar situation to last season's Silurian story, except this tribe was hibernating below London.
posted by maqsarian at 10:16 PM on June 4, 2011


Laura (Nora? I had trouble hearing it)

I'm pretty sure she was called Lorna


98% CERTAIN OF CONTAINING EP8 SPOILERS (mostly evidence-ish based speculation from ep7, or red herrings), HIDE YOUR EYES! v






Lorna is a name popular in Scotland (maybe originates from there?), and her last name 'Bucket' is an object used to contain water... There are a few other clues (or beanplatings) that i'm too lazy to list.
posted by a. at 10:17 PM on June 4, 2011


STANDARD WARNING THOUGH I ALREADY TIRE OF IT MYSELF

prettypretty, I'm pretty sure it's the same army, yeah. Same uniforms, involved with River, called themselves Clerics.

I don't know what that implies, exactly. But then, we don't yet know why they are so dead-set on fighting The Doctor yet, either.

As for young Melody, from what we've seen, it doesn't bode well for them finding her very soon.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:51 PM on June 4, 2011


SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS!

After a day-long DW marathon to bring my gf up to speed about Doctor Who, we both thought A GOOD MAN GOES TO WAR was really unsatisfying, predictable and weirdly paced. I think that Moffat--perhaps as a backlash against his own clever plotting--finally wanted to write an Empire Strikes Back finale consisting purely of spectacle and filial plot twists--in other words, a Russell T Davis episode, though the episode reminded me more of the Star Wars Prequels and Doctor Who fan-fic. I don't want to be a hater, especially as I think this season has been amazing, but RTD would have actually done this better. Compare Waters of Mars and Journey's End: there, the critique of the Doctor is way more convincing, emotional, and relevant to the way we understand the Doctor and the ensemble cast. Here, who lives or dies isn't doesn't really change matter (Would the plot have changed if any of the totally new characters lived or died differently?), since the story was just spinning plates until we got to the TOTALLY OBVIOUS plot twist. The narrative arc was interestingly but badly plotted. Moffat essentially gave us what a Doctor Who episode might look like to the people involved in the story who aren't the Doctor or his companions: it would be all sudden endings, no exposition or contextualization. I understand he chose to do this to emphasize how traumatic the Doctor can seem and lull the audience into at a false sense of ease, but the result is the most extreme example of a larger problem with Moffat's run, which I've largely loved: you get patterns and hints, but things don't hang together in a larger context of consequences outside the two or three main characters.

None of the characters made any sense. We never really learn the specific motivations of Kovarian/Eyepatch Lady, the Headless Monks (Sith stand-ins; their killing of the gay Anglican Marine in the beginning, btw, has no bearing on the rest of the plot) or the militant Church, which had previously been one of the Doctor's allies last season. Unlike most Moffat villains, these characters are simply oppositional and evil. They're motivation is actually that they hate the Doctor! Matt Smith's acting seemed far more limited than usual and it wasn't obvious why the Doctor hadn't saved Amy much earlier, especially now that Moffat's been willing to make Doctor Who really about time travel. Rory was completely unbelievable as the Centurion, a Hollywood action movie type the script never really explained, and the plot basically forced Amy too have a different personality (i.e., sedately waiting around, Princess Amida-style). River basically functioned as a plot point rather than a person: she appears to give the Doctor a tongue-lashing for being an evil warrior (after his main mistake was letting everyone leave peacefully, without firing a shot!) and then switches to cozy tenderness. Also, the episode had a lot of cool-looking but totally under-developed characters--which was made worse by having the Sontaran and Silurian played by exactly the same actors as they were previously EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE DIFFERENT CHARACTERS--way to make things unnecessarily confusing! The episode does two things that RTD did awfully and Moffat rarely does: biological essentialism and handwavey explanations regarding biology.

From a more fun, fan speculation point of view, I guess this is where the episode leaves us. River is the little girl we see in the beginning of the season: if she's about five when she's in the Astronaut suit in 1969, then she'd be in her late forties when she presumably shoots the Doctor in 2011 assuming it's the same person--in other words, when she's near River's age and appearance. So, just as Amy correctly predicted that her baby would get Timehead, River's intimations that she'd kill the Doctor will be correct. And we understand why the Doctor taught her how to fly the Tardis and read Gallifreyan--out of Timelord identity politics, to put her in touch with her Gallifreyan heritage! In the second half of the season, I suspect we'll learn more about Lady Kovarian's motivations, the Silence and young River's role, and shift away from the baby to solving the Doctor's death. The next episode title is most likely a joke off the Doctor's realization that "Time can be rewritten"--if you're willing to change history to save your own skin (possibly through a Ganger), then why not kill Hitler? I think that some part of the solution might involve the Doctor possessing River's diary at the end of The Big Bang--he says he didn't read it, but as River tells us the same episode, he lies.
posted by johnasdf at 10:59 PM on June 4, 2011 [7 favorites]


made worse by having the Sontaran and Silurian played by exactly the same actors as they were previously EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE DIFFERENT CHARACTERS

Nah, Strax the Sontaran was played by a different actor, but because they needed him to look the same as all the other Sontarans, they just got an actor from the same cloning hatchery.
posted by painquale at 11:52 PM on June 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


My big question is: where did the Gallifreyan writing come from?
posted by painquale at 11:55 PM on June 4, 2011


What Gallifreyan writing? On the Doctor's baby cot? It's a Gallifreyan cot.
posted by maqsarian at 12:00 AM on June 5, 2011


My big question is: where did the Gallifreyan writing come from?

Presumably from the store that his Mom bought the crib from. Probably Timelords-Я-Us .
posted by Poet_Lariat at 12:01 AM on June 5, 2011 [3 favorites]


Yeah, so then, what did it say that made him twig onto the big secret? I thought the show was implying that it said the same thing that the patch did, and that's what caused his excitement... but if the writing was always there then that can't be.
posted by painquale at 12:14 AM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


It wasn't the galifreyan writing that tipped him off. It was the other thing, the same thing that helped Amy suss it out. I think where he was looking was a bit of misdirection by the writer/director.

Thanks, Navelgazer -- I'm missing the link in this episode between the army and River?
posted by prettypretty at 1:02 AM on June 5, 2011


Lol. My wife hasn't seen much of this season (or much of any of the new Who, actually). Sister-in-law niece are mad Whovians who come over to watch it coz we've got broadband and know how to use Usenet, though, so she sort of gets the drift.

SPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERS

Wife: So River Song is the Doctor's wife?
Them: Well, what happened is...
Wife: And Amy has a baby?
Them: Yes, but...
Wife: So River is Amy's baby?
Them: ....wait, what?


ENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILER

posted by obiwanwasabi at 1:24 AM on June 5, 2011


I'm missing the link in this episode between the army and River?

Well, River is apparently the point of their entire operation. Their stated goal is to use her as a weapon against the Doctor.

That said, I don't know if we can really say it's the same army. Their attitudes toward the Doctor are certainly different. Perhaps they're different sects of the same Church; the fat and thin Marines in this episode identify themselves as Anglican, and Octavian never identifies a specific religion. The Headless Monks' reference to "visiting armies of other faiths" implies that organized religion in general has become highly militarized by the 51st century, so it wouldn't be surprising for two human religions to have similar militaries, in the same way that both modern-day militaries and modern-day religions can appear highly similar to each other.

Derail: The Headless Monks' odd relationship with the proper militarized Church (required "conversion"/sacrifice of members of allied faiths, the fact that the alliance appears to be somewhat extraordinary ("Some of you have wondered why we have allied ourselves with the Headless Monks"), the Papal Mainframe's apparent authority over both) is something that I'd really like to see expanded upon, because I think the whole thing is fascinating. I fear I'll be disappointed, though.
posted by maqsarian at 2:27 AM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


It wasn't the galifreyan writing that tipped him off. It was the other thing, the same thing that helped Amy suss it out. I think where he was looking was a bit of misdirection by the writer/director.

Oh yeah, on rewatch, you're right. I was misdirected and then never got unmisdirected. I thought Amy brought the patch over with her.

LIGHT SPOILERS LIGHT SPOILERS ETC ETC

I like when lines get repeated from episode to episode and eventually become a thing, like "Basically: run." It looks like a new one is "I'm a nurse." (Rory said it at the end of Day of the Moon.) There's a cool healer vs. warrior theme running through parallel narratives in this episode, both with Strax and Rory, and with the Gamma forest legend of the Doctor. This is a thematic thread that will be picked up, I hope.

(I've never noticed that the TARDIS contained both a Doctor and a nurse.)
posted by painquale at 3:21 AM on June 5, 2011 [6 favorites]


And a patient ("The girl who waited": it's a pun)
posted by Grangousier at 3:30 AM on June 5, 2011 [8 favorites]


I know this is such a minor quibble, but why did River-in-the-orphanage have a photo of Amy happily smiling and holding her? When would that picture have been taken? How did Melody/River get it? Maybe I'm misremembering the picture.
posted by pineappleheart at 5:04 AM on June 5, 2011


Well, River is apparently the point of their entire operation. Their stated goal is to use her as a weapon against the Doctor.

Err... not sure how I missed that... it was staring me right in the face!
posted by prettypretty at 5:12 AM on June 5, 2011


They're motivation is actually that they hate the Doctor! [...] River basically functioned as a plot point rather than a person: she appears to give the Doctor a tongue-lashing for being an evil warrior (after his main mistake was letting everyone leave peacefully, without firing a shot!) and then switches to cozy tenderness.

The army's hate and River's "tongue-lashing" are part of the same point, which would appear to be a main point of this season - the Doctor creates enmity and animosity by behaving the way he does i.e. altering the paths of civilizations and thwarting the wills of powerful people. The question being, do his actions prevent more bad stuff than they inspire?

Rory was completely unbelievable as the Centurion, a Hollywood action movie type the script never really explained

Moffat's gone to great lengths to show why Amy is in love with Rory rather than the Doctor and a lot of it revolves around the fact that his unconditional love for her can make him a total badass, contrary to his normal nature. So that seemed fairly consistent to me.
posted by MUD at 5:24 AM on June 5, 2011 [3 favorites]


The Doctor saying he has many rules and then a split second later saying: "Good men don't need rules" made me smile.
posted by Mick at 6:16 AM on June 5, 2011 [2 favorites]


So hypothetical ten cents worth that might explain River Song's name on the cot in Gallifreyan (whilst it still being the Doctor's)..

She's his mother.

(Or the first time lord, or something like that. I'm just makin shit up is all).
posted by Ahab at 6:36 AM on June 5, 2011


So hypothetical ten cents worth that might explain River Song's name on the cot in Gallifreyan (whilst it still being the Doctor's)..

She's his mother.
But why would she kiss him (like, on his mouth!) in "The Day of the Moon" if she knew that?
I'm assuming that his mother is the one thing she's not.

I think he just saw the writing on the little embroidered leaf-thing. The Gallifreyan writing is, maybe, how she knows his name (in the Library episodes), I think?

There are still more questions than answers: was it River in the space suit who killed the Doctor? Does she remember? Or is there some kind of Silence forgetting magic at work there? Is the doctor the "good man" she killed? Is it Rory? Because it seemed like Rory was the "good man" who goes to war in this episode...? What is up with the Eyepatch Lady and the Anglican army in the 51st century (right?) and how does it relate to the Silence putting (presumably) little River in the space suit in 1969?
posted by SoftRain at 6:50 AM on June 5, 2011 [2 favorites]


drezdn: after loving the Gangers so much, why did the Doctor kill Ganger Amy?

a.: Ganger Amy was newer flesh technology without the accidental conscious doubling side affects, so he simply cut the connection between Amy and the flesh allowing Amy to wake up in her own body.

Agreed from 'so' on, a., but it isn't until the solar storm that the Gangers are inhabited by duplicate personalities/consciousnesses. So technically the Almost People Gangers are newer tech, and it's because Amy's of the older ganger/flesh tech that the Doctor can be assured that her consciousness will be reunited with her real body once he destroys her Flesh body. It's like what happens at the very beginning of The Rebel Flesh, where the Flesh body is dissolved in the acid but the consciousness inhabiting it shows up in their control room, having woken up in his original body and released himself from the harness. That same thing happened to Amy when the Doctor splooshed her Flesh body.

Now, SPECULATION FROM HERE FORTH! DO NOT READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

- The space suit is an (other) attempt by the eyepatch lady and cohorts to construct a TARDIS, except it functions both as a time-and-relative-distance-in-space vehicle AND as a prison cell for our pupa timelord, River. While she's in it, she's effectively driven around by whomever has her imprisoned and made to do horrible (HORRIBLE!) things.

- Eyepatch lady got her eyepatch when the Flesh Doctor removed her blood clot, after they escaped in a most improbable fashion from the acid factory.

- Not sure yet where the Silence fits back into this again (remember, they were there when the Doctor died too). They may have just been employed as tech developers by the folks running the militarized Church, eyepatch lady, wevs, to make a new TARDIS for River and/or the Flesh Doctor. They could be the plotters behind it all (but I doubt it).

posted by carsonb at 7:19 AM on June 5, 2011 [2 favorites]


Considering

a) It's Moffat
b) The Silent were largely absent from this episode

I'm assuming they're the major point of the second half of the series.
posted by fullerine at 7:28 AM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


Why couldn't River participate in the battle?
posted by geoff. at 7:45 AM on June 5, 2011


I assumed it was because she can't cross her own time-stream.
posted by nobody at 7:47 AM on June 5, 2011 [4 favorites]


If River participated and prevented the baby from being taken, how could the River Song we know exist to prevent the baby from being taken?
posted by pineappleheart at 7:57 AM on June 5, 2011 [5 favorites]


"So technically the Almost People Gangers are newer tech, and it's because Amy's of the older ganger/flesh tech that the Doctor can be assured that her consciousness will be reunited with her real body once he destroys her Flesh body"

In The Rebel Flesh once Cleaves realizes she's a Ganger The Doctor mentions that it was early Flesh (the early stages of the technology), so I'm assuming he's comparing her with the Flesh he has previously been studying, aka Amy.

So going with the notion that people are using Flesh as a tool rather than respecting it as a life form, an important step is to remove any chance of self animation.
posted by a. at 8:03 AM on June 5, 2011


Ah, I assumed she would have tried and failed to save herself from being taken.
posted by geoff. at 8:07 AM on June 5, 2011


You know, Terminator style time travel rules.
posted by geoff. at 8:08 AM on June 5, 2011


Also, I never thought I'd find an inter-species lesbian couple with overtones of a Master/Servant dynamic so awesome!
posted by Windigo at 8:12 AM on June 5, 2011 [6 favorites]


Is that army the same one as The time of angels/flesh and stone? Because I'm finding that confusing.

Not necessarily. In the Confidential episode Moffat says he's fascinated by the idea of religious armies, that it's an unusual aspect of modern society that we don't have them. So this army could be a different one than the one River joins up with against the Angels.
posted by scalefree at 8:34 AM on June 5, 2011


That episode was wonderful from beginning to end. I called it--I so totally called it (now we just have to wait for River to kill Rory).

Kudos to the people who have been saying from the beginning that the watery names were probably related.

Not necessarily. In the Confidential episode Moffat says he's fascinated by the idea of religious armies, that it's an unusual aspect of modern society that we don't have them. So this army could be a different one than the one River joins up with against the Angels.

Well, their uniforms are the same and both armies are referred to as "Clerics." Pretty sure they're the same.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:52 AM on June 5, 2011


I inferred that the reason The Doctor made Rory dress in the Centurion uniform (apart from his usual legend building) is to access the part of Rory that is a trained soldier (as opposed to a trained nurse), because he knee he'd be needing that.
posted by Grangousier at 9:00 AM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


I figure he just knew the value of having a known look. To strike fear in one's enemies. It's why Batman dresses like a bat, sort of, except more based on the legend than the costume itself.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 9:04 AM on June 5, 2011


Knew. Not knee.
posted by Grangousier at 9:07 AM on June 5, 2011


Yes, The Doctor has traded a lot on the legend, which is now coming back to bite him in the arse. My prediction for the second half is that the Doctor must die, or at least the myth of the Doctor must die, and that qmong other things River sacrifices her freedom in order to do that.

(It's already been established that she's in prison voluntarily, and stats there because of a promise she made. I'm assuming she 'kills' the Doctor, but then the expression on her face when she saw Rory in the prison...)
posted by Grangousier at 9:13 AM on June 5, 2011


I've been thinking a lot about the crib lead the Doctor to the reveal. My assumption is that the Doctor's thoughts went something like this in the scene: "River's pointing at the crib. That's my name. Maybe that's how River knows my name. She reads Gallifreyan. But I already knew that, so why is she telling me that? Maybe she's reminding me. I still don't know how she reads that, though. The only people who can read that language are the Time Lords, and I'm the very last. Except, wait. There's one more Time Lord now. Melody's a Time Lord. And if Melody were able to read Gallifreyan, and River can read Gallifreyan . . . " Etcetera.

That's the only way it makes sense to me.
posted by pineappleheart at 9:20 AM on June 5, 2011 [3 favorites]


That was...very interesting.

I think that this could have big implications for the show in general, honestly. It's building on the Water of Mars & the Pandorica vein, that the Doctor is not good, that although he acts as the Trickster, without a more powerful entity to trick he becomes this kind of puppetmaster bending the universe for his own ends.

I'm not really sure about what's going to happen to the doctor in the next half. He needs to become smaller, in some way. Personally, I think the best thing that might happen is for the TLs to come back, leaving him as an adventurer rather than a god.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:24 AM on June 5, 2011 [2 favorites]


In other news, I just ran across this concept art for a never-made 80's Doctor Who cartoon. Ooofta.
posted by Windigo at 9:34 AM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


And Maker/Instructable pages for that crib in three... two... one... could this be the first skiffy with tie-in nursery furniture?
posted by Devonian at 9:39 AM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


I've been thinking a lot about the crib lead the Doctor to the reveal.

It struck me at that moment that the more shocking reveal, and one which would really play on the bashful glee the Doctor shows us at that moment ("but we...[kissy faces]"), would be if River turned out to be a future regeneration of the Doctor himself. (Or, well, his mother; I suspect they were explicitly teasing at incest taboo crossing during the her-name-is-on-the-crib misdirection.)
posted by nobody at 9:48 AM on June 5, 2011 [3 favorites]


I thought the name on the crib was a variation on sweetie.

Does make it a little creepy though. Although let's face it, any sort of time-traveller relationship will have squicky moments.
posted by fullerine at 10:12 AM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


They've used the flesh twice now, and I hope they can put it away. The first time was fine because it followed a good episode introducing it and they gave clues something wasn't quite right with Amy. The second time felt a bit like a cheat but they admitted she fooled the doctor the same way twice. Any more would feel lazy.

Though it is fitting that one plot-cheat (the flesh) can be so easily defeated by their favourite plot-cheat (the sonic screwdriver).
posted by Gary at 10:41 AM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


So, no one noticed the Omegas in the background? Methinks we'll be seeing an old villan reintroduced...
posted by nonreflectiveobject at 10:52 AM on June 5, 2011


And if Melody were able to read Gallifreyan, and River can read Gallifreyan

I can see this, but the problem I have is that I don't know how the Doctor didn't become deeply suspicious immediately upon encountering the name Melody Pond, because within seconds I had already worked out that we had two names with music term body of water (with "melody" and "song" near homonyms for some usages) and drawn the likely conclusion.

(I know, I'd been partly primed by seeing a River who can safely shoot the hats off of heads miss the astronaut, and a little girl who could apparently regenerate, which the Doctor had not, and hearing "the only water in the forest is the river" but still...)
posted by weston at 10:57 AM on June 5, 2011


Nro, not that it disproves your guess, but worth pointing out that they used that same logo last time the church military showed up as well.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 11:05 AM on June 5, 2011


Some speculation here:

We know that the baby was created to be used as a weapon against the Doctor

We know that the baby is river song

We know that River song has been put in jail for, in her words, "killing the best man I ever knew"

So I speculate that River song kills the doctor next season (even though she already did when she was a baby in the Astronaut suit - wtf??) and possibly that this is Mat Smith's last season playing the Doctor.

Which would be a decent speculation if not for the fact that the producers and writers have always played fast and loose with continuity so you never know the heck will happen. It's like a time-whimey daytime soap opera - which is what I don't like about the new Who. One last speculation: when the Doctor's real name is revealed it will be "MacGuffin"
posted by Poet_Lariat at 11:27 AM on June 5, 2011


You know, just because Rory is highly motivated to rescue Amy, doesn't mean he can battle his way to the center of a Cyberman command ship and destroy the fleet, armed with only an iron sword.

So, no one noticed the Omegas in the background?

OmegaS plural? There was only one Omega. How many times are they going to have to destroy him? Twice so far, and unless he stays dead, no Timelords.

I sense the Time Wars are coming up. And that is going to fragment the Who plotline to oblivion. It's already fragmented beyond comprehensibility. And we already saw the Spaceman kill Hitler.
posted by charlie don't surf at 11:38 AM on June 5, 2011


I've been thinking a lot about the crib lead the Doctor to the reveal.

I had trouble with this too, but prettypretty explained it to me up above. The Gallifreyan writing on the side has nothing to do with the Doctor coming to learn River's secret. That was a fake-out by Moffat and the director (like "there's a man who's lived for hundreds of years who is coming for me," or "It's mine. ... The cot."). What River is asking the Doctor to read is Lorna's patch, which is lying face-side up in the cot.

I guess that if they didn't have some other red herring writing, it would have been too obvious from the get-go that River was pointing out the patch. Given that I'm not the only one who had trouble with this, it could have been handled less clumsily. Instead of River saying that the TARDIS can't translate Gallifreyan, she could have said, "no, not that. This," and pointed out the patch.

(Didn't the TARDIS translate the Gallifreyan that River carved into the cliffside at the beginning of time? Or was that some other language?)
posted by painquale at 11:39 AM on June 5, 2011


We know that River song has been put in jail for, in her words, "killing the best man I ever knew"

She's obviously in jail voluntarily. She's not there to keep her from breaking out, she's there to keep people from breaking in to get her and use her as a weapon.
posted by charlie don't surf at 11:41 AM on June 5, 2011 [5 favorites]


That was some other language - the Gallifreyan was burned into the home box on the Byzantium, and it was the Doctor who translated that.

They planted Alex Kingston in the Confidential saying there are secrets/reveals about the crib (specifically "how many children have slept in the crib"), but it's a bit of speculation more than I need at the moment.
posted by Grangousier at 11:44 AM on June 5, 2011


Who else cracked up when the next episode's title came on screen? A long summer indeed.

Best part of an otherwise scattered and dull episode.
posted by juiceCake at 11:56 AM on June 5, 2011 [2 favorites]


even though she already did when she was a baby in the Astronaut suit

Did she? You think she would have remembered that before she started shooting at herself. It will be interesting to see how that resolves.
posted by the_artificer at 12:03 PM on June 5, 2011


She did remember, sort of - after she'd finished shooting, she muttered "No, of course not" to her self.

And she could shoot the Doctor's hat off, but missed a bloody great astronaut...?
posted by Grangousier at 12:07 PM on June 5, 2011


I thought she did shoot the astronaut, but the bullets bounced off.
posted by stavrogin at 12:11 PM on June 5, 2011


I was a bit disappointed in the big reveal, but only because I felt like it was obvious, both because of the fandom speculation and because of the conservation of character aspect. On the other hand, I guess that means it was well-telegraphed for those of us who watch obsessively, which makes me less disappointed. I loved the supporting cast, though, and I want to see more of their stories. Aside: including the Weng-Chiang and Torchwood cross mentioned above, which I'd watch the shit out of, Torchwood-hate-on and all. And I really want to figure out what the deal with Eyepatch Lady and the Headless Monks and so on and so forth is; that, to me, is going to be the interesting part.

The pacing wasn't great (it was a bit jerky and there were a number of points where I was all "hey why don't you get a move on before a bad thing happens"). As a single episode, it was weak, but I'm concluding that, like it or not, you can't watch a lot of the Moffat episodes out of the context of the season arc and have them work nearly as well.
posted by immlass at 1:14 PM on June 5, 2011


Yes, The Doctor has traded a lot on the legend, which is now coming back to bite him in the arse. My prediction for the second half is that the Doctor must die, or at least the myth of the Doctor must die

I think you've got it. I predict the last lines of dialogue in this season will be some variant on the hoary old

"I'm The Doctor."

"The Doctor? Doctor who?"

to signify that The Doctor is anonymous and not miffic and whatnot anymore.

And then I hope the next season is lots of fun crazy adventures without a story arc, because that could be the biggest most exciting risk they could take and also I'm tired of de rigueur season long story arcs so very tired.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:26 PM on June 5, 2011 [2 favorites]


The thing is, as we know and the Doctor & Co. haven't quite sussed out yet, young Melody is still bound to have a hell of a childhood. She'll end up in an orphanage in the sixties, captured by the Silence, forced into the Spacesuit, and get herself to New York where she'll be on the verge of death before regenerating into something we don't recognize.

And I worry if Moffatt, who created River as an interesting hook to "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead" might have written himself into a corner showing us the "death" of a character who we now know is capable of regeneration.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:35 PM on June 5, 2011


I don't think he has, Navelgazer. There's no evidence yet that The Doctor knows she can regenerate at all. It's possible (albeit unlikely) that the kid has regenerated into NowRiver, and never told The Doctor.

More importantly, though, from the transcript of FotD:

DOCTOR: This is not a joke. Stop this now. This is gonna kill you! I'll have a chance, you don't have any!
RIVER: You wouldn't have a chance and neither do I!


The Doctor wasn't expecting to survive the download at all, wasn't expecting to be able to regenerate afterwards. Mind you, I expect that Moffat will resurrect River. Probably.
posted by coriolisdave at 6:48 PM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


Also, I adore the warrior/healer dynamic going on with every regular passenger aboard the TARDIS. Rory, with the greatest instincts to help, but with Amy as his greatest passion which can lead him into his Centaurian uniform. Amy, so hot-blooded and ready to fight, but with instincts towards finding peaceful solutions even the Doctor might not see. River, born and raised as a weapon, but with the wisdom to see what the Doctor is supposed to mean, and how he has failed. And The Doctor, now adrift in his own morality, trying to find his footing in what morality even means to someone who is like a God among the mortals he interacts with.

It's a hell of a thing, to get at what it means to call oneself "The Doctor," and mean it. And with the end they gave us, reaffirming that The Doctor is meant to be a pacifist, calling the next episode "Let's Kill Hitler," is brilliantly funny. Because who among us, if we were time travelers blessed with the proper knowledge, wouldn't kill Hitler? Hell, I laughed just because an old writing partner of mine had the words "Kill Hitler" taped to the top of his monitor. Of course you kill Hitler.

But if you're the Doctor? Doesn't it get a bit more complicated?

In addition, it is now my 5th MeFi anniversary, and I just want to say that I'm happy to be celebrating it on a Doctor Who thread, and that I reached a Favorite Power of Over 9000 just in time for it.

Fear my wrath!
posted by Navelgazer at 6:49 PM on June 5, 2011 [3 favorites]


Take it easy on the kid, SilverFox316; everybody kills Hitler on their first trip.
posted by haveanicesummer at 7:40 PM on June 5, 2011 [8 favorites]


I'm not convinced that River can fully regenerate until we see her doing so. Otherwise, it's just as likely that regeneration leads to healing, like what happened with Ten between "The Stolen Earth" and "Journey's End" where he heals then halts the transformation and redirects the remaining regeneration energy into his severed hand.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:29 PM on June 5, 2011


Rory's "Would you like me to repeat the question?"

While cheesy, was easily one of my favorite moments of this season.

That is all.
posted by quin at 8:37 PM on June 5, 2011 [3 favorites]


Wouldn't the Doctor's own deceased children and grandchildren possibly have slept in that cot?
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:13 PM on June 5, 2011


Also, c/o Reddit: Moffat on Usenet in 1995.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:18 PM on June 5, 2011 [9 favorites]


(Spoilers for people who still give a shit)

Just finished watching the highly original and exciting season finale where all the characters referenced throughout the season are magically necessary to all come together to fight The Greatest Threat to the Universe Ever™ oh and then that one character turns out to be that other character and Jesus Christ.

From the minute Amy said she was pregnant in the first episode of the season I said to myself "Huh, her name is Pond and there's also a OH DON'T YOU FUCKING THINK OF DOING THAT I WILL RAGEQUIT THIS SHOW SO HARD."

I cannot believe that Steven Moffat, who wrote some of the greatest episodes of the series, managed to do what no person in thirty years including Russel T. "Mary Sue Shags The Doctor" Davies has managed to pull off: making me find Doctor Who too fucking stupid to watch.

Someone let me know when they decide to stop making Buffy the Time Lord.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:40 PM on June 5, 2011


And with the end they gave us, reaffirming that The Doctor is meant to be a pacifist, calling the next episode "Let's Kill Hitler," is brilliantly funny. Because who among us, if we were time travelers blessed with the proper knowledge, wouldn't kill Hitler?

Well Genesis of the Daleks effectively tackled this, with Davros and the Daleks being galactic Hitler and Nazis.

If Moffat can remove all this super duper Jesus/Satan Doctor nonsense RTD is responsible for then that would be grand.
posted by juiceCake at 9:42 PM on June 5, 2011


I cannot believe that Steven Moffat, who wrote some of the greatest episodes of the series, managed to do what no person in thirty years including Russel T. "Mary Sue Shags The Doctor" Davies has managed to pull off: making me find Doctor Who too fucking stupid to watch.

I've had high hopes that Moffat could pull the series out of RTD hell, and I'd disagree that he's outdone RTD as I'd say a good lot of his episodes make DW too stupid and horribly bad to watch much less recommend. I long for the show to return to a serial format without a grand arc and like an ex, I just keep coming back because of it.
posted by juiceCake at 9:45 PM on June 5, 2011


Hey, reading Moffat's old Usenet posts is pretty entertaining.

He is anti-continuity and pro-Doctor-having-sex.

(Moffat had a hand in The Office? Was that through his wife?)
posted by painquale at 9:55 PM on June 5, 2011 [4 favorites]


Russel T. "Mary Sue Shags The Doctor" Davies

Just perfect. Thank you for this.
posted by nonliteral at 9:58 PM on June 5, 2011


I think people are forgetting how really and truly awful Russell T Davies was. [spoilspoilspoil] Moffat phoned it in this episode, yeah, because this was a setup episode. It's not a season finale, it's a midseason finale. And I still have high hopes for the next episode.
posted by koeselitz at 10:03 PM on June 5, 2011


My grades for this season so far:

The Impossible Astronaut: A-
The Day of the Moon: A
The Curse of the Black Spot: B-
The Doctor's Wife: A+
The Rebel Flesh: B+
The Almost People: A-
A Good Man Goes To War: B

What was interesting about the latest episode was the upending of the "fuck yeah Doctor!" rut the show had gotten into. I liked the tragedy of the failed mission, and I liked the humbling of the Doctor. I like the idea of the next season taking the Doctor away from being the warrior and into unknown territory.

What I didn't like about the episode was how little I connected emotionally with the idea of River being Amy's daughter. Seems sort of soap opera-y, or like an overly dense comic book canon thingummie. The gears are turning to see that River killed the Doctor at the lake, or maybe River kills Rory, or something.

I have faith that Moffat will build on this, but I won't lie that this mid-season finale was sort of disappointing. I loved the way the season-long arc in Series 5 played out. Series 6, on the other hand, seems a bit more insular and convoluted, without emotional payoffs that I respond to. I look forward to be proven wrong as the series unfolds.

Personally, I'd love to see a series-long arc where the Doctor is dealing not with a specific master plot, but rather with a specific set of questions he's posing to himself. Who is he? Why does he do what he does? This arc could see him swapping amongst companions, or even going solo as he had in the RTD's specials. (The specials weren't so great as episodes, but they were a great format for DW, and that format should be explored again.)
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:07 PM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


I think my favorite Moffat Usenet posts are the ones where he talks about the Time Lords. Very prescient! I wonder if he seeded the idea in RTD's head?

"If they really want to reboot the series why
don't they start by junking all that Time Lord rubbish anyway? I
always thought it was a lousy back story for the Doctor. Or am I
just being appallingly heretical? "

and

"Well he managed perfectly well for six years before the Time
Lords turned up being dead boring in stupid hats. How about
simply reverting to the original idea: that the Doctor's home has
been destroyed by some unspecified nasty, rotten aliens. Gives
him a nice motivation for bopping nasty, rotten aliens whenever
he finds them and for adopting Earth, its culture, and to a great
its history as his own.

My real reason for thinking this is a good idea is simply that
I've never able to believe Gallifrey as a place the Doctor could
ever have come from. It's one of the most lazily conceived
societies in the show's history (against stiff opposition) and
the Doctor has nothing remotely in common with any of the
inhabitants.

Now surely I've managed to be heretical *this* time?? "

posted by painquale at 10:36 PM on June 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


The Office (1996) not The Office (2001)
posted by pixie at 12:12 AM on June 6, 2011


It's not so much that River is Amy's daughter, but that Amy is The Doctor's mother-in-law. Which explains quite a lot.
posted by Grangousier at 2:50 AM on June 6, 2011 [3 favorites]


Honestly, from everything I've seen I think that Moffatt works much better as a writer than a lead writer - and the thing he needs most of all is a good editor. That was a good episode, but could have been tightened especially to do with the pacing. And the nonsense. Moffatt's episodes under RTD were stunning (for those of you who don't know, they were Empty Child/Doctor Dances, Girl in the Fireplace, Blink, and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead) - and his recent episodes may have been better than most of RTD's (especially the RTD specials/finales) but aren't in that league.
posted by Francis at 3:34 AM on June 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


Honestly, from everything I've seen I think that Moffatt works much better as a writer than a lead writer - and the thing he needs most of all is a good editor.

Well, RTD said that he didn't edit a word of Moffatt's stuff. I don't know if that was literally true though.

The Eleventh Hour is as good as his RTD episodes. I think it might be his best, personally. The Beast Below was such a letdown afterward....
posted by painquale at 4:13 AM on June 6, 2011


I think if you'll look back you'll find all the 'major' episodes in previous series have just as many cheesy/unbelievable moments as this one. Its family sci-fi designed for 10 year olds and 30 year olds, and if you're 30 you just have to look the other way when the cheesy bits happen; they're for the 10 year olds. Or, you just have to pretend to be 10 (which, incidentally, is the best way to enjoy Doctor Who)

Moffat ftw - is it fair to say he's plotting series around interesting character relationships (amy as bride, the doctors death) rather than macguffins (bad wolf)?
posted by memebake at 6:15 AM on June 6, 2011 [2 favorites]


I think my favorite Moffat Usenet posts are the ones where he talks about the Time Lords. Very prescient! I wonder if he seeded the idea in RTD's head?

If he did, it's cosmic justice that he's having to deal with the consequences. The Time Lords were absolute assholes most of the time and the Doctor's occasional dealings with them made him a better man if only by reminding him not to be such an asshole to less powerful beings himself. Now with all this "I am the Doctor and I'm an utter badass because I knocked off the Time Lords!" bullshit, he's become in large part what he hated about them. I'm excited about the rest of the season because it looks like it will deal with another one of the things I really didn't care for about the reboot continuity. I don't care whether we have actual other Time Lords or not, but I will not at all be sorry to get rid of things like the punishment of the aliens at the end of Family of Blood. No wonder the rest of the universe is terrified enough of him to raise a human weapon to destroy him!
posted by immlass at 7:15 AM on June 6, 2011 [2 favorites]


I love how the Doctor varies from being a noble hero (most of the time) to a vindictive prick (viz. Family of Blood, or the treatment of "Captain Runaway"). Keeps things interesting.

The loss of the other Time Lords has been a good thing in general, because that mythos was never really engaging, but it does create a problem for the show in that now the Doctor is essentially a lone demigod who can appear anywhere and anywhen. The show then has to try twice as hard to keep him in check and to keep him from simply operating in God Mode (if not also Noclip) all the time.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:37 AM on June 6, 2011 [3 favorites]


I didn't really feel that the Doctor was brought lower than he's ever been after being at his highest. That's a bit of a nit-pick, but the emotional impact and devastation I was expecting were totally absent.

'I think you've got it. I predict the last lines of dialogue in this season will be some variant on the hoary old

"I'm The Doctor."

"The Doctor? Doctor who?"

to signify that The Doctor is anonymous and not miffic and whatnot anymore.

And then I hope the next season is lots of fun crazy adventures without a story arc, because that could be the biggest most exciting risk they could take and also I'm tired of de rigueur season long story arcs so very tired.'


You! You quit being so blood clever right this very instant!
posted by Eideteker at 7:52 AM on June 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


I like season long arcs, as long as they're good. I'm still in suspense as to whether or not this arc will wholly pay off, but I still basically like it, my reservations notwithstanding.

This season has seemed much more dominated by its long arc than any other in the past, which does indeed take away from the "hey, we're on some weird planet, let's go mucking about" aspect of the show that works so well.

I didn't really feel that the Doctor was brought lower than he's ever been after being at his highest. That's a bit of a nit-pick, but the emotional impact and devastation I was expecting were totally absent.

I don't know - letting people die so that Amy's baby could live, only to have the baby melt into a puddle in her own loving arms - seems pretty bad. He's not quite the laughingstock of the universe, but his relationship with his companions is going to be rough, and his confidence will be kept in check for the time being. I dug that part.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:04 AM on June 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


There was also Lorna Bucket, who might be emoted about in the future (especially when The Doctor actually meets her properly), but in this episode the way the issue she represented was shown was remarkably restrained - she was obviously a Companion (in spirit) - feisty young woman, who runs off to find The Doctor and have adventures who ... is immediately killed. The next Amy / Sarah Jane / Zoe / Tegan, only not.

"They're always brave."

I expect that added to The Doctor's guilt rather more than it appeared at the time.

I can see that the problem with this series for a lot of viewers (apart from the fact that each episode seems to have come from a completely different series, which I quite like, but I understand would annoy a lot of people) is that most of the episodes weren't designed to be watched so much as rewatched, and a lot of details come out with multiple viewings. The amount of information that's been packed into the seven episodes so far (or the six-and-a-half for those of us who are still a bit sniffy about the pirates) is astonishing. The criticism that it's not so much a TV series as a DVD boxed set waiting to happen is not unjustified, but the wonder of iPlayer has smoothed that out for me.

To be honest, as I've mentioned before, I appear to be the target audience for this series, and am a total fanboy-in-thrall to it. I accept that that's not a very good way to make money - there isn't much crossover between popular (or even fan) taste and mine.

This is how the show is this year, next year it will be different (perhaps The [next] Doctor gallivanting around with the previous incarnation of River Song), and the year after that no doubt Steven Moffatt will be in a rest home with a nervous disorder and someone else will be making the show completely differently. That's a feature of the programme I rather enjoy.
posted by Grangousier at 8:21 AM on June 6, 2011 [2 favorites]


I didn't really feel that the Doctor was brought lower than he's ever been after being at his highest. ...

My interpretation was that a bunch of this stuff (Gamma Forests, height of the Warrior doctor, provocation of the Church, his "fall") could be in his future.
posted by ravelite at 8:35 AM on June 6, 2011 [2 favorites]


It would be amusing if the we see the Warrior Doctor stuff from the Gamma Forests in a context where the Doctor was trying to run away from or fight his way through something that he's doing in order to prevent the fallout from A Good Man Goes to War. Now there's a paradox I can get behind.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:41 AM on June 6, 2011 [3 favorites]


It would be amusing if the WAY, that is. Herp.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:44 AM on June 6, 2011


I don't know - letting people die so that Amy's baby could live, only to have the baby melt into a puddle in her own loving arms - seems pretty bad.

Don't forget, on top of all this, he learns that he has made the term, "doctor," mean weapon and other bad things on a host of planets -- that he is deluding himself about being a healer and is actually a ghoul, a terror to so many peoples of the world. And he learns that, because of this, that little innocent baby was stolen so it could be made into a weapon, as well.

I also agree with ravelite that there's probably more downfall to come.
posted by meese at 8:45 AM on June 6, 2011 [6 favorites]


Good point, meese. It's also interesting how all this fooferaw over Doctor meaning "warrior" as opposed to "healer" butts up against the idea of Rory as another healer-cum-warrior, as well as the woeful fate of the Sontaran wet nurse. The Doctor is disappointed (and in denial) that he has chosen war over healing; the Sontaran is basically the mirror image of this. Rory strikes a powerful middle ground here, which points to him maybe becoming the ultimate hero of the season.

River being Amy's daughter was one of the smaller and less interesting aspects of this past episode. Thinking more about it, I'm growing more confident that we'll get some good payoff from the next half of the season.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:52 AM on June 6, 2011 [4 favorites]


it's not so much a TV series as a DVD boxed set waiting to happen

That's how I felt about this season of Community. Like you, that's exactly the kind of TV I enjoy; like you, I don't expect I'm in any kind of commercially-viable demographic.

I want them to hurry up and finish filming the abomination that the new Torchwood is surely going to be and bring back Captain Jack. Barrowman and Smith would have amazing chemistry.
posted by Zozo at 9:54 AM on June 6, 2011 [2 favorites]


SPOILER SPECULATION ATTN. SPOILER SPECULATION

Morpeth Jetsan (Flesh co.)=Phantom Jester, which I thought was rot until they called the Doctor a phantom not once but TWICE in this episode--Colonel Runaway called him that the first time, and then the Doctor said it again.

A company designed to ultimately toy with the Doctor? Or a company designed by the Doctor to toy with everyone else?
posted by laconic titan at 11:32 AM on June 6, 2011 [3 favorites]


it's not so much a TV series as a DVD boxed set waiting to happen

To be fair, this could describe most good tv these days. The writers are well aware that only a very small percentage of the number of viewings of their episodes will be week-to-week anymore, and so feel free to write for the geeks and superfans who get off on little clues and season-long arcs and such. By the way, this tendency also means that things like the Pirates episode aren't nearly as bad in the DVD set. I mean, it's not good, but it's not "Daleks in Manhattan" either. It's just that when we first saw it it was coming after "Day of the Moon" and we were going to have to wait a week for more DW and if that's all we were getting then it sucked that much harder.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:53 PM on June 6, 2011


Grangousier: “There was also Lorna Bucket, who might be emoted about in the future (especially when The Doctor actually meets her properly), but in this episode the way the issue she represented was shown was remarkably restrained - she was obviously a Companion (in spirit) - feisty young woman, who runs off to find The Doctor and have adventures who ... is immediately killed. The next Amy / Sarah Jane / Zoe / Tegan, only not.”

Or Rose. As much as I loathe remembering her, one thing that struck me about this episode was that the Doctor told her to "run!" when he met her – which was the same thing he said to Rose when he met her. Apparently the Doctor says that to a lot of people.
posted by koeselitz at 1:33 PM on June 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


The loss of the other Time Lords has been a good thing in general, because that mythos was never really engaging...

Well such things are subjective of course but I found the loss of the Time Lords and indeed the entire Time War schtick to be a horrible thing as the mythos of the Time Lords was very engaging. Tom Baker's performance in the Deadly Assassin was one of his best.

I can see that the problem with this series for a lot of viewers (apart from the fact that each episode seems to have come from a completely different series, which I quite like, but I understand would annoy a lot of people) is that most of the episodes weren't designed to be watched so much as rewatched, and a lot of details come out with multiple viewings.


That's not a problem I have with the series at all. It's just that they are so melodramatic and dull and cheap and commercial that watching them over again isn't an attractive prospect. It's wonderful that they have money and support from fans. It's just too bad they have to go and make a show that has the quality of an American television show on a major rather than minor network. Moffat's stuff, at least some of it, has been good but the arc stuff is just gamey and gimmicky. Arcs can be done much better.

The amount of information that's been packed into the seven episodes so far (or the six-and-a-half for those of us who are still a bit sniffy about the pirates) is astonishing. The criticism that it's not so much a TV series as a DVD boxed set waiting to happen is not unjustified, but the wonder of iPlayer has smoothed that out for me.

I haven't heard that but I don't really understand the difference between a TV series and a DVD box set.

To be honest, as I've mentioned before, I appear to be the target audience for this series, and am a total fanboy-in-thrall to it. I accept that that's not a very good way to make money - there isn't much crossover between popular (or even fan) taste and mine.

I imagine there are many target audiences. I'd argue that the show is all about being popular now. It's not much better than fan fiction and RTD's episodes were worse than fan fiction.
posted by juiceCake at 1:47 PM on June 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


As much as I liked the new characters introduced in this episode, I agree with what was said earlier about them having zero impact on the plot. If they'd been cut, there might have been time to build up some emotion about Amy and Rory having a baby, or the identity of that baby, or the Doctor questioning what he's become. As it is, there was so much exposition to get through that the second half felt like someone was working their way through a checklist.

Establish that Doctor speaks 'baby' - check
Question the Doctor re: baby - check
Question the Doctor re: recent actions - check
River explains why Doc's recent actions not great - check
River tells Doctor who she is - check
River tells Amy & Rory who she is - check... and we're done. Phew!

I hope the payoff for this is good. I like the kill Hitler/ Doctor who? idea most, but I'd be satisfied if we just got a coherent account of River's story that matches up to the amount of angst she feels about it. Yet I read somewhere that Moffat said he'll explain River next season, not this one? Damn.
posted by harriet vane at 8:56 PM on June 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


Rewatched AGMGTW. Liked it much more the second go-round. I'll hold off final judgment until we see how the second half of the series plays out. It's pretty obvious that this is a set-up episode, not a pay-off episode.

I wonder if we'll see these Marines depicted in increasingly sympathetic ways. It might become clear by series' end that they have every reason to believe that they're the good guys. I also wonder if seemingly extraneous characters like the gay Marines might play a larger part later on.

I haven't heard that but I don't really understand the difference between a TV series and a DVD box set.

TV series play out well being watched week-to-week in a serial format, whereas a DVD box set is meant to be watched in quick succession. Watching a DVD box set over a period of months can be frustrating, because it's much less clear how the episodes are interacting with one another, especially when the showrunner is being tricky-dicky with clues and timey-wimey and whatnot.

Series Six is the first time I've watched DW week by week. It's a little frustrating, and not just because I want instant gratification or because of the cliffhangers. It's obvious that we're being parceled out bits of story in ways intentionally meant to misdirect and surprise us, as opposed to Classic Who, which generally just played the story out in bite-sized but linearly-deployed chunks, Trial of a Time Lord notwithstanding.

For better and for worse - and in my opinion, for the better - DW has become a puzzle show like LOST, except better-written, better-plotted, and with a better sense of humor.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:58 AM on June 7, 2011 [5 favorites]


...that said, I wouldn't mind taking a break from the puzzle aspect in favor of more standalone two- or three- or four-part serials. Puzzles are fun, but a huge part of what's been fun about DW is how the show can change genre and focus on a dime. Say what you will about RTD, at least he knew that much.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:02 AM on June 7, 2011 [2 favorites]


Another compelling aspect of the Lorna Bucket interaction was that if the Gamma Forest is in his future, then he lied to her as she died to make her feel better. As her told her "of course I remember" when she asked about it. Her as a fastforward doomed version of a companion is really a very, very interesting case. Young girl, strange name, "girl who waited," "they're always brave," "the doctor always lies." More and more I get the feeling that even when Moffat doesn't appear to hit it out of the park, he's hitting a sacrifice fly.

Often I would agree with those who just want great individual episodes, or two-parters, but with Moffat in charge we get someone who cares about a real payoff and doesn't appear to just be winging it. He may not always succeed, but I'll take his attempts over what most writers would put out if they completely succeeded. To some extent he may be hindered by not just being able to writer two amazing episodes in a season, and he certainly hasn't blown me away with his choices in writers for non-Moffat episodes (Gaiman aside). But really, I'm an unabashed Moffat fan, and I look forward to Doctor Who under his wing in a way I do very few things.
posted by haveanicesummer at 9:39 AM on June 7, 2011 [3 favorites]


Loved it loved it loved it. Great conclusion to what I thought was an iffy beginning. Had to watch this one without my 10yro daughter (she's on a "No TV" punishment) and I just lapped it up. That Silurian and her chambermaid are just so fantastically interesting. I mean, they're just about too interesting to be bit players, aren't they? They've GOT to be the set up for a spin-off. The big reveal didn't feel like a shocker to me, but it felt... big enough. If that makes any sense. The line about the next episode title, said in that voice, with the big text filling the screen were just about the best, funniest thing I've seen on TV in a long time.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:56 AM on June 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


TV series play out well being watched week-to-week in a serial format, whereas a DVD box set is meant to be watched in quick succession. Watching a DVD box set over a period of months can be frustrating, because it's much less clear how the episodes are interacting with one another, especially when the showrunner is being tricky-dicky with clues and timey-wimey and whatnot.

This is news to me. I had no idea DVD box sets were meant to be watched in quick succession rather than at the discretion of the owner of the DVDs. I had always thought there was no meant to be viewed thing at all, other than, on demand at your convenience. I still don't believe a show is made for this dynamic over weekly or shorter or longer intervals, particularly if the show respects it's audience. But then there's the rub, RTD had no respect for the audience. Moffat seems to be going the Ron Moore path from excellence to less than excellence.
posted by juiceCake at 10:23 AM on June 7, 2011


Another compelling aspect of the Lorna Bucket interaction was that if the Gamma Forest is in his future, then he lied to her as she died to make her feel better. As her told her "of course I remember" when she asked about it

That's how I prefer to read that scene, too... But The Doctor says something like, "we ran together." It's vague enough that he could just be making it up (is there anyone The Doctor doesn't run with?), but it's also specific enough to her memories that it seemed like he actually knew.
posted by meese at 1:25 PM on June 7, 2011


I thought the point of "we ran together" is that that's true of anyone who meets the Doctor for very long. He was fishing for a clue. He really had no idea who she is.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:50 PM on June 7, 2011 [4 favorites]


I thought the point of "we ran together" is that that's true of anyone who meets the Doctor for very long. He was fishing for a clue. He really had no idea who she is.

It is much worse than that. Remember, in the Gamma Forest the word "Doctor" means "warrior" - she came to meet a great warrior. How likely is it that she did the typical companion running with warrior Doctor? In the end she probably knew he was lying.
posted by charred husk at 6:55 PM on June 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


But she says herself (to Amy or the gay married Anglican Marines, I can't recall exactly) that she ran a lot with him.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:08 PM on June 7, 2011


I thought it was great. Although I'd pondered the River/Pond name similarity before I was surprised by the twist. And the scene of the flesh baby going all gooey freaked me out.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 7:57 PM on June 7, 2011


That Silurian and her chambermaid are just so fantastically interesting. I mean, they're just about too interesting to be bit players, aren't they? They've GOT to be the set up for a spin-off.

Not necessarily by intent. They're the product of good writing, casting, and acting choices. Now that we've seen them on screen, perhaps they will be, some day.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:57 PM on June 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


A Silurian would make for an interesting companion. It might overly restrict the types of story you could do though.
posted by painquale at 10:49 PM on June 7, 2011


Oh, one other thing. Is it just me or does eyepatch lady look a lot like current River Song? (Just me? OK.)
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 6:16 AM on June 8, 2011 [3 favorites]


Pretty much just you. Eyepatch lady is Frances Barber, a veteran and highly respected British actor. I expect she'll have a more prominent part to play in the future.
posted by Grangousier at 6:32 AM on June 8, 2011


Matt Smith is coming back.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:54 AM on June 8, 2011 [4 favorites]


That Silurian and her chambermaid are just so fantastically interesting. I mean, they're just about too interesting to be bit players, aren't they? They've GOT to be the set up for a spin-off.

I was sure I'd go online afterwards and find out they were existing characters from one of those Big Finish audio series, or a spinoff comic or something that I'd never bothered to check out. Really seemed to be coming from a firmly established place.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:29 PM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]


I was sure I'd go online afterwards and find out they were existing characters from one of those Big Finish audio series, or a spinoff comic or something that I'd never bothered to check out. Really seemed to be coming from a firmly established place.

Timey-Wimey. Where's the fun if you can't have references to characters who haven't been written yet?
posted by mikelieman at 1:35 PM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]


A couple of things that crossed my mind just now:

The "new" characters were an analogue of this season's TARDIS crew Amy::Lorna; Rory::Strax; River::Vastra.

The Doctor is locked out of his own "glorious battle" - he's not even in the room - the initial victory and surrender isn't the battle of Demon's Run, the fight with the Headless Monks is, and he's not even there.

There's an echo in The Doctor's joyful spinning when the Spitfires attack, of the bit at the end of Day of the Moon where he's play-shooting his sonic screwdriver, while River is killing Silents with her real gun. As with the Colonel Runaway speech, he's getting carried away, addicted to his power, which (it must be said) is the power of bullshit. He's the greatest bullshitter in the universe, and people get into terrible trouble when they begin to believe their own bullshit.

A lot of the emotional stuff is played fairly small, and there's relatively little emoting - a lot of stuff is bottled up. I like that. I find emoting doesn't play well on repeat viewing, but the resonances of things like Amy accepting that the theft of the child isn't The Doctor's fault, but nonetheless won't let him touch her build with repetition. I don't know whether these moments are a deliberate policy, but there are so many of them throughout the series that I suspect they must be. A lot of the pleasure comes from putting things together.

And when you put them together, the emotions are actually big: Despite all the banter, the crew are frightened, perhaps desperate people - Amy with her secret guilt over Rory; Rory with his nagging feelings of inadequacy; The Doctor trying to chase a lucky streak the size of a galaxy, hoping he won't be found out; River imprisoned, not so much physically (not at all physically, really) as trapped in the promise she has made that, despite the fact that she knows exactly what is happening, she can't let on, pretending her parents and lover are almost strangers, as she watches her life evaporate into memories that she can never, ever share with anyone but her little blue book.

(Look at the time... well past my bedtime!)
posted by Grangousier at 5:25 PM on June 8, 2011 [15 favorites]


They said Matt Smith will be back, but nothing about Karen Gillan. Deal not done yet, or plot point?
posted by Mick at 5:11 AM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]


I did figure this must be the last season for Amy and Rory, new baby and all...especially with the Silence telling Amy that her part would soon be over.

Both Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill have been slipping up about it in interviews and are scheduled for new projects during what would be the filming for next season.
posted by laconic titan at 8:32 AM on June 9, 2011 [2 favorites]


Really seemed to be coming from a firmly established place.

Yeah exactly. I still haven't gotten around to watching the first (Ecclestone) series of the new Who, and I was sure they were a throwback to that season or something. Just so much subtext crammed into a handful of lines of dialogue.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:51 PM on June 9, 2011


Huge Neil Gaiman Who Q & A
posted by Artw at 10:08 PM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]


He's the Doctor, he does what he does for reasons too vast and terrible to relate.

Man, Moffat is awesome. If you ever find yourself editing Neil Gaiman's work and want him to agree with the changes, just outwrite him. Easy.

I was told there were already some creepy houses in the series, and I liked the idea of a creepy planet more.

What's he talking about here? The Lodger?
posted by painquale at 10:45 PM on June 9, 2011


Or the orphanage from Day of the Moon. That place was creepy as shit.
posted by maqsarian at 2:41 AM on June 10, 2011 [1 favorite]


House was the creepy planet, no?
posted by scalefree at 7:58 AM on June 10, 2011


The line about the next episode title, said in that voice, with the big text filling the screen were just about the best, funniest thing I've seen on TV in a long time.

OK, when I wrote that I would have sworn that there was big, sonorous, British-accented narration to go along with the on-screen graphics, but when I watched it again with my daughter tonight the was none. I think the Silence were involved.

I should also add that she literally gasped when River Song's identity was revealed -- a thoroughly effective surprise twist for her, anyway.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:19 PM on June 10, 2011


So he hooks up with someone kinda raised as his daughter. Hooray for space-Woody Allen.

I like how all the Star Wars references set us up for the revelation at the end but both the references & the revelation felt a bit cheesy.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 4:38 AM on June 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


By trapping River in the computer he prevented her regeneration. It's horrific, and I wonder if 11 will undo it.
I think the odd thing for a new viewer is how meta Doctor Who is, how concerned if is with his power and legacy. Other serialized shows have a few years worth of stories. The Doctor has been around as long as my parents, so from that standpoint having plots about his legend makes sense. Its as if Captain Kirk was still flying the Enterprise. He'd be beyond legendary, yet still alive. It would be weird, and the show has to deal with that. But new viewers would say 'why are there plots about having kids all across the galaxy?

Speaking of, in the Futurama episode with Melvar the Star Trek fan, he makes Shatner say 'My ship, who I love like a woman...'

Saw that again after The Doctor's Wife and it was funnier.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:11 AM on June 11, 2011


I want them to hurry up and finish filming the abomination that the new Torchwood is surely going to be and bring back Captain Jack. Barrowman and Smith would have amazing chemistry.

Seems like The Doctor should have called him for the battle of Demon's Run.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:37 AM on June 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


By trapping River in the computer he prevented her regeneration. It's horrific, and I wonder if 11 will undo it.

I don't see how that's the case. She died first; he only put the ghost of her consciousness in the computer afterward. Saving a recording of her consciousness presumably wouldn't prevent a regeneration. And the reason she handcuffed 10 and took his place was because it was something that would prevent a Time Lord from regenerating. They mentioned this in the show. Anyway, trapping her in the computer was 11's idea. He gave her the screwdriver. (Or maybe 12 or some later incarnation did.)
posted by painquale at 7:17 AM on June 11, 2011


Could 11/Flesh11 have given River his screwdriver because he knew he was about to go and get killed in 1969 anyway?
posted by laconic titan at 9:49 AM on June 11, 2011


Cool Rory doesn't look at explosions...
posted by homunculus at 6:14 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


They've really given up on The Doctor not killing, haven't they? Unless cybermen don't count...

I'm very glad I was largely unspoiled for that - I'm not usually that worried, but that benefited from the element of surprise.

Also, that was filthy.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:02 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


Amelia Pond is Stephen Moffat. He loved the Doctor as a kid, watching the universe through the crack in his wall (the TV). The Doctor went away, but he came back and the now-adult Stephen is travelling with him. And he recreated his universe from his memories of The Doctor.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 7:01 AM on June 13, 2011 [11 favorites]


Amelia Pond is Stephen Moffat. He loved the Doctor as a kid, watching the universe through the crack in his wall (the TV). The Doctor went away, but he came back and the now-adult Stephen is travelling with him. And he recreated his universe from his memories of The Doctor.

Nah, Amy is really RTD. All the same stuff is true of RTD, but he's the one who keeps wanting to get in the Doctor's pants whether the Doctor returns his feelings or not.
posted by immlass at 8:53 AM on June 13, 2011 [2 favorites]


Amelia Pond is Stephen Moffat. He loved the Doctor as a kid, watching the universe through the crack in his wall (the TV). The Doctor went away, but he came back and the now-adult Stephen is travelling with him. And he recreated his universe from his memories of The Doctor.

OOF LiB, I really like that.

After about a week away from the internet, we finally saw the most recent episode yesterday. My SO hated the big reveal; I loved it. All she could say was: "Goddamnit, Moffat is LOST-ing."
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 10:12 AM on June 13, 2011


Just realized that River was created by Moffat, like Amy gave birth to her...
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:01 PM on June 13, 2011


XQUZYPHYR: "(Spoilers for people who still give a shit)

Just finished watching the highly original and exciting season finale where all the characters referenced throughout the season
"

Um... none of the characters called in for the favor had been seen until that very episode.
posted by ShawnStruck at 4:58 AM on June 14, 2011


The pirate, the blue guy, and the dogfighters were bringbacks.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:59 AM on June 14, 2011


So were the lizard-dudes!
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 8:21 AM on June 14, 2011


Well, that specific lizard dudess was new. And kind of awesome. I want that story instead of the crappy one we got last season.
posted by Artw at 11:26 AM on June 14, 2011 [1 favorite]


Madame Vastra fanart.

(permalink to Mark Watches comment, takes ages to load on my machine but gets there eventually; contextless link to image on tinypic.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:48 AM on June 14, 2011


we already saw the Spaceman kill Hitler

That was my thought about that title too: Hitler = the Doctor's "fearsome warrior" aspect.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:53 AM on June 14, 2011


Confirmed: No Full Season of Doctor Who in 2012

Cut down season in order to go big for the 50th Anniversary the year after
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:56 PM on June 14, 2011


Dear BBC - please make sure continue to exist into 2013.
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on June 14, 2011


Alt confirmation article with more links.

I'd be more comforted by having a proper press release, rather than a tweet from BBC Merseyside's Religious Editor on some comments by BBC1's Controller, later confirmed by a BBC Entertainment Correspondent's tweets.

Still, any new Doctor Who is better than none, though many will disown it if it turns out to be totally American.
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:36 PM on June 14, 2011


And this is more honest than what SciFi did with BSG.
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:37 PM on June 14, 2011


ZeusHumms: “Still, any new Doctor Who is better than none, though many will disown it if it turns out to be totally American... And this is more honest than what SciFi did with BSG.”

American? Huh? What are you talking about? I can't see anything in any of these links about that.
posted by koeselitz at 9:33 PM on June 14, 2011


That changes the implications of Karen Gillan and Arthur Darville both accidentally revealing that they're going on to work on other shows next year. We might still have Amy and Rory.
posted by painquale at 11:04 PM on June 14, 2011


American? Huh? What are you talking about? I can't see anything in any of these links about that.

I was referring to the 1996 movie, produced for Fox in the US, lone source of footage for Eight.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:54 AM on June 15, 2011


I've been having bandwidth constraint issues so I JUST watched this episode last night, and then watched it again this morning in bits and pieces when I was supposed to be doing work.

Man.

Fuck y'all who didn't like it.

Karen Gillan was just brilliant this episode, and we've seen Rory really come into his own as a character this episode. I really didn't like how Moffat kept playing with ambiguities regarding whether Amy truly loved Rory or the Doctor more, and even if Amy's speech to Melody was calculated as another fake-out, I think it's clear that the Doctor will always be a myth that you dream about as a little girl, but that Rory is hers, forever.

Favourite moments:

- The expression on the Doctor's face when he realizes when River was conceived
- "You're so Scottish."
- "That's an entirely different birthday."
- "But that means...we...[kissy noises]."
- "Melody Williams, that's a history teacher. Melody Pond...that's a superhero." (How very prescient.)
posted by Phire at 1:48 PM on June 15, 2011 [1 favorite]


Well, I was right about the big reveal and it was even more ho-hum than I'd imagined. So, to move to something more interesting: The Doctor obviously didn't really die in 1969 (or if he did, it will handwaved-away somehow). But what if he decides to let the rest of the universe think he's dead and continue traveling anonymously? Then the show could get away from the torturered, X-Files-style metanarratives and let the Doctor and his friends have some fun romps on alien planets. It would be a nice change, to be honest.
posted by orrnyereg at 11:33 AM on June 16, 2011


juiceCake: RTD had no respect for the audience.

What do you mean by this?


Re: Prof. River Song getting "trapped" in the Doctor Moon by 10nant: She wouldn't have regenerated. Time Lords can die for good if they are sufficiently injured in such a way that prevents them from starting the regeneration cycle: see The Master/Harold Saxon's first death, see also the assassination of the President during Tom Baker's run. See also, of course, The Impossible Astronaut.

Not sure what people are talking about when they wonder if Flesh11 could have given a sonic screwdriver to River. At least for now, there is no Flesh11 -- he got liquified at the end of The Almost People.

Question: Have we seen Commander Strax before? I don't think so, but I may be forgetting...
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:08 PM on June 26, 2011


At least for now, there is no Flesh11 -- he got liquified at the end of The Almost People.

We never saw that! He could still be out there. It would be very Moffaty to have Flesh11 pop up when it's least expected.

Question: Have we seen Commander Strax before? I don't think so, but I may be forgetting...

Nope. His magnificent quantities of lactic fluid were previously unknown to us.
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:52 PM on June 26, 2011


His magnificent quantities of lactic fluid were previously unknown to us.

Previously unknown to you, maybe.
posted by maqsarian at 6:29 PM on June 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Sticherbeast: Yes, we do see Flesh11 and FleshCleeves melt. He activates the sonic screwdriver to melt Monster-Jennifer, and a split second after she melts, they melt. I just reviewed my copy -- it's at 39:54 exactly.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:48 PM on June 26, 2011


But the Doctor says something like "You know, nothing like this has ever been done before. You might regenerate, stranger things have happened," to which flesh doctor replied "I know."
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 7:10 AM on June 27, 2011


Side note: Neil Gaiman will be on the Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson tonight.
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:42 PM on June 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


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