Apogee

June 8, 2011 7:06 AM

It is a stunning image and one that is bound to be reproduced over and over again whenever they recall the history of the US space shuttle.
posted by Trurl (83 comments total)

If you like pictures of things in space and pictures of the Earth from space, Astronaut Nespoli's Flickr set is amazing. You can also get a higher-resolution copy of the picture from NASA (starting at image 5 in the gallery).
posted by fireoyster at 7:12 AM on June 8, 2011 [5 favorites]

There's more than just one picture.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:12 AM on June 8, 2011 [6 favorites]

This huge-hat trend started by the royal wedding is just ridiculous.
posted by oddman at 7:13 AM on June 8, 2011 [15 favorites]

Here, get out there and take some photos with this camera. We'll wheel ya back in. Promise.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:16 AM on June 8, 2011 [4 favorites]

A friend said this when sharing the link to these photos: it's the stuff of illustrations from 1975.
posted by zsazsa at 7:18 AM on June 8, 2011 [5 favorites]

Wow. Real spaceships, flying around in my lifetime.
posted by Mcable at 7:20 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

They had been eagerly awaited by space fans.

"What kind of fans?"
"Space fans."
posted by ORthey at 7:21 AM on June 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

This is the magic of my childhood dreams. I thought so much was possible because people could be "closer to the stars." Makes me very sad that the space program is being slashed.
posted by anya32 at 7:21 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

.

For the Shuttle Program.
posted by octothorpe at 7:22 AM on June 8, 2011 [18 favorites]

fireoyster, thank you SO much for the link to Nespoli's flickr set. Great stuff.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:22 AM on June 8, 2011

Here's my favorite from the series. The off-kilter balance gives it surreal, yet in orbit look.

I'm incredulous that these are the first of such photos. They seem like a no brainer.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:26 AM on June 8, 2011 [5 favorites]

I've always been fond of the shuttle, but the episode of Richard Hammond's Engineering Connections that aired on Sunday which went into lots of technical details made me realize "Holy shit, there is some serious rocket science that went into building that thing!"

I had no idea how clever the cooling system for the thrusters was. In fact, "clever" doesn't really even do it justice.

(I love the photo, and I'm deeply jealous that I was likely born too early to, as a non-astronaut, ever get a chance to take one like it myself.)
posted by quin at 7:28 AM on June 8, 2011

I thought so much was possible because people could be "closer to the stars."

It's only 'shallow end' stuff really. Free tickets to the moonbase is what I always hoped for.

Alas...
posted by run"monty at 7:29 AM on June 8, 2011

I always hear the Blue Danube when I see photos like this—so lovely.
posted by theredpen at 7:30 AM on June 8, 2011

*Cues up Blue Danube*
posted by shakespeherian at 7:30 AM on June 8, 2011

The picture was taken by Italian astronaut Paolo Nespoli as he left the International Space Station in May in a Soyuz capsule to return to Earth.

Safety procedures mean the Russian vehicle would never normally be in transit when a shuttle is present.
. . .

Nespoli's camera is looking along the ISS's truss, or backbone, which carries the four sets of giant solar wings. The stern is occupied by Europe's robotic freighter - the Johannes Kepler ship.

So it was kind of a traffic jam?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:30 AM on June 8, 2011

Cue the Blue Danube Waltz.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:31 AM on June 8, 2011

I'm incredulous that these are the first of such photos. They seem like a no brainer.

According to the article, safety regulations prevented this from ever happening before -- the Soyuz is not typically allowed to leave while the shuttle is docked.
posted by The Bellman at 7:31 AM on June 8, 2011

Damn, shoulda previewed...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:31 AM on June 8, 2011

I'd have gotten there first, though, if I hadn't searched for a link...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:32 AM on June 8, 2011 [3 favorites]

Ha! Beer.
posted by theredpen at 7:35 AM on June 8, 2011

What was that one classical music piece, from 2001, with the spaceship and the space station in orbit? Anyone remember? Anyone?
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:39 AM on June 8, 2011 [7 favorites]

First and last. Say good nice Gracie!
posted by blue_beetle at 7:39 AM on June 8, 2011

According to the article, safety regulations prevented this from ever happening before -- the Soyuz is not typically allowed to leave while the shuttle is docked.

Which brings up the question of why was the Soyuz allowed to leave in this particular instance?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:54 AM on June 8, 2011 [3 favorites]

Just when the ISS is finally finished, we'll never again be able to visit it without sticking our thumbs out.

Great pictures, sad day in the ongoing decline of America.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:54 AM on June 8, 2011 [10 favorites]

Good nice gracie.
posted by hal9k at 7:57 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

I have the same question as Brandon Blatcher - why did it get to leave this time? That seems like an obvious detail to have included in the article.
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:06 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Here's another awesome photo of Endeavour docked to the ISS.
posted by eemeli at 8:12 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

This Soyuz got to leave because NASA finally got comfortable with the way the system works- it took ten years of on-orbit ops, but when you're talking about human lives and a system that flew to station twice a year for eight years and four times a year for the last two(ish), ten years suddenly doesn't seem so long. A LOT of engineering work and thought went into getting comfortable with the Soyuz leaving with Endeavour there. Those pics make it all worth it though...eye-filling and gorgeous.

/works for ISS program but is most assuredly not speaking for NASA
posted by zap rowsdower at 8:17 AM on June 8, 2011 [4 favorites]

A LOT of engineering work and thought went into getting comfortable with the Soyuz leaving with Endeavour there.

If possible, could you articulate what some of the concerns were about having Soyuz leave while the shuttle was docked at the ISS? And where those concerns similar to having the shuttle leave while Soyuz was docked?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:29 AM on June 8, 2011

Come on, people. This is the neat stuff we can do. Let's get on it.
posted by brundlefly at 8:31 AM on June 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

Awww, the shuttle is just so adorable when it's sleeping!
posted by orme at 8:32 AM on June 8, 2011

Sad day? yeah, especially for those out of work as the shuttle program wraps up. Decline? Not really. But gloomers gotta gloom.

The real question remains, what is the real value of human space flight? Because the answers are all too often sound very familiar to the sentiment heard in this thread: We get really cool pictures.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:32 AM on June 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

What was that one classical music piece, from 2001, with the spaceship and the space station in orbit? Anyone remember? Anyone?

People have mentioned it, but for full reference, that would be Johann Strauss's waltz "On the Beautiful Blue Danube".

The real question remains, what is the real value of human space flight? Because the answers are all too often sound very familiar to the sentiment heard in this thread: We get really cool pictures.

Also the dust to make portal-able walls, duh.

I really wish people wouldn't say things like "majestic space shuttle". "Defective space shuttle" would be much more appropriate - it's really sad to see what is essentially hero worship over a program that really didn't fulfill its purposes at all.
posted by atbash at 8:42 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

what is the real value of human space flight?

Doing cool things.
Going cool places.
Learning cool things.
Building cool things.
Dying in cool ways.

Three of those five apply to robotic probes as well, but two do not, and oddly enough there's a value to those two as well.
posted by aramaic at 8:43 AM on June 8, 2011 [3 favorites]

Sure can. Essentially, damage to the Shuttle's thermal protection system- the black tiles on the bottom, and the gray reinforced carbon-carbon wing leading edges- is a HUGE concern (damage to the RCC is what brought Columbia down). Since then, we use the Shuttle's robotic arm to check for any damage underneath- these pictures show that really well- you can see it hanging out underneath the orbiter.

The departure of the Soyuz raises concerns for a few reasons. One, it's something flying around the ISS while the Shuttle is there- the probability that it could physically impact the orbiter is small, but not non-zero (a Progress cargo ship- essentially an unmanned Soyuz- slammed into the Mir space station). Two, when a Soyuz leaves, it uses thrusters, which fire propellant out into space. This is why the solar arrays are turned at weird angles in the pic- they're calculated to keep them edge-on to the thruster plume so as to avoid contamination. This same contamination is a potential risk to the Shuttle's tiles and windows (again, small, but non-zero). Finally (and these are by no means the only risks, just the big ones off the top of my head), the Soyuz has the ability to re-dock with the ISS if something were to be a little off after leaving. Re-docking introduces loads (when it impacts the station) that ripple throughout the ISS. It's built to handle it, but that big 100k lbs Orbiter is latched onto the ISS by that little docking hatch. If we don't have to load it, we'd rather not.

The main reason we haven't taken these pictures before now is that all those risks added up to lead us to the conclusion that because these pics weren't strictly necessary, they weren't worth the risk, and we would schedule arrivals and departures for while the Shuttle wasn't there. Fortunately, 10 years of experience combined with the realization that, no seriously, this is like the last opportunity ever, made us look again and decide we could do it (even then, we pirouetted the ISS underneath the Soyuz- the station is moving in those pics, not the Soyuz).
posted by zap rowsdower at 8:45 AM on June 8, 2011 [50 favorites]

Thanks for the extra info zap rowsdower, I too was curious as to why this was the first time Soyuz had left with the Shuttle docked, and that answers my questions. Really interesting stuff, and you are right, the pictures are absolutely worth it.
posted by maybeandroid at 8:50 AM on June 8, 2011

I'll probably never go see any of the orbiters in person - I know I'll be reduced to a teary mess. Similar to this, the Shuttle system is what we can do when we're not too busy building new ways to blow shit up.

I mean, as a red-blooded American male, I fuckin' *love* explosions, and created my own explosions as a stupid Red Blooded American Male Teenager, but...here, go shoot some bottlerockets at your brother, kid, the adults have Cool Shit (tm) to design for Humanity.

Anyway, point being, I'd be a gibbering, sobby mess at What Might Have Been, and would probably wind up yelling nonsense at the guy behind me in line with his USA-flag t-shirt and teabagger tendencies.
posted by notsnot at 8:51 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Dying in cool ways

Whenever I remember about Gus Grissom, Ed White, and Roger Chaffee dying in a fire on the launch pad, or early cosmonaut's last radio transmissions as they burned up on reentry, I sure don't think "Thank god there's a space program, or those poor bastards might still be alive!"
posted by echo target at 8:51 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Maybe somebody could pirouette the site around zap rowsdower's comment so it docks with the sidebar?
posted by notyou at 8:54 AM on June 8, 2011 [5 favorites]

Personally I like this one most because it makes the ISS look a little like the space lair of some evil overlord...
posted by Hairy Lobster at 9:04 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

The real question remains, what is the real value of human space flight?

Hell, why are trying to capture antimatter long enough so we can study it? We're not sure what we're going to find, but we until we do it, we won't know if there's anything worth finding. I know, I know, it sounds like a weak justification, but it contains one of the essential truths of scientific research: we're not exactly sure where it'll take us or what we'll learn.

Still, your question is a valid one and comes up regularly in space threads. Here's one answer I posted a while ago. Here's another. Long story short, there are numerous Earth bound benefits for running a manned space flight program. Is that a sufficient answer to continue a costly program? Yes, in my opinion. Why not continue with manned space flight when it adds to scientific research and produces a return on the investment? And we get cool pictures from time to time. It's like a an ice sculpture of win at a wedding reception of Mr & Mrs WIN.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 AM on June 8, 2011 [6 favorites]

Holy shit, we have a space station.
posted by nzero at 9:15 AM on June 8, 2011 [4 favorites]

.
posted by spitefulcrow at 10:00 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Dying in cool ways

Whenever I remember about Gus Grissom, Ed White, and Roger Chaffee dying in a fire on the launch pad...

I agree. Dying for an infatuation with Velcro isn't in my definition of cool.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:18 AM on June 8, 2011

Dying for an infatuation with Velcro isn't in my definition of cool.

On the other hand, dying because you're the very first of the only known sentient species in the universe's steps out of the cradle? I could handle that.
posted by zap rowsdower at 10:32 AM on June 8, 2011

Is it just me, or does the picture that Brandon Blatcher linked to look like a giant mechanical insect eviscerating its lifeless shuttle prey to anyone else?
posted by dendritejungle at 10:34 AM on June 8, 2011 [5 favorites]

look like a giant mechanical insect eviscerating its lifeless shuttle prey to anyone else?

Well, it does now.
posted by nzero at 10:40 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

The real question remains, what is the real value of human space flight?

Wow, seriously? Ever heard the expression "Don't put all your eggs in one basket?" Well, all of our eggs are in one basket right now.
posted by nzero at 10:45 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Heh. Sorry about that. Sort of. *rueful grin*
posted by dendritejungle at 10:46 AM on June 8, 2011

Beautiful pictures, but I'd rather provide free education up to university graduation to children than spend money on the space program.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:48 AM on June 8, 2011

Beautiful pictures, but I'd rather provide free education up to university graduation to children than spend money on the space program.

How would you pay for that?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:55 AM on June 8, 2011

How about we cut the obscene defense budget just a tiny bit and keep our space program and also provide free education?
posted by Fleebnork at 10:55 AM on June 8, 2011 [8 favorites]

How would you pay for that?

General taxation?
posted by jaduncan at 10:57 AM on June 8, 2011

KokuRyu, it's not an either/or equation. It's the standard "why spend money in space when we have starving children here?" argument. You could cancel NASA entirely and you still wouldn't "fix" a single social problem even in the United States, let alone the rest of the world. It's just not that much money. If we had waited until everything was great in Europe before heading to America, where would we be? It will never be perfect here on the ground.

I very much encourage you to watch Neil deGrasse Tyson's 2005 Goddard Memorial Dinner speech. It's pretty wide-ranging (and some parts are very funny), but the key part for me is the- unfortunately unquantifiable- inspirational value of the space program. What kid doesn't want to be an astronaut? The problem is, by the time college rolls around, they realize that it's honestly not really a viable career choice.

But what if it was? What if we had such a robust program, that people were actively excited to go into science and engineering, because of the possibility they might end up in space? Even if they don't end up at NASA, suddenly we have some of the best chemists in the world, and the best biologists, and the best physicists. Students want to be a part of the grand scheme of human exploration, and even if they end up doing vaccine research that has nothing to do with space, they went into medicine because of something the country was doing above them; they didn't go into marketing.

This isn't fantasy; it's just something we as a people have to decide to do. We have to an extent, but it's not enough.

(no offense to marketing majors, but the lack of STEM education in this country is quite possibly one of the greatest national security threats the U.S. faces)
posted by zap rowsdower at 10:59 AM on June 8, 2011 [10 favorites]

General taxation?

What sort of numbers are we talking here? How much would this program cost and where would the money come from, i.e. what are you cutting (besides NASA) to pay for it?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:00 AM on June 8, 2011

Yeah yeah yeah, I know I know, manned space flight is a waste of money better spent on rovers and satellites, and blah blah blah etc etc, but this :

The youngest of Nasa's shuttles returned to Earth on 1 June and will now be prepared for public display at a science museum in California.

just makes me sad. Future children will know of the space shuttle as evidence of an Age When We Used to Do Cool Shit.
posted by Afroblanco at 11:02 AM on June 8, 2011 [3 favorites]

Beautiful pictures, but I'd rather provide free education up to university graduation to children than spend money on the space program.

Why is it always the space program that gets put on the chopping block for such things?
posted by dirigibleman at 11:10 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Here's the relevant part of the Neil Tyson speech I was paraphrasing...
posted by zap rowsdower at 11:13 AM on June 8, 2011

Gah, BB, you do make me run the boards sometimes.The National Bureau of Economic Research state that "In 2002, states spent about $66 billion on higher education subsidies, a substantial fraction of the $289 billion spent on U.S. post-secondary education." That leaves us with $223 billion to find (since $66bn is already spent), or around $637 extra tax per person per year. I shall assume no single-payer savings or use of existing endowments, especially as these are 2002 dollars.

Defence is currently $1.030–$1.415 trillion. Cutting the budget by 20% would leave $206-283bn spare, but still leave the US by far the largest military power in the world.

Happily, that appears to be enough.
posted by jaduncan at 11:15 AM on June 8, 2011 [5 favorites]

Why is it always the space program that gets put on the chopping block for such things?

New things are bad things. Information is terror.
posted by aramaic at 11:19 AM on June 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

There is one miscalculation there - I erroneously thought the US population was 350 million. It is 307 million, so that is $726.38 per person. My apologies for that.
posted by jaduncan at 11:21 AM on June 8, 2011

If we transition from (only) Space Exploration to Space Business...
That will be the key. Right now LEO pretty much sums up the total of Space Business and only governments can get you there. I think (hope) this is getting fixed, certainly there are companies starting to get there.

Once you have a way (and the money is certainly there to be made) business will occur.

[and really cool set of pics]
posted by twidget at 11:23 AM on June 8, 2011

That leaves us with $223 billion to find...

Yeah, NASA's $17 billion isn't going to buy you much, even if it's completely and totally gutted, which is probably impossible. Some of its other programs will just get shifted to another departments because they're needed that badly.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:25 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

NASA is line noise, yes. Defence is where it's at - nobody needs quite that many F22s or a 'we nuked the dust again!' level of ICBMs. Lots of the NASA budget is effectively STEM research funding anyhow, it would be pointless to kill that to pay for universities because it's just moving budget.

I'm not sure where this 'we could do this if we cut NASA' meme comes from, it's odd. Especially in a world where Iraq/Afghanistan cost $192.3bn in additional costs over the standard defence appropriation last year alone.
posted by jaduncan at 11:44 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure where this 'we could do this if we cut NASA' meme comes from, it's odd.

It's been around since the '60s. It comes from misconceptions about the US budget. Most US citizens think NASA takes up about 20-25% of the US budget, when really it's under 1%.

HOWEVER.

The big news is that there's than these photos, THERE'S VIDEO. omgomgomgomg, I'll be in my bunk.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:28 PM on June 8, 2011 [4 favorites]

The pictures are awesome, but they are not the first photographic images of the shuttle docked at the ISS (as has been written in a bunch of articles). Thierry Legault did it at least as far back as 2009. I'll admit that his are somewhat lower resolution :).
posted by madmethods at 12:28 PM on June 8, 2011

Also, check out the ESA's gallery, which includes other photos of the fly around and mission, and the Soyuz capsule landing and crew "disembarking".
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:37 PM on June 8, 2011

This scale makes the ISS look so tiny and claustrophobic to me. Maybe the next iteration will have a Grand Entrance Hall or something.
posted by mattbucher at 12:48 PM on June 8, 2011

Happily, that appears to be enough.
posted by jaduncan at 2:15 PM on June 8

Yea, good luck passing that through the Teathuglican House. Taxes are for tanks or oil subsidies, they're not for science or education.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:51 PM on June 8, 2011

[comment removed - please don't do that hyperbolic "I am talking like a facist" thing here. Thanks.]
posted by jessamyn at 12:52 PM on June 8, 2011

I've seen so many animations and artist's renderings of space vehicle in my life, when I see this I'm initially unimpressed, and then I realize "Wait a minute, we're actually doing this?!?!?!? This is real!!!!!!!!!"
posted by benito.strauss at 12:57 PM on June 8, 2011

I really wish people wouldn't say things like "majestic space shuttle". "Defective space shuttle" would be much more appropriate - it's really sad to see what is essentially hero worship over a program that really didn't fulfill its purposes at all.
posted by atbash at 11:42 AM on June 8 [+] [!]

Not so much defective as over-promoted. NASA originally sold the idea saying that they could have a launch every three to four weeks. In other words a space shuttle. The military loved it because of greater payload options, and the Government bean counters actually believed it would be cheaper than the alternatives. The O-ring defect was discovered when the ship was launched in out of spec weather conditions. Unfortunately the well known falling foam problem was not treated as seriously as it should have been. NASA knew that Coumbia had foam impact damage at launch. they just never bothered to send someone outside to take a look. Both were errors made by engineers who thought they knew better. Also Apollo 1 was an error of mixing 100% oxygen, flammable velcro, and shabby wiring. Two of those, the oxygen and the velcro could have been fixed well before the fire. The Russians had already had issues with 100% Ox, and the engineers went way beyond their own specifications when using too much velcro.
posted by Gungho at 1:12 PM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Not so much defective as over-promoted.

Nah, it was underfunded. Eriko covered summed it pretty well in this comment from 2006. Long story short, NASA said we need X amount, Congress said too bad, you're getting Y. The US Air Force came along and said "Hey, we're in for the rest if you make these design changes." NASA said ok, then the recession hit, which made everything more expensive.


Both were errors made by engineers who thought they knew better.

In both the Challenger and Columbia accidents, the engineers were overruled by managers.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:39 PM on June 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

It's been said a few times in this thread, but part of the value of human space flight is really the inspirational component it delivers. When promoted properly, millions of schoolchildren see and sometimes interact with humans IN SPACE and have it implanted in their mind that they want to do that, or at least be a part of that.

The space program and space race are an enormous part of what turned the United States into a technological powerhouse. It shifted funding to math and science programs, gave us something as a nation to aim for, and inspired millions of students to actually learn their math and science. Since evolving technology is absolutely crucial to us surviving (see population bomb, dwarf wheat, etc, etc, etc, etc), I think that anything that inspires entire generations is a good thing for us.

Further, NASA's budget is absolutely tiny, on balance, but that's already been discussed to death here as well.

So why continue manned spaceflight? Why try for Mars?

West Wing said it best: "Because it's next."
posted by disillusioned at 1:40 PM on June 8, 2011 [2 favorites]

Oh wow, that video >. Unless I'm imagining it, you can actually see the Earth turn beneath you.

What I'd give to go into space. To hang like that on the rim of the world, and look down at the sky, and out to the universe.
posted by lucidium at 2:44 PM on June 8, 2011

Space ... the Final Frontier ...
posted by bwg at 5:14 PM on June 8, 2011

In both the Challenger and Columbia accidents, the engineers were overruled by managers.

And in the fatal launch pad fire, it was the astronauts, not the engineers who papered the capsule with Velcro.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:47 PM on June 8, 2011

This scale makes the ISS look so tiny and claustrophobic to me. Maybe the next iteration will have a Grand Entrance Hall or something.

Yes. I was wandering around the Smithsonian Air and Space Annex in Dulles (or is it Chantilly?), and almost literally stumbled upon the Enterprise. As someone above, I was almost reduced to a teary mess. "Holy fuck, it is the space shuttle!" My greatest regret is that I didn't touch it, because I could have.

Anyway, it isn't very big. Maybe half the size of a 737?
posted by gjc at 5:59 AM on June 9, 2011

I got to tour NASA's Goddard facility a few weeks ago, and got to meet lots of scientists and engineers. I think I must have interrupted every single phrase they said with "Wait....so you do all that in space??? Holycrapthatsamazing."

spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccccceeeeeeeeeeee

PS. It's a public event that they do every year. Sounds like a good opportunity for a meetup next year!
posted by schmod at 7:12 AM on June 9, 2011

I'm more impressed with the station then I am with the shuttle. The shuttle was always a stupid design. People and crap should be launched separately, since you have to be much, much more careful with the people then you do with the crap.

There was a (3D using time delay) video someone posted of the shuttle docked to the station that someone shot from earth. It was pretty epic. Can't find the link though.
posted by delmoi at 12:56 PM on June 9, 2011 [1 favorite]

OMG See that little trail? That's actually something launching into space. That's amazing.
posted by delmoi at 1:03 PM on June 9, 2011 [2 favorites]

There was a (3D using time delay) video someone posted of the shuttle docked to the station that someone shot from earth. It was pretty epic. Can't find the link though.

Were you thinking of this?
posted by mattbucher at 1:16 PM on June 9, 2011