Pakistan and India

June 10, 2011 4:24 AM

What to do about Pakistan? The Economist urges the west to focus on the Kashmir issue in order to help stabilize the region. Christopher Hitches urges the US to stand more firmly behind India.
posted by beisny (29 comments total)

I don't pretend to have any answers to the Pakistan problem.

But one thing is for sure, the US giving them billions of dollars in military aid every year isnt helping anything.
posted by Flood at 5:09 AM on June 10, 2011 [1 favorite]

Because the west focusing on a region always stabilizes it ::rolleyes::
posted by unSane at 5:12 AM on June 10, 2011 [1 favorite]

Pakistan is the best friend America could possibly have in these trying times, according to this article!
posted by Renoroc at 5:15 AM on June 10, 2011 [1 favorite]

There’s absolutely no mystery to the “Why do they hate us?” question, at least as it arises in Pakistan. They hate us because they owe us, and are dependent upon us.

Can't possibly have anything to do with the routine unmanned drone murders, routine incursions and invasions in Pakistani territory, routine CIA involvement in the country, countless other acts of meddling internally, and a fun war raging on their border. Along with playing up both sides of the India/Pakistan conflict however it suits their needs of the day.

Nope.

He could have just gone with the old/lovely "They hate us for our freedom" cliche.

I'm not quite sure how to describe this... "hypocritical imperialistic entitlement"?
posted by xqwzts at 5:25 AM on June 10, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'd agree the U.S. should dump Pakistan to build a better relationship with India, ideally like 23 years ago, or even 64 years ago.

There isn't any reason for the west to get involved in the Kashmir situation either, aside from ending military aid, and even arms sales, to Pakistan. India has been handling that dispute far more maturely than either China or the U.S. do so.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:26 AM on June 10, 2011 [2 favorites]

Unilateral disengagement in Pakistan will only lead to increasing Chinese influence - that's why leaving them alone is difficult.
posted by squorch at 5:29 AM on June 10, 2011

American discovers that Pakistan isn't America.

Rants eloquently but irrationally about it.

It is nice to see that the Big C hasn't diminished Hitchen's ability to blithely skip past awkward facts that get in the way of his macho anti-islamic fundamentalism posturing... like say ..oh..that the US is currently fighting a war in a neighboring country, which Hitch was a big cheerleader of btw, and needs Pakistan as a vital resupply route.

India, while a great ally doesn't share a border with Afghanistan.

Nor does it share a border with Iran, which might be something a macho anti-islamic fundamentalist might want to consider from a future belligerance point of view.

Geopolitical reality. It sucks.

BTW: Which country would be OK with an unannounced US military incursion? Any?

This editorial is embarrassingly bad even for Hitchens post 9/11 standards.
posted by srboisvert at 5:30 AM on June 10, 2011 [7 favorites]

Can't possibly have anything to do with the routine unmanned drone murders...

Why are the drones there? Because Pakistan takes billions of dollars in US aid which is used to fund it's army and develop its nuclear weapons and then at the very same time willfully harbors Al Qaeda members and plans terrorist attacks against India.
posted by beisny at 5:30 AM on June 10, 2011 [4 favorites]

how about we stay the fuck out of it and build some new schools
posted by Mach5 at 5:31 AM on June 10, 2011 [4 favorites]

i can't believe they printed that hitchens piece. i've heard better arguments from drunks on barstools.
posted by facetious at 5:44 AM on June 10, 2011 [2 favorites]

Why are the drones there?

Fair question. So I googled "why drones in pakistan".

The first match was the Wikipedia article on the drone bombing campaign. [Which mentions how the US disputes the Brookings Institute figure that 10 civilians are killed for each militant - saying "interviews with locals do not provide accurate numbers of civilian casualties because relatives or acquaintances of the dead refuse to admit that the victims were involved in militant activities."]

The second match was "CIA Flew Stealth Drones Into Pakistan To Monitor Bin Laden House".
posted by Trurl at 5:44 AM on June 10, 2011

The Economist urges the west to focus on the Kashmir issue

Note: It is now very important for the west to not focus on the Kashmir issue.
posted by eriko at 5:49 AM on June 10, 2011 [1 favorite]

DTMFA filter
posted by From Bklyn at 5:49 AM on June 10, 2011 [1 favorite]

Umm, why pray tell do you imagine that U.S. influence will actually limit Chinese influence in Pakistan? You limit Chinese influence world wide by encouraging India as a democratic counterbalance.

India is a stable democracy where you can literally buy lasting good will among the voters through good relations, aid, permissive immigration, and maybe the occasional extradition.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:49 AM on June 10, 2011 [2 favorites]

Christopher Hitches urges the US to stand more firmly behind India.

Well, bless his heart.
posted by kaibutsu at 6:21 AM on June 10, 2011

i can't believe they printed that hitchens piece. i've heard better arguments from drunks on barstools.

How do you know he didn't write it on a bar stool?

But seriously, he calls Zardari "lacking in manliness". I suppose that's the Vanity Fair Editorial Writer equivalent of shoving the guy at the end of the bar and calling him a faggot.
posted by Trurl at 6:33 AM on June 10, 2011 [2 favorites]

India has been handling that dispute far more maturely than either China or the U.S. do so.

I don't know. Taking over a territory against the fervent wish of over three-quarters of its population merely because its feudal lord says so, and then procrastinating more than 60 years over a promised plebiscite does not exactly strike me as the definition of "mature".
posted by Skeptic at 6:43 AM on June 10, 2011 [2 favorites]

Complex issue is complex... Hindu-Muslim relations have been in the crapper since the 7th century CE and every time an external agency jiggles the handle (Timur, the Raj, "the west") it just takes another trip around the vortex.
posted by Runes at 6:48 AM on June 10, 2011 [3 favorites]

i can't believe they printed that hitchens piece. i've heard better arguments from drunks on barstools.

I'm pretty certain he wrote that sitting on a chair.
posted by Skeptic at 7:07 AM on June 10, 2011

Here is a good place to start understanding Kashmir from a Kashmiri viewpoint, after all they are the people who live there.
India is part of the problem but must be part of the solution.
How the Kashmir Dispute Affects Security in South Asia.
In 2009 there was discussion about Realigning Pakistan's Security Forces
However Pakistan now has a full blown civil war erupting in its tribal areas and spreading to Balochistan.
China has interest in Kashmir as well
Water rights may be the next point of conflict.
Meanwhile China Pakistan bilateral trade is set to top 15bn by 2015 whilest bilateral trade with USA is falling.
China is seeking to continue its string of pearls with Gwadar
posted by adamvasco at 7:17 AM on June 10, 2011 [1 favorite]

What is the problem exactly with increased Chinese involvement? Are they not already firmly invested in the region via Tibet? Certainly the Chinese communists are as opposed to the Taliban and Al K. Duh as anyone else.
posted by three blind mice at 8:02 AM on June 10, 2011

It seems too late to de-fuck this situation to me. Even if India decided to just cut bait and let Kashmir go, at this point the Jihadis and radical Islamicists are so entrenched, and would be able to spin it as a victory. "After our long struggle we have finally overcome the enemy - proof that our patience and devotion to the cause was the right thing to do!"
posted by Meatbomb at 8:41 AM on June 10, 2011

Forget Pakistan; India and China are the ones who are to be pushed to decide the Kashmir issue. Pakistan is little more than a failed state and China is pulling the strings, far more than the USA ever could. That is the way to peace.
posted by Renoroc at 10:26 AM on June 10, 2011

Something about orbit, limited options, and reducing doubt.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 7:06 PM on June 10, 2011

Pakistan Arrests C.I.A. Informants in Bin Laden Raid
posted by homunculus at 9:30 AM on June 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Only India can do something for Pakistan, because no other country is interested in protesting them, due to their gain in quarrel of neightbour countries.
posted by LauraWinson at 10:21 PM on June 19, 2011

It's always entertaining people who have never been to Pakistan pontificating about what should or should not be "done about it."

/grar
posted by bardophile at 4:19 AM on June 20, 2011

*to watch people....


(note to self: when feeling grar, preview multiple times.)
posted by bardophile at 4:19 AM on June 20, 2011

Christine Fair rebuts Hitchens.
posted by bardophile at 12:59 AM on June 27, 2011 [1 favorite]