WARNING: Please check in with a heterosexual “accountability buddy” before reading this article
July 11, 2011 7:35 AM Subscribe
How I Went Undercover at Bachmann's Clinic: Truth Wins Out (or TWO) activist John Becker took a hidden camera with him to five therapy sessions at a Christian counseling center run by Marcus Bachmann. Meanwhile, QUEERTY debates whether making fun of Mr. Bachmann's own decidedly "gay-sounding" voice (and theoretical repressed-gay tendencies) is fair game, or whether it counts as homophobic bullying.
Put me down in the "homophobic bullying" column. Attacking someone's ideas or actions? Absolutely. Attacking physical traits (like a "gay-sounding" voice) is just fucking juvenile.
posted by deadmessenger at 7:44 AM on July 11, 2011 [19 favorites]
posted by deadmessenger at 7:44 AM on July 11, 2011 [19 favorites]
That said, I totally volunteer to be someone's homosexuality accountability buddy.
posted by honeydew at 7:44 AM on July 11, 2011 [13 favorites]
posted by honeydew at 7:44 AM on July 11, 2011 [13 favorites]
I learned this weekend that some people I admire and respect support Bachmann for President.
I don't get how you can look at her eyes, let alone listen to her content, and not be convinced she's insane.
posted by DU at 7:45 AM on July 11, 2011 [14 favorites]
I don't get how you can look at her eyes, let alone listen to her content, and not be convinced she's insane.
posted by DU at 7:45 AM on July 11, 2011 [14 favorites]
Attacking physical traits (like a "gay-sounding" voice) is just fucking juvenile.
How about attacking the fact that he's called gays "barbarians" who need to be cured of their barbarism? Does that count?
posted by blucevalo at 7:48 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
How about attacking the fact that he's called gays "barbarians" who need to be cured of their barbarism? Does that count?
posted by blucevalo at 7:48 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Does that count?
...was someone arguing it didn't?
posted by griphus at 7:50 AM on July 11, 2011 [12 favorites]
...was someone arguing it didn't?
posted by griphus at 7:50 AM on July 11, 2011 [12 favorites]
How about attacking the fact that he's called gays "barbarians" who need to be cured of their barbarism? Does that count?
If you'd quoted the whole comment, you'd have answered your own question, wouldn't you?
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 7:52 AM on July 11, 2011 [8 favorites]
If you'd quoted the whole comment, you'd have answered your own question, wouldn't you?
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 7:52 AM on July 11, 2011 [8 favorites]
From Minnesota’s Stonewall DFL chairman David Joseph DeGrio (in the last link):
"We oppose this exact kind of mockery and bullying in the schools because kids commit suicide over these exact same jokes and perceptions. If, by some chance, Marcus Bachmann is living a lie we should have compassion and understanding. We know what it’s like to live each day hiding truth and fearing discovery by others. I respect your right to free speech, but I must speak out when I see injustice even when they injustice is levied against those who oppose all that I am."
posted by hermitosis at 7:52 AM on July 11, 2011 [54 favorites]
"We oppose this exact kind of mockery and bullying in the schools because kids commit suicide over these exact same jokes and perceptions. If, by some chance, Marcus Bachmann is living a lie we should have compassion and understanding. We know what it’s like to live each day hiding truth and fearing discovery by others. I respect your right to free speech, but I must speak out when I see injustice even when they injustice is levied against those who oppose all that I am."
posted by hermitosis at 7:52 AM on July 11, 2011 [54 favorites]
...was someone arguing it didn't?
If you'd quoted the whole comment, you'd have answered your own question, wouldn't you?
Yes, sorry. Too much caffeine this morning. I apologize.
posted by blucevalo at 7:52 AM on July 11, 2011 [11 favorites]
If you'd quoted the whole comment, you'd have answered your own question, wouldn't you?
Yes, sorry. Too much caffeine this morning. I apologize.
posted by blucevalo at 7:52 AM on July 11, 2011 [11 favorites]
I don't get how you can look at her eyes, let alone listen to her content, and not be convinced she's insane.
We don't like to use the term, you know crazy, just committed
posted by delmoi at 7:53 AM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
We don't like to use the term, you know crazy, just committed
posted by delmoi at 7:53 AM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
Regarding the "gay sounding" voice - I can why a homophobic person could become more homophobic if he's being bullied for being 'afflicted' with a gay voice. Which makes it another reason not to be making an issue about his voice...
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 7:56 AM on July 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 7:56 AM on July 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
Attacking physical traits (like a "gay-sounding" voice) is just fucking juvenile.
People aren't "attacking" his voice. They aren't even making fun of his voice, per se. They are making fun of the incongruity between the "gay-sounding" voice and the fact that he calls homosexuals barbarians, and by doing so implying that he might be one of a long line of repressed conservative homosexuals.
Put me in the category of people who think his voice is irrelevant, but let's not misrepresent what people are saying about his voice.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 7:57 AM on July 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
People aren't "attacking" his voice. They aren't even making fun of his voice, per se. They are making fun of the incongruity between the "gay-sounding" voice and the fact that he calls homosexuals barbarians, and by doing so implying that he might be one of a long line of repressed conservative homosexuals.
Put me in the category of people who think his voice is irrelevant, but let's not misrepresent what people are saying about his voice.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 7:57 AM on July 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
The sad thing is that the people who are truly opposed to Mr. Bachmann won't be homophobic about it because they understand the damage that can cause, but unfortunately for civil decorum there's the republican primary to think about and that group of people will almost definitely go for the homophoia and shaming, even among their own people, to win.
posted by fuq at 7:58 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by fuq at 7:58 AM on July 11, 2011
Annnnd once again the discussion of a truly evil practice is sidelines while we discuss whether one of the perpetrators is being treated meanly and may cry and tell his mommy.
posted by DU at 8:00 AM on July 11, 2011 [29 favorites]
posted by DU at 8:00 AM on July 11, 2011 [29 favorites]
They are making fun of the incongruity between the "gay-sounding" voice and the fact that he calls homosexuals barbarians, and by doing so implying that he might be one of a long line of repressed conservative homosexuals. [...] but let's not misrepresent what people are saying about his voice.
Did you consider that it's this gigantic leap that others are considering barbaric?
posted by tapesonthefloor at 8:03 AM on July 11, 2011
Did you consider that it's this gigantic leap that others are considering barbaric?
posted by tapesonthefloor at 8:03 AM on July 11, 2011
People aren't "attacking" his voice. They aren't even making fun of his voice, per se.
Yeah, a lot of leftists aren't, but some have gotten a little careless about it in their rush to discredit this guy. And fuq's right about the Republicans. I've been trawling the Michele Bachmann FB page a lot lately, and a lot of the anti-Bachmania comes from Republicans who back other candidates, and there is a pretty nasty homophobic slant to their rejection of Mr. Bachmann. But even the stuff that is coming from leftists who presumably have my back makes me cringe.
posted by hermitosis at 8:05 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yeah, a lot of leftists aren't, but some have gotten a little careless about it in their rush to discredit this guy. And fuq's right about the Republicans. I've been trawling the Michele Bachmann FB page a lot lately, and a lot of the anti-Bachmania comes from Republicans who back other candidates, and there is a pretty nasty homophobic slant to their rejection of Mr. Bachmann. But even the stuff that is coming from leftists who presumably have my back makes me cringe.
posted by hermitosis at 8:05 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yes making fun of his voice is juvenile, yes there are way more legit points to attack him on then that, but having seen up close the kind of damage ex- gay therapy does to people, I am willing to admire I really do nit give a shit about Mr. Bachmann's feelings.
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
People aren't "attacking" his voice. They aren't even making fun of his voice, per se. They are making fun of the incongruity between the "gay-sounding" voice and the fact that he calls homosexuals barbarians, and by doing so implying that he might be one of a long line of repressed conservative homosexuals.
I don't think people should be making fun of the voice on its own, no. But as you said here context is the importent thing. As far as offering him compassion? Are you fucking kidding me? He's a grown man. He knows very well what he is doing and what he is doing is damaging to people who might not know better. You want to protect the bullied, maybe it's not such a bad idea to target...ya know...the bully.
Once again, we on the left cast our own ineffectual irrelevance with our "let's pretend we live in a sterile vacuum of polite theoretics" Judean People's Front nonsense.
His hypocrisy isn't just fair game, it's one of the main objectives.
I don't have to give a damn about his poor repressed feelings.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:09 AM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
I don't think people should be making fun of the voice on its own, no. But as you said here context is the importent thing. As far as offering him compassion? Are you fucking kidding me? He's a grown man. He knows very well what he is doing and what he is doing is damaging to people who might not know better. You want to protect the bullied, maybe it's not such a bad idea to target...ya know...the bully.
Once again, we on the left cast our own ineffectual irrelevance with our "let's pretend we live in a sterile vacuum of polite theoretics" Judean People's Front nonsense.
His hypocrisy isn't just fair game, it's one of the main objectives.
I don't have to give a damn about his poor repressed feelings.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:09 AM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
You know where evil always starts? When people say to themselves, "Yeah, I know this is a bad thing I'm doing, but I'm doing it to people who are even worse." Every single time. They always deserve it.
posted by Etrigan at 8:11 AM on July 11, 2011 [36 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:11 AM on July 11, 2011 [36 favorites]
If only we could pray away the crazies up there in Minnesota. Perhaps those long winters are really beginning to get to people, eh?
posted by Leezie at 8:12 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Leezie at 8:12 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't know, I tend to trust David Cross on these matters.
posted by delfin at 8:13 AM on July 11, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by delfin at 8:13 AM on July 11, 2011 [7 favorites]
I'm not justifying the "gay sounding voice" remarks. I'm commenting on the differential in how much we are talking about THAT vs how much we are talking about the fact that this guy is doing the same thing, and much much worse, to blameless children.
posted by DU at 8:14 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by DU at 8:14 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Eventually everyone involved in ex-gay therapy will realize heterosexual men do not have to force themselves every second of every day to enjoy sex with women.
The interesting thing to me is how much f this is coming from fellow GOP supporters. I can see nit wanting Bachmann in the lime light, cause she is crazy and says crazy things with her crazy mouth, but the GOP used to give good party unity so I'm a bit surprised.
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 AM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
The interesting thing to me is how much f this is coming from fellow GOP supporters. I can see nit wanting Bachmann in the lime light, cause she is crazy and says crazy things with her crazy mouth, but the GOP used to give good party unity so I'm a bit surprised.
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 AM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
No one cares about his feelings. This about the larger message that's sent when you disparage someone on the basis of mannerisms that you perceive as gay, and how doing so contradicts the tone that gays and leftists have been trying to set for these discussions for many years.
posted by hermitosis at 8:17 AM on July 11, 2011 [13 favorites]
posted by hermitosis at 8:17 AM on July 11, 2011 [13 favorites]
Annnnd once again the discussion of a truly evil practice is sidelines while we discuss whether one of the perpetrators is being treated meanly and may cry and tell his mommy.
Bullshit. I think being conscious of the possible implications of public discourse (such as using homophobic taunt to attack homophobia) that help avoid the evil that is represented by completely non-self-reflective people like the Bachmanns. "I think they are horrible so anything goes when discrediting them," results in lowest common denominator rhetoric all around.
posted by aught at 8:19 AM on July 11, 2011
Bullshit. I think being conscious of the possible implications of public discourse (such as using homophobic taunt to attack homophobia) that help avoid the evil that is represented by completely non-self-reflective people like the Bachmanns. "I think they are horrible so anything goes when discrediting them," results in lowest common denominator rhetoric all around.
posted by aught at 8:19 AM on July 11, 2011
Right. But while I don't feel like we should be making fun of the voice itself I see no problem with making fun of the fact that having it is one of the many characteristics that make him a hypocritical bigot.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:19 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:19 AM on July 11, 2011
There is something truly wrong with the Left in this country. There is absolutely no way to get their attention focused on the enemy. It's circular firing squads all-round.
posted by DU at 8:23 AM on July 11, 2011 [20 favorites]
posted by DU at 8:23 AM on July 11, 2011 [20 favorites]
while I don't feel like we should be making fun of the voice itself I see no problem with making fun of the fact that having it is one of the many characteristics that make him a hypocritical bigot.
How does having a gay-sounding voice make him hypocritical? Hypocrisy is expressing one belief and then acting in a contrary way. The sound of his voice isn't the expression of a belief.
I don't even know that he's hypocritical. That's giving him too much credit. As far as I can tell, he's consistently wrong.
posted by John Cohen at 8:24 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
How does having a gay-sounding voice make him hypocritical? Hypocrisy is expressing one belief and then acting in a contrary way. The sound of his voice isn't the expression of a belief.
I don't even know that he's hypocritical. That's giving him too much credit. As far as I can tell, he's consistently wrong.
posted by John Cohen at 8:24 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
There is something truly wrong with the Left in this country. There is absolutely no way to get their attention focused on the enemy. It's circular firing squads all-round.
Could someone please explain how this meme got started? Is there any actual evidence for the idea that liberals do much better on economic issues than on social issues? I know so many people (including myself) who vote for Democrats mainly because of social issues and would have a much harder time deciding if economics were the only issue. Democrats' advantage on social issues is going to keep getting stronger and stronger as new young people reach voting age and old people with relatively conservative views die out.
posted by John Cohen at 8:27 AM on July 11, 2011
Could someone please explain how this meme got started? Is there any actual evidence for the idea that liberals do much better on economic issues than on social issues? I know so many people (including myself) who vote for Democrats mainly because of social issues and would have a much harder time deciding if economics were the only issue. Democrats' advantage on social issues is going to keep getting stronger and stronger as new young people reach voting age and old people with relatively conservative views die out.
posted by John Cohen at 8:27 AM on July 11, 2011
There is something truly wrong with the Left in this country. There is absolutely no way to get their attention focused on the enemy. It's circular firing squads all-round.
I actually really disagree in this case. There is total, UNANIMOUS opposition to this particular enemy among the Left. And in the main link, you see the work that is being done to investigate and thoroughly discredit him. That we also actually consider and debate about what we're thinking is a feature, not a bug. I don't think we can afford to stop choosing our words carefully.
posted by hermitosis at 8:30 AM on July 11, 2011 [11 favorites]
I actually really disagree in this case. There is total, UNANIMOUS opposition to this particular enemy among the Left. And in the main link, you see the work that is being done to investigate and thoroughly discredit him. That we also actually consider and debate about what we're thinking is a feature, not a bug. I don't think we can afford to stop choosing our words carefully.
posted by hermitosis at 8:30 AM on July 11, 2011 [11 favorites]
I think that anyone who thinks he has a "gay-sounding" voice hasn't spent enough time around Minnesotans.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:30 AM on July 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by villanelles at dawn at 8:30 AM on July 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
The big problem with Mr. Bachmann isn't that he's a repressed self-hating homosexual. That's sad, not evil. The big problem with Mr. Bachmann that we should all tear him to bits with is that he is completely delusional and ignorant.
There is something truly wrong with the Left in this country. There is absolutely no way to get their attention focused on the enemy. It's circular firing squads all-round.
I'm not with the Left in this country, I'm a socialist so I'm not allowed to participate in politics.
posted by fuq at 8:31 AM on July 11, 2011 [10 favorites]
There is something truly wrong with the Left in this country. There is absolutely no way to get their attention focused on the enemy. It's circular firing squads all-round.
I'm not with the Left in this country, I'm a socialist so I'm not allowed to participate in politics.
posted by fuq at 8:31 AM on July 11, 2011 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile she is leading in the poll sin Iowa...
If only we could pray away the crazies up there in Minnesota. Perhaps those long winters are really beginning to get to people, eh? Eh, people in TX (or most other states for that matter) have little room to complain about politicians from other states. Frankly I'd be pretty shocked if she won Minnesota, despite being her home state, no so much if she won TX
posted by edgeways at 8:31 AM on July 11, 2011
If only we could pray away the crazies up there in Minnesota. Perhaps those long winters are really beginning to get to people, eh? Eh, people in TX (or most other states for that matter) have little room to complain about politicians from other states. Frankly I'd be pretty shocked if she won Minnesota, despite being her home state, no so much if she won TX
posted by edgeways at 8:31 AM on July 11, 2011
"We oppose this exact kind of mockery and bullying in the schools because kids commit suicide over these exact same jokes and perceptions. If, by some chance, Marcus Bachmann is living a lie we should have compassion and understanding. We know what it’s like to live each day hiding truth and fearing discovery by others.
Sorry, but if Marcus Bachmann is living a lie, he is amping it up to an incredible level voluntarily. Compassion is for people who are struggling with their own pain. Inflicting pain on others does not warrant compassion, but rather identification of that action as bullying itself and opprobrium.
posted by Mental Wimp at 8:32 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sorry, but if Marcus Bachmann is living a lie, he is amping it up to an incredible level voluntarily. Compassion is for people who are struggling with their own pain. Inflicting pain on others does not warrant compassion, but rather identification of that action as bullying itself and opprobrium.
posted by Mental Wimp at 8:32 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
DU, do you not see the irony in having posted that.
:|
I'm relatively straight-sounding, so I have a ton of respect for the cojones on the effeminate guys that grew up in American high schools and the shit they had to put up with. That's why I'm not going to yell those same schoolyard taunts at yet another one of the horrible ex-gay fuckheads that may or may not be gay themselves. What he does is evil enough on its own without having to resort to calling someone a mincing faggoty faggot with a pansy queer voice.
Oh, you say that you wouldn't say anything like that?
Well, sorry, you don't get to choose how people hear your words, and it could be pretty easy for more effeminate guys to hear your taunting in the same tone of voice they've heard used on them their entire lives.
He should be shamed and scorned because of the hurtful, evil shit he does, not the voice he uses to do it.
posted by kavasa at 8:33 AM on July 11, 2011 [24 favorites]
:|
I'm relatively straight-sounding, so I have a ton of respect for the cojones on the effeminate guys that grew up in American high schools and the shit they had to put up with. That's why I'm not going to yell those same schoolyard taunts at yet another one of the horrible ex-gay fuckheads that may or may not be gay themselves. What he does is evil enough on its own without having to resort to calling someone a mincing faggoty faggot with a pansy queer voice.
Oh, you say that you wouldn't say anything like that?
Well, sorry, you don't get to choose how people hear your words, and it could be pretty easy for more effeminate guys to hear your taunting in the same tone of voice they've heard used on them their entire lives.
He should be shamed and scorned because of the hurtful, evil shit he does, not the voice he uses to do it.
posted by kavasa at 8:33 AM on July 11, 2011 [24 favorites]
I'm going to choose to not belittle him for having an effeminate voice (which he does), I'm going to to choose to belittle him for being the kind of person who believes he should involve himself in changing sexuality the of others because he thinks it's something his god doesn't like.
Because fuck people like that.
posted by quin at 8:33 AM on July 11, 2011 [12 favorites]
Because fuck people like that.
posted by quin at 8:33 AM on July 11, 2011 [12 favorites]
To turn back to the meat of the post, as it were...
Based on my experiences at Bachmann & Associates, there can no longer be any doubt that Marcus Bachmann’s state- and federally-funded clinic endorses and practices reparative therapy aimed at changing a gay person’s sexual orientation, despite the fact that such “therapy” is widely discredited by the scientific and medical communities. It’s time for Michele and Marcus Bachmann to stop denying, dodging, and stonewalling. They owe it to all Americans to provide a full and honest explanation for their embrace of these dangerous and fraudulent practices.
posted by The Whelk at 8:38 AM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Based on my experiences at Bachmann & Associates, there can no longer be any doubt that Marcus Bachmann’s state- and federally-funded clinic endorses and practices reparative therapy aimed at changing a gay person’s sexual orientation, despite the fact that such “therapy” is widely discredited by the scientific and medical communities. It’s time for Michele and Marcus Bachmann to stop denying, dodging, and stonewalling. They owe it to all Americans to provide a full and honest explanation for their embrace of these dangerous and fraudulent practices.
posted by The Whelk at 8:38 AM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Oh, and note that dude went out and got a mail order doctorate so he could call himself "Dr. Bachmann" and attract even more confused souls to torment. Shit is evil.
posted by Mental Wimp at 8:38 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by Mental Wimp at 8:38 AM on July 11, 2011
Screw that. You want to destroy someone, you attack him where he is most vulnerable and hit him in that spot as hard as you can. He runs a bullshit Christian counseling center that tries to destroy the sexuality of perfectly healthy homosexual men and women? Then we already know where he is most weak, where his insecurities are and his exposure to ridicule among the shit-eaters who form his base and backers, and we hit him there over and over again until he can't peddle his garbage in public any more. We can worry about whether the tactics are sweet and pretty once we've won.
posted by 1adam12 at 8:42 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 8:42 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
So Marcus Bachmann's got an "effeminate" voice? Eh, whatever. I've seen enough straight men with "effeminate" voices, and enough gay men with "masculine" voices, to conclude that there's no statistically significant correlation. This means nothing.
Interestingly enough, though, there is one characteristic that I have observed to have a very strong correlation with homosexuality. Very, very strong, indeed. That characteristic is being a high-ranking member of an anti-gay organization.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:42 AM on July 11, 2011 [14 favorites]
Interestingly enough, though, there is one characteristic that I have observed to have a very strong correlation with homosexuality. Very, very strong, indeed. That characteristic is being a high-ranking member of an anti-gay organization.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:42 AM on July 11, 2011 [14 favorites]
QUEERTY debates whether making fun of Mr. Bachmann's own decidedly "gay-sounding" voice (and theoretical repressed-gay tendencies) is fair game, or whether it counts as homophobic bullying.
What about merely laughing at Mr. Bachmann? Is that allowed? 'Cause I watched one of those videos (the one where he walks down a hall greeting people) and oh, Mary! I couldn't help but chuckle at the sight of a crazy homophobic Republican who looked just like Steve Hayes doing his Tired Old Queen at the movies shtick.
Now, "bullying" Mr. Bachmann because he looks and sounds like an old queen would be wrong, obviously. But it's pretty hard not to giggle.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:48 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
What about merely laughing at Mr. Bachmann? Is that allowed? 'Cause I watched one of those videos (the one where he walks down a hall greeting people) and oh, Mary! I couldn't help but chuckle at the sight of a crazy homophobic Republican who looked just like Steve Hayes doing his Tired Old Queen at the movies shtick.
Now, "bullying" Mr. Bachmann because he looks and sounds like an old queen would be wrong, obviously. But it's pretty hard not to giggle.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:48 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
...in changing the sexuality the of...
Wow, I tried to change the phrasing of that right before I hit post and managed to make it even less coherent that the original wording.
Yay me!
posted by quin at 8:48 AM on July 11, 2011
Wow, I tried to change the phrasing of that right before I hit post and managed to make it even less coherent that the original wording.
Yay me!
posted by quin at 8:48 AM on July 11, 2011
We can worry about whether the tactics are sweet and pretty once we've won.
"We've won; we must have been right."
posted by hermitosis at 8:49 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
"We've won; we must have been right."
posted by hermitosis at 8:49 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Metafilter:Too much caffeine this morning. I apologize.
posted by wheelieman at 8:50 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by wheelieman at 8:50 AM on July 11, 2011
This is the guy he saw for therapy. As I read about the sessions, I tried to imagine the kind of authority with which he spoke, and how he was totally convinced of what he was saying. And how he is licensed to dispence this "wisdom."
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:52 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:52 AM on July 11, 2011
"I was shopping for my wife Bonnie. I buy most of her clothes and Mrs Pearl was in the same shop! And it just was an accident you know, we started talking... about panty hose, she was saying... whatever that's not the point of the story but what the point is is that through this accidental meeting... it's like a Hitchcock movie you know where you're thrown into a rubber bag and put in the trunk of a car, you find people. You find them. Something, is is it karma? Maybe. But we found him, that's the important thing. And I got Bonnie a wonderful pantsuit."
— Not a Marcus Bachmann quote
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:54 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
— Not a Marcus Bachmann quote
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:54 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
We can worry about whether the tactics are sweet and pretty once we've won.
There's a quote about being careful when fighting monsters to not turn into a monster yourself. You might want to look it up.
Making statements about what someone's sexuality must be based on their appearance or behavior or voice or affectations is loathsome, period. You can (supposedly) leave out the implication that being gay is a bad thing - it doesn't change the fact that it's shitty to TELL SOMEONE ELSE what their sexual orientation must be and that you know better than they do.
Lots of behavior is just shit regardless of whether the target/victim/recipient is a bad person. Abusing someone for their looks and voice is one of them. There's lots of other perfectly valid ways to attack this unacceptable behavior without resorting to the weapons of evil.
posted by phearlez at 9:03 AM on July 11, 2011 [7 favorites]
There's a quote about being careful when fighting monsters to not turn into a monster yourself. You might want to look it up.
Making statements about what someone's sexuality must be based on their appearance or behavior or voice or affectations is loathsome, period. You can (supposedly) leave out the implication that being gay is a bad thing - it doesn't change the fact that it's shitty to TELL SOMEONE ELSE what their sexual orientation must be and that you know better than they do.
Lots of behavior is just shit regardless of whether the target/victim/recipient is a bad person. Abusing someone for their looks and voice is one of them. There's lots of other perfectly valid ways to attack this unacceptable behavior without resorting to the weapons of evil.
posted by phearlez at 9:03 AM on July 11, 2011 [7 favorites]
We can worry about whether the tactics are sweet and pretty once we've won.
the ends are the means.
posted by philip-random at 9:04 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
the ends are the means.
posted by philip-random at 9:04 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Michele Bachmann Salutes the Upside to Slavery
Trying to Recover From Slavery Furor, Bachmann Repeats the Error
posted by homunculus at 9:05 AM on July 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
Trying to Recover From Slavery Furor, Bachmann Repeats the Error
posted by homunculus at 9:05 AM on July 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
Democrats' advantage on social issues is going to keep getting stronger and stronger as new young people reach voting age and old people with relatively conservative views die out.
What I really don't get is this meme that somehow as conservative codgers and harpies die out that there will not be 25 young conservatives who are even more hardcore than they waiting in the wings to replace them, no matter how much the "demographics" seem to favor the Dems. That replacement is sure as hell what happened as the old doddering codgers from the vestigial polite Nelson Rockefeller wing of the GOP died out. Do we think that all of the Tea Partiers running amok in the House right now are 80 years old and in wheelchairs? Do we think that the Dems are going to do what it takes to get their shining message across to the wave of younger voters who are supposedly just waiting to be plucked?
Also, I'm not really seeing where a handful of self-referential posts on queerty (because that's what it is) counts as a burgeoning epidemic of horrendous Marcus Bachmann-bashing, but maybe that's just me.
posted by blucevalo at 9:09 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
What I really don't get is this meme that somehow as conservative codgers and harpies die out that there will not be 25 young conservatives who are even more hardcore than they waiting in the wings to replace them, no matter how much the "demographics" seem to favor the Dems. That replacement is sure as hell what happened as the old doddering codgers from the vestigial polite Nelson Rockefeller wing of the GOP died out. Do we think that all of the Tea Partiers running amok in the House right now are 80 years old and in wheelchairs? Do we think that the Dems are going to do what it takes to get their shining message across to the wave of younger voters who are supposedly just waiting to be plucked?
Also, I'm not really seeing where a handful of self-referential posts on queerty (because that's what it is) counts as a burgeoning epidemic of horrendous Marcus Bachmann-bashing, but maybe that's just me.
posted by blucevalo at 9:09 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh my god, homunculus. Literally laughing tears over that second link.
posted by hermitosis at 9:10 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by hermitosis at 9:10 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Personally I have always found that even when I lose, I still want to be an ethical person in my dealings. I will not use tactics on others that I find abhorrent when used on a group I agree with.
I don't understand people who will use their queer and/or progressive dollars to buy from Urban Outfitters or TOMS when they are raging about M. Bachmann's voice. It makes no sense to me.
Put your money where your mouth is and stop using high school tactics. They are ineffective.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:11 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't understand people who will use their queer and/or progressive dollars to buy from Urban Outfitters or TOMS when they are raging about M. Bachmann's voice. It makes no sense to me.
Put your money where your mouth is and stop using high school tactics. They are ineffective.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:11 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Put your money where your mouth is and stop using high school tactics. They are ineffective.
Er. Yes they are too. That's why America's so fucked of late.
We live in a REAL world, not some theoretical computer model with a solid fair play engine.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:15 AM on July 11, 2011
Er. Yes they are too. That's why America's so fucked of late.
We live in a REAL world, not some theoretical computer model with a solid fair play engine.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:15 AM on July 11, 2011
Put your money where your mouth is and stop using high school tactics. They are ineffective.
Er. Yes they are too
ARE NOT!
posted by phearlez at 9:17 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Er. Yes they are too
ARE NOT!
posted by phearlez at 9:17 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
They are ineffective.
Er. Yes they are too. That's why America's so fucked of late.
Interesting how the logic plays out here. Nasty, middle-school level tactics are apparently very effective at fucking up America. I guess it all depends on what one is endeavoring to accomplish.
posted by philip-random at 9:19 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Er. Yes they are too. That's why America's so fucked of late.
Interesting how the logic plays out here. Nasty, middle-school level tactics are apparently very effective at fucking up America. I guess it all depends on what one is endeavoring to accomplish.
posted by philip-random at 9:19 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
We can worry about whether the tactics are sweet and pretty once we've won.
Tactics are actions in support of a strategy or ideal. If the mechanics of a tactic subvert the very ideal one is attempting to uphold then it is an intrinsic and inevitable failure.
posted by Babblesort at 9:19 AM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
Tactics are actions in support of a strategy or ideal. If the mechanics of a tactic subvert the very ideal one is attempting to uphold then it is an intrinsic and inevitable failure.
posted by Babblesort at 9:19 AM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
The thing about whether or not Marcus Bachmann is gay is that it probably doesn't matter all that much. Unless Mr. Bachmann gets caught in a Minneapolis S&M club having a train run on him by Prince & the Revolution, Michele's base won't believe it, and IF/WHEN he does, the denial -> admission -> 'rehab' -> God Has Forgiven Me For My Lapses, Won't You? flowchart for Male Anti-Gay Republican Crusaders Who Suddenly Realize That They Loved The Cock All Along is well-worn and battle-tested.
posted by delfin at 9:20 AM on July 11, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by delfin at 9:20 AM on July 11, 2011 [9 favorites]
Also, attacking Mr. Bachmann for sounding 'effeminate' is one of the many ways that homophobia walks hand in hand with misogyny. Is there something wrong with being like a woman, such that a man should be mocked for it?
posted by hydropsyche at 9:21 AM on July 11, 2011 [20 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 9:21 AM on July 11, 2011 [20 favorites]
I guess it all depends on what one is endeavoring to accomplish.
This "slippery slope" stuff is nonsense. I don't buy it from them and I don't buy it from us.
You know what you have to do to not turn evil?
Not turn evil.
It really is that simple.
As adults we should be able to hit back without confusing ourselves with the "monster" we wish to defeat.
This asinine idea that fighting back just brings you down to their level just results in far more suffering.
But hey, at least you'll still be self-impressed with how clean your hands are at the end of the day.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:22 AM on July 11, 2011
This "slippery slope" stuff is nonsense. I don't buy it from them and I don't buy it from us.
You know what you have to do to not turn evil?
Not turn evil.
It really is that simple.
As adults we should be able to hit back without confusing ourselves with the "monster" we wish to defeat.
This asinine idea that fighting back just brings you down to their level just results in far more suffering.
But hey, at least you'll still be self-impressed with how clean your hands are at the end of the day.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:22 AM on July 11, 2011
This asinine idea that fighting back just brings you down to their level just results in far more suffering.
Please point out where people are talking about not fighting back.
posted by hermitosis at 9:28 AM on July 11, 2011
Please point out where people are talking about not fighting back.
posted by hermitosis at 9:28 AM on July 11, 2011
Senor Cardgage, you're throwing down your opinion here as if it's THE TRUTH, which we all do from time to time. But the fact that you're advocating for a certain level of nastiness in an ends-justify-means sort of way makes it problematic for site-harmony. I recommend you check out the Meta sonika just started and allow this discussion to focus on more than just one of its sharper edges.
posted by philip-random at 9:30 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by philip-random at 9:30 AM on July 11, 2011
You know what you have to do to not turn evil?
Not turn evil.
"Well, I checked my Evil Gauge, and it says I'm comfortably in the yellow. Whew."
posted by Etrigan at 9:35 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not turn evil.
"Well, I checked my Evil Gauge, and it says I'm comfortably in the yellow. Whew."
posted by Etrigan at 9:35 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Let's face it: Crusade against homosexuals + hard-core republican tea party member + effeminate voice = The man is a repressed homosexual, he has it tattooed on his face. Personally, I find this stereotype HILARIOUS as it encapsulates modern American politics so perfectly. Y'know, the insane, counter-balance nutjob politician married to the repressed, anti-gay, self-hating homosexual, uniquely American stereotype. And yes, he should be mocked to oblivion. ...not for his voice, but for the blatant, hilarious hypocrisy.
posted by weezy at 9:36 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by weezy at 9:36 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
But the fact that you're advocating for a certain level of nastiness
I am advocating for calling the man out on his very clear hypocrisy.
I have not and am not calling for anyone to make fun of the voice itself (which you would think would be clear considering that I've said it like 5 times in this very thread)
This "but we dont KNOW that he's in the closet" stuff is exactly why we have trouble getting traction here. And this is coming from me, a straight kid that got bullied through all of my schooling for being "faggy"
Bachmann is a big boy and he is deciding to play with this particular fire.
But then, people would rather have their smug self-satisfaction than do the real work of combating these people. And yes it is a combat. She is polling close to Romney right now for chrissakes.
I am saying this is fair game. And I think its far more effective to those poor phantom kids out there dealing with their emerging sexuality to show that these Ex-Gay Therapy types are 99 times out of 10 clearly living lies than it is to worry about whether or not we're becoming a monster by fighting one.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:40 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
I am advocating for calling the man out on his very clear hypocrisy.
I have not and am not calling for anyone to make fun of the voice itself (which you would think would be clear considering that I've said it like 5 times in this very thread)
This "but we dont KNOW that he's in the closet" stuff is exactly why we have trouble getting traction here. And this is coming from me, a straight kid that got bullied through all of my schooling for being "faggy"
Bachmann is a big boy and he is deciding to play with this particular fire.
But then, people would rather have their smug self-satisfaction than do the real work of combating these people. And yes it is a combat. She is polling close to Romney right now for chrissakes.
I am saying this is fair game. And I think its far more effective to those poor phantom kids out there dealing with their emerging sexuality to show that these Ex-Gay Therapy types are 99 times out of 10 clearly living lies than it is to worry about whether or not we're becoming a monster by fighting one.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:40 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
And I've read the MeTa.
If I've said anything off-base or inflammatory in this thread (which I dont really think I have), then flag it and the mods will sort it out. But things in this country are getting worse rather than better and next year thy have the opportunity to get far worse.
I personally believe that we need more fight in our fight and less quibbling over whether the gloves we were wearing were soft enough so as to not offend anybody (heaven fore-fend!)
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:46 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
If I've said anything off-base or inflammatory in this thread (which I dont really think I have), then flag it and the mods will sort it out. But things in this country are getting worse rather than better and next year thy have the opportunity to get far worse.
I personally believe that we need more fight in our fight and less quibbling over whether the gloves we were wearing were soft enough so as to not offend anybody (heaven fore-fend!)
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:46 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
I am advocating for calling the man out on his very clear hypocrisy.
If we punish his hypocrisy by committing hypocrisy of our own, what's the point?
If you want to teach the poor phantom kids that ex-gay therapy types are often living a lie, there's a way to do it without sneering and jeering. Otherwise all they'll learn is that they need to hide their own gayness better than he does.
posted by hermitosis at 9:48 AM on July 11, 2011
If we punish his hypocrisy by committing hypocrisy of our own, what's the point?
If you want to teach the poor phantom kids that ex-gay therapy types are often living a lie, there's a way to do it without sneering and jeering. Otherwise all they'll learn is that they need to hide their own gayness better than he does.
posted by hermitosis at 9:48 AM on July 11, 2011
So I guess it's perfectly OK to use tired gay stereotypes to accuse someone of being gay if we disagree with said person's politics?
posted by gyc at 9:52 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by gyc at 9:52 AM on July 11, 2011
I have work to do.
I feel like we're just going around in circles here.
I'll check back in later.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:54 AM on July 11, 2011
I feel like we're just going around in circles here.
I'll check back in later.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:54 AM on July 11, 2011
If a rabid anti-gay zealot has a gay-sounding, effeminate voice, that is funny. And it's very disingenuous to pretend that it's not funny. It's human nature to notice, point out, ponder, and joke about such incongruities. It's totally fair game. This strict insistence that his gay-sounding voice is off limits is absurd, in my opinion ... Just like it would be absurd to ignore, say, a hypothetical Klan wizard who speaks in a stereotypical American black "ghetto" speech patterns.
The bounds of fair play are not so clear cut as some of you are arguing.
posted by jayder at 10:02 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
The bounds of fair play are not so clear cut as some of you are arguing.
posted by jayder at 10:02 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
But things in this country are getting worse rather than better and next year thy have the opportunity to get far worse.That doesn't seem to be the case with gay rights at all.
posted by delmoi at 10:15 AM on July 11, 2011
But things in this country are getting worse rather than better and
Things are always getting worse. There's even a song about it. And you can dance to it.
posted by philip-random at 10:21 AM on July 11, 2011
Things are always getting worse. There's even a song about it. And you can dance to it.
posted by philip-random at 10:21 AM on July 11, 2011
You know what? I couldn't give two flying shits about Marcus Bachmann's voice or mannerisms. What concerns me is that Michele Bachmann has said repeatedly and in public that she is submissive to Marcus; that she has made career decisions based not on what she thought was a good thing for her to do as a person but on what Marcus thought she should do, and indeed, that she made the two biggest career decisions in her life (IRS tax collector; congresswoman) based on Marcus TELLING her that this is what she should do and PRAYING WITH HER that she see the necessity to obey him; and that the two of them believe and advocate that women should submit to men in all things, as it says in the Bible.
That's what scares me.
posted by blucevalo at 10:23 AM on July 11, 2011 [14 favorites]
That's what scares me.
posted by blucevalo at 10:23 AM on July 11, 2011 [14 favorites]
Am I the only person who thought of this South Park episode when they read "accountability buddy"? (FWIW, I love Butters' speech on the bridge, in which he embraces being "bi-curious" even though he has no idea what that means.)
posted by epersonae at 10:33 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by epersonae at 10:33 AM on July 11, 2011
Michele Bachmann & Rick Santorum Sign 'The Marriage Vow'.
posted by ericb at 10:34 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by ericb at 10:34 AM on July 11, 2011
You want to destroy someone, you attack him where he is most vulnerable and hit him in that spot as hard as you can. He runs a bullshit Christian counseling center that tries to destroy the sexuality of perfectly healthy homosexual men and women?
If your idea of an "attack" is to say, "HAHA he's teh gay!" then you are on his side, doing basically the same work of shaming homosexuals that he's doing.
posted by straight at 10:34 AM on July 11, 2011
If your idea of an "attack" is to say, "HAHA he's teh gay!" then you are on his side, doing basically the same work of shaming homosexuals that he's doing.
posted by straight at 10:34 AM on July 11, 2011
"[Marcus] Bachmann may be dishonest about his practice, but he’s not the one running for president. Yet in describing herself as a small-business owner, Michele Bachmann clearly takes partial credit for Bachmann & Associates, and so its activities reflect on her. Besides, she’s made it clear that Marcus exerts authority over her, telling one church audience that she bowed to her husband’s instructions to study tax law because 'the Lord says be submissive. Wives, you are to be submissive to your husbands.' That means his character and beliefs are more germane to her candidacy than those of other political spouses. He’s the head of the woman who wants to be the head of country. He’s also a man with dubious qualifications running a clinic whose counseling techniques can ruin lives."*posted by ericb at 10:45 AM on July 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
If your idea of an "attack" is to say, "HAHA he's teh gay!" then you are on his side, doing basically the same work of shaming homosexuals that he's doing.
If my idea of an "attack" is to say, "This Republican contender for the Presidential nomination considers her slavish devotion to Family Values[tm] and Traditional Marriage[tm] to be one of her primary assets for consideration for that position, yet not only is she married to (and self-admittedly overly 'obedient' to) a rabid anti-gay zealot, but said anti-gay zealot has a substantial likelihood of being a practicing homosexual himself, bringing into question whether the core of her belief system (her Good Christian Marriage[tm]) is at best existing only because of extreme denial on both their parts, at worst an elaborate sham perpetuated for the sake of political advancement and wealth acquisition," what then?
Well, first you'd say "man, you're a wordy blowhard." But I digress.
If he is in fact the next Ted Haggard, I wish him well in untangling his desires and thought processes and living his life in a happier and more honest manner. However, if he is, this _matters_ for this election, much more so for someone campaigning on the Vote For Me Because I'm Moral and Christian platform than for a typical politician.
posted by delfin at 10:49 AM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
If my idea of an "attack" is to say, "This Republican contender for the Presidential nomination considers her slavish devotion to Family Values[tm] and Traditional Marriage[tm] to be one of her primary assets for consideration for that position, yet not only is she married to (and self-admittedly overly 'obedient' to) a rabid anti-gay zealot, but said anti-gay zealot has a substantial likelihood of being a practicing homosexual himself, bringing into question whether the core of her belief system (her Good Christian Marriage[tm]) is at best existing only because of extreme denial on both their parts, at worst an elaborate sham perpetuated for the sake of political advancement and wealth acquisition," what then?
Well, first you'd say "man, you're a wordy blowhard." But I digress.
If he is in fact the next Ted Haggard, I wish him well in untangling his desires and thought processes and living his life in a happier and more honest manner. However, if he is, this _matters_ for this election, much more so for someone campaigning on the Vote For Me Because I'm Moral and Christian platform than for a typical politician.
posted by delfin at 10:49 AM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
"One more thing … the LGBT community has been calling out others quite a bit in the past two years for anti-LGBT bullying. The assumption that a child might be gay because of the way he or she acts or speaks or even walks, has caused some horrific retribution from classmates, teachers and even parents generation after generation.posted by ericb at 10:52 AM on July 11, 2011
'Dr.' Marcus Bachmann’s sexuality is known only to him and whoever else he wants to know. Some are concerned that our assumptions about him based on the way he acts, speaks and walks might be hypocritical and might be a bad message to send young people — that he should be called 'gay' simply because of his mannerisms.
It’s a tough discussion, because no, we absolutely should not make assumptions based on outdated stereotypes.
But at the same time, Bachmann himself has inadvertently alluded to the fact he might be gay on more than one occasion by using the 'we' pronoun instead of 'they,' and with hints like that, coupled with the fact that he is a public figure potentially responsible for the suicide of LGBT people, his actions and possible hypocrisy must be spoken about openly."*
I am advocating for calling the man out on his very clear hypocrisy.
If that was what you were advocating it would be fine. What you're actually doing is asserting that the hypocrisy exists because he MUST be a big ol' flaming gay because of his speech and mannerisms. So based on that proof of his gay-ness he's a hypocrite.
And that's bullshit, and it's unacceptable because it involves doing a loathsome thing - telling other people what their sexuality is because of your observations of them - that is so often the tool of our enemies. And when you use it in this context you legitimize it. And that's a problem.
posted by phearlez at 10:56 AM on July 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
If that was what you were advocating it would be fine. What you're actually doing is asserting that the hypocrisy exists because he MUST be a big ol' flaming gay because of his speech and mannerisms. So based on that proof of his gay-ness he's a hypocrite.
And that's bullshit, and it's unacceptable because it involves doing a loathsome thing - telling other people what their sexuality is because of your observations of them - that is so often the tool of our enemies. And when you use it in this context you legitimize it. And that's a problem.
posted by phearlez at 10:56 AM on July 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
If your idea of an "attack" is to say, "HAHA he's teh gay!" then you are on his side, doing basically the same work of shaming homosexuals that he's doing.
I'm going to point out the argument that was made by the movie Outrage. Conservative politicians create a bubble of privilege for their own personal "quirks" while using them to whip up anti-gay voter sentiment.
So when we out anti-gay politicians, it's not to shame them for being homosexual. It's to shame them for using homophobia to build their little castles of privilege. Or in Mr. Bachmann's case, he's profiteering on pseudo-scientific treatment of traits that he demonstrates.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:58 AM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm going to point out the argument that was made by the movie Outrage. Conservative politicians create a bubble of privilege for their own personal "quirks" while using them to whip up anti-gay voter sentiment.
So when we out anti-gay politicians, it's not to shame them for being homosexual. It's to shame them for using homophobia to build their little castles of privilege. Or in Mr. Bachmann's case, he's profiteering on pseudo-scientific treatment of traits that he demonstrates.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:58 AM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Does anyone else assume he is gay not from his mannerisms but from the fact that he claims to be an "ex gay" or the fact that he claims to be an ex-gay therapist? I haven't ever heard the man speak, seen him move, or even gotte a clear look at a picture, but I *do* feel entirely justified in assuming he is gay entirely because of his public claims on the nature of homosexuality. I believe that it is highly unlikely that anyone that highly involved in christian gay conversion "therapy" is not in fact a closet gay, and does this sort of thing out of an intense self-loathing.
Is that not fair?
posted by leviathan3k at 11:02 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Is that not fair?
posted by leviathan3k at 11:02 AM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
...she is crazy and says crazy things with her crazy mouth...
“I find it interesting that it was back in the 1970s that the swine flu broke out then under another Democrat president Jimmy Carter. And I’m not blaming this on President Obama, I just think it’s an interesting coincidence.”posted by ericb at 11:02 AM on July 11, 2011 [14 favorites]
“I’m a foreign correspondent on enemy lines, and I try to let everyone back here in Minnesota know exactly the nefarious activities that are taking place in Washington.”
“But we also know that the very founders that wrote those documents worked tirelessly until slavery was no more in the United States.” .
“Pelosi is committed to her global warming fanatacism to the point where she has even said she is trying to save the planet. We all know someone did that 2,000 years ago.”
“This is a very serious matter, because it is our children who are the prize for this community, they are specifically targeting our children.”
“It’s part of Satan I think to say that this is “gay.” It’s anything but “gay.”
“If you’re involved in the gay and lesbian lifestyle, it’s bondage. It is personal bondage, personal despair and personal enslavement.”
“Don’t misunderstand. I am not here bashing people who are homosexuals, who are lesbians, who are bisexual, who are transgender. We need to have profound compassion for people who are dealing with the very real issue of sexual dysfunction in their life and sexual identity disorders.”*
How desperate does this picture look, having his wife sit on his lap?
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:12 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:12 AM on July 11, 2011
Eventually everyone involved in ex-gay therapy will realize heterosexual men do not have to force themselves every second of every day to enjoy sex with women.
That's it, exactly. That's how he's outing himself. Bachmann's argument that people become gay because of a permissive culture indicates that he fundamentally doesn't understand straight sexuality.
I don't have to tell myself that gay sex is wrong or evil in order to avoid it-- I don't want to have it. Because I'm straight. Anyone who has to remind themselves " hey, gay sex acts are not appropriate" is not straight. Gay sex doesn't occur to straight people, the same way that, say, men don't think about tampons unless they are specifically mentioned in conversation.
You know how when you're a kid and there's a condition to your home life that isn't typical and it takes you years to realize it? Say your parents fed the dog in the bathroom, because the floor was easier to wipe than the kitchen's. If you never saw your friends' parents feeding their dog, you might think it was normal to feed the dog in the bathroom until you mentioned it as an adult and your friends said "What? People don't do that."
Because he has homosexual urges but could never admit to himself that he is indeed gay, he has extrapolated that straight people are consciously rejecting homosexual urges. That is not the case. Every time Bachmann says that straights are making a choice to reject homosexuality, he is saying "I have homosexual urges, but I do not act on them because homosexuals are animals who cannot control their urges." Therefore, he is not straight.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:14 AM on July 11, 2011 [41 favorites]
That's it, exactly. That's how he's outing himself. Bachmann's argument that people become gay because of a permissive culture indicates that he fundamentally doesn't understand straight sexuality.
I don't have to tell myself that gay sex is wrong or evil in order to avoid it-- I don't want to have it. Because I'm straight. Anyone who has to remind themselves " hey, gay sex acts are not appropriate" is not straight. Gay sex doesn't occur to straight people, the same way that, say, men don't think about tampons unless they are specifically mentioned in conversation.
You know how when you're a kid and there's a condition to your home life that isn't typical and it takes you years to realize it? Say your parents fed the dog in the bathroom, because the floor was easier to wipe than the kitchen's. If you never saw your friends' parents feeding their dog, you might think it was normal to feed the dog in the bathroom until you mentioned it as an adult and your friends said "What? People don't do that."
Because he has homosexual urges but could never admit to himself that he is indeed gay, he has extrapolated that straight people are consciously rejecting homosexual urges. That is not the case. Every time Bachmann says that straights are making a choice to reject homosexuality, he is saying "I have homosexual urges, but I do not act on them because homosexuals are animals who cannot control their urges." Therefore, he is not straight.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:14 AM on July 11, 2011 [41 favorites]
So when we out anti-gay politicians, it's not to shame them for being homosexual. It's to shame them for using homophobia to build their little castles of privilege.
1. It still seems bad to attack someone for being homophobic and gay, as if the and gay part makes it worse. It's seems sort of like attacking Michelle Bachman for being crazy and a woman.
2. "That guy talks funny" =/= outing.
posted by straight at 11:15 AM on July 11, 2011
1. It still seems bad to attack someone for being homophobic and gay, as if the and gay part makes it worse. It's seems sort of like attacking Michelle Bachman for being crazy and a woman.
2. "That guy talks funny" =/= outing.
posted by straight at 11:15 AM on July 11, 2011
Gay sex doesn't occur to straight people...
Family Research Council founder Paul Cameron begs to difffer:
Family Research Council founder Paul Cameron begs to difffer:
"Untrammeled homosexuality can take over and destroy a social system. If you isolate sexuality as something solely for one's own personal amusement, and all you want is the most satisfying orgasm you can get - and that is what homosexuality seems to be - then homosexuality seems too powerful to resist. The evidence is that men do a better job on men and women on women, if all you are looking for is orgasm .... It's pure sexuality. It's almost like pure heroin. It's such a rush. . . . Marital sex tends toward the boring end. Generally, it doesn't deliver the kind of sheer sexual pleasure that homosexual sex does."posted by ericb at 11:19 AM on July 11, 2011 [6 favorites]
It still seems bad to attack someone for being homophobic and gay, as if the and gay part makes it worse.
It's darkly humorous and mockable in a Dave Chappelle's Blind Black Klansman sketch kind of way. Or, at least, it would be more humorous if it wasn't coming from someone who's not only making money shaming others for 'suffering' from this 'disorder,' but suggesting that he and his wife's belief that it is shameful to be gay qualifies her to be the next Leader of the Free World.
The evidence is that men do a better job on men and women on women, if all you are looking for is orgasm .... It's pure sexuality. It's almost like pure heroin. It's such a rush. . .
ಠ_ಠ
And he knows this... how, again?
posted by delfin at 11:22 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
It's darkly humorous and mockable in a Dave Chappelle's Blind Black Klansman sketch kind of way. Or, at least, it would be more humorous if it wasn't coming from someone who's not only making money shaming others for 'suffering' from this 'disorder,' but suggesting that he and his wife's belief that it is shameful to be gay qualifies her to be the next Leader of the Free World.
The evidence is that men do a better job on men and women on women, if all you are looking for is orgasm .... It's pure sexuality. It's almost like pure heroin. It's such a rush. . .
ಠ_ಠ
And he knows this... how, again?
posted by delfin at 11:22 AM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
as if the and gay part makes it worse.
No, it does make it worse. It goes from mere nastiness to betrayal.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2011
No, it does make it worse. It goes from mere nastiness to betrayal.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2011
The first thing I thought was, "Ex-gays? Aw man, now somebody's gonna have to regay all those folks."
Then I thought, "I'd watch a TV show that was a gay strike force going around to re-gay the ex-gays."
Then I thought, "There's probably already a porno based on that."
If not, it can't be that hard to write a script for gay porn.
posted by klangklangston at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2011 [15 favorites]
Then I thought, "I'd watch a TV show that was a gay strike force going around to re-gay the ex-gays."
Then I thought, "There's probably already a porno based on that."
If not, it can't be that hard to write a script for gay porn.
posted by klangklangston at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2011 [15 favorites]
Family Research Council founder Paul Cameron begs to difffer:
Paul sounds a little bit gay there.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:27 AM on July 11, 2011
Paul sounds a little bit gay there.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:27 AM on July 11, 2011
ericb: Exactly! The whole time I read that, I'm thinking the guy is a flaming closet homosexual. Would it really be a bad thing to associate *these* kinds of actions with being blatantly closeted?
posted by leviathan3k at 11:27 AM on July 11, 2011
posted by leviathan3k at 11:27 AM on July 11, 2011
Also, if there is one thing I would like to see done away with in my lifetime (though I am sure it will not happen), it will be society's insistence that human sexuality is a strict and unchanging binary variable.
It's like the 'one drop of black blood makes you black' thing in sexual terms. Somewhere in between Team Forever Pink and Team Forever Blue there's a lot of purple to be explained.
posted by delfin at 11:27 AM on July 11, 2011 [7 favorites]
It's like the 'one drop of black blood makes you black' thing in sexual terms. Somewhere in between Team Forever Pink and Team Forever Blue there's a lot of purple to be explained.
posted by delfin at 11:27 AM on July 11, 2011 [7 favorites]
then homosexuality seems too powerful to resist.
Uhh, no. Not really. It doesn't even really hit my radar. Though after reading that quote, I honestly wonder if Cameron isn't hiding something, because... well, that quote sounded like someone with some pretty strongly held opinions.
posted by quin at 11:39 AM on July 11, 2011
Uhh, no. Not really. It doesn't even really hit my radar. Though after reading that quote, I honestly wonder if Cameron isn't hiding something, because... well, that quote sounded like someone with some pretty strongly held opinions.
posted by quin at 11:39 AM on July 11, 2011
Marital sex tends toward the boring end. Generally, it doesn't deliver the kind of sheer sexual pleasure that homosexual sex does.
Whoa, I guess I'm doing the marital sex rong, because it's pretty pleasurable. Enough so that I hadn't really considered the alternative at all. That must be a pretty happy mindspace to have to live in.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:18 PM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Whoa, I guess I'm doing the marital sex rong, because it's pretty pleasurable. Enough so that I hadn't really considered the alternative at all. That must be a pretty happy mindspace to have to live in.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:18 PM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Then I thought, "I'd watch a TV show that was a gay strike force going around to re-gay the ex-gays."
Well, there was Richard Moll in But I'm A Cheerleader...
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:43 PM on July 11, 2011
Well, there was Richard Moll in But I'm A Cheerleader...
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:43 PM on July 11, 2011
homosexuality accountability buddy
This concept reminds me of some comic's bit about how you always knew you'd gotten the gay priest for confession when he said, breathlessly, "So then what happened?"
posted by orange swan at 1:04 PM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
This concept reminds me of some comic's bit about how you always knew you'd gotten the gay priest for confession when he said, breathlessly, "So then what happened?"
posted by orange swan at 1:04 PM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
Bachmann now leads Romney in Iowa straw poll:
"Bachmann received support from 25 percent of likely Iowa caucus goers in the poll, while Romney is backed by 21 percent. The poll also shows signs of growth for former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, who now stands in third place in statistical tie with Herman Cain at just under nine percent. Ron Paul finished with six percent, Newt Gingrich with four percent, Rick Santorum with two percent, and Jon Huntsman rounded out the field with one percent."posted by ericb at 1:19 PM on July 11, 2011
Well, punctuation of PhD is a style issue, but the rest is scary.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 1:42 PM on July 11, 2011
posted by KirkJobSluder at 1:42 PM on July 11, 2011
Paul Cameron in ericb's link:
" If you isolate sexuality as something solely for one's own personal amusement, and all you want is the most satisfying orgasm you can get - and that is what homosexuality seems to be - then homosexuality seems too powerful to resist...
See, that's the exact thing I was getting had. How does he have any credibility among anyone except the deeply closeted and religious asexuals? Anyone with a sex drive and a bit of self-awareness knows that's false. Why aren't the straight Christians who write him checks hearing that and saying:
"What? No! The most satisfying orgasm I could get would not be with someone of the same sex, because you have to become AROUSED before you have an orgasm! Why is your view on this so removed from my confidently straight mindset? ... Oh. Umm. Shit, how much money did I give this guy?"
I feel embarrassed for these guys, and I would even feel sad if they didn't turn their irrational hatred of who they are into external ire. I'm sure on some level they're very jealous of gay people who can acknowledge their sexuality and are free to spend their lives with partners who actually complete them. People like Bachmann and Cameron are the real barbarians-- they see something beautiful (people getting the love that they want) and they can't have it so they try to destroy it instead.
posted by Mayor Curley at 1:49 PM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
" If you isolate sexuality as something solely for one's own personal amusement, and all you want is the most satisfying orgasm you can get - and that is what homosexuality seems to be - then homosexuality seems too powerful to resist...
See, that's the exact thing I was getting had. How does he have any credibility among anyone except the deeply closeted and religious asexuals? Anyone with a sex drive and a bit of self-awareness knows that's false. Why aren't the straight Christians who write him checks hearing that and saying:
"What? No! The most satisfying orgasm I could get would not be with someone of the same sex, because you have to become AROUSED before you have an orgasm! Why is your view on this so removed from my confidently straight mindset? ... Oh. Umm. Shit, how much money did I give this guy?"
I feel embarrassed for these guys, and I would even feel sad if they didn't turn their irrational hatred of who they are into external ire. I'm sure on some level they're very jealous of gay people who can acknowledge their sexuality and are free to spend their lives with partners who actually complete them. People like Bachmann and Cameron are the real barbarians-- they see something beautiful (people getting the love that they want) and they can't have it so they try to destroy it instead.
posted by Mayor Curley at 1:49 PM on July 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
hydropsyche: attacking Mr. Bachmann for sounding 'effeminate' is one of the many ways that homophobia walks hand in hand with misogyny.
Here's another: That THE FAM***i***LY LEADER pledge that Michelle Bachmann et al have signed? Vyckie Garrison, former Quiverfull believer:
Women's rights? Gay rights? Piffle. Tools of satan. /sarcasm
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:49 PM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Here's another: That THE FAM***i***LY LEADER pledge that Michelle Bachmann et al have signed? Vyckie Garrison, former Quiverfull believer:
Notice that in their logo, in The Marriage Vow document, and throughout their website, the “I” in FAMiLY is never capitalized? . . . women who are unwilling to subordinate and sacrifice themselves to populate America’s economic and political war machine are selfish with a capital “I” - s.e.l.f.I.s.h.
Female self-abnegation is a core principle of the growing “Quiverfull” contingent of the Evangelical community’s “Biblical Family Values” movement which calls upon submissive wives to stay at home to conceive and birth large quantities of ”foot soldiers for Jesus” to advance the Kingdom of God on earth.
Women's rights? Gay rights? Piffle. Tools of satan. /sarcasm
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:49 PM on July 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
How desperate does this picture look, having his wife sit on his lap?
Not desperate at all if both the husband and wife believe that the woman's proper role is to perch on the man's lap and smile toothily at the camera.
posted by blucevalo at 2:05 PM on July 11, 2011
Not desperate at all if both the husband and wife believe that the woman's proper role is to perch on the man's lap and smile toothily at the camera.
posted by blucevalo at 2:05 PM on July 11, 2011
Mayor Curley I don't have to tell myself that gay sex is wrong or evil in order to avoid it-- I don't want to have it. Because I'm straight. Anyone who has to remind themselves "hey, gay sex acts are not appropriate" is not straight.
It's a fair point, but not the whole story. Sex(uality) is complex. "Gay", "straight", or "actually gay but pretending to be straight for social status reasons" are not the only possibilities (this view ignores bisexuality entirely), and the importance of presented gender as a determinant of attractiveness also varies.
However, such nuances are beyond the comprehension of the Bachmanns and similar troglodytes. Their view of sexuality is not merely an ignorant view based on a subset of the available evidence, it's outright counterfactual, based on assertions that have nothing to do with evidence at all. To Marcus, to experience sexual attraction to anyone other than his (apparently not emotionally, intellectually, morally, or physically appalling to him) wife is sinful, and to act on it, even more sinful. Those sins are ranked in severity, by consensus if not necessarily by dogma, and of these sins, acting on it is worse than thinking about it; and sex with any male is considered worse than sex with a female.
Marcus displays many obvious characteristics that are stereotypically associated with gay men: the voice, the walk, the "gayface". We, being relatively rational people who struggle daily to base our opinions on evidence (and when we catch ourselves doing otherwise, self-flagellate and resolve to do better), would look at Marcus and say that he is as gay as Elton John. He, and those like him, would look at Marcus and say that he struggles mightily to resist the sin that Elton John indulges.
My point there is that it isn't going to be productive to point out to him, and to those like him, that Marcus is gay. They "know that". It is information that they are aware of, in their context for being aware of that information. Of course those men who struggle most with the sin, are most dedicated to fighting it; and naturally, the greater their experience in that fight, the more of that experience they have to give to others.
The division between people who "think like this", and people who "think like that", is much more fundamental. It is about what we, or they, are able and willing to do with facts.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 3:33 PM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's a fair point, but not the whole story. Sex(uality) is complex. "Gay", "straight", or "actually gay but pretending to be straight for social status reasons" are not the only possibilities (this view ignores bisexuality entirely), and the importance of presented gender as a determinant of attractiveness also varies.
However, such nuances are beyond the comprehension of the Bachmanns and similar troglodytes. Their view of sexuality is not merely an ignorant view based on a subset of the available evidence, it's outright counterfactual, based on assertions that have nothing to do with evidence at all. To Marcus, to experience sexual attraction to anyone other than his (apparently not emotionally, intellectually, morally, or physically appalling to him) wife is sinful, and to act on it, even more sinful. Those sins are ranked in severity, by consensus if not necessarily by dogma, and of these sins, acting on it is worse than thinking about it; and sex with any male is considered worse than sex with a female.
Marcus displays many obvious characteristics that are stereotypically associated with gay men: the voice, the walk, the "gayface". We, being relatively rational people who struggle daily to base our opinions on evidence (and when we catch ourselves doing otherwise, self-flagellate and resolve to do better), would look at Marcus and say that he is as gay as Elton John. He, and those like him, would look at Marcus and say that he struggles mightily to resist the sin that Elton John indulges.
My point there is that it isn't going to be productive to point out to him, and to those like him, that Marcus is gay. They "know that". It is information that they are aware of, in their context for being aware of that information. Of course those men who struggle most with the sin, are most dedicated to fighting it; and naturally, the greater their experience in that fight, the more of that experience they have to give to others.
The division between people who "think like this", and people who "think like that", is much more fundamental. It is about what we, or they, are able and willing to do with facts.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 3:33 PM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
“If you’re involved in the gay and lesbian lifestyle, it’s bondage. It is personal bondage..."
Yes, it is. Personal, delicious bondage.
posted by spinifex23 at 5:13 PM on July 11, 2011
Yes, it is. Personal, delicious bondage.
posted by spinifex23 at 5:13 PM on July 11, 2011
You can't really blame Minnesota as a whole for Bachman. Her district is gerrymandered to give all the surrounding democrats safe seats. So her district is super-hard-core republican.
posted by delmoi at 6:19 PM on July 11, 2011
posted by delmoi at 6:19 PM on July 11, 2011
If that was what you were advocating it would be fine. What you're actually doing is asserting that the hypocrisy exists because he MUST be a big ol' flaming gay because of his speech and mannerisms. So based on that proof of his gay-ness he's a hypocrite.First of all I don't really know if there's a real connection between these mannerisms and the gay. There are a lot of regional mannerisms that can seem gay. Like upper class British or upper-class deep southern guys sometimes.
But that said, if he was a repressed homosexual, then it wouldn't make him a hypocrite if he had a gay orientation that he actually fought off. It would mean he was actually practicing what he preached. It would actually be more hypocritical if he was a straight guy doing this.
But yeah, I think he's probably got issues. It's hard to imagine a straight guy taking that much interest in curing homosexuals. It's just creepy. Does he treat lesbians, or just gay men?
posted by delmoi at 6:30 PM on July 11, 2011
You can't really blame Minnesota as a whole for Bachman. Her district is gerrymandered to give all the surrounding democrats safe seats. So her district is super-hard-core republican.
I can certainly blame the rest of Minnesota for engaging in that sort of gerrymandering. The fact that it creates incubation dishes that grow politicians like Bachman and inflict them on the rest of us is one of gerrymandering's lesser evils.
posted by straight at 6:56 PM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I can certainly blame the rest of Minnesota for engaging in that sort of gerrymandering. The fact that it creates incubation dishes that grow politicians like Bachman and inflict them on the rest of us is one of gerrymandering's lesser evils.
posted by straight at 6:56 PM on July 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
[Homosexual acts are] pure sexuality. It's almost like pure heroin. It's such a rush. . . . Marital sex tends toward the boring end. Generally, it doesn't deliver the kind of sheer sexual pleasure that homosexual sex does."
So does that make Gay Marriage the Methadone of sex?
posted by WhackyparseThis at 3:39 AM on July 12, 2011
So does that make Gay Marriage the Methadone of sex?
posted by WhackyparseThis at 3:39 AM on July 12, 2011
ABC Nightline : Michelle Bachmann's Family Business Exposed.
posted by ericb at 5:51 AM on July 12, 2011
posted by ericb at 5:51 AM on July 12, 2011
Not desperate at all if both the husband and wife believe that the woman's proper role is to perch on the man's lap and smile toothily at the camera.
President of the United States of America.
And could the pose look any more uncomfortable and awkward.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:59 AM on July 12, 2011
President of the United States of America.
And could the pose look any more uncomfortable and awkward.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:59 AM on July 12, 2011
Bachmann: I’m ‘Very Proud’ Of Husband’s Ex-Gay Therapy Clinics.
posted by ericb at 11:08 AM on July 12, 2011
posted by ericb at 11:08 AM on July 12, 2011
One word: yeesh.
posted by gorgor_balabala at 1:48 PM on July 12, 2011
posted by gorgor_balabala at 1:48 PM on July 12, 2011
You can't really blame Minnesota as a whole for Bachman[n]. Her district is gerrymandered to give all the surrounding democrats safe seats. So her district is super-hard-core republican.
You call that a gerrymandered district? Look at the 22nd here in NY. It's like someone went to insane, sadistic lengths to make sure my dad and I (in Newburgh and Ithaca respectively) -- whose politics are alas very different -- would be in the same district.
posted by aught at 1:57 PM on July 12, 2011
You call that a gerrymandered district? Look at the 22nd here in NY. It's like someone went to insane, sadistic lengths to make sure my dad and I (in Newburgh and Ithaca respectively) -- whose politics are alas very different -- would be in the same district.
posted by aught at 1:57 PM on July 12, 2011
You call that a gerrymandered district? Look at the 22nd here in NY.
Actually, they look similar in shape. The major difference is the MN district is engineered to miss any of the Twin Cities themselves to avoid diluting those heavily blue areas.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:01 PM on July 12, 2011
Actually, they look similar in shape. The major difference is the MN district is engineered to miss any of the Twin Cities themselves to avoid diluting those heavily blue areas.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:01 PM on July 12, 2011
"Well, I checked my Evil Gauge, and it says I'm comfortably in the yellow. Whew."
posted by Etrigan
Eponhysterical!
posted by Scoo at 5:23 PM on July 13, 2011
posted by Etrigan
Eponhysterical!
posted by Scoo at 5:23 PM on July 13, 2011
If it came to light that she'd hired a hit man, would she just blather on about how she was creating jobs?
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:41 PM on July 13, 2011
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:41 PM on July 13, 2011
Michele Bachmann's 'Satanic' Lesbian Stepsister at Obama's Inauguration: VIDEO.
posted by ericb at 9:29 AM on July 15, 2011
posted by ericb at 9:29 AM on July 15, 2011
Marcus Bachmann Defends Clinic's 'Ex-Gay' Therapy, Claims Tape on Which He Called Gays 'Barbarians' Was Doctored.
posted by ericb at 9:31 AM on July 15, 2011
posted by ericb at 9:31 AM on July 15, 2011
For Bachmann, Gay Rights Stand Reflects Mix of Issues and Faith.
posted by ericb at 1:41 PM on July 17, 2011
posted by ericb at 1:41 PM on July 17, 2011
Marcus Bachmann's obvious obsession explains why Michele Bachmann is so dead set against gay marriage. If it becomes legal, Marcus could marry someone he physically desires, and where would that leave poor Michele?
Is it possible that this the lens through which many opponents view gay marriage, seeing the wreckage that occurs when gay partners leave their opposite sex marriages? The confusion opponents have is that these marriages wouldn't occur in the first place did society not stigmatize natural inclinations to same sex partners.
posted by Mental Wimp at 8:10 AM on July 18, 2011
Is it possible that this the lens through which many opponents view gay marriage, seeing the wreckage that occurs when gay partners leave their opposite sex marriages? The confusion opponents have is that these marriages wouldn't occur in the first place did society not stigmatize natural inclinations to same sex partners.
posted by Mental Wimp at 8:10 AM on July 18, 2011
Gay ‘Barbarians’ Demand Ex-Gay ‘Discipline’ from Bachmann Clinic.
posted by ericb at 9:22 AM on July 21, 2011
posted by ericb at 9:22 AM on July 21, 2011
Randy Rainbow Is Not Getting Married (To Marcus Bachmann).
posted by ericb at 11:10 AM on July 25, 2011
posted by ericb at 11:10 AM on July 25, 2011
The Teen Suicide Epidemic in Michele Bachmann's District: Two years. Nine suicides. Why critics blame the congresswoman's anti-gay allies for contributing to a mental health crisis.
posted by homunculus at 9:36 AM on July 26, 2011
posted by homunculus at 9:36 AM on July 26, 2011
Bachmann, Bullying Legislation Foe, Silent On Teen Suicides In Her District.
posted by ericb at 12:15 PM on July 26, 2011
posted by ericb at 12:15 PM on July 26, 2011
Site Offers $10,000 for Proof That Marcus Bachmann is Gay.
posted by ericb at 12:17 PM on July 26, 2011
posted by ericb at 12:17 PM on July 26, 2011
Bachmann Anti-Gay Ally Sues Rachel Maddow For $50 Million
posted by homunculus at 9:44 AM on July 27, 2011
posted by homunculus at 9:44 AM on July 27, 2011
« Older Logic. Do you speak it? | He answers without a second of hesitation or a... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by honeydew at 7:43 AM on July 11, 2011 [3 favorites]