Rick Perry's Army of God

July 14, 2011 3:29 PM

"If they simply professed unusual beliefs, movement leaders wouldn’t be remarkable. But what makes the New Apostolic Reformation movement so potent is its growing fascination with infiltrating politics and government. The new prophets and apostles believe Christians—certain Christians—are destined to not just take 'dominion' over government, but stealthily climb to the commanding heights of what they term the 'Seven Mountains' of society, including the media and the arts and entertainment world. They believe they’re intended to lord over it all. As a first step, they’re leading an 'army of God' to commandeer civilian government. In Rick Perry, they may have found their vessel. And the interest appears to be mutual." Previously. Via.
posted by brundlefly (136 comments total)

The movement is called the New Apostolic Reformation. Believers fashion themselves modern-day prophets and apostles. They have taken Pentecostalism, with its emphasis on ecstatic worship and the supernatural, and given it an adrenaline shot.

Oh my.
posted by angrycat at 3:34 PM on July 14, 2011

That makes my heart hurt.
posted by bz at 3:35 PM on July 14, 2011

Lemme guess, they think the status quo where everyone has to profess some form of deep connection to the Christian faith to get elected president is just too secular?
posted by mccarty.tim at 3:36 PM on July 14, 2011 [35 favorites]

So you have to wonder: Is Rick Perry God’s man for president?

I would hope God would have better taste than to pick a guy with blank, button eyes, but I have to admit that I am not God, so what do I know? They say he works in mysterious ways, and that would be pretty darned mysterious.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:36 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I like to think God would vote Nader, just to send a message.
posted by mccarty.tim at 3:38 PM on July 14, 2011 [11 favorites]

I would hope God would have better taste than to pick a guy with blank, button eyes, but I have to admit that I am not God, so what do I know? They say he works in mysterious ways, and that would be pretty darned mysterious.

So basically he's a character from Coraline.
posted by 2bucksplus at 3:42 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

So basically he's a character from Coraline.

Well, without the charm. Then again, he's George Bush without the charm...
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:44 PM on July 14, 2011

Yeah, okay. These guys are nutjobs. It's like a weird, perverted sort of Kuyperian, neo-Calvinist sphere sovereignty, only without the "Kuyperian" or "neo-Calvinist" parts, i.e. anything that could remotely be described as "philosophy" or "theology". It seems to be some kind of offshoot of what amounts to a motivational speaking outfit with no real connections to anything that could even generously be described as a "church".

In other words, they're completely making shit up. Completely off the reservation, ecclesiologically speaking. Zero organic or institutional connection with the historic Christian faith.
posted by valkyryn at 3:45 PM on July 14, 2011 [11 favorites]

I tried to read this, I really did. I got several paragraphs in and the feeling of depression and horror that washed over me was so enormous that I couldn't continue. It's like reading about some of the nuttier monks in the Middle Ages and their relic and prohecy fetishes. But at least there I can smugly reflect that no longer do I have to live in a world where a wanker king can conquer my country as the anointed of God and with the full approval of some semi-literature cleric preaching from a repurposed pagan temple.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 3:45 PM on July 14, 2011 [9 favorites]

From the article:

The Democratic Party, one prominent member believes, is controlled by Jezebel and three lesser demons

Aha. Ha.
posted by angrycat at 3:46 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Religion is long dead, it's only a branch of stealth politics now.
posted by Brian B. at 3:49 PM on July 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

The "Seven Mountains" are:

(1) Business
(2) Government
(3) Media
(4) Arts and Entertainment
(5) Education
(6) Family
(7) Religion

Drawing a blank on how they expect do dominate #4. You just can't do that one without teh Gays.
posted by contessa at 3:50 PM on July 14, 2011 [6 favorites]

Are these the folks that have taken over the Texas textbook commission, or whatever it's called?
posted by bz at 3:50 PM on July 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I think they're just LARPing as some kind of spiritual warriors who fight demons.
posted by melt away at 3:52 PM on July 14, 2011 [8 favorites]

There's a book these guys should read that has a part about a guy who everyone thinks is going to be a religious and political leader and overthrow the government to establish a righteous political regime, but it turns out he doesn't care at all about the government and just teaches people to be good to each other and to not get caught up with criticizing others about their sins, while simultaneously criticizing professional clergy and the religious establishment. I can't remember what it's called, though. If I remember, I'll be sure to follow up.
posted by The World Famous at 3:53 PM on July 14, 2011 [142 favorites]

I think they're just LARPing as some kind of spiritual warriors who fight demons.

You mean like in Frailty?
posted by gurple at 3:56 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

gurple - sure but I hope that's not the surprise ending of Frailty or something because I haven't watched it yet.
posted by melt away at 3:59 PM on July 14, 2011

I have personally met at least one of the people referenced in that article, and I know people who know most of them. (Two of them spoke at my church a decade ago.)

If you don't believe in the power of prayer, no need to be worried about what any of these people are up to. If you DO believe in the power of prayer, you aren't worried about what any of these people are up to.

If you have questions about the religious beliefs referenced, I'll try to answer from my basis of understanding.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:00 PM on July 14, 2011

I don't know if they're still available online, but the Observer's older coverage of Perry pieces together the picture of an underachieving party boy who rose through the ranks only because of vacancies left by others (Bob Bullock's death, Bush's decision to run for president). He's also followed in the Bush model of displaying a carefully crafted image of piety and using it as a sort of political chit, as well as courting/catering to religious big wigs in the same way that other politicians get in bed with, say, the unions. It's all a means to an end. It's not a real faith for him, though from a distance it's impossible to tell the difference (and doesn't make it any less scary).
posted by mudpuppie at 4:00 PM on July 14, 2011

(Let me mention I don't know jack turkey about Rick Perry. Have no clue whatsoever whether he is using these people or he is sincere. )
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:02 PM on July 14, 2011

If you DO believe in the power of prayer, you aren't worried about what any of these people are up to.

Wouldn't some people who believe in the power of prayer have issues with this kind of intermingling of faith and politics?
posted by brundlefly at 4:03 PM on July 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

“It sounds so fringe but yet it’s not fringe,” Tabachnick says. “They’ve been working with Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Michele Bachmann, Sam Brownback, and now Rick Perry. ... They are becoming much more politically noticeable.”

All perfectly normal people with completely mainstream platforms. Not fringe at all!
posted by contessa at 4:03 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

St. Alia, does it trouble you that these guys are heavily involved in politics? It's not meant to be a loaded question -- I wonder as somebody who knows them personally what your take on it is.

Also, would you say that their religious beliefs are represented accurately in the article?
posted by angrycat at 4:03 PM on July 14, 2011

If you don't believe in the power of prayer, no need to be worried about what any of these people are up to.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:00 PM on July 14

Well, except that they believe "if America didn’t return to biblical values and support Israel, God would cause a 'tumbling of the economy and dark days will come,'" and they're working with people who are doing their level best to bring about a tumbling of the economy and dark days. If all they were doing was praying, they could safely be ignored.
posted by joannemerriam at 4:03 PM on July 14, 2011 [14 favorites]

Rick Perry Wants To Leave Government ‘In God’s Hands,’ Says ‘God, You’re Gonna Have To Fix This’
posted by homunculus at 4:05 PM on July 14, 2011

But to be fair, these guys are totally anti New World Order
posted by tittergrrl at 4:06 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

So you have to wonder: Is Rick Perry God’s man for president?

God doesn't believe in presidents.
posted by philip-random at 4:06 PM on July 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

That heat is really getting to them. Dehydration, perhaps.
posted by perhapses at 4:09 PM on July 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Rick Perry Partners With 'Apostle' Who Thinks The Statue Of Liberty Is A 'Demonic Idol'
posted by brundlefly at 4:11 PM on July 14, 2011

Well, I'm not sure how I feel about them being involved in politics. On one hand, if you are a Christian, you are a Christian in everything you do whether it is cook dinner, pray, read your bible, surf Metafilter, or vote. On the other, Jesus said plainly His kingdom was not of this world, and I believe what He said.

As to the beliefs....well, I believe the reporter, not having perhaps the same background I do, was trying to be as accurate as possible. I, like they, believe that God speaks today, and I also believe that just as the Bible teaches, that there are apostles and prophets. I think it is probably not a great idea necessarily to selfidentify as one. If you are one, people know it, you don't have to tell them. I do believe in the power of prayer, as do they, and I do believe that God judges-but I also believe He holds back His hand when His people pray. The story of Jonah in the Bible is probably the best illustration I can give you.

@joannemerriam, your comment illustrates exactly why I am not exactly comfortable with the scenario. Not because I don't believe my Christian brothers and sisters are sincere but because I trust most politicians about as far as I can throw them.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:14 PM on July 14, 2011 [11 favorites]

From the article:

"The Democratic Party, one prominent member believes, is controlled by Jezebel..."

The website? I am having a hard time keeping that last sip of coffee in my mouth. (j/k)

Other things: there's a brand of Catholicism I stumbled upon a couple years back that seems to be a derivative of the brand of Christianity discussed here. They take the Catechism a bit more seriously than most... too seriously.

With respect to the overall pervasive influence that religion has had all over: it does not settle with me well. Something needs to be done about it
posted by JoeXIII007 at 4:14 PM on July 14, 2011

Wow do these people hate gay people. I kind of wonder what that's like, to just be all, X category of people are bad and we wish they would become straight or die and they're gonna rot in hell. Yay?
posted by angrycat at 4:15 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

For the uninitiated, they are not referring to the Bible character Jezebel, who was the wife of Ahab in the OT. They are referring to a demonic spirit by that name. (Yes, I know this sounds woowoo. It would take me a semester to explain all this.)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:16 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Glad we're all clear that it at least sounds woowoo.
posted by Flunkie at 4:18 PM on July 14, 2011 [16 favorites]

Ahab's wife was the sea, his murderess mistress a whale.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:18 PM on July 14, 2011 [7 favorites]

Not because I don't believe my Christian brothers and sisters are sincere but because I trust most politicians about as far as I can throw them.

Do these particular people believe that your specific branch of Christianity will be sufficient to allow you to go to heaven? A lot of sects don't believe that other sects will go to heaven. I would also like to note that in many places in the world, praying to Allah gets results. I have a friend whose prayers are regularly answered by Allah.

But I'm not too worried because Satan will ALWAYS be better at music than God.
posted by fuq at 4:21 PM on July 14, 2011

oh, okay. Jezebel is the chick that Ahab threw off the castle, right? I didn't realize J. was also the name of a demon and thought it vaguely awful that the poor thrown-out woman got such a bad rap.
posted by angrycat at 4:24 PM on July 14, 2011

You just can't do that one without teh Gays.

Or the drugs.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 4:24 PM on July 14, 2011 [7 favorites]

What do the lesser demons do? I bet one of them is in charge of whoever keeps sending me emails about how awful an Attorney General the Cooch is.
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:25 PM on July 14, 2011

What do the lesser demons do?

I'm pretty sure that they're in charge of lesser annoyances. Think spam, parking tickets, bad drivers and DMV lines.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 4:29 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

For the uninitiated, they are not referring to the Bible character Jezebel, who was the wife of Ahab in the OT. They are referring to a demonic spirit by that name.

Thanks for the clarification, Alia. However, there seems to be another Jezebel mentioned in the Bible: Revelation 2:18-28. Would this be the same demonic figure?

(I find it fascinating how many supernatural entities seem to exist in a supposedly monotheistic worldview.)
posted by brundlefly at 4:30 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

I seem to recall Kingdom Come: The Rise of Christian Nationalism being reviewed well on this topic
posted by youknowwhatpart at 4:31 PM on July 14, 2011

It's not LARPing, it's very real to those involved in the New Apostolic Reformation. I know, because I used to work here.

I too, once believed that we could change cities and transform the world, by sanctifying the "Seven Mountains." I traveled to different parts of the world proselytizing this doctrine. It was during one of these trips, to Argentina specifically, that my faith unraveled. We were at a Catholic shrine in Rosario, where the Virgin Mary allegedly appeared on occasion. It was our job to mill among the crowd and "cast-out" the demons that were possessing the crowd and pray that the light of Christ unblind these misguided children of God.

As I walked through the crowd, I saw nothing but devotion to God. Nothing but earnest people praying over their everyday (and not so everyday) trials. I thought to myself, "This is bullshit." On that same trip we walked the streets of Buenos Aires, praying for the marketplace and breaking the demon/masonic/ley lines. We passed by children living in cardboard boxes. True, we did pass out medical supplies and food and clothing to those in need, while I was there. But my question was, "How can a god who wants his children to prosper sacrifice these innocents? Condemn them to live in cardboard boxes of all things!" I mulled these questions over and brought them up to Ed and his pastoral/leadership staff. The answer I got was, "It's just the way it is. It is not for us to discern." I sat with this information, uncomfortably, for several months. I was very unsatisfied with the answer I got.

Upon our return to the USA, perhaps several months later -- it's been a long time and I don't remember -- we were asked at Wednesday prayer meeting before work, to please not cash our checks until next week. Apparently, the organization didn't have enough in the bank to make payroll. Fair enough, we were a non-profit faith organization after all. As I wondered how I would pay my bills for that week, one of Ed's children came by the office. I won't mention her name -- that's not important. What mattered is that she was driving a new red BMW. When I asked her about it, she said, "Oh! Dad got if for me over the weekend! I'll take you for a ride, it's really nice!" I resigned that Friday.

I'm not sure how on topic this is to Rick Perry, specifically, so I'm sorry if it's a derail. But this is the first time I've gotten to share this story with more than just a handful of folks on MetafFilter, and I think it needs to be heard. Thanks if you've read this far.
posted by luminous phenomena at 4:32 PM on July 14, 2011 [156 favorites]

If you don't believe in the power of prayer, no need to be worried about what any of these people are up to.

It's really irrelevant whether I believe in the power of prayer- either way, I do believe in the power of people enacting laws and laws being carried out - and once you say your goal is to get into government and make laws, I get a right to be worried about it.

Especially these days as we've had laws remove our right to privacy, give full power to agencies to detain or disappear people without legal representation or trial, to put people on trial for murder for personal medical procedures, etc.

I'm totally down for these people to pray more.

But that's not all they're talking about doing.
posted by yeloson at 4:37 PM on July 14, 2011 [26 favorites]

There seems to be significant disagreement with St. Alia of the Bunnies regarding the claim that the demon Jezebel is not the Jezebel of the Old Testament.

For example, here's a video of a preacher casting out the demon Jezebel from a possessed woman, followed by some discussion wherein that same preacher seems to make it clear that he's equating the possessing Jezebel with the Jezebel of the Old Testament.

Googling for "jezebel demon" shows a bunch of links that seem to be of the same opinion.
posted by Flunkie at 4:40 PM on July 14, 2011

I don't believe in the power of prayer, and yet I am VERY concerned about people who do believe in the power of prayer also wanting the power of lawmaking.
posted by Legomancer at 4:41 PM on July 14, 2011 [16 favorites]

But I'm not too worried because Satan will ALWAYS be better at music than God.

Oh, them's fighting words! ;-)

(oh, and we believe all who trust in Jesus will be saved-my own son is Eastern Orthodox and I believe he's going to heaven. )

Angrycat, Jezebel was actually thrown off the wall by her own eunuchs. And then trampled underfoot by horses. Flunkie, to address what you just posted, I think the belief would be that the entity either had possessed her to start with or the entity had her characteristics. I'm sure there are some sketchy teachings about it/ her out there, btw.

Brundlefly, the Revelation reference? Depends on who you ask. I always have read it as an actual woman at that church whom they called Jezebel but I think scholarship on that varies.

Oh as far as I know my church doesn't subscribe to the seven mountains thing-I think we just manage to know everybody.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:42 PM on July 14, 2011

stealthily climb to the commanding heights of what they term the 'Seven Mountains' of society

I wonder why stealthily? So the devil doesn't cotton on to their plans? I'd think the devil is not going to be so unobservant. Seems the stealth is a measure against ordinary human beings.

I think they should identify themselves freely - after all, if their program is so great, there's no need to try to implement it under the cover of dark.

I like how this guy identifies himself. You know exactly where he stands.
posted by VikingSword at 4:44 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

If you don't believe in the power of prayer, no need to be worried about what any of these people are up to.

Alia, I don't think people are worried about what they do when they're praying -- I think people are worried about what they do when they're VOTING.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:44 PM on July 14, 2011 [6 favorites]

If you DO believe in the power of prayer, you aren't worried about what any of these people are up to.

but if you believe in the power of prayer to a god other than the one these people pray to, you should be very worried indeed.
posted by nicwolff at 4:45 PM on July 14, 2011 [8 favorites]

Tax 'em. All religions equally.
posted by Eideteker at 4:46 PM on July 14, 2011 [19 favorites]

luminous phenomena, sorry the LARPing thing was my way of joking about somethin I've experienced. Long ago, in rejection of growing up as a self-identified atheist, I dove headfirst into the Pentacostal/Charismatic/whatever movement. I've cast out demons, gotten drunk in the spirit, preached, taught, converted, cried, studied, lived and breathed this stuff. I bought into the whole spiritual warfare thing all the way.

Thanks for your story.
posted by melt away at 4:49 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, unto God what is God's.....I got no problem with that personally. Might cut down on the false shepherds trying to fleece flocks.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:49 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Rachel Maddow has been covering some of this Rick Perry / prayer meeting / religious oddball stuff this week. I'm too lazy to dig up the links to the specific videos right now, but it's been... um... eye-opening to say the least.

When Year Zero is finally declared in 2022, I bet it'll be Rick Perry or one of the other people from this particular movement who usher it in.
posted by hippybear at 5:02 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Let me mention I don't know jack turkey about Rick Perry. Have no clue whatsoever whether he is using these people or he is sincere.

Rick Perry has spent so long submerging himself in whatever he thinks voters want to hear that at this point I would honestly question whether he is capable of being sincere about anything.

I don't say this just because he's Republican, but the man's just creepy. He has the same dead-inside doll's eyes as Stephen Harper or James Carville.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:06 PM on July 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

Rick Perry may be attracted to the power this group wields/promises, but I would not call him any kind of zealot except an anti-tax, pro-corporate one. His real god is tax breaks, and more tax breaks.

Here's some examples of his record; he's your basic stomp-the-poor, make-the-rich-richer Republican.

Being a member of an exotic Christianist cult might actually make him interesting, but historically wild-eyed zealotry is not really his style. He's your basic banality-of-evil empty suit.
posted by emjaybee at 5:11 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

There seems to be significant disagreement with St. Alia of the Bunnies regarding the claim that the demon Jezebel is not the Jezebel of the Old Testament.

You have to realize that some names in the Bible actually get picked up and reused on a fairly regular basis - Gog and Magog, Babylon, and Jezebel number among those. "Babylon" in Revelation came to stand for Rome, for example, because it was another large, wealthy city whose inhabitants conquered and ruled Judea. "Jezebel" likely is being used the same way - making a symbolic shorthand out of the OT queen and then applying it to a more modern individual or issue within the church at the time Revelation was written.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:11 PM on July 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

What terrifies me is that if you get enough idiots together shouting loudly enough about the End of the World, the chances are pretty good that you're actually edging closer to the End of the World, regardless of the truth-value of the idiots' claims.

To quote the Church of the Sub-Genius, "Why wait for the Apocalypse? Start looting now!"

It boggles my mind that people so fervently devoted to tearing down American civilization sleep like innocent babes, convinced of their own virtue. Chilling, really.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:14 PM on July 14, 2011 [15 favorites]

Ah yes, Rick Perry. Crusty christian outside, creamy corporate filling.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:14 PM on July 14, 2011 [11 favorites]

When Year Zero is finally declared in 2022, I bet it'll be Rick Perry or one of the other people from this particular movement who usher it in.

I don't believe in woo, but since that album/ARG came out, it seems like we've just been accumulating evidence that Year Zero's dystopic America may be truly reflected backwards from the future.
posted by treepour at 5:18 PM on July 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

If there's nothing wrong with mainstream Christianity or Mormonism, there's nothing wrong with any of these beliefs as outlined in the article, as far as I can see.

Also, it's not particularly weird that Perry quoted Jesus in a TV interview. The quote about prophets in their home towns is a well known one, and on of the few examples of humor I can think of in the Bible.

I don't think it's helpful to lead an inquisition into the content of all of these politician's either sincere or professed religious beliefs. Everyone's religious belief is crazy to someone.

That aside, the fact that the Governor of Texas leading a sectarian religious event in a quasi-official capacity would be just as much a problem if it were middle-of-the-road Lutherans or any other religious group.
posted by empath at 5:27 PM on July 14, 2011

I'm also not seeing a whole lot of evidence in the article about strong connections between Perry and these guys. Just a lot of innuendo.
posted by empath at 5:29 PM on July 14, 2011

There seems to be significant disagreement with St. Alia of the Bunnies regarding the claim that the demon Jezebel is not the Jezebel of the Old Testament.

I wish I had a scan of the Jehovah's Witness coloring book my ex girlfriend kept from when she was a kid. It had a kick-ass picture of a demonic Jezebel riding a tiger or something like that. She had been kind of obsessed with her since she was little. Perhaps not the best female role-model, but you take what you can get.
posted by empath at 5:31 PM on July 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

If you don't believe in the power of prayer, no need to be worried about what any of these people are up to.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:00 PM on July 14

I think it's the power of PACs, not prayer, that is the concern. Co-mingling of religion and government always leads to woowoo-iness.
posted by Salmonberry at 5:41 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Empath, I would lay dollars to Cortex-sized donuts that that was actually a picture of the Whore of Babylon. Revelation is a pretty wild book of the Bible, that.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:45 PM on July 14, 2011

St. Alia, I was a member of an evangelical congregation in Oklahoma in the late nineties, and while they weren't quite like this movement, they could easily have turned that way. I don't know your congregation, obviously, and I know it's not this movement either (and seems from what you write over here to be much more charity-focused) but as you know/know of these people, I'm curious about the Book of Joel fascination and whether you know anything about that. Has that been a focus of yours, theirs, or any other congregations you know of, or is this a recent development due to the economic situation?
posted by Navelgazer at 5:56 PM on July 14, 2011

ROU_Xenophobe: "Rick Perry... has the same dead-inside doll's eyes as Stephen Harper or James Carville."

Is it coincidence that Stephen Harper belongs to a Dominionist church with similar beliefs?
posted by sneebler at 6:09 PM on July 14, 2011

Mike Bickle does extensive teachings on that particular book of the Bible. Along with 24 hour worship, his church has an emphasis on end times theology. Many of the people discussed in the original post are friends with or somewhat connected with his group.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:10 PM on July 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

No one who has ever predicted the end times has been correct.
posted by fuq at 6:20 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

I tried to read this, I really did. I got several paragraphs in and the feeling of depression and horror that washed over me was so enormous that I couldn't continue.

This is me almost every day on Metafilter.

As to this topic specifically, the first time I saw Rick Perry I knew nothing about him besides that he was governor of Texas, but one look and I knew: "Here is a man who will eventually be a serious contender for the presidency."

I don't say this just because he's Republican, but the man's just creepy. He has the same dead-inside doll's eyes as Stephen Harper or James Carville.

Exactly my point.
posted by AugieAugustus at 6:23 PM on July 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Fuq, we aren't talking about date setting. Altho in general end times theology is complicated, difficult and more often than not, well, wrong. Like most biblical prophecy, (such as OT prophecy regarding Jesus) it's clear after it happens. Before, maybe not so much.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:23 PM on July 14, 2011

One guess as to whether the FBI has infiltrated this actually harmful group and has dossiers on the members.
posted by DU at 6:24 PM on July 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Come on now, you guys are starting to sound paranoid. Sheesh.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:29 PM on July 14, 2011

One guess as to whether the FBI has infiltrated this actually harmful group and has dossiers on the members.

More like they've got at least a couple agents that attend the seminars on the weekends.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:33 PM on July 14, 2011

No one who has ever predicted the end times has been correct.

It only takes one.
posted by Legomancer at 6:35 PM on July 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Come on now, you guys are starting to sound paranoid. Sheesh.

Yippies

Party Kids

Social justice advocates

and Ernest Hemingway
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 6:39 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

St. Alia of the Bunnies: "if you are a Christian, you are a Christian in everything you do whether it is cook dinner, pray, read your bible, surf Metafilter, or vote."

And there's the problem. If you are a Christian in everything you do, and you define "Christian" to include this kind of coercive proselytizing, you are not compatible with a pluralistic society. Your philosophy is at odds with every possible interpretation of the establishment clause of the first amendment, and so it's extra offensive when you pretend to revere Traditional America.

If you think government should be used to enforce your religious beliefs, then own up to that. Call it what it is, because if you have such strong moral views then concealing them makes you a coward, and disguising them makes you a liar.
posted by Riki tiki at 6:41 PM on July 14, 2011 [27 favorites]

No one who has ever predicted the end times has been correct.

This blatantly not true. The world ended in 1977, as David Bowie predicted in this song. All evidence to the contrary is illusory.
posted by philip-random at 6:42 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I've got a healthy amount of paranoia about this, yes.

I don't hate Christians or people of any other religion. I don't think religious people should be barred from politics or that their beliefs shouldn't inform their actions (as if either of those to things were even remotely possible.)

What worries me, however, is a movement - and it goes far beyond New Apostolic Reformation - that merges faith with politics, and one specifically which merges the Majority faith of the U.S. with a rigid platform of one party, thus simultaneously perverting the belief system to fit the needs of the party and making the platform of the party doctrinaire as a matter of faith. It's how we've gotten to our current position of taxes being a mark of Socialism, socialism being just a different variety of communism, communism being necessarily godless, and thus taxes being opposed by God.

It only gets worse when eschatology is involved, because then the policies are derived distinctly out of a need not to help the people, but to bring about the End Times. And I don't need to believe in the end times to be very uncomfortable with people in positions of great power using those positions in order to further that particular agenda, rather than to solve present problems.

Add to that the fact that most politicians are going to be either passively or actively corrupt and the situation of being unable to discuss policy in any actual detail in an age of sound-bite media, and this does get one a little bit terrified.

One need not be a skeptic to be alarmed by this. When someone claims to have a direct line to God, and is making policy, and has a large part of the country which accepts that as a matter of faith, that is a recipe for disaster, even more so when that person is part of a party whose strategy at the current time is to be willfully obstructionist and let things go to hell until they are voted back into power.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:54 PM on July 14, 2011 [23 favorites]

I can't believe the International House of Pancakes hasn't smooshed this IHOP thing.
posted by bonsai forest at 7:12 PM on July 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Bolsheviks for Jesus is how I think of these people. Boy, two great tastes that taste great together.

It seems to be some kind of offshoot of what amounts to a motivational speaking outfit with no real connections to anything that could even generously be described as a "church".

Well, this describes this largest part of today's GOP. It's like a holy Amway scam, minus the shampoo.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:31 PM on July 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Rick Perry has some really cool hair.
posted by buzzman at 7:53 PM on July 14, 2011

ROU_Xenophobe: "Rick Perry... has the same dead-inside doll's eyes as Stephen Harper or James Carville."

Is it coincidence that Stephen Harper belongs to a Dominionist church with similar beliefs?



You should see what they look like when you put on the sunglasses!
posted by dibblda at 8:13 PM on July 14, 2011 [9 favorites]

Rick Perry has some really cool hair.

This and his jaw will get him elected some day. It's like high school but not funny anymore.
posted by dibblda at 8:14 PM on July 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Come on now, you guys are starting to sound paranoid. Sheesh.

Personally I don't fear people like these much. They may think they are building a steady coalition for their Dominionist ideas, I think the reality is that they could never gain meaningful support from the public; they are seeing what they want to see in terms of popular adoption of their plans.

Their viewpoints are very extreme; the more steam they believe they're building up, the more extreme it will get from there, because they will see any growth as an endorsement of the root notion that God is telling them to do these things.

It doesn't matter if most of the USA considers themselves to be Christian -- not all Christians are like these people and don't believe like these people do. Insane power grabbers like the New Apostolic Reformation movement are a relatively tiny sample of the whole.

We've seen even in the last couple of years, many younger Evangelicals disassociating themselves from the extreme-right conservative movements because they see how disconnected it is from the ideas of compassion, justice, and charity that is the core of Christian teachings.

What's left is the angst of a lot of older guys who, truth be told, are letting their politics inform their religious belief as much or more than the other way around. It is the last desperate gasp of a mindset that is dying. Hopefully in 10 to 15 years' time, involvement in movements like this would be as embarrassing and shameful as membership in the KKK.
posted by contessa at 8:26 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

contessa, I hope so, but my concern is not that this represents the mainstream of American Christianity (I know it doesn't) but that agenda-driven news-media outlets either don't know that or don't care, and it all just gets folded in together. So that it's not, "these dominionist pastors are pushing for rule over the seven mountains," but rather, "Pastor Jones, what do you think?" "Well, I just don't think this agrees with Christian principles..." where Pastor Jones is arguing in a talking Head segment against an economist or scientist or someone else with whom he's been given "equal time" to represent conservatism.

Because in that case, no one needs to bring up dominionism or end times theology or the Book of Joel or direct lines to God or political ties. And they don't need to bring up expertise on the subject matter either. They just need to say that he's Christian and debating the "other side" of any given issue. And then it doesn't matter much how fringe he is.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:45 PM on July 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

These guys are nothing new. Dominionism has been on the rise in the Christian Right wing for a long, long time.

As to Governor Goodhair; look, I warned everyone who would listen about Bush. I tried. I really did. And I tell you what, Bush is a warm, charismatic teddy bear of an intellectual compared to Rick Perry.

Perry is a poorly educated sociopath with global designs. He's a bit of an egotist with hoof-n-mouth disease, but he's surrounded by people that got Bush elected, and most of them are no dummies. Also, he could win in this political climate. Whereas Bush was a moron who really believed he was doing good things; Perry couldn't give a rat's ass about doing good things, he does things that make him popular with a certain set of society, and to hell with the rest of us. And he can charm the pants off most anyone who doesn't immediately notice that he's an emotional calculator, every reaction is designed...it's spooky up close, it is, but most voters will only ever see him swagger and boast on TV, and people love that shit. I don't know why, but they do.

Anyway, I'm just saying; having lived under his, ahem, dominion, for lo these many years, he is a calculating, cold, hard man who dislikes women, poor people, Islam, and "criminals" who might be innocent. He professes a love of Christ, and surrounds himself with those he considers messengers of the Lord; but his actions are anything but those of the prophet of peace. The thought of him having real power is too frightening to contemplate.
posted by dejah420 at 8:53 PM on July 14, 2011 [15 favorites]

[Sorry, it was the sanctuary of Maria del Rosario de San Nicolas -- not Rosario. It's been over 15 years and I only remembered Rosario. Also, thanks for the support.]
posted by luminous phenomena at 10:03 PM on July 14, 2011

Reading this thread -- what with good hair and Jesus and all -- reading this thread got me to thinking of a folk song I heard sung around a campfire at the Kerrville Folk Festival long years ago, a friend of mine had the record but I never got it, it's written and sung by Dick Siegel about how Jesus John and Elvis all had good hair; as follows:

Jesus, John, and Elvis /
Son of god, President, and Pelvis /
These are the big three /
And they all had good hair

I've looked for this song before but not found it but tonight ol' google came through.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:12 PM on July 14, 2011

I've been hearing about Dominionism since at least the early 90's. I figure these guys have the gnarliest internecine power struggles of all subcultures, being blinkered by the idea of an all powerful "god" (which they imagine themselves to be, really). So I don't worry too much.
posted by telstar at 1:34 AM on July 15, 2011

These guys are nothing new. Dominionism has been on the rise in the Christian Right wing for a long, long time.

Okay, here's the thing: the kind of "Dominionism" which is the subject of this post and the kind of "Dominionism" which is the subject of this comment have absolutely nothing to do with each other other than sharing a name.

No, really. The movements share no common actors, organizations, intellectual influences, church affiliations, nothing.

The "Dominionism" in this post comes out of the charismatic/Pentecostal movement but is non-denominational for all that. And just look at the stuff on their sites: speaking conferences, plenty of opportunity to book their guys or buy their stuff, lots of MBA-ese, etc.

The "Dominionism" we've mostly talked about before comes out of the fringes of the Reformed tradition, i.e. Christian Reconstructionism. Hence my earlier comment: what's going on here looks a lot like Reconstructionism yet, strangely enough, has zero actual connection with it. It's like the Bizzaro World version of Reconstructionism. Really, read the Wikipedia link I provided: you won't find a single name or institution in common with what's being discussed in this post.

So these guys are something new. What they're doing is superficially and arguably structurally similar to what some other people have been doing, but because these people have zero connection with and do not seem to have communicated with what others have been doing, this comes right the hell out of nowhere.

Which is actually true of most non-denominational and even just evangelical phenomena these days. Most of the American church is completely cut off from its roots, so anything that you see happen likely did so absent any organic connection to historic Christianity. It's just some guy who hasn't talked to anyone or received any kind of formal instruction deciding he's got a good idea and running with it. I.e. anarchy.
posted by valkyryn at 2:41 AM on July 15, 2011 [7 favorites]

I knew that the Taliban hated our freedoms, but I didn't realize that they would be clever enough to infiltrate Christian groups and Texas politics to make their fundamentalist agenda national policy.

And just when I was really starting to enjoy music, bikinis, and kites.
posted by twoleftfeet at 2:42 AM on July 15, 2011

Perry is a poorly educated sociopath with global designs.

Oh well, since we on metafilter have decided to toss the next election to the Republicans, we might as well vote for this guy. If the goal is to let the Republicans run the country into the ground until the glorious people's socialist revolution occurs, then this guy seems to be just the ticket.
posted by happyroach at 3:16 AM on July 15, 2011

Oh well, since we on metafilter have decided to toss the next election to the Republicans

Easy to argue with a straw man huh?
posted by dibblda at 5:57 AM on July 15, 2011 [3 favorites]

Sigh. Another case of ethno-nationalism wrapped up in exclusionary identity politics. The group identity is mostly defined by their enemies list. The problem isn't whether they are sincere, it's that they are delusional and power-mad. Since any policy failures are ascribable to their enemies, you can see where this leads.

It's a slightly different flavor of the month, but it's more or less what Norman Cohn was writing about in Pursuit of the Millenium.

Flowery motives and justifications aside, the final score-card is going to be more harm than good.
posted by warbaby at 7:14 AM on July 15, 2011

If you don't believe in the power of prayer, no need to be worried about what any of these people are up to. If you DO believe in the power of prayer, you aren't worried about what any of these people are up to.

St. Alia, I'm an atheist but I happen to know several liberal Christians who do very much believe in the power of prayer, and they, like me, are quite concerned about these people.

Your attempt to claim that not merely all of Christianity is in agreement with your politics, but that all religious people everywhere are in agreement with your politics is rather odd. Or do you subscribe to the idea that self identified Christians who don't agree with your politics are not really Christian and must, therefore, be lying when they say they believe in the power of prayer?

And, finally, as a person who does not believe even slightly in the power of prayer I'm extremely worried about what those people are up to. Their agenda isn't limited to praying for change after all, they're actively plotting to take over the government and implement a theocracy.
posted by sotonohito at 7:21 AM on July 15, 2011 [3 favorites]

GenjiandProust: I would hope God would have better taste than to pick a guy with blank, button eyes

He picked George W. Bush, didn't he?

bonsai forest: I can't believe the International House of Pancakes hasn't smooshed this IHOP thing.

They have sent letters. The guy claims that he came up with the name without any thought of pancakes.

dejah420: Whereas Bush was a moron who really believed he was doing good things; Perry couldn't give a rat's ass about doing good things, he does things that make him popular with a certain set of society, and to hell with the rest of us.

Going through the list, all the things you say about Perry were said about Bush in 1999. Perry probably genuinely believes he's doing good works, no matter what his enemies think. Bush was cold and calculated, Bush charmed the pants off everyone he met before he invaded Iraq, everyone had an orgasmic response to Bush's boasting and swaggering before it had any real consequences, Bush genuinely believed he was bringing America back to its roots (and so does Perry), many people who "observed" Bush saw an cold, hard "emotional calculator" who was dead behind his eyes, Bush didn't "give a rat's ass about doing good things, he [did] things that [made] him popular with a certain set of society, and to hell with the rest of us," and Bush hated Muslims with a fiery passion (whatever he may have claimed about doin' good things to bring us all together as one). The only difference is that Bush's people hate Perry's guts, and vice versa.

I mean, does anyone here NOT remember the Bush years? They sure were the subject of enough raging metafilter firestorms. Sometimes I think it's like an entity has taken a giant Hoover vacuum cleaner to everyone's brains and given them mass amnesia. We already HAD Rick Perry as president for eight freaking years! And no, he was not a freaking warm cuddly charismatic teddy bear!
posted by blucevalo at 7:38 AM on July 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

What do the lesser demons do?

I can't speak for the others, but I mostly sit around playing video-games and watching cable. Most of us got out of politics a long time ago; it's just too evil and mean-spirited.
posted by quin at 8:30 AM on July 15, 2011 [6 favorites]

Your attempt to claim that not merely all of Christianity is in agreement with your politics, but that all religious people everywhere are in agreement with your politics is rather odd.

I never said that. I think perhaps you are reading quite a lot into what I said.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:46 AM on July 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

Is this where I mention that innuendo is an Italian suppository?

sorry, not sure what made me do that...
posted by kinnakeet at 9:06 AM on July 15, 2011

Nothing to worry about. It appears god doesn't listen to Rick.

Texas drought now far, far worse than when Gov. Rick Perry issued proclamation calling on all Texans to pray for rain.
posted by perhapses at 10:24 AM on July 15, 2011 [4 favorites]

Texas drought now far, far worse than when Gov. Rick Perry issued proclamation calling on all Texans to pray for rain.

Christians know that God always answers prayers, but sometimes the answer is "NO! LOLZ! PWN3D U!!"
posted by fuq at 10:40 AM on July 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

"I think they should identify themselves freely - after all, if their program is so great, there's no need to try to implement it under the cover of dark."

BINGO BANGO. I've got a book to write about this - but I believe there is a correlation between the spiritual health of any given movement and its commitment to transparency. I was completely on board with their aversion to freemasonry - if freemasonry is so great, why hide it under a bushel basket? Cults keep secrets. Religions - honest religions - want to cast their little seeds as far and wide as possible. The healthiest churches I've ever worked with post their line-item budgets publicly. This includes the pastor's salary. What on earth do they have to be ashamed of?
If these sly foxes are sneaking around in political hallways, if they're hiding money from the IRS, if they're holding secret meetings, they're a cult. Full stop. They should be called out.

My grandmother's words ring in my ears, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." If the devil is in the details, then old Lucifer loves dark corners, shady budgets, locked doors and closed curtains. Shine the light on the cockroaches, watch 'em scatter. Transparency, investigation, and publication! If they're real evangelists, if they're honest apostles, they'll be delighted to have their beliefs, practices, finances, and leadership structure front and center in the public square. Just ask St. Paul.
posted by Tennyson D'San at 10:46 AM on July 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

Navelgazer: When someone claims to have a direct line to God, and is making policy, and has a large part of the country which accepts that as a matter of faith, that is a recipe for disaster :

Kudos. I will point to this clearer, more tactful comment of yours whenever this comes up. I was just gonna say,

"maximum stupid (religion) + maximum evil (government) = a chunk of charcoal where the world used to be."
posted by herbplarfegan at 11:18 AM on July 15, 2011

contessa: Hopefully in 10 to 15 years' time, involvement in movements like this would be as embarrassing and shameful as membership in the KKK.

seamless ditto on religion overall.
posted by herbplarfegan at 11:21 AM on July 15, 2011

Texas drought now far, far worse than when Gov. Rick Perry issued proclamation calling on all Texans to pray for rain.

People just aren't praying hard enough! Or in the right way!
posted by lesbiassparrow at 11:22 AM on July 15, 2011

St. Alia You said "If you DO believe in the power of prayer, you aren't worried about what any of these people are up to."

How am I supposed to take that other than "if you believe in the power of prayer you agree with these people"?

If I'm being dense, please explain what I'm missing.
posted by sotonohito at 12:08 PM on July 15, 2011

Simple. If you believe in the power of prayer, you'd be praying too. You're either agreeing in prayer with these people, or asking God to correct them. ;-)

Also: you do realize that God has more answers to prayer than just yes, right?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:35 PM on July 15, 2011

How am I supposed to take that other than "if you believe in the power of prayer you agree with these people"?

I believe the subtext is meant to be, "If you believe in the power of prayer, you know that God's answer to these guys' prayers is going to be, 'aw HELL no'."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:37 PM on July 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

Rachel Maddow: Dangers of sex with demons highlighted by Perry prayer participant
posted by homunculus at 1:32 PM on July 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Incubi and Succubi have been talked about a long time. Nothing new under the sun, Rachel.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:24 PM on July 15, 2011

Well, yes, but the last time people talked about sex with demons and weren't laughed offstage was back when people believed in luminiferous aether and bleeding sick people. Perry et al seem intent on setting the clock back a few hundred years.
posted by sotonohito at 4:41 PM on July 15, 2011

Look, I didn't click the link but I have heard of this stuff and I have heard of it in modern times.

It's not exactly the sort of thing someone would bring up at cocktail parties, though.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:08 PM on July 15, 2011

I'm sure it isn't. But it disturbs me that there are still people who take that sort of thing seriously.

It's like the nonsense about Harry Potter leading children to "witchcraft", as if there really were such things as witches and magic. And yes, I'm aware that there are people who believe in that stuff, and that they don't often discuss it in public.

Which makes sense I suppose, if I were a supposed adult and I believed in witches, magic and so forth I'd be embarrassed to admit it too.

But it bothers me a great deal that there are enough people who believe that crazy stuff to influence politics.
posted by sotonohito at 6:01 PM on July 15, 2011

Let's just say I know all sorts of people who have experienced all sorts of things...things that a materialist mindset might have a wee bit of trouble parsing. We can leave it at that.

And as for politics, I am gravitating toward the opinion that most people heavily involved in them are crazy anyway, no matter what their personal beliefs are.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:12 PM on July 15, 2011

Last comment not clear. Heavily involved in which? "Experiencing all kinds of things" or politics?
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:35 PM on July 15, 2011

Politics.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:48 PM on July 15, 2011

"Incubi and Succubi have been talked about a long time. Nothing new under the sun, Rachel."

If you actually watched the Rachel Maddow clip, this is very difficult to parse. Please help.
posted by sneebler at 10:30 PM on July 15, 2011

Rachel Maddow: Dangers of sex with demons highlighted by Perry prayer participant

Ah, yes. Thank you homunculus. That is exactly the Maddow segment I was thinking of. Fascinating assembly of clips of all these people spouting their crazy, and trying to make sense of all of it. (Hint: there's no sense to be made, aside from the idea that a lot of people who believe in fairies and other invisible spirits have their own television shows and are influential over Perry and his worldview.)

Also: no mention of incubus or succubus anywhere in the clip.
posted by hippybear at 4:36 AM on July 16, 2011

If they mentioned sex with demons, that is what those particular demons are called. At least, historically speaking.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:10 AM on July 16, 2011

Just watch the clip, St. Alia. It'll take 15 minutes out of your life and you'll be able to speak in an informed manner about the clip, rather than whatever it is you're currently doing.
posted by hippybear at 6:25 AM on July 16, 2011

If all they were doing was praying, they could safely be ignored.

We may indeed look back fondly on the days when an astrologer controlled the President's schedule.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 7:09 AM on July 16, 2011 [3 favorites]

Look, if you believe the bible is true, you open the doors to all kinds of inanity. I don't know how you people can say that eating the body and blood of a dead god-man is completely sane, but having sex with demons is out there in woo-woo land.
posted by empath at 7:10 AM on July 16, 2011

I don't know how you people can say that eating the body and blood of a dead god-man is completely sane, but having sex with demons is out there in woo-woo land.

Then you aren't trying very hard.

Even if your beliefs don't make sense to me, I'm willing to stipulate that they make sense to you. If you aren't willing to grant that belief systems other than yours have their own internal logic, I'd call that a pretty significant failing in intellectual charity.
posted by valkyryn at 7:00 PM on July 16, 2011 [1 favorite]

Rick Perry Not Sure Whether He’s Being ‘Called’ by God or His Mom
posted by homunculus at 2:55 PM on July 19, 2011

Rick Perry Not Sure Whether He’s Being ‘Called’ by God or His Mom

Well, you can't really blame him. It's the passive voice's fault.
posted by The World Famous at 3:02 PM on July 19, 2011

If you aren't willing to grant that belief systems other than yours have their own internal logic, I'd call that a pretty significant failing in intellectual charity.

You should probably read what I said more carefully.

But feel free to explain why believing in demons is crazy and why the death and resurrection of christ and the transubstantiation of bread and wine to body and blood isn't.
posted by empath at 3:57 PM on July 19, 2011

I just find it interesting that there are incubi and succubi, as opposed to one all-purpose sex demon.
posted by angrycat at 4:58 PM on July 19, 2011

Stephen Colbert Really Wants Rick Perry to Run for President
posted by homunculus at 11:48 AM on July 20, 2011

Rick Perry Asked Why More Kids Are Getting Pregnant in Texas
posted by homunculus at 11:40 AM on July 21, 2011

God Urges Rick Perry Not To Run For President
posted by brundlefly at 3:35 PM on July 21, 2011

ACLU, AU to host ‘Faith, Family and Freedom’ rally to counter Perry’s ‘Response’
posted by homunculus at 1:48 PM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Prayer Rally Dwarfed By Texans Who Flock To Nearby Convention Center, Desperate For Free School Supplies
posted by homunculus at 5:09 PM on August 8, 2011

Rick Perry plans to announce his run for the presidency this Saturday.

Top 5 most outrageous statements made at Perry's prayer rally this past Saturday. (TL;DR: 5. Public schools need prayer/must display 10 Commandments; 4. Jews should convert to Christianity; 3. Humanists can't be good without God in their lives; 2. Jesus was anti-choice and anti-gay marriage; 1. GOD IS NOT POLITICAL.

Perry has a strong shot at getting the GOP nomination compared to others; under his governance, Texas has added more jobs than the other 49 states combined. He is also the most senior governor, having served for 11 years and counting.

However, his "two days of prayer for rain" declaration did not, in fact, produce rain earlier this year.

For all of you who say you're unfamiliar with Perry and his governance, he was also his home state's 1988 campaign chairman for then-senator Al Gore. Since then, he's gone from Democrat to Republican, but Texas has also installed more wind power than any other state and all but four countries.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:30 PM on August 8, 2011

"It takes balls to execute an innocent man"
posted by homunculus at 8:54 PM on August 8, 2011

Maddow discusses Rick Perry's connections with a Christian conspiracy group
posted by homunculus at 10:42 AM on August 11, 2011