Explosion in downtown Oslo
July 22, 2011 7:15 AM   Subscribe

A big explosion occurred in downtown Oslo near the goverment building. Cause unknown so far, reports of injured and lots of broken windows.

No deaths reported yet. The prime minister is reported to be in a safe location.

Some pictures of how's it's looking downtown.

Streams to norwegian state tv's live streams here (some plugin required), direct vlc-able link here.
posted by palbo (1302 comments total) 31 users marked this as a favorite

 
Google translate is working pretty well on the Aftenposten site.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:17 AM on July 22, 2011


Early reports suggest that it may have been a car bomb.

Reuters correspondent Walter Gibbs said he counted at least eight injured people. The cause of the blast was unknown but the tangled wreckage of a car was outside one building. Police and fire officials declined comment on the cause. - Globe & Mail
posted by papercrane at 7:19 AM on July 22, 2011


More pictures of the damage.
posted by palbo at 7:20 AM on July 22, 2011


What the heck.....Who has a beef with Norway?
posted by schmod at 7:29 AM on July 22, 2011 [9 favorites]


There has been a second explosion.
posted by deadmessenger at 7:33 AM on July 22, 2011


Early reports were pointing to car bomb. But this pic does not look the result of a car bomb. Fifth story windows blown out and on fire.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:36 AM on July 22, 2011


schmod: Norway is close to Denmark, which had the caricature thing going on a few years, has forces in Afghanistan, is a member of NATO, and has been engaged in Libya

deadmessenger: Reports of a second explosion are being denied by the state television (NRK).

Lots of unsubstantiated rumours flying around...
posted by Aiwen at 7:36 AM on July 22, 2011


What the heck.....Who has a beef with Norway?

Let me be clear this is total speculation, no evidence for this at all, but (tragically) one possibility is going to be considered likely until confirmed otherwise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy.
posted by Hartham's Hugging Robots at 7:37 AM on July 22, 2011


There has not been a second explosion; it was only the windows destroyed by the shockwave making a lot of noise.

The prime minister is wounded, but not critical.

There are apparently, dead people lying in the streets, covered, but also victims hanging out of windows.

A lot of windows in a 1km radius were shattered.

This is bad.
posted by flippant at 7:38 AM on July 22, 2011


It was reported by BBC that an Al Qaeda bomb plot against Norway was stopped last year.
posted by BobbyVan at 7:39 AM on July 22, 2011


When they say that the wreckage of a car is outside one of the buildings, I have to ask: just how big is this car to affect an entire city block? McVeigh had to use a 24' rental truck to take down the Murrah building. Right? Or am I missing something?
posted by NoMich at 7:39 AM on July 22, 2011


NRK says that the prime minister has not been wounded. There have been reports of bleeding people in the streets, but not dead.

Information is very sparse; let's not sensationalise.
posted by Aiwen at 7:39 AM on July 22, 2011


> Let me be clear this is total speculation, no evidence for this at al

That paper is based in Denmark.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 7:40 AM on July 22, 2011


One person has been confirmed dead, according to nrk.
posted by Dumsnill at 7:41 AM on July 22, 2011


I hope this thread doesn't just repeat uncorroborated rumors, because then it's just Twitter.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 7:41 AM on July 22, 2011 [8 favorites]


Alwen: nothing of what I just wrote is from twitter. It is straight from dagbladet, aftenposten, tv2, vg, or nrk.
posted by flippant at 7:42 AM on July 22, 2011


Streetview of (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates' linked picture.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:44 AM on July 22, 2011 [8 favorites]


That paper is based in Denmark.

The Jyllands-Posten newspaper is of course based in Denmark. The reprinting in Norwegian newspapers, however, has already been suspected of causing terrorist plots in Norway, however.
posted by Hartham's Hugging Robots at 7:44 AM on July 22, 2011


minus one 'however', sorry. not trying to sound pedantic.
posted by Hartham's Hugging Robots at 7:46 AM on July 22, 2011


Here's a rundown on why Al Qaeda may have a problem with Norway.
posted by beagle at 7:46 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Short youtube video about 10m from the explosion site: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvIfkIEAcRA
posted by flippant at 7:46 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Comment from the cnn post deadmessenger linked to:
Jagd
It seems it was the oil- and energy department that was hit
posted by xqwzts at 7:48 AM on July 22, 2011


The oil- and energy department was empty at the time, according to NRK.

flippant: "Aftenposten.no får opplyst fra Statsministerens kontor (SMK) at statsminister Jens Stoltenberg er i sikkerhet og uskadet." Translation: Aftenposten.no have been informed from the prime minister's office that Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg is safe and unharmed.

It seems very unlikely that there haven't been casualties, but I can't see any reports confirming them.
posted by Aiwen at 7:51 AM on July 22, 2011


So it's not Vikernes?
posted by Existential Dread at 7:51 AM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


So it's not Vikernes?

No churches have been hit, so, no.
posted by NoMich at 7:52 AM on July 22, 2011 [9 favorites]


One confirmed casualty. Bound to be more.
posted by Aiwen at 7:52 AM on July 22, 2011


Al Jazeera live stream
posted by desjardins at 7:54 AM on July 22, 2011


Oh shit. A good friend of mine lives in Oslo. This is not something I wanted to see on my daily MeFi browse. Trying to get a hold of her via Facebook to find out if her and her people are OK.
posted by DecemberBoy at 7:54 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


graphic picture of aftermath
posted by desjardins at 7:54 AM on July 22, 2011


Some picture of seemingly dead people circulating online now. Looks pretty bad.

What the heck.....Who has a beef with Norway?

Lots of people. See: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya. Norway is also one of the biggest exporters of weapons in the world (per capita).
posted by klue at 7:55 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm streaming Al Jazeera English right now and they are covering this pretty well. They're going over possible reasons why anyone would want to set off a bomb in Norway and they are also stressing that construction is going on in the area, so it could be just an accident. No actual facts have come in as of yet though.
posted by NoMich at 7:58 AM on July 22, 2011


No one insinuate what we're all thinking!
posted by codswallop at 7:58 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Al Jazeera English streaming.
posted by NoMich at 7:58 AM on July 22, 2011


No one insinuate what we're all thinking!

What are we all thinking?
posted by andromache at 8:01 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


klue: Norway was not involved in Iraq, fortunately.
posted by Aiwen at 8:02 AM on July 22, 2011


Yeah - I don't know what we're all thinking, either, so.... huh?
posted by symbioid at 8:05 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Collective punishment is just not ever warranted. Invading Iraq, religious complaints, IRA bombings, whatever - you just don't deal with your problems by randomly killing people who may or may not have any relation to the causes of them. It's stupid. I consider this a moral absolute. Funnily enough, I'm an atheist.
posted by freecellwizard at 8:05 AM on July 22, 2011 [20 favorites]


Al Jazeera just confirmed that the PM is not injured at all; he's fine.
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:05 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


I wish Al-Jazeera would stop repeating that clip where the camera-holder runs down the street.
posted by aramaic at 8:09 AM on July 22, 2011


Oslo police has now confirmed it was a bomb.
posted by palbo at 8:10 AM on July 22, 2011


Oslo police are confirming it was a bomb, according to Al-Jazeera English.
posted by andromache at 8:10 AM on July 22, 2011


freecellwizard: Funnily enough, I'm an atheist.

Being an atheist doesn't mean you're without compassion for others (see: Humanism).
posted by filthy light thief at 8:10 AM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


al-Jazeera just reported that the Oslo police confirmed it was a bomb.
posted by DecemberBoy at 8:10 AM on July 22, 2011


Oslo police confirmed it was a bomb.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 8:11 AM on July 22, 2011


This is what I'm thinking.

-Al Qaeda needed an easy target to show that it's still a viable and dangerous terrorist organization and they needed an easy target. A nice big metropolitan target.
A world city with minimal anti-terror forces.

The other thought I have it that the recent blows against AQ: OBL's death, as well as the death's of some other higher ranking AQ figures, and most importantly the taking of OBL's papers and hard drives and Flash drives has driven the terror cells out of other more susceptible areas, like NYC, London, Munich, Paris etc...

And into hinter areas. So, I think they're on the run, and they're desperate to re-establish their viability and avenge OBL.
posted by Skygazer at 8:18 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Was it a bomb?
posted by stbalbach at 8:18 AM on July 22, 2011 [21 favorites]


Aiwen: Norway formally opposed the invasion of Iraq, yet participated later on. Then there's all the weapons we provided.

stbalbach: The police has confirmed that it was a bomb.
posted by klue at 8:22 AM on July 22, 2011


The BBC, quoting an NRK journalist, says that the explosion damaged the headquarters of the VG (Verdens Gang) tabloid newspaper.

For what it's worth, this Wikipedia entry says, "VG is owned by the media conglomerate Schibsted, which also owns Norway’s largest newspaper, Aftenposten." The list that Hartham's Hugging Robots linked to above includes Aftenposten as one of the papers that reprinted Jyllands-Posten's Muhammad cartoons.

All circumstantial at best, of course. I assume it won't be long until the group behind this claims responsibility and explains their intent directly.
posted by mauvest at 8:25 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Holy shit, my friend Olaf – a big hulking Scots/Norwegian music hack – was just on the BBC News. I heard him whilst not actually watching the screen and had that odd "familiar voice in weird context" auditory double take.

As for whether a car bomb could do that much damage, the IRA managed the same (and worse) over 40-odd years. Here is what a big IRA car bomb did at South Quay DLR station in 1996.
posted by Len at 8:26 AM on July 22, 2011


Metafilter is terrible at breaking news. But I was in Oslo two weeks ago just a block from the explosion, so I can't help myself.

The Telegraph has a nice auto-updating text page to keep up with the latest developments.

I've yet to see a news site show on a map where the explosion happened. But news reports place it next to VG's headquarters, which is at Akersgata 55. That's really the middle of Oslo, like having a bomb go off a block from Union Square in SF or somewhere near Times Square in NY. The main pedestrian street in Oslo is two blocks south, Karl Johans Gate.
posted by Nelson at 8:27 AM on July 22, 2011


I saw pictures of two dead people so far.
posted by JJ86 at 8:31 AM on July 22, 2011


I feel strangely paternalistic towards the Scandinavians. Tolerant, peaceful, the list of superlative qualities goes on and on.

It makes me pretty angry that this happens to anyone, but targetting some of the most decent people on Earth...really stokes up the fires of hatred. Which is what it is designed to do.
posted by Xoebe at 8:32 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


What are we all thinking?

Yeah - I don't know what we're all thinking, either, so.... huh?



That's the spirit!
posted by codswallop at 8:32 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Oh my God. I just turned on the TV to watch Tour de France, and was greeted with pictures of smoke billowing out of the government building. I am stunned.

Norwegian TV just showed a charred car lying wheels up, and it sounds like a car bomb was the likely cause. Two confirmed fatalities so far, but that number is likely to rise once the police enter the buildings. Luckily this happened in the afternoon in late July, when most people are on vacation or at least have left work.

The media has been speculating about whether Mullah Krekar was somehow involved. I predict the Progress Party is going to get a big bump in the polls in any case if this turns out to have been Islamic terrorism.
posted by Bukvoed at 8:33 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


From The Atlantic by way of the Guardian ...

...

Which brings us to the third theory: Norway's treatment of the Iraqi Kurdish Islamist Mulla Krekar. Onetime leader of the Islamist guerrilla group Ansar al-Islam, Mulla Krekar came to Norway as a refugee in the early 1990s and spent years secretly shuttling between Oslo and Kurdistan until his arrest in September 2002. Although terrorism charges were dropped in 2003, he has been officially declared a threat to national security and placed under house arrest awaiting deportation to Iraq. For many Islamists, Mulla Krekar's treatment demonstrates Norway's subservience to the cruel whims of the United States.

posted by philip-random at 8:34 AM on July 22, 2011


Metafilter is terrible at breaking news.

Huh. That's been the opposite of my experience. The Fukushima threads were all I could think about for days.
posted by jbickers at 8:34 AM on July 22, 2011 [27 favorites]


Oslo police has now confirmed it was a bomb.
posted by palbo at 11:10 AM on July 22 [+] [!]

Oslo police are confirming it was a bomb, according to Al-Jazeera English.
posted by andromache at 11:10 AM on July 22 [+] [!]

al-Jazeera just reported that the Oslo police confirmed it was a bomb.
posted by DecemberBoy at 11:10 AM on July 22 [+] [!]

Oslo police confirmed it was a bomb.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:11 AM on July 22 [+] [!]

stbalbach: The police has confirmed that it was a bomb.
posted by klue at 11:22 AM on July 22 [+] [!]


And Metafilter has now confirmed that the Oslo police have confirmed that it was a bomb.
posted by orange swan at 8:35 AM on July 22, 2011 [37 favorites]


No one insinuate what we're all thinking!

Gnomes!
posted by I love you more when I eat paint chips at 8:37 AM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


More thoughts (sorry man, they just sort of happen...):

-This doesn't appear to be a suicide bomb yet, which suggests that AQ, if it is AQ, is having manpower problems, so they can't afford to use that technique otherwise and risk discovery, I think they would've chosen a much busier time, as opposed to a Friday late afternoon/early evening in July, a time I would assume a lot of people are leaving work early to get a jump on the weekend and head out to the country, if the bomb delivery could utilize a suicide bomber.

-If I was that AQ group this would be the beginning of a campaign with something bigger to come soon in a bigger city. So I'd be on a plane out of there and to NYC or London (hope they're checking flight manifests), and planes coming in from Oslo to those cities should be double checked on landing. Or trains too, I guess. maybe a train to Stockholm or Copenhagen first, so planes from there need to be scrutinized.

I'll be over here watching this unfold if anyone needs any other "thoughts" from me.
posted by Skygazer at 8:40 AM on July 22, 2011


No one insinuate what we're all thinking!

Gnomes!


Come on, don't be flip. It's pretty obvious that this has been the work of TechnoViking.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:44 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Ummm, am I the only one who is not ready to see the humor in this?

Please stop.
posted by philip-random at 8:47 AM on July 22, 2011 [38 favorites]


More of a note on the whole 'we're all thinking the same thing but can't talk about it' thing. But you're right, this is not a great time for cracking wise.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:50 AM on July 22, 2011


If I was that AQ group this would be the beginning of a campaign with something bigger to come soon in a bigger city. So I'd be on a plane out of there and to NYC or London

I am grateful to note that during similar incidents in the past, speculations premised on the assumption that AQ's actions might follow intelligible/logical strategy have generally never panned out. May this be yet another instance in which those speculations prove untrue.
posted by artemisia at 8:51 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


.
posted by subbes at 8:53 AM on July 22, 2011


Please stop.

Some people handle bad shit with humor. For some people, that's the only way to deal with horrifying shit like this.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 8:53 AM on July 22, 2011 [25 favorites]


News breaks messily. The downside of trying to track it in real time is that what once was "fact" is often very quickly bullshit. The upside of how Meftafilter reflects this is that a trail gets left as to how "the truth came to be known", unlike in many online versions of old-school news sources which often as not edit/remove/add info on the fly leaving no trail.

So yeah, I tend to like how Metafilter does breaking news ... unless folks start taking it too personally. That tends to be where the professionalism of the old-schoolers beats us.
posted by philip-random at 8:56 AM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


In my mind it's the humorless lot that do shit like this in the first place. Well, at least I don't imagine people with car bombs cracking jokes and the explosions hit. I'd rather the on the joking side.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:59 AM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


I'm blaming Mayhem in all of this.
posted by spinifex23 at 8:59 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Apparently the Oslo zombie walk that was scheduled for tomorrow has been cancelled, I know it's in bad taste, but it feels like an opportunity lost.
posted by palbo at 9:01 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Metafilter is where I go for breaking news. In the mainstream media you will get the same jump-to conclusions with blathersome editorializing, but here you will get that plus some people who have been there, other various experts, links to the better illustrations of the principles and some thoughtful commentary linked in.

And then you'll get me - who has the e.e. cumming poem, I sing of Olaf glad and big stuck in my head. Great poem, maybe it is only in my head because, for some reason, I maintain this image of Norway as a pacific nation that has endured a brutality.

i sing of Olaf glad and big

by E. E. Cummings

XXX

i sing of Olaf glad and big
whose warmest heart recoiled at war:
a conscientious object-or

his wellbelovéd colonel(trig
westpointer most succinctly bred)
took erring Olaf soon in hand;
but--though an host of overjoyed
noncoms(first knocking on the head
him)do through icy waters roll
that helplessness which others stroke
with brushes recently employed
anent this muddy toiletbowl,
while kindred intellects evoke
allegiance per blunt instruments--
Olaf(being to all intents
a corpse and wanting any rag
upon what God unto him gave)
responds,without getting annoyed
"I will not kiss your fucking flag"

(snipped)

Christ(of His mercy infinite)
i pray to see;and Olaf,too

preponderatingly because
unless statistics lie he was
more brave than me:more blond than you.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:01 AM on July 22, 2011 [17 favorites]


I'm certain that in order to combat this senseless, insane act of terrorism, the Norwegian government will suspend all civil liberties of all Norwegians, effective immediately
posted by growabrain at 9:02 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Sorry to cramp your style, comedy geniuses, but of us have relatives in Oslo, and we're not really interested in yukking it up right now.
posted by thelonius at 9:03 AM on July 22, 2011 [17 favorites]


I can't know for sure, but I suspect if this happened to a US city, the humor would NOT have started so early. Coping mechanism or whatever.
posted by panaceanot at 9:03 AM on July 22, 2011 [15 favorites]


Italian news confirms car bomb, with two dead and at least eight wounded.

.
posted by lydhre at 9:04 AM on July 22, 2011


There are reports that three people have been arrested following a car chase.
posted by rollbiz at 9:04 AM on July 22, 2011


Sorry to cramp your style, comedy geniuses, but of us have relatives in Oslo, and we're not really interested in yukking it up right now.

Although I'm not one of the ones making jokes, I will speak briefly in their defense. For people who cope with tragic events with humor, the proximity of the tragedy to their lives doesn't change that. My wife is one of these people and when bad things happen to her or her family, her guy reaction is almost always some sort of joke, because that's how she deals with it. This is not about some people caring and other people not, this is about different ways of dealing with something like this.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:07 AM on July 22, 2011 [17 favorites]


There are reports of gunfire at Utøya, where the Labor Party's youth branch has their summer camp.
posted by Bukvoed at 9:07 AM on July 22, 2011


I am grateful to note that during similar incidents in the past, speculations premised on the assumption that AQ's actions might follow intelligible/logical strategy have generally never panned out. May this be yet another instance in which those speculations prove untrue.

Yes, same here. But, I think that sort of advance thinking, not advance fearing, can help to keep those things from happening.

My thoughts are pure speculation and nothing but, just trying to extrapolate from the situation. I think, it's pretty telling if this is AQ, and if it's confirmed the delivery of the bomb wasn't via martyr. Which means they needed an escape plan, and that stuff can be patterned out, especially in a city as well equipped, but really manageable as Oslo. They either took a car or a train or a plane out of there, Or they're just holing up somewhere in that city.

And basically I just want them found and I want them dead. But that just might be my latent watching the WTC burn from outside my window on 911 PTSD talking...

DOWN BOY!! DOWN!! GRRRR!!!!
posted by Skygazer at 9:07 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


People have been shot, but it's unclear whether this is connected to the bomb.
posted by Bukvoed at 9:08 AM on July 22, 2011


BBC live coverage is the best I've seen so far: streaming video and ticker-style updates in the sidebar.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 9:13 AM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


Article for the Utøya gunfire bit.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 9:14 AM on July 22, 2011


Sorry to cramp your style, comedy geniuses, but of us have relatives in Oslo, and we're not really interested in yukking it up right now.

Although I'm not one of the ones making jokes, I will speak briefly in their defense.


I accept that humor is an effective coping mechanism for some (myself included) when the shit hits. Indeed, I was just about to throw in with a one-liner when I read the couple that were already posted and realized how bad the timing was, so I bit my tongue and said what I imagine my dad would've said, which is, please don't do this yet.

Maybe if you can't contain yourself, you could take it to META. I'd start the thread but I already started one this week.

Here's a hint at how to phrase it:

HERE is where we can trade jokes + yucks about things terrible + Norwegian so as to allow the Oslo-bomb thread to stay focused on the still-breaking story.
posted by philip-random at 9:15 AM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]


People have been shot, but it's unclear whether this is connected to the bomb.

Could be a random dark-skinned dude who happened to be wearing a backpack in the wrong place (like Jean-Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian electrician shot execution-style by police in the London Underground in 2005, just in case he was going to detonate a suicide bomb).
posted by acb at 9:17 AM on July 22, 2011


A man disguised as a police officer began shooting where prime minister Jens Stoltenberg was attending a Labour party conference at Utoya, Stoltenberg has just confirmed.
He said there is a 'critical and serious siuation' where he is (but he is safe).
He was speaking on the phone to Norwegian TV station TV2 (via)
posted by adamvasco at 9:20 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Thank you for the BBC link, thescientificmethhead. I was getting really frustrated with the other options.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 9:21 AM on July 22, 2011


According to the Guardian's liveblog, the shootings were carried out by someone impersonating a police officer, near where the PM was attending a Labour Party conference.

If it's obviously partisan and not a mass-casualty attack, I'd say it might not be Islamists but rather domestic radicals. Are there neo-Nazi/far-right groups in Norway who might try something like this?
posted by acb at 9:21 AM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


Car Bomb Humor: Beyond the Pale? That is a pretty terrible VW ad, but I laughed.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:22 AM on July 22, 2011


From SkyNews on Twitter: "Sky sources: Widespread reports of attack on children's summer camp in Norway"

I'm seeing other reports that the camp is for children of Labour party members. I really, really, really fucking hope this is just panic reporting and not real.
posted by sugarfish at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2011


[took down a few comments early, please be careful with your jokes? Thank you.]
posted by jessamyn at 9:25 AM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


Oslo journalist Hans Torgersen tells the BBC there have been reports that a gunman dressed as a policeman has attacked a Labour Party youth camp at an island just outside of Oslo.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 9:25 AM on July 22, 2011


I was listening to the PM's interview on TV2, but I don't think he said that he was actually at Utøya when it happened.
posted by Bukvoed at 9:26 AM on July 22, 2011


All this damage from one car?
posted by futz at 9:31 AM on July 22, 2011


Metafilter is terrible at breaking news.

I disagree. I work at a news organization and this is the first place I heard about the explosion -- a couple minutes before it started popping up on the newsroom's flatscreens that are permanently tuned to network and cable news.

This post is dated 10:15 am (EST). The Al-Jazeera anchor and the witness she was interviewing said the blast happened at 10:20 or 10:30 am. That's pretty quick; the FP went up before the blast even occurred, according to AJ! (No conspiracy theory here; the source was obviously shaken and unsure of the exact timeline. Point is, we has this post a very few minutes after the event).

MeFi doesn't break stories first, and obviously when we re-report what we're hearing on BBC or whatever we're in danger of going on the record with incorrect information, but I think with all the highly engaged MeFites scattered across the globe, this is actually a very good place to come to learn about fast-developing stories.

I have vivid memories of repeatedly refreshing FP Astro Zombie posted minutes after the 2009 Mumbai hotel attack began.
posted by andromache at 9:31 AM on July 22, 2011 [27 favorites]


This is not sounding like Al Qaeda.
posted by Legomancer at 9:32 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Er, 2008 Mumbai hotel attack. Clearly my memories aren't that vivid. (My God, has it been that long?)
posted by andromache at 9:33 AM on July 22, 2011


Apparently shooting is still going on at Utøya, the EMTs have been told to not go in yet. Spare a thought for those kids, they must be fucking terrified.
posted by Bukvoed at 9:33 AM on July 22, 2011


Apparently the Oslo zombie walk that was scheduled for tomorrow has been cancelled, I know it's in bad taste, but it feels like an opportunity lost.
posted by palbo at 9:01 AM on July 22 [1 favorite +] [!]


About two years ago myself and several associates were wandering H street in DC after a Zombie Prom, all appropriately decked out etc. We decided to go to one of our favorite rocker bars to nab some beverages afterwards. However, when we arrived we were treated to the doorman looking appalled at us and demanding we explain what the fuck was going on. We, equally confused, explained that we were just getting some drinks after a zombie-themed event... whereupon he revealed that they were currently holding a wake for a prominent local musician inside. Man, we were some awkward-faced zombies right then.

Of course, once everything was explained, we still went in for drinks. Damage already done, and all...
posted by FatherDagon at 9:34 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


The pictures I've seen make it look like it was gas leak explosion from inside the building.
posted by vicx at 9:34 AM on July 22, 2011


Telegraph: "Sky News is reporting that people are apparently swimming of Utoya Island to try and get to safety.

Ugh.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:35 AM on July 22, 2011


Life seems to be inching ever closer to the dystopia of Gilliam's Brazil... you never know what will be blown up next.

Not sure what to hope for or how to process this repugnant and indefensible violence. I so want to believe in inherent human goodness but grow more cynical daily.

People of Oslo, the whole world is watching.
posted by kinnakeet at 9:35 AM on July 22, 2011


The pictures I've seen make it look like it was gas leak explosion from inside the building.

I'm not sure which news site I saw it on, but they said there wasn't a gas network in downtown Oslo.
posted by Jahaza at 9:36 AM on July 22, 2011


Ummm, am I the only one who is not ready to see the humor in this?

Humor is a hell of a lot better reaction than speculating that this is the work of specific groups when there is no public evidence to back such speculation up.
posted by b1tr0t at 9:36 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


According to the BBC, Stoltenberg was scheduled to attend Utøya today. If that is true, I believe it is reasonable to speculate that events there are not coincidental.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:37 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


My thoughts and prayers are with the Norweigan people caught up in this shit.

I know it is trite, but all the same: Fuck terrorism and terrorists, whatever their stripe might be.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:37 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


BBC reporting: PM was due to attend youth meeting
posted by thescientificmethhead at 9:38 AM on July 22, 2011


Is there any evidence that Al Qaeda was involved beyond that this is their style? I don't know enough about life on the ground in Oslo to know if there is a lot of internal hostility capable of generating this kind of incident.

Either way, here's hoping for the best for the town and the people who live there.
posted by quin at 9:41 AM on July 22, 2011


wild ass speculation follows.....

I'm not sure if AQ itself has the capability to mount an attack like this anymore. But there are groups that are aligned with AQ that probably could.

I kind of thought it could be a gas explosion myself, if it was a car bomb there should be a crater left where the car was. I haven't seen one yet but there's not much footage available yet. Damage is reminiscent of the 1996 Oklahoma City attack - and from the coverage it was instantly apparent that attack was a vehicle based bomb.

This seems to be well planned and organized. Probably not some random person (or two) inspired by Islamists. This is something else.. almost certainly a group of people. Probably a group that has been operating inside Norway for some time now. They may be Norwegians themselves.
posted by smoothvirus at 9:42 AM on July 22, 2011


Real-time image stream @ Twitcaps
posted by BoatMeme at 9:43 AM on July 22, 2011


Norwegian journalist tells Sky News four killed at Utøya.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:44 AM on July 22, 2011


@SkyNewsBreak Reports: Four people killed during shooting at ruling Labour party youth meeting on Utoya Island, Norway
posted by madamjujujive at 9:44 AM on July 22, 2011


I'm flipping back and forth to this page in the hopes someone is going to say the kids at the summer camp are safe and the gunmen there have been stopped. The explosion is horrifying but Utøya has me feeling physically anxious.
posted by immlass at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2011


Guardian live coverage

5.31pm: Neil Perry has sent me more details of the shooting on the Labour party youth camp, which suggests the possibility of co-ordinated attacks. It is a Google translation from Dagbladet, tidied up a bit, so it is not perfect.

yewitnesses told the AP that a man dressed as a police officer has fired several shots at Utøya in Buskerud. AP spoke with one of those who were on Utoya where there is an AUF event with over 700 people.

"Suddenly, we heard lots of shooting. People had to run and hide. We have been told to get off the island."

"We now have reports of a serious situation there - a critical situation on Utøya," Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg told TV 2

The police are now on site and sealed off the area. Bjorn Jarle Røberg-Larsen of Labor, is not in Utoya, but has had telephone contact with young people who are on the island.

"They say that at least one person wearing a police-like uniform was firing shots with a handgun," he said.

He says that the young people he talked to were hiding and dared not speak on the phone anymore for fear of being discovered by the perpetrator.

"Young people have to swim in panic, and it is far to the mainland from Utoya. Others are hiding. Those I spoke with did not want to talk more. They were terrified," he said to VG Nett.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:48 AM on July 22, 2011


Wow, Utøya is tiny. Nowhere to run.
posted by desjardins at 9:49 AM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


More on the camp shooting:
"NRK has confirmed that a shooting has occurred at a youth camp outside Oslo. The camp is run by Labour Youth League, connected to the ruling party."*

"Dramatic reports from eye-witnesses at Utøya (outside Oslo): 'A man identified himself as a police officer and started shooting at people.'"*

"Newspaper Varden is reporting that four people have been shot at the summer camp at Utoya, outside Oslo. The paper quotes Norwegian politician Adrian Pracon:
From Google Translate: "Based on what I have seen, the innermost four people are shot and killed. Now it's complete panic and we swim off to get to safety."*
posted by ericb at 9:49 AM on July 22, 2011


AP:" Oslo police chief says anti-terrorism units en-route to youth camp."
posted by ericb at 9:50 AM on July 22, 2011


Looks like it's at least a half-mile swim. In Baltic-cold water.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:52 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Reuters speculates on six groups that could be behind the attacks.
posted by ericb at 9:53 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


5.48pm: In central Oslo, the train station has been evacuated as well as the headquarters of broadcaster TV2 because of suspicious packages.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:55 AM on July 22, 2011


Metafilter is terrible at breaking news.

Says you.
posted by ericb at 9:55 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


WaPo is curating a Twitter list.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:57 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Photograph of the smoke over Oslo.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:58 AM on July 22, 2011


Cell phone video suggests more than one blast?
posted by madamjujujive at 9:58 AM on July 22, 2011


If it's obviously partisan and not a mass-casualty attack, I'd say it might not be Islamists but rather domestic radicals. Are there neo-Nazi/far-right groups in Norway who might try something like this?

acb, I was wondering the same thing. This reminds me more of the Oklahoma City bombing than any of the more recent terrorist attacks around the world.
posted by peep at 9:59 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


I would speculate that that might be a tasteless hoax, juju, given the uploader's video history.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:01 AM on July 22, 2011


If it is Lashkar-e-Taiba, it might very well mean war between the US and Pakistan. Norway is a member of NATO, and Lashkar-e-Taiba is deep in the pocket of the ISI and Pakistani military... this would be something the US could not ignore, and would expand and redefine the entire theater. Also, War President, re-election, etc.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:01 AM on July 22, 2011


Also, BBC is now saying that Stoltenberg was due to speak tomorrow at Utøya, not today.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:01 AM on July 22, 2011


Cell phone video suggests more than one blast?

There was speculation earlier in the day that there were two different blasts, but it then turned that the second "explosion" was just a continuation from the first one. However that works.
posted by NoMich at 10:03 AM on July 22, 2011


gnifti, could be - picked it up from either the Telegraph of the Guardian live coverage, but don't see it there now. Sorry about that!
posted by madamjujujive at 10:05 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


It almost seems like the bomb in Oslo was a diversionary tactic to take attention away from Utøya. Which makes it even worse.
posted by tommasz at 10:05 AM on July 22, 2011


However that works

Damaged building materials (mostly glass) crashing to the ground about half an hour after the blast.
posted by Dumsnill at 10:07 AM on July 22, 2011


Slap*Happy's can you elaborate on your comment re: Lashkar-e-Taiba?
posted by digitalprimate at 10:07 AM on July 22, 2011


Map of the areas targeted
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:08 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Those bastards
posted by KokuRyu at 10:09 AM on July 22, 2011


Former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland had been due to attend the Labour Party youth meeting on Friday, Reuters adds.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 10:09 AM on July 22, 2011


Possibly more than one gunman on Utøya?

From the Telegraph's live coverage:
"Lars Vidar Brende, director of Ragland, AUF, said in a text message to the newspaper

Quote "Barricaded ourselves inside. Men in police uniforms shoot. Waiting for the police. "
posted by SPUTNIK at 10:09 AM on July 22, 2011


> Cell phone video suggests more than one blast yt ?

The YouTube user that uploaded that video appears to be a SFX/CGI artist. I think this video needs to be considered non-authentic until more evidence comes in.
posted by foggy out there now at 10:11 AM on July 22, 2011


"Cell phone video suggests more than one blast?"

Comments on the video are pretty much all in agreement that it's faked and the guy who posted it is a dick.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:12 AM on July 22, 2011


Metafilter is terrible at breaking news.

::START of tangent::

Metafilter Founder Matt Haughey Put The Blog In Blogosphere
"We asked Haughey to nominate his five most notable MetaFilter threads.
1. Seattle Earthquake thread
This sort of happened live on the site before blogs really covered news, and it was a big deal that MetaFilter 'beat' CNN and MSNBC with some news. It also led to the first meet-up, which has spawned thousands of meet-ups since: metatalk.metafilter.com/523/Seattle-Meetup.

2. 9/11 thread
The planes hitting the building took place almost live on the site, which now serves as a historical document of everyone’s emotions on that exact morning.

3. Russian Girls thread
Last summer, a friend noticed two Russian students he taught previously were coming to America for summer jobs, but the details kept changing and sounded shady, and he was worried they might be caught up in a sex-trafficking ring. A bunch of members of the site in NYC pulled through and met up with the girls, explained what was going on, and housed them for weeks before raising enough money to send them home.

4. Is it 'beep beep' or 'meep meep'?
A user wonders if the Road Runner in cartoons says “meep meep” or “beep beep,” and eventually, after a bunch of speculation, a friend of Chuck Jones and Mel Blanc chimes in with the ultimate answer.

5. Tracking down an address from 1939
A member asks how to track down where his grandfather lived in Vienna, Austria, in 1939 before having to flee to the U.S. to escape capture by the Nazis. Luckily, a researcher at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., not only found the address in the museum’s document archive but also found his immigration papers and gave them to the family. The member got to visit the site where his grandfather lived several months later on a European trip."
2/5 (40%) -- "NEWS" threads.
::END of tangent::

And...now...back to the NEWS in progress!
posted by ericb at 10:12 AM on July 22, 2011 [33 favorites]


They were the group responsible for the Mumbai terror attack, which this is beginning to resemble. It was funded, planned and coordinated within Pakistan, and the Pakistani military continues to protect its leadership from extradition to India, or any real repercussions for their attack.

This, on the heels of Bin Laden being discovered next door to their officer school, makes Pakistan complicit in overt, anti-western terrorism. The US has already started to put the screws to them, diplomatically and by nixing their usual foreign-aid payday.

If it was LeT, Norway will demand extradition of those responsible. If Pakistan refuses, the US is obligated to go to war for the same reasons Norway went to war in Afghanistan - to punish those responsible for an unprovoked attack on a NATO member.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:14 AM on July 22, 2011


"Cell phone video suggests more than one blast?"

right, gnifti pointed that our above and I acknowledged.

Got it from a mainstream source and they later took it down. I try to add light, not noise - it looked sourced at the time ;-(
posted by madamjujujive at 10:14 AM on July 22, 2011


The gunman is reported to have been detained by the police.
posted by Bukvoed at 10:15 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Well, I have nothing substantive to add to this thread, other than to say that I still find it shocking that people can do this kind of thing to other people. I'm not sure why.
posted by brundlefly at 10:15 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


From the BBC Feed: One man arrested on Utøya.
posted by LMGM at 10:16 AM on July 22, 2011


Guys, there's only been one explosion. I live less than a kilometer from the attacked building and had a clear view of it as the explosion happened. The building I'm in shook pretty hard. 'Loud roared the blast,' as Coleridge would have put it. If there's another bomb going off, I'll let you know.
posted by klue at 10:22 AM on July 22, 2011 [48 favorites]


WRT LeT: I don't think the Pakistanis are that stupid. At least I hope they're not.
posted by smoothvirus at 10:23 AM on July 22, 2011


Slap*Happy: If it was LeT, Norway will demand extradition of those responsible. If Pakistan refuses, the US is obligated to go to war

Only if all the nukes are secured by NATO.
posted by Gyan at 10:24 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Police confirm to NRK that one person has been arrested on Utoya.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:24 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Stay safe klue.
posted by Hartham's Hugging Robots at 10:25 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Klue what's the status of the building that bore the brunt of the blast if you can tell from where you are? Stay safe.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:26 AM on July 22, 2011


As someone who lived a kilometer away from the Pentagon on 9/11 I can appreciate what you're going through now, klue.

Hang in there. I'm sorry this happened to you. My thoughts are with you and all the folks in Norway right now. God bless.
posted by smoothvirus at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Military sources are estimating that bomb had 100 kg (220 lbs) explosives. #Oslo
posted by Skygazer at 10:28 AM on July 22, 2011


afterposten.no link, google translated says the shooter looks Scandinavian.
posted by stavrogin at 10:29 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Is there a citation for that, Skygazer?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:29 AM on July 22, 2011


Reuters reports several people have been killed in the shooting at a Labour Party youth camp on the island of Utoya. Via BBC
posted by Namlit at 10:29 AM on July 22, 2011


Norwegian news suggests that the confused reports of a second explosion were caused by falling glass from buildings damaged in the original explosion.

Here's the NRK live stream (in Norwegian)
posted by Wylla at 10:32 AM on July 22, 2011


I'm as safe as can be. It's pretty calm now; the latest developments at Utøya have been happening pretty far from the city center.

What's interesting now is how the Norwegian government will act in the aftermath. Hopefully they'll realize that taking part in aggressive warfare on different continents does nothing good for our national security, possibly quite the contrary.
posted by klue at 10:33 AM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


stavrogin: I don't know what the link was saying when you were reading it (these articles get constantly updated and changed, after all), but it appears now to be saying that the [ethnic?] background of the shooter is currently unknown.
posted by Aiwen at 10:34 AM on July 22, 2011


Stay safe and well, klue. Hopefully, the worst of it is over.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:34 AM on July 22, 2011


May your leaders be smarter than ours were, klue.
posted by Legomancer at 10:35 AM on July 22, 2011 [15 favorites]


According to TV2 should the perpetrator be high and have a Scandinavian look.

There's a lot of talk on twitter about him being tall, blonde and white. That's the only link I could find that backs it up.
posted by stavrogin at 10:36 AM on July 22, 2011


stavrogin: I don't know what the link was saying when you were reading it (these articles get constantly updated and changed, after all), but it appears now to be saying that the [ethnic?] background of the shooter is currently unknown.
posted by Aiwen at 6:34 PM on July 22 [+] [!]


The second paragraph down says "nordisk utseende", which is "Scandinavian appearance".
posted by Jehan at 10:37 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


What's interesting now is how the Norwegian government will act in the aftermath. Hopefully they'll realize that taking part in aggressive warfare on different continents does nothing good for our national security, possibly quite the contrary.

Yeah, but I'm even more worried about the further growth of xenophobic right-wing parties (oh, who am I kidding, Frp) if this turns out to be the work of Islamist extremists. It's bad enough already.

But given the events on Utøya, I'm starting to suspect that this is the work of right-wing extremist crackpots. I'm almost hoping it is.
posted by Dumsnill at 10:39 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


klue, glad you are OK, thanks for checking in.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:40 AM on July 22, 2011


From the Guardian live update:

6.09pm: NRK is reporting that an unknown group called "Helpers of the Global Jihad" have posted a message that this is only the beginning of the reaction to Norwegian periodicals publishing the Muhammed cartoons, according to Andrew Boyle, a journalist in Norway.

Also twitter user @will_mccants posted there translated bits from that message posted on a "jihadica" forum, warning "take with grain of salt". The bits he translated correspond to the bit above reported by NRK.

Also latest from Guardian live update:

6.40pm: Police are saying they believe the person(s) responsible for the bomb to be foreign, according to the BBC.

But the attacker in Utoya, now arrested, looked Norwegian, NRK reports (thanks to @Pb1231 for the link)
posted by bitteschoen at 10:42 AM on July 22, 2011


Worst thing is that the Utøya gunman can only get a maximum 21 years sentence by Norwegian law. (Twitter link)

Really?
posted by desjardins at 10:43 AM on July 22, 2011


Aftenposten now says:

"Det er foreløpig ukjent hvem gjerningsmannen er og hva slags bakgrunn han har."

= It is for the present unknown who the perpetrator is and what kind of background he has."
posted by Wylla at 10:44 AM on July 22, 2011


Could someone explain this twitter comment to me? What's the context?
posted by Ideal Impulse at 10:44 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Oh shoot--didn't see desjardins. Sorry for the noise.
posted by Ideal Impulse at 10:44 AM on July 22, 2011


I'm proud that Norway has an absolute maximum punishment of 21 years. Pressure for longer sentences is bound to increase after this, sadly.
posted by Dumsnill at 10:45 AM on July 22, 2011 [20 favorites]


Norwegian TV2 reports that 7 people are dead at Utøya, according to police sources. NRK reports that 7 people are dead after the explosions in central Oslo.
posted by iviken at 10:46 AM on July 22, 2011


That 7 is a conflated number - it's 7 confirmed in Oslo (expected to rise), no solid confirmed figure from Utoya.
posted by Wylla at 10:48 AM on July 22, 2011


This is kind of an awful thing to say, but I'm glad my Grandmother isn't alive to see this day. She emigrated to the US from Norway a long time before I was born, and she was always so excited and happy to hear any mention of Norway in the news or media. She would have been heartbroken by this.
posted by thelonius at 10:50 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


"Utøya body count still unconfirmed as TV2 apologises for reporting 7 casualties"
posted by iviken at 10:50 AM on July 22, 2011


Is there a citation for that, Skygazer?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:29 PM on July 22 [+] [!]


Re: 100 kg (220 lb), bomb.

I think it might be NRK, but I can't confirm it.

Also this just up: Reports by Norwegian media say that two other bombs are currently unexploded in the area.
posted by Skygazer at 10:50 AM on July 22, 2011


The report of two unexploded bombs was mistaken, Oslo police confirmed several hours ago.
posted by Dumsnill at 10:53 AM on July 22, 2011


The report of two unexploded bombs was mistaken

Same thing happened at OKC.

posted by thescientificmethhead at 10:57 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


NRK says that there are (at least) several people dead on Utoya, but that the bomb squad is going over the island before those bodies can be removed.

"Like etter 19.30, bekrefter politiet at de frykter det er en bombe på Utøya. Ifølge redningsmannskaper skal det ligge flere døde personer på øya, men de får ikke tatt seg inn på området før Forsvarets bombegruppe har gjennomsøkt øya."
posted by Wylla at 11:03 AM on July 22, 2011


I can't believe every single news source, including the Reuters top five, have nothing but War on Terror related groups, consistently ignoring the very real possibility that this is a domestic right-wing group and not some COBRA-like group of brown people.
posted by absalom at 11:04 AM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


consistently ignoring the very real possibility that this is a domestic right-wing group and not some COBRA-like group of brown people.

This is because when it happened in London and Madrid and Mumbai, it was a COBRA-like group of brown people. This is following a pattern.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:07 AM on July 22, 2011


[Please do not start a general anti-religion derail. Thanks. ]
posted by restless_nomad at 11:07 AM on July 22, 2011 [10 favorites]


consistently ignoring the very real possibility that this is a domestic right-wing group and not some COBRA-like group of brown people.

This is an extremely important point. We don't know yet.
posted by Dumsnill at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2011


tv2.no link, google translated, quoting a police chief , saying the suspect called the police, spoke briefly in Norwegian and that he thinks the bomb and shooting are connected.

A reporter from tv2 is quoted as saying, "They told me that there was a man with light hair and light skin, 190 centimeters tall and well-trained, who pulled out an automatic weapon and opened fire, says Evensen on TV 2 News Channel." and "He says the shooting started indoors."

So, looks domestic.
posted by stavrogin at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2011


It's getting increasingly difficult to differentiate domestic terror groups from "white al-Qaeda".
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Really, absalom? Every source I've seen (I'm watching the BBC and NRK1 but hopping back and forth to other stuff in English, Norwegian, and Swedish, too) has mentioned Norwegian Rightwing groups as a possibility.

They aren't being focused on right now because most people seem to believe - based on recent events in Norway as well as expressions of 'support' from varous dubious sources online - that Islamist terrorists are more of a possibility.

No one I have heard is assuming at all that any one group is to blame. In fact, as I was typing this, NRK had a short chat about the OKC bombing and possible similarities.
posted by Wylla at 11:09 AM on July 22, 2011


The new penal code actually allows for 30 years of incarceration for serious terror offenses (Straffeloven §132), but I don't know whether the shooter's actions would qualify for that charge. Norwegian penal law also has a concept called containment (forvaring), which makes it theoretically possible to keep someone imprisoned for life.
posted by Bukvoed at 11:09 AM on July 22, 2011


Slap*Happy: I can understand that, but on the other hand both attacks seem clearly targeted a specific political party, rather than the state in general, is a pretty common aspect of domestic rather than foreign terrorism, yes?

I'm not upset that people are suggesting that this is Islamic terrorism - or even that it's the first place people run - but rather that the "experts" and "journalists" don't seem to be able to escape the narrative enough to even entertain alternate, likely possibilities.
posted by absalom at 11:11 AM on July 22, 2011


From the 'white al-Qaeda' link above: "They're not Muslims, they're just regular British people." #facepalm
posted by desjardins at 11:11 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


The new penal code actually allows for 30 years of incarceration for serious terror offenses (Straffeloven §132), but I don't know whether the shooter's actions would qualify for that charge. Norwegian penal law also has a concept called containment (forvaring), which makes it theoretically possible to keep someone imprisoned for life.

This is true, and I stand at least partially corrected.
posted by Dumsnill at 11:16 AM on July 22, 2011


Mother Jones has a helpful synopsis.
posted by mudpuppie at 11:16 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Oh my God. The eyewitness reports coming from Utøya are extremely disconcerting.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:18 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


absalom: It may be that this is domestig right wingers - that's a distinct possibility.

However, the party that was attacked is in government right now. It could be an attack on one political party,or it could be an attack on the current government itself, via the party leading the coalition in government.

Remember that Norway has a different political setup than the US.
posted by Wylla at 11:18 AM on July 22, 2011


If I understand correctly, NRK just indicated 20-25 dead on the island.
posted by aramaic at 11:18 AM on July 22, 2011


BBC reporting now that there seems to be a connection between the Utøya shooting and the central Oslo explosion. No idea how they know that.

NYTimes: Deadly Blasts in Norway Are Followed by Gun Attack

#Oslo Twitter stream

Utøya gunman captured: "190cm, blonde, light skin, athletic, in police uniform" via TV2. http://t.co/UC8OMpN

Wikipedia Labour Party (Norway)

Trying to dig around a bit to explore who might have any anti Norwegian Labor Party opinions:

Speculating: The powerful Norwegian labour union Norsk Energi demands that operator Statoil extracts the oil located in the Snohvit field in the Barents Sea. Statoil and field co-owners this week decided not to extract the oil, and rather focus only on the field�s gas reserves.

On Conservapedia
Criticism [of Norwegian Labor Party]

Arrogance of power. As the governing party for 16 years after the Second World War, the party was called arrogant by many opposition members. This includes, for instance, that the party often appoints party members for important governmental positions, as chief in the Norwegian State Broadcastning (NRK): From 1948 to 2001, all the chiefs had been politicians in the Labor Party.
Populism. The party has been attacked for being populistic by Trine Skei Grande (Liberal Party, 2005), Torbjørn Røe Isaksen (Conservative Party, 2004) and the newspaper Bergens Tidende (2003).


What the camp looks like on Utøya

If people were swimming to escape the terrorist, this is what the distance looks like between Utøya and the mainland.

The camp 'event' in Utoya has 700 people attending.

Others told the AP about how it all started:

- The person legitimated themselves as police when he was transported to the island. He stated that this was a routine check in connection with the terrorist attack in Oslo, says the eyewitness to the AP.

- Suddenly, we heard lots of shooting. People had to run and hide. We have been told to get off the island.


BBC reporting now speculating maybe it was AQ because of the surprise element, posted to a web forum today

...Here have reached the countries of Europe is another message from the militants and further proof of the countries of Europe that the Mujahideen will not stand idly towards their war against Islam and Muslims.
Today has been targeting Norway to be a lesson and a lesson to the rest of Europe has already threatened us since the invasion of Stockholm more operations has asked European countries to withdraw their armies from the land of Afghanistan and stop its war against Islam and Muslims, and we repeat our warning again to the countries of Europe and tell them carried out the demands of the mujahideen, what you see is only the beginning and the next more.
The reasons for the targeting of Norway there are many of the most important of their participation in the occupation of Afghanistan and the abuse of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Praise God that enabled slaves to the combined .. and pray to God to save our brothers and our fighters everywhere.
Glory and praise God I bear witness that no god but You Astgrk and I repent to you.

Abu Suleiman Al-Nasser
Ansar al-Jihad of the world


Norwegian MFA confirms Norwegian-Muslim Brotherhood relations

Like everybody else, waiting for more informative details.
posted by nickyskye at 11:18 AM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


For what it's worth, as far as I can tell all major media sources are being very careful about feeding viewers/readers any assumptions as fact in the headlines and reports, it's all "unconfirmed" and "may be" and so on. Of course the speculation will be made by analysts being interviewed but they are also being careful. There has been a report of the claim by some Islamic terrorist groups, but again seems to me it was reported with a lot of disclaimers as well, because those claims after the fact are always sketchy anyway.
posted by bitteschoen at 11:18 AM on July 22, 2011


NRK tv had a reporter in a helicopter a few moments ago: he had counted 25-30 dead bodies on the beaches around Utøya.
posted by iviken at 11:19 AM on July 22, 2011


And that right there is the sad state of things. Even "leftist" media outlets like Mother Jones fall into line with the rest of the media and seem to disregard any possibility of right-wing domestic terrorism. MJ's synopsis doesn't even discuss the possibility this was a domestic right-wing terrorist attack; in fact, the only possible culprit MJ discusses at all is al-Qaeda. It's no better than CNN.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:22 AM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]



I've read dozens of news sites on this, and I've rolled through this entire thread, and all I've gotten from it is:

1) Regardless of what country or city you're in, go home, turn off everything, and enjoy some quiet time in the company of those you love.

2) If you lost someone in this tragedy, number 1 is not optional.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 11:24 AM on July 22, 2011


(btw I was talking of European media sources)
posted by bitteschoen at 11:25 AM on July 22, 2011


NBC News: Why would terrorists want to attack Norway?
posted by ericb at 11:26 AM on July 22, 2011


The police are saying that border control will be tightened in accordance with the Schengen agreement.
posted by Bukvoed at 11:27 AM on July 22, 2011


Starting to get pics from helicopters above the island.
posted by aramaic at 11:27 AM on July 22, 2011


[Seriously, folks, I know you're all camping the thread and not seeing the deletions, but please do not turn this into a referendum on religion. ]
posted by restless_nomad at 11:28 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Attacking a youth camp? I am not sure even AQ would sink that low, although perhaps my memory of AQ atrocities is lacking. It seems more likely to be some domestic group, but on what motivation?
posted by caddis at 11:28 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


There isn't afaik anyone except Islamists with any interest in blowing up buildings in Norway, excluding conspiracy theories involving politicians or military contractors.* Btw, there is every possibility that the gunman might be a Scandinavian convert to Islam, stavrogin.

We might obviously find some domestic right-wing group of course, but that's exceedingly unlikely : A Norwegian right-wing terror group would target Mosques or Islamic neighborhoods because right-wing Norwegians don't exhibit the anti-government sentiment typical in America.

In addition, there were active Islamic terror cells in Norway that were shut down by Norwegian police, making these attacks likely related.

It's interesting that the oil ministry was targeted while empty. A priori, that might suggests eco-terrorists, except (a) eco-terrorists would've avoided even these killing, and (b) the gunman obviously isn't an eco-terrorist.

So why the oil ministry? It's clearly a natural target for Islamists. It might make a natural target for terrorism sponsored by Arab states though.* In that vein, you might speculate about western oil company sponsored terrorism too, ala nickyskye's link.

* You should recall that the Sharm el-Sheikh resort bombings were carried out by Egypt's State Security on Mubarak's orders, making all such conspiracy theories less crazy now.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:28 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


From a chat with a friend in Oslo:
i am in oslo city about 0.5 km from the bomb site. felt it well here.
it was a fake police officer shooting people at the political youth camp.

not much more, i knew people at the camp and they hid (and are safe now). 4 or more people dead there. 5-10 dead in the bomb blast. several government buildings are totalled in the city centre here.
posted by scalefree at 11:28 AM on July 22, 2011


Utøya gunman captured: "190cm, blonde, light skin, athletic, in police uniform

If true, this is particularly vile. Knowing that any survivors who saw the shooter could be subsequently terrified by the very people trying to help them, and throwing the entire trust in authority figures in the time of crisis in general right out the window.
posted by quin at 11:29 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


See, the problem with rushing to put all this emphasis on al-Qaeda as a possible culprit is this: if it later proves to be mistaken, it's going to be hard to correct a lot of people's mistaken belief that al-Qaeda was responsible, because we have a hard time correcting misinformation.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:30 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


It's remarkable that the shooter was captured; I'd have thought he'd take himself out.
posted by darth_tedious at 11:31 AM on July 22, 2011


"Some people handle bad shit with humor. For some people, that's the only way to deal with horrifying shit like this."

And some people do it for the lulz/cheap favourites.

If you really can't "deal with" this from 10000 miles away while reading Metafilter without cracking a joke, you should probably turn the computer off and go tell your joke to a friend. Human contact will help you feel better.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 11:31 AM on July 22, 2011 [23 favorites]


The new penal code actually allows for 30 years of incarceration for serious terror offenses (Straffeloven §132), but I don't know whether the shooter's actions would qualify for that charge. Norwegian penal law also has a concept called containment (forvaring), which makes it theoretically possible to keep someone imprisoned for life.

That's true, and I stand corrected.
posted by Dumsnill at 11:33 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


It's also exceedingly unlikely for an Islamist extremist to be blonde haired and blue-eyed, although obviously anything can happen. So far, the only actual culprit we've got any information about looks a lot more like a right-wing extremist--not that that's solid evidence but it's more solid than just circumstantial stuff.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:33 AM on July 22, 2011


conspiracy theories involving politicians or military contractors.

Luke Skywalker: It looks like Sandpeople did this, all right. Look, here are Gaffi sticks, Bantha tracks. It's just I never heard of them hitting anything this big before.

Ben Kenobi: They didn't. But we are meant to think they did. [...] And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:34 AM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


It's remarkable that the shooter was captured; I'd have thought he'd take himself out.

Information is still very sketchy at this point.... Most of the time when one of these mass shootings happens in the US, at first you hear these reports that the police "have the shooter in custody", only to find out an hour later that what they have in custody is the shooter's dead body.
posted by smoothvirus at 11:34 AM on July 22, 2011


If you really can't "deal with" this from 10000 miles away while reading Metafilter without cracking a joke, you should probably turn the computer off and go tell your joke to a friend. Human contact will help you feel better.

I hope you noticed that I was not cracking any jokes; I was just defending people who had.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 11:35 AM on July 22, 2011


Hm, sorry about that. I reloaded the site, and my unedited comment was posted.
posted by Dumsnill at 11:35 AM on July 22, 2011


quin, exactly right; the police had that problem when they first arrived and detained the shooter. News from the island is really disturbing -- a lot more casualties than expected, and a bomb squad has been dispatched there as the police suspect explosives on the scene.
posted by Bukvoed at 11:35 AM on July 22, 2011


There isn't afaik anyone except Islamists with any interest in blowing up buildings in Norway, excluding conspiracy theories involving politicians or military contractors.* Btw, there is every possibility that the gunman might be a Scandinavian convert to Islam, stavrogin.


Timothy McVeigh was, afaik, not a religious extremist and he blew up a government building. There's every possibility that this guy drove 90 miles from the bomb in Oslo to a left wing Labor Party summer camp to kill defenseless, isolated people on the left because they're on the left.

We might obviously find some domestic right-wing group of course, but that's exceedingly unlikely : A Norwegian right-wing terror group would target Mosques or Islamic neighborhoods because right-wing Norwegians don't exhibit the anti-government sentiment typical in America.

I... what? You think far right wing types in Norway don't hate the "socialist welfare state"? But, maybe he is a religious right wing extremist. Who knows, yet.
posted by stavrogin at 11:37 AM on July 22, 2011


If people were swimming to escape the terrorist, this is what the distance looks like between Utøya and the mainland.

Actually, another of those photos seems to show it quite close to the opposite shore. Also, Google satellite map shows the narrow distance between the island and mainland.
posted by ericb at 11:38 AM on July 22, 2011


* You should recall that the Sharm el-Sheikh resort bombings were carried out by Egypt's State Security on Mubarak's orders, making all such conspiracy theories less crazy now.

uh... are you suggesting that Norway's Labor Party sponsored a terrorist attack on their own summer camp? Is that not as crazy as it sounds?
posted by stavrogin at 11:40 AM on July 22, 2011


So why the oil ministry? It's clearly a natural target for Islamists.

Norway is a small country and Oslo is not a very large city. Most of the main goverment buildings in Oslo are located next to each other.

It's also exceedingly unlikely for an Islamist extremist to be blonde haired and blue-eyed, although obviously anything can happen. So far, the only actual culprit we've got any information about looks a lot more like a right-wing extremist--


- or perhaps just a crazy, angry person. We don't know yet.
posted by iviken at 11:41 AM on July 22, 2011


Police says there is reason to believe that there are explosives on Utøya.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:43 AM on July 22, 2011


We'll see, but it's interesting to note that, according to reports, the bombing isn't as bloody as it could have been because today is a public holiday in Norway. It isn't much like Al Qaeda to choose a public holiday for such an attack.
posted by Skeptic at 11:44 AM on July 22, 2011


Hoping like hell that it's a right wing norwegian.

Norwegian police reporting on telly right now that they can't say anything. They have a person in custody, identified, and is connected to both occurances. Refuse to state if he is Norwegian, refuse to state if he is previously known to police. Can't state if he's acting alone or to motive.
posted by Iteki at 11:45 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


My girlfriend is in Norway (she was in the bomb area yesterday and her mother works in the same building as VG but was on holiday, thankfully both are safe) and just texted me to say that someone on a boat off Utøya had called NRK and said they could see 25-30 bodies on the coast of the island.

Really hope it's not an accurate report.
posted by knapah at 11:48 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Hoping like hell that it's a right wing norwegian.

I'm confused by this statement and few others like it. Why do you care who did this? It doesn't change what happened at all.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:48 AM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]


BBC live coverage is the best I've seen so far: streaming video and ticker-style updates in the sidebar.

Thanks for that link.

I also find Breaking News live stream and related updates to also be a good source.
posted by ericb at 11:48 AM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Press conference: "We have arrested the assailant, and we believe that he's connected to both the bombings in Oslo and the shootings."
posted by ericb at 11:50 AM on July 22, 2011


Skeptic, today is not a public holiday in Norway, but many people are away from work because of their summer holidays. The time the bomb went off, is around the time many people leave work on a Friday in July.
posted by iviken at 11:50 AM on July 22, 2011


If there are that many people dead at Utoya, are they all victims of one lone gunman? That's horrifying.
posted by PostIronyIsNotaMyth at 11:51 AM on July 22, 2011


stavrogin, the right-wing rhetoric in Norway is absolutely skewed towards the immigration aspect. Conservatives are for privatization, but you don't generally see the hatred against government qua government that you find in America. Granted, someone willing to do this would be on the extreme fringe, but I have never heard of a right-wing threat based on anti-government sentiment.

In any case, the Utøya gunman has been arrested, so hopefully factual information about the source and motive will come out soon.
posted by Bukvoed at 11:52 AM on July 22, 2011


The difference it makes is that if it is a right wing attack, there will be less chance of the right wing parties moving forward in the next election and for the various neonazi organisations to use the act to gain sympathy from your average Scandinavian. If it turns out to be any form of furriner, it will have negative impact on the lives of people of immigrant and refugee backgrounds living in Scandinavia, and will also colour the political landscape.
posted by Iteki at 11:53 AM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Reuters: Security experts say suspicion is likely to fall on both Islamists and right-wing extremists following a deadly bombing and a shooting at a political gathering in tranquil Norway.

The bombing comes right before Norway's planned exit from involvement with the "humanitarian action" in Libya: The Norwegian government said on Friday that it has decided to cut the number of Norwegian warplanes participating in the NATO-led bombardment against Libya from six to four, and to pull out all the warplanes by Aug. 1, 2011
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:53 AM on July 22, 2011


Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claim responsibility.
posted by clavdivs at 11:55 AM on July 22, 2011


The difference it makes is that if it is a right wing attack, there will be less chance of the right wing parties moving forward in the next election and for the various neonazi organisations to use the act to gain sympathy from your average Scandinavian. If it turns out to be any form of furriner, it will have negative impact on the lives of people of immigrant and refugee backgrounds living in Scandinavia, and will also colour the political landscape.

Wouldn't this color the political landscape either way? It certainly would in the United States(see the death of the militia movement after the Oklahoma City bombing), it seems like you just want it to color the political landscape in a way you agree with, and have the guilt by association fall on people you disagree with politically, which I find pretty offensive.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:57 AM on July 22, 2011 [10 favorites]


good thing that they detained the shooter, they'll be able to question him (or something more cynical) and at least find out which "group" is responsible. I thought right wing extremists (paralells to oklahoma, as others have noted) as well before the police shooting. Well organised, but chaotic in execution - unusual to mix a bombing with a shooting rampage. Targets chosen well, but why Oslo? Hardly high profile. Soft target, maybe, but probably more likely you're looking at norwegian citizens (possibly born overseas) self-taught and self-radicalised. Possibly even one very patient man. Timing is interesting. Very close to perfect timing but basic mistake. Why?
posted by Dillonlikescookies at 11:57 AM on July 22, 2011


Sky News says shooter at Utøya was shot and wounded, then arrested.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:58 AM on July 22, 2011


he had counted 25-30 dead bodies on the beaches around Utøya

Oh no.

Ah, so this is why the BBC thought the two attacks were connected.

Acting Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim told broadcaster NRK that investigators suspect the two attacks are linked.

Oslo police chief Anstein Gjengdal said anti-terror units were sent to the youth camp at Utoya, outside the Norwegian capital.

Labour spokesman Per Gunnar Dahl said some 700 people, mostly teenagers between 14-18, were assembled for the camp.


Such a strange and disturbing combination, the huge bombing of a government building in central Oslo, which was so vast in its destruction, it's being speculated that it must have involved a group, not just the actions of one person, and a guy in a cop outfit gunning down kids on a tiny island with a Norwegian Labor Party camp. It doesn't sound like an AQ combo but more like a local axe grinder. But then the bomb was so tremendous. AQ and an opportunistic axe grindy political psycho serial killer loose on the same afternoon or part of a sinister anti-Labor double whammy? No, must be one or the other.

It's such a painful process, wondering why this happened.

My loving thoughts to those injured, traumatized, who lost a loved one, especially the families of any kids shot on Utøya. May those who died rest in peace. Loving thoughts to the good people of Norway.
posted by nickyskye at 11:59 AM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Feel free to find it offensive Bulgaroktonos, you are utterly correct that I would rather the blame fall upon neonazi and fascist organisations and that the political climate turn against those who believe in differentiating between the value of human beings based on the colour of their skin.
posted by Iteki at 12:00 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


it seems like you just want it to color the political landscape in a way you agree with.

This seems accurate, but also unremarkable.
posted by Winnemac at 12:02 PM on July 22, 2011


Acting Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim told broadcaster NRK that investigators suspect the two attacks are linked.

What would be weird is if two different terrorist groups happened to schedule attacks on the same day by coincidence.
posted by mazola at 12:02 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


To be clearer, I don't think that will happen. I would speculate that this is one guy, and it's not going to turn the climate against right wingers particularly. My point is that anything is preferable to me than that it is an even nominally muslim or non-norwegian source, because that *will* have direct and tangible results not only there, but here in Sweden.
posted by Iteki at 12:04 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


This seems accurate, but also unremarkable.

It might be unremarkable, but it's still pretty reprehensible. If some Norwegian conservative site had someone saying "I hope this is Al-Qaeda" because it would hurt their party in the next election if it weren't, I think we'd hear a fair amount of outcry here. Hoping that the death of innocent people will be something you can turn to your political ends is disgusting, no matter who does it.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:06 PM on July 22, 2011 [9 favorites]


Hoping like hell that it's a right wing norwegian.

I'm confused by this statement and few others like it. Why do you care who did this? It doesn't change what happened at all.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:48 AM on July 22 [+] [!]


While I agree that one should not try to designate in advance a preferred evildoer as culprit (look at what happened to the Spanish government when it did that after the Madrid bombing), there is a difference: if Al Qaeda or another Islamist grouping is confirmed as culprits, this will further bolster a number of very unsavory far-right parties that are gathering strength in Northern Europe, whereas if domestic terrorists are to blame, this will hardly strengthen Al Qaeda in Norway or elsewhere.
posted by Skeptic at 12:09 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


I don't think this has been mentioned yet but in relation to Norway/NATO involvement in Libya, that raises the possibility of a Gadaffi-sponsored attack, which is different from the Islamist /AQ suggestion and the Norwegian rightwing suggestion. Gadaffi has threatened attacks in NATO home countries and is close to losing the civil war in Libya
posted by Bwithh at 12:10 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


It also has the opposite effect that you'd like - if you're hoping for it to be a right-wing nutjob as a way to beat right-wingers over the head, when it turns out to be an Islamist terrorist, then you're giving permission to the right-wingers to beat you over the head with his/their actions in turn.

Terrorists, regardless of their ethnicity, religion or political affiliation, fucking suck. Stating you hope the terrorists help your political goals by setting a bad example for "their side" is cynical and self-defeating.
posted by Slap*Happy at 12:10 PM on July 22, 2011 [8 favorites]


guy on BBC says that shooter used the premise to "check on security" as ruse to enter the area.
posted by clavdivs at 12:11 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


"Update: Abu Sulayman has now issued a retraction, stating clearly that “Helpers” was not involved in the operation and that his statement was not an official statement. He says those who carried out the attacks “must surely be known to all.”"
posted by knapah at 12:11 PM on July 22, 2011


-check on security because of the Oslo bombing.
posted by clavdivs at 12:11 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


from what little I have gleaned, the Gunman could have done it all, set the bomb then went to the island, perhaps something went wrong in the plan because the P.M. was scheduled to be on the Island at some point and I'm going to guess he was the main target as P.M.s' location is being kept secret as of now.
posted by clavdivs at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2011


Because people of other religions always have a different skin color?

lets stop this for now please, comments are getting deleted even ones trying to refute such claims and accusations.

then why are you saying it like it's a bad thing?
even I don't know what you two are going on about, a moment for sanitys sake people.
posted by clavdivs at 12:26 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


I think sanity would best be served if people simply waited a few hours for more information to filter in. There's little filtering going on here.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 12:27 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


There are eye witness statements of a suspicious man in a police uniform being seen at the scene of the explosion a short time before it happened. That is apparently among the reasons police believe the attacks to have been linked.
posted by Bukvoed at 12:27 PM on July 22, 2011


[this is not the place to make your Nazi/fascist comparisons. Please go to MetaTalk if you need to have that discussion. It's not productive here.]
posted by jessamyn at 12:32 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


On Twitter: If you're in Oslo, the blood bank needs blood type 0. Call +4722118900 tonight!

Washington Post: Oslo attack speculation centers on Kurdish group
posted by nickyskye at 12:33 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


VG's website has a picture with several blurred out areas of what are presumably 6 bodies on the island's coast. Horrifying.
posted by knapah at 12:33 PM on July 22, 2011


Ten people reported dead at Utøya by the police.
posted by Bukvoed at 12:34 PM on July 22, 2011


A lot of stuff I'm reading here seems unproductive. From what we know at this point it could also have been a single nutcase for no apparent reason at all.
posted by Namlit at 12:35 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


I didn't mean to derail, so I will step out of that part of the discussion , but since people are reading "right wing" to mean "mainstream conservative parties", I feel the need to point out that I am talking about facist, not conservative organisations.
posted by Iteki at 12:35 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


From what we know at this point it could also have been a single nutcase for no apparent reason at all.

Right, along the lines of Jared Lee Loughner, who was suspected to have ties to right-wing groups, but turned out to be just fucking nuts.
posted by desjardins at 12:38 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


If I ever become PM of anything remind me to never actually be where my public schedule says I am.
posted by ceribus peribus at 12:42 PM on July 22, 2011


NRK: 9 or 10 killed at Utøya, this is now confirmed by the police.
posted by iviken at 12:43 PM on July 22, 2011


regarding the blood bank: registered donors only (they don't have capacity right now).
posted by tingo at 12:55 PM on July 22, 2011


If out of group of 700 youth, only 9-10 were killed by a deranged man with an automatic weapon - and regardless of his reasoning, the murder of innocents is always deranged - then along with the horror of the Utøya massacre there must also be great heroism.
posted by Chipmazing at 12:55 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


NTB, if I'm understanding them correctly, are saying that the police presently think this was not "international terrorism".
posted by aramaic at 12:58 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


The media has been speculating about whether Mullah Krekar was somehow involved.

Here's more about Mullah Krekar, who was indicted last week for threatening Norwegian politicians with death if he gets deported.
posted by homunculus at 1:00 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Telegraph.co.uk: Prime Minister had been due to attend rally [at Utøya] but pulled out
posted by thescientificmethhead at 1:01 PM on July 22, 2011


If I ever become PM of anything remind me to never actually be where my public schedule says I am.

"After a restless night, Hinckley rose the next morning for a breakfast at McDonald's. On the way back to the hotel, he picked up the Washington Star. Hinckley noticed the President's schedule, on page A-4, indicating that Reagan would be speaking to a labor convention at the Washingon Hilton in just a couple of hours."
posted by dhartung at 1:04 PM on July 22, 2011


TV2.no has some bad stuff from the island.
posted by aramaic at 1:05 PM on July 22, 2011


9.07pm: On Twitter runehak, who works for the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation, says:
News agency NTB says police do NOT think this is international terrorism. #osloexpl #oslobomb #whys
9.02pm: According to David Berry, from the department of Political Studies at Swansea University, on NRK in the last few minutes they interviewed the head of police in Oslo and he stated that the gunman was NOT wearing a police uniform, rather a blue jumper which had a Norwegian police badge or sign on it. He also confirmed that the suspect had never worked for the police
posted by adamvasco at 1:14 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Picture from Utoya. It's a telephoto shot of a rocky outcrop on the island, with several pixelated bodies. In the original some seem to be sitting up.

Scary, scary stuff, nontheless.
posted by clorox at 1:14 PM on July 22, 2011


Today 3:10 PM Norwegian Foreign Minister was on island just hours before attack.

A photo uploaded to the Flickr page of the Norwegian Worker's Youth League, a group related to the ruling party shows the Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store sitting with campers [yesterday]. A former PM was there today.

Utøya 50 kilometers (31 miles) approx from Oslo.

Speculation: 10am Oslo time an attack against the Norwegian Prime Minister, who was not present at moment bomb went off.

The camp was organized by the governing Norwegian Labor party and Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg was expected to visit the camp today.

Same bomber had backup plan to kill him 50 kilometers away, where he goes "not long after" after bombing center of Oslo after his failed attempt, which did not work either. In a rage, at 3:28pm he turned on children.

The little snippets of the mosaic seem to point increasingly to a Norwegian terrorist/s/psycho.

Random thought: Can't help being reminded of The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo cast of villains, even though they were of Swedish extraction.
posted by nickyskye at 1:22 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Norwegian MeFite here - and still alive.

Some random observations: The paramedics at the bomb site requisitioned a local bus to move walking wounded away, presumably for further treatment. Probably a lot of people with small wounds.

Apparantly some MPs were downtown at the time of the bombing, and were shown on the news giving first aid. As soldiers, they are well trained to provide first aid, of course.

Both the police and the PM will have a press conference soon.
posted by Harald74 at 1:34 PM on July 22, 2011 [10 favorites]


Here is a graphic picture from TV2.no which was removed from an article.

The Something Awful thread is speculating that it shows the killer.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 1:36 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Prime Minister Stoltenberg is giving a speech. Al Jazeera has it live.
posted by reductiondesign at 1:41 PM on July 22, 2011


That pic makes me feel really bad for the guy in the water.
posted by aramaic at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2011


The AUF website has the daily schedule, P.M. is listed. Is it my translaor or does the schedule list the meeting for saturday?
posted by clavdivs at 1:43 PM on July 22, 2011


Holy cow I think the people at SA are right. You can see someone in blue standing on the shore. There is a person sitting upright in the water with their hand raised at the person in blue. Very disturbing.
posted by smoothvirus at 1:43 PM on July 22, 2011


[MetaTalk for metadiscussion please. Thank you.]
posted by jessamyn at 1:44 PM on July 22, 2011


Minister of justice just confirmed that the shooter is Norwegian.
posted by Aiwen at 1:45 PM on July 22, 2011


The Something Awful thread is speculating that it shows the killer.

I'm one of those people who usually can't see what people are talking about in a photo. But in this one, yeah, it's pretty clear that the guy on the right is holding a gun, and looking at a guy in the water who's lifting his hands, and...there's somebody bleeding off in the upper left.

...Not sure what else to say here. Except to underline that the photo is indeed graphic and disturbing.
posted by artemisia at 1:45 PM on July 22, 2011


The minister of justice just stated that the person in custody is Norwegian.
posted by Harald74 at 1:45 PM on July 22, 2011


The PM's speech was all about preserving our democratic traditions and values. Aside from words for the victim's families and nearest.
posted by Harald74 at 1:47 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Did they really have a helicopter overhead during the shootings?
posted by smackfu at 1:47 PM on July 22, 2011


The flight time from downtown Oslo to Utøya is measured in minutes, so I guess a news copter was already airborne for the bombing coverage..
posted by Harald74 at 1:50 PM on July 22, 2011


What I find disturbing, too, is those kids who tried to swim over to the other side. This stuff is difficult to pull off even in the Mediterranean in September. It's been rainy and in the high sixties (F) in this part of the world for weeks now. That Fjord can't be fun to swim in for more than five minutes under normal stress conditions. I hope they'll manage to fish them out of it before it gets real dark.
posted by Namlit at 1:56 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


And it seems the Jihadist claim was not just unconfirmed but bogus: "A terrorism expert tells the BBC that Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, a terror group that claimed responsibility for the explosion in Oslo, was not behind the attack."
In any case it seems to have been originated from one single source (?!), previously cited @will_mccants on twitter ("Johns Hopkins faculty, CNA analyst, former State CT advisor") that's who the NYT was quoting and in turn being quoted by other media. He said he did tell the NYT that the claim had already been retracted. Hmmm.
posted by bitteschoen at 1:59 PM on July 22, 2011


"We do not wish to confirm or deny any reports of groups taking responsibility for the attacks. We don't want to make the situation seem more serious than it is," the prime minister says. Translation again BBC.
posted by Namlit at 2:00 PM on July 22, 2011


Have to say the political leaders in Norway are being very admirable and responsible:

"We do not wish to confirm or deny any reports of groups taking responsibility for the attacks. We don't want to make the situation seem more serious than it is," the prime minister says.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:03 PM on July 22, 2011


Must be nice to have a political system dominated by adults.
posted by aramaic at 2:04 PM on July 22, 2011 [30 favorites]


There are summaries of claims & retractions on wikipedia.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:05 PM on July 22, 2011


Reuters has published a list of relevant terrorist organizations.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:08 PM on July 22, 2011


Here is a graphic picture from TV2.no which was removed from an article.

The Something Awful thread is speculating that it shows the killer.


Opening that I was hit with an intense wave of nausea. I don't know if it's the killer, but that poor kid in the water sure looks like he's desperately warding off death.

I hope I'm wrong. I really hope I'm wrong.
posted by lydhre at 2:11 PM on July 22, 2011


Re adamvasco's comment:

Norwegian police uniforms.

Norwegian police badge

---
#runehak | #osloexpl on Twitter

As foreign minister arrived Utøya he was met with a demand from the AUF that Norway must recognize a Palestinian state.
posted by nickyskye at 2:12 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


It was very nice of the BBC to open the iPlayer for the live coverage to non-UK IP addresses.
posted by tommasz at 2:12 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


The shooter and bomber are now believed (according to Norwegian TV-2) to be the same person, who is blond and nordic.
posted by Flashman at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2011


NPR is reporting that the shooter appeared on the island to say he was there to give a briefing on the bombing (to the campers) and opened fire on a captive audience. Did I hear that correctly?
posted by futz at 2:18 PM on July 22, 2011


There are shades of the OBL death thread here.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 2:19 PM on July 22, 2011


Police spokesman: We are searchin9 for further explosives on Utøya. We have arrested an ethnically Norwe9ian male. 7 dead in Oslo. 10 confirmed dead on Utøya, more expected. Too early to tell what's happened. Borders were notified immediately after blast.-
posted by Dumsnill at 2:25 PM on July 22, 2011


The suspect and the police have a "dialog," but his motive is still unknown.
posted by Bukvoed at 2:27 PM on July 22, 2011


Where does a lone psycho get a car-load of (proper, not makeshift, apparently) explosives and automatic weaponry in Norway?
In his 'day job'? Security, armed forces, underworld? Black market around the top by boat from Russia? Sick f**k. Even if he acted alone, others helped him even if they didn't know what the plan was.

posted by panaceanot at 2:27 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm told that the Norwegian Prime Minister is one of the xenophobic types and that an application to build a mosque in Norway was declined in the not too distant past. That makes me think it's not so likely to be domestic skinheads or whatever.
posted by wierdo at 2:30 PM on July 22, 2011


Police say this is domestic, not international.
posted by warbaby at 2:31 PM on July 22, 2011


[threadshitting needs to stop or we will stop it, please be respectful of the conversation people want to have here, thank you.]
posted by jessamyn at 2:31 PM on July 22, 2011


He could work in construction or be in the military. Extremist organisations rob weapons and explosives on a semi-regular basis also. Not saying any of these are the case.
posted by Iteki at 2:33 PM on July 22, 2011


Opening that I was hit with an intense wave of nausea. I don't know if it's the killer, but that poor kid in the water sure looks like he's desperately warding off death.

I hope I'm wrong. I really hope I'm wrong.
posted by lydhre at 2:11 PM on July 22 [+] [!]


Beyond everything right now - I am so fucking heartbroken about those poor kids and their families. I really don't know what else to say.
posted by helmutdog at 2:35 PM on July 22, 2011


I've been following the live coverage on the BBC - very up to date and sane.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 2:36 PM on July 22, 2011


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway
posted by mdonley at 2:37 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


MeTa.
posted by Kattullus at 2:39 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


If it was an ammonium nitrate bomb, then they're not that hard to make, even by a single person. You just need fuel and fertiliser. We've seen that enough here in Northern Ireland.

And guns aren't exactly uncommon in Norway. I've heard that the gunman had a pistol and a semi-auto rifle when he arrived on the island, both of which can be owned legally.
posted by knapah at 2:39 PM on July 22, 2011


There was an Islamist terror cell arrested by Norwegian police last year who's "varied backgrounds" had made them difficult to uncover. It'll be embarrassing for the Norwegian police if the bomber turns out to be a Norwegian convert to Islam who's "known to police" due to a lose affiliation with the Islamic group they already nabbed.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:40 PM on July 22, 2011


Would you mind telling me how what you said is relevant to the story?

A Pakistani Tweeter noted the attitude of the Labor camp at Utøya, in suggesting that it seemed unlikely to be the target of jihadist rage. I thought that was an astute snippet of info. It was one of those mosaic pieces that seemed to help add up to the picture of the attack more likely being local, ie a Norwegian political issue, in spite of jihadists supposedly claiming ownership of this terrorist attack.

Apparently the fake police guy in custody has an accent from the East side of Norway, whatever that means. I read that bit about the accent on a Norwegian website that I can't find now.

Big photo gallery of the Oslo bombing situation
posted by nickyskye at 2:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


There was an Islamist terror cell arrested by Norwegian police last year who's "varied backgrounds" had made them difficult to uncover. It'll be embarrassing for the Norwegian police if the bomber turns out to be a Norwegian convert to Islam who's "known to police" due to a lose affiliation with the Islamic group they already nabbed.

Is it really that hard for you to accept the possibility that a terrorist isn't Muslim? That's the second time you've posted that information and that link. Like you're trying to convince yourself.
posted by stavrogin at 2:44 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Oh my, the Sun is going to have egg on its face if it does turn out not to have been Al Qaeda.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]


I'm told that the Norwegian Prime Minister is one of the xenophobic types and that an application to build a mosque in Norway was declined in the not too distant past.

That is not correct. To build a mosque in Norway, you only have to fulfill building code requirements. There are several mosques in Oslo and other places in Norway. Several politicians in his party are muslims (here's one, Hadia Tajik, Member of Parliament for the Labour Party, Oslo).
posted by iviken at 2:46 PM on July 22, 2011 [10 favorites]


Oh my, the Sun is going to have egg on its face if it does turn out not to have been Al Qaeda.

No it won't. They don't actually have any reputation at stake.

Was I the only person who automatically thought "right wing domestic" to a terror attack in Oslo?
posted by Talez at 2:47 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Dear Norway, this is awful, and I'm so sorry for your pain and loss.
posted by theora55 at 2:49 PM on July 22, 2011 [12 favorites]


Btw, there is every possibility that the gunman might be a Scandinavian convert to Islam, stavrogin.

We might obviously find some domestic right-wing group of course, but that's exceedingly unlikely : A Norwegian right-wing terror group would target Mosques or Islamic neighborhoods because right-wing Norwegians don't exhibit the anti-government sentiment typical in America.


Though an Islamist terrorist would be unlikely to single out the Labour Party. After all, infidels/crusaders are infidels/crusaders, and whoever kills the most of them in the most spectacular fashion gets the most kudos.

My guess is that it's some more idiosyncratic extreme rightist. Perhaps some quasi-mystical Nordic Aryan racial-nationalist wishing to strike a blow against the decadent liberal modern society by attacking at the heart of its government and its governing party. Or perhaps even a graudate of the Satanic black metal scene (people like Varg Vikernes have expressed similar sentiments in interviews).
posted by acb at 2:50 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


(About that terrorist cell - weren't the guys of "mixed origins" all non-ethnically-Norwegian? An Iraqi guy and a Uighur guy and someone else? So that doesn't mean anything in terms of a white Scandinavian suspect.

I assume that you can be "Norwegian" without being white, though - I notice that "Norwegian" is being used as a stand-in for "white" a lot.)
posted by Frowner at 2:51 PM on July 22, 2011


Talez: Obviously anything we say is only the wildest speculation right now but something twigged in me regarding the Oklahoma bombing as well. So sad that so few can cause so much tragedy in the world :(
posted by Poet_Lariat at 2:54 PM on July 22, 2011


I assume that you can be "Norwegian" without being white, though - I notice that "Norwegian" is being used as a stand-in for "white" a lot.)

Yea, when the PM said the suspect was Norwegian was he saying ethnically Norwegian or a Norwegian citizen?
posted by Partario at 2:54 PM on July 22, 2011


My guess is that it's some more idiosyncratic extreme rightist. Perhaps some quasi-mystical Nordic Aryan racial-nationalist wishing to strike a blow against the decadent liberal modern society by attacking at the heart of its government and its governing party. Or perhaps even a graudate of the Satanic black metal scene (people like Varg Vikernes have expressed similar sentiments in interviews).

When you're living in a society that's so far to the left you would feel extremely marginalised in politics if you did hold such far right opinions. With no voice and no way to express their opinions and be heard the frustration can quickly built to resentment and eventually action through lashing out at the general populace.

I would not be surprised if that is what happened here.
posted by Talez at 2:56 PM on July 22, 2011


advising people with any doubt at all about their threshold for horror to avoid the "graphic" images from the camp - not much gore, in the ones I saw, but they are very brutal images, and I wish I had not looked. I don't need that in my head.

.
posted by thelonius at 2:58 PM on July 22, 2011


When you're living in a society that's so far to the left you would feel extremely marginalised in politics if you did hold such far right opinions. With no voice and no way to express their opinions and be heard the frustration can quickly built to resentment and eventually action through lashing out at the general populace.

I would not be surprised if that is what happened here.


The FRP are the second largest party in Norway and are thoroughly right-wing.
posted by knapah at 3:01 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Undetonated explosives found after Norway shooting.
posted by ericb at 3:06 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


A moving photo from the bomb scene.

From Tweeter #darcibastiaan: "Witnesses to NKR: Man was tall, white, speaking dialect from Oslo area | Witness: Man was driving to island, heavily armed"

Reuters: Undetonated explosives found after Norway shooting

HOW TO: Follow the Norway Terror Attacks Online
posted by nickyskye at 3:07 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


The FRP are the second largest party in Norway and are thoroughly right-wing.

They're pretty light on the nut job compared to far right elements in the states though.
posted by Talez at 3:08 PM on July 22, 2011


Judging from the agenda from the AUV website, a domestic terrorist seems plausable.

schdeule from AUF website

Friday 22. July

07: 30: morning gymnastics
08: 00-8: 00 a.m.: breakfast
08: 30-10: 30: football and volleyball
11: 00 pm: Youth Appeal LO
11: 10-12: 40: Gro Harlem Brundtland.......

Saturday, 23. July

07: 30: morning gymnastics
08: 00-8: 00 a.m.: breakfast
08: 30-10: 30: football and volleyball
11: 00 am-12: 30 pm: Introduction by Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg.

The gunman must have been monitoring the P.M.s' movements. Trying to find anything in media about a schedule change.
posted by clavdivs at 3:10 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Has this (23 year old neo Nazi arrested in 2001 with fake police uniform and guns) been posted over here? The detectives at SomethingAwful think it may be the suspect.
posted by Partario at 3:12 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Norway Bombing Reaction: Oslo Tragedy Prompts Outpouring Of Reaction From World Leaders.
posted by ericb at 3:13 PM on July 22, 2011


Does anyone know what the relevance is of the #whys hashtag I keep seeing?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:14 PM on July 22, 2011


Does anyone know what the relevance is of the #whys hashtag I keep seeing?

BBC World Have Your Say.
posted by knapah at 3:16 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


The man is reported in Swedish news as being 32, Partario, for what that's worth. Also reporting that they are searching his home at the moment.
posted by Iteki at 3:17 PM on July 22, 2011


After Varg Vikernes was arrested for murder, the police found 150kg of explosives and 3000 rounds of ammo in his home. Apparently it's not too hard for random assholes to get explosives in Norway. Perhaps because they have mandatory military service.
posted by stavrogin at 3:18 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Has this (23 year old neo Nazi arrested in 2001 with fake police uniform and guns) been posted over here? The detectives at SomethingAwful think it may be the suspect.
posted by Partario at 3:12 PM on July 22 [+] [!]


The arrested suspect is 32. He may well have been 23 at the time (November 2001). It is a strange coincidence, for sure.
posted by Skeptic at 3:18 PM on July 22, 2011


Was I the only person who automatically thought "right wing domestic" to a terror attack in Oslo?

Nope, that's exactly what I thought from the outset.
posted by ob at 3:20 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Does anyone know what the relevance is of the #whys hashtag I keep seeing?

Yeah, I was curious about that too. Glad you asked. It prompted me to look it up.

5 Whys: The 5 Why is a questions-asking method used to explore the cause/effect relationships underlying a particular problem. Ultimately, the goal of applying the 5 Whys method is to determine a root cause of a defect or problem.
posted by nickyskye at 3:20 PM on July 22, 2011


I apologize for not googling for the information myself, but does anyone know more about the teens on the island? Has it been secured? Have the injured been evacuated? I assume the EMTs have been allowed on the island now that the shooter is captured? What of the teens who tried to swim away?
posted by Chipmazing at 3:21 PM on July 22, 2011


iviken wrote: That is not correct. To build a mosque in Norway, you only have to fulfill building code requirements. There are several mosques in Oslo and other places in Norway. Several politicians in his party are muslims (here's one, Hadia Tajik, Member of Parliament for the Labour Party, Oslo).

OK, I was just relaying what I was told by someone who has been living in Norway for the past few years. Perhaps she was mistaken, as she's not a native.
posted by wierdo at 3:22 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Warning: GRAPHIC (though unclear) photograph of the shooter at Utøya: click (also shows victims).

There are no words.
posted by flippant at 3:22 PM on July 22, 2011


flippant - regarding your photo - such sadness and anger I have for people who do things like that. I used to not believe in the death penalty but such people deserve that at he very least.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 3:26 PM on July 22, 2011


Yes, right-wing groups might obviously target the Labor Party, acb. Yet, there isn't much precedence for right-wing westerners doing so. As I said, they've usually targeted the immigrant populations directly.

There has however been one recent push for violence against left-wing politicians, namely the Tea party movement here in the U.S. It's certainly possible the attackers were Norwegians influenced by American Tea Party rhetoric. I could easily imagine some crazy generalizing all the anti-Obama hate to his own country's PM.

Is there any likely significance to the holiday they picked for the attack? Or simply an occasion when the PM appeared vulnerable?
posted by jeffburdges at 3:26 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Chipmazing: The island has been secured, and the police found undetonated explosives there. The teenagers are being transported to Oslo last I heard, and the wounded sent to the hospital. Some of the ones who were swimming away managed to get to the other side, some were picked up by people in boats, and the police are currently searching the waters for missing people. They are also saying that they expect the number of fatalities (currently "nine or ten") to increase based on what they're seeing doing a more thorough search of the island.
posted by Bukvoed at 3:27 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


nickyskye, I believe the earlier link to the BBC World Have Your Say is the meaning of the hashtag.

flippant: posted earlier (without arrow). I do recommend pulling it up in your graphic viewer and cranking the gamma.
posted by dhartung at 3:27 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Thank you Bukvoed.
posted by Chipmazing at 3:29 PM on July 22, 2011


I believe the earlier link to the BBC World Have Your Say is the meaning of the hashtag

Ah, *smacks forehead. W.orld H.ave Y.our S.ay = W.H.Y.S
Thanks dhartung. Much appreciated.

An interesting, worthwhile reading article on Salon.com: The Oslo Attacks by Glenn Greenwald

does anyone know more about the teens on the island

Was wondering the same thing. Perhaps out of deference to the parents or relatives whose children/family members were at the camp, who must be in an agony of not-knowing distress, or the parents of the children found dead on the beach, in the water or as yet not found, the information to the public may have stopped out of respect for privacy, to keep the mourning process away from tabloid sensationalism? no idea, just speculating.

The Norwegian press and government seem to have been elegantly adult in handing this tremendous trauma.
posted by nickyskye at 3:30 PM on July 22, 2011


There has however been one recent push for violence against left-wing politicians, namely the Tea party movement here in the U.S. It's certainly possible the attackers were Norwegians influenced by American Tea Party rhetoric

No need to import the Tea Party and translate it into Norwegian. I'm fairly sure that some of the interviews with Satanic black metallers turned far-right blood-and-soil racial mystics in Lords Of Chaos involve talk about their hatred for the degenerate, effete modern Norway, and possibly even mentions of wanting to attack it. It wouldn't surprise me if such ideas had fermented in the lunatic fringe of Norway's far right, some way beyond the relatively mainstream views of reactionary xenophobes, and finally found an outlet.
posted by acb at 3:37 PM on July 22, 2011


The Norwegian press and government seem to have been elegantly adult in handing this tremendous trauma.

I wonder how many Norwegian papers/TV stations Rupert Murdoch owns.
posted by acb at 3:38 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Thanks knapah!
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:41 PM on July 22, 2011


Ethnicity of man arrested is Norwegian.
posted by nickyskye at 3:46 PM on July 22, 2011


Norway vows more democracy in response to twin attacks

Here in America we'd be legislating new Patriot Act amendments and increasing funding for Homeland Security.

Good on you Mr. Prime Minister!
posted by Poet_Lariat at 4:01 PM on July 22, 2011 [26 favorites]


Daily Mail and Sky News names the suspect.
posted by iviken at 4:09 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


His possible Facebook page is already being passed around some corners of the 'net.
posted by aramaic at 4:15 PM on July 22, 2011


(Just a heads up, there are some really graphic pictures in those links, specifically a woman drenched in blood) (but walking and appearing fine)
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:15 PM on July 22, 2011


Re: That Daily Mail link:

It is not yet known what his motives were - whether he has been radicalised and was part of a militant Muslim group waging Jihad or was alternatively trying to further a home-grown political cause.

Wow, they really can't let go of the possibility that this is related to radical Islam. Wild.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:19 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Ugh.
posted by HLD at 4:19 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


(my point being that we have no idea what this is related to as of yet)
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:20 PM on July 22, 2011


From the named suspects Twitter (his one and only tweet)
One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests.

17 Jul via web
posted by wcfields at 4:22 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


If that is his twitter and fb, he seems to have started the accounts less than a week ago.
posted by Iteki at 4:22 PM on July 22, 2011


Norway vows more democracy in response to twin attacks

Worth repeating.
posted by marxchivist at 4:24 PM on July 22, 2011 [15 favorites]


If indeed that is his facebook page (not linking to it here for obvious reasons) then it is increasingly perplexing as to his motivations. He claims to be a conservative Christian interested in the stock market and Winston Churchill . He makes no demonstrable political statements at all. My guess is that page is some other person but it makes things (to me) quite odd.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 4:28 PM on July 22, 2011


Well, Jared Laughner didn't make much sense either. Sometimes these guys are just nuts.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:30 PM on July 22, 2011


Aftonbladet says he has described himself as a nationalist, been active on anti-islam websites, and that he has not previously been known to the police, apart from a traffic incident ten years ago.
posted by Iteki at 4:32 PM on July 22, 2011


He likes trance and Dexter.
posted by matt_od at 4:33 PM on July 22, 2011


TV2 Norway has used a partially anonymized (but still recognizable) picture from his Facebook profile. From the profile (not linking to it): zero friends in his friends list, oldest update July 17 2011.

Sports; hunting. Christian, conservative. He links to the YouTube video of Armin van Buuren's song "The Sound of Goodbye". He appears to be a fan of "Age of Conan", "Dexter" and "World of Warcraft".

More interesting: his place of work is a vegetable farm - in other words, easy access to fertilizer. The bomb in central Oslo may have been a fertilizer bomb.
posted by iviken at 4:33 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Umm... the photo on the Facebook page does appear to be a somewhat younger photo of the picture released in the Daily Mail article. You can google the facebook page very easily at this point.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 4:34 PM on July 22, 2011


Now somebody has hacked his Facebook page and added the words "MORDER" on his profile photo.
posted by iviken at 4:36 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


So he's a PC gamer. Sigh. Here we go again.
posted by smoothvirus at 4:38 PM on July 22, 2011


Awful.... A twitter account has been located for him. One tweet saying, "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests. "

Horrid. I am thinking severe mental illness at this point - although everything is speculation. Horrible....
posted by Poet_Lariat at 4:38 PM on July 22, 2011


The Norwegian media has not released his name yet, only a pixelated picture. They follow pretty strict guidelines when it comes to keeping the identity of suspects from the public; they don't generally engage in the witch hunts of English tabloids. Of course, there's no stopping the internet, and there are already several Facebook pages filled with graphic revenge fantasies. *sigh* You would think that after the horror of what happened today people would not be thirsty for blood.

I wonder how quickly the international news coverage will waneonce it emerges that the perpetrator is not an Islamic terror group (the domestic media will naturally cover this for months).
posted by Bukvoed at 4:39 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Well, Jared Laughner killed the first Jewish woman representative from Arizona,
posted by hortense at 4:39 PM on July 22, 2011


Shit. I like trance and Dexter.
posted by desjardins at 4:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


He likes trance and Dexter.

I heard that quite a few white supremacists in northern Europe are into trance. (Perhaps because it's not based on the blues/African rhythms and is seen as indigenously European?)
posted by acb at 4:41 PM on July 22, 2011


for emphasis: to all the Islam haters in America, this guy's Facebook page says:

Sports; hunting. Christian, conservative

Let's see how Fox spins that.
posted by Vibrissae at 4:41 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


Looks like he played WoW and Call of Duty. I'm sure someone will blame it all on that.
posted by brundlefly at 4:41 PM on July 22, 2011


His facebook page was apparently creates about a week ago. Why? It lists a bunch of trace music videos that he says that he likes. Favorite sport: Hunting.

So full of awful .... :(
posted by Poet_Lariat at 4:42 PM on July 22, 2011


What's with the uniform in his one of his pics? Looks like a waiter.
posted by Partario at 4:43 PM on July 22, 2011


a very white rightwing Norwegian crackpot is behind both attacks according NrK and tv2.
posted by Dumsnill at 4:47 PM on July 22, 2011


Why would someone create a facebook profile, an apparently blase facebook profile, five days before committing this sort of atrocity?
posted by Poet_Lariat at 4:49 PM on July 22, 2011


So they could have at least some input into how they're portrayed in the media?
posted by stinkycheese at 4:52 PM on July 22, 2011


Let's see how Fox spins that.

Given that he wasn't American, they could insinuate that he wasn't a true Christian, but a follower of one of the heretical pseudo-Christianities they have in liberal Yoorup. You know, the ones that don't mention the Free Market or gun rights.
posted by acb at 4:52 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]



Let's see how Fox spins that.


No true Scotsman, etc., etc.
posted by Seamus at 4:54 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


CNN info about the guy | Anders Behring Breivik | FaceBook page | supposedly his company Breivik Geofarm, which seems to be near the bombing site | speculation about why the recent FB page.

Why would someone create a facebook profile, an apparently blase facebook profile, five days before committing this sort of atrocity?

Malignant narcissism? Pathological need for attention? If it's true this is the person, what a beautiful looking psychopath. (Is there a name for that almost invisible, looks-like-devil's-horns chin hair he's wearing?)
posted by nickyskye at 4:57 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


They will spin it by playing up the theat poses by Islamic extremists, and that were all in danger of Islamic extremists, and oh, by the way this was the work of a lone crazed - note, crazed gunman, so no one could have predicted it. Just like no one can predict terror attacks perpetrated by islamic extremists.
posted by the noob at 4:58 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


I would be curious to know what "Conservative" means in Norwegian terms. For all I know it could be equivalent to a moderate Democrat in the US.
posted by brundlefly at 5:02 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


(To be clear, I'm not trying to associate the Democratic Party with this guy. I just have no idea what the political landscape is like in Norway.)
posted by brundlefly at 5:03 PM on July 22, 2011


It seems that Norway was attacked by a local Timothy McVeigh, not by foreign terrorists.

Anders Behring Breivik has been named and his photo published by Norwegian TV2 and VG. (TV2 and VG had their offices in Oslo destroyed or evacuated after the bomb.)

VG writes that Behring Breivik has called himself a "nationalist" in various debate threads on the net (I'm not linking to the right-wing website he mainly used), and that he hated multiculturalism. He also claimed that media were not enough critical towards islam.

VG also writes that according to his Facebook page, he was interested in Max Manus, a famous Norwegian WW2 resistance fighter and saboteur.

It's worth noting that several Norwegian right wing "nationalists" compare themselves to the WW2 resistance movement and claim that current immigration can be compared to the German invasion in 1940.
posted by iviken at 5:05 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


From what I hear, most European conservatives would be considered to the left of our Democratic party these days. But who knows what this disturbed person meant by "conservative". There is no real context on his Facebook page to what indicate any of his beliefs actually are.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 5:07 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


I think the dictionary is your context here.
posted by stinkycheese at 5:09 PM on July 22, 2011


I would be curious to know what "Conservative" means in Norwegian terms.

In Norway, the term "konservativ" is usually associated with The Conservative Party Høyre, a mainstream Christian-Democratic party. They are so conservative... that last time they were in Goverment, they introduced a “quota law” for women on boards. The law demands that public shareholder-owned corporations (called ASAs in Norway) must have an average of at least 40 percent women and 40 percent men on their boards or face dissolution. Today, female representation on boards has risen from around 6 percent in 2002 to more than 40 percent, according to a new study by the Norwegian Institute for Social Research (Institutt for samfunnsforskning, ISF) and the number of of women board members in Norway has more than doubled.
posted by iviken at 5:16 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


So in the end, no Al-Qaeda boogymen, no jihadists lurking around the corner, no outside threat hovering about us. Like so many things these days it seems to have come down again to this.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 5:17 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


iviken: "In Norway, the term "konservativ" is usually associated with The Conservative Party Høyre"

Huh. From the Wikipedia page: "In contrast to the party's center-right economic orientation, Høyre's social policies are quite liberal, with the party's programme supporting liberal policies such as gay adoption rights and even gay marriage."
posted by brundlefly at 5:22 PM on July 22, 2011


His Facebook wall is full of music videos
posted by Sailormom at 5:23 PM on July 22, 2011


This is just horrendous. Reminds me very much of Port Arthur. What a nightmare.
posted by goshling at 5:24 PM on July 22, 2011


Doesn't matter what we know now. A lot of people are still going to carry a vague feeling that al-Qaeda and radical Islam was responsible for this attack for the rest of their lives because that's how human memory works. And the US news will stop covering this story any second now.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:31 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]


So in the end, no Al-Qaeda boogymen, no jihadists lurking around the corner, no outside threat hovering about us.

I watched/listened to streaming UK, Norwegian, and Swedish news all afternoon, and never ran into this boogyman. Most people were assuming that Islamist terrorists were the most likely explanation for the attacks, but they were making that assumption due to recent events in Norway (see above links about Mullah Krekar, cartoons, etc.) I did not see a single broadcast that didn't mention a domestic right winger, or even a lone nut, as a possibility. There was lots of mention of OKC, Gabrielle Giffords, recent right-wing activity in Norway, Sweden, and even Finland, etc. The catch was that - as several posters have pointed out - generalised anti-government hatred is generally not a feature of the Right in Norway to the extent that it is in the US. Also, the party attacked is leading government right now. That made it hard to distinguish an attack on that party by a domestic extreme right-winger from an attack on 'the Norwegian government" by a foreign group.

Just because people weren't immediately blaming the local right wing, does not mean that anyone outside of the tabloid usual subjects (see also Fox, the Sun...) was on any sort of foreign terrorist bandwagon. In most of the (non-tabloid, non-US) coverage I saw, it was the reverse: people weighed up the possibilities, mentioned several, and decided Islamism was the most likely until they had evidence otherwise. It seems likely they were wrong, but not, as far as I could tell, in bad faith.
posted by Wylla at 5:36 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]


Translated news article reporting on an anti-terror exercise in Oslo earlier this week: "Armed police could last seen in the area around the opera house in Oslo, and violent bangs could be heard over large parts of the city. No one knew was that this was all a matter of practice."
posted by thescientificmethhead at 5:39 PM on July 22, 2011


This is a stark reminder that your ethnicity, your religion, your national origin does not make you any better or worse than anybody else. Scandinavia gets a lot of good press the world over for their sociopolitical systems (a lot of the praise is undeserved, IMHO). And yet, here you have this happen - a Scandinavian goes off the rails, filled with hate and madness. I remember so clearly, when the recent bomb attack happened in Sweden, and the person behind that happened to be of Iraqi origin. The yellow press had a field day with "Muslim" this and Muslim that. So now what? Another evildoer - but this time as "native" as they come, and far more deadly. Will the yellow press print retractions for the hate the helped stoke? Once and for all: there are good and bad in equal number among all groups of people, whether of this religion or that, this ethnicity or that, gay, straight, or X. Will this stop the scapegoating and demonizing of immigrants, and powerless minorities anywhere? Finally? I'm not holding my breath.
posted by VikingSword at 5:44 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


Anders Behring Breivik on Twitter (???)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:49 PM on July 22, 2011


Wylla: "

In most of the (non-tabloid, non-US) coverage I saw, it was the reverse: people weighed up the possibilities, mentioned several, and decided Islamism was the most likely until they had evidence otherwise. It seems likely they were wrong, but not, as far as I could tell, in bad faith.
"

See the Greenwald article for the NYT's early framing: "Jihadis claim responsibility."
See Will Saletan put his foot in his twitter with his they hate us for our freedoms and peaceful ways!

See Obama remind us that the world has a stake in stopping acts of terrorism.
posted by psyche7 at 5:49 PM on July 22, 2011


See Obama remind us that the world has a stake in stopping acts of terrorism.

Actually he said this:
"It's a reminder that the entire international community has a stake in preventing this kind of terror from occurring," Obama said.

But I almost did a double take becuase it felt like there was a pause where he thought about saying terrorism and went with terror, which by my read is somewhat different. I know it will not be taken that way however.
posted by Big_B at 5:53 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


for the record, my disparaging remarks about the press coverage were meant to refer specifically to the US media reaction.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:54 PM on July 22, 2011


Heck, just see upthread.
posted by stinkycheese at 5:55 PM on July 22, 2011


Once and for all: there are good and bad in equal number among all groups of people, whether of this religion or that, this ethnicity or that, gay, straight, or X.

I hear you with your overall sentiment, but the above does not help the cause. There are countless values of X for which this statement is false.
posted by amorphatist at 5:55 PM on July 22, 2011


Big_B: "See Obama remind us that the world has a stake in stopping acts of terrorism.

Actually he said this:
"It's a reminder that the entire international community has a stake in preventing this kind of terror from occurring," Obama said.

But I almost did a double take becuase it felt like there was a pause where he thought about saying terrorism and went with terror, which by my read is somewhat different. I know it will not be taken that way however.
"

Thanks for the full quote. But even then, if a similar right-wing "act of terror" occurred (oh wait) in this country, would Obama say the "entire international community has a stake in preventing" it?
posted by psyche7 at 6:07 PM on July 22, 2011


Well, Jared Laughner killed the first Jewish woman representative from Arizona,
posted by hortense at 4:39 PM on 7/22


You'll be glad to hear that Giffords survived and recovered better than doctors expected!
posted by Bwithh at 6:07 PM on July 22, 2011 [16 favorites]


Huh. From the Wikipedia page: "In contrast to the party's center-right economic orientation, Høyre's social policies are quite liberal, with the party's programme supporting liberal policies such as gay adoption rights and even gay marriage."

Two of Høyre's leading policitians, Per-Kristian Foss and Erling Lae are gay and married. Lae is married to a priest in the Church of Norway, Foss is married to the CEO of Schibsted Forlag , part of the group that owns of the two largest newspapers in Norway (Aftenposten and VG) and other media properties in 25 countries.

Høyre also has several Muslim politicians.
posted by iviken at 6:20 PM on July 22, 2011


After 5 years living in Norway, my heart goes out to the people of Norway.

.
posted by arcticseal at 6:27 PM on July 22, 2011


The Jared Laughner situation vis a vis the media was in many ways similar to this. Remember that throughout the day of the shootings, the general assumptions across the board were that the killing was somehow related to the Tea Party. This was a perfectly logical assumption at the time - some of the victims had been threatened by people associated with the Tea Party, the violent rhetoric of the tea party was escalating, etc. There was a sort of worldwide frenzy that lasted way more than a day - foreign editorials lambasting US gun culture and general politial climate, US politicians signing civility pledges, etc.

Once it became clear who Laughner was, the focus shifted, even though some continue to believe the Tea Party is to blame, usually saying that, while Laughner was insane and not getting the help he needed, Tea party rhetoric pushed him over the edge somehow. I am sure that some people who oppose the Tea Party will continue to feel that they are to blame for the deaths for years, but looking up the facts as we now know them would quickly clear that up. They just prefer not to do so.

The situation today was quite similar - most people assumed Islamist terrorism because of recent events in Norway. It now appears that they were wrong. Despite this, some people will almost certainly continue to believe against all evidence that, even if the lone shooter/bomber is a Norwegian right-winger, their initial 'feeling' that Islamism is to blame is still right. I am sure that we will end up with Left-wingers saying that it doesn't matter who the shooter/bomber was, this is still an indictment of Norway's foreign policy AND we will get right-wingers saying that the influence of Islamists and/or immoral contemporary Norwegian culture somehow set this guy off. Looking up what appear to be the emerging facts would quickly clear that up, but there are always people who prefer not to do so.
posted by Wylla at 6:32 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Google is useful. Anti-immigrant party basking in New York Times « The other Denmark
Much of the support for the far right in Denmark comes from the working class, which chafed the most at ultraliberal immigration policies that allowed thousands of immigrants — from Iran, Iraq and the Balkans — to enter the country in the 1970s, ’80 and ’90s.
posted by psyche7 at 6:33 PM on July 22, 2011


Two of Høyre's leading policitians, Per-Kristian Foss and Erling Lae are gay and married. Lae is married to a priest in the Church of Norway,

Eventually, when homophobia dies out in the US, there'll be lots of married gay Republican politicians and fire-and-brimstone evangelists. They'll be just as uncompromisingly right-wing, only openly gay.
posted by acb at 6:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


I'm stunned this horror was perpetrated by an Norwegian.

It's just a society where violence of this sort is so anathema to everything they're about.

I guess the fact that there wasn't a suicide element to it, might've given that away, but I just saw that as the sign of weakened AQ.
posted by Skygazer at 6:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Anti-immigrant party basking in New York Times « The other Denmark

AFAIK, Denmark and Sweden had much higher levels of immigration than Norway (which is a considerably more homogeneous society).
posted by acb at 6:41 PM on July 22, 2011


I'm stunned this horror was perpetrated by an Norwegian.

School shootings in Finland and other places in Europe.
posted by iviken at 6:49 PM on July 22, 2011


for emphasis: to all the Islam haters in America, this guy's Facebook page says:

Sports; hunting. Christian, conservative

Let's see how Fox spins that.


I'd be much more interested to see Fox base their spin on the fact that he says he likes On Liberty, but that's probably just because I'd love to see Fox get in a fight with John Stuart Mill.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:56 PM on July 22, 2011


It appears he started a small farm in May 2009 to grow vegetables and melons. This company would have given him legal access to the chemicals needed to build bombs. The farm was nearby an airport which of course has periodic high noise levels, which would have been further cover for the testing of bombs. Neighbors reported unusual sounds. This is somewhat speculate, but current leading edge in Norway news.

If true, it shows a Timothy McVey like long term planning based on his "belief" in something (per his Twitter message). Not a Laughlin spur of the moment bad day insanity, this was carefully planned out over a long time. He may have been a lone wolf with loose ties to nationalist groups who may or may not have known the full extent of his plans. The lone wolf is the most difficult to stop because by definition they are invisible - it's hard to imagine anyone but himself condoning the shooting of dozens of children point blank.
posted by stbalbach at 6:57 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


VG.no reports: (machine translation)

Critical of Islam

In online debates Anders Behring Breivik appeared as well read, and held strong opinions about Norwegian politics. He promoted very conservative opinions, which he also called nationalist. He expressed himself strongly opposed to multiculturalism - that cultural differences can live together in a community.

Breivik wrote many posts on the site Document.no, an Islam-critical site that publishes news and commentary.

In one of the posts he states that politics today no longer revolves around socialism against capitalism, but that the fight is between nationalism and internationalism. He expressed clear support for the nationalist mindset.

Anders Breivik Behring has also commented on Swedish news articles, where he made it clear that he believes the media have failed by not being "NOK" Islam-critical.

posted by dnial at 6:58 PM on July 22, 2011


Learning the fake cop guy, now known as Anders Behring Breivik, had an East Norway accent, I was interested to know about the dialects in Norway. Curious what an East Norway accent sounded like I poked around on the Norwegian accents page and came across the not so politically correctly named, Kebab Norwegian aka Kebabnorsk. Had to hear how it sounds.

The more this story unfolds, the more it sounds like Girl With the Dragon Tattoo villain, a Ronald Niedermann or Alexander Zalachenko wannabe, right wing extremist nutcase. Could he have accomplished such a horror in Oslo without the help of military/explosives experts?

It will be interesting, in time, to learn the backstory.

In the meantime, Norwegians, who are usually associated with their blissfully beautiful and usually peaceful country, must be reeling from this nightmare.
posted by nickyskye at 7:00 PM on July 22, 2011


NRK is saying that police have reported that at least 80 were killed on Utoya. The news announcer looked like she was going to break down. This is now far worse than my worst expectations.

As far as I know, this is mostly teens under 16 years of age. I can't put in words the horror...
posted by Kattullus at 7:00 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]


It's always easier for us when evil doesn't look like us, but when it seems like we're looking in a mirror we find it hard to understand.
posted by tommasz at 7:03 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


Seamus: "...No true Scotsman, etc., etc."

Eponysterical.
posted by symbioid at 7:04 PM on July 22, 2011


At least 80 youth killed? Oh fuck.
posted by ramix at 7:07 PM on July 22, 2011


NRK is saying that police have reported that at least 80 were killed on Utoya.

Holy Jesus Fuck. If that is true, it is just staggering. I have to admit peaking on that redacted photo, and the first thing I thought was "that seems like ten people *right there*. This is going to end up being total carnage." And I underestimated how much.

Holy shit, hate is a motherfucker.
posted by absalom at 7:07 PM on July 22, 2011


NRK article that reports 80 killed on Utøya.

Horrifying.
posted by rachaelfaith at 7:08 PM on July 22, 2011


Omg, at least 80 killed at Utøya?! Truly a horror. Oh no.

> Hundreds of youths ran in terror at a camp on Utoya island where the prime minister had been scheduled to speak Saturday. Some even tried swimming to safety as the gunman fired.

A 15-year-old camper named Elise said she heard gunshots, but then saw a police officer and thought she was safe. Then he started shooting people right before her eyes...

Elise said she hid behind the same rock that the killer was standing on. “I could hear his breathing from the top of the rock,” she said.

posted by nickyskye at 7:08 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Holy shit, that poor girl. Oh my god.
posted by Phire at 7:10 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


VG: at least 80 killed at Utøya.

Some parents were inverviewed a few hours ago, and several of the missing (dead?) teenagers were siblings.
posted by iviken at 7:11 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Katullus, I am so sorry this happened. I know for you and for our other Norwegian Mefites it must feel like there was a monster right in your backyard.

I wish there was some way I could help, but one of the worst things about a senseless tragedy like this is that it just leaves everyone feeling helpless and vulnerable.

Anyway, I know I'm just a name on your computer screen to most of you, but my thoughts are with you just the same tonight, and I'm grieving for all the innocent people who died, and the ones that are now suffering because they lost someone they cared about as a result of this one man's madness.
posted by misha at 7:11 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Sorry if this adds little to the discussion, but I feel I must register my utter disgust. Jesus Christ. That is such upsetting news.

.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:11 PM on July 22, 2011


.

(Goddammit, people.)
posted by saulgoodman at 7:12 PM on July 22, 2011


Elise said she hid behind the same rock that the killer was standing on. “I could hear his breathing from the top of the rock,” she said.

holy shit
posted by marxchivist at 7:15 PM on July 22, 2011


How terrible. No words.

.
posted by jokeefe at 7:15 PM on July 22, 2011


How cowardly it is to go after children.

.
posted by Silly Ashles at 7:18 PM on July 22, 2011


I couldn't sleep, so I just got up and turned on the TV. Seeing that number was like a punch in the gut. And even that number could increase. I feel completely numb. Jesus Christ.



.
posted by Bukvoed at 7:19 PM on July 22, 2011


At least 7 people killed in central Oslo:
.......

At least 80 people killed at Utøya:
................................................................................
posted by iviken at 7:22 PM on July 22, 2011


Please tell me, at least, that you mean casualties.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:23 PM on July 22, 2011


I believe Kattullus is from Iceland, not Norway. Which doesn't prevent anyone from joining him in his grief, of course. We are all grieving.
posted by ocherdraco at 7:23 PM on July 22, 2011


iviken: "Some parents were inverviewed a few hours ago, and several of the missing (dead?) teenagers were siblings."

Restated, because the horror of something like this happening to your family is just too unfathomable for my mind.
posted by Phire at 7:24 PM on July 22, 2011


misha: Katullus, I am so sorry this happened. I know for you and for our other Norwegian Mefites it must feel like there was a monster right in your backyard.

Just to keep things clear, I'm Icelandic, but I have friends and family in Norway.

Thank you for your good wishes. Please extend them to the many Norwegian MeFites, some of whom have posted in this thread, e.g. Dumsnill, Wylla, iviken, Aiwen and Bukvoed. My heart goes out to you.
posted by Kattullus at 7:24 PM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


Please tell me, at least, that you mean casualties.

If only.

"All together there are at least 87 people killed in two attacks. An unknown number of people are injured."
posted by absalom at 7:26 PM on July 22, 2011


One death is too much. I don't have words for eighty.

.
posted by cmyk at 7:28 PM on July 22, 2011


I'd just like to remind ourselves that this story is still in flux. Yes, it looks like it was a lone madman, but we can't assume anything until we have all the information in hand. The same wrt. the appalling 80 number - I'm not doubting at all how horrific this is, but we don't have ironclad confirmations as yet (seems to me?) at this point, and 80 killed is pretty extraordinary from a logistical point of view for one man to pull off like that (maybe wounded and missing?). Again, we don't know for sure. Horrible in either case. But this is still developing news and we should be cautious about jumping to conclusions.
posted by VikingSword at 7:28 PM on July 22, 2011


Oh God I thought this was horrific when it started, but this news is too much.
posted by chaff at 7:29 PM on July 22, 2011


Once and for all: there are good and bad in equal number among all groups of people, whether of this religion or that, this ethnicity or that, gay, straight, or X.

I prefer Solzhenitsyn's formulation, recently aptly quoted here (and in other threads):

If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
posted by dhartung at 7:29 PM on July 22, 2011 [19 favorites]


That number is a direct quote from Norwegian police, I doubt they would inflate it.
posted by chaff at 7:30 PM on July 22, 2011


For sake of comparison, in 2010 there were committed 29 murders in all of Norway.

This man will rise to the infamy of Quisling.
posted by Bukvoed at 7:31 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


I bet this fucker planned on nobly ascending into White Power Valhalla, rather than rotting in a cell for the next 50 years. Oops!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:32 PM on July 22, 2011


That's beyond horrible, but do not buy into the lone wolf-isane man there is nothing we can do to prevent this. We'll se how much he was influenced by extremist,xenophobic ultranationalist localist propaganda.
posted by elpapacito at 7:33 PM on July 22, 2011


disgusting
posted by wowbobwow at 7:36 PM on July 22, 2011


Katullus. I could blame my ignorance on a geography fail (I am a product of American schools, after all), but I didn't know you were from Iceland (probably should have known, after all this time).

And 80 kids dead just crushes me. Kids should outlive their parents. We want, need them to.

And no one should ever die like this.
posted by misha at 7:36 PM on July 22, 2011


Sorry metafilter, but could we attempt prose to express our feelings, a fucking dot, or a collection of dots, no matter how long they took to type doesn't quite cut it when where talking about a tragedy like this. Sorry I know it's just me, but it seems so vapid.
posted by the noob at 7:36 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


.
posted by mauvest at 7:37 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Those were kids... every time I try to comprehend the magnitude of this, I start crying.
posted by cx at 7:37 PM on July 22, 2011


This is just awful beyond words.
posted by carter at 7:39 PM on July 22, 2011


.
posted by i feel possessed at 7:39 PM on July 22, 2011


Where the fuck did he get a machine gun? And who helped him build his car bomb? Even McVeigh had at least one helper. I'm not buying this "lone wolf madman" bullshit for one second, because even if this monster was the only one actually detonating the bomb and pulling the trigger, you can be assured there exists a whole chain of enablers behind him whose complicity needs to be brought out into the sunshine for all to examine.

Merciful God, 80 children. I feel like weeping.
posted by Chrischris at 7:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


The numbers from Utøya will probably rise. They are still searching.
posted by iviken at 7:40 PM on July 22, 2011


80 killed is pretty extraordinary from a logistical point of view for one man to pull off like that

I'd love nothing more than if you were right and I were wrong, but government sources typically do not give death tolls that are not pretty ironclad. Actually, they tend to be cautious with their numbers, which is why you get so much "X dead, and the toll is expected to rise".

This is more horrid than I could've possibly imagined earlier.

.......................................................................................
posted by rollbiz at 7:42 PM on July 22, 2011


Mine tanker og kjærlighet er med deg, Norge.

(Sorry for bad Norweigan translation.)
posted by ltracey at 7:45 PM on July 22, 2011


My local paper covered this story today. They had a quote from another girl at Utøya who hid under a bed for two hours before the real police found her. Heartbreaking, all of it.
posted by janepanic at 7:45 PM on July 22, 2011


It's such a small place. And there were so many people there. A killing field.
posted by jokeefe at 7:50 PM on July 22, 2011


This is too much. Just fucking too much.

....
posted by Skygazer at 7:50 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


80 killed is pretty extraordinary from a logistical point of view for one man to pull off like that

Adrian Pracon, Labour Party Youth secretary, gave an interview from his hospital bed to ABC News Australia. He was shot almost point blank (said he could feel the heat from the weapon) in the shoulder whilst lying on the ground feigning death.

In the interview he stated that he counted almost 100 shots fired.
posted by Duke999R at 7:50 PM on July 22, 2011


Jesus.
posted by klue at 7:51 PM on July 22, 2011


If the Verdens Gang article about his radical Anti-Islamism is true, and really he saw himself in a fight against the "Islam-friendly media" and Internationalism, it is quite suspicious that a previously unknown "Helpers of Global Jihad" group immediately claimed responsibility.

And dear mass media, can we please keep calling this horror "terror attack" and not suddenly just a "shooting" or twin "attack"?
posted by dnial at 7:52 PM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


oh, this is unbearable
posted by thelonius at 8:01 PM on July 22, 2011


it is quite suspicious that a previously unknown "Helpers of Global Jihad" group immediately claimed responsibility.

Except that they didn't:

Norway TV reported that a group called Helpers of the Global Jihad said, "This is just the beginning of what will come," though the TV station said it was unclear whether the group was taking responsibility.
posted by oneirodynia at 8:02 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Sorry metafilter, but could we attempt prose to express our feelings, a fucking dot, or a collection of dots...doesn't quite cut it when where talking about a tragedy like this.

Prose has its merits, but there is a poetry to the physical space of the single dot. Sometimes there is a lot to be said in not saying.

“We have forgotten that poetry is not in what words say but in what is said between them, that which appears fleetingly in pauses and silences" - Octavio Paz

.
posted by Chipmazing at 8:10 PM on July 22, 2011 [19 favorites]


Purported blog of Utøya survivor. Apologies for the machine translation.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:14 PM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


It almost seems like the bomb in Oslo was a diversionary tactic to take attention away from Utøya. Which makes it even worse. (tommasz)

I can't help but keep thinking this, too. The explosion was the excuse, not the point.
posted by ocherdraco at 8:14 PM on July 22, 2011


Purported blog of Utøya survivor. (goodnewsfortheinsane)
"Trond Agnar suddenly appeared. He said many had tried to swim, but had swum back because it was too cold, too long, and difficult simply. But you know what? I'd rather drown than to be shot. Sorry. I took off my shirt, and with encouragement from Matti, I started to swim. It was heavy, so I had to take off my pants, too. Driitkaldt.

I swam. Matti saved me. He said the right thing and he did the right thing. He got me to swim - so far. When we had swum a piece Matti said: "Kamzy, now you do not look back. You should look straight ahead in the country side and think that it is your goal. "

"Ok" - I said. We heard shots all the time, and I'm still surprised that I or Matti was not hit.

(But, I learned later that he was there. It was therefore Matti told me to look straight ahead. He was just at the place we had just buried us. My God! And he had tried to shoot at us. We were chased)

But I swam. So there were some boats that should save us. The one boat threw lifesaving vests and had to drive on. Then came the next boat to fetch us. Even when we had reached the boat, so I could not relax. It just was not "yes, we are saved" - spirit. He can still hit us with his machine gun! I put my umiddebart on the floor of the boat. I did not feel safe. Not at all."
posted by ocherdraco at 8:24 PM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


goodnewsfortheinsane,

"many had tried to swim, but had swum back because it was too cold, too long, and difficult simply. But you know what? I'd rather drown than to be shot. Sorry. I took off my shirt, and with encouragement from Matti, I started to swim. It was heavy, so I had to take off my pants, too. Driitkaldt.

I swam. Matti saved me. He said the right thing and he did the right thing. He got me to swim - so far. When we had swum a piece Matti said: "Kamzy, now you do not look back. You should look straight ahead in the country side and think that it is your goal. "
At this point, I began to tear up, like it was a normal tragedy marked by extraordinary acts of heroism and humanit.

"We deserve not to die. And it's also why I write this note. We are just normal teenagers. We are engaged in politics. We will make the world a better place - I missed the part where we becam the bad guys." But this part truly brought the unthinkable horror back into perspective.
posted by Chipmazing at 8:25 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


Unbelievable. I was hoping there was some confusion in the reporting, but it's looking more and more like the 80 figure is accurate. Absolutely shocking. This is such an enormity, I cannot even imagine what the impact will be on Norway. Beyond comprehension.
posted by VikingSword at 8:26 PM on July 22, 2011


Sorry metafilter, but could we attempt prose to express our feelings, a fucking dot, or a collection of dots, no matter how long they took to type doesn't quite cut it when where talking about a tragedy like this. Sorry I know it's just me, but it seems so vapid.

The dot is a longstanding tradition, I don't see it as vapid. It expresses my dumbstruck horror at the tragedy of today's events.

I just want to come to a place where I know other people will understand how sad and awful I feel without having to put into words. My dot is to show my solidarity with those affected, and to communicate that I'm horribly sorry for the tragedy when I really have no words that are adequate enough to provide comfort. I'm a nobody in this story and I don't want to intrude on other people's grief.
posted by i feel possessed at 8:27 PM on July 22, 2011 [20 favorites]


For those not following the WaPo Twitter list, U.S.-based Lene Johansen is compiling and translating Breivik's past online commentary.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:29 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


As of 2008, Anders Behring Breivik was a member of the same Freemason Lodge (with 813 members in total) as the former Supreme Court Justice of Norway, a former Premier League footballer and one of the richest investors in Norway. I assume the lodge would not accept raving nutcases as members. Somebody must have liked him.
posted by iviken at 8:31 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]


MSNBC, at least, goes there.
posted by gimonca at 8:34 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Appalling stuff. 87 deaths is really almost unbelievable. We were stunned over here when we read that. Very, very sad.

Over on a right-wing blog I was reading they are bizarrely assuming this guy wanted to be blown up on the island and the attack would be blamed on Muslims, sparking a backlash.
posted by jamesonandwater at 8:35 PM on July 22, 2011


Oh my God. It was bad enough when they were reporting 4 or 5 deaths at the youth camp. When I saw the new figure of 80, I thought it had to be a misprint. I wish it were. This is just fucking dreadful.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 8:36 PM on July 22, 2011


It's not a large group, but every Norwegian person I've ever known or called a friend has been gracious, gentle, and above all, civilized. If any country can bravely and honorably rise from such senseless murder of its innocents, it is Norway.

Peace and love to you, Norwegians of MeFi and throughout the world.
posted by melissa may at 8:37 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


One death. Eighty deaths. I don't know why one is so much worse than the other but it is isn't it? Horrible to contemplate how a person can do this. Even more horrible to contemplate that this kind of thing,and worse, goes on each and every day in various genocides around the world. There are just no right words are there?
posted by Poet_Lariat at 8:39 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Anders Behring Breivik stated to the commercial register that his farming company, Breivik Geofarms, were growing vegetables, melons and root vegetables. That's odd, because nobody grows melons commercially in Norway. It's too cold. Could this have been a creepy hint of his intentions with his venture?

"Melon farmer: Somebody who's great with a gun, especially at getting head shots.

Kyle's a melon farmer, when he leaves a room all you see is brains splattered all over the walls."
posted by iviken at 8:40 PM on July 22, 2011


MSNBC, at least, goes there.

It's on the MSBC site, but that's Reuters, not MSNBC report (and note that it's "analysis" not "news".)
posted by Jahaza at 8:46 PM on July 22, 2011


That's odd, because nobody grows melons commercially in Norway. It's too cold.

You can grow melons in greenhouses. More likely a cover for buying a particular kind of fertilizer in large quantities.
posted by anigbrowl at 8:49 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


bizarrely assuming this guy wanted to be blown up on the island and the attack would be blamed on Muslims, sparking a backlash.

Charles Manson wanted to start a race war with Helter Skelter.
posted by stbalbach at 8:51 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


You can grow melons in greenhouses.

I have never seen a Norwegian grown melon in the local supermarkets - or even the local farmers' market.
posted by iviken at 8:58 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


I assume the lodge would not accept raving nutcases as members. Somebody must have liked him.

When reading some of the correspondence he did with document.no (http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/) he gives the impression of being fairly eloquent (with the caveat that Norwegian isn't my first language) and seemingly intelligent. I'm sure he'd be able to make polite conversation. The opinions he states are antimuslim, anti-multiculturalism, anti-socialism, but not totalitarian. He comes across as a far right national conservative, not as a neonazi. I think this distinction is important if we are to try to analyse where he came from. This guy is an extremist and psychopathic member of a national conservative movement that is controversial, but fairly popular to the point of national conservative parties being represented in the Scandinavian parliaments.
posted by cx at 8:59 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


growing vegetables, melons and root vegetables.

This is a generic code; they are using the NACE codes, which are a Europe-wide standard. There are similar codes used in other areas (NAICS is the North American version), to classify businesses into standard categories for various statistical purposes.

Melons are lumped in with tubers and other vegetables, because they are all annual crops grown in fields. The code on the registry is 01.130; anything that starts 01.xxx are agricultural businesses (for instance, 01.4xx is animal husbandry), 01.1xx are annual field crops (e.g. 01.15x is tobacco). The intention is to have everything classified somehow, across the EU (and the potential extents of the EU, I guess). 01.220 is the growing of tropical and semitropical fruits, 01.440 is the raising of camels and camelids.

I think I'm babbling about classification schemes as a vague pushback against the seeming randomness of the events today.

.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 9:04 PM on July 22, 2011 [22 favorites]


Yes, cx, I came away with a similar opinion.

Anders Behring Breivik in his freemason outfit. About the regalia. From that page it looks like he was connected with St. John's Lodge? More about the Norwegian Order of Freemasons.
posted by nickyskye at 9:05 PM on July 22, 2011


Eighty killed in the shooting?!
posted by telstar at 9:13 PM on July 22, 2011


The NY Times confirms the "at least 80" dead figure and has a bit more detail about the suspect:

A Facebook page matching his name and the photo given out by the police was set up just a few days ago. It listed his religion as Christian, politics as conservative. It said he enjoys hunting, the video games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and books including Machiavelli’s “The Prince” and George Orwell’s “1984.”

It is probably too much to hope that the inevitable media hunt for explanations aside from "because he was a sociopathic lunatic" will sieze on Machiavelli instead of the video games.

.
posted by gompa at 9:15 PM on July 22, 2011


How the hell do you kill 80 people with a pistol :( ? That takes a lot of time. Perhaps it was some other kind of a weapon - an assault rifle perhaps? I would be interested in knowing what kind of weapon it was and where he got it from.

Does anyone know if there is a web site anywhere where people can make a note expressing their condolences? Something like that? It is a very small gesture , perhaps without enough meaning, but it is all that I can think of to offer.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 9:20 PM on July 22, 2011


I just got up and checked the news over here. Right now I'm feeling nauseous. Later today I have to explain this to our oldest child (soon to be 7). Ugh...

Remember, we're a small country. Adjusted for population this has the impact of over 5400 US deaths. A large percentage of Norwegians are, or know people who are, directly affected by this.
posted by Harald74 at 9:22 PM on July 22, 2011 [13 favorites]


Does anyone know if there is a web site anywhere where people can make a note expressing their condolences? Something like that?

There will probably be one when the death toll is completed. I'll try to remember to post it here.
posted by Harald74 at 9:23 PM on July 22, 2011


That would be nice Harald
posted by Poet_Lariat at 9:24 PM on July 22, 2011


Condolences.

.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:26 PM on July 22, 2011


iviken, I really really doubt anyone has ever seriously used "melon farmer" to describe a talented shooter. "Melon farmer" is used to censor "motherfucker" in movies shown on TV. One of the most famous examples is in Die Hard, where "Yippee Ki-yay, motherfucker" bizarrely becomes "Yippee ki-yay, melon farmer". I suspect that urbandictionary definition is a reference to that, possibly as filtered through multiplayer FPS videogame lexicon. I doubt this guy added melons to his farm description as a shoutout to the TV version of Die Hard.

I could be wrong about all this, and maybe you knew all that already. Maybe melon farmer has a long history in military slang that I don't know about.
posted by thirteenkiller at 9:27 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


I second cx's reading of the guy's comments at document.no. Interesting to note that he distances himself from nazi ideology (they're against the free market, see).
posted by Harald74 at 9:29 PM on July 22, 2011


Just got home from work selling beer to people at the Orioles game. This is shocking, sad, and awful news. I have nothing to add but my condolences to the Norwegian people. How many parents are grieving today for their children?

Gives me sweating out in the heat a lot of perspective.

.
posted by josher71 at 9:34 PM on July 22, 2011


Re: comments upthread on the Progress Party (FRP) being right-wing: They are a bit to the right in a Norwegian context. This means still being committed to socialized health care, care of the elderly, schooling and so on. They want more of these functions to be run (but not financed) by private parties, though, and want to give the tax payers more input as to how to use social services (i.e. choose a good hospital, not just being sent to the local one). They want to reduce the number of immigrants and put more restrictions on those who arrive, i.e. closed detention facilities., until they are cleared.

They are more often called "populist" than "right wing" locally. They are also to the left of most any national-level politician in the US.
posted by Harald74 at 9:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [11 favorites]


Happened on a discussion about Breivik's age, 32, and the possibility that his committing this atrocity now had to do with Masonic ritual, reaching the 32nd degree.

32° Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret. This degree describes the victory of the spiritual over the human in man and the conquest of appetites and passions by moral sense and reason. The exemplar represents every Freemason eager to serve humanity but caught between self-interest and the call of duty. Duty often requires sacrifice, sometimes the supreme sacrifice.

Reading the blog of the Utøya survivor. Wow, a harrowing experience.
posted by nickyskye at 9:43 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Happened on a discussion about Breivik's age, 32, and the possibility that his committing this atrocity now had to do with Masonic ritual, reaching the 32nd degree.

32° Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret. This degree describes the victory of the spiritual over the human in man and the conquest of appetites and passions by moral sense and reason. The exemplar represents every Freemason eager to serve humanity but caught between self-interest and the call of duty. Duty often requires sacrifice, sometimes the supreme sacrifice.


Right, because nothing says you want to serve humanity and demonstrate your moral and intellectual development like murdering 87 or more people. Please spare us your ridiculous conspiracy theories.
posted by anigbrowl at 9:53 PM on July 22, 2011 [9 favorites]


.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:55 PM on July 22, 2011


VG (one of our biggest newspapers) have a short English article up. It's being updated periodically.
posted by Harald74 at 9:56 PM on July 22, 2011


I bet this fucker planned on nobly ascending into White Power Valhalla, rather than rotting in a cell for the next 50 years. Oops!

I am a suspicion that things may, horribly, be going according to plan for him. It'll be maybe the biggest trial in Norwegian history - almost certainly the one with the most global media exposure. He thinks perhaps that that means he'll have a platform to broadcast his ideas... probably considers himself a hero, a living martyr even. Which is crazy, but then he is crazy.
posted by Bwithh at 10:05 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Who could stand there and kill over 80 people? Let alone 80 of what are not much more than children? Jesus wept. And wept some more because there is no sense to be made of this.

My heart bleeds for everyone affected by this. It's pathetic that that is all I can say, but I am bewildered by this, like so many others.

.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 10:05 PM on July 22, 2011


"I am a suspicion"? Oops - I mean "I have a suspicion"
posted by Bwithh at 10:05 PM on July 22, 2011


This is far worse than my fears when I was here earlier today ... my god, killing the kids, that is beyond horror.

My most sincere condolences to all the people of Norway... most particularly, our own mefites.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:07 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Ai ai ai, anigbrowl, the guy, Breivik, is shown wearing his freemason outfit, in full regalia. That's a fact, not a theory, conspiracy or otherwise. He is reported to belong to the Saint John's Masonic Lodge. Since he's acted as a psychotic mass murderer, it seems logical that everything he has done today is based on hate. The speculation was that he mangled his freemason belief system.
posted by nickyskye at 10:11 PM on July 22, 2011


Yeah, lone nut. I hate to dismiss such incredible violence with the "nut" badge, but there it is. Norway is famous for allowing anyone and everyone to own automatic weapons, and now that's pretty much at an end.

My own gun-control views were, up until 20 minutes ago, formed by Switzerland, Israel and Norway - a decent, law-abiding culture would prevent catastrophe. I was clearly wrong. Considering the ordinance available to a rogue lunatic in Norway, yeah, 80 dead children is a believable bodycount.

NRA spin in 3... 2... 1...
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:13 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Oh, I've already read a bunch of comments elsewhere about how it could've been stopped sooner, if only some of the kids on the island were armed. I'm so glad we haven't slid off into that gun control morass here.
posted by stinkycheese at 10:16 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Norway is famous for allowing anyone and everyone to own automatic weapons

Why do you suppose that was allowed? A weapon for self protection seems understandable. But automatic?
posted by nickyskye at 10:17 PM on July 22, 2011


It's not just the guns Slap*Happy ( I'm against handguns fwiw) but he also created a sizable car bomb as well. How do you stop that? How do you stop the insane, the psychotic, the utterly and irrevocably mad? I have no answer.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:17 PM on July 22, 2011


Norway is famous for allowing anyone and everyone to own automatic weapons

Citation?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:17 PM on July 22, 2011


Yeah. Name one mass-murderer stopped mid-rampage with a bullet by a gunslinging bystander.

You.

Can.

Not.

If you can... then name =three=...
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:18 PM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


Double Post Be Damned...


You will notice the bomb did far less damage than the gun. This is something the US learned in the Civil War, and everyone else in WWI.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:19 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Gun politics in Norway: There is a total ban on automatic weapons for civilians, unless they fall into the collector category. Modification of semi-automatic guns into fully automatic without the consent of the police is a felony crime.
posted by nickyskye at 10:20 PM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]


.
posted by ob at 10:32 PM on July 22, 2011


How did the guy get as far in life as he did with no one noticing that he was insane? With the Loughner kid, it came out later that there were a whole lot of indicators in his interactions with his community college and the local police that everyone chose to ignore. I wonder what the story will eventually be when his friends and acquaintances are interviewed?
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:33 PM on July 22, 2011


There is no way to process this horror. It shouldn't be, it makes no sense, and even from here in Sweden it feels as if it has broken and destroyed something intangible, in addition to all those young lives, and the lives of their families and friends and survivors.

My heart goes out to Norway.
posted by harujion at 10:38 PM on July 22, 2011


He will be charged tomorrow and then we will likely seem some information about motive.

The right-wing politics are more likely an expression of his personality. One indication is his claim on his Facebook page (now taken down) to have the equivalent of a MPSC (Masters of Political Science?) and a BBA (Bachelors of Business Administration?): "Approximately 14 500 hours of study equivalent to BBA, MPS, MHist + approx 3 000 hours of study in micro and macro finance, religion+"

The Facebook page is only a couple of weeks old. He reportedly had other Facebook account(s) cancelled for abusive language. So the claim to the equivalent of multiple degrees was important to him. It is the longest self-description text on his FB page. It seems very arrogant.

This attack required resources and planning, it wasn't a spur of the moment thing. Both the bombing and shooting locations have deep political importance. The horrendous murders at the camp will have a very serious and lasting impact on the Labor party. So the motive is very likely related to domestic politics.

It is also likely that he decided on the terroristic crimes as the result of a personal crisis of some sort. This is very common in extremist violence. Wait for his history to emerge. It may take a while, but keeping an open mind always makes it easier to grasp the situation. Things are often much stranger than stereotypes.
posted by warbaby at 10:38 PM on July 22, 2011 [10 favorites]


Ai ai ai, anigbrowl, the guy, Breivik, is shown wearing his freemason outfit, in full regalia. That's a fact, not a theory, conspiracy or otherwise. He is reported to belong to the Saint John's Masonic Lodge. Since he's acted as a psychotic mass murderer, it seems logical that everything he has done today is based on hate. The speculation was that he mangled his freemason belief system.

Did he join the Masons today? Probably not. I see he's also wearing pants. Maybe he mangled his trouser belief system. This is jsut as stupid as the rush to judgment about Islamic terrorism being the cause earlier today. Freemasonry is not typically associated with mass murder, and the random snippet you quoted was completely at odds with the guy's actions. You didn't even bother to provide a link to the discussion you approvingly cited, which makes me guess it was on some fruitcake site like godlikeproductions or infowars.

Please, just stop. Your conspiracy-mongering free-association BS is just not appropriate here. If you can find some evidence of him saying he's doing for Freemasonry then I'll admit I was wrong, but until then you're just making stuff up.
posted by anigbrowl at 10:41 PM on July 22, 2011 [11 favorites]


No. There is no relationship between the murderer and reality. He wasn't controlled by Masons, or directed by Islamist or Nationalist cabals. Like Loughner, he's merely an above-average intellect bent by madness to murder his countrymen. We have lots of them here in the US, including black, asian and white mass murderers.

One of them from the '70s just had their code cracked and the crack posted here just today...
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:47 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Seconding your thoughts warbaby. I think that's an astute take on the situation.

anigbrowl, have a cup of tea and chill please, I also agree with warbaby that "Things are often much stranger than stereotypes."

As far as speculating accuracy goes, I was pretty accurate in this thread, in my second comment, wondering if it were a conservative anti-Labour Party attacker and pretty much nailed down the scenario in a speculation an hour and a half after the Utoya attack.
posted by nickyskye at 11:02 PM on July 22, 2011


Killing 80 people in a relatively short time is why automatic firearms were invented. In the recent wars in the Balkans it was nothing unusual to see similar kill ratios.
He had a pistol too, but as a couple people noted earlier, killing 80 or so people with that would wear you out in a hurry. Your trigger finger and wrist would be toast.

I feel so bad for the Norwegian people.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:09 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


"Today, free government was attacked, freedom of association was attacked, the spirit of youth was attacked. But we will kick back and say that these are values that are dear to us, and we intend to defend them and Norway will be recognizable tomorrow as the Norway our friends and partners around the world have known so far." - Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store

Amazing. I've always admired the Scandinavian people, and have been really worried that today's atrocities in Oslo would be used as an excuse to roll-out the police state apparatus in that last bastion of free humanity in the developed world.

Right, because nothing says you want to serve humanity and demonstrate your moral and intellectual development like murdering 87 or more people. Please spare us your ridiculous conspiracy theories.

No doubt that most Masons are "pass the potato salad" well-intentioned folks. But your comment indicates an ignorance of history as it regards Masonic involvement with acts of terror. See the P2 Lodge, and their connection to the Bologna train station bombing. (I'm not at all suggesting that today's attack was planned, executed, or sanctioned by Masons or members of any other fraternal order...just pointing out that there is a history of Masonic lodges engaging in acts other than serving humanity and demonstrating moral and intellectual development.)
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:10 PM on July 22, 2011


I just logged in after being away for 3 hours and am stunned by the number of victims. So senseless. I have a lot of good Norwegian friends and very fond memories of our time living in Norway and I grieve for them.

All min kjærlighet og bønner til Norge.
posted by arcticseal at 11:11 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Also I find it curious that his facebook and twitter accounts were created just days ago.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:14 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


But your comment indicates an ignorance of history as it regards Masonic involvement with acts of terror.

Oh yes, I own up to knowing absolutely zero about Masonic anything and generally zero interest in the topic as well.

My thoughts are that this mass murderer committed a heinous crime today and the impact it will have. He mangled whatever belief system he came across and used it to justify his motivation for murder.
posted by nickyskye at 11:24 PM on July 22, 2011


Re: speculations on the firearms used. Eye witnesses report that he was firing one shot every ten seconds or so. When the press reports something as an "automatic" weapon, more often than not a semi-automatic was involved (i.e. one shot per pull of the trigger, not a stream of bullets). The firing rate displayed can also be sustained with a manual repeating or even single shot firearm.
posted by Harald74 at 11:28 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


^Name one mass-murderer stopped mid-rampage with a bullet by a gunslinging bystander.

Matthew Murray

Murray was carrying two handguns, an assault rifle and over 1,000 rounds of ammunition, said Sgt. Jeff Johnson of the Colorado Springs Police Department.

The pastor of the church stated that Assam shot Murray before he entered 50 feet (15 m) inside the building, after she encountered him in the hallway, and that Assam probably saved "over 100 lives."

posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:28 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]


His claim to have studied for 14,500 hours and 3,000 hours respectively is a bit mad in itself. There are 8,760 hours in a single year; he'd have to have spent over thirty-three hours every single week-- around five hours every single day-- for ten years to account for that much time. Though I suppose it's possible.
posted by jokeefe at 11:30 PM on July 22, 2011


He'll have plenty of study time now.
posted by stbalbach at 11:31 PM on July 22, 2011


Eyewitness accounts of the blast in Oslo.

Anyone else note how Google+ and Twitter were full of discussion about the events in Norway today but FaceBook not?

He'll have plenty of study time now.

True.
posted by nickyskye at 11:35 PM on July 22, 2011


Oh no. Just woke up. All my thoughts to the Norwegian people, a lovely lovely people, lovely country I have always wanted to visit and want to visit soon. Even more now. I have lots of admiration for the way this was handled by Norwegian political leaders and police spokespeople.

Thanks everyone for the updates, this thread was a quick handy way of checking the news this morning.


(Also for what it's worth, I think nickyskye was just posting about possible tangential information about his interest in freemasonry not in a conspiracy theory type way but in a "these may be the influences and motivations he THOUGHT he had", based on information she was finding all along - with such a horrible crime by one single person it doesn't really matter what belief system he was following, it doesn't matter at all from a moral point of view, but it will matter somewhat in the analysis of his personality I guess for the purpose of dissecting the thought process that led him to this. This is a separate thing from the moral condemnation.)
posted by bitteschoen at 11:37 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


nickyskye, my comment was not directed at you.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 11:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


just posting about possible tangential information about his interest in freemasonry not in a conspiracy theory type way but in a "these may be the influences and motivations he THOUGHT he had"

Thank you, bitteschoen. That was exactly my motivation.
posted by nickyskye at 11:48 PM on July 22, 2011


My gravest condolences to those affected by this horrifying terror attack.
posted by Daddy-O at 12:07 AM on July 23, 2011


Anyone else note how Google+ and Twitter were full of discussion about the events in Norway today but FaceBook not?

Maybe not if you aren't Norwegian. FB was my tie to my Norwegian relatives today. It was how I found out they were safe. It was how I saw my 18 year old cousin panic and grieve for her friends and friends of friends.

I am unbelievably devastated, and I haven't been able to go to sleep, thinking about how fucked up this all is.
posted by RedEmma at 12:09 AM on July 23, 2011


The police are currently holding a press conference. The number of fatalities at Utøya has been adjusted to 84, and they are still searching. In Oslo the number is still 7, but due to the force of the blast, that number is not certain.

The suspect is currently being interrogated. I can't find the relevant text of the penal code that they said he would be charged with (I heard §147 a), but that doesn't seem to exist), but it has a maximum penalty of 21 years. I don't know why they can't charge him with the terror provisions that allow for 30 years, though.
posted by Bukvoed at 12:11 AM on July 23, 2011


But your comment indicates an ignorance of history as it regards Masonic involvement with acts of terror.

there's one allegation of a connection between a terror bombing and one Italian masonic lodge, from a period when Italy (and indeed Europe) had multiple domestic terrorist groups at work. That's not enough to constitute a pattern of any kind. Masons have been accused of financial and political corruption, sometimes with good reason. But cold-blooded mass ritual murder? Not at all, ever. I've known about Propaganda Due since the 1980s, and in some other thread we could have an interesting conversation about Banco Ambrosiano, Roberto Calvi, and how he ended up under Blackfriar's Bridge. But the majority of conspiracy theories involving Freemasonry are just that - conspiracy theories. Here's a helpful list. Why do you think the Daily Mail put that photo right up at the top of the article? Because people love conspiracy theories and the DM specializes in pandering to its readers' prejudices.
posted by anigbrowl at 12:18 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


This is simply horrific. The bomb yesterday was bad enough but to wake up to the reality of the mass shooting of defenceless children as well is beyond words.

Is it unusual that the killer didn't commit suicide? My hazy impression is that the individuals responsible for this kind of atrocity usually kill themselves when it becomes clear that that the authorities are closing in on them.
posted by pharm at 12:31 AM on July 23, 2011


Could we please stop calling this bastard "insane"? He's resolutely evil, and possibly a psychopath, but that does not mean that he's insane. Especially if, as reported now by other sources than Something Awful, he turns out to be the same person who was arrested in 2001. That would mean that he's been planning these attacks for at least ten years.

I had sadly been fearing for a while that a European McVeigh would strike. But this is beyond horrifying. My deepest condolences to Norway, and in particular to the parents of the slain kids. I can hardly bear to think what they must be going through.
posted by Skeptic at 12:42 AM on July 23, 2011 [9 favorites]


• x many
posted by five fresh fish at 12:47 AM on July 23, 2011


Came across this disturbing sentence in the Google translation of the NRK website page: "32 year old Anders Behring Breivik was late on Friday arrested and charged with the killing of vermin."

It's because of an odd language Google translation glitch I didn't understand until now: the Norwegian word for vermin is "Uttøy" so Google is having troubles translating the word Utøya, the island where the massacre occurred.

> A civilian boat picks up people from the sea. Eyewitnesses have told NRK heartbreaking stories about how the driver of the boat was forced to leave more people in the water because of the full boat.

> Many of the youngsters she picked up, was badly injured. And everyone was more or less in shock, she can tell. When they came on board the boat, and eventually into the mainland, said many of the young people about the horror they had experienced to Torill Hansen.

- They have seen who shot very close. They are blue with cold and fear, pure and simple.

Many of the young people reacted with fear when they saw heavily armed police personnel in the country.

- When we saw people who were uniformed and running with sharp weapons, as they screamed and were terrified.


Video of police investigating Breivik's apartment and pic of his farm.

Video of survivor of the event in Utøya. In Norwegian.
posted by nickyskye at 12:47 AM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


He's resolutely evil, and possibly a psychopath, but that does not mean that he's insane.

My definition of insanity includes mass murder.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 12:48 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Just up. You'll have to speak for your own FB, mine is only about Norway. The one or two status updates from people who are on holiday and probably don't know what's happened are jarring in their levity.

The 80 is hitting me in a way that 15 wasn't last night. I don't know what that says about me. The number is confirmed at 84 from the island so far, and 7 from town. Some of the deaths are drownings of kids trying to escape.

Part of what is hitting me here is the political aspect. I have been involved in the equivalent organisation in Sweden, my younger friends in SSU are using FB to try and check if their friends are alive. The prime minister made a really important point in his speech, calling the island "his childhood paradise". In my opinion it could well be that this, not the living, breathing individuals he shot, was the target of the attack. I know that the Swedes I know who came up through the Social Democrat party consider their equivalent, Bommersvik, to be such an integral part of their culture, their spiritual home so to speak, that any attack there would shake every politically active social democrat to their core.
posted by Iteki at 12:49 AM on July 23, 2011 [13 favorites]


Poet_Lariat The insane are, by definition, innocent. Mass murderers aren't.
posted by Skeptic at 12:50 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:57 AM on July 23, 2011


Skeptic: I suspect that neither of us are familiar with Norwegian law but I am not comfortable basing my definition of whether one is sane on the amount of punishment and vengeance one could exact from them.

I define anyone who commits mass murder as being outside the bounds of sanity and suspect most would agree with me. On a gut level I am ashamed to admit that I do wish him great harm but something greater than my most base feelings tells me that no amount of punishment to this man will ever bring any of those people back. He should be locked away forever. Shunned. And forgotten.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 12:59 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


maximum penalty of 21 years

That's the maximum term for murder, but I find it hard to imagine that a Norwegian court can't hand down consecutive sentences when there are so many counts. They also have a preventative institutional detention option for people who are insane and present an ongoing risk to society - although I'm not sure if he's mad, in the sense of being bereft of his faculties or hearing Satan on the radio. His alleged writings seem entirely rational and his planning purposeful and deliberate. I don't know how flexible the legal definition of insanity is in Norway; merely being in the grip of a hateful ideology might not count.

To me it seems entirely cold-blooded; apparently hostile to multculturalism/Marxism/leftism in general, Brievik apparently decided that the most efficient way to further his political aims would be to wipe out a large number of his political opponents' children, either as revenge or as prophylaxis. Seems like he would have fit right into an Einsatzgruppe.

Anway, given the unprecedented nature of this crime, future release seems highly unlikely. Normal considerations of sentencing and justice break down in a case like this.
posted by anigbrowl at 1:00 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


The Depravity Scale is an international research effort that aims to scientifically standardize the definition of legal terms such as "heinous," "atrocious," "evil," and "depraved" according to input from the general public.
posted by nickyskye at 1:06 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Video of survivor of the event in Utøya. In Norwegian.

Her mother is holding onto her shoulder as if she's never going to let her go again; I'd be feeling the same, I know. This is so heartbreaking.
posted by jokeefe at 1:17 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


I just want to come to a place where I know other people will understand how sad and awful I feel without having to put into words. My dot is to show my solidarity with those affected, and to communicate that I'm horribly sorry for the tragedy when I really have no words that are adequate enough to provide comfort. I'm a nobody in this story and I don't want to intrude on other people's grief.

Said better a dot, thanks. Same here.
posted by the noob at 1:26 AM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


Her mother is holding onto her shoulder as if she's never going to let her go again

Yes, I thought that too. The mother seemed to want to smilingly express her joy at having her daughter alive, well, was relieved and thankful. The daughter seemed to be in highly strung PTSD mode but very adult, mature, steady, holding it together bravely with the tears about to come though. Wish I could have understood the words, not just observing the non-verbal communication.

I feel dread that the death toll on Utøya may be worse yet. Heavy hearted.

And then there is the aftermath of what happened in Oslo too, not just the dead but all those horribly wounded from the debris etc.
posted by nickyskye at 1:34 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Is it unusual that the killer didn't commit suicide? My hazy impression is that the individuals responsible for this kind of atrocity usually kill themselves when it becomes clear that that the authorities are closing in on them.

Martin Bryant didn't attempt suicide, he pretended to be a victim.
posted by the noob at 1:38 AM on July 23, 2011


I weep when I read about these 80 murdered children...I simply cannot bear it. Fucking 80 children? The senseless horror and evil of it makes we weep. How could someone be so mercilessly evil? A river of tears on my face.

I spent a good part of my childhood in Norway, the people there are nothing short of wonderful. Helpless rage and tears are all I have. I am shaken, I'm trembling as I cling to a my belief that there is more good in this word than fucking evil.

That murderer is wrong.

100,000 good people who love life and respect each other are better than one person who commits an unspeakable act.

No news story has destroyed me emotionally or shaken me to the core in my whole life more than this one. I sat at my desk at work and sobbed, 10 hours later I'm sobbing again.

I know that should not be, other bombs have been bigger, more lives have been taken by other crimes. But this? I cannot compare it to anything, to murder 80 youth in order.

I owe it to those children to love respect and appreciate everyone around me as much as I can. How else can I can I make any meaning from this? The tears will not stop.
posted by thebestusernameever at 1:42 AM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


Poet_Lariat: "Does anyone know if there is a web site anywhere where people can make a note expressing their condolences? Something like that? It is a very small gesture , perhaps without enough meaning, but it is all that I can think of to offer."

There is one at the Norwegian State broadcaster (think Bergensbanen and Hurtigruten) here. The form is in Norwegian, but the fields to fill in are name (navn), email (epost), place (sted), subject (emne), and message (melding).

You can read the messages people have left here. Almost all Norwegians read English, so your messages will be appreciated.
posted by Harald74 at 2:50 AM on July 23, 2011 [9 favorites]


I was shocked and pained yesterday... but was completely unprepared for the magnitude of what I'm reading here now. Eighty children? Oh no no no.

It's early here, and hot. I'd planned on going back to bed. Instead I'm trying to make some sense of this thing, weeping, wishing I could do something, hoping the numbers don't climb too much higher (but fearing they will). This is a nightmare. The victims... the families... the parents.

Thank you, Blue, for giving me a place to mourn, for allowing those of us who process things with language a place to do so.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:00 AM on July 23, 2011


The 80 is hitting me in a way that 15 wasn't last night. I don't know what that says about me. The number is confirmed at 84 from the island so far, and 7 from town. Some of the deaths are drownings of kids trying to escape.

QFT. I fell asleep last night and woke up to that "80 DEAD!!" headline splashed across my screen -- as someone else said upthread, I thought it had to be a misprint. But no. Normally I never comment in threads this long; we're all just going around in circles -- but this feels stunning and evil and totally WTF on a level that I can't even articulate. He was on the island shooting for over an hour, they say.

This is a horror movie plot, this is something that doesn't happen in real life... the bombing, I mean, okay --- that's the world we live in, terror attacks happen both foreign and domestic, and those bastards like to blow up buildings. But teenagers shot down like dogs by the "officer" who came to tell them about what was happening in the city? Holy shit. I can only *imagine* the shitstorm if this had happened in the US - but it's bad enough that it happened anywhere, ever.
posted by polly_dactyl at 3:33 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


> I think I'm babbling about classification schemes as a vague pushback against the seeming randomness of the events today.

Thanks for that, it's an example of something Metafilter does do well in breaking news posts, fleshing out little details based on our little areas of expertise or obsession. You get more analysis here on those aspects than any tv station or most print sources.
posted by marxchivist at 3:37 AM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


Perhaps the most sickening aspect with this tragedy, is that the killer probably had the time of his life. For hours, he was living a real life computer game. Witnesses from Utøya have said that after he shot somebody, he raised his hand in the air and whopped. He had planned this for a long time, and the plan worked.

More than 600 000 people supports this Facebook event, "Light a candle for the killed and injured in Oslo and at Utøya". Many Norwegians changed their profile picture at Facebook in sympathy, to a picture of a candle, the Norwegian flag, the City Seal of Oslo (showing the martyr St. Hallvard) or some version of "heart Oslo".
posted by iviken at 3:37 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I studied two years in Norway, and Oslo is small enough that you will regularly run into people you know. In addition to the targeted nature of the 80 deaths I can't imagine the psychological damage wrecked to the people there. Stay strong, Norway.

.
posted by monocot at 3:39 AM on July 23, 2011


Like everyone else, waking up to see 84 people were killed on the island hits you like nothing else.

My girlfriend's mother has been called into work today (at the VG building) and asked to bring her passport. Scary to think how easily she could have been caught up in this. My girlfriend herself returned to Norway less than a week ago and was in the area of the blast on Thursday.

I'm from Northern Ireland, so I'm not mentally unprepared for acts of extreme violence, but I was not expecting to be arriving into the aftermath of a catastrophe like this when I get to Norway in a few weeks. The reverberations of the Omagh bombing are still being felt here 13 years later.

My thoughts are with everyone affected by this awful event.
posted by knapah at 4:09 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Skeptic: I suspect that neither of us are familiar with Norwegian law but I am not comfortable basing my definition of whether one is sane on the amount of punishment and vengeance one could exact from them.

I define anyone who commits mass murder as being outside the bounds of sanity and suspect most would agree with me.


Can you not respond by assuming the worst of your interlocutor? I think skeptic is saying, and I agree, that it's unfair to tar the mentally ill with a brush that makes them into a category of "people who do horrible things," and not "people who suffer from psychological or neurological disorder." I don't think Skeptic is saying that they want him to be found sane so they can extract vengeance against him, and it's unfair to say something like that.
posted by Snyder at 4:30 AM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


Just spoke to my girlfriend who says witnesses on Utøya claim to have seen a second gunman on the island.
posted by knapah at 4:32 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]



The shooter's internet comments make specific mention of Gro Harlem Brundtland - the former PM who was supposed to be speaking at Utoya yesterday.

2010-01-25 05:20:24
[...]
"You (another poster) claim that all Norwegians who do not follow lands-mother/lands-murderer* Gro Harlem Brundtland's definition, are racist:

"Everyone always holds a Norwegian passport is fully Norwegian" ... Which means that even Somalin (with a Norwegian passport) who chews qat all day, beats his wife and sends half his benefits to al-Shabaab should be viewed as a fully that.

If anyone in this country dares to look at the Somali as anything other than a full Norwegian they are alled racist and get a publi black mark. And you say that everyone who disagrees with their extreme kultural-marxist world view - the utopian, global citizen definition - is a racist?

In that case, I think you have labeled 95% of the population but that's not very important to you?

You are only committed to paralyzing all the debate in society, to silencing all those who are not of the same opinion as you, to exercising social control in line with the conservative Muslims in Grønland?
"

*It's a Norgegian play on words: "landsmo(r)deren"
posted by Wylla at 4:37 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the BBC were just reporting a possible second gunman based on witness reports from the island. They were talking about kids hearing gunshots from another direction, though, rather than seeing someone else shooting, which I suppose means a higher likelihood of just the one gunman but a lot of confusion.
posted by Catseye at 4:45 AM on July 23, 2011


He sounds like every Republican politician. "Marxist! You're trying to take away my first amendment rights! 95% of the population agree with me! Muslims are evil!"
posted by stavrogin at 4:54 AM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


Rupert Murdoch's Brit tabloid The Sun's front page
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:01 AM on July 23, 2011


I am a suspicion that things may, horribly, be going according to plan for him. It'll be maybe the biggest trial in Norwegian history - almost certainly the one with the most global media exposure. He thinks perhaps that that means he'll have a platform to broadcast his ideas... probably considers himself a hero, a living martyr even. Which is crazy, but then he is crazy.


Only if he pleads not guilty.
posted by the noob at 5:15 AM on July 23, 2011


Watching the PM give a press conference in front of the Sundsvallen hotel on the TV2 live feed - taking and answering questions in multiple languages...without an interpreter. Wow. Maybe this is normal in Europe? How many European leaders are this bilingual?
posted by mdonley at 5:20 AM on July 23, 2011


the BBC were just reporting a possible second gunman based on witness reports from the island. They were talking about kids hearing gunshots from another direction, though, rather than seeing someone else shooting, which I suppose means a higher likelihood of just the one gunman but a lot of confusion.

Remembering the reports coming out of Columbine during that tragic day, a large part of the eye witness reports turned out to be wrong. Everybody freaking out, everything happening in the blink of an eye, sounds bouncing and echoing around can really distort what it truly happening.
After following the news updates all day long yesterday and then coming back hear to see how many kids got murdered on the island, I had to wake my little girl up last night and give her an extra hug. This is all so fucked up and sad. I'm really sorry for the good people of Norway.
posted by NoMich at 5:27 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I really thought that sun front page was either going to be a spoof, or an early pre-production one they would have replaced before going to press, but no, if http://www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/uk/the-sun/newspaper.cfm?frontpage=5333 is to be believed then that's what they ran with (though that doesn't rule out them having changed it).
posted by titus-g at 5:28 AM on July 23, 2011


It's on the MSBC site, but that's Reuters, not MSNBC report (and note that it's "analysis" not "news".)

Featured on their homepage, too.
posted by gimonca at 5:32 AM on July 23, 2011


Maybe this is normal in Europe? How many European leaders are this bilingual?

Most educated Europeans, especially from northern/scandinavian countries, speak 2-5 languages quite fluently. It makes one feel very very dumb as an American
posted by crayz at 5:37 AM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


I am horrified that one person would choose to brutally massacre innocent kids and ruin so many lives.

pic of his farm.

If anyone in this country dares to look at the Somali as anything other than a full Norwegian they are alled racist

When I see the picture of this isolated farm with it's serene and idyllic vista, I can't comprehend how someone could express such violence. Did this man ever see a Somalian person let alone talk to one? Considering that someone who lives far from the cities is rarely impacted by so-called "kultural-marxist" forces, it makes me wonder if his isolation mixed with the kind media he consumed drove him to this obsession.
posted by sswiller at 6:14 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Sswillwer - the gunman seems to have lived in an affluent suburb of Oslo with his mom.
posted by Wylla at 6:33 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


When I see the picture of this isolated farm with it's serene and idyllic vista, I can't comprehend how someone could express such violence. Did this man ever see a Somalian person let alone talk to one? Considering that someone who lives far from the cities is rarely impacted by so-called "kultural-marxist" forces, it makes me wonder if his isolation mixed with the kind media he consumed drove him to this obsession.

Maybe it was his personality that drove him to isolate himself and to further define himself by his ethnicity, by his chauvinism, by his idyllic farm, and by his much-vaunted university degrees. For that last one, he took such careful, public note of how many (probably exaggerated) hours he put into achieving them; that last detail would be pathetically comic if it weren't for tragic circumstances.

The portrait emerges of a profoundly insecure man. He couldn't just "be." He apparently had no way of proving to himself that he was a worthwhile person in his society. He couldn't figure out a way to put his energies into something positive, so instead of doing something creative or productive, he set forth an evil plan to become the world's most famous Norwegian, at least for a little while.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:37 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


The small isle of utoya is about 500-600 meters from the closest shore, that's a lot if one isn't a regular swimmer, and the water was probably quite cold with danger of hypothermia.
posted by elpapacito at 6:43 AM on July 23, 2011


I cannot get over the numbers. 80 deaths of children is horrifying enough, but if Harald74's math is accurate (adjusted for population would be similar to 5400+ US deaths), that's like saying the impact is more than both Oklahoma City and 9/11 combined, the majority of which were teenagers.

................................................................................... (91?)
posted by zix at 6:44 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Another survivor's account from Utoya (machine translated), and in the original Norwegian.
posted by ocherdraco at 7:10 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


"When I see the picture of this isolated farm with it's serene and idyllic vista, I can't comprehend how someone could express such violence."

Note that his one tweet stated:
One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests
Bold added, because he changed it from Mill's original quote of 99 (also telling that he wrote it in English, possibly for a global audience). In the book "Why not kill them all? The logic and prevention of mass political murder", one of the major factors for the psychology of political killing is categorizing a group that is in the extremist's mind reproducible (they believe their enemy to be like a hydra), but also categorizing vast numbers of diverse people under one essence ("kultural-marxists" or "100 000 strong who have only interests"). Also note that this goes both ways, he is not only categorizing his imagined enemies, but also himself. In his mind, he is the one against the many. So, he's created an in-group, out-group dynamic (another factor in political killings).
posted by ollyollyoxenfree at 7:13 AM on July 23, 2011 [6 favorites]


Considering that someone who lives far from the cities is rarely impacted by so-called "kultural-marxist" forces, it makes me wonder if his isolation mixed with the kind media he consumed drove him to this obsession.

In April 2002, after the extreme right-wing National Front party stunned France by coming second in the French presidential race, reporters interviewed the inhabitants from a small village who had massively voted for the National Front (75 % IIRC). These people, who never saw immigrants and did not suffer from criminality (kids listening to the radio way too loud was the only local crime they could cite), were much more scared of crime and immigration, that they knew about only from TV, than dwellers of larger cities.

There's a Scandinavian guy on a forum I participate in who has been spouting for a decade the same kind of stuff than the killer did: multiculturalism and its proponents (a bunch of strawmen presented as hopelessly and dangerously naive) are the Big Bad, white people are the only true victims of racism, muslims (Somalis in his case) are to blame. The guy lives in a small quiet town with zero crime and zero immigration, and yet he's completely terrified about the White Christian Civilisation going to the dogs. He's a nice person BTW, just extremely lonely and love-shy.
posted by elgilito at 7:15 AM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


Another survivor's account from Utoya

That was a horrific read. That they had time in the middle to call family - I just can't imagine being on the receiving end of a call like that and not going instantly insane.
"I prayed, prayed, prayed. I hope that God saw me. I called Mom and said that it was not safe we ​​would meet again, but that I would do anything to clear me. I said several times that I loved her. I heard fear in her voice. She cried. It hurt. "
My heart is broken for everyone who received a call like that and didn't see their child alive again.
posted by donnagirl at 7:26 AM on July 23, 2011 [8 favorites]


I guess I am still clinging to a notion that there is some signal or action taken, which could have prevented this from happening or could prevent future lone madmen from unleashing their twisted fantasies but there isn't one. It is an aberration, and aberrations are natural. Humanity would not exist if there weren't monkeys who insisted on walking upright (for better or worse). As much as I would like to blame nationalism or racism or religion for what happened, the capacity for violence will always be there.
posted by sswiller at 7:28 AM on July 23, 2011


donnagirl, that reminds me so much of the calls of the 9/11 victims trapped before the towers fell. And yes, you would never really get over something like that.
posted by emjaybee at 7:32 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Dagbladet has interviewed a survivior (Google translation):
"He cheered and chanted "victory" while he shot people."

Aftenposten (Google translation) writes that the street in central Oslo, where the bomb went off yesterday. was scheduled to be closed for traffic this September, to increse the safety in the goverment buildings. The street could have been closed back in 2009, but some neighbours complained about the plans, the local politicians didn't think it was really necessary, and the process was delayed.

Article from 2008: "Terror fear closes street in Oslo."
posted by iviken at 7:34 AM on July 23, 2011


What's striking to me is that this horror will very likely have the opposite effect the killer wanted; it seems much more likely that Norwegians will draw together against nationalism and racism.
posted by emjaybee at 7:34 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I don't think the killer is insane. I think he is evil. Unspeakably evil, but coldly and rationally smart.

The bomb was a distraction. It worked. While it was causing chaos, Breivik went to the spiritual homeland of the Labour Party, killed its youth and done as good as destroyed it. He didn't need a bomb on the island. It would take tremendous will for teens to flock back there to talk politics. He's destroyed a sense of security in Norwegian civil life. He's instilled a mistrust - or at least destroyed the right to automatic trust - of policemen in Norway.
posted by MuffinMan at 7:39 AM on July 23, 2011 [9 favorites]


I'm sorry I checked the news this morning.

.
posted by tommasz at 7:41 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


There is a parallel here in that Martin Bryant's destination was the Isle of the Dead, but arrived too late in the day and missed the last ferry.
posted by the noob at 7:42 AM on July 23, 2011


The bomb was a distraction. It worked. While it was causing chaos, Breivik went to the spiritual homeland of the Labour Party, killed its youth and done as good as destroyed it. He didn't need a bomb on the island. It would take tremendous will for teens to flock back there to talk politics. He's destroyed a sense of security in Norwegian civil life. He's instilled a mistrust - or at least destroyed the right to automatic trust - of policemen in Norway.

You should really check that WaPo Twitter feed mentioned earlier; that's not what's happening. Tragedy draws people together against the threat. I don't know from Norwegian politics, but I would be surprised if the Labour Party didn't see a surge of support. Security measures will be changed, of course, especially those involving police.
posted by emjaybee at 7:48 AM on July 23, 2011


Video of a New Orleans style memorial parade earlier today at the Molde Jazz Festival in Norway. I wept while watching it. It's always odd what it is that finally pushes you over the edge, emotionally.
posted by Kattullus at 7:49 AM on July 23, 2011 [17 favorites]


Oh Kattullus - *weeps*
posted by madamjujujive at 7:58 AM on July 23, 2011


I don't know from Norwegian politics, but I would be surprised if the Labour Party didn't see a surge of support.

I agree, and that's what happened in Sweden after the assassination of Olof Palme in 1986. The upcoming local elections in Norway will be held on September 12 2011. That's the day after September 11, 2011...
posted by iviken at 8:01 AM on July 23, 2011


An amazing reflection from Norwegian cartoonist Øystein Runde:
"My bodily reaction was a sudden wish to have him torn apart by horses. But that is my feelings. Fear. Rage. Disgust. This rage for vengeance is not what makes us human. It is the victory of abstract thought, of faith, that makes us human. The faith that any human can be something different tomorrow than they are today..."
posted by donnagirl at 8:17 AM on July 23, 2011 [40 favorites]


no words.

.
posted by everichon at 8:32 AM on July 23, 2011


I checked the news this morning and that the death toll on the island had reached 85. I was just at a complete loss for words. I would like to think the killer was insane, it's hard to wrap my mind around the idea that a sane person would do this.
posted by MikeMc at 8:37 AM on July 23, 2011


Masons have been accused of financial and political corruption, sometimes with good reason. But cold-blooded mass ritual murder? Not at all, ever.

I don't know how you define "ritual," but:

Documents relating to the school massacre, released after a 100-year secrecy rule was lifted, show how police investigated claims of a Masonic conspiracy.

Among the 3,000 letters and reports uncovered is correspondence between a member of public and Lord Cullen's office regarding suggestions that the gunman, Thomas Hamilton, and senior police, who were aware of concerns over summer camps and clubs he ran, were Masons.

Again, I don't have a dog in this hunt, my point is just that you keep making these sweeping generalizations that amount to "Masons are never connected to murder or acts of terror, and if you believe otherwise you are a raving conspiracy theorist!" But that's simply not the case. That's like saying "There's no pattern of snow in Florida, so it never snows in Florida, and to think otherwise is lunatic conspiracy theory!" The killer in Oslo certainly seems to have been a Mason, which is a fact that doesn't accompany a conspiracy (so long as no possible accomplices are accused).
posted by thescientificmethhead at 8:38 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Craig Murray: Norwegian Killer Linked to Tea Party and EDL
posted by adamvasco at 8:41 AM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


Video of a New Orleans style memorial parade earlier today at the Molde Jazz Festival in Norway

It's eerie, it's like the instrument are in a discourse, a crying not unlike that of the praefiche in southern italy and ancient greece tradition, like screams.
posted by elpapacito at 8:46 AM on July 23, 2011


How is Norway's mental health care system? The survivors are surely going to have PTSD after this. I can't imagine seeing your friends shot in front of you, especially as a teenager. How on earth do you deal with that?
posted by desjardins at 8:48 AM on July 23, 2011


The emergency response units are trained in post-trauma services, and so are various other local state health and welfare services and priests and many others. The survivors will get help.
posted by Kattullus at 8:54 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


If you read through the list of his comments about his political views on Norwegian website document.no (google translated) you can pick up horrifyingly familiar rhetoric, like, talk of the "Islamization of Europe" and "Eurabia" and so on, and of how most of Norway is dominated by "cultural Marxists", and stuff like "Norwegian men have been feminized and [taught?] excessive tolerance".

There is no incitement to violence as such, but clear signs of someone obsessed by these themes. Very chilling to think someone who ony a couple of years ago was talking of "Islam as an ideology of hate" and list the supposed millions of victims caused by "ideologies of hate" like Islam Nazism and Marxism (his words) could go and then kill dozens of kids just because he thought they were the next generation of "feminized cultural Marxists" leading to the ruin of Norway.
posted by bitteschoen at 8:59 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


You should really check that WaPo Twitter feed mentioned earlier; that's not what's happening

To be clear: the "it" I'm referring to that he has destroyed is the Labour Party's spiritual homeland, not the party itself. Of course they are going to get a surge of support.

But to someone who wants to cause symbolic damage to the party, killing scores of its youth at its island retreat is a way of destroying something beautiful. Who could go there now and think about the future without being reminded of the past? Possible to do, but hard.
posted by MuffinMan at 9:01 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Americans seem to want to reclaim the spot of the WTC.

The place will be different, but perhaps a place with deeper meaning and emotional attachment.

I suspect the people of Norway are up to that challenge.
posted by mazola at 9:05 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I find it hard to believe this guy merely feared the unknown or hated Muslims. Liberals and leftists in Norway are hardly unknown. I cant imagine you could walk across town without bumping into one. He killed a class of people he knew and was familiar with, to achieve political victory.

This is a gross day to support any right-wing cause, especially since many right-wingers thought this was an Islamic attack (I was on the fence, recalling that 99.6% of European terrorism is non-Muslim). But the threat in the future is bipartisan. Evil or sick people around the world have just been alerted to a new way to silence their political opposition.

I hope this kind of attack will never be repeated, but I would be worried if I had a kid attending any sort of gathering for future leaders. I don't want to see any more children murdered simply for engaging in political dialogue.
posted by shii at 9:08 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


According to Reuters the death toll is now up to 98. Sad day.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 9:18 AM on July 23, 2011


98 at the worst. I think the numbers are 94 confirmed dead, 4 missing.
posted by Catfry at 9:20 AM on July 23, 2011


The killer, dressed as a policeman, "would tell people to come over: 'It's OK, you're safe, we're coming to help you.' And then I saw about 20 people come toward him and he shot them at close range," he said.

I have no words.
posted by futz at 9:20 AM on July 23, 2011


It seems to have worked amazingly well as a strategy to dress as a cop, and even more fucked up is that terrorists in the future are probably going to copycat the idea.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:28 AM on July 23, 2011


From an article in The Sydney Morning Herald: The head of the populist right-wing Progress Party (FrP), Siv Jensen, said on Saturday she was sorry to learn that the suspect had been a party member between 1999 and 2006 and for several years a leader in its youth movement.

So, he was in a political youth group himself.
posted by taz at 9:28 AM on July 23, 2011


Norwegian police have confirmed the explosion in Oslo was a car bomb. There are also undetonated explosives around government buildings in Oslo.

The police also admitted that they arrived at the scene of the massacre on Utøya island 45 minutes after shooting began there. There are still four or five missing people.
posted by futz at 9:28 AM on July 23, 2011


Seeing some of these kids interviewed, I'm noticing a lot of immigrant kids, and I wonder if that aspect played into his calculations.

Anyhow, to be honest, I'm finding discussing this monster in the same thread as his innocent victims, a disservice to their memory and also just repulsive.
posted by Skygazer at 9:28 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


This morning, I told my husband that the reports were that there were 80 dead on the island. He said no, you must mean 8 - it was at 7 yesterday. When I said no, EIGHTY, he was stunned.

My heart breaks for everyone, but most particularly for the parents of those murdered children.

.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 9:30 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


It seems to have worked amazingly well as a strategy to dress as a cop, and even more fucked up is that terrorists in the future are probably going to copycat the idea.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:28 PM on July 23 [+] [!]


Having been in Norway some time back, I can tell you that the Norwegian police are incredibly tolerant and polite and helpful and ridiculously nice, and will bemusedly put up with things that most cops in the U.S. would never, ever tolerate, and probably tase you for.

They're truly public servants in every meaning of that, there to protect and serve.

And what this fucker has done here is so damaging to that.
posted by Skygazer at 9:33 AM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


We think of 80 children but of course the monster murdered much more than that. He killed all the children those 80 will now never have and their grandchildren and endless beyond that. Thousands now will never be born... all that potential. Those 80 were on that island to talk about Progressive politics. They were Labor Party. They wanted to make the world a better place for their children who will now never be ...

I'm not Norwegian and I don't pretend to understand their politics or their culture but they have always struck me as an admirable society. I hope next year that 800 people go tot hat island and talk about all the things that the 80 never got a chance to say. Perhaps that would be the best memorial to the lives they never had a chance to really live.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 9:38 AM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


there was earlier a report this guy could be the anonymous islamophobe blogger FJordman. it doesnt look like he is but people over at Little Green Footballs have found this guy's comments that suggest he was a huge fan of Pamela "Ground Zero Mosque" Geller and the whole crew at JihadWatch and Gates of Vienna.

Geller is a vile xenophobe and islamophobe whose "Ground Zero Mosque" rhetoric incited violence against mosques around the country. she is the worse kind of jewish bigot --anti-semitism squared :P
posted by liza at 9:40 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


It's always odd what it is that finally pushes you over the edge, emotionally
Yes it is isn't it.
Basically: Coupled with healthy realism and a solid police force the faith in humanity is a valuable thing in itself. It says: Our justice system believes blindly in justice. We will not kill, because killing is wrong.

I know I sound awfully politically correct, as i am relentlessly soft, multi-cultural and left-wing.

But after today, as the worst human being in Europe is hard, mono-cultural and right-wing, it will be very, very, very hard to tease anyone for being too "politically correct"
From the Øystein Runde post donnagirl linked to above.

I speak to a hell of a lot of people from around the world in my job (was speaking to some people in Oslo handling the aftermath last night) and although us Brits like to portray the French as super sophisticated and the Dutch as super tolerant it is the Scandinavians who are the archetypal "Europeans". They do have a tendency to be, shall we say, honest about their racial insensitivity (I remember having to explain to someone that the n-word isn't usually used in a professional context) but speaking to them puts one in mind of when you were a child and speaking to grown-ups. So I am certain that Norway will be fine after this, and in fact will probably use this to have a proper discussion about those racial insensitivities.

But Norway isn't the only actor in this. There are people who profit from perpetuating the fear which drives the kind of hatred that leaves scores of children dead or a mosque bombed or a tube train burned. There are people who smiled when those towers came down because they just had a great big hammer added to their tool set. I doubt they'll smile as much today because not even ghouls like reading about dead kids, people are harder to rouse to root out the killer inside the walls and there's not much profit in attacking yourselves.

But it is profit which drives this wave of fear and hatred which pushes us to these places and I kind of think, even if we all kind of share in that profit, it's not fucking worth it any more.

Hopefully the grown-ups will save us. Øystein Runde kind of makes me hope a little harder.
posted by fullerine at 9:45 AM on July 23, 2011 [9 favorites]


And what of all those parents who sent their children to a summer camp only to be told their child would not be coming home ever again?
posted by tommasz at 9:45 AM on July 23, 2011


From one of the survivors of the island massacre:

"Magnus is determined to return to Utøya.

- We must continue as before. We can not give him the victory and stop coming on Utøya. Then we have lost, says Magnus.

- I'll go fishing, talk to friends and socialize. We must try to make the best of the situation, and I hope we will know why this happened, he said.
"

The kids are alright...I think they'll be alright.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 9:54 AM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


"Mitt lille land": Norwegian TV2 News released this promo last month.

Other versions of the same song here, here and here.
Lyrics in English:

My little country
A little place, a handful of peace
thrown out among mountain plateaus and fjords
My little country
Where high mountains are planted
among houses, people and words
Where silence and dreams grow
Like an echo in barren earth
posted by iviken at 9:55 AM on July 23, 2011


In Norway, parents send their 13-year-old kids to political summer camp?
posted by JackFlash at 9:58 AM on July 23, 2011


From Channel 4
In posts on a Norwegian website, Breivik shows he has an interest and deep, current knowledge of UK far-right politics. In one posting he called for the establishment of a "Norwegian EDL" and he claims to have had contact with it and another far-right organisation, Stop the Islamification of Europe.
posted by adamvasco at 9:58 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


I just want to say that the post by Øystein Runde referenced above by donnagirl and fullerine is an amazing piece of writing. You should read it.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:00 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


, recalling that 99.6% of European terrorism is non-Muslim).
but those statistics aren't reliable as framing either. the vast majority of the incidents in those stats are from very well-known, long-running separatist movements with violent militant wings in specific countries.
Except maybe for the British embassy, Norway is not going to be attacked by the Real IRA
As far as I can tell, Norway does not have an active violent separatist movement.
Given the the real well-known threats (taking out the media hype etc.) made by Islamist groups against Norway and many other European countries in recent years, the sudden emergence of an incredibly violent separatist terror group in Norway that noone much knew about before seems rather unlikely. (although there is the case of the non-Norwegian, Islamist separatist terror plot)

Additionally, to talk about Islamist terror groups should not be taken as talking about Muslims
posted by Bwithh at 10:05 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


I have family and friends in Norway. Facebook let me know everyone is ok far faster than the family grapevine could. It's a mix of relief and heartbreak, and I can't quite wrap my mind around the grief and loss.


.
posted by ambrosia at 10:06 AM on July 23, 2011


an incredibly violent separatist terror group in Norway that noone much knew about before seems rather unlikely

Sorry I messed up this sentence, I meant to write "does not seem to be as likely" which is a different meaning
posted by Bwithh at 10:06 AM on July 23, 2011


The more I hear about this event, the more I am sickened by xenophobic, anti-specific-religion, locals-uber-alles, nation-uber-alles, homosexual-as-a-menace arguments and similar "this-is-the-only-or-primary-source-of-all-problems" arguments, disguised with spinned and counterspinned rethoric so as to look as "mostly harmless" political opinion.

On preview:

Mail just received:Somebody has saved a partial copy of his facebook page
posted by elpapacito at 10:08 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Norway will own this guy and treat him as one of their own.

There will be a tremendous amount of soul-searching as a result of this.
posted by jamjam at 10:10 AM on July 23, 2011


JackFlash:In Norway, parents send their 13-year-old kids to political summer camp?

Jack, I imagine that in real grown-up countries where politics is seen as the necessary glue that binds a democracy together, rather then the circus side-show that it is in the U.S. , that's what parents do.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:10 AM on July 23, 2011 [13 favorites]


I'm finding it hard to deal with my facebook news feed filling with people talking about Amy Winehouse's death, and seeing it plastered over the news channels as well is a bit bizarre.
posted by knapah at 10:18 AM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


JackFlash, I would also imagine that it's not some Soviet style indoctrination, but an optional thing that kids interested in government might want to go to.
posted by emjaybee at 10:18 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


American parties do outreach to teens as well. Why wait until your are old enough to vote to get involved? I cared about politics when I was 13 and would have enjoyed some more outreach, though I wouldn't have had such a fun Libertarian phase if the Democrats scooped me up.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:19 AM on July 23, 2011


While parents might send their 13 year olds to a political summer camp somewhere, these particular camp-goers range in age from 15-30.
posted by absalom at 10:20 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


this lends some support to my previous suggestion:

from the Guardian liveblog:

5.22pm: The suspect Anders Behring Breivikis has admitted to some things, according to the police.

Breivikis surrendered immediately after the police arrived on the scene of the shootings.

posted by Bwithh at 10:21 AM on July 23, 2011


Mixed feelings about posting this: a link to quite a few of the Breivik's post on (what seems to be ) a right wing Norwegian anti-immigration website (google translated). He mentions that he is wealthy and he equates Marxism to the Nazis. Everyone , including me, looks for a reason why in this so that is why I looked up the site but I caution you (and myself) that in the end there is no reason only the unmitigated soulless hate of a failed human being.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:22 AM on July 23, 2011


"Jack, I imagine that in real grown-up countries"

That's a bit of cheap shot don't you think? In the U.S. camp is where you send your kid for hiking, swimming fishing etc...not political education. There is no real tradition of those sorts of camps here. At least not on any noticeable scale.
posted by MikeMc at 10:24 AM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the eighty-four dead on the Island. I've never liked even knives, much less guns, but I'll feel even more uncomfortable around the machine gun toting gendarme now.

Interesting link, adamvasco and liza. I would not be surprised if his Tea party 'inspiration' appears far deeper by the time the investigators finish.

There are many who've expected the Tea party would inspire political violence, but naively imagined that violence would remain confined to the U.S.

Your link intentionally conflates intentionally lethal acts of terrorism with intentionally non-lethal acts of terrorism, shil. An eco-terrorist may set an SUVs on fire every month for a year while making damn sure they never hurt anyone. See : Islamists caused overwhelming majority of terrorist deaths in Europe during last decade (that conclusion tragically outdated now)
posted by jeffburdges at 10:30 AM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


In Norway, parents send their 13-year-old kids to political summer camp?

In the US, my parents sent me to a religious summer camp at 13. I'm not sure a political camp's any weirder.
posted by EarBucket at 10:30 AM on July 23, 2011 [7 favorites]


That's kind of my point Mike :)
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:31 AM on July 23, 2011


That's a bit of cheap shot don't you think? In the U.S. camp is where you send your kid for hiking, swimming fishing etc...not political education.

Unless you count church camp. And I do. :(
posted by emjaybee at 10:33 AM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


Consider it less of a camp and more of a political youth wing summit that incidentally (because Norwegians love the outdoors and spend as much time there as they can in the short summers) involves camping on an island.

The Young Republicans have summer summits. And the Young Democrats are meeting in Louisville Kentucky this summer.

So. It's not so unusual.
posted by RedEmma at 10:33 AM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


MikeMc, there are also Bible camps for kids in the US. (I was sent to several.) On preview, yep, EarBucket confirms. I started being sent when I was 8.

As for the attacks – I'm still shocked by the fact kids were targeted.

My boyfriend is Norwegian and has 3 adorable children from his previous marriage. (They're all safe, as are people he knows.) Words fail me.

.
posted by fraula at 10:33 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Thank you for the link to Øystein Runde's blog, donnagirl. That is powerful writing.

Our justice system believes blindly in justice. We will not kill, because killing is wrong.

I know I sound awfully politically correct, as i am relentlessly soft, multi-cultural and left-wing.

But after today, as the worst human being in Europe is hard, mono-cultural and right-wing, it will be very, very, very hard to tease anyone for being too "politically correct".


It is sobering to read this man going through this intense introspection of his own feelings as well as examining the future of this tragedy for Norway.
posted by Surfurrus at 10:36 AM on July 23, 2011


Tea Party Group Offers Summer Camp.
-
The Young Democrats of America has announced the second High School Leadership Academy for July 17-20, 2011 in Washington, D.C. It is a four-day summer camp focusing on developing the next generation of Democratic Party leaders.

posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:36 AM on July 23, 2011


In Norway, parents send their 13-year-old kids to political summer camp?

I think the context was something less like a "camp" and more like a "convention". The DNC Youth Council holds two annual gatherings, the winter meeting and summer meeting. They're in hotels, as far as I can tell, not camps. Otherwise, they involve similar types of scheduled events such as meeting party leaders and elected officials.

(On preview: What RedEmma said.)
posted by dhartung at 10:36 AM on July 23, 2011


I'm sure these kids weren't "sent" anywhere--they went there because they wanted to go, because they'd joined the youth wing of a political party they believed in.
posted by simen at 10:36 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


I keep calling this guy insane but after reading his postings on that site I linked to he comes off as highly articulate and his arguments are logically arranged, even if racist . Someone chided me for calling him insane rather than an evil monster. Maybe they were right . I don't know . Maybe evil is a form of insanity itself. It's just horrible. It belies explanation and it makes me cry.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:43 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


There is a verdict of "guilty but mentally ill" in the U.S., Poet_Lariat, which might also exist in Norway. Insanity need not imply incompetency.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:53 AM on July 23, 2011


"That's kind of my point Mike :)"

I'm well aware of political youth rallies and bible camps in the U.S. but I take issue with the "real" and "grown-up" parts of the comment. I assure you this place is quite real and I don't think a national network of Tea Party Patriot sponsored youth camps would really benefit our political system.
posted by MikeMc at 10:54 AM on July 23, 2011


Interesting Salon piece on how the bombing was originally portrayed as "terrorism" by much of the media until it was discovered the perpetrator was non-Muslim, at which point it became "extremism."

More on the "Muslims did it" angle.
posted by swift at 11:01 AM on July 23, 2011 [11 favorites]


MikeMc - think of this less like a summer camp and more like the summer retreat for youth leaders in a particular political party, as people have pointed out above.

One difference between the US and Europe is that in many countries in Europe, the political parties have active youth wings - people often join as teenagers if they support the party, and use it as a base for activism. The kids at the camp were local youth volunteers and leaders, ranging from 15 to 30. The 'camp' was really a short retreat, with speakers, debates, and a chance to interact with party leaders. (That explains both why the PM was a former attendee himself and why he was due to speak there tomorrow).
posted by Wylla at 11:02 AM on July 23, 2011


As a society—the whole of Europe, not Norway alone—we need to look at the hate and anger we have bred within and toward ourselves. We cannot point the finger at Islamists and say "they wish to destroy everything we stand for" when we have taught a man to do just that. The media would have had an easy story were this crime to come from the hands and minds of Muslims, but now they look about in bewilderment as though nothing makes sense. "Mad" he must be, because if he were a logical outcome of our society, then we would rightly seek the cause. It is us who are feigning madness if we choose not to understand.
posted by Jehan at 11:02 AM on July 23, 2011 [6 favorites]


Islamophobia run riot.
posted by adamvasco at 11:11 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Video of Utoya aftermath with survivor talking (in English) about his experience
posted by desjardins at 11:14 AM on July 23, 2011


Someone chided me for calling him insane rather than an evil monster. Maybe they were right . I don't know . Maybe evil is a form of insanity itself. It's just horrible. It belies explanation and it makes me cry

I simpathize with your feelings, it's an horrible event. Additionally, I am not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist, but I can tell you about a story that has given matter for tought on the difference between "raging mad" and "lucid mad". Please bear in mind these definition are tentative, they are not meant to be taken as if there they were "the truth" or an widely accepted medical definition; in other words, it's just a true story ;)

The story: I knew a guy who apparently was rather sociable, laughing and smiling, an overall "good dude/bloke". As we were casual aquaintances, I never really got to see him frequently to notice some behaviors that, to attentive and properly trained eyes, may have been seen as a "sign" something was "deeply wrong" with him. More specifically, at a certain point of his life I spotted him rocking on his chair as if something was troubling him. He dismissed my questions with a "I am just nervous" reply. Some would have characterized that as a "bad day", but I was told that actually that behavior was frequently repeated in many instances and went on and on, at times for an hour or so. That fact alone didn't tell -me- much, but I was told it was a possible "sign" of psychological troubles.

After a few months of not seeing him, I casually asked a common acquaintances about him, as he said " don't you know? he went insane!". During some kind of sport event, he decided he had enough with a guy faulting him somehow and has almost killed him on the spot: consider that the offender had the physique of a strong tall athlete, was trained in kickboxing and some other martial art. Apparently 3-4 people were needed to keep him from killing the unfortunate victim, who suffered serious injuries and was hospitalized for a long while.

The same acquaintance later told me that he was sent to some kind of asylum, that he escaped, was later recovered and was prescribed some kind of drug in order to "stabilize" his "brain chemical unbalance"; he later returned to a "normal" (?) life, hasn't shown that violent rages anymore..actually he married an year or so after the incident. It's not clear wheter the wife had any knowledge of his past story.

To me, he is the defition of "mad", unbalanced at a physical-brain level.

I also happen to know people who strongly hold opinions on some subject, for instance immigration; one of them is an "absolutely normal" person, and I had many evidence of
"quite normal" behaviors from him, nothing that would generally alarm the layperson. Yet, during a discussion, his very strong immigration stance morphed into something different: he basically very strongly believed that immigrants were an "inferior race" - further questioning revealed that he believed in "genetical differences" as a scientific proof of -inferiority- or superiority. It's not clear where he picked that idea. Consider also that, in one instance, I saw him running to rescue a person that was involved in a car accident - a complete strange with who he immediately emphatized..something that wouldn't cast a "bad" shadow on his character. Yet the two aspects (believing in genetic inferiority, helping a complete stranger) peacefully went along togheter in his mind.

He is "mad" ? He surely don't look like when compared with the other violent guy; nonetheless, his deeply held belief was impervious to any kind of counterargument. Probably, that deeply held belief also informs his perception of "reality" and I wouldn't be surprised to find him treating immigrants with contempt; I would "flag" him as a prime suspect of violence against immigrants, if involved in an accident involving immigrants. Yet, the mere fact that he helds that belief may make him more likely to commit acts against some person, but that's only a part of his -perception- and doesn't necessarily make him "more likely" to harm/not harm anybody.
posted by elpapacito at 11:21 AM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


In Norway, parents send their 13-year-old kids to political summer camp?

The kids at the camp were local youth volunteers and leaders, ranging from 15 to 30.

Only a part of the time at the Utøya summer meeting is used to policical discussions. It's more a social event: music, football, flirting, dating... and that actually makes the camp more important, because many young people get to meet future politicians and activists that they will be connected to (and sometimes married to) for years to come.

The other main political parties in Norway have similar summer meetings.
posted by iviken at 11:26 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


"MikeMc - think of this less like a summer camp and more like the summer retreat for youth leaders in a particular political party, as people have pointed out above. "

I think we, unfortunately, got derailed by the term "camp". Obviously we have no real tradition of substantial "youth wings" in our political parties but I think the term "retreat" perhaps frames it in a way that we would better understand.
posted by MikeMc at 11:27 AM on July 23, 2011


.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:35 AM on July 23, 2011


Jack Flash asked "In Norway, parents send their 13-year-old kids to political summer camp?"

In Norway many 13 year olds care about their democracy, their social system and so decide by themselves to involve themselves in politics.

I'm not Norwegian, but I visit regularly for work and my wife's sister and kids live in Olso and I'm often impressed by the maturity of people there. My wife's neice aged 14 was highly knowledgeable about the women's movement in various European nations, for example.
posted by Pericles at 11:36 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Comming to this thread later, after I knew a lot about who the shooter was was pretty strange. The idea of this being an AQ or other militant attack did seem pretty remote, because we've actually done such a good job tracking and monitoring these people. If they had been planning something they would have gotten caught.

But it was really interesting to see how some posters were sure it was tack by Islamic militants, like someone thought it might have been done by Lashkar-e-Taiba, because apparently they have a patent on "shooting people with guns" as a terrorist tactic, and it could mean the U.S. going to war with Pakistan or something.

It's also interesting how the shooter himself seems to have been holding these virulent anti-Muslim sentiments himself.
posted by delmoi at 11:39 AM on July 23, 2011


delmoi - there's a difference between thinking that Islamist terrorism is the most likely explanation - which it was very sensible to do yesterday afternoon, as there have been recent issues in Norway involving such extremists, and Norway has little organised extreme-right domestic terrorism - and 'virulent anti-Muslim sentiments'.
posted by Wylla at 11:45 AM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Snyder I think skeptic is saying, and I agree, that it's unfair to tar the mentally ill with a brush that makes them into a category of "people who do horrible things," and not "people who suffer from psychological or neurological disorder."

Yes, that's part of what I meant, not least because I've known mentally ill people, sometimes severely so, and I'm pretty sure that they would be no less horrified that a sane person by these acts.

But also because people use the "insane" tag for truly evil acts as a form of denial. It helps deny what Hannah Arendt called "the banality of evil", that is, that the potential for such evil lies in a dark recess of the human soul and is possibly present in most of us. Most mass murders in history were carried by perfectly normal, sane people. Most of those in SS Einsatzgruppen or in NKVD execution squads, most Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution, most Khmer Rouge, most Hutu interhamwe militias or Serb soldiers in Srebrenica weren't insane, they were sane and could understand perfectly well what they were doing. Such evil isn't a mental illness, it's a moral one, and unless we are vigilant, we could all be afflicted.
posted by Skeptic at 11:50 AM on July 23, 2011 [21 favorites]


Poet_Lariat: I keep calling this guy insane but after reading his postings on that site I linked to he comes off as highly articulate and his arguments are logically arranged, even if racist . Someone chided me for calling him insane rather than an evil monster. Maybe they were right . I don't know . Maybe evil is a form of insanity itself.

I think insane (emotionally as opposed to mentally) and evil are both correct.

Malignant narcissists who have been mass murderers are numerous in history on all continents. They run the gamut from cult leaders like Jim Jones, heads of Mafia, to hugely powerful political leaders, like Stalin or Pol Pot. Mentally, they are typically incredibly smart, strategically adroit, articulate, charismatic. They have what is called pathological charm, can be very alluring or magnetic personalities. They know right from wrong, which makes them legally eligible for trial or legal accountability and legally called sane.

Because malignant narcissists know right from wrong but do wrong with grave repercussions to those they target, they are often called evil by those who have seen beyond their charismatic mask.

This particular monster seems to be a Talented Mr. Ripley kind of a guy, cool, calculating, strategic over the long term, cunning, devious, hateful, vindictive in the extreme, a manipulator of his image. Perhaps he was envious of the Prime Minister's memories of Utoya as a childhood paradise of sorts and decided to try and off the next generation of Norwegian Socialist thinkers, nip them in the bud so to speak, with mass homicide? No, not mad, imo, definitely evil.

All human beings are capable of hurting others, being jerks or bitches. Regular, non-pathological people can be racist, bigoted, opinionated, mean-spirited, verbally abusive. The abuse of the malignant narcissist is different. They need to target scapegoats on a long term basis and then act out their rage/shame/blame on the scapegoats. On the more intense end of the pathological narcissist spectrum this acting out moves up in volume, not their just publicly smearing a person's character, not just blackmailing, not just undermining a person's career, not just rageaholic attacks but up to planning homicide, then committing homicide, then committing more than one, then mass murder, then conscripting others into participating even greater murder, using religion, greed or politics as a 'reason'.

Mentally sane, emotionally insane, malignant narcissists are dissociated personalities, emotionally disintegrated and unable to connect empathically with others. They usually have an idealize-devalue cycle, compulsively pedestalizing some and scapegoating others with malice and sadism. Unable to contain their own negative feelings or sense of being flawed, they project those flaws mercilessly onto others, who they then try to destroy.

This Norwegian mass murderer seems, imo, to have all the hallmarks of a malignant narcissist. It will be interesting to hear what the forensic psychologist team has to say when this case goes to trial.
posted by nickyskye at 11:50 AM on July 23, 2011 [9 favorites]


Interesting Salon piece on how the bombing was originally portrayed as "terrorism" by much of the media until it was discovered the perpetrator was non-Muslim, at which point it became "extremism."

I too am troubled by that rhetoric (particularly the Sun's whole "Norway's 9/11" and the Daily Mail article which, even though it acknowledged that the perpetrator was known to be, at that point, a right-wing Norwegian national, discussed AQ at length), but isn't it possible that part of the shift is that of recognizing that this wasn't an attack by a group but rather an individual?
posted by jokeefe at 12:01 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


We don't really know that either yet though, jokeefe.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:08 PM on July 23, 2011


There is a deeper reason people are so ready to jump to claim "Muslim terrorism!", other than plain old bigotry. It is a quick and ready mechanism to identify a threat - people who look different, and act in groups. But what do you do, and how do you defend against someone who looks "just like you", and who acts alone? What is the Norwegian state - ANY state going to do to prevent future attacks such as this? If it were a foreign looking person, hey, the police and security apparatus could always engage in some good old racial profiling - as does the public, when they then can make spurious complaints about the "oddly" dressed and praying Muslims on the airplane - it gives people a sense (false) of security, that "something is being done". But what do you do, as a Norwegian, when the perpetrator is a fair-haired, blue-eyed Norwegian speaking without an accent, maybe even dressed as the very police or security people who are supposed to protect you? It's reassuring when it's a group that attacks - like AQ, because then the security apparatus can investigate and infiltrate and track and monitor such groups. But what do you do, when it's your neighbor, who works alone, with no one having an inkling of his plans?

Oh, the world is so much simpler and easier dealt with, when the opponent is a group of people with an alien ideology whose looks clearly set them apart and who are easy to identify. Then we can all pile all our hate on them, we can take measures, "shoot them all and let God sort them out". If discrimination happens, well, too bad, that's the price we pay for security and anyway it's their own fault, why don't they stop being Muslims, or Other, and why don't they denounce their brethren, and why don't they convert and assimilate and best of all why don't they voluntarily hang themselves. Then we're rid of the Other and the threat.

But what if it's someone who is one of US? Cognitive dissonance - deny, deny, deny. Maybe he was recruited by the Other. And anyhow was inspired by the Other (see reports by mainstream media, linked here in the blue, telling us how the right-wing "extremists" were "inspired by the AQ terrorists"). In the end, he's no longer one of us, but somehow connected, yes, you guessed it, to those terrible Others, and all is well again in our black and white world.
posted by VikingSword at 12:12 PM on July 23, 2011 [8 favorites]


nickyskye, I think that in a lot of ways being a malignant narcissist is easier than it ever was before. The days of hiding under white robes and masks are gone, replaced by such mainstream organizations as the Tea Party. Virulent hatred is no longer something tacitly acknowledged but seldom spoken of, it's out front on radio, TV and the Internet. You don't have to meet in secret with others who share your views.

Should current trends continue, we may well see a future when such tragedies are commonplace. And then no one, no matter who or where they are, will be safe.
posted by tommasz at 12:20 PM on July 23, 2011


I too am troubled by that rhetoric (particularly the Sun's whole "Norway's 9/11"...

What made that headline even worse was that in smaller print, just above the 9/11 reference was "Al Qaeda Massacre."
posted by NoMich at 12:29 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Afaik, people expected Islamists due to the bombs, not the shooter, delmoi. All the shooters I'm aware of were primarily deranged with occasional shades of right-wing. In fact, I'd initially imagined this shooter might be some crazy who went off after hearing about the bombs on television, vaguely like the anthrax attacks in the U.S.

I'd initially assume almost any terrorist attack in the U.S., except airplane hijackings, was perpetuated by right-wingers. In Europe, the bomb attacks have historically been either separatists or Islamists. Norway doesn't have separatists, ergo I guessed Islamists.

I seriously reevaluated up the attackers chances for being right-wing only once I considered how the Tea party rhetoric must impact Europe's right-wingers. And the police revealing the shooter also set off the bombs might've prompted that.

There isn't really an issue of 'the other' here, just simple history, which now grows more complex. And I agree completely with Greenwald that this attack should not be 'rebranded' as extremism merely because the culprit talks like your average Republican politician.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:30 PM on July 23, 2011


In addition to the U.S. youth political retreats, theres also Boys State and Girl's State, Boys Nation and Girls Nation.

"Famous alumni/ae of the Boys and Girls State programs include Neil Armstrong, Tom Brokaw, James Campbell, Bill Clinton, Mike Huckabee, Michelle D. Johnson, Russell Jones, Michael Jordan, Rush Limbaugh, George Pataki, Jane Pauley, Nancy Redd, Harry Reid, Nick Saban, Tamira A. Cole, Eric Greitens, and Mark Wahlberg."*

BTW -- the famous picture of a teenage Bill Clinton shaking President Kennedy's hand at the Rose Garden in late July 1963 was taken when he was attending Boys Nation, as a delegate from Arkansas.

[I'm a proud alum of Connecticut Boys State].
posted by ericb at 12:39 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


Dear tommasz , I amicably disagree with your comment. The fact is that children have been horrendously abused throughout history all over the planet or so badly parented that their personality disintegrated in the first 6 years. That and genetics seem to be the double ingredients that go into the creation of one of these monsters. Nature via nurture is one social scientist's/psychologist's opinion.

There have been plenty of malignant narcissists all over the place, from various Caesars, Inquisitors, Genghis Khan, Conquistadors, countless kings, queens and royalty...down to the not historically known ones. History is rotten with these villains. They're in all the children's fairy tales, the witch in Hansel and Gretel, Cruella deVille, Darth Vader, Snidely Whiplash. But in real life they don't look like a Snidely, Darth or a warty Witch. Usually they're physically beautiful or attractive, an Errol Flynn or smooth operators, like the Enron CEOs.

It's my opinion that human beings can learn to be better parents now, bring up emotionally healthier children with the knowledge of some psychology. With the help of the web people can know more about this malignant narcissist pathology, learn to recognize the traits in politicians, actors, business people, bosses, lovers et al and not just escape but let others know that they're dealing with a person with this pathology.

One of the heartening things for me, knowing about this Dark Side, personality disorder is that it is not widespread in society. It's limited, maybe 1% to 5% of the population. There are plenty of loving, empathic, considerate people in the world, who are all flawed in the regular human way, capable of being not nice at times but basically good.

The damage malignant narcissists do inevitably cause such massive pain that changes are made in society. A wrong change would be, imo, a sort of martial law, like The Patriot Act. Better, imo, is to educate people about the symptoms and tell-tale signs of malignant narcissists, so others can see the evil coming down the pike. There is no doubt in my mind that this Breivik character has been evil in the past too to others around him and that they will come out of the woodwork over time with their stories.
posted by nickyskye at 12:53 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Killer had connections to Pamela Geller hate group.
posted by empath at 1:01 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


There isn't any difference between extremism and terrorism with respect to connotations of plurality or continuation, jokeefe. Any news organization that switches terms now is tacitly enabling this murderers right-wing belief system.

I personally hope that some American Tea Party personalities like Pamela Geller are ultimately founds criminally and/or civilly liable for 'incitement', thus preventing them from investing in or traveling to Europe. I donno if that's realistic given they preach against Obama, not Jens Stoltenberg, but maybe.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:05 PM on July 23, 2011


"Killer had connections to Pamela Geller hate group."

And now Geller and Johnson seem to be arguing over whose "fan" Breivik was. I can only shake my head at Johnson who is, at least, as responsible for the current climate as Pam Geller, or anyone else for that matter, thinking he can take the moral high ground here. I'm still not buying into his "conversion" one iota.
posted by MikeMc at 1:16 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Graphic video of Utoya.

The Oslo bomb seconds after it occurred. Eyewitness video.

Guardian article: Edvard Fornes, 16, described how the gunman told the youths, "Don't be shy," and, "Come and play with me," before executing them. "There were two kids lying, hiding, in a ditch saying, 'please, please don't shoot us,' and he shot them."

Breivik bought six tons of fertiliser before the massacre

> he had posted on several Scandinavian websites, including Nordisk – a site frequented by neo-Nazis, far right radicals and Islamophobes since 2009.

Wow, more and more like the villains in The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo

The whole world is thinking of the children who died or survived the ordeal in Utøya.

Seconding Harald74's suggested site for leaving condolences. Even though the families of the children murdered or the families of those who died in the Oslo attack may never be truly consoled in their terrible loss, I do think knowing that others care, express affection, support and tenderness will be comforting during a time when many may feel despair.
posted by nickyskye at 1:23 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Geller was in Oslo in January 2009. I wonder who she met and spoke to; probably startied out meeting with SIOE people as just this last thursday atlas shrugs posted this shit.
posted by adamvasco at 1:24 PM on July 23, 2011


Forgive me if this message board post has already been linked to above and I missed it:

Sentiment similar to Øystein Runde's post

via Lars Marius Garshol (@larsga ) on twitter.
posted by stagewhisper at 1:24 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


From LGF: A video uploaded by the shooter, under the name Andrew Berwick. He had apparently written a book entitled Europe 2083, or something similar-- there's a download link on the LGF comment.
posted by jokeefe at 1:26 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Yeah, that's a quote from the Norwegian Prime Minister.
posted by Catfry at 1:26 PM on July 23, 2011


RE: stagewhispers link.
posted by Catfry at 1:26 PM on July 23, 2011


Today would be a good day to avoid YouTube comments.
posted by desjardins at 1:28 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


Sorry-- comment re: video and book is found in this thread, about his Pamela Gellar connections.
posted by jokeefe at 1:29 PM on July 23, 2011


my 2 takes on charles johnson:

It's the end of the world as we know it

Welcome back Chuck

i've been around since the beginning of a lot of bloggers. i am willing to take him at face value because i've seen his journey almost from the beginning.
posted by liza at 1:35 PM on July 23, 2011


I think Charles Johnson is pretty sincere. The dude just went nuts for a while after 9/11, it happened to a lot of people. He has been more aggressive and focused against people like Geller than any left wing sites I am aware of.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 1:36 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


"I think Charles Johnson is pretty sincere."

Maybe I'm just overly cynical but it seems to me that CJ noticed hairline cracks starting to appear in the hull of the good ship "Wingnut" and decided to abandon ship in order to garner some "atta boys" and positive press attention. But that's just MHO.
posted by MikeMc at 1:45 PM on July 23, 2011


Knights Templar 2083 - Movie Trailer.avi

Knights Templar (Freemasonry)

Your conspiracy-mongering free-association BS is just not appropriate here. If you can find some evidence of him saying he's doing for Freemasonry then I'll admit I was wrong, but until then you're just making stuff up.

Heh, what are your thoughts on that video Breivik posted days ago anigbrowl? Still think his Masonic mangling has nothing to do with his motivation for the mass murder?
posted by nickyskye at 1:54 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


Maybe I'm just overly cynical but it seems to me that CJ noticed hairline cracks starting to appear in the hull of the good ship "Wingnut" and decided to abandon ship in order to garner some "atta boys" and positive press attention. But that's just MHO.

In the being nice to Obama stuff, yeah maybe.

On terrorism though? I think he was legitimately, seriously scared when open fascists were attending and promoting "anti-jihad" events. It was no longer possible to see the movement he was a part of as very distinct from them.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 1:56 PM on July 23, 2011


I also share the view that Johnson is sincere. His basic concern has always been anti-Semitism. Fear against what he saw as anti-Semitism drew him towards the Islamophobic wingnut camp, and learning about the wing nuts' strange bedfellows among the (anti-Semitic) European far right, notably the Flemish ultranationalist Vlaams Belang, is what pushed him away from the likes of Pamela Geller.
posted by Skeptic at 1:56 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Breivik has a lawyer now. His choice was Geir Lippestad. Back in 2001, Lippestad was the public defender for one of the two neo-nazis who were convicted for the racist motivated killing of 15 year old Norwegian-African Benjamin Hermansen.
posted by iviken at 2:07 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Oh my god, that Knights Templar 2083 video is one of the most revolting, disturbing things I have ever seen. The guy apparently believed he was kicking off a second Crusade. Truly bone-chilling, especially at the end where he shows himself with his assault rife, followed by more Crusades imagery... holy fuck. Horrifying. I have to go take about twenty showers now.
posted by dialetheia at 2:11 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Heh, what are your thoughts on that video Breivik posted days ago anigbrowl? Still think his Masonic mangling has nothing to do with his motivation for the mass murder?

Crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons.
posted by empath at 2:25 PM on July 23, 2011


Regarding 'retreat' vs. 'camp': CNN just reported that 600 - 700 people were there for the weekend (Friday through Sunday). Thus, indeed (as above) -- a 'retreat.'
posted by ericb at 2:26 PM on July 23, 2011


In the same CNN television segment a Norwegian police officer's statement started with "He is a Freemason. This suspect."

So, again ... Why is this designation important to the investigation?
posted by ericb at 2:31 PM on July 23, 2011


Just to confirm, this isn't a random "summer camp" with a political theme. It's the summer retreat of the Youth Organization of the Norwegian Labor Party (AUF, Labor Youth Association). It's a yearly event gathering members of that organization, where they have a chance to meet politicians, discuss issues, and so on.

The AUF is known for being quite a bit further to the left than the parent party (which has become quite moderate in the last decades, similar to UK's labour).
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:31 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Utøya is more than simply a retreat. It's one of the biggest events on the calendar of the Labour Party. Some friends in the Icelandic social democratic sister party of the Norwegian Labour Party told me that speeches by sitting prime ministers at Utøya have been shown live on television in Norway.
posted by Kattullus at 2:32 PM on July 23, 2011


On (p)review I see that the Knights Templars and Masonry were indeed significant influences on the killer's worldview.
posted by ericb at 2:34 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Please tell me those two magazine covers in the video are a fake (4:23 - am only skimming through the video myself, cannot bear to watch the whole thing ugh). Or? The Economist cannot have run a cover title like "Eurabia - Europe committing demographic and cultural suicide", like that, no question mark, when they were the ones to publish articles debunking the whole concept as "scaremongering", right? I assume the Spectator would also not run with such inflammatory headlines as "Eurabian nightmare" and a crescent over Europe? Agh.

Not that I haven't seen headlines and covers that were almost as inflammatory from such "reputable" magazines as oh Spiegel or Stern oder so. Yikes. The media and the people using this rhetoric -- and those selling books filled with it, and those who did coin the "Eurabia" term with that intent -- will have a lot to think about for sure.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:37 PM on July 23, 2011


I'm sure they are photoshopped, bitteschoen. The image that made me stop watching in disgust was the pregnant Muslim woman drawn as if her belly were a bomb with a large fuse attached. Because they breed like rabbits and they're going to destroy us all, right?
posted by jokeefe at 2:46 PM on July 23, 2011


They did, and the "Eurabia" idea is a large recruiter for Western Islamophobia. It's part of the story they use to radicalize ordinary people. When you view of Western society finally flips round, you see that we have our very own Al-Qaeda, along with its supporters, apologists, funders, and even terrorists. People like Melanie Phillips and Mark Steyn aren't disinterested commentators on society, but they're part of a global network that feeds terrorism.
posted by Jehan at 2:47 PM on July 23, 2011


Reports: Oslo bombing suspect prepped attacks in May.
posted by ericb at 2:50 PM on July 23, 2011


Knights Templar 2083:

YouTube removed it, but here's a working link.

WTF.
posted by homunculus at 2:50 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]




80 killed is pretty extraordinary from a logistical point of view for one man to pull off like that


Not really. Considering the technology today, it is even a remarkable low number.

"..the leverage provided by technology; eventually one man will be able to declare war on the world and win" John Robb
posted by yoyo_nyc at 2:56 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


The video is also on Vimeo
posted by syzygy at 2:56 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


At 10:37 in the video: "MULTICULTI TRAITOR HUNTING PERMIT - TAGGING NOT REQUIRED - NO BAG LIMIT"
posted by elgilito at 2:57 PM on July 23, 2011


Wow. Just, wow. Is Forbes actually condoning the attacks or what?
posted by Skeptic at 3:07 PM on July 23, 2011 [17 favorites]


I see that the Knights Templars and Masonry were indeed significant influences on the killer's worldview.

Earlier this week I was in a Barnes and Noble and I found myself in the "world history" section. Almost half of the books in the section were on Freemasons or the Knights Templar.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 3:08 PM on July 23, 2011


It seems to me this guy is the endpoint of a gradual development of far-right ideology from racial and genetic, to ideological, to cultural. He's anti-Marxist, anti-Islam, and anti-Nazi, and supported the state of Israel.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:11 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Wow. Just, wow. Is Forbes actually condoning the attacks or what?
posted by Skeptic at 11:07 PM on July 23 [+] [!]


It basically is: "Look what you made this person do with your immigration policy. You have been warned".

Enough for me. I can not take this much more. I have been following all day and am emotionally exhausted.
posted by Catfry at 3:11 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


I have seen many "Liberal Hunting Permit" tshirts in Tennessee. The first time I saw one was at the county fair in my small, East Tennessee hometown in 2003 or so.
posted by vibrotronica at 3:13 PM on July 23, 2011


Wow. Just, wow. Is Forbes actually condoning the attacks or what?

We should neither negotiate with nor appease terrorists.
posted by Jehan at 3:13 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


The bio of paranoid bigot journalist who wrote that Forbes piece mentions that she's also written a book called : Radical State: How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy In the West

If she's looking for enablers perhaps she should start closer to home.
posted by titus-g at 3:16 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


"Almost half of the books in the section were on Freemasons or the Knights Templar."

You can thank Dan Brown for that.
posted by MikeMc at 3:18 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


Apparently, he has a manifesto (machine translation).
posted by klausness at 3:22 PM on July 23, 2011


This is looking less and less like political violence and more like crazy magical thinking.

WSJ reports that TV2 cited a police source as confirming the video and book were the shooter's. The YouTube upload happened right before the bombing.
posted by warbaby at 3:24 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Dan Brown just ripped off Robert Anton Wilson.

"I think I'm the most ripped-off artist of our time," says Wilson. "I wrote about them too early," says Wilson, raising a thin arm and shaking his finger to emphasize his point: "Don't be premature."
posted by thescientificmethhead at 3:24 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Wow. Just, wow. Is Forbes actually condoning the attacks or what?


well, to be fair, it's a Forbes.com blogger, not Forbes per se
posted by Bwithh at 3:29 PM on July 23, 2011


Right - Forbes just gives them money to write this shit and puts their name at the top of the page. Yeah. Not Forbes' at all. Just like Ron Paul isn't a racist, it was just some guy who wrote racist articles in his newsletter that he published and had his name on. Yup.
posted by symbioid at 3:33 PM on July 23, 2011 [7 favorites]


TV2.no on the video

According to the article, he's claimed responsibility for the video (confirmed by police sources).
posted by syzygy at 3:34 PM on July 23, 2011


From the aftenposten.no Google translated article: > he spent 80 days in preparing bombs

He also refers to a fancy-dress party in the fall, where he talks about dressing up as a policeman.
"I will arrive with distinctions (insignias. journ.anm). It's going to be great since those who come will be very surprised :-).


Between detailed descriptions of how he planned terrorist attack, he writes 9 April, among other things, new computer games he plays. He also writes that he was very angry and frustrated at his mother who he lived with, accusing her of infecting him with a sore throat.
"It was the third time she had infected me in the last two years, and I was very angry and frustrated. The production phase was SO close, just 20 days away, and now I'm potentially neutralized the next three weeks, "writes Behring Breivik.


[Poor widdle sociopath, his mommy gave him an inconvenient sore throat!]

The video appears to be an argument for a network of individual cells that should have been established in London in April 2002.
The network referred to as the "Knights Templar Europe", and twelve people from ten European countries will have participated in the meeting.

Their goal should be to take political and military power from the so-called multi-cultural elite.


[Huh, sounds like a conspiracy.]

[He seems to like fancy uniforms.]

He also quotes Professor Thomas Hylland Eriksen to explain his views on multiculturalism, which Breivik consider a hatideologi to deconstruct Europe.
posted by nickyskye at 3:36 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


"It is, in many ways, the inevitable outcome of a multiculturalist ideal that, in practice, has failed – and in this case, failed fatally."

Forbes has put their imprimatur on this. I wonder if it will get pulled.
posted by MikeMc at 3:38 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Blake Houndsell, managing editor of Foreign Policy, has been tweeting on the journal/book.
posted by warbaby at 3:40 PM on July 23, 2011


Skeptic: "Wow. Just, wow. Is Forbes actually condoning the attacks or what"

Is blaming everything on multiculturalism condoning? A fine line. Definitely some kind of transference going on there. Don't over-analyze, though. As usual it boils down to ITS ALL THE LIBERALS FAULT.

Check out how she distinguishes Brievik from other anti-muslim groups in Europe:

On far too many occasions, more extremist right wing groups have taken to striking back: burning mosques, painting swastikas on Muslims’ homes, and committing similar acts of hate. Breivik has simply taken a different approach: he attacked what he sees as the enablers — frustrated, perhaps, by a failure to vote them out of power.

See, Breivikis is different because, in her view, he's striking at the root of the threat. To take her argument to its logical conclusion, the problem is that Brievik is not in charge of the country.
posted by telstar at 3:41 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


That Forbes article made me physically nauseous.
posted by desjardins at 3:43 PM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg: "The answer to violence is even more democracy" (subtitled video at press conference).
posted by humph at 3:45 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


Thanks for posting that link to Blake's Twitter feed, warbaby. I've been following him for quite a few years now.
posted by NoMich at 3:46 PM on July 23, 2011


What a brutal and cowardly act, almost unfathomable.

Dan Brown just ripped off Robert Anton Wilson.

Reminds me, the brilliant HBO series "Carnivale" ('03-'05) also had a Knights Templar backstory.
posted by NorthernSky at 3:47 PM on July 23, 2011


Be careful there, if you try and explain the roots of Muslim extremism in terms of the results of imperialism and poverty you are going to be accused by some of "justifying" their actions.

The Forbes article is more problematic in that regard since the complaint has less validity but you need to separate that out from supporting the bombing even if you feel that kind of rhetoric played a role in inspiring it.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:47 PM on July 23, 2011


So he's a PC gamer. Sigh. Here we go again.

It begins: Was Anders Behring Breivik Inspired By Video Game Character "Anders" In "Dragon Age 2"?

*Sigh*
posted by homunculus at 3:48 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


nickyskye, while I appreciate your diligence in chasing up facts, repeatedly using this thread, of all places, as a venue for scoring gotcha!-points against doubters of your pet theory is at best insensitive, and at worst, deeply offensive. Can we please just stop with the petty pot-shots?
posted by sophistrie at 3:51 PM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


And now Geller and Johnson seem to be arguing over whose "fan" Breivik was. I can only shake my head at Johnson who is, at least, as responsible for the current climate as Pam Geller, or anyone else for that matter, thinking he can take the moral high ground here. I'm still not buying into his "conversion" one iota.

Yeah, when you turn over those rotten logs, it's amazing how all the creepy-crawlies scurry, isn't it?
posted by emjaybee at 3:51 PM on July 23, 2011


homunculus, that article's main claim is that he LOOKS like the video game character. That couldn't be more ridiculous.
posted by desjardins at 3:53 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Houndsell's just posted his analysis on FP: What did the Oslo killer want?
posted by warbaby at 3:53 PM on July 23, 2011


What's particularly disturbing about that Forbes article is that it "explains" the massacre at length, and yet it does not spend a single word to condemn it or even suggest that it was wrong. I've already read such "explaining" before. In terrorist manifestos.
posted by Skeptic at 3:53 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


So he's a PC gamer. Sigh. Here we go again.

It begins: Was Anders Behring Breivik Inspired By Video Game Character "Anders" In "Dragon Age 2"?

*Sigh*


@blakehounshell who is an editor at the US magazine Foreign Policy is tweeting selected points from the Breivik's suspected manifesto, so you don't have to read the whole thing yourself. A lot of chilling stuff from there (including claims that a new group (which we would call terrorist or extremist but they don't think of themselves as that) identifying themselves as the Knights of Templar has formed with members from various European countries, dedicating themselves to defending Christian Europe from Islam)

Among the points that Hounshell picks out is the recommendation that would-be crusaders who decide to dedicate themselves to the struggle tell their families and friends that they are now spending a lot of time playing video games like World of Warcraft, so they don't get suspicious when the would-be crusaders start spending lots of time away from their usual life
posted by Bwithh at 3:57 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


sophistrie: nickyskye has something of a reputation for tracking down the latest breaking news and putting together the pieces. Seems she's been spot on (again) in this thread. I appreciate her posts. If you don't like them, you might want to try ignoring them.
posted by syzygy at 3:57 PM on July 23, 2011 [16 favorites]


But they do not breed goodwill; rather, the result is that Europeans feel increasingly – and understandably – threatened. On far too many occasions, more extremist right wing groups have taken to striking back: burning mosques, painting swastikas on Muslims’ homes, and committing similar acts of hate. Breivik has simply taken a different approach: he attacked what he sees as the enablers — frustrated, perhaps, by a failure to vote them out of power. It is a new form of protest, and he is the first to use it. But I fear that, unless Europe begins demanding that its Muslim population live according to its Enlightenment traditions and the values of democracy, he will not be the last.
Boy, that Abigail R. Esman from Forbes sure knows how to turn a stomach with a turn of phrase. I'm apoplectic that she seems to be saying that, because democracy didn't work the way he wanted it, it was somehow "understandable" that he'd shoot up an island full of teenagers because it's "a protest." It isn't a new form of protest at all. It's being a terrorist.

The thing about democracy is that sometimes you don't get your way. The rational way to address losing elections is to work harder and campaign and try to influence people to your side (or get rich and throw money at politicians), not buy tons of fertilizer and blow up government buildings, then pick up a gun and shoot up a campground full of children who aren't even old enough to vote. Sheesh.
posted by MegoSteve at 4:04 PM on July 23, 2011 [9 favorites]


From @blakehounshell's tweets - the anti-Islam manifesto author also praises Osama Bin Laden as a great leader (if Mohammed was alive today, OBL would be second in command) and Al Qaeda as a successful militant organization, (presumably implying its something for the new crusaders to aspire to.). Also, several members of the Knights Templar identified as "Christian atheist" (presumably meaning culturally Christian but non-religious).
posted by Bwithh at 4:09 PM on July 23, 2011


She says it is understandable that he felt threatened. That is valid, I can understand it too even if I disagree that the fear is justified. She lists striking back as happening too much even before the attack, and calls it an act of hate. She does not get more intense than that in her use of language, but I think most articles won't be taking pains to point out mass murder is bad since it is a generally well known fact.

She goes wrong in saying that the solution is to make immigrants conform, but she is saying that because she thinks that is the best policy, not because she thinks bombings are a good idea.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:11 PM on July 23, 2011


Change every reference to Muslims in that Forbes article to Jews and set the date to 1938 to see how chilling it really is.
posted by desjardins at 4:12 PM on July 23, 2011 [22 favorites]


Abigail R. Esman, Forbes Magazine: The wholesale murder of defenseless teens on a tiny island was a protest.

Because, you see, they represent a liberal ideology and multiculturalism. Breivik, had no choice but to make a protest against them.

It their own fault. They forced his hand. He only did what any Right-wing extremist Christian conservative would be driven to do, I guess.


Holy fucking brain rotted Ayn Rand mind-control.


Talk about bad taste, and heartlessness and being out of your fucking skull and indoctrinated into seeing everything through a ideological lens and no matter how devoid of humanity or logic???

Maybe someone should check the offices of Forbes magazine or this woman's house at the very least for large quantities of ammonia nitrate fertilizer and automatic weapons.
posted by Skygazer at 4:23 PM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


Heh, what are your thoughts on that video Breivik posted days ago anigbrowl? Still think his Masonic mangling has nothing to do with his motivation for the mass murder?

My thoughts are that you probably hadn't watched it at the time you posted that. I actually began typing 'I was wrong', but then stopped to watch it to find out how wrong I was. But after watching the whole thing, I'm not seeing it. There's one picture of him in his Masonic apron near the end of it (the same one that's been in the news articles), and that's the only Masonic symbolism in the entire video.

The Knights Templar (the historical one, not this xenophobic reboot) have a loose historical connection with the Masons. There's an order of Knights Templar within Masonry, closely allied to the Knights of Malta and the Hospitallers. These have evolved into charitable-type organizations over the years; likewise, in the US there's a 'DeMolay society' aimed at preppy young men with its own lodges and an affiliation with mainstream Freemasonry. But they're really two separate traditions. The tradition of religious knights has always had close connections with the Catholic church, and membership in any of those organizations requires one to be a practicing Christian if not an actual Catholic. This seems to be part of why Christian reconstructionists have seized on the idea, presumably figuring that since Islam strictly forbids apostasy the best way to to maintain an Islam-free-zone is make it overtly sectarian rather than secular. On the other hand, Freemasonry and religion have had a rather more strained relationship, and multiple popes have condemned Freemasonry as incompatible with Christianity, originating with the devil and so on - not least because there are various non-Christian religious influences on Freemasonry. Also, there's no obligation to be Christian in order to be a Mason - they'll take Muslims, Hindus, and whoever else. One just has to express a belief in some 'higher power' outside oneself...but people who are interested can study up about Freemasonry without my help.

As regards this guy and this video, it's clear that the guy has a deep and abiding hatred of Marxists and Muslims, and hews very closely to the nativist/isolationist stereotype that is familiar to political observers and students of history. This just does not fit in with the traditions of Freemasonry, and I simply don't see any Masonic imagery in there - no square, no compass, no Masonic buildings, no passphrases, nothing. There's just that one picture of him in an apron, followed by another picture of him in some quasi-military outfit which I don't recognize. But most of the imagery is of heroic and Aryan-looking knights in armor, some of which seem to have been lifted from a videogame.

This is not to deny that he's a Mason, which he apparently was. One could be a Mason and a closet Nativist, and there might even be groups of people within a Masonic lodge who shared such ideas. But he hasn't put any of it into his video that I can see. I've had a lifelong interest in Templar history and have been in the original Temple in London (which is open to the public) but i don't see any of their 'inner' symbolism either - just a couple of logos and a bunch of medieval superhero imagery. Maybe there's other stuff in his 'book', I haven't looked at that yet. I'd rather not sit through his offensive propaganda video again either, but if I do spot something on a later viewing then I'll have to change my mind.

So far, though, I stand by my original comments. If you think different, then please point out where in the video (min:sec) you are seeing stuff you consider to be Masonic. I'm quite willing to change my mind about this, as long as it's something more specific than 'Tsar Nicholas happened to be a Mason...coincidence?'
posted by anigbrowl at 4:25 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


Change every reference to Muslims in that Forbes article to Jews

I did (I also changed Islamic to Zionist). Some highlights (as it were):

Usually, one tends to think of this problem as one that leads to Jewish attacks on non-Jewish targets

popular not only among anti-Zionist activists, but amont even more moderate types concerned about the rise of radical Zionism in the West.


non-Jews are taking a hard line against immigration and what they view as dangerous concessions to the demands of Jewish groups.

and finally...

unless Europe begins demanding that its Jewish population live according to its Enlightenment traditions and the values of democracy, he will not be the last.

posted by MikeMc at 4:32 PM on July 23, 2011


There's been a kind of bitter amusement reading Gates of Vienna's attempt to distance themselves from Breivik. Even though he was a huge fan of the site, linked to it, and engaged in posted conversations with Fjordman, another close associate. Pamela Geller, as well, with all the comments and posts he made on Atlas Shrugged, now hissing at anyone suggesting that there might just be a connection... And to reiterate disgust at the Forbes piece.
posted by jokeefe at 4:33 PM on July 23, 2011


Wait a minute ... according to that Forbes article - unless I misread it -- the killer kept a diary of his 82 day attempt at making a weapon of mass destruction (the fertilizer bomb) - on the StormFront web site ???

Unless I am misreading that way the hell isn't the FBI and Homeland (un)Security raiding all Stormfront sites in the U.S. and all Stormfromt principles right now?

What am I missing ?
posted by Poet_Lariat at 4:37 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


A witness from Utøya (Google translation) says to VG that two children, one of them only 7 or 8 years old, were killed at Utøya. They children were at the island to collect emtpy bottles for recycling.
posted by iviken at 4:40 PM on July 23, 2011


Poet_Lariat - where are you seeing that? The Forbes article doesn't mention Stormfront at all.
posted by desjardins at 4:43 PM on July 23, 2011


P_L, that's this link actually, and everyone should go read it. I assumed the FBI was ALREADY reading everything on Stormfront.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:44 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


Yeah, if the FBI isn't already monitoring Stormfront, they are a very bad Federal Bureau of Investigations.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:45 PM on July 23, 2011 [8 favorites]


Amazing. From the Forbes piece:
Their concerns are real: efforts to censor the Danish cartoons; to restage Mozart operas (as happened in Berlin in 2006); to silence dissent (as in the recent criminal case brought against Wilders, and similar compromises to democratic principles, have created a sense of genuine fear for the future of European culture.
What? European culture must be pretty shaky if these things--a trial, a controversial cartoon, Mozart (!)--threaten it.
posted by jokeefe at 4:47 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


"Yeah, if the FBI isn't already monitoring Stormfront"

They are, probably half the membership of the "old line" white power groups are FBI informants. I think the manifesto posted to Stormfront and the diary are two separate documents and it's not clear the diary was posted online.
posted by MikeMc at 4:50 PM on July 23, 2011


> scoring gotcha!-points against doubters of your pet theory

When a person poses a challenge ("If you can find some evidence of him saying he's doing for Freemasonry then I'll admit I was wrong") and I do prove them wrong, I hardly think that's playing gotcha.
posted by nickyskye at 4:51 PM on July 23, 2011 [6 favorites]


A generous reading there is more that the compromises are being made out of fear of terrorism rather than cultural sensitivity. In a situation where terrorism can lead to censorship of culture there is a problem.

Christ, I feel bad defending that shitty article but I saw too many people trying to honestly engage in explaining Islamic extremism get called out for the wrong reasons back in the day.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:52 PM on July 23, 2011


"What? European culture must be pretty shaky if these things--a trial, a controversial cartoon, Mozart (!)--threaten it."

Eh, I'd say that's a fairly shallow reading of that part. On preview what furiousxgeorge said.
posted by MikeMc at 4:54 PM on July 23, 2011


That's really fucking generous
posted by fullerine at 4:55 PM on July 23, 2011


That's really fucking generous

I know, but it's what is at the heart of stuff like the South Park episode on the issue of censorship of the cartoons. A lot of people who aren't in favor of violent response feel threatened by this.

She describes anti-Muslim attacks as acts of hate which happen far too often. In that context, I think it is best to assume she is just making a moderate point in such a chillingly stupid way that she is coming off worse than she actually is.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:59 PM on July 23, 2011


The video is chilling.
posted by knapah at 5:00 PM on July 23, 2011


*Moderate by the standards of the anti-Muslim crowd.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:00 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I've been looking at the discussions over on Free Republic a bit as well, and reactions there range from confused to meltdown, predictably enough. A few people (< 5%) are grounded in fact and deeply upset to find Breivik was 'on their side' and as a result are being ostracized. ~50% can't believe it because 'no true Christian would do that' and 'those terms mean something different in Europe because they're all socialists, not like an American conservative such as Reagan' etc. etc.

Maybe 25% think it's a staged operations (possibly to facilitate a United Nations gun-grab effort to oppress us all, as the UN happens to be negotiating a treaty to reduce small-arms smuggling right now) Or maybe he's really a Muslim pretending to be a Christian or something. Another 25% or so are disturbingly supportive of the guy and think that attacking 'future muzzie-loving commies' is an entirely reasonable thing to do.

Interestingly, stormfront.org is entirely closed to non-members without a login right now, which makes me think either he had an account there or that such a majority of the membership have declared him to be their new hero that the admins have no choice but to draw the curtains or shut down the entire site. I hope the people who approve of this are too paranoid to feel safe right now, and that their paranoia is enough to prevent a rash of copycat attacks. Reading FR and the dependably xenophobic RW blogs is a nauseating experience. I'm alarmed by the numbers of people in the US who seem to either sympathize with the guy, or sound just like him and are not aaware of doing so. Even people who are condemning the guy in one sentence and implicitly endorsing him in the next, seemingly unaware of how little daylight there is between him and them. I'd rather not quote examples.
posted by anigbrowl at 5:00 PM on July 23, 2011 [12 favorites]


What? European culture must be pretty shaky if these things--a trial, a controversial cartoon, Mozart (!)--threaten it.

I guess the bit where there have been actual attempted murders of cartoonists, and sucessful attacks on film-makers, just passed you by.
posted by rodgerd at 5:02 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


I've been looking at the discussions over on Free Republic

That's taking one for the team!
posted by desjardins at 5:02 PM on July 23, 2011 [10 favorites]


. Another 25% or so are disturbingly supportive of the guy and think that attacking 'future muzzie-loving commies' is an entirely reasonable thing to do.

25% of FreeRepublic commenters are in favor of murdering children in cold blood. I have no words.
posted by emjaybee at 5:03 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Umm, there isn't much reality linking the tirades against multiculturalism to the actual problems imposed upon and/or created by immigrant communities in Europe, furiousxgeorge.

We aren't talking about someone like Pim Fortuyn who invited immigrants who had successfully integrated to become political leaders. We're talking about straight up bigots.

As a counter 'modest proposal', maybe we need a minimum population density for residential zoning, i.e. move all these bigots into cities to force to interact with immigrant communities.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:06 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


A couple of years ago I taught English to a 28 year old Parisian stock broker. His feelings were very much like those expressed in the Forbes article.

The Gastarbeiter issue has been a many decades old one in Europe in various forms, sometimes connected with the fact that countries in Europe that once colonized Asia or Africa were now dealing with immigrants from those very countries they had once controlled, eg Algerians in France, Pakistanis in England, Côte d'Ivoirians in France etc.

There have been immigration reform issues in the USA.

None of the immigration issues -anywhere- ever justifies mass murder. It seems that people who commit hate crimes target scapegoat groups, then try to justify the hate with political or religious theories, manipulated for the purpose.
posted by nickyskye at 5:11 PM on July 23, 2011


Umm, there isn't much reality linking the tirades against multiculturalism to the actual problems imposed upon and/or created by immigrant communities in Europe, furiousxgeorge.

I agree entirely.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:11 PM on July 23, 2011


"I'd rather not quote examples."

I will, from one Mark Humphrys:
The killer was right-wing and anti-jihad, yes, but he was not a neo-Nazi (he was pro-Israel) or a white supremacist (he opposed the BNP because they are racist). He was Christian, but not a fanatic (he was pro-gay).

In fact he was apparently like me - liberal right. He was anti-racist, pro-gay and pro-Israel. So how on earth did someone like that become a terrorist against the West?
posted by MikeMc at 5:16 PM on July 23, 2011


I'd just like to point out that being pro-Israel does not mean you're anti-Nazi, these days.
posted by syzygy at 5:24 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


"how on earth did someone like that become a terrorist against the West?"

I don't understand why he struggles with that question, the shooter clearly saw the AUF and the Labour Party as anti-West. Simple as that. So he didn't think of himself as a terrorist against the West, but as a Western resistance fighter.

I'm struggling much more with how to stop myself thinking this kind of event is effectively impossible to prevent, and we're just going to have to live with it. Attempts to 'educate' people will be seen as indoctrination by people with similar views to this man, attempts to control weapons are basically futile... pfft.

It's depressing.
posted by knapah at 5:27 PM on July 23, 2011


Maybe I should explain my comment in more detail, lest it's misunderstood.

Heinz Christian Strache, the head of FPÖ, Austria's far-right party, has recently cozied up to Israel, visiting the country last year. A quote from his visit to the West Bank: Our hearts are with you, Israel!"

If I recall correctly, he's not the only far-right European who's declared solidarity with Israel (implicit therein is the idea that radical Islam is the common enemy of Israel and right wing politicians).
posted by syzygy at 5:31 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I took a look at FR. They can't even wrap their heads around the ideas in this guy's manifesto and ideology. Amazing.
posted by jokeefe at 5:33 PM on July 23, 2011


Umm, there isn't much reality linking the tirades against multiculturalism to the actual problems imposed upon and/or created by immigrant communities in Europe, furiousxgeorge.

Correct. Rants against "multiculturalism" are hardly ever fully integrated with the facts. Almost every year we are greeted by somebody blowing their head about Christmas being abolished in favor of "Winterfest" or somesuch. And every year we have to drag out the facts about how it's not really true, and the story was made up to sell newspapers to outraged folk, and so on. A fake story's not just for Christmas though, as the media trot out the same nag any time they please on any topic. I'm not surprised that so many people are against "multiculturalism" as they probably think that it's roughly equivalent to stopping people frying bacon (Daily Mail). Most folk don't even know how to define multiculturalism, and their complaints end up pretty incoherent as a result.

I've personally spent a lot of time here and there convincing members of my family that something they read in the newspaper isn't actually true. I always try and direct them to better newspapers, or better media, which won't feed them with bull. But I can imagine that there is a great and growing sea of people who have fed upon hateful stories for years without check. Breivik is only an extreme outcome, but sadly not alone.
posted by Jehan at 5:34 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


What's particularly disturbing about that Forbes article is that it "explains" the massacre at length, and yet it does not spend a single word to condemn it or even suggest that it was wrong.

it's a very strange article. She starts off almost sympathising with Breivik, and justifying his actions (she does use the word "horrific" though), then she jumps right on the "it's the muslim's fault" horse. Strange woman.
posted by the noob at 5:34 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


"I'm struggling much more with how to stop myself thinking this kind of event is effectively impossible to prevent, and we're just going to have to live with it."

I think they are almost impossible to prevent without someone close to the would be perpetrator recognizing that something very bad is about to happen. Talk is cheap on the internet and all kinds of potential signs get dismissed because the signal to noise ratio online is so low. One man attacks can be very difficult to prevent. See: Phineas Priesthood
posted by MikeMc at 5:36 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


25% of FreeRepublic commenters are in favor of murdering children in cold blood. I have no words.

Don't make too much of my 25% comment above - that's not a scientific analysis, and I'm giving you my subjective filtered impression of the discussion - an opinion that doesn't really rise to the level of fact. I want to stress that, as otherwise I'd be no better than people over there saying 'libs are jumping for joy that this guy is blond and blue-eyed'. Maybe I should just have said 'some' or 'quite a few' - but anyway, enough that it's disturbing.

I looked at the guy's 'book' - assuming it is in fact by Brievick. Someone suggested that 'Andrew Berwick' was an anglicized version of Anders Brievik so I'm going to assume it's legit. The manifesto is truly disturbing; whereas the Turner Diaries is nasty racist propaganda in novel form, this thing is an actual textbook written by an intelligent and skilled communicator. At the opening he mentions sending copies via email to his 7000 facebook friends (apparently from a previously existing account), and requests that people disseminate it as widely as possible. He then goes on to talk about how he has spent most of the last decade and some 300,000 euro on putting it all together, but says that this is nothing 'in comparison to the sacrifices that will be required for the marketing campaign'. I have only skimmed it so far but the rest of it seems equally stomach-turning.

It is not an incoherent rant. Although I think his basic ideas are absurd (preservation of white culutre, international communist conspiracies, precious bodily fluids type stuff), the working out of the ideas is anything but. This is a manual for military and political revolution, with everything from advice on the manufacture and maintenance of body armor to bomb construction to how-tos on political activism to insurgency and guerilla warfare techniques. It contains lists of political figures (including in the US for targeted attacks, and much, much more. It claims to be culmination of a 10 year project. The only good thing I can see is that there's a lot of diary information and mention of contacts and places that would be useful to intelligence services in investigating the guy's social network and rolling it up across multiple countries...but chances are that large parts of it are deliberately distorted or details falsified in order to create red herrings which will mislead police and intelligence investigators.

I have never seen anything quite like it. This is very disturbing, and not only in the context of yesterday's horrifying rampage. I have been watching RW movements in general for years and the modern US nativist movement in particular for the last few years. Putting this together with my own research into the structure and funding of that movement is very worrying - so much so, that I don't feel comfortable going into details. Obviously agencies within government are already aware of this and have access to far more resources and intelligence to deal with this issue than I do, but regrettably this is not a wholly external problem. I don't feel comfortable discussing this publicly just now, lest an inaccurate or speculative remark lead to misunderstanding or paranoia.
posted by anigbrowl at 5:43 PM on July 23, 2011 [21 favorites]


"this thing is an actual textbook written by an intelligent and skilled communicator."

The level of detail is astounding. He spends page after page after page discussing optimal body armor combinations and even the specific brands of armor and where they can be purchased (I checked, one of the sites he mentions does sell IDF body armor). I've only scratched the surface of this document but one thing lept off the page at me was the term "MSM". That strikes me as very much a Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Reilly use of the term. Not sure why that stood out so much.
posted by MikeMc at 6:24 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


If the killer's ideology seems confusing, remember that European extreme right wing was always an ideological cesspool and still is. It's a hodge-podge of often conflicting and contradictory ideologies. Hardcore catholics "cohabit" with pagans and atheists. Some are obsessed about the evil of homosexuality, others are socially liberal. Some are old-school-elders-of-Zion antisemites, others admire those badass Israelis. Racial nativism vs cultural nativism. Haters of the cosmopolitan-Jewish-run-America, lovers of the death-penalty-gun-loving-America. Before islamophobia became a fashion, many longed for the kind of strongman dictatures found in the Middle-East. Economic thought is all over the place. There are some constants - nativism, a certain taste for violent "solutions" - but otherwise the only thing that really binds these people together is fear, a fear bordering on paranoia, and they choose to express this fear by hating someone else, with a passion.
posted by elgilito at 6:26 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


Most of those in SS Einsatzgruppen or in NKVD execution squads, most Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution, most Khmer Rouge, most Hutu interhamwe militias or Serb soldiers in Srebrenica weren't insane, they were sane and could understand perfectly well what they were doing. Such evil isn't a mental illness, it's a moral one, and unless we are vigilant, we could all be afflicted.

As to the Einstazgruppe and KR killers I will say no, not really true. Most were not sane or at least grounded in some form of humanity. In fact Himmler was afraid his own regular SS could not gun down 10s of thousands of people a day. Same goes for alot of camp guards, killers were actually released and sought. This is one motivation for the dehuamnizing...inhuman method of killing, a mindless automation factory of death and forced labor.

Alot of the KR who did the killing were men, women and children, 98% with no education and a severe distrust anything western. This is why Teoul Slang was created, to murder the murderers and those who questioned.

These are facts, these groups of people were anything but sane. I believe most here are trying to draw distictions between fuctionally insane and those that are not.

If this book is his, I too read it as a form of turner diaries with a twist of bent history cloaked in a warped view of freemasonry. I am befuddled that people are drawing this into his motives and even influence. Most likly from those who have do not know anything about freemasonry.

I would pay attention to the instituion he has hurt that makes this even more evil, dressing as a policeman, a person that is sworn to protect.

I see he was a christian, lets see if that too is on trail.
posted by clavdivs at 6:31 PM on July 23, 2011


I'm going to try and refrain from quoting his manifesto beyond this from the section titled:

"Annual political party meeting Barbeque"

A prioritised target is the annual party meeting of the socialist/social democrat party in your country.

An entry strategy might be to use fireman‘s clothing when entering the building. This allows you to conceal your armour and weapons under the fireman‘s coat

and

Alternative approaches
An alternative approach would be to deploy mobile bombs at strategic places outside the main entrance (perhaps even a car loaded with explosives) and then trigger the fire alarm (block the other fire exits just in case). Just after the bomb detonates, wiping out multiple delegates, you will finish the job with a sub machine gun or flame thrower to ensure a maximum amount of casualties and thus cause the most efficient terror effect.
posted by MikeMc at 6:33 PM on July 23, 2011


Some are old-school-elders-of-Zion antisemites, others admire those badass Israelis.

I have encountered people who have both those attributes at once. I think that this, and the avowed admiration of Al Qaeda combined with Islamophobia, can easily reconciled, at least in the case of people like Brievik. Some virulent ethnic nationalists see themselves as belonging to a team -- their nation -- and their object is to win. They are happy to admire the efforts of other teams, and even emulate them, in order to crush them. There is even something sporting about it. They see themselves as players of a terrible inhuman game.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:34 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


David Neiwert: Norway terrorist Breivik was an ardent subscriber to theories of 'Cultural Marxism'
posted by homunculus at 6:41 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Looking at some of the horrid excerpts from the madman's writings I think that there should be a category of punishment , "crimes against humanity", where the perpetrator receives the death penalty.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 6:46 PM on July 23, 2011


saulgoodman: "Doesn't matter what we know now. A lot of people are still going to carry a vague feeling that al-Qaeda and radical Islam was responsible for this attack for the rest of their lives because that's how human memory works. And the US news will stop covering this story any second now."

Did they ever honestly cover it properly? I spent more time hunting int'l sources and following links here. Most media here was so superficial it was kind of "why bother?"
posted by TravellingCari at 6:53 PM on July 23, 2011


I think the drive to define "people who do stuff I don't like" as insane is pretty inane. "Insane" means a disconnection reality or an inability to think rationally. These guys are disconnected from your view of morality. That's not insane it's just bad. This guy doesn't seem to have any psychological troubles the way Jared Lee Loughner did, he seemed rational, although I don't think his attack will have the effect he intended.
posted by delmoi at 6:55 PM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


Scanning through the manifesto, he seems to think global warming is both a fraud and simultaneously caused by the third world.
posted by Bookhouse at 6:56 PM on July 23, 2011


From the alleged diary of the the guy who murdered so many guys and girls I'd like to puke:

We had a few beers and talked, very cosy<3 I remember telling ***GirlName*** about my
career as a writer, telling her that I wasn’t planning on actually selling the book but rather
to distribute it freely in order to more efficiently propagate our cause to a broader audience
(they were all cultural conservative btw). ***Girlname*** told me that she believed I was driven by idealism, which is of course true, but that I actually lived my dream. While I didn’t want to start to argue that particular factor, as I don’t like appearing like a pooper or to risk blowing my cover, it got me thinking. Are, we, the reactionary revolutionary conservatives really living our dream or are we making a sacrifice? To be honest, if I felt that other people could do my job I would not do what I do, that I can guarantee you. I don’t want to do what I do, I would rather focus on starting a family and focus on my career again. But I an’t do that as long as I feel like a person caught in a burning spaceship with nowhere to go.If you see the ship is burning you don’t ignore it and start cooking noodles do you? You put out the fire even if it endangers your life. You don’t enjoy putting out the fire but it is your duty to yourself and your fellow crewmen. And let’s say your crewmen have been
infected with a rare virus that shuts down their rational senses and they try to stop you from putting out the fire. You can’t really allow yourself to be stopped by any of them as it will lead to your collective death. You will do anything to put out that fire despite of the fact that they are trying to stop you. Anything else would be illogical.

Except listening to that girl, stop thinking about Star Trek scenarios and start reading Don Quixote, which may have helped you get rid of that fucking Holy Knight fixation of yours.
posted by elpapacito at 6:56 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


where the perpetrator receives the death penalty.... thus escaping punishment.

where the perpetrator receives a life sentence and lives in a small neon lit room for the rest of his life... thus being supplied with ample time to reflect on his predicament.
posted by the noob at 6:59 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Damn I screwed formatting
posted by elpapacito at 7:00 PM on July 23, 2011


I feel like a person caught in a burning spaceship with nowhere to go.If you see the ship is burning you don’t ignore it and start cooking noodles do you? You put out the fire even if it endangers your life.

I have read a statement very close to that from the Unibomber.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:02 PM on July 23, 2011


where the perpetrator receives a life sentence and lives in a small neon lit room for the rest of his life... thus being supplied with ample time to reflect on his predicament.

...while being provided regular updates on how the world outside is becoming neither the world he feared nor the world he wanted. No physical torture could be worse.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on July 23, 2011


Via Pharyngula, more about his anti-feminism:

He identifies three main enemies of Western civilization: Islam, Marxism, and feminism. But don't you worry about feminism! He has a plan to cure it!

1. Limit the distribution of birth-control pills (contraceptive pills): Discourage the use of and prevent liberal distribution of contraceptive pills or equivalent prevention methods. The goal should be to make it considerably more difficult to obtain. This alone should increase the fertility rate by 0,1 points but would degrade women's rights.

2. Reform sex education: Reform the current sex education in our school institutions. This may involve limiting it or at least delaying sex education to a later age and discourage casual sex. Sex should only be encouraged within the boundaries of marriage. This alone should increase the fertility rate by 0,1 points.

3. Making abortion illegal: A re-introduction of the ban on abortion should result in an increased fertility rate of approximately 0,1-0,2 points but would strip women of basic rights.

4. Women and education: Discourage women in general to strive for full time careers. This will involve certain sexist and discriminating policies but should increase the fertility rate by up to 0,1-0,2 points.

Women should not be encouraged by society/media to take anything above a bachelor's degree but should not be prevented from taking a master or PhD. Males on the other hand should obviously continue to be encouraged to take higher education - bachelor, master and PhD.


He's like a walking murderous incarnation of Tea Party dreams.
posted by emjaybee at 7:24 PM on July 23, 2011 [23 favorites]


Incidentally, Freemasonry is only briefly mentioned in his book. He mentions that is a Christian-only organization and 'no Muslim or Jew could become a member even if they wanted to' - which is apparently the case in Swedish rite Masonry, which also applies in Norway.

Anyway, he says he was in it for 5 years and had the choice of rising to grade 4-5, but declined. He complains that they're not political, and later refers to them as decadent. The ritual initiations he lays out for the 'Knights Templar' organization he claims to represent bears little resemblance to any Masonic ones.

According to his narrative timeline - which is presumably full of deliberate misrepresentations - he became a 'knight' several years before joining the Freemasons. Perhaps he joined the latter organization in search of recruits, financial support, or in the belief that it would be full of elite types who were also closet bigots, as conspiracists have often suggested 'must' be the case. It appears that he was deeply disappointed and considered the Freemasons to be little more than play-actors while he and his fellow 'knights' were the real heirs of a noble tradition. But again, this is the work of a fundamentally unreliable narrator so we can't take anything he says at face value.
posted by anigbrowl at 7:25 PM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]


If anyone has the guts to read it, I "found" a PDF version of his '2083' book (1500+ pages). Link is here. The more I wade through the pages, the more horrifying all of it is.
This isn't your regular nutjob. This is way worse.
posted by _dario at 7:41 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


In Breivik's book: I know there is a 80%+ chance I am going to die during the operation as I have no intention to surrender to them until I have completed all three primary objectives AND the bonus mission. When I initiate (providing I haven't been apprehended before then), there is a 70% chance that I will complete the first objective, 40% for the second , 20% for the third and less than 5% chance that I will be able to complete the bonus mission. It is likely that I will pray to God for strength at one point during that operation, as I think most people in that situation would.

Huh. Seems like he "completed" 2 (bombing Oslo and mass murdering children) out of the 4 "objectives". Can't help wondering what the other two were and glad there was not even more horror.

Then he goes on to talk about the music for the mayhem: I will put my iPod on max volume as a tool to suppress fear if needed. I might just put Lux Aeterna by Clint Mansell on repeat as it is an incredibly powerful song.

Reminds me of Clockwork Orange and the sociopath who listened to Beethoven's Ninth.
posted by nickyskye at 7:45 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


The "bonus mission" ??? It sounds like it was some kind of game to him.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 7:50 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Well, I can only assume that one of those tasks was to kill the Prime Minister of Norway.
posted by RedEmma at 8:04 PM on July 23, 2011


I've dipped into a great deal of right-wing thought in the last number of years, in a "know thine enemy" sort of way, but I've never read anything like this-- the scope, the volume of misguided research, the fixity of purpose.

And then there's this, where it all obviously started to go wrong:
Feminism was conceived and birthed in the 1830s, in the generation experiencing the
first stage of the industrial revolution. Women, who for centuries had shared the challenges of surviving in an agrarian life, were becoming part of a middle-class gentry with more time and energy to spend writing newspaper articles and novels for their “sisters.” The initial stages of the feminisation of European culture had started.
posted by jokeefe at 8:08 PM on July 23, 2011


The AUF photostream on Flickr

You know. The people he fucking murdered.
posted by RedEmma at 8:15 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


If anyone has the guts to read it, I "found" a PDF version of his '2083' book (1500+ pages).

I feel dirty for downloading it. i want to destroy it but SHIFT+DELETE only goes so far.
posted by the noob at 8:17 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


#N2083 is the Twitter stream/hashtag re Breivik's book.
posted by nickyskye at 8:20 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I've just spent an our plowing through his obsessive, heavily copy-pasted, collection titled "2083 - A Declaration of European Independence."

In the past, I've read a lot of obscure American right-wing extremist writings. Compared to that stuff, Brievik is sane, level-headed, literate and coherent. That isn't saying much because skinhead writings make YouTube comments look like models of sophisticated high culture.

I'm not doing any deep textual analysis here, it's mostly impressions. But several of the impressions are quite strong.

1) most of the text is copy-pasted off the web, formatted and occasionally rewritten to make it look like Brievik's own work. In the introduction, he says he only wrote about half of it. I suspect it's even less than that. The section on explosives looks like it was lifted from some American skinhead/neo-nazi bomb-making manual. Some of the purely American references (Jeeps, hillbilly, UPS, FedEx, etc) weren't edited out.

2) His claim to be the head of an organization is grandiose fantasy. Check out the pictures at the very end of the manifesto. They look like some sort of costume/fetish fantasy, particularly the military uniform that looks like a send-up of The Prisoner of Zenda with death's head patches. My guess is that he was socially isolated but dependent on his mother for financial support. It's likely her in the last picture. I strongly doubt he had any accomplices and it is doubtful that he let anyone know what he was up to.

3) His "cultural Marxism" is entirely borrowed from American sources. Chip Berlet has a good analysis of this mainstreamed anti-semitism disguised as criticism of the Frankfurt school. This particular turd of right-wing pseudointellectualism is yet one more gift of Paul Weyrich, godfather of the American Right. So Brievik's ideology is mostly mainstreamed American extremism.

4) The parallels with Kaczynski, the Unabomber, are striking. The murders were committed to get publicity for a turgid manuscript. In this case, the manuscript includes a lot of information used to prepare for the bombings and murders.

My guess is that he fell down the rabbit-hole of his own fantasy life after being exposed to right wing ideology. The obsession started as a purely intellectual exercise, a fantasy. The Islamophobia is a projection of his internal demons into an enemy that serves as a "container" for his psychic poisons.

Over time, it became real and more compelling. Ultimately, once he started acting it out by getting costumes, weapons, explosives, the fantasy became a compulsion/obsession that he couldn't let go of. Once he started making the explosives, his identity became so wrapped up in the fantasy that he likely would have committed suicide as the only way not to continue. He turned his anger and hatred towards a mirror image from his past (I'm guessing he had some sort of crisis when he was in the right wing political youth organization) and used that as a focus for his destructive impulses.

The arrogance, grandiosity, social isolation and hatred are all very common among violent right-wing extremists. The murder-suicide compulsion is also very common. McVeigh, for instance, was suicidal just before he began his bombing plans. The murder/suicide angle was so common among white supremacists that the phrase "suicide by cop" was coined for it. See Ben Klassen and his Church of the Creator for a graphic example.

A cold fish.
posted by warbaby at 8:28 PM on July 23, 2011 [59 favorites]


That's right, jokeefe. It was all Jane Austen's fault. Gahhh!

I understand the compulsion to try to understand this guy. I do. I've been reading this crap all fucking day. But I really can't parse out all his years of bullshit "thought" when I'm trying to mourn people who counted more than he ever will. I will not give him anymore of my mental space. Not right now. He'll have to sit and rot in jail until I have the time.
posted by RedEmma at 8:31 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


warbaby, thank you for that analysis.
posted by emjaybee at 8:37 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm concerned with what right wing nutters here in the US will do with his "manifesto."

My thoughts are with you Norway. <3
posted by schyler523 at 8:38 PM on July 23, 2011


The "bonus mission" ??? It sounds like it was some kind of game to him.

It may have been. This links to a site with the same name as his claimed 'Knights Templar' organization...viewing the links (several of which are hidden - use developer tools in your browser if you really want to) point to a Dutch conspiracy site, a Bermudan private security company, the Trump website (?!), a trailer for a movie about hacking and surveillance and the information society due out this fall, a fictional<> military campaign map, and a website about John Titor (an underground cultural phenomenon.conspiracy theory involving time travel and a civil war in the US, sort of like Terminator fanfic). Also, searching on those initials I found multiple links to strategy game websites where people play on teams of the same name. An hour of trying to figure it out just gave me a headache - I can't tell whether it's disinformation, viral marketing that Brievik found amusing to mislead people with, or belwo-the-radar chitchat for the paranoid. If there is really an organized group of which Brievik was a part, I would imagine they use Freenet or some other non-public layer for operational communications. I can't really make sense of this in its current form and suspect I'm not meant to.
posted by anigbrowl at 8:54 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


What if you don't like Muslims and you don't like how many are in your Christian nation? Well you can make a law against practicing the Islamic faith and culture.

What if the Muslims don't follow the law and continue to practice their religion and culture in secret? Well, naturally you have to send them "back" to an Islamic country, even if they were born in this country.

What if they consider this their home and they refuse to go? Well, of course you have to force them. You have to resort to violence. And eventually you have to kill them and everyone who thinks that they deserve equal rights.

I support multiculturalism not because I believe other cultures are superior to my own, but because the alternative is to treat people not as human beings but as pieces of meat, just as Anders Behring Breivik has shown us.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:58 PM on July 23, 2011 [8 favorites]


Seconding your thoughts warbaby. Wonderful analysis.

The Islamophobia is a projection of his internal demons into an enemy that serves as a "container" for his psychic poisons.

Yes, well said.

Was also reminded of the Unabomber.

The last pic in the Breivik book. He and his mother and a sister?

Intriguing/ironic tweet: Why does the #N2083 manifesto so closely mimic the language of http://t.co/xHwIKmV [Al Qaeda Training Manual]
posted by nickyskye at 9:00 PM on July 23, 2011


I understand the urge to analyze the graphomania from this guy, because we want to understand what drives a person like this, so that hopefully measures can be develop to detect, contain and perhaps disarm. But I'm afraid that looking at it from an ideological point of view is misguided. I'm sure the writing here can be analyzed usefully by a psychiatrist or a security investigator. But trying to make heads or tails of it based on ideology is as useless as trying to divine a coherent worldview from the rantings of psychotic. Such writings are incoherent. Completely. So trying to make sense of them is hopeless. It can show us alienation, confusion, anger, fear - but not ideology. This is a certain class of writing. Which doesn't mean guys like this cannot be extremely dangerous and actually come across as charismatic. Have you ever tried to read Mein Kampf? It's many things, but a coherent ideology it is not. It provides insight into his mind, but does not provide an illumination of the world. To me, this Breivik's writings are of the same kind - more mixed up than a dog's breakfast, it tells us who he is, but tells us nothing about the world.
posted by VikingSword at 9:02 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


From anigbrowl's link, I went to the designer of the website, and there's a graphic that shows the US with a mushroom cloud over Texas. Any idea where this came from?
posted by desjardins at 9:04 PM on July 23, 2011


Never mind, found it. Here's the Flash map with their plans (?) for war in the US. WTF.
posted by desjardins at 9:11 PM on July 23, 2011


He's a birther.

Less than eight years after the Jihadist attacks on the USA, a
President raised as a Muslim with the middle name “Hussein”
hails Islam’s great contributions to American and Western
culture. The USA currently looks more like a defeated nation
than the world’s sole remaining superpower. It’s the only nation
in history where the majority of the population has elected a
member of an organisation known for hating the majority
population of that country.


From my skimming he really sounds like the American right wing blogosphere had some serious influence on him even though he was focused on the fate of Europe.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:17 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


the ArtAnts page, translated:
Of Pauperes Commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici ArtAnts was commissioned to restyle a centuries old logo and star in a new corporate identity. In addition, we also commissioned a special web project development. Ultimately succeeded in a concept that dates from 1119 AD to perform a contemporary (2011) digital project with a message similar to that of the original concept from the Middle Ages.
posted by waterunderground at 9:20 PM on July 23, 2011


That can't be a serious thing, desjardins. Can it?
posted by ob1quixote at 9:21 PM on July 23, 2011


furiousxgeorge, if you google your quote it is taken from this. It's entitled The Self- Defeat of the United States.
posted by ltracey at 9:22 PM on July 23, 2011


I would like to reiterate that I do not think any of that stuff should be taken at face value, but more likely some sort of elaborate viral marketing trollery. There happened to be a number of extremely unfortunately coincidences in the wake of 9/11, like an album cover showing explosions in New York and stuff like that. As pointed out upthread, 'secret history' is a frequent trope of popular entertainment. I was into super-secret Knights Templar conspiracy theories when I was a teenager and thanks to people like Dan Brown that stuff is more mainstream than ever. So it may only be relevant as a pointer to Brievik's fantasy world or the sources of his 'inspiration'.
posted by anigbrowl at 9:25 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


By which I mean, that's for a game or something, isn't it? They can't seriously think they're going to use a nuclear bomb to unleash a volcanic eruption in California, etc., put up an interactive flash map to their plans, and nobody will notice, can they?
posted by ob1quixote at 9:25 PM on July 23, 2011


Intriguing/ironic tweet: Why does the #N2083 manifesto so closely mimic the language of http://t.co/xHwIKmV [Al Qaeda Training Manual]

From what I read from second hand sources (dont wnat to read the manifesto myself), the manifesto is fairly explicit that the Templars should learn from Al-Q (because even though they're at war with Islam, Al-Q is admired as successful militant org), including organization, discipline , strategy and tactics. One of the tweets I saw noted that the initial bombing then followed by shooting up a soft target on the other side of town is a classic Al-Q in Iraq terror plan
posted by Bwithh at 9:25 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the whole thing seems copy and pasted but I'm assuming he agrees with what he pasted.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:26 PM on July 23, 2011


ob1quixote - apparently the PDF of his manifesto was up before the shootings/bombing, and it was pretty clear what he was doing, so who knows. Seems really brazen. But yeah, the map stretches credibility just a tad.
posted by desjardins at 9:28 PM on July 23, 2011


The PCCTS website is fantasy. For example, Carips is obviously not a real company.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:30 PM on July 23, 2011


Also note that that that website caught the attention of a fringe forum back in February-March, who devoted 15 pages to discussing it: http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1348655/pg1

There's a suggestion somewhere in that threadmess that there's some kind of link between ArtAnts and freemasons in Netherlands or in St. Maarten, but the weblinks offered are dead.
posted by waterunderground at 9:33 PM on July 23, 2011


A large percentage of American spree killers are attracted to right-wing ideology. I don't think this says much about the ideology other than it somehow reflects the interior landscape of many of the people who act this way. That should be a scary thought, but it keeps getting normalized away. Just because a deeply pathological worldview is widely shared doesn't make it healthy.

James Aho was the first person I read who pointed out the amazingly high percentage of spree killers who were drawn to right wing ideology. He later wrote a very good book, This Thing of Darkness: A Sociology of The Enemy, which delves very deep into analyzing hatred and scapegoating.

Dave Neiwert's book, The Eliminationists: How Hate Talk Radicalized the American Right, is also very good on the transmission of scapegoating memes into mainstream culture.

Devin Burghart is always worth paying attention to. Note that he wrote this piece at 11pm PDST on Friday.

The more I look into this case, the more I'm disturbed by how this looks like an American spree killer. Fifteen years ago, europeans looked at our "lone wolf" right-wing spree killers as a uniquely American aberration. More blowback from our incredibly fucked up Global War on Terror.

Thank goodness Norway is a civilized country that has abolished the death penalty. I have a great deal of faith the Norwegians will deal with this horrible tragedy in an enlightened and humane way.
posted by warbaby at 9:38 PM on July 23, 2011 [20 favorites]


The DC Snipers and Colin Ferguson were most definitely not right-wing.

They were, however, nuts. Completely insane. This is the larger issue - inadequate early diagnosis and care for the mentally ill.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:44 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Somehow just learned of this and have no words.

.
posted by Songdog at 10:12 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


I didn't say all, I said many. John Muhammed was a member of Nation of Islam, which many regard as a fascist group.

My point is that it is far more likely that the personalities of spree killers are attracted to right-wing authoritarian ideologies than that the ideologies creates the personality.

I agree fully that this is an unhealthy behavior, what Reich called an "emotional plague." I am reluctant to medicalize it, however. It think the behavior operates partly as a cultural construct. Certainly, there exists some areas of human society where it would be regarded as normative. That not the same thing as healthy.

I'd prefer to use an analogy to public health and hygiene than to take the more limited clinical approach.
posted by warbaby at 10:17 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


Thinking about the 2083 number and what it could refer to in Breivik's mindset, came across this Lacoste ad, called future clothes in the year 2083, which seemed in keeping with this kook's Starship Troopers, gaming costume fetish weirdness.

Anybody got any idea to what the 2083 book title might refer?

Poignant expression of sympathy on the condolence page at NRK.
posted by nickyskye at 10:35 PM on July 23, 2011


1683 was the battle of vienna. Most likely an allusion to that.
posted by ollyollyoxenfree at 10:36 PM on July 23, 2011 [3 favorites]


I've noticed several Islamist terrorist plots foiled by various European police forces over the last decade, compared to almost none in the U.S., i.e. European cops don't abandon doing their job to chase anti-terrorism money for buying a mobile command center.

You'll almost surely unearth more right-wing plots if you direct more of that effort towards monitoring other hate groups, including American hate groups, like the Tea party.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:45 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


From his insane compendium, an interview with himself:
Q: Violent Muslim gangs in European cities are not exactly a new phenomenon. We hear about indigenous European youths getting harassed, beaten, raped and robbed quite often. Tell us about your experiences during your “vulnerable years”(14-18) growing up in the urban multicultural streets of Oslo.
A: Since I was 12 years old I was into the hip-hop movement. For several years I was one of the most notable “hip-hop’ers” from Oslo’s West side. It was a lot easier to “gain respect and credibility” in Oslo West because of the demographic factors. Oslo West was the “privileged and predominantly native side” of Oslo with very few immigrants in contrast to the East side which was less peaceful. Graffiti and break dance was an important part of our life at that point. Around 1993 and 1994, at 15, I was the most active tagger (grafitti artist) in Oslo as several people in the old school hip-hop community can attest to.
...

In a section right after describing how he had apparently been assaulted by Muslims in 8 different incidents as a youth...
People reading this might ask if I contributed in any way to the above conflicts. The answer is no (with only one exception, when I replied to the girl). As all my friends can attest to I wouldn’t be willing to hurt a fly and I have never used violence against others. Also, me and my friends were quite fit and self confident during this phase because we worked out a lot. This acted as a deterrent so we were rarely targeted by Muslims. If we wanted to we could have harassed and beaten up dozens of Muslim youth. However, as we didn’t share their savage mentality, violence was pointless. We therefore avoided confrontations as often as humanly possible.
...

And then there's this:
Q: Can you describe your strengths and flaws as an individual?
A: I’m an extremely patient and a very positively minded individual. I have obviously changed my ways over the years and am now driven by idealistic goals and work for the interests of my countrymen and all Europeans. Most people would not acknowledge the work yet (nor are they likely to appreciate it during my lifetime) but this is an irrelevant fact for me. With time they will understand what is going on around them and that what we are trying to accomplish will benefit not only them, but most importantly their children and grandchildren.
As for current flaws in my personality I guess have many stereotypical flaws. F example; I sound quite self righteous at times and I don’t like admitting it when I’m wrong, although I usually do. I still have a relatively inflated ego, with a constant need to feed on an intellectual level. This is a quite common flaw and I try to suppress it although I know I fail as most people do. Also, over the years I’ve generally been perceived as quite arrogant (even downright unpleasant at times, the last few years). This is likely due to the fact that I do not care as much as I did for creating or preserving social relationships due to my life choice. I guess it is also due the way I choose my rhetorical approaches, which is to a certain degree only an indirect defensive mechanism. I, as most people, like to think I have a superb self confidence. But people who show signs of arrogance usually often use deliberate defensive manifestation to camouflage intellectual or social insecurity or perhaps they just don’t care.
That answer then goes on and on, stretching to forever. His self-absorption was total.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:47 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Oh, and there's also this, about his WoW habit:
I took a year off when I was 25 and played WoW PvE hardcore for a year.
Conservatism - Alliance, human female mage – PvE, Server: Silvermoon Conservative - Horde, tauren female resto druid – PvP, Server: Silvermoon
I raided hardcore and was a guild leader in a couple of hardcore guilds: Virtue, then Unit, Nordrassil – Rank 1 Alliance PvE. We transferred the guild to Silvermoon. I grew tired of running the guild and sorting recruitment issues so I joined Nevermore, another hardcore guild on Silvermoon (Rank 3). Silvermoon is the most progressed Alliance server in the world out of more than 300 servers (10 million + players worldwide) so the competition is extremely hard. This means we were one of the most progressed guilds in the world at one time. I can honestly say running a hardcore WoW guild is equally challenging to running your own business with 7 employees or more. It requires an extreme amount of work in order to be successful and get server first kills. It was a good experience and something I wanted to do at least a limited amount of time during a period of my life.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:51 PM on July 23, 2011


iviken, I really really doubt anyone has ever seriously used "melon farmer" to describe a talented shooter. "Melon farmer" is used to censor "motherfucker" in movies shown on TV. One of the most famous examples is in Die Hard, where "Yippee Ki-yay, motherfucker" bizarrely becomes "Yippee ki-yay, melon farmer". I suspect that urbandictionary definition is a reference to that, possibly as filtered through multiplayer FPS videogame lexicon. I doubt this guy added melons to his farm description as a shoutout to the TV version of Die Hard.

Its a stretch, but the Charles Bronson film 'Mr Majestyk' starred Bronson has a melon farmer out for revenge.

.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:54 PM on July 23, 2011


What is the Norwegian state - ANY state going to do to prevent future attacks such as this?
In Australia, we used a similar event to confiscate (with compensation) all high caliber semi-auto rifles, make access to pistols very difficult, and made owning small caliber rifles and shotguns a difficult and costly hobby. This resulted in substantially lower total numbers of firearms, and dramatically lower numbers of assault rifles etc. I understand other nations will have political objections to such an approach, but on the whole, it is working out for us.
posted by bystander at 11:03 PM on July 23, 2011 [2 favorites]


Having dug through the internet Illuminati fan crazy for far too long, that PCCTS site appears to be connected to this forum: http://www.quofataferunt.com/

And appears from this thread to be some kind of goofy game the forum administrator has been playing on other more earnest parts of the online lunatic fringe: http://www.quofataferunt.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=997:de-qff-illuminati-card
posted by waterunderground at 11:06 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]




They've suspended his accounts, and his toons aren't available in the armory but he had both toons to 85, so hes been playing at least through the last xpac (6 months). Here's a search for his mage, with some forum activity as this info comes to light.

His druid.


Some salient discussion
- knowing Blizzard's draconian forum mods, it probably won't last long.

Here's his repsonse to a complaint about queue times to log into the server : "47 min queue. Please forcefully relocate the "want to play 1 week every expansion" ppl. Thanks!"
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:23 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]



This one is pretty... something
:
Alternatively, you should allow the forming of 2 professional servers in Europe (one PvP, one PvE) where the GMs of the 10 most progressed guilds make essential server policies.

And dont phase out 25 man plx by making 10 man loot equal to 25 man loot. Current policies=Marxism. Suggested policies=Conservatism<3

posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:28 PM on July 23, 2011


I wonder if social isolation is as much a factor as idealogy. It lets strange ideas curdle and rot in a person's head without outside contact to check them. I don't want to suggest that playing that much WoW is evidence of isolation, but it could be a clue.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:47 PM on July 23, 2011


Thinking about the 2083 number and what it could refer to in Breivik's mindset, came across this Lacoste ad, called future clothes in the year 2083, which seemed in keeping with this kook's Starship Troopers, gaming costume fetish weirdness.

Anybody got any idea to what the 2083 book title might refer?


Poignant expression of sympathy on the condolence page at NRK.
posted by nickyskye at 1:35 AM on July 24 [+] [!]

A. think of obscure half-baked catalog of hate (probably read 10 pages of) and a number. This being 2083.

B. Google 2083 and find first link-clothes yahooishness.

C. Correlate said clothing into the pictures you have seenof his odd appearing uniform(s) to you. ( aveiled referent to masonic regalia would be crass, so I will omit that like the number 32 and his age and some nonsense about the 32 degree and some corollary of the deluded killer. You failed to mention the 33 degree but that is Scottish Rite, what rite did you quote again...oh, my)

D. end by giving support again (a Pattern in most of the posts) to Norway and the community or similar vein reinterating thanks to those who support you.

I thought of memailing you this, really I did because of respect but I will speak my mind because the only thing of any comfort is what those may have wished for the world when they were gone which makes that sentiment all the more painful because they majority were children.

but to answer your question and save you an askme chit this week;
Judge Dredd, the second american civil war. based on my seeing his facebook page and his liking WOWC as i saw the page disappear into a void on refresh.

Your analysis of Pol Pot was wrong, shall I eleborate, do your own research.
Pol Pot as a narssistist is like saying ghenis khan had communication issues. He was the opposite, a phantom and tried to supress his ties to court, though I give latittude to his image when he went public, you remember, brother number 1# talks to western jouranalists, decrys agricultural success....hmmm.
(I swear it's like fending off a chorus of "Send in the Noams".)
posted by clavdivs at 11:55 PM on July 23, 2011 [4 favorites]


Just noticed that I was misidentified as Norwegian earlier in the thread. To clarify - my heart goes out to Norwegians after this madness, even though I'm not Norwegian. (I understand Norwegian and have posted translations and untranslated Norwegian links - that caused the confusion.)

Keep sending all your love to the actual Norwegian Mefi-ites. This is really getting more and more horrible as we see more of what was going on in the killer's head. Yikes, yikes, yikes.
posted by Wylla at 11:58 PM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


English update from Norwegian newspaper VG: Anders Behring Breivik (32) pleaded guilty of massacre
posted by Harald74 at 12:00 AM on July 24, 2011



Well, thing is - his claims about being a top wow player are.... well, they look like bullshit.

Here's Nevermore of Silvermoon's wowprogress page 6/7 in the current tier, which aint nothin, but but is only good for a 4200 rating in Europe and 32 on the realm. They were ranked 81 in the last tier.

Here is his wowprogress page for his mage - the last update was last january, and he doesn't seem to be very progressed at all.

Here is the Wowprogress for his last guild Goosfraba. Ranked at 3600 in EU and 25 on the realm.

Again, it aint nothin, but hell, I was in a world top 200 guild during Wrath. He was in a world 7300 guild.

Point I'm tyring to make - the dude is a bullshitter.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:03 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


"What is it with the year 2083?"
posted by iviken at 12:07 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Can you explain this in English for those of us who have never played WoW?
posted by anigbrowl at 12:08 AM on July 24, 2011


He claims to have led a worldwide top guild (it is extremely competitive at the top) but apparently did not. 6/7 meaning six of seven bosses killed in the most recent released content.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:10 AM on July 24, 2011


Well, thing is - his claims about being a top wow player are.... well, they look like bullshit.

And let’s also not forget – let’s not forget, Dude, that keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know, within the city – that isn’t legal either.
posted by dialetheia at 12:19 AM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Can you explain this in English for those of us who have never played WoW?

It's pretty simple. Guilds are ranked based on time of boss kills for a given raid tier. The first to beat a boss is ranked #1 and so on. This extends out from Realm (Silvermoon), Zone (EU) and world. Hardmode/heroic and achievement kills are ranked higher, and again, being first is of real importance. The current tier is Tier 12, and is the second tier of the current expansion - Cataclysm. It doesn't seem like he has done any raiding in the current expansion (tiers 11 and 12).

So for example, Goosfraba was ranked #2 and #9 in Europe for the Rotface and Festergut fights of the ICC raid (tier 10) - but the last boss of that release, Putricide - they ranked at 6832. As the first two were relatively easy fights, they likely scored that by just logging in first and getting there fast- as evidenced by the painfully average ranking on the last boss.

He was most active at this time - he joined the guild during the last expac - Wrath of the Lich King - and raided mostly the last tiers of that expansion; Tier 9 and 10.

Now - when it comes to these reports..... they aren't super accurate. It's possible to fudge the logs and so on to fake the reporting. But nobody would ever forge them to make themselves look worse. Also, reporting can be kind of spotty - it's based on when someone does an update with some (loose) verification of dates based on a wowarmory search.

That said, you can get a rough idea of what someone's history is. Further verification would come from log parses on sites like world of logs or wow meters online. However, of the parses they have, he doesn't seem to be in any of them - but they don't retain them for very long typically.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:35 AM on July 24, 2011


Regarding the 2083 thing, Obama became President in 2008 (well, technically, he didn't actually assume the office until January 2009, but he won the election in 2008). 2083 is 75 years into the future from 2008. 75 years into the past is 1933, the year the Enabling Act gave Hitler dictatorial powers over Germany. Seeing as the bizarro-worlders all think Obama is a Marxist dictator and that Nazis and Marxists are the same thing, the symmetry would seem irresistible. As warbaby says, there's a very American flavor to his materials and that video had lots of negative references to Obama. One imagines Brievik doesn't think much of the Nobel peace prize to begin with, and certainly didn't approve of it being awarded to Obama just for the fact of not being George Bush.

Totally a hunch on my part, however - maybe there's some other explanation in his book that I haven't seen yet. I was too depressed by the crazy stuff I had read so far and decided to count my familial blessings for a while instead.

Pogo, thanks for the explanation. I used to play Eve but as you probably know that's much more about building and warfare between players - there aren't really any bosses as such, computer-controlled ships are just another sort of grind.
posted by anigbrowl at 12:53 AM on July 24, 2011



3.10 Assimilation policy/demands/offer for Muslim individuals living in Europe (this offer will expire on Jan 1st, 2020)


Well fucker - on the morning of January 1st, 2020 you will be lying on your bed waiting for the slop that's served to you for breakfast. Not for the first time you will look up at the humming neon tubes above your bed - and wonder how many Muslim individuals living in Europe have failed to be assimilated.

But my guess is that you won't. One day will be like the next, and soon dates will hold no meaning for you. Live long.
posted by the noob at 1:26 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


English update from Norwegian newspaper VG: Anders Behring Breivik (32) pleaded guilty of massacre

Is this an error? The link says that he's pleaded not guilty.
posted by Anything at 1:40 AM on July 24, 2011


I'm sure the writing here can be analyzed usefully by a psychiatrist or a security investigator. But trying to make heads or tails of it based on ideology is as useless as trying to divine a coherent worldview from the rantings of psychotic. Such writings are incoherent. Completely. So trying to make sense of them is hopeless. It can show us alienation, confusion, anger, fear - but not ideology.

I very respectfully disagree. It would be a big mistake to view his motivations only from a psychiatric point of view, and one that the intelligence services and police authorities are not likely going to make, because they will need to track down all possible connections this killer, no, this terrorist had (because what he did is still terrorism, no matter if he did it all alone or as part of a group), and in general revise their approach to far-right extremists after this to include this kind of development which is not your classic neonazi/neofascist extremism – many analysts have been pointing this out already.

It is about political ideology, that's what makes it already a degree of worse than a lone nut, and what's worse, it comes out of a very precise area of political ideology that is not limited to him or other supposedly lone nuts, unfortunately. The writing in his 'book' is chilling in itself for reasons others have pointed out already -- but even more so because it's packed FULL with lots of stuff that is lifted directly out of recent and current ultraconservative/theocon ideological discourse, and not just the kind that stays confined in extremist blogs and forums but the kind that has been instrumentally exploited by some political movements in Europe, all that talk of Islam destroying European culture, the demographic explosion, the Christian identity of Europe, Eurabia, etc etc, very chillingly familiar.

So it's extra chilling because:

- this stuff is not fringe ideological talk confined to far right extremists, it has leaked into mainstream media and mainstream politics, maybe in a marginal way but still worryingly

- this is not classical neo-nazi stuff, he was not part of some existing organised far-right movement, and this is worrying at the level of law enforcement and intelligence and security, that is one of the reasons he got away with preparing such an elaborate plan, he did not belong to any known far right movements already under watch by local and European police and intelligence

Europe has seen far-right terrorism before (70's and 80's Italy for instance) but it was organised groups with a very clear claim to a political role. Now, the talk in the 'book' of networks of other fanatics involved in the wider project may all be self-aggrandizing and turn out to be untrue. Hopefully. But the sheer familiarity of the kind of material contained in that book makes it legitimate to suspect there may be a new kind of far-right extremism breeding.

At individual level, you can indeed argue terrorists are a mix of extreme ideology and some level of individual psychosis. It takes some level of psychosis to get into such extreme ideologies in the first place, and it takes a BIG extra step to go from even the most extreme fanaticism to actual acts of murder and terrorism. But authorities do need to monitor known extremist individuals and groups even when they haven't committed any acts yet. That's the point of security investigation, isn't it?

And then in general at political, social and media level, there needs to be a lot more attention and discussion about the spreading of this kind of ideological discourse, the ideological context in which such ideas fester, clearly the effects of the recent far-right anti-Muslim sentiment have been underestimated.

Also, this does not seem to me to be disrespectful to the victims at all. They were targeted because of their political involvement. Young people who had a commitment to be politically active in their society, to be engaged, to meet and discuss political and social issues, in a peaceful setting, with peaceful aims, civilly and respectfully -- if anything, even aside from the usefulness for authorities to analyse the ideological background of this terrorist, even aside from the political need to deal with this kind of far-right extremism in more effective ways, it would be a disservice to their memory to forget that they became targets precisely because they represent the OPPOSITE of the hateful ideology that's condensed in those chilling pages.

Sheer lunacy may have been the individual extra trigger for the terrorist attack, but the political context and influences cannot be underestimated. That's a mistake all of Europe cannot afford to make now.
posted by bitteschoen at 1:54 AM on July 24, 2011 [26 favorites]


This PDF is actually pretty moronic. I'm only two pages in and there's mind-boggling wrongness. For example:

But what exactly is “Political Correctness?” Marxists have used the term for at least 80 years, as a broad synonym for “the General Line of the Party.” It could be said that Political Correctness is the General Line of the Establishment in Western European
countries today;
Obviously political correctness is a epithet developed by conservatives use to describe attempts (perhaps overzealous in some cases) by liberals to get rid of racism/sexism by casting those attempts in an orwellian light.

Then on the next page we get this:
If a man of the 1950s were suddenly introduced into Western Europe in the 2000s, he would hardly recognise it as the same country. He would be in immediate danger of getting mugged, carjacked or worse, because he would not have learned to live in constant fear. He would not know that he shouldn’t go into certain parts of the city, that
his car must not only be locked but equipped with an alarm, that he dare not go to sleep
at night without locking the windows and bolting the doors – and setting the electronic
security system.
5-10 years after the end of WWII? Did the average European man even have a car? As I recall there was a ton of political instability, the establishment of the iron curtain, etc. He seems to have imported the 1950s ideal from the U.S to Europe, where it didn't really exist (and really how does it even make sense to talk about a conceptual 'Europe' in that decade? it was a continent, not a country, there was nothing like the EU)
posted by delmoi at 1:54 AM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Hi everyone, thank you for your support. I'm norwegian and far away from Norway right now, too far way and a bit more lonely than intended, the world suddenly turned very bad. Reading news and talking to people at home is confusing and sad, thankfully all mine is ok, only shocked. In this confusement, reading this thread is very comforting, all your support and adult comments, trying to make sense, understand, and respect, it helps that one part of the world has it's wit and wisdom intact. Thanks for having a sensible place to turn to, thank you very much.

My heart goes out to the lost ones, and those who lost them.
posted by gmm at 2:04 AM on July 24, 2011 [27 favorites]


Don't waste your time trying to interpret it objectively. It's aimed at paranoid xenophobes; you and I are not the target audience.
posted by anigbrowl at 2:07 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


knapah writes "If it was an ammonium nitrate bomb, then they're not that hard to make, even by a single person. You just need fuel and fertiliser. We've seen that enough here in Northern Ireland."

You need a detonator too which is the harder part procurement wise.

Harald74 writes "speculations on the firearms used. Eye witnesses report that he was firing one shot every ten seconds or so. When the press reports something as an 'automatic' weapon, more often than not a semi-automatic was involved (i.e. one shot per pull of the trigger, not a stream of bullets). The firing rate displayed can also be sustained with a manual repeating or even single shot firearm."

With some practice and the right action a talented person can manage 20+ aimed shots per minute with a manual bolt action rifle. 15 shots is possible for most. Of special note is M67's comment in that link detailing a speed shooting competition performed in Norway. Fatigue is a problem if you sustain that rate for more than a few minutes however 100+ shots over ~45 minutes would be manageable for someone in decent shape. After all that's only an average of slightly more than 2 shots per minute. The common freak out over automatic weapons (which are usually semi automatic) is unwarranted when it comes to a dedicated individual such as appears to be the case here.

And your standard hunting rifle is firing an expanding bullet that does more damage than the full metal jacket bullets that assault rifles are designed for (though of course one isn't forced to use FMJs).
posted by Mitheral at 2:08 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


delmoi - it's the kind of mind-boggingly wrongness that's been propagated far and wide in recent years, including through bestsellers - see if this Independent editorial from 2006 is not tragically relevant today (linked from the wikipedia page on the "Eurabia" concept):
It's not just those panicked passengers who have crossed this line. There are intellectuals on the British right who are propagating a conspiracy theory about Muslims that teeters very close to being a 21st century Protocols of the Elders of Mecca. Meet Bat Ye'or, a "scholar" who argues that Europe is on the brink of being transformed into a conquered continent called "Eurabia".

In this new land, Christians and Jews will be reduced by the new Muslim majority to the status of "dhimmis" - second-class citizens forced to "walk in the gutter". This will not happen by accident. It is part of a deliberate and "occult" plan, concocted between the Arab League and leading European politicians like Jacques Chirac and Mary Robinson, who secretly love Islam and are deliberately flooding the continent with Muslim immigrants. As Orianna Fallacci - one of the best-selling writers in Italy - has summarised the thesis in her hymns of praise to Ye'or, "Muslims have been told to come here and breed like rats."

Rather than dismissing her preposterous assertions, high-profile writers like Melanie Phillips, Daniel Pipes and Niall Ferguson laud Ye'or as a suppressed hero, silenced by (you guessed it) "political correctness". Her name is brandished as a gold standard in right-wing Tory circles. It's interesting that writers so alert to anti-Semitism have lent their names to an ideology that is so startlingly similar. In this theory, the Star of David has simply been replaced by the Islamic crescent. If the term has any meaning, this is authentic Islamophobia, treating virtually all Muslims as verminous sharia-carriers. So why are these people still treated as serious and sane by the BBC and its editors?
posted by bitteschoen at 2:09 AM on July 24, 2011 [10 favorites]


The thing that chills me the most is that this fucker was willing to kill a hundred people for a "marketing campaign" for his PDF.
posted by bigbigdog at 2:09 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


From the Guardian's translation of his lawyer's release:
He admitted responsibility. He feels that it was cruel to have to carry out these acts but that, in his head, it was necessary.

He has said that he believed the actions were atrocious, but that in his head they were necessary.

He's stated that he went to Utøya [where 700 youths in the age of 15-25 were gathered] to give the Labour party a warning that 'doomsday would be imminent' unless the party changed its policies,.

He wanted to hurt the Labour party and halt its recruitment in the worst possible way, referring to party members as marxists.

I think he's realised what he's done, and he views himself as sane. He's told me that he surrendered to Delta [Norwegian special forces].

He wanted to open doors [by committing these crimes]. He will explain the background of his actions and why he actually did it for media.

He sits on a lot of hatred for many people, which incorporates most significant societal institutions.

He says that there was no other way. He had tried all possible alternatives.He felt that his actions were gruesome, but necessary.
This is pretty much where mainstreaming of extremist politics gets you.
posted by rodgerd at 2:31 AM on July 24, 2011 [10 favorites]


Oh boy, I've gone through the Spanish hard right websites today, and they can't get enough of that Freemason stuff. Due to a two-centuries old conflict between the Catholic Church and Freemasonry, the latter is generally perceived as strongly anticlerical, if not outright Satanic, in Catholic Europe and has always been a bugbear of the local far right. The "judeomasonic plot" was regularly blamed for all of Spain's ills by the Franco regime. The idea that someone may be a fundamentalist Christian and a Freemason at the same time is proving too much for some to wrap their heads around.
posted by Skeptic at 2:32 AM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


It's late to be pointing this out, but: anyone can google. It's not difficult to splash ideas around from the firehose of information spewing out of major catastrophes like this. What's far more difficult, and necessary for intelligent conversation that respects the loss suffered here, is discernment. Not flinging around half-baked assertions based on whatever happens to be today's top hit for a search term -- not confidently diagnosing a criminal whose existence we were wholly unaware of 48 hours ago with a psychological malady du jour -- not giving a transcript of events the same weight as the natterings of a fringe site.

Adding to the sense of dread and disgust an act like this inspires is seeing just how badly munged so much world journalism is -- the immediate leap to pin blame on the very group Breivik wants cleansed from his peaceful, civilized nation. Or reading vile pundits like Abigail Essman who have already figured out how to pin blame there anyway. That's what happens when facts are treated with such contempt; the world grows a little more violent and stupid. For the love of all things humanist -- of all things Brievik despised -- if you have facts, speak them. If you have ill-informed idle speculation, save it. There's a cold ocean of it enough already.
posted by melissa may at 3:00 AM on July 24, 2011 [24 favorites]


Abigail Essman was already on that horse, her book seems aimed squarely at engendering (and monetizing one assumes) the paranoia and hatred related to the 'Eurabia' bogeyman. There's a review here that makes for pretty sickening reading. To quote a particularly salient part:
A guilt-ridden Europe has paid a dear price for its colonial transgressions: it let in 20 million Muslims, carriers of a civilization so alien to the West that it constitutes a clear and present danger to its very survival. Radicalism, militancy, fanaticism, anti-individualism, misogynism, and anti-Western sentiments are rife among these aliens and immigrants. It is nothing short of a fifth column and a backdoor to the great centers of Western power, such as the USA. Muslims make suave use of Western civil rights and reflexive multiculturalism and political correctness to further their agenda: a hostile takeover, not an amicable merger.
She seems to be pretty mainstream as well, been published in: The Economist, Forbes, Vogue, The Wall Street Journal, The New Republic....

Terrorism (especially the individually perpetrated sort) doesn't necessarily need a support structure (include intellectual and 'in-group') to come into being. But it's hard to conceive that there is no connection between the pen and the sword in this case.
posted by titus-g at 3:16 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


I wonder if social isolation is as much a factor as idealogy. It lets strange ideas curdle and rot in a person's head without outside contact to check them.

And it can do a number on a person's self-esteem, leading them to invent superiority/victimhood fantasies to prop themselves up -- would seem very relevant here.
posted by LordSludge at 3:18 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


The thing that chills me the most is that this fucker was willing to kill a hundred people for a "marketing campaign" for his PDF.

It worked. I wonder if part of it might be that if someone dosen't have anything else in their life they think they can reach for one shot at fame/infamy by doing something like this. People still remember the names of the Columbine killers...

But that's my theory - that this person would have found some idealogy to attach it to because he was that broken. If he didn't get sucked in by right-wing politics he could easily enough have killed 'for the Horde!' or 'for the Alliance!' or for the Masons or the Templers or whatever. That dosen't make him a Mason any more than it makes him an orc. OTOH widespread right-wing hate is an issue because it can draw these people to it and convince them that whatever problems they have are external, and giving them an easy enemy.

Even with al that, though, I can't concieve of a mind that targets children, individually. People might say something about the desensitizing effects of videogames, but even in a game I can't imagine doing that.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:33 AM on July 24, 2011


> Pol Pot as a narssistist is like saying ghenis khan had communication issues.

Pol Pot, sociopath (malignant narcissist).

> syndromes of the "malignant narcissism" that seems to be characteristic of the infamous dictators of history"

"What is it with the year 2083?"

Thanks iviken for that article. Huh, so Breivik's email address was year2083@gmail.com. Seems like he really identified with the year, not just as the title of his book. Was surprised the author linked that same Lacoste ad. Interested to know about AD2083.

Suspect Behind Norwegian Attacks Claims He Used Modern Warfare 2 for Training: It's truly an unfortunate circumstance for any advocate of the gaming industry should the media decide to ignore the entire story and focus on labeling Breivik as a gamer first, sociopath second.
posted by nickyskye at 5:49 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


Thanks iviken for that article. Huh, so Breivik's email address was year2083@gmail.com. Seems like he really identified with the year, not just as the title of his book. Was surprised the author linked that same Lacoste ad. Interested to know about AD2083.

Please stop playing detective. 2083 has nothing to do with a Lacoste ad. The shooter stated that it was a reference to the Battle of Vienna. It is a consistent worldview in which Muslims seek to take over Europe and Europe fights back.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:53 AM on July 24, 2011


Please stop playing detective.

Why am I not permitted to be curious? Who made you Google police officer? A large percent of the planet must be curious about this monster, like the author of that article, who referenced the Lacoste ad.

I was curious about 2083 and why the shooter, as you refer to a mass murderer/terrorist bomber (who also murdered - not by shooting- 7 people in the Oslo blast) used the number. That's why I asked the question here.

Are you saying that Breivik referenced the Battle of Vienna, which took place on 11 and 12 of September 1683 in his book as the reason he used the number 2083 as its title? That would mean you Googled Breivik's book and looked that information up. Huh. So you're allowed to be curious and find out about 2083 and that's ok, but I'm not allowed to do the same thing?

So, after Googling Battle of Vienna and 2083 I came across the explanation in this Telegraph article:

We've uncovered Breivik's reasoning behind titling his manifesto '2083'.

The date will mark 400 years since the Battle of Vienna. As he explains in the document:

John III Sobieski and the Holy League successfully defended Europe against an army of more than 150 000 Muslims at the Battle of Vienna.

New European cultural conservative Independence Day should be celebrated on September 11th or 12th marking the successful defence of Western Europe by the Holy League. The Battle of Vienna in 1683 should be celebrated as the Independence Day for all Western Europeans as it was the beginning of the end for the second Islamic wave of Jihads.

posted by nickyskye at 6:23 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


It must also be said that one of the main Islamophobic blogs, and one which Breivik used to frequent, is called "Gates of Vienna". 1683 is quite an important date for that political fringe (French xenophobes are more likely to refer to Charles Martel and the Battle of Poitiers). Breivik's obsession with the Knights Templar is also consistent with the whole anti-Islamic theme: after all, the Knights Templar were founded to defend Jerusalem from the Muslims (after having slaughtered all the Muslims that were in Jerusalem).
posted by Skeptic at 6:54 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Maybe this isn't the best place for an argument?
posted by knapah at 7:08 AM on July 24, 2011 [4 favorites]


Please stop playing detective. 2083 has nothing to do with a Lacoste ad.

He wears a Lacoste sweater, with the logo quite visible, in the photo he put up on his Facebook profile.
posted by iviken at 7:15 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


He wears a Lacoste sweater, with the logo quite visible, in the photo he put up on his Facebook profile.

As I've seen this picture over the past day or so, I can't help but see resemblance to David Duchovny.
posted by msbrauer at 7:24 AM on July 24, 2011


Maybe this isn't the best place for an argument?

Correct. Please do not do this here.
posted by jessamyn at 7:27 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


This is touching - it's a visual representation of people who have lent their support to Norway in the form of holding hands. Google translation:
Keep - keep your hands
In revulsion against violence and in sympathy with all affected
We are now 320,306 to keep each other's hands.
Click here to strengthen the link
posted by desjardins at 7:29 AM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Thinking about the 2083 number and what it could refer to in Breivik's mindset, came across this Lacoste ad, called future clothes in the year 2083 yt , which seemed in keeping with this kook's Starship Troopers, gaming costume fetish weirdness.

He wears a Lacoste sweater, with the logo quite visible, in the photo he put up on his Facebook profile.

Lacoste was founded in 1933, in France, and rolled out the futuristic stuff as part of a 75-year future-looking anniversary campaign.

The sweater he's wearing in the photo is run-of-the-mill to the point that I see it almost every single day that the weather is cool enough for it here (in France).

Also, I highly doubt it has a link to Breivik's "philosophy" (he is not a lover of wisdom, so he gets scare quotes) considering that it's French and multicultural.
posted by fraula at 7:29 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Speaking of photos, and marketing: there are several Facebook images the 32-year-old killer has disseminated in which he looks conventionally handsome; these are quite probably years old and/or Photoshopped. There is also an image in which he looks tubby, palid and balding and is wearing a strange Masonic apron. And there are grainy video images of him shooting children, and presumably a booking photo. Yet guess which photos are all over the media?

Yeah, there's public interest in understanding the motives of a monster. But blindly handing millions of dollars in publicity to a carefully-crafted "heroic" image and hate-mongering manifesto is only going to encourage other pathetic loners with a vision to try to top Friday's death toll, or to select victims who seem equally innocent and newsworthy.

If anything is to be learned from this incident, it may be the overdue need for a comprehensive international media policy of non-reportage of the manifestos of spree killers (see Columbine, Virginia Tech, Ted Kaczynski, etc). There are times when censorship would save lives, and when the public's "right to know" overlaps some rather serious journalistic ethics issues. (I don't have LexisNexis access, but this article looks interesting.)
posted by Scram at 7:53 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Charlie Brooker did a good piece on media reportage of these kind of events in Newswipe a while back, juxtaposing actual media coverage of mass killings with a forensic psychiatrist discussing how NOT to cover the story.
posted by knapah at 8:06 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


If anything is to be learned from this incident, it may be the overdue need for a comprehensive international media policy of non-reportage of the manifestos of spree killers (see Columbine, Virginia Tech, Ted Kaczynski, etc). There are times when censorship would save lives, and when the public's "right to know" overlaps some rather serious journalistic ethics issues. (I don't have LexisNexis access, but this article looks interesting.)

It works so well in China!
posted by b1tr0t at 8:07 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Apologies, I usually try to read all of a thread but I admit I haven't here. Did a quick search, didn't see this link.

The attacker had a Ruger Mini 14 that he had named Gungnir, after the spear of Odin. He played MW2 and viewed it as a "training-simulation." He loved partying in Budapest and thought Hungarian women were "hot as hell" but reluctantly had to avoid relationships "for the good of the mission," and he experimented with engineering his own bullets to deliver a chemical or biological payload, but wasn't satisfied with the results.

From a link on reddit: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1UPMWXTEq9DqhcWBXXRZhMwqDuYsiMahzVIpeK6s9-j0&pli=1
posted by BeerFilter at 8:08 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


Huh, thanks iviken. He does seem to be into lots of badges, insignias, medals and logos. Looking at the pics at the end of his book it seems he created a patch which says he's a "Marxist Hunter" a "Multiculti traitor hunting permit". ugh

It must also be said that one of the main Islamophobic blogs, and one which Breivik used to frequent, is called "Gates of Vienna". 1683 is quite an important date for that political fringe

Fascinated to learn about the 1683 Siege of Vienna thing. Dang, can't believe I never heard of it before today.

Was curious about Breivik's father and biological family. A little about him in this Telegraph article: Jens Breivik, who is in his 70s and living in rural France, was preparing to travel to Norway, where he will be will be met by police.

"I view this atrocity with absolute horror,' said Mr Breivik, a retired diplomat who worked at the Norwegian embassies in both London and Paris. "My condolences go out to all those who have suffered because of this. I am in a state of shock and have not recovered."
Mr Breivik has been estranged from his son for at least 16 years, and only learnt about the killings when he was browsing the news online.


Breivik (junior) writes about his family relationships in his book as well with a few bizarre sentences peppering his overview.

He says of his parents: My parents were not politically active but supported the policies of the Norwegian Labour Party which was common for most individuals working in the public sector. My stepfather, Tore, was a moderately right wing while my stepmother, Tove, was a moderate cultural Marxist and feminist. My mom, Wenche, was an apolitical moderate feminist.

... have not spoken to my father since he isolated himself when I was 15 (he wasn’t very happy about my graffiti phase from 13-16. He has four children but has cut contact with all of them so it is pretty clear whose fault that was.

... I tried contacting him five years ago but he said he was not mentally prepared for a reunion due to various factors, his poor health being one.

...Tore, my stepfather, worked as a major in the Norwegian military and is now retired. I still have contact with him although now he spends most his time (retirement) with prostitutes in Thailand. He is a very primitive sexual beast, but at the same time a very likable and good guy. I can’t say I approve of that lifestyle although I can’t really blame him when I see today’s Marxist social structures.

...Erik’s girlfriend though is a super-feminist and quite radical Marxist. We have had some very interesting conversations where she has almost physically strangled me

Looking up Breivik and Gates of Vienna, I came across the downloadpolitics.com discussion in which it is mentioned he wrote as Fjordman. More about that on Wikipedia, Fjordman. Purportedly "Anders Panders" was another username, supposedly identifying as a Swedish man on FaceBook.

NYTimes article expressing that this was a terrible tragedy but it did not happen in a vacuum with the rising right-wing in Europe: Norway Attacks Put Spotlight on Rise of Right-Wing Sentiment in Europe
posted by nickyskye at 8:46 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


wow, family issues much?
posted by b1tr0t at 8:55 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


It looks like that Dutch Templar-Illuminati-4chan web forum is having a kind of Foucault's Pendulum moment as the administrator gets bombarded with media inquiries about that PCCTS site which he'd been using to troll fringe conspiracy folks.
posted by waterunderground at 9:10 AM on July 24, 2011


Has anyone seen any explanations for why it took the police so long to get to the scene of the shootings, and why Breivik was able to shoot for so long? I've read timframes between 45 minutes and 1 1/2 hours, which seems awfully long.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 9:30 AM on July 24, 2011


Parts of the manifesto from Breivik is copied word for word from the Unabomber manifesto. He changed the text a bit, such as replacing the word "leftism" with "cultural marxism".
posted by iviken at 9:32 AM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


I think I read on the Telegraph blog that the police actually had trouble with the boat they used for getting on the island because it was overloaded with troops and equipment.
posted by Anything at 9:37 AM on July 24, 2011


Has anyone seen any explanations for why it took the police so long to get to the scene of the shootings, and why Breivik was able to shoot for so long? I've read timframes between 45 minutes and 1 1/2 hours, which seems awfully long.

The explanation that I read was from a police chief, who pointed to two things - one, that it took a considerable amount of time to assemble the gear and the personnel for such an undertaking (they didn't know how many shooters and assumed there were many, so they were gathering a special ops team) and, two, that when they got on the boat to head to the island, the boat took on water due to their excessive gear and they had to turn back.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:37 AM on July 24, 2011


SuperSquirrel - I read that they had trouble finding a helicopter and a boat on short notice. It makes me wonder if they train for this stuff the way that American SWAT teams do, given that shootings almost never happen in Norway. As someone mentioned above, only 29 people were killed in all of Norway last year, and I'm sure some of those weren't shootings.
posted by desjardins at 9:37 AM on July 24, 2011


Has anyone seen any explanations for why it took the police so long to get to the scene of the shootings, and why Breivik was able to shoot for so long? I've read timframes between 45 minutes and 1 1/2 hours, which seems awfully long.

Timeframe information from a police news conference one hour ago (Google machine translation):

"Police in South Buskerud was notified of the shooting at 17:26. At 17:38 there was a formal request to the police in Oslo.
At 18:09 arrived at the emergency squad pier where the boat runs to and from Utøya. This also had a patrol from the Southern Buskerud Police arrived at the dock, but the emergency squad was sent out as they are specially trained for this kind of situations.
The forces arrived Utøya 18:25 after taking out the boats. At 18:27 was Breivik arrested."
posted by iviken at 9:38 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Thanks for the explanations. Presumably this picture (the horrific pic of the shooter pointing his weapon at his victims) was taken from a news helicopter? If the police didn't have their own helicopter handy, couldn't they have commandeered the news helicopter and shot the guy from the air?

Please note I'm just curious about how it played out. This is not meant to be criticism or Monday-morning quarterbacking.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 9:50 AM on July 24, 2011


nickyskye, just so you know, GoV has published a denial by Fjordman that he is or even knows Breivik. Fjordman also reportedly attended the "Counterjihad Summit" in person, so would be recognized by other attendees, none of whom has identified him as resembling Breivik thus far. This summit, incidentally, played a role in the schism which propelled Charles Johnson (back) out of the hard right. I think it's interesting how closely they seem to be connected, but I doubt they're the same person -- especially at this point.
posted by dhartung at 9:54 AM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


I want to move to Oslo. What a great people! So civilized in facing a challenging tragedy!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:57 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


The Norwegian police just now held a press briefing where one of the major points was an explanation of their response time. They said that local police got the first warning of shots being fired at 17:27. Approximately ten minutes later they requested backup from Oslo police. At 18:09 special anti-terrorist police squad arrived on the mainland coast across from Utøya. They cross by their boat and land at 18:25. Anders Breivik surrenders to the police at 18:27.

Norwegian Police told at the briefing that they do not have access to transport by helicopter, since the police helicopters are strictly reconnaissance and communication platforms and neither transport nor weapon platforms. They said that after the Oslo bombs they anticipated further attacks and had backup anti-terrorist squads ready for situations like this.

I presume Norwegian police use the same model as Danish police where the special anti-terrorist police officers work as normal police officers and are only mobilized when needed.

Also, and I don't know if this was a factor in response time, normal Norwegian police patrol without any kind of firearm. In situations where firearms might be needed, they're picked up from the weapons locker in the police station (and they have a very low rate of firearm use by the police as a result). As I said, I don't know if this actually delayed the response or not.

I do know that the Danish Police (which are armed while on patrol) that School shootings and similar are treated as a special case where they have orders to disregard their own safety and go in even before backup has arrived. While the Danish Police and the Norwegian Police have a relatively close working relationship (with officer exchange programs, etc.) I do not know if the Norwegian Police has any similar orders regarding "School shootings" not unlike the Utøya massacre.
posted by cx at 9:58 AM on July 24, 2011 [6 favorites]


SuperSquirrel, I'm sure in retrospect every cop involved wishes they'd done more, sooner. It was similar regrets and Monday-morning quarterbacking after Columbine that led police in the US to develop the active shooter protocol. But this is counter to longstanding police training standards of containing and de-escalating.
posted by dhartung at 10:00 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


> Pol Pot as a narssistist is like saying ghenis khan had communication issues.

Pol Pot, sociopath (malignant narcissist).


whom shall you cite next? I have never heard of this doctor...she is not in any my texts as a cited authority. I do not think you can recognize when you have been soundly refuted and that to me is dangerous in the academic sense.

I don't feel good about it but i can now fully ignore your posts with the knowledge of your disseminated faslehoods.

not sorry, still heartbroken.

when i discover more of your investigatory "skills" gone amuck I will post them in the metathread and send you a note.
posted by clavdivs at 10:02 AM on July 24, 2011


SuperSquirrel, I am probably talking out of my ass here, but my uneducated guess is that news helicopters aren't sturdy enough to handle the amount of people and equipment needed for the raid.
posted by desjardins at 10:03 AM on July 24, 2011


In this confusement, reading this thread is very comforting, all your support and adult comments, trying to make sense, understand, and respect, it helps that one part of the world has it's wit and wisdom intact. Thanks for having a sensible place to turn to, thank you very much.

I'm in Canada and I feel just the same, gmm. Hugs.
posted by jokeefe at 10:04 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Presumably this picture (the horrific pic of the shooter pointing his weapon at his victims) was taken from a news helicopter?

That's correct, pictures from NRK:
"But where and when Arnesen had no idea that he had filmed the perpetrator. Only when he had returned to the NRK headquarters Marienlyst he was aware of what he had captured on tape." (Google machine translation.)

A Norwegian law professor says to NRK that Breivik could spend the rest of his life in prison.
posted by iviken at 10:04 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Breivik is not a Norwegian oddity, but symptomatic of a growing culture of politically motivated violence across Europe an interesting synopsis from Matthew Goodwin.
posted by adamvasco at 10:22 AM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


AP: Breivik used exploding dum-dum bullets:
"Dr. Colin Poole, head of surgery at Ringerike Hospital in Hønefoss northwest of Oslo, says surgeons treating 16 gunshot victims have recovered no full bullets.
He told The Associated Press: "These bullets more or less exploded inside the body. ... These bullets inflicted internal damage that's absolutely horrible."

posted by iviken at 10:32 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


He saved 20 to 30 young people from terrorist on Utøya (Machine translation, via reddit)
posted by Skorgu at 10:35 AM on July 24, 2011 [11 favorites]


anigbrowl: "...I was into super-secret Knights Templar..."

Personally, I was more into the Mighty Morphin' Super-Secret Knights Templar Zeo Nine.
posted by symbioid at 10:36 AM on July 24, 2011


Video from central Oslo, moments before the bomb went off, during the bomb blast, and afterwards. The photographer was among the first people to arrive at the scene.
posted by iviken at 10:47 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Just to clarify one aspect of this asshole's disconnection from facts in the real world;

Religious demographics in Norway seem to be 80.6% Christian, 13.2% Non-religious or unknown, and 2% Islamic.

2%. From 2% he perceives an existential threat and decides he must murder 100 liberals.

You know those e-mail chains forwarded by your crazy uncle-in-law? How disconnected they are from facts, how they indulge themselves in their sense of persecution, the parade of insults trotted out as reasonable conversation? "Demorats", "elitists", "smug", "usurpers", "traitors", claiming that liberals are lying about their concern for "compassion" and "fairness", but instead seek totalitarian dominion over American citizens? You've seen those, right?

Seen the economic screeds decrying the "parasites"?

We all know exactly where this asshole got the idea that somebody had to do something.

And in the US you can turn on the radio, and you will be able to hear the host say it was "awful, but...". And when he tells you this is proof that some Norwegians feel they are being overrun by the Islamic mob, remember that it is 2%, and this Norwegian decided he should murder liberals because they are "Cultural Marxists".

And people will still forward that hilarious "Liberal Hunting Permit" to their friends. It's just a joke. Like shooting 'cans.
posted by dglynn at 10:47 AM on July 24, 2011 [15 favorites]


The Forbes blog entry linked to earlier refers to:
the death threats against teachers in France and Holland and elsewhere when they try to teach their students about the Holocaust
and
the decision by Holland’s construction workers’ union to require workers long sleeves and long pants even on the hottest summer days – a response to protests a couple of years ago from Muslims who claimed to be “offended” by workers in shorts and T-shirts performing construction in near-100-degree heat.
Does anyone have any citations for this? Because I am Dutch and I've never heard of it. Honest question.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:48 AM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


Huh. He let his family believe that he was homosexual in order to draw attention from his other activities.
I have managed to divert their suspicions. They thought I played World of Warcraft in hiding and some of them think that I have chosen to live halfway through the insulation because of an alleged homosexual relationship the suspect trying to hide. LOL! quite hilarious, since I am one hundred percent heterosexual, but they can believe whatever they want as long as they do not ask me questions. smiley!, writes the author.
Machine translated from this article
posted by desjardins at 10:52 AM on July 24, 2011


2%. From 2% he perceives an existential threat and decides he must murder 100 liberals.

A well known factoid not just in the UK: Mohammad is the most popular name for newborn boys in Oslo. But that's only in Oslo - not in the rest of the country, and no other traditional islamic names are among the top 20 boys names in Oslo.
posted by iviken at 11:03 AM on July 24, 2011


Earlier today, a memorial service (Google translation) for the Oslo and Utøya victims at the Notre Dame Cathedral, Paris. Many Norwegians who were in Paris to watch the Tour de France final stage, came to the church service.
posted by iviken at 11:16 AM on July 24, 2011


iviken, does that chart for Oslo say that there were 97 births named Mohammed? If so, with Oslo's population of 1.4M, 97 new Mohammeds doesn't strike me as a existential cultural crisis.
posted by dglynn at 11:21 AM on July 24, 2011


A well known factoid not just in the UK: Mohammad is the most popular name for newborn boys in Oslo. But that's only in Oslo - not in the rest of the country, and no other traditional islamic names are among the top 20 boys names in Oslo.

I've wondered before what % of muslim males or male newborns today are given Mohammed ? I assume it's a high proportion, and even higher if people use it as a middle name as well (if middle names make sense culture-wise here)
posted by Bwithh at 11:25 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


SuperSquirrel writes "couldn't they have commandeered the news helicopter and shot the guy from the air?"

A helicopter is a poor shooting platform and a big ol' target. And the police were probably unsure how many shooters there were increasing the risk of engaging via helicopter. I don't recall ever hearing of even American SWAT teams shooting people from helicopters.
posted by Mitheral at 11:31 AM on July 24, 2011


Yeah, it's largely because there is a smaller range of acceptable names to choose from, particularly given the religious monoculture. Latinos have the same feature/problem: José, Jesus, etc.
posted by dhartung at 11:31 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


re: Latino names: In my family, at least, it's more tradition of naming after favorite relatives than a dearth of names. Remember there's all those saints. My family tree is riddled with Manuel's
posted by lysdexic at 11:36 AM on July 24, 2011


For no apparent reason I looked up the popularity of Mohammed as a baby name in the US in 2010. Mohammad, Mohamed, Mohammad, Mohammed, and Muhammad range from 442nd most popular to 648th. Interestingly, the popularity has gone DOWN in the last 20 years.
posted by desjardins at 11:39 AM on July 24, 2011


Regarding the Forbes blog entry, I posted a comment asking for citations, and in response the author privately emailed me two articles which did not quite back up her claims regarding the purported incidents in the Netherlands. I thanked her via email and noted I would respond publicly in the Forbes thread. I posted the following reply:
Abigail,

Of the two articles you emailed me, the Parool article mentions threats but no death threats, and the CIDI article mentions no threats at all.

News articles about the Almere construction workers incident mention no union decision whatsoever. Elsevier reported that workers involved "took note of the complaints" [translation mine] but specified no plans to take action on them.

This is the original Telegraaf report, for reference. It too specifies no action taken on the purported complaints, let alone a union ruling.

Lastly, the record high temperature measured in the Netherlands in May 2008 -- the Telegraaf report was published May 17 -- was 28.5 degrees C, or around 83 degrees F. This cannot in my honest opinion be reasonably described as "near-100-degree heat".

I do not intend to minimize problems that do exist, but I would urge you to base your writing on established facts. Thank you for your time.

Best regards,

Paul G. Hunt
Netherlands
The author emailed me again to note that she had deleted my comment because she felt it was irrelevant.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:14 PM on July 24, 2011 [56 favorites]


Oh, was that you, gnfti? She's getting awfully touchy. Pure chocolate bunny. I'd posted a few comments, but I think I'll stop now.
posted by lysdexic at 12:21 PM on July 24, 2011


The author emailed me again to note that she had deleted my comment because she felt it was irrelevant.
Tradition dictates you must post this email to the comments.
posted by fullerine at 12:27 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


No I will not. It being an email sent to me personally, I interpret that as private correspondence, and I honour this privacy.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:29 PM on July 24, 2011 [9 favorites]


Wow. Just, wow. Is Forbes actually condoning the attacks or what?

well, to be fair, it's a Forbes.com blogger, not Forbes per se
posted by Bwithh at 3:29 PM on July 23 [+] [!]

Right - Forbes just gives them money to write this shit and puts their name at the top of the page. Yeah. Not Forbes' at all. Just like Ron Paul isn't a racist, it was just some guy who wrote racist articles in his newsletter that he published and had his name on. Yup.
posted by symbioid at 3:33 PM on July 23 [7 favorites +] [!]


Forbes currently has 995 bloggers according to my count of its index

It's a Huffington Post type setup. I suspect most of these contributors are not being paid for their work (but benefiting from the association with the Forbes brand), and certainly they are not featured Forbes bloggers.

Here's how to become a Forbes blogger:
http://www.quora.com/How-do-I-become-a-blogger-on-Forbes

Note the Forbes managing editor's comment: "We've parted ways with contributors for writing shoddy, libelous posts"
posted by Bwithh at 12:31 PM on July 24, 2011


gnfti Are you truly expecting mere facts to get in the way of somebody like Esman?
posted by Skeptic at 12:59 PM on July 24, 2011


To the other Norwegian MeFites who might be interested: There will be torchlight processions across the country at 6 p.m. tomorrow.

I will be walking in Oslo, where roses will be carried instead of torches per police request.

There will also be one minute of national silence observed in Norway and Sweden at noon.
posted by Bukvoed at 1:00 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


18.25: Emergency Squad land at Utøya.

18.27: Behring Breivik surrenders without resistance.


Isn't that strange? I cannot think of a similar mass shooting that didn't end in the perpetrator's suicide, or death following a shootout. 2 minutes. He didn't want to die, he wasn't trying to see out some ideological cause until the end. He posted a bunch of stuff on the internet, murdered nearly 100 people, so he could bask in the attention he's getting from it. Fuck him. He's wasted enough life already. I won't read his pdf, I don't care about his video games, his relationship with his family, his melon farm. I feel like such an idiot for getting sucked into reading about him, finding out more about him. What a waste of time. Tomorrow there is a minutes silence for the victims. I'll observe that - I will think about the faceless strangers who died, and their families, and the people of Norway, but I won't waste any more time on that twisted evil individual. Whatever fucked up bullshit he's peddling, he can keep it.
posted by Elmore at 1:13 PM on July 24, 2011 [10 favorites]


And as far as the UK version of the Mohammedan baby army;

"A total of 7,549 newborns were given 12 variations of the Islamic prophet Mohammed’s name last year, such as Muhammad and Mohammad.

There were 706,248 children born in England and Wales last year."


So, ~1.08% of births. 7,549 babies in a country of 60 million.

Further evidence that the hysteria about Eurabia is propagated by bigoted people that can't count.
posted by dglynn at 1:14 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Further evidence that the hysteria about Eurabia is propagated by bigoted people that can't count.

Oh, sure. Let's trust Arabic numerals.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:17 PM on July 24, 2011 [12 favorites]


Grappling with EXTREMISM: All Blends
posted by homunculus at 1:24 PM on July 24, 2011


goodnewsfortheinsane: You really should , imho, email her editor. Include your initial letter, her incorrect assertions, links to the corrected facts and her entire email where she refuses to correct her reporting and then deletes your email.

For good measure - if Forbes has an editorial section , place a copy of your letter to her editor in the comments. Faux journalists like that need to go back to blogging on their personal website - not Forbes.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 1:34 PM on July 24, 2011 [11 favorites]


I have posted a comment to Esman's blog. Knowing her censoring ways, I'll post it here as well:

Ms. Esman,

The 9/11, Madrid and London terrorist attacks touched me very personally, as on all three occasions I had reason to fear for the safety of family or friends. My anxiety at the time, however, was not as strong as the anger I felt later when I heard people try to “explain” those attacks as a “protest”, like you have done here.

I don’t have close friends or relatives in Norway who could have been victims in this attack, and yet, when I read your article yesterday, it rekindled in me the same white-hot anger and disgust I felt then. The understanding you bring towards the terrorist’s alleged motives, coupled with your absolute lack of empathy or consideration towards the victims and their relatives, at a time when scores or families still didn’t know whether their children were dead or alive, are equal to some of the vilest writings of other apologists of terrorism.

Not content with this, you’ve compounded it with a dissemination of false allegations about the “Muslim dilemma” in Europe, and in particular Holland, for which you have been rightfully called out (and promptly censored the dissenting comments). I must add that I actually lived in Holland at the time of Theo van Gogh’s murder, moreover in a heavily immigrant neighborhood, just across the street from a popular mosque, and I never saw a single Muslim celebrate his murder, contrary to what you allege with no evidence whatsoever.

Finally, to add insult to injury, you have added a non-apology in which you blame “the people and governments who never helped Muslim immigrants to assimilate, who never asked them or helped them to learn their culture”. Do you count the Norwegian government or Labour party among those people, Ms. Esman? Do you blame the victims?

Your blog is very aptly named. This particular terrorist has called his attacks “atrocious but necessary”. You call them “horrifying” but “inevitable”. He was the sword. You are the pen. Just two sides of the same coin.
posted by Skeptic at 1:52 PM on July 24, 2011 [15 favorites]


Stop arguing.
A well known factoid not just in the UK: Mohammad is the most popular name for newborn boys in Oslo. But that's only in Oslo - not in the rest of the country, and no other traditional islamic names are among the top 20 boys names in Oslo.
Because (as other people pointed out) Christians (at least in the UK and probably Norway) don't name their kids "Jesus". If you look at all biblical names: John, Mark, Paul, etc they way outnumber Mohammad. (Btw one of my teachers in highschool was pretty religious and she named her son Cain which I thought was kind of badass)

I did hear Bill Maher spout a variation of this, which proves he's a idiot.
posted by delmoi at 1:54 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


18.25: Emergency Squad land at Utøya.
18.27: Behring Breivik surrenders without resistance.
Isn't that strange?


Not really. He wants attention through a long court process. "Look at me, world, LOOK AT ME!"

iviken, does that chart for Oslo say that there were 97 births named Mohammed? If so, with Oslo's population of 1.4M, 97 new Mohammeds doesn't strike me as a existential cultural crisis.


Exactly. However, in quite a few public schools in Oslo, a majority of the pupils are multiethnic. There has been some news stories about pupils who couldn't bring salami sandwiches to school, because of the pork content... The "solution" for some, is to move to a more expensive area with "whiter" schools. (Btw, Breivik went to school and lived in one of the "whitest" areas in Oslo.)

This is certainly not a fundamental cultural crisis, by any standard.

More statistics:
" Immigrants and those born in Norway to immigrant parents constitute 600 900 persons or 12.2 per cent of Norway's population. Broken down by region, 287 000 have a European background, 210 000 persons have a background from Asia, 74 000 from Africa, 19 000 from Latin-America and 11 000 from North America and Oceania.

The majority of the immigrants are from Poland, Sweden, Germany and Iraq. Thirty-four per cent of the immigrants have Norwegian citizenship."
posted by iviken at 1:54 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Huh, I wonder why he doesn't comment on Poles, Swedes, or Germans ruining the Norwegian cultural identity, then? I didn't read all 1500 pages, just making an assumption.
posted by desjardins at 2:05 PM on July 24, 2011


That 2083 doc is staggering. I jumped in expecting a lunatic, and climbed out somewhat shaken. He may have acted alone, but he is not alone: much like Tea Party, he is the visible wingnut peak of a much deeper ideological iceberg. 'Insane' is not the right descriptor: he may be crazy, his actions unfathomable, but he is rational.

He is McVeigh, he is the Unabomber, he is the new-age Templar Knight: engaged in a holy crusade to purge the West of the Muslim threat. And he aims to do it by targeting the 'cultural marxists' - and their socialist apologists, whether political, media or academic - who he sees as enabling an Islamic takeover via the trojan horse of globalisation.

And so we turn on ourselves.

Really, he is Al Qaeda dressed in fundamentalist christian robes. As he says, they have the same desire: a pure Aryan West matched against an Islamic Caliphate. So I see not one madman with a gun: I see thousands. Millions. Halfwit Jared Loughners and reckless disenfranchised open-carry shooters are suddenly all inspired. A forever war. What a wonderful world that will be.

And now they have, in microscopic detail, a template to follow. The Wingnut Manifesto.

It starts getting interesting about 900 pages in. Skip all the handwavey historical religious conspiratorial stuff. He has real-world links to Serbian nationalists, collects 7000 email addresses from right-wing facebook contacts, makes trips to London and Monrovia, meets like-minded souls, joins the Masons, starts the Knights Templar jaunt. He sees himself as a lone wolf, but one within a larger pack - a sleeper cell beholden to a much larger movement. Of course, that may all be self-delusion, a need to belong to something ...

The efforts made in researching, planning and acting on his fantasies are described in obsessive, impressive, disturbing detail. Brides on their wedding day would do less. The guy rents a farm as cover for his purchases of ammonium nitrate; scours the internet for weapons, armour, chemicals, equipment; considers everything from flamethrowers wielded by fake firemen to biological, chemical, nuclear weapons.

The countdown diaries toward the end, when he is racing the clock and battling technical impediments to compile the bomb as neighbors and random passersby intrude and threaten to unravel his secret and the paranoia and suicidal ideation kick in ... well, they're riveting. I've never encountered anything like it. You can watch Bond or Bourne or 24 but this, right here, is the madman, telling you what it was like before D-Day in clear and lucid prose. If they existed, I would defy you not to read Bin Ladens' diaries. As someone noted above, by this stage he had become the mission. He is broke, his life unravelled, despairing, completely alone, and everything given to a sick obsession.

There is only one way out.

The years of deliberate isolation prior to the act - and one small moment, days before the end, when he catches the eye of a pretty girl in a cafe and considers - are devastating. By this time he's not self-aware enough to know part of him is trying to stop this train and get the fuck off, dead or alive.

Tabloid details: he was on steroids, took regular ECA stacks (ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin) and trained with packs weighted down with rocks while carrying an iron bar - in place of a weapon - to enhance performance. There are suggestions that he may have worked - or at least intended to work - at the youth camp before the attack, and it seems very likely he filmed part or all of the mission (the camera used and impracticalities of uploading such large files to the net quickly should he escape were discussed).

There may be a whore, or whores, used and paid for in the final weeks. My impression was this was wishful thinking, a guy so full of failure and self-hate, so unable to connect to women that he would rather shoot them than talk to them. Psychologists will have a field day with his sexual issues. Lots of Madonna - Whore.

The gaming exposure and his own inverted jesus / superhero complex led to him attempting to design and build a Robocop - Ironman suit: military-grade armour, boots and backbrace spiked to repel attackers: he even considered razor inserts from wrist to elbow.

Every possible combination of police and public response was considered. Sun Tzu is quoted extensively: the bomb is a distraction, he stalks and corners kids ON AN ISLAND for fucks sake. There are apparently four phases to the mission; we only know 1 and 2. He had a redspot laser and 3x sight on his weapon and hollow-point armour-piercing bullets that he tried injecting with nicotine (a lethal poison at high dose).

Dosed up on drugs and adrenalin, ipod repetitively blaring Lux Aeterna, dressed in a superhero suit: it all would have seemed like the worlds' most immersive gaming experience. On the day, nothing was real. If he is sane, there is no other way: how else could you go through with it?

Bigger-picture things that hit me: university campuses, media / journalism conventions and left-wing political offices or rallies of any sort are no longer safe. Europe or elsewhere. All are named as targets. Security and intel forces will be scrambling right now. Other missions are considered and dismissed. You want cold and rational? Ok, try this: it is better for a cell to successfully take down many B targets with minimal security than die in vain chasing a high-security low-probability A target. That logic is many things, but crazy it ain't.

Also: nationalism is back. In a big way. An unbelieveable number of innocent people have just been murdered, and that is tragic and they should be mourned: but it is important to realise this was not a lone whacko what drank the koolaid. This was a political assassination. There is a war being fought out there, and we are seeing glimpses.

You cannot have 50 million young men stand idle for a decade as their economies collapse around them. They will find things to do. A tea-party here, a National Socialist Party there, a Wahabbist sect over there. In 1914 an ArchDuke is shot. What follows? In 2011 a right-wing gunman is loosed in a socialist state. Give them a reason, give them something to believe, and they will act. Butterflies flap their wings, and Forces are at play ...
posted by bookie at 2:09 PM on July 24, 2011 [70 favorites]


There's that, Elmore, for sure. On the other hand, (not only for someone who, like myself, lives in rural Sweden, in a community that scored unexpectedly high pro-extreme-right-wing at the last elections) some type of acknowledgement of the Crazy out there seems necessary. You know, idiots that could be my neighbors. I find it really complicated to wrap my mind around this problem, even as a decidedly non-paranoid person. For people who live in a society not that unlike Norway, to try to get an idea of what happened in that head is no mere grappling for oh-so-horrible-type-of-gossip, unfortunately.

(That said, I won't read that text, no.)

[Oh, and I shudder at the prospect of the organic farm humor-to-come. Melons indeed. Ho bloody ho. Try to grow anything except dandelions in this climate.]
posted by Namlit at 2:11 PM on July 24, 2011


Elmore: at least one report I've read says he ran out of ammunition before the police arrived. So immediate surrender doesn't surprise me at all.
posted by stinkycheese at 2:14 PM on July 24, 2011


So what part of "Thou shalt not kill" did he not understand?
posted by Soliloquy at 2:15 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


FYI: The police have confirmed that he had quite a lot of ammo left when the police apprehended him (english source).
posted by Haarball at 2:17 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


However, in quite a few public schools in Oslo, a majority of the pupils are multiethnic. There has been some news stories about pupils who couldn't bring salami sandwiches to school, because of the pork content...


Is this news story kosher or is just baloney? (boom boom)

But seriously, this strikes me as very odd. I went to junior and high schools in London which were both very multiethnic/multireligious - plenty of kosher observant Jews and plenty of halal observant Muslims and plenty of Christians - and agonist/atheists too (like me). Never had a rule like this about not being able to bring pork to school (!)
posted by Bwithh at 2:18 PM on July 24, 2011


18.25: Emergency Squad land at Utøya.

18.27: Behring Breivik surrenders without resistance.

Isn't that strange?


No. Everything that we know about him tells us that he's a blowhard. A yellow-livered coward. "Hunting" defenceless kids with automatic weapons, yes, he could do that. Facing down an armed anti-terrorist squad? Not in a thousand years.

I expect, and hope, that he'll break down and cry during his judgment.
posted by Skeptic at 2:22 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Melons indeed.

OK, before the "melon farmer" speculation goes any further, I thought it was established earlier that he didn't have anything approaching a melon farm, but that his farm was listed by a European farm classification system as one that grows "vegetables, root vegetables, and/or melons". Derail over, carry on.
posted by dialetheia at 2:22 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Never had a rule like this about not being able to bring pork to school (!)

It seems the school didn't mind, but some of the muslim pupils did. Aftenposten (the source for this story) is the second largest paper in Norway and a reliable source. The same story from TV2 Norway (Google translation).
posted by iviken at 2:26 PM on July 24, 2011


Wow, bookie, that's one of the best comments Metafilter has ever seen.
posted by jamjam at 2:28 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


And yet I'm still here...

Namlit, I fully understand and appreciate that. And after posting my comment I felt it was maybe a bit too personal and to do with my emotional response. I was just sick at my self for giving the guy what he wants and thinking of the dead as numbers.

Stinkycheese, I hadn't heard that, but I still find it odd. He had a what, 5 stage plan with a fucking 'bonus' round? Wouldn't you keep a round or two in the chamber, unless you wanted to be alive for the aftermath - and I just mean historically the sort of nutjobs who commit these atrocities tend not to survive, and indeed seem to plan on not surviving.

Isn't that strange? No.

I meant isn't it strange when compared to previous mass murder shootings. I can't think of any similar cases that haven't ended in the death of the perpetrator, whether it was suicide or 'suicide by cop'. Maybe one school shooting, was it in Finland?

Dialetheia, I thought the 'melon farmer' thing was ridiculous, and it was part of the point of my post that I am focussing on such bizarre stupid unreasonable details about him, and ignoring the victims. Sorry, that's what's annoying me, about myself, not this thread.

And now I really need to get away from this for a while.
posted by Elmore at 2:32 PM on July 24, 2011


Telegraph:
Scotland Yard’s domestic extremism unit is trying to identify the seven other people who attended the inaugural meeting of the “European Military Order and Criminal Tribunal” of the “Knights Templar” in London in April 2002.

He wrote: “The order is to serve as an armed Indigenous Rights Organisation and as a Crusader Movement” and said the session was hosted by an English Protestant. Another English extremist was also present as well as French, German, Greek, Dutch and Russian delegates.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:33 PM on July 24, 2011


Interesting piece in the Indian newspaper The Hindu: Anders Breivik & Europe's blind right eye
posted by homunculus at 2:37 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Breivik's rapid surrender is consistent with his current position of admitting to the facts but pleading not guilty by reason of necessity. Necessity pleas are often used by defendants who want to turn their trial into a forum for their views.

McVeigh wanted to plead necessity but his attorneys wouldn't agree to it. He also immediately surrendered without resistance.

Breivik, by the way, is operating from a totally racist position. He details his "Nordic race" views extensively on p. 1152 of his compilation. It is section numbered 3.84, but there is no index for that entry in the PDF I've read.

It's full-bore proto-nazi race theory based on Madison Grant's The Passing of the Great Race. The section is titled "Knights Templar and Ethnocentrism." It is hard-core biological determinism supporting a eugenics program for racial purity.

Breivik uses double-talk copied directly from American racists to redefine racism to exclude his position. Elsewhere he disavows racism. The double-talk is conscious evasion and he is fully aware that he is copy-pasting and editing white supremacists.

The question often comes up, "why are there so few of these incidents?" My hunch is that the circumstances required for somebody to commit these type of crimes in social isolation are themselves extremely rare. I think it wouldn't take much intervention to stop the train of events. He kept his secret.

How to prevent this sort of thing? Public mental heath education would be a good place to start.

Preventing socially organized political violence is a different thing. That requires open opposition and removing any expression of support and permission. The Hope Not Hate campaign is a good example.
posted by warbaby at 2:38 PM on July 24, 2011 [4 favorites]


I cannot think of a similar mass shooting that didn't end in the perpetrator's suicide, or death following a shootout. 2 minutes. He didn't want to die, he wasn't trying to see out some ideological cause until the end. He posted a bunch of stuff on the internet, murdered nearly 100 people, so he could bask in the attention he's getting from it.

Have a look at his lawyer's statement. He's pretty clear that his actions are necessary and logical, and once he explains to the media, everyone will understand.

There has been some news stories about pupils who couldn't bring salami sandwiches to school, because of the pork content...

If that's for real, that, frankly, is pretty fucked up. "Multicultural" shouldn't mean that the least tolerant cultural mores apply.
posted by rodgerd at 2:41 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


What also struck me, as I spent more time yesterday than I should have reading his diatribe, is some of the... childishness of it. He designs medals and uniforms and even tombstones (with special inscriptions about how "All Free Europeans are in Your Debt") and eventual monuments for his imagined neo-Knights Templar army. It's similar to the kind of thing that I and many children did-- invent countries and worlds and their various attributes, though with an adult's capacity for self-aggrandization. To whit: he's pled guilty so that he could have a day to grandstand in court. He's already written the opening and closing speeches which he intends to deliver to the public-- they are in the manual, complete with those quotes about watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, etc., so loved by the Tea Party-- but I naturally hope that he'll be left to his own devices when it comes to any words he is give time to speak, which should quickly reveal the poverty of his thinking.
posted by jokeefe at 2:42 PM on July 24, 2011 [7 favorites]


Incidentally, this isn't lone gunman stuff, IMO. Bill Machrone wrote a column many years ago (which I haven't looked for online) for PC Magazine where he noted that one downside of the Internet was that it could facilitate forums for the "weird to get weirder"; guys lke this are pretty much the end point of that concern. He doesn't appear to be the nutter in a log cabin in the mountains, but rather a very connected guy who's spent a lot of time making contacts with other nutters, sitting in echo chambers where they normalize one another's views.
posted by rodgerd at 2:45 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


OK rogerd, I guess that's part of the problem I have with this. Years of planning, meticulous detail, callousness like I've never seen before to allow the massacre to happen. He's in no way insane, yet he's completely inhuman. How does that match?
posted by Elmore at 2:50 PM on July 24, 2011


There will be copycats because Breivik is a copycat himself.

His "compilation" is something that he made up, he didn't learn it from socializing with a group of like-minded people. Somebody will probably do the textual analysis to find all the sources of his plagarism.

OTOH, every similar isolated loon now has a blueprint to follow. It's not the first time. Louis Beam was doing the same thing with his promotion of Leaderless Resistance or Phantom Cell Networks.

One thing about Leaderless Resistance: it's a proven failure as a resistance strategy. Sadly ironic as it might seem, any movement that adopts leaderless strategy is nearly extinct.
posted by warbaby at 2:52 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


can someone run turnitin against this pdf? i'm awfully curious how plagiarized it is.
posted by Mach5 at 2:53 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Touching video of a memorial service held in Oslo, especially the King and Queen openly weeping [at 01:21].
posted by ericb at 2:54 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


Is it plagiarism if the author acknowledges he didn't write it? He says right at the beginning at least half of the document is not his work.
posted by stinkycheese at 2:56 PM on July 24, 2011


from the Guardian:
Breivik was my friend on Facebook. I've seen what fed his hatred
I was once a member of Sweden's nationalist party, but vile online propaganda drove me away
One day I had a friend request on Facebook from Anders Breivik. There wasn't anything odd about that: when I was a member of SD I was magnetically attractive to everyone who called himself a nationalist: both those for whom it was a game, and the real extremists. Those were, in fact, the people who drove me away from the party. A machine of hate propaganda pumped through my feed on Facebook. There were YouTube clips of massacre victims, demands that all the "fucking niggers" should get out of the country, and far more horrible things.

I reacted by backing away. But for many other people who are weak, or feel bad for some reason, this stream was something to drink from. They egg each other on to believe that the Social Democrats are guilty of all the horrors we'll come to experience; that immigrants rape and murder and that it's the socialists' fault. It is the fault of Mona Sahlin, former Social Democrat leader, that we will be forced to wear burkas and live under sharia law by 2020.

(...) He said very little on Facebook. He was a very quiet man, but that in itself gave me the creeps. I followed him for a while because I wanted to find out if he was what he claimed to be, or maybe "a spy". Please understand that if you're a member of the SD you have to put on your paranoid hat: you learn that there is an enemy hiding round every corner.

There are many people like me – Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, and other Europeans – who had this person as a friend on Facebook. I wonder how they feel now.

Everyone who is critical of aspects of our immigration policies must wake up and realise what their endless talk about dangers and hatred can lead to. Even though no one wanted to fuel this terrible act in Norway, that's what they actually did. And there are more people out there who are looking for reasons to justify their actions by being able to refer to what "others" have written, above all on the net.

(...) Now I will continue to feel sick that I had one of the worst murderers in years on my friend list. I am ashamed of that. I am ashamed.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:56 PM on July 24, 2011 [9 favorites]


Oh, she has answered!

Interesting. We must have been neighbors. I lived around the corner from where Theo van Gogh was killed. If you were to have read the blogs that I read at the time, you would have read the comments I read. In fact, I’d be happy to send you the links if you contact me privately.

You have not understood a single word I have written here.You know nothing of my work or expertise. Your accusations are unfounded and, frankly, a violation of Forbes posting rules. I am sorry that you misunderstood me and that you find yourself feeling offended, but if you research more, perhaps you will understand better.

Please do not post any further attacks. Your posts will be deleted.


To which I'm now replying:

Ms. Esman,

You are free to send me as many execrable blog postings from Islamist extremists as you like, celebrating van Gogh's murder. However, as I'm sure you must be aware of, mindless drivel spouted anonymously on the blogosphere is hardly an adequate indication of an entire population's mood. If I had a penny for every comment that has been posted on the internet celebrating Baruch Goldstein or the gaolers of Abu Ghraib, I'd be a very rich man indeed.

However, what I witnessed at street level, and what I'm sure you witnessed too if you paid any attention, was deep shame. Shame and fear. And no, we weren't neighbours. I lived in a different city, not far from where the Hofstad Network had its standoff with the police.

Otherwise, it appears that you consider criticism, earnestly felt criticism, as attacks to be censored. I wonder which Forbes posting rules I wrote, I certainly don't see any in the Comment Policy. But don't worry, I won't post any further comments. You are definitely not worth the bother.


My comments being deleted in 3...2...1
posted by Skeptic at 2:59 PM on July 24, 2011 [8 favorites]


From his insane compendium, an interview with himself ...

More:
An Interview with a Madman: Breivik Asks and Answers His Own Questions.
posted by ericb at 2:59 PM on July 24, 2011


TIME Magazine photo gallery: Norway Reels After Horrific Shooting and Bombing.
posted by ericb at 3:03 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


It's also important to recognize that while Norwegians may act courageously, refuse to give in to fear, and work to strengthen their democratic, multicultural society, the same may not be true elsewhere in Europe. Even setting aside the very poor early media coverage with all its assumptions about islamist involvement, the general lessons of insecurity and social chaos that this massacre promotes are just the sort of thing that drives in the long-term the embrace of fearful nationalist politics by rural and suburban populations.

The increasing disconnection of so many people from engaging with the urban-focused ideas, preoccupations and opportunities of today's civil society needs to be recognized not only as a major challenge of progressive politics, but as a well of public insecurity that is drawn naturally to and into arch-conservative, nativist or far-right defensive narratives.

Personal alienation and alone-ness may drive individual attackers like Breivik to gravitate to fringe ideas and online forums, but their commitment to violent redress of that isolation is strengthened by the fear, isolation and civic loneliness they see in the faces of so many of their neighbours and relatives. Breivik believes that he is not alone, and that his actions will spur a wider mobilization towards his desired ends, because the people he knows locally (while all "liberals" in his view) are probably largely demobilized, uninvolved in community civil society, political and cultural activities outside of their employment. Despite having great difficulty relating to his family, neighbours and acquaintances, it is their own experiences and demonstrations of immobility and disconnection that allows him to believe that he is fighting for them and that he will ultimately be redeemed and repatriated as a result of his actions.
posted by waterunderground at 3:08 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Well, the anti-American loonies at Russia Today have an interesting take on the whole situation.

Norway Killer Anders Breivik - big ego, religious, possibly brainwashed

Stephen Lendman: 'Caution! Watch out for false flags.'

And the tin-foil hat brigade has started their nonsense as well:

5 reasons why the Oslo bombing already looks like a false flag.

Ridiculous.
posted by thescientificmethhead at 3:16 PM on July 24, 2011


guess who read too many dan brown books?
posted by 3mendo at 3:17 PM on July 24, 2011


And it's gone! It hasn't taken her even ten minutes to remove my reply! She hasn't deleted my original comment, though. Maybe she can't delete a comment anymore after having replied to it. What a pity...
posted by Skeptic at 3:18 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


He designs medals and uniforms and even tombstones

I'd say a fascination with designing these kinds of things is a Nazi characteristic. As soon as I read this I thought of Goering. Design is crucial for a successful movement.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:19 PM on July 24, 2011


Charlie Brooker:
On Saturday morning I saw a Fox News anchor tell former US diplomat John Bolton that Norwegian police were saying this appeared to be an Oklahoma-style attack, then ask him how that squared with his earlier assessment that al-Qaida were involved. He was sceptical. It was still too early to leap to conclusions, he said. We should wait for all the facts before rushing to judgment. In other words: assume it's the Muslims until it starts to look like it isn't – at which point, continue to assume it's them anyway.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:33 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


bookie writes "He had a redspot laser and 3x sight on his weapon and hollow-point armour-piercing bullets that he tried injecting with nicotine (a lethal poison at high dose). "

It's either hollow point or armour piercing. You can't have both as the bullet designs are mutually incompatible. A hollow point bullet is designed to mushroom and shatter to provide maximum energy transfer and the AP bullet is designed to keep its pointy shape even when impacting hard materials in order to penetrate body armour and get to the squishy human underneath. Also armour piercing bullets aren't required when using a long gun. Any decent rifle bullet is going to penetrate even high grade body armour.
posted by Mitheral at 3:36 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Norway rescuer had to make life or death choices -- "Otto Loevik didn't have room on his boat for all who were trying to flee gunman."
posted by ericb at 3:38 PM on July 24, 2011


However, in quite a few public schools in Oslo, a majority of the pupils are multiethnic. There has been some news stories about pupils who couldn't bring salami sandwiches to school, because of the pork content...

Is this news story kosher or is just baloney? (boom boom)

But seriously, this strikes me as very odd. I went to junior and high schools in London which were both very multiethnic/multireligious - plenty of kosher observant Jews and plenty of halal observant Muslims and plenty of Christians - and agonist/atheists too (like me). Never had a rule like this about not being able to bring pork to school (!)
posted by Bwithh at 2:18 PM on July 24 [+] [!]
Here in the UK we have examples of "well-meaning" officials (to give them the benefit of the doubt) taking it upon themselves to ban items/activities they believe will be offensive cultures other than their own (like Christmas trees). Not only are they misguided, they're giving ammunition to the red tops like the Daily Mail to stir up more racist crap.

As for the pork, my other half works with kids sorry, "young people" of all races, colours and creeds in one of the most deprived areas of the south east. "Elf n safey" regulations cover just about everything but I don't think any food items have been banned (yet).
posted by humph at 3:45 PM on July 24, 2011


Not sure if this is true or not about the Norwegian special forces being near his place: Breivik has a farm in Ostre Asta, near Oslo.

The farm is in the rough area of the biggest top specialist elite military complex in Norway: Norway's special forces.


> whom shall you cite next? I have never heard of this doctor

The author whose opinion about Pol Pot being a sociopath is Martha Stout, PhD, instructor on the faculty of the Harvard Medical School for over twenty-five years. Her book, The Sociopath Next Door is well known.

Norway terror death toll rises to 93

Hunt for Britons linked to Norway killer Anders Behring Breivik

The Independent, UK: Anne Holt, a former government minister and prominent journalist before turning her hand to crime writing, believes too much attention had been given to addressing a perceived Islamic threat over the past 10 years, while home-grown extremism has largely been ignored.

--
"Otto Loevik didn't have room on his boat for all who were trying to flee gunman."

That story has haunted me since I read it yesterday. How utterly awful to be in that predicament, then to know the consequences.

> Touching video of a memorial service held in Oslo

Thanks for that ericb.
posted by nickyskye at 3:50 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


I'm Norwegian. nickyskye, It's true that Norwegian special forces (FSK) are located near his farm, at Rena. It consists of two "troops", as we call them:

Spesialjegertroppen (special forces)
Fallskjermjegertroppen (paratroopers)

I think these are considered the "second best" soldiers in Norway, behind Marinejegere (which I think is pretty much the equivalent to Navy SEALs, and located elsewhere).

Let me know if anyone needs help with translations.
posted by Haarball at 4:00 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


delmoi: "Obviously political correctness is a epithet developed by conservatives use to describe attempts (perhaps overzealous in some cases) by liberals to get rid of racism/sexism by casting those attempts in an orwellian light. "

Not quite. The right borrowed the (current, derogatory meaning of the) phrase from the left: it was used to take the piss out of fellow left-wingers who tended to unthinkingly toe the Party line. Not sure when the sarcastic usage started, but I'm going to take a punt on '56.
posted by jack_mo at 4:03 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


That story has haunted me since I read it yesterday. How utterly awful to be in that predicament, then to know the consequences.

Indeed, haunting. I hope he may find some consolation in realizing that, had he not made such a difficult choice, possibly he could have stalled too much , loaded the boat with too many people, or maybe become an easier target of opportunity for the murdered. We'll never know how it would have playedo ut, but he still as my appreciation for his taking the risk of being killed and for taking at least some out of danger. Whoever saves one life, saves the world entire, seems to apply to his effort.
posted by elpapacito at 4:06 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


My first thought on this "Englishman Richard" is that he is referring to Richard the Lion-Hearted, who led the Crusades.
posted by Windopaene at 4:18 PM on July 24, 2011


From his diary, referring to the military base:

"Wednesday May 11 - Day 10: I completed packing an evacuation kit. I felt a lot more safe and prepared for any emergency once I was done. When I returned from the southern town later that day, I saw two military 12 man teams, armed to the teeth, just 2000m south of my farm. The largest military base in the country is located just a few kilometers north-east of my farm and their territory extends almost all the way down to my property. They have notified all their neighbours, me included, that they are conducting a large military training session as to prepare a new division of soldiers for the war against the Taliban and al-Qaida in Afghanistan. It's quite ironic being situated practically on top of the largest military base in the country. It would have saved me a lot of hassle if I could just "borrow" a cup of sugar and 3kg of C4 from my dear neighbour:-)"
posted by Haarball at 4:28 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


This afternoon there was a CNN interview with a local Lake Tyrifjorden resident who rescued some of those fleeing from the island.

Listening to his personal account brought shivers to my spine and arms.

He plucked 14 kids out of the lake on his first pass. He made 3 more trips. He mentioned that they were all in shock and that most were in underwear or naked -- having stripped their clothing to swim. He asked that each person tell him their name as he hauled them into the boat. He asked the question, so as to try and force some sort of intimacy to the situation where everyone was paralysed with fear -- and in one case, paranoia. One girl he picked up asked him: "Are you a policeman?" He said: "no." He later learned from some of the kids that the shooter was dressed as one. During his later passes to/from the island he saw kids huddled in groups at the base of steep rocks. He waved and shouted on two passes, but soon came to realize they were dead. He later learned that they were likely shot in the woods above, crawled to the rocks, slipping and falling to the shoreline. Many were found huddled together, hugging each other, as they died from their fatal wounds. Huddled together in death. God bless them.
posted by ericb at 4:36 PM on July 24, 2011 [7 favorites]


Here in the UK we have examples of "well-meaning" officials (to give them the benefit of the doubt) taking it upon themselves to ban items/activities they believe will be offensive cultures other than their own (like Christmas trees). Not only are they misguided, they're giving ammunition to the red tops like the Daily Mail to stir up more racist crap.

I've rarely seen any such story that turned out to be wholly true. Most are complete misrepresentation or downright lies.

As for the pork, my other half works with kids sorry, "young people" of all races, colours and creeds in one of the most deprived areas of the south east. "Elf n safey" regulations cover just about everything but I don't think any food items have been banned (yet).

This is getting off-topic, but an awful lot of what people complain about with "elf and safety" is public liability. "Regulations" often don't exist as such outside the workplace (although national guidelines do exist when it comes to minors), rather they are issued by organizations to ensure they don't fail their duty of care or somehow invalidate their insurance. Such guidelines are often drawn up by individuals with no specific experience and hence lean toward obtuse outcomes. I've known hilariously stupid guidelines (such as risk-assessing domestic appliances for the danger they pose), but also smart and thoughtful guidelines that accepted minors could bear a certain level of responsibility.

Also on these lines are the "health and safety bureaucrats close village fete", when really the organizers weren't willing or able to buy insurance, or in the case of my hometown, provide stewards to manage crowds.

posted by Jehan at 4:41 PM on July 24, 2011 [4 favorites]


And now for something depressingly familiar: The Jerusalem Post channels Abigail Esman.
posted by bakerina at 5:00 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


The Jerusalem Post channels Abigail Esman.

I really wish my fellow Jews would stop writing things like that. :( With that said, the JP is known a a very right wing rag - kind of like the Wall Street Journal. I believe that the Ha'Aretz newspaper is much more progressive.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 5:07 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


I know that the Norwegian people have sentenced me to death, and that the easiest course for me would be to take my own life. But I want to let history reach its own verdict. Believe me, in ten years' time I will have become another Saint Olav.
Familiar-seeming messianic delusions? It's not the shooter, but rather Vidkun Quisling. I imagine Breivik's name will earn a similar place in Norwegian history. One can only hope he thoroughly discredits his fellow-travellers.
posted by rodgerd at 5:12 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


With that said, the JP is known a a very right wing rag - kind of like the Wall Street Journal.

I figured it was -- and of course, I didn't take it as representative of public opinion in Israel. I was just taken aback by how closely it skewed to the Esman post. I was even peeking around for her byline for a second.
posted by bakerina at 5:13 PM on July 24, 2011


"I know that the Norwegian people have sentenced me to death"

You sentenced yourself, you complete and utter mistake in our collective consciousness.
posted by panaceanot at 5:17 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


bakerina : You can get a very different take by looking at an article about the massacre in Ha'Aretz - note the comments - aside from a few right wingers who are put down pretty quickly the comments have much more of a Progressive vibe. Like any other country you are going to have different publications appealing to different segments of society.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 5:17 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


If any Norwegians are still up... is it true that FrP leader Siv Jensen really said that linking Breivik with the FrP is just as horrible as what Breivik did? I'm having a really hard time believing that she really said that, as distasteful as I find her politics. I haven't been able to find a video of her saying it.
posted by Kattullus at 5:22 PM on July 24, 2011


Jonathan Kay: Already, the Norway conspiracy theories have begun
posted by thescientificmethhead at 5:30 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Skeptic: "My comments being deleted in 3...2...1"

I would delete your comments too, you are being belligerent. Take a breath.
posted by Bonzai at 5:30 PM on July 24, 2011


goodnewsfortheinsane: Brooker's comment section is depressing, having been quickly rushed by sub-Daily Mail intellects braying about TEH MOOSLIMS, LOLNORWAY LAWS TO SOFT, their undying support for racist English political positions, and taking him to task for daring to offer criticism. The nadir was perhaps the suggestion that the picture running with it - a headscarf-wearing black Norwegian alongside a white Norwegian - as "Somewhat provocative and insensitive".
posted by rodgerd at 5:31 PM on July 24, 2011


Katullus, I hadn't heard that, but apparently the answer is yes, although she has apologized (in the form of "if somebody took [what I said] the wrong way, I want to apologize"). Another quote: "We too have become an innocent victim for this man's actions."

I do agree with Kyrre Nakkim, though; as much as I loathe her and her party's politics, this is just her usual "blame the media" victimization strategy/reflex backfiring. I do not believe that she considers these actions to be in any way equal.

(Some background: Siv Jensen is the leader of the Progress Party, the second largest party in Parliament, and the right-most of the established "respectable" parties. While they use anti-immigration rhetoric, I would consider them of a different ilk than the right-wing parties on the rise in the rest of Europe; they are fundamentally populist, not nationalist.)
posted by Bukvoed at 5:38 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


If any Norwegians are still up... is it true that FrP leader Siv Jensen really said that linking Breivik with the FrP is just as horrible as what Breivik did?

She did, tried to deny her statement to a reporter who called her later, (Google machine translation) and then called the reporter back (Google translation) and claimed she might have been exhausted... Oh well. She probably didn't mean what she said, but that this was her usual knee-jerk reaction to bad news: blaming the media.
posted by iviken at 5:44 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Thanks, iviken and Bukvoed. Having now seen the video... ooph... I can understand why so many people got so angry, especially since she seems to be so calm and reasoned while she says it (at least to my eyes, but I haven't seen many interviews with her). She must be in shock. Many people, when in shock, seem very calm. Still... ooph... what a terrible thing to say.
posted by Kattullus at 5:53 PM on July 24, 2011


The author whose opinion about Pol Pot being a sociopath is Martha Stout, PhD, instructor on the faculty of the Harvard Medical School for over twenty-five years. Her book, The Sociopath Next Door is well known.


I said narcissistic specifically not he broad term sociopath> But lets follow your breadcrumbs.

Malignant narcissism, your link. ok, looks general and still not really Sars style but lets look deeper into Narcissistic leadership ok, because this is the last time I want to refute your assertions and with data to back it up.

first off,

Michael Maccoby stated that "psychoanalysts don't usually get close enough to [narcissistic leaders], especially in the workplace, to write about them."[6]

did the professor ever get to Phenom Pehn?

A study published in the journal Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin suggests that when a group is without a leader, you can often count on a narcissist to take charge

One attribute of the KR was a leaderless type system which had profound signs of being deathly paranoid by 1979. But the KR, Sar in particular put Sampan as a figure head and it was assumed for many years he led the KR. He was chosen because of his "humble intelligence" and was actually hired by the King of Cambodia.

but I will ask a question that pretty much sums it up. Would a narcissistic madman have other people assume the top leadership role? The KR used pure fear as a tactic to exercise what they thought were corrupt western values like currency, medicine, and family.

If you want to provide a relevant explanation that’s fine but make sure it is accurate to the claims you make.
I too ask you to stop playing detective.
posted by clavdivs at 6:07 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Some of the victims from Utøya:

"Mother Utøya", Monica Bøsei (45), was one of the first people killed at Utøya. She had worked 20 years as a general manager of the company that ran the services at Utøya. The day she was killed, was supposed to have been the second last day at Utøya.

Also killed at Utøya: Isma Brown (20). He had also performed at TV2's "Norway's got talent" earlier this year.

Perhaps less important, but still: the main goverment building in central Oslo. may be too damaged (Google machine translation) for repair.
posted by iviken at 6:07 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Just want to say I appreciate the ongoing updates, iviken.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:16 PM on July 24, 2011


clavdivs: Can I ask you to make sense or at least let this derail die?

I appreciate the contributions that ericb and nickyskye (among many others) make. Many times their contributions flesh out long threads in constant flux. I hope they continue to "play detective."
posted by schyler523 at 6:17 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


London Guardian: Norway gunman claims a London connection and links to the EDL

On the day he was to kill 93 people Breivik wrote: "The old saying; 'If you want something done, then do it yourself' is as relevant now as it was then." A few hours later he added: "I believe this will be my last entry. It is now Fri July 22nd, 12.51." Berwick signed off "AB Justiciar Knight Commander, cell 8, Knights Templar Europe."
posted by thescientificmethhead at 6:21 PM on July 24, 2011


I did not start the derail, trying to correct it.
what's your question, memail if you want.
posted by clavdivs at 6:22 PM on July 24, 2011


Regarding Siv Jensen: remember this strange interview with Ed Miliband? Siv Jensen did exactly the same earlier this year, when she had to comment a sex scandal* involving her party's candidate for Mayor in Stavanger, the #4 city in Norway.

(*sexual intercouse with an underage boy and secretly filming other teenage boys in a shower, in his own house).

___

Just want to say I appreciate the ongoing updates, iviken.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:16 PM on July 24


Thank you so much. I'll try to get some sleep now...
posted by iviken at 6:30 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


When he heard the helicopter sounds, he believed salvation was approaching, but in hindsight, young people learned that it was the media who had hired helicopters to get an overview of the island.

This really really bothers me. The media can get helicopters to swing around and get their film-at-eleven. But the police can't get there.

I know why. I know there are more logistics in getting boots on the ground effectively. But a world where everything is televised really makes me despair.
posted by RedEmma at 6:58 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


Here's a translation of Prime Minister Stoltenberg's speech at the memorial service today:
It will soon be two days since we suffered the worst crime committed in our land since the war. On Utøya and in Oslo. It feels like an eternity. They have been hours, days, nights filled with shock , despair, anger, and tears.

Today the time has come for mourning. Today we must allow ourselves to take account. To remember the dead. To mourn those who are no longer with us. Ninety-two lives have been lost, several people are still missing. Each and every life that has been lost is a tragedy. And together the number of people killed amounts to a national tragedy.

We are still struggling to get to grips with the dimension of what has happened. Many of us know people that have been killed. And many more have second hand acquaintance with someone that was killed.

I knew several of them. One of them was Monica. She worked at the Utøya camp for more than 20 years. For many of us Monica was Utøya. Now she is dead, shot and killed while creating safe and pleasant acitivities for young people from all over the country. Her husband Jon, and daughters Viktoria and Helene, are attending a service in Drammen Church today. It is so unjust! It is important that you know that we are weeping with you.

Another who is gone is Tore Eikeland, leader of the Labour youth league (AUF) Hordaland and one of our most talented young politicians. I remember when he managed to get the whole Party Congress to break out in applause when he held an impassioned speech about postal policy in Europe. Now he has gone. Gone for always. It is quite simply impossible to grasp.

These are just two of those we have lost. Many more lost their lives on Utøya and in the government buildings. Soon we will have the names of all those who died and see images of them. Then the full extent of the evil that has been perpetrated will become clear, in all its horror. It will be a new ordeal. But we will get through that also.

In the middle of all these tragic events, I am proud to live in a country that has stood firm at a critical time. I am deeply impressed by how much dignity and compassion I have seen. We are a small nation, but a proud people. We will never abandon our values. Our reply is: more democracy, more openness, and more humanity. But never naivity.

No one has said it better than the AUF girl who was interviewed by CNN: "If one man can show so much hate, think how much love we could show, standing together."
[source] Translation by journalist Andrew J. Boyle. Here's the quoted CNN interview with Stine Renate Håheim, who is quoting her friend. I hope that if I ever experience something so heinous, I can show such strong moral fortitude.
posted by Kattullus at 7:03 PM on July 24, 2011 [20 favorites]


Meanwhile, an anti-Islamist author comes to grips with discovering Anders Brievik is one of his biggest fans, as well as his neighbor.
posted by anigbrowl at 7:23 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Seems to me that the standard response from the anti-jihad people has been: "This is a terrible thing that we did. Please listen to us so we don't have to do it again."
posted by empath at 7:27 PM on July 24, 2011 [7 favorites]


Thinking about those people who would rather not give this monster any attention, as that is what he seems to crave, I can really understand that feeling but there seems to be, imo, good reason to look closely at this mindset, not for his sake, but for one's own and humanity's benefit, because these evil people do exist in the world and sometimes with tremendous power.

The comparison came up in my mind of going to the dentist and facing the fact that there is an abscessed tooth. The way to heal it is not to deny the awful thing is there but the opposite, go into it with eyes open, thoughtfully, with the intent to know how the problem occurred, expose it, go through the healing process and work constructively towards preventing a recurrence.

It's not often that this type of monster exposes his machinations for the public to read and ponder in such great clarity. Getting pr for his book is as revolting as a serial killer, in prison, profiting off of his gory murders. But this Breivik guy is especially articulate in his pathological hatred, his racism and bigotry, his fundamentalist Right Wing control-freakedness, which is indicative of an entire group of people both in Europe and the USA.

I'd rather not know about this mindset but since it exists, and poses a real threat to the safety of many in the world, it seems like a savvy survival choice to know about this it, analyze it, talk about it with others and maybe out of that knowledge some constructive prevention/solutions can arise?
posted by nickyskye at 7:35 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


It is probably important to know the Forces of Hate and War. I know this. Here's what I'm hearing:

"If you won't be a warmonger, I will hurt you until you are as angry as me. If you won't hate like I hate, I will kill you, or your friends and family members until I make you hate. People who are different from me frighten me, and since you want to make me feel this fear, I will make you fear me. And not only that, I will hunt you down until I force you to choose between your life and someone else's... making you feel the ghost of that guilt and pain until you can't fight me anymore. Your fear of me makes me proud. The fact that I've made you think that my force is legion makes me prouder yet."

We can't let them win.
posted by RedEmma at 7:52 PM on July 24, 2011 [7 favorites]


I don't think he came to grips with anything anigbrowl.

In Norway, to speak negatively about any aspect of the Muslim faith has always been a touchy matter, inviting charges of "Islamophobia" and racism. It will, I fear, be a great deal more difficult to broach these issues now that this murderous madman has become the poster boy for the criticism of Islam.

You're in the Wall Street Journal broaching these issues directly after the attack, you fuck.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:02 PM on July 24, 2011 [14 favorites]


RedEmma, were did you find that qoute.
posted by clavdivs at 8:02 PM on July 24, 2011


because these evil people do exist in the world and sometimes with tremendous power.

I couldn't disagree more. No human being ever has any real, abiding "power" in the abstract sense--least of all pathetic, cowardly child-murdering terrorists like this one. All that even the most ambitious world-conqueror or lowly-squirrel tormentor ever really has is a pathological will to power and the transitory delusion they'll achieve the real thing one day.

In the long run, they're all dead and forgotten, and no more "powerful" than the dust motes they'll leave behind in a few thousand years as their only physical legacy. That's what makes every one of these lamentable horror shows such a bad, pathetic joke: in trying to demonstrate the scope of their power, they belie it.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:15 PM on July 24, 2011


I didn't find it anywhere clavdivs. It is a distillation of what I'm hearing from Breitvik and other anonymous and not-so-anonymous people who think we should die because we won't hate Muslims like they do. We won't fear them like they do.
posted by RedEmma at 8:39 PM on July 24, 2011


Unless you're talking about the helicopter quote, which is this:

"Da han hørte helikopterlyder, trodde han redningen nærmet seg, men i ettertid har ungdommene fått vite at det var mediene som hadde hyret helikoptre for å få oversiktsbilder over øya. "
posted by RedEmma at 8:41 PM on July 24, 2011


As I hinted upthread, you should not feel powerless to prevent this sort of thing, especially living in countries that behave like adults.

There should be a concerted effort to build a European, or at least Scandinavian and Germanic, infrastructure for monitoring hate groups, hate sites, and hate movements worldwide, including like the Tea party. For this, there is actually quite a bit you can learn from hate monitoring groups in the U.S., like the SPLC.

Yet, Europeans should step beyond the mere monitoring that occurs in the U.S. in two ways : An independent hate monitoring organizations could project abstract threats inside Europe by analyzing how the rhetoric, people, etc. move worldwide. Your law enforcement should turn these projections into investigations of specific dangerous individuals and groups, much like they've been doing quite successfully with Islamist groups.

If these efforts are government funded, then you can afford to throw considerably more technology at the problem too, think a Google-esque Markov chain model tracking cut & pastes on hate sites for example.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:43 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


> No human being ever has any real, abiding "power" in the abstract sense--least of all pathetic, cowardly child-murdering terrorists like this one.

What about power in the not abstract, but physical, political, social sense? What about examples like evil, mass murdering Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, Ceauşescu, Milosevic, Suharto, Marcos, the ethnic cleansers and Dick Cheney with his war on Iraq?

Weren't those malignants powerful and also "pathetic, cowardly child-murdering"?
posted by nickyskye at 8:48 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


I guess it depends on what you mean by power. All of them depended on the help and support of many, many other people.
posted by empath at 8:53 PM on July 24, 2011


I guess it depends on what you mean by power

In the political sense, as in these people were in power when genocide, torture, ethnic cleansing, extrajudicial killings under martial law were committed. That sort of power.
posted by nickyskye at 8:59 PM on July 24, 2011


Required viewing:

The Occult History of the Third Reich

It doesn't matter if it's true. If enough people believe, it creates its own twisted truth.
posted by philip-random at 9:19 PM on July 24, 2011


What about power in the not abstract, but physical, political, social sense?

This guy definitely doesn't have "tremendous power" in that sense, though. That's his whole point, right? He doesn't have it but wants it? Otherwise, he wouldn't have needed to shoot these children himself, he could have sent an army (or better yet, had their loyalty from the start).

And honestly, from my perspective, power is all ultimately a delusion. A tempting one, with real-world consequences that can be awful for us, but a delusion all the same.

Forgive the poetic license, but in the big scheme of things, we're all like ants caught adrift on a bit of flotsam on the open sea. We can never really be powerful, no matter how much we might need to delude ourselves into thinking we are in light of the precariousness of our situation, and no matter how much we might find temporary release from the anxiety our inherent powerlessness provokes in abusing our peers, that anxiety always eventually returns. That's why conquerors keep conquering and serial killers keep killing: deep down they know the very acts they commit to delude themselves into feeling more powerful are proof of their powerlessness in the absolute reality of things.

One ant abuses another; does that make the ant "powerful"? No one in our society is any more "powerful," in the bigger picture, than anyone in theirs. And yet, I'm sure even ants take their "power struggles" very seriously for what little they amount to in the end.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:34 PM on July 24, 2011


Skeptic: "My comments being deleted in 3...2...1"

I would delete your comments too, you are being belligerent. Take a breath.


Disagree. This woman is deleting comments from an inflammatory post when it is pointed out to her that she's misrepresenting the facts (if not making them up entirely). Considering the offensiveness of her column coming as it does the day after the tragedy, and with content that seems to excuse the murder's actions by legitimizing his motivation, it's something I'm angry about, too. I thought about registering and commenting there as well, but as she's just deleting anything she dislikes, it seems like wasted energy. But that impulse-- to refuse the listen to facts or to admit making a mistake, to act, in fact, like a mature human being-- is seen far too often in her ideological neck of the woods, and this week of all weeks I can't stand it, either.
posted by jokeefe at 9:41 PM on July 24, 2011 [16 favorites]


Skeptic: "My comments being deleted in 3...2...1"

I would delete your comments too, you are being belligerent.


And I'm fucking proud of it, too! We. Should. Not. Let. This. Shit. Through. Not here. Not now. There are over 90 reasons why not.
posted by Skeptic at 9:59 PM on July 24, 2011 [12 favorites]


This guy definitely doesn't have "tremendous power" in that sense, though.

It seems like you're thinking of power in a spiritual or metaphysically meaningful sense, while I'm thinking of it on a pragmatic level. It would seem we're talking at cross purposes in our take on the concept of power.

Wikipedia offers this definition: Power is a measurement of an entity's ability to control its environment, including the behavior of other entities.

After years of planning his 'martyrdom' and public relations scheming, he murdered 93 people in a day, brought Oslo to a standstill with a well planned bomb, maliciously commanded the attention of a large percent of the planet, certainly hundreds of millions of people's attention (horror) with his atrocities and then, to his manifesto. So in that sense he controlled his environment and the behavior of others.
posted by nickyskye at 10:01 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


Everyone has the power to kill lots of people if they want to do it and obsessively take the time to plan an carry out such an act. He has no more power than you or I or any other human being. He just isn't bound by decency. I refuse to define power as not being bound by decency; that's how sociopaths think.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:10 PM on July 24, 2011 [7 favorites]


it seems odd to control an "enviroment and that of others" by shooting them, if anything it demonstartes a lack of power.
What "enviroment" were you thinking he was thinking to create. One of right-wing unity. One were his acts would be ultimatley be seen as an act of some form of good?

this is not power it is evil.
posted by clavdivs at 10:12 PM on July 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


John Podhoretz, Commentary, 7/22:

The monster and his comrades have the passion to commit their foul deeds. If we respond with dispassion, we are ceding to them part of the animating force that makes us human. If we decide to intellectualize our emotions rather than allow them to influence us, we are turning our back on our responsibility to those whose lives were stripped from them.


John Podhoretz, Commentary, 7/23:

The news that the monster who killed so many kids at that camp in Norway is some kind of lone extremist with extremely peculiar views—a Christian, pro-Israel, anti-Muslim Freemason whose rantings include mentions of contrary schools of thought that don’t exist, like a “Vienna school”—should come as horrible relief to all of us who assumed in the immediate aftermath that this was an act of Islamist terrorism.
posted by neroli at 10:24 PM on July 24, 2011


In the end, we're all dust. So if you take the long view, all any of us can do is keep people from the end or hasten it. In a temporal sense, though, this individual went from anonymous to someone who effected an entire generation of political leaders.

The Port Arthur shooter was responsible for stronger Australian gun laws. Hitler changed politics for generations. Etc. This guy was crazy, and evil, but you can't claim he didn't effect the world - even if this just leads to tougher gun laws and crackdowns on right-wing nuts.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:25 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


> Power can be seen as evil or unjust...
posted by nickyskye at 10:27 PM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


In the end, we're all dust.
No LIB, we are not just dust. We are the children that we raise and their children and the children beyond them. We are the all the ways that we have touched the world and we are all the lives that we have changed during our stay. Every time we wake up and go about our normal business, every time our life touches someone or something else we change the future and we change worlds beyond our understanding. Each and every single one of has the power to change entire futures, entire histories. The Butterfly Effect times six billion. We are so much more than dust LIB.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 10:58 PM on July 24, 2011 [9 favorites]


We are the children that we raise and their children and the children beyond them. We are the all the ways that we have touched the world and we are all the lives that we have changed during our stay. Every time we wake up and go about our normal business, every time our life touches someone or something else we change the future and we change worlds beyond our understanding. Each and every single one of has the power to change entire futures, entire histories.

Entire histories of dust and ashes.
When I saw the headline about this in the local paper - 'You are all going to die.' - I thought the Sun Herald had finally started telling the entire truth. I imagined them using that headline every day until it sunk in.
Than I realized that it was about premeditated, deliberate killing of teenagers and my existential reveries turned to actual horror.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:00 PM on July 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


Pamela Geller:
7/23: "...he started planning this attack nine years ago. I wasn't blogging back then."

7/24: "There is only a single and insignificant reference to me in Breivik's manifesto."
posted by neroli at 11:09 PM on July 24, 2011


Seems that the Norwegian media has kept on using the terms "terrorism" and "terrorist" even after it became clear that the perpetrator was blonde, blue-eyed and right wing. As it should be.
posted by Harald74 at 11:48 PM on July 24, 2011 [24 favorites]


Tory politician who describes blacks as "picaninnies" says "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
posted by rodgerd at 2:04 AM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


Denmark, Iceland and Finland will be joining Norway in one minute of silence at noon (in roughly an hour). An hour later, Breivik is due to appear in court for a hearing.

The number of deaths at Utøya could be adjusted downwards.
An "ocean of flowers" outside of Oslo cathedral.

I just found out yesterday that a close friend of a friend of mine is still missing.
posted by Bukvoed at 2:13 AM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


I just found out yesterday that a close friend of a friend of mine is still missing.

Good luck.
posted by rodgerd at 2:18 AM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


Tory politician who describes blacks as "picaninnies" says "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
posted by rodgerd at 2:04 AM on July 25 [+] [!]


Actually, I broadly agree with BoJo in that piece, because he basically says the exact opposite of Esman, and those articles in the JPost and WSJ. What ultimately drives these fuckers, regardless of their professed ideology, are rarely things like "multiculturalism" but their own personal fears and inadequacies.

This does not excuse those, like fire breathing mullahs, or hate mongering wing nut bloggers, who make a living from providing convenient ideologies of hatred to such misfits. On the contrary.

And if it turns out to be true that this particular bastard turned Islamophobic after his girlfriend left him for a Pakistani, I shall not be the slightest bit surprised.
posted by Skeptic at 3:29 AM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


And good luck, Bukvoed.
posted by Skeptic at 3:30 AM on July 25, 2011


Denmark, Iceland, Finland
and Sweden joined
Norway in one minute of silence at noon
(roughly an hour ago). Only the local hulk on his truck was heard keeping on driving around.

Analyses in the local newspaper this morning are uncommonly well-done and level-headed.

(and good luck, Bukvoed)
posted by Namlit at 4:01 AM on July 25, 2011


I just found out yesterday that a close friend of a friend of mine is still missing.

Fuck. Wish you the best.
posted by Dumsnill at 4:14 AM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Reuters report from Oslo University:
A muffled ripple of applause spread through the crowd as King Harald arrived to sign a book of remembrance, before he and Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg climbed the steps of the neo-classical building, and faced the crowd standing hushed in the summer drizzle.

"In remembrance of the victims … I declare one minute's national silence," Stoltenberg said, standing dressed in black on the steps next to the king and queen, the whole group flanked by two burning torches.

The silence stretched to five minutes as thousands more stood around a carpet of flowers outside the nearby Oslo cathedral. The only sound was the squawking of seagulls and a lone dog barking.

Cars stopped in the streets and their drivers got out and stood motionless as traffic lights changed from red to green.
via Guardian rolling news coverage
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:34 AM on July 25, 2011 [6 favorites]


My friend Anders (NOR). Journalist remembers his former classmate as intelligent and strong-minded.

11 year old stands up to murderer, survives (NOR).

Playing dead among corpses, survivor witnesses ABB approaching the kid.

«Don't shoot me, you've shot enough now. You have killed my dad. Im too young to die.»

«Leave us alone.»

ABB backs away.
posted by klue at 5:50 AM on July 25, 2011 [7 favorites]


Pamela Geller:
7/24: "There is only a single and insignificant reference to me in Breivik's manifesto."


Sadly, no. In the anti-Muslim screed posted by the shooter, I counted thirteen links to Atlas Shrugged.

posted by telstar at 6:24 AM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


A couple of Norwegian voices writing in English:

Thomas Hylland Eriksen: Web groups' tunnel vision

Aslak Sira Myhre: Europe must act on extremism
posted by klue at 7:33 AM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Explaining the drop in the numbers of people killed from 93 to 76, police said it had been difficult to gather information on Utoeya island.
posted by fullerine at 8:21 AM on July 25, 2011


Latest numbers are now 68 persons dead at Utøya and 8 persons in Oslo.
posted by cx at 8:21 AM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


My friend Anders (NOR). Journalist remembers his former classmate as intelligent and strong-minded.

That article was interesting, and also, Google Translate is spectacularly good these days.
posted by empath at 8:24 AM on July 25, 2011


Good luck, Bukvoed.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 8:25 AM on July 25, 2011


Is Anders Breivik in This Photograph?
posted by adamvasco at 8:39 AM on July 25, 2011 [4 favorites]


BBC live: Norway police revise down death toll in twin terror attacks from 93 to 76, citing difficulties gathering information.

From the BBC's Kate Forbes in Oslo: A young Norwegian en route to an anti-racism march tonight in the capital: "There's a lot of us, most of our friends are going. We feel what's lost and we're here to show we are here to stand together."
posted by nickyskye at 8:41 AM on July 25, 2011


cx: Latest numbers are now 68 persons dead at Utøya and 8 persons in Oslo.

That's good news, but in that weird way that absolutely awful news just got a tiny bit less awful, without actually getting any less awful. Infinity is still infinity even if you subtract 12. I'm glad that Breivik killed fewer people than was assumed, but the event is still infinitely sad.

Bukvoed, I hope that your friend is okay.
posted by Kattullus at 8:46 AM on July 25, 2011 [4 favorites]


I agree completely, Kattullus.

From the press briefing just now:
-While the death toll has been lowered, the police are still searching for missing persons.
-The judge allowed Anders Breivik to explain his motive at the habeas corpus court proceeding (which in this case was closed to the public by the judge), but stopped him as he proceeded to make a political manifesto.
-Anders Breivik appeared calm and unemotional. He claims that are two more cells in his terrorist network and he believes he will spend the rest of his life in prison.
-Anders Breivik was put in 8 weeks of detention in complete isolation.
posted by cx at 8:58 AM on July 25, 2011


To clarify the above comment: The judge stopped him as he proceeded to read from his political manifesto, figuring it would take up too much time without adding any valuable information for the decision of detention of a suspect. Out of the eight weeks of detention, four will be in complete isolation.
posted by klue at 9:10 AM on July 25, 2011


Google Translate is spectacularly good these days.

It has some weird glitches, like translating 'Nordland' and 'Oppland' to 'England' and also translating 'Oslo' as 'London'.
posted by knapah at 9:15 AM on July 25, 2011


Thanks.
posted by cx at 9:16 AM on July 25, 2011


Cursing, spitting and threats. During the hours following the terrorist attack, people of foreign origin were harassed by angry Norwegians looking for a scapegoat (NOR).

«Now you're fucked. I hate you fucking niggers,» a man of Somali origin was told. Walking through a park in Oslo, a man of Pakistani origin was greeted with nazi salutes and cursed. A clerk working on a corner kiosk had her neighbor stop by, asking «did you just bomb the city?»
posted by klue at 9:38 AM on July 25, 2011 [4 favorites]


Out of the eight weeks of detention, four will be in complete isolation.

I doubt the isolation will feel like anything new to the guy.
posted by philip-random at 9:39 AM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


Honestly, klue, my first reaction during the confusion of the first hours was that the bombing was radical jihadist in origin and that the killing at the island was a white supremacist revenge attack.

It calls to mind my utter dismay and further shock after 9/11 when so many people became so full of rage they attacked their neighbors. I have always been a fan of middle eastern music, and after 9/11, I got glares whenever I played that sort of music at the store where I worked. Seriously, I was looked at as a terrorism apologist because I played Fairuz. It made me sick.

I understand anger at the perpetrators. I will never understand anger at people who simply look like the perpetrators.

I think the most difficult soul-searching out of this event will come when people have to recognize their own words in those of the Norwegian terrorist. When they'll remember how they responded in the hours afterwards. In the feelings they had in regards to their immigrant neighbors. I desperately hope they don't find themselves thinking secretly, "He had a point, but he went too far."
posted by RedEmma at 9:59 AM on July 25, 2011 [5 favorites]


The massive peace rally is being broadcast live on NRK1. Unbelievable numbers of people. Wonderful to see such a show of solidarity in the aftermath of this tragedy.
posted by knapah at 10:28 AM on July 25, 2011


And, Glenn Beck weighs in, saying that the victims of the Utoya youth camp massacre remind him of the "Hitler Youth"
posted by deadmessenger at 10:29 AM on July 25, 2011


I will weigh in and say that Glenn Beck reminds me of a small puddle of raw sewage.
posted by elizardbits at 10:31 AM on July 25, 2011 [30 favorites]


Out of the eight weeks of detention, four will be in complete isolation.

Complete isolation is wrong for this guy. He should be allowed to hear the call of the muezzin.
posted by Skeptic at 10:38 AM on July 25, 2011


I think the most difficult soul-searching out of this event will come when people have to recognize their own words in those of the Norwegian terrorist.

I'm not that optimistic.

There's a cliche that gets posted to facebook every so often - "soap box, ballot box, ammo box. Use in that order." The terrorist says that his attempts at the ballot box weren't enough. So he went for the ammo box.

Also, "the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants". Mr. Terrorist man repeatedly refers to his liberal enemies as tyrants who, through their "multicultural marxism" impinge on his liberty to be free from living in the same rough geographical area as muslims.

My favorite Tea Party Talking Point - "Don't retreat, Reload!" Mr. Man reloaded several times during the massacre only surrendering when it suit him to.

This guy was the living embodiment of anti-government revolutionary rhetoric writ large.

It's all fun and games until someone takes your favorite treasonous saying to heart and applies it in some practical way.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:38 AM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


Glenn Beck's 9-12 Project

Here's another option now that the kids are out of school: a weeklong seminar about our nation's founding principles, courtesy of the Tampa 912 Project.
The organization, which falls under the tea party umbrella, hopes to introduce kids ages 8 to 12 to principles that include "America is good," "I believe in God," and "I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable."

posted by futz at 10:45 AM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


German tourist rescued teens during Norwegian island massacre -- "'You don't get scared in a situation like that, you just do what it takes.'"
posted by ericb at 10:48 AM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


BECK: And then there was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth or whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing.
posted by futz at 10:49 AM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


VG: 150 000 people at Rådhusplassen square in Oslo, a city with 600 000 people. NRK and TV2 reports that the cell phone networks in central Oslo are overloaded.
posted by iviken at 10:49 AM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


More on German tourist, Marcel Gleffe:
A Tale of Heroism During the Norwegian Massacre.

Norway Shooting: German Tourist Hailed A Hero After Saving 30 Lives.
posted by ericb at 10:51 AM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics?

People who embrace education and transparency in governing? People who care about the younger generation's active and enthusiastic involvement in the politics of their nation? People who eschew clinging to mindless and cretinous mouthings of catchphrases with no actual basis in reality?

i guess those people are commie fascists to him tho.
posted by elizardbits at 10:53 AM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


Seems to me the quote reveals Beck's belief that politics is a necessary evil that children should be shielded from, instead of a hallmark of a functioning society that children should be invited to be involved in.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:01 AM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


My point was that his group, the 9-12 project runs political camps for kids.

And now I am done talking about him.
posted by futz at 11:04 AM on July 25, 2011


My point was that his group, the 9-12 project runs political camps for kids.

No, I totally get that you are pointing out his usual disgusting hypocrisy! I am just refuting his stupid claims because otherwise I just sit around burning him in effigy all day.
posted by elizardbits at 11:07 AM on July 25, 2011 [4 favorites]


BBC: Experts will explore different aspects of Mr Breivik's personality.

"This is someone who clearly has an enormous rage - and the source of that rage will need to be uncovered," says Prof Coid.

He explains that there are basically three diagnoses that could be made: that Mr Breivik is suffering from paranoid psychosis - or a delusional disorder - that he has a severe narcissistic personality or that he is has a schizoid personality disorder.

posted by nickyskye at 11:08 AM on July 25, 2011


Seems to me the quote reveals that Beck has no sense of empathy or compassion whatsoever for the murdered children he just compared to Hitler Youth or their families, and that makes him just another sociopath.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:09 AM on July 25, 2011 [7 favorites]


Richard Spencer (Google cache):
[I]t must be said that [Bervik] is a serious political thinker with a great many insights and some good practical ideas on strategy[.]

[...]

In any case, he is certainly right in characterizing multiculturalism as an ideology of hate.

[...]

I suppose it is possible that in the long run European elites will understand that the glorious multicultural future will not be attained without a great deal of bloodletting and realize they will have to change their ways.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:10 AM on July 25, 2011


That should read "Breivik", of course.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:11 AM on July 25, 2011


Glenn Beck's 9-12 Project

Here's another option now that the kids are out of school: a weeklong seminar about our nation's founding principles, courtesy of the Tampa 912 Project.
The organization, which falls under the tea party umbrella, hopes to introduce kids ages 8 to 12 to principles that include "America is good," "I believe in God," and "I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable."

posted by futz at 10:45 AM on July 25 [+] [!]
I genuinely thought that you were linking to a parody site such as The Onion. I really didn't think that I could loathe Glen Beck any more than I already did. Just been proved wrong. What a sack of shit he is.
posted by humph at 11:11 AM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


He later learned that they were likely shot in the woods above, crawled to the rocks, slipping and falling to the shoreline. Many were found huddled together, hugging each other, as they died from their fatal wounds. Huddled together in death. God bless them.

This is the first time I've had to shut myself down to avoid sobbing at work. This is just too fucking much.

And, Glenn Beck weighs in, saying that the victims of the Utoya youth camp massacre remind him of the "Hitler Youth"

Fuck him. Fuck him right in his stupid loutish mouth.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 11:12 AM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


"I did this for people at home." (Google translation):

Norwegian swimmer Alexander Dale Oen won gold medal at the World Championship today - the first time for a Norwegian swimmer.
posted by iviken at 11:14 AM on July 25, 2011 [5 favorites]


Don't know if this was linked above. A well written eye witness account by a person who was on Utoya: Utøya: English version
posted by nickyskye at 11:29 AM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


Anders Behring Breivik, a perfect product of the Axis of Islamophobia.
posted by ericb at 11:32 AM on July 25, 2011 [6 favorites]


Breivik on his way to the court meeting today. He wears a red Lacoste sweater, but asked the police to drive to his flat and pick up (Google machine translation) his "uniform". The judge said no to his request.
posted by iviken at 11:49 AM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Breivik: A Living Definition Of Christianism
posted by homunculus at 12:07 PM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


futz: "BECK: And then there was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth or whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."

I was curious wtf context could have possibly produced that Beck soundbite.

(Audio is at deadmessenger's link, above. The audio was from "the July 25 edition of Premiere Radio Networks' The Glenn Beck Program".)

I did a very rough running transcription of the rest of the Beck segment.
There doesn't seem to be any context - or amplification:

Straight after the "Hitler youth" crack, Beck continues (promptly misidentifying Geert Wilders as Danish, Wilders is Dutch):

"...it's exactly what I... warned ...last fall..it's actually kind of a famous monolog...it's a very complex theory...it's the monolog where I spoke about Geert Wilders [on Fox] ..one time...Geert Wilders is the politician out of...Denmark, I think? - he's a guy who's very outspoken on Islam and he's warning Europe... we are in deep, deep trouble...I believe Islam the way it is being practised...that's evil... but there are a lot of good muslims...I warned that what was coming in Europe...Europe was also going to go into problems with radical islam because the cities are being over run...in France, the islamic towns or ...sections are getting into the middle management of all of France and this is happeneing all over Europe...they're like on the city councils & the board of education & everything else.. they are squeezing the neck of Europe...multiculturalism is killing Europe...in this monolog I warned.. what was coming to Europe is the right wing...once they got rid of the kings, they didn't replace it with "we the people", they had to replace it with strong government...fascism & communisim, ...left & right..I want to make this very, very clear, this is the act of a madman...there's no difference between him and the 9/11 bombers..."


posted by Jody Tresidder at 12:15 PM on July 25, 2011


Right.

Shorter Beck/Limbaugh/right-wing establishment, generally: "I believe exactly the same things he does, but only he's a dangerous madman."
posted by saulgoodman at 12:42 PM on July 25, 2011 [4 favorites]


Breivik's Balkan obsession
posted by adamvasco at 12:48 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Christian Terrorism: If Muslims are responsible for Islamic terrorism, are Muslim-bashers responsible for the massacre in Norway?
posted by madamjujujive at 12:56 PM on July 25, 2011


Norway Terrorist Is A Global Warming Denier
posted by homunculus at 1:03 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Contrary to what some have written, this crime wasn't entirely unprecedented. There was an eery precedent in what happened in Antwerp on May 11, 2006. Only, in that case, the terrorist was a less meticulous planner and managed to murder "just" two people (including a two-year-old) and injure one before being overwhelmed. Back then, the crime was dismissed as the act of an insane loner, and its ideological background hardly explored. We shouldn't make the same mistake again.
posted by Skeptic at 1:11 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


If Muslims are responsible for Islamic terrorism, are Muslim-bashers responsible for the massacre in Norway?

Totally false equivalency. Most Muslims don't hold the same beliefs as Islamic terrorists, while Muslim-bashers do hold the same beliefs as Breivik, even if they don't advocate violence.
posted by desjardins at 1:38 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Can someone who speaks Norwegian tell me what NOK is supposed to be translated as? For example, in Dumsnill's post: Dette går nok bra, Julie is translated as This is NOK well, Julie. I see NOK in almost every article I read about this tragedy.
posted by desjardins at 1:42 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


And, Glenn Beck weighs in, saying that the victims of the Utoya youth camp massacre remind him of the "Hitler Youth"

It's extremely alarming how many right-wing commentators are saying that Brievik was a psychopathic criminal who could not possibly be a True Scotsman from one side of their mouths, and unashamedly endorsing his viewpoint from the other. Oh sure, they would never shoot innocent kids - they're not Nazis after all, harrumph harrumph - but let's face it (they go on), these kids weren't pure and innocent like ours, were they? Gathering on an isolated island to prepare for their future political destiny...well, it's just like Bohemian Grove or the SS youth brigades, isn't it? Look at how many deaths the ____ists caused in the 20th century - if we allow this kind of thing to go on unchecked, then we all have blood on our hands. Sometimes you have to take a stand...

It's not just in the comments or the 'blogosphere'; there's a tolerance and even frank endorsement of Brievik's actions in numerous mainstream media outlets. He's being treated as a corrective force of nature. Even - perhaps especially - where commentators begin with categorical statements of his insanity or psychopathy, a kind of indirect approval is being expressed: he's mad in the way that religious visionaries are mad, such as Joan of Arc or Viking berserkers or any of a hundred other traditions - to many, it's an elemental, atavistic form of madness, of the Gotterdammerung variety.

Fuck him. Fuck him right in his stupid loutish mouth.

While I find Glenn Beck just as loathesome as you do, I think you should probably take a timeout and lay off the sexual violence imagery as a way of expressing your feelings.
posted by anigbrowl at 1:42 PM on July 25, 2011 [5 favorites]


nok: Probably, surely, hopefully.
posted by Dumsnill at 1:46 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


saulgoodman writes "'I believe exactly the same things he does, but only he's a dangerous madman.'"

There isn't anything wrong with that, an idea isn't somehow responsible for the people who believe in it. I can agree with many of the goals and positions of, for example, Earth First! without condoning their tree spiking activities.
posted by Mitheral at 1:47 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


There are a lot of people who have the idea that '_____ people are inferior and should be driven away or annihilated.' In general I'm a cultural relativist, but you can't really have a peaceful coexistence with an eliminationist philosophy.
posted by anigbrowl at 1:53 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


Can someone who speaks Norwegian tell me what NOK is supposed to be translated as?

nok: Probably, surely, hopefully.

"Nok" can also mean enough; "jeg har fått nok" - I've had enough.
NOK also is short form for Norwegian Krone(r).
posted by iviken at 1:53 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


Childhood friend of Behring Breivik to Dagbladet (Google translation):
"It was a warm and cozy home."
From the (not quite perfect) Google translation of the article:
"Childhood buddy does not know that Behring Breivik has had a lady at all. In 2004, as his friends a picture of him from the gay parade in Oslo, dancing on a bus, and they wondered if he might be gay, but Behring Breivik denied. "

With several photos of Breivik as a young boy and young teen.
posted by iviken at 1:57 PM on July 25, 2011


"Nok" can also mean enough; "jeg har fått nok" - I've had enough.

True, but in the quoted context it clearly does not mean that.
posted by Dumsnill at 2:00 PM on July 25, 2011


It's not just in the comments or the 'blogosphere'; there's a tolerance and even frank endorsement of Brievik's actions in numerous mainstream media outlets.

I know. It's chilling. I've argued for a long time now that people are still underestimating the seriousness of this new right wing movement.

There isn't anything wrong with that, an idea isn't somehow responsible for the people who believe in it.

But if the shared belief is that members of X minority group are a problem to be solved, history has shown that fellow travelers are more than willing to enable the "madmen" who act on those beliefs to seek a "final solution" to the problem.

Over-generalizing when it comes to ideas (as in, firmly believing "no ideas are X," or whatever) can lead to serious mistakes. Every idea is different, and each has the potential to effect the world differently.
posted by saulgoodman at 2:12 PM on July 25, 2011


"Nok" can also mean enough; "jeg har fått nok" - I've had enough.

True, but in the quoted context it clearly does not mean that.


Correct, but I wanted to point out that Google Translate has problems with words that can mean different things, depending on context.
posted by iviken at 2:14 PM on July 25, 2011


An almost surreal silence...

Again, there are no words for the palpable helplessness you can sense emanating from these anguished folks, as they wait they wait to confront Breivik's car outside the courthouse. It sent shivers up my spine.
posted by Skygazer at 2:14 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


barely contained rage too, I should add.
posted by Skygazer at 2:16 PM on July 25, 2011


I expect, from the looks on the faces from that photo, If this madman were exposed, he would be torn limb to limb. It is very understandable.
posted by clavdivs at 2:27 PM on July 25, 2011


Could be what he wants. He did want to drop by his flat to get his "uniform"...
posted by LordSludge at 2:31 PM on July 25, 2011


The following was posted Sunday on the Grand Lodge of Norway website from the Grand Master of Norwegian masons.


The Norwegian Order of Freemasons expressing compassion and care


- I am appalled by the horrible atrocity that was committed in the government district and at the Utøya island, says the Sovereign Grand Master of the Norwegian Order of Freemasons

We are filled with mourning and compassion for those who have been affected and their relatives.

It has appeared in the media that the accused has been a member of the Norwegian Order of Freemasons.

He has now been excluded (expelled) – the exclusion immediately effective.

The exclusion reflects that the acts he is accused of having carried out, and the values that appear to have motivated them, are completely incompatible with what we stand for as an Order.

We build our activity on Christian and humanistic values and want our members to contribute to the promotion of charity, peace and goodness among all people.

The police will of course get all the help and information we can give to contribute to the investigation.
posted by clavdivs at 2:34 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Glen Beck is temporarily trending on Twitter. Not reaching the people it needs to reach, but still.
posted by humph at 2:41 PM on July 25, 2011



Totally false equivalency. Most Muslims don't hold the same beliefs as Islamic terrorists, while Muslim-bashers do hold the same beliefs as Breivik, even if they don't advocate violence.

Agreed. In Dutch headlines the killer was called a "christian fundamentalist". That seemed at least equivalent to how they write about "moslim fundamentalist" killers.

Recently there was a bit of news here about some higher-up/older conservative politicians who vehemently disagreed with their prominent party members/leaders about immigration. The party line is basically that Wilders (our far right politician who was apparently an inspiration to Breivik) is right about the problems, but wrong about the solution. These politicians were arguing that this is extremely damaging. By constantly mentioning that there are huge problems we get the wrong idea. And then you get people like this terrorist who feel totally justified, because doesn't everybody agree that the problems are huge? (that last sentence is my interpretation - they said this before Friday). In fact, the problems aren't huge at all, it is all highly exaggerated in the media and on blogs, and the people that support Wilders the most are the people in white villages who are simply afraid of what they read in the papers about how bad it is.
posted by davar at 2:58 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


davar - what solution do they propose, then? Just curious - inspired by this comment.
posted by desjardins at 3:00 PM on July 25, 2011


Adam Serwer: These bloggers are not directly responsible for the actions of Anders Behring Breivik. But make no mistake: Their school of analysis, which puts the blame on all Muslims for acts of terrorism perpetrated by Islamic extremists, has been fully discredited — by their own reaction to the Oslo attacks. While it’s obvious that few if any of them will take this lesson to heart, the rest of us should — terrorist acts are committed by individuals, and it is those individuals who should be held responsible.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:08 PM on July 25, 2011


desjardins: well, some people will say that they don't provide any solutions, that's why Wilders is relatively popular. This was a reaction to two speeches by prominent politicians. Verhagen, the leader of the CDA, one of the coalition parties, said recently that it is very understandable that people are concerned and afraid and that those concerns should be listened to, bla bla bla. And that of course Wilders solution of putting a fence around the country (figuratively) is short sighted and bad for our society, but still, that doesn't mean that people's concerns are unfounded.

But, small things have changed since Wilders. Wilders would love to forbid head scarfs altogether. That will not happen, but head scarfs are forbidden for uniformed public servants now. There is also a real discussion about forbidding niqab's now and there are other local things like discontinuing subsidized swimming for muslim women. There is less and less tolerance, and it is a more and more accepted view that newcomers should totally and immediately adapt to the Dutch culture (whatever that is).
posted by davar at 3:33 PM on July 25, 2011


I disagree that ideas and leaders aren't responsible for the actions of their adherents. There are ideas and people who directly insight terrorism, hate crimes, etc., but many others provide lighter encouragement or cover.

A Priest/Imam preaching Dominionism/Islamism might not be inciting violence technically speaking, but they've encouraged it. A Christian/Muslim who teaches their children that Christianity/Islam is God's only approved morality has provided 'cover' for future hate crimes, terrorism, etc.

There is a separate group religious people that get along just fine with anyone, including atheists. We therefore apply the terms like Christian and Muslim flexibly depending upon the context, i.e. it might mean providing cover for extremism or it might mean doing good deeds.

We mean diametrically opposite things when we say 'Breivik is a Christian' and 'Jimmy Carter is a real Christian', that's simply the contextual dependence of human language.

Btw, anyone download that video or spot the killer in it?
posted by jeffburdges at 3:36 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants

By that logic, the shooter should be executed. He's the wannabe tyrant here.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 3:40 PM on July 25, 2011


Aftenposten: "Norwegians provoked by Fox News' coverage of terrorism:"
"Islamic terrorism is a problem in Scandinavia, they just closed their eyes to it?"
posted by iviken at 3:41 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


Wilders would love to forbid head scarfs altogether. That will not happen, but head scarfs are forbidden for uniformed public servants now.

Yes, because of course there's nothing less Dutch than headscarves.

Seriously, this is what irritates the heck out of me in Dutch politics. Why doesn't anybody confront Wilders' bullshit? Why is he allowed to get away with such nonsense? Why doesn't anybody say: "Hey, your fears aren't justified. They aren't legitimate. 95% of it is sheer hysteria blown out of all proportion by sensationalist media and opportunist politicians, and the remaining 5% can be dealt with with the same tools of reason and tolerance that have worked so successfully for our country for the last four centuries. It isn't as if religious and cultural friction is something new to our society."

Instead, with only a few honorable exceptions, most other political parties play dead or meekly appease Wilders, acknowledging the "problems" he alleges without actually saying how they themselves intend to "solve" them. No wonder Dutch voters long stopped respecting them.
posted by Skeptic at 3:56 PM on July 25, 2011


Anonymous lashes out at Norway massacre suspect -- "Dubbed Operation UnManifest, the hactivist network's latest campaign is aimed at discrediting the manifesto of Anders Behring Breivik, accused of murdering dozens of people in Norway last week."
posted by ericb at 3:58 PM on July 25, 2011


Umm, their plan sounds terrible.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:02 PM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


Aftenposten: Breivik could be charged for crimes against humanity.
posted by iviken at 4:32 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


Why doesn't anybody confront Wilders' bullshit?

Well, people do, although we could argue about how much and whether it is effective. Front benchers for GreenLeft, the Socialist Party, the social-liberal D66 and Labour especially have been vocal in their opposition to the Freedom Party's ideas. (The effectiveness of Labour's criticisms in particular could be the subject of a separate debate of its own, but I digress.)

Now, the accusations of Quislingism that often target the coalition parties, the conservative-liberal VVD and the Christian Democrats, stem in no small part IMO from the explicit admission in the coalition agreement:
The three parties VVD, PVV and CDA disagree about the nature and character of Islam. The division lies in the characterization of Islam as either a religion or a (political) ideology. The parties accept one another's differing views on this matter and will act according to their own beliefs.
Because Christian Democrats and VVD rely on Wilders' Freedom Party (PVV) for their (single-seat, mind you) majority, they will steer clear of doing anything to piss him off. But they had to get the pesky ideological inconvenience of religious equality — only Article 1 of the Constitution after all — out of the way before they jumped into bed together.

So they invented this sort of legal fiction, where they acknowledge Wilders' view of Islam without actually having to be held to account over it. In my opinion, this selling-out of societal principles for political power is unforgivable.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:36 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


By the way, on reflection I decided I would personally like to broaden my knowledge of European immigration and tensions with Islam, so I posted to AskMe about it. I hope it's okay to mention it here, because if anyone reading here can help out it may benefit others.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:38 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Brevik isn't the only person whose read too much Dan Brown:

'The Knights Templar': Mexico's newest drug cartel

Pictures of the latest objects seized by the police in the Mexican state of Michoacan, revealed that the mysterious 'Knights Templar" drug cartel is more bizarre than most people imagine.

There were four hooded tunics, with a red cross, a metal helmet, and a pamphlet or Templar rule book. This drug cartel claims to draw inspiration from the medieval Christian warriors who fought to protect Jerusalem and the Holy Grail.

No one knows if its founder, Servando Gomez, a school teacher, was a history entuthiast or simply read the Da Vinci Code.

posted by thescientificmethhead at 4:52 PM on July 25, 2011


[your zombie jokes are not funny, please go to MetaTalk if you are having trouble parsing this, thanks.]
posted by jessamyn at 4:57 PM on July 25, 2011 [4 favorites]


From the Telegraph's continuing coverage:

17.24 Jon Snow from Channel 4 News asks why police knew the killer's name by the time they had arrived on the island.

"...he surrendered the moment police called his name 3 minutes after they arrived. What we don't know is how the police knew the terrorist's name before they arrested him."

17.02 Norwegian police say a police guard had been due to be on the island of Utoya during the attacks. Police say they are unsure where they were.

10.20 Anders Behring Breivik,the suspect in Norway's twin attacks that killed at least 92 and wounded 97, says he acted alone, police said this morning, after some witness accounts said a second gunman had taken part in a mass shooting.

But police are still trying to establish whether there was "one or several" shooters at Friday's attack on a Labour Party youth meeting on Utoeya island, northwest of Oslo, police commissioner Sveinung Sponheim told journalists.

"During questioning, he said he acted alone," Sponheim said. "We will try to verify this through our inquiry."
posted by thescientificmethhead at 5:01 PM on July 25, 2011


This was retracted by Snow:
OK folks I have clarified: It was a mistranslation. Police did NOT call the terrorist's name before his arrest: He just came when they called
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:03 PM on July 25, 2011


You know nothing, Jon Snow!
posted by Crabby Appleton at 5:16 PM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


video debate over whether this should lead to the banning of video games

given that Port Arthur lead to stricter gun laws, I'm a bit worried
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:36 PM on July 25, 2011


not that it matters, compared to the tragedy
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:51 PM on July 25, 2011


Photos: The horror in Norway. View with caution. Tragedy in Norway - Alan Taylor - In Focus - The Atlantic
posted by nickyskye at 6:45 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


I had a couple of hours on an airplane and I skimmed through Breivik's manifesto. It's interesting. I now have a much better understanding of violent religious / cultural rhetoric. His writing seems to exactly parallel violent Islamist literature, with his justicar Knights Templar standing in for jihadis and his Christian Europe being a parallel to a New Caliphate. I have some more on this idea (plus some quotes from Breivik) on my blog.
posted by Nelson at 7:04 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


former Aussie PM John Howard and Archbishop George Pell mentioned in manifesto

ironic, since a similar massacre lead to Howard tightening the gun laws
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 7:47 PM on July 25, 2011


Why doesn't anybody confront Wilders' bullshit?

Well, it doesn't help that he lives in a country where a film-maker has in fact been murdered for making a film that was "offensive to Islam". When you have actual extremists murdering people, and threatening to murder people, for criticising their religion, it makes it a bit harder to call "bullshit", you know?
posted by rodgerd at 8:24 PM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


not that it matters, compared to the tragedy

It matters. Unnecessary loss of freedom driven by fear is a consequence of terrorism. A lot of the things that happened in the US legally as a result of 9/11 should rightly be considered part of the tragedy.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:32 PM on July 25, 2011 [5 favorites]



It matters. Unnecessary loss of freedom driven by fear is a consequence of terrorism. A lot of the things that happened in the US legally as a result of 9/11 should rightly be considered part of the tragedy.


In that case, this comes at a bad time. Most of the state Attorney Generals had agreed in principle to an R18 rating for games, but this will give the opponents lots of reasons to oppose it. I suppose the fact that the killer mostly played WoW could be an argument for our side, since there isn't any scheme that would ban that. Still...
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:37 PM on July 25, 2011


Why doesn't anybody confront Wilders' bullshit?

Well, it doesn't help that he lives in a country where a film-maker has in fact been murdered for making a film that was "offensive to Islam".


I don't know much about this Wilder fellow you guys are talking about, but while he may live in a country in which a well known filmmaker was once murdered by a lone fanatic for making a film critical of certain cultural practices associated with Islam, doesn't he now also live in a country in which an anti-immigration fanatic meticulously planned and carried out a major terrorist attack that left somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 innocent people--most of them children under 16--dead just to promote his fanatical anti-Islamic, right-wing manifesto?
posted by saulgoodman at 9:08 PM on July 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


Honestly, if I were to blame a video game, which I would not...I could see making a case for blaming WoW. The single minded dedication over a decade speaks to the grinding nature of an MMO and the precision with which he followed the script he developed for his attack made me feel like he was thinking more like an MMO raid leader than an FPS twitcher.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:11 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


No. Wilders is Dutch.
posted by rdr at 9:11 PM on July 25, 2011


Norwegians provoked by Fox News coverage

"Many users of social media Facebook and Twitter have in recent days expressed strong dissatisfaction against what they believe are disrespectful and directly misleading coverage of the terrorist attacks in Norway in the U.S. news channel Fox News." [Google translate]
posted by warbaby at 10:07 PM on July 25, 2011 [7 favorites]


Skeptic: "Out of the eight weeks of detention, four will be in complete isolation.

Complete isolation is wrong for this guy. He should be allowed to hear the call of the muezzin.
"

Can we have Glenn Beck suffer that fate, too? Pretty pretty pretty please?
posted by symbioid at 10:15 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


The Campers of Utvika, A Tale of Heroism During the Norwegian Massacre, By Anna Reimann and Gerald Traufetter, 24th July, 2011, Der Spiegel.
Marcel Gleffe and his family had been hoping for a week of relaxation at a Norwegian campground. But when gunfire started on an island across the water, he and several others jumped into their boats and began rescuing distraught teenagers swimming for their lives. "It goes without saying," he says.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:33 PM on July 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


a local blogger has gone through and highlighted every reference to gaming in the manifesto. it seems incidental, beyond using WoW as cover
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:48 PM on July 25, 2011


Norway's chief of security police comments on questions about why they didn't catch onto Breivik sooner: "Not even the East German police state would have discovered Breivik in the planning phase" (paraphrased, Norwegian video, sorry).
posted by Harald74 at 11:02 PM on July 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Since I'm bullshit theorizing about WoW...It feels odd to me his toons in WoW were female. The average player doesn't seem to care much about gender in an RPG (most have characters of both genders) but for someone who had so much anti-feminist thought going on it just seems like a really weird choice that all his toons were female.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:08 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Loonwatch on Breivik: - In his own words he was inspired by Andrew Bostom, Robert Spencer, Bat Ye’or, Pamela Geller, Geert Wilders, Ibn Warraq, Serge Trifkovic.
posted by adamvasco at 12:23 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Senior members of the group have admitted that Breivik had extensive links to the far-Right English Defence League, meeting with them in London.
posted by adamvasco at 12:45 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


13 men in Norway has the same or almost the same name as Anders Behring Breivik. Another man with the name Anders Breivik is also from Oslo, in the same age group as ABB - and took part in several shooting competitions.
posted by iviken at 12:51 AM on July 26, 2011


I thought I would try a quick round up about Europe and the Far Right - not worth posting on it's own but relevant here as to how Europe is trending.
Here is a brief guide to Far Right politics in Europe. It is worth checking out the special reports where they exist to get a bit more indepth.
The Far Right made noticeable gains in the 2009 Elections, and Red Pepper provided some analysis.
Just this May Nilüfer Göle wrote an article about The new faces of the European far-right.
Europeans' fear of 'the other' never went away – it was simply hidden by years of prosperity.
Only last December Reuters reported on how the Far-right political parties in Europe are stepping up their anti-Muslim rhetoric and forging ties across borders.
It would be interesting to know how transatlantic links are being forged.
posted by adamvasco at 1:10 AM on July 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


It would be interesting to know how transatlantic links are being forged.

The main nexus is probably the SIOA/SIOE linkage. The relationship between the likes of Pamela Geller and Mark Steyn on one hand and Filip Dewinter on the other. A name that comes forward fairly often in that context is that of Paul Beliën and his "Brussels Journal". The (very) right-wing British Tory Dan Hannan, who enjoys good relations with the Tea Party and toured US talk shows in 2009, warning Americans of the dangers of socialized medicine (much to the alarm of his party leadership), initially flourished in that environment, although he has spent the last three years distancing himself from the most objectionable elements of that constellation.

It isn't the only nexus, though. There's also a Florida/Spain connection, linked to the right of the Cuban exile, which has brought US-style right-wing talk shows to Spanish radio and TV. A big name there is César Vidal, a Florida-schooled Assembly of God minister who became a successful talk show host on, weirdly enough, a Catholic radio. It's a particularly awkward alliance, though, as the pro-Israel, pro-private-sector American wingnuts do not really fit together with the deeply ingrained anti-Semitism and statism of the Spanish far right.
posted by Skeptic at 2:35 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


furiousxgeorge writes "Since I'm bullshit theorizing about WoW...It feels odd to me his toons in WoW were female. The average player doesn't seem to care much about gender in an RPG (most have characters of both genders) but for someone who had so much anti-feminist thought going on it just seems like a really weird choice that all his toons were female."

It could be simple aesthetics. You spend practically all your time in a MMO looking at the back of your toon. So many players prefer that view be attractive and will therefor play toons of the opposite sex exclusively.
posted by Mitheral at 4:28 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Wow. Fox News is really bad, isn't it.
posted by klue at 4:40 AM on July 26, 2011


And the same goes for the New York Times. More guns? That'll fix it! Is the US media run by children?
posted by klue at 4:48 AM on July 26, 2011 [2 favorites]


There has been a lot of interest in what Anders Behring Breivik posted as reader’s comments on this site [document.no]. For the benefit of english readers they have been translated by a professional.

They can all be found here

posted by klue at 5:07 AM on July 26, 2011


How Norwegians decided to deal with their sorrow | This is how Iceland stood by our brothers and sisters in Norway | Reddit thread on the mourning.
posted by nickyskye at 5:49 AM on July 26, 2011


IREHR is organizing a book of condolences to be presented to the Norwegian consul in Seattle and the youth section of the Norwegian Labor Party.
posted by warbaby at 7:29 AM on July 26, 2011


Wow. Fox News is really bad, isn't it.

Right now I don't think anything can beat the badness of a headline I saw appearing at the bottom of the screen in this video from Russia Today that someone was just showing me - go to 0:32. Look. I had to look twice, I had to check again, and yes, I did read it right - here it is:

EXPERTS SAY MULTICULTURALISM POLICY
MIGHT HAVE BACKFIRED WITH CARNAGE

which then around 2:19 is changed to the even "clearer" version:

EXPERTS SAY MULTICULTURALISM POLICY
MIGHT HAVE BACKFIRED CAUSING CARNAGE

I have no words. (I've never watched RT so I don't know what they normally do, it's just one of those extra news channels that are on satellite tv all over Europe.)
posted by bitteschoen at 7:33 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


In the meantime, his defense lawyer says that the "whole case indicated that he is insane." Whatever legal consequences that will have...it may dissipate the political follow-ups somewhat, one hopes, but other than that??
posted by Namlit at 7:37 AM on July 26, 2011


His lawyer says the hearing was closed because his claim of other cells still operating had to be taken seriously. If he had accomplices, he doesn't get to make statements in public as long as the investigation continues. The reason being they don't want to give him an opportunity to pass messages to others that might be involved.

At the same time, his credibility on accomplices is weak because he only started claiming there were others when the possibility of a public appearance was made clear to him. Some police sources speaking off the record stated that he thought he would be tortured and killed shortly after he surrendered.

A guilty but insane verdict followed by successful psychiatric treatment would be one the best possible outcomes in this worst of all cases. Right now the crazy insulates him from his actions.

This NPR article on rehabilitation of Taliban in Pakistan is an example of humane anti-terrorism.
posted by warbaby at 8:19 AM on July 26, 2011



It was all part of a vast left wing conspiracy.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:27 AM on July 26, 2011


Fuck an a. How goddamn depressing is that "vast left wing conspiracy" link? My mom is an avid reader of World Nut Daily. I need to start a conversation about this with her.
posted by NoMich at 8:46 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


A guilty but insane verdict followed by successful psychiatric treatment would be one the best possible outcomes in this worst of all cases. Right now the crazy insulates him from his actions.

I don't understand - do you mean best possible outcome for him? or for Norway? I don't know how the legal system works there but I assume guilty but insane would also mean a reduced sentence?
posted by bitteschoen at 8:56 AM on July 26, 2011


It's his father's fault...
posted by humph at 9:05 AM on July 26, 2011


bitteschoen: I don't know how the legal system works there but I assume guilty but insane would also mean a reduced sentence?

In many legal systems, guilty but insane can work out to an open-ended sentence, where the perpetrator is confined indefinitely, based on a psychiatrical estimation of how dangerous he is likely to be to himself and others.
posted by syzygy at 9:05 AM on July 26, 2011


It's his father's fault...

That is some staggeringly dumb writing c/o Katharine Birbalsingh:

Clearly, something else wasn’t quite right with Anders Breivik. But his father is deeply confused. “How could he just stand there and kill so many innocent people and just seem to think that what he did was OK?” Well maybe he didn’t have a father when he was growing up to teach him the difference between right and wrong. What I want to know is why his father isn’t feeling any sense of remorse for having failed his son.
posted by philip-random at 9:41 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


As usual, you can summarize every pundit's articles about a tragedy like this with:

"This tragedy has confirmed everything I've always believed about everything."
posted by empath at 9:42 AM on July 26, 2011 [11 favorites]


It's his father's fault...

That is a crazypants article.
posted by desjardins at 9:45 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


The cynic in me hesitated to link to it because of the opening spiel:
"Her book, To Miss with Love, is out now."
posted by humph at 9:47 AM on July 26, 2011


It could be simple aesthetics. You spend practically all your time in a MMO looking at the back of your toon. So many players prefer that view be attractive and will therefor play toons of the opposite sex exclusively.

That's the standard issue explanation from guys who play female toons, but I've never quite bought it. I've always thought it's really just part of the fun of an RPG that you can be whoever you want...so why be exactly who you are in real life and not experiment with different races and gender?

If I'm assigning blame to a game, which I'm not, I'm working from the theory that the lines between reality and the game became really blurry. This is a guy who hated women but spent a huge number of hours with one as his avatar. It still feels bizarre to me.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:17 AM on July 26, 2011


I thought lots of guys adopted female avatars to pretend to be lesbians. That was my experience in chatrooms, anyway.
posted by desjardins at 10:19 AM on July 26, 2011


syzygy: ah, thanks. Makes sense now.

Oh god, that Telegraph article is horrendous. And it's not even an article, it's not even an editorial, it's just a personal rant. What's the journalistic part of it? How do people like this get paid to write? There was a time when media had professional standards... and another weird thing called a code of ethics...

I just saw an interview with the father, with police around patrolling the place, pictures of French tabloids saying "this is where he lives" and he is speaking with his face hidden, I think he said he'd speak to tv only on conditions of anonymity (clearly the Telegraph didn't get that part), and he sounded clearly in pain. From the police presence and that tabloid cover, it seems he's likely to be receiving threats already. So, well. Congratulations on the Telegraph for contributing more inanity and cruelty and possibly more fuel for hatred, there was sooo little of it around these days.
posted by bitteschoen at 10:22 AM on July 26, 2011


I read through the diary portion of his screed last night. It was weird, and there was some seriously creepy shit in there. I can't believe the media hasn't latched onto these bits though:
Target practise is likely going to be a problem for many people in certain countries (urban Europeans like us, ouch:). Consider taking a vacation to a country where you are able to train in marksmanship or join a gun club. Simulation by playing Call of Duty, Modern Warfare is a good alternative as well but you should try to get some practise with a real assault rifle (with red point optic) if possible.
and:
I just bought Modern Warfare 2, the game. It is probably the best military simulator out there and it’s one of the hottest games this year. I played MW1 as well but I didn’t really like it as I’m generally more the fantasy RPG kind of person – Dragon Age Origins etc .and not so much into first person shooters. I see MW2 more as a part of my training-simulation than anything else. I’ve still learned to love it though and especially the multiplayer part is amazing. You can more or less completely simulate actual operations.
That's a perfect Nancy Grace scare story right there.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 10:28 AM on July 26, 2011


Most guys who use female avatars see no significance at all in the choice, any more so than the hair color of the toon. If a player had alts I would be shocked if they aren't of mixed gender.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:28 AM on July 26, 2011


Oh god, that Telegraph article is horrendous. And it's not even an article, it's not even an editorial, it's just a personal rant. What's the journalistic part of it? How do people like this get paid to write? There was a time when media had professional standards... and another weird thing called a code of ethics...

It's an English newspaper, don't expect journalism. The Telegraph for many years also published Mark Steyn's screeds, and he's part of the ideological support behind this massacre. The Telegraph is, sadly, becoming little more than the Daily Mail with a posh accent.
posted by Jehan at 10:31 AM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Yeah that article about his father doesn't add much. First, well obviously the people who brought up that guy might have something to do with how he turned out, not only: unless there's some actual mental illness involved, but rather: on top of that. So that part is a total no-brainer and it's silly to waste any web-space on pointing that out to the world in such a "has nobody thought of this bit" type of way.
Apart from that, to dig around in the surface structure of a clearly somehow dysfunctional father-son relationship in order to be able to say "the father is the true bad guy" is downright silly. Hey, know what, I blame my neighbor's great grandfather for cutting down that tree. Come on.
posted by Namlit at 10:32 AM on July 26, 2011


Mooseli has posted Michael Morpugo's reading of his essay for the Norwegian people on BBC Radio 4, "Each of us must face the monster down" (with transcript).
posted by humph at 10:33 AM on July 26, 2011


If you devote your life to spewing anti-Islamic hatred, you should not be surprised if someone comes along and kills in the name of that hatred. In fact, you should expect it.
posted by futz at 10:36 AM on July 26, 2011 [5 favorites]


Mario Borghezio, Italian MEP:
Mario Borghezio, a European Parliament member for the anti-immigration Northern League, said he agreed with Breivik's "opposition to Islam and his explicit accusation that Europe has surrendered before putting up a fight against its Islamisation [... ] some of the ideas (of Breivik's) are good, in certain cases even excellent."
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:40 AM on July 26, 2011



Photos and all too brief summaries
of the victims.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:03 AM on July 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


Wow. "One of the first Utoya victims to be named was 51-year-old Trond Berntsen, the stepbrother of Crown Princess Mette-Marit." I saw a photograph of the Crown Prince and Princess yesterday and was struck by her odd expression.

As one of the youngest feared dead was 14, I assume this means that an early report of two very young children collecting recycling on the island having been among the missing is now considered spurious -- I can't even find that now.
posted by dhartung at 11:37 AM on July 26, 2011


More photos of some of the victims from VG.

Damn, seeing the faces brings chills and tears.
posted by ericb at 12:04 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Lawyer: Anders Behring Breivik, Oslo Terror Suspect, Asks How Many He Killed.
posted by ericb at 12:14 PM on July 26, 2011


In video clips from the press briefing by Geir Lippestad, Breivik's lawyer, he looks just about ready to kill Breivik. It's quite extraordinary that he still serves as his lawyer. This speaks well of Lippestad's character and integrity, though I can't help but think that this must be hard on his psyche.
posted by Kattullus at 12:35 PM on July 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


Will the state pay for his defense like they will here if he's indigent? I can't imagine his family or friends (?) starting a legal fund. Well, I wouldn't put it past some Internet nutjobs, I guess.
posted by desjardins at 12:38 PM on July 26, 2011


Would Geir Lippestad be allowed to refuse to defend him? Can Breivik "sack" him during the trial?
posted by humph at 12:46 PM on July 26, 2011


Can Breivik "sack" him during the trial?
Yeah, Lippestad said something during today's interview to that effect. Maybe he thinks that his idea that Br. is "insane" may not go too well with the accused, what do we know. Lippestad struck me as gruff during the interview (no easy job. I know).
posted by Namlit at 12:58 PM on July 26, 2011


Thanks Namlit (hard of hearing + no captioning = me fuzzy on some of his comments).

He looks a little shellshocked, I can't imagine what he must be thinking/feeling.
posted by humph at 1:04 PM on July 26, 2011


Glenn Beck Defends His Hitler Comparisons.
posted by ericb at 1:14 PM on July 26, 2011


Norway killer could be held in 'luxury prison' -- "Anders Behring Breivik could be jailed in one of the world's most progressive prisons, where inmates enjoys cells equipped with flat screen televisions, minifridges and designer-style furniture."
posted by ericb at 1:19 PM on July 26, 2011


O'Reilly Shreds Media for Calling Norway Terrorist 'Christian'.

Reminders That Norwegian Terrorist Was A Christian Makes Some People Defensive.

Note To Conservatives: Anders Breivik Is A Christian.
posted by ericb at 1:29 PM on July 26, 2011


Conservative Comes To Terms With What Oslo Killer Posted On His Site.
posted by ericb at 1:32 PM on July 26, 2011



Oh god, that Telegraph article is horrendous. And it's not even an article, it's not even an editorial, it's just a personal rant. What's the journalistic part of it? How do people like this get paid to write? There was a time when media had professional standards... and another weird thing called a code of ethics...


well... it's a blog.
posted by Bwithh at 1:37 PM on July 26, 2011


Norway killer could be held in 'luxury prison' -- "Anders Behring Breivik could be jailed in one of the world's most progressive prisons, where inmates enjoys cells equipped with flat screen televisions, minifridges and designer-style furniture."

Good. If there is any possibility that this man can come to acknowledge the horror of his actions it will be in a humane justice system like Norway's.
posted by knapah at 1:42 PM on July 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


Will the state pay for his defense like they will here if he's indigent?

Yes.

---

Meanwhile, an anti-Islamist author comes to grips with discovering Anders Brievik is one of his biggest fans, as well as his neighbor.
posted by anigbrowl at 7:23 PM on July 24 [1 favorite +] [!]


This is what Bruce Bawer writes in the WSJ:

"Norway, like the rest of Europe, is in serious trouble. Millions of European Muslims live in rigidly patriarchal families in rapidly growing enclaves where women are second-class citizens, and where non-Muslims dare not venture. Surveys show that an unsettling percentage of Muslims in Europe reject Western values, despise the countries they live in, support the execution of homosexuals, and want to replace democracy with Shariah law. (According to a poll conducted by the Telegraph, 40% of British Muslims want Shariah implemented in predominantly Muslim parts of the United Kingdom.)"

Some well known Norwegian Muslims:
- stand-up comedian Shabana Rehman
- football player "Moa"
- businessman Tommy Sharif
- politician and charity worker Aslam Ahsan


I think these people are more representative for Norwegian Muslims in general than the scary, faceless islamist crowd Mr Bawer claims is taking over his adopted hometown.

---

Norway killer could be held in 'luxury prison'

At least yesterday, Breivik was in the old prison in central Oslo. (Somewhat ironically, the second largest mosque in Norway is right across the street from the prison.) According to Norwegian papers, he could be moved to Ringerike prison. For some strange reason, Ringerike prison was called "Norway's Guantanamo" (Google translate) back in 2006 by Al-Jazeera. Ringerike prison is located by the lake Tyrifjorden, and Utøya is in this lake.
posted by iviken at 1:53 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


The Norway Shooter’s Zionist Streak
posted by homunculus at 1:53 PM on July 26, 2011


"Norway, like the rest of Europe, is in serious trouble. Millions of European Muslims live in rigidly patriarchal families in rapidly growing enclaves where women are second-class citizens, and where non-Muslims dare not venture. Surveys show that an unsettling percentage of Muslims in Europe reject Western values, despise the countries they live in, support the execution of homosexuals, and want to replace democracy with Shariah law. (According to a poll conducted by the Telegraph, 40% of British Muslims want Shariah implemented in predominantly Muslim parts of the United Kingdom.)"

I preferred it in the original German.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 2:01 PM on July 26, 2011 [11 favorites]


From the New Yorker:
No, the E.D.L. ... does not condone the murders of civil servants and summer campers. But the E.D.L. and groups like it do contribute to the creation of worlds, online and actual, in which people like Breivik find reinforcement. They foster a community in which openness and tolerance are called treachery and threats to the nation’s well being. They gather kindling, but shrug when there’s a fire.
posted by jokeefe at 2:07 PM on July 26, 2011 [5 favorites]


I think that was one of the most appropriate Godwins I have ever seen.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:09 PM on July 26, 2011 [6 favorites]


Over 21,000 people have joined a Facebook support group for Behring's mother and closest family.

Translation by me:
I disse tunge stunder for deg og resten av nasjonen vil vi i denne gruppen at du skal vite at vi tenker på deg, du også er en av de pårørende. Du er også hardt rammet, du også er en av ofrene, du også er en av de som skal bli møtt med mer omsorg, mer kjærlighet og mer omtanke.

In these difficult times for you and the rest of the nation we in this group would like you to know that we're thinking of you, you are also one of the next of kin. You have been struck hard, you're also a victim of this, and you're also one of those who shall be met with more support, more love and more compassion
posted by Harald74 at 2:10 PM on July 26, 2011 [4 favorites]


Oh god, that Telegraph article is horrendous. And it's not even an article, it's not even an editorial, it's just a personal rant. What's the journalistic part of it? How do people like this get paid to write? There was a time when media had professional standards... and another weird thing called a code of ethics...

>>Bwithh: well... it's a blog.

It's bit more than just a random blog, incredibly.

According to The Guardian, in a Feb 2011 interview with her, Katharine Birbalsingh "was hired by the Telegraph to write about education". (This was on the basis of a sensational speech KB made at a Conservative Party Conference about how crummy schools fail pupils.)

In March 2011, KB published a book - a fictionalized - for "legal reasons", i.e. to protect the identities of pupils & teachers she describes - which takes the form of a personal diary of her 12 years in teaching (at crummy London schools.) Except apparently bits of the "personal diary" relate the teaching experiences of other teachers too.

The Feb 2011 Guardian interview was not impressed:

"The book makes some bold assertions – for example, that teachers don't discipline black kids for fear of being called racist – which may well be true. But when I ask on what evidence [KB] bases this claim, she says, "Oh no one ever says it. But you can just tell. You just know."

It's my impression that the peculiar stuff she wrote in the Telegraph rant, about Breivik's father's being partially responsible for his son's madness, comes from the same "journalistic" evidence.

It's just stuff you "can just tell, You just know."
posted by Jody Tresidder at 2:21 PM on July 26, 2011 [4 favorites]


A childhood friend of ABB says to the local paper Aura Avis and VG:
- [He used to] spit in the basement, pee into the neighbor's shed and have great pleasure in killing ants, she says.
Although there are many other children who bothers cats or kills ants, Anders pushed the limits. I remember him as cold and hard, Engelsrud says to VG Nett.

- I remember that my dad was worried about Anders and wondered how it would go with him. He was not worried about her sister. It was Anders, she says to VG Nett.


---
Wikipedia on childhood precurors for psychopathy:
The three indicators — bedwetting, cruelty to animals and firestarting, known as the Macdonald triad — were first described by J.M. MacDonald as "red flag" indicators of psychopathy and future episodic aggressive behavior. However, subsequent research has found that bedwetting is not a significant factor.

---
Wikipedia on the "Macdonald triad":
Although other studies have not found statistically significant links between the triad of violence and violent offenders, many serial killers exhibited these behaviors during childhood. Contract killer Richard Kuklinski, serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer and serial killer Dennis Rader all engaged in acts of animal cruelty.(...)

FBI Special Agent Alan Brantly believed that some offenders kill animals as a rehearsal for killing human victims. Animal cruelty is mainly used to vent frustration and anger the same way firesetting is. Extensive amounts of humiliation were also found in the childhoods of children who engaged in acts of animal cruelty. During childhood, serial killers could not retaliate towards those who caused them humiliation, so they chose animals because they [animals] were viewed as weak and vulnerable. Future victim selection is already in the process at a young age. Studies have found that those who engaged in childhood acts of animal cruelty used the same method of killing on their human victims as they did on their animal victims.

posted by iviken at 2:24 PM on July 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


Meanwhile, in the U.S.: A Florida-based "anti-terror" group took to the Capitol on Monday to warn Americans about "fifth column" Muslims who it said are pulling the strings of mainstream Muslim organizations and trying to take over the United States.
posted by homunculus at 2:40 PM on July 26, 2011


Over 21,000 people have joined a Facebook support group for Behring's mother and closest family.

More than 35 000 has joined a Facebook support group for his defense attorney.

"First and foremost, I would say that this is a group that certainly does not support the actions, visions or something of the perpetrator stands for.

We are however strongly opposed to rumors that Geir Lippestad have received hate speech. This is no time for hate, it's time to stand together. Geir Lippestad has just taken on the job as a lawyer, and has a right to not be identified with the perpetrator or what he stands for.

This group has been created to show support for the defense attorney Geir Lippestad, who has undertaken the difficult job to defend the man who carried out these actions. We give our support to him because he does an important job to ensure that the law is followed and that there is a fair trial."
posted by iviken at 2:40 PM on July 26, 2011 [6 favorites]


Facebook sure does have a lot of users.
posted by smackfu at 2:41 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Facebook sure does have a lot of users.

Facebook statistics for Norway:
Total Facebook Users: 2 457 160
Penetration of population: 52.54%
Penetration of online pop.: 55.45%
posted by iviken at 2:51 PM on July 26, 2011


Meanwhile, Mario Borghezio, a European parliamentarian who belongs to Italy's populist Northern League party, told a mainstream Italian radio station that he sympathized with some of Breivik's ideas.

"Some of the ideas he expressed are good — barring the violence — some of them are great," he told Il Sole-24 Ore radio station.

The Northern League, the junior partner in Premier Silvio Berlusconi's government, has caused a stir with its increasingly virulent anti-immigrant, anti-Islamic rhetoric.
(via)

The Italian MEP Mario Borghezio, who is part of the Europe of Freedom and Democracy group which includes Ukip, caused outrage when he said: “One hundred per cent of Breivik’s ideas are good, in some cases extremely good. The positions of Breivik reflect the views of those movements across Europe which are winning elections.” A Ukip spokesman called the comments “reprehensible”.
posted by iviken at 3:02 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


I think that was one of the most appropriate Godwins I have ever seen.

I linked to the documentary Occult History of the Third Reich a while back in this thread. I think it really is required viewing for anyone who wants to come to grips with just how deep the Master Race bat-shit-insanity goes (and how far back).
posted by philip-random at 3:08 PM on July 26, 2011


how deep the Master Race bat-shit-insanity goes (and how far back).

From the intro to the first episode:

"People set us down as enemies of intelligence," proclaims Hitler. "We are, but in a much deeper sense that those conceited dolts and bourgeois scientists ever dream of [...] The old beliefs will be brought back to honor again, the whole secret knowledge of nature, of the divine, of the shapeless, the demonic. We will wash off the Christian veneer and bring out a religion peculiar to our race."
posted by philip-random at 3:16 PM on July 26, 2011


Having watched ABB's video, I get the impression that ABB is much more influenced by ideas from the Crusades than those from the Third Reich.
posted by telstar at 3:28 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Early snapshot of Brevik facebook profile does not show "Christian" and "Conservative" interests.

Blog: Clearly someone added the Christian / Conservative portions and these happened just before the profile was removed. The next question is, who had access to the profile in this time?
posted by thescientificmethhead at 3:28 PM on July 26, 2011


A link to Atlas Shrugged? Come the fuck on.

I looked at the profile while it was still on Facebook, when the first link was making the rounds. I would take that over a screenshot supposedly taken earlier, likely modified, and then circulated as some kind of "evidence" of tampering. Jesus.
posted by jokeefe at 3:50 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


Oh, and the profile-- while it was still available *on Facebook* clearly listed "Christian" and "Conservative". Along with the 17,000 hours of supposed study, the "equivalent" of whatever degrees he was claiming, which we now know to have been the composition of his book..
posted by jokeefe at 3:52 PM on July 26, 2011


Seriously, thescientificmethhead, don't bring that shit here.
posted by jokeefe at 3:55 PM on July 26, 2011


Oh, and finally-- your link to Solid Principles would seem to be undone by a correction/update posted in Solid Principles itself: "Breivik’s profile was not changed after his arrest – the differences are related to whether or not that profile was viewed whilst logged-in to Facebook”.
posted by jokeefe at 4:06 PM on July 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


If you doubt his Christianity, then search his manifesto for Christian (509 pages), Norse (4 pages), and Odinist (6 pages). Norse's first three results are completely inconsequential, but the final result makes his Christianity unambiguously clear. Odinist's first result makes his Christianity even more unambiguously clear. His sequence of facebook updates is irrelevant.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:07 PM on July 26, 2011


Here you go jokeefe.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 4:12 PM on July 26, 2011 [8 favorites]


Ha!
posted by jokeefe at 4:17 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


jokeefe why did you have to write that you were still jokeefe, that part was weird
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:50 PM on July 26, 2011 [3 favorites]


Sociopathic traits:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

posted by nickyskye at 5:58 PM on July 26, 2011 [4 favorites]


Surveillance video from nearby store being hit by shockwave.
posted by klue at 6:53 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


The following characteristics of a psychopath, defined by Hervery M. Cleckley in 1941 in the book Mask of Sanity include:

•Superficial charm and average intelligence.
•Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
•Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
•Unreliability.
•Untruthfulness and insincerity.
•Lack of remorse or shame.
•Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
•Poor judgement and failure to learn from experience.
•Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love.
•General poverty in major affective reactions.
•Specific loss of insight.
•Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations.
•Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without.
•Suicide threats rarely carried out.
•Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated.
posted by clavdivs at 9:13 PM on July 26, 2011 [1 favorite]


iviken writes "Facebook statistics for Norway:
"Total Facebook Users: 2 457 160
"Penetration of population: 52.54%
"Penetration of online pop.: 55.45%"


Facebook has retention problems. I'd be interested to see what percentage of facebook users accessed the site in the past month.
posted by Mitheral at 9:50 PM on July 26, 2011


Norway killer could be held in 'luxury prison'

VG: Breivik will not be held at the new "luxery prison" in Halden, but at Ila prison, just outside Oslo.
"The government has considered various prisons for Breivik.
Ringerike prison will often accept the worst criminals, but authorities turned that option down quickly , sources told VG. It would simply be too provocative to place him in a prison overlooking Tyrifjorden - not far from Utøya where he massacred innocent youths."

(The adress to the prison is Jøssingveien 33, named after the term "Jøssing:
"During the war [WW2], the term Jøssing came to mean a Norwegian patriot, the opposite of a Quisling (or traitor). The origin of this term is ironic: the Norwegian collaborator government tried to neutralize their nickname Quislings by using the Jøssingfjord event to coin a derogatory term Jøssing, referring to anti-nazis. This attempt backfired.

As a consequence, the most famous illegal Norwegian newspaper got its name from the same incident: The Jøssingpost (Jøssingposten)
."

During WW2, Nazi Germany used the premises for Ila prison as the first concentration camp in Norway, Grini. One of the people who were imprisoned there during the war, was the architect Erling Viksjø. His best known work is the two main buildings in Regjeringskvartalet, where Breivik set of his fertilizer bomb. Several social democratic policitians, including later prime minister Einar Gerhardsen, were also imprisoned at Grini during WW2. The plaza outside the now bombed buildings is named after Gerhardsen.)
posted by iviken at 1:09 AM on July 27, 2011 [8 favorites]


More shit from Italy.
Francesco Speroni, a leading member of the Northern League, the junior partner in Berlusconi's conservative coalition, said: "Breivik's ideas are in defence of western civilisation."
posted by adamvasco at 9:14 AM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


What will happen to all the roses in Oslo?
posted by iviken at 9:18 AM on July 27, 2011 [4 favorites]


From iviken's link, "All items were donated to a museum in the city and set out, while all the candle remains were given to a monastery and cast into 63 large candles - one for each child who perished.

- All the roses we put in a special compost that gradually turned into soil that we brought back to the place and planted two trees, outside the premises where the accident occurred, said Lars Lilled the Gothenburg municipality."


I think something like this would be a wonderful idea.
posted by knapah at 9:42 AM on July 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


Stoltenberg: Norwegian State will pay for victims' funerals and memorial services
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:52 AM on July 27, 2011


Random thought: Can't help being reminded of The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo cast of villains, even though they were of Swedish extraction.

Before Death, Acclaimed "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" Author Stieg Larsson Lamented Right-Wing Extremism
posted by homunculus at 9:57 AM on July 27, 2011 [4 favorites]


Wow, the English-speaking world's right wing just can't wait to queue up and explain how it's all the victims' fault, can they? I f only the Norwegians were more racist, if only they ran more brutal prisons, if only they allowed concealed carry, if only, in short, like they'd followed the fetishes of the US and UK right, this wouldn't happen apparently.

Except here's an interesting fact: even with this massacre, Norway's rate of homicides per 100,000 is lower than the US' in any given year. It may not even reach that of the UK. Turns out guns, racism, and brutality still don't look that flash.
posted by rodgerd at 11:50 AM on July 27, 2011 [6 favorites]


Chilling text exchange provides window into Norway terror -- "'Mummy... people are dying here.'"
posted by ericb at 12:00 PM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


"On Wednesday, the Daily Mail reported that Breivik had consumed a cocktail of drugs prior to his attack in order to be 'strong and efficient,' according to the defense lawyer. Breivik had plotted to inject poison into the bullets during the attack, though it was unclear whether he had actually done so. He wore a police uniform to draw young campers to him, and appeared in total control during the island rampage, police official Odd Reidar Humlegaard said."*
posted by ericb at 12:06 PM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


ericb: He was on steroids and ACE stacks in the months leading up to the attack. At one point, he tried to inject his bullets with nicotine, but became discouraged and gave up when he realized that he couldn't fit a fatal dose into a .223 soft point round.

Creepy evil fuck.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 12:21 PM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


NRK: Hotel Employees receive psychological help.

"Police praise unencumbered by the hotel within few minutes was turned completely upside down.

- The people at Sundvolden hotel were exceptional. They took care of catering, provided room and helped us with many practical matters so that we were able to concentrate on our work, says police chief Kjell Magne Tvenge at Hønefoss police."
posted by iviken at 2:33 PM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


Norway attacks: Anders Behring Breivik will join history's human monsters.

by Henning Mankell.

Also his wiki page has this:

"Nationalism is almost spiteful in nature. It can sometimes be glimpsed as something brown behind the waving Norwegian flags."
posted by clavdivs at 2:36 PM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


Was Labor Youth Camp Anti-Israel?
posted by empath at 2:36 PM on July 27, 2011


President Obama:
To the People of Norway —

We are all heartbroken by the tragic loss of so many people — particularly youth with the fullness of life ahead of them. No words can ease the sorrow, but please know that the thoughts and prayers of all of American [sic] are with the people of Norway, and that we will stand beside you every step of the way.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:49 PM on July 27, 2011


I have always liked Henning Mankell. Thanks for the link.
posted by futz at 2:52 PM on July 27, 2011


empath, that was an odious thread.
posted by dhartung at 2:59 PM on July 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I have read other "articles" that the Labor Youth camp had anti Israel protest thing going on but they seemed sketchy. I was waiting to see if anything else emerged from a credible source.
posted by futz at 3:21 PM on July 27, 2011



"Nationalism is almost spiteful in nature. It can sometimes be glimpsed as something brown behind the waving Norwegian flags."


The context for this quote was an interview in VG, but it seems this interview was only published in the paper edition. Historically, the Norwegian flag has never been "owned" by right wing extremists. During WW2, the Quisling regime restricted use of the Norwegian flag.

Article by Usman Chaudhry from Blend, a Norwegian multi-cultural magazine:

"July 22 2011, in all the misery I discovered who I am. (...) I am Norwegian." The article is illustrated with a photo of the Norwegian flag. The writer is a Muslim, his parents were born in Pakistan.

---

Was Labor Youth Camp Anti-Israel?

(Btw, photo #2 in that link shows some activists with a banner from "Sosialistisk Ungdom", not AUF.)

Agree with them or not, AUF basically wants Israel to return to the 1967 borders. Is that being "Anti-Israel"? I believe the term "anti-Israel" actually refers to people who want to dissolve the state of Israel. AUF has never suggested that.

Google translation of a of AUF leader Eskil Pedersen's blog. (The first part of the blog post refers to "class struggle", but that's a machine translation of the name of the paper where this was published first, "Klassekampen".)
posted by iviken at 3:42 PM on July 27, 2011 [3 favorites]


futz, it's clear that when the foreign minister of Norway attended, the day before the massacre, he was met with political demands that, if you're a dolt, are "anti-Israel" -- demanding a Palestinian state and implementing a boycott so as to force Israel back into peace talks.
posted by dhartung at 3:44 PM on July 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


I did wonder if he might have manufactured his killing state with drugs rather than just being a stone cold sociopath (or acme media sanctified nutjob), he seemed very much into controlling all the other aspects of his attack to ensure success.

Surely he must had a few shorted connections to even conceive doing what he did; but I don't think it's necessarily true that he was just an a-priori time bomb, waiting and fated to go off and kill his alloted 76. I really don't think it's the case that he was just who he was, and if he hadn't fallen into the absurd and disgusting paranoid delusion he did, he would have still have done what he did from falling into some other one, such as Pastafarianism. All delusions are not equal.

The whole randian/thatcherian belief that A is just A, and there is no such thing as society doesn't hold.

We are all subjects of our narratives.

Anders Breivik was a true believer of what to him was a convincing narrative. One which lead him to believe that he, his own, and his entire way of life was facing a real existenial threat, he was a soldier in the face of cultureal (and probably actual) genocide. Which is exactly how the narrative in question is portrayed.

Faced with such a threat even the most rational of us would shift our immediate morality a little. People do things while living and believing in the narrative of war that would be inconceivable otherwise. The holocaust is the easy example of the banality of evil. But it's not that, it's the banality of apparent necessity. The firebombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, the death penalty. All normalised and 'acceptable' forms of killing.


Anders Breivik's actions were political, and by their very nature political acts have to be bigger than the personal.

To clarify though: I am not necessarily trying to put the blame on those that created the narrative he acted in the name of, life is complex, people are complex and often dumb, and you can't generally find single factor explanations for insane actions. ...but personally, I suspect there is a significant probability that he did exactly what he did because of the lies he believed. And those lies have deep roots and wide branches.

Boycotting Israel can be (and in many settings is) like taking the car keys off a drunk friend. To suggest that it is anti-israel is disingenuous twaddle unless there is further evidence.
posted by titus-g at 3:52 PM on July 27, 2011 [5 favorites]


Thank you for clarifying. All I saw were the anti-Israel "headlines". I never delved into it because I thought the timing was atrocious.
posted by futz at 3:54 PM on July 27, 2011


A great photo; the tram couldn't get past the Oslo Cathedral during the memorial Monday. (Photo from Rool.no. but their server is down right now...) The tram driver couldn't get past the Cathedral because of the crowds, so he just stopped the tram, went outside and talked to people for two hours.
posted by iviken at 4:02 PM on July 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


All the roses we put in a special compost that gradually turned into soil that we brought back to the place and planted two trees, outside the premises where the accident occurred, said Lars Lilled the Gothenburg municipality

Tears came rushing into my eyes when I read that. Aww, compost for trees. Unpretentious and authentic that. I feel so grateful to the Norwegian people who have been thoughtful, loving, mature and steady in their desire to remain open-minded throughout this nightmare. What a marvelous example they are to the world.
posted by nickyskye at 5:00 PM on July 27, 2011


Extreme narcissistic personality disorder, says professor (Google translate)
posted by warbaby at 5:14 PM on July 27, 2011 [1 favorite]


Nickyskye, the rose compost idea was originally from Gothenburg, Sweden, after the Gothenburg discothèque fire. 63 people died and around 200 people were injured.

There will be a permanent July 22 memorial in Oslo, and Oslo city council leader Stian Berger Røsland says to Aftenposten that compost earth from the flowers could be used there.

I was in central Oslo yesterday, and there's flowers almost everywhere: the largest flower memorial is outside the Oslo Cathedral, but there's also a large collection of flowers attached to the temporary fences near the damaged goverment buildings, outside the Labour Party's building, in front of the Parliament, on the edges of the fountains outside City Hall... even on some random ledges in Studenterlunden park.

Also in the news, a 93 year old woman, Åsta Sørås, (VG, NRK) became a member the Labour party for the first time, in sympathy with the victims. Ms. Sørås is old enough to remember how Norway used to be. Unlike ABB, she's clearly not scared of Muslims.
posted by iviken at 5:38 PM on July 27, 2011 [5 favorites]


I did wonder if he might have manufactured his killing state with drugs rather than just being a stone cold sociopath (or acme media sanctified nutjob), he seemed very much into controlling all the other aspects of his attack to ensure success.


From what I understand (and I may be wrong) the armor, the music, and the drugs may have put him in an unreal state, where life was closer to a videogame then reality. But that's just a theory...
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 5:50 PM on July 27, 2011


Extreme narcissistic personality disorder, says professor

Thanks for the validation.
posted by nickyskye at 9:30 PM on July 27, 2011


LIB, I haven't read about what he has or hasn't taken, but criminals using beta-blockers and rohypnol to steady themselves before criminal acts, and to be more easily capable of "taking care of business" is fairly established practice in Sweden from what I understand.
posted by Iteki at 10:16 PM on July 27, 2011


In Norway, the Past Is a Foreign Country

by Jo Nesbø
posted by tykky at 11:40 PM on July 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


Varg Vikernes provides long awaited comic relief.
posted by klue at 2:12 AM on July 28, 2011


More comic relief, sort of:

MORRISSEY has sparked outrage after saying the tragedy in Norway was “nothing” compared to the actions of fast food chains.

The controversial singer, 52, made his remark while on stage at a gig in Warsaw on Sunday night.

Before launching into his hit Meat is Murder, the outspoken vegetarian made reference to the horrific events last Friday.

Referring to the death toll as thought at the time he said: “We all live in a murderous world, as the events in Norway have shown, with 97 dead. Though that is nothing compared to what happens in McDonald’s and Kentucky Fried S*** every day.”

(...)
A spokesman said last night: “Morrissey has decided not to comment any further as he believes his statement speaks for itself.”
posted by iviken at 2:57 AM on July 28, 2011


Conclusion? The guy's too cheap to pay for PR people, or too egocentric to listen to them. Very clumsy, creepy crap.
posted by taz at 3:20 AM on July 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


Cato Kristiansen is the prison chaplain at Ila prison. He's known as "Cato Priest". In 2009 he received the award "Vesleblakkenprisen" for his humanitarian work, including leading a campaign against racism in the early 1990's in his home community Brummunddal. When anti-immigrant activist Arne Myrdal came to Brummunddal (population: 8731) for a public demonstration in 1991, 4000 local people showed up in a quiet counterdemonstration: they turned their back to Myrdal during his speech.

December 2010: "Cato Priest" performed a wedding in a log cabin, in the middle of Finnskogen forrest, a forrest named after immigrants from Finland. From the Wikipedia article:

"In 1709 General Hausmann so distrusted them [the Finnish immigrants] that he ordered they all be evacuated from Solør. The bailiff declined to evict them on the basis that they were subsistence farmers and so poor they would have starved if moved from the land they customarily used.
By the 20th Century the blood had so intermingled that it was probably impossible to find inhabitants of pure Finnish descent in the Finnskogen."
posted by iviken at 4:32 AM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Remi Nilsen editor-in-chief of Le Monde diplomatique, Oslo asks Is there something "extreme" in Norwegian society?
posted by adamvasco at 4:36 AM on July 28, 2011


Interview with Per Angel, leader of the victim identification group: "The cell phones are still ringing."
posted by iviken at 4:47 AM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


There's an interesting Q&A on the Guardian with one of their reporters, Matthew Taylor, who had been investigating the English Defence League for months - make sure to check the links in the introduction too, like this video about his four months undercover in the EDL.

Some quotes:
At each demonstration I attended, I was confronted by casual racism, a widespread hatred of Muslims and often the threat of violence. But I also met non-white people, gay rights activists, disaffected working class men and women, and middle-class intellectuals. I came to the conclusion that the EDL is not a simple rerun of previous far-right street groups.

... It seems to me it has acted as a lightening rod for a range of different groups brought together by a virulent Islamphobia - from racial nationalist,to football hooligans and as you say gay rights activists.

... And yes i think the mainstream political parties [and wider society] has some responsibility for not challenging the rise of Islamophobia over the past decade.

... There are several Defence Leagues that have sprung up around Europe. More work needs to be done to establish whether this constitutes an organised "pan European movement". There are also a growing number of far right organisations not linked to the EDL that are becoming increasingly influential in many countries.

...The government, the academic community and the security and police services need to do a lot more to understand these groups - and the threats they pose.

...There are those who want to oppose what they term "Islamic extremism", but on most demonstrations I was on that distinction was lost. The majority seemed opposed, , Muslims, Asian and often anyone who was non white. (...) Every single demonstration I attended I experienced vicious racism often accompanied by violence or the threat of violence. Not once was this challenged in even the most half-hearted way [although of course i this may have happened when I was not there.] I think we have to look beyond what the website says in its formal statements and listen to what its supporters say and do.
posted by bitteschoen at 9:07 AM on July 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


Threat Of Right-Wing Extremism In U.S. Debated By Feds, Analysts.
posted by ericb at 11:45 AM on July 28, 2011


WATCH: Jon Stewart Rips Fox News' Religious Hypocrisy.
posted by ericb at 11:47 AM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


If anybody cares: