Ding Dong, DADT is dead.

July 22, 2011 2:35 PM

Ding Dong, DADT is dead. Today marks the end of another era of discrimination against Americans who wish to serve in the armed forces. The Washington Post provides a handy recap.
posted by Tell Me No Lies (102 comments total)

What's the opposite of "."?
posted by FeralHat at 2:36 PM on July 22, 2011

A campaign promise kept, and a proud day to be American.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:37 PM on July 22, 2011 [15 favorites]

What's the opposite of "."?

!
posted by The Whelk at 2:37 PM on July 22, 2011 [33 favorites]

Another bold step into the 20th century.
posted by geckoinpdx at 2:38 PM on July 22, 2011 [19 favorites]

The word you are looking for is..

w00t!
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:39 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

60 more days.
posted by QuarterlyProphet at 2:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

Now let's give their spouses equal benefits.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 2:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [23 favorites]

To clarify, this goes into affect 60 days after Obama signs the order. I think.
posted by Brocktoon at 2:41 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

Ding Dong, DADT is dead.

A 60-day waiting period will now begin before the repeal is fully implemented.

... in two months. Still, this deserves

!
posted by filthy light thief at 2:41 PM on July 22, 2011

now on to repealing DOMA, passing ENDA and while we're at it, stop the horrendous immigration policies that w/o comprehensive reform affect disproportionately LGBT undocumented youth.

nope, works not done. just started.
posted by liza at 2:42 PM on July 22, 2011 [12 favorites]

There is something truly bizarre about the fact that the right to fight and die for one's country has been recognized ahead of the right to marry and raise children.

We live in a very strange world.
posted by bearwife at 2:43 PM on July 22, 2011 [27 favorites]

nope, works not done. just started.

(Picturing Tim Robbins and Kevin Costner) "Can't you let me even enjoy the moment?" "Well, the moment's over."
posted by Melismata at 2:43 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

bearwife:

Not so strange. There is a state-originated demand for soldiers, but the demand for peace and marriage comes from our citizenry. Do you believe we have a sane citizenry, united in tbeir ideals and goals?
posted by curuinor at 2:51 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

To clarify, this goes into affect 60 days after Obama signs the order. I think.

True, but this is the last hurdle specified in HR6520. It is remotely possible that one of the signatories could change his mind, but I'm breaking out the champagne anyway.

With regard to other issues: There is always more work to be done, but there's no reason not to celebrate the milestones.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:53 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

We don't have a sane state OR sane citizenry, period. In the state's defense, it does, occasionally, recognize its own best interests once in a while...
posted by Ryvar at 2:54 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

Another bold step into the 20th century.

If you think that openly gay and lesbian people were accepted in any part of the 20th Century, you lived in one of less than a dozen area codes. There's a reason this took a tremendous amount of political capital even in 2010, and it wasn't because the vast majority of the U.S. military gave a crap. Dismissing DADT as a last relic of homophobia does a great disservice not only to the people in and out of uniform who kept up the fight, but also to the people who continue to work for the remaining millions of people whose sexual identities expose them to prejudice and discrimination.
posted by Etrigan at 2:54 PM on July 22, 2011 [19 favorites]

bearwife: We live in a very strange world.

The world is a pretty big place, with a huge mix of wonderful and terrible. This nation, however, is very strange indeed.

Part of me is annoyed that this was the first change, but another part realizes it has to start somewhere. Would it be more odd to end DOMA before DADT?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:55 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

Congratulations to the President, Representatives, Senators, and activist groups who kept this issue alive and rolling in the last three years of legislative hell.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 2:56 PM on July 22, 2011

It's getting better!
posted by chavenet at 3:00 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]

Phew. Read DADT as AD&D.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:03 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]

If you think that openly gay and lesbian people were accepted in any part of the 20th Century, you lived in one of less than a dozen area codes

Or outside the US.
posted by geckoinpdx at 3:03 PM on July 22, 2011 [15 favorites]

And also:

Dismissing DADT as a last relic of homophobia does a great disservice

is not where I was going with that at all. It was intended to be more like "why the hell is this still even an issue?"
posted by geckoinpdx at 3:05 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

Putting on my pure political calculus hat, married gay soldiers will make excellent political pawns for pushing back on DOMA.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:07 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]

If you think that openly gay and lesbian people were accepted in any part of the 20th Century, you lived in one of less than a dozen area codes

Or outside the US.

You know, I know it's hip to make the US the most regressive backwater nation out there, but many other developed nations out there had a lot of the same hang ups as we did and not all of Europe is blazing a new trail of excellence with it into the 21st century. Let's face it: through most of the world, the 20th century was not a fun time for LGBT rights and only recently has it really started to get better. The fight isn't over, but the US has done something good, and we can be proud of this moment without pissing all over it in an attempt to show how one nation sucks over another.

So, the point is "outside the US" was not a good place to be gay in the 20th century either.

On a totally celebratory note, I'm very happy right now, but perhaps more than that, I'm relieved.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 3:21 PM on July 22, 2011 [14 favorites]

of course it got done.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:22 PM on July 22, 2011

Statements by President Obama, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mike Mullen, Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta and others.
posted by ericb at 3:23 PM on July 22, 2011

There is something truly bizarre about the fact that the right to fight and die for one's country has been recognized ahead of the right to marry and raise children.


African American soldiers have served in various positions since the Revolutionary War, while being subject to slavery and segregation; laws against miscegenation were not repealed until the 1970's. This is bizarre, but it is by no means novel.
posted by jenkinsEar at 3:26 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]

Congrats! Everyone is freer today!
posted by Navelgazer at 3:29 PM on July 22, 2011

...end of another era of discrimination against Americans...

Yes!

...who wish to serve in the armed forces.

Aww...
posted by OverlappingElvis at 3:29 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]

Nice to get some good news today, that's for damn sure.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:29 PM on July 22, 2011

Gays get to be married and go to war! Congrats?
posted by Renoroc at 3:30 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]

!
posted by theplotchickens at 3:35 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

the next battle?
posted by lesli212 at 3:37 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

Hot damn! We can finally get ROTC and recruiters back on all college campuses and staff up for the coming ground invasion of Iran! America will crush all who oppose it under its newly stylish boots!
posted by indubitable at 3:37 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

Hot damn! We can finally get ROTC and recruiters back on all college campuses and staff up for the coming ground invasion of Iran! America will crush all who oppose it under its newly stylish boots!

The affect on campus recruiting was the first thing that jumped to my mind as well. Are the people at my law school not going to receive the twice year letter about how they are required by law to let the recruiters on campus, even though they don't want to? Will there be no more pink army men on desks whenever the recruiters are around?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 3:40 PM on July 22, 2011

It was intended to be more like "why the hell is this still even an issue?"

Because not everyone is as enlightened as you. Congratulations, you're the most evolved person in the room. Now get out of the way of the people who recognize that there are still problems and are trying to solve them instead of just shrugging at how backwards anyone is for disagreeing with you.
posted by Etrigan at 3:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]

Congratulations to the Log Cabin Republicans, who are a major reason why this happened.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:53 PM on July 22, 2011 [12 favorites]

Good riddance to bad garbage.

Also, some remarks from last month about DADT from the highest-ranking non-com in the Marines.
posted by KGMoney at 4:00 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]

Hot damn! We can finally get ROTC and recruiters back on all college campuses and staff up for the coming ground invasion of Iran! America will crush all who oppose it under its newly stylish boots!

The reintroduction of recruiters and ROTC programs on major universities—especially law and medical—is in the best interests of the many. Surely, having a higher grade of law graduates that become JAGs or medical graduates that become Medical Officers is in the national self-interest? And wouldn't more educated officers be better to have in times of crises and moral turning points than those who are not? If you don't want to join the military, I understand, but for the US, having a well-educated military is a very good thing and should be pursued.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 4:01 PM on July 22, 2011 [10 favorites]

horrendous immigration policies that w/o comprehensive reform affect disproportionately LGBT undocumented youth

What does this mean, please?
posted by Flunkie at 4:08 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

Gays get to be married and go to war! Congrats?

yay for killing brown people while you are gay.
posted by ts;dr at 4:23 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

Congratulations, you're the most evolved person in the room.

Wow. You obviously don't know me at all. You are putting lots of meaning and all kinds of subtext into my words that just isn't there.

I'm not shrugging at anyone. I honestly don't understand what took so long.
posted by geckoinpdx at 4:23 PM on July 22, 2011 [6 favorites]

This is pure awesome.
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:29 PM on July 22, 2011

I honestly don't understand what took so long.

News flash: a large portion of the US population has, until quite recently, regarded queers as sub-human and doesn't want to mix with them in any context, not even in the midst of killing the even-more-subhuman brown people on the other side of the planet.
posted by hippybear at 4:32 PM on July 22, 2011

At first I read the title as ADAT is dead, and I thought "Yeah, Pro Tools killed that 10 years ago," then I looked again and was all

!

This is a good day.
posted by Devils Rancher at 4:32 PM on July 22, 2011

Positive spin:
It gets better.

Reality for the transfolk:
It gets better for LGB people now, and us... sometime other than now. Maybe.

Look, a step towards equality is a step worth taking. And I will count these 60 days with joy. I just won't count them with glee.
posted by andreaazure at 4:36 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]

Phew. Read DADT as AD&D.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:03 PM on July 22 [2 favorites +] [!]

We should probably repeal that, too.
posted by gc at 4:45 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

geckoinpdx: Well, there was George Bush an a conservative legislature, then George Bush and a slightly liberal legislature, and finally, an obstructionist Republican caucus. Add to this the fact that many Democratic legislators are lukewarm or opposed to gay rights. So it took years of hard work and negotiation by many different people to make this law.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 4:47 PM on July 22, 2011

Great moment for America already immortalized in a historic photo.
posted by nathancaswell at 4:47 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm pro celebrating the milestones. Just because we don't get to eat our whole rainbow cake right now doesn't mean we can't be very happy that we're getting bigger and bigger slices every day.

Also, for clarification: What is this "training" they speak of? ("...the Army, National Guard and Reserves will complete their training for the new policy...")
I think it's great for everyone to attend lectures or whatnot on what exactly it means to be gay, I'm finding it difficult to understand why it can't just be an order from above - this discrimination is ending now.
posted by alona at 4:51 PM on July 22, 2011

About time too. Onwards.
posted by arcticseal at 4:55 PM on July 22, 2011

I'm finding it difficult to understand why it can't just be an order from above - this discrimination is ending now.

I imagine it's establishing the procedures for reporting discrimination up the chain of command, training officers and NCO's how to handle various issues that might arise with their subordinates, etc. It's a little naive to expect them just to flip a switch and everything to be hunky-dory. Training is a good thing IMO.
posted by nathancaswell at 4:56 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

We don't have a sane state OR sane citizenry, period. In the state's defense, it does, occasionally, recognize its own best interests once in a while...

Tell that to the debt ceiling.

As for the post: !
posted by that's how you get ants at 4:58 PM on July 22, 2011

geckoinpdx: I honestly don't understand what took so long.

News flash: a large portion of the US population has, until quite recently, regarded queers as sub-human and doesn't want to mix with them in any context, not even in the midst of killing the even-more-subhuman brown people on the other side of the planet.
posted by hippybear at 4:32 PM on July 22 [+] [!]

I don't understand this pile on geckoinpdx. I think he is just saying the right to serve your country should be open to all - and something that is so manifest should have been a no brainer a long time ago. We are all cheering for the same thing. As a gay guy myself - the progress being made is deeply heartening - and I agree that there remains much to be done. But for today - I take great joy that another piece of homophobic legislation is consigned to history.

Perhaps the Oslo stuff has gotten me into a "let's be nice to eachother today" mood.
posted by helmutdog at 4:58 PM on July 22, 2011 [9 favorites]

News flash: a large portion of the US population has, until quite recently, regarded queers as sub-human and doesn't want to mix with them in any context, not even in the midst of killing the even-more-subhuman brown people on the other side of the planet.

I do believe you are attempting to pick a fight with someone on your side. Let it drop already.
posted by secondhand pho at 5:02 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]

I'm finding it difficult to understand why it can't just be an order from above - this discrimination is ending now.

Check out the second link for a description of the training that went into racial integration.

"Not kicking homosexuals out" will not begin to meet the needs of the Armed Forces. They need (and are pursuing) real integration to be a coherent fighting force.

The spousal support will take longer, but I agree with people who say that it is inevitable now that there is a commitment to accepting homosexuals into the ranks.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:09 PM on July 22, 2011

I do believe you are attempting to pick a fight with someone on your side. Let it drop already.

Yeah, taking innocuous comments by people you know to agree with you, reading them in the most negative possible light, and pouring on the haterade usually isn't usually my favorite method of commenting... but somehow it wouldn't seem right if the thread about getting gay sex more out in the open didn't have a few dicks in it.
posted by Winnemac at 5:18 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]

Secondhand, helmutdog: exactly. Thank you.

To the rest, thanks for reminding me why I don't post often.
posted by geckoinpdx at 5:24 PM on July 22, 2011

Hmm. This is inarguably good news, but I enjoy feeling outraged. How can I spin this so I can be pissed?
posted by kafziel at 5:28 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]

How can I spin this so I can be pissed?

As a Sufi Dervish of the Mevlevi order, I find your use of "spin" terribly offensive.
posted by nathancaswell at 5:29 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]

!!!

this is a good piece of news. A rarity lately.
posted by wowbobwow at 5:30 PM on July 22, 2011

Winnemac: Yeah, taking innocuous comments by people you know to agree with you, reading them in the most negative possible light, and pouring on the haterade usually isn't usually my favorite method of commenting... but somehow it wouldn't seem right if the thread about getting gay sex more out in the open didn't have a few dicks in it.

Yeah, but this is a metafilter politics discussion, where the 2000 election and Republican shills are the new Godwin's Law.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 5:30 PM on July 22, 2011

Geckoipdx, I did take issue with your US comment and also how you came off with the "Why is this an issue" one too. I think it was just a disconnect between how both of us register milestones of victory. I don't want you to leave the threat today in bitterness, so if anything I said came out somewhat personal at you, you have my full apology. It is a good day, and I suppose I should start treating it as such by being as charitable as possible.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 5:32 PM on July 22, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yay !
posted by wallabear at 5:33 PM on July 22, 2011

News flash: a large portion of the US population has, until quite recently, regarded queers as sub-human

Or barbarians.
posted by homunculus at 5:36 PM on July 22, 2011

!
posted by The Whelk at 2:37 PM on July 22 [14 favorites +] [!]

!
posted by filthy light thief at 2:41 PM on July 22 [+] [!]

!!!
posted by wowbobwow at 5:30 PM on July 22 [+] [!]

c'mon now y'all, srsly...like we gays dont have a bad enough reputation for being all wiener-centric.
posted by sexyrobot at 5:37 PM on July 22, 2011

!
posted by KirkJobSluder at 5:38 PM on July 22, 2011

Congrats America! Nice to see you swimming towards sanity. Don't be shy, keep on going.
posted by aychedee at 5:46 PM on July 22, 2011

*
posted by The Whelk at 5:59 PM on July 22, 2011 [7 favorites]

ps your mom is the most evolved person in the room
posted by geckoinpdx at 5:59 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

I had a room mate in a barracks at Ft. Bragg who would occasionally get loaded on tequila and run around the barracks with nothing on but a giant woodie and panty hose. The first time he did that my fellow barracks rats and I beat him up a little bit until we realized that he was totally enjoying the experience. He was pretty buff and beary and pretty much looked like Mark Wahlberg.

Knowing we couldn't hurt him, he was a pal and a good guy, we just chastised him for running around the barracks with liquor, something we could all pay dearly for and ended up having a really great mostly nekkid pillow fight.

We got busted the following Monday morning during barracks inspection. You can NEVER get all of the damn feathers!


w00t!!!! Congrats to everyone!
posted by snsranch at 6:14 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]

!
posted by SollosQ at 6:14 PM on July 22, 2011

Hot damn! We can finally get ROTC and recruiters back on all college campuses and staff up for the coming ground invasion of Iran!

I see it rather differently. Aside from correcting an ugly and discriminatory law, this is going to be incredibly beneficial to the military and civil-military relations. We live in a democracy that has chosen to go to war twice in the last decade, but it's a very specific segment of society that has fought them. Anything that broadens the demographics of the military -- as the reintroduction or ROTC programs at elite schools will do -- is a good thing. It's good because it makes the military less insular and more capable, and it makes the decision of going to war or re-electing someone who has waged war or electing someone with more interventionist views in foreign policy more real for more families. I may be coming off as naive, I certainly don't think having ROTC back at Harvard is going to instantly make foreign wars unthinkable (it certainly didn't stop the Vietnam War) or dramatically hike the socio-economic status of recruits, but it's a step in the right decision.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 6:25 PM on July 22, 2011 [3 favorites]

!
posted by The Whelk at 2:37 PM on July 22 [14 favorites +] [!]

!
posted by filthy light thief at 2:41 PM on July 22 [+] [!]

!!!
posted by wowbobwow at 5:30 PM on July 22 [+] [!]

c'mon now y'all, srsly...like we gays dont have a bad enough reputation for being all wiener-centric.
posted by sexyrobot

!0!

There. Better?
posted by wowbobwow at 6:52 PM on July 22, 2011

I'm hardly picking a fight with anyone. But for someone to come out of the last 40 years of progress on GLBT rights issues saying "I don't see what the whole issue is about" is either willfully ignorant or incapable of projecting themselves into the mindset of the opposition. Either of those is a dangerous thing to be, and providing a bit of context for people like that isn't picking a fight, it's doing our side a service.

If they're truly on our side and they're saying that they don't understand what all the hoopla is about and why wasn't this settled sooner, then that's a great thing but requires better context for the point to me made. And that's how the comment came across. Don't attack me for someone else's failure to clearly communicate. I'm always willing to give people the broadest benefit of the doubt. But if there's one thing that MetaFilter has taught me, it's the importance of being able to get one's point across clearly. If I've stepped on some internet person's toes while pointing that out, I don't feel any worse than any of the people here on MetaFilter who have stepped on my toes while sharpening my own communication skills.
posted by hippybear at 6:53 PM on July 22, 2011

The Whelk: "*"

Is that where the webs shoot from?
posted by mrgoat at 7:09 PM on July 22, 2011

Obama, with his top men at the Pentagon, formally "certified" to Congress that the present "don't ask-don't tell" policy will end in mid-September without harming "military readiness, military effectiveness, unit cohesion and recruiting and retention of the Armed Forces."


TOP. MEN.
posted by mkb at 7:14 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

FeralHat: "What's the opposite of ".""

Your question has already been answered.
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:16 PM on July 22, 2011

Knowing we couldn't hurt him, he was a pal and a good guy, we just chastised him for running around the barracks with liquor, something we could all pay dearly for and ended up having a really great mostly nekkid pillow fight.


Mr President, I am ready to serve my country.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2011 [5 favorites]

But for someone to come out of the last 40 years of progress on GLBT rights issues saying "I don't see what the whole issue is about"

I thought this was dead. After this, I hope it will be.

Look. I have been alive for each of those 40 years of progress. I bit my tongue about the first swipe about LGBT not being accepted in the 20th century. And I also ignored the insinuation that I am not one of the people working for equality and just the chance to be fucking normal.

I live and breathe the fucking cause.

I came out at the beginning of the AIDS crisis. Back when it was still called GRID (Gay Related Immune Deficiency). I have been bashed. I lost a good friend to bashing. Too many to AIDS and suicide to count. One of the regulars at the store I worked at in my early 20s was Keith Meinhold, someone who inspired me and I continue to hold in great respect. Go on, google him, I'll be right here. I was fired from my first job for being queer. I get called names to this day.

It's still not easy. Here in Portland, the idealised liberal mecca that it claims to be, someone was murdered on the doorstep of the bar I worked at because they thought he was gay.

I meant exactly what helmutdog said, I just could have said it better. The fact that it took so fucking long and was so difficult to treat "us" the same way as "them" is beyond me. I genuinely do not understand. Over a decade after many countries began treating all of its citizens as human and allowed them to marry regardless of gender, it just amazes me that the "leader of the free world" and example of democracy would take so long to grudgingly allow this basic human right.

I understand that my comment(s) could easily be construed as inflammatory, but that's not the case, and I'm sorry if it came out that way. But to automatically pin emotion and intent I never had is insulting, degrading and franlky pretty infuriating. Don't you dare ostracise me and assign blame for something I never intended and did not say.

If you'd collectively look past that chip on your shoulders, you'd be able to see that I'm standing right beside you, not against you.
posted by geckoinpdx at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2011 [14 favorites]

This is a good first step.

Now, lets keep the momentum. There is still so much more to be done.

For all people.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 7:44 PM on July 22, 2011

preemptive defence: I only mentioned Keith to illustrate that I am well aware that the military issue has been going on much longer than DADT, not to namedrop.
posted by geckoinpdx at 7:47 PM on July 22, 2011

Okay, so:

(Picturing Tim Robbins and Kevin Costner)

in this context made me immediately re-envision Bull Durham with the love triangle between Crash, Nuke, and Annie revised. Annie wants to give the hot young Nuke the season of his life, but after their eyes lock in the shower room, the pitcher and the catcher (I know, how did I not see this before?) have their own plans for the summer. Envision the scene where Crash warns the opposing players that Nuke will throw a fastball as impish flirtation. When Crash eventually winds up in Annie's bed, it's only to spite Meat (as Crash--once affectionately--called Nuke.) As the season draws to a close, Nuke moves on to The Show, and Crash retires gracelessly.

My wife is laughing at me for writing Bull Durham slash fic (especially since I'm straight), but I think this could go somewhere. Is there a producer reading this?
posted by agentofselection at 8:03 PM on July 22, 2011

bearwife: "There is something truly bizarre about the fact that the right to fight and die for one's country has been recognized ahead of the right to marry and raise children. "

It's much easier to effect change in a highly hierarchical organization such as the armed forces. You do it top down and it will cascade down the ranks. Not so simple in an open society.
posted by falameufilho at 8:16 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

We don't have a sane state OR sane citizenry, period. In the state's defense, it does, occasionally, recognize its own best interests once in a while...

The vast majority of people are decent human beings.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:40 PM on July 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

I had to take the training and then turn around and give it to about fifty others.

It's very thorough, lays out the legal changes, the accompanying moral position, then clearly defines expectations. This is followed by a series of vignettes of likely situations, e.g., a recruiter declines to enlist an otherwise qualified gay candidate. What do you, his supervisor, do? (counseling, punishment)

Two things: as furiousxgeorge and others have pointed out, DOMA is still the law. This has the effect of denying the gay soldiers' spouse some benefits. So expect to see some fighting there. The other thing was during the trainIng sessions it was very clear that with two exceptions, (out of fifty-some) nobody cares. I expect many units will put out a policy banning PDA across the board, at least at first.
posted by atchafalaya at 8:42 PM on July 22, 2011 [4 favorites]

...it just amazes me that the "leader of the free world" and example of democracy would take so long to grudgingly allow this basic human right.

it just amazes me how often people forget that this country was founded by Puritans, who, y'know, pretty much got drummed out of England for being too pious and well, puritanical.
posted by sexyrobot at 9:09 PM on July 22, 2011

!
posted by oddman at 10:00 PM on July 22, 2011

Every little bit of hope is necessary. :)

!
posted by uniq at 11:16 PM on July 22, 2011

Er...mostly nekkid pillow fights with a buff and beary Mark Wahlberg?



*vapors*
posted by darkstar at 12:03 AM on July 23, 2011 [1 favorite]

Of course, if the Republicans win the next POTUS election, or gain control of the Senate, they have promised to restore DADT. Sooo... no, it's not over yet.
posted by markkraft at 2:45 AM on July 23, 2011

It's never going to be over. Not until who you love/crush on/live with/jerk off to/sleep with/lust after/is never even questioned.

As with many, I suspect, my sexuality is an aspect of my being, and not a definition.

But make no mistake, this is an important step, and should be recognised as such.

I am well aware that a lot can change in 60 days, and we're nowhere near where "we" should be, but the mere fact that this is being publicly acknowledged is in itself a kind of victory and should be celebrated as such. This is a Good Thing.


ps your mom is still the most enlightened one in the room
posted by geckoinpdx at 2:58 AM on July 23, 2011

Of course, if the Republicans win the next POTUS election, or gain control of the Senate, they have promised to restore DADT.

The number one argument that needs to be made against that is that it flies directly in the face of the one thing they've promised in the last electoral cycle: JOBS. A stable, sought-after national employer, which will now finally be able to recruit at the level (in numbers and caliber of applicants) they've been seeking for decades, would have to then turn around and fire a number of new employees because Congress said so.
posted by psoas at 6:16 AM on July 23, 2011

The vast majority of people are decent human beings.

I envy you, that you believe that. I wish I did.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:03 AM on July 23, 2011

I expect many units will put out a policy banning PDA across the board, at least at first.

I don't understand - do you mean between members of the same unit? Or when members are off duty, out with their (same sex) partners. Can they even do that?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:09 AM on July 23, 2011

do you mean between members of the same unit? Or when members are off duty, out with their (same sex) partners. Can they even do that?

Dunno what the relevant poster meant, but, yes, your military chain of command can exert an extraordinary degree of paternalistic control over your private life. ISTR this has changed, but requiring your command's permission before you can marry.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:33 AM on July 23, 2011

...it just amazes me that the "leader of the free world" and example of democracy would take so long to grudgingly allow this basic human right.

It took plenty of other democracies plenty of time to get to the same conclusion. Others are behind even us (and I'm just talking about the "friendly" European democracies that people here always look towards as paradises). That doesn't make it better, but this "basic human right" most mostly unheard of in the halls of power half a century ago. So, we're making progress! Not the finish line, but progress!

it just amazes me how often people forget that this country was founded by Puritans, who, y'know, pretty much got drummed out of England for being too pious and well, puritanical.

America was NOT founded by Puritans, nor did they make up a significant population of the US when it formed. You ignore all of the southern states which were not Puritan and much more likely to be very mainline Protestant (CofE and the like), the liberal amount of Catholics that came to the US (especially in Maryland), the various dissenters like Quakers (thank you Pennsylvania), and the smattering of everyone else. In addition, the Puritans were not drummed out of Britain for being too pious anymore than the Quakers and the Catholics were; they were dissenters, and you can be a nice dissenter or a mean dissenter, but you were still a dissenter to the supposedly all-encapsulating Church of England at the time. The thought process behind it was not that Puritans (or the Pilgrims who actually came over here) were too "hard-core".

I'm sorry, but the myth that Puritans are the source for the ills in our national soul needs to die. It is ahistoric and not useful for understanding the foundations of America nor it's future.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 11:54 AM on July 23, 2011 [5 favorites]

In addition, PDA in uniform is officially prohibited whether same-sex or not. Fraternization likewise. However, there's plenty to be done to button down these things. "You mean I can't just date the enlisted guy now that DADT is gone? Damn, this is unfair!" And yes, it will happen, and yes, some goobers will think "I can do this" means "I can do this other thing that is still patently unreg"
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:01 PM on July 23, 2011

It's never going to be over. Not until who you love/crush on/live with/jerk off to/sleep with/lust after/is never even questioned.It's never going to be over.

There is always going to be a line at consent there. Those unable to give it are not someone who can be a legal object of sex.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:28 PM on July 23, 2011

There is always going to be a line at consent there

Er...yeah. That came out creepier than I intended.

Not a good day for self-expression, apparently.
posted by geckoinpdx at 4:20 PM on July 23, 2011

meh, say what you will in favor of the Puritans, but it sure is hard to hold a witch hunt without them.
posted by sexyrobot at 12:00 AM on July 24, 2011

meh, say what you will in favor of the Puritans, but it sure is hard to hold a witch hunt without them.

I think the Catholics, the Lutherans, and the Calvinists would all disagree with that one rather handily.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 8:38 AM on July 24, 2011 [1 favorite]