Racebending: Yellowface Edition

September 14, 2011 6:44 AM

Yellowface: A Story In Pictures - A chronicle of Asian/Middle Eastern characters as performed by white actors. (Previously on MeFi)
posted by hermitosis (174 comments total)

I was going to specifically point out Joel Grey in Remo Williams as a counterexample, but apparently he's not Asian. So that's not awesome.

OTOH, some of these are less "using whites to portray asians" as "using asians as vehicles for whites". (Like The Party. Peter Sellers was going to be in that movie even if he didn't play an Indian character.) Still not awesome, though.
posted by DU at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2011

Yeah inclusions of whitewashed roles about, which I think is important because this still happens frequently today.

One notable exclusion from the post is Linda Hunt in "The Year of Living Dangerously," for which she won an Academy Award.
posted by hermitosis at 6:56 AM on September 14, 2011

I dunno whether this indicates it goes the other way too, or whether it's just weird.
posted by Ahab at 7:00 AM on September 14, 2011

There was a great article in the New Yorker a while back about the Charlie Chan films/mythos, and the actual Honolulu PD detective, and the only Chinese detective on the force, he was based upon.
posted by griphus at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Apparently Asian American actors have the least representation based on population then anyone right now--and I am still shocked at how conservative Hollywood it is, how bad it is at minority stories. Thanks for this.
posted by PinkMoose at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Thank god for Bollywood and the Shaw Brothers.

Interestingly enough:

In what is his first Hollywood role, Amitabh Bachchan has joined the cast of Baz Luhrmann’s latest magnum opus The Great Gatsby, which began filming in Australia this week.

The $125-million, 3-D adaptation of the much-read F. Scott Fitzgerald novel stars Titanic star Leonardo DiCaprio in the title role.

Bachchan is slated to play Meyer Wolfsheim, a man with a dark past who helps DiCaprio’s character make money when he first comes to New York after the first World War.

“Bachchan, the elder statesman of Indian cinema and one of the most recognised faces on the planet, will play the role of Meyer Wolfsheim,” Warner Bros. said in a statement.
posted by infini at 7:04 AM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

I dunno whether this indicates it goes the other way too, or whether it's just weird.

I spat out my tea at the Nic Cage/Salman Khan one.
posted by pmcp at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2011

I am still shocked at how conservative Hollywood it is, how bad it is at minority stories.

It's less shocking when you remember that "Hollywood" is a group of enormous corporations.
posted by DU at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

Katherine Hepburn must be the fakest Asian there.
posted by knoyers at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2011

Wow, that's a really odd casting choice. Wolfsheim is the only character in the novel, as far as I can recall, with a defined ethnicity (being based on an actual person.)

But, hey, whatever, it's Baz Luhrmann.
posted by griphus at 7:17 AM on September 14, 2011

Yeah, I'm far more concerned about the "The $125-million, 3-D adaptation of the much-read F. Scott Fitzgerald novel" aspect, tbh.
posted by elizardbits at 7:24 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Wow, that's a really odd casting choice.

Writing in his blog, Bachchan, 68, said he had "refused any remuneration" because his small role in the film was a "friendly gesture" to Luhrmann.

"Baz Luhrmann during his private visit to India last year, had dropped by my office to meet me and presented me with some paintings of a prominent painter that was accompanying him," Bachchan wrote.

"He called last month and wondered if I would do this small role in his film and I agreed. It is a gesture." ~ Beeb

I've been thinking the same and wondering if its a way to capture the humongous Indian cinema market? You know "Bachchan's first Hollywood movie" etc would draw the frontbenchers in a dubbed version.
posted by infini at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2011

I'm glad to see the 13th Warrior got a (small) call-out. It's a decent film, and treats his character with respect, so I don't really have any issues with it, but the tendency to think of these kinds of things as just whitewashing (implying it's simply white people portraying ethnicities that they're not), when there's also a long history of, say, casting Latinos, African-Americans, and Indians as Middle-Easterners because, well, "they're all brownish, right?" isn't really better.
posted by Amanojaku at 7:28 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yeah....including adaptations that have changed the race of the character is a bit unfair to include in this comparison, especially since we've done it in the other direction plenty of times. If the adaptation isn't 100% faithful, I see no reason why it's inappropriate to change the race/ethnicity of a character if it doesn't affect the plot, and they have a particular actor in mind for the role.

"Yellowface" is all kinds of messed up, but at the same time, if there is a non-Asian actor who would be great for the role, I see no reason why you can't write "I was adopted" into the plot, or just have the actor play the part straight without overdoing the stereotypes or makeup (after all, they are acting).

I mean...do we complain that Mr. Sulu is now Korean instead of Japanese? Strictly speaking, they are changing the ethnicity of the character.

<sub>Also, this is a weird topic for stories set in the distant past/future. In the Star Trek universe, you could easily explain away a "Japanese" person with few/no Asian features. Maybe we should be insulted that Sulu has been typecast as an Asian in a universe where humans seem to be blind to ethnicity within their own race. If anything, the fact that the characters in Star Trek aren't all multi-ethnic requires a significant suspension of disbelief.

On a similar note, there are a surprising number of part-Asian actors and celebrities, which nobody ever seems to notice.</sub>
posted by schmod at 7:29 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I haven't seen 30 Days of Night, but looking through this list...I actually buy Josh Hartnett for the role of an Inuit cop. Wikipedia lists five Inuit actors, one of whom is only 15, so that doesn't give a whole lot of wiggle room. I'll...reserve comment on Rob Schneider.

See also: racechanging movie makeup.
posted by phunniemee at 7:31 AM on September 14, 2011

Fu Manchu is bullshit, but "The Good Earth" probably contributed more to Americans having human empathy for Chinese than any other work in the 20th century.

Also, Goku is a cartoon superhero. Is anyone also annoyed that Indian Superman isn't really from Kansas or whatever?
posted by Winnemac at 7:36 AM on September 14, 2011

If the adaptation isn't 100% faithful, I see no reason why it's inappropriate to change the race/ethnicity of a character if it doesn't affect the plot, and they have a particular actor in mind for the role.

"Yellowface" is all kinds of messed up, but at the same time, if there is a non-Asian actor who would be great for the role, I see no reason why you can't write "I was adopted" into the plot, or just have the actor play the part straight without overdoing the stereotypes or makeup (after all, they are acting).

The reason why it is a problem in practice is that typically this is done by film studios for the sole purpose of shoe-horning a bankable (read: white) star into every possible role. And while rarely this works in favor of a minority performer (like the Gatsby thing above, or say, Eartha Kitt in Anna Lucasta), it nearly always works in the other direction.

There will always be a non-Asian actor who someone influential thinks would be "great for the role." That is because that person is mainly only familiar with non-Asian actors. Then consider that we are importing more Asian books, films and artwork into the American culture stream than ever before. We're inviting them to participate on the back-end of our multi-million dollar ventures, and then whitewashing their presence from the final result. And then we sell it back to them. How is that a fair exchange?
posted by hermitosis at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2011 [14 favorites]

I also want express my outrage at Madonna for playing Eva Perón, a latina, Ben Kingsley for playing a jew in Schlinder's List, and F. Murray Abraham who's of syrian descent, but who played an italian composer in Amadeus.
posted by Omon Ra at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

...if there is a non-Asian actor who would be great for the role, I see no reason why you can't write "I was adopted" into the plot...

Because it seems that much, much more often than not, there is a non-Asian (specifically, white) actor who is better for a role originally meant for an Asian one. So this is either a wide-spread and serious whitewashing problem or Asians are such sub-standard actors directors have no choice but to go with white ones. Which one makes more sense?

Yeah, I'm far more concerned about the "The $125-million, 3-D adaptation of the much-read F. Scott Fitzgerald novel" aspect, tbh.

Pshhh. Everyone knows the reason there hasn't been a good production of Gatsby is because the champagne glasses, fancy cars and expressions of bored ennui weren't IN YOUR FACE enough for the audience.
posted by griphus at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2011

I also want express my outrage at Madonna for playing Eva Perón

Not sure about the others, but you're in good company on this one.
posted by hermitosis at 7:40 AM on September 14, 2011 [6 favorites]

This is one of those lists that drives me a little nuts because of its occasional arbitrariness, for example, deciding that any Arabian or Muslim character is Asian; I'm not particularly outraged that people like Rudolph Valentino or Antonio Banderas, of Southern European (really Mediterranean) ancestry, play Arabs. It's nowhere near in the same league as Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's, which ruined that film for me, or for that matter Brando in Teahouse of the August Moon, which has to be seen (and heard) to be believed. Plus, of course, as DU mentioned above with Peter Sellers, no one else was going to play that character in Norbert but Eddie Murphy, who plays something like half the characters in the movie or thereabouts.

But, yes, it's pretty fucking embarrassing when Hollywood pretends that there aren't any decent Asian actors or whitewashes films to save the roles for Caucazoids. (Also previously on the blue, and previouslier.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

I'm also outraged that the majority of mexicans portrayed in american movies and tv shows are actually colombian and cuban actors.
posted by Omon Ra at 7:42 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

there's also a long history of, say, casting ... African-Americans ... as Middle-Easterners

That may be, but Morgan Freeman as Azeem in Prince of Thieves isn't the best example. His character is a Moor, and so could very well be of West African descent. I say "could very well be" because I don't think the movie specifies his origin precisely, only as "Moorish," and Moor is not a precise term. Your broader point stands, though.

Since it refers to Prince of Persia in the future tense, this article was apparently written before the Avatar: The Last Airbender casting debacle. Despite its age, the article was the first I'd heard about Mickey Rourke being cast as Ghenghis Khan. I can't believe Hollywood is repeating that mistake. Disgraceful.

I also want express my outrage at Madonna for playing Eva Perón

There is a (small) argument to be made that, as a musical, Evita is a little closer to live theatre, which is, as the article notes, more colorblind in its casting choices.
posted by jedicus at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Pshhh. Everyone knows the reason there hasn't been a good production of Gatsby is because the champagne glasses, fancy cars and expressions of bored ennui weren't IN YOUR FACE enough for the audience.

Exactly, which is why it should be BROUGHT TO YOU BY MICHAEL BAY instead, obviously.
posted by elizardbits at 7:44 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Sorry, it's tangential, but Hollywood has always been a self-glorifying bigoted enterprise. Many people, rightly so, criticized Reagan for not making a mention of AIDS until after thousands of Americans had died. But major Hollywood studios were self-congratulatory for finally putting out a major studio story like Philadelphia in 1993.
Hollywood has always ridden the wave of prejudice for the sake of money.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:45 AM on September 14, 2011

jedicus, re: Moor - exactly. Can I favourite half a comment?
posted by infini at 7:48 AM on September 14, 2011

Surprised they left out Sean Connery in The Wind and the Lion playing a Berber warlord with the same damn accent he used for James Bond, Robin Hood, Agamemnon, and a Russian Sub commander.
posted by Naberius at 7:49 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Thank you so much for your valuable and insightful contributions to this thread, Omon Ra.
posted by kmz at 7:52 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Interesting to note that Werner Olund, "The Swede who played Charlie Chan", was ethnically Siberian on his mother's side - while not Chinese, he was half-Asian, and this was obvious in his publicity stills. While he had great success on Broadway as an actor and playwright, his ethnic background kept him in "character actor" roles in the movies, playing "foreigners" of various stripes (most infamously as an Eastern European jew in The Jazz Singer, which solidifies the movie as one of the worst ever.)

He actually had a nervous breakdown at one point, due to his career dead-ending in Hollywood. It would be like Kevin Spacey forced to do martial arts movies for his whole career because his mom was asian, or Brandon Lee blacklisted from lead roles like The Crow.

Actually, that's a bad example, as Brandon Lee could "pass" as white, he got lead roles. Hollywood hasn't come all that far, apparently.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:52 AM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

...and a Russian Sub commander.

Latvian posing as a Russian. Also, he was supposed to be Egyptian in Highlander.
posted by griphus at 7:52 AM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Casper Van Dien as originally Filipino Juan “Johnnie” Rico

I'm not sure this one counts. They redefined the part, not tried to fake like he was Filipino. It's the equivalent of casting Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate instead of some blonde dude.
posted by nathancaswell at 7:54 AM on September 14, 2011

Omon Ra, I think you're lingering on the wrong point here. Nationality does not always necessarily indicate ethnicity, and many people are of mixed heritage. And frankly, we're lucky to see that so many characters of Mexican/Central American/South American origin are actually played by actors who are from these regions, or descended from people who are. This is probably because of how many of them we have in America, particularly in California, and how relevant this is to current American issues.

What infuriates most people about these kinds of casting choices is not the finer point ("OMG he is Colombian, not Mexican") but the shockingly broad ones which prioritize white performers and which are incredibly commonplace ("OMG, Angelina Jolie in a kinky wig pretending to be biracial").

If only -- IF ONLY -- we were at a place where we could stop keeping score.
posted by hermitosis at 7:54 AM on September 14, 2011

John Wayne as Genghis Khan

what
posted by odinsdream at 7:56 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

They forgot Lee Van Cleef, of Dutch ancestry and courtesy of New Jersey, as Master Ninja. Insulting and otherwise bad.
posted by theredpen at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2011

Thanks for posting this. I mostly follow individual incidents on Angry Asian Man, but it's nice (and sad) to see them all in one place like this.
posted by zarq at 8:00 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Relevant short comedy (~6 min): Screen Test

This short documentary portrays an actor's perspective on ethnocentrism and systemic racism in the entertainment industry. Made as part of the Work for All project in 2006, a NFB and HRSDC-Labour initiative to combat racism in the workplace.
posted by TheGoodBlood at 8:00 AM on September 14, 2011

hermitosis, does the Angelina Jolie example still count if Brad Pitt's the producer or whatever?
posted by infini at 8:02 AM on September 14, 2011

I just think the whole thing is a bit ridiculous kmz. I completely get the criticizing of racist caricatures of the Any Rooney variety, but other than that I dunno. So Ben Kingsley impersonating a jew is fine but Anthony Quinn playing Auda abu Tayi in Lawrence of Arabia is wrong? Where do you draw the line?

I'm mexican, btw, and I have no problem with Charlton Heston playing a mexican cop (in blackface!) in Touch of Evil. As long as the performance is honest, who cares.
posted by Omon Ra at 8:04 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I also want express my outrage at Madonna for playing Eva Perón, a latina

Eva Perón was white, by the way. Ethnicity in South America gets real complicated.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:04 AM on September 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

Oh god, Breakfast at Tiffany's. Some years back, I was dating a Japanese-American girl who talked about what a fantastic movie it was, how it was one of her VERY FAVORITE MOVIES as a child, how I just HAD to see it. So we rent it, we start watching, and suddenly there's Mickey Rooney doing the most hideous racial stereotype of all time. And I just turn to my girlfriend, all

D:

D8

and she's like, "Uh. Huh. Wow. I uh. I didn't remember that part... at all."

Later, she theorized that it never seemed that weird to her as a child because she had no idea he was actually trying to represent himself as Japanese. Which, to be honest, I kind of buy that; she grew up in a primarily asian-american environment, and his yellowface was SO over the top, it bore zero resemblance to anything like the normal humans she'd ever encountered. Her theory was that as a little girl, she must have just innocently thought he was some kind of insane comical mutant.
posted by Greg Nog at 8:06 AM on September 14, 2011 [24 favorites]

hermitosis, does the Angelina Jolie example still count if Brad Pitt's the producer or whatever?

I... don't understand this question.
posted by hermitosis at 8:07 AM on September 14, 2011

I spat out my tea at the Nic Cage/Salman Khan one.

Surely this is the most freakish one.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:09 AM on September 14, 2011

Mickey Rooney as a Japanese caricature always creeped me out. Even as a kid I knew that there was something horribly wrong there. OTOH he creeped me out even as himself.
posted by Splunge at 8:15 AM on September 14, 2011

The problem isn't the general idea of raceswapping, rather, it's that it's an excuse for the real problem in terms of not hiring people of color:

"We only pick the BEST people for the role."
"Huh. You only pick white people."
"Well, er, uh, they were the BEST for the role."
"I somewhat wonder if the message of Malcolm X will read as well with Mark Wahlberg as the title role..."
"He's got star power!!!"
posted by yeloson at 8:22 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Korla Pandit, a white dude from Columbia, MO certainly convinced TV audiences. He did it wordlessly, and was rather more innocuous than the margarine-smeared Hollywood bozos...but still.
posted by obscurator at 8:25 AM on September 14, 2011

Eva Peron was most likely of Basque ancestry, which if you listen to some of the debates about the issue, aren't even Indoeuropean to start with. So, white skinned but perhaps not white? Certainly not latina at all, at least not in the silly sense of the term in the anglosphere.
posted by Iosephus at 8:27 AM on September 14, 2011

This is one of those lists that drives me a little nuts because of its occasional arbitrariness, for example, deciding that any Arabian or Muslim character is Asian

Not Asian: Oriental. I should also note that Arabs/Middle-Easterners have been categorized at various times in the US Census as African, Asian, and Caucasian/White, among others.

That may be, but Morgan Freeman as Azeem in Prince of Thieves isn't the best example. His character is a Moor, and so could very well be of West African descent. I say "could very well be" because I don't think the movie specifies his origin precisely, only as "Moorish," and Moor is not a precise term. Your broader point stands, though.

Probably true; there's also certainly plenty of variation of skin tone among "Moorish" people from a given area, so there are any number of ways is could work out. But the fact that Robin meets him on Crusade in Jerusalem, and Azeem's use of the scimitar -- West Africans had their own blades -- make it seem likely that they specifically mean he's a North African Moor, and either don't know the difference, or expect the audience doesn't. (Again: brown folks is brown, amirite?)
posted by Amanojaku at 8:31 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Metafilter's Greg Nog: Some kind of insane comical mutant.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:34 AM on September 14, 2011 [7 favorites]

I'm glad to see the 13th Warrior got a (small) call-out.

I don't think the 13th Warrior really counts. Banderas is from Malaga, which was pretty much part of Muslim Spain at the time of the story. In fact, while Banderas plays the historical ibn Fadlan, the Vikings had already been visited, a few decades before ibn Fadlan, by al-Ghazal, who came from just the same corner of the woods as Banderas...
posted by Skeptic at 8:36 AM on September 14, 2011

Yeah, there are a lot of misfires and mistakes in this scattershot list, and half of it isn't about "yellowface" at all by any reasonable definition. This is not great film history.

I do want to recommend The Mask of Fu Manchu, though, as perhaps the most embarrassing Yellow Peril movie ever made and still somehow a lot of fun — seeing this revived at the Film Forum a few years back was one of the best moviegoing experiences I've ever had. The stills in the article are pretty representative — it has Myrna Loy in yellowface as the maneating seductress "Jah Lo See," and Karloff in rare form, climactically hoisting the titular Mask and yelling, I kid you not, "KILL THE WHITE MEN! AND TAKE THEIR WOMEN!!!!"
posted by RogerB at 8:37 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

(Boris Karloff, meanwhile, was William Henry Pratt, in London, and has Indian ancestry on both sides.)
posted by griphus at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2011

Connery actually does the full-blown Asian make-up thing in You Only Live Twice. Unlike most of these selections, the yellowface is presented within the diegesis of the film, but that doesn't keep it from looking ridiculous.
posted by stinkycheese at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2011

and Karloff in rare form, climactically hoisting the titular Mask and yelling, I kid you not, "KILL THE WHITE MEN! AND TAKE THEIR WOMEN!!!!"

I do that every Thursday night at the bars.
posted by Mercaptan at 8:43 AM on September 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

Omon Ra: I just think the whole thing is a bit ridiculous kmz. I completely get the criticizing of racist caricatures of the Any Rooney variety, but other than that I dunno. So Ben Kingsley impersonating a jew is fine but Anthony Quinn playing Auda abu Tayi in Lawrence of Arabia is wrong? Where do you draw the line?

I'm mexican, btw, and I have no problem with Charlton Heston playing a mexican cop (in blackface!) in Touch of Evil. As long as the performance is honest, who cares.

Well, the issue is not so much the quality of the performance but the fact that Asians are underrepresented in acting roles. Historically, one popular justification for this underrepresentation has been "There just aren't very many Asian characters for Asian actors to play." However, this list shows many examples of Asian characters who could have been played by Asian actors, but instead studios chose to cast non-Asian actors. We also see characters who were Asian either in the source material or the original script, who have been changed so their race matches the actor the studio wants to cast--usually white. This of course brings up the question of why, then, if colourblind casting can go that way (Asian character re-written for white actor), it doesn't go the other way very often (white character re-written for Asian actor).

This is not an issue about acting talent or a film's artistic merit; it's about systemic racial exclusion.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 8:50 AM on September 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

knoyers: "Katherine Hepburn must be the fakest Asian there."

She looks Romulan.
posted by octothorpe at 8:50 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

when there's also a long history of, say, casting Latinos, African-Americans, and Indians as Middle-Easterners because, well, "they're all brownish, right?" isn't really better.

I also feel like Middle Easterner roles that go the actual actors of Middle Eastern descent are shared among 3 or 4 "that guy"s, the same few guys I've been seeing in the same roles since 3 Kings.
posted by Hoopo at 8:53 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Because it seems that much, much more often than not, there is a non-Asian (specifically, white) actor who is better for a role originally meant for an Asian one. So this is either a wide-spread and serious whitewashing problem or Asians are such sub-standard actors directors have no choice but to go with white ones. Which one makes more sense?

Or, there are other unrelated socioeconomic conditions that discourage Asian-Americans from entering the acting business.

Anecdotally, Asians are also severely underrepresented in every live theatre organization that I've ever worked in, including several that have maintained strong diversity initiatives targeted at this very area.

I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that Asians are bad actors -- however, it seems plausible and likely that there are factors keeping Asians out of film schools and acting programs.

Is there racism in Hollywood? Sure. And much of it is likely unintentional. However, I suspect there are many other factors at play here, and the pool of actors that even the most open-minded director has to choose from is certainly not representative of the American population at large. Our GRAR may be misdirected.
posted by schmod at 8:53 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I don't think the 13th Warrior really counts. Banderas is from Malaga, which was pretty much part of Muslim Spain at the time of the story. In fact, while Banderas plays the historical ibn Fadlan, the Vikings had already been visited, a few decades before ibn Fadlan, by al-Ghazal, who came from just the same corner of the woods as Banderas...

Well, it's not the most egregious example, no, but I do think it counts. Being a Spaniard from a part of Spain that used to be controlled by Muslims no more makes one ethnically or culturally Arabic than being from Texas makes Rick Perry a Mexican.

I know that sounds flippant, but I think it's actually a valid comparison.
posted by Amanojaku at 8:55 AM on September 14, 2011

hermitosis, does the Angelina Jolie example still count if Brad Pitt's the producer or whatever?

I... don't understand this question.


Sorry, I should have framed that better, and it had been a sad attempt at snark. That would it have mattered if the role was for a biracial person, a horse or a cow, if the producer's wife was cast in the leading role?


So Ben Kingsley impersonating a jew
And Mahatma Gandhi?
posted by infini at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2011

Kingsley is half Gujarati, at least.

I also feel like Middle Easterner roles that go the actual actors of Middle Eastern descent are shared among 3 or 4 "that guy"s, the same few guys I've been seeing in the same roles since 3 Kings.

Heh. Think of an older East Asian role played by an actual Asian. Was it James Hong? Or how about a generic middle-class Asian guy. Not as pervasive as James Hong, but there's a good chance it's gonna be Clyde Kusatsu.
posted by kmz at 9:02 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Heh, Ben Kingsley (born Krishna Pandit Bhanji) is English/Jewish on his mother's side and Gujarati Indian (like Gandhi) on his father's.

This is why Ben Kingsley can play everyone.
posted by griphus at 9:02 AM on September 14, 2011 [13 favorites]

Natar Ungalaaq, an inuit actor, would have been fucking fantastic in 30 days of Night.
posted by PinkMoose at 9:04 AM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Also, in the last of the '30s-'40s Mr. Wong detective movies, the main character was actually recast, replacing the yellowface Karloff that had made five terrific B pictures with the actually Chinese, but sadly also utterly boring, Keye Luke. It's an interesting moment in film history: you can almost see Luke breaking under the burden of uplift, acting like an Upstanding Good Guy all the time, and trying his damnedest to avoid anything that might resemble the camp Inscrutable Oriental Genius of Karloff's performance. Unfortunately the campy "Chinese Sherlock Holmes" shtick is pretty much all that makes the Karloff Wong movies enjoyable — so Luke's shot at the role ends up looking like someone trying to make a new Thin Man movie by playing Nick Charles as a humorless teetotaler.

I also feel like Middle Easterner roles that go the actual actors of Middle Eastern descent are shared among 3 or 4 "that guy"s

As long as this shit keeps getting Saïd Taghmaoui work, it's pretty much okay with me.
posted by RogerB at 9:05 AM on September 14, 2011

As long as this shit keeps getting Saïd Taghmaoui work, it's pretty much okay with me.

I was just about to say that. I snarked about LOST for picking an Indian guy to play an Iraqi upthread, but it also had Taghmaoui, so it all worked out in the end. Also of note: Alexander Siddig, of DS9 fame. I single him out mostly because I like to inform people that his real name is Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abderrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi.

Awesome.
posted by Amanojaku at 9:13 AM on September 14, 2011 [4 favorites]

Was it James Hong?

OMG DAVID LO PAN!
posted by Hoopo at 9:13 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Seconding the love for Natar Ungalaaq. If you've never seen Atanarjuat: The Fast Runner, it's an amazing film (entirely cast with Inuit actors, incidentally).
posted by stinkycheese at 9:14 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

The full bio in IMDB's excellent entry on Anna Mae Wong cites numerous occasions where the she lost parts to white women (especially Myrna Loy) for being "not Asian enough".
posted by Nibbly Fang at 9:16 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abderrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi.

Awesome.

This has me curious now to know what's the back story on that name. Especially if there's some heritage or history involved.
posted by infini at 9:21 AM on September 14, 2011

Looks like it:

His maternal uncle is English actor Malcolm McDowell, with whom he appeared in 2008 in Neil Marshall's Doomsday, and his paternal uncle is the former Sudanese Prime Minister Sadiq al-Mahdi. He is also descended from Muhammad Ahmad Al-Mahdi.

So he's related to both Malcolm McDowell and a messiah. No wonder Bashir was such a badass.
posted by kmz at 9:28 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yes, the backstory on Alexander Siddig's name is that it's his patrilineal heritage (Siddig son of Tahir son of Fadil son of Siddig, etc), and he comes from a renowned family on his Sudanese side. He's a descendant of this guy, who successfully proclaimed himself a messiah.
posted by lesli212 at 9:31 AM on September 14, 2011

My personal favorite "WTF? This guy isn't Asian!" has to be McGarrett's nemesis Wo Fat in the original Hawaii Five-O (played by "Khigh Dhiegh", a.k.a. Kenneth Dickerson: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0223556/bio). I mean, they had PLENTY of Asian and Hawaiian actors on the regular cast, generally playing normal people whose race was incidental to the script, and then every year or so they'd trot out this awful Fu Manchu villain to share the screen with the real Asians and expect people not to notice?
posted by mubba at 9:32 AM on September 14, 2011

I just think the whole thing is a bit ridiculous kmz. I completely get the criticizing of racist caricatures of the Any Rooney variety, but other than that I dunno. So Ben Kingsley impersonating a jew is fine but Anthony Quinn playing Auda abu Tayi in Lawrence of Arabia is wrong? Where do you draw the line?

I'm mexican, btw, and I have no problem with Charlton Heston playing a mexican cop (in blackface!) in Touch of Evil. As long as the performance is honest, who cares.

I'm on the same page. It's called acting for a reason, after all. Sometimes depictions were offensive. Sometimes they were honest attempts. I have no trouble judging by performance rather than by real life ethnicity.

Of course Hollywood is terribly conservative. It has nothing to do with corporations. All it means is that the movie industry is in it for the money. Which is why known, bankable actors were so often chosen to portray sellable stereotype ethnic characters. It's always crazy when people overlook money as a prime motivator in the way entertainment gets done.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:36 AM on September 14, 2011 [5 favorites]

He's cute nonetheless.
posted by infini at 9:38 AM on September 14, 2011

Of course Hollywood is terribly conservative.

It's also very lazy. It's amazing how the same guatemalan actress shows up as a maid in everything from Hugh Grant romcoms to Maria Sharapova Nike commercials.
posted by Omon Ra at 9:41 AM on September 14, 2011

Being a Spaniard from a part of Spain that used to be controlled by Muslims no more makes one ethnically or culturally Arabic than being from Texas makes Rick Perry a Mexican.

Except that I'm pretty sure that Perry's ancestors were nowhere near Texas when it was Mexican, whereas a substantial part of Banderas' were very likely already in Andalusia well before the first Muslims showed up...
posted by Skeptic at 9:43 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Ethnically "Arabic" is an extremely broad classification, too. Both these politicians consider themselves quite Arabic, you know...
posted by Skeptic at 9:49 AM on September 14, 2011

The Mrs. and I still love Breakfast at Tiffany's, and watch it ever so often, and the horror of Mickey Rooney's scenes are always this psychic/social speedbump that we must get through as fast as possible, all bumped and jaded. It's like, ahh, what a wonderful movie, shit, white priviledge and racism for a joke, aghggh.

In general I am 100% against any type of modifying a film once it is finished, a la Lucas and his ever tinkering. I think I would actually be willing to accept some masterful digital re-shoot where Mickey is just replaced with an annoying person, not necessarily of any particular racial origin.
posted by cavalier at 10:00 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

It's also very lazy. It's amazing how the same guatemalan actress shows up as a maid in everything from Hugh Grant romcoms to Maria Sharapova Nike commercials.

Funny how that works. Actors go to great lengths to develop their name and reputations to get precisely this kind of niche. For a long time, an actor like Henry Silva was the go to guy when you needed a Mexican/Asian/bad guy. I think in many cases, it's not so much being lazy but wanting to get things done by going with a known quantity.

It really is about money. The movie business isn't interested in making art so much as making art pay off.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

It's interesting that they included Yul Brynner in that list. True, he's not Thai. But he was born in Vladivostok. Should he have only been cast in parts where the character was explicitly of mixed descent, Asian born, but with Mongol, Swiss, Jewish, Irkutsk, and Romani ancestry? Chow Yun-fat isn't Thai, either, but he played the King, too. Why isn't he on the list?
posted by The World Famous at 10:11 AM on September 14, 2011

In general I am 100% against any type of modifying a film once it is finished... I think I would actually be willing to accept some masterful digital re-shoot

I've got news for you...
posted by nathancaswell at 10:22 AM on September 14, 2011

Should he have only been cast in parts where the character was explicitly of mixed descent, Asian born, but with Mongol, Swiss, Jewish, Irkutsk, and Romani ancestry?

Also, Peter (Baron von) Ustinov...
posted by Skeptic at 10:25 AM on September 14, 2011

This discussion is rife with unexamined privilege problems and also other semantics issues that antiracists (like me) tend care a lot about. I know it's not intended, but a lot of this assignation of blame as well as complaints about symmetry of treatment between celebrities and actors of different races is really very insulting. Both to the folks being talked about as well as showing your ass, if you're the one doing the talking.

As a ground rule, the situation as formulated by antiracist theory is that it's not possible to be stereotyped against if you are a member of the majority. For most of the purposes of this discussion, that would be white folks, or folks who are identified as white in general in the public eye. Yes the situation is a lot more complicated, but I urge folks talking about these topics to be aware that if you are comparing a disadvantaged person (in whatever power dynamic it is) to one who isn't and asking why treatment isn't equal, you have already answered your own question. Treatment isn't equal because circumstances aren't equal.

Also in general, I find both in personal life and activist (sex/sexuality/gender/gender rights) life that it's far better and far less complicated to let folks identify as who they will identify as and not provide assignations. When you do so you end up with the same problem Google has right now with the nym wars. When you assume authority, you get the added bonus of being responsible for your mistakes. And since in MetaFilter, discussion is often seen as responsibility-free (how could be responsible for mere conjecture?), I urge you not to go down that path - it leads through a swamp of ethics and morality that honestly I don't see a lot of folks who discuss things on MetaFilter often stepping up to be responsible to/for.
posted by kalessin at 10:25 AM on September 14, 2011 [6 favorites]

It's interesting that they included Yul Brynner in that list.
Charles Bronson, the West's best-known Lipka Tatar, didn't even get a look-in! Or any Asian roles that I can recall.
posted by Abiezer at 10:28 AM on September 14, 2011

When you say things like that it makes you sound like an anti-racist.
posted by nathancaswell at 10:29 AM on September 14, 2011

My nym is ethnic and not my own ethnicity. Still that is really bizarre about Charlie Chan being played by a guy from Sweden. For years.
posted by bukvich at 10:31 AM on September 14, 2011

Did I miss a memo about "nym" or something?
posted by nathancaswell at 10:36 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

They probably got your name wrong when addressing it.
posted by Abiezer at 10:37 AM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

They're missing a pretty prime example by Peter Sellers in Murder by Death, although I suppose it could be argued that the whole movie is meant to be satire. Still, his portrayal is really, really squirm-worthy.
posted by piratebowling at 10:44 AM on September 14, 2011

This is my nym. There are many like it, but this one is myn.
posted by griphus at 10:44 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

I just watched a documentary on George Leslie Mackay. Some of the footage was clips from a Taiwanese biopic about his life, where George was played by an Asian actor with a fake beard. It was a little unsettling.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 10:45 AM on September 14, 2011

nathancaswell: "Did I miss a memo about "nym" or something?"

It's a secret. Oh wait, it's NIMH that's a secret. Nevermind.
posted by octothorpe at 11:04 AM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

Rex Harrison was the original King in "Anna and the King of Siam". It's one of those things that I wish desperately to forget and unsee...
posted by pentagoet at 11:05 AM on September 14, 2011

John Wayne as Genghis Khan

what

If it makes you feel better, the role may have caused his cancer.

In general I am 100% against any type of modifying a film once it is finished, a la Lucas and his ever tinkering. I think I would actually be willing to accept some masterful digital re-shoot where Mickey is just replaced with an annoying person, not necessarily of any particular racial origin.

What if we replaced Mr Yunioshi with Jar Jar Binks?
posted by zamboni at 11:05 AM on September 14, 2011

Keep mum on Nimh, nimrod.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 11:06 AM on September 14, 2011

What if we replaced Mr Yunioshi with Jar Jar Binks?

Only if Jar Jar is replaced with Mr. Yunioshi in the Star Wars prequels.
posted by The World Famous at 11:13 AM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

It's a secret. Oh wait, it's NIMH that's a secret.

Now all I can think about is that book I read as a kid about the rats of NIMH, what was the lady protaganist's name "Mrs something and the rats of NIMH"

/end derail
posted by infini at 11:19 AM on September 14, 2011

John Wayne as Genghis Khan

Thank you and good night.
posted by Gator at 11:25 AM on September 14, 2011

nathan,

I said "In general I am 100% against any type of modifying a film once it is finished... I think I would actually be willing to accept some masterful digital re-shoot"

Then you said "I've got news for you..."

Go on...? Or am I missing something obvious?
posted by cavalier at 11:33 AM on September 14, 2011

It's really the racist caricatures that trouble me. Otherwise, it only bothers me when I get the gut feeling "there's something wrong with this picture" because of poor characterization or because casting choice breaks believability. If I believe the character/story, I don't really care who's in the role. The fact that I myself am multi-ethnic and am perpetually mistaken for all the wrong races probably plays into my viewpoint. Ethnicity is not an inherent thing that a human is born with. Caring about the actor's genetic lineage is beyond my comprehension, and strikes me as kind of horrible.

This is not to say I don't think asian and middle eastern actors are underrepresented in US films. And I'm kind of tickled that people other than me know who Alexander Siddig is!
posted by zennie at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I don't feel that Walken in balls of fury fits in this so well. The fact that there was a race switch from "enter the dragon" is the joke. The only thing asian about walken's character was his name and dress, the rest of the character was partially making fun of the fact that he was playing an asian role.
posted by Philipschall at 11:43 AM on September 14, 2011

As a ground rule, the situation as formulated by antiracist theory is that it's not possible to be stereotyped against if you are a member of the majority.

This is of course easily disproved at the local level, and completely unintelligible if your worldview includes places where the majorities are different. (The comment that follows this usually explains how all words in the sentence have been redefined to fit the theory.)

Also, Alexander Siddig is awesome. I want him in more big roles.
posted by Winnemac at 11:49 AM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

The fact that something is done in comedy excuses it from criticism? In my world, not so.
posted by kalessin at 11:51 AM on September 14, 2011

Winnemac, did you just take the sentence out of context so you could disprove it? If I recall correctly, I think I copped to how the reality is not as simple as the ground rule but still asked that the ground rule be kept in mind.

But I guess if we're going to use the rhetorical style of putting words in each other's mouths to make points, we can do that. I just want to know what the rules are.
posted by kalessin at 11:54 AM on September 14, 2011

The fact that something is done in comedy excuses it from criticism? In my world, not so.

I think it's less the fact that it is comedy and more that it is a direct satire of the problem the website presents.
posted by griphus at 11:59 AM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Now all I can think about is that book I read as a kid about the rats of NIMH, what was the lady protaganist's name "Mrs something and the rats of NIMH"
/end derail
posted by infini at 2:19 PM on September 14 [+] [!]

Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH
now derail is ended.
posted by jb at 12:02 PM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

thank god, I was worried I'd have to make an Ask before being able to sleep tonight
posted by infini at 12:16 PM on September 14, 2011

Oh yeah, I wasn't attributing such an absolutist view to you kalessin. I just think it's a poor groundrule. Ground rules should be the solid part of any theory, not the thing most easilt toppled.
posted by Winnemac at 12:17 PM on September 14, 2011

I think it's less the fact that it is comedy and more that it is a direct satire of the problem the website presents.

Which does, in fairness bring to mind Blazing Saddles, which I think is hilarious, but I think that it's master-class in regard to satirical treatments of racism. Not so sure that Balls of Fury is master-class.
posted by kalessin at 12:17 PM on September 14, 2011

Oh yeah, I wasn't attributing such an absolutist view to you kalessin. I just think it's a poor groundrule. Ground rules should be the solid part of any theory, not the thing most easily toppled.
posted by Winnemac at 12:18 PM on September 14, 2011

Winnemac, coming from an empiricist upbringing, I want to agree with you but I have to volunteer my own viewpoint, which is that when you get to human interaction and POV, it becomes impossible to come up with any ground rule that cannot be toppled. I think that building a bridge needs to assume and rely on good intent and good behavior and allowing ground rules to just stand.
posted by kalessin at 12:19 PM on September 14, 2011

Alexander Siddig, of DS9 fame. I single him out mostly because I like to inform people that his real name is Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abderrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi.

As someone with, I hope, a bit more awareness, for a lily-white dude, of the realities of the Arab world*, I was very pleased when DS9 came out and they listed him as Siddig El-Fadil. My heart sank a couple of seasons later when it appeared as Alexander Siddig; another casualty of the mindnumbingly stupid Hollywood aversion to "exotic" names (at least when the names are from suspicious minorities. At least Chinese names have begun to appear unchanged - only because of more economic clout?)

One out of many other cringeworthy moments in Hollywood was that movie starring two assholes (and one nice actress), True Lies (a bored viewing on TV - I'd never pay money…), where Pakistan-born Art Malik played the big bad Ay-rab terrorist. I can't really fault him for taking the role, I guess - actors gotta pay the rent - but jeezis, what a cartoon…

(*My childhood best friend's dad was a prof of ancient near-eastern studies who took their family to East Jerusalem in the period just before the Six-Day War, had many Palestinian friends there, and had to leave in a hurry when the Israelis invaded their neighbourhood, so I got to hear a lot more about the Palestinian side of things than was common back then; and back in the 80's I studied Arabic for a year with a very bright, multilingual woman from Baghdad, a fiery feminist, very critical of the prevailing Arab male sexism, who nonetheless was very proud of her heritage.)
posted by Philofacts at 12:29 PM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

As far as movies About Race are concerned, Blazing Saddles is pretty much like a magic spell you can only do when the stars are in perfect alignment. There is no way a movie like that could have been made even a few years before or after when it was made.
posted by griphus at 12:30 PM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Ethnically "Arabic" is an extremely broad classification, too. Both these politicians consider themselves quite Arabic, you know...

I do know. You know who doesn't consider themselves quite Arabic? Antonio Banderas. It's not so broad of a classification that it includes "Spaniard."
posted by Amanojaku at 12:44 PM on September 14, 2011

Siddig derail:
In line with Philofacts' comment, my understanding was a major reason that Siddig el Fadil chose to change his screen name was because people kept mispronouncing it. But his son Django's name was changed because of increased anti-Muslim sentiment after 9/11.
posted by zennie at 12:49 PM on September 14, 2011

I do know. You know who doesn't consider themselves quite Arabic? Antonio Banderas. It's not so broad of a classification that it includes "Spaniard."
posted by Amanojaku at 3:44 PM on September 14 [+] [!]

I don't consider myself a Scot or speak a word of Gaelic, but I could play a Scottish mime convincingly. Or a Scot with a Sean Connery accent (add -sh to every thing). Because I have ancestors from the British Isles, including Scotland. Actually, I've also been asked if I were Turkish or Iranian, so apparently I could pass for that as well (at least for the Somali man who asked me - maybe to him all white people look alike from Iceland right through to Afghanistan).

I totally understand people getting angry about Euro-Americans/Canadians playing Chinese and other Asian characters. It's a practice which resulted from and contributed to the racist exclusion of non-whites from professional acting, and which helped promote racist stereotypes (though I think these racist stereotypes may have been just as prominant had the actors been Asian - black actors were forced to play those charactitures if they wanted to work).

But fussing about a Spaniard playing a tenth-century Arab? That's getting silly - it's like fussing that they hired actors of British descent to play Norwegians or Swedes (the Vikings down the Volga tended to be Swedish). Which they probably did.
posted by jb at 1:03 PM on September 14, 2011

I'm surprised my go-to-example of whitewashing didn't make it in there: Keanu Reeves in Little Buddha. Reeves played Siddhartha Gautama. Let me repeat that; Reeves played Buddha. BUDDHA.

Also, Goku is a cartoon superhero.

Dragon Ball is a Japanese manga turned anime that is based on one of the most well known pieces of Chinese literature ever written, Journey to the West. I'm curious to know how you're justifying that?

They redefined the part, not tried to fake like he was Filipino. It's the equivalent of casting Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate instead of some blonde dude.

People have a serious misunderstandings about this movie. I don't know if you noticed but the whole cast, except for maybe two (maybe?) secondary characters, are white. Seriously. All the major themes of the book, like civic virtue and multiculturalism, were stripped out in favor of guns and explosions. No, seriously, go read the book. It wasn't redefined at all. It's a facile and racist rendering.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:10 PM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

You're a Vietnamese director, filming a musical drama (for TV) about the American War (i.e. the Vietnam War). A major character is a dastardly US soldier named Stewart, but you can't find a Western expat to play the part, let alone sing it. Fortunately, there's nothing that a blonde wig, a fake beard and a smirk can't fix (self-links to pics taken some years ago in a hotel room in Hanoi).
posted by elgilito at 1:40 PM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

According to the internet, Keanu Reeves is one quarter Chinese, one quarter Hawaiian, half English, and a Canadian citizen. Consulting my melanin swatches, I think that means he has every right to play Buddha, as long as he does so politely and while wearing a loud shirt.
posted by condour75 at 1:45 PM on September 14, 2011

I'm surprised my go-to-example of whitewashing didn't make it in there: Keanu Reeves in Little Buddha. Reeves played Siddhartha Gautama. Let me repeat that; Reeves played Buddha. BUDDHA.

That's the most horrible thing I've ever heard. Seriously. That's worse than Dracula.

According to the internet, Keanu Reeves is one quarter Chinese, one quarter Hawaiian, half English, and a Canadian citizen.

I don't think it's an ethnicity thing. I think it's giving Keanu Reeves parts that are not a) written for someone who cannot act or b) excellent adventures.

I had a weird moment myself a few years back when I was watching Angel and Gunn described Cordelia as white. I had this weird double-take moment; I knew Charisma Carpenter was Latina, after all. And then I was like, wtf, self? She can play a white character. (I later learned that she's half German, quarter Cherokee and quarter Spanish, so I was sort of wrong on all counts.) My initial thought was to say that a POC can't play a white character, but I didn't question when white people play characters of color, and I was like, wow, that's pretty racist of me.
posted by NoraReed at 1:48 PM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'm curious to know how you're justifying that?

Justify what? This is supposed to be a list of movie roles played in yellow face. "Yellow face" means that the non-Asian actor is playing a character who is Asian. Goku is not asian in the film so it doesn't fit with the list. In fact, Goku is not Asian in the comics or animation either. Like superman, he is an alien from another planet who achieves amazing power through exposure to the sun moon. He also frequently transforms into a blonde guy, so there's that.

If this were a list of roles that could have been played by Asian actors, Goku would go in there, but neither the character or the presentation fit with the idea of yellow face.
posted by Winnemac at 1:50 PM on September 14, 2011

Reeves 1/8 Chinese, not 1/4, and I still don't think that means much. Bruce Lee was 1/4 German, that didn't help him get any non-asian roles.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:54 PM on September 14, 2011

Dean Cain is a quarter Japanese and he played Superman.

Wait hang on what are we arguing about?
posted by griphus at 1:56 PM on September 14, 2011

Wait hang on what are we arguing about?

Superman vs. Goku: Who would win?
posted by Winnemac at 2:04 PM on September 14, 2011

Wait hang on what are we arguing about?

White people getting Asian roles. And since people seem to be confused on this I'll relate a simple little story. When I was younger I was having a conversation with a black friend of mine about another friend who was half white/half black. I said "He's doesn't look black to me. He looks half and half." My friend says "Yeah, but how do view him? What label is immediately placed on him?"
Reeves is a white guy. So is Cain.

Goku is not asian in the film so it doesn't fit with the list. In fact, Goku is not Asian in the comics or animation either. Like superman, he is an alien from another planet

He's not asian in the film because they changed the character to white, so yes it fits perfectly in the list.
Goku is asian in the comics and in the cartoons. Just like Superman who looks exactly like a white dude who has powers, Goku looks just like an asian dude who etc.. I'm not about to have the "all cartoon people are white" argument here so if that's what you're pushing, good luck with that one.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:05 PM on September 14, 2011

I'm surprised my go-to-example of whitewashing didn't make it in there: Keanu Reeves in Little Buddha. Reeves played Siddhartha Gautama. Let me repeat that; Reeves played Buddha. BUDDHA.

Well, if they were looking for somebody who can let go of all emotion, or at least act like it, then Keanu was the obvious choice...
posted by Skeptic at 2:06 PM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Heh, messed up my own story:

My friend says "Yeah, but how do view *people generally look at* him?
posted by P.o.B. at 2:07 PM on September 14, 2011

Superman vs. Goku: Who would win?

Well, on the one hand Superman has a weakness to kryptonite, magic weapons and being under a red sun. On the other hand, Dragonball Z is fucking stupid.
posted by griphus at 2:10 PM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Dragonball Z is fucking stupid.

Hold on, I need to power up for ten episodes before I respond.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Just like Superman who looks exactly like a white dude who has powers, Goku looks just like an asian dude who etc..

Wait. So if Goku is not actually Asian, but is actually a non-Asian who just looks Asian, why is it a problem to have him portrayed by an actor who, like the character, is not Asian?
posted by The World Famous at 2:15 PM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'm not about to have the "all cartoon people are white" argument here so if that's what you're pushing, good luck with that one.

Are you sure? You seem really eager to randomly bring it up.
posted by Winnemac at 2:17 PM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

Wait. So if Goku is not actually Asian, but is actually a non-Asian who just looks Asian, why is it a problem to have him portrayed by an actor who, like the character, is not Asian?

Because imagine the colossal hissyfit that would occur if a black actor was cast to play Superman.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:21 PM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

Wait. So if Goku is not actually Asian, but is actually a non-Asian who just looks Asian, why is it a problem to have him portrayed by an actor who, like the character, is not Asian?

Wait second, you do realize there is no such thing as aliens? Right? I mean let's set aside it is an Asian character through and through. The basically what I'm hearing is that it's okay to make him white because reggardless of the fact he has been protrayed as an Asian for 20ish years it's col to make him white because he's an alien? Cool! I want a black, or better yet an Asian Superman.

On preview - shakespeherian beat me to it.

Are you sure?

Yes, I've seen it rehashed in all it's stupidity enough times to realize where you were going with that. Or am I mistaking this for a good faith discussion?
posted by P.o.B. at 2:25 PM on September 14, 2011

I don't think it's an ethnicity thing. I think it's giving Keanu Reeves parts that are not a) written for someone who cannot act or b) excellent adventures.

Oh, heartily agreed. Although maybe the secret to attaining Nirvana is just finding a way to stop Samsara without going under 50mph and exploding.
posted by condour75 at 2:27 PM on September 14, 2011

Because imagine the colossal hissyfit that would occur if a black actor was cast to play Superman.

So, um, it's a problem because people throw a hissyfit?

Wait second, you do realize there is no such thing as aliens? Right?

There's no such thing as the fictional character, either. When the creator of a work of fiction changes something about the fictional character, they're changing something that is no more real than aliens.

The basically what I'm hearing is that it's okay to make him white because reggardless of the fact he has been protrayed as an Asian for 20ish years it's col to make him white because he's an alien?

He hasn't been portrayed as Asian. He's been portrayed as a non-Asian posing as Asian. But it was done through animation and drawings, so it was a far more convincing impersonation than the live-action version was able to pull off.

I want a black, or better yet an Asian Superman.

I'm fine with that. And I'm pretty certain there would not be a significant amount of objection based on the notion that casting an Asian actor as Superman is racist.
posted by The World Famous at 2:30 PM on September 14, 2011

I'm fine with that. And I'm pretty certain there would not be a significant amount of objection based on the notion that casting an Asian actor as Superman is racist.

Oh, yeah, it'll go as smoothly as when Marvel debuted the new Hispanic Spider-Man.
posted by griphus at 2:34 PM on September 14, 2011

He hasn't been portrayed as Asian. He's been portrayed as a non-Asian posing as Asian. But it was done through animation and drawings, so it was a far more convincing impersonation than the live-action version was able to pull off.

Right, so he's an Asian character. Just like Superman is a white character. Therefore white guy as Goku is whitewashing the character.

I'm pretty certain there would not be a significant amount of objection based on the notion that casting an Asian actor as Superman is racist.

You seem to miss the point about that shit just ain't going to happen. That's why it's racist.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:35 PM on September 14, 2011

Yes, I've seen it rehashed in all it's stupidity enough times to realize where you were going with that. Or am I mistaking this for a good faith discussion?

Looks, I don't understand why you feel the need to put words and ideas in people's posts that aren't there. If you want this good faith discussion, you shouldn't do that. I don't believe that cartoon characters are white, and I don't believe that I implied they were. I've seen more than my share of these shows and recognize that while some characters are meant to be European looking (Ed Elric and pop literally fit right into Weimar Germany for instance) and others are explicitly Asian, most are pretty ambiguous.
posted by Winnemac at 2:35 PM on September 14, 2011

This is a little tangential, but I was a little surprised when I read Anno-Dracula (which I otherwise loved) to discover that Fu Manchu was included as a character. I thought, hmm, I don't think it's really okay to do that.

And reading this article, with its numerous examples of movies about Fu Manchu, made me look him up on Wikipedia. Where he is described as "the yellow peril incarnate in one man." Which is a pretty conclusive summary as to why you should not include Fu Manchu in your mash-up of fictional and historical characters.
posted by overglow at 2:38 PM on September 14, 2011

You seem really eager to randomly bring it up.
...
you shouldn't do that.

I agree, you shouldn't do that.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:41 PM on September 14, 2011

And I'm pretty certain there would not be a significant amount of objection based on the notion that casting an Asian actor as Superman is racist.

I think you're completely ignoring all sorts of context in this assertion. Virtually all of our (Western) leads/heroes/superheroes are white, and usually they're also dudes. Casting an Asian guy as Superman wouldn't be called racist, but it would certainly be discussed, because it's difficult to imagine that such a casting decision was made without the intent to make some kind of statement w/r/t race or demographics, because it's creating a difference-- suddenly a superhero who was white like all the other superheroes who are white is not white! What does this mean!

On the other hand taking a character who is not white and casting a white actor to play that character is not necessarily going to be read with intent to make a statement about race or demographics, because the character has been made white just as virtually all other leads/heroes/superheroes are white. It's removing a difference. That's what makes it problematic.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:42 PM on September 14, 2011 [3 favorites]

I agree, you shouldn't do that.

Forget it man. Take your internet trophy.

Casting an Asian guy as Superman wouldn't be called racist, but it would certainly be discussed, because it's difficult to imagine that such a casting decision was made without the intent to make some kind of statement w/r/t race or demographics, because it's creating a difference

This is absolutely true. Actually, given the general stagnation of Superman's popularity this might be a good idea. It would lend itself pretty well to all the Time Magazine covers and such. It's not really the best comparison though because it would be reconfiguring a domestic franchise for an domestic audience, as opposed to a foreign franchise being localized.
posted by Winnemac at 3:00 PM on September 14, 2011

it would certainly be discussed, because it's difficult to imagine that such a casting decision was made without the intent to make some kind of statement w/r/t race or demographics,

The discussion would also revolve around the fact that "Nobody had a problem with him being white? Why fix something that isn't broken?" Oddly, this we're basically having this very saame conversation about an obvious Asian character that has thousands of years of history behind him except it's "Well you see he's actually an alien, so... it's cool."
I mean he's a representation of The Monkey King for crap's sake.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:02 PM on September 14, 2011

foreign franchise being localized.

Right, because American films are not shown all over the world.

Oh, wait...
posted by P.o.B. at 3:03 PM on September 14, 2011

Looking at the new (non-white) Spiderman, I'm actually intrigued by a super-hero comic for the first time in my life (whereas I read lots of other comics). So as a crass marketing and interest-grabbing ploy, worked for me.
posted by jb at 3:13 PM on September 14, 2011 [1 favorite]

I can't find the original comment about Goku and Dragonball Z, but that idea was interesting to me because for whatever reason I never considered voice actors as part of this phenomenon. Then I googled and found out they made a live action version of Dragonball with a white guy as Goku. I have to say I was happier in my ignorance.

Not so sure that Balls of Fury is master-class.

It is if we're talking about Ping Pong.
posted by Hoopo at 3:31 PM on September 14, 2011

We discussed this, Elizabeth.
posted by wreckingball at 3:39 PM on September 14, 2011

Goku becomes a gigantic guy with yellow hair and green eyes when he turns into a Super Sayan. And Bulma has blue hair. We're talking about a Japanese fantasy inspired by a Chinese one where actual ethnicity does not seem to play such a important role since the main two characters are a monkey and a pig. Not everything should be interpreted through the filter of American racial issues.
posted by elgilito at 3:41 PM on September 14, 2011

I'm not American, but Dragonball is Japanese as all get-out and whether or not it's inspired by something Chinese is not really relevant. Lots of Japanese stuff has origins in China.
posted by Hoopo at 4:03 PM on September 14, 2011

It's like whackamole with weird logic in here. Let's take this in small steps

Goku becomes a gigantic guy with yellow hair and green eyes when he turns into a Super Sayan.

Yep, it's a fantasy show that is presented and resides in a media were Goku and a bunch of other people have all kinds of powers that can turn your hair blonde as a differentiating technique to show they've powered up. The show makes no sense at all until you take a short couple of minutes and look at where it comes from.

And Bulma has blue hair.

Yep, like a bajillion other Japanese characters. It's also a differentiating technique.

We're talking about a Japanese fantasy

Exactly!

inspired by a Chinese one

Correct!

where actual ethnicity does not seem to play such a important role since the main two characters are a monkey and a pig.

Buwhaa? Wait, weren't you just talking about *Japanese* *fantasy* derivated from a *Chinese* *folk tale*? How did we get to the part where ethnicity doesn't matter and animals as characters are an odd inclusion in a fantasy?

Not everything should be interpreted through the filter of American racial issues.

We are talking about an American film. It's kind of hard to not exclude the "racial issue" when it is the sole reason for the change in all the characters physical makeup in the first place.

Let's be clear here folks. You know that thing were they always take an Asian character and make them white? It's called whitewashing. It's not like this happened in some kind of special "alien character" vacuum without a shit ton of previous examples.
posted by P.o.B. at 5:02 PM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

It looks like it has it's own trope: Race Lift
posted by P.o.B. at 5:06 PM on September 14, 2011

But fussing about a Spaniard playing a tenth-century Arab? That's getting silly - it's like fussing that they hired actors of British descent to play Norwegians or Swedes (the Vikings down the Volga tended to be Swedish). Which they probably did.

So the argument is that he's ... close enough? I honestly really don't know if I can explain why that's not a counter-argument so much as it's the perfect illustration of the problem. Because matters of geographical proximity and shared ancestral genetic make-up are not the issue here. Spain wasn't subject to Orientalism; they were participating in it. Spain was a colonizer, not a colony. (Let's save the "But starting in eighth century..." derail.)

In spite of the eight miles separating Spain from Morocco across the Strait of Gibraltar, the Spanish do not share that cultural heritage, and they no more get to lay claim to it than the French or the Italians or anyone else. Spain being close to North Africa doesn't make it North Africa. Antonio Banderas convincingly portraying an Arab doesn't make him one. And that's the point. Yes, it's a respectful portrayal, not "yellowface"; as I said up-thread, I liked the movie, have no ire for the guy, and don't really take issue with it. But it's still important to remember that Latinos/African-Americans/Indians/Arabs/All other various distinct "brown people" are not interchangeable, no matter the commonalities they do have, and treating them as such can be pretty offensive, for reasons I hope I've outlined here.
posted by Amanojaku at 5:15 PM on September 14, 2011

What about the case of a (white) genius who creates comedic asian roles that, IMO, not only elude racist stereotyping but work as incisive commentary on race in Australia? What about that? It's yellowfacing, no doubt, but doesn't Chris Lilley get a pass? Or are white Australians just generally insensitive when it comes to race and ethnicity? Too many questions? RSVP?
posted by Roachbeard at 5:52 PM on September 14, 2011

I mostly follow individual incidents on Angry Asian Man, but it's nice (and sad) to see them all in one place like this.

Angry Asian Man is great. He also linked this hilarious video a few days ago: How To Hit On An Asian Girl
posted by homunculus at 6:30 PM on September 14, 2011

Spain wasn't subject to Orientalism; they were participating in it.

No, they were subject to the The Black Legend. Which was more pervasive and more negative than Orientalism ever was.

Also, seriously - Spain wasn't colonised? How do you think the Moors got there is the first place?

If we were discussing the relationship between Spain and its American colonies, maybe you would have a point. But we're talking here about Spain and Bagdad, who don't have colonial relationship.

And why does Antonio Banderas have to be an Arab to play one? Can no gentile play a Jew? I'm "do not share that cultural heritage" of the United States, but I would be cast to play an American in a flash (if I were a professional actor). Because I can ACT. And I have played Jewish characters, though I am not of that gifted people.

We cast all white people interchangably - why not cast brown people interchangably? I've not heard of any brown actors complaining; they are happy for the work, and happy for the interesting creative challenge of playing people from different cultures.

An ideal world would, of course, have colour-blind casting - but that's probably never going to come do to the hyper-realism of film.
posted by jb at 6:35 PM on September 14, 2011

Anecdotally, Asians are also severely underrepresented in every live theatre organization that I've ever worked in, including several that have maintained strong diversity initiatives targeted at this very area.

I was really into theater as a kid; from grade school all the way up to high school, I was in one or two school productions a year and dug it immensely. Then, suddenly, as soon as I entered the "serious business" of high school theater, I just wasn't getting called back anymore. Actually, I wasn't even really being given notes or a second reading anymore. I started to see that as soon as I walked in the door, the director's eyes glazed over. So why bother? I switched over to doing a lot of tech and stage manager work during high school, and then I just stopped being part of it altogether.

That's one anecdote, which likely does not stand for any sort of whole. But I wonder, anecdotally, how many Asians you might find running lights and nailing boards. I wonder how many of them might have wanted to be actors at some point but decided it just wasn't worth the hassle.
posted by Errant at 7:10 PM on September 14, 2011

I tried to stop a 'comedian' using the stereotypical 'fake Chinese' voice on a radio show I produced, but nobody had a problem with it. Ugh. Whenever I see him I point out that he's a racist.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 7:15 PM on September 14, 2011

Yellow Face: The portrayal of Asian characters by whites employing make-up and exaggerated stereotypes.

Race Lift: What occurs when a character's race or ethnicity of a character is changed in the creation of a Derivative Work.

These are mutually exclusive concepts.
posted by Winnemac at 8:45 PM on September 14, 2011

I'm way too dumb right now to get into whatever this thread is about, so as a palate-cleanser after all that yellowface I'll just leave this here:

Awesome Asian Actors and filmmakers Acting Amazingly on Youtube!
- Freddiew - explosions! gaming hilarity! asians not studying!
- Nigahiga - general hilarity and dorkiness!
- Kevjumba - comedy! asians not studying!
- Jimmy - singing! acting!
- Davin Tong - peter chao!
- Wong Fu Productions - indie shorts! asian-americans being asian-americans!
- Charice Pempengco - singer now on Glee!
- Maria Aragon - technically a singer but cute as a button!

Funnily enough, the amount of hits the above generate (Freddiew, man, dude has 2 million+ subscribers!) suggests that there is a market and desire for more Asian faces in mainstream media - laziness aside, if Hollywood is really into making more and more cash you'd figure they'd be smart enough to tap into that. WE HAVE MONEY. Make awesome stuff and you can have it!

not stuff like that crap Dragonball Z or that dumbass card counting movie or that that godawful Airbender travesty. stop making that stuff. more Harold and Kumar-level awesomeness.

actually just more John Cho please
posted by zennish at 10:46 PM on September 14, 2011 [2 favorites]

These are mutually exclusive concepts.

And... ? I mean, we're not going down another strawman road again like "it's all right because (he's an alien / it's not yellowface / the character is ambiguously white)" are we? Surely you don't think it's all right to give every single Asian part to white people for some ridiculous reason like demographics or something.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:07 AM on September 15, 2011

crap Dragonball Z or that dumbass card counting movie or that that godawful Airbender travesty. stop making that stuff.

Let me solve your problem real quick: stop watching shows meant for 13 year olds.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:13 AM on September 15, 2011

In spite of the eight miles separating Spain from Morocco across the Strait of Gibraltar, the Spanish do not share that cultural heritage

Are you sure? This is a picture from Banderas' hometown.

Now, I am Spanish, you see, and only a very ignorant and/or racist Spaniard would deny our Arabic cultural heritage, which is all over Spain's architecture, food, language...

This is particularly marked in Andalusia, and especially in a sea harbour like Malaga, which has trading ties with the whole Mediterranean going back to the Phoenicians.

Add to that the fact that, contrary to your apparent perception, during the Muslim "conquest" and subsequent Christian "reconquest" of Spain, the elites changed (and only partially), but most of the populace actually staid put. Indeed, even the expansion of Islam throughout North Africa was carried by a comparatively puny group of Arab conquerors, with the locals converting to Islam en masse once they saw on which side their bread was buttered. And the conquering Arabs, like the Spanish New World conquistadores after them, were quite ready to marry locals. The result is that, on both sides of the Mediterranean, the genetic pool is quite mixed. Banderas certainly has a hefty dose of Arab blood in him. And so do I.
posted by Skeptic at 4:30 AM on September 15, 2011 [5 favorites]

what about the thirteen year olds P.o.B.
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 4:49 AM on September 15, 2011

They get to have all the fun of not being jaded grown ups.
posted by P.o.B. at 4:59 AM on September 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Airbender was a travesty - but I've heard the original anime is good - should I seek it out?
posted by jb at 9:45 AM on September 15, 2011

YES. The cartoon is one of the best TV shows to have been made in recent years. The first few episodes are a little slow, but it quickly settles into its pace and becomes three seasons of wonder! Seriously, nothing at all like that wretched fucking film. I very much recommend you watch the cartoon version of Avatar: The Last Airbender!
posted by Greg Nog at 10:07 AM on September 15, 2011

I very much recommend you watch the cartoon version of Avatar: The Last Airbender!

I kept hearing this, put it on my Netflix, put in the first disc and made it literally 60 seconds past the intro before I had to turn it off due to the voice acting and ham handed exposition. I just couldn't bring myself to overlook it.
posted by nathancaswell at 10:11 AM on September 15, 2011

Surely you don't think it's all right to give every single Asian part to white people for some ridiculous reason like demographics or something.

It's the invisible (but caucasian) hand of the market!
posted by running order squabble fest at 10:23 AM on September 15, 2011

The result is that, on both sides of the Mediterranean, the genetic pool is quite mixed.


Definitely - e.g., Celts & Vandals made their way into North Africa during the fall of the Roman Empire (and Visigoths into Iberia.) Sicily is another example of multiple influxes from varied sources. One of my housemates when I was at Berklee, a trumpet player from Long Island, was second-or-third generation Sicilian on his dad's side (and Mexican on his mom's, so he likely has a bit of the North African Arab genome from both as well as Native American from his mom), and he speculated that his kinky hair and light-olive complexion (and his dad's) most likely came at least in part from North African sources. That was the first time I'd thought about it, but it makes sense for the same reasons as in Spain.

Wherever there are empires, and especially where they meet, and particularly when they're decaying and thus more porous, we're gonna be mutts. Which is a good thing. (The jazz musician Joe Zawinul, from Vienna, and of mixed Austrian/Romani ("gypsy") blood himself (and who married a black woman), thought that the most creative places were in the crossroads of empires - like the Austro-Hungarian of his grandparents' day - where different peoples mixed.)

Anyway, enough derail. (But probably less of one than Airbender tangents.)
posted by Philofacts at 10:31 AM on September 15, 2011

No, they were subject to the The Black Legend. Which was more pervasive and more negative than Orientalism ever was.

It's not a contest, so I'll just say this: one of them is a much greater problem for its targets right now. One of them is being used to foster fear and paranoia and racism right now. One of them is influencing wars and geopolitical conflict right now. One of them is a "positive" version of something that's infecting a large chunk of the US population right now. I'll let you guess which one it is.

Also, seriously - Spain wasn't colonised? How do you think the Moors got there is the first place?

I'll refer you back to my statement: (Let's save the "But starting in eighth century..." derail.) Thanks.

If we were discussing the relationship between Spain and its American colonies, maybe you would have a point. But we're talking here about Spain and Bagdad, who don't have colonial relationship.

Actually, I'm just talking about the fact that one of them was colonized; the other, a colonizer. Period. There's no particular animosity between North Africans and Spaniards (indeed, many Moroccans and Algerians love them, because of the constant contact with tourists). But it still puts them on opposite sides of the modern geopolitical coin, and that's a huge difference to ignore.

We cast all white people interchangably - why not cast brown people interchangably?

Because many white people can't tell the difference between different kinds of brown people as it is. Why do you think bias attacks on Indians, Sikhs, and Pakistanis went up post-9/11? Because Antonio Banderas isn't stuck playing terrorists, but somehow Hollywood can still find "authentic Arabs" for those roles -- funny, huh?

I've not heard of any brown actors complaining; they are happy for the work, and happy for the interesting creative challenge of playing people from different cultures.

You haven't heard these particular brown actors complaining, because it gives them more work. Many Arab-American actors have commented on the lack of roles for them outside of "terrorist villain." Maybe when you can name an Antonio Banderas or Denzel Washington of obvious Middle-Eastern lineage working in Hollywood, then the boundaries might be a little looser, or vanish altogether. In the meantime, consider this the first complaint you've heard, and file it away to go with the next one.
posted by Amanojaku at 1:01 PM on September 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

Now, I am Spanish, you see, and only a very ignorant and/or racist Spaniard would deny our Arabic cultural heritage, which is all over Spain's architecture, food, language...

And vice versa: having just spent much of the summer visiting my father and cousins in and around Tangier (including Ceuta), there's obviously much that has been borrowed in both directions. But you'll note how you still self-identified as Spanish?

White people can enjoy rap all they want; they're still not going to be pulled over for driving a nice car. It's great that Spaniards appreciate their Moorish architecture; it doesn't get them placed on no-fly lists, or discriminitory laws levied against them.

Add to that the fact that, contrary to your apparent perception...

I'm not sure how I gave that impression; I'm really quite aware: I get mistaken for a Spaniard all the time.

The result is that, on both sides of the Mediterranean, the genetic pool is quite mixed. Banderas certainly has a hefty dose of Arab blood in him. And so do I.

One of the (many) reasons people are concerned about casting minorities is so that when people of that group are watching a movie, they can see people who represent them. And if you ask any given group of Middle-Easterners/North Africans whether they feel adequately represented in Hollywood -- in particular, by Antonio Banderas of all people -- does anyone really think a sizable portion of them are going to say yes?

Honestly, I have to wonder whether some of the confusion here might simply be a European/American thing; obviously the closer proximity of all the countries on the Mediterranean make them more familiar with each other. Here, in the US, not only is that familiarity not present, but it's more urgent that it be rectified.

a trumpet player from Long Island, was second-or-third generation Sicilian on his dad's side (and Mexican on his mom's, so he likely has a bit of the North African Arab genome from both as well as Native American from his mom), and he speculated that his kinky hair and light-olive complexion (and his dad's) most likely came at least in part from North African sources.

And is less-delicately explained in "True Romance."
posted by Amanojaku at 2:17 PM on September 15, 2011 [1 favorite]

White people can enjoy rap all they want; they're still not going to be pulled over for driving a nice car.

Yes, but that's because of the way they look, not because of the specifics of their actual ancestry.
posted by The World Famous at 2:20 PM on September 15, 2011

Yes, but that's because of the way they look, not because of the specifics of their actual ancestry.

Which brings us all the way back to the topic of people who are put in starring roles in the movies.
posted by infini at 2:54 PM on September 15, 2011 [2 favorites]

Came across another surprisingly modern one: Brian Dennehy as Kublai Khan in Marco Polo (2007).
posted by XMLicious at 11:48 PM on September 30, 2011

Brian Dennehy as Kublai Khan in Marco Polo

If we don't seal the vortex between realities now, more one-liners from 30 Rock will leak into our world. It's the only way, Captain!
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:26 AM on October 2, 2011 [1 favorite]