But frankly, as an American, I don't feel all that comfortable pointing fingers and laughing at the Italian justice system. It's not like an innocent person has never gotten wrongly convicted and as a result spent significant time in prison for it in the US.I don't know. I'm pretty comfortable saying that both the Italian and the American justice systems are fucked up. I'm confident many Italians would agree.
She has some visible psychopath traits, but also some autistic traits (and those have a lot of overlap from 20,000ft), combined with her story adding up to her pretty clearly hiding something because she was afraid of getting into more trouble.Ok, seriously, what? What is a "visible psychopathic trait", exactly?
" ... let me tell you about my own experience with Mignini, because, when I was writing 'The Monster of Florence', he called me in for an interrogation.posted by ericb at 2:37 PM on October 3, 2011 [29 favorites]
I had irritated him with my theories. And he accused me of being an accessory to murder. He accused me of being -- of involvement in satanic rites and satanic sex. And he demanded that I confess to all these crimes that I had committed, and, if I didn't, that he would indict me in -- for perjury.
And, when I didn't confess to these nonexistent crimes, he did in fact indict me for perjury and suggested that I leave Italy. And, so, this is a very abusive prosecutor. He makes up theories. He's -- he's -- he's obsessed with satanic sex.
And let's not forget that his original theory of the crime was that this was a satanic killing, that -- that Meredith Kercher was murdered in a satanic rite, that -- that, somehow, Amanda Knox was a satanist.
I mean, these are crazy theories."
"But [Mignini's] American detractors have claimed his investigation was a 'railroad job from hell', starting from the moment he questioned Knox for hours without a lawyer, coaxing her into naming an innocent man, Patrick Lumumba, as the likely murderer, to his suggestion that Knox and Sollecito's slaying of Kercher was inspired by the occult."And, her Italian was very rudimentary at the time of the interrogation.
She has some visible psychopath traits, but also some autistic traits (and those have a lot of overlap from 20,000ft), combined with her story adding up to her pretty clearly hiding something because she was afraid of getting into more trouble. From there it isn't much of a leap to suppose she's a psychopath covering up her role in a murder. Or maybe she's a geeky kid covering up drug/sex games gone wrong. Miscarriage of justice in any case, so correct result.That just seems like bullshit to me, the basic media smear bullshit. The media created a strawman version of her that was "drawn Bad", when in reality she might have been pretty normal. If someone took every odd or unusual thing you'd ever done, then narrated it to scary music, how do you think it would make you look to people who didn't know you?
and if it wasn't for pure luck, Patrick Lumumba, the man Knox tried to pin the whole thing on would probably had been sent to prison for a very long time despite his innocence. -- 2manyusernamesWhat Knox claimed was that she was coerced into confessing, and named him because she thought he would have an air-tight alibi. Pretty stupid, but the police ruled him out pretty much right away.
Anyway, I hate the effect this must be having on the Kerchers; they have no daughter to come home, and now no culprit. -- fightorflightExcept for the guy who actually did it.
I don't believe a single person posting here has been following the trial in any more depth than the news reports, yet everyone, just like my friend, feels they have the ability to scream 'she did it' or 'she's innocnet you moron' as if they were there. It's sick and it's boring. -- ciderwomanFirst of all, what we thought all along was just validated by the higher court. Second of all -- and this is important -- the most basic facts of the case indicate she didn't do it. Like the fact she had an alibi with lots of witnesses (I suppose the prosecutor thought they were all satanic co-conspirators) the fact that there was no physical evidence and very importantly the fact there was tons of physical evidence linking the crime to a completely separate person who didn't know Knox or her boyfriend. Given those facts alone, it seems insane for people to think that she did it. Also, we've read up about the case. You don't need to know every single detail.
I am in NO WAY saying I think she did it. What I am saying is that I find a lot of the anti Italian Court rhetoric slightly worrying (it feels like 'oh we can't get a fair trial outside the US' to me) -- ciderwomanNo no, we don't think you can get a fair trial in the US at all. Actually over the past week there were some pretty problematic cases. Troy Davis, who was executed despite having bad evidence and coerced witness testimony (most of the witnesses recanted). There was also the West Memphis Three being released -- in that case two people were just released from prison after 18 years for a murder they very clearly didn't commit. One of them had been sentenced to death. And they were convicted on the same bullshit 'satanic' and personality factors that Knox was convicted on.
There are inconsistencies, for example why did the boyfriend not remember if he was with Knox, why did he say he downloaded the film she said they watched when his computer wasn't used?People don't always remember everything accurately. And ultimately who knows? It's actually pretty irrelevant to whether or not the couple murdered someone
Your argument against the "eye movement stuff" is correct right up until the point that you assume the west memphis three are innocent, that Amanda Knox isn't a psychopath.If my argument seems wrong to people who think the west Memphis three are guilty, then I'll take that as confirmation that I'm correct. Thank you.
However there was physical evidence, circumstantial evidence, and a confession. Given that, if you think she convicted for basically being a devil worshipping sex pot, then I think you owe it to yourself to take a look at why you think that.See, the problem with using vicious, misogynistic, slut-shaming garbage in a criminal trial is that it's really not possible to determine whether someone was convicted because of the vile misogyny or because of the DNA evidence and/or confession. One would think that would be a good reason not to contaminate your trial with really repulsive misogyny, but I'm sure that's naive.
delmoi: You once again miss the point, which is that it is impossible to form a properly informed opinion from what you read in the news even if the proverbial broken clock is occasionally right.I don't think that's even remotely true. It's obvious that people can look at the facts of a situation and come to a conclusion about it. We do it about everything else in the world, why not murder cases as well?
Is it so hard to admit that there's something with bias going on?I think there was clearly some initial bias going on. But I think if you look at the facts it's pretty obvious she's innocent.
Indeed. I very strongly think that relying on news organizations to reliably and fully convey these facts is futile.Indeed. If only there was a website where news could be "filtered" through comments from intelligent people into some "meta" analysis.
1) Lying to save your own ass: She tried to frame another person for murder.She lied after an extremely long, terrifying interrogation. This is not unusual, and it's not evidence of being a psychopath.
3) Lack of empathy: a) stories about her going shopping or so on the day after her murder and generally not being too concerned.She was locked out of her apartment, where all of her clothes were, because it was a crime scene. She had to go shopping because she had no clothes to wear. This is not evidence of being a psychopath. The fact that the British and Italian media spun it that way is evidence of some moral problems on their part, though.
4) Promiscuous behavior. Lots of partners according to her diary.We know, because the prison authorities tricked her into revealing all her sex partners, that she had slept with seven men. A man who had slept with seven women would never in a million years be considered so promiscuous as to be a suspected psychopath. Again, this is evidence of the British and Italian press's misogyny, not anything wrong with Amanda Knox.
5) Narcissist behavior: apparently enjoyed the media attention.What evidence do you have of that?
6) Superficial Charm: Putting this last on the list, because I am least sure about it, but I remember some accounts that described her as charming.I am sure that someone, somewhere, has described you as charming. Let's find a murder to pin on you!
“What are you still doing here?” a well-dressed woman shouted at our NBC crew as we sat down for dinner at a local restaurant Tuesday. “Isn’t your job done?”I'm having a disconnect. How is it that the American media somehow affected the outcome of a trial in a small burg in Italy? Do Italians normally get their new from American media? Is the American media some sort of coercive powerful entity that bullies judges and juries in Italy?
She, like many others around here, blame the American media for what they say was a pro-Knox campaign that influenced the jury’s decision.
"Seven young girlfriends of murder victim Meredith Kercher testified in a Perugia courtroom today that accused killer Amanda Knox had been been behaving strangely and, in their words, ‘inappropriately.’Give me a fucking break! All hearsay ... and fundamentally gossip!
The young women, friends who had studied and spent time together in Perugia with Kercher, provided almost identical versions of what Kercher allegedly had told them about Knox in the few weeks that they lived together and what happened after Kercher was found dead.
In repeated questioning by the prosecution, the first two witnesses, Robyn Carmel Butterworth and Amy Frost, portrayed Amanda Knox as an emotionally indifferent person with what they termed odd habits.
They referred to what British student Kercher had confided to them about Amanda Knox's behavior, some of it annoying and some of it simply perplexing. They also told the court what they observed about Amanda Knox at the police station after the murder.
‘Kercher talked to me about their relationship,’ Butterworth said in English, as an interpreter translated into Italian for the court. She complained about Amanda Knox's bathroom habits, often a complaint between roommates, Butterworth said
‘Sometimes, the bathroom was not clean and the toilet not flushed,’ Butterworth said, ‘and Meredith didn't know what to tell Amanda, so she asked us for advice.’
Another thing that Kercher had remarked upon with her friends, and which the witnesses were questioned repeatedly about, was Amanda Knox's putting an open toiletry bag in their shared bathroom that contained condoms and a sex toy.
‘Meredith thought this was a bit strange,’ Butterworth testified. ‘It didn't upset her but she said it was strange.’”
"[The] magistrate in [the] Meredith Kercher murder case is himself waiting to find out whether he will be jailed for abuse of office.posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on October 4, 2011 [2 favorites]
The criticisms [of his actions in the Knox case] will have come as no surprise to a man who has strongly believed for years that opponents were secretly plotting his downfall.
... Mignini continues to work as he awaits his appeal, which starts on 22 November.
Mignini has claimed Douglas Preston, the US novelist who challenged Mignini's theories about the Monster of Florence, is masterminding a US press campaign against him over his handling of the Knox case. 'It's all Preston,' he said.
So it was unsurprising that Mignini should add a touch of conspiracy theory to his summing up in the Knox appeal, claiming that 'our judicial system has been subjected to a systematic denigration by a well-organised operation of a journalistic and political nature'.
"About 50% of all criminal convictions in Italy are reversed or greatly modified on appeal. Knox and Sollecito join the 4 million Italians since the war who have seen their lives ruined by false criminal charges, only to be proclaimed innocent after many years of agony and imprisonment.posted by ericb at 2:45 PM on October 4, 2011 [4 favorites]
While they don't like others pointing it out, many Italians are well aware that their judicial system is dysfunctional. Silvio Berlusconi is absolutely right when he says the judiciary needs fundamental reform. The Italian judiciary, a holdover to a great extent from the Mussolini era, when Italy was a police state, acts with no checks and balances, in which prosecutors and police wield enormous power.
If you are arrested for a crime and have no alibi, you are in very serious trouble. The de facto burden of proof is on you to prove your innocence, despite lip service in the Italian constitution to the idea of innocent until proven guilty.
The Italian justice system often seems more concerned with preserving the honour and reputations of powerful individuals than with finding the truth. This, in a nutshell, explains why Knox and Sollecito were not released when Guede was identified, why dubious DNA and forensic lab work was relied upon, why prosecutors and police leaked so much damaging and salacious information to the press, and why these two innocent young people spent 1,450 days in prison for murder they did not commit. It was all about honour, reputation, and the saving of face."
As for the promiscuity thing, I thought it was seven partners within a few months after she came to Italy, which struck me as above average.It was seven ever, total, in her entire life. Three of them were since she'd been in Italy.
"There was no convincing proof that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were actually in the room when Meredith Kercher died. Even the presence of Amanda Knox's blood and footprints in the house were successfully explained away. Her defence claimed that Knox's blood could have been there because she was a resident at the farm house on Pergola Road."You mean based on the thoroughly refuted DNA evidence that was thrown out because they used a scientifically invalid measurement that's likely to lead to contamination? I don't recall anyone saying Knox's 'blood' was found anywhere, just her DNA, which could have come from skin cells or anything else.
Hey, I never said she is a psychopath, just that some of her behavioral patterns seem to match that of one.Yeah if you take a single anecdote from someone's entire life then anyone could be made to look like a 'psychopath'. You don't think there's been, in your entire life, a time that you didn't appear to be empathetic? You've never lied in your entire life?
For a year, Knox and Sollecito were kept in preventive detention – Italy has no bail system – while Mignini, the police, and various forensic experts built the case against them. Crucial evidence that could have exonerated them was lost or mishandled. For example, the hard drive on Sollecito's computer, which could have shown he was on his computer during the time of the murder, was "fried'' by investigators as they supposedly tried to copy it.posted by delmoi at 4:23 PM on October 4, 2011 [3 favorites]
As for the promiscuity thing, I thought it was seven partners within a few months after she came to Italy, which struck me as above average.It was seven ever, total, in her entire life. Three of them were since she'd been in Italy.
Why did she name him? Would you have done that?I have no idea what I would have done, and neither do you. Years ago, a neighbor of mine falsely confessed to raping and murdering his own mother after hours of grueling interrogation, only to be exonerated by DNA evidence. Kevin Fox falsely confessed to murdering his 3-year-old daughter. I'm not arrogant enough to be sure that I would be able to resist that kind of pressure, and you shouldn't be either.
The four-year saga showed the world that "the credibility of [Italy's] justice system is beyond a joke," wrote Giuliano Ferrara, chief editor of the conservative daily Il Foglio in a front page piece comparing Ms. Knox to Mr. Berlusconi.posted by ericb at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2011
"Your Amanda, our Berlusconi: each his or her own hostage to Justice," wrote Mr. Ferrara in the open letter to foreign reporters published both in English and Italian. "For years we have been trying to explain to you that Italy’s biggest problem is not [Berlusconi] ... but a Media-Justice 'inside the Beltway' complex that has turned Italy into the very opposite of a country under the Rule of Law."
Ferrara's comments echo those of other influential Berlusconi backers who have long blamed Italy's judicial system for the fact that the prime minister is involved in several trials ranging from corruption to underage prostitution. So it is no surprise that some are now attempting to turn the Knox trial into the case for Berlusconi. Political agendas aside, however, their attacks of the judiciary reflect a growing distrust among Italy's citizens.
According to a July poll by Ipr Marketing polling agency, 59 percent of Italians put "little or no trust at all" in the justice system. (Berlusconi has posted the poll on his website).
One of the biggest problems of the Italian judiciary is the length of trials, on average between four to six years, due both to bureaucracy and a system where three separate degrees are almost mandatory - meaning that after the first trials two appeals are de facto automatic. There could still, in fact, be a third trial for Knox, though the Seattle student is unlikely to come back to Italy.
"Knox was well-coached before the appeals trial. She had learned her lesson that the American tendency to smile at everyone is not always a good idea, and throughout the summer she barely looked back at the crowds at all. Many interpreted this as strength and stoicism, but from yesterday’s display, it was clear that she was at the end of her rope. I don’t care what insults the attorneys hurled—she-devil, demon—when they saw this human being physically drawn back from the brink of despair, it might even have made them shudder a little."*posted by ericb at 11:28 AM on October 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Katie Crouch asks an important question in the wake of the Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito exoneration: What can be done to stop a circus like this one from happening again? There are a number of important flaws in traditional systems of justice that this case helped expose, especially with regards to how character assessment of the defendants is weighed too heavily and actual evidence too lightly, and perhaps addressing those problems could help significantly. That said, one thing that could help is looking at the dangers of an overly simplistic view of prejudice and privilege. [...more...]"posted by ericb at 11:31 AM on October 5, 2011
"The failure and the triumph of Amanda Knox's story are both specific to an American woman in a foreign justice system whose framework differs critically from our own. If Knox were homely, or modest, or male, she'd probably never have been charged to begin with. But it's also likely that, once convicted, a different Amanda Knox wouldn't have held the interest of the court long enough to be freed. The passions of the investigators and, arguably, of Knox herself, led to her conviction and, paradoxically, to her acquittal and release.posted by ericb at 11:40 AM on October 5, 2011 [1 favorite]
... Knox had every reason, until her arrest in November 2007, to believe that cops and judges existed to protect her. Why wouldn't she? A gorgeous middle-class white American college student on a study year abroad is someone by whom society has done pretty well. Hers is the passion of a comfortable kid who can't quite believe things aren't working the way they're supposed to. And the most peculiar and riveting aspect of [her] appeal statement that helped free her is the persistence of that faith. She punctuated her points with respectful, but assertive, gesticulations. It's the way you dream (literally, in nightmares) about appealing to captors. 'I'm not escaping truth. I never escaped. I'm not fleeing from justice,' Knox said. No, guys, don't you get it? I'm on your side!
It worked. Well, her statement worked, following years of international pressure and a damning report in which court-appointed experts found 54 errors in the original investigators' procedure and handling of evidence.
... In Italy, investigators propound a single, supposedly objective story in order to establish the absolute truth of a crime. Their purpose, at least in theory, is to determine truth, not to prosecute a defendant. Defense lawyers' ostensible role is not to present an opposing story, but to support the defendant in the investigation. The judge is not neutral, but is a member of and guiding presence on the jury, which renders its verdict by simple majority. This 'inquisitorial' process stands in contrast to the American adversarial system, in which two sides -- prosecution and defense, in a criminal trial -- present competing stories. An impartial jury must reach a unanimous verdict, and a presiding judge approves it.
The single-narrative structure of the Italian system lends itself to the kind of runaway train that was Amanda Knox's legal journey. First she was a Satanic ritual orgy killer; then she was jealous; at one point she was said to have slaughtered Kercher in a marijuana-induced rage. The case stuck because it was interesting to the investigators, and it survived the 2008 conviction of a third defendant, Rudy Guede, because the investigators shifted their version of Knox's (and Sollecito's) role as the evidence changed. They weren't necessarily looking to railroad her, but they couldn't look away from the case that involved a beautiful girl, foreign college kids, and DNA on a bra clasp. Knox's own lawyers notoriously characterized her as 'Jessica Rabbit' at one point, to distinguish the sexy and warm defendant from the diabolical murderer the investigators saw.
American litigators are constantly accused of being too aggressive, of picking fights, of acting like pit bulls. Our two-sided system of zealous advocacy has serious flaws. But supposed impartiality has more insidious effects than does frank opposition. Amanda Knox's own zealous participation -- in fun, in adventure, in guileless cooperation with investigators -- ensnared her in legal and personal horror. 'I insist on the truth,' Knox said yesterday. 'It deserves to be defended and acknowledged.' She respectfully challenged authority to correct itself and to do its job. An admittedly privileged, American woman expected no less."*
On whether she's a psychopath, as well as sour cream's list (fingering her boss in retaliation stands out - the police didn't just make that up), and my suspicion that her seat of consciousness isn't where everyday people would expect it, and the fact she was somehow involved in a murder... I'd put the chances of psychopathy around 70%. That says nothing about whether she's guilty of anything.Yeah, it's probably in her hypothalamus or something instead of her Penial gland where it belongs. Descartes proved it.
Personally, I've determined you are 86.21% likely to have no idea what the hell you're talking about, and I arrived at this figure by pulling it out of my ass.I'm quite sure the figure is 100%.
"Your Amanda, our Berlusconi: each his or her own hostage to Justice," wrote Mr. Ferrara in the open letter to foreign reporters published both in English and Italian. "For years we have been trying to explain to you that Italy’s biggest problem is not [Berlusconi] ... but a Media-Justice 'inside the Beltway' complex that has turned Italy into the very opposite of a country under the Rule of Law."Does Berlusconi actually want a country with a rule of law? I kind of doubt it.
"There was too much tension," he said. "There was too much attention on this case and that was because of the excessive media interest. People got fired up.That's why I said what I did (before retiring) that it was not a football match and I didn't want cheering."posted by BobbyVan at 1:19 PM on October 5, 2011
"Instead, well, too much was made out if it. Then there is the political background, many wanted Amanda in prison because she was American," Hellman added.
Amanda Knox 'Could Make Millions From TV And Press Deals'posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on October 5, 2011 [2 favorites]
"She'll write, because that's her way of dealing with things," her stepfather, Chris Mellas, was quoted as saying by The Guardian.*posted by ericb at 2:53 PM on October 5, 2011
- Boyfriend Sollecito (or whatever his name was)That one confuses me. If she's guilty, they committed the crime together. If she's not guilty, she may have been singled out because she was a young and sexy and owned a vibrator and had had at least one one-night stand, and he may have been co-accused because of guilt by association. But that wouldn't be her fault, because she wouldn't be guilty. So how exactly did she ruin his life? Did her satanic slut vibes force him to commit a murder or something?
The owner of a Milan nursery school testified in court that Rudy Guede had broken into her school and stolen a big kitchen knife. Nursery school owner Maria del Prato testified that she had stopped by her school Saturday Oct. 27, when it was closed, and came upon Guede in her office.3) He is described as a "troubled youth" well known to the local police.
"I asked him who he was," she told the court, "and he replied perfectly calmly, even though I had caught him red-handed." Del Prato said he told her he was "a kid from Perugia" who had arrived the night before and had nowhere to sleep.
Del Prato doubted his story, as her locker had been opened, and she said she believed Rudy was looking for something to steal.
Not to flog a dead horse, but I just thought of another indicator of psychopathic behavior: leaving a trail of wrecked lives in one's wake.What the fuuuuuuck? If anything, all you've done is show that the prosecutor (who was under indictment for abuse of authority before Meridith was even killed) might be a 'sociopath' because he the principle agent in ruining those people's lives (excluding Meridith, but including her family). In fact all the people in your list are psychopaths because their lives have all been ruined and they were all related!
So basically, what you're saying is that being accused of a crime is evidence of being a psychopath.Not only that, but by his definition any victim of a crime is also a psychopath. Just look at how many of the people who associated with Meredith Kercher had their lives ruined!
I have said that there are several indicators that point to a psychopatic nature. No single one of those indicators makes you a psychopath.If you're not a clinical psychologists examining someone in a clinical setting, please, shut the fuck up.
« Older At long last, Factory Balls 4 is complete. Go for... | “What About The Men” is a term... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Is it bad that this made me literally laugh out loud?
posted by nathancaswell at 1:48 PM on October 3, 2011 [11 favorites]