"Food is very important here," said Hazan of the parents federation, "and we can't have children eating any old thing."

October 12, 2011 9:19 AM

"We absolutely have to stop children from being able to serve those sorts of sauces to themselves with every meal. Children have a tendency to use them to mask the taste of whatever they are eating."

The French government, in an effort to honorably represent traditional Gallic cuisine to its schoolchildren, has banned the indiscriminate application of ketchup during school meals, reserving it only for the once-weekly serving of Gallic fries.

No word on the mayonnaise...

posted by obscurator (165 comments total)

Are you telling me that even the french don't call them french fries?
posted by crunchland at 9:21 AM on October 12, 2011 [6 favorites]

When did France become an authoritarian parody of itself?

It seems a little weird that they, of all cultures, wouldn't know that condiments / dressings often make food palatable.
posted by zarq at 9:22 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

They can take my ketchup when they pry it from my luke warm, greasy fingers.
posted by Senator at 9:24 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

It seems a little weird that they, of all cultures, wouldn't know that condiments / dressings often make food palatable.

The proper application of sauce is a very serious matter, which children must learn early.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:24 AM on October 12, 2011 [20 favorites]

How are the French kids supposed to get all their servings of vegetables now?
posted by Hoopo at 9:25 AM on October 12, 2011 [4 favorites]

"We absolutely have to stop children from being able to serve those sorts of sauces to themselves with every meal. Children have a tendency to use them to mask the taste of whatever they are eating."

Say what you want, haters. But at least their leaders aren't pushing ketchup onto kids as a "vegetable".
posted by hal_c_on at 9:25 AM on October 12, 2011 [27 favorites]

Golf clap for "Gallic fries"
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:26 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'd like a similar policy in my house (I can't stand ketchup), but I'm afraid that my daughter would introduce me to Madame La Guillotine.
posted by oddman at 9:26 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Fucking Ronald Reagan.
posted by hal_c_on at 9:26 AM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

hal_c_on: " Say what you want, haters. But at least their leaders aren't pushing ketchup onto kids as a "vegetable"."

THERE ARE EGGS IN CHOCOLATE CAKE. AND MILK!
posted by zarq at 9:26 AM on October 12, 2011 [16 favorites]

The relevant Yogi Bear clip.
posted by The Confessor at 9:27 AM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

What about purple? Purple's a fruit, right?
posted by shakespeherian at 9:27 AM on October 12, 2011 [4 favorites]

And what the LA Times should be doing instead of just reporting on this is mailing the French some tubs of Umami Burger ketchup and nipping this thing in the bud. No one's banning that stuff, je te promets.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:27 AM on October 12, 2011

I'd like a similar policy in my house (I can't stand ketchup), but I'm afraid that my daughter would introduce me to Madame La Guillotine.
posted by oddman at 9:26 AM on October 12 [+] [!]



I made it msyelf a couple times, and it improved the taste dramatically over that Heinz crap.
There are dishes that want Ketchup, they're just not, you know, very classy.
posted by Stagger Lee at 9:28 AM on October 12, 2011

Good plan. I'm still traumatized by childhood incidents when someone else's ketchup somehow managed to touch my food.
posted by philip-random at 9:28 AM on October 12, 2011 [8 favorites]

I put ketchup on my French toast. Suck on that, France!
posted by Hoopo at 9:29 AM on October 12, 2011 [4 favorites]

Considering that French public schools consider part of their mission educating children about food, to the point where bringing lunches to school is essentially forbiden, I'd say this is a reasonable move.

You can't taste the food if you're the sort of cretin who drowns everything in ketchup.

There's times and places ketchup is appropriate, but I'm down with trying to keep it from being the only flavor kids appreciate and enjoy.
posted by sotonohito at 9:30 AM on October 12, 2011 [14 favorites]

Memories....
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:30 AM on October 12, 2011 [6 favorites]

When did France become an authoritarian parody of itself?

About the same time America became a libertarian parody of itself. The late 1700's were an interesting time for everyone.
posted by bicyclefish at 9:31 AM on October 12, 2011 [26 favorites]

When did France become an authoritarian parody of itself?

What is even remotely authoritarian about this? Is there a God-given right to ketchup in taxpayer-provided school meals?
posted by Skeptic at 9:31 AM on October 12, 2011 [4 favorites]

Aioli is the best occidental condiment in terms of ease of making, flavor and affordability. With a handful of common ingredients, you have balanced, spreadable garlic. Is France upping aioli production to keep the children nourished?
posted by mccarty.tim at 9:32 AM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

When did France become an authoritarian parody of itself?

About the same time America became a libertarian parody of itself. The late 1700's were an interesting time for everyone.
posted by bicyclefish at 9:31 AM on October 12 [+] [!]

Let's not underestimate America. They've become parodies of authoritarianism and right wing libertarianism.
posted by Stagger Lee at 9:33 AM on October 12, 2011 [32 favorites]

Skeptic: "What is even remotely authoritarian about this?"

Banning things isn't authoritarian?

First they came for the headscarves and kippot. Then they came for the face coverings. Now they've come for the ketchup..... :)
posted by zarq at 9:33 AM on October 12, 2011 [4 favorites]

Damn kids, don't they know the only true seasoning is Aromat? Remember when we went to school in folkdräkt and the food sucked and we were like hey there's alltid knäckebröd och aromat! No? Well, enjoy your moldy and stale childhood memories then :)
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:33 AM on October 12, 2011 [5 favorites]

This is a subject that, for the French, borders on the same locale as sex education in North America.

We'd /like/ to have the parents be more involved with educating their children about healthy and varied sex food choices including abstaining from easy options like rutting like moose pouring sweetened sauce all over everything, but sometimes this isn't enough.
posted by clvrmnky at 9:34 AM on October 12, 2011 [5 favorites]

Having known people who will ruin nearly all of their food with ketchup, including expensive fish, steaks, etc., I am all for this.

Fuck institutional ketchup.

/firstworldproblems
posted by Mister Fabulous at 9:34 AM on October 12, 2011 [12 favorites]

Oh, France, I love you.
posted by infinitywaltz at 9:34 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

If the real import of this is a mandate that Schoolchildren must be served food that tastes edible without drowning it in ketchup, I support it 100% and wish that the USA would take the same stance.
posted by straight at 9:34 AM on October 12, 2011 [13 favorites]

In my dorm there were two schools of thought on how to deal with breakfast. The first said cover it in ketchup. The second said cover it in syrup (they had no advice for how to deal with the fake maple syrup).

I was of the syrup school.
posted by jeffamaphone at 9:37 AM on October 12, 2011

It seems a little weird that they, of all cultures, wouldn't know that condiments / dressings often make food palatable.

I think the point here is that overuse of certain dressings/condiments can lead to a situation in which the various foods become simply vehicles for getting more dressing/condiment into one's mouth. In this situation, the diner is not eating eggs or potatoes or steak or whatever, but instead is fundamentally just eating ketchup/ranch dressing/salsa/whatever. So I think the above quote is spot-on: some people use these sauces to mask the taste of the foods they are eating, because all they really want to eat is the sauce. This is how we end up with revolting practices like dipping pizza into ranch dressing, and people who will only eat three things.

Meanwhile, if the food itself tastes so bad that it needs to be drowned in sauce in order to be made palatable, that's a problem in and of itself that needs to be addressed. But assuming that the food actually tastes at least okay, there is also the notion of developing one's palate and learning to appreciate tastes beyond the sameness of ketchup or ranch dressing or whatever. I say bravo to the French for caring about this sort of thing.
posted by slkinsey at 9:38 AM on October 12, 2011 [13 favorites]

> When did France become an authoritarian parody of itself?

I don't know if I'd go that far since these measures are instituted by zealous individuals who don't necessarily represent Joe Frenchman, but this ketchup thing does speak to a larger issue. Stories like this one, burqa bans, and the like seem to indicate that people think there is a unique configuration of food, ideas, dress, and manners that they can look too as authoritatively "French". That's madness, of course. Very little if no elements of culture exist in a vacuum, or come ready made from On High.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 9:40 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

In my dorm there were two schools of thought on how to deal with breakfast. The first said cover it in ketchup. The second said cover it in syrup (they had no advice for how to deal with the fake maple syrup).

We're talking about breakfast and you didn't mention Cholula?

I will end you.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:40 AM on October 12, 2011 [14 favorites]

Having known people who will ruin nearly all of their food with ketchup, including expensive fish, steaks, etc., I am all for this.

If it tastes bad to them (ruins the food) then they will stop using it.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:41 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

That French government is so bossy.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 9:41 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

This is how we end up with revolting practices like dipping pizza into ranch dressing

ARGH! It just makes me so angry when people don't like the same things as me!
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:42 AM on October 12, 2011 [13 favorites]

This is fantastic!
posted by the painkiller at 9:43 AM on October 12, 2011

Are you telling me that even the french don't call them french fries?

"French fries" were probably invented in Belgium. From the Wikipedia article: "(...) in the south of Netherlands, bordering Belgium, they are called Vlaamse Frieten or "Flemish fries"."
posted by iviken at 9:44 AM on October 12, 2011

I think they'd be better off framing it as a health problem. Ketchup is loaded with sugar, often HFCS (not sure if that's an American phenomena due to domestic subsidies or if France has HFCS in their ketchup, too), and too much sugar can cause a variety of health problems. And kids almost always crave sweetness to a higher degree than adults, so rather than developing their palate and learning to appreciate other foods, they will binge on the sweet stuff.
posted by mccarty.tim at 9:44 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

> It just makes me so angry when people don't like the same things as me!

It's the same thing you see when British people get their knickers twisted up about American iced tea or something. We're talking about plant leaves here. While there could be a "proper" way to make a cup of tea, there are also other ways to use it that work. It would be like saying that you should only have boiled carrots or something.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 9:45 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

Everyone knows pomme frites are best dipped in mayonnaise, anyway.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:45 AM on October 12, 2011 [15 favorites]

This seems to be a well-meaning, if not sugar-coated HCFS prohibition. ahem
posted by obscurator at 9:45 AM on October 12, 2011

Ketchup: Le Sauce Américaine
posted by exogenous at 9:46 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

I think that many commenters here may not be familiar with the average french school meal. When I was at school in France lunch would generally be 4 or 5 courses, with a typical meal being something like artichokes for starters with a main course of braised trout followed by fresh strawberries and cream and then cheese. This was not a fancy private place, but a fairly average small provincial school.
posted by silence at 9:46 AM on October 12, 2011 [11 favorites]

Banning things isn't authoritarian?

Despite the "hurf durf France" tone of the LA Times and (oh God) "Torygraph" articles, what the French education ministry has actually done is not to "ban" ketchup (in the sense of having the food police check the pupils for any smuggled ketchup bottles), but to issue some quite sensible nutritional guidelines for public school canteens, which include serving condiments (and yes, mayonnaise is also mentioned, as is vinaigrette) only when they are actually appropriate for the dish. It must be noted that French public schools are nationally run.

The actual gist of these guidelines is that "at least five different dishes should be offered, including at least one main dish with a sidedish, and a dairy product". Here's a link to "Le Monde" (in French, but Google Translate is your friend).
posted by Skeptic at 9:46 AM on October 12, 2011 [6 favorites]

You can't taste the food if you're the sort of cretin who drowns everything in ketchup.

As a fan of curry, I must say there's nothing inherently wrong with having a sauce with overpowering flavor. However, my impression is that some types of French cooking (Provencal) try to accentuate the natural flavors of the food rather than spicing it up too much, or so they told me at that workshop thingy I went to at the Cordon Bleu a few years back. This can be a problem in places where you don't have access to fresh farmed vegetables, as anyone who has ever grown their own tomatoes can attest after a lifetime of eating industrial farmed tomatoes from the supermarket. The flavors that make those dishes great just aren't there. So if lunches in French schools are using high-quality ingredients, this is much more understandable than a North American school doing the same for the Grade-D slop they serve in high school cafeterias.
posted by Hoopo at 9:46 AM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

The French got it right.
posted by kmz at 9:47 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

We're talking about breakfast and you didn't mention Cholula?

I will end you.

hey hey! A discussion of bottled sauces and cholula gets mentioned before tapatio or sriracha? Fuck yeah! The wooden bottle cap means it classy, people.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 9:47 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

This looks extremely like shit reporting of some sort of healthy eating initiative in school canteens. The source for the LA Times story appears to be Murdoch's Times, and the other link is the Torygraph; looks more like a standard bit of light France-bashing from the UK right than the full story.
posted by Abiezer at 9:48 AM on October 12, 2011 [7 favorites]

Or on non-preview, what Skeptic said.
posted by Abiezer at 9:49 AM on October 12, 2011

Everyone knows pomme frites are best dipped in mayonnaise, anyway.

C'est vrai!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:49 AM on October 12, 2011

It isn't very surprising that the article only briefly mentioned health concerns as ketchup is just a salt and sugar sauce. It is a shame that there is a complex plan to improve the nutritional quality of school meals while educating about French cooking but the articles instead focus on LOLFrance.
posted by munchingzombie at 9:50 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

possession of more than 8 oz of Hunt's ketchup is a crime in many states.
posted by The Whelk at 9:50 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Vincent: You know what they put on French fries in Holland instead of ketchup?
Jules: What?
Vincent: Mayonnaise.
Jules: Goddamn.
Vincent: I've seen 'em do it, man. They fuckin' drown 'em in that shit.
posted by Fizz at 9:51 AM on October 12, 2011

It is a shame that there is a complex plan to improve the nutritional quality of school meals while educating about French cooking but the articles instead focus on LOLFrance.

Exactly. That article from the Telegraph is especially lame.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:52 AM on October 12, 2011

This is how we end up with revolting practices like dipping pizza into ranch dressing

Please tell me that this is some horrible sick fantasy that you read in a Clive Barker novel or something. I am not sure I can bear the thought of it being real....
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:54 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

This is how we end up with revolting practices like dipping pizza into ranch dressing

Please tell me that this is some horrible sick fantasy that you read in a Clive Barker novel or something. I am not sure I can bear the thought of it being real....

In India they use mustard as well. I've seen my cousins do this on many occasions.
posted by Fizz at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

The best school lunches I had as a kid were in France. There was no ketchup supplied.

(Worst school lunches: England. Custard seemed to go on everything, but did not improve the flavor of anything.)
posted by rtha at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2011

Who cares? Are we seriously at the point where we accept the crazy logic that all possible freedoms are only truly preserved by making them mandatory in every context and regardless of all other considerations?

If one of the points of school is to teach healthy eating habits, then why shouldn't schools be allowed to define their own dietary policies?

It's not like school cafeterias provide the only opportunity of these kids will ever have throughout the day for eating ketchup.

You know what? Hell, maybe it's the French government's fault for making a big grandstanding point about this instead of quietly implementing new menu guidelines without a lot of fanfare. Either way, big deal.

You fight my bosses new power here in Florida to deny me unemployment benefits for any conduct that doesn't take my employers' business interests into account on my own personal time, and then I'll take your attempts to look like you're fighting very seriously against the erosion of personal freedom when you bitch about french schools not offering ketchup anymore half-seriously. Maybe.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

zarq: "When did France become an authoritarian parody of itself?"

If authoritarianism means that French chefs dictate that only decent meals may be served in cafeterias, I may need to begin rethinking my political beliefs.
posted by schmod at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2011 [13 favorites]

Worst school lunches: England.
Nonsense - we boiled those vegetables to a mush specifically with your youthful teeth in mind!
posted by Abiezer at 9:59 AM on October 12, 2011 [5 favorites]

Are we seriously at the point where we accept the crazy logic that all possible freedoms are only truly preserved by making them mandatory in every context and regardless of all other considerations?

Uh, yeah. Where have you been?
posted by Hoopo at 9:59 AM on October 12, 2011

In India they use mustard as well. I've seen my cousins do this on many occasions.

You have ruined an entire subcontinent for me. Nice going.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:02 AM on October 12, 2011

GenjiandProust: "This is how we end up with revolting practices like dipping pizza into ranch dressing

Please tell me that this is some horrible sick fantasy that you read in a Clive Barker novel or something. I am not sure I can bear the thought of it being real...."

Nope. It's pretty much normal practice for the soggy cardboard that folks south of the Mason-Dixon line seem to call "Pizza." You usually get a few cups of it for free with every pie. There are restaurants that serve Ranch dressing with everything on their menu by default. Which reminds me of the worst pasta Alfredo I've ever had; Ranch + Heavy Cream + Overcooked Spaghetti does not equal alfredo!

After moving from New Jersey to Virginia, I nearly threw up the first time I ordered a pizza. (The old) Dominos was the good stuff compared to the other options in town. The ranch dressing didn't help, although it did help you to forget that the food you are eating is supposed to be pizza.
posted by schmod at 10:03 AM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

What is up with the Franco Banhammer this week?
posted by Senor Cardgage at 10:04 AM on October 12, 2011

villanelles at dawn: "Golf clap for "Gallic fries""

Did anybody else automatically parse that as "Garlic Fries" the first 10 times around?

(And, why on earth would you put ketchup on delicious, delicious garlic fries!?)
posted by schmod at 10:05 AM on October 12, 2011

(Worst school lunches: England. Custard seemed to go on everything, but did not improve the flavor of anything.)

Even on chips?

Actually, that sounds like a right good idea...
posted by Jehan at 10:05 AM on October 12, 2011

This is how we end up with revolting practices like dipping pizza into ranch dressing

Please tell me that this is some horrible sick fantasy that you read in a Clive Barker novel or something. I am not sure I can bear the thought of it being real....

Oh yea... as far as I can tell this is a custom that arose among Midwestern college kids and has spread more widely as delivery companies like Domino's have begin to offer bread sticks with "ranch dipping sauce." The proliferation of "dip everything into the bland, fatty creaminess of ranch dressing" eating habits, I think, makes the French point for them quite emphatically.
posted by slkinsey at 10:05 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Forget Pizza, as long as I'm still allowed to put ranch dressing on my rice - I'm good.

It's amazing. Try it now.. before it's too late!
posted by Bron-Y-Aur at 10:10 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'm kind of astounded by all the people that are like "Woo, yeah! I hate ketchup so this is awesome! Everyone needs to eat the way I do! Kids should only eat things I like!"
posted by shesaysgo at 10:11 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

This is great! I'm not sure I understand the objections. They're trying to get their students to eat healthier.

Authoritarian? Thats ridiculous. These are schools. They also make you go to classes and try to learn things. I've heard that some even have dress codes.
posted by vacapinta at 10:15 AM on October 12, 2011 [5 favorites]

> I'm kind of astounded by all the people that are like "Woo, yeah! I hate ketchup so this is awesome!

Well, I think it's more that the way this change was mishandled. Rather than framing it about discrete menu choices not requiring particular condiments, they should've instead focused on ingredients in both the choices and the condiments. Sure, most ketchup is basically sugar and sludge. But, if this is a health issue then it should be done a bit more scientifically than trying to preserve the integrity of a dish.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 10:15 AM on October 12, 2011

Forget Pizza, as long as I'm still allowed to put ranch dressing on my rice - I'm good.

Flagged as offensive.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 10:16 AM on October 12, 2011 [11 favorites]

I'm kind of astounded by all the people that are like "Woo, yeah! I hate ketchup so this is awesome! Everyone needs to eat the way I do! Kids should only eat things I like!"

Really? Where do you get that?

I personally like ketchup (and ranch dressing for that matter). But that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to enable kids to drown everything in it. And that doesn't mean it's not a good idea overall to try to educate kids' palates so that they can hopefully appreciate and enjoy a wide variety of foods and flavors.
posted by slkinsey at 10:16 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm kind of astounded by all the people that are like "Woo, yeah! I hate ketchup so this is awesome! Everyone needs to eat the way I do! Kids should only eat things I like!"

I don't think many people here are saying that. Most are simply applauding the actual, quite sensible policy of not making condiments (ketchup included) freely available with every dish of every meal in French school canteens.
posted by Skeptic at 10:16 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

Rather than framing it about discrete menu choices not requiring particular condiments, they should've instead focused on ingredients in both the choices and the condiments.

Actually, that's exactly what they've done. The focus on ketchup comes only from the Francophobic reporting in the UK right-wing press (and the journalistic laziness of the LA Times merely reprinting other people's "news").
posted by Skeptic at 10:19 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

The source for the LA Times story appears to be Murdoch's Times

These days, the LA Times is completely indistinguishable from the Murdoch Times.
posted by blucevalo at 10:28 AM on October 12, 2011

This is how we end up with revolting practices like dipping pizza into ranch dressing

There is a much better practice in Buffalo. After dipping your wings in blue cheese and mixing the two sauces you then dip your pizza in it. This is the true cause of Buffalo's declining population: delicious heart attacks.
posted by munchingzombie at 10:30 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

One time, when I was maybe eight or nine years old, I put catsup on my steak. I was completely unprepared for my dad's reaction.

"I cooked us a STEAK, and you're going to ruin it with catsup?! Who taught you that? WHERE DID YOU LEARN THAT?!"

"I don't knoooow..." I sobbed. "I think I read it in a book or something. I'm sorry! I'm soorrrry!"
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:30 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Wait, you mean pizza isn't supposed to come with dipping sauce? This Canadian is shocked.
posted by Yowser at 10:30 AM on October 12, 2011

I'm kind of astounded by all the people that are like "Woo, yeah! I hate ketchup so this is awesome! Everyone needs to eat the way I do! Kids should only eat things I like!"

Well, yeah, ketchup is where I get political. It's bad for you, it covers up the taste of other things that are bad for you. It would certainly be a better world if we switched our marijuana and ketchup laws. I don't think anyone can seriously argue this point.
posted by philip-random at 10:33 AM on October 12, 2011 [7 favorites]

New High-Viscosity Mayonnaise to Aid in American Swallowing.
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:33 AM on October 12, 2011 [4 favorites]

good idea overall to try to educate kids' palates

You've never had kids, have you ?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:36 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

I put catsup on my steak

When I was 8 or 9 the idea of "rare" was sort of controversial in our house for whatever reason, so I doubt if ketchup would have been the worst thing we did to a steak. If you eat steak well done, you have no right to complain about ketchup.
posted by Hoopo at 10:37 AM on October 12, 2011 [7 favorites]

It would certainly be a better world if we switched our marijuana and ketchup laws. I don't think anyone can seriously argue this point.

Do not underestimate the lobbying power of the Heinz Corporation.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 10:37 AM on October 12, 2011

In other condiment-related news.

this thread is like one giant trigger for me. Bad, vinegary, over-sweet, sticky ketchup...get it off, GET IT OFF ITS TOUCHING MY FOOD
posted by peachfuzz at 10:38 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

Well, yeah, ketchup is where I get political. It's bad for you, it covers up the taste of other things that are bad for you. It would certainly be a better world if we switched our marijuana and ketchup laws. I don't think anyone can seriously argue this point.

In the grand scheme of things, this isn't that bad:

1 (28-oz) can whole tomatoes in purée
1 medium onion, chopped
2 tablespoons olive oil
1 tablespoon tomato paste
2/3 cup packed dark brown sugar
1/2 cup cider vinegar
1/2 teaspoon salt

I guess if you used four cups of it on your fries that would be a lot of sugar, but compared to many things that people eat, it's really not that sweet at all.
posted by Stagger Lee at 10:43 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

I freely admit that I know little about children, or French school food. Even if it's as lovely as silence makes it sound, I'm still not sure how I feel about this law. Kids are picky for a lot of reasons, not all of which even involve the food. It's certainly been mentioned here how feeding people food they don't like and have no control over greatly decreases enjoyment of life.

"I cooked us a STEAK, and you're going to ruin it with catsup?! Who taught you that? WHERE DID YOU LEARN THAT?!"

My dad followed that up with a sarcastic, "If it tastes so much better, why don't you just eat the ketchup then, and leave the steak?!?" Which I proceeded to do. I must have been like 5 and I can still remember the deathly silence in the kitchen and the way the ketchup went right through the tines of my fork.

So I suppose if I was a kid in France now, I would just go hungry a lot, because at least that way I would get to make a decision.
posted by heatvision at 10:43 AM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

Most are simply applauding the actual, quite sensible policy of not making condiments (ketchup included) freely available

Merely characterizing something as "quite sensible" doesn't really constitute rhetoric. You'd also need to use bold, underlined HTML.

Seriously, though. Most of y'all MetaFilter types support the "free availability" of condoms and needles. This conversation is about ketchup.
posted by red clover at 10:45 AM on October 12, 2011

"This is how we end up with revolting practices like dipping pizza into ranch dressing"

"Please tell me that this is some horrible sick fantasy that you read in a Clive Barker novel or something. I am not sure I can bear the thought of it being real...."

"Forget Pizza, as long as I'm still allowed to put ranch dressing on my rice - I'm good. "

My best friend is a chef. He calls ranch dressing "NASCAR sauce"
posted by brand-gnu at 10:47 AM on October 12, 2011 [15 favorites]

Ketchup? Nay, gravy and cheese curds, my friends. Gravy and cheese curds.
posted by emeiji at 10:47 AM on October 12, 2011 [9 favorites]

Most of y'all MetaFilter types support the "free availability" of condoms and needles.

With every meal?
posted by Skeptic at 10:48 AM on October 12, 2011 [7 favorites]

It's certainly been mentioned here how feeding people food they don't like and have no control over greatly decreases enjoyment of life.


Since when do kids get to eat whatever they want?
posted by Stagger Lee at 10:52 AM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

What's wrong with educating children? Or rather, why should't we teach them to eat, just as we teach them other life-improving skills. Isn't sports required in the US? Isn't reading and calculus?
posted by mumimor at 10:52 AM on October 12, 2011

infinitywaltz: "New High-Viscosity Mayonnaise to Aid in American Swallowing."

Damnit, why do I need to hover over these links to be 100% positive that it's an Onion piece...
posted by schmod at 10:55 AM on October 12, 2011

My dad followed that up with a sarcastic, "If it tastes so much better, why don't you just eat the ketchup then, and leave the steak?!?"

The funny thing is that I liked steak; I really did read about someone putting catsup on it in a book and thought, "Well, that's a novel idea! Perhaps I'll try that!"
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:56 AM on October 12, 2011

How about if we all calm down a bit. I guess it's the articles' fault really, they should stop flinging around words like "banned" and "prohibition." Neither accurately represents what's going on here.

French schools are restricting a food option in PRIMARY SCHOOLS. PRIMARY SCHOOLS. There are already no doubt countless restrictions on what they can serve there. Being somewhat discerning about when condiments are available to students in primary school cafeterias is not the return of the third reich.

I know that reality is much less exciting than what we've recreated here, but thankfully we're still a long way from a grim future when French voices shout outside your darkened window and jackbooted stormtroopers kick in your door and force you at gunpoint to clean out your libertarian fridge.
posted by Stagger Lee at 10:57 AM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

The funny thing is that I liked steak; I really did read about someone putting catsup on it in a book and thought, "Well, that's a novel idea! Perhaps I'll try that!"

So the problem here wasn't ketchup per se, it was book learnin'.
posted by mazola at 10:57 AM on October 12, 2011 [10 favorites]

We get to make so many damn decisions we barely notice we don't actually have choices.

Seriously, though. Most of y'all MetaFilter types support the "free availability" of condoms and needles. This conversation is about ketchup.

This conversation is also not about people being able to buy ketchup or not. It's about whether or not french schools should be allowed to control their own menus.

So what, now, if suddenly popular opinion in America shifts, and suddenly everybody considers it common sense to serve Red Bull with every meal. Meanwhile, little known to most people, the Red Bull marketeers have slowly but surely built up an astonishingly large body of credible-seeming but ultimately industry-funded fluff research to support their claims about Red Bull's being no more harmful than ketchup, and possibly even having some vaguely positive health benefits.

The net effect is a new common-sense, conventional popular belief that it's perfectly reasonable and sensible to offer Red Bull with every meal. So should future French school officials be obligated to offer Red Bull with every lunch now, too?

Also, most US ketchup is basically just a delivery mechanism for high-fructose corn syrup. I imagine French ketchup is better for you anyway.

But this has all the earmarkings of Grar! fodder for Americans. Ketchup is practically a code word for "America!" and I doubt that fact has been lost on savvy cultural warriors like Murdoch's got in his shop. Not sure why they're so fond of getting Americans so riled up against the French, though--maybe they're using France as a proxy for "Socialism" or something?
posted by saulgoodman at 11:03 AM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

THERE ARE EGGS IN CHOCOLATE CAKE. AND MILK!

Really? Oh! Well, in that case, by all means - let them eat cake!
posted by nickmark at 11:06 AM on October 12, 2011

In India they use mustard as well. I've seen my cousins do this on many occasions.

Oh, I'll put mustard on anything. Also: bitters. I put it on ice cream.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:06 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

All this being said, I'd like to admit to a sin: I fucking love Heinz 57 sauce.
posted by clvrmnky at 11:06 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

> Really? Oh! Well, in that case, by all means - let them eat cake!

Chocolate cake reference.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 11:07 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Being somewhat discerning

Again, merely invoking an adverb-adjective combo ("quite sensible," "somewhat discerning") does not constitute rhetoric, or persuade. Nor does silly hyperbole about jackbooted stormtroopers and the Third Reich. (Personally I don't find the Holocaust all that funny, but whatever.)

So what, now, if suddenly popular opinion in America shifts, and suddenly everybody considers it common sense to serve Red Bull with every meal.

And what if everybody starts dropping off their kids at school in helicopters? Will every school need to build helipads? With my tax dollars?!
posted by red clover at 11:09 AM on October 12, 2011

Alright I confess. I'm just bitter because my own personal favorite condiment is getting snubbed here.

Why won't they let my son choose to drown his cardboard-y lunchroom pizza with Worcestershire Sauce in the US? Damn authoritarian activist liberal media, and death panels, U guess.

Forget ketchup: Give me Worcestershire Sauce or give me death!
posted by saulgoodman at 11:14 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

(Personally I don't find the Holocaust all that funny, but whatever.)

who's talking about the fucking Holocaust?
posted by Hoopo at 11:20 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

good idea overall to try to educate kids' palates

You've never had kids, have you ?

No, but I was one once. And plenty of my friends have them. And I've been around plenty of others in a fairly large number of different countries and cultures. And I'm an uncle multiple times over. So I've seen enough to know the idea that "children will simply decide to eat nothing but chicken fingers smothered in ketchup and there's nothing anyone can do about it" is demonstrably nonsense.
posted by slkinsey at 11:25 AM on October 12, 2011 [13 favorites]

I like ranch dressing. I only like ketchup on egg sandwiches. I think that telling people (even kids) what they can eat is fucking obnoxious and futile.
posted by jonmc at 11:27 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Brilliant! I love this!
posted by agregoli at 11:30 AM on October 12, 2011

So what, now, if suddenly popular opinion in America shifts, and suddenly everybody considers it common sense to serve Red Bull with every meal. Meanwhile, little known to most people, the Red Bull marketeers have slowly but surely built up an astonishingly large body of credible-seeming but ultimately industry-funded fluff research to support their claims about Red Bull's being no more harmful than ketchup, and possibly even having some vaguely positive health benefits.

It's got electrolytes! It's what plants crave!

I don't like ranch dressing or ketchup. But I do like Cool Ranch Doritos. I am a man of many contradictions.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:35 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Horselover Phattie: " Chocolate cake reference."

Suddenly, I feel old.
posted by zarq at 11:37 AM on October 12, 2011

@red clover

I honestly have no idea what your point is here.
What do adverb-adjective combos have to do with menu options at primary schools?
posted by Stagger Lee at 11:45 AM on October 12, 2011

Stagger Lee, it pretty obviously has to do with your poor rhetorical technique in constructing an argument about those menu options that failed to invoke condoms and clean needles and accusations that people are having a laugh about the Holocaust. It's a conversation about ketchup, silly!
posted by Hoopo at 11:52 AM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

I don't like ranch dressing or ketchup. But I do like Cool Ranch Doritos. I am a man of many contradictions.

I don't like onions but I like Sour Cream & Onion chips. It's a weird world.
posted by jonmc at 11:55 AM on October 12, 2011

I think that telling people (even kids) what they can eat is fucking obnoxious and futile.

From your vehemence, is it presumptuous to ask if you were one of those pathologically-picky kids who were genuinely traumatized by food? That's fair enough if so.

But most kids aren't like that, and as an adult, I reserve the right to make all sorts of decisions for the benefit of teh children, even if they don't always like it.
posted by amorphatist at 12:01 PM on October 12, 2011

I'm not at all picky, but when you've been told for the 10,000th time to "just try" something you know you hate, it gets really old. That was my experience a lot of times as a kid and it has left me pretty skeptical of people who want to decide what kids are allowed to put on food in the name of expanding their horizons.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:13 PM on October 12, 2011

Ketchup is loaded with sugar.

I need to remember to point this out to people. Whenever I tell people that I don't like Ketchup because it's too sweet, they look at me like I have lost my mind.

But it *is* too sweet.
posted by aclevername at 12:16 PM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

I thought I really liked ketchup but it turns out I just really like vinegar.
posted by The Whelk at 12:25 PM on October 12, 2011 [7 favorites]

When I was a kid, I would dip my chocolate brownie into the tomato sauce gravy left over from the meat loaf in the Swanson's tv dinner.
posted by crunchland at 12:35 PM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

About pickiness: these kids are clearly offered several choices. They don't have to eat liver or tongue.
posted by mumimor at 12:41 PM on October 12, 2011

I like ranch dressing. I only like ketchup on egg sandwiches. I think that telling people (even kids) what they can eat is fucking obnoxious and futile.

God I want you to have children. Lots of them.

No, on second thought, I absolutely don't.

But if you ever do, you'll learn very quickly that they don't really give you that option as a parent--especially when they're primary school age.

It's funny. I think people in the US have got some serious identity baggage they bring to just about every issue these days. The idea that even the tiniest consumer whims or preferences are as sacred and inviolable as basic civil rights is, I suspect, a unique feature of the contemporary American culture though.

I'm not at all picky, but when you've been told for the 10,000th time to "just try" something you know you hate, it gets really old.

You'd never know it from my stance in this thread, but to this day I refuse to eat most kinds of beans at least in part due to a bad childhood experience in which my dad tried to force me to eat them. (Incidentally, I also don't eat seafood because as a kid I realized being caught as a fish must be subjectively a lot like being abducted by aliens for food, which seemed like it must be a horrifying way to die.)

But all the same, don't confuse real freedom with having lots of choices. Traditionally, even a condemned man gets to choose exactly what ingredients go into making his final meal. But the important choice--when he gets to eat it--is always made for him.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:43 PM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

The way to get rid of ketchup on the dinner table is to introduce your kids to the concept of umami. It's the one taste that all kids love (and it does not go well with ketchup).
posted by KokuRyu at 12:44 PM on October 12, 2011

No more Great Satan Sauce on the ol' Freedom Fries, eh?
posted by mmrtnt at 12:48 PM on October 12, 2011

Not anymore.
posted by crunchland at 12:48 PM on October 12, 2011

KokuRyu, horribly enough, this map behind the umami link has a large bottle of ketchup over Nova Scotia to denote local "umami culture." Perhaps I don't know enough about Japanese food...
posted by skbw at 12:49 PM on October 12, 2011

Tomatoes have a large amount of naturally occurring glutamate–one of the largest amounts of any fruit, and so they pack an umami punch that nearly cannot be beaten.
posted by crunchland at 12:58 PM on October 12, 2011

When Heinz moved to ripe tomatoes and increased the percentage of tomato solids, he made ketchup, first and foremost, a potent source of umami.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:58 PM on October 12, 2011

From your vehemence, is it presumptuous to ask if you were one of those pathologically-picky kids who were genuinely traumatized by food?

I actually was one of those kids. I used to decline offers to hang out with friends when I was little if I wasn't going to be able to be home for dinner. I even hated a lot of supposedly child-friendly foods; I didn't like hamburgers, pizza or spaghetti (weirdly, I did enjoy vegetables and still do).

Then, some time around my early teens, it just...stopped. Foods that just looking at used to make me feel queasy were suddenly edible, if not necessarily appealing, and I even began to seek out "weird" foods. I'm still like that now, in fact; I love goat, sweetbreads, crickets, rabbit, most forms of wild game, raw octopus...and I still have no idea exactly what switch was thrown in my brain.

Although I suspect my grandfather introducing me to Thai food might have had something to do with it.
posted by infinitywaltz at 12:59 PM on October 12, 2011

This is it. Occupy France. Put ketchup production on a war footing.
posted by Splunge at 1:05 PM on October 12, 2011

You know who else occupied France?
posted by mccarty.tim at 1:37 PM on October 12, 2011 [4 favorites]

I'm much more appalled that schoolchildren aren't allowed to bring lunches from home to school.
posted by John Cohen at 1:41 PM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

> You know who else occupied France?

Caligula!
posted by Horselover Phattie at 1:41 PM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

My brother used to drown all his food in ketchup, which would annoy my dad to no end. After all, my dad would make us an awesome wine-marinated London broil & my brother would coat it in tomato syrup. Once my brother realized how much sugar was in the ketchup, he dialed it back and lost about 10 lbs.

At some point you have to switch over to real food and stop eating like a Ninja Turtle. I'm surprised by the number of adults that live on cheeseburger pizza and "chicken" nuggets.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 1:50 PM on October 12, 2011

Also, NOT having fries with everything? Sounds fantastic. And who the heck puts ketchup on stew?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 1:56 PM on October 12, 2011

People who like the taste of ketchup in stew.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 1:59 PM on October 12, 2011

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres!
posted by Comrade_robot at 2:00 PM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Okay, wait, I want to hear more about these French school meals. Five courses? Fresh fruit and vegetables? Is that for real? How can that be?! I honestly have a very difficult time wrapping my mind around the idea of a public school being counted on to serve palatable food at all, much less "veal or boeuf bourguignon." Please, tell me more.

Because when I hear "no ketchup," and I think of the bland, dry, overcooked, boring food that was all any school I went to ever served, "carefully limited condiments" just sounds cruel. Of course, the fact that apparently they only get fries once a week should have been my first clue that their food might not be the same as the standard American lunch fare.
posted by mandanza at 2:08 PM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

What if we call it Pittsburgh Tomato Coulis?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:13 PM on October 12, 2011

There is a much better practice in Buffalo. After dipping your wings in blue cheese and mixing the two sauces you then dip your pizza in it. This is the true cause of Buffalo's declining population: delicious heart attacks.

Well that, and with the higher body fat percentages, people tend to light up like the opening scene of Apocalypse Now when their house catches fire.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:21 PM on October 12, 2011

You know who else occupied France?

Jerry Lewis.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:26 PM on October 12, 2011

Chicago will stand with France.

We too know the pain of seeing a perfectly good food be ruined by that lowly condiment. Although we do tend to make exceptions for those under 12.
posted by borkencode at 2:36 PM on October 12, 2011 [2 favorites]

Most of y'all MetaFilter types support the "free availability" of condoms and needles.

in elementary school?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:37 PM on October 12, 2011

*the smell of the ortolan is tantalizing under the handkerchief and the american is about to start when he realizes something is missing*

"where's the ketchup?"
posted by pyramid termite at 2:43 PM on October 12, 2011 [4 favorites]

Wait, you mean pizza isn't supposed to come with dipping sauce? This Canadian is shocked.
posted by Yowser at 10:30 AM on October 12 [+] [!]

Americans need to learn about donair sauce, the only acceptable pizza dipping sauce.
posted by Space Coyote at 2:49 PM on October 12, 2011

Let me just go on the record here: I don't get the hype about dipping fries in Frosties from Wendy's. It's just sweet blandness. The fries cancel out the creaminess of the ice cream, and the sweetness cancels out the tiny bit of earthiness you can taste in Wendy's fries.

Also, while we are here, I don't think their new burgers are that great compared to the prior model.

mayo > ketchup > Frosty
posted by mccarty.tim at 3:00 PM on October 12, 2011

@mandanza: Because when I hear "no ketchup," and I think of the bland, dry, overcooked, boring food that was all any school I went to ever served

Just so. The chief problem with institutional food - and I doubt French institutional food is any different - is that it's dull and completely lacking in umami. It's also probably the case with the cooking of most people who complain about others wanting ketchup with their precious creations; if someone needs ketchup with stew, the chances are that the stew doesn't have enough stock and/or hasn't been cooked long enough to release umami from the meat.
posted by raygirvan at 3:02 PM on October 12, 2011

fries in frostys has never been my thing. i'm a fan of dipping potato chips (crisps) in chocolate pudding. i also like that at some chocolate shops, you can get chocolate covered chips. mmm that's good eatin.
posted by rude.boy at 3:04 PM on October 12, 2011

@mandaza, four courses has been the standard everywhere I've studied (or five since the main dish is made of two things). One entrée (choose from a few shelves; my translation abilities are limited here, but for example cucumber salad, avocado with a few shrimps, a mini-pizza); one main dish composed of one vegetable (choose from three, typical example rice with ratatouille), meat or fish (choose from three again, eg salmon, beef stew, some sort of feuilleté), and some sauce coordinated with either the meat or the vegetables; cheese (typically brie or goat cheese) or yogurt; and dessert (slice of tarte, or cake, or fresh fruit). Plus a piece of bread, water, and condiments (salt, pepper, and, yes, vats of ketchup or mustard available in the back). I can vouch for silence's examples as well, though trout would be less common than strawberries.

To compare with my experience of US food: Sugar is much more rare outside of dessert, cafeteria food varies across the week, mustard doesn't contain vegetable oil, vinaigrette is olive oil and vinegar with no sugar, courses that need some kind of sauce already come with it.
posted by Tobu at 3:07 PM on October 12, 2011

No people need to learn that pizza does not come with dipping sauce. Seriously thus is like finding out y'all eat live kittens and capers.
posted by The Whelk at 3:08 PM on October 12, 2011 [1 favorite]

Traditionally, even a condemned man gets to choose exactly what ingredients go into making his final meal.

Not any more. Well, not in Texas anyway, but they probably kill more prisoners than any other US state.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:37 PM on October 12, 2011

Okay, wait, I want to hear more about these French school meals. Five courses? Fresh fruit and vegetables? Is that for real? How can that be?! I honestly have a very difficult time wrapping my mind around the idea of a public school being counted on to serve palatable food at all, much less "veal or boeuf bourguignon." Please, tell me more.

It's true, and it's amazing. Last Thursday, at the high school where I'm working, we had mushrooms in chives, tomato salad, broccoli salad, lettuce, and some kind of green bean thing to start; a choice between foie de veau and curried mussels for the main course, both accompanied by fried salsify; cheese (real cheese packaged into individual servings); an apple tart or a big waffle for dessert, and a choice between, I think, a banana or four plums. I think they're legally required to offer fresh fruit. All for under 3 euros. Plus to enter the cafeteria you enter your code into a machine that then reads your hand print, as if every single sweaty, adolescent, be-pimpled one of us was James Bond or something. There are actual chefs who take pride in what they do, and there's a brand new meal just about every day of the year. The food is normally good, and healthy. It's really different here.

Of course, the French are just as inclined to eat a ton of ludicrous pre-packaged crap as the rest of us, which I suppose is why measures like the ones we're discussing are being taken. As has been talked and talked about, McDonald's makes more money here than in any other country in the world apart from America. There are disgusting supermarket versions of half the lovely, delicate things you find in a boulangerie or patisserie, and people actually buy them. They sell pre-toasted toast in boxes - wtf. I'm happy the French government is stepping up to see about the nutritional and gustatory development of the children in its care. That's what they're supposed to do. Maybe it will even save them from some of the ugly, painful consequences so many of us have been so free to face.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 3:38 PM on October 12, 2011 [3 favorites]

Typical American Cafeteria Food : Menu Hotline for the Lunch Lady ... 510-351-7654
posted by crunchland at 3:42 PM on October 12, 2011

Meanwhile, in America: Whether you’re a dipper, a squeezer, or a health-minded ketchup lover, Heinz is giving everyone more ways to enjoy America’s Favorite Ketchup.(warning: press release)
posted by obscurator at 4:59 PM on October 12, 2011

I even hated a lot of supposedly child-friendly foods; I didn't like hamburgers, pizza or spaghetti (weirdly, I did enjoy vegetables and still do).

Actually my kid's like this. Loves his veg, does like (plain) pasta and regards tomatoes as some sort of ultimate evil: no pizza, no ketchup, no nothin'. No fried foods either. It's a bit of a hassle but one has to admit it's probably much healthier.
posted by emmet at 5:44 PM on October 12, 2011

The Straight Dope on ketchup as a vegetable.

tl;dr Democrats yelled enough that it was scrapped before it even happened. Also, evidently kids don't like to eat vegetables.

Also, defunct Japanese school lunch blog.
posted by Winnemac at 5:58 PM on October 12, 2011

I was angry as a kid when my dad wouldn't let me use ketchup on steak because it ruined the flavor. He frowned on it in general, and we didn't eat french fries much at all. In contrast, my mom ate ketchup on everything. My parents were divorced, custody agreement was with each parent part-time, so eating habits were not consistent. As an adult, I'm grateful for what my dad did, which was break me of my ketchup habit very young. To this day I don't enjoy it at all and never use it. It's cloyingly sweet in my opinion and dominates the flavor of any food to the point where all you taste is ketchup. No wonder my dad didn't allow it on steak! I don't eat fries often but when I do it's with salt and pepper alone, maybe mustard, but never ketchup.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:11 PM on October 12, 2011

has nobody linked this yet? i thought it was in an fpp here at some point, but can't find it. (i want to be a french school girl)
posted by miss patrish at 6:49 PM on October 12, 2011

I am too envious of French children having delicious lunches to think that they suffer from a ketchup deficit.

I don't like onions but I like Sour Cream & Onion chips. It's a weird world.

Me too! Also Funyuns, though they're so removed from actual onions that's hardly surprising.
posted by emjaybee at 6:56 PM on October 12, 2011

X-post from the sriracha thread, because KETCHUP, that's why.

Japanese comedy group DownTown (minus Hamada but plus Heipo), from their show Gaki no Tsukai, do their Kiki batsu (punishment) game with ketchup.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 7:26 PM on October 12, 2011

I hate ketchup, so I think this is pretty awesome.
posted by desuetude at 9:54 PM on October 12, 2011

It is just not true that children won't eat vegetables. It's a matter of education. One does not ask a two year old what he wants, that makes no sense. Those are fights you need to take, like numerous other things.
posted by mumimor at 11:20 PM on October 12, 2011

I think they'd be better off framing it as a health problem.

In the US, they would, because Americans are neo-puritan weirdos
posted by atrazine at 5:49 AM on October 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

Ketchup. Catsup.

Ketchup. Catsup.

Are you here to solve my Catsup problem?
posted by cereselle at 7:07 AM on October 13, 2011

It is just not true that children won't eat vegetables. It's a matter of education. One does not ask a two year old what he wants, that makes no sense. Those are fights you need to take, like numerous other things.

Me: Whad'ya guys what for lunch? Hot Dog?

My two year old twin girls: BEETS! BEETS!

Just saying.
posted by werkzeuger at 8:44 AM on October 13, 2011 [1 favorite]

Oh please, if Uncle Steve were still here to tell you how closed meal systems worked far more optimally without unauthorized condiments, half y'all would be swearing up and down how disgusting and sloppy ketchup is, and how your one allocation of iCondiment per meal is the future of food.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 9:54 AM on October 13, 2011

Hey, werkzeuger, mine both love broccoli - but I felt it would be too smug a thing to write. and anyway, I believe it's because I gave them mashed potatoes and brocolli with tons of butter when they were learning to eat.

On the side - I love ketchup, and other condiments. And I don't think they carry any health risk in themselves. But I do think condiments contribute to unhealthy habits when they are used to cover over the blandness of unhealthy food.
posted by mumimor at 1:12 PM on October 13, 2011