Sex-positivity is a major focus of feminist efforts.—prefparaWell, it's a major focus of the efforts of some feminists.
"In a patriarchy, the cornerstone of which is a paradigm of male dominance and female submission, women do not enjoy the same degree of personal sovereignty that men do. This oppressed condition obtains a priori to all other conditions, and nullifies any presumption of fully human status on the part of women. A woman, therefore, cannot freely “consent,” because her will is obviated by her status as a subhuman."I think it's pretty safe to say that a lot of people will find this passage extremely problematic.
"So they imagine that radical feminists hate them for wearing lipstick, or that we want them to castrate their husbands in their sleep, or that we want to turn them into dykes, or that we aspire to outlaw sex. And that all these things that they imagine we are makes us paternalistic Nazi sex cops who view all women as “brainwashed.” They all seem to be saying,”I don’t know if patriarchy even exists, but if it does, it doesn’t affect me, so fuck you.”I feel pretty comfortable characterizing this as disingenuous strawman burning. Holly was responding to what seemed to be pretty reasonable readings of something Twisty said, and at no point does Twisty address those readings. If Holly has misunderstood Twisty, she never says how. She never says "no, what I meant with that quote is this." She simply accuses Holly of saying a bunch of things that we can see clearly Holly did not say.
"I dunno, you market your blog as being the musings of a totally horny slut and here are my blowjob and strap-on tips, and the posts about rape--which really are quite good--are very likely to get subsumed."Doesn't it strike you as kind of fucked up that this is true (to whatever degree it is)?
"Making out at a frat party because a bunch of hooting 19-year-old boys are egging you on isn't submitting to pressures to exploit female sexuality for the benefit of the male gaze. It's just like, being totally free and awesome and comfortable with sex and stuff! It's feminist! By the way, could you guys like, turn this way so I can take a picture and send it to my buddies back home?"I dunno.
A final note: Of many the specious arguments against the Twistifesto, there is one which is most commonly posed by a certain species of “sex-positive” feminist. These well-meaning but misguided gals complain that the eradicate-prostitution position is patronizing because it presumes that women are “incapable,” as Caitlain puts it, of making decisions pertaining to the disposition of our own body parts. I am happy to report that the eradicate-prostitution position does nothing of the sort. No sane radical feminist could possibly support the assertion that women are “incapable” of making decisions; we are merely prevented by an oppressive social order from exercising our capability to its fullest extent.Holly draws some broad general strokes around what she perceives to be radfem arguments in her response; and Twisty draws some broad general strokes around what she perceives to be "funfem" arguments in *her* response. I mean, I could easily turn what you said around into "Holly simply accuses Twisty of saying a bunch of things that we can see clearly Twisty did not say"; but I don't think they were actually directly talking to or addressing each other there, so I don't see a problem with how either of them were writing about it.
I suspect that the rampant willingness among young feminists to deny this grim truth stems from the wholly untenable position into which it thrusts’em. They’re young, they’re fit, they wanna boink; who can blame them if they just aren’t ready to accept that nothing short of an exhaustive, uncompromising overthrow of the social order will put them in complete control of their own selves?
No sane radical feminist could possibly support the assertion that women are “incapable” of making decisions; we are merely prevented by an oppressive social order from exercising our capability to its fullest extent.I don't know what she recommends to straight women who want to have sex. I don't think she actually has recommendations for straight women who want to have sex. I think that's something we have to figure out ourselves. Like I said above, the intersection of sex and feminism just isn't that easy. There's a lot of gray areas. There's a lot of balancing. There's a lot of analyzing and thinking, and most people just want to fuck. I can dig it.
I think sex is massively overrated and it's really just another damn hobby.uhh. hmm.
Gay people usually aren't attracted to each-and-every member of their own sex
"I don't know what she recommends to straight women who want to have sex. I don't think she actually has recommendations for straight women who want to have sex. I think that's something we have to figure out ourselves. Like I said above, the intersection of sex and feminism just isn't that easy. There's a lot of gray areas."I don't think I can really let Twisty off with this passage. Consent is one of the very few things that I treat as binary. You seem to be saying that Twisty says it is not binary, that there's a continuum of consent. Which brings me back to asking what that means? If you're going to say "women in the patriarchy can not give full consent," then, ok, you'll have to explain that. And again I'm forced to ask if this characterizes all hetero sex as rape? And if not, then ... what's going on? What does it mean to say a person consents, but not fully?
"There's a lot of analyzing and thinking, and most people just want to fuck. I can dig it."It seems like she's done a lot of analyzing and thinking. And also wants to fuck. Is this impossible, under your view? If it's not impossible, do you think she's still failed to do so? Where do you see her as having deficits in her analysis and thought?
"Your argument here is exactly what I mean when I say twisted. Someone brings up "Well, here are ways that this may become exploitative" and the response is "How dare you hate women who like sex you filthy sex-hater?!""That's really unfair. :/ That is not what I said or did at all. My question was not rhetorical. I didn't ask it trying to imply that I already knew the answer. I asked it honestly and forthrightly.
"Uh, that was not meant as a specific reference to her. That was meant as a general example of how society twists "sexy feminism" around to justify objectification of women.That was my point. I understood what it was a general example for, but my question is why you're making that general example in a discussion about a certain blog? You're not specifically referencing her, so... what are you doing? If she says some legit stuff and society twists that around, isn't that society's fault and problem? Why should she stop what she's doing because other people fuck it up?
"Horny slut" is not used as an insult. It's traditionally used as a form of appreciation for a woman who is viewed as little more than a series of holes to be offered up to a man. When a woman calls herself a "horny slut", she is less likely to bring up the "Opportunity for dialogue" thought process and more likely to bring up the "AWWW YEAH I knew the women that I see in porn movies exist in real life here is a chick who is going to give me her holes!" train. And sure, her point is "I can like sex AND be intelligent" but you start off with the "horny slut" and the second part just doesn't get through.Thanks Shroe, this really articulates a potential pitfall with reclaiming "slut." This is probably discussed much better elsewhere, but I feel like this problem is analogous to the problem with terminology used to subjugate women in general, namely that there are not analogous terms for men, or other groups. The C word is just so much more violent, reductive and specific than fag, nigger, etc, and there really is no male equivalent. Similarly, slut has such a specific role in shame and manipulation, and since it already has semi-positive connotations when applied to men there again is no male equivalent.
I agree that it's tough to see something titled "how to oggle ladies" on a feminist blog, but I think that a pretty decent argument can be made for it. The easiest way for me to do this is to look at it from the other perspective, in saying that I really just can't not be conscious of an attractive man. I've never been as affected by it as my boyfriend (I still treasure the memory of the time he walked into a pillar in a store because he was staring at me), but like. Dudes be hot, you know?
She actually started as a sex blogger and the feminism is secondary but growing in importance . . . Her being a feminist isn't based on her being poly and kinky
I keep imagining an alternate version of this thread where people could come out and chat merrily about their experiences and support each other and be happy and celebratory. I guess we aren't ready yet.Yeah, I also feel like things got sidetracked by the whole "feminism vs slut" debate. I wish comments would focus more on the particular intertwining of being "thoughtful and feminism aware" and "totally into BSDM" that is more unique to Pervocracy. There's a lot of room to discuss ideas like "as a girl, sub-roleplay is fun but you sure do meet a lot of assholes when you're looking for a male-dom" or "how do I reconcile loving porn with the nigh-on-impossibility of completely avoiding porn that was likely produced in exploitative conditions" that kinky women I know run up against.
in a patriarchy, the cornerstone of which is a paradigm of male dominance and female submission, women do not enjoy the same degree of personal sovereignty that men do. This oppressed condition obtains a priori to all other conditions, and nullifies any presumption of fully human status on the part of women.Seriously, that kind of starting position absolutely shuts down any meaningful discussion about women that could possibly have occurred. Stuff like that makes it harder for women like me to teach our sons, who are too young to know how bad it once was for women in this country, about why feminism is so important here, not just in places where they wear burqas and are forced into marriages when they're 13. That radical stance is what makes their friends equate all feminism to "hating men".
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posted by GIFtheory at 10:07 PM on October 12, 2011