October 3, 2001

5:17 AM

Greyhound suspends service.Rinearson said when she refused to give up her seat, "He just went up to the bus driver and like slit his throat. And the bus driver turned the wheel and the bus tipped over." Normally, just another whack-job ending his days. But the annoying thing was listening to the radio this morning on the way to work and all they could keep wondering about aloud was what the guy's nationality was. What, is the first reaction of normal people when they see a little spark or ember to immediately rush over and fan it into raging flames? Are people no longer able to think critically? Is your response to the situation going to be different if the nationality answer is 'American' vs. 'Saudi'? What does this say about you?
posted by warhol (51 comments total)

Given the events of three weeks ago it's only "natural" to wonder of the nationality of the attacker. "Natural" in the sense of socially conditioned.

How could you not hear this news story and not wonder if it is somehow linked to terrorism? I don't find that racist at all.
posted by Qubit at 5:26 AM on October 3, 2001

Though we should avoid using "Middle Eastern" as shorthand for terrorist, I can't blame people for asking about the attacker's nationality or ethnicity. It's a relevant detail when you're the target of a jihad.
posted by rcade at 5:36 AM on October 3, 2001

So our immediate response whenever informed there's been a violent crime should be "Oh those pesky Arabs"? Why should a criminal's ethnicity ever be important? Can't we use terrorist as a shorthand for terrorist?
posted by UnReality at 5:41 AM on October 3, 2001

Nice to know that we can now take out dislike off blacks and orientals and focus them elsewhere---for a time.
posted by Postroad at 5:46 AM on October 3, 2001

Why should a criminal's ethnicity ever be important?

It shouldn't. But when a group of crazed zealots of a specific ethnicity hates you so much they want to kill your children at their playgrounds, it would be extremely foolish to be color-blind of suspicious activity. If a Saudi national behaves oddly at a flight school in Florida this week, should his ethnicity be irrelevant?
posted by rcade at 5:57 AM on October 3, 2001

UnReality:

We are the avowed terror target of a group of people who are almost without exception of Middle Eastern or South Asian origin. Therefore it strikes me as being very topical as to the ethnicity of the attacker. If it's just some random nut-ball, that's one thing -- but if the man was, say, an Egyptian national, that's quite another thing altogether.

We dare not become blindly racist, that's true. But blind racism and simple blindness are not the same thing.
posted by mrmanley at 6:05 AM on October 3, 2001

One thing I notice on my local news channel is that whenever there is a crime - for example someone being attacked - they ALWAYS mention that the attack was carried out by a black man/woman/group if it was, but if it was by white people, they don't mention the ethnicity. Does anyone else notice similar reporting where they live? (I'm in the UK)
posted by LauraVW at 6:09 AM on October 3, 2001

barbarism has no ethnicity.
posted by incubus at 6:12 AM on October 3, 2001

We are the avowed terror target of a group of people who are almost without exception of Middle Eastern or South Asian origin. Therefore it strikes me as being very topical as to the ethnicity of the attacker.

Ah, so I should assume that anyone who looks like a bad guy probably *is* a bad guy. We're the avowed target of a band of a few thousand people at best and there are some 5 *billion* people in the world. The odds are *incredibly* minute that the arab person on the subway next to me is ready to kill my children on the playground.

The odds are *much* better that the american (what does an american look like - are you thinking 'of northern european descent' when you say 'American'? That's a pretty big disservice to many immigrants) on the subway next to me is carrying a weapon and is willing to kill me for the contents of my wallet. How many people die of a violent crime in the US versus being killed by terrorist acts? Over the last year? Over the last decade? How about highway safety?

All I'm saying is that we're on a slippery slope of sensationalist stereotyping and people are too eager to run on down that hill.

What if the guy on the bus *is/was* an American but of middle eastern descent? Is that different than if he was an American of Irish descent? If you're asking a question about nationality, as if it matters in this incident, you should question why.
posted by warhol at 6:26 AM on October 3, 2001

LauraVW, I used to find that to be the case, but not so much in the last 10 years or so. (I'm in North Carolina, USA).

Ah, so I should assume that anyone who looks like a bad guy probably *is* a bad guy. We're the avowed target of a band of a few thousand people at best and there are some 5 *billion* people in the world. The odds are *incredibly* minute that the arab person on the subway next to me is ready to kill my children on the playground.

warhol you are completely missing the point. No one here has advocated assuming arabs are 'bad guys'. But if, in the midst of a proclaimed Holy War, someone kills 100 children on a playground, it's hardly racist for us to wonder whether or not it was a random crime, or a continuation of the terrorism which commenced on September 11.

barbarism has no ethnicity.

Um, ok. Nice catchphrase - but right now, like it or not, Terrorism does. In America anyway.
posted by glenwood at 6:32 AM on October 3, 2001

We are the avowed terror target of a group of people who are almost without exception of Middle Eastern or South Asian origin. Therefore it strikes me as being very topical as to the ethnicity of the attacker.

Ah, so I should assume that anyone who looks like a bad guy probably *is* a bad guy. We're the avowed target of a band of a few thousand people at best and there are some 5 *billion* people in the world. The odds are *incredibly* minute that the arab person on the subway next to me is ready to kill my children on the playground.

The odds are *much* better that the american (what does an american look like - are you thinking 'of northern european descent' when you say 'American'? That's a pretty big disservice to many immigrants) on the subway next to me is carrying a weapon and is willing to kill me for the contents of my wallet. How many people die of a violent crime in the US versus being killed by terrorist acts? Over the last year? Over the last decade? How about highway safety?

All I'm saying is that we're on a slippery slope of sensationalist stereotyping and people are too eager to run on down that hill.

What if the guy on the bus *is/was* an American but of middle eastern descent? Is that different than if he was an American of Irish descent? If you're asking a question about nationality, as if it matters in this incident, you should question why.
posted by warhol at 6:33 AM on October 3, 2001

As soon as dozens of fanatical Hungarian terrorists start crashing planes into skyscrapers, I'll start being wary of Hungarians.

Does it mean we should round up all those of MiddleEastern decent? No. Should we be on a heightened sense of alert and be wary? You becha.

Time to get away from this whiny worrying about every perceived racist slight.
posted by darren at 6:36 AM on October 3, 2001

It has been three weeks after an incident like September 11th, as Americans were the target of a jihad. I don't believe that wondering aloud what the guy's nationality was exactly fanning the flame. Was this guy an American? Maybe. Then again, so was T. Mcveigh and Albert Fish.

But to describe an investigation that digs around an origin-less killer as "color-blind" is not accurate. I'm not saying that anything like that is not irrelevant, but should reporters even bother with a story when eyewitness accounts give such little details as "he was anxious" or "he just strolled up to the front and clipped the guy"? Seems like the reporting is at fault, and I don't think Americans are in the position right now to hear about a killing without justly wondering whether Terrorism: Episode 2 was scheduled.
posted by Quixoticlife at 6:38 AM on October 3, 2001

warhol:

First -- I agree that racism and stereotyping are evil. Okay? I 'm not saying otherwise. But I think you're being rather foolish when you say that, in essence, ethnicity doesn't factor into violence. It does, and in all kinds of complicated ways.

Take serial killers -- they are overwhelmingly white, male, and of high intelligence. Therefore I am perfectly justified in saying that, a priori, a serial killer is probably a white male with sexual power-trip issues. Likewise, if someone tells me there was a drive-by shooting in South Central L.A., I can assume a priori that both the victims and the perpetrators were black (the chances of my being wrong are statistically very small). The truth of the matter is that in many cases, race and ethnicity play a huge role in how, why, and where violence is conducted.

So if we find out that the perpetrator was a white lowlife from Alabama, we can't say much beyond that. Likewise of the perpetrator is black or hispanic. But if the perpetrator is of Arabic or South Asian extraction, or is a Muslim, we would be foolish indeed to ignore the possibility of terrorism. The possibility is only magnified if said person is a foreign national of a Middle Eastern or South Asian country. We are compelled to investigate -- we dare not do otherwise.

I share your concerns about this kind of thing, warhol. What can be said of groups of people does not necessarily hold for the individual, and this is the tragedy: individual people the world over are overwhelmingly "good people". We must protect ourselves, but I hope and pray not at the expense of our plurality and our respect for other people.
posted by mrmanley at 6:42 AM on October 3, 2001

It's not a matter of assuming that arabs are "bad guys." It's a matter of wondering if this specific bad guy was part of the group of arabs that mean us harm.

Of course, anyone that's ever ridden on a Greyhound realizes that he was probably under the influence of his favorite recreational drug, rather than part of an international conspiracy.
posted by Jart at 6:45 AM on October 3, 2001

Of course, anyone that's ever ridden on a Greyhound realizes that he was probably under the influence of his favorite recreational drug, rather than part of an international conspiracy.

Or just out of jail, since one thing prisoners get given when they leave is a Greyhound pass.

The "children in their playgrounds" stuff is just a bit histrionic, yes? Fine if you want to get worked up into a frenzy, but isn't that what the other side is meant to do?
posted by holgate at 7:06 AM on October 3, 2001

Of course, anyone that's ever ridden on a Greyhound realizes that he was probably under the influence of his favorite recreational drug, rather than part of an international conspiracy.

Or just out of jail, since one thing prisoners get given when they leave is a Greyhound pass.

The "children in their playgrounds" stuff is just a bit histrionic, yes? Fine if you want to get worked up into a frenzy, but isn't that what the other side is meant to do?
posted by holgate at 7:06 AM on October 3, 2001

I think when its post-crime, we know the guy slit the driver's throat so there's, its okay to look at the guy's ethnicity when you consider the context of the entire country right now, post-9/11, and the strangeness of the event. If they've decided to attack buses now, I'd like to know.

There's a difference between that and pre-crime, which is really where most of the fears noted above about ethnic profiling are arising.

As has been stated, we are being targeted by whacked-out zealots of Middle Eastern decent. Does that mean you round up all people that fit that description? No, of course not. Does it mean we pay a little more attention when a nutjob slits a driver's throat if he happens to fit that description? You bet we should. they're not one in the same, people.
posted by srw12 at 7:08 AM on October 3, 2001

Or just out of jail, since one thing prisoners get given when they leave is a Greyhound pass.

I wondered why all the prisoners all travel Greyhound: I was on a Greyhound travelling through California once, and was puzzled why, at one stop, the bus picked up a dozen newly-released prisoners, all with their matching clothes and their brown paper bags of possessions. Now it all makes sense, finally!
posted by LauraVW at 7:10 AM on October 3, 2001

It's not that we wonder aloud if this incident is connected to the attack of September 11. That's only natural, I agree, in the wake of such violence. But when we start to think that a criminal's ethnicity alone can prove the connection, when we start to equate violence with a specific ethnic group, what have we done but perpetuate a stereotype and insult the vast majority of that ethnic group who have not acted in violence? We shouldn't hear about a violent crime in the inner city and think, "oh, that's black people for you". Likewise, if this man on the Greyhound bus was of Middle Eastern descent, what does that prove? That he's a terrorist? Shouldn't we rely on facts to make decisions?
posted by UnReality at 7:15 AM on October 3, 2001

The "children in their playgrounds" stuff is just a bit histrionic, yes?

It's the truth.

At the Haqquania madrassa, a student who says he has just attended one of bin Laden's training camps pulls out a training manual, called the "encyclopedia," which U.S. officials say is used at the camps in Afghanistan. "Now listen, American, and listen well," says Hussain Zaeef, 21. He reads from Page 12 of the manual: " 'Bomb their embassies and vital economic centers.' That's what I will do to you and your country. I will get your children. I will get their playgrounds. I will get their schools, too. I will get all of you."

Source.
posted by rcade at 7:24 AM on October 3, 2001

sorry about the double post - walked away from the browser, after hitting the back button and thought the post hadn't been finalized.
posted by warhol at 7:28 AM on October 3, 2001

Time to get away from this whiny worrying about every perceived racist slight.

Time to get away from this whiny worrying about every perceived terrorist attack.

That's the fundamental point here. If you've begun to dramatically change your life and perceptions as a result of the attacks, then the attacks were successful in their goals in regards to the general purpose of terrorism.

Terrorism is nothing more than somebody getting into an argument and yelling and screaming and pounding their fist on the table instead of trying to be rational.
posted by warhol at 7:32 AM on October 3, 2001

According to the nytimes, the guy had a Croation ID card.
posted by Loudmax at 7:38 AM on October 3, 2001

Isn't Bin Laden's posse supposed to be a well financed, well organized group of professional killers? What self-respecting terrorist would be caught dead (pardon the pun) on a Greyhound?

Not to be flip, but we know from 9/11 that these guys have a certain sense of showmanship. The Pentagon? WTC? Pure showbiz, baby. The only language Americans as a whole understand. The spectacular, brutal, language of the action film. So don't you think it would undercut the hell out of their point to turn around and jack up a lousy Greyhound? How many virgins do you think a guy would be rewarded with for that lame stunt?

I vote for the "Lone Nutcase" theory.
posted by Optamystic at 7:48 AM on October 3, 2001

Terrorism is nothing more than somebody ... pounding their fist on the table

What message are you trying to convey with this idiocy?

Terrorism is, to cite just one real life recent example, a group of middle-aged ladies chatting while on a cigarette break, suddenly showered with flaming debris and running across the WTC plaza totally enwrapped in flames, screaming and crying as they burn to death.
posted by quercus at 7:56 AM on October 3, 2001

Seeing how Croatia has a large Muslim population, my first reaction was that this could possibly be a new and related terrorist attack, but according to CNN that's probably not the case: Federal source: Fatal bus crash not terrorism
posted by dagny at 7:57 AM on October 3, 2001

thanks for your link rcade. wow one 21 year old in pakistan threatens to bomb children in the playground.
has not this 'jihad' been in effect for some time?
maybe it is it's recent arrival in some peoples awareness is the reason why they are primed to leap to cry 'see, jihad in action'.
posted by asok at 7:59 AM on October 3, 2001

Categories.

The 9/11 attackers were all human.
They were all male.
They all had dark skin.
They were all Arab.
They were all Islamic.
They were all terrorists.

People need some way to make a clear delineation between maybe-terrorist and definitely-not-terrorist. Unfortunately, we can't really spot terrorists in a crowd. Nor can one tell if a person is Islamic by staring at them. So people decide that non-Arabs are not terrorists and Arabs possibly are. People have trouble figuring that out, too, so they go for the next up the line, and just go by skin-color. Sure, the margin of error is pretty wide, but it's the best they can do!

Yes, I think it sucks.
posted by whatnotever at 8:04 AM on October 3, 2001

It's the truth.

We've had the terrorist manual thread elsewhere, but recent history suggests that American children are far more likely to be killed by their parents, or by their fellow pupils, than the products of the Pakistan madrassas. Now that's an unpalatable truth. Or was Osama bin Laden the shadowy presence behind Columbine as well?

(And before you ask: no, I don't have kids. But I know histrionics. And having been within 50 yards of a bomb planted by the IRA, I know about terrorism.)
posted by holgate at 8:08 AM on October 3, 2001

the fact remains its the truth
posted by quercus at 8:10 AM on October 3, 2001

I'm not sure what's freaking me out more: The idea of a brutal murder resulting in additional deaths in a bus crash, or a major transportation resource being shut down. I'm astonished that, as much Wed surfing as I do, MF is the first place I saw mention of it.

Even spookier, here in Columbia, SC we had an incident the other day involving an apparent attempt to break into a water tower in a neighborhood near downtown. No tampering with the tank's contents was found when the water was tested (thank God) but it's at least a very curious sort of occurrence given recent events.
posted by alumshubby at 8:30 AM on October 3, 2001

they ALWAYS mention that the attack was carried out by a black man/woman/group if it was, but if it was by white people, they don't mention the ethnicity.

I believe that this is simply a numbers game, with no malice or racism intended; there are far more white (causasian, whatever) people in the US than there are black, or hispanic, etc. So unless told otherwise, an alleged criminal is assumed to be white. Just a hunch, but I'd wager that in, say, India, the opposite would be true: if an alleged criminal is Indian, no mention would be made of skin color, but if said person is white, it would be mentioned.
posted by davidmsc at 8:41 AM on October 3, 2001

David: In my hometown, "white" people accounted for something like 1% of the population. Less than several other backgrounds, and I'm not counting Hispanic(#1), and black(#2). I doubt the numbers are too different where I live now.
Your statement might sort of hold on a national thought level, but most people don't do that.
posted by Su at 9:04 AM on October 3, 2001

We've had the terrorist manual thread elsewhere, but recent history suggests that American children are far more likely to be killed by their parents, or by their fellow pupils, than the products of the Pakistan madrassas. Now that's an unpalatable truth. Or was Osama bin Laden the shadowy presence behind Columbine as well?

How exactly does the existence of other bad things make us safer from terrorism?

Columbine has nothing to do with the fact that 6,000 schools exist in Pakistan where the primary purpose is to radicalize poor Islamic youth into believing that the Koran teaches them to bomb embassies, kill thousands of American civilians, and serve as the fascist shock troops of Islamic jihad.

The term "histrionics" seems to imply that I'm overexaggerating the threat to the U.S. and other Western countries. Tell me how that's possible after Sept. 11.
posted by rcade at 9:10 AM on October 3, 2001

Terrorism is, to cite just one real life recent example, a group of middle-aged ladies chatting while on a cigarette break, suddenly showered with flaming debris and running across the WTC plaza totally enwrapped in flames, screaming and crying as they burn to death.

Sigh. I don't think that the events of 9/11 weren't tragic and horrific. My dad had a meeting in the Pentagon which was scheduled for an hour later. Still, he had a pretty impressive view of the plane hitting the Pentagon from his office window less than 1/2 mile away. The events hit close to home.

But, fundamentally, getting past the spontaneous reaction to the events, how do you want to react to terrorism in the long run? Do you enter a state of increased awareness and *reasonable* precaution, or do you react in panic to every bit of news, essenitally hiding your head in the sand without thinking?

If you don't accept the paradigm behind terrorism, or react in ways that don't follow the paradigm, then you defeat terrorism. Otherwise, it defeats you.
posted by warhol at 9:18 AM on October 3, 2001

The term "histrionics" seems to imply that I'm overexaggerating the threat to the U.S. and other Western countries. Tell me how that's possible after Sept. 11.

There are council estates in Belfast that have been breeding grounds for terrorists over the past 30 years, inculcating the belief that knocking off taxi drivers from the other "tradition", or blowing up English pubs and shopping centres, furthers their cause. People in Northern Ireland and on the mainland have responded to that very real threat with heightened alertness, and a willingness to tolerate inconvenience when it comes to security. The situation in the US has gone from extreme complacency to extreme paranoia. That's understandable, but it's not helpful in the long run.
posted by holgate at 9:46 AM on October 3, 2001

Well let's see-this morning in America a guy doing nothing but driving a bus suddenly has his throat cut open, 6 people are murdered in the subsequent crash, the corpses aren't even at the morgue, but you're ready to file the whole incident away as "just another whack-job ending his days," and what really bothers you is some friggin DJs speculating on the murderer's nationality?
"Just another whackjob" is your considered assessment? This is the enlightened thinking you preach? No thanks.
posted by quercus at 9:48 AM on October 3, 2001

I'm inclined to agree with the "just another whackjob" line of thought.
posted by Loudmax at 10:12 AM on October 3, 2001

Holgate, I certainly do not want to start a grotesque oneupmanship thing, but perhaps the security level in Northern Ireland is commensurate with the threat level. The worst IRA bombing I know of was at Omagh with approximately 30 dead and hundreds injured. Horrible murders to be sure, different in degree but not kind from the WTC bombings. Still, numbers do produce their own effects. Correct me if I am wrong, but the number of victims on September 11 exceeds the numbers of victims in 30 years of sectarian violence in Northern Ireland. As a man of reason, I'm sure you can see why that sudden onslaught brought shock and concomitant paranoia to an, as you say, complacent country. Actually, the paranoia level is far below what I, at least, would expect. The lack of kneejerk reactions is encouraging, and no doubt the Left has contributed to this development. Thus, I am glad to have a diversity of opinion on everything, but I do not see Northern Ireland as the appropriate model here.
posted by quercus at 10:43 AM on October 3, 2001

The situation in the US has gone from extreme complacency to extreme paranoia.

Getting back to my original comment, a group of crazed radicals hate Americans so much they want to kill our children at their playgrounds. You can attach any unflattering adjective you like, but that doesn't change the accuracy of the statement.
posted by rcade at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2001

I had no idea Croatia was in the Middle East.
posted by melimelo at 10:52 AM on October 3, 2001

Loudmax, I'm not discussing the whackjob as theory behind the crime line of thought. I'm talking about hearing of a specific human tragedy and pigeonholing it, e.g. massmurder=whackjob, end of story. Don't you see how that just ends thought on the matter? Warhol just wants to compartmentalize it as an everyday ("just another") thing and continue on his way to work. Yet the DJs have thrown a wrench into his file and forget it plans-even if their speculations are wrong, even biased, they force an examination of events, i.e. it's not "just another" mass murder-but a specific event with a specific meaning. This whole mental game is played often in America, and is one place the Left is correct: e.g. Rwanda-"just another" tribal conflict, Somalia-"just another" famine. Both assumptions are wrong, and the readymade pigeonholing of them is just a way to avoid engagement in the matter. Why think when thoughts come preassembled?
posted by quercus at 11:03 AM on October 3, 2001

Warhol just wants to compartmentalize it as an everyday ("just another") thing and continue on his way to work. Yet the DJs have thrown a wrench into his file and forget it plans-even if their speculations are wrong, even biased, they force an examination of events

There was no examination of events. There was very much a lack of critical thinking and immediate speculation. Bad that someone acted oddly on the bus? You bet. Should your first reaction be to question nationality? Umm, no. Question the person? Yes. Question the events? Yes. Show some critical thinking? Yes. Did the DJs push in any of those directions? No.

Me? I was willing to open up the can of worms and put my thoughts and opinions here on MeFi for critical comment. It wasn't about being overly sensitive to racism, it wasn't about my way of dealing with the situation, it was simply about my annoyance about the willingness of people to overreact to a situation and not show any critical thought. I stand by my original comments that the nationality of the person had very little to do with the critical thought of the situation.
posted by warhol at 11:54 AM on October 3, 2001

Since you brought up Northern Ireland, there are lessons to be learned about what not to do.
posted by chrismc at 1:24 PM on October 3, 2001

Seeing how Croatia has a large Muslim population...


Since when? According to our last census (conducted in March this year) only two or three percent of Croatian population are Muslim.
posted by happyh at 1:29 PM on October 3, 2001

Geography has never been our strong suit as a nation. It's partly what enables us to see people with darker skin and assume that they are Middle Eastern and therefore, in some small or large way, responsible for the attacks. The thing is, though, it really wouldn't matter if Croatia did have a large Muslim population. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, are not responsible. I agree with warhol. Critically examine what happened, question why it happened -- but please don't make the kneejerk assumption that ethnicity is relevant and that it's at the root of what happened.
posted by UnReality at 1:59 PM on October 3, 2001

Geography has never been our strong suit as a nation.

I know; out of courtesy I didn't want to pinpoint that myself... :-)

please don't make the kneejerk assumption that ethnicity is relevant and that it's at the root of what happened

Agreed. However, I can also understand those who questioned attacker's nationality/ethnicity. It doesn't mean that I approve of it — I just think that 9/11 wounds are too fresh and that they are bound to influence people's thinking when something like this happens.
posted by happyh at 3:44 PM on October 3, 2001

Time to get away from this whiny worrying about every perceived racist slight.

I agree, that's what I said when we started profiling white guy at truck rental places after the Oklahoma City bombing.

Oh, wait. We didn't do that.
posted by anildash at 5:03 PM on October 3, 2001

LauraVW:I wondered why all the prisoners all travel Greyhound...

One major stop going to Chicago picks up a lot of prisoners.

Laura, of the times I've traveled Greyhound, I couldn't tell you the number of times I've heard, "I have to go to Court tomorrow. I hope I don't go to jail".

As tragic as this is, I've been wondering when something of this magnitude would occur. Because Greyhound is a cheap travelling service, there are no real security measures. Hopefully, this is a wake-up call.
posted by modularette at 7:13 AM on October 4, 2001