"How could they use such offensive language in such a casual manner?"
January 12, 2012 2:46 PM   Subscribe

"What I'm getting at here is that slut shaming is wrong at any age" - A thirteen year-old girl provides an articulate and thoughtful argument against slut-shaming.
posted by quin (123 comments total) 53 users marked this as a favorite

 
She is very articulate for a thirteen year old. I really enjoyed the video and wish that females didn't have to deal with such bull shit.
posted by Jaymzifer at 2:53 PM on January 12, 2012


i have a teenage relative that constantly slut shames on her FB. i just posted this hoping she clicks on it. this girl is totally rad.
posted by nadawi at 2:54 PM on January 12, 2012 [6 favorites]


Excellent video, will be using in it in my Personal Planning class next semester.
posted by sadtomato at 2:54 PM on January 12, 2012


Bravo!
posted by IvoShandor at 2:58 PM on January 12, 2012


she's being raised very well. "rape is caused by rapists"
posted by Pants! at 2:58 PM on January 12, 2012 [9 favorites]


That is a very sharp young lady.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 3:00 PM on January 12, 2012


I liked what she had to say a lot.
posted by francesca too at 3:06 PM on January 12, 2012


If that's our future, then we're doomed.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 3:08 PM on January 12, 2012


Great, articulate kid!
posted by leslies at 3:13 PM on January 12, 2012


There's a meme going around my FB friends that reads something like "Slut: A Woman With The Morals Of A Man."

Anyhow, yeah, this young lady rocks.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:15 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


And Crabby - how do you figure doomed? She makes me hopeful!
posted by leslies at 3:17 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


She makes a lot of good points, is articulate, and this message should be shared.

I found myself a bit distracted about 45 seconds in as I found myself trying to find an instance where there was a punctuation mark of some sort in the monologue that wasn't tied to a change in pose in the video. There weren't many.
posted by HuronBob at 3:20 PM on January 12, 2012


I really don't care what you do (in a voluntary fashion) within the confines of the bedroom (or that hot guy/gal's bedroom, or within how ever many bedrooms per time unit you care for). Outside of it, though, you will find me, the crabby Old Man Man who dislikes the current fashion of "How little can I put on before the cops stop me?"
posted by Slackermagee at 3:28 PM on January 12, 2012


Damn, I was hoping she'd end the video like this.

Good find.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:28 PM on January 12, 2012


Crabby thinks we're doomed because he's a lil ol' Crabby Appleton. He just can't help it, poor guy.
posted by muddgirl at 3:33 PM on January 12, 2012 [5 favorites]


the current fashion of "How little can I put on before the cops stop me?"

I don't understand the presence of the word "current" in this sentence. Do you really think that there haven't been scantily clad people in the past?
posted by sparkletone at 3:40 PM on January 12, 2012 [16 favorites]


It's a well known fact that due to relativistic effects, human beings can only perceive "the past" as "these few facts that I remember from a few years when I was young".
posted by no regrets, coyote at 3:46 PM on January 12, 2012 [28 favorites]


the current fashion of "How little can I put on before the cops stop me?"

As compared to the Elizabethan era, when women regularly had their breasts exposed and men wore short tunics with no underwear, so their dong hung out like the clapper of a bell.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 3:47 PM on January 12, 2012 [27 favorites]


do you know who gets a say in what women wear? the woman wearing the clothes. the view that women should cater their outfits to what "crabby old men" think is hopefully something that will go out of fashion.
posted by nadawi at 3:49 PM on January 12, 2012 [40 favorites]


The definition of "acceptable clothing" has varied pretty wildly over time and in different cultures. The amount of cleavage shown by a respectable lady in the 1600s would have been scandalous in 1950s America, "underwear" covered more skin than today's average business suit, and society men rocked out with their cocks out, as it were.

"These young people and their unacceptable, scandalous dress" is about constantly drifting societal signifiers, not some static measure of "respectable attire" that is being steadily eroded.
posted by verb at 3:50 PM on January 12, 2012 [7 favorites]


do you know who gets a say in what women wear?

A small group of magazine editors in New York and Paris.
posted by Flashman at 3:53 PM on January 12, 2012 [20 favorites]


do you know who gets a say in what women wear?

A small group of magazine editors in New York and Paris.


This is not true for basically every woman I know.
posted by maqsarian at 3:57 PM on January 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


the current fashion of "How little can I put on before the cops stop me?"

Where do you live?
posted by DU at 3:59 PM on January 12, 2012


My favorite bit is towards the beginning when she talks about the subject being talked about by a 13 year old, then throws on the glasses and says 'deal with it.' I really wanted a Who/David Caruso 'EEEEYAAAAHHH' right after it.

Anyway, she's cool.
posted by lumpenprole at 4:12 PM on January 12, 2012 [5 favorites]


dislikes the current fashion of "How little can I put on before the cops stop me?"

Meanwhile I'm wondering why we can't just all be naked most of the time it's warm enough. Especially at places like the beach.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 4:13 PM on January 12, 2012 [11 favorites]


This is not true for basically every woman I know.

Ooh! Ooh! An opportunity to quote fictional fashion magazine powerhouse Miranda Priestly:
This... 'stuff'? Oh... ok. I see, you think this has nothing to do with you. You go to your closet and you select out, oh I don't know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you're trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue, it's not turquoise, it's not lapis, it's actually cerulean. You're also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar De La Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves St Laurent, wasn't it, who showed cerulean military jackets? I think we need a jacket here. And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of 8 different designers. Then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic casual corner where you, no doubt, fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs and so it's sort of comical how you think that you've made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you're wearing the sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room. From a pile of stuff.
Anyway, this kid is rad. Good for her!
posted by rtha at 4:15 PM on January 12, 2012 [35 favorites]


Smart person. Good for her.
posted by carter at 4:25 PM on January 12, 2012


I put this on my FB and I fully expect to get somebody saying "Do you REALLY think it's APPOPRIATE for a 13 year old GIRL to SAY this??!!! I feel sorry for her PARENTS, hope she doesn't end up pregnant at 14!!1!"

Though maybe I've already blocked all the people on my FB who would do that. Here's hopin'.

I work with a woman who has two daughters, 7 and 10. She has refused to tell them *anything* about where babies come from or even use the proper terms for body parts around them (or let them do so). The older one has probably figured some or all of it out herself, but no doubt her mom would think something like this completely unacceptable for her to hear. It's really distressing how many other parents I know who just refuse to help their kids understand sex as a part of life, not some horrible scary thing that's also forbidden fruit you should be ashamed of.
posted by emjaybee at 4:25 PM on January 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


Good for her and this should be a nation wide PSA.

I was watching Grease for a couple of minutes last night during a part about a girl worrying about getting a "reputation". Things haven't changed one bit.

I really appreciate this girl's intelligence and willingness to stand up for what's right. I'm really glad too that this is getting so much play and interest on the web. Good show!
posted by snsranch at 4:26 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


I've just got to say that your uniform is really the most soothing shade of blue. I'm not kidding you. I notice those things. It's a sky blue. Very calming. Very tranquil. I think the word for that particular shade is Cerulean, actually. Cerulean Blue. Cerulean makes me think of a breeze. A gentle breeze. Cerulean is like a gentle breeze. Cerulean Blue is a gentle breeze. . .
posted by maqsarian at 4:29 PM on January 12, 2012 [5 favorites]


The most irritating format for anything ever: the quick-scene-edit youtube vlog.

This little girl is 13 and has been posting on youtube for 2 years. What the fuck is wrong with her parents?
posted by hellslinger at 4:31 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


This little girl is 13 and has been posting on youtube for 2 years. What the fuck is wrong with her parents?

I'll go ahead and wager that they trust that their daughter is mature enough and intelligent enough to communicate in a public forum.

What the fuck is wrong with you?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:33 PM on January 12, 2012 [93 favorites]


This little girl is 13 and has been posting on youtube for 2 years. What the fuck is wrong with her parents?

Oh FFS. I'm only surprised this type of comment didn't come way earlier in the thread. Is posting YouTube videos somehow detremental to the innocent girlhood of yore?
posted by IvoShandor at 4:34 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


As compared to the Elizabethan era, when women regularly had their breasts exposed and men wore short tunics with no underwear, so their dong hung out like the clapper of a bell.

And the codpiece arose (heh) from a fashion for tights so tight that pretty much nothing was left to the imagination.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:36 PM on January 12, 2012


I'll go ahead and wager that they trust that their daughter is mature enough and intelligent enough to communicate in a public forum.

I guess it's part of the "children should be seen and not broadcast" ethos... Which I normally heartily endorse, but this is a smart articulate child, and that makes all the difference.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:38 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


The most irritating format for anything ever: the quick-scene-edit youtube vlog.

Yes, and Middleschool jazz bands don't really swing all that well. Give the kid a break; she's a kid. Which is what makes this so cool. She's well spoken, does a better job editing than most people I know would, and to top it all off, is saying something very important that should be said frequently by a wide variety of people.

Good on her, and good on her parents for raising a 13 year old girl who's already so frickin' cool.
posted by Gygesringtone at 4:38 PM on January 12, 2012 [12 favorites]


The only sad thing about this whole affair is how many Americans will brand this girl as a "slut" for having intelligent thoughts about sexuality and daring to speak publicly about it.
posted by snsranch at 4:47 PM on January 12, 2012 [4 favorites]


I think "current fashion" refers to people, currently, dressing in a revealing manner as opposed to "historical fashions" in which people, historically, wore revealing clothing. I don't think that was meant to insinuate that people haven't wore revealing clothing at other times in history only that Slackermaggy isn't concernedwith how people dressed when he was not alive. And I think he. like anyone, has a right to his opinion about fashion.
posted by PJLandis at 4:48 PM on January 12, 2012


he. like anyone, has a right to his opinion about fashion.

If it's just an opinion about fashion, this is not a thread about fashion. As this is a thread about slut-shaming, he seems to be arguing that somehow women who dress in revealing clothing are responsible for their own slut shaming.

Of course he has a right to that opinion. And others have a right to disagree, and certainly will.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:51 PM on January 12, 2012 [9 favorites]


If that's our future, then we're doomed because the smart, articulate young people are going to completely crush their dull, complacent elders and leave them in the dust of shameful history. And, y'know, that's the kind of "we're doomed" that I can live with.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:56 PM on January 12, 2012 [12 favorites]


The style of editing here -- that annoying self-dialogue-with-occasional-position-changes that doesn't seem to have changed since the birth of YouTube -- makes me want to slut-shame.

The editing style of a YouTube video angers and annoys you so much that you want to slut-shame? I assume you mean you want to slut-shame the girl in the video. Why? What do you think would be accomplished by making this young woman ashamed of her sexuality? Why do you think abusing a young woman and making her ashamed of her body and her sexual impulses is a reasonable response to being annoyed by her video? Wouldn't it be simpler, and much less asshole-ish, to just not fucking watch the damn thing?
posted by palomar at 5:01 PM on January 12, 2012 [11 favorites]


It's your future, but my present.
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:01 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


But then he doesn't get attention and a chance to spout provocative nonsense, palomar!
posted by defenestration at 5:03 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'd be more interested in an authentic assessment of she slut-shaming that she sees around her, rather than a cogent rehash of a number of recent articles about slut-shaming. I'd like to know how this presents itself to a 13-year-old.

Then again, I'm 35. I'm not her audience. Her audience knows what they see around them, and they could use the framework that the cogent rehash provides. Good stuff.
posted by gurple at 5:07 PM on January 12, 2012 [4 favorites]


Bunny Ultramod didn't waste a second to show everyone how thoughtful and vigilant he is.

Maybe you're right though, there's no reason to worry about young girls posting pictures and videos of themselves on the internet...

Maybe she's right, but is just repeating something she heard and doesn't grasp any of it. Is it still impressive then?

Perhaps we should encourage such forward and responsible thinking. When she's 25 years old and has stayed true to her words, that will be impressive.
posted by hellslinger at 5:08 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


Check back to this thread in 12 years, fact fans, to see if she's kept it real!
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:10 PM on January 12, 2012 [9 favorites]


dislikes the current fashion of "How little can I put on before the cops stop me?"

Meanwhile I'm wondering why we can't just all be naked most of the time it's warm enough. Especially at places like the beach.


Meanwhile I'm wondering why we can't just all be naked period.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:11 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


When she's 25 years old and has stayed true to her words, that will be impressive.

How would you define her "staying true to her words"? I am curious.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:12 PM on January 12, 2012 [4 favorites]


Check back to this thread in 12 years, fact fans, to see if she's kept it real!


Be a couth vigilante!
posted by defenestration at 5:12 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


Meanwhile I'm wondering why we can't just all be naked period.

Well, some of us are cold. And some of us are working with welding equipment!
posted by baf at 5:13 PM on January 12, 2012 [28 favorites]


That means she has to abstain from shaming women dressed in such and such a way until she is 25. I guess?
posted by everichon at 5:13 PM on January 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


Bunny Ultramod didn't waste a second to show everyone how thoughtful and vigilant he is.

Or maybe he was just responding to you? How do you know what his motivations were?

Maybe you're right though, there's no reason to worry about young girls posting pictures and videos of themselves on the internet...

If it's to say stuff like this, sure, I think it's pretty right on.

Maybe she's right, but is just repeating something she heard and doesn't grasp any of it. Is it still impressive then?

The message sure was, and it was delivered with great style. I think she probably composed this herself, but then I like to give children the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps we should encourage such forward and responsible thinking. When she's 25 years old and has stayed true to her words, that will be impressive.

I don't even know what this means. Are you going to keep tabs on her for the next 12 years and see if she ever slut-shames? Do her convictions now hold no weight, because she's a child? What's the grace period for an ethical position?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:14 PM on January 12, 2012 [13 favorites]


That means she has to abstain from shaming women dressed in such and such a way until she is 25. I guess?

Only if that's what she wants to do when she grows up.
posted by hellslinger at 5:14 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


One of the reasons I like the movie Easy A so much is that it signals "goofy, raunchy teen sex comedy" in every way - the kind of movie that 13-year-olds would watch behind their parents' backs as an act of rebellion - but under the surface it has some very serious anti-slut-shaming messages that would actually get the message across to the kids who most need to hear it.
posted by naju at 5:17 PM on January 12, 2012 [10 favorites]


I, personally, would like to advocate for slouch shaming.

Your spines, people, your spines!
posted by everichon at 5:18 PM on January 12, 2012 [7 favorites]


Maybe she's right, but is just repeating something she heard and doesn't grasp any of it.

I haven't been in middle school for nearly 20 years now, but I was a girl in it, and I am pretty sure 13-year-old girls know more than anybody ever needs to know about slut-shaming.
posted by Adventurer at 5:18 PM on January 12, 2012 [46 favorites]


I'd like to know how this presents itself to a 13-year-old.
As a former 13 year old girl, I'd like to say I wish I had seen this at that age. Slut shaming started when girls were in the 5th grade, and by 13th, was well entrenched.

Acceptable reasons for calling girls sluts growing up: Wore makeup, hung out with guys, dated a guy, wore a dress or skirt, grew boobs before the other girls, had the misfortune of growing large boobs (including some back challenging problems with breasts), wearing a bra too soon, wearing a bra too young, girl talking to a boy another girl likes, girl being pretty, etc. . .

I am ashamed to admit I participated too, especially when younger. It wasn't until I was a few years older than her that I started to realize how messed up it was.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 5:20 PM on January 12, 2012 [24 favorites]


Maybe you're right though, there's no reason to worry about young girls posting pictures and videos of themselves on the internet...

If we were talking 12 year old girls posting overly eroticized photos of themselves along with personally identifying information of www.creepystalkers.com, then there might be reason to worry. This is so much not that that thing. See also, what parents fear vs. what happens to kids.

posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:20 PM on January 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


i was 13 the first time my locker was vandalized with SLUT and WHORE. that was also the year i was the subject of a group of passed notes that claimed to know who i had fucked and when and how filthy that made me.

i was still a virgin for 3 more years. i just had the bad sense to have D cup breasts in the ninth grade.
posted by nadawi at 5:21 PM on January 12, 2012 [21 favorites]


Maybe she's right, but is just repeating something she heard and doesn't grasp any of it. Is it still impressive then?

So in one single post you have manages to dismiss both my comment and hers. Bravo!
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 5:22 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


Yeah it's a bit of a mindfuck when you're still the same angsty teen, but suddenly BOOBS makes people treat you differently.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 5:24 PM on January 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


That means she has to abstain from shaming women dressed in such and such a way until she is 25. I guess?

Yeah, I don't get it. Would you respond to a teenager's anti-racist rant with a comment about "let's see if she stays anti-racist when she grows up?" WTF?

Obviously, teenagers have a lot of fucked up ideas that they grow out of, but that comment seemed really odd. Enlightened people rarely move to less enlightened positions ... (though there are the born-agains ...)

Maybe she's right, but is just repeating something she heard and doesn't grasp any of it.

Yeah, you clearly haven't been around many 13 year-olds, or remember when you were 13. It's not exactly a time when you're going to parrot your parents or anyone else for that matter.

I will agree that her enlightened position most certainly came from enlightened parents.

As a former 13 year old girl, I'd like to say I wish I had seen this at that age.

As a former 13-year-old boy, I could have used it at that age too. I didn't even know what slut-shaming was until college, though girls getting treated badly for sexual activity was a very regular occurrence.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:24 PM on January 12, 2012 [10 favorites]


13 was also the year that there was a boy in my grade who would use his size and supposed clumsiness to pin girls against the lockers in crowded hallways and "accidentally" feel them up. he was also popular enough that any girl who complained was instantly labeled a slut who "let" him get to second base.

i think some people forget what being a kid was really like.
posted by nadawi at 5:26 PM on January 12, 2012 [17 favorites]


Apparently the flexibility of the muscles in your eye sockets peaks around this age... I'm pretty sure I'd detach a retina doing all that eye rolling and cutting now.
posted by randomkeystrike at 5:30 PM on January 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


That means she has to abstain from shaming women dressed in such and such a way until she is 25. I guess?

Do you remember when you were a kid and fucking hated it when adults wouldn't listen to you because you were a kid, so what could you possibly know?

Congratulations. You've become one of them.
posted by rtha at 5:34 PM on January 12, 2012 [23 favorites]


Just another anecdata point... I grew big ol' boobs around age 8. Other kids called me a slut because of it. No other reason -- I was a quiet, nerdy kid who loved to read. There was absolutely nothing about my dress, my behavior, or my personality that would have even come close to a loose definition of "sluthood"... except that I had the bad luck to develop breasts before any of my classmates. The slut shaming went on for years. It wasn't until I was over the age of 30 that I even felt comfortable dressing in feminine clothing again. This shit damages people.

I'd stake my entire next paycheck that a 13 year old girl in today's cultural climate is well aware of what slut shaming is, and that she "grasps" its meaning or whatever, hellslinger.
posted by palomar at 5:35 PM on January 12, 2012 [28 favorites]


Man, if I was guaranteed to have a kid like that, I'd totally have a kid.
posted by threeants at 5:38 PM on January 12, 2012 [9 favorites]


Man, if I was guaranteed to have a kid like that, I'd totally have a kid.

Take two, they're small.

Someone get this girl a show. She's got the voice, the presence, and the chops to rule the airwaves.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:52 PM on January 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


you've become one of them

I was trying to highlight how useless the question I facetiously responded to was. So, non-facetiously, I think this girl and her video are great, and I hope it gets seen by a lot of people.
posted by everichon at 6:22 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


Doh.

*sends irony/sarcasm meter in for repair. Again.*

Apologies.
posted by rtha at 6:30 PM on January 12, 2012


This makes me so proud.

Thank you, awesome person, for this awesome video.
posted by odinsdream at 6:45 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


does anyone else find the concept of a thirteen year old girl on youtube talking about sex at all kind of creepy
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 7:03 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


When I was a 13-year-old boy, I was messing around on BBSs with the computer and modem my dad bought me and writing my own crappy tabletop and cRPGs. I currently work in the video game industry.

When this person is a 13-year-old girl, she is learning how to edit and compose videos, write and deliver a script, costume for effect, and, oh yeah, speak her mind on a controversial subject and cope with the resulting praise and criticism, using a camera her parents almost certainly bought for her.

I have no idea what she'll be doing when she's 25 or 32 or 60. But I can think of plenty of reasons why her parents would be fine with this, and I can think of plenty of reasons why we probably don't need to jump all over a kid's early attempts at creativity. Most of the shit you're actually going to do with your life doesn't start inside a classroom, so you might as well get going.
posted by Errant at 7:09 PM on January 12, 2012 [24 favorites]


does anyone else find the concept of a thirteen year old girl on youtube talking about sex at all kind of creepy

No.

It's what they think about all day long.
posted by IAmBroom at 7:12 PM on January 12, 2012 [4 favorites]


This is much better than the 14-year-old girl who wants us to boycott Girl Scout cookies.
posted by madcaptenor at 7:13 PM on January 12, 2012 [9 favorites]


> the current fashion of "How little can I put on before the cops stop me?"

DU: Where do you live?

It's not even clear when he lives. It's certain he's at least middle-aged, however.

These darned kids these days, with their tight-fitting clothes that leave nothing to the imagination, always listening to that Mozart fella! It's not even music! It's just noise!
posted by IAmBroom at 7:18 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


does anyone else find the concept of a thirteen year old girl on youtube talking about sex at all kind of creepy

No more than a thirteen year old boy talking about sex, or a twenty-something woman, or a pastor, or a comedian, or what not. It's not as if she's being sexually provocative; she's just talking about the subject of sex and how people respond to it.

Most of the content about sex on the internet is aout broadcasting sexual availability or desirability, or monetizing human sexuality. This is the kind of "talking about sex" that we need more of, regardless of the age of the speaker.
posted by verb at 7:20 PM on January 12, 2012 [15 favorites]


Meanwhile I'm wondering why we can't just all be naked period.

Because there are bus seats and plane seats and train seats that don't need to be shared by a million naked asses.

does anyone else find the concept of a thirteen year old girl on youtube talking about sex at all kind of creepy

Why should we? Are girls, or girls her age, not allowed to discuss something that affects them? Or is it only ok if they're ashamed to be seen talking about it?

Sex is just sex, people. Everybody just chill.
posted by emjaybee at 7:21 PM on January 12, 2012 [12 favorites]


I find the concept of a 13-year-old girl being sexually shamed creepy, of that's what you're asking. One talking about how that's bad -- no, not creepy.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:38 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


does anyone else find the concept of a thirteen year old girl on youtube talking about sex at all kind of creepy

Well she's saying that having sex is nothing to be ashamed of when you feel emotionally and physically ready for it with a partner you like; that women shouldn't be ashamed of their bodies, or of enjoying sex; that calling girls and women sluts is a double standard for behaviour that is praised in men; that blaming rape victims for their 'slutty' behaviour is wrong, and it's not the woman's fault for being raped, and is part of rape culture.

Very sensible attitudes, and frankly smarter and more thought through than some of the comments I've seen from male mefites in rape/sex/women's rights threads.

So nope, just you.
posted by ArkhanJG at 7:39 PM on January 12, 2012 [23 favorites]


She's so cool that I almost regret my decision to not have kids. Here's to her and whoever raised her!
posted by Kloryne at 7:40 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


@arkhanJG

i havent watched it because i was worried it would be icky/gross

if its on the up-and-up and everything like you said, though, cool
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 7:47 PM on January 12, 2012


Because there are bus seats and plane seats and train seats that don't need to be shared by a million naked asses.

Wow, I never considered this. My pro-nude-in-public stance has been shaken.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:58 PM on January 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


That's why nudists carry towels with them.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:02 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


Oh. I just thought they were hoopy froods.
posted by palomar at 8:04 PM on January 12, 2012 [12 favorites]


No more slut shaming?!

Maury just got a whole lot less interesting.
posted by markkraft at 8:17 PM on January 12, 2012


Just came in here to say high five. I am in such a good mood that I am not even going to look up and see if anyone's saying anything dumb. Just high five!
posted by SharkParty at 8:23 PM on January 12, 2012 [11 favorites]


We need a new short comment, here on MeFi. May I suggest "+"? Because, I would like to "+" this wonderful person a thousand times.
posted by SPrintF at 9:00 PM on January 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


A little late to the party, but pardon me, I've been working at a junior high school all day.
If that's our future, then we're doomed.

I think the "we" refers to either slut shamers or rapists, which means he might have just accidentally outed himself...
posted by GoingToShopping at 9:28 PM on January 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


Because there are bus seats and plane seats and train seats that don't need to be shared by a million naked asses.

And yet we're all supposed to sit on the same toilet seats in public (and non-public, for that matter) restrooms, some of which don't have seat covers.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:38 PM on January 12, 2012


I remember being a teenage girl like it was yesterday sob and I remember thinking like this, although I never said it loud and could never have done it so well. Good on her.

(I've never really got the big deal about toilets. It's not like the bits that secrete more than sweat are sliding all over the seat, unless this is another stand up to wipe thing I was previously unaware of; are there seat smearers out there? Past the age of 8, I mean).
posted by h00py at 12:19 AM on January 13, 2012


Oh, and I meant to say that I still agree with her, 30something years later.
posted by h00py at 12:35 AM on January 13, 2012


+
posted by Pendragon at 1:31 AM on January 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


+

[Bookmarked for future reference for my 5- and 1-year-old daughters.]
posted by erniepan at 2:00 AM on January 13, 2012 [2 favorites]


On behalf of 13-year-old boys everywhere, I'd like to agree with this girl. Slut shaming is bad! Sluts good! Need mohr! /juvenile-mode

Yes. Sounds good. Don't relate well, I was a 13-year-old male slut, chasing the boys. Oops.
posted by Goofyy at 5:04 AM on January 13, 2012


@arkhanJG

i havent watched it because i was worried it would be icky/gross

if its on the up-and-up and everything like you said, though, cool


Perhaps next time you should either watch the linked video before commenting, or pass on the thread.
posted by odinsdream at 7:15 AM on January 13, 2012 [4 favorites]


When I was 16/17 (the age of consent is 16 here) I really hated the phrase 'male slag [UK equivalent of 'slut']' and whenever I heard it I'd tell them that 'slag' itself was quite sufficient, thankyouverymuch. (The other sexual insult I hated was 'paki-shagger', which is offensive on so many levels that I'd hesitate to write it at all if this were a British forum.) Are boys ever slut-shamed?

The film 'Shame', about a sex addict, is coming out this weekend so there's been a lot of anonymised accounts of sex addiction in the press, but always about men, and always written about as seriously as alcoholism or eating disorders. I'd bet that if they were about female sex addicts, there'd be phrases like 'naughty nympho' and 'wizard's sleeve' used, no respect or understanding that women use and misuse sex as much as men do.
posted by mippy at 7:16 AM on January 13, 2012


This is fantastic. Okay, I put the tab in the background after the first minute because rapid-fire quick cuts aren't my thing, but I'm still impressed that she's scripting, recording and editing videos at her age, has a compelling voice, and solid synthesis and analysis skills, apart even from the fact that her message is important and she has the confidence to deliver it in a public forum at the age of thirteen. Thinking back on myself at thirteen, that kind of blows my mind.
posted by EvaDestruction at 7:40 AM on January 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


@odinsdream

i have history that makes me kneejerk about stuff

sorry i guess
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 7:46 AM on January 13, 2012


Are boys ever slut-shamed?

They are if they are gay. Straight guys, no. Straight guys rule the world. The notion that young males need sex and that's OK, but that young females don't or shouldn't feel that way is still alive and well in many places. I'd say it's SOP most everywhere.

I had another highdea this morning: What if all those Jehovah's Witnesses at the BART station, nay, maybe ALL followers of restrictive Christian religions are just normal folks struggling to accept their own sexuality as something that didn't originate from Satan?

does anyone else find the concept of a thirteen year old girl on youtube talking about sex at all kind of creepy

You know, I see what you're trying to say, but no, I think the attitude that a 13-year-old girl (non suggestively) talking about sex is creepy is itself sorta creepy. Again, I know what you're objecting to--not her speech (I don't think), but the fact that it is publicly broadcast--but I think that protective sort of attitude is what ultimately leads to stuff like father-daughter dances, etc.

I know women who claim that they were very sexual and early ages--one claims to have had many orgasms watching cartoons at age 5. Are they not allowed to talk about sex until they are 18? 13 is the minimum contributor age on most Internet sites (though apparently she's been vlogging for years)...

It's always better than it used to be, but there are still so many fucking restrictions (from parents, school, the laws of physics, etc.) on what kids can and can't do. Talking about what they want to talk about, and just as importantly, publishing or broadcasting what they want to publish or broadcast should be one of their most fundamental rights (and I'm pretty sure it is.)

It's what they think about all day long.

Exactly. You know what happens when you don't (or worse, feel like you can't) talk about shit? Yeah.

Man, if I was guaranteed to have a kid like that, I'd totally have a kid.

Yeah, funny how that works. You actually have to work at parenting, eh? I'd say the only guarantee is that your kid is gonna be a lot like you ... or worse, another one of your family members.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:17 AM on January 13, 2012 [4 favorites]


I grew up in an extremely religious milieu where boys who showed any interest in sex were quite cruelly shamed ("pervert", "sinner", "rapist")—and even so, the girls still got it worse.
posted by Zozo at 8:27 AM on January 13, 2012 [2 favorites]


I hate that I grew up in an extremely sexually-repressed, shame-mongering household. Even though I cognitively know better now, it's impossible to shake, and fucked me up (no pun intended) in all kinds of ways. It's the kind of belief that takes decades to get rid of even when you come to all kinds of revelations about how it's wrong. I'll definitely be raising my kid(s) in an open way; hopefully they'll turn out like the girl in this video.
posted by naju at 8:31 AM on January 13, 2012 [2 favorites]


That is one articulate young lady.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:41 AM on January 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'll add to the appreciation of the wise young woman's commentary.

The only thing that worries me about her is that now that this has gone viral she is certainly going to get harassed by a lot douchebags.
posted by Rarebit Fiend at 9:11 AM on January 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


They are if they are gay. Straight guys, no. Straight guys rule the world. The notion that young males need sex and that's OK, but that young females don't or shouldn't feel that way is still alive and well in many places. I'd say it's SOP most everywhere.

I definitely do not want to do a "what about the menz" thing in here, so hopefully this doesn't come off that way, but in my experience straight guys are, I don't know, "chaste-shamed" or whatever term you'd like, if they're not apparently getting laid or bragging about getting laid. Straight guys definitely rule the world, but only if they conform to a similarly constrained prescription of sexual behavior. If you're a dude who doesn't care about sex that much or is turned on by "unusual" stimuli, that's often seen as weird and horrible, sometimes weirder and more horrible than being a woman who likes sex or feeling sexy or whatever. It's the opposite of slut-shaming in many ways, but it comes from the same place, that if you're acting counter to the rigid sexual mores of your community, you can expect ostracism and ridicule. The patriarchy hurts everyone.
posted by Errant at 12:45 PM on January 13, 2012 [4 favorites]


I grew up in an extremely religious milieu where boys who showed any interest in sex were quite cruelly shamed ("pervert", "sinner", "rapist")—and even so, the girls still got it worse.

Yep. Sexual activity by boys/young men in that kind of environment isn't discussed so much as the inherent filthiness of sexual desire itself.
posted by verb at 1:54 PM on January 13, 2012


As a guy who was somewhat 'chaste shamed' as a teenager, it's not really the same thing. Being called a slut goes hand in hand with also being tantamount with inviting your own rape; as seen from some of the comments on YouTube. Basically, it's your fault for flaunting yourself in front of the men, who of course can't control themselves. If you weren't such a slut, it wouldn't have happened to you goes the thought process.

That guys ought to be able to NOT commit a violent assault on a woman in their presence regardless of what she's wearing - even if she's in bed naked with you, you still don't get to blame her for you deciding you're going to rape her - seems to be something that hasn't really sunk in yet for many guys.

In addition to that, there's several religious types defending their 'right' to not to be forced to marry a slut. They want their women chaste and suitably demure, and those skanky sluts can go hang. Cos obviously women enjoying sex or just liking nice clothes instead of burlap is dirty and perverse.

It's just all part of the narrative that women's bodies and minds and sexuality don't belong to them; they belong to the men, and should meet their standards. And sadly some girls buy into that, and will brand other girls sluts too if they don't act and think as they're supposed to.

Being teased by people for being a virgin doesn't carry anything like the same connotations frankly. And once you do find a partner - or people think you have - that goes away.
The consequences of being slut shamed, especially if blamed for your own assault for being slutty, don't go away so easily, I'm thinking.
posted by ArkhanJG at 2:58 PM on January 13, 2012 [9 favorites]


I definitely do not want to do a "what about the menz" thing in here, so hopefully this doesn't come off that way, but in my experience straight guys are, I don't know, "chaste-shamed" or whatever term you'd like, if they're not apparently getting laid or bragging about getting laid.

On the contrary, I think this is the polar opposite of a "what about the menz" and is, in fact, very much a part of rape culture.
posted by odinsdream at 3:12 PM on January 13, 2012 [3 favorites]


As a guy who was somewhat 'chaste shamed' as a teenager, it's not really the same thing.

It is absolutely not the same thing and I hope I was clear about that. If I wasn't: it comes from the same place, but it is not the same thing and it is generally not anywhere near as bad for men as slut-shaming is for women, though it may be quite bad in specific instances.

Being teased by people for being a virgin doesn't carry anything like the same connotations frankly.

Agreed, but I wasn't just talking about being a virgin or being perceived as sexually inexperienced. Having a "non-normative" straight sexuality, whether that's a low libido, fetish, attracted to women not generally perceived to be worthy of magazine covers, whatever, is also cause for shaming, with deleterious effects. Those social shamings persist far beyond the presence or absence of virginity. But I was responding to the "straight guys rule the world" bit specifically. I think that while the stuff I'm mentioning is ultimately quite harmful, I do not think it is as widely prevalent as slut-shaming, nor does it attack the same loci of esteem, even though I believe the root causes are similar.

On the contrary, I think this is the polar opposite of a "what about the menz" and is, in fact, very much a part of rape culture.

I agree.
posted by Errant at 3:40 PM on January 13, 2012 [3 favorites]


In addition to that, there's several religious types defending their 'right' to not to be forced to marry a slut. They want their women chaste and suitably demure, and those skanky sluts can go hang. Cos obviously women enjoying sex or just liking nice clothes instead of burlap is dirty and perverse.

Well, this is also the dark side of the reasoning that's used in many pro-abstinence circles. The idea is that a person's emotional and physical intimacy is a kind of finite resource -- and that premarital sex is like cheating on/stealing from a theoretical future monogamous partner. One actual classroom exercise involves kids passing a rose around the classroom, each pulling off one petal. The last kid in the class is left with a petal-less flower, stripped of beauty. While that kind of message is theoretically gender-neutral, it ties in with lots of traditional messages about the source of female value. Male chastity in those circles is about strength, power, and steadfastness against corruption. Female chastity is about preserving a precious resource.

There's a lot of messed-up stuff there, and often it's rationalized as a positive message -- an attempt to encourage the kids who aren't sexually active or provocative. The assumption is that none of the kids would be if it weren't for the terrible evils of peer pressure or bad father figures or the evil media or... well, you get the idea. The end result is that kids who do go off the straight and narrow are held up as cautionary tales.
posted by verb at 3:56 PM on January 13, 2012 [3 favorites]


Slut-shaming is bad. Yup, OK. I mean, there are edge-cases, but whatever.

13-year-olds saying "sex is good" categorically full stop? No, it isn't. Sex is...iffy. At best. I know, I read Metafilter.

At 13, you can't even be an authority on being 13. Parts of your brain don't even properly exist yet.
posted by bricoleur at 9:18 PM on January 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


Slut-shaming is bad. Yup, OK. I mean, there are edge-cases, but whatever.

Care to clarify?
posted by verb at 9:39 PM on January 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


Care to clarify?

Uh, sure. If you define "slut-shaming" as "trying to shame a woman or girl for having sex that no one would think of shaming a man for," then OK, no edge cases. But there are patterns of sexual behavior (predatory, self-demeaning, etc.) that are immoral for either sex. That's all I meant. Shaming an individual for exhibiting one of those patterns is seldom appropriate; shaming the behavior may be entirely appropriate in some cases and that's what I had in mind. I'll admit that I was reacting somewhat to the speaker's presumed inexperience and utter lack of nuance, but on reflection I still find her callow, strident and annoying.
posted by bricoleur at 11:23 PM on January 13, 2012


on reflection I still find her callow, strident and annoying.

Sure am glad I was none of these things at 13!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:39 PM on January 13, 2012 [5 favorites]


>> 13-year-olds saying "sex is good" categorically full stop? No, it isn't. Sex is...iffy.

That's not what she said, however. She said that sex is good if you've given consent, if you're emotionally and physically ready for it, if you're using protection, and if you feel safe and comfortable with your partner. That's a pretty long list of qualifiers, and cutting those out to suggest that she's just yelling, 'Sex is good! Sex is good!' is a pretty severe misrepresentation.

You used "predatory" sexual behavior as one of your examples, for example, and it would be ruled out by the "safe, consent-based, comfortable, and protected" caveats she specified. I understand that you found her annoying, but if you couldn't make it through the actual video, acknowledge that you don't actually know what she said.


>> Shaming an individual for exhibiting one of those patterns is seldom appropriate; shaming the behavior may be entirely appropriate in some cases and that's what I had in mind.

The two examples you offered -- predatory behavior and self-demeaning behavior -- are very odd ones. "Slut Shaming" isn't about condemning predation, by any means. It implicitly authorizes predation by implying that sluts are damaged goods, more shameful and/or less respectable than "good girls." And shaming self-degrading behavior isn't exactly a productive strategy.

It seems like you want to pick at this girl's video because you find her annoying, and find a 13 year old speaking about these topics annoying as a matter of principle. Unfortunately, she's beating you pretty handily in the Actual Rhetoric department so far.
posted by verb at 8:33 AM on January 14, 2012 [14 favorites]


"And sadly some girls buy into that, and will brand other girls sluts too if they don't act and think as they're supposed to."

I have met with far more shaming from women than men about sexual behavior. I think because women feel proud when they behave with "appropriate boundaries" they feel that ensuring women who get preyed on by men many times are further shamed by the way they responded to being preyed on. Well did you kick him out of your life right away?? How much did you assert yourself?? How often have these things happened to you?? Why don't you just go get yourself some therapy so you can stop causing people to treat you badly-- you are the problem. I get that each of us must try to ensure we are safe in our relations with others as much as possible, but a lot of people who make these accusations have no idea what it's like to have a mark on your forhead that says "vulnerable" and to find predatory people who know exactly how to use that all around you.

It's sort of like women who have been treated badly by men and had any sort of submissive response are exected to hide themselves from society in shame until they do enough therapy to be good like the other people--- even though you can never be QUITE as good as all those smart people who would NEVER let themselves be treated bad sexually.

It's, as you say Verb, a strange strategy to tell a woman she is damaged and messed up and causing abuse or hurtful sexual things to happen to her and worse than the other good women--- and that somehow that's supposed to make her feel like she deserves to be treated better? That's exactly what's making a lot of girls/women feel like men can treat them badly to begin with, they feel bad inside and less than the other good women.

It's rare that you see self esteem improve by telling someone how bad they are for having poor self esteem, or for needing love when there is little or no real love available in their environment.
posted by xarnop at 9:30 AM on January 14, 2012 [3 favorites]


The two examples you offered -- predatory behavior and self-demeaning behavior -- are very odd ones.

Indeed. Lovely smackdown.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:37 PM on January 17, 2012


Sex is...iffy. At best.

You may well be doing it wrong.
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:44 PM on January 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


I favorited that last comment (because it's funny and possibly true), and then I remembered that sex is indeed "iffy" for lots of people, and that's not "wrong."

Being teased by people for being a virgin doesn't carry anything like the same connotations frankly. And once you do find a partner - or people think you have - that goes away.

[emphasis mine]

But what about being a woman or man with a low libido throughout life, or someone who just doesn't like sex that much? They are told that they are "doing it wrong."

Or what about the man or woman who doesn't like oral/anal/etc. sex? They're told they're not giving partners.

I think older women who don't like sex much take a lot of shit from their friends about it, or more likely, just fake it when they talk about it.

I don't think "chaste shaming" is as simple as it may seem.

...
posted by mrgrimm at 4:29 PM on January 17, 2012


"chaste shaming" basically never leads to cries of "you were asking for it/you should have known better/you deserved it" so it doesn't really rank along side slut shaming.
posted by nadawi at 4:54 PM on January 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


When women are being stoned for suspicion of chastity, "chaste shaming" will be in the same neighborhood as "slut shaming".
posted by IAmBroom at 8:05 AM on January 18, 2012 [3 favorites]


I really regret making that comment now, and apparently coining a very stupid phrase, so I'm sorry about that.
posted by Errant at 2:38 AM on January 19, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well. I don't think it's a stupid phrase. The idea that sexual behavior is a double-edged sword, and that people can be taunted for not engaging in it AND othered for engaging in it nicely captures the "unwinnable game" quality of our culture's sexual ethics.

The important thing to keep in mind, though, is that "slut shaming" and "chaste shaming" exist in a broader context where chasteness is treated a tangible thing, with inherent social (and sometimes economic) value.
posted by verb at 10:49 AM on January 19, 2012 [3 favorites]


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