(SLYT) A rap song in 15/8 time.
April 6, 2012 12:56 PM Subscribe
15/8. Some fun with a non-standard time signatures. 5/4. And Pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows.
Were they written by Neal Peart?
posted by Gelatin at 1:37 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Gelatin at 1:37 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I remember playing Derek Burgeois' Seranade, which was supposed to be a wedding march for his wife. It is in 13/8 and 11/8. He wrote it that way because brides never march down the aisle in time anyways.
posted by charred husk at 1:51 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by charred husk at 1:51 PM on April 6, 2012
More odd time signature stuff: When I marched drum corps in 1995, the show that year was Yanni at the Acropolis. Pretty odd choice for a drum corps show, but it worked! Even odder were the songs that were in 7/8 and 9/8... that we had to march to.
Try it! While clapping in a steady 4/4 rhythm, begin counting off "One two one two one two three". The first time the ones will be on the claps. The second time the ones will be on the off beats of the claps, alternating back and forth between on and off each measure.
posted by charred husk at 1:59 PM on April 6, 2012
Try it! While clapping in a steady 4/4 rhythm, begin counting off "One two one two one two three". The first time the ones will be on the claps. The second time the ones will be on the off beats of the claps, alternating back and forth between on and off each measure.
posted by charred husk at 1:59 PM on April 6, 2012
The 5/4 track 'Never' is potentially a massive international pop hit, if given the right production, lyric tweaks, and a contrasting 4/4 section at some point for brain relief. (Sorry if it's already been a hit I've never heard of, but I don't think so?)
While listening I was wondering why more songs didn't have big blockbuster choruses in 5/4, but then again I think the ear prefers to relate to a big simple 5/4 as if it were a bar of 3/4 alternated with a bar of 2/4. Like why 'All you need is love' is bars of 4/4 alternated with 3/4, rather than 7/4.
Probably more effective as a pop songwriter to wield the dropped beat/mixed meter as an isolated device in that way, rather than a relentless time signature. The famous 'Take Five' in 5/4 does seem quite hypnotic/repetitive/intellect-engaging after a while, in a way that you wouldn't want a love song/pop song to be all the way through.
The dude is also not there yet with his singing to make this a hit. But if you love pop music I think this track is an interesting piece of songwriting.
posted by colie at 2:01 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
While listening I was wondering why more songs didn't have big blockbuster choruses in 5/4, but then again I think the ear prefers to relate to a big simple 5/4 as if it were a bar of 3/4 alternated with a bar of 2/4. Like why 'All you need is love' is bars of 4/4 alternated with 3/4, rather than 7/4.
Probably more effective as a pop songwriter to wield the dropped beat/mixed meter as an isolated device in that way, rather than a relentless time signature. The famous 'Take Five' in 5/4 does seem quite hypnotic/repetitive/intellect-engaging after a while, in a way that you wouldn't want a love song/pop song to be all the way through.
The dude is also not there yet with his singing to make this a hit. But if you love pop music I think this track is an interesting piece of songwriting.
posted by colie at 2:01 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Does anybody have any idea what the time signature is of Vangelis' "Pulstar?" I never have been able to count it out.
posted by localroger at 2:25 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by localroger at 2:25 PM on April 6, 2012
If you can get past their knuckledragging fan base, TOOL does some pretty amazing work with different time signatures.
posted by secondhand pho at 2:28 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by secondhand pho at 2:28 PM on April 6, 2012
If you can get past their knuckledragging fan base, TOOL does some pretty amazing work with different time signatures.
That's partly why I was so interested in the 5/4 track 'Never', which is pure pop but manages to maintain the unusual time signature throughout the whole track.
Lots of metal and 'mathcore' type of bands do inventive stuff with time signatures etc., but they're very niche tastes in music. By contrast, this 5/4 track seemed like it was just a straight yearning power ballad that happened to use an interesting metre. Yet would still sell around the globe.
Is there another pure power-pop love song in 5/4? (I'm sure there are mixed metre ones). If not, then the dude who wrote this one should cash in soon.
posted by colie at 2:38 PM on April 6, 2012
That's partly why I was so interested in the 5/4 track 'Never', which is pure pop but manages to maintain the unusual time signature throughout the whole track.
Lots of metal and 'mathcore' type of bands do inventive stuff with time signatures etc., but they're very niche tastes in music. By contrast, this 5/4 track seemed like it was just a straight yearning power ballad that happened to use an interesting metre. Yet would still sell around the globe.
Is there another pure power-pop love song in 5/4? (I'm sure there are mixed metre ones). If not, then the dude who wrote this one should cash in soon.
posted by colie at 2:38 PM on April 6, 2012
Nobody can really figure out what the time signature is supposed to be in Sufjan Stevens' Concerning the UFO Sighting Near Highland, Illinois.
It's in 65/16 for a few measures, then drifts all the hell over the place.
posted by schmod at 3:00 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's in 65/16 for a few measures, then drifts all the hell over the place.
posted by schmod at 3:00 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
A friend did a medley of Street Fighter II songs and found that the theme for Sagat's stage was in 22/4. Here's the original.
posted by thecjm at 3:01 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by thecjm at 3:01 PM on April 6, 2012
More Pop Songs in Quintuple Meter (5/4):
Gorillaz - "5/4" (well, mostly)
Jethro Tull - "Living in the Past"
Radiohead - "Morning Bell"
The Beatles - "Within You Without You"
Also obligatory: Dave Brubeck Quartet - "Take Five", and also "Blue rondo à la turque"
posted by Doleful Creature at 3:02 PM on April 6, 2012
Gorillaz - "5/4" (well, mostly)
Jethro Tull - "Living in the Past"
Radiohead - "Morning Bell"
The Beatles - "Within You Without You"
Also obligatory: Dave Brubeck Quartet - "Take Five", and also "Blue rondo à la turque"
posted by Doleful Creature at 3:02 PM on April 6, 2012
Oh, and according to Wikipedia "I say a little prayer for you" has some odd metering in it.
posted by Doleful Creature at 3:08 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by Doleful Creature at 3:08 PM on April 6, 2012
Ha. Andrew Huang was one of my best friends in middle school. Funny to see what people are doing 15 years later. He was good at music back when we were kids; it's fantastic to see how it's all come along.
posted by dazed_one at 3:13 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by dazed_one at 3:13 PM on April 6, 2012
More Pop Songs in Quintuple Meter (5/4):
But 'Within You Without You' is 4/4 with a few bars of 2/4 and 5/4 thrown in. 'I say a little prayer' is also a mixed metre example during which the deviations from the normal duple metre are experienced by the ear as intriguing little puzzles that are to be 'solved'...
By contrast, what I think was truly unusual about the 5/4 pop ballad here is that it's all the way through, and it's a catchy pop track, not a mathcore garage band experiment for the sake of it. It really is unusual.
I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but I was mighty impressed by that.
posted by colie at 3:16 PM on April 6, 2012
But 'Within You Without You' is 4/4 with a few bars of 2/4 and 5/4 thrown in. 'I say a little prayer' is also a mixed metre example during which the deviations from the normal duple metre are experienced by the ear as intriguing little puzzles that are to be 'solved'...
By contrast, what I think was truly unusual about the 5/4 pop ballad here is that it's all the way through, and it's a catchy pop track, not a mathcore garage band experiment for the sake of it. It really is unusual.
I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but I was mighty impressed by that.
posted by colie at 3:16 PM on April 6, 2012
I can't believe that no one mentioned what is probably the most famous song pop song in a weird time signature, Hey Ya!. Because of that half measure in the middle of every phrase, it ends up being in 11/4.
posted by shmaw at 3:24 PM on April 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by shmaw at 3:24 PM on April 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
If it's not four to the floor, it's not music, imo.
posted by empath at 3:43 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 3:43 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I can't believe that no one mentioned what is probably the most famous song pop song in a weird time signature, Hey Ya! .
Yeah I learned that the hard way spending several hours one night trying to beatmatch it with any record in my collection -- I eventually just played it out by playing like 2 bars and slamming the crossfader over with a backspin.
posted by empath at 3:46 PM on April 6, 2012
Yeah I learned that the hard way spending several hours one night trying to beatmatch it with any record in my collection -- I eventually just played it out by playing like 2 bars and slamming the crossfader over with a backspin.
posted by empath at 3:46 PM on April 6, 2012
'Never' in 5/4: On repeated listenings, it's clear that he should have switched to 4/4 at 2.15 when the track changes to a Coldplay-style 'oh-oh' break.
They could have really built that up nicely with the drums etc., U2 stadium-style, and then dropped back to the 5/4.
Mathpop.
posted by colie at 3:48 PM on April 6, 2012
They could have really built that up nicely with the drums etc., U2 stadium-style, and then dropped back to the 5/4.
Mathpop.
posted by colie at 3:48 PM on April 6, 2012
Is there another pure power-pop love song in 5/4?
Vanessa Hudgens (from High School Musical) has a song "Last Night" in 5/4.
There's even a hymn tune -- Dickinson College (used for a few different texts) that's in 5/4. It's not super proggy IIRC.
posted by kurumi at 3:56 PM on April 6, 2012
Vanessa Hudgens (from High School Musical) has a song "Last Night" in 5/4.
There's even a hymn tune -- Dickinson College (used for a few different texts) that's in 5/4. It's not super proggy IIRC.
posted by kurumi at 3:56 PM on April 6, 2012
Does anybody have any idea what the time signature is of Vangelis' "Pulstar?" I never have been able to count it out.
"Pulstar" is in 4, albeit an uncomfortable 4. The trick is to treat it like "Kashmir", counting with the drums and rhythm section--melody be damned. The truly uncountable track off that album is "Main Sequence. Good luck.
posted by sourwookie at 4:13 PM on April 6, 2012
"Pulstar" is in 4, albeit an uncomfortable 4. The trick is to treat it like "Kashmir", counting with the drums and rhythm section--melody be damned. The truly uncountable track off that album is "Main Sequence. Good luck.
posted by sourwookie at 4:13 PM on April 6, 2012
More 5/4: Don Ellis's "Indian Lady," one of the weirdest shoulda-been-a-hits of the '60s. Yes, there was a three-minute single version; can you imagine what it would have been like hearing it blast unexpectedly from your car radio in 1967? The whole album it's from, Electric Bath, is great, and full of unusual time signatures ("New Horizons" is 17/4); Charlie Haden once joked that "the only thing Don Ellis plays in 4/4 is 'Take Five.'"
posted by languagehat at 4:30 PM on April 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 4:30 PM on April 6, 2012 [5 favorites]
No fooling, I did a post on Facebook not three days ago listing, for no real reason, my favorite songs in 5/4 time. Number one was, unsurprisingly, "Take Five." Others on the list were Everything's Alright, from Jesus Christ Superstar, and the Mission Impossible Theme
posted by ShutterBun at 4:46 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by ShutterBun at 4:46 PM on April 6, 2012
This seems as good a place as any to ask: just what the hell time signature is this Photek song in (beat begins about 1:04).
posted by Gilbert at 4:48 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by Gilbert at 4:48 PM on April 6, 2012
A very natural-sounding 5/4 piece: Turn The World Around
posted by Daily Alice at 4:54 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by Daily Alice at 4:54 PM on April 6, 2012
Like why 'All you need is love' is bars of 4/4 alternated with 3/4, rather than 7/4.
I'd be very curious to see/hear/understand just what would be the difference if they simply called it 7/4 time signature.
posted by ShutterBun at 4:58 PM on April 6, 2012
I'd be very curious to see/hear/understand just what would be the difference if they simply called it 7/4 time signature.
posted by ShutterBun at 4:58 PM on April 6, 2012
just what the hell time signature is this Photek song in (beat begins about 1:04).
Pretty sure that's plain ol' 4/4 (or maybe 4/2) albeit with a lot of complex syncopation and polyrythmic stuff going on.
posted by ShutterBun at 5:05 PM on April 6, 2012
Pretty sure that's plain ol' 4/4 (or maybe 4/2) albeit with a lot of complex syncopation and polyrythmic stuff going on.
posted by ShutterBun at 5:05 PM on April 6, 2012
PJ Harvey has several songs in less-common time signatures. Here's one in 5/4.
posted by klausness at 5:49 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by klausness at 5:49 PM on April 6, 2012
Eleven, by Primus is one of my favorite odd time songs.
Money, by Pink Floyd is also.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:52 PM on April 6, 2012
Max Richter's Infra 5 has, by my count, four different time signatures. It's also achingly beautiful.
And don't get me started on 65daysofstatic.
posted by sigma7 at 5:52 PM on April 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
And don't get me started on 65daysofstatic.
posted by sigma7 at 5:52 PM on April 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
My friends have this song book from Bosnia where most of the tunes are 7/8. I just found this one on youtube and it has this crappy/awesome lo-fi drum machine loop.
posted by yoHighness at 5:54 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by yoHighness at 5:54 PM on April 6, 2012
I sing with the Seattle Symphony, which does a fair amount of 20th century classical music. Several years ago, we premiered Aaron Jay Kernis's Symphony of Meditations, a three-movement large-scale choral work. It is easily the hardest piece I've ever performed, in part because the third movement was fairly rushed and there wasn't time to edit the score. The whole last movement has a section in Hebrew that alternates between 3/16, 5/16, and 7/16. (In a fit of pique, one of the sopranos re-measured it and found that you could have done it in straight 6/8 with accents & syncopation and had it work out just fine.)
I also sometimes record short cues with a local ensemble on that are written on spec to later be bought and stitched into the soundtracks for movie trailers. Great art, it's not, but it pays. Apparently to the composers who write this stuff, 7/4 is shorthand for EPIC. Easy to build tension with two accented beats at the end of the measure, I guess.
posted by KathrynT at 5:57 PM on April 6, 2012
I also sometimes record short cues with a local ensemble on that are written on spec to later be bought and stitched into the soundtracks for movie trailers. Great art, it's not, but it pays. Apparently to the composers who write this stuff, 7/4 is shorthand for EPIC. Easy to build tension with two accented beats at the end of the measure, I guess.
posted by KathrynT at 5:57 PM on April 6, 2012
Here's an obligatory Wikipedia list of songs with unusual time signatures. And according to that list, one of my favorites jumps around from 13/8 to 5/8 to 8/8.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:30 PM on April 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:30 PM on April 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
Then there's King Crimson's Discipline, during which, according to Wikipedia, "the two guitars of Belew and Fripp, respectively, move through the following sequence of pairs of time signatures: 5/8 and 5/8, 5/8 and 4/4, 5/8 and 9/8, 15/16 and 15/16, 15/16 and 14/16, 10/8 and 20/16, 15/16 and 15,16, 15/16 and 14/16, 12/16 and 12/16, 12/16 and 11/16, 15/16 and 15/16, 15/16 and 14/16. Throughout the drums play in 17/16."
posted by williampratt at 6:34 PM on April 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by williampratt at 6:34 PM on April 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
I just found this one on youtube and it has this crappy/awesome lo-fi drum machine loop.
yeah, i checked out a more traditional version of that song, and this one's pretty intriguing - sure they could have found a drummer who could play this, this kind of music's full of them - but the loop really takes it to a different space
nice find
posted by pyramid termite at 6:46 PM on April 6, 2012
yeah, i checked out a more traditional version of that song, and this one's pretty intriguing - sure they could have found a drummer who could play this, this kind of music's full of them - but the loop really takes it to a different space
nice find
posted by pyramid termite at 6:46 PM on April 6, 2012
Rush is of course rather notorious for odd time signatures (one of their many traits that Primus was keen to adopt) One of my favorites is the intro of Cygnus X-1 which is in 13/8 time, and La Villa Strangiato which has large sections in 7/8 time.
It's kind of amusing how often songwriters seem acutely aware that they're deliberately writing songs in odd time signatures just for the sake of being "tricky." Notice how many of these songs mention the number of the meter in their title. (Take Five, Eleven, She's Only Nineteen, etc.)
posted by ShutterBun at 7:08 PM on April 6, 2012
It's kind of amusing how often songwriters seem acutely aware that they're deliberately writing songs in odd time signatures just for the sake of being "tricky." Notice how many of these songs mention the number of the meter in their title. (Take Five, Eleven, She's Only Nineteen, etc.)
posted by ShutterBun at 7:08 PM on April 6, 2012
but it's fun to try to do, shutterbun - this song i did last year alternates 5/4 and 7/8 with a reggae feel
here, i alternated 16 beats with 15
it's fun, but most of the time, i really do prefer 4/4
a few years ago, i downloaded a midi rendition of jethro tull's a passion play - i still don't know if the transcriber's joking, lost at sea, or it really is that complex a piece of music - but the time signature changes are simply insane - every damn bar at times, it changes - i don't even know how one would have the patience to compose something like that much less perform it or record it
i certainly didn't have the patience to count it out and verify it
posted by pyramid termite at 7:26 PM on April 6, 2012
here, i alternated 16 beats with 15
it's fun, but most of the time, i really do prefer 4/4
a few years ago, i downloaded a midi rendition of jethro tull's a passion play - i still don't know if the transcriber's joking, lost at sea, or it really is that complex a piece of music - but the time signature changes are simply insane - every damn bar at times, it changes - i don't even know how one would have the patience to compose something like that much less perform it or record it
i certainly didn't have the patience to count it out and verify it
posted by pyramid termite at 7:26 PM on April 6, 2012
> If you can get past their knuckledragging fan base, TOOL does some pretty amazing work with different time signatures.
I just wanted to let you know I take incredible offense to that.
To ensure that I am adding something constructive to the conversation (instead of just whining about someone calling me names) I'd like to give the following Tom Waits quote:
"Never have I waltzed to "My Country 'Tis Of Thee," nor met anyone who did. Still, it's a waltz, for it's written in waltz time."
Also, speaking of pop songs with interesting time signatures, if anyone could tell me the proper way to count off Possum Kingdom I'd be grateful. I see people saying "it's 4/4 then 3/4" and people saying "it's 7/4 then 8/4 then 7/4" and I don't know which is right.
posted by komara at 7:28 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to let you know I take incredible offense to that.
To ensure that I am adding something constructive to the conversation (instead of just whining about someone calling me names) I'd like to give the following Tom Waits quote:
"Never have I waltzed to "My Country 'Tis Of Thee," nor met anyone who did. Still, it's a waltz, for it's written in waltz time."
Also, speaking of pop songs with interesting time signatures, if anyone could tell me the proper way to count off Possum Kingdom I'd be grateful. I see people saying "it's 4/4 then 3/4" and people saying "it's 7/4 then 8/4 then 7/4" and I don't know which is right.
posted by komara at 7:28 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
that's called possum kingdom? - the verses are 7/4 and 8/4 - the chorus and a good part of the bridge are in straight 4
they play that all the time on wgrd - what a perverse, creepy song that is - didn't know it was an old song, either, or who did it
what the hell do possums have to do with it?
posted by pyramid termite at 7:40 PM on April 6, 2012
they play that all the time on wgrd - what a perverse, creepy song that is - didn't know it was an old song, either, or who did it
what the hell do possums have to do with it?
posted by pyramid termite at 7:40 PM on April 6, 2012
oh, that's the name of the lake - damn, that's creepy
posted by pyramid termite at 7:43 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by pyramid termite at 7:43 PM on April 6, 2012
Fred Armisen Presents Jens Hannemann: Complicated Drumming Technique is a parody video by Armisen. Apparently includes tips for playing in 9/21.
posted by neuron at 8:00 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by neuron at 8:00 PM on April 6, 2012
that's called possum kingdom? - the verses are 7/4 and 8/4 - the chorus and a good part of the bridge are in straight 4
Hmm...
I count 6/4 alternating with 8/4 for the intro & verses.
posted by ShutterBun at 8:08 PM on April 6, 2012
Hmm...
I count 6/4 alternating with 8/4 for the intro & verses.
posted by ShutterBun at 8:08 PM on April 6, 2012
Here's one of my go-to tunes when I need a good counting workout.
When the missus isn't around, that is.
posted by vverse23 at 8:47 PM on April 6, 2012
When the missus isn't around, that is.
posted by vverse23 at 8:47 PM on April 6, 2012
Nah, Termite's right, it's 7 and 8 alternating for the verses.
posted by unSane at 9:23 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by unSane at 9:23 PM on April 6, 2012
Here's how I'm counting "Possum Kingdom" Tell me if this doesn't match up with your count.
ONE two three four FIVE six se'en eight
ONE two three four FIVE SIX
ONE two three four FIVE six se'en eight
ONE two three four FIVE six SE'EN eight
(I spelled "seven" as "se'en" just to make it easier to mentalize as a single note)
posted by ShutterBun at 10:00 PM on April 6, 2012
ONE two three four FIVE six se'en eight
ONE two three four FIVE SIX
ONE two three four FIVE six se'en eight
ONE two three four FIVE six SE'EN eight
(I spelled "seven" as "se'en" just to make it easier to mentalize as a single note)
posted by ShutterBun at 10:00 PM on April 6, 2012
Many of the songs on Dream Theater's "Images and Words" have unusual alternating time signatures.
posted by archagon at 10:16 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by archagon at 10:16 PM on April 6, 2012
Never mind, figured it out. I was counting 8th notes, as opposed to quarter notes.
posted by ShutterBun at 10:21 PM on April 6, 2012
posted by ShutterBun at 10:21 PM on April 6, 2012
languagehat: Thanks for posting the Don Ellis link. I was a trumpet player in high school and for many years have been unable to remember who the dude was with the quarter-tone trumpet. That was a much-studied album cover.
Also; a favorite odd time signature song: X-French T-Shirt
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 10:32 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Also; a favorite odd time signature song: X-French T-Shirt
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 10:32 PM on April 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Like why 'All you need is love' is bars of 4/4 alternated with 3/4, rather than 7/4.
I'd be very curious to see/hear/understand just what would be the difference if they simply called it 7/4 time signature.
Firstly, the lyrics emphasise the fifth beat very strongly ("Nothing you can do that can't be DONE"), perhaps making it feel like a new measure at that point.
But it's mainly because Lennon hated 'dead' moments in songs and was often cutting out beats or bars in which there was not much happening, so that he could just get on to the next bit. This fits with the 4/4 followed by a measure of 3/4 analysis, because it's really two measures of 4/4 but Lennon simply gets bored during the second one, and cuts it short.
However, the part just before the chorus where he shouts 'It's easy!' should probably be notated 7/4, and again the lyrics and feel of the song seem to reflect this revelation that you can just do what you want with the time signature, like everything else, if you are protected by Love.
The chorus of 'All you need is love' then returns to straight 4/4, but then very consciously seems to mock the verse's beat elision by including a preposterous, over-the-top orchestral chromatic run that dominates beats 3 and 4 ('da-da-dada-dum'). I wouldn't be surprised if Paul added that flourish as an ironic reply to John's impatience in the verse.
I have some accurate transcriptions of old Robert Johnson blues tracks, and there are beats and measures chopped around all over the place in there. This is very different to the kind of ostinato-based weird time signatures (like 'Money' in 7/4) and I think that The Beatles were far more in the blues tradition of finding ways to subtly alter expectations across the rhythmic surface, rather than the more jazz-oriented desire to keep a groove going in an unintuitive time signature and see where its hypnotic mood takes you.
posted by colie at 1:43 AM on April 7, 2012
I'd be very curious to see/hear/understand just what would be the difference if they simply called it 7/4 time signature.
Firstly, the lyrics emphasise the fifth beat very strongly ("Nothing you can do that can't be DONE"), perhaps making it feel like a new measure at that point.
But it's mainly because Lennon hated 'dead' moments in songs and was often cutting out beats or bars in which there was not much happening, so that he could just get on to the next bit. This fits with the 4/4 followed by a measure of 3/4 analysis, because it's really two measures of 4/4 but Lennon simply gets bored during the second one, and cuts it short.
However, the part just before the chorus where he shouts 'It's easy!' should probably be notated 7/4, and again the lyrics and feel of the song seem to reflect this revelation that you can just do what you want with the time signature, like everything else, if you are protected by Love.
The chorus of 'All you need is love' then returns to straight 4/4, but then very consciously seems to mock the verse's beat elision by including a preposterous, over-the-top orchestral chromatic run that dominates beats 3 and 4 ('da-da-dada-dum'). I wouldn't be surprised if Paul added that flourish as an ironic reply to John's impatience in the verse.
I have some accurate transcriptions of old Robert Johnson blues tracks, and there are beats and measures chopped around all over the place in there. This is very different to the kind of ostinato-based weird time signatures (like 'Money' in 7/4) and I think that The Beatles were far more in the blues tradition of finding ways to subtly alter expectations across the rhythmic surface, rather than the more jazz-oriented desire to keep a groove going in an unintuitive time signature and see where its hypnotic mood takes you.
posted by colie at 1:43 AM on April 7, 2012
Firstly, the lyrics emphasise the fifth beat very strongly
Every song in 4/4 time does the same thing ( or at least accentuates the beat in some way) and it would still be just as doable in 7/4 time.
But it's mainly because Lennon hated 'dead' moments in songs and was often cutting out beats or bars in which there was not much happening,
I'm sure there are plenty of instances of that happening, but if that's truly the case, why do the lyrics of "All You Need Is Love" (as performed) not obey that rule? The word "nothing"(in the verses) tends to come at around the 3rd 8th note in the measure. The lyrics would work perfectly well (and could essentially be even *more* streamlined) if the whole song was in 4/4.
The verses are more or less iambic pentameter. Allowing for a beat between each line would make 6/4 time ideal. (if the goal was simply to eliminate "dead" moments) The "ridiculous horn flourish" or what-have-you could have been easily averted by just keeping the whole chorus in 6/4 time. (myself, I think the horn part has its place, as an "echo" of the "all you need is love" phrase, seeing as how they both have the same number of musical "syllables")
I remain unconvinced, but enjoy the analysis. (is that allowed here?)
posted by ShutterBun at 3:42 AM on April 7, 2012
Every song in 4/4 time does the same thing ( or at least accentuates the beat in some way) and it would still be just as doable in 7/4 time.
But it's mainly because Lennon hated 'dead' moments in songs and was often cutting out beats or bars in which there was not much happening,
I'm sure there are plenty of instances of that happening, but if that's truly the case, why do the lyrics of "All You Need Is Love" (as performed) not obey that rule? The word "nothing"(in the verses) tends to come at around the 3rd 8th note in the measure. The lyrics would work perfectly well (and could essentially be even *more* streamlined) if the whole song was in 4/4.
The verses are more or less iambic pentameter. Allowing for a beat between each line would make 6/4 time ideal. (if the goal was simply to eliminate "dead" moments) The "ridiculous horn flourish" or what-have-you could have been easily averted by just keeping the whole chorus in 6/4 time. (myself, I think the horn part has its place, as an "echo" of the "all you need is love" phrase, seeing as how they both have the same number of musical "syllables")
I remain unconvinced, but enjoy the analysis. (is that allowed here?)
posted by ShutterBun at 3:42 AM on April 7, 2012
One of the odder hits from Canadian rock band April Wine:
Say Hello (6/8 time)
posted by spoobnooble II: electric bugaboo at 3:53 AM on April 7, 2012
Say Hello (6/8 time)
posted by spoobnooble II: electric bugaboo at 3:53 AM on April 7, 2012
Rush is of course rather notorious for odd time signatures (one of their many traits that Primus was keen to adopt) One of my favorites is the intro of Cygnus X-1 yt which is in 13/8 time, and La Villa Strangiato yt which has large sections in 7/8 time.
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posted by ShutterBun at 7:08 PM on April 6 [+] [!]
Years ago there was an interview with Rush - around the time of Power Windows - where one of the members (Geddy?) joked that it wasn't a proper Rush song without a 7/8 break thrown in somewhere. Kind of like (in my mind, at least) The Pixies' typical time signature was three bars per measure rather than four (Wave Of Mutilation, There Goes My Gun, Velouria)
posted by spoobnooble II: electric bugaboo at 4:07 AM on April 7, 2012
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posted by ShutterBun at 7:08 PM on April 6 [+] [!]
Years ago there was an interview with Rush - around the time of Power Windows - where one of the members (Geddy?) joked that it wasn't a proper Rush song without a 7/8 break thrown in somewhere. Kind of like (in my mind, at least) The Pixies' typical time signature was three bars per measure rather than four (Wave Of Mutilation, There Goes My Gun, Velouria)
posted by spoobnooble II: electric bugaboo at 4:07 AM on April 7, 2012
He certainly seems to allude to it in this interview (about 1 minute in)
"... we can do a song that maybe doesn't change its time signature every minute. Maybe we can stay at 4/4 and try to make a song that works!"
posted by ShutterBun at 4:20 AM on April 7, 2012
"... we can do a song that maybe doesn't change its time signature every minute. Maybe we can stay at 4/4 and try to make a song that works!"
posted by ShutterBun at 4:20 AM on April 7, 2012
'All you need is love":
The verses are more or less iambic pentameter. Allowing for a beat between each line would make 6/4 time ideal. (if the goal was simply to eliminate "dead" moments)
I'm basing my view on Walter Everett's comments in 'The Beatles as Musicians', who sees the 3/4 measures as evidence of Lennon's impatience with 'empty upbeats' (not downbeats). It's really not the same effect if you remove two beats just to make the song go faster, and I just feel like the song's druggy, sluggish yet-at-the-same-time-uplifting feel is partly due to the single missing beat. 'Streamlined' would not be the desired effect.
I didn't mean that the brass chromatic flourish in the chorus was something that should have been 'averted', though! In fact it wittily forms a jokey response to Lennon's missing beat and indulges the free loving party vibe that the song wants to put across. It's this kind of dialogue between John and Paul, little jokes at each others' expense, in the process of songwriting, that makes them so special.
This dialogue is also experienced at the end of the chorus, which ends with a child-like simple cadence to emphasise that love is all you need - but instead of being a typical 8 measures of 4/4, they make the final measure of the chorus 2/4, cutting the last two beats because 'it's easy!'
The thing about chopping out beats here and there is that I think the brain stores them up to see if they can be re-inserted again, giving you that puzzle-solving high.
This isn't what you get from the ostinato-driven crazy time signature mathcore/jazz stuff.
posted by colie at 4:55 AM on April 7, 2012
The verses are more or less iambic pentameter. Allowing for a beat between each line would make 6/4 time ideal. (if the goal was simply to eliminate "dead" moments)
I'm basing my view on Walter Everett's comments in 'The Beatles as Musicians', who sees the 3/4 measures as evidence of Lennon's impatience with 'empty upbeats' (not downbeats). It's really not the same effect if you remove two beats just to make the song go faster, and I just feel like the song's druggy, sluggish yet-at-the-same-time-uplifting feel is partly due to the single missing beat. 'Streamlined' would not be the desired effect.
I didn't mean that the brass chromatic flourish in the chorus was something that should have been 'averted', though! In fact it wittily forms a jokey response to Lennon's missing beat and indulges the free loving party vibe that the song wants to put across. It's this kind of dialogue between John and Paul, little jokes at each others' expense, in the process of songwriting, that makes them so special.
This dialogue is also experienced at the end of the chorus, which ends with a child-like simple cadence to emphasise that love is all you need - but instead of being a typical 8 measures of 4/4, they make the final measure of the chorus 2/4, cutting the last two beats because 'it's easy!'
The thing about chopping out beats here and there is that I think the brain stores them up to see if they can be re-inserted again, giving you that puzzle-solving high.
This isn't what you get from the ostinato-driven crazy time signature mathcore/jazz stuff.
posted by colie at 4:55 AM on April 7, 2012
'Happiness is a warm gun' contains a single bar of 5/4, inserted just so John can fit in the line 'a soap impression of his wife which he ate and donated to the National Trust.'
The 60s must have been great.
posted by colie at 5:00 AM on April 7, 2012
The 60s must have been great.
posted by colie at 5:00 AM on April 7, 2012
Those are all great justifications for the chosen time signature, colie. But I'm still wondering what the difference was between "7/4 time signature" and "one measure of 4/4 followed by one measure of 3/4". Would the song sound different if it were performed as 7/4 instead? How would it sound?
posted by ShutterBun at 5:09 AM on April 7, 2012
posted by ShutterBun at 5:09 AM on April 7, 2012
I don't think it would sound different at all if notated in 7/4...
Notation (which the Beatles could not read and never had any interest in) is of course only ever an interpretation of what is going on in a given piece of music.
It's just that to notate it with the alternating measures is a more vivid and tangible reflection of what it feels like to listen to, what it feels like to have this dialogue with the composer - having your expectations gently challenged by missing beats. Notated in 7/4, the 'absence' of the 'repressed' missing beat would not be noted or acknowledged.
It's like Freud or something. :-)
posted by colie at 5:24 AM on April 7, 2012
Notation (which the Beatles could not read and never had any interest in) is of course only ever an interpretation of what is going on in a given piece of music.
It's just that to notate it with the alternating measures is a more vivid and tangible reflection of what it feels like to listen to, what it feels like to have this dialogue with the composer - having your expectations gently challenged by missing beats. Notated in 7/4, the 'absence' of the 'repressed' missing beat would not be noted or acknowledged.
It's like Freud or something. :-)
posted by colie at 5:24 AM on April 7, 2012
Not to miss: Stereolab's incredibly groovy Diagonals in 5/4. I suspect the drum track is digitally edited and looped. On seeing Stereolab live, some time in the late 90's, I was crushed to see the drummer don a pair of headphones before playing this song, presumably so he could listen to a click track. He then proceeded to play the main 5/4 rhythm all the way through without any of the crazy breaks that make the album version so mesmerising. Really turned me off to live music for a while!
posted by otherthings_ at 5:37 AM on April 7, 2012
posted by otherthings_ at 5:37 AM on April 7, 2012
I can't believe that no one mentioned what is probably the most famous song pop song in a weird time signature, Hey Ya!. Because of that half measure in the middle of every phrase, it ends up being in 11/4.
Hey Ya! is not in 11/4, Wikipedia notwithstanding. It's in 4/4 with an extra 2 beats thrown in every line (each line is two measures of 4/4, one of 6/4, then another two of 4/4). The whole thing adds up to 22 beats but that doesn't mean it's in 11/4.
It is certainly cool that he threw a couple of extra beats into a hit song and no one freaked out about not being able to dance to it, though.
posted by dfan at 7:30 AM on April 7, 2012
Hey Ya! is not in 11/4, Wikipedia notwithstanding. It's in 4/4 with an extra 2 beats thrown in every line (each line is two measures of 4/4, one of 6/4, then another two of 4/4). The whole thing adds up to 22 beats but that doesn't mean it's in 11/4.
It is certainly cool that he threw a couple of extra beats into a hit song and no one freaked out about not being able to dance to it, though.
posted by dfan at 7:30 AM on April 7, 2012
Like why 'All you need is love' is bars of 4/4 alternated with 3/4, rather than 7/4.
I'd be very curious to see/hear/understand just what would be the difference if they simply called it 7/4 time signature.
There's no difference. They're equivalent. You could play it exactly the same way know matter how you chose to write it.
Firstly, the lyrics emphasise the fifth beat very strongly ("Nothing you can do that can't be DONE"), perhaps making it feel like a new measure at that point.
No, "done" is a syncopated accent in between the 4th and 5th beat. This could be easily indicated in 7/4 (or 4/4 + 3/4).
posted by John Cohen at 4:56 PM on April 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'd be very curious to see/hear/understand just what would be the difference if they simply called it 7/4 time signature.
There's no difference. They're equivalent. You could play it exactly the same way know matter how you chose to write it.
Firstly, the lyrics emphasise the fifth beat very strongly ("Nothing you can do that can't be DONE"), perhaps making it feel like a new measure at that point.
No, "done" is a syncopated accent in between the 4th and 5th beat. This could be easily indicated in 7/4 (or 4/4 + 3/4).
posted by John Cohen at 4:56 PM on April 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
My wife's band, Duck Fight Goose, play almost exclusively in "non-standard" time signatures -- lots of 5/4, 7/8, and 10/8, with multiple changes in each song. Compared to their more math-rock(ish) beginnings where they consciously tried to call attention to the off-kilter feel of the beats, I think with their second album they did a good job of writing listenable, almost pop, music that just happens to be in something other than 4/4.
posted by twisted mister at 11:54 PM on April 7, 2012
posted by twisted mister at 11:54 PM on April 7, 2012
...listenable, almost pop, music...
I bet your wife loves how you describe her band.
:-)
posted by colie at 2:58 AM on April 8, 2012
I bet your wife loves how you describe her band.
:-)
posted by colie at 2:58 AM on April 8, 2012
No, "done" is a syncopated accent in between the 4th and 5th beat. This could be easily indicated in 7/4 (or 4/4 + 3/4).
My mistake - and indeed it makes no difference to the sound of the song whether it's notated 7/4 or not.
However, it definitely feels more correct to me to interpret the phrasing as Lennon dropping the last beat from the second measure in a pair of 4/4, rather than constructing phrases in a 7/4 metre.
posted by colie at 3:14 AM on April 8, 2012
My mistake - and indeed it makes no difference to the sound of the song whether it's notated 7/4 or not.
However, it definitely feels more correct to me to interpret the phrasing as Lennon dropping the last beat from the second measure in a pair of 4/4, rather than constructing phrases in a 7/4 metre.
posted by colie at 3:14 AM on April 8, 2012
Is there another pure power-pop love song in 5/4?
My Summer Girl by The Rentals fits the bill, and pulls off the odd time signature quite well. I must've listened to that song 100 times before I realized it was in 5/4.
posted by grog at 9:26 AM on April 8, 2012
My Summer Girl by The Rentals fits the bill, and pulls off the odd time signature quite well. I must've listened to that song 100 times before I realized it was in 5/4.
posted by grog at 9:26 AM on April 8, 2012
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Here's one in 7/8.
And my favorite song of all time is in 13/8.
posted by unSane at 1:28 PM on April 6, 2012