Turnabout is fair play...or is it?
October 18, 2001 10:11 AM Subscribe
Turnabout is fair play...or is it? (NY Times link) "Bell grew up playing field hockey in South Africa, where the sport is popular among boys. He played on a youth national team until his family left so his mother and his father could pursue doctorates in education at the University of Massachusetts. He is often razzed by classmates because he has to wear a skirt, and he has heard his share of off-color remarks from parents in the stands." Recent U.S. laws meant to give females more sports opportunities are also being used by some males to take roster spots away from females in sports popular among girls (young women, if you prefer) such as field hockey. Cool, guys in skirts!
If a young man wants to play a sport that is not offered to men, I say let him play. It takes a certain amount of guts for them to play these games, because they'll be taunted relentlessly by both peers and parents, mostly because they're sissies.
posted by Samsonov14 at 10:48 AM on October 18, 2001
posted by Samsonov14 at 10:48 AM on October 18, 2001
Hey, rebeccablood's got the right idea.
I know I'd have been all over wrestling if it were co-ed.
posted by Hima Otsubusu at 11:13 AM on October 18, 2001
I know I'd have been all over wrestling if it were co-ed.
posted by Hima Otsubusu at 11:13 AM on October 18, 2001
It's a rather sexist and archaic rule to require girls to wear skirts, regardless of whether or not boys want to play.
Remember the movie "League of Their Own" and the women complained about wearing skirts rather than real baseball uniforms? Same thing.
Skirts have no place on an athletic field (except for cheerleaders).
Also, I agree with rebeccablood. Genderization of sports is just stupid, and gives kids the wrong message.
You know why some sports are still genderized? Because if they were open to competition, women might come out on top. Archery and skeet shooting, for example, would easily be dominated by women.
Hey, Samsonov14 - if it "takes a certain amount of guts for them to play" then are they really sissies? Hmmm.. or maybe you're just co-opting the meaning of the word "sissy."
It takes a lot of balls to be a real sissy.
posted by yesster at 11:17 AM on October 18, 2001
Remember the movie "League of Their Own" and the women complained about wearing skirts rather than real baseball uniforms? Same thing.
Skirts have no place on an athletic field (except for cheerleaders).
Also, I agree with rebeccablood. Genderization of sports is just stupid, and gives kids the wrong message.
You know why some sports are still genderized? Because if they were open to competition, women might come out on top. Archery and skeet shooting, for example, would easily be dominated by women.
Hey, Samsonov14 - if it "takes a certain amount of guts for them to play" then are they really sissies? Hmmm.. or maybe you're just co-opting the meaning of the word "sissy."
It takes a lot of balls to be a real sissy.
posted by yesster at 11:17 AM on October 18, 2001
I was just kidding about that, yesster. Maybe not funny, I guess. The kid in the article is 5'10" 220 lbs., so you can bet I wouldn't be saying that to his face.
I think that thing about women coming out on top in a lot of sports is kind of far-fetched, though. One woman in the article said that it was a matter of anatomy, and she's right. Men, on the whole, are just better in probably 90% of the sports out there. It's not fair, and it's not PC, but it's true.
posted by Samsonov14 at 11:28 AM on October 18, 2001
I think that thing about women coming out on top in a lot of sports is kind of far-fetched, though. One woman in the article said that it was a matter of anatomy, and she's right. Men, on the whole, are just better in probably 90% of the sports out there. It's not fair, and it's not PC, but it's true.
posted by Samsonov14 at 11:28 AM on October 18, 2001
You know why some sports are still genderized? Because if they were open to competition, women might come out on top. Archery and skeet shooting, for example, would easily be dominated by women.
Really? A look at the results for archery from the Sydney games shows the scores being roughly equivalent with the men very slightly higher.
posted by jaek at 11:38 AM on October 18, 2001
Really? A look at the results for archery from the Sydney games shows the scores being roughly equivalent with the men very slightly higher.
posted by jaek at 11:38 AM on October 18, 2001
well, it's worth pointing out that it would be nice to be turned down for your *ability* and not because you were a woman. and I would think it would be nice for less-skilled men to be able to play a good, competitve game with others at their skill level.
the reason the sexes are segregated in sports has to do with logistics (showers/locker rooms), fear of physical contact, and good, old fashioned sexism.
as long as there's a team for everyone to play on, and as long as all of them are entitled to some funding, I don't see why it would be a problem.
hima: I have a friend who was on her high school wrestling team a few years ago, competing with and against boys.
posted by rebeccablood at 11:47 AM on October 18, 2001
the reason the sexes are segregated in sports has to do with logistics (showers/locker rooms), fear of physical contact, and good, old fashioned sexism.
as long as there's a team for everyone to play on, and as long as all of them are entitled to some funding, I don't see why it would be a problem.
hima: I have a friend who was on her high school wrestling team a few years ago, competing with and against boys.
posted by rebeccablood at 11:47 AM on October 18, 2001
So maybe I picked a bad example.
The point is (should be, I guess), "WHO CARES!"
I am a 6'4" 250 lb sissy myself.
posted by yesster at 11:48 AM on October 18, 2001
The point is (should be, I guess), "WHO CARES!"
I am a 6'4" 250 lb sissy myself.
posted by yesster at 11:48 AM on October 18, 2001
Maaaaan, my high school was a total gip.
posted by Hima Otsubusu at 12:27 PM on October 18, 2001
posted by Hima Otsubusu at 12:27 PM on October 18, 2001
Bob Smizik of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette feels that the Use Of Boys Alters Girls' Field Hockey. Why? He quotes Richard Tyler, executive director of the Maine Principals Association: "When girls play boys' sports, they don't change the sport. When boys play girls' sports, they do, because they tend to assume leadership positions, therefore depriving girls of the opportunity to benefit from participating in an interscholastic sport." I agree.
posted by Carol Anne at 12:41 PM on October 18, 2001
posted by Carol Anne at 12:41 PM on October 18, 2001
Carol Anne, thanks for contributing. That's a very valid point. The article you linked to seems to focus more on the fear of injury angle (which is also important) rather than the leadership issue you mentioned. But both are important points in this difficult issue.
I think the coach of a team with mixed-gender players has a great responsibility to make sure opportunities (for leadership, for example, or even playing time) are equal, as well as working with a male player to respect and sometimes defer to his female teammates. Also, for him to beware of injuries to female opponents.
Anyway, good discussion all. Thanks for contributing!
posted by msacheson at 1:03 PM on October 18, 2001
I think the coach of a team with mixed-gender players has a great responsibility to make sure opportunities (for leadership, for example, or even playing time) are equal, as well as working with a male player to respect and sometimes defer to his female teammates. Also, for him to beware of injuries to female opponents.
Anyway, good discussion all. Thanks for contributing!
posted by msacheson at 1:03 PM on October 18, 2001
A look at the results for archery from the Sydney games shows the scores being roughly equivalent with the men very slightly higher.
In a lot of sports, Women haven't exactly been given an easy run. A lot more Women playing sport, and more varied kinds of sports, which is good to see, but they often don't have the same encouragement and opportunities, don't have the same history of involvement in the game of their choice.
Where I went to school, the sports grounds were off limits to girls until I was in about third grade when that horribly sexist tradition was finally lifted. Prior to that they were allowed use of the basketball courts, that was about it.
Carol Anne that does sound like it might be a problem.
posted by lucien at 1:05 PM on October 18, 2001
In a lot of sports, Women haven't exactly been given an easy run. A lot more Women playing sport, and more varied kinds of sports, which is good to see, but they often don't have the same encouragement and opportunities, don't have the same history of involvement in the game of their choice.
Where I went to school, the sports grounds were off limits to girls until I was in about third grade when that horribly sexist tradition was finally lifted. Prior to that they were allowed use of the basketball courts, that was about it.
Carol Anne that does sound like it might be a problem.
posted by lucien at 1:05 PM on October 18, 2001
Shooting is a good example. I have been told that the biathalon was completely co-ed until the women got close to beating the men regularly, and then the rules suddenly changed and now womens' and mens' events cannot be reliably compared.
posted by djfiander at 1:35 PM on October 18, 2001
posted by djfiander at 1:35 PM on October 18, 2001
On a slight tangent, it's worth remembering that most sports evolved when only men took part. Some are tests of qualities that were considered particularly male, such as brute strength. Naturally, women want the opportunity to participate in the same activities, but I think some of those activities are not necessarily beneficial for either gender. Encouraging young people to weigh 300lbs and bench press 500lbs is not particularly healthy IMO. Hopefully, as women get more involved in sport's evolution, emphasis will fall on the existing sports, and the development of new ones, that differentiate less. I happen to like the sports (soccer, snowboarding, rock-climbing) at which women can kick my ass.
posted by liam at 2:03 PM on October 18, 2001
posted by liam at 2:03 PM on October 18, 2001
djfiander - interesting. The web site of the International Biathalon Union does say that women's rules were introduced in 1980. I'm not sure that I buy the part about the women nearly beating the men, I wish I was still a college student so I could go to a library and find 25 year old issues of Sports Illustrated.
Maybe a better way to handle mixed competition is to instead of having men's and women's competition, have an open competition and a "disadvantaged gender" competition. And of course there is no reason that we have to treat the Olympics the same as NCAA Division I the same as High School JV.
As for the boys in field hockey, Title IX is pretty clear on the subject: "No person in the U.S. shall, on the basis of sex be excluded from participation in, or denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving federal aid." Looks like they play.
posted by jaek at 2:55 PM on October 18, 2001
Maybe a better way to handle mixed competition is to instead of having men's and women's competition, have an open competition and a "disadvantaged gender" competition. And of course there is no reason that we have to treat the Olympics the same as NCAA Division I the same as High School JV.
As for the boys in field hockey, Title IX is pretty clear on the subject: "No person in the U.S. shall, on the basis of sex be excluded from participation in, or denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving federal aid." Looks like they play.
posted by jaek at 2:55 PM on October 18, 2001
Why on earth does he have to wear a skirt? It sounds to me like the authorities are doing everything they can legally to stop him playing. It's not like men wear skirts to play hockey anywhere else.
For what it's worth, I have no idea why the women are still expected to wear skirts either..
posted by salmacis at 3:45 AM on October 19, 2001
For what it's worth, I have no idea why the women are still expected to wear skirts either..
posted by salmacis at 3:45 AM on October 19, 2001
Why on earth does he have to wear a skirt? It sounds to me like the authorities are doing everything they can legally to stop him playing. It's not like men wear skirts to play hockey anywhere else.
For what it's worth, I have no idea why the women are still expected to wear skirts either..
posted by salmacis at 3:45 AM on October 19, 2001
For what it's worth, I have no idea why the women are still expected to wear skirts either..
posted by salmacis at 3:45 AM on October 19, 2001
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this would turn out *much* like the present system, but allow everyone to participate at an appropriate level. if a girl truly excelled at the gane, she could play on the "top level" team, (currently the boys team) and boys who currently aren't good enough to do much more than sit on the bench in their teams, would be on a team with similar skill levels, and could enjoy playing the game.
posted by rebeccablood at 10:48 AM on October 18, 2001