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June 1, 2012 4:04 PM   Subscribe

DC Comics hinted recently that one of its first-tier superheroes would be revealed as gay, and here he is: Alan Scott, the original Green Lantern (...sort of).

This Alan Scott is not exactly the character created by Martin Nodell and first seen in July 1940's All-American Comics #16 (a starring role in his own series followed soon after). An explanation of the character's tangled history defies articulation and staggers sense, but in essence this Alan Scott is a reimagined version of that character whose first in-continuity adventures are taking place in the present, on the alternate earth that is the focus of DC's new series, Earth Two. It's complicated.

Alan Scott may be the first "major" DC hero to be written as a gay man, but he is hardly the first gay superhero in mainstream comics. A few highlights:

The first openly gay mainstream superhero was probably Marvel's Northstar, a previously forgettable character who gained unexpected relevance when he announced his sexual preference in a 1992 issue of Alpha Flight; he will be married to his male partner in this month's issue of Astonishing X-Men. The Authority's Apollo and Midnighter are thinly-veiled parodies of Superman and Batman who are gay lovers (this is, no pun intended, played straight); they now star in DC's Stormwatch series. Most prominently, DC's Batwoman is a lesbian superheroine currently starring in her own title.
posted by kittens for breakfast (123 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite

 
And Robin breathes a sigh of relief..
posted by raider at 4:08 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]


And Robin breathes a sigh of relief..

Why?
posted by Greg Nog at 4:09 PM on June 1, 2012 [25 favorites]


And Obsidian, Alan Scott's son before the last big DC reboot.
posted by pibeandres at 4:09 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]


Huh. I was sure is was going to be Power Girl.
posted by happyroach at 4:10 PM on June 1, 2012


And the hopes that it would be Wally West, because that would mean Wally would appear in a comic book, were dashed as we all pretty much knew they would be.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:13 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


I always suspected the green lantern as a toker, I mean come on. I guess the two aren't exclusive though so I can continue to imagine that!
posted by nervousfritz at 4:14 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Yeah… some mixed feelings on this one.

On the one hand, yay diversity, that's good. On the other hand… almost nobody really cares about Alan Scott. He the guy in the ugly outfit you put in things if you need and old-timey hero for some reason, and his vulnerability is wood which was good for a laugh before this, and really, that's about it. He's not really that major or iconic, there's probably about 5 fans of Alan Scott in the world.

Course, James Robinson is one of those fans, and he does good stuff and I'm sure he'll make this a good character and tell good stories, and that's what comics are about, so it;s still positive, I guess, at least if you just look at the likely comics? But the press release is a damp squib.

So anyway, that is why I am unilateral declaring Hal Jordan gay. Stop making him a closet case, Johns!
posted by Artw at 4:14 PM on June 1, 2012 [5 favorites]


I thought it would be Wonder Woman, 'cause, I mean come on.
posted by 2bucksplus at 4:16 PM on June 1, 2012 [3 favorites]


And Robin breathes a sigh of relief..

Why?
posted by Greg Nog at 4:09 PM on June 1 [+] [!]



Because he has a sense of humour.
posted by raider at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2012 [9 favorites]


And the other thing, this is Earth-2, y'all. An alternate Earth. As in, this isn't the main one where DC keeps the "real" heroes, such as they sadly are since the New 52 reboot. In other words, this is not news. This is more of a glorified Elseworlds (or What If? to use Marvel parlance).

So what we get is a bunch of half-assed news stories saying "Green Lantern is gay!" and all the while, it goes mostly unnoticed that DC made a Green Lantern gay, but not the Green Lantern.

Now, had DC gone and said, "You know who's gay? Superman. He's gay now. Deal with it." -- then that would've justified all of the teasing hype promised by the press releases. Hell, they could've done the same thing with Batman, but who would want a relationship of any kind with Bats? The Dark Knight Detective isn't known for falling in love.*

* - And Talia Al Ghul doesn't count. She's just a proxy for her creepy immortal Dad.
posted by grabbingsand at 4:22 PM on June 1, 2012 [4 favorites]


Wait, DC's big gay hero has a weakness for wood? The jokes, themselves they are writing.

I liked Green Lantern and even in the mid-80s as a young teenager he spoke to me as some sort of gay thing. No idea why him in particular, something about the ordinary man elevated to something extraordinary. Also my mom had already made me stop twirling around in circles trying to be Lynda Carter Wonder Woman.
posted by Nelson at 4:24 PM on June 1, 2012 [3 favorites]


A friend of mine is a huge Alan Scott Green Lantern fan, and his response was, basically, "okay, then, not the one I know, but i'll be interesting as long as they don't utterly fuck up a character the way things happened the last time James Robinson got to do a book like this."

(That book was the "Justice League: Cry For Justice" series which was basically all sorts of who-thought-this-was-a-good-idea and stop-drinking-the-kool-aid in written form, so there's precedent for Robinson doing a level of fuckuppery that's epic in scale, despite the amazing work he did on Starman.)
posted by mephron at 4:25 PM on June 1, 2012


Weak joke material:
* Wood
* Terrible fashion sense
* Flaming power
posted by Artw at 4:26 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Because he has a sense of humour.

Sorry, how do you mean?
posted by Greg Nog at 4:28 PM on June 1, 2012 [16 favorites]


How long until this is retconned into the real reason for Rose Canton's suicide?
posted by The Hamms Bear at 4:29 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm not impressed because LGBT characters I like have a nasty habit of disappearing into production hell, written out of the series when the creative team changes, or becoming victim/converted-villain of the month.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:30 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]


Oh, the Robins who could have been gay... So many Robins to choose from! (Is part of why Damian's such a lovable little shit because he's dealing with the whole coming out to himself thing? Could Batman be portrayed as not gay himself but capable of being in a supportive paternal role to a gay young man?)

Blue Beetle and Booster Gold didn't *both* have to be gay, but one of them could have been - and then you have a built-in supportive best friend as an ally role model (y'know, for the kids.)

Hell, which flavor of Aquaman are they on now? I mean a dude who primarily focuses on fish isn't going to be much of a perceived sexual threat and his costume is arguably the most pride-friendly. And weren't they rebooting? Ah, but who cares about Aquaman? Even in the primary DC Earth.

So many options and they picked the most background, unneeded, alternate-Earth-living, who even remembers about the Green Lantern and didn't that movie totally suck choice of their opening lineup. Not that I wasn't expecting it? But still. Oh the Robins who could have been gay...
posted by Mizu at 4:31 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]


Three(?) words: #2 pencil.
posted by pla at 4:31 PM on June 1, 2012


[Northstar] announced his sexual preference in a 1992 issue of Alpha Flight

I still say it happened in 1987 but no one remembers it. (This time I even found corroboration.)
posted by Zed at 4:32 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Huh. I had thought Kyle Rayner was gay, so I was all like, "They all gay, baby, they all gay," but then I fact checked (the enemy of humor) and saw it was just his assistant.
posted by klangklangston at 4:35 PM on June 1, 2012


I'm with Mizu; if not the current Robin, certainly one of the former Robins still running around... how many have there been? 9? 10? Statistically, one of them should be...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:35 PM on June 1, 2012


almost nobody really cares about Alan Scott. He the guy in the ugly outfit you put in things if you need and old-timey hero for some reason, and his vulnerability is wood which was good for a laugh before this, and really, that's about it. He's not really that major or iconic, there's probably about 5 fans of Alan Scott in the world.

And I'm one of 'em. Did you not read Geoff John's JSA?? Alan Scott, quite simply, was bad-ass in that series. And he was pretty awesome in 52 as well ... I mean, he assembled a coalition of heroes from around the world that took down an insane Black Adam in pre-Flashpoint DCU's WORLD WAR III man!
posted by PapaLobo at 4:39 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Weak joke material:
* Wood
* Terrible fashion sense
* Flaming power


Charging his ring
posted by obiwanwasabi at 4:40 PM on June 1, 2012 [3 favorites]


And I'm one of 'em. Did you not read Geoff John's JSA?? Alan Scott, quite simply, was bad-ass in that series. And he was pretty awesome in 52 as well ... I mean, he assembled a coalition of heroes from around the world that took down an insane Black Adam in pre-Flashpoint DCU's WORLD WAR III man!

Heh. Yes, i was kind of thinking "I am totally going to get someone tell me they've been a big fan since he appeared in that floaty smoke cloud on the Justice League cover" because this is mefi and mefi is kind of like that.. :-)

Still, Earth 2 Alan Scott is not a major iconic character. As Comics Alliance puts it he's not even the third or fourth most popular Green Lantern, and that's when he;s not from some backwater parallel world.

Which is not really anything I'd hold against him, I'm a fan of some obscure characters myself, but it makes the PR a ludicrous bait and switch.
posted by Artw at 4:47 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Charging his ring

Oh, good one.
posted by Artw at 4:48 PM on June 1, 2012


Which one was vulnerable to yellow, leading to the Bats totally trolling him by serving him lemonade in a yellow room wearing a yellow outfit?

Death by bad fashion.
posted by Mizu at 4:48 PM on June 1, 2012


And the other thing, this is Earth-2, y'all. An alternate Earth.

It's not even the good Earth Two (which was the original DC Comics continuity that started in 1939), but is instead a rebooted Earth 2 calculated to appeal to new readers, or somesuch thing. I just have no interest in it.

Still, Alan Scott is one of the biggest golden age characters. So within that fanbase this is a pretty bold move.
posted by Kevin Street at 4:49 PM on June 1, 2012


This pisses me off.

DC wants the press and the props while taking essentially no risk. Earth 2? No one gives a fuck about Earth 2. If the book tanks, or a bunch of homophobes start whining loudly enough, DC can just wave their editorial wand and it all never happened.

I mean, they had a real opportunity here. They'd just rebooted their whole universe, wiping away decades of insanely snarled continuity in the hope of pulling in new readers. They had an opportunity to Do This Right, and they punted.

Earth 2. They put the gay superhero in the minor leagues.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love what DC has done with Batwoman. It's a smart, beautifully drawn comic. The Batwoman, Kate Kane, is a Jewish lesbian with a military background. She's an interesting character. And the way she's been written so far, Kate is more than just a collection of "lookit me, I'm a gay woman!" or "lookit me, I'm Jewish!" tropes. There's some depth there. So DC has shown that they CAN do it right.

And then they pick the Green Lantern of Earth 2 to be the Gay Dude. Not Hal, not Guy, not Kyle. Alan. They one only the most hardcore of fanboys even recognizes. (I didn't. Had no idea who Alan Scott was.)

It's a curious hierarchy they've established. The lesbian character can play with the big boys, but only if she remains on the periphery. The homosexual male character, however, has a position of authority -- IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE.

I guess this passes for progress. Better to see gay characters than not, and from everything I hear the book's creative team is enthused and capable.

But the whole thing still smacks of tokenism.

(What I was really hoping for was that DC would re-imagine Ragman, The Tatterdemalion of Justice, because he's got such a great spooky set of powers that he's ready for some Swamp Thing-like reconsideration, but whevs.)
posted by BitterOldPunk at 4:49 PM on June 1, 2012 [8 favorites]


Which one was vulnerable to yellow, leading to the Bats totally trolling him by serving him lemonade in a yellow room wearing a yellow outfit?

All the others that weren't Alan Scott until Geoff Johns got to it and made it all a freaking psych crock.
posted by mephron at 4:51 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


In other news, Hawkman is a furry. or feathery. or something.
posted by jonmc at 4:52 PM on June 1, 2012 [4 favorites]


I just have this vision of Batman opening a hatch in the wall of his cave somewhere and opening up to a rainbowtastic perfectly displayed hallway of a bat suits in every single color. He walks over to the teal one and strokes the tip of an ear and whispers "...soon..."
posted by Mizu at 4:54 PM on June 1, 2012 [8 favorites]


Alan Scott, of all people?

That's like... What? I just fucking love Alan Scott (he's my favorite Green Lantern), but this seems like an empty gesture, just because he's not really a character most people think of when you say "Green Lantern". Shit, he's not even a character you think of when someone says "Golden Age DC". Most people don't give a shit about Scott either way.

Why not Guy Garnder (that guy needs to be made more likeable)? Oliver Queen? Wally West?

Shit, Clark Kent!

I don't know. I don't particularly care too much. I haven't read a comic in forever. It just seems like DC is trying to pander to an audience using an (in the minds of a lot of comic book readers) insignificant character. I'm all for comic book characters having whatever the hell sexuality the writers want, I just think a bit more thought should be put into it.
posted by Redfield at 4:55 PM on June 1, 2012


I still say it happened in 1987 but no one remembers it. (This time I even found corroboration.)

Yeah, Northstar's preferences were never much of a secret. Man, I loved Byrne's run on Alpha Flight.
posted by Kevin Street at 4:56 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


This is only slightly off-subject, but is Alan Scott really a Green Lantern in the same way that John Stewart and Hal Jordan are? By that I mean, does he have the same responsibilities as they had -- given some sector to police -- is he a part of the larger organization, and so on? I have fully understood just how or to what degree they retconned him into the Green Lantern Corp world -- it just seems like there was once a Green Lantern, then the Golden Age ended, only a few characters from it moved into the Silver Age (Batman, Superman, Robin, Wonder Woman to some degree, then Flash and Green Lantern who are just weird looking and they reboot entirely the characters), they retcon a bunch of it, yada yada yada, Alan Scott. I mean what is he in relation to the GLC?

Now on subject. I see the cost of messing around Alan Scott's backdrop is really low risk. I mean, sure maybe anecdotally people know a guy who knows a guy who is this huge Alan Scott/Green Lantern fan. But I think that is almost by definition an outlier in the distribution of comic readers. Alan Scott's an ensemble player to the Justice Society, and I have never been as interesting in him as I was in people like Dr. Midnight or some of the others. I have always been more interested in the Justice Society characters that actually did not get some rebooted version of them in the silver age. People like Ted Grant, for instance. Both Flash and Green Lantern are just awkward -- partly because their presence juxtaposes with the "real Flash" and "real Green Lantern".
posted by scunning at 4:58 PM on June 1, 2012


I just noticed my "pandering to an audience" line makes me sound like a bigoted asshole. I just meant that this seems like a publicity stunt just to make DC seem more relevant. I don't know. I'm on my lunch break, so I'm writing all this in a hurry.
posted by Redfield at 4:58 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Why not Guy Garnder (that guy needs to be made more likeable)?

Being gay wouldn't make him more likeable. It's just part of someone's identity, neither good nor bad.
posted by Kevin Street at 4:59 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


I just mean, he's a character that could use some work. I'd like to see him have a re-boot, of sorts. I didn't mean to say that just being homosexual would make me like him or anything.
posted by Redfield at 5:01 PM on June 1, 2012


Weak. Seriously. But only if this is the first-tier character DC is talking about. We need senior characters to come out. Good and bad. Women and men. Popular and otherwise.

Original Green Lantern I feel for but I really want to know which characters were jerks and making him like he needed to stay in the closet.

I mean, he's Green Lantern. "I'm gay. Don't like it? Go pound sand."

I had to deal with this issue on my own for 30 years. I read comics for 20 of those. All that money and energy I invested in comic books and what did comic book companies like DC and Marvel do for me or other kids like me?

We already made The Gay/MaybeGay Heroes list. I know it like the back of my hand. And so far? Pa-the-tic. Until we get Gay Superboy Clone or Openly-Gay Hulk, I'm still not buying their attempts at tokenism. Because that is what it is

Openly-Gay Hulk or count me out.
posted by humannaire at 5:01 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]


Yeah, Scott isn't even C-List. He's a good mentor type character (I dunno how/who he is in the Nu52) where his sexuality really doesn't enter in to things. Jet Boy from Top 10 is a good example.

With the whole "Daddy doesn't love me for who I am, only what I do" stuff, I'd think Cyborg would be a good candidate. But then you have the problem of the one minority Big 7 character being gay in some sort of callus two-fer.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:02 PM on June 1, 2012


scunning: he was given a 'deputization' by the Guardians of the Universe as one, because the source of his power was something they made... you know, it's complicated and crazy. Just accept that 'the Guardians, who run the other Green Lanterns, said you're one of us'.
posted by mephron at 5:04 PM on June 1, 2012 [3 favorites]


They should have done the build up and then made The Midnighter straight, just to fuck with people.
posted by Artw at 5:05 PM on June 1, 2012 [5 favorites]


Metafilter: I'm on my lunch break, so I'm writing all this in a hurry.
posted by 445supermag at 5:05 PM on June 1, 2012


I guess part of the issue is that everyone is very afraid to make one of the younger heroes gay. Because the younger ones often appeal to kids the most (or are supposed to) and that means that the bigoted parental backlash would be the largest, but the younger characters have the least backstory to manipulate to make them canonically gay in a logical way. Instead they have to choose a hero who doesn't have much perceived appeal to people whose money is actually their parents' money, which means characters like Alan Scott.
posted by Mizu at 5:14 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm glad they didn't go with "The Pink Lantern". Also, I like whevs which I'm assuming is a further contraction of whatevs.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:14 PM on June 1, 2012


He's a perfectly-groomed rich man who jet-sets about the world with his equally-perfectly-groomed boyfriend. His driver refers to his boyfriend as 'your friend'. "Why not, it sounds magical." Tight butts in skinny jeans...

Yeah, there's no danger at all that this will degenerate into stereotypes and cliches. It's pretty much setting up camp there to start with.

Sigh.

I was so hoping for Martian Manhunter.
posted by MrVisible at 5:14 PM on June 1, 2012


I will say that given the leeway Robinson (potentially) has with Earth Two, this is not the world's boldest move, though it is one of the bolder moves left to him given that (SPOILER FOR LITERALLY THE FIRST PAGE OF EARTH TWO #1) this universe's Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are all off the table. Why (I presume) DC editorial chose that route I'm not exactly sure, since an alternate Big Three would certainly have been a selling point; my guess is that they wanted both to set this world apart from the main universe and to avoid having a book that would primarily be about an alternate Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. It's possible too that they wanted to minimize the potential for brand damage...but given that right now in mainstream DCU continuity you have a Batman who conceived a child out of wedlock, a Wonder Woman who was raised by cannibal women or something (I stopped reading Wonder Woman), and a Superman where probably the most outright pathetic Clark Kent since the '30s can be found standing outside the door to Lois Lane's apartment, presumably using his superhearing to listen to another dude bang her...I mean, I don't know.

Anyway, the point is, a gay Batman (or a Buddhist Superman, or a black Wonder Woman, or...) is not an option in a universe with no Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman in it to begin with. Green Lantern is about the biggest of the remaining heroes in the Earth Two continuity. Admittedly, people who expected a character who was a bigger deal have some reason to be disappointed, but I have a feeling the hype was arrived at separately from the creative decision to make this Green Lantern gay.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:17 PM on June 1, 2012 [3 favorites]


kittens for breakfast -- Is he married to Lois Lane now? What's their relationship? Man that sucks for him. Having super hearing is exactly what would be horrible if your signifciant other was cheating. Very few could pull away from that.

I don't know why they make Wonder Woman untouchable, though. Of the big 3, does anyone seriously read her either? Batman and the Batman family probably make up what percentage of monthly revenue from sales -- 90%? My understanding is Marvel is far more diversified relative to Batman. Batman is subsidizing the entire DC universe -- which makes sense given he's a billionarie anyway.
posted by scunning at 5:26 PM on June 1, 2012


I'm glad they didn't go with "The Pink Lantern".

The old "playing against type" gambit. We were expecting the lavender lantern.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:26 PM on June 1, 2012


The idea of a comic book character having a sexual identity is laughably stupid. Are we supposed to take this seriously?
posted by xmutex at 5:28 PM on June 1, 2012


I just have this vision of Batman opening a hatch in the wall of his cave somewhere and opening up to a rainbowtastic perfectly displayed hallway of a bat suits in every single color. He walks over to the teal one and strokes the tip of an ear and whispers "...soon..."

Funny you should mention that.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:28 PM on June 1, 2012 [12 favorites]


They had an opportunity to Do This Right, and they punted.

That's a valid point of view. I would concede that there is social value to having gay characters in comic books, and if you believe that comics should be pursuing social value and über-conscious of their social impacts, then I get where you're coming from.

Personally, as a reader, I don't really care about the external social aspects. I care much, much more about what happens cover-to-cover (to borrow a phrase from professional wrestling). I want good writing. And from that perspective, the idea that "[character] is gay!" has often been used exactly as "[character] is killed!" in contemporary comics: It's used as a gimmick. It doesn't happen as an organic writing decision; it comes from editorial or higher, and it is intended to get publicity.

There are a few exceptions. I suspect that Marvel's decision to reveal a homosexual relationship between Rictor and Shatterstar was probably more attributable to writers writing than to editors and marketing. But more often, it's not. And hey, if your primary concern is social impact, then that's not a huge problem: Having a gay character as a gimmick is better than having no gay characters at all, which may be the alternative. From a writing and fan's perspective, though, it's tired. I wish they'd stop thinking of ways to grab headlines and stuffing those ideas into storylines ("Kill Superman! Make Green Lantern gay! Reboot the universe!") and instead just write good stories.
posted by cribcage at 5:28 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


The current Wonder Woman is basically a Vertigo series starring a Wonder Woman analog, only the analog is actually the official Wonder Woman. There's good and bad to that - there's certainly stuff in there that there that I might be happier about of it was Ultrarella or something.
posted by Artw at 5:32 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


The idea of a comic book character having a sexual identity is laughably stupid. Are we supposed to take this seriously?

Not quite as stupid as someone believing that gay people don't want to be represented in media.
posted by beaucoupkevin at 5:32 PM on June 1, 2012 [21 favorites]


I just have this vision of Batman opening a hatch in the wall of his cave somewhere and opening up to a rainbowtastic perfectly displayed hallway of a bat suits in every single color. He walks over to the teal one and strokes the tip of an ear and whispers "...soon..."

It's been done.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:33 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]


Also, I tweeted this earlier and it sums up my attitude about this, so here:
"Hey, gang! Green Lantern's gay! No, no, no! Not the one that Ryan Reynolds plays! Why would we do THAT?"
posted by beaucoupkevin at 5:34 PM on June 1, 2012


The idea of a comic book character having a sexual identity is laughably stupid. Are we supposed to take this seriously?
posted by jonmc at 5:34 PM on June 1, 2012


Goddammit, Faint of Butt beat me to the Rainbow Batman
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:34 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Damn.

I meant to answer "Never Read R. Crumb, have you?"
posted by jonmc at 5:35 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


What's next, the undernourished and always complaining little girl, StarvingGirl™?
posted by caclwmr4 at 5:36 PM on June 1, 2012


"Why the walnut costume, Batman?"
"I must, Robin, I must -- a different wooden costume each day of the week, OR I'LL DIE."
posted by Artw at 5:37 PM on June 1, 2012 [4 favorites]


kittens for breakfast -- Is he married to Lois Lane now? What's their relationship?

No, they've never been married; when DC reset their continuity last fall, some characters (like Superman and Wonder Woman) got a hard reboot and started from scratch, whereas others (like Batman and the Hal Jordan Green Lantern) kept on keeping on, more or less, whether that exactly gels with the rest of the DCU or not. This approach works better than you might imagine but does not bear up well to close examination, which I actually think is not that big of a deal as long as the books are good, but I...may not have all that much company in that.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:37 PM on June 1, 2012


Well, at least I didn't come in third.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:37 PM on June 1, 2012


The idea of a comic book character having a sexual identity is laughably stupid. Are we supposed to take this seriously?

Seriously. Where the fuck does this idea that sex or romance or human relationships should be a part of comics? Or of any other kind of narrative media?

"It's pointless for a human to paint scenes of nature when they could just go outside and stand in it." – Ron Swanson
posted by Rory Marinich at 5:38 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


The idea of a comic book character having a sexual identity is laughably stupid. Are we supposed to take this seriously?

Dude, have you read Madame Bovary? I was like, LOL this isn't a chick, it's a book, yo, am I really supposed to think a book can get all horny and shit?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:39 PM on June 1, 2012 [13 favorites]


am I really supposed to think a book can get all horny and shit?

as a bookstore employee, I am now nervous. and strangely aroused.
posted by jonmc at 5:43 PM on June 1, 2012 [5 favorites]


"The idea of a comic book character having a sexual identity is laughably stupid. Are we supposed to take this seriously?"

You mean, a sexual identity outside of heteronormative?
posted by klangklangston at 5:45 PM on June 1, 2012 [8 favorites]


And Robin breathes a sigh of relief.

Yeah.

posted by Nomyte at 5:48 PM on June 1, 2012


Batman Inc. switched him from one stupid costume to another mid-story, and Damien is now a chronological impossibility, but Morrison thankfully was able to continue that story as if nothing had happened.

TBH I think if there is a collective Nu52 aesthetic then the further a title is from it the better, because it is the aesthetic of awfulness, things people who hang out in gaming forums think are cool, and overly serious writing that refuses to acknowledge it's own ridiculousness. If the Nu52 were a movie it would be both of the Matrix sequels.
posted by Artw at 5:48 PM on June 1, 2012 [4 favorites]


Where...does this idea that sex or romance or human relationships should be a part of comics?

Sarcasm aside, xmutex's point does have merit. There are a lot of fans who prefer Spider-Man stories not involving Mary Jane, who think that Lois Lane interludes are a distraction from Superman being a butt-kicking alien, who would rather see Cyclops and Jean Grey interact as teammates rather than lovers.

Romantic themes have always been a part of comics. Generally speaking, they make comic books richer as literature. But some fans don't want rich literature, they want escapism with flying robots and superpowers and aliens. (See e.g., Lobo, or Garth Ennis's Punisher.) It's not invalid to say that romance and human-relationship themes just serve as noise in that context.
posted by cribcage at 5:49 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


The idea of a comic book character having a sexual identity is laughably stupid. Are we supposed to take this seriously?

No, of course not. After all, it's not like kids ever seek role models in the funny books.
posted by Etrigan at 5:59 PM on June 1, 2012


Romantic themes have always been a part of comics. Generally speaking, they make comic books richer as literature. But some fans don't want rich literature, they want escapism with flying robots and superpowers and aliens. (See e.g., Lobo, or Garth Ennis's Punisher.) It's not invalid to say that romance and human-relationship themes just serve as noise in that context.

I would argue that romance is still an important component of these narratives, even if only in its absence; the Punisher does everything he does because his family (including his wife) was killed, let's remember, and while there's tragedy there there's perhaps an element of wish fulfillment: He loses what sounds like a lovely but frankly deeply fucking boring home life and is reincarnated as a remorseless badass with apparently unlimited resources whose entire existence is devoted to killing the shit out of people and driving around in a swanky van. Scratch a Charles Bronson and find a Lester Burnham with a gun and a big old skull on his chest, is all I'm saying here. Being above sex and romance is itself a kind of power fantasy.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:01 PM on June 1, 2012


I just have this vision of Batman opening a hatch in the wall of his cave somewhere and opening up to a rainbowtastic perfectly displayed hallway of a bat suits in every single color. He walks over to the teal one and strokes the tip of an ear and whispers "...soon..."

This is actually canon.
posted by painquale at 6:01 PM on June 1, 2012 [4 favorites]


Ah, just barely beaten to Rainbow Batman. But then there's "Robin, what have I done to you?"
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:03 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


the Punisher does everything he does because his family (including his wife) was killed, let's remember

The reason I singled out Garth Ennis's version is that I don't think this is a key element in that version. To analogize, I think the execution of Frank Castle's family has about as much relevance in Garth Ennis's stories as does the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents in the 1960s television series.

I actually think this line of discussion ultimately spins off into a really interesting derail about origin stories, how the most enduring characters work absent their origins, and an argument that Hollywood should stop filming comic-book origins altogether and just drop Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc. into good stories and let 'em strut...but /end_derail.
posted by cribcage at 6:10 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Rainbow Batman

Well now I guess I know why the idea appeared so clearly in my mind.

Dammit I have too many other things to keep track of. And now MeFi is expecting me to remember all of Batman, too? I am suitably shamed.
posted by Mizu at 6:11 PM on June 1, 2012


kittens for breakfast: not to start a fight, but I think Superman and Lois did marry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_of_Clark_Kent_and_Lois_Lane

"Superman was killed by Doomsday in Superman #75. Then, after a year of mourning, searching and resurrecting, Superman returned to the land of the living and the arms of Lois Lane. But the comics still had to drag their feet as Lois and Clark on the TV series met as strangers when the show debuted and it would take three years for them to make it to the altar. The comics launched into a series of arcs designed to keep the couple apart including a broken engagement arc, but Lois and Clark on the TV series finally married in October 1996 and so did their comic book counterparts."

Here's also a discussion of it:

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/06/17/superman-lois-lane-divorce-mariage/
posted by scunning at 6:18 PM on June 1, 2012


To analogize, I think the execution of Frank Castle's family has about as much relevance in Garth Ennis's stories as does the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents in the 1960s television series.

Maybe for Marvel Knights. Maybe. Certainly not for MAX. Though the nature of the ways Frank is fucked up in the head and the part his family plays in that does change with Ennis.

(For fans of Frank being completely fucked in the head and not all the family man his origin story set him up as the Jason Aaron books are really worthwhile too.)
posted by Artw at 6:24 PM on June 1, 2012


Yeah, scunning, they did in the sense that comics were published in which that happened, but they did not in the sense that the continuity has been rebooted so that in the current comics nothing that happened more than like a year ago is considered canon.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:25 PM on June 1, 2012


Best DC comic of the year: Superman Family Adventures #1
posted by Artw at 6:41 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


"everyone is very afraid to make one of the younger heroes gay"

Not true.

In Avengers Academy (Marvel) there is one gay character, Striker, and one bi character, Lightspeed (originally of Power Pack). Lightspeed has a mutual crush with Karolina Dean, of the Runaways, who is gay.

In DC, Bunker a member of the Teen Titans in the "New 52" (i.e. main continuity, not Earth 2), just came out a few issues ago.
posted by oddman at 6:43 PM on June 1, 2012


Why not Guy Garnder (that guy needs to be made more likeable)? Oliver Queen? Wally West?

Too obvious.

This approach works better than you might imagine but does not bear up well to close examination, which I actually think is not that big of a deal as long as the books are good, but I...may not have all that much company in that.

Trying to figure out why JLA Batman is new to crime-fighting yet Regular Batman has apparently been doing it long enough that his first Robin is now Nightwing kind of gave me an eye twitch. Honestly, I could deal with it (the Scott Snyder Batman run is good!) if not for the fact that it necessarily reminds me that the whole "No, no, the reboot is for new readers!" schpiel is clearly hooey intended to disguise a publicity stunt -- because if that shit doesn't make sense to me, it sure doesn't make sense to all the people DC allegedly wants to pick up the books.

Fuck, there goes my eye again ...
posted by Amanojaku at 6:57 PM on June 1, 2012


kittens: Ohhhh. I totally misread your statement. You were speaking from within continuity, conditional on the reboot. I thought you were saying, under old continuity they had never. Yes, retract my statement. I'm glad I didn't start a fight! That would've both been embarassing because I would've been wrong and embarassing because I'd be getting into a fight about whether Superman had ever married Lois Lane "in real life". Not sure which one of those makes me hate myself more.
posted by scunning at 6:58 PM on June 1, 2012


It just so happens that here in Washington DC, there's a gay bar called The Green Lantern possibly NSFW

COINCIDENCE?!?!
Probably.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 7:11 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]


oddman: To say nothing of Wiccan and Hulkling (Marvel). So adorable!

While we're on the subject: recent pre-reboot DCU series Birds Of Prey and Secret Six, specifically the runs on both by Gail Simone, gave us Savant and Creote as well as Scandal Savage and Knockout. I cared about these characters and relationships far more than I do about an Earth-2 GL (though I'll give the book a chance, I guess, probably).
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:14 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


See, now I read that as Robin breathed a sigh of relief... because Batwoman was a lesbian and therefore no threat to his own "relationship" with Batman.
posted by squasha at 7:18 PM on June 1, 2012


It seems that each of the books has it's own continuity at the moment.

So Aquaman has been around for a while in his book (civilians recognize him, etc.) but is a complete unknown to the other heroes in the Justice League book. Same for Wonder Woman and The Flash. All three have rebooted histories. While Hal Jordan basically has his old origin intact. However, some heroes have an even more complex time-line. Superman in Action Comics didn't even have his uniform (and I think he didn't know he was Kryptonian), but in Superman, he's fully-powered and fully aware of who he is (although not married to Lois), and in the Justice League book, he somewhere in-between the two other books. Batman is equally messed up throughout his books.

It seems that the books are all simultaneously telling stories from different parts of the New 52 timeline. But, if this is the case, this was never communicated to the fans (or I missed it) and it's not at all clear when the disparate books will converge back on a single time-period. They are all depicted as happening "now."

Pallas, absolutely right, I missed those! That Secret Six book was great. The new one is decent, but not yet on the same level in terms of emotional depth.
posted by oddman at 7:23 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


...and Takei is there:

Now that Green Lantern is officially out as a friend of Dorothy's, he'll be changing his name to the more descriptive "Emerald."

I lol'ed.
posted by jquinby at 7:24 PM on June 1, 2012 [2 favorites]


Mizu: Oh, the Robins who could have been gay...

The Robins who could have been gay, tra la,
Dick, Stephanie, Damian, Tim!
They'd fight in a comradely way, tra la,
Get tied up in manner outré, tra la,
And bring cheer to a town that is grim.

But Batman is silent, and Albert grows grey..
How dull is Wayne Manor, with no Robin gay!
Tra la la la la, tra la la la la, the Robins who could have been gay.

(insincere apologies to Gilbert and Sullivan)
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:43 PM on June 1, 2012 [9 favorites]


Northstar sings and dances into your heart
posted by stifford at 8:28 PM on June 1, 2012


It seems that the books are all simultaneously telling stories from different parts of the New 52 timeline. But, if this is the case, this was never communicated to the fans (or I missed it) and it's not at all clear when the disparate books will converge back on a single time-period. They are all depicted as happening "now."

Justice League started out set five years ago, just in time for it;s memebers to have their spectacularly bratty first meetings. It's since jumped ahead to "now".

Action is still set at a point before that.
posted by Artw at 8:34 PM on June 1, 2012


(TBH They probably could have done Action at any time, without the 52 reboot, and it would have been just fine)
posted by Artw at 8:49 PM on June 1, 2012


The problem they had is that the current Hal Jordan has been re-imagined as a complete jackass. If they made him the gay one, then suddenly everyone would be thinking (or complaining that the editors think) that he's a jackass because he's gay.

All of these characters have so much baggage that if you took pretty much any major DC character and said he's gay (either now with the reboot, or finally coming out of the closet having been gay all along), it ends up being very easy to imagine it expressing some negative stereotype about gays. Wonder Woman a lesbian? "Oh, so it's all about straight male fantasy lesbians?" Batman gay? "Oh, because gays are pedophiles?" Martian Manhunter gay? "Because you think all gays are creepy bare-chested leathermen?"

Alan Scott is enough of a blank slate that you don't have that problem.
posted by straight at 9:02 PM on June 1, 2012


Alan Scott woiuld be a jackass too if Johns was writing him. Seriously, the guy only does one character.
posted by Artw at 9:04 PM on June 1, 2012


Hey has anyone posted Rainbow Batma.....

Oh. Here's the story of that issue if anyone cares to know Bruce Wayne's secret!

Personally, I'm annoyed by gay Alan Scott for the same reason I am still annoyed by black Nick Fury.
Change for change's sake.

Of course, I am not annoyed by gay Colossus.

I'm pretty sure Ragdoll and the (female) Question are both gay (if they still exist), and I believe Catman is bi.

There's probably more I'm not thinking of that haven't been listed upthread.

I'm down with the publicity stunt angle to counteract Northstar's wedding.
Because at the new DC the stupidest answer seems to be the most likely.
posted by Mezentian at 9:29 PM on June 1, 2012


But where are all the lesbian superheroes? How come when they finally come out with gay comic characters, they are all male?

I agree with Wonder Woman, and also think Marvel 's Sif would work in the context of the Thor story arc in the new movies.
posted by misha at 10:03 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


black Nick Fury

Which one?
posted by Artw at 10:09 PM on June 1, 2012


Wait! Agent Coulson's nickname is CHEESE?
This changes EVERYTHING!

(I had no idea Black Nick Fury was actually in the 616 universe. I recant my statement then. Although if he actually calls himself Nick Fury Jr in the comics I will weep openly).
posted by Mezentian at 10:22 PM on June 1, 2012


black Nick Fury

Which one?


Huh. I didn't read Battle Scars because I thought it was an out-of-continuity movie tie-in, but that actually sounds like a great way to introduce the more popular version of the character in the main line without a really awkward "oh also somehow 616 Nick Fury is black now" storyline, because of course O. G. Nick Fury has a bunch of grown kids out there with crazy secret agent skills, that character in the 60s was basically an American Lazenby Bond wrapped in black leather and served in a bath of LSD, testosterone and Brut.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:56 PM on June 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


Actually, you know what? I would read the hell out of a story where gruff old man superspy Nick Fury came out of the closet.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:02 PM on June 1, 2012 [4 favorites]


I should really stop reading online commentary about comics. So many supposed fans are so bound and determined to be cynical about every. fucking. thing. It sucks all the joy out of the hobby.

Anyway. I was cheerleading for DC to have Tim Drake (Robin III) finally come out of the closet. His characterization has always been interesting when it comes to sexuality -- he's constantly turning down offers of sex from female characters, and his close friendship with Superboy has launched a thousand slash stories. Personally, I think his long-running solo series can easily be read as an extended metaphor for a coming out story.

I'm not disappointed that it's 'only' Alan Scott that is being relaunched as queer, though. Tim can get there eventually :) Anyone who is a DC fan knows who the character is -- he's not an A-lister, but he's far from a minor role in the 'DC universe'. DC has given the new 'Earth 2' line a strong marketing push, and the first issue was very strong (much better than the Justice League relaunch IMO). Hopefully progressive comics fans will show their support, and DC will continue to build the diversity of their line.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 11:59 PM on June 1, 2012 [3 favorites]


Actually, one of the hottest things I've ever seen was in Ultimate X-Men where Northstar, recouping in a hospital bed mumbles something about Colossus being cute.

Colossus, totally out of his control, turns metal.

Fucking hot, that.
posted by PapaLobo at 12:21 AM on June 2, 2012 [2 favorites]


All of these characters have so much baggage that if you took pretty much any major DC character and said he's gay...it ends up being very easy to imagine it expressing some negative stereotype about gays. Wonder Woman a lesbian? "Oh, so it's all about straight male fantasy lesbians?" Batman gay? "Oh, because gays are pedophiles?" Martian Manhunter gay? "Because you think all gays are creepy bare-chested leathermen?"

That's an interesting point, and I would agree. But I'd also wonder to what extent those conversations actually happen, at an executive level, versus to what extent is the conversation always focused on a mid-card character from the outset because the purpose of the exercise is to make a splash without rocking the boat.
posted by cribcage at 12:35 AM on June 2, 2012


Er, you guys know this came out of Janes Robinson's character decision that he made when writing his comic and at no point did someone go down a list debating the pros and cons of gayifing each one, right?
posted by Artw at 12:44 AM on June 2, 2012 [1 favorite]


I should really stop reading online commentary about comics. So many supposed fans are so bound and determined to be cynical about every. fucking. thing. It sucks all the joy out of the hobby.

I'm going to take this as a request for more posts raving about how great Jack Kirby is.
posted by Artw at 12:47 AM on June 2, 2012 [1 favorite]


Robinson may say that, but I'm not buying it.

I'm going to take this as a request for more posts raving about how great Jack Kirby is.

He's the King. Hail unto him.
posted by Mezentian at 1:18 AM on June 2, 2012


and I believe Catman is bi. Did you really mean Catman (A character I didn't even know existed) or did you mistype Catwoman?

Either way, yeah, I can see them both as bi.
posted by ymgve at 3:43 AM on June 2, 2012 [1 favorite]


I did not mistype.
Catman is a righteous dude.

After the cancellation of the series in August 2011, Gail Simone revealed on her Tumblr that Catman is in fact bisexual, and that she had planned to reveal this in a story arc that was cut short by the September 2011 DC relaunch.[4] Simone has also said that she plans to make this canon the next time she writes Catman in a book.[5]

I read some of Secret Six and Villains United and they were both pretty excellent books.

Gail Simone gets a lot of recommendations, so I may need to seek her stuff out.
posted by Mezentian at 3:54 AM on June 2, 2012


I don't read this as burying the gay character so much as using the gay character to drum up interest in a new title and a classic golden age character. A few people here complained that they never heard of Scott before. Well, now you have, right? That was sort of the point, I think.

So DC adds another gay character to the pantheon, kids get a role model, and maybe Earth 2 is able to ride the media bump from this to real success and make DC some money. I don't see the problem here.

There is literally no way they were going to make Bruce or Clark or Hal or any of the A-listers suddenly gay. Making someone like Power Girl gay risks making them look like they're just drumming up more juvenile spank-bank material, plus they already have a high-profile lesbian character, and a damn good one too. Scott's not a bad choice.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:56 AM on June 2, 2012 [1 favorite]


and maybe Earth 2 is able to ride the media bump from this to real success

Or it gets forgotten.
Short term gain.
posted by Mezentian at 6:23 AM on June 2, 2012


If enough people had guessed it would be Alan Scott, DC would have quickly and clumsily changed the gay character to Hawk.
posted by Legomancer at 6:34 AM on June 2, 2012 [3 favorites]


Also, here's an alternate revelation.
posted by Legomancer at 7:07 AM on June 2, 2012 [1 favorite]


If enough people had guessed it would be Alan Scott, DC would have quickly and clumsily changed the gay character to Hawk.

I very much doubt that would be possible given the lead times.
posted by Artw at 7:36 AM on June 2, 2012


If enough people had guessed it would be Alan Scott, DC would have quickly and clumsily changed the gay character to Hawk.

Alan Scott was the most popular guess.
Make of that what you will.

But +1 for your sly DC history reference.
posted by Mezentian at 7:39 AM on June 2, 2012


Ooh, I don't get the reference. Would anyone care to explain it?
posted by IAmUnaware at 8:07 AM on June 2, 2012


"Actually, you know what? I would read the hell out of a story where gruff old man superspy Nick Fury came out of the closet."

It's called the Venture Brothers, and you don't even have to read it.
posted by klangklangston at 8:20 AM on June 2, 2012 [2 favorites]


Nah, Colonel Gathers was straight and had a MTF transition as part of a long game to infiltrate Molotov's Black Hearts, before having the reversible parts of the operation reversed.

I think it would be cool to have a gay Nick Fury because I can't see his whole gruff two-fisted black ops changing at all in the end - I mean, it's pretty much all he's used for, the guy with all of Captain America's "greatest generation" cred and gumption who can be underhanded and get his hands dirty where Cap can't (not to mention his key spot in the "badass" well Marvel always goes to). There would be something really compelling there under the pen of a good writer, with all of the "coming out late in life after building this super serious reputation on the back of Commie fightin'" stuff, but eventually it would just be "oh, yeah, that badass superspy from WWII is gay, so what?" and we could do with those kinds of things to counter the heteronormative stuff.

It would work well with Wolverine, too, but I think Marvel would want to go to the Logan/Jean/Scott triangle again eventually. Although, honestly? That tired old trope would be way more entertaining if Logan and Scott developed affections and Jean got left out in the cold, if played respectfully and not slashfic-y. The Logan and Scott tension has always played a little bit like schoolyard hair pulling.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:51 AM on June 2, 2012


Just as Dumbledore is officially gay even though that didn't appear in the books anywhere, Devin Grayson's Nightwing was officially behind-the-scenes bisexual.
posted by Acheman at 10:26 AM on June 2, 2012


Logan/Jean/Scott triangle

Polyamorous triad.
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on June 2, 2012 [2 favorites]


It would work well with Wolverine, too, but I think Marvel would want to go to the Logan/Jean/Scott triangle again eventually.

Forget that triangle. Wolverine is often written as feral James Bond with claws, which usually involves the death/torture/conversion of a different woman each story arc to rationalize the gory conclusions.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:29 AM on June 2, 2012


Wolverine is often written as feral James Bond with claws, which usually involves the death/torture/conversion of a different woman each story arc to rationalize the gory conclusions.

Oh, for sure, and not just Wolverine but any of the myriad "adult" titles (where "adult" = a 12 year old's idea of a gritty badass) are rife with fridged women who only exist to motivate the male lead. Even otherwise great writers tend to do it. But hey, we also publish a couple of books with female leads so sexism solved!

Luckily, it is slowly getting better. I'm pretty psyched for Kelly Sue DeConnick's new Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) series, and that feels like something that wouldn't have existed a few years ago.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:03 AM on June 2, 2012


I think it would be cool to have a gay Nick Fury because I can't see his whole gruff two-fisted black ops changing at all in the end - I mean, it's pretty much all he's used for, the guy with all of Captain America's "greatest generation" cred and gumption who can be underhanded and get his hands dirty where Cap can't (not to mention his key spot in the "badass" well Marvel always goes to). There would be something really compelling there under the pen of a good writer, with all of the "coming out late in life after building this super serious reputation on the back of Commie fightin'" stuff, but eventually it would just be "oh, yeah, that badass superspy from WWII is gay, so what?" and we could do with those kinds of things to counter the heteronormative stuff.

This reminds me of a guy I met on a cruise last year. He had just retired from a long career in the army -- had served in Vietnam, and ultimately worked at the Pentagon. He came out after having married & having kids, and settled down with a guy in a 20+ year relationship that I gather was an open secret in his military career. He was also black. From now on, I'm gonna think of him as Nick Fury.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 11:04 AM on June 2, 2012 [1 favorite]


Ooh, I don't get the reference. Would anyone care to explain it?
Armageddon 2001 is generally disliked by readers for what has been described as the dishonesty of its resolution. The frame story had been presented as a mystery - which superhero would go insane, kill all other heroes, and take over the world, and why? - and clues were provided. However, at some point during the mini series the future-culprit's identity was leaked. Captain Atom would be the one who became Monarch. The conclusion of the Annual for Justice League Europe, the final crossover issue before the conclusion of the story, seemed to confirm this leak. Waverider had seen the futures of various Justice League Europe members but had not scanned Captain Atom, who was away at the time. The final panel of the issue showed Waverider about to touch Captain Atom, who had just returned, and a text box stated that the story would be concluded in the second issue of Armageddon 2001.[5]

In response to the leak, the surprise ending was changed at the last minute: Monarch was revealed to be, not Captain Atom, but rather Hawk.
Armageddon 2001
posted by Legomancer at 2:02 PM on June 2, 2012 [3 favorites]


I just have this vision of Batman opening a hatch in the wall of his cave somewhere and opening up to a rainbowtastic perfectly displayed hallway of a bat suits in every single color. He walks over to the teal one and strokes the tip of an ear and whispers "...soon..."

You know, DC were so proud of that "Rainbow Batman" tale that they reran it again about a decade later, in an 80-Page Giant collection promoting "The Strange Lives of Batman and Robin." Poor old Dr. Wertham must've thought, "I told you so!"
posted by NetizenKen at 5:10 PM on June 2, 2012


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