The problem with these welfare states is the potential for abuse. You're seeing it everywhere. Greece, Italy, France, the UK. Do you remember that story from business school, about the daycare? It's a lot like that.posted by nickrussell at 5:40 AM on June 5, 2012 [25 favorites]The story from business school, about the daycare, is from Freakonomics I believe. Basically, a daycare had a set of chronically-late pick-ups after hours. They imposed a penalty 'fine' of $10ish for parents who came after 18:00. Initially, there was a drop in late pick-ups, and then a subsequent explosion in late pick-ups. Further, the 'lateness' increased substantially. Reason being that what was a 'fine' became a 'fee'; in essence the $10ish amount became the fee parents paid of a type of 'extended hours' to the daycare. Previously, at least they had an emotional reaction – parents felt bad for violating the hours – whereas after paying the fee, they had clean consciences. Thus, there was no longer 'lateness', there were two sets of fees. The standard fees and the 'extended hours' fees. In essence, the 'fine' was too low to change behaviour. I recall the point being made that if the fee was $100, there would have been a much different result.The difference with the parents in that case was paying the ten bucks allowed them, basically, to act however they wanted. They could control the lives of the daycare workers in exchange for a paltry sum. If you recall, many of the parents actually became much later, from 630 or 7 to, like, 9 or 10.
It's the same thing with these social democracies and their welfare states. At least in the US, more things are priced. You may not like the price, but at least it's there. In the UK, what they've done is said essentially 'if you're on welfare, you're a slave'. They put onerous conditions attached to state aid of most types, and they essentially have a subjugated workforce. Then the body politic doesn't really care, because they're paying high taxes, partially in support of the welfare state. So then, nobody really cares when people speak out about the Job Centre or how welfare is being administered, because in their mind, these people are getting their money – free money – so what do they really have to complain about?
It's exactly like the daycare, Nickrussell. When the taxpayers in Europe pay their tax, they lose the emotional responsibility to the underclasses. They've paid, and that's it. At least in the US, people are honest about things. The government's not going to take care of you. You have to take care of yourself. When bad things happen and you need help, the community needs to take care of you, otherwise, you will become homeless and potentially ill. There is a moral obligation to take care of other people. Not everywhere, not everybody, but in general, the lack of a welfare state in the US means that people generally take better care of each other.
In the UK, for example, when you sign up for assistance, you lose all control over what that assistance is. The government promises that you will have assistance, but not of any specific quality levels. When the government gives you a job, they can change the wages of that job, it's specification, it's location, and there's nothing you can do about it. At least with a company, you have a binding contract in terms of specific conditions. Not with the welfare state.
It's a perverse incentive structure. In some cases, the welfare states are great. They've really been good for everyone. But with the new normal, they're cutting corners wherever they can and a lot of people who depend on the welfare state are finding it to be a bargain with the devil. And the rest of the taxpayers have no moral obligation to change things or even care; they've done their part. The outlook for people on welfare is not good in Europe, for the taxpayers will simply ask that they do more and more for less and less; and what can the people on welfare say? It is indeed a kind of slavery, like the US prison population.
In the US, since there is a greater moral agenda, when someone violates the moral code, they go to jail. In your country, nobody cares much what happens to somebody once they go to jail, for the prisoner signed up for it, in essence. Jail conditions bad? Well, we're paying for you to learn your lesson, so sit and learn it. They're making you work for no pay? Well, you should have thought about that.
That's what the European welfare state is in danger of becoming. There's too many people out of proper work and going on state support. The budgets will shrink as the welfare state expands, because there's fewer taxpayers, yeah? More people, smaller budget. What happens to the aid each person receives, it shrinks. They will be doing more dictated work for less money. If the money they do receive simply goes to subsidised housing and food programmes, what are you left with? Slaves, of a sort, yeah?
At 2300 Saturday 2nd of June 2012, a coachload of Tired, untrained and ill equipped people left Bristol by coach for London and the Queens Jubilee.How much would you like to bet that those Olympic stewarding jobs will also turn out to be unpaid or non-existent?
At around 0240 they were dropped off by the side of a road with their Baggage and Tents and left stood for more than an hour along with 80 other people.
Having Had no sleep at 0415 these people were told that at 0500 they would be starting a 16 hour shift.
...snip...
All those people have been promised Proper paid work at the Olympic Games with pay of up to £9000 for doing it.
At 0900 Sunday morning they had been given a paper bag with a Sandwich, Muffin and packet of crisps in and told ” dont eat that now its your lunch”. A paper bag, in heavy rain, 3 hours before lunchtime with no way of keeping it dry.
One of them had been refused use of toilet facilities and hadnt been able to P for almost 24 hours, she had been forced to change into ” uniform” for the event in the open as there were no changing facilities with other male staff refusing to give her privacy, ” I had to change next to a van in public and a bloody red bus stopped almost right in front of me”.This seems to contradict CPuk's claim that the money had been spent on training, potentially putting attendees at risk:
It is a shame however that contrary to Close Protection uk statement that training had been completed, I know that some staff had not yet been trained in First Aid ( a requirement) or taught how to safely restrain people without causing injury ( a requirement).posted by axon at 5:51 AM on June 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
A 30-year-old steward told the Guardian that the conditions under the bridge were "cold and wet and we were told to get our head down [to sleep]". He said that it was impossible to pitch a tent because of the concrete floor.From other quotes in the story, they only had a couple of hours between arriving and starting work; I doubt I'd bother to sleep for that period. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure one can erect most modern self-supporting frame tents on hard ground -- or else how could they be shown in hiking shops?
I'd also be interested to find a media source other than the Guardian that is reporting this story (not that I dispute what the Guardian has reported).I'd be surprised if anyone else picks up this story, I can't imagine any of the other British newspapers (other than the Independent) caring enough.
Some things do give me pause, such as the absence of toilet breaks, but a lot of the gripes just seem to be Hard Reality.I imagine the Hard Reality you're so gung-ho about is probably something you don't have to endure as part of your regular work life.
There is a moral obligation to take care of other people. Not everywhere, not everybody, but in general, the lack of a welfare state in the US means that people generally take better care of each other....is not formulated as an opinion at all. It seems to me that the takeaway from the Drug War is that this is very much an incorrect statement.
How do they want the interface between the welfare state and private industry to work?Its pretty straightforward: we expect private industry to pay a basic, living wage in exchange for people's labour. Its really not so mysterious, how did it possibly escape you?
Speaking about those who were unpaid, Prince said: "The only ones that won't be paid are because they don't want to be paid. They want to do this voluntarily, [to] get the work experience." This was because they would no longer be able to claim jobseeker benefits if they accepted a wage for the work, she said."Working for nothing" is a strong statement. These people, if we take this statement as true, were not doing that. How else do we arrange work experience in the private sector for long-term unemployed -- I would be interested in a genuine answer. It seems some others would prefer that all work experience were organised in the public sector....
Both stewards said they were originally told they would be paid. But when they got to the coach on Saturday night, they said, they were told that the work would be unpaid and that if they did not accept it they would not be considered for well-paid work at the Olympics.posted by axon at 6:51 AM on June 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
Both stewards said they were originally told they would be paid. But when they got to the coach on Saturday night, they said, they were told that the work would be unpaid and that if they did not accept it they would not be considered for well-paid work at the Olympics.posted by Abiezer at 6:51 AM on June 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Daphne1And Molly Prince, who runs Close Protection UK replied in the Eddie Gillard post (though she's basically either uninformed or lying):
5 June 2012 10:12AM
My child is part of this farce up there, but is so desperate for a job they have stuck it out. They have been on the phone in tears, saying they are soaking wet, bleeding feet and sleeping in a wet muddy field with barely any facilities. I have said for gods sake come home but if they did it would be the end of the course and no SIA badge, I feel murderous, they are still there with one more night to do. Lets not forget that we as parents had to provide the tent and all the camping gear, not cheap
Molly Prince says : June 5, 2012 at 6:36 amposted by Grangousier at 7:06 AM on June 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
I am happy to answer your questions! But first I will cover some back ground information for your story to ensure accuracy of reporting. Firstly We are absolutely un aware of any staff being forced to attend the event and are extremely un happy if this is the case. There is no unpaid labour, everyone in training is being paid apprenticeship rate, whilst this is not a great amount, but it is the national recognised training rate of pay set by government. It was agreed that the sponsoring of licenses, purchasing of kit needed to work, boots, combats etc that individuals would normally purchase themselves would benefit them more. The majority of people who worked the event enjoyed the experience and are looking forward to the Olympics! We are not in the business of exploiting anyone
My Company – Close Protection UK Limited is an SIA Approved Contractor and has Investors in People accreditation, we take the welfare of our staff and Apprentices very seriously in deed. Our relationship with Tomorrows People is such that they referred a number of unemployed individuals in Bristol and Plymouth, whilst we were recruiting in readiness for this year’s Olympics. The Staff travelling to The Jubilee are completing their training and being assessed on the Job for NVQ Level 2 in Spectator Safety after having completed all the knowledge requirements in the classroom and some previous work experience. It is essential that they are assessed in a live work environment in order to complete their chosen qualifications.
The nature of Festival & Event work is such that we often travel sleeping on coaches through the night with an early morning pre-event start, it is the nature of the business and there is misconception about this, it’s hard work and not for the faint hearted. We had staff travel from several locations and some arrived earlier than others at the meeting point which I believe was London Bridge, I will investigate why they got off the coach before the others arrived, as it would have seemed more sensible to stay on the coach.This is an unfortunate set of circumstances but not lack of care on the part of CPUK.
CPUK Have not only purchased tents for everyone (Some stewards wanted to use their own but it was too wet to put them up, they insinsted in having a go! )CPUK Director had organised a warm dry communial area for all to sleep)and all other camping facilities, we have put all staff through Btec Level 2 Door Supervision, applied and paid for SIA Licenses at £255 each, purchased Magnum boots circa £70 each, Combat Pants and Polo Shirts circa £50 per set, HI VIS & PPE etc., so our financial investment is extensive. The Jubilee Job will run at an extensive loss, and if you take a look at our published accounts you will see the company ran at a loss last year due to our investment in giving apprentices work placement opportunities which we could not charge our clients for!
The Legacy of all this being, we have built a workforce highly trained weekly over several months and ready to deliver excellent security and event safety services. And as Danny commented earlier even if we are not in a position to offer full time and permanent employment to all these individuals, they will be SIA Licensed, experienced and employable. They will be called upon by CPUK as needed every year for the festival season, so in short we feel very strongly that we have done our bit, to help with making people more employable by offering good quality training, resources and the final bit being work experience whilst being supervised by our extensively experienced supervisors, tutors and assessors.
Should you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me directly,
Kind Regards,
Molly Prince
Managing Director
Close Protection UK Limited
Instead, why not look at what was done successfully almost a hundred years ago? There are several successful models that were developed in FDR's administration - why not look there? If you are already tax-subsidising labor for the unemployed, why not employ them for the public good where they don't even compete with the private sector?You're right, we know there are models that not only work, but treat people with justice and dignity. But capital runs the show, and capital will always prioritize private advantage over public good.
WARNING: STRONG LANGUAGE AHEAD -- I'm no longer a Wisconsinite. I give up on this shitty state. It can go fuck itself. At least I"m not as disappointed as the 2004 re-election of Bush. I'm immune to that sort of depression anymore. This country is fucked and we are fucked and capitalism is shit and you can go suck goldman-sachs cock if you love money over humanity that much. I hear there's a lovely golden bull on Wall Street that Jehovah would love to smite if he wasn't so busy laughing at your pathetic asses as you continue to say you love your fellow humans while you shit all over them pushing them down and then mocking them as you do so like the big fucking god-bully that you are. Wisconsin is a shithole, the United States is a shithole and the world is a shithole and until people wake up and realize that this whole rotten system is murdering them everyday, well. Humanity gets what it deserves and if it's so goddamned shortsighted and foolish to believe that short term greed is better than long term mutuality then it will burn itself to the ground. /endrantposted by symbioid at 10:57 PM on June 5, 2012
axon: "No, IAmABroom, I'm clearly saying that you would have felt very cold on the Queen's pageant wearing just a shirt and a light plastic poncho down by the Thames, especially at 4am when their shift started. I don't understand which comment you think you were reading.The one in which you suggested that people going to work in the cold without any protection from the cold is a reasonable thing to do.
Seriously, this is ridiculous.I addressed the issue of the false pretences above; you are falsely putting words in my mouth, I didn't address it at all in the quote you're referring to.
Not it isn't. What is ridiculous is that you don't seem to mind at all these people were lured on false pretence of paid employment, only to be threatened into working a gruelling, unpaid, 14+ hour shift while the company/charity that hired them did the very bare minimum to look after them and kept them in what I can only describe as inhuman and possibly illegal conditions.
You're mock outrage over the issue of the poncho only serves to highlight the callous disregard you have for these people. Get some fucking perspective, you sound completely inhuman."Your", please.
SLU: Standard Labor-value Unit; the monetary unit of the Gaean Reach, defined as the value of an hour of unskilled labor under standard conditions. The unit supersedes all other monetary bases, in that it derives from the single invariable commodity of the human universe: toil.posted by y2karl at 12:57 PM on June 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
The Domains of Koryphon
The one in which you suggested that people going to work in the cold without any protection from the cold is a reasonable thing to do.To repeat, because you don't appear capable of reading basic English: I'm clearly saying that you would have felt very cold on the Queen's pageant wearing just a shirt and a light plastic poncho down by the Thames, especially at 4am when their shift started.
You see, this is complicated, because it occurs in the real world, not the nice black-and-white world of your pretty ideals. I'm just not sure that the story isn't exaggerated; I dislike it when journalists do that.I don't understand how the version of the events in the article are any more black-and-white than yours, just because you choose to selectively disbelieve parts of it based on nothing more than your reckon. Do you have any actual evidence that contradicts the article? Or is your inability to believe reports in broadsheet newspapers simply informed by your unpleasant, black-and-white world view and nasty ideals?
: June 5, 2012 at 10:20 pmAlso floating around are what purport to be testimonials from happy sla... volunteers:
I received “training” from CP UK a few years ago.
Let me start by saying the
Company is a joke! I Enrolled on a close protection (CP) course as unfortunately the SIA do not deem the Royal Military Police Close Protection unit; where I qualified as worthy of there qualification yet the foreign and commonwealth office were quite happy for me to deploy to various embassy’s around the world. Anyway to gain my civilian SIA badge I had to attend an SIA recognised training programme for a 3-4 day course paid for by the MoD.
I arrived at a tired out former shop on a back street in Hindley Wigan First impression was not a good one and I thought things can only get better!!
I was ushered to a small make shift class room on the first floor to be greeted by the instructor (more about them later) who introduced himself as a right hard tw@t (no joke)! Also in the class
room were other students who had paid upwards of £2000 for a full CP course lasting in the region of 2 weeks. There was a pretty even split in the room half were pumped up tough guys bored of working the doors and the other half job seekers on some kind of a grant paid by the government.
My course began by the instructor asking my previous qualification (which made him look silly) before sending me out with four other students to teach them how to do a reconnaissance visit. Not correct me if I am wrong but surely that was his job!!
Each venue I visited were aware of the company. One such venue was the Lowry hotel in Manchester. I spoke with the head of security t the hotel who was well are of the company and Molly Prince. In his words he told me “you seem like a nice fella who knows the job, if I were you I would get the hell away from that company and if Molly Prince turns up here with here doormen again pushing our customers out of lifts etc I will bar the company from using this hotel for good!!
And so this went on…
On the final day Prince ordered a range rover be hired as she would be a VIP for the evening while the students were put through the paces and tested. She was driven around Manchester with a friend and a team of body guards (students/doormen). She shopped in the town centre before being driven back to the 5* Lowry where she changed.
Her and her friend were then taken back in to Manchester where she went on the p!ss until the small hours before being driven back.
That was the final test for the students CPUK now sanctioned them as CP operators worthy of an SIA badge! Better still Prince enjoyed a night out costing thousands all paid for by the students fees!!
I honestly can’t believe this outfit is still running, and am even more shocked they are contemplating allowing them to provide staff for the Olympics.
What a joke !!!
Robert Cooke, 30, from Plymouth:Which I'm sure we all find astoundingly convincing.
“Organisers found somewhere for us to shelter, and said that if any of us wanted to get into our sleeping bags to keep warm, then we could. Most of us just stayed up chatting. It was a good laugh, and we had access to the portable loos the whole time. They have paid for all the training for my licence and an NVQ in crowd safety. They gave us boots worth £80, and a uniform. We worked out that what they’ve spent is the equivalent of us being paid £45 an hour.”
Kirsty Nicholls, 23, also from Plymouth:
“I would like to thank CPUK for the amazing experience I was a part of this weekend. I am extremely grateful for this opportunity. We were treated with the utmost respect and highly praised for the work we had done. I personally volunteered to do all three days work as I found the experience incredibly pleasurable. I look forward to a long career with CPUK.”
Markus Hanks, another volunteer, said:
“Thanks for a great time at the Diamond Jubilee. Brilliant company to work for, great staff, brilliant atmosphere between everyone, looking forward to working with Close Protection UK again at the London 2012 Olympics. I’m supporting you and the Close Protection UK 110%.”
"I said I'd only do work experience if there were vacancies at the end," he said. "But at every point Seetec were like, 'They employ people all the time.' And as soon as I went into Argos, the people there said: 'There are no jobs at the end of this.'" He said he tried to leave the placement, but was told that if he did, his benefit would be stopped.posted by Abiezer at 7:58 PM on June 9, 2012 [2 favorites]
In his first week, he worked for 30 hours ("10 hours more than anyone who was getting paid to work there"), before contacting Seetec and discovering he was only meant to put in 16. "I was doing the bit where you get the item from the warehouse and put it on the shelf, for [the customer] to collect it," he said. When he arrived, he was one of four people on jobseekers' allowance doing supposed work experience; three weeks later, there were six such people, working a variety of shifts, out of a workforce of between 15 and 20.
One man sent to Argos by Jobcentre Plus, he said, had been working unpaid for 30 hours a week in a six-week placement. "No one who was paid was getting overtime any more," he said. "Everyone was being cut down to four-hour shifts. A guy who worked there told me that. The staff were very demoralised that we were taking up so much potential shift work."
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posted by axon at 4:41 AM on June 5, 2012 [3 favorites]