Comments on: There won't be a "next Monica Seles"

There won't be a "next Monica Seles"

vidur — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:10:10 -0800

"It's time for us to drive excessive grunting out of the game [of Tennis] for future generations," WTA chairman and chief executive Stacey Allaster said. Sexist? Or not?

By: griphus

griphus — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:16:16 -0800

The WTA, which likens its approach to that of the Major League Baseball's gradual phase-out of chewing tobacco... Will they also be retiring Grunty Llama? I mean, talk about your transparent attempts to market grunting to kids.

By: pwally

pwally — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:19:24 -0800

holy shit I just read an entire article about grunting.

By: nadawi

nadawi — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:19:49 -0800

absolutely sexist. there are prominent male grunters that never seem to make this conversation.

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:22:41 -0800

Why is it even a problem? Who cares if they grunt?

By: KokuRyu

KokuRyu — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:27:00 -0800

Why is it even a problem? Who cares if they grunt? I think some players have admitted using grunts to throw off their opponents.

By: Etrigan

Etrigan — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:27:14 -0800

Why is it even a problem? Who cares if they grunt? Same reason anything is a problem to a professional sports league -- they're afraid it's turning off the money tap. If people feel that female tennis players ought not grunt, and stop watching/buying tickets/patronizing sponsors, then clearly (in the minds of the people who run the tour), grunting is a problem. There's also some nod to it being contrary to the genteel history of the game, but really, it's the money.

By: KokuRyu

KokuRyu — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:29:07 -0800

This video shows Stacey Allaster in a better light.

By: Wataki

Wataki — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:29:52 -0800

Ugh!

By: CarlRossi

CarlRossi — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:29:56 -0800

But if they ban the grunting, then there's no reason to watch.

By: facetious

facetious — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:32:15 -0800

"grunt" is one of the few words in the english language that gives me a visceral squick reaction. *shudder*

By: furiousxgeorge

furiousxgeorge — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:32:50 -0800

I do find it loud and irritating, like a vuvuzela, I don't care if it offends you but I can't listen to this. Adjust the mics or something though if it is an actual performance boost, I want to watch the best play possible. I don't know enough about the sport but it seems like many top women do grunt so maybe there is something to it. OTOH...we do live in a world of Major League pitchers swearing by +5 Amulets of Baseball Enhancement.

By: Pyry

Pyry — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:34:32 -0800

I guess all that... shouting is making people nervous.

By: fredludd

fredludd — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:38:52 -0800

I'm sure we can all agree that the grunting is not very ladylike.

By: TwelveTwo

TwelveTwo — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:42:11 -0800

This cannot be real.

By: kersplunk

kersplunk — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:42:48 -0800

"grunt" is one of the few words in the english language that gives me a visceral squick reaction. *shudder* ointment

By: Bwithh

Bwithh — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:44:01 -0800

Strong words from Navratilova, NYT 2009: The all-time great Martina Navratilova has complained, however. Without mentioning Larcher de Brito, Navratilova used a speech at the I.T.F.'s champions dinner during the French Open to call for a crackdown. "The grunting has reached an unacceptable level," Navratilova said. "It is cheating, pure and simple. It is time for something to be done."

By: darkstar

darkstar — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:44:43 -0800

Many gyms ban grunting dudes, too. I had to stop going to one gym because of all the grunting, hot, muscly dudes that...er...*ahem*... Okay, that wasn't really the reason I stopped going to the gym, but still.

By: No-sword

No-sword — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:44:51 -0800

This move would also disadvantage time-travelling cave-persons. Zog call them out on Sapientonormativity.

By: Knigel

Knigel — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:47:06 -0800

All of their running around also bothers me. Why can't they sit calmly?

By: Deflagro

Deflagro — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:47:31 -0800

Once a local radio stations ran a game for some tennis tickets where they would play a sound clip and the caller had to guess if it was a tennis player grunting or a pornstar. It was all tennis players.

By: mazola

mazola — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:52:20 -0800

I agree that we should eliminate excessive grunting from the game. When we reach 'excessive' I'll let you know. Play on!

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:53:37 -0800

My friend's mom had this awesome noise she made when she hit the shuttlecock in badminton, she went "tuuushh!" As far as I can tell, making this noise is the main reason to play badminton. This was in like 1982, ahead of her time Ben's mom, a real trailblazer.

By: Pruitt-Igoe

Pruitt-Igoe — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:57:11 -0800

moist ointment?

By: dhartung

dhartung — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:57:30 -0800

Clearly, the WTA ... is disgruntled.

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:58:06 -0800

What they're doing isn't grunting, it's some sort of hybrid primal scream and karate power focus. It's really unsettling, but I'm not up for legislating it out of the game.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:58:34 -0800

From here on out, they'll only be allowed to yell, "Kiiiiiiiiyaih!"

By: basicchannel

basicchannel — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:01:35 -0800

A lot of pearl clutching at perceived sexism here. These are not grunts. These are shouts. When it was just grunts it was a little annoying, but they were very brief. Now that they shout for so long it bleeds into their opponent's return. It's ridiculous. Also, this is not something that should only be applied to women. Any shouting by any gender should be penalized somehow. It just so happens to be most prevalent in women's tennis.

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:08:43 -0800

"grunt" is one of the few words in the english language that gives me a visceral squick reaction. *shudder* Ever since we saw the documentary "Tabloid" and heard Joyce McKinney describe inserting secret messages into her vagina and anus while in police custody and then later "pushing" and "grunting" them out so she could slip them to the press, my friends and I have adopted the word as a helpful body-cavity euphemism. So, on one side you've got your fronty, and on the other your grunty. You'd best not ever mix them up, hunty.

By: stoneandstar

stoneandstar — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:09:02 -0800

a superficial, ear-splitting tactic used for a variety or reasons (to focus, control breathing, disguise the sound of the ball) ... besides maybe that last reason, the first two sound like kind of a good idea? And sorry, idgaf about "ear-splitting," that is a dumb woman-specific criticism that I hear about pretty much any scenario where women use their voices. Screechy, ear-splitting women and their harpy screaming, not to mention when they sing. (Also, not a big tennis fan, but I've heard the screaming/grunting and just don't find it that annoying. Is it actually possible to turn down the mics? Seems like that would be a good solution. Though not one that seems to actually be on the table.) I'm not sure I find this to be cut-and-dried "sexism," because I can vaguely think of scenarios where seemingly deliberately disruptive shit by male athletes has been called out. I am at a loss to recollect specifics, though. I find the comparisons to pornstars pretty depressing but inevitable in this world. Sometimes I wonder if pornstars do so much vocalization because 1) it's appealing to the audience but also because 2) it helps them focus and tolerate whatever strenuous physical activity they're selling to the camera. It often looks like it could be pretty punishing from a performance standpoint. I doubt doubt from my own athletic/... athletic experiences that vocalization helps focus. A lot of pearl clutching at perceived sexism here. These are not grunts. These are shouts. When it was just grunts it was a little annoying, but they were very brief. Now that they shout for so long it bleeds into their opponent's return. It's ridiculous. I think the sexism lies in the fact that this is seemingly a reaction to fan/media criticism (according to the first article), and fans can decide that screaming women are distasteful and therefore change the rules of the sport. Reads as kind of icky to me. There's nothing inherently wrong with grunting/screaming/yelling/roaring/whatever. Value judgements are being made, and not necessarily about how they affect the game itself. Also, I love that baseball amulet superstition, it is just so hilarious to me.

By: stoneandstar

stoneandstar — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:11:07 -0800

*don't doubt

By: vidur

vidur — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:14:11 -0800

By: MCMikeNamara

MCMikeNamara — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:14:14 -0800

That reminds me, my new band "Moist Ointment Grunt Panties" is playing a show this weekend. Also, I think this is sexist; even if women grunting is louder or more distracting (an argument I'd agree with), applying the rule evenly is just the type of "do it for appearance sake" decision that only an international sporting body can NOT make. But then, of course, if we start applying things equally, women might start doing crazy things like demanding equal pay or something.

By: vaguelyweird

vaguelyweird — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:15:11 -0800

From here on out, they'll only be allowed to yell, "Kiiiiiiiiyaih!" Aside: If you're referring to kiai, it's a common misconception that this is onomatopoeia. Whenever students of martial arts do this, it's hard not to giggle.

By: makshi99

makshi99 — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:15:46 -0800

The grunting is natural to some of the players. Is this can create problem and why to ban according to gender?. The rule must be fair to everyone.

By: exlotuseater

exlotuseater — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:16:36 -0800

Speaking of "grunt" . . . Gonna squat down and fondle these moist grunt nuggets while I clean the squamous pus gunk from my chitterlings so they don't irritate my cankers or adenoids.

By: exlotuseater

exlotuseater — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:17:00 -0800

oh, yeah, panties.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:17:57 -0800

"A lot of pearl clutching at perceived sexism here. These are not grunts. These are shouts. When it was just grunts it was a little annoying, but they were very brief. Now that they shout for so long it bleeds into their opponent's return. It's ridiculous." It's not golf. Nobody gives a fuck if LeBron James grunts or Brett Favre grunts.

By: gingerest

gingerest — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:21:27 -0800

Ah, but I won't watch basketball because I can't stand the way the shoes squeak. (No one is ever willing to mute basketball coverage. I don't know why.) (Okay, I also won't watch basketball because I deeply don't care and there's so much of it.)

By: furiousxgeorge

furiousxgeorge — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:24:07 -0800

I'm a NASCAR fan, I'm not very enthusiastic about going to races because motorsports are one of the loudest things on the planet...of course I watch on TV and cheer for Danica Patrick for every Nationwide race. Seriously, I just don't like noise.

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:26:15 -0800

There is a ton of screaming and cursing in NBA games. It's really not an even comparison to tennis because 1)there is omnipresent crowd noise rather than expectation of silence, 2) the mics trained on the players are generally much lower in the mix in broadcasts.

By: Danila

Danila — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:29:47 -0800

There's no reason to ban it for women and not men.

By: The Tensor

The Tensor — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:32:31 -0800

"grunt" is one of the few words in the english language that gives me a visceral squick reaction. *shudder* Do any of these words embarrass you?

shoe
megaphone
grunties

By: drjimmy11

drjimmy11 — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:34:03 -0800

There is a ton of screaming and cursing in NBA games. Yes. There are also a lot of comically failed attempts to drop audio when someone is about to curse. Witness LeBron James going to the sidelines with cramps in a critical moment of the Finals: LEBRON: SHIT!!! ABC: [3 seconds of silence, 3 seconds after the fact]

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:36:04 -0800

I love those awkward silences after a swear gets through! It's like it was meant for the swear to really sink in for the audience.

By: A Thousand Baited Hooks

A Thousand Baited Hooks — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:44:39 -0800

I'll believe this is sexism when someone can point to the male equivalent of this (Williams v Sharapova). Until then, I'll happily accept the "Or not?" article's argument that the separate organisation that runs men's tennis simply has no reason to do anything about grunting.

By: MartinWisse

MartinWisse — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:44:56 -0800

That's one of those cultural imports from the US I hate the most, the idea that you have to bleep out swearing. So childish. Banning grunting? Sexism, of the sort expected from a sport organisation that likes to pretend it's 1912, not 2012 and it's all genteel amateurs doing a spot of lawn tennis, not a multibillion industry where the players, not them are the most important part of the game. If Rafael Nadal had grunted more, he'd still be at Wimbledon today.

By: Ad hominem

Ad hominem — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:57:44 -0800

Your opponent is waiting to return your serve. I really believe grunting or making loud noise can throw them off. It isn't like throwing a football halfway down the field or making a basketball shot. They need a split second reaction. You don't see MLB pitchers grunting, it would absolutely throw off the batter.

By: Sys Rq

Sys Rq — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:57:53 -0800

Seems to me like all that grunting makes it really easy for your opponent to time their actions, since you're essentially screaming, "I AM HITTING THE BALL NOW WITH THIS MUCH FORCE!!!" You're telegraphing every move. (Needs more fake-out grunting, is what I'm saying.)

By: Ad hominem

Ad hominem — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:01:19 -0800

Do they time it off the grunt? I bet they time it off the sound of the raquet hitting the ball. By all means. Fake out grunts and racquet twacking.

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:02:52 -0800

Ventrilogrunting, with puppets on the sidelines.

By: Ad hominem

Ad hominem — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:04:19 -0800

Fake out serves? Toss the ball up and whiff the serve, catch the ball and yell "Psyche! caught you looking!"

By: Dr Dracator

Dr Dracator — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:04:30 -0800

There's two things I'm not getting here: (a) that the sound would be described as a grunt - yell would be more like it and (b) that it could be mistaken for a sex sound: either I hang around really quiet women, or these people are watching really fake porn.

By: EsotericAlgorithm

EsotericAlgorithm — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:06:35 -0800

You don't see MLB pitchers grunting, it would absolutely throw off the batter. Pitchers screaming while pitching? I might watch more than a couple postseason games.

By: furiousxgeorge

furiousxgeorge — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:11:53 -0800

You don't see MLB pitchers grunting, it would absolutely throw off the batter. Yeah, I dunno. I feel like if it worked they would have been doing it for 75 years now and have detailed statistical analysis of the best way to grunt.

By: Ad hominem

Ad hominem — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:15:16 -0800

I was just thinking there is probably a rule against it. You would definitely see the opposing team shouting to startle the batter.

By: Navelgazer

Navelgazer — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:15:51 -0800

As I understand it the grunting (realistically, yelling) is absolutely Kiai, and has a purpose, and sounds like nothing that I've ever heard in a sexual situation, and let the top players play at their top form for godsakes. Now, Daisy and Peach in Mario Tennis, on the other hand, sound kind of dirty.

By: stoneandstar

stoneandstar — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:32:51 -0800

these people are watching really fake porn I actually think it might be the opposite, that the kind of deeply guttural sexual noises that they are comparing these tennis players' grunts/yells to are probably the kind in porn involving very aggressive vaginal or anal penetration, which requires considerable fortitude to withstand at the level it's depicted in mainstream pornography. So those (pornstars') sounds probably are a little more athletic/zen than the purely stylistic sounds in a softer scene. (Uhh, I am talking about porn too much, but I do think there's a good point to be made about how porn often erases/fetishizes the physically demanding experiences of women, and it's sad where we allow this (in porn) and where we don't (in athletics). Hopefully it's on topic?) I'm not sure I can parse the argument that "if it's banned for women it should be for men," because it seems like the amount of grunting(?? yeah maybe not the best word) is different. I am genuinely curious why this is. I still completely agree that it's latently sexist to regulate (as someone else mentioned) a multibillion dollar sport based on fans wetting their underoos about Inappropriate Female Noises. I mean, what was the deal with anyone anywhere "encouraging" female boxers wear skirts? It's just a basic entitlement to telling women what to do with their bodies when they are using them in unfeminine ways, even when they are performing in a context that is purely about bodily power and control. I see where furiousxgeorge is coming from, because I don't really like any immoderately long period of loud/sudden noise exposure. But I wouldn't dream of thinking that my dippy feelings have anything to do with how female athletes play their sport. (Because if the argument were that grunting is purely a disruptive tactic, I would understand that better as foul play. This seems to be more about sport as entertainment, and feels disproportionately nannying to me.)

By: Brocktoon

Brocktoon — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:38:35 -0800

Tennis released a new album recently. It's worth checking out IMO.

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:49:48 -0800

Nobody gives a fuck if LeBron James grunts or Brett Favre grunts. I care, a little. *sniff*

By: kavasa

kavasa — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:54:17 -0800

Who gives a shit if they're "tactical" or whatever? It's a competitive sport. Maybe developing a pretty good imitation of an air-raid siren will increasingly become necessary to compete at the highest levels. So what? Shaking my fist at the whiners.

By: barnacles

barnacles — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:00:46 -0800

gingerest: "Ah, but I won't watch basketball because I can't stand the way the shoes squeak." I ... I thought I was the only one! *sobs with relief*

By: furiousxgeorge

furiousxgeorge — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:00:51 -0800

Nobody gives a fuck if LeBron James grunts or Brett Favre grunts. They do care that McNabb puked though. They care about all kinds of random shit. These are spectator sports, not just competitive sports, if you are only focused on competitiveness that is fine but those compromises very well may mean people don't want to watch.

By: pracowity

pracowity — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:12:52 -0800

I think I would always trust Navratilova on tennis, and she is definitely against it:

Nine-time Wimbledon singles champion Martina Navratilova, an outspoken critic of high-decibel levels in the sport, applauded the initiative but scoffed at the pace of implementation. "I think it's a great idea, but speed it up," she said Monday. "You do not need a year to get used to not making a noise when you play tennis." [...] The criticism leveled at women has caused some to point out that male players also grunt — some quite loudly. The issue is not perceived to be a problem on the ATP World Tour and has not been raised, according to ATP spokeswoman Kate Gordon. "The women are definitely louder and more abrasive," Navratilova said.

By: Foam Pants

Foam Pants — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:23:54 -0800

Frankly, even if the guys don't grunt like the women do, fuck it. Women competing at this level should be able to let out a primal scream when they smack that ball. Why do they have to play the way the boys do?

By: MuffinMan

MuffinMan — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:27:11 -0800

It's not grunting, it's shrieking. Its prominence in women's tennis largely coincides with the success of alumni of the Bollettieri Tennis Academy in Florida. Shrieking definitely does have a physiological benefit in terms of exhaling while hitting the ball, but the length of the shriek is about psychological benefits. The shriek is an emotional exhalation - a war cry announcing the power of each shot - but like any war cry it is not just a motivational tool for the person doing it but a valuable tool for unnerving opponents. The longer, the louder, the more emotive the better. Coaches know this. I'm sure the players that shriek know it too but can dismiss it more easily because it has been coached in very early and is integral to their stroke play.

By: wuwei

wuwei — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:54:18 -0800

The article that claims "banning grunting is not sexist," is ridiculous. Banning grunting is not sexist because grunting in women's tennis is ritualized. Uh. Okay. So what, it's ritualized and serves a purpose. Men don't do it as much, claims the author. Therefore, it's not sexist to ban it. So what if it's ritualized? What difference does that make? If it serves a tactical purpose, isn't that even more reason to keep it? I mean seriously WHAT THE FUCK? Ritualized, trained shouting or "grunting" has physiological effects and makes for stronger hits. Hell, I've been taught that in a couple of different martial arts styles, from world class coaches. Seriously, tennis, WTF?

By: Dysk

Dysk — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:54:34 -0800

Having done some martial arts in my youth and being familiar with the concept of kiai, the thing that's always struck me with women's tennis is quite how long the grunts go on for. A quick burst of 'ungh' as you exert yourself, sure, but if you're still vocalising when the ball's on the way back? Strikes me as something that would take effort and concentration away from the tennis. Then again, that's probably just me - Lord knows I've never done any sort of sport anywhere near this level.

By: Segundus

Segundus — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:57:14 -0800

I'm old enough to remember when tennis was grunt free and you would no more have grunted when serving than farted. Maybe that's "next up" as those obnoxiously casual young announcers say these days.

By: wuwei

wuwei — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:01:59 -0800

If you want to see some very loud, very long vocalizations in a martial arts setting: Kendo master instructor match. Both of the men in the video are 8th dan instructors. To quote Wikipedia an 8th dan "is the highest dan grade attainable through a test of physical kendo skills."

By: dmt

dmt — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:03:55 -0800

Sharapova et al have been taking the piss for years. Long overdue.

By: Flashman

Flashman — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:10:17 -0800

UGGHHH! This makes me so mad.

By: brokkr

brokkr — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:27:11 -0800

A Thousand Baited Hooks: "I'll believe this is sexism when someone can point to the male equivalent of this (Williams v Sharapova)."

Never mind the grunting; how can Sharapova play with those dangly earrings? I'd go bananas trying to concentrate with those hitting my neck and cheek at every turn.

By: smoke

smoke — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:30:54 -0800

Lotta people who clearly don't follow/aren't interested in tennis weighing in here. The grunting that Sharapova/Azarenka/etc do is gamesmanship, pure and simple. When you see these people screaming when they hit a drop shot (note: just an example of a drop shot, not an example of screaming during one), screaming for so long that it persists until their opponent hits the ball, and screaming to mask the sound of their own hits, when most players in the top ten are not screaming and have accused other players of using it to gain an unfair advantage, when certain players are regularly reaching screams over 100 decibels, it's simply ignorant and reflexive to immediately brand it sexism. absolutely sexist. there are prominent male grunters that never seem to make this conversation. Please share the name of these grunters. I am a very keen follower of tennis and the only top ten player I can think of in recent memory who does this is Nadal, and I would say that a) his groans are nowhere near that loud or drawn, and b) he's notorious for gamesmanship as well. I am drawing a blank for any other prominent male player. I believe that it should definitely be banned - for both women and men, it's dirty play, and absolutely unnecessary. But I haven't seen anyone crying sexism demonstrate even a passing familiarity with the game, the players, or the what the actual screaming looks/sounds like in context.

By: Dysk

Dysk — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:41:22 -0800

Thing is though, in calling it 'gamesmanship' (your link goes to a wikipedia 'we don't have a page on this' page by the way) you effectively legitimise it. Now it isn't borderline rule-breaking, it's just tactics. Clever, tactical play...

By: smoke

smoke — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:52:09 -0800

sorry, see here for a distinct definition. The thing is, Dysk, until the regulate it, it essentially is tactics and gamesmanship. I look forward to some reform; as the majority of the women on the circuit seem to.

By: Pendragon

Pendragon — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:55:30 -0800

I couldn't agree more with smoke. I now watch women's tennis with the sound off.

By: anigbrowl

anigbrowl — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:56:07 -0800

So what if it's ritualized? What difference does that make? If it serves a tactical purpose, isn't that even more reason to keep it? I mean seriously WHAT THE FUCK? Tennis is supposed to be a game of ball control, not intimidation. As linked above, it's just way beyond any physical exertion, and frankly it's a distraction from the tennis. The last male player I can think offhand of who made a habit of grunting loudly was Jimmy Connors, and a great many people thought less of him because of it. Ritualized, trained shouting or "grunting" has physiological effects and makes for stronger hits. Hell, I've been taught that in a couple of different martial arts styles, from world class coaches. We love that in Tai Chi. Having your opponent broadcast their next move is like getting a free turn. By all means, continue.

By: A Thousand Baited Hooks

A Thousand Baited Hooks — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 02:51:53 -0800

Diving in soccer serves a tactical purpose as well, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable sporting behaviour.

By: HuronBob

HuronBob — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 03:20:19 -0800

Can we also do something about the engine noise at those NASCAR events?

By: Dysk

Dysk — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 03:53:47 -0800

A Thousand Baited Hooks: Diving in soccer serves a tactical purpose as well, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable sporting behaviour. Diving in football is also against the rules. You'll occasionally see someone get a yellow card for it. Being able to get away with a bit of rule-breaking as tactical play is quite a different kettle of fish to rule-abiding tactical play, in my opinion...

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:02:55 -0800

Can we also do something about the engine noise at those NASCAR events? Better analogy: what if NASCAR allowed whistle tips? Diving in football is also against the rules. You'll occasionally see someone get a yellow card for it. Being able to get away with a bit of rule-breaking as tactical play is quite a different kettle of fish to rule-abiding tactical play, in my opinion... This is tautological. Of course diving is technically against the rules. The question is, should excessive grunting remain within the rules? Is it a perfectly acceptable tactic, something that should be explicitly against the rules, or something in between?

By: DU

DU — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:07:06 -0800

grunt - meh ointment - no moist - meh belly - UGH

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:07:52 -0800

scrumptious

By: laconic skeuomorph

laconic skeuomorph — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:09:38 -0800

While this is being solved, can we all pitch in and buy Roddick and Nadal an outfit that actually fits? We only need to buy one. Give Andy the shirt and Rafa the shorts. In all seriousness, I've thought about this. What I would do is implement (for both men and women) an on-court decibel meter (or meters with averaged output) and have the display visible only to the chair judge. Set a threshold sound pressure level in the rulebook, perhaps 100 dB. During the course of play if the chair judge deems a player is making too much noise, first caution them, then start awarding points to the opponent. By not having a visible, live dB display for everyone to see and play gotcha with, and only showing this info to the chair, this preserves the subjective, judged aspect of the sport.

By: urbanwhaleshark

urbanwhaleshark — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:16:57 -0800

"grunt" is one of the few words in the english language that gives me a visceral squick reaction. *shudder* ointment You mean oinkment.

By: laconic skeuomorph

laconic skeuomorph — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:30:47 -0800

*actually Rs TFA* Hey, I wasn't far off! Now that that's settled, let's tackle another sexism-in-Tennis topic, that was reopened this week by Gilles Simon. Should men & women get equal prize money when they don't play the same amount of sets?

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:35:41 -0800

Should men & women get equal prize money when they don't play the same amount of sets? I had no idea that certain male tennis players were such big fans of the (long-debunked) labor theory of capital. From TFA: "Sharapova offered a clear answer to why she deserves the money she earns. 'I'm sure there are a few more people that watch my matches than his,' she said." And there you go.

By: smoke

smoke — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:39:40 -0800

Should men & women get equal prize money when they don't play the same amount of sets? That was a stupid remark by Simon - who should know better and was reduced to stuttering about other nameless men on the circuit who agree with him in private. Sharapova's dismissal was gold. More broadly, the women's field certainly has the athletic ability to go to five sets now, and I think it would really shake up the game dramatically if they did. One the one hand, the women's field is so open at the moment, anyone can win a slam out of about 10 maybe even 15 people, and that's very exciting; it makes for some great tennis during the tournaments, and mucking around with the formula would certainly close off the option of a championships for some of those 10-15. On the other hand, 5 sets is a very different ball game (ha ha) to the 2 you need to win otherwise. Almost anyone can run a hot streak for two sets, but when it comes down to the consistency required over a long match, there are many highly ranked players (Stosur, Azarenka, Li leap immediately to mind) that may struggle to maintain that. But then, for people that run hot and cold like Stosur (ironically one of the fittest players on the circuit, but psychologically not so strong), perhaps the longer duration would give them a chance to overcome the spend bumps that can send them hurtling out of tournaments at the moment. Interesting stuff. I do have to say - much as I love and will always love Federer - the unpredictability of the women's game is making for some great tennis at the moment in contrast to the relatively staid inevitability of a Djokovic/Nadal/Federer/Murray semi in the men's.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:43:21 -0800

Why is Tennis supposed to be played "Quiet" anyway? Every other sport fans yell and scream, and you certainly can't hear the athletes. But for some reason people treat tennis games like it's Shakespeare. It's completely absurd.

By: brokkr

brokkr — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:51:44 -0800

delmoi: "Every other sport fans yell and scream ..."

Yeah, I know what you mean, those boisterous golf hooligans! And don't get me started on snooker. Tennis is unique!

By: (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates

(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 05:05:18 -0800

I do have to say - much as I love and will always love Federer - the unpredictability of the women's game is making for some great tennis at the moment in contrast to the relatively staid inevitability of a Djokovic/Nadal/Federer/Murray semi in the men's. I think you may be an outlier. It seems from my vantage point that the consistency of the men's game - the dynasties of Fed/Rafa/Nole - has elevated it and made it more popular, while the lack of transcendent female players have tanked ratings and interest. As for the 5-set thing, Sharapova may be right that more people watch her matches than Gilles', but in general, men's tennis is still more popular than women's tennis. I think it makes sense to advocate for an equal system where the "event" generates a certain amount of revenue, and that revenue is distributed equally among the women and men. But I'm also one of those people who thinks that in majors, all matches should be of equal length. I think it's strangely old-fashioned to think that women can't "last" for five sets. Please.

By: ocschwar

ocschwar — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 05:14:03 -0800

If they stop grunting, where will I get new ringtones?

By: pracowity

pracowity — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 05:20:06 -0800

Now that that's settled, let's tackle another sexism-in-Tennis topic, that was reopened this week by Gilles Simon. All players -- men, women, etc. -- should play the same game against each other and be ranked in one big table regardless of sex. And then they should each be paid an equal fraction of the gate but divided by their world rank going into the tournament. The number 1 player (regardless of sex) would get paid twice as much as the number 2 player (regardless of sex), three times as much as the number 3 player (regardless of sex), and so on. Players who drove ticket sales (great players, sexy ladies and gentlemen, grunters and clowns, etc.) might help every player earn a little more money from tournament to tournament, but the big money would go to the consistent winners. (Or, as usual, to the attractive players who arranged big endorsement deals on the side.)

By: (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates

(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 05:31:27 -0800

pracowity, I know you're being sarcastic, but I don't know what you're being sarcastic about. Are you suggesting that paying women equally is ridiculous? Or is there another, more subtle point that just went way over my dunderheaded mind?

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 05:33:37 -0800

If you scan the rant as a QR code, it brings up a coupon for a DVD copy of Wimbledon, starring Paul Bettany and Kirsten Dunst.

By: clvrmnky

clvrmnky — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 05:49:48 -0800

Come on! Everyone knows the only way to watch women's tennis is to go to turn up the volume on the TV and close your eyes. They should broadcast matches on the /radio/. See? /That's/ how you do "sexist".

By: bluefly

bluefly — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 05:50:52 -0800

smoke: Please share the name of these grunters. I am a very keen follower of tennis and the only top ten player I can think of in recent memory who does this is Nadal, and I would say that a) his groans are nowhere near that loud or drawn, and b) he's notorious for gamesmanship as well. I am drawing a blank for any other prominent male player. I believe that it should definitely be banned - for both women and men, it's dirty play, and absolutely unnecessary. Exactly. I am also a big tennis fan, and I don't know any top men's players who grunt as long as the women do. Hearing the ball bounce gives a player information, and masking that sound is unsports(person)like. Also, I am not asking that the women act more feminine -- I think tennis is a gender-neutral sport however it is played -- I'm just asking them to play fair -- men and women. The wrinkle here is that there are separate tennis associations for men and women, so they are regulated differently. The WTA can do whatever it wants separate from the ATP.

By: threeants

threeants — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:10:35 -0800

Huh. I've never really watched tennis, and am surprised to find out that "grunts" are more like what I would describe as "wails of agony".

By: mediareport

mediareport — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:15:53 -0800

Yeah, that collection of the loudest moments in that Williams v Sharapova match linked above is an ear-opener. Seems kind of obvious the screaming has become a kind of cheat and needs to go.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:18:26 -0800

At one point an announcer in that match nails it: "It's not even grunting anymore; it's roaring."

By: Vindaloo

Vindaloo — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:26:49 -0800

It is no longer sport, it is theatre.

By: BitterOldPunk

BitterOldPunk — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:37:52 -0800

You don't see MLB pitchers grunting, it would absolutely throw off the batter. As a former Little Leaguer exiled to the outfield by my inability to competently play baseball, I can assure you that my entire purpose on the field was to yell "HeybattabattabattaSWINGbatta!" at batters. I think the pitcher is the only player NOT screaming at the batter, and that's only because he has more important shit to do. And shrieking has gone too far in women's tennis. This isn't an "oof" or a gasp or an involuntary utterance. It's deliberate, it's an attempt to game the game, and it makes it less fun to watch matches.

By: Etrigan

Etrigan — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:54:20 -0800

It is no longer sport, it is theatre. It is always theatre. Remember that athletes are paid not because they are great athletes, but because they are great entertainers. I may be the world's greatest office-chair racer, but if no one is willing to pay to watch me race my office chair around a grueling cubicle maze, then I will never be a professional office-chair racer. (Frankly, y'all are missing out, because I am transcendent in that turn around Shelly's stupid ficus.) If the paying audience (and by "paying," I mean those who buy tickets and those who watch the ads in between the matches and buy the sponsors' products) likes the grunting, then the grunting will stay. There may be some concessions to the minority who doesn't like it ("Tune in to channel 574 for the special Low Volume High Energy audio feed!"), but money drives the train.

By: Bwithh

Bwithh — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:54:59 -0800

I don't see where in the news article it says that the regulations and countermeasures are only aimed at women. Seems like they would be aimed at men too, even though focus is o the Women's Tennis Association here

By: emjaybee

emjaybee — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:56:40 -0800

So tennis lovers, why is silence required of the spectators anyway? A cheering crowd would take care of this issue. Even racehorses manage to compete with people screaming in the stands, are tennis players unable to do the same?

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:57:14 -0800

By: Naberius

Naberius — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:02:47 -0800

As I believe I said last time we did this, any idiot can grunt. It you want to demonstrate unquestioned court dominance, recite Moby Dick. "CALL ME!" - WHACK "ISHMAEL!" - WHACK "SOME YEARS!" - WHACK "AGO!" - WHACK "NEVER MIND!" - WHACK "HOW LONG!" - WHACK or possibly The Great Gatsby. "IN MY!" - WHACK "YOUNGER!" - WHACK "AND MORE!" WHACK "VULNERABLE!" - WHACK "YEARS!" - WHACK The end result would be not unlike chessboxing, and would demonstrate that, while your opponent is just hitting a ball around, you're playing a whole other game.

By: downing street memo

downing street memo — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:10:23 -0800

Grunting in tennis is one of the things that turns me off from watching it, every time. Nadal is a particularly bad offender.

By: the young rope-rider

the young rope-rider — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:11:11 -0800

Just wanted to say that stoneandstar's commentary here is brilliant.

By: brokkr

brokkr — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:13:12 -0800

emjaybee: "So tennis lovers, why is silence required of the spectators anyway?"

It's traditionally a "gentleman's" (i.e. bourgeois) sport. Contrast with soccer.

By: Dysk

Dysk — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:24:54 -0800

Cricket was traditionally a gentleman's game, but I seldom see drunker groups of people than the spectators at a cricket grounds...

By: laconic skeuomorph

laconic skeuomorph — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:28:09 -0800

Why is Tennis supposed to be played "Quiet" anyway? why is silence required of the spectators anyway?" I don't know if us tennis lovers can give an answer that would satisfy folks who aren't into it, but I would say, ultimately, out of respect for the game, the players, and the other spectators.

By: schmod

schmod — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:34:04 -0800

klangklangston: "From here on out, they'll only be allowed to yell, "Kiiiiiiiiyaih!"" Now I'm just picturing Miss Piggy playing tennis...

By: zzazazz

zzazazz — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:43:42 -0800

By: brokkr

brokkr — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:45:48 -0800

Unintentional, right. Did you watch the Williams vs. Sharapova clip?

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:47:12 -0800

> This is much ado about not a goddamn thing. Then why are they screaming from the very first serve? This is clearly a recent development in the sport. Now, a case could be made that they're simply louder now because they feel more secure in the acceptance of women as aggressive competitors whereas in previous times women tennis players were expected to be "ladylike", but it's obvious that the volume has gotten louder.

By: Bulgaroktonos

Bulgaroktonos — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:48:41 -0800

Stoopid. I didn't understand all the grunting until I was playing against a friend and we had been out there for a while and I was getting tired and really pushing myself. I went for a tough get and had to sprint and hit the ball really hard and...I grunted. It was loud. I remember thinking, "so that's why they make all that noise. They are pushing their bodies to the limit and it's unintentional." This is much ado about not a goddamn thing. The thing is, whether or not they're doing it because they're "pushing their bodies to the limit" is disputed. Males tennis players, for the most part, don't do it nearly as loud or as long as female players. Some noise is to be expected, but there's good reason to believe that these players are accentuating their noise making in order to gain a competitive advantage. Whether or not that competitive advantage should be allowed is a different question, obviously.

By: EmpressCallipygos

EmpressCallipygos — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:54:50 -0800

I love those awkward silences after a swear gets through! My favorite one I saw was during a live concert with The Who; they were doing "Who Are You," and apparently someone at the network was not aware that one of the lyrics to that song contain the line "Tell me, who the FUCK are you?" As to the matter at hand - okay, the argument that "this isn't grunting, this is shouting and that can disrupt the other players" is fair. However, unless they're also instilling these noise-meters at men's games, there's a double-standard at play here. Because I doubt that male tennis players have all been playing in a serene monk-like silence.

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:57:13 -0800

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:00:03 -0800

Equality

By: laconic skeuomorph

laconic skeuomorph — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:00:10 -0800

Yeah, they don't even use the same sized tennis balls.

By: Etrigan

Etrigan — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:03:30 -0800

She said size didn't matter!

By: mule98J

mule98J — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:14:21 -0800

Yeah, no more grunting. And get rid of those short dresses, too. Not ladylike at all. You can't concentrate on the game because you are always trying to see her undies....well, not me...I'm just saying...

By: Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey

Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:35:21 -0800

Me, I want howling banshees wailing at each other as they rally. I want shrieks and mean-muggin and fuckin' with the other cat's mojo. Get inside their heads, throw off their concentration, then hit 'em hard when they're off balance. I wanna see athletes who act like they're doing every thing they can to score more points than the person they're squared off against. Because these are professionals and first place comes with a much bigger paycheck than 2nd. There are no points for style, only points. Miyomoto Mushasi said that since Samurai carried two swords they should fight with both katana and wakizashi at the same time (instead of the traditional katana-only fighting). ""To die with your sword still in its sheath is most regrettable". Don't leave that +5 Sword of Grunting in the scabbard.

By: laconic skeuomorph

laconic skeuomorph — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:51:06 -0800

Tennis may not be for you then, PBZM. Luckily there is like, almost every other sport that caters to what you want.

By: Stagger Lee

Stagger Lee — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:07:40 -0800

My understanding has always been that the grunting was as much about covering up the sound of the impact as about putting effort into the swing. In that sense it's certainly a tactical move, not to "throw off" the opponent, but to make their job harder. I don't see why that's an issue.

By: Stagger Lee

Stagger Lee — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:12:50 -0800

There is no double standard here. The women and men each play within separate organizations with separate rules, charters, etc. It's pretty simple. The Council on Perceived Equanimity has no jurisdiction here. posted by Burhanistan That's not necessarily true. Entry into those leagues is defined by gender, so differences between the two leagues become all the more stark. Segregation absolutely does make institutionalized inequality easier. If you're going to have segregated men and women's leagues, it becomes more important than ever to ensure that they receive similar treatment. Honestly, gender is a precarious way to define league membership in the first place. If it's about physical ability, then it seems much more reasonable to define it according to that, and not based on sexual characteristics that really shouldn't have anything to do with the game itself. (weight categories?)

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:16:03 -0800

Ok, but these are private organizations, which is why I said there's really no good comparison other than an academic one. Unless you want some kind of state regulated tennis, then they will have to be taken on their own terms.

By: deo rei

deo rei — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:27:42 -0800

Sport is all about style. None of it makes sense. What matters is whether something violates style or not.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:02:18 -0800

"Shelly's stupid ficus" would be a great band name.

By: straight

straight — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:03:37 -0800

I wanna see athletes who act like they're doing every thing they can to score more points than the person they're squared off against. If the ladies were brandishing handguns, they might score more points and their opponents might be more polite.

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:08:29 -0800

> their opponents might be more polite. Heh. Though, what's interesting is that the women are usually very polite and professional with each other on court. They have to, since they'll spend hours looking directly at one another on multiple occasions. The judges and court staff are those who get the players' worst.

By: MangyCarface

MangyCarface — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:11:35 -0800

Found while googling

By: griphus

griphus — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:15:08 -0800

If the ladies were brandishing handguns, they might score more points and their opponents might be more polite. It's going to take me a few minutes to convince Spike that they should green-light this, but we're going to be rich.

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:20:23 -0800

Women's tennis needs to become BASEketball.

By: SpacemanStix

SpacemanStix — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:26:48 -0800

Yeah, I dunno. I feel like if it worked they would have been doing it for 75 years now and have detailed statistical analysis of the best way to grunt. Moneygrunt, with Brad Pitt.

By: en forme de poire

en forme de poire — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:28:32 -0800

Yeah, they don't even use the same sized tennis balls. The size is the same, it's just the felt coating is regular- instead of heavy-duty. It's a pretty subtle difference.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:33:55 -0800

mediareport: "Yeah, that collection of the loudest moments in that Williams v Sharapova match linked above is an ear-opener. Seems kind of obvious the screaming has become a kind of cheat and needs to go." Yeah, grunting does not even begin to describe the sheer decibels of shrieking that goes on in women's tennis now. It masks the sound of the ball and the racquet hit, it's a distraction, and in person; it's crazy loud. As someone mentioned above, some of them are almost as loud as a jet flying 100 feet above you. I recently played a casual tennis ladder, where one young woman started doing that screaming thing after she lost her first set. All five courts stopped what they were doing, and went over to ask her to stop or forfeit her spot. It's uncalled for, it's rude, and it's not how the game should be played. It has nothing to do with ladylike; it has everything to do with the game itself. If men were out there primal screaming with every shot, their league would take the same action, I can almost guarantee it. Someone upstream asked why the crowds are silent during volleys; it's so the players can hear the ball. Exertion grunting; yeah, that's gonna happen at the level of play that these athletes are performing...but this isn't some little "ooof", this is a full on 3 second shriek that often lasts past when their opponent has returned the ball. It's ridiculous. This shrieking is nothing more than cheating and it should be banned.

By: en forme de poire

en forme de poire — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:46:29 -0800

Also clearly Gilles Simon is being an ass monkey, but I would actually love to see 5-set matches on the women's side. I think the athleticism is certainly there and it might lead the game in interesting directions.

By: wuwei

wuwei — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:52:53 -0800

We love that in Tai Chi. Having your opponent broadcast their next move is like getting a free turn. By all means, continue. Oh you mean like this guy?

By: newdaddy

newdaddy — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:01:06 -0800

Turns out I do this a lot while I'm coding.

By: gern

gern — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:39:04 -0800

Wankel Rotary Engine.

By: anigbrowl

anigbrowl — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:44:56 -0800

Wuwei - yes, but since it's very much a balance thing when you're doing a solo form you have to check yourself to make up for the lack of an opponent's body weight. This would probably explain better than several paragraphs; note how fluid the movements are, and how heavily geared towards stealing momentum from the opponent. There was an excellent FPP on it previously, with lots of links and insightful commentary.

By: en forme de poire

en forme de poire — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:58:16 -0800

Watching a little of the 2011 Wimbledon Final I'm actually not convinced this is so unique to women. Djokovic and Nadal both seem to be grunting pretty hard and consistently here, just at a lower pitch.

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:59:01 -0800

Would a decibel limit satisfy suspicions of value-judgements? Decibels can be measured by a machine that does not distinguish between opera signing, rock metal screaming, exertion grunting, or anything else, and a fair bit is known about intermittent high decibels being discomforting. If it's an argument that fan preferences should not influence the rules of the game, I think that's just a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. A decision has been made by the league that the benefits of being a product for mainstream consumption are well worth it. There are other leagues that are not on TV, and don't have big followings, for people who don't care about audience or glory or status, only about hitting the ball.

By: smoke

smoke — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 15:16:15 -0800

Why is Tennis supposed to be played "Quiet" anyway? why is silence required of the spectators anyway?" I don't think that people who watch tennis regularly - or only on television - appreciate how much closer you are to the court than the majority of spectator sports. You can be less than ten metres away from the players when you're on the court. In this context, the noises are very loud which is why catcalls etc during play are frowned upon, it really is very disturbing. Djokovic and Nadal both seem to be grunting pretty hard and consistently here yt , just at a lower pitch. I would argue that is not representative of the men's field in general - or even the course of one of their own matches (with the possible exception of Nadal, who, as I say is notorious for gamesmanship in genera), and also that is not on par with Azarenka/Sharapova, in either volume or duration, and you don't see either of those players grunting when they're not slamming the ball.

By: anigbrowl

anigbrowl — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 17:33:44 -0800

Djokovic and Nadal both seem to be grunting pretty hard and consistently here yt , just at a lower pitch. I would be fine with men's tennis having similar rules. It's just that the WTA is a totally self-contained body, AFAIK. Meanwhile, Michelle Larcher de Brito wins the prize for Extreme Grunting.

By: srboisvert

srboisvert — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 17:34:14 -0800

What about when they get stabbed? (too soon?)

By: bukvich

bukvich — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:14:03 -0800

Grunting has been around since forever but Monica Seles was the one who introduced screaming. There has got to be some kind of U-shaped or inverse-U-shaped function where a little grunt is helpful and a bunch of grunting transforming into screaming is a waste of energy. (If the women screamed for five sets that might be an interesting comparison.) Seles was a student at the Boliteri academy so the comment above blaming him may not be totally off. I don't like grunting dudes at the gym and I don't like grunting people on my tennis telecasts; the television set is trivial to turn down, but the only option they have at courtside is earplugs or cotton balls. It definitely is a hindrance to the opponent because the sound of the ball whacking off the strings is full of clues to how the shot is going to travel.

By: kavasa

kavasa — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 20:43:52 -0800

I fully grant that the screaming may or does conceal information from the opponent. And? Concealing information from one's opponent is kind of a foundational concept in basically every sport ever. Misleading eye movements and gestures, feints and fakes, etc.

By: bukvich

bukvich — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 21:13:23 -0800

An important datum: Anna Kournikova. Lion's roar 110 [decibels] Maria Sharapova 101 Monica Seles 93.2 Serena Williams 88.9 Lindsay Davenport 88 Venus Williams 85 Victoria Azarenka 83.5 Elena Bovina 81 Anna Kournikova 78.5 Perhaps Ms. Sharapova is losing endorsement money by screaming. (decibels are logarithmic and 101 dB is ~ 3X louder than 78.5.)

By: WilliamMD

WilliamMD — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 21:55:25 -0800

I don't think it is correct to label this as sexist. The WTA has standards as to how they want their players to behave on court. Maybe the men's league doesn't care, but we shouldn't begrudge the WTA from having some expectations of conduct. And I don't mind the occasional grunt especially when a player is going in for the kill, but to scream when you are doing a drop shot is cheating AFAIC. And Azarenka just seems to like the sounds of her bird calls and it lasts way too long. It's hard watching tennis these days with all the screaming. I'm all for this. And I can't think of any male players that abuse it like this unless many many of the women.

By: Peach

Peach — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 01:50:46 -0800

In fencing, we have many of the same arguments, except that the guys yell too. The women whose screams are loud and high come in for considerable criticism because it hurts the ears, but people give the guys a hard time too. Interestingly, we have very few spectators; it isn't done for the audience. Some argue that it is done to sway the referee, and it's pretty comical to have two guys roaring like lions, making fists, and turning to the referee, only to have the referee say "Simultaneous actions. No touch. On guard." Some people, who see it as an affront to their civilized ideals of competition, would like to have the yelling outlawed. People can get very offended. Especially since it seems it's partly under the athlete's control: You're not supposed to yell before you hit someone, so people don't. Instead, they yell afterwards, often politely turning away so they don't yell in their opponents' faces. I yell. Mostly when I've pulled off a really spectacular action. It's more surprise and exhilaration than anything else.

By: Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey

Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 10:40:17 -0800

Okay, fencing is a sport that is LITERALLY AND EXPLICITLY derived from techniques used to commit murder against someone trying to murder you back. And people don't want yelling as you go through the motions of trying to slash open a person's body so they bleed out or ram sharp steel through their organs?

By: bukvich

bukvich — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 10:45:24 -0800

Peach I had no idea there was high decibel sound effects in fencing, which I have only seen photos, never watched a match. Now I am wondering who else yells that I do not know about. Shot putters & discus & javelin throwers? Table tennis? Squash? The guy on the gym rings? Wrestlers? Greco-Roman wrestlers? Sumo wrestlers? There is an askme question for good youtubes I guess.

By: CancerMan

CancerMan — Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:28:15 -0800

It would seem people are missing out on the key word "excessive." To me it describes yells and shouts above and beyond reasonable expectations. I'm all for an athlete yelling at the moment of exertion, such as when hitting a tennis ball or spiking a volleyball. I'm also for athletes yelling throughout continued exertion, such as power-lifters during an olympic press. But excessive yelling ought to have some form of punishment. When a tennis player (male or female) shouts as they swat that ball over 50mph with a forehand, that's one thing. When their shout extends even to the moment where they're waiting for the return, that's beyond reason. Maybe these players don't have to be penalized on the court, if there are still people who think it's part of the game to distract or mislead the opponent. Maybe hit the wallet instead, and fine them a significant amount for each infraction.

By: bluefly

bluefly — Wed, 04 Jul 2012 17:02:19 -0800

Maybe hit the wallet instead, and fine them a significant amount for each infraction. This might work for players lower down in the rankings, but fines are already in place for other bad behaviors -- berating umpires, breaking rackets, calling opponents names, etc, and it doesn't seem to help. Serena Williams had a series of high profile incidents that led to fines, and that hasn't really stopped her. The players at the top of the rankings make too much money for a $5K fine to do much. (I realize they could fine them more; but I think penalizing/dq'ing them is still probably more effective. They all want to play -- you can't win, if you can't play. And they all want to win above everything else).