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Zombies don't get into this party ...
July 17, 2012 8:50 AM   Subscribe

It's that time again. Time for the Juggalos to gather, this year in Cave In Rock, Illinois. The theme? Zombies, of course. And our very own dabitch has the 23-minute infomercial. (Previously and previously and previously.)
posted by grabbingsand (130 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite

 
I do not care for this ish where one subculture has been deemed sufficiently different that it's okay to ridicule them.

And you know what? I'm a physicist. Magnets are goddamn complicated and if you don't know what a Lorentz boost and rotation is, then I bet you don't know how they work, either. I'm okay with these guys not wanting to talk to scientists -- I hated relativistic E&M, too.
posted by samofidelis at 8:57 AM on July 17, 2012 [18 favorites]


Who said it's okay to ridicule them?
posted by box at 9:00 AM on July 17, 2012


Juggalos do not appear to be celebrated too often in their appearances in popular media.
posted by samofidelis at 9:02 AM on July 17, 2012


I used to make fun of the Juggalos but at some point I decided they were just a bunch of people who liked a band and I was happy that they found something to enjoy. They're basically Deadheads with slightly different tastes. And makeup. And fewer veggie burritos. I can respect that.

The infomercials are fascinating though. They're really not much different than the SNL parodies of them. "What up, ninjas? Mad crunk all up in this bitch!" Awesome.

I watched this the other night and curiosity got the better of me when they mentioned "the controversial Millionaires" so I looked up the video for "Party Like a Millionaire." Oh man. It was like they decided that Ke$ha song wasn't stupid enough.
posted by bondcliff at 9:05 AM on July 17, 2012 [5 favorites]


@samofidelis

"ish" is a great term for it

it's a depression, though, and I need someone to crap on so I don't off myself in despair
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 9:05 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Is this our annual Othering of the Juggalos post? (Or are we full circle into "you just don't understand them, man" territory?)

George Clinton, Kool Keith, Biz Markie, Pharcyde, a reunited Geto Boys, Rahzel, Raekwon, Danny Brown, Master P, Tech N9ne, Project Pat, DMX, The Game, Mack 10. Mostly not my thing but this is a very solid lineup if it is your thing. Throughout the years the Gathering has sneakily become a great hip-hop festival.
posted by naju at 9:06 AM on July 17, 2012 [18 favorites]


If ridiculing juggalos is wrong, I don't want to be right.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:07 AM on July 17, 2012 [19 favorites]


Cannot stop watching.

And now I know what the Geto Boys, Onyx, and Kool Keith have been up to.

And wow is this ever not my thing, but it does make me realize that I've been involved in several different 'subcultures' that consider themselves the Last Bastion Of The Free-Thinking Non-Sheeple: punk rock and hackers and even the international medical NGO set.

But, really, why does everyone point like this: \|..| ?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 9:15 AM on July 17, 2012


In my experience, there are people in most subcultures that consider their subculture the Last Bastion Of The Free-Thinking Non-Sheeple.
posted by box at 9:19 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


I really feel sorry for the people who are travelling to Illinois and based on the little tourism page that bears no mention of the Gathering say to themselves "That sounds like a nice place to visit."

They're in for a treat.
posted by prepmonkey at 9:19 AM on July 17, 2012 [3 favorites]


I was momentarily tempted just by Geto Boys. I've seen Onyx and Pharcyde but Geto Boys may be worth a trip to Illinois. Last year they had Paris, either he has really mellowed out since the 90s or the gathering has become some secret black nationalist meetup.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:19 AM on July 17, 2012


In my experience, there are people in most subcultures that consider their subculture the Last Bastion Of The Free-Thinking Non-Sheeple.

Even non-conformists need to conform somewhere.
posted by Talez at 9:21 AM on July 17, 2012 [4 favorites]


Thank you Samofidelis - While I don't think Violent J is incredibly bright, I too was perplexed how people grabbed on to the 'Magnets' line as scorn worthy. I was a couple credits shy from a physics minor and I do not know 'how the fuck Magnets work.'

Hell, the results of conservation of angular momentum is almost black voodoo magic to me, and your shocked that a rapper isn't able to explain how Ampere's law relates to the creation of a field that is invisible but contains a potential energy related to its ability to apply force to charged particles?
posted by midmarch snowman at 9:21 AM on July 17, 2012 [5 favorites]


The survivalist community will not be amused. All guns and zombies, no preps.

Seriously, I do not know what to do with this iconography--the camo, the rifles, the end-of-the-world-zombie apocalypse--in this context because I'm so used to its associations with right-wing-leaning, former/current military/LEO types with sensible haircuts and strong politics. But if there's an Insane Middle-aged Republican Posse appearing at The Gathering it would not surprise me at this point.
posted by MonkeyToes at 9:21 AM on July 17, 2012


If ridiculing juggalos is wrong, I don't want to be right.

All hurfdurf aside, I'm actually interested in what an honest historical analysis of Juggalos as a cultural group might reveal. Whatever else you might think of them these guys have successfully bootstrapped an entire subculture, and it'd be interesting to see what combination of circumstances, decisions and actions made that possible.
posted by mhoye at 9:23 AM on July 17, 2012 [3 favorites]


magnets work by pulling things together, duh
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 9:27 AM on July 17, 2012


Get your huggalos in at the cuddle party!
posted by inturnaround at 9:31 AM on July 17, 2012 [4 favorites]


In previous metafilter discussions of the Gatherings there are usually some very interesting stories of people who have attended and the meaning of the larger Juggalo subculture - mostly rooted in white rural poverty and the like. There was one super long comment that really illuminated a few things for me but I can't find it now. I think by Klangklangston - about the faygo thing being soda for people whom pepsi is considered a luxury.

And the yearly "I went underground amongst the Juggalos!" article always ends with "and it was young people at a music festival like young people at music festivals everywhere."
posted by The Whelk at 9:32 AM on July 17, 2012 [5 favorites]


While I don't think Violent J is incredibly bright, I too was perplexed how people grabbed on to the 'Magnets' line as scorn worthy. I was a couple credits shy from a physics minor and I do not know 'how the fuck Magnets work.'

It's not because Violent J was ignorant. It's that he promoted it, embraced it, reveled in it. He didn't even want to know why magnets worked in his hypothetical scenario of someone trying to explain it to him. The pride expressed in one's ignorance and belittlement of intelligence is pretty much the biggest thing wrong with America today.

If people don't believe that's valid as "scorn worthy" we're in some really deep shit.
posted by Talez at 9:32 AM on July 17, 2012 [40 favorites]


'Live From Insane Clown Posse's Gathering of the Juggalos'
'89 Things I Learned at the Gathering of the Juggalos'
'In the Land of Juggalos, A Juggalo is King'
'Down with the Clown: Why Your Hatred of Juggalos is Toxic and Dumb'
posted by box at 9:33 AM on July 17, 2012


I don't thinks it's the "Fucking magnets, how do they work" line that really bugs me so much as the "And I don't wanna talk to a scientist / Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed" lines that come after it.

Also what Talez said.
posted by VTX at 9:33 AM on July 17, 2012 [11 favorites]


Recently, my boyfriend and I sat down at a Shoney's for the breakfast buffet. A nice Amish family was in the adjacent booth, with two little boys playing in the seat behind my boyfriend. I was unfamiliar with this phenomenon, and my bf was going on (with great amusement) about the juggalos, ICP, their annual gathering, juggalettes, Faygo, Blaze Ya Dead Homie, magnets, and the overarching story that connects their albums. About halfway through his explanation, I realized that the two boys had stopped playing around and were listening intently. Unbeknownst to him, they stared at my him with rapt attention, hanging on his every word until he told me about the final Joker's Card, that instructed all juggalos to follow God and make it to heaven. When he got up to get another plate, they whispered furiously and excitedly to each other. Their mother gave me a disapproving glare.

So, yeah, that's how my boyfriend inadvertently converted a couple of Mennonite children into Juggalos in the Dark Carnival.
posted by almostmanda at 9:33 AM on July 17, 2012 [62 favorites]


I hope everyone stays safe and has a fun time! That is all.
posted by vespabelle at 9:34 AM on July 17, 2012 [3 favorites]


It's not because Violent J was ignorant. It's that he promoted it, embraced it, reveled in it. He didn't even want to know why magnets worked in his hypothetical scenario of someone trying to explain it to him. The pride expressed in one's ignorance and belittlement of intelligence is pretty much the biggest thing wrong with America today.

I was going to say something like this, but Talez beat me to it (and more succinctly than I probably would've, too).
posted by inigo2 at 9:35 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


And it's a damned odd subculture. I've always thought of ICP as a mashup of hip-hop and angry metal. In past infomercials, the bands have tended towards this. This year, it seems to be almost all hip-hop, (at least in terms of the "headliners" they feature, the ones introduced by Awesome Dre). And a lot of that hip-hop featured as the names rolled off was pretty low key, melodic, and mellow. Maybe the majority of juggalos are hitting their thirties and all the weed and faygo has chilled them out.

On the other hand

SIDE SHOW ODDITIES!
posted by Windopaene at 9:39 AM on July 17, 2012 [3 favorites]


There's freshness happening. Or maybe just a burning sensation during urination.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:42 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


The main thing for me is that it's kind of hard to hate on a subculture when it feels like they're just about the only subculture left, yeah?
posted by furiousthought at 9:50 AM on July 17, 2012 [4 favorites]


Juggalos are popular fodder for ridicule because they're mostly underclass ("white trash"). There is no other reason for this one particular subculture and their peculiar music to be so derided as to be blamed with representing all of America's ills.
posted by deathpanels at 9:52 AM on July 17, 2012 [3 favorites]


Head to Montreal, it's like a subculture wilderness preserve
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 AM on July 17, 2012 [8 favorites]


"Fucking magnets, how do they work" is not a statement of scientfic ignorance, but rather a potent koan akin to Original Face or Mu. A timeless question that can only be answered with deep spiritual introspection and the liberal use of DMT.

That is a solid lineup though, and in an alternate universe I would totally go.
posted by Lorin at 9:52 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


While I agree that social class is a contributing factor, I do not believe this is the only reason that people ridicule Juggalos.
posted by box at 9:53 AM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


Great moments in radio history: Jul 21 2009: Tom Scharpling and Paul F Tompkins deconstruct a spot for the Gathering of the Juggalos on the mighty WFMU. (This was prior to the SNL skit - I think SNL writers listen to WFMU)

http://wfmu.org/flashplayer.php?version=2&show=32311&archive=54334

The discussion of the Gathering of the Juggalos starts at about 1:26:00

I still laugh out loud thinking about "Violent Jay's Beach Barbeque Blowout Bash Blast".
posted by crazy_yeti at 9:54 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's not because Violent J was ignorant. It's that he promoted it, embraced it, reveled in it. He didn't even want to know why magnets worked in his hypothetical scenario of someone trying to explain it to him. The pride expressed in one's ignorance and belittlement of intelligence is pretty much the biggest thing wrong with America today.

It's not like the distinction matters to me - I want to be really clear up front about that - but I do think it's kind of funny to read a thing decrying the horrors of ignorance while attributing the infamous line to the wrong member of the duo.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:58 AM on July 17, 2012 [6 favorites]


Parliament Funkadelic, Fear Factory AND Ric Flair? Can you beat that Coachella? CAN YOU!?!?
posted by PenDevil at 9:59 AM on July 17, 2012 [4 favorites]


It's not like the distinction matters to me - I want to be really clear up front about that - but I do think it's kind of funny to read a thing decrying the horrors of ignorance while attributing the infamous line to the wrong member of the duo.

My apologies. Black and white people all look the same to me.
posted by Talez at 10:02 AM on July 17, 2012 [5 favorites]


@deathpanels fine, but for real you've gotta get me someone to mock because i don't have a job or money to do shit, and i'm home on the internet too much, and when i get up little bits of my self-image fall out of the cuffs of my jeans
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 10:04 AM on July 17, 2012


Like Larry the Cable Guy, Lady Gaga, Paris Hilton, etc - ICP has just discovered the niche that their characters and personas appeal to, and are working it for maximum profit.

Sure, some of their fans are a little too enthusiastic and take the backstory and music as Scripture rather than inspiration. That will happen no matter what subculture you're talking about.

The King Juggalos *know* that some people will be fans, some will be mega-fans, and that other people will regard them with scorn or disrespect. A little controversy? Heck, man, that's *free publicity*. They might not be brilliant, but they're certainly not dumb behind all that makeup.

They're free to have their Annual Gathering of the Juggalos, and I'm free to make fun and laugh at the overzealous examples of their fandom. I hope they make a lot of money, and I hope everyone stays safe and has a good time.
posted by mrbill at 10:10 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


BUT NO ONE ELSE WANTS TO TALK
TO SCIENTISTS EITHER. Besides, (1) what's wrong with occasionally celebrating stupidity? That's not how I vote, but I love laughing at myself; and (2) there's a difference between person and persona. We've been through this with rap before; we understand that performance is not the same as reality. No one from Zeppelin necessarily thinks he has come from a land of ice and snow to be my overlord.

Does anyone remember that poem about the rainbow-sided monster? The Romantics expressed a lot of the same rejection of the intellect.
posted by samofidelis at 10:11 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Juggalos are popular fodder for ridicule because they're mostly underclass

I think they are fodder for ridicule because their videos are SO FUNNY! Have you actually watched this thing?
posted by crazy_yeti at 10:12 AM on July 17, 2012 [5 favorites]


the "Let's Give A Fuck!" toy drive video makes me genuinely smile every time.

"WITH THE TAGS FUCKING ON"
posted by The Whelk at 10:14 AM on July 17, 2012


you've gotta get me someone to mock

Well, whatever you do, don't mock R. Kelly's pompous inanity, because that would be racist.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:16 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


No one from Zeppelin necessarily thinks he has come from a land of ice and snow to be my overlord.

The kittens totally do, though.
posted by elizardbits at 10:16 AM on July 17, 2012 [6 favorites]


Making fun of Juggalos is old and busted
Making fun of Bronies is the new hotness
posted by stifford at 10:19 AM on July 17, 2012


No one from Zeppelin necessarily thinks he has come from a land of ice and snow to be my overlord.

Dude Frost Giants love Zep.
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 AM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


Jugalos = Darwin at work on a semi-large scale
posted by Vibrissae at 10:20 AM on July 17, 2012


Making fun of Bronies is the new hotness

Eh, I'd say the Brony mockery is half-assed at best. It's just the usual "LOL UR GAY" stuff you see online everywhere.

For me the Brony phenomenon is just tiring. It's the latest iteration of what the zombie thing was: another fad boring people can latch on to so they can show the world how quirky they are.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:24 AM on July 17, 2012 [5 favorites]


Every year there's a thread about this and people get all agitated and wind up sounding like Tipper Gore or Allan Bloom. These kids are just a slightly more militant version of the Kiss Army or the SMF's, that's all.

*cranks "Fuck The World"*
posted by jonmc at 10:27 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


zombie juggalo ponies are right out.
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 AM on July 17, 2012 [3 favorites]


Is Turbojugend a useful comparison?
posted by box at 10:30 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


> They're basically Deadheads with slightly different tastes. And makeup. And fewer veggie burritos. I can respect that.

Y'know, speaking as a Deadhead, I respect that. Marginalized subculture with its own rules and customs, blah blah blah -- it's OK by me. As long as no one gets hurt and they don't ask to use my shower, I hope they have a lot of fun.
posted by mosk at 10:30 AM on July 17, 2012


The Romantics expressed a lot of the same rejection of the intellect.

Yes, they did. Must be a Detroit thing.
posted by Floydd at 10:34 AM on July 17, 2012


Well, whatever you do, don't mock R. Kelly's pompous inanity, because that would be racist.

Dude, I've been waiting with bated breath since they announced the next 32 installments of Trapped in the Closet back in MARCH.

Come on, R. Kelly. Get your finger out. (No pun intended.)
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:35 AM on July 17, 2012


Living as I do near a theatre, its always interesting to see subcultures gather outside and try to guess who they are/mark the subtle differences between them (Jam bands skews younger/more hardcore, Allman brothers fans skew older and working class, venerable psychedelic band fans all dress like Walter Bishop). It's fun playing "guess who the people who are all dressed alike are going to see".
posted by The Whelk at 10:35 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Y'know, speaking as a Deadhead, I respect that. Marginalized subculture with its own rules and customs, blah blah blah -- it's OK by me. As long as no one gets hurt and they don't ask to use my shower

Liar, Deadheads don't use showers!

Kidding.

Yeah, I hope you didn't take that as me making fun of Deadheads. As I've grown older I've come to respect anyone who does something, has fun, and doesn't harm anyone in the process. Deadheads are pretty much exactly that. Juggalos seem to be doing the same thing. Good for them.
posted by bondcliff at 10:36 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Are we really hating on these Juggalo kids, or just marveling in the unlikeliness of them?

I read these stories with roughly the same level and type of interest as I would have about a hidden gypsy enclave in a nearby national forest.

It's just odd, is all.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:37 AM on July 17, 2012 [10 favorites]


I do not care for this ish where one subculture has been deemed sufficiently different that it's okay to ridicule them.

It's okay to ridicule EVERY subculture/youth cult/scene. They are inherently ridiculous and participating in one will result in ridicule. It doesn't make it not fun or not okay, but you ought to have a sense of humor about yourself if you're going to be playing dress-up and joining a herd.

In my experience, this is something the Juggalos understand better than most other subculture participants, which is why I kind of like them as people.

I judge the shit out of them, I make fun of them, and I could spend a lot of time deconstructing everything I find lame about their whole shtick, but that doesn't mean I can't also like them.
posted by snottydick at 10:43 AM on July 17, 2012 [12 favorites]


There is no other reason for this one particular subculture and their peculiar music to be so derided

THEY DRESS UP AS SCARY CLOWNS.

I'm pretty sure if most of them were from the top one percent of the income ladder, they'd still get derided for DRESSING UP AS SCARY CLOWNS.
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:43 AM on July 17, 2012 [12 favorites]


It's okay to ridicule EVERY subculture/youth cult/scene. They are inherently ridiculous and participating in one will result in ridicule. It doesn't make it not fun or not okay, but you ought to have a sense of humor about yourself if you're going to be playing dress-up and joining a herd.

As a goth, I fully endorse this statement.
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:44 AM on July 17, 2012 [7 favorites]


Thanks for posting this, grabbingsand. I hadn't realized it was that time again, and I love these infomercials. They just delight the hell out of me--they're so over the top (and, I believe, purposely so), such a caricature of this sort of thing. I mean, SNL doing a spoof of this is so carrying coals to Newcastle. And yet, there's an undercurrent of actual earnestness, and even though this isn't my plastic cup of Faygo, I find myself thinking, "Wow, that's a pretty solid line-up." In fact, seeing as Cave In Rock is not particularly far away from where we live, I find myself rather pondering making a day-trip just to check it out, but sadly the gathering happens every year at the same time as the gathering of the SCAdians out in Pennsylvania, which is where I'll be. It would be interesting to compare/contrast the cultures, their histories and the driving forces behind them.
posted by miss patrish at 10:45 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Head to Montreal, it's like a subculture wilderness preserve

Now I am imagining a goth petting zoo and also a skatepunk terrarium where you toss in food pellets and they do 360 ollies or whatever they are to grab a bite.
posted by furiousthought at 10:48 AM on July 17, 2012 [6 favorites]



Now I am imagining a goth petting zoo and also a skatepunk terrarium where you toss in food pellets and they do 360 ollies or whatever they are to grab a bite.


Hurry up the Ska Feeding is at 4, they look so cute in their skinny ties!
posted by The Whelk at 10:49 AM on July 17, 2012 [8 favorites]


A quick look at the wiki entries for Psychopathic Rydas and Dark Lotus makes me want to see a family tree or, better yet a Venn diagram, of the artists on Psychopathic Records. Because I'm pretty sure it's just the same 5 guys in a few different combinations (5C3 and the like) appearing under different names, with slightly different makeup.
posted by knile at 10:52 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


You could make the argument that "horrorcore" has its roots in The Geto Boys meditations on the psychological effects of a life of crime such as Mind of a Lunatic. With My Mind Playing Tricks On Me the horror aspect became more pronounced, it contains more traditional horror elements. Later, Gravediggaz, featuring RZA and Prince Paul, added polish with songs like Diary of a Madman. Rapping about over the top horror movie style violece while adding popular rap themes, such as references to Nation of Gods and Earths and 5 percent movement in general. Other acts such as Brotha Lynch Hung explored serial killer style kill sprees in songs like Rest in Piss and Loc 2 Ta Brain. Of current practitioners ICP and Odd Future are undoubtely the widest known, Nightmare by Tyler The Creator is a good example of the genre.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:54 AM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


The Juggalo ninja-kids are mainly just poor kids who grew up in shitty homes with shitty schools and not much opportunity. This much is true.

But on the other hand I've seen how the local runaway Juggalo kids operate in downtown Seattle, and it's not ok, and it's not just another subculture. There is a haphazard if clumsy and clueless criminal element to it that's really unsavory.

They openly deal drugs downtown while hanging out with their dogs on strings, and from the stories I've heard buying from them is apparently at best a great way to get ripped off - or worse, mugged.

These are the same kids that were the primary non-police factor that utterly destroyed the local Occupy Seattle movement from the inside out.

These were the kids who treated OWS like an open street party who were tweaking, smoking crack, using IV drugs and walking around with open containers of alcohol. These are the same kids that were going around with official looking donation boxes and taking off with the money - sometimes thousands of dollars.

One of these little rip off shits was high on street ecstasy when the SPD raided the first tent city occupation at Westlake - he was carrying a number of pills that he ended up eating all at once to destroy the evidence as his tent was being torn down around him. I know all of this because later that night he showed up in my neighborhood hanging out with a neighbor bragging about it while still high as a kite. This same kid was being sought by OWS folks for missing donations exceeding $1-2k that were allegedly "safe" in his motel room. He left to "go get it" and never returned. He didn't even live in Seattle, and said he was from Portland, but somehow I doubt that's the entire story.

There was also at least one reported rape at the OWS tent city encampment at Seattle Central Community College - and it was someone from the same crew of Juggalo kids still hanging out downtown, whose numbers are growing every summer.

Some cliques or factions of Juggalos seem to be operating like a half-assed biker gang without the motorcycles and even less of a code of ethics. Women are treated as sex-drug objects and are treated badly in general. Outsiders are merely targets to be fleeced or stolen from. Even within the "subculture" they justify rampant thievery and crime as simply part of the game or Dark Carnival or whatever, that it's their right to take whatever they want to party because they've been treated like trash by basically everyone including their trashy parents/families.

I don't really think they should be given so much slack as just some random kids hanging out and enjoying some bad music as a subculture, because it's not just a harmless subculture. There is a pretty scary criminal/lawless element going on there that goes well beyond drinking Faygo and getting krunked.

Yeah, I know this all sounds like a lot of Nancy Reagan-esque ultraconservative hand-wringing and pearl clutching.

Look at who is writing it. I've been in dozens of weird subcultures in my life. I'm warning you that the Juggalos as a whole aren't safe to be around. They crossed the line into some kind of weird, stupid and dangerous street gang more than a few years ago. They're like some kind of weird, juvenile, emotionally stunted and damaged apocalyptic death cult just waiting for the excrement to hit the air conditioning so the real carnage and partying can begin.

Do not attempt to equate them to anything you've previously known as a harmless sub culture, because harmless isn't how I'd describe them at all.

I'm still really pissed at them for doing more to destroy Seattle's local OWS movement than the cops ever could.

The Juggalos deserve mocking for being so incredibly, appallingly unbelievably stupid, selfish, willfully ignorant and short sighted. Fuck them very much.

Nice lineup, though.
posted by loquacious at 10:55 AM on July 17, 2012 [37 favorites]


Living as I do near a theatre, its always interesting to see subcultures gather outside and try to guess who they are/mark the subtle differences between them

We do this too. Lebowskifest was obvious, but incredibly entertaining.

And you know what? I'm a physicist. Magnets are goddamn complicated and if you don't know what a Lorentz boost and rotation is, then I bet you don't know how they work, either.

That is kind of beside the point if you are Evangelical Christians like ICP. The song isn't about science being hard; it's about science being worthless. See also: songs about shooting sluts in the face.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:59 AM on July 17, 2012 [4 favorites]


One of my good friends played a set at the Gathering a few years ago. His experience included having bottles thrown at him, to the point his guitar was broken, but also some grudging 'Whoop whoops' for a ventriloquist set involving a Kermit the Frog doll he'd had in his van. I asked him the other day if he had any plans to return.

"Some things," he said, "you just chalk up as life lessons, and move on."
posted by palindromic at 11:18 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm warning you that the Juggalos as a whole aren't safe to be around.

It sounds like you've had a number of bad experiences with some of the worst elements of their scene. Maybe the bottling plant that ships Faygo to Seattle has been sending some particularly bad batches.

Where I live, they're mostly a bunch of stoned teenagers and twenty-somethings who like bright colors, escapist fantasy, and an affinity for the plastic rebellion on sale in head shops everywhere. They're mostly employed, often raising children, and generally not causing very much trouble for other people. So, yeah, mostly harmless.
posted by snottydick at 11:19 AM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


I judge the shit out of them, I make fun of them, and I could spend a lot of time deconstructing everything I find lame about their whole shtick, but that doesn't mean I can't also like them.
posted by snottydick at 12:43 on 7/17
[2 favorites +] [!]
Yeah, no. Maybe you do that? But mostly, it seems a large number of people mock these kids because they grew up too poor to develop a sophisticated set of aesthetics.
Look at who is writing it. I've been in dozens of weird subcultures in my life.
I don't see what this appeal to authority is supposed to prove? Sounds like a lot of people did some ugly crap in your city. But I don't think that means that a bunch of other people with the same tastes are somehow responsible.

How do you see group ownership of these actions?
That is kind of beside the point if you are Evangelical Christians like ICP. The song isn't about science being hard; it's about science being worthless. See also: songs about shooting sluts in the face.
First, I'd ask you to reconsider the point I was trying to make about performance. I know others have explained it better than I, so unless it's not clear what I'm referring to, I won't keep stumbling through that point.

Second -- so what? Evern if one were to accept that the statements about science were somehow sincere, so what? What would knowing about the Curie temperature do for someone who wasn't interested in it out o sheer curiosity? If these people have been left behind by society, a science education is probably not accessible to them. If I hadn't grown up with sufficient advantage to be science literate, I don't think I'd care, either. I am trained as and working as a condensed matter physicist, but I am not so arrogant as to believe someone who didn't care about the things I studied was in some way a bad person.

I submit that the don't-give-afuck attitude described in that song is not so radically different from that of most in the West today. Reading Wired and io9 doesn't count as serious science literacy, I'm afraid.

There's something to unpack about how many people on Twitter are retweeting the "Magnets, bitch!" line from the season premiere of 'Breaking Bad,' and feel completely comfortable with the character of Pinkerman since he is wrapped up in a work of art that has cultural currency in their circles. I wish I knew how many of those people had relentlessly mocked the ICP 'Rainbows' video.
posted by samofidelis at 11:22 AM on July 17, 2012


You still want people to at least respect science even if they don't care about it. They should understand that there are people who work really hard at understanding how magnets work and that there are or will be real, tangible benefits to them as a result. Otherwise we, as a society, stop advancing science, stop funding research, and stop creating opportunities for those who DO care to get a science education and be able to study and do research.
posted by VTX at 11:29 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


ICP has a long history of writing horrible song lyrics about beating and raping women and The Gathering in particular is notorious for the attendee's casual misogyny, so Juggalos can go fall in a hole thanks.
posted by jess at 11:32 AM on July 17, 2012 [3 favorites]


Argh, let's pretend I put that apostrophe in the right place, okay?
posted by jess at 11:32 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


it seems a large number of people mock these kids because they grew up too poor to develop a sophisticated set of aesthetics

Actually, most of the juggalos I've known were college students and came from middle-class backgrounds. The reason they lack a sophisticated set of aesthetics is because they're immersed in suburban mall culture. People come to that thing from a variety of places and for a variety of reasons.
posted by snottydick at 11:34 AM on July 17, 2012


There are physicists arguing in a thread about the Gathering of the Juggalos.

I freakin' love Metafilter.
posted by bondcliff at 11:35 AM on July 17, 2012 [15 favorites]


You still want people to at least respect science even if they don't care about it.

You're right, of course. However, there are far more significant movements to worry about, vis-a-vis science. Pick your fights.

I would personally suggest starting with the people who are constantly trying to control scientific advancement via legislation, rather than a group of dumbass kids trying to party. But hey, your mileage may vary. Maybe ragging on ICP is the best we can do to defend science these days.
posted by aramaic at 11:35 AM on July 17, 2012


VTX, I could tell you about how I got shot down because of my job by a young lady who works in advertising, who couldn't see why I didn't drop science to go into finance. This was a very smart, well educated woman saying this.

I don't think the Juggalos are the problem.
posted by samofidelis at 11:37 AM on July 17, 2012


A good person, too. I'm not trying to cast aspersions on her character. But science qua science largely doesn't matter two bits to most people. Technology, somewhat, but those are not interchangeable.
posted by samofidelis at 11:39 AM on July 17, 2012


I'm just shocked that the Fat Boyz haven't died of coronary disease yet!
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 11:40 AM on July 17, 2012


"... another fad boring people can latch on to so they can show the world how quirky they are."

Because no one actually likes anything. Especially stuff you don't happen to like. That would be CRAZY!
posted by kyrademon at 11:41 AM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


There's something to unpack about how many people on Twitter are retweeting the "Magnets, bitch!" line from the season premiere of 'Breaking Bad,' and feel completely comfortable with the character of Pinkerman since he is wrapped up in a work of art that has cultural currency in their circles.

Except in the show, Jesse goes from not giving a crap about making shitty meth, to learning and understanding (or at least trying to understand) the science/technique behind making it. So that comparison pretty much agrees with the point people are making, and to me anyways there's nothing to "unpack".
posted by inigo2 at 11:44 AM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'm still really pissed at them for doing more to destroy Seattle's local OWS movement than the cops ever could.

You let a bunch of juggalos ruin OWS? Really? You had that little control over what was going on? I mean, sure, maybe the Black Block anarchists might be a challenge to integrate and contain, but homeless juggalos?

And let's be brutal here. I've seen a lot of post-game analysis blaming homeless people in general for ruining various OWS camps. Dude, if you are going to camp out downtown, homeless people will be a part of your scene, and some of them will be really damn unsavory - addicts and the mentally ill and people who are not generally known for making good decisions, and living a life of desperation. Of course they were going to fuck things up if they weren't planned for. YOU were living in THEIR house, playing itinerants, while they were itinerants. I'm sorry they only saw you as an easy mark instead of noble champions, but welcome to the real world.

OWS failed because those leading it were ineffectual and naive, not because the juggalos are a secret gang.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:44 AM on July 17, 2012 [10 favorites]


I don't think the Juggalos are the problem.

They might not be the only problem, but that doesn't mean they're not a problem.
posted by inigo2 at 11:45 AM on July 17, 2012 [6 favorites]


Other than the tenuous OWS connection, we could have just run previous, previous or previous and no one would have noticed. Not plowing much new ground here.
posted by fixedgear at 11:48 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Do we need to link to those Feynman videos again? "Magnets, how the fuck do they work?" is not an actual question but it was supposed to be an example of something inexplicably mystical that ICP could use in their song that is a paean to God. There is obviously a point at which describing how magnets work will be to complex for the average Joe, but I'm not sure how that justifies the idea that people find it be so magical it's simply God power rather than forces that can actually be explained.

And, yes, people should take umbrage with that line and many other things they say because they have a large and willing audience who seem to take who they are very seriously and that should be tempered by real and factual criticism. You may handwave them away as a group and some wacky kids that follow them, but if they up and started a "permanent gathering" I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up with thousands of followers who would drink down the Faygo as fast as they could.
posted by Rocket Surgeon at 11:51 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


They hurt Tila Tequila. Fuck them.
posted by shushufindi at 11:52 AM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


I am disappointed to discover that I can no longer track down the original usage of the term "deep fried juggalos."
posted by lodurr at 11:53 AM on July 17, 2012


...And the 64 minute Freaky Tales can't hold a candle to the 64 minute Dark Star.

End the Deadhead comparisons right now.
posted by shushufindi at 11:56 AM on July 17, 2012


>Do not attempt to equate them to anything you've previously known as a harmless sub culture, because harmless isn't how I'd describe them at all.

Interesting, detailed perspective-- thanks.

My default view is Juggalos=Kids Being Kids=All Kids (even soft-eyed fairy-winged ravers) are Scary Clowns...

but perhaps it's wrong-headed to overlook the genuine particularities of specific groups in specific places at specific times.

I wonder how well the account given by loquacious matches up with the experience of others, in other places.
posted by darth_tedious at 11:56 AM on July 17, 2012


Hey, looks like the Juggalo's don't distinguish between "good" and "bad" drugs. I'm intrigued.
posted by telstar at 11:58 AM on July 17, 2012


Is it a rap/hip-hop thing to constantly re-introduce yourself, or is this crappy editing because the bits were recorded separately?

"Please welcome our next performer here to rock the mic, DJ Metafilter."
"What up, everyone? This is your boy, DJ Metafilter, and I'm here to rock the mic."

Yes, yes, we know who you are and what you're here to do. The guy before you told us so.

It's like an Oscars teleprompter gone horribly wrong.

"Please welcome the Academy Award-winning star of Black Swan, Natalie Portman, here to present the award for Best Original Screenplay."
"Hello, everyone. I'm Natalie Portman, the Academy Award-winning star of Black Swan. I'm here to present the award for Best Original Screenplay."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:59 AM on July 17, 2012


Except in the show, Jesse goes from not giving a crap about making shitty meth, to learning and understanding (or at least trying to understand) the science/technique behind making it. So that comparison pretty much agrees with the point people are making, and to me anyways there's nothing to "unpack".
posted by inigo2 at 13:44 on July 17 [+] [!]
It's not about whether or not he can make good crystal; it's about his sense of aesthetics, how he speaks, the signifiers in how he dresses and behaves and everything about how he presents himself to the world. This isn't some kind of Good People Like Science\Bad People Don't argument; it's about why so many people are willing to mock these other people, who also conspicuously seem to come from lower socioeconomic strata -- though not always, of course.

Having Good Taste (TM) has cultural capital. I think it's gross, but what you choose to consume is now considered a creative act by a great many people.
posted by samofidelis at 12:12 PM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


I still don't see how the Gathering of the Juggalos is any stupider than Burning Man.
posted by MrBadExample at 12:15 PM on July 17, 2012 [11 favorites]


I have grudging respect for ICP because they've made a ton of money and built their own subculture their own way. Their wrestling promotion outlasted a major one for whom they once performed and is reputed to be the most reliable paycheck in the indies. Their merchandise is all over Spencer's and Hot Topic in malls coast-to-coast. They attract actual name artists to perform at the Gatherings. They pull pro wrestlers, porn stars and legit actors into their films. They run toy drives for kids at Christmastime. They've kept the gravy train flowing for over two decades and it's arguably getting stronger.

They built all of this out of their musical niche of songs about murder, rape, drugs and other profanities, then turned it around and reinvented themselves at the climax of their album cycle as Christian rappers who weren't ashamed to be leading their fans to find God. AND THE FANBASE STAYED and even GREW. Fuck magnets, how does THAT work? That's a goddamned magic trick Houdini couldn't pull off.

Now if they could just make music that wasn't so, so, so, SO shitty that it defies measurement.
posted by delfin at 12:23 PM on July 17, 2012 [7 favorites]


Fuckin' physicists; how do they work?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 12:30 PM on July 17, 2012


They are inherently ridiculous and participating in one will result in ridicule. It doesn't make it not fun or not okay, but you ought to have a sense of humor about yourself if you're going to be playing dress-up and joining a herd.

I don't know how many people here actually watched TFVideo, but one of the apexes of this event is a huge dance party where everybody watches a Michael Jackson cover band perform while free cheeseburgers, hot dogs and soda get catapulted into the crowd.

I find it hard to believe that most Juggalos don't have at least some sense of self-parody and the sheer power of silliness.
posted by Shepherd at 12:49 PM on July 17, 2012


I believe they are the children of the Sturgis biker crews. It is in their blood to travel to distant states, whore around and experience altered states. I was in the Black Hills once a week before the onslaught and everyone was battening down the hatches. They said the hills rang all night with the sound of Harleys, but they all made so much money that week renting out any spot that was rentable, they thought it was worth it.

I can't imagine how the citizens of Cave-in-Rock feel. The Juggalos don't appear to be as spendy.
posted by readery at 12:54 PM on July 17, 2012


Fuck magnets, how does THAT work?

That just became my favorite exclamation for a wide variety of use cases.

"Wait, the city council voted to de-fund the fire departments budget and nobody said anything? Fuck magnets, how does THAT work?"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:56 PM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


I can't imagine how the citizens of Cave-in-Rock feel. The Juggalos don't appear to be as spendy.

What you lose in the profit margin of Faygo, you make up for in volume.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:57 PM on July 17, 2012


I still don't see how the Gathering of the Juggalos is any stupider than Burning Man.

We could start with the fact that you'd be hard pressed to find a juggalo who could make the simplest shit they flaunt at burning man, but somehow i think that's now what you mean by "smart."
posted by lodurr at 12:59 PM on July 17, 2012


cool papa bell: people really drink faygo in volume comparable to beer?
posted by lodurr at 1:00 PM on July 17, 2012


~ RIP ASS DAN ~

posted by boo_radley at 1:01 PM on July 17, 2012 [8 favorites]


<post type="annual">Juggalos ain't so bad. Kind of like 'em, myself.</post>
posted by Fezboy! at 1:05 PM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


cool papa bell: people really drink faygo in volume comparable to beer?

At the Gathering, they shower in Faygo.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:05 PM on July 17, 2012


I will take your word for that, and endeavor never to think of it again.
posted by lodurr at 1:06 PM on July 17, 2012


Never met a real Juggalo but in my mind after hearing stories and misconceptions, I picture Good Guy Greg.
posted by stormpooper at 1:51 PM on July 17, 2012


At the Gathering, they shower in Faygo.

That's not what is meant n by the 5-2-1 rule.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 2:03 PM on July 17, 2012


I'm pretty sure that if I was born and raised in a dying town, no real hope for the future, raised on WWF, horror films and infomercials I would be a Juggalo.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:04 PM on July 17, 2012


You let a bunch of juggalos ruin OWS? Really? You had that little control over what was going on? I mean, sure, maybe the Black Block anarchists might be a challenge to integrate and contain, but homeless juggalos?

Yeah, welcome to Seattle where passive-aggressiveness tends to be really passive and non-confrontational political correctness ends up with ridiculous general assembly motions that are tabled and passed like "Don't talk to cops! Ever!"

It's a lot more complicated than that. What I was saying was that the Juggalos did more direct damage to OWS here in Seattle than the cops themselves did, not that they single-handedly ruined it.

I wasn't camping out with Seattle's OWS because of the lack of space and because my apartment was so close it just made more sense to go home to sleep, but I was both down at Westlake and at SCCC's late encampment cooking, doing cleanup and trash patrol.

After the second time I was stuck with an uncapped hypodermic needle I stopped doing trash patrol because fuck all of that.

I'm certainly not a stranger to homelessness, either, having personally experienced more times in my life then I've actually been housed. If anything I'm an itinerant to non-homelessness.

A lot of those juggalo kids downtown actually have homes, often out in the burbs. If anything they're the itinerants and tourists who come to congregate in downtown because they can make money selling drugs and get away with shenanigans they wouldn't get away with in Kent or White Center or wherever. They're not actually part of the indigenous urban homeless population. They prey on it and hide among it.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that there are valid reasons why "Juggalo" is listed on FBI's gang identification lists in almost every state in the US, but Burning Man attendees or Deadheads or Phish heads aren't on that list. I maintain that core Juggalo cliques functionally operate a lot like motorcycle gangs, albeit leaderless and non-traditional in structure.

I'm not someone who usually says things like "fuck that group of people". People who know me and know my history know this. I'm saying it for a good reason. Juggalos as a class and a "clique" or "gang" operates outside of just liking silly clothes and music - there's a fair amount of danger there. It is not something that is directly transferable to other music-based subcultures, nor plain old hedonism.

I just got a memail from a PNW native who used to hang with them and he's mystified as to why MeFi is so quick to defend Juggalos as kids just being kids and he agrees with my callout. He writes: "seriously, juggalos are like sub-oogle oogles in the land of street weirdos"

So, yeah. No. I'm not buying into this garbage. I don't have to tolerate it or accept it as kids just being kids. This isn't a healthy creative subculture. It's a cultural cancer where misogyny and sexism aren't only accepted, but encouraged. Where anti-intellectualism wrapped in a carnival cult and broken fragments and shards of fundamental Christianity is considered "free thinking".

It's like some kind of Hot Topic mall cargo cult gone terribly wrong with rapidly developing and escalating criminal elements.

Sure, it may be a product of mall culture and corporate chain stores for everything and a lack of real education and opportunities. I understand that, and I empathize and sympathize.

That doesn't mean that these feral kids (and adults) get a free cultural pass to rape, steal and destroy everyone and everything around them, which if you actually listen to or read the lyrics of the Psychopathic Records "family" is exactly what they're often talking about - grabbing whatever they want because they're just so abandoned and misunderstood or some shit.

Bullshit, I say.
posted by loquacious at 2:17 PM on July 17, 2012 [14 favorites]


I've been reading loquacious for a long time and this is not the way he usually writes. My personal bias is to take him at his word on this.
posted by lodurr at 2:28 PM on July 17, 2012 [3 favorites]


They openly deal drugs downtown while hanging out with their dogs on strings, and from the stories I've heard buying from them is apparently at best a great way to get ripped off - or worse, mugged.

These are the same kids that were the primary non-police factor that utterly destroyed the local Occupy Seattle movement from the inside out.

These were the kids who treated OWS like an open street party who were tweaking, smoking crack, using IV drugs and walking around with open containers of alcohol. These are the same kids that were going around with official looking donation boxes and taking off with the money - sometimes thousands of dollars.

One of these little rip off shits was high on street ecstasy when the SPD raided the first tent city occupation at Westlake - he was carrying a number of pills that he ended up eating all at once to destroy the evidence as his tent was being torn down around him. I know all of this because later that night he showed up in my neighborhood hanging out with a neighbor bragging about it while still high as a kite. This same kid was being sought by OWS folks for missing donations exceeding $1-2k that were allegedly "safe" in his motel room. He left to "go get it" and never returned. He didn't even live in Seattle, and said he was from Portland, but somehow I doubt that's the entire story.


They sound like Goonfleet.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:34 PM on July 17, 2012


I admit loquacious's writing on this subject is really persuasive and tempting for me to buy into. Then I do experiments like replace the Juggalos he's talking about with, say, drug-addicted petty thief gutterpunks in the 70's-80's and decrying certain strains/subcultures of punk as a result and things get more confusing.
posted by naju at 3:04 PM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I've also been reading loquacious's remarks on Metafilter for years, and he always seems like a mensch. But I can't get past this argument --

"to rape, steal and destroy everyone and everything around them, which if you actually listen to or read the lyrics of the Psychopathic Records "family" is exactly what they're often talking about"

-- which is like, Tipper Gore boilerplate. I don't think rap music makes kids bad. I have yet to take anyone's nuts and put them on a dresser and hit them shits with a spiked bat like BLAOW.

But, like I said, I think loquacious is a real mensch, and I can't reconcile my argument with that, so I think I have to retire. I'm going to go make four more killer tapes.
posted by samofidelis at 3:09 PM on July 17, 2012


Regardless of the rest of his argument, I learned what an "oogle" is from loquacious today. I always just called 'em crust punks or crusties, but apparently "oogle" is a more pejorative term, if that's your thing.
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:24 PM on July 17, 2012


Is it a rap/hip-hop thing to constantly re-introduce yourself

I require affirmation, knawmean?

Word, true.
posted by box at 3:24 PM on July 17, 2012


I have grudging respect for ICP because they've made a ton of money and built their own subculture

You'd be hard pressed to find a juggalo who could make the simplest shit they flaunt at burning man

This isn't a healthy creative subculture.... It's like some kind of Hot Topic mall cargo cult


The Juggalo subculture is among the least creative, least DIY, most top-down ones imaginable. Goth kids make clothes. Hip-hop kids make beats. Punk rock kids book their own lives. Hell, even crust punks hand-poke facial tattoos and shit. Juggalo kids just chant and buy merch.

(As longtime members may recall, I made a very similar rant back in the '09 Gathering post.)
posted by box at 3:41 PM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


which is like, Tipper Gore boilerplate. I don't think rap music makes kids bad. I have yet to take anyone's nuts and put them on a dresser and hit them shits with a spiked bat like BLAOW.

Yeah, I know. It's actually painful for me to write like that. Sure, it even has my patented hyperbole - dilute as needed. I sound like I just got hella old and I'm just bitching about the kids on my lawn.

I'm not.

Yeah, like any subcultures your mileage may vary - and, yes, I am painting with a wide brush - but I'm not basing this just on my interactions or observations of Juggalos here in Seattle. I've been aware of them as a subculture for over a decade.

I'm basing this on my observations of self-proclaimed ninjas and hatchet-kids - klown bumz as the Mefite who msg'ed me and who used to hang out with some of them called them - in cities like San Francisco, LA, Portland, Arizona and Vancouver, WA. I'm basing it on the mayhem and bullshit that happened whenever some of them managed to find a party or music event I was involved with.

We're talking glass bottles being indiscriminately flung into a crowd dozens of times over a few short hours all by the same maliciously crazy girl, intentionally smashed toilets, arson attempts (in a crowded venue, no less), women getting groped, molested or taken advantage of when they've had too much to drink, worse.

I have hung out with bikers, tweakers, crackheads and all kinds of riff raff and miscreants. I've lived with gutter punks and eaten out of dumpsters with them and slept behind those same dumpsters.

It's not the same old thing. Below the surface of the random mall rat Juggalos that most people are familiar with is some really fucked up shit.

I have yet to meet any "youth culture" affinity group that was so fucked up and so ready and willing to steal from and fuck over anyone and everyone - including their own - and fuck things up for everyone.

Here, let me put it another way: I'd feel much more comfortable about letting a local and long past hope crackhead or junkie crash at my apartment than I would any of the hardcore Juggalo kids. At least the crackhead is predictable.

I'm not pulling a Tipper Gore and saying that the music itself is responsible - but the reinforced message from that music certainly isn't helping.

I will say that it's a product of their culture and lack of opportunities or privilege and a complete lack of cultural education - no arguments there at all.

And unlike Tipper I'm also not calling for censorship or banning ICP logos or any such crap - I know well enough that that never works.

All I'm trying to say to people reading this thread is that it's not the same old subculture wars, or the same old bullshit, and that you shouldn't automatically just assume it's all harmless because other supposedly scary subcultures were mainly harmless.

I'm not othering them because they're ridiculous. I'm trying to warn people that a whole lot of these klown bum ninja kids are actively malicious and dangerous. If I were a parent it would be absolutely verboten for my kids to hang out with them. I'd much rather they went to a GG Allin show wearing a suit made out of meat and feces.
posted by loquacious at 3:44 PM on July 17, 2012 [5 favorites]


hey there i wrote loq about klown bumz. i can't vouch for how messed up they are as grown-ups but the juggalo kids were a malignantly screwy group in high school. the song Thy Unveiling cracks me up but you couldn't get me to kick it with a group of self-identified juggalos, there is bad craziness there that strikes me as worse than crusty shenanigans. this also seems to have gotten worse as the kids i knew who were into the clown in high school got older but didn't do a great job growing up.

i did get an invitation to the gathering in 2003 and i sometimes wonder, should i have gone? it would have been a weird, gross, possibly interesting time.


just a quick off-topic aside, oogle is not a catchall term for crusty kids, but is a term of insult among crusty street folks for clueless crusty folks. there is also an amazing NFSW tumblr.
posted by beefetish at 4:10 PM on July 17, 2012 [2 favorites]


I feel like I'm entering a running argument here, and trying to understand what is going on after the opening salvos have been fired, and the introduction long gone. Can someone fill me in? My understanding of Juggalos is that they are rather hardcore followers of Insane Clown Posse, a band that openly revels in misogynistic and violent lyrics. Do I have this right?

And the crux of the argument is whether they are just another subculture looked down upon by society, or if they are violet hooligans. Do I have that right?

Am I missing anything?
posted by Canageek at 5:55 PM on July 17, 2012


Would they be violent hooligans if ICP didn't exist? What would deadheads have done if the Dead had never existed. Would they have followed some different band or just stayed home. Would the very same people be causing the same problems, just without the trappings of being a Juggalo ?
posted by Ad hominem at 6:03 PM on July 17, 2012


The Gathering looks like it could be a really fun time. The participants have such an endearing enthusiasm.
posted by beau jackson at 6:16 PM on July 17, 2012


The defenders of what appears to be normative behavior for juvenile delinquents need to re-read the contributions of loquacious. I am quite surprised that one would have to literally lower there own status to such a degree to make the argument that this particular sacred sub-culture merits more than a simple scoffing -meh.
posted by vozworth at 6:41 PM on July 17, 2012


Let me rephrase what I said above:

I have grudging respect for ICP because they've made a ton of money and built their own subculture.

There is a difference between that and having respect for those IN the subculture.

A fool and his money are soon parted. Sometimes it's good just to be talented at parting them.
posted by delfin at 6:51 PM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


What would deadheads have done if the Dead had never existed.

What a fascinating question.

The Dead were never the most popular band, even at their peak, but what they were doing was touring, relentlessly, year-over-year, which creates an opportunity for following. If you look at their contemporaries at one point in time, you see bands that broke up, spun out of control, ventured into new sounds, or (Hendrix, Joplin) died young (put The Doors into that category, too). The super-popular contemporary bands that could have had the same kind of following if they tried -- the Who, the Stones, Pink Floyd, etc -- simply never tried. At least not to the degree of the Dead. Probably because they were making so much money on record sales, which the Dead never did to the same degree. Other artists in other genres relied on nightclub/dancehall appeal, not translatable to, say, three-day stands at outdoor concert venues.

So, I don't think there are deadheads without the Dead. There was no other popular contemporary band with that kind of art, internal structure or touring strategy. There's no obvious way that the deadhead audience could have conceivably rallied around another band in sufficient numbers, over sufficient dates, over sufficient time, to reach a critical mass.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:47 PM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Is this the thread where I post a link to the Juggalo Song?
posted by MikeMc at 7:55 PM on July 17, 2012


You let a bunch of juggalos ruin OWS? Really? You had that little control over what was going on? I mean, sure, maybe the Black Block anarchists might be a challenge to integrate and contain, but homeless juggalos?

Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea just what it took to keep order in the OWS camps when the use of force was (naturally) verboten?
posted by ocschwar at 8:12 PM on July 17, 2012



Do we need to link to those Feynman videos again? "Magnets, how the fuck do they work?" is not an actual question but it was supposed to be an example of something inexplicably mystical that ICP could use in their song that is a paean to God.


Followed up by a line declaring scientific inquiry to be anathema.

Fuck that.
posted by ocschwar at 8:13 PM on July 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well, to balance out the experiences loquacious and others have had (and let me clarify - i'm not diminishing them, just offering my own experience from a different place and group of Juggalos), i'll re-link my post from the last Gathering thread.

It's my personal experience so obviously doesn't speak to any generalised view of Juggalos.

(And to add to that - one of the guys mentioned in that post is currently sitting in my living room, shooting the shit with Mr Pseudo, after having spent his afternoon clearing all the palm fronds out of my backyard for me because he knows bugs and spiders scare the living hell out of me.

Good Guy Juggalos exist, y'all.)
posted by pseudonymph at 1:36 AM on July 18, 2012 [2 favorites]


What would deadheads have done if the Dead had never existed.

Dude, you just, like, hurt my brain.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 4:43 AM on July 18, 2012


All I'm trying to say to people reading this thread is that it's not the same old subculture wars, or the same old bullshit, and that you shouldn't automatically just assume it's all harmless because other supposedly scary subcultures were mainly harmless

The punks and skinheads, non-racist and otherwise, were not harmless. They were self-destructive, violent and dangerous, to themselves and others in a way those who didn't live through it can't understand, and some who did tend to focus on the music and gloss over the brawls and beatdowns.

Check out SLC Punk sometime - it's a rosy reminiscence, and it's still astonishingly violent.

The juggalos, at least out here on the east coast, are mostly poor and/or marginalized kids hanging out together. They sometimes don't make the best life decisions, but they're just not on the same plane as punk or Oi.

Much like the 70's and early 80's, we are in the middle of an economic armageddon that's particularly affecting youth and the working class... the gap between haves and have-nots is growing, opportunity for even middle class kids has dried up. Fix that, and the juggalo "problem" will take care of itself. Cure the disease, not the symptom.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:58 AM on July 18, 2012 [2 favorites]


Linking without comment: http://juggalosonokcupid.tumblr.com/
posted by naju at 1:43 PM on July 18, 2012


I'm not surprised that a physicist would defend someone's ignorance or lack of interest in science. Lots of physics can be very, very difficult to understand, and people have different tastes.

I am, however, surprised that a physicist would say that one shouldn't make fun of a song by an evangelical Christian that says there must be a God, because the singer doesn't understand how magnets work, although he has specifically said he doesn't want a scientific explanation in the first place.

I am also surprised that the reasons given that one shouldn't make fun of that song are:
1) The evangelical Christian singing it is putting on a persona of a violent and misogynistic evangelical Christian
2) Other people don't know about science either

I can't really bring myself to believe that samofidelis would defend a televangelist who said "There must be a god, because otherwise how could plants get energy from the sun? And don't start talking about photosynthesis, scientists are liars." I'm not really sure why putting it to music makes it suddenly above ridicule.
posted by Bugbread at 5:20 PM on July 18, 2012


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