Shooting at Batman Premiere outside Denver
July 20, 2012 2:37 AM   Subscribe

A gas-masked perpetrator entered an Aurora, CO movie theater during the midnight premiere of The Dark Knight Rises, threw a smoke bomb and began shooting. Police in Aurora report that 14 are dead, and up to 50 others are injured. The lone gunman is believed to be in police custody.

Columbine High School, site of a mass shooting 13 years ago, sits 20 miles to the west.
posted by pjenks (1569 comments total) 34 users marked this as a favorite
 


This Reddit post/thread is a good source for a summary of the latest updates and collection of relevant links.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


What. The. Fuck.
posted by 1adam12 at 2:45 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


MSNBC are reporting that there are children, possibly an infant, among the wounded or dead.

.
posted by fight or flight at 2:45 AM on July 20, 2012


I logged on this morning to read some accounts of the various midnight premiers. Ha-ha, I thought, I bet there were some cool costumes!

And then I read this news story.

What. the. hell. is. wrong. with. some. people?

Hearts and hopes to the victims.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:46 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


I am reading here that there were two gunmen. Misreport?
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:47 AM on July 20, 2012


Yes, misreport according to the Denver Post link. Answered my own question.

Thoughts to the victims and their families and friends.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:49 AM on July 20, 2012




I'd just gotten home from a ~9-hour Batman marathon at my local movie theater (in a completely different city) and was settling in for a night of reading reviews and debating plot points with other fanboys/fangirls online when I stumbled across this horrifying news story.

My husband and I always try to attend the midnight premieres of all the "geek" movies -- it's one of our favorite rituals in our marriage. The thought of a dozen or more people being senselessly massacred in that very same situation... fuck... I mean... just... fuck.

I'm never leaving the house again. :(
posted by Jacqueline at 2:53 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


According to the reddit thread, 2 explosive devices have been found (and disarmed) in a car and an SUV outside the theater and bomb-making materials were found in the main suspect's apartment.

BBC story with live updates.
posted by fight or flight at 3:03 AM on July 20, 2012


"I am reading here that there were two gunmen. Misreport?"

My current understanding from what I'm reading/hearing is that they now believe that there may be only one shooter, and that initial reports of two gunmen may have been due to the single shooter either opening fire in two adjacent theaters or that shots fired in one theater might have penetrated the shared wall and entered the second theater (or were at least very audible, leading to the perception that shots were being fired in that room as well).

It seems like it has been a very chaotic scene and it'll probably be at least a day until we've got a good timeline of what happened and when. For example, earlier tonight there was a comment in the Reddit thread about the police having a suspect at gunpoint and then a follow-up comment that it was just the mall janitor. So basically you should probably take every detail with a big grain of salt until these sorts of interim pseudo-updates are sorted out.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:05 AM on July 20, 2012


As I understand it, there won't be an official update until 11 AM. I'm listening to the stream. Currently some lawn sprinklers are washing away parts of the crime scene and they can't find anyone to shut them off.

Also, someone was involved in an unrelated robbery and the weapon was either a gun or a pop (soda) can.
posted by dirigibleman at 3:09 AM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by victory_laser at 3:12 AM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by Vibrissae at 3:13 AM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by Yma at 3:15 AM on July 20, 2012


Fourteen dead and at least twenty people with gunshot wounds.

So at a minimum he fired 34 shots. Almost certainly more. Many more.

Which means multiple clips and probably multiple weapons. Throw in the bulletproof vest he was wearing and the very disturbing picture of a person who is killing just to be killing emerges. God I hope I'm wrong about that. I want him to be some twisted ideologue so that this will make sense in some way. Even the most evil of purposes would be preferable to finding out that this was slaughter for the sake of slaughter.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:23 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


.
posted by Gorgik at 3:27 AM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by jann at 3:28 AM on July 20, 2012


A six-year old is among the injured, per 9News Denver.
posted by BobbyVan at 3:30 AM on July 20, 2012


Fifteen now confirmed dead.

This is really terrible and senseless.

I'll be really pissed if it turns out there's some kind of connection to Limbaugh's conspiracy theory bullshit.
posted by SteveInMaine at 3:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'll be really pissed if it turns out there's some kind of connection to Limbaugh's conspiracy theory bullshit.

I would like to suggest that until we have some kind of idea of why this happened, we refrain from speculation.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:31 AM on July 20, 2012 [63 favorites]


ABC's Jake Tapper: At 5:26 am ET, POTUS was notified of the shooting in Aurora, Colorado, by homeland security adviser John Brennan.
posted by BobbyVan at 3:35 AM on July 20, 2012


Guardian live updates have information from the police press briefing that they have a 24-year-old male in custody. The police are concerned about explosives in the parking lot.

.
posted by tykky at 3:35 AM on July 20, 2012


.

One 24 year old male is in Police Custody according to the BBC stream.

Whats particularly difficult to hear is that people in the theatre and the ajoining theatre though it 'was all part of the show'.
posted by numberstation at 3:36 AM on July 20, 2012


Whats particularly difficult to hear is that people in the theatre and the ajoining theatre though it 'was all part of the show'.

Yeah, the witness in the Askreddit thread mentioned that it happened during a gunfight scene, so at first people thought the shots and smoke were special effects.
posted by fight or flight at 3:39 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


"Whats particularly difficult to hear is that people in the theatre and the ajoining theatre though it 'was all part of the show'."

Well, there *are* a lot of gunshots and explosions in the movie. The shooter may have waited for a particularly noisy action scene to open fire so that his extraneous gunshots wouldn't be noticed and reacted to as quickly.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:41 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


numberstation : Whats particularly difficult to hear is that people in the theatre and the ajoining theatre though it 'was all part of the show'.

I find that hard to believe - Unlike "Hollywood" gunfights where you can just blow through clip after clip in an elevator with no hearing protection, even the quieter of real guns report in the 140db range. In a closed room, even a large one like a theatre, that loud of a noise will outright stun you if you don't expect it, with some degree of permanent hearing loss likely, not just possible.

Maybe people from the next few rooms could believe it part of the show, but not in the same room.
posted by pla at 3:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


This is awful.
posted by carter at 3:42 AM on July 20, 2012


What is wrong with people?

I do not want to presume mental illness here. It may have been pure politics. It may well have been some terrible protest against nothing worth killing over.

But if there was mental illness involved, can we please discuss the fact that people having psychotic episodes with long, documented histories of mental illness nonetheless seem to have no problem getting guns? Can that discussion be put on the table? Or have we really decided, as a nation, that our love affair with machines of death is so important that no loophole may ever be closed, no illegal sale of weapon ever be seriously investigated, and nobody ever refused a gun, regardless of their intentions.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 3:45 AM on July 20, 2012 [52 favorites]


Holy shit.

I haven't been able to fall asleep because of insomnia, now I won't be able to sleep aftere reading this.

There were probably a ton of kids there too. So senseless and horrible. just have no words...
posted by littlesq at 3:53 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Can the US finally manage to get a sensible gun policy now?
posted by Omon Ra at 3:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [22 favorites]


Bunny: Given that lots of people still get their hands on drugs that are illegal for *everyone* to possess, why are you surprised that some people are able to get their hands on guns that are only illegal for *some* people to possess?

Also, when was the last time you went gun shopping? It's actually a lot more difficult to buy a firearm than you seem to perceive it to be. Cherry-picking a handful of edge cases and treating them as if they're representative of the whole market is hyperbole and counterproductive to a serious policy discussion.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [31 favorites]


Over our dead bodies, Omon Ra.
posted by crunchland at 3:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Can the US finally manage to get a sensible gun policy now?

Naw bro cuz that same policy allowed all those patrons/victims/poor moviegoers the ability to arm themselves and return fire. If anything this is just proof that the gun laws are TOO strict.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


My heart goes out to the victims and families involved in this.

I don't know what else to say about something like this, it's terrible.

The impact this is going to have on the movie industry and entertainment venues in general is going to be long lasting. Welcome to TSA for entertainment.
posted by HuronBob at 4:01 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


God dammit.

The capacity for human violence is stunning and horrifying. Dozen of people dead and harmed because they went to see a movie. What makes someone decide to do something like this? I've been depressed and angry at the world before, but it's never once crossed my mind that something like this would be the solution to my problems. The conception of such a great loss of life just leaves me numb. Why would someone do this?
posted by arcolz at 4:03 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Also, when was the last time you went gun shopping? It's actually a lot more difficult to buy a firearm than you seem to perceive it to be.

The last time I lived in Omaha, pretty much anybody could buy a gun from somebody else at a gun swap, or out of the back of their truck. Hell, I used to own a rifle and a shotgun that I bought outright from somebody's closet. No check on my history, no need to register.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:04 AM on July 20, 2012 [19 favorites]


A Denver resident on Reddit has a comprehensive timeline of events, although it's worth noting that the Reddit mods are pulling down threads about the shooting in an effort to keep discussion in one place, so it might disappear. The witness on Askreddit has also had her post deleted/removed (although this might be because it was a fake).
posted by fight or flight at 4:05 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]




> if there was mental illness involved, can we please discuss the fact that people having psychotic episodes with long, documented histories of mental illness nonetheless seem to have no problem getting guns?

I both agree with you and think this is a bad place to have that discussion because it's going to lead to a hell of a derail with snarling and infighting that will make the mods pray for a day off. Maybe MeTa or a new thread specifically relevant to gun control is better.
posted by ardgedee at 4:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


Shit, what the fuck. I've got quite a few friends in Denver; an organisation I was quite involved with for a while is based there. I hope they're ok. :(

.
posted by divabat at 4:14 AM on July 20, 2012


I would like to suggest that doing the guns and politics dog and pony show in this thread is a shockingly horrible idea and should not be pursued by anyone, seriously, because think about it, what the fuck.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [45 favorites]


That is terrifying. I don't even...
posted by nile_red at 4:19 AM on July 20, 2012


My brain is still processing this. I just can't even begin to imagine the nightmare it must've been to be in that theater. Those poor people. Those poor victims. Those poor families.


I learned about this horrible event when my clock radio went off this morning. The morning zoo DJs gave the basics, everyone murmured their sympathy, and then, swear to god, the main DJ goes,

"Welp! We've survived to another Friday! WOOOOOOOO!"


I hope they fire the insensitive fucknugget, but given the fact that the rest of the idiots in the studio joined in the WOOO, I'm not hopeful.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:19 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


How sad is it that I was relieved to learn that the suspect is a white male. I can't even imagine what would have been incited in the United States if it were a Muslim or a person of colour.
posted by gman at 4:21 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


.
posted by caddis at 4:21 AM on July 20, 2012


How sad is it that I was relieved to learn that the suspect is a white male. I can't even imagine what would have been incited in the United States if it were a Muslim or a person of colour.

Who could ever forget the race riots and lynchings after the capture of the snipers who terrorized the DC area a few years back?
posted by BobbyVan at 4:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [36 favorites]


Can that discussion be put on the table? Or have we really decided, as a nation, that our love affair with machines of death is so important that no loophole may ever be closed, no illegal sale of weapon ever be seriously investigated, and nobody ever refused a gun, regardless of their intentions.

Even as we speak, the NRA is preparing a press release that says that this tragedy could have been prevented if everyone in the audience had been armed. Because we all know the best way to stop shootings in a dark crowded smoke-filled room is more guns.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:26 AM on July 20, 2012 [29 favorites]


I can't even imagine what would have been incited in the United States if it were a Muslim or a person of colour.

Mass murder is not restricted to any particular race or creed. Seung-Hui Cho was responsible for the Virginia Tech massacre, for instance, and Colin Ferguson, a Jamaican, killed six and injured nineteen on a Long Island commuter train.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:29 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


.
posted by Mooski at 4:31 AM on July 20, 2012


I would like to suggest that doing the guns and politics dog and pony show in this thread is a shockingly horrible idea and should not be pursued by anyone, seriously, because think about it, what the fuck.

I have been thinking about it, because sensible gun control laws could have prevented this person from being able to murder 15 people and injure dozens more. Of course I don't want it to turn into pure partisan bickering, which it probably will anyway, but when else should we talk about it? No one seems to care talking about it any other day because we live in a nation desensitized to gun violence. Individual gun homicides barely make the news, and when they do, it's statistical information instead of an opportunity to talk about why military grade assault weapons are so easily available to people who frankly shouldn't be allowed to have them.

There will be another round of hand-wringing about exposure to violence on TV, violent video games, and all kinds of nonsense. We all know that's on the way. So why not talk about things that would actually make a difference, like a ban on assault weapons and more stringent gun control laws?

I think considering reasonable policy changes to prevent tragedies like this one from happening again is a perfectly rational response and worthy of discussion.
posted by deanklear at 4:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [59 favorites]


I'm surprised that the police managed to refrain from killing the suspect and instead took him into custody. Not complaining; just surprised that the gunman managed to surrender without getting himself shot.
posted by ceribus peribus at 4:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


I'm surprised that the police managed to refrain from killing the suspect and instead took him into custody.

Really? Really?
posted by alby at 4:34 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Even as we speak, the NRA is preparing a press release -- I frequently use the a page that's no longer on any menu over at TalkingPointsMemo ... it's a page that collects the tweets of various political insiders, as well as the press. The Republican Insiders page includes the NRA twitter feed, and I've noticed that after an event like this, they stay quiet for a short time, usually about a day -- as if they're laying low. And then they pop up and start their usual spouting off about how would-be victims of crime end up fighting off the criminal with their perfectly legal weapon. It's pathetic.
posted by crunchland at 4:35 AM on July 20, 2012


Slap*Happy: Mass murder is not restricted to any particular race or creed.

That's part of my point. But are you telling me that you don't think there'd be a very different reaction if the perpetrator were Muslim?
posted by gman at 4:36 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Maybe we could wait and find out whether or not he acquired his guns legally before we speculate as to whether or not gun control would have kept them out of his hands.

Seriously, we know basically nothing right now; baseless speculation accomplishes nothing. Let's not derail the thread with fights and controversy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:37 AM on July 20, 2012 [24 favorites]


Omon Ra: "Can the US finally manage to get a sensible gun policy now?"

Not gonna happen. That issue is so baked into American culture that it's never going to change.
posted by octothorpe at 4:38 AM on July 20, 2012


Completely horrifying.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:42 AM on July 20, 2012


That's part of my point. But are you telling me that you don't think there'd be a very different reaction if the perpetrator were Muslim?

We've had one of those in recent years as well. The only difference is that he's being tried as a terrorist, because he expressed a political motivation. There has been no pogrom of middle-eastern folks.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:44 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


A good proportion of the time, the gunman does himself in, and not the police. (And it's a sad commentary that shit like this has happened so frequently that we're discussing the way these things normally go.)
posted by crunchland at 4:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Maybe we could wait and find out whether or not he acquired his guns legally before we speculate as to whether or not gun control would have kept them out of his hands.

When everyone else in town has a gun -- when everyone else in his family has a gun -- it's easy for any nut to get a gun. You can't control guns for a tiny handful of people and simultaneously encourage everyone else to own and carry them.
posted by pracowity at 4:48 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


Holy shit, that is only a couple of miles from where I used to live. What is going on with kids in Colorado?
posted by Kimberly at 4:50 AM on July 20, 2012


Why? Why? Why?

My thoughts and prayers are with everyone impacted.
posted by kinnakeet at 4:51 AM on July 20, 2012


As I have gotten older, I have managed to learn a few things. One of them is that when it comes to stuff like this, you will never be able to find any reason or cause for the actions of an individual like this killer that ever makes any real sense. It's just not there.
posted by dglynn at 4:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


"Managed to refrain" was poor wording on my part. What I mean is, once shots have already been fired, I'm surprised he wasn't taken down immediately in order to prevent more deaths. The gunman must have taken great care to somehow surrender in a nonthreatening manner.
posted by ceribus peribus at 4:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


.
posted by Foosnark at 4:52 AM on July 20, 2012


The 9NEWS live feed announced that the death toll had been revised down to 12. At least that's something.
posted by Rhomboid at 4:55 AM on July 20, 2012


It is very difficult to have a thoughtful, constructive policy debate in the same thread in which people are processing their immediate emotional responses to a shocking tragedy. It's the internet equivalent of walking into an E.R. waiting room and passing out campaign literature.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [28 favorites]


We've had a bad summer of shootings here in Toronto the past few months. So this is not the type of news that I want to wake up to. Everyone in Ontario is hyper-aware of these types of news stories at the moment and there is much discussion about gun control laws, gang violence, etc.

My thoughts are with those who are affected by this horrific incident.
posted by Fizz at 4:58 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


With 50 injured, it's going to go back up again before the day's out - and keep going up over the next few months.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:00 AM on July 20, 2012


I would be willing to bet cash money that in the coming weeks we see more hand-wringing over the violence of movies or comicbooks than the availability of firearms or body armor.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:01 AM on July 20, 2012 [62 favorites]


Cherry-picking a handful of edge cases and treating them as if they're representative of the whole market is hyperbole and counterproductive to a serious policy discussion.

What if the edge cases are mass killings? Should we factor that into the debate, or should we continue to buy the line that there is nothing to see here and we should just move on. The notion, for instance, that a "gun control" debate is only applicable depending how he acquired the guns is mind-blowing. Surely when guns are everywhere that affects their overall availability. Whether he got them legally or illegally hardly matters.
posted by OmieWise at 5:02 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


How many more? How many more before we give up our love affair with guns?
posted by tommasz at 5:02 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Pete Williams on NBC just identified the suspect as James Holmes, age 24.
posted by BobbyVan at 5:03 AM on July 20, 2012


First thoughts? That 6 year old who was shot may never again be able to walk into a darkened movie theater and sit down with his back to the door. I know in light of the fact that so many have lost their lives this is small beer, but for some reason it is all I can think of.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:06 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Pete Williams on NBC just identified the suspect as James Holmes, age 24.


Wait, they didn't call him James Middlename Holmes?
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:06 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


I have been thinking about it, because sensible gun control laws could have prevented this person from being able to murder 15 people and injure dozens more.

Yep, exactly how those drug laws made sure that nobody was able to light up a spliff before the show.
posted by Malor at 5:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


I would be willing to bet cash money that in the coming weeks we see more hand-wringing over the violence of movies or comicbooks than the availability of firearms or body armor.

I was also thinking that Warner Bros will need to take another look at its upcoming film "Gangster Squad". Two minutes into the trailer is a scene that will shock many in the aftermath of the Aurora killings.
posted by BobbyVan at 5:08 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Sorry, but why do we need a MetaTalk thread? Is this thread simply to drop dots and exclaim "wow that is super duper shitty." over and over again?
Totally agree!

It is very difficult to have a thoughtful, constructive policy debate in the same thread in which people are processing their immediate emotional responses to a shocking tragedy.


Seems to me the two can coexist. Those with a deep emotional response may either be further angered by the policy discussion or gladdened that some folks want to discuss solutions. We are all adults (presumably). It is not a bad thing that one will effect the other (that is, that policy won't necessarily be discussed in completely objective terms, detached from emotion). Thoughtful, constructive policy debates about such things as gun control should be informed by the knowledge and emotion that comes with seeing the consequences of guns in action.

My opinion here, but if more people in that theater were armed, more people would be dead. Confused, running around and towards the exits, a few citizens get into a gunfight with someone motivated to kill as many as possible, mentally ill, or whatever... that's a recipe for safety and sane gun policy?
posted by IndpMed at 5:08 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Seriously, we know basically nothing right now; baseless speculation accomplishes nothing. Let's not derail the thread with fights and controversy.

Cherry-picking a handful of edge cases and treating them as if they're representative of the whole market is hyperbole and counterproductive to a serious policy discussion.

Mortality statistic by country for rifle, shotgun, and larger firearm discharges:

694 United States
392 Columbia
278 Venezuela
238 Brazil
056 Ecuador
...
015 Canada
...
007 Denmark
...
005 Japan

posted by deanklear at 5:09 AM on July 20, 2012 [66 favorites]


The availability of military-grade weapons - semi-automatic fire arms with high capacity magazines - is definitely directly responsible for the body count. If he was restricted to hunting and home defense weapons - pump-action shotgun or bolt-action rifle, limited to 4 rounds - there would be some people hurt and killed, but not dozens.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:11 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


So the tear gas thing is a new twist, no? He wanted his victims running for the door so he could pick them off easier?

And what a fucking coward. To gun down completely innocent strangers but make no effort to resist armed police. What a slimy piece of shit; he only wants to play if he has all the firepower.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:11 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


.
posted by lizbunny at 5:12 AM on July 20, 2012


deanklear, that's basically a list of 'where the drug war is being fought'.
posted by Malor at 5:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


The shooter is my age; when we were 11, Columbine. When we were 13, September 11. When we were 15, war in Afghanistan. When we were 18, Virginia Tech.
posted by ChuraChura at 5:13 AM on July 20, 2012 [83 favorites]


.
posted by haplesschild at 5:13 AM on July 20, 2012


CNN is reporting that the 3 month old baby involved in all of this "is doing fine" after having been checked by medical staff.

Hopes and prayers for those victims not out of critical condition yet.
posted by ceribus peribus at 5:13 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


.
posted by lalochezia at 5:14 AM on July 20, 2012


I was also thinking that Warner Bros will need to take another look at its upcoming film "Gangster Squad" yt . Two minutes into the trailer is a scene that will shock many in the aftermath of the Aurora killings.

Wow, no kidding.

RIP for the victims, very sad. Is Aurora a suburb of Denver?
posted by jamesonandwater at 5:14 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I don't think it's quite correct to compare illegal drug use/trafficking with illegal firearms use/trafficking.

...also, taking "gun control" to mean "no guns anywhere ever" is willfully reinterpreting the argument to ridiculous extremes...not many people are arguing that America should have NO guns.




(although, living in a country where guns aren't allowed, I feel immeasurably safer than when I was in the U.S.)
posted by nile_red at 5:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


The shooting into a crowd of complete strangers is pretty rare isn't it? Don't mass shooting usually take place in schools or work environments? The only one I can recall at the moment is the shooting at MacDonalds.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:15 AM on July 20, 2012


Yeah, Aurora is actually HUGE, it's directly south of Denver.

I moved a year ago, but this is completely freaking me out. My friends aren't awake yet or doing other things, I want to know if they're ok.
posted by Kimberly at 5:16 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


The shooter is my age; when we were 11, Columbine. When we were 13, September 11.

Columbine occurred in 1999, over a decade before 9/11.

I went to a midnight showing of TDKR (in Georgia) and the theatre was more packed than I've ever seen it. Terrifying to think what a madman or terrorist could do in an unguarded facility where a huge crowd is guaranteed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:17 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


"I was also thinking that Warner Bros will need to take another look at its upcoming film "Gangster Squad" . Two minutes into the trailer is a scene that will shock many in the aftermath of the Aurora killings."

That trailer is playing before The Dark Knight Rises (or it was in my local theater, at least).
posted by Jacqueline at 5:18 AM on July 20, 2012


"Columbine occurred in 1999, over a decade before 9/11"

Er...
posted by cromagnon at 5:19 AM on July 20, 2012 [25 favorites]


Columbine occurred in 1999, over a decade before 9/11.

Math fail.
posted by valkyryn at 5:19 AM on July 20, 2012 [39 favorites]


I wonder if this will have any impact on the level of security in places like movie theatres. Columbine saw an uptick in weapon detection systems in schools -- will we start seeing stuff like that in more public facilities?
posted by fight or flight at 5:20 AM on July 20, 2012


Columbine occurred in 1999, over a decade before 9/11.

No.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:20 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


............
posted by cashman at 5:20 AM on July 20, 2012


I feel bad for anyone named James Holmes right now with all the Google searching of the name that's going on. (Though I have to admit I've been doing that, too...)
posted by MegoSteve at 5:20 AM on July 20, 2012


Math fail.

Yep, that was pretty silly. More coffee please!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:21 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


So at a minimum he fired 34 shots. Almost certainly more. Many more.

This situation is tragic, but bear in mind this was a pretty crowded room. There was a shooting at a parade in Toronto a few years ago and because of the packed conditions, one bullet wounded three people.

You know, the odd thing is that because gun violence is heavily in the news here (the traditionally safe Toronto has seen four people killed in three separate shootings this week), I thought just yesterday that sooner or later someone was going to open fire in a crowded movie theatre... like the midnight showings of the Batman flick.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Where is that video where an expert says the best way to prevent shootings like this is not to glorify the perpetrator by having massive amounts of coverage and focus?
posted by cashman at 5:26 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


I wonder if this will have any impact on the level of security in places like movie theatres. Columbine saw an uptick in weapon detection systems in schools -- will we start seeing stuff like that in more public facilities?

Potentially, but I kind of doubt it. Two reasons.

First, there are certain businesses, like clubs and bars, that already routinely pat down guests. Bars are a pretty bad risk for this sort of thing, and they're already taking measures to that end. Movie theaters, not so much, and the inconvenience and cost of installing the equipment doesn't seem to be worth the potential benefit. I mean, this has happened, what, once? It's a terrifying thing, but it just doesn't seem to happen that often.

This seems to be the sort of high-severity, low-frequency loss that you just hope doesn't happen, because even though the cost of any single loss is quite high, the cost of taking measures which might meaningfully reduce the frequency is so overwhelming that it's just not worth it. This is the same analysis that leads to people living in hurricane-prone states. Yeah, you might get hit now and then, but the only real way of preventing that is not living there at all. Benefit isn't worth the cost.

Second, according to reports, the guy broke through an emergency exit door. He didn't just waltz in through the lobby. Screening the customers wouldn't have made a difference. This also feeds in to the above point: it's just not the sort of thing you can prevent all that well, at least not while preserving some semblance of not living in a police state.
posted by valkyryn at 5:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


In thinking back, though, 1999 (and Columbine) does feel like a decade before 9/11.
posted by pjenks at 5:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [21 favorites]


Or rather, the best way to respond to these events.
posted by cashman at 5:28 AM on July 20, 2012


The Norway shooting was not directed at random strangers. It was a very intentional political attack.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:28 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


I was at a showing of some dumb movie when the fire alarms went off. They went off for a long time before anyone got up and started walking out (even I, usually the first out the door, only really got moving when other folks did). Switching from spectator/entertained mode to action/this is real mode is surprisingly difficult to do on a dime; I can absolutely believe that the other theater or people in the theater seeing the smoke assumed that it was somehow part of the show. It doesn't make sense (I think we assumed for a minute that our fire alarm was part of the experience for the Simpsons movie, which is incongruous) but something in our brains seems to be wired that way.

.
posted by c'mon sea legs at 5:29 AM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


This seems to be the sort of high-severity, low-frequency loss that you just hope doesn't happen, because even though the cost of any single loss is quite high, the cost of taking measures which might meaningfully reduce the frequency is so overwhelming that it's just not worth it.

Until lawsuits kick in. Then adding a security system and guards could be added to deflect lawsuits and justify higher ticket or snack prices.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Matt Lauer just asked someone who survived the shooting if the shooter was wearing a Bane mask. A dozen people are DEAD and NBC wants a fucking Batman tie-in. I have no words. Media is just broken. The discussion here on Mefi, even when it goes off the rails, is still more nuanced and intelligent than TV. Ugh.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [33 favorites]


This might be a political attack as well. The fact he surrendered rather than suicided points in the direction of a specific statement he wants heard and understood. We'll need to hear more from the police.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:31 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Where is that video where an expert says the best way to prevent shootings like this is not to glorify the perpetrator by having massive amounts of coverage and focus?

This, from Charlie Brooker's Newswipe?
posted by Catseye at 5:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


Where is that video where an expert says the best way to prevent shootings like this is not to glorify the perpetrator by having massive amounts of coverage and focus?

Charlie Brooker has a good video on this topic.
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


This , from Charlie Brooker's Newswipe?

DAMN AND BLAST
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:33 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


What's the best way for us to help (at least financially, since I'm not sure how else) from far away? Red Cross, or wait for memorial funds to go to the victims' families, or..?
posted by c'mon sea legs at 5:33 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Second, according to reports, the guy broke through an emergency exit door. He didn't just waltz in through the lobby. Screening the customers wouldn't have made a difference. This also feeds in to the above point: it's just not the sort of thing you can prevent all that well, at least not while preserving some semblance of not living in a police state.

Sensibility of security measures and maintaining the impression that we are not living in a police state has not really affected the current situation.
posted by jonbro at 5:33 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


In journalism school, our professors taught us the old adage "if it bleeds, it leads" with only a hint of self awareness. Without a massive cultural shift (not just in journalism but in the tastes of consumers and the current for-profit news business models), simply not covering a shooting like this is a non-starter.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 5:35 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Matt Lauer just asked someone who survived the shooting if the shooter was wearing a Bane mask. A dozen people are DEAD and NBC wants a fucking Batman tie-in. I have no words. Media is just broken.

Seems 100% reasonable to wonder if the guy wearing a gas mask shooting at people at a Batman movie was dressed like the guy in the Batman movie who wears a mask that looks like a gas mask.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:35 AM on July 20, 2012 [23 favorites]


Matt Lauer just asked someone who survived the shooting if the shooter was wearing a Bane mask. A dozen people are DEAD and NBC wants a fucking Batman tie-in. I have no words. Media is just broken. The discussion here on Mefi, even when it goes off the rails, is still more nuanced and intelligent than TV. Ugh.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me. He had been reported as wearing a gas mask; it's far from unreasonable to wonder if he had made a conscious effort to dress like one of the main characters, who wears a distinctive mask.

If he had been wearing a Bane-like mask, that also would have let him evade detection. Of course people would have just thought he was dressing like the villain for the midnight screening. No one would give a second thought to bulky clanging or whatnot.
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:35 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Hat tip to the NRA.
posted by norabarnacl3 at 5:37 AM on July 20, 2012


Until lawsuits kick in. Then adding a security system and guards could be added to deflect lawsuits and justify higher ticket or snack prices.

Oh, they'll kick in all right. I do insurance defense work, so my second though--after "Man, that sucks."--was "Boy, that theater's insurance carrier is going to have a lousy quarter."

But I still don't think that it will happen. There's all kinds of security measures that businesses can do that they routinely don't do, and insurance companies don't penalize them for it most of the time. Why? Because, again, the cost of just eating a loss now and then is less than hiring security guards and installing screening equipment.

More generally speaking, landowners owe a high duty to invitees, but that duty is still limited to one of reasonable care. The duty is not to take every possible measure to protect guests' safety, but to take all reasonable measures. Cost is a factor in that analysis, and juries know it. The fact that plaintiff's counsel can point out security measures that might have been taken isn't enough. They need to convince the jury that those measures should have been taken, and that they stood a substantial likelihood of preventing the attack.

You know what's likely to bite them in the ass? Not the lack of security guards. Not the lack of screening equipment. But the failure to properly secure the damn emergency exit door. Ridiculously simple fix, costs about nothing, should probably have been done anyway--the theater doesn't want people sneaking in the back for any reason--and would likely have prevented the attack, or at least made it significantly harder to pull off.

That's speculation on my part, as I don't actually know what happened, but the reports suggest that he got in through an emergency exit door, and that's what my premises liability instincts tell me.
posted by valkyryn at 5:39 AM on July 20, 2012 [17 favorites]


The fact he surrendered rather than suicided points in the direction of a specific statement he wants heard and understood.

Well, maybe, but certainly not necessarily. You seem to be banking on the idea that someone who would do something like this is a rational actor, making rational choices about when to give up and why. I'm not sure that's a good assumption.
posted by OmieWise at 5:40 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


deanklear: but Canada's firearm-per-capita rate seems to be about a third of that in the US, not one forty-third of it, and 90's data on households with firearms put Canada even closer to the US. I'd like more gun control in the US too, especially of pistols, but there is something else that has gone terribly wrong with American society or just with Americans that causes more of these tragedies than you could reasonably expect from just having lots of firearms.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:40 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Damn. I am going to assume from the lack of calls that my relatives who live in Aurora didn't go see Batman last night, at least.
posted by rewil at 5:41 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


But the failure to properly secure the damn emergency exit door. Ridiculously simple fix, costs about nothing, should probably have been done anyway--the theater doesn't want people sneaking in the back for any reason--and would likely have prevented the attack, or at least made it significantly harder to pull off.

For what it's worth, I saw on reddit that a moviegoer had left the cinema by the exit door to take a phone call and left it open. Unconfirmed though, of course, so grain of salt etc.
posted by fight or flight at 5:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]




Sensibility of security measures and maintaining the impression that we are not living in a police state has not really affected the current situation.

Oh, but it has. TSA security theater is driven by and paid for by the government. Congress seems to be the only group of people that thinks it's a remotely good idea. It's unpopular and expensive, but hey, can't let the voters think we don't care about security!

But you don't see that sort of thing going on in businesses anywhere in the country. Unless the government is willing to pay for it--and just covering airports cost $8.1 billion this year--I don't see it as particularly likely. Businesses aren't really subject to voter preferences, nor can they afford waste money on meaningless gestures. Not that the government can either, but $8.1 billion is peanuts compared to the other money the feds arguably waste on stupid projects.
posted by valkyryn at 5:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Wikipedia page. Not much there yet, but probably worth checking later.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


A weird but awful thought: for the survivors of this tragedy, the ubiquitous cultural symbol of Batman will forever remind them of mass murder. All of these people will continue to pass by countless Batman posters, billboards, shirts, etc.

Ugh. Awful. I know that other survivors of other tragedies have to cope with similarly ubiquitous triggers, but still. Batman is supposed to be harmless entertainment that makes people happy.
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


For what it's worth, I saw on reddit that a moviegoer had left the cinema by the exit door to take a phone call and left it open. Unconfirmed though, of course, so grain of salt etc.

That's going to make the plaintiffs' case a lot harder then. The theater can't make it so that the door doesn't open, nor is it necessarily a good idea to make all the alarms go off every time you open the door. And even if they had made it so that the doors automatically close--one of those pneumatic arms, I'd imagine--if the guest is standing there keeping it open, it's arguably his fault, not the theater's.

Again, just working through the hypotheticals. I have no substantive information.
posted by valkyryn at 5:45 AM on July 20, 2012


Slap*Happy: We've had one of those in recent years as well. The only difference is that he's being tried as a terrorist, because he expressed a political motivation. There has been no pogrom of middle-eastern folks.

There was a lot of fear and racism right after the Fort Hood massacre. Fear and racism that white Christians in the United States wouldn't be subjected to if all other circumstances were the same.
posted by gman at 5:46 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


I'd like more gun control in the US too, especially of pistols,

At this point I don't even care about pistols, I just want all automatic (and semi-automatic) rifles banned. I know the problem is that small changes to the weaponry means congress has to pass new laws to cover new weaponry-- but wouldn't a blanket ban work? Why does the NRA insist that hunters and sportsmen need automatic rifles?

I admit to total gun ignorance-- how many rounds can a pistol fire before needing to be reloaded?

Arrrgh. I really need to go, but I'll be checking back on this post frequently.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:46 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


A few weeks ago, a man by the username of 'JamesHolmes154' posted a thread on 9gag saying he was going to 'shoot up' a theater. He was clearly distressed and admitted he was suffering from PTSD.

I'm going to come out and ask it: is he a Vet of Afghan/Iraq?
Because I have been wondering why we haven't seen more of this sort of thing for a while now.
posted by Mezentian at 5:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


ABC in Los Angeles just said that they had interviewed his mother in San Diego and that she hadn't been contacted by police yet, but she spoke to the effect of "you've got the right guy".
posted by zengargoyle at 5:48 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


A few weeks ago, a man by the username of 'JamesHolmes154' posted a thread on 9gag saying he was going to 'shoot up' a theater. He was clearly distressed and admitted he was suffering from PTSD.

I'm not saying this absolutely isn't true, but there has been a lot of this stuff flying around in the last few hours. There was a 4chan thread where someone claimed to be the "second gunman" and people claiming to be the shooter all over the place.

It's not worth speculating on any of this until we have confirmed identity and a statement from the police.
posted by fight or flight at 5:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]




Second, according to reports, the guy broke through an emergency exit door.

When I was a kid, we would always use the emergency exit to get in to the theater -- one person would buy a ticket and let a huge group of people in. Why on earth haven't theaters put alarms on those doors, simply as revenue-control devices?
posted by Forktine at 5:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Not gonna happen. That issue is so baked into American culture that it's never going to change.

Well there is also that issue of the 2nd Amendment.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 5:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


A few weeks ago, a man by the username of 'JamesHolmes154' posted a thread on 9gag saying he was going to 'shoot up' a theater. He was clearly distressed and admitted he was suffering from PTSD.

If this is true, Google doesn't know about it.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 5:50 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


I admit to total gun ignorance-- how many rounds can a pistol fire before needing to be reloaded?

Well that's the thing, pistols can hold just as many rounds as an assault rifle with the right type of magazine. The perpetrator of the Gabrielle Giffords shooting used a semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.
posted by arcolz at 5:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I would be willing to bet cash money that in the coming weeks we see more hand-wringing over the violence of movies or comicbooks than the availability of firearms or body armor.

Have you read through this thread?
posted by John Cohen at 5:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


how many rounds can a pistol fire before needing to be reloaded?

A revolver? Six, typically. A semi-auto? Nine? Twelve? Thirty, if you've got an extended magazine? But definitely nine to twelve. And reloading takes seconds, if you've got the extra clips.
posted by valkyryn at 5:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


A few weeks ago, a man by the username of 'JamesHolmes154' posted a thread on 9gag saying he was going to 'shoot up' a theater. He was clearly distressed and admitted he was suffering from PTSD.

I'm not saying this absolutely isn't true, but there has been a lot of this stuff flying around in the last few hours.


Yeah. Using Google to search 9gag doesn't return any results for that user name. I could be doing it wrong.
posted by OmieWise at 5:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


HuffPost is reporting that the Paris premiere of TDKR has been cancelled.
posted by fight or flight at 5:53 AM on July 20, 2012


run"monty: I put all my internet sleuthing skills to work and can't find a scrap of evidence that such a thread or user ever existed on 9gag, so it's probably just someone trolling.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well there is also that issue of the 2nd Amendment.

Interpretation of the 2nd Amendment has changed dramatically over the past 30-40 years, largely thanks to herculean efforts by the NRA.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 5:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [16 favorites]


The theater can't make it so that the door doesn't open, nor is it necessarily a good idea to make all the alarms go off every time you open the door.
Why not? Until reading the comment you responded to, I was always under the impression that alarms would go off if you open an emergency door. People should be using emergency doors in emergencies, and if an emergency is occurring, it makes sense to alarm people to it.

If the argument against is merely "well it would be annoying when people who didn't know about the alarm opened the door", I think that people would figure out that opening the door triggers the alarm pretty quickly.
posted by Flunkie at 5:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]



I'm going to come out and ask it: is he a Vet of Afghan/Iraq?
Because I have been wondering why we haven't seen more of this sort of thing for a while now.



There have been several cases here of vets holed up in apartments or pacing in front of their homes shooting -sometimes at cops. That's just in the past year. I'm starting to feel like I live on a powder keg. Having said that, there is a difference between that and loading up and going into a crowded theater. That is several million degrees of evil/madness above and beyond. I hope this doesn't turn out to be a vet.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Not gonna happen. That issue is so baked into American culture that it's never going to change.
Well there is also that issue of the 2nd Amendment.
Yeah, we don't know much about the guy, but one thing is certainly clear: He was obviously part of a well-regulated militia.
posted by Flunkie at 5:55 AM on July 20, 2012 [40 favorites]


A few weeks ago, a man by the username of 'JamesHolmes154' posted a thread on 9gag saying he was going to 'shoot up' a theater. He was clearly distressed and admitted he was suffering from PTSD. He said he was going to walk in and try to take as much lifes as possible. The whole 9gag community egged him on and give him tips on what to wear, etc. They give him tips on sharp-shooting and sent him messages on how to take as much lifes as possible. 9gag is a sick site and needs to be destroyed.

Reddit has an "internet rivalry" with 9gag, I'm 100% positive this is a bad troll
posted by theodolite at 5:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


.
posted by Stynxno at 5:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


The "he was a 9gag user" thing is almost certainly some kind of disgusting 4chan joke. We shouldn't speculate on any of that until there's actual evidence.
posted by graphnerd at 5:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


One 9gag comment says it is on 9gag's Facebook page - not the main site. I still couldn't find it but searching in Facebook is difficult.
posted by Brodiggitty at 5:57 AM on July 20, 2012


I was flying from Taiwan to Seattle when the Norway massacre happened last summer. It started when I was in the air, and by the time I landed the story was much less hazy than it had been at the outset. When I read the stories, I was grateful to have missed the speculation while I'd been without internet access.

I think I am going to step away from this thread and come back later.
posted by compartment at 5:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I feel just absolutely sick about this. Even before hearing that there were children involved, something in me has changed since becoming a mother and it's so hard to maintain any kind of distance from tragedy like this. My heart just feels heavy in my chest and I don't know how to express that kind of grief.

And then hearing that a 3mo old baby was among the wounded.... it's just too much.

I'm not focusing on who did this or why - I'm trying to focus on what I can do as a parent to make this world better for my own son that he doesn't have to grow up in a reality where going to a movie makes you a target for a shooting spree. I'm grateful that he's only a toddler and can't really talk about this - but some day he'll be old enough to understand and I'll have to explain to him that he lives in a world where people who are hurting hurt other people and the reality of it is just... terrifying.

I'm rambling and my thoughts are incoherent, so I'll just close up by saying that my heart goes out to the victims and their families. I can't even imagine what they're going through today and I so very much hope that they find love and support through this horrible tragedy.
posted by sonika at 5:58 AM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


Well there is also that issue of the 2nd Amendment.

The odd massacre is just the price you have to pay to ensure that the civilian populace has the power to take down the government in the event of incipient tyranny.
posted by pompomtom at 6:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [16 favorites]


The 18yo daughter of a friend was in the theater. She was shot in the knee. She's in surgery now at a "university hospital." Not sure which one.

I am absolutely floored by this.
posted by ColdChef at 6:10 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Mod note: Some comments deleted. Can we please not use this thread as an excuse for a free-for-all? Stop attacking each other, don't make things personal, try to keep heads attached to shoulders. Be decent. Please.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:11 AM on July 20, 2012 [20 favorites]


Also, when was the last time you went gun shopping? It's actually a lot more difficult to buy a firearm than you seem to perceive it to be.

I think it depends what state you're in and where you're buying. Friends and relatives who go to gun shows in western states have told me anyone can buy a gun and ammo on the spot with no background check (they have no problem with this and roll their eyes at my horror).
posted by aught at 6:11 AM on July 20, 2012


Oh jeez, ColdChef, I hope she's okay.
posted by fight or flight at 6:12 AM on July 20, 2012


For what it's worth, I saw on reddit that a moviegoer had left the cinema by the exit door to take a phone call and left it open. Unconfirmed though, of course, so grain of salt etc.

IF this is the case, then he was a conspirator--nobody goes to the trouble of donning a gas mask, loading up with firearms, with the plan to shoot up a full movie theater in the hopes that "hey, maybe someone will leave the emergency exit door open." If that's truly how he gained entrance ("someone" left the door open) then that someone was in on it.

My gut says the guy broke in through an emergency exit, not walked in when someone happened to go outside when their phone rang. But then, I'm trying to make sense of something senseless, so there's that.
posted by tzikeh at 6:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:13 AM on July 20, 2012


Denver media has reported that the 3-month old has been released from University Hospital.
posted by majikwah at 6:13 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


.
posted by But tomorrow is another day... at 6:13 AM on July 20, 2012


Aspiring Sportscaster Among The 12 Killed In Shooting At Colorado Movie Theater
Her last blog entry was an account of the Eaton Centre shooting last month in Toronto.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:14 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Fuck, ColdChef. Keep us updated?
posted by tzikeh at 6:14 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


IF this is the case, then he was a conspirator--nobody goes to the trouble of donning a gas mask, loading up with firearms, with the plan to shoot up a full movie theater in the hopes that "hey, maybe someone will leave the emergency exit door open."

I think it's a bit premature to conclude that. People are so umbilically attached to their cell phones these days that it's reasonable to assume that one polite person out of 100 or more might leave the theater to take a call.

That said, I think the "chance open exit" explanation is wrong. I would bet that the gunman either knew of a non-locking exit door in advance or was in the theater earlier and did something like putting a piece of cardboard in the latch to keep the bolt from clicking into place.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


omg, ColdChef - so so sorry.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:16 AM on July 20, 2012


Don't you see, it was the guy with the phone call. He stashed his getup outside the door, went to the movie and went out the door, donned his getup and made his re-entry.
posted by zengargoyle at 6:16 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


I'm trying to figure out how someone "broke into" an emergency exit in a theater. The door frame on an emergency exit in a theater HAS to be designed for the door to open outward. and you know that this is a steel frame, not wood. A single individual is not going to break that door open. And there don't seem to be any reports of gunshots to destroy the lock on the door.

Lots we don't know about this yet.

I know Dan Oates, the Chief of Police, he used to be Chief here in Ann Arbor and sat on my Board of Directors. He's a pretty good guy.
posted by HuronBob at 6:17 AM on July 20, 2012


Regarding the exit door theory, my source was @GrrlScientist, a writer for the Guardian who was tweeting the CBS livestream.

Apparently there were reports that someone left on a phone call, which was then revised to the shooter knocking and someone opening the door. Either way, somehow he got in through a door that was supposed to be closed.
posted by fight or flight at 6:18 AM on July 20, 2012


Not to excuse capping strangers, but who the hell brings a baby to a midnight movie?
posted by dr_dank at 6:20 AM on July 20, 2012 [39 favorites]


which was then revised to the shooter knocking and someone opening the door

Not sure why, but this scenario would add a significant extra layer of quiet horror.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:20 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


I don't think it's quite correct to compare illegal drug use/trafficking with illegal firearms use/trafficking.

Absolutely it is. Thinking that gun control will keep guns out of the hands of criminals is very similar to thinking that drug control means they'll never be able to get high.

We're already at war with ourselves about drugs, which is a VERY great deal of why America is such a dangerous place. Do you really want to increase the tension, instead of decreasing it? People having guns is not a problem. It's only using them that's a problem.

That may sound like an artificial differentiator, but it absolutely is not -- people focus on the 'have' part of the equation, on the theory that it prevents use, but that's not the actual problem. In the drug war, the thinking is that "those losers can't get high if they can't get their fix", but they can always get their fix. And, in a country with hundreds of millions of guns, which will last for centuries with care, they will always be able to get weapons.

We need to solve the right problem. And the problem is the use of weapons to kill people. I would suggest that stopping the War on Drugs will do more to make this country safer than any other single action we could take, and would obviate the need for a War on Guns. Treatment is the answer for drug addiction, and stopping the War on Drugs is the answer for the violence problem.

Start a War on Guns, and you'll end up with more deaths, not fewer. They are just too necessary in the drug war, and the drug war is unbelievably profitable.
posted by Malor at 6:21 AM on July 20, 2012 [23 favorites]


So why not talk about things that would actually make a difference, like a ban on assault weapons and more stringent gun control laws?

Don't really think this is the time or place for talking about gun control laws is why, but I'll note that your basic assertion that it would make a difference is one most people on the other side of the debate will not automatically accept.

The 18yo daughter of a friend was in the theater. She was shot in the knee. She's in surgery now at a "university hospital." Not sure which one.

ColdChef I am really sorry to hear this. Hope she's okay. I can only imagine what her parents must be going through, for that matter.
posted by Ryvar at 6:21 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I think it's a bit premature to conclude that.

That's why I started the sentence with "IF."

People are so umbilically attached to their cell phones these days that it's reasonable to assume that one polite person out of 100 or more might leave the theater to take a call.

I... have never seen anyone leave a movie theater to take a phone call. Either they hurriedly shut the phone off (~95% of the time) or take the fucking call right there in the theater (~5% of the time).

Aside from that, I don't think someone who is planning a massacre leaves part of their plan up to "Surely some polite person will receive a phone call, and leave the theater to answer it, leaving the door open, and that's when I'll do it!"
posted by tzikeh at 6:21 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


So sorry to hear, ColdChef.
posted by idest at 6:21 AM on July 20, 2012


She's in surgery now at a "university hospital." Not sure which one.

That's most likely the University of Colorado Hospital, which was reported as treating several shooting injuries. There are also reports of victims being treated at Denver Health Center, Swedish Health Center, Parker Adventist Hospital, and Children's Hospital Colorado.
posted by ceribus peribus at 6:22 AM on July 20, 2012


Not to excuse capping strangers, but who the hell brings a baby to a midnight movie?

People who can't afford a babysitter? To be honest, I don't think these are the questions we should be asking here.
posted by fight or flight at 6:22 AM on July 20, 2012 [24 favorites]


> Not to excuse capping strangers, but who the hell brings a baby to a midnight movie?

People who can't afford a babysitter?


Or someone whose sitter cancelled, or....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:23 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Also, when was the last time you went gun shopping? It's actually a lot more difficult to buy a firearm than you seem to perceive it to be.

I'm super pro-gun rights, but I'd definitely disagree that guns are hard to buy. As mentioned above, buying from a private party means no paperwork, no oversight, no nothing. Buying a gun at a store means very minimal paperwork and oversight. Unless something has changed in the last year (it's been at least that long since I last bought a new gun), it's as simple as filling out the AFT form and twiddling your thumbs for a few minutes while they phone it in. As long as you can manage to look fairly normal, can tick off the right boxes on the form, and don't show up in the database as a convicted felon or the like, you are good to go, no matter how crazy you might happen to be.

Everywhere I've lived has had waiting periods for handguns, but you can usually bypass that by having a concealed carry permit, which is not exactly hard to get, nor (in my experience) takes any more background scrutiny than buying a gun legally. If you have a reasonably clean background this stuff just isn't a big deal.
posted by Forktine at 6:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


ATF, not AFT, duh.
posted by Forktine at 6:26 AM on July 20, 2012


"Babies in movie theaters" (especially evening/midnight movies) is a super-grar-charged topic with a chasm of a split between sides, and maybe we should leave it out of this thread.
posted by tzikeh at 6:26 AM on July 20, 2012 [17 favorites]


Some idiot is on CNN claiming that this is about "teenage psychopaths inspired by playing video games" already. Moral panic ahoy!
posted by zombieflanders at 6:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Generally, University Hospital refers to the Anschutz Medical campus of CU, which is literally a few blocks away from the suspect's home and about 15 or so blocks from the shooting.
posted by majikwah at 6:27 AM on July 20, 2012


.

Here's a slim hope that whatever bullshit manifesto the asshole has laid out for people to find just gets burned unread.
posted by Artw at 6:28 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


From a different angle: focusing on bizarre one-off incidents like this, committed by the mentally ill, is the wrong approach. From a perspective of broad society, the total cost for this kind of event is very low. Most of the systemic solutions to try to stop these extremely rare occurrences will cause far more pain and death than they could ever solve. The answer to a problem needs to reduce its magnitude, but the magnitude of this type of problem is so low that essentially any systemic response will increase your personal danger, not decrease it.

It's yet another example of how humans are really, really bad with understanding and mitigating risk. We react emotionally, and we do stupid shit, when we're presented with abstract but seemingly extreme threats that will never, ever, ever happen to us. They seem immediately adjacent because of television and the Internet, and they seem pressing because the magnitude of the event is so high.

It feels like this happened right next door, like it's a pressing threat that oh my god we need to solve right now. But the sky overhead is far more dangerous to you than random shooters in movie theaters or on college campuses. You're not quaking in fear of lightning, but you should be, compared to the chance of being shot by a lunatic like this. And your car should scare you so bad that you won't get within fifty feet of it.
posted by Malor at 6:29 AM on July 20, 2012 [70 favorites]


Christ almighty.

I know there's no why that would make sense, I know there's not, I know, but I want to know WHY?
posted by likeso at 6:29 AM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by toerinishuman at 6:29 AM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by Strass at 6:30 AM on July 20, 2012


WHY?

Mentally ill person + guns + cultural cues this is a good idea + finally someone pays attention to their bullshit manifesto
posted by Artw at 6:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


"You're not quaking in fear of lightning, but you should be, compared to the chance of being shot by a lunatic like this. And your car should scare you so bad that you won't get within fifty feet of it."

Yup, definitely never leaving the house ever again. :(
posted by Jacqueline at 6:34 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Did I miss part of the news--there are several comments indicating that the shooter has a mental illness, but I have not seen that reported.

Or are we simply proceeding from the assumption that anyone who would shoot into a crowded movie theater has a mental illness? Because I'm not certain that that's true.
posted by tzikeh at 6:36 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Artw: "WHY?

Mentally ill person + guns + cultural cues this is a good idea + finally someone pays attention to their bullshit manifesto
"

Most mentally ill people aren't violent.
posted by ShawnStruck at 6:36 AM on July 20, 2012 [25 favorites]


According to Pete Williams NBC: Federal authorities say Colorado shooting suspect James Holmes had no military history
posted by madamjujujive at 6:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Folks with mental illness are more likely to be victims of violent crime than perpetrators.
posted by edgeways at 6:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [26 favorites]


At this point I don't even care about pistols, I just want all automatic (and semi-automatic) rifles banned.

Automatic weapons are already more or less banned -- the only ones a civilian can legally own are legacy/grandfathered weapons and legal automatics aren't associated with many crimes at all (most things say one or two murders since 1934, one of which was by a cop).

wouldn't a blanket ban work?

I think American society is too broken for that to be really effective. Not that I've ever tried or ever would, but AFAIK it's possible to build usable guns, including automatic weapons, in a well-equipped basement machine shop.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:39 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


tzikeh:
"Or are we simply proceeding from the assumption that anyone who would shoot into a crowded movie theater has a mental illness? Because I'm not certain that that's true."
I think everyone is making that assumption because the target (a Batman movie screening) requires a major stretch of logic to have any sort of political/religious/social connection.
posted by charred husk at 6:40 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


wouldn't a blanket ban work?

I think you'll find that The Prohibition Era is an object lesson in why the answer to this question is no.
posted by tzikeh at 6:41 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


From the Guardian:
Eyewitnesses say bullets from the shooting in theatre nine passed through the theatre walls into adjacent screens, injuring people there also. Injured people are being treated in six hospitals around Denver.
Is there a real reason one needs to be able to wander into Walmart or the local gun store and buy such bullets? Or am I woefully misunderstanding some property of movie theatre walls and/or bullets?
posted by hoyland at 6:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I think everyone is making that assumption because the target (a Batman movie screening) requires a major stretch of logic to have any sort of political/religious/social connection.

No stretch whatsoever. It's a gather of a lot of people in a relatively small space. Furthermore, those people are not going to be particularly alert. If one wants to shoot a load of people or blow them up, it's a pretty obvious choice, I would think.
posted by hoyland at 6:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Anthony Lane, movie critic for The New Yorker:

"The film, which the killer most certainly will not have seen beforehand, presented him with an opportunity; it did not urge him on, or trigger him into homicide, but it was, nonetheless, the occasion that he sought. He would have known that people had been talking of “The Dark Knight Rises” for months; that the excitement was mounting; that they would flock, in a good communal mood, to the first available showing. They wanted to be among the first to give their verdicts, before breakfast, and to talk about their triumph at work today. That is one of the social thrills that cinema, unlike TV, can still deliver, and long may it endure. It is the most hideous of ironies that an unstable individual saw that coming-together as his chance. His actions needed no model in a fictional monster, just a profound hostility to regular folk who had gathered, en masse, with their friends and their sodas, to have fun. The screen gave him a stage."
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [33 favorites]


Yes, we need to talk about gun control now. RIGHT now.

The real dog-and-pony show is to attack anyone who brings it up as being "political" and then running out the news cycle.

This was a fucking automatic weapon. I mean seriously, a fucking automatic weapon, and three other guns, on a 24 year old civilian who clearly would not have passed a psych evaluation with flying colors.

Our obscene gun policy leads to violent death. Stopping this is what government is supposed to fucking do.

So talk about it. It is the RIGHT time.
posted by moammargaret at 6:45 AM on July 20, 2012 [45 favorites]


This story was the first thing I hear on NPR on the way to work. I'm shocked and saddened. What a senseless tragedy.
posted by Gelatin at 6:45 AM on July 20, 2012


I think Anthony Lane needs to watch thatNewswipe clip and reconsider his piece.
posted by fight or flight at 6:45 AM on July 20, 2012


Malor, you make great points. But your assessment of the # of 'victims' is too modest.

When violence like this happens, entire communities are devastated. How many degrees of separation is the average person from gun violence? For most of my life, I've probably been 2 or 3 times removed. No big deal. Recently I became 1 degree away - someone I know had a good friends murdered by gun. At this point I can say I've been affected by gun violence. It's a lot less rare than a lightning strike.
posted by victory_laser at 6:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


I think everyone is making that assumption because the target (a Batman movie screening) requires a major stretch of logic to have any sort of political/religious/social connection.

I hate to do it, but as much as you'd think that, it's been in the political news for weeks now that Limbaugh's been on his show pushing the line that this Batman flick is liberal anti-Mitt Romney propaganda. I don't mean to bring politics into it, so please don't follow this line as a derail, but as illogical as it might seem to a sensible person, someone who thinks like Limbaugh evidently has no trouble making that connection.

So unfortunately, no, it's definitely possible even for nominally "sane people" to make that seemingly impossible stretch. Though I agree it seems insane to me, too.

God what an awful mess.

.
posted by saulgoodman at 6:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


I think our collective outrage would be better served discussing why we've massively defunded mental health care across the nation.
posted by Catblack at 6:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [45 favorites]


James Holmes from Littleton, CO, has a message for people trying to friend him on Facebook today.
posted by BobbyVan at 6:50 AM on July 20, 2012 [43 favorites]


Or are we simply proceeding from the assumption that anyone who would shoot into a crowded movie theater has a mental illness?

Pretty much, yes. They'll be a raging egomaniac, they'll have rage issues but in normal life be pretty powerless, they'll probably be paranoid about some group or other, they'll have a rambling manifesto about it, and most of all they'll have a disjoint from reality where they're the hero of their own little show and all of this makes sense.

Whenever that intersects with easy availability of firearms we get this.
posted by Artw at 6:50 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Or am I woefully misunderstanding some property of movie theatre walls and/or bullets?

Bullets are very dense and move very, very fast. Most interior walls are essentially hollow, Just thin membranes of wallboard and paint over structural framing. Maybe there's some insulation for sound in a theater. Nothing with any stopping power.

Check out the Mythbusters episode where they demonstrate how ineffective taking cover behind an automobile is. Bullets pass through most of a car as if it were paper.
posted by device55 at 6:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


BobbyVan, holy crap. People are ridiculous.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:52 AM on July 20, 2012


I wonder what Mark Ames will have to say about this.

My heart goes out to all the victims and their families. Coldchef, I hope your friend's daughter is all right.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 6:52 AM on July 20, 2012


This was a fucking automatic weapon. I mean seriously, a fucking automatic weapon, and three other guns, on a 24 year old civilian who clearly would not have passed a psych evaluation with flying colors.

Do you have a cite for that? All the article I read simply said the perp had a rifle and two handguns, nothing specific about them.
posted by arcolz at 6:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


I think our collective outrage would be better served discussing why we've massively defunded mental health care across the nation.

Absolutely.
posted by Artw at 6:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Yes, we need to talk about gun control now. RIGHT now.

Seriously? I think we need to talk about increasing low-cost and low-stigma mental health care.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 6:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [22 favorites]


This was a fucking automatic weapon. I mean seriously, a fucking automatic weapon, and three other guns, on a 24 year old civilian who clearly would not have passed a psych evaluation with flying colors.

This comment is precisely why now is not the time to have a conversation about gun control. You don't know what happened. You don't know how this guy got his guns, or what guns they were, or what his psych makeup was, or what his history has been. You don't know. Neither do I.

Taking hard positions on what policies we could enact to prevent this situation, while our understanding of the situation is still evolving, is highly unlikely to be productive. It is also, at least a little bit, in poor taste.
posted by gauche at 6:53 AM on July 20, 2012 [20 favorites]


Why can't we talk about gun control AND the appalling state of mental health care at the same time? Both are relevant.
posted by coppermoss at 6:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [25 favorites]


Both, I think.

Neither are likely to happen in America though.
posted by Artw at 6:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Why can't we talk about gun control AND the appalling state of mental health care at the same time? Both are relevant.

At this point, we have no idea what's relevant to this particular shooting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:55 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Just realized that I have re-posted this quote three times in the past five years. It is starting to get depressing:

"Amok is a Malay word for the homicidal sprees occasionally undertaken by lonely, Indochinese men who have suffered a loss of love, a loss of money, or a loss of face. The syndrome has been described in a culture even more remote from the West: the stone-age foragers of Papua New Guinea.

The amok man is patently out of his mind, an automaton oblivious to his surroundings and unreachable by appeals or threats. But his rampage is preceded by lengthy brooding over failure, and is carefully planned as a means of deliverance from an unbearable situation. The amok state is chillingly cognitive. It is triggered not by a stimulus, not by a tumor, not by a random spurt of brain chemicals, but by an idea. The idea is so standard that the following summary of the amok mind-set, composed in 1968 by a psychiatrist who had interviewed seven hospitalized amoks in Papua New Guinea, is an apt description of the the thoughts of mass murderers continents and decades away:
"I am not an important man... I possess only my personal sense of dignity. My life has been reduced to nothing by an intolerable insult. Therefore, I have nothing to lose except my life, which is nothing, so I trade my life for yours, as your life is favoured. The exchange is in my favour, so I shall not only kill you, but I shall kill many of you, and at the same time rehabilitate myself in the eyes of the group of which I am a member, even though I might be killed in the process."
The amok syndrome is an extreme instance of the puzzle of human emotions. Exotic at first glance, upon scrutiny they turn out to be universal; quintessentially irrational, they are tightly interwoven with abstract thought and have a cold logic of their own.

From How The Mind Works by Steven Pinker"
posted by AceRock at 6:55 AM on July 20, 2012 [176 favorites]


Not sure if anyone posted it, but the NY Times Lede has active coverage.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:55 AM on July 20, 2012




When we've been talking about race, shooters and violence, here's what I've been thinking:

1. That this is a horrific, tragic thing, first and foremost - and that whatever the survivors, their families and the families of the dead need should be forthcoming without grandstanding or judgement or immediate attempts to make political capital from it.

2. As I understand it, mass killings in the US are mostly committed by white men. The examples given upthread are known precisely because they are extremely atypical. It's easy to frame in a stupid way as "white men are pathological" or whatever - and thus, easy to dismiss this line of thought. But it's silly to say that mass killers are just regular people writ large - they're ill and damaged*. What is it about white supremacist capitalist patriarchy that makes mass killing a PTSD/suicide/despair strategy for white men but not generally for others? What does this say about the cultural narratives that contour people's experience of mental illness?

3. To my mind, the issue isn't so much "when people of color commit mass killings there is a pogrom whereas when white people commit mass killings people excuse it" - I'd argue that most people basically think that mass killings are the result of mental illness and that racialization of them is a fringe belief. When I've read stuff about racist narratives of violence, the angle I've seen is "there's a white/police/political narrative about how black boys and men are dangerous, always-already guilty even if they haven't done anything - while white boys/men who actually commit violence are often described as mentally ill or mistaken or traumatized". Also, police violence against men of color (and women of color) is legitimated, excused or forgotten - I saw some incredibly horrifying statistics recently (that I can't link from work as I found it on one of those tumblrs with an inappropriate name).

I get the sense from reading POC essays about violence that the race issue is that whether it's poor sick guy shooting up a theater or a cop murdering Rekia Boyd in cold blood, white violence is very often framed as tragic or mistaken, while violence by POC is framed as evil and criminal and POC are often assumed to be violent regardless of what's actually happening.

When I think about terrible things like this shooting, I find myself frightened and dismayed by them precisely because as a white middle class person in a non-abusive relationship, random violence (or conspiracy-theory right-wing violence) is the primary kind I'm likely to encounter. I mean, that's reasonable. I also end up wanting to be aware of other victims of ongoing violence, situations that are not as easy to perceive because they are not as shocking and do not happen on such an immediate scale.

*I will go ahead and say that I think people who commit mass shootings are all, without exception, mentally ill. Some of them are right wing assholes who are mentally ill; some of them are people with various kinds of PTSD; some of them, I am sure, fall into other categories; some of them, like that guy who shot people from the tower in the seventies (not the one who targeted women) might have organic brain problems. It's pretty disgusting that the existence of some violent mentally ill people is used by the ignorant and malign to assert that all mentally ill people are dangerous, violent, etc.
posted by Frowner at 6:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [17 favorites]


Agreed that we need to talk about that, but sick people without guns can't shoot anybody. This is a public safety emergency.
posted by moammargaret at 6:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


The theater can't make it so that the door doesn't open, nor is it necessarily a good idea to make all the alarms go off every time you open the door.

Until this very moment, I assumed that alarms went off when you opened the emergency doors.
posted by jeather at 6:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


And I hate to bring this up, because I really enjoyed the film, but ... No, not Batman, that other film.
posted by Catblack at 6:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Most interior walls are essentially hollow, Just thin membranes of wallboard and paint over structural framing. Maybe there's some insulation for sound in a theater. Nothing with any stopping power.

Yeah, I was assuming denser walls for the purposes of sound insulation.

Seriously? I think we need to talk about increasing low-cost and low-stigma mental health care.

While we need to do these things, I'd argue automatically assuming that mental illness is the sole motivator in any mass murder is adding to that stigma. Given a few hours, we will likely be able to rule out terrorism, but I'd argue not yet.
posted by hoyland at 6:58 AM on July 20, 2012


I'm in favour of gun control and better mental health care, but if the discussion is to be useful in any way it has to be based on the relevant facts of this case. Let's wait until we find out more - I bet it won't be longer than a day or two.

Frowner, I think the quote from Stephen Pinker is relevant to your second point - something about the culture prevents people from seeking proper help when they're feeling like shit.

ColdChef, I hope your friend's daughter is ok. I hope all the injured are ok. Fuck this is horrible.
posted by harriet vane at 6:58 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


roomthreeseventeen: "At this point, we have no idea what's relevant to this particular shooting."

Really, does it matter?

We ran out the last few news cycles (where gun control most certainly would have prevented similar tragedies) without actually making any progress to correct the issue.

If we need to have an offtopic derail to get us talking about a very serious issue, I'm fine with it.
posted by schmod at 6:59 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


As I understand it, mass killings in the US are mostly committed by white men.

No doubt, but in the US, there are also more white men than POC men. The real question would be if mass killings are committed at a higher rate by white men as opposed to POC men. I know that for serial killers, the idea that they're more likely to be white is actually just a myth, but I don't know about mass murderers.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Or am I woefully misunderstanding some property of movie theatre walls and/or bullets?

I think you're underestimating the power of a rifle. It's been confirmed I think that the shooter had two pistols and one long gun. I saw in one of the reddit threads that the rifle was of the AR-15 family, the infamous "black rifle". I have no idea if that is true, but if that is the case then we're talking about one of the weaker cartridges, 5.56 NATO. Certainly your standard slow-reloading bolt action hunting rifle chambered in .308 Winchester or .30-06 Springfield that you would find in any hunter's closet is going to be much, much more powerful with around 1.5x the muzzle energy and 3x the bullet mass. The 5.56 was designed to be a light-weight round that soldiers could hump easily, it's not particularly devastating in terms of penetration. But the mere fact that it's a rifle means it's absolutely going to go through walls. Rifles by design impart much more muzzle energy than pistols. You don't have to invoke some kind of super high-po cartridge.
posted by Rhomboid at 7:01 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


hoyland: "Given a few hours, we will likely be able to rule out terrorism, but I'd argue not yet"

Huh? If he had an agenda, this pretty clearly counts as terrorism.
posted by schmod at 7:01 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Most mentally ill people aren't violent.
-ShawnStruck

...and 99.9999...% of gun owners don't commit horrible acts like this shooting, Norway, VTech, Columbine, Fort Hood, etc. It seems to me that mass shootings require the shooter to be one of the ultra minority mentally ill who is violent, and one of the ultra minority of people who have guns that want to use them to hurt people. You can't base national politics on the smallest fraction of the smallest fraction of the smallest fraction of disturbed people.

To clear a few items up:

holyland - bullets penetrate, it's what they are designed to do. Regular full-metal jacket bullets have a copper jacket around a lead core, and these penetrate more than hollowpoints. Hollowpoints have a void in the tip of the bullet and are designed to expand when they hit a target so that they expend their energy in the target, and also so they don't pass through and hit anything else.

An automatic weapon is one that fires multiple rounds of ammunition with one press off the trigger - it will continue firing until the trigger is released or the ammunition runs out. These have been banned for something like 25-30 years already, and usually cost tens of thousands of dollars and a lot of red tape and scrutiny by the ATF.

Assault weapon is an invented term for a rifle that was designed for the police or military, or that looks or functions similar to the same. The rounds they fire are usually less scary than the rounds that hunting rifles fire. They look scary to people that have no experience with them. They usually use detachable magazines with capacities up to 30 rounds.

I am a former Marine, and have a license to carry, and carry everywhere that is legal. If I was in that theater there is no f-ing way I would have tried to do anything besides get whoever I was with and myself the hell out of there safely as fast as possible.

I think our collective outrage would be better served discussing why we've massively defunded mental health care across the nation.
-Catblack

Definitely.

I think people who do this stuff are by definition deranged.

I don't know, stuff like this is almost too fucked up to base rational arguments on, because humans are so emotional and we can't think about risks and threats in rational ways. I do know that outlawing all guns, or certain types/ shapes/ colors/ magazines/ features is a stupid way of addressing gun violence for a bunch of reasons.

My heart goes out to the victims of this shooting, the last one, and the next one.
posted by amcm at 7:04 AM on July 20, 2012 [57 favorites]


We average 55 lightning deaths per year, victory_laser -- they're just scattered all over the country, instead of concentrated. (2011 was an unusually good year, with about half that many, so the overall average does seem to be dropping.) I'd say the damage to families from lightning fatalities is just as valid as that from shooting fatalities.

And, hell, in TN, they have these overhead info boards where they recently started announcing the total traffic fatalities for the year. When I first saw it, I think in late May, it was 370-something. In late June, I think it was in the mid-400s. The number I saw either yesterday or the day before was 541. And that's fatalities, not injuries.

The only thing that's really different between a highway death and a movie theater death is that we think the theater is supposed to be safe and fun, while driving is 'an acceptable risk'. Deaths in a theater seem terribly shocking and unfair, and so we prioritize them far, far higher. But in terms of actual, objective harm done, the roads just in Tennessee have been about thirty-six times deadlier, and those deaths are concentrated into just 6.5 million people.... about 1/48th of the US population. 36 times the deaths in 1/48th the population.

So just running the numbers, Tennessee roads look to be about 1700 times more dangerous than random gun violence by nutcases. And that's just so far this year. 2 or 3 more people will probably die today.
posted by Malor at 7:04 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Why can't we talk about gun control AND the appalling state of mental health care at the same time? Both are relevant.

Unless we've preemptively ruled it out on the basis of no information, we might find ourselves needing to talk about the effects of political extremism on impressionable young people, too, down the road.

But there's not enough information available at this point to really do anything but feel awful for all those people and their families and offer them sympathy and if you're somehow in a position to, help.

But we shouldn't feel afraid to look unsympathetically and critically at any and all of the sociopolitical and psychological factors that go into making this kind of tragedy if we can get past all our private sociopolitical agendas long enough to do it.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:05 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Aurora PD press conference to be held 11:00 am MST. (source)
posted by tykky at 7:06 AM on July 20, 2012


So just running the numbers, Tennessee roads look to be about 1700 times more dangerous than random gun violence by nutcases. And that's just so far this year. 2 or 3 more people will probably die today.

Can we please just not do this kind of thing already? Or can the folks who want to have the pro/anti-gun law debate already while people are still bleeding start a metatalk thread or something?
posted by saulgoodman at 7:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I wonder what Mark Ames will have to say about this.

If we have to hear from a moralizer, let's select one with morals.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:08 AM on July 20, 2012


We had one of these assholes in Seattle a month or so back. probably didn't make the national news but some asshole shot some people downtown then drove up to north Seattle and shot a bunch of people in a coffee shop. Both events were near preschools that my kids attend so I got some terrifying emails about lockdowns you never ever want to receive.

Last big one in Seattle before that was some kid wandering into a house were a party was going on and shooting a bunch of people.

These are both since I've lives here, mind. Seattle is pretty sedate for this kind of thing.

These are not unique events, they are collisions of repeatable factors.
posted by Artw at 7:08 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]




Donate blood if you are eligible. It's needed everywhere, but especially in Aurora, Colorado.
posted by Carol Anne at 7:09 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


is this his page?
posted by robbyrobs at 7:11 AM on July 20, 2012


Can we please just not do this kind of thing already? Or can the folks who want to have the pro/anti-gun law debate already while people are still bleeding start a metatalk thread or something?

I wasn't going to post in this thread about this at all, saulgoodman, but the MeFi mods declared that this was the place to have the gun control discussion. They explicitly said so, and closed the Metatalk thread.

I'd be over there instead, if that was an option.
posted by Malor at 7:11 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


UPDATE: The young lady (I'll call her Katie) was on a cross-country trip with her best friend. Katie had just come back from a mission trip to Haiti and was taking some time off before starting college in the fall. They chose the Aurora theater at random and went to see the movie. When they walked into the crowded theater, the girl Katie was with wanted to sit close to the screen, but Katie insisted they sit towards the back, because that's where she's most comfortable. Fifteen minutes into the movie, the guy walks in, sets off tear gas. Throws a bomb into the seats where they were going to be sitting at first and begins shooting into the crowd. Katie and her friend hit the floor and tried desperately to get under their seats.

The guy walked through the aisles, shooting randomly. When he got to Katie, he paused, looked at her, and then shot her through the leg, shattering both of her tibia. Then, he moved on.

Her parents have friends with friends who had access to a corporate private jet and the parents are in the air right now on their way to Colorado. By complete coincidence, a local orthopedic surgeon from Louisiana (who is a family friend) was visiting his daughter in Denver, rushed to the hospital, realized who Katie was and has been with her and will stay with her until her parents get there.

Our small town is completely horrified.
posted by ColdChef at 7:11 AM on July 20, 2012 [74 favorites]


hoyland: "Given a few hours, we will likely be able to rule out terrorism, but I'd argue not yet"

Huh? If he had an agenda, this pretty clearly counts as terrorism.


I didn't mean to imply it didn't. I was trying to say 'Back off the nutter killing people' angle until there's actual information.

For whatever reason, we thankfully don't seem to get much terrorism in the US, so I'm kind of betting against an actual agenda. (I would argue that an agenda that consists of 'I don't like Joe and Joe went to the movie' or something shouldn't count as terrorism.)
posted by hoyland at 7:11 AM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by Neneh at 7:12 AM on July 20, 2012


I learned about this horrible event when my clock radio went off this morning. The morning zoo DJs gave the basics, everyone murmured their sympathy, and then, swear to god, the main DJ goes, "Welp! We've survived to another Friday! WOOOOOOOO!"

I hope they fire the insensitive fucknugget, but given the fact that the rest of the idiots in the studio joined in the WOOO, I'm not hopeful.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:19 AM on July 20 [3 favorites +] [!]


Stop listening. That will work.
posted by thinkpiece at 7:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Can we please just not do this kind of thing already? Or can the folks who want to have the pro/anti-gun law debate already while people are still bleeding start a metatalk thread or something?

Let me get this right, Saul. It's OK to suggest a connection between the shootings and Rush Limbaugh's deluded rants about Bain/Bane, but it's not OK to have the "pro/anti-gun law debate"?
posted by BobbyVan at 7:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


I'd be over there instead, if that was an option.

I didn't realize that. Sorry.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


According to Katie, she'd be dead if they'd have sat in the seats they originally intended to.
posted by ColdChef at 7:12 AM on July 20, 2012


The guy walked through the aisles, shooting randomly. When he got to Katie, he paused, looked at her, and then shot her through the leg, shattering both of her tibia. Then, he moved on.

Oh my god. Poor Katie. My thoughts are with you and yours, ColdChef.
posted by fight or flight at 7:13 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


This week is the one-year anniversary of the Breivik massacre...

They are still arguing about whether or not he is legally insane.
posted by melissam at 7:13 AM on July 20, 2012


ColdChef, I will pray for your friend Katie. Both for her physical health and what must be going through her head right now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:14 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]



Let me get this right, Saul. It's OK to suggest a connection between the shootings and Rush Limbaugh's deluded rants about Bain/Bane, but it's not OK to have the "pro/anti-gun law debate"?

No, you've got that wrong. It's okay to reply to someone who claims there's absolutely no way any sane person could view the premier of a new Bat Man movie with any political meaning with evidence that some very prominent people considered sane made exactly just such a connection, and in fact, publicly promoted the idea that such a connection existed.

I explicitly didn't want to get into the political angle. If you can find me another example of a prominent public figure or even lowly blogger who wrote or spoke about The Dark Knight Rises having political dimensions, I'd gladly substitute that example to make the point.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:16 AM on July 20, 2012


Michael Bloomberg calls on Obama and Romney to state position on gun control laws.

Michael Bloomberg: Guaranteed to be an ignorant, condescending, spotlight-grabbing douchenozzle in times of crisis.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:16 AM on July 20, 2012 [15 favorites]


Incidentally, if you do ever try to take cover behind a car, put the engine block between you and the shooter. It's your best chance.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:16 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


UPDATE: The young lady (I'll call her Katie) was on a cross-country trip with her best friend. Katie had just come back from a mission trip to Haiti and was taking some time off before starting college in the fall. They chose the Aurora theater at random and went to see the movie...

Jesus christ! How fucking random. When I get home today, I'm going to bear hug my little lady and never letting her go.
posted by NoMich at 7:17 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I want it put on record that if I am ever shot and killed, I will not consider it disrespectful at all if anyone immediately starts discussing what changes to law or government would make it less likely that anyone else would suffer the same fate.

In fact, I would consider it immensely disrespectful if the immediacy of my death were used as an excuse to silence prompt, relevant discussion of the very things that could have prevented it.
posted by grouse at 7:17 AM on July 20, 2012 [135 favorites]


It's okay to reply to someone who claims there's absolutely no way any sane person could view the premier of a new Bat Man movie with any political meaning with evidence that some very prominent people considered sane made exactly just such a connection, and in fact, publicly promoted the idea that such a connection existed.

I bet you $20 there's no connection. If I'm wrong, memail me and we'll work out some kind of payment (PayPal maybe?)
posted by to sir with millipedes at 7:20 AM on July 20, 2012


holy shit, coldchef, my thoughts go to your friends. What a horrible / fortunate (that a family friend surgeon was in town) combination of events.
posted by jonbro at 7:21 AM on July 20, 2012


Or am I woefully misunderstanding some property of movie theatre walls and/or bullets?
Movie theater walls today are generally light-gauge metal studs with 5/8 inch sheetrock on them, maybe two layers of sheetrock on each side but maybe not, maybe a layer of sound-deadening material but maybe not. Almost certainly some sound-deadening insulation inside that wall but certainly nothing that would stop a bullet.

And it would absolutely not need to be a rifle bullet, for the most part any handgun (9 millimeter is pretty much the baseline standard anymore) will shoot bullets that will blow through those walls easy as you'd put your hand through paper.

People upthread asking how many bullets in a modern semi-automatic pistol? 15 easily, Glock sells one that has a clip of 21 if I recall correctly, and most any popular semi-automatic handgun is going to have those after-market 30+ round magazines available for them. You can shoot them as fast as you can pull the trigger, can reload the clip easier and faster than I can describe it here, easily spray 60 bullets around in twenty seconds.
posted by dancestoblue at 7:21 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


This was a fucking automatic weapon. I mean seriously, a fucking automatic weapon, and three other guns, on a 24 year old civilian who clearly would not have passed a psych evaluation with flying colors.

Do you have a cite for that? All the article I read simply said the perp had a rifle and two handguns, nothing specific about them.


"The shooter used at least four guns -- an 'AK type' rifle, a shotgun and two handguns, the federal law enforcement official told CNN."
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 7:21 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


.

God. The case of victim Jessica Ghawi is particularly messed up...it's like Death was stalking her. She narrowly escaped the recent shooting in Toronto. And just hours before last night's shooting, she had this conversation with a friend on Twitter:

Jessica: My bro is 6'2 166 pounds. He has hyperthryoidism. He can't gain weight. I just watched him eat 8 tacos. Why didn't I get this "problem"?

Friend: because he, like me, has a life expectancy 20-30 years less than the rest of the healthy population.

Sadly, her life expectancy was even less. So, so sad.
posted by limeonaire at 7:22 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


grouse, favoriting you really hard. Mayor Bloomberg, grab this spotlight and force the two of them to discuss it.
posted by thinkpiece at 7:22 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Assault weapon is an invented term for a rifle that was designed for the police or military, or that looks or functions similar to the same.

Utterly disingenuous. An assault rifle is an anti-personnel weapon characterized by a pistol grip, chambering for a medium/medium-small rifle round(with a few oddball exceptions), automatic or semi-automatic operation, and a large capacity magazine that is quickly and easily swapped out. They are designed to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible. Some people use them for hunting, but not many. They are primarily shooting range toys, and as we have seen, twice in one week, an effective weapon for mass murderers.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:23 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Something that really struck me, maybe more than really makes sense, is that the shaky iPhone footage on the scene swings down to show the most absolutely typical carpet from any multiplex theater, and not the clumps of sand and rocks and scrub brush that we would have found to be desensitizing. Sort of a shocking banality of evil moment. Every person everywhere has the ability to pierce the thin tissue of civilization without much trouble, yet so few do. Seems the defense that is needed is not barriers and fortifications, but individual connections.
posted by StickyCarpet at 7:24 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


I never said I thought there was a connection. My point was about the shooter's sanity, in the context of the possibility of this being terrorism discussed by others up-thread. Someone said something like "This can't be terrorism because no sane person would see this film premier as somehow a politically significant event." I only brought up Limbaugh because he provided a clear counterexample to the point.

Like I said: we don't have enough information, but none of it should be off the table for discussion once we know more.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:24 AM on July 20, 2012


No, you've got that wrong. It's okay to reply to someone who claims there's absolutely no way any sane person could view the premier of a new Bat Man movie with any political meaning with evidence that some very prominent people considered sane made exactly just such a connection, and in fact, publicly promoted the idea that such a connection existed.

I don't disagree (but do think that the idea that this is related to the Bain/Bane "controversy" is extremely far-fetched). I'm mainly objecting to your desire to shut down discussion about gun laws (which seems like a much more relevant topic).
posted by BobbyVan at 7:24 AM on July 20, 2012


Yes, there goes Michael Bloomberg again, talking about public safety in the context of a mass shooting. What an asshole!
posted by moammargaret at 7:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [23 favorites]


I wish I were religious so I could pray for people, so at least I could feel like I'm helping, but I'm just going to sit at my desk and cry instead ineffectually. What the fuck is wrong with the world?

Politicians better not blame the movie. Clearly we need a real Batman out there.
posted by Sayuri. at 7:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


We get lots of terrorism if you include the bombing and murder of abortion providers. It's just not called out as such.
posted by winna at 7:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


You know, there is such a thing as evil. This was an action of pure evil. Now for some of you, that kind of evil=mental illness. Whatever. But whatever you want to call it, I myself am perfectly satisfied with the label of evil.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


I'd like to think if a gunman was calming walking the aisle shooting people that I'd be the hero and DO SOMETHING. However, I think it is much more likely that I'd do the smart thing that katie did and try to make myself invisible on the ground.

I have two teenagers. If I start to think about the randomless of life too much I'll end up in the fetal position, whimpering.
posted by COD at 7:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Oh, and as for Rush Limbaugh's little screed, that is the most asinine thing I have ever read.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:29 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


That doesn't mean I don't think there's a possibility of some political motivation, though. These days, just about everybody's got some kind of firmly-held, idiosyncratic personal political convictions they carry around in their heads. I once had a close friend tell me (weirdly) that he could never vote for a Democrat because of what happened to Martha Stewart. When I pointed out that that happened under a Republican president, he just glazed over and repeated his original explanation. My wife and I have always been baffled about what was running through his head, and it clearly seemed to cause him a lot of confusion to think about--and this was a sane, relatively moderate guy... Many people (myself included) seem to get especially intense about their political views these days. That doesn't just effect the mentally ill.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:30 AM on July 20, 2012


The thing that upsets me most about this whole thing is that someone thought it was a good idea to bring a 3-month old baby to midnight showing at a movie theater.

I think you should scroll up and read ColdChef's update and consider if that is really the most upsetting thing about all of this.
posted by fight or flight at 7:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


I doubt that the choice of film for this maniac had anything to do other than the fact that, if you wanted to target a large room with few exits with plenty of darkness and noise to cover your actions, that was guaranteed to be packed to the rafters at a specified time, the obvious candidate would be the midnight screening of TDKR.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 7:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


From all accounts, it sounds like the shooter wore a gas mask and threw tear gas. Can we maybe discuss why a civilian would have tear gas? Is that legal? Really?

Also saw this comment on reddit that's worth noting here:
"I saw the Dark Knight Rises two hours ago. During the previews before the movie there was a trailer for a movie called Gangster Squad. In it, a group of supposed gangsters begins firing through a movie screen and then continues through it, presumably massacring everyone in the theater.
I don't know if trailers are standardized across movie theaters. But just thinking that there's a possibility that those people saw that trailer before it all happened gives me chills."
posted by Catblack at 7:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Yes, there goes Michael Bloomberg again, talking about public safety in the context of a mass shooting. What an asshole!

He's asking for the candidates to state their position on gun control laws. He has several decades' worth from both, including 4 years of national law from one, which makes it look like he just wants people to see his name in the news feed. Which: Mission Accomplished. That's why I think he's an asshole.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


ColdChef, I'm glad your friend was not in her originally planned seat, and my prayers and thoughts are with everybody there.
posted by gauche at 7:33 AM on July 20, 2012


The irony with the Limbaugh/Bane stupidity is that Limbaugh would probably enjoy the *actual* political undertones of the movie if he bothered to see it (instead of just making nonsensical ramblings about the name of a character that has existed in the comic books for ~20 years having something to do with current-election-year politics), but unfortunately I can't go into any more detail about why I think this wit hout spoilering major plot points. :(
posted by Jacqueline at 7:33 AM on July 20, 2012


I'm mainly objecting to your desire to shut down discussion about gun laws (which seems like a much more relevant topic).

I've got no real power here, so do as you please. But it would be really tacky and a shame if it just turns into one of the typical, fractious GRAR-fests that gun control discussions sometimes become around here. The high level of emotional heat seems like it would make that more likely. It's hard to be reasonable when the emotional centers of the brain are already all fired-up.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:33 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Mod note: Some comments deleted. WhitenoisE stop trolling about the baby.
posted by taz (staff) at 7:34 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Utterly disingenuous. An assault rifle is an anti-personnel weapon characterized by a pistol grip, chambering for a medium/medium-small rifle round(with a few oddball exceptions), automatic or semi-automatic operation, and a large capacity magazine that is quickly and easily swapped out.

What Is An "Assault Rifle"? - You've Probably Been Lied To -- Youtube link, with a San Diego police officer. It will show you that what a gun LOOKS like is not that important, and that 'assault rifle' is a loaded word with no true definition. It's a media-frenzy word, designed to get your eyeballs and your outrage, not based in the factual world we actually live in.
posted by Malor at 7:36 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]




ColdChef, I'm glad your friend is ok (for a certain value of ok). What a bizarre combination of good and bad luck for her. I'm glad there's someone there with her even though she's so far from home.
posted by harriet vane at 7:37 AM on July 20, 2012


He's asking for the candidates to state their position on gun control laws.

Yeah, it's more like he's passively aggressively demanding that others discuss the public safety issues because he knows they're too politically touchy to discuss on his own. He's trying to put other people on the hot seat to talk about the public safety issues instead of taking it on himself, and that makes him look really sleazy here. And I say that as someone who sometimes has a little soft spot in my heart for Bloomberg, as he seems to be one the most independent-minded among his particular social milieu.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Is anyone familiar with work (academic or practical) about how as a practical matter you could actually regulate guns in the US at this point? It seems like after the last few decades of in-my-opinion terrible gun policy the horse has left the barn; guns are everywhere. Just as a matter of logistics, is there any way we *could* get rid of them again, short of the sort of door-to-door search by jackbooted thugs the NRA is always talking about?

I'd like to know if there are any plans that exist that could turn back the clock on US guns, or if we're all just whistling past the graveyard.
posted by gerryblog at 7:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


The irony with the Limbaugh/Bane stupidity is that Limbaugh would probably enjoy the *actual* political undertones of the movie if he bothered to see it

He read a column yesterday about how the entire series was a metaphor for political/social views that he agreed with.
posted by The Deej at 7:40 AM on July 20, 2012


What's the best way for us to help (at least financially, since I'm not sure how else) from far away?

Honestly? Not a ton of need for that. Not in terms of material or financial assistance anyway. Movie theaters, especially the big, swanky operations like this one, tend to be pretty well insured. They're facing the risk that a few hundred people could be injured in a fire or whatever.

This isn't a natural disaster where an entire community is physically destroyed. There's been no real property damage to speak of. This is a crime, and a horrible way, but there are only a few dozen direct victims, not thousands or tens of thousands. In terms of material resources, Aurora, CO and Colorado, generally, is entirely capable of dealing with it.

At this point your best options are probably (1) not cluttering up the local community's medical, legal, and insurance processes, and (2) supporting whatever political policies you believe to be appropriate in light of the tragedy.
posted by valkyryn at 7:40 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


.
posted by humanfont at 7:41 AM on July 20, 2012


Stop listening. That will work.

Oh definitely. I changed the station this morning.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:41 AM on July 20, 2012


This story hasn't hit the morning edition of the SF Chronicle. The ad for TDKR has a quote from the Newsweek review
... audiences will be blown away...
posted by jasper411 at 7:42 AM on July 20, 2012


Was the Batman movie shooting imitated from scene in 1985 comic?

Apparently you're unfamiliar with Betteridge's Law.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 7:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [18 favorites]


> Stop listening. That will work.

Oh definitely. I changed the station this morning.



Also, letting the station know why you've stopped listening may be called for....

(I am being sincere. I agree that that wasn't cool, and I think they should know it.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Yeah, it's more like he's passively aggressively demanding that others discuss the public safety issues because he knows they're too politically touchy to discuss on his own.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other Bloomberg? His views on gun control are reasonably well known.
posted by zamboni at 7:44 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Re: Assault Rifles... I am not too knowledgeable on it, but it seems like the UK rule for semi-automatic rifles makes sense. You can't have anything larger than a .22 rimfire that is semi auto. While the definition of assault rifle may be murky, the definition of 'rifle' and 'semi-auto' is not.

Although it too a similar massacre in the UK for that legislation to come into place in the uk. Also I don't know how much of a difference it would have made if this was done with a small calibre rifle.

Oh, and you can't have any handguns that aren't muzzle load. That would be cool too.
posted by jonbro at 7:44 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


What Is An "Assault Rifle"? - You've Probably Been Lied To

Good thing these people are going to rip the scales from our eyes with no loaded terms designed to get our eyeballs and outrage
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:44 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


.
posted by Isadorady at 7:45 AM on July 20, 2012


It will show you that what a gun LOOKS like is not that important, and that 'assault rifle' is a loaded word with no true definition.

I just gave you a true definition that covers functional, not aesthetic, features. This "no such thing as an assault rifle" nonsense ignores the history of firearms, and that alone makes it unforgivable to the nerd in me, never mind my political position.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:46 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Kid, did you actually watch the video? Before you express any opinion whatsoever on gun control, you should take the ten minutes to understand what that police officer is trying to show you.
posted by Malor at 7:46 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


just gave you a true definition that covers functional, not aesthetic, features.

Again, watch the video. That guy knows a lot more about guns than you do.
posted by Malor at 7:46 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Police chief just said the shooter's apartment appears to be booby trapped.
posted by mediated self at 7:48 AM on July 20, 2012


To me, what’s particularly horrifying is that Holmes’ mother knew immediately that her son was the “right person.” That speaks volumes about what warning signs there might have been, and went ignored or at least unattended.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:48 AM on July 20, 2012 [18 favorites]


I'm watching the 9News livestream right now. According to the police, the shooter boobytrapped his apartment with flammable material.
posted by Neilopolis at 7:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


That guy knows a lot more about guns than you do.

I strongly doubt it.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Perhaps you're thinking of some other Bloomberg? His views on gun control are reasonably well known.

No, I just mean specifically it seems a little sleazy to immediately call on Obama and Romney to state their position on gun regulations, rather than immediately issuing a forceful statement expressing his own views--but then again, I guess I keep forgetting, mayors probably need Federal help nowadays to enact any gun regulations, unlike pretty much any point in the past, thanks to that recent Supreme Court decision against D.C. (which as I recall, Obama supported--might be the case that neither major candidate wants to support any changes to gun law, since that would suddenly make everyone's dumb ass NRA bumper stickers look eerily prescient in certain eyes...).

If the NRA is really serious about gun rights as a serious line of defense against the potential tyranny of the Federal government, why the hell aren't they out there demanding access to tactical nukes and armored tanks and precision drones again? I'm still not satisfied with the explanations I've gotten on that one.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:50 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's really odd to hear Obama giving a somber and sober speech on the tragedy before a cheering campaign crowd...
posted by BobbyVan at 7:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]




To respond to my own rapidly receding question, the only plan I've ever heard that seems like it could even be halfway effective is to give up on guns and regulate the sale of bullets.
posted by gerryblog at 7:54 AM on July 20, 2012


Obama asked for a moment of silence for the victims of this shooting and their loved ones "and the victims of less publicized shootings that happen every day" (or words to that effect). Good on him for making that simple point.
posted by Eyebeams at 7:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [27 favorites]


... Just as a matter of logistics, is there any way we *could* get rid of them again, short of the sort of door-to-door search by jackbooted thugs the NRA is always talking about?
posted by gerryblog at 9:38 AM on July 20


If you can think of a way to get rid of them short of door to door forceful removal of them (and even with that -- people would bury them, do whatever to keep them, once it got out what was happening), you'd be the hero of our times. It'd be political suicide for anyone to have it happen on their watch, so you're not going to get any help there.
posted by dancestoblue at 7:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Comic books and video games cause violence. The venue for this tragedy is no coincidence.

Yeah, I'm being a facetious asshole. But that is exactly what the gun control opportunism sounds like. It's no different than what got us racial profiling, the TSA, and the Patriot Act after 9/11.
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 7:59 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Thinking that gun control will keep guns out of the hands of criminals is very similar to thinking that drug control means they'll never be able to get high.

This statement is nearly meaningless because the word "control" is so undefined. However disastrous the "war on drugs" has been, society does, in fact, "control" the distribution and use of pharmaceuticals in a variety of ways. Unless you're advocating for an entirely unregulated system for the production and distribution of pharmaceuticals, some degree of pharmaceutical "control" will be implicit in any modern code of laws. Similarly with firearms. Concede that and the question is merely what kind of control; reject that you reject modern civilization.

Anyway, kudos, Malor, for trying to sell lollies at funerals.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


(And yes I know that's a Chris Rock routine too. But it could work damnit.)
posted by gerryblog at 8:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


When I visited that part of CO, I took a drive into some nearby wooded hills and took a hike, and came upon a number of shooting scenes, where people had set up targets and shot things. I remember the firepower at work, they were cutting trees in half with bullets and leaving empty casings and trash. I have to assume gun culture in CO is pretty wide spread and nobody would think twice about heading 5 miles out of the suburbs and blowing away trees with a semiauto. Where I'm from you can't do that.
posted by stbalbach at 8:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Comic books and video games cause violence. The venue for this tragedy is no coincidence

Arguable - as is the notion that guns themselves cause violence.

It is inarguable that high-capacity magazines and automatic weapons contributed, and significantly, to the death toll. Their purpose, the reason they were designed, was to kill large numbers of people in combat - they have no use in hunting or sport or even self defense. They're toys, and the gun-rights crowd is defending their right to own toys over the right of kids not to be shot by the dozen by lunatics.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:04 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


To respond to my own rapidly receding question, the only plan I've ever heard that seems like it could even be halfway effective is to give up on guns and regulate the sale of bullets.
posted by gerryblog at 9:54 AM on July 20 [+] [!]

I've got hundreds of bullets -- I love to shoot, I buy bullets when they turn up on sale -- and so do many other people; I'd go so far as to speculate that if a person has a gun they've at least two boxes of bullets, which is 100 rounds, plenty enough to do what this guy did. Next idea?
posted by dancestoblue at 8:04 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Perhaps you're thinking of some other Bloomberg? His views on gun control are reasonably well known.

As are his knowledge of the candidates' stances:
But Mr. Bloomberg said he could not support Mr. Romney because he disagreed with him on so many social issues, these two people said. The mayor mentioned two such issues: abortion rights and gun control.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:05 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


You know, there is such a thing as evil. This was an action of pure evil. Now for some of you, that kind of evil=mental illness. Whatever. But whatever you want to call it, I myself am perfectly satisfied with the label of evil.

Terms like evil preclude understanding. Horror can coexist with understanding, and sometimes understanding can diminish the horror. Not in this case, perhaps, but in the ones to come.

AceRock's post on the amok is my favorite among all these. It is comforting, in a way, to know that many of these incidents share a seemingly-common origin. Nice to know that there is a dark logic behind this seemingly irrational crime.
posted by Rory Marinich at 8:06 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


hoyland: "Given a few hours, we will likely be able to rule out terrorism, but I'd argue not yet"

This will never be named "terrorism." I mean, yes, here, and in other places where logic and critical thinking are the general rule, it will be named terrorism, but the national discourse will never, ever, ever use the term "terrorism" when referring to a white man's actions, no matter how much they are FUCKING TERRORISM.

There is so much about this that is appalling. I'm torn between continually actively engaging in the discussion because so many of the facets of this are important sociopolitical issues to me (gun control, mental illness and the lack of care for it, "videogames/comics/tv&movies cause real violence" etc.), or just going baout my day and ignoring it as best I can.

The thing is, I'm not sure I can put it out of my mind. This one is too much.
posted by tzikeh at 8:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


sick people without guns can't shoot anybody.

They can still stab people or make bombs. The use of guns in something like this is a symptom of a different problem. If taking away the guns means that the people who do these things switch to bombs, it might make the problem worse. I think we're better off treating the disease.

We can debate whether or not this guy is mentally ill (I think he is) but will anyone argue that a person doing something like this is mentally healthy?
posted by VTX at 8:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


I'm not asking for a plan that could solve it tomorrow. I'm asking for one that could solve it *eventually.*
posted by gerryblog at 8:09 AM on July 20, 2012


It's a media-frenzy word, designed to get your eyeballs and your outrage, not based in the factual world we actually live in.

I don't care what you call any rifle or gun. I just want people to tell me in what circumstance they envision themselves needing a gun like a Glock that shoot 30 bullets to "defend themselves" against home invasion or a mugging.

You know, I wasn't even going to go into this thread. Because I've been in favor of stricter gun control for decades. And long ago it became a giant wall to beat your head against, similar to the long fight for sensible national healthcare.

But I first heard of this massacre, on, of all places, a website where I check for updates on how Gabrielle Giffords is doing. And then by habit I came to Metafilter to look for a thread. And here I noted someone said they couldn't remember if there's been many mass shootings outside of schools or workplaces.

Is that an example of how prevalent gun violence is in the U.S., that well-informed, smart people have already forgotten a notorious shooting at a supermarket 18 months ago?

Or perhaps the OP was merely defining that shooting differently. In that case, to paraphrase what someone said above, we have so many massacres we can break them down into types. Kind of like categories of hurricanes.
posted by NorthernLite at 8:10 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Terms like evil preclude understanding. Horror can coexist with understanding, and sometimes understanding can diminish the horror. Not in this case, perhaps, but in the ones to come.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.
posted by BobbyVan at 8:10 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


I'd go so far as to speculate that if a person has a gun they've at least two boxes of bullets, which is 100 rounds, plenty enough to do what this guy did. Next idea?

Sure... but if bullets were prohibitively expensive, it'd introduce a barrier to gun ownership that doesn't currently exist. If I want a gun for 'protection', there's probably a limit to how much I'm willing to pay. You could, in theory, price people out of that impulse. (Now, we know this only sort of works for cigarettes. And saying 'Okay, rich people, have all the guns you want, but we'll make sure the proles can't afford them' is kind of fucked up, but ignore that for a second.)
posted by hoyland at 8:10 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


As has been pointed out, that reddit timeline is pretty good.
posted by Eyebeams at 8:11 AM on July 20, 2012


They can still stab people or make bombs. The use of guns in something like this is a symptom of a different problem. If taking away the guns means that the people who do these things switch to bombs, it might make the problem worse. I think we're better off treating the disease.

Why is it only an either/or? I think it is entirely possible to both provide services for mental health and yet attempt to restrict the flow of the deadliest weapons into the hands of civillians. Many countries do that.

Does it guarantee that no gun murders will ever occur again? Of course not. It's a shitty argument to compare gun regs to drug regs and go "look, they don't work so why bother?". I'm from Canada -- criminals here still find ways to get guns, and tragedies still ensue. But nowhere near on the scale that they do in the US, and "mass" shootings more often than not result in <3 deaths, precisely because the thugs generally can't get access to the deadliest kind of automatic weapons, which they would be able to get in the US.
posted by modernnomad at 8:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Yeah, it's more like he's passively aggressively demanding that others discuss the public safety issues because he knows they're too politically touchy to discuss on his own. He's trying to put other people on the hot seat to talk about the public safety issues instead of taking it on himself, and that makes him look really sleazy here.

WTF? Bloomberg is probably the only breathing politician in the country who "takes [gun control] on himself".
posted by zvs at 8:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


The Daily Mail speculates, with absolutely zero basis:

As speculation mounts about the motive behind the mass shooting, one private investigator has said that Holmes may have been part of Occupy Wall Street's most violent faction Occupy Black Bloc.

Bill Warner told how the Batman movie portrays the OWS crowd in a negative vein, leading him to believe that may have been a cause behind gunman's rage.

Pretty disgraceful, right there.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:12 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]




Just pulled this off twitter, so no cite available, but: "Last year gun deaths by country:
35 in Australia, 39 in England and Wales, 194 in Germany, 200 in Canada, 9,484 in US."
posted by modernnomad at 8:14 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


VTX: will anyone argue that a person doing something like this is mentally healthy?

The problem is that the definition of "mentally ill" is sometimes difficult to pin down. There are many bright-line cases, and there are many "yeah, probably" cases, and then... well, it's a highly contentious thing to say, but sometimes there are cases of people who don't fall within the parameters set by the psychiatric community as "mentally ill," but are just really, really angry and/or despondent and/or feeling so impotent that they choose to do something rather than nothing, in the (vain) hope that it will somehow assuage their distress.

We don't like to talk about that much.
posted by tzikeh at 8:14 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Pretty disgraceful, right there.

I may have a contender.

Louie Gohmert: Aurora Shootings Result Of 'Ongoing Attacks On Judeo-Christian Beliefs':
Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) said Friday that the shootings that took place in an Aurora, Colo. movie theater hours earlier were a result of "ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs" and questioned why nobody else in the theater had a gun to take down the shooter.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


To respond to my own rapidly receding question, the only plan I've ever heard that seems like it could even be halfway effective is to give up on guns and regulate the sale of bullets.

The Second Amendment almost certainly covers ammunition just the same as guns. U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, 180 (1939). One can also refer to the case holding that taxes on ink and paper are a violation of the First Amendment. Basically, regulating consumables used in the exercise of a constitutional right is tantamount to regulating the exercise of that right.

With regard to the shooting itself: it does not shock me. Back in 2007 one of the Freakonomics authors asked "If You Were a Terrorist, How Would You Attack?" It was linked on MeFi as well. I emailed the author with my suggestion, which was an opening night coordinated attack on movie theaters using readily-available semi-automatic weapons. I speculated that the likely response would be mandated airport-style security at theaters and a tremendous amount of economic damage to the movie industry. Since this was only a single attack and may not have been politically motivated (we'll see), I don't know what the fallout will be like.
posted by jedicus at 8:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


The Daily Mail speculates

Jesus, Just as I was feeling smugly British about gun control here comes the Daily Mail to lower the tone of the argument even further
posted by brilliantmistake at 8:15 AM on July 20, 2012


All right, since the on-line Right already apparently thinks it's a foregone conclusion that "the others" are opportunistically trying to associate the killer with the Tea Party (which is how they would react regardless of what the facts are, evidently, since they are reacting that way now without any facts) I think we really need to look closely into why it's next to impossible to talk about any potentially politically charged subject like this honestly anymore.

WTF? Bloomberg is probably the only breathing politician in the country who "takes [gun control] on himself".

Again, my comment wasn't about Bloomberg on gun control generally; just this particular statement in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:17 AM on July 20, 2012


The Daily Mail speculates, with absolutely zero basis:

Brian Ross of ABC News was the worst today. He pointed viewers to the website of the Colorado Tea Party, which lists as a member a "Jim Holmes." Though he cautioned viewers "Now, we don't know if this is the same Jim Holmes," that doesn't excuse such shockingly reckless reporting. Naming a political movement as potentially involved is one thing. Naming an individual with no basis aside from sharing the same (common) name and town is quite another...

I wonder if "Jim Holmes" has a legal case against ABC News. At the very least, Ross and any producers involved should be fired.
posted by BobbyVan at 8:19 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


I would definatly name bullshit 24 hour news coverage as a factor.
posted by Artw at 8:22 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Tzikeh, that's kind of my point. This guy might not cross the line for the definition of mentally ill but no mentally healthy, well adjusted member of society does something like this.

He might not be "sick" but he certainly isn't healthy.
posted by VTX at 8:22 AM on July 20, 2012


VTX: They can still stab people or make bombs.

Ridiculous. It's much easier to walk into a theater with a completely legal loaded gun or two, plus backup magazines and kill 14 people than it would be with a knife or bomb. It's easier to kill them from a longer distance, and with more 'discretion', as well.

I'm sure you knew that, though.

Yet another reason this native Texan will most likely be buried in Europe when the time comes. I have no interest in sharing space with armed idiots. I'll stick to Austria, with sane gun control laws and a per capita homicide rate about one tenth of that in the US.
posted by syzygy at 8:23 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Yeah no way there could be two "Jim Holmes"-es in a town of ~80,000 people right?
posted by Eyebeams at 8:23 AM on July 20, 2012


.

The Daily Mail speculates... don't give them traffic, they're the British cross between Fox and... whichever tabloid it is that carries running Batboy coverage...
posted by Vetinari at 8:24 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


cross between Fox and... whichever tabloid it is that carries running Batboy coverage

Those are separate?
posted by zombieflanders at 8:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Don't associate the Weekly World News with that trash on Fox and The Daily Mail.
posted by demiurge at 8:29 AM on July 20, 2012 [26 favorites]


Thanks MetaFilter for summarizing shitty news sites so I never have to click on them.
posted by Rory Marinich at 8:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


@BarbaraStarrCNN reports Pentagon officials say service members are among the casualties in the Colorado shooting
posted by madamjujujive at 8:31 AM on July 20, 2012


I can't stop thinking about that little kid leaving the theater in his Batman costume.
posted by mediareport at 8:31 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Naming an individual with no basis aside from sharing the same (common) name and town is quite another...

This is how news works these days, unfortunately. They just take shots in the dark and see what sticks. I share a fairly uncommon last name with the NIU shooter who killed 5 people and ultimately himself. My land line phone number was listed. It didn't take long for my phone to start ringing constantly from news organizations across the country, asking if I was related to him (I'm not).

The creepiest was the hand-delivered hand-written note from a Good Morning America producer that was written as if they knew I was related, imploring me to tell his story since he was no longer able to, etc. I realized this was an intentional tactic -- if I had been related to him, I would have no way of knowing this was just a shot in the dark on the part of the news people. I would have assumed they had some information confirming it. It pissed me off so much on behalf of those that ARE related to people that make news in some way or the other, and who get ambushed by news organizations like that.
posted by misskaz at 8:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [20 favorites]


To me guns make lethal violence too easy. Yes, someone can kill with knives, or if the desire presents itself with an IED. But the one generally is much harder and easier to overwhelm, while the other requires a certain risk you are going to blow yourself up by accident and also tends to require much more pre-thought then waking up one day and deciding to kill a bunch of people.

Yes, if someone want to kill a bunch of people there is always going to be a way to do that. But, *I* think reasonable steps to make it more difficult to do so are warranted, and that as it stands firearms make it too easy to commit said violence. And I believe that setting a much higher bar to gun ownership should be one of those reasonable steps.

I understand people disagree, and I concur that reasonable people that own guns are, by and large, not a threat. But, I think people overestimate the number of reasonable people, and that a reasonable person one day is a layoff, rejection, divorce, $_x away from having a really unreasonable day. Additionally I believe that Americans are just too much in love with firearms as the potential cure for various ills.

So, call me emotional, and thinking with whatever part of my brain, but these are beliefs I've held prior to this tragedy and will be in the aftermath, and when the next one happens because I have no doubt that this will not end the long American obsession with guns. If school shootings, and the shooting of a beloved Conservative American President where unable to affect gun control discourse this sure as hell will not.


see you in the next gun assisted massacre thread.
posted by edgeways at 8:32 AM on July 20, 2012 [25 favorites]


This same thing could have happened with a homemade bomb. He brings it to the back of the theater, knocks on the door, tosses it in and detonates. Maybe the outcome is worse, maybe it's less bad.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't have solid gun control. I take the 2nd amendment seriously but I think there should be MUCH greater scrutiny of a person before their able to buy a gun. My point is that just "taking away all the guns" doesn't necessarily solve the problem or even lessen it for these kinds of acts.

Gun control and better mental health services are not mutually exclusive but we do have limited resources in both money and political will. I think greater good will be accomplished by focusing on mental health.
posted by VTX at 8:33 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


When I can stop thinking about that little kid leaving the theater in his Batman costume, I immediately start thinking about the gun show loophole and wonder if that's where the suspect got his weapons.
posted by mediareport at 8:34 AM on July 20, 2012


Gun control does not equal "taking away all the guns".
posted by gaspode at 8:34 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


misskaz, sorry you had to deal w/ phone calls and notes from producers, but it sounds like they were doing some actual shoe-leather reporting (perhaps clumsily). Can you imagine if they had gone to air identifying you as someone who might have been the shooter?
posted by BobbyVan at 8:35 AM on July 20, 2012


Fine, how about, "not even taking away all the guns..."?

Am I nit free now or do you need to pick some more?
posted by VTX at 8:37 AM on July 20, 2012


BobbyVan, I totally get and agree with what you're saying. It's not really an equivalent situation. But it still really bothers me that they didn't ASK if I was related. They wrote me a letter (and creepily hand delivered it to my house) and wrote it as if they knew I was related to him. I feel like that's not a good-faith way to open the conversation.
posted by misskaz at 8:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Just pulled this off twitter, so no cite available, but: "Last year gun deaths by country:
35 in Australia, 39 in England and Wales, 194 in Germany, 200 in Canada, 9,484 in US."


Numbers like this work against your case, not for it.

If you took Canada's firearm homicide rate and increased it to account for the different number of guns in the US and Canada, you'd only get half the actual US rate. If you scaled up Sweden's gun violence by the difference in the number of guns, you'd only get a little over a tenth of the US rate.

There is something in American society that breaks people so that they are psychologically capable of doing shit like this, or other gun violence, that is almost vanishingly rare in other societies.

That doesn't mean that better gun control would be pointless in the US, but it does mean that -- relative to other countries -- there will still be way more broken people looking to lash out at the world, and many of them will still find a way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


I don't understand why people are hating on Bloomberg. Gun laws in NYC are fairly reasonable. I owned a hunting rifle there and registration took some time, but it was not a huge deal at all and there are two rifle ranges in NYC city limits that are open for members of the public to join (though you have to go through a membership approval process). Outside the city, there aren't many restrictions on rifles at all. Handguns are more highly regulated, but I knew people who had those too. Contrast with Chicago, where using a rifle anywhere in the state requires a FOID card and there are no ranges in city limits. Hopefully not a derail, but n-thing the Gun control does not equal "taking away all the guns". It just means having some reasonable oversight on the matter. Didn't prevent what happened in Norway, but I think it's always a good idea to have some barrier to entry for the most dangerous types of guns. I mean, a lot of arguments against gun control here and elsewhere seem to me like "what's the point of having sidewalks if some crazy car could jump the curb."
posted by melissam at 8:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:39 AM on July 20, 2012


There is something in American society that breaks people so that they are psychologically capable of doing shit like this, or other gun violence, that is almost vanishingly rare in other societies.

Maybe it's the whole being surrounded by gun culture and suffering from more gun related violence than other countries?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:40 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


My point is that just "taking away all the guns" doesn't necessarily solve the problem or even lessen it for these kinds of acts.

I doubt anybody is arguing for taking all the guns. But is it really that crazy to argue for a maximum of two guns per person, stronger background checks, longer waiting times, and for the banning of automatic rifles?
posted by Omon Ra at 8:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


There is something in American society that breaks people so that they are psychologically capable of doing shit like this, or other gun violence, that is almost vanishingly rare in other societies.

I don't think we're wicked, I just think we have a lot of guns and basically no mental health safety net.
posted by gerryblog at 8:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


XQUZYPHYR: Yup.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 8:45 AM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by likeatoaster at 8:45 AM on July 20, 2012


I normally really dislike This Modern World, though I'm in agreement with his politics a good bit of the time. The link above is the powerful, rare exception.
posted by absalom at 8:47 AM on July 20, 2012


It is generally known here in Maine and most country locales in the U.S.: don't go down a dirt road unless you have a reason to be there. Dogs and guns and people with bear spray may await you.

My husband used to own guns, and once had a concealed weapon permit (he had guns for going to the shooting range, not hunting and not really self defense, he also collects knives and knows martial arts). It is common to see people walking around with holstered weapons at the grocery store (I saw a guy walking to his car in the parking lot in Augusta last week, openly carrying a holstered handgun).

I think to understand the gun culture in the U.S., you have to live here a while. I have lived in the city and in the country, and I am way more afraid of people in cities owning guns than I am here in the country.

One time, we were driving up North and ended up in the hill country. We then came upon about 30 guys in a field, targets set up for a turkey shoot practice session. If you can think of a way to go up to those guys and tell them they can't have guns anymore, I will eat my hat with gravy. Ain't gonna happen.

I am not for guns and violence, in fact, I asked my husband to sell his last hand gun, as he wasn't going to the shooting range anymore and I was uncomfortable having one in my house, especially with the crack heads up the street breaking into our car, right outside our bedroom window, and stealing his jackknives (most likely to pawn for drugs). Our building had no security doors, and drugged up kids were running through the halls at 2:00 a.m. nightly. Anyone could climb through the windows, I did it a few times when one of my neighbors got locked out. Didn't want even the remotest chance that someone desperate for 8-ball would break in and steal his gun and perhaps sell it to someone who might use it for nefarious purposes.

I don't have the answers to prevent people from obtaining automatic weapons (I used to have an AR-15 and carried bullets in my apron pocket due to yet again, crack heads walking up to my door and peering through the window when I was home alone, just cocking it was enough to keep people away, maybe we should start selling gun-cocking noise doorbells). Being surrounded by Revolutionary War statues, forts, and cannons, we are reminded here on a daily basis that if we give up our rights, we place ourselves in the hands of the Federal government. I'm sorry, but I don't trust any government that much.

I don't own weapons anymore, beyond jackknives for utilitarian purposes, and a few walking sticks, two bullwhips, and some legal self-defense tools, but I would not want an officer coming to my door and telling me to hand over my weapons because it will make the world a safer place, Citizen. Taking weapons from me is not going to make the world a safer place, as I am a soap maker and a writer (and I rarely enter post offices). We need to address the underlying issues as to WHY people commit mass murders and what, if anything, can be done to prevent them. Are there any signs? Or do people just decide one day to pick up a gun and spray a roomful of people with it? I don't think so. It was planned. There are no ways to get into the minds of deranged men, and yes, automatic weapons are not a good thing, and frankly, I'd rather have a can of bear or wasp spray, because then I can't get sued for killing someone in self-defense (don't have to load it and it keeps bears away too). I'm just saying: gun regulation in America is wishful thinking at this point in time.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 8:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [19 favorites]


There is something in American society that breaks people so that they are psychologically capable of doing shit like this, or other gun violence, that is almost vanishingly rare in other societies.

They are vanishingly rare in America too. The odds of dying in something like this are minuscule. and they happen in other countries too. I agree the US is over-represented and that this indicates something about our culture (though other countries on that list like Finland have very small populations), but this is a very tiny risk to most people. It is however more dramatic, which is why it will get more publicity than the stunning and horrifying amounts of warzone-level deaths on places like Chicago's West Side, which is far more unique to a first world country like the US.
posted by melissam at 8:48 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Didn't want even the remotest chance that someone desperate for 8-ball would break in and steal his gun and perhaps sell it to someone who might use it for nefarious purposes.

Taking weapons from me is not going to make the world a safer place
posted by zamboni at 8:50 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


Good suggestion from the anchors on 9News at the stream linked way upthread: Wherever you are in the world, do something kind for someone today.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Being surrounded by Revolutionary War statues, forts, and cannons, we are reminded here on a daily basis that if we give up our rights, we place ourselves in the hands of the Federal government. I'm sorry, but I don't trust any government that much.

Yeah, your "cocking noises" are really going to keep your militarized police force out of your house, not to mention the Federal government.

Your comment reads like an NRA brochure. No reasoning, but plenty of emotion, racist dog whistles, and appeals to patriotism. Thank god people like you are keeping the country safe.
posted by OmieWise at 8:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [17 favorites]


ROU_Xenophobe: That doesn't mean that better gun control would be pointless in the US, but it does mean that -- relative to other countries -- there will still be way more broken people looking to lash out at the world, and many of them will still find a way.

This is what the entire "Bowling for Columbine" movie is about. It's frightening, to me, and that's coming from a guy who used to own an AR-15, and really an unbelievable (to me, now) number of guns. I gave them all to my best friend, who's a police officer, for 'safe keeping' years ago. He pulls them out so we can have a look at them every once in awhile when I come into town for a visit. The sheer number and variety always astounds me. Why did I ever feel I needed them? He keeps going back to his closet to grab more. Just when I think he's done, he brings out another armload. WTH?

gerryblog: I don't think we're wicked, I just think we have a lot of guns and basically no mental health safety net.

I think that's part of it, but I also think there's something about the USAmerican psyche. So many angry people. Angry at 'the other' without being able to coherently explain why. I think it's related to the 'I built it' idea. This isn't a society of people working together to make life better for everyone. It's a society of 'I got mine'. And if you didn't get yours, you're a loser who might just decide to lash out.

Dunno, it's hard to understand / fathom, but I'm glad to be far away from it, now.
posted by syzygy at 8:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


If taking away the guns means that the people who do these things switch to bombs, it might make the problem worse.

And yet countries with better gun control (please note: this does not involve coming to your door to take them away, or no guns ever, or whatever the NRA is afraid of) don't have disproportionate bombings, or knifings, or other-weapon-ings. This is like the health insurance thing all over again: the advantages of a different system are many, it's just that getting from where the US is now to where the rest of the world is, is a *really* difficult task.
posted by harriet vane at 8:53 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Editor's Note: An earlier ABC News broadcast report suggested that a Jim Holmes of a Colorado Tea Party organization might be the suspect, but that report was incorrect. ABC News and Brian Ross apologize for the mistake, and for disseminating that information before it was properly vetted.
posted by mediated self at 8:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


It seems to me it's harder to make a serious bomb than to buy a legal gun.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


I would not want an officer coming to my door and telling me to hand over my weapons because it will make the world a safer place, Citizen.

This shit is to gun control as Death Panels are to universal healthcare - a paranoid delusion brought on by excessive exposure to AM radio
posted by theodolite at 8:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [40 favorites]


I think there's anger throughout the weatern world, in England we had a summer of rioting chaos last year.

It would have been exponentially worse if there was easy access to efficient and deadly weapons .
posted by brilliantmistake at 8:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Now this is interesting. Guy was apparently a medical student until last month. This means he'd graduate from college with good grades. The mental illness hypothesis just got a bit less plausible.
posted by valkyryn at 8:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


There's a correlation between grades and mental illness?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:59 AM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


Brian Ross of ABC News was the worst today. He pointed viewers to the website of the Colorado Tea Party, which lists as a member a "Jim Holmes."

Now the Breitbarties are up in arms over Ross' shitty journalism. They are appalled that anyone could have such a careless and callous disregard for the facts. I mean, what would Andrew say?
posted by octobersurprise at 8:59 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


I doubt anybody is arguing for taking all the guns. But is it really that crazy to argue for a maximum of two guns per person, stronger background checks, longer waiting times, and for the banning of automatic rifles?

No, I don't, that's why I said, "I'm not saying that we shouldn't have solid gun control."

I kind of (but only kind of) disagree about owning automatic weapons. I think they should incredibly hard to acquire. It's tough because I think the 2nd amendment is important. I think that we, as citizens should always have the option for an armed rebellion if things ever really do get that bad. This is the only reason the 2nd amendment exists.

I don't buy into the home protection or hunting arguments. If I'm being responsible enough to own a gun that also means it's locked up tight enough that I'd have a hard time getting to it in the event of a break in and anyone that wants to break into my house isn't going to do it when I'm home anyways.

On the other hand, if we're going to have that much regulation and make darn sure that only people who won't go on shooting sprees, use them to commit murder, etc will own automatic weapons, we open the door to letting the federal government restrict access only to those who agree with its policies.

The mental health side of it is FAR more clear-cut for me.
posted by VTX at 9:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Man, just heard that the 10 who perished on the scene are still inside the theater.

I understand why they have to be, but it's still heart-wrenching to think of them lying there, when not so long ago the only thing on their minds was enjoying a movie they'd spent months looking forward to.

Gods be good.

Also, can't recommend the 9News Live stream enough. Excellent coverage, free of bullshit speculation and they provide clear explanations about when/why certain info changes (for example, why it went from 14 dead to 12 dead).
posted by lord_wolf at 9:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


People with high levels of intelligence can be mentally ill. Let's not get distracted.
posted by Night_owl at 9:00 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Of course, if Ross had linked to a Jim Holmes on an Occupy WallStreet website, Breitbart would have linked to it ton the front page.
posted by COD at 9:01 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Warner Bros. is going to pull the Gangster Squad trailer attached to prints of Dark Knight Rises.
posted by mediated self at 9:01 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


There's a correlation between grades and mental illness?

No, but often the disordered thinking that is part and parcel of severe mental illness increases the difficulty of even routine tasks, let alone medical school classes.
posted by infinitywaltz at 9:02 AM on July 20, 2012


This will never be named "terrorism." I mean, yes, here, and in other places where logic and critical thinking are the general rule, it will be named terrorism, but the national discourse will never, ever, ever use the term "terrorism" when referring to a white man's actions, no matter how much they are FUCKING TERRORISM.

I think the definition of 'terrorism' is that it involves using 'terror' attacks to further a political agenda, rather than just as an expression of hatred, nihilism, narcissism, despair or whatever it is that motivates killers like this.
posted by Flashman at 9:02 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


There's a correlation between grades and mental illness?

Not necessarily, but getting into medical school is hard. If he were a college dropout, yeah, okay, whatever. But he finished college and was in a fairly competitive medical school. They don't let just anybody in there.

Guy wasn't a hobo, is all I'm saying, nor is it likely he was some morose, disturbed loner like the guy who did the VT massacre.
posted by valkyryn at 9:02 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


This means he'd graduate from college with good grades. The mental illness hypothesis just got a bit less plausible.

Ted Kaczynski
posted by BobbyVan at 9:02 AM on July 20, 2012 [17 favorites]


Of course, if Ross had linked to a Jim Holmes on an Occupy WallStreet website, Breitbart would have linked to it ton the front page.

If Andrew Breitbart were linking anything at this point in time, it'd be a whole new thing to worry about.
posted by FatherDagon at 9:03 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Now the Breitbarties are up in arms over Ross' shitty journalism. They are appalled that anyone could have such a careless and callous disregard for the facts. I mean, what would Andrew say?

But, it's ok if they do it.
posted by stavrogin at 9:03 AM on July 20, 2012


The first picture of James Holmes
posted by arcolz at 9:04 AM on July 20, 2012


This morning I called on Warner Bros to take this trailer down immediately. The studio’s response to me? “There’s a meeting about this and then a decision will be reached.” I just received the call that the trailer is being pulled. But only after I complained.

Stay classy, Nikki.
posted by mediareport at 9:04 AM on July 20, 2012


There's a correlation between good grades and not killing anyone?
posted by emelenjr at 9:04 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


VTX, the federal government has nuclear weapons and predator drones. Does that mean citizens have the right to own them as well? If not, that's going to be a pretty half-assed Armed Rebellion.
posted by moammargaret at 9:05 AM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


If there's a correlation between grades and mental illness, I'd venture that high grades, not low grades, are a more likely marker. There were kids in my honors classes in high school who were a lot more scarily unhinged than any of the remedial kids.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 9:05 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


I have lived in the city and in the country, and I am way more afraid of people in cities owning guns than I am here in the country.

Also this is hilariously racist
posted by theodolite at 9:05 AM on July 20, 2012 [19 favorites]


Hopefully we have different expectations and standards for ABC News than we do for the Breitbart website network. Hopefully...
posted by BobbyVan at 9:05 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


ColdChef, for what it's worth, Katie and her family and friends have my best thoughts and wishes, as do all the victims of this tragedy. I hope her recovery is swift and complete.
posted by Gelatin at 9:06 AM on July 20, 2012


The first picture of James Holmes

How do we know? What's the source?
posted by BobbyVan at 9:06 AM on July 20, 2012


It seems to me it's harder to make a serious bomb than to buy a legal gun.

Pipe bomb = pipe, end caps, match heads, and a fuse or igniter. This is how Kaczynski got started.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:07 AM on July 20, 2012


Now this is interesting. Guy was apparently a medical student until last month. This means he'd graduate from college with good grades. The mental illness hypothesis just got a bit less plausible.

This is not only wrong (fallacy of false premise), but truly offensive.
posted by tzikeh at 9:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [20 favorites]


Hopefully we have different expectations and standards for ABC News than we do for the Breitbart website network.

The soft prejudice of low expectations, indeed.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:08 AM on July 20, 2012


I think that we, as citizens should always have the option for an armed rebellion if things ever really do get that bad. This is the only reason the 2nd amendment exists.

If that's really the case, then we probably ought to go ahead and repeal the 2nd amendment. The idea that, in 2012, even heavily armed citizens could mount any kind of effective resistance for more than a few weeks at most against their local police department, let alone the armed forces of the United States of America, is a fantasy.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 9:09 AM on July 20, 2012 [29 favorites]


I don't recall mentioning race. I had a white guy come up to my door at midnight with some scam about his father being in the hospital and his car had been towed, and could I give him money. He was shaking from crack withdrawal. But go ahead and think what you want about me being "racist." I was merely pointing out that cities have a higher rate of drugs and crime, not that we don't have our share of it in the country. I don't own a gun, but if I wanted to buy a shotgun for practice shooting or hunting, I don't want the government telling me too bad. I did say I don't like automatic weapons. But have fun making me your scapegoat. I'm out.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:10 AM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


I think there's anger throughout the weatern world,

It's called "a long recession".
posted by edgeways at 9:10 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


brilliantmistake: I think there's anger throughout the weatern world, in England we had a summer of rioting chaos last year.

Honestly, I worry that you all are taking too many cues from the people across the pond. Be careful you don't become too much like them.
posted by syzygy at 9:10 AM on July 20, 2012


but we do have limited resources in both money and political will
The people of Iraq and Afghanistan among others probably won't agree with you there.
$3.7 trillion at the last count. Some people even dare to think that America has got it's priorities wrong. I am one of them.
How many civilian massacres have there been in the in USA? and all we hear is ''....from my cold dead hands''. Fuck That.
posted by adamvasco at 9:10 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


How do we know? What's the source?

The local denver news said they found that picture on the University of Colorado's website, where Holmes was studying neuroscience.
posted by arcolz at 9:10 AM on July 20, 2012


Also this is hilariously racist

It doesn't have to be. I feel a similar way--I've lived in the city and the country--and there's a "I know my gun toting neighbors" feeling here in rural Vermont (where we have a pretty heavy gun owning population but a pretty low gun violence rate) which I did not have when I lived in Seattle.
posted by jessamyn at 9:11 AM on July 20, 2012 [24 favorites]


Another picture of James Holmes:

http://twitpic.com/show/large/a9qxej
posted by BoatMeme at 9:13 AM on July 20, 2012


>This means he'd graduate from college with good grades. The mental illness hypothesis just got a bit less plausible.

Ted Kaczynski


Doesn't seem to have been crazy.
posted by valkyryn at 9:14 AM on July 20, 2012


Now this is interesting. Guy was apparently a medical student until last month. This means he'd graduate from college with good grades. The mental illness hypothesis just got a bit less plausible.

You may want to look at your assumptions here. For example Schizophrenics can be quite high functioning individuals prior to onset of symptoms. Which tend to show up in the patients early 20's.

None of which indicates that we know anything about this person or this incident yet just clearing up mental health related misconception.
Also

.
posted by The Violet Cypher at 9:14 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


A friend's sister murdered their mother before trying to kill herself very late in her medical school career. (She may have even recently graduated.) What happened is she discovered she was going blind, which meant she couldn't be the surgeon she'd spent her entire life preparing to be - and having decided to kill herself, she didn't want to leave her siblings to deal with the mother's abuse alone.

What I'm saying is psychotic breaks can strike high achievers too. Definitely.
posted by gerryblog at 9:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


Also this is hilariously racist

What? No, it's not. You're making silly assumptions.
posted by Shepherd at 9:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


I don't own a gun, but if I wanted to buy a shotgun for practice shooting or hunting, I don't want the government telling me too bad. I did say I don't like automatic weapons.

Well, to me that reads like you're pro-gun control.

As I said above, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Look, I'm from New Zealand. Rural New Zealand. I shot rabbits and possums when I was reasonably young. I and many of my friends grew up with guns. I knew more people with guns than without. And yet, NZ has gun control. You can't just go buy 'em at the big box store. You can't get automatic weapons. And there is not nearly the amount of gun violence, per capita.
posted by gaspode at 9:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


[Ted Kaczynski] seem to have been crazy.

He suffers from paranoid schizophrenia.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:16 AM on July 20, 2012


Bad link.
Schizophrenia.
posted by The Violet Cypher at 9:16 AM on July 20, 2012


For those of us who don't have access to the live coverage, can someone explain why the death toll went down? Were people counted twice?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:17 AM on July 20, 2012


"Crackhead" is a very racially loaded and coded word. Its inclusion in a diatribe about the drug addicts of the inner city is, of course, going to make the entire screed seem racist.

Now, someone is going to say "there are plenty of white crack addicts" and, yes, there are. However, "crackhead" is still a racially coded word.
posted by absalom at 9:18 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


Pipe bomb = pipe, end caps, match heads, and a fuse or igniter. This is how Kaczynski got started.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:07 PM on July 20


Gun = point loaded gun, move finger just a teensy bit. Over and over again.

Man, until you people get this fundamental point, there's no chance for America.
posted by Decani at 9:18 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


cities have a higher rate of drugs and crime

er... well having lived in medium cities and small towns and "the country" I'd counter that the smaller communities are much better about under reporting their drugs and crime. The druggiest school I ever attended when I was young was in Mt. Juliet TN, pretty damn rural, cripes on toast, even the teachers got busted for dealing to kids. Huge % of the meth making it into the cities come from the farmlands around here. And some of the worst sexual abuse coverups I know of are from small towns in Iowa (where everyone knows everyone and there is no way the local so and so could possibly do THAT to his kids, nosireebob). center of the Militia movement a few years back? The U.P in MI.

So... I can understand why rural areas feel safer (I certainly like living there better myself), but there are times, given the systemic under-reporting I have seen, when I really question the notion that they really are proportionately less crime and drugs than most cities.
posted by edgeways at 9:18 AM on July 20, 2012 [16 favorites]


It's really odd to hear Obama giving a somber and sober speech on the tragedy before a cheering campaign crowd...

Obama scrapped a partisan speech for the day. Romney has also pulled his campaign adds in Colorado for today, apparently.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:19 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


valkyryn's a lawyer, right? He may be using the fairly rarefied legal standard for incapacitation as opposed to common usage, in which case you'd (pretty much always) have trouble making the claim a person is mentally ill.
posted by gerryblog at 9:19 AM on July 20, 2012


Moammargaret: I think that, on a basic level, the 2nd amendment says that yes, private citizens do have a right to own that kind of weaponry, yes. However, the barrier to owning those things is really money more than regulation. Even if it wasn't, I don't think there is a safe way for private citizens to own the serious hardware that our military uses (tanks, drones, missiles, etc).

But I also don't think the Taliban in Afghanistan had access to many of those things and that wasn't a half-assed resistance.

Adamvasco, I don't understand what your argument is. That Americans have the political will to spend $3.7 trillion on gun control but they wouldn't be willing to spend that on mental health? My assertion is that people are more willing to spend money on upgrading our mental health services than they are on gun control. I agree that we have fucked up priorities and that neither is likely but if we're going to push for one, mental health will have more impact and more success in preventing these kinds of atrocities.
posted by VTX at 9:19 AM on July 20, 2012


//However, "crackhead" is still a racially coded word./

FWIW, the image I get in my head when I hear the word crackhead is a tweaked out white kid.
posted by COD at 9:21 AM on July 20, 2012 [16 favorites]


valkyryn's a lawyer, right? He may be using the fairly rarefied legal standard for incapacitation as opposed to common usage, in which case you'd (pretty much always) have trouble making the claim a person is mentally ill.

Being fit to stand trial is not at all the same thing as not being "crazy." You can be mentally ill and not fall under the insanity defense, let alone rise above the very low bar of being fit to stand trial.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:22 AM on July 20, 2012


not a gun expert or enthusiast. i do own guns for hunting. some clarification :

automatic means that you do not have to manually load every bullet into the firing chamber in order to fire. there are hunting rifles that are not automatic -- you have a clip / magazine that typically holds less than half a dozen bullets, and you have to load each one into the firing chamber with a lever or other mechanism in order to shoot it. there are also hunting rifles that are automatic, where the mechanism within the gun loads the next bullet to be fired. also usually less than 6-round clips, but you can get larger. however -- these types of guns are not fully-automatic, they are semi-automatic.

semi-automatic means that you can shoot bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger until the supply of bullets is exhausted -- one shot for every pull of the trigger. fully-automatic means that you can shoot bullets repeatedly by pressing and holding the trigger. fully-auto weapons are much more difficult to come by, and are typically only used in military settings.

my understanding is that a lot of these types of shootings are being done with compact (read -- non-hunting) rifles, or pistols, with semi-automatic capability and large magazines capable of dispersing large numbers of bullets as fast as the shooter can pull the trigger. these types of weapons will probably never be outlawed, but i believe we should look very closely at outlawing the large-capacity magazines. you don't need them for hunting -- if you need to use more than half-a-dozen rounds to kill an animal, you're doin' it wrong (and i know, 'cause i've done it wrong and seen it done wrong). i've never seen anybody hunt with these AR or AK style weapons anyway...they don't seem practical...but they aren't going away for the enthusiast. but -- let them load them 4 rounds at a time if they love that type of gun so much they feel they need one...there is no reason for high-capacity clips other than to kill / wound a lot of people in a very short period of time.

incredibly shocking and sad...my thoughts are with all involved.
posted by g.i.r. at 9:22 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


He suffers from paranoid schizophrenia.

That diagnosis is, of course, disputed. Even if it were true, he was found competent to stand trial. So yeah, kinda.

But not entirely. I've never been all that comfortable with the idea that the first explanation for any heinous act is that the perpetrator is mentally ill. The vast majority of mentally ill people are harmless, and I see no real evidence for the idea that any significant percentage of the harmful are mentally ill.

We send too many mentally ill people to prison as it is.
posted by valkyryn at 9:23 AM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


There is more than one comment above about automatic weapons (in this incident, banning, etc.).
1. Do we have any information that this person used an automatic weapon in the attack? The most I've seen from a news outlet is "AK-like", which 99.9999% of the time in this country means a semiautomatic AK-type gun. I don't doubt that he could've bought the parts and illegally modified the action to convert it to automatic, but I've not seen a bit of reliable news about that.
2. Automatic weapons are already essentially illegal and impossible to buy in this country for anything but military/LEO use. Acquiring one is a $15 000+ proposition, even for a low-quality eastern European Cold War relic. A high-quality gun can be double that. (In order to be transferable to a new owner, it has to be an old gun made before the ban and thus the supply is very small.) Such a purchase also comes with more than the normal pile of paperwork and oversight. It's been this way since 1986, with the acquisition costs rising steadily every year. Banning them outright makes them no less available to criminals, since it's far cheaper and easier to illegally modify a legal gun to make it automatic.
posted by introp at 9:24 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


A friend's sister murdered their mother before trying to kill herself very late in her medical school career... What happened is she discovered she was going blind, which meant she couldn't be the surgeon she'd spent her entire life preparing to be - and having decided to kill herself, she didn't want to leave her siblings to deal with the mother's abuse alone.


What I'm saying is psychotic breaks can strike high achievers too.


Unless there is more, that is not a psychotic break, that is a very distressed person.
posted by edgeways at 9:24 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


COD: FWIW, the image I get in my head when I hear the word crackhead is a tweaked out white kid.

I read "tweaked out white kid" and the first thing that comes to my mind is "meth lab."

"Crackhead" is definitely racially coded.
posted by tzikeh at 9:24 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Being fit to stand trial is not at all the same thing as not being "crazy." You can be mentally ill and not fall under the insanity defense, let alone rise above the very low bar of being fit to stand trial.

Exactly right. But if valkyryn is bleeding the two together it'd be easy to see how he could conclude (and rightly, I think, within those rarefied parameters) that Ted Kaczynski isn't crazy.
posted by gerryblog at 9:24 AM on July 20, 2012


That diagnosis is, of course, disputed.

...by Ted Kaczynski.

Even if it were true, he was found competent to stand trial.

You know full well - or, you ought to know full well - that that is not the same thing as not being "crazy," unless we are taking this moment to radically redefine that word to only mean "not competent to stand trial."
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Oh, on lack of preview I see he's already said kinda.
posted by gerryblog at 9:25 AM on July 20, 2012


Until the word "urban" stops being used as a euphemism for "black," it'll be a tricky thing to talk about "city crime vs. rural crime" without sounding like you're really saying "black people with guns vs. white people with guns."
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 9:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


For those of us who don't have access to the live coverage, can someone explain why the death toll went down? Were people counted twice?

Just the general confusion and misunderstanding that follows events like this. For example, one of the deceased was counted twice, once as Jessica Ghawi and once as Jessica Redfield, but through her mother, officials learned that she was the same person, with Ghawi being her birth name, which she didn't go by.
posted by lord_wolf at 9:26 AM on July 20, 2012


Updates from listening to the medical press conferences on the 9News feed:
* University: 23 admitted, 7 treated & released, 9 critical
* Aurora: 15 admitted (12 shooting victims, 3 chemical exposure), 8 discharged in good condition, 5 critical
* Children's: 6 admitted, one death (identity withheld). Remaining 5 "range from good to critical"; 2-3 expected to be released later today.

These are basically the same figures from the Reddit timeline, with more discharges.

The Aurora spokeswoman mentioned that once the breaking news coverage began, their center and other medical facilities in the region staffed up to full on their own; off duty and backup personnel came in automatically without having to be asked.
posted by ceribus peribus at 9:26 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


'Crazy' is not a useful word in discussions of mental health.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:26 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


God. My sincere condolences go out to everyone involved. My problems are so small in relation to this, my understanding of why people do the things they do so incomplete. I'll try to be more grateful than I have been in the past.
posted by phaedon at 9:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Another picture of James Holmes

And, as we always have and always will, we look at the picture and wonder what, behind that smile and inside that head, was in the process of going so very, very, very wrong.

I have avoided reading too much directly about this. I can't bear to know about some aspiring young reporter who died, or a little kid in a Batman costume. But those references, along with ColdChef's mention of knowing someone who was hurt, are what bring it home.

I'm flashing back on the time a couple years ago when, on my way home from work, I drove by the site of a fresh murder, a police cloth shielding the scene. Or other streets, other buildings I'm familiar with (post offices, medical centers) where there've been shootings. Or even more directly, when there was a murder-suicide at my workplace three years ago, but overshadowed for me personally only because my father also died that week.

I think of times over the couple years when I've been in a store, or at work (including just two days ago), and found myself worrying about (and sometimes taking action/ precaution) over an unstable looking person.

It's preposterous to say most of us are far removed from gun violence. It's all around us, and we've all been affected by it. And most affect of all, it seems, are the people who are so fearful they feel the need to have multiple weapons in their home, their car or on their person at all times.
posted by NorthernLite at 9:28 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Crackhead
posted by absalom at 9:29 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Do we have any information that this person used an automatic weapon in the attack

As explained above, automatic and semi-automatic are synonymous, despite what the fire-arms enthusiasts tell you. The distinction is simply "semi-automatic" or "fully-automatic" - one shot per trigger pull, or the gun keeps firing until empty for as long as the trigger is pulled.

And this really sends me up the wall - gun-rights advocates deliberately muddying the waters with incorrect technical information.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


They just released info on the types of weapons -- two handguns, one Remington 870 shotgun, and an AR-15. No info if any of them were modified or had extended magazines.
posted by arcolz at 9:32 AM on July 20, 2012


these types of weapons will probably never be outlawed, but i believe we should look very closely at outlawing the large-capacity magazines.

Why not? I mean, maybe I can buy the argument for small calibre things, you need a few tries to nail that rabbit or whatever, but do you ever really need to take more than one shot at a deer? and if you do, haven't you wounded it enough that pulling the bolt isn't going to make a big difference?
posted by jonbro at 9:34 AM on July 20, 2012


Movie critic Roger Ebert, from his review of "Falling Down" (1993): "... [A story] which is actually about a great sadness which turns into madness, and which can afflict anyone who is told, after many years of hard work, that he is unnecessary and irrelevant. ...What is fascinating about the [Michael] Douglas character, as written and played, is the core of sadness in his soul. Yes, by the time we meet him, he has gone over the edge. But there is no exhilaration in his rampage, no release. He seems weary and confused, and in his actions he unconsciously follows scripts that he may have learned from the movies, or on the news, where other frustrated misfits vent their rage on innocent bystanders."

Anomie looks more and more like everyday American life in these hard times.
posted by MonkeyToes at 9:34 AM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


^ I don't understand what your argument is.
Your country can spend $3.7 fucking over everybody else when it could be trying to improve society.
Society could be improved by Better Mental Health Care, and...wait for it... making sure that firearms especially automatic firearms are just a little bit harder to buy than a Cheeseburger especially for deranged fuckwits or 24 year old schoolboys students.
posted by adamvasco at 9:36 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Just the general term "mentally ill" is problematic as well. We, in general, don't go around and say "oh she has a physical illness". We say: He is deaf, she is blind, he has fibromyalgia, she has heart disease... But everyone with mental illness is the same unless we deign to offhandedly decide to define it (oftentimes prior to a real diagnosis being established), and heck they are are crazy or whacked right?

Start a war that kills up to a million of people and you are a leader. Kill your husband because he cheated on you and you are crazy.

McVeigh was not a "crazy", Muslim, black man. But a nice "sane" white christian veteran.
posted by edgeways at 9:36 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


Updated status from Denver medical center:
6 admitted (gunshot wounds & abrasions), 3 treated and released, 3 remaining in hospital in fair condition (ie. no longer critical, still recovering in hospital). They've also taken on a fourth patient who has transferred there from another hospital, who is also in fair condition.
posted by ceribus peribus at 9:38 AM on July 20, 2012


But if valkyryn is bleeding the two together it'd be easy to see how he could conclude (and rightly, I think, within those rarefied parameters) that Ted Kaczynski isn't crazy.

No, that would be the wrong conclusion, especially within those parameters. "Crazy," "mentally ill," and "incompetent to stand trial" are all separate phrases with separate meanings. Those found incompetent to stand trial due to mental illness constitute just a small portion of those who suffer from mental illness. It is exactly wrong, and not even kinda right, to say that someone who is competent to stand trial cannot suffer from mental illness.

This is especially piquant in the case of the Unabomber, as the competency determination was also where he was officially diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


There is no reason gun companies need to make it for use outside of the military. But they do anyway. Because they know people will say they "need it." And god damned if you'll take their right to have that toy.

Well put. The only reason to have a gun like that is either as a toy or a murder weapon. If it's a toy, you don't actually need it. If it's a murder weapon, one might argue that you probably...shouldn't have it.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 9:45 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Just the general term "mentally ill" is problematic as well. We, in general, don't go around and say "oh she has a physical illness". We say: He is deaf, she is blind, he has fibromyalgia, she has heart disease... But everyone with mental illness is the same unless we deign to offhandedly decide to define it (oftentimes prior to a real diagnosis being established), and heck they are are crazy or whacked right?

That, I agree, is a problem.
posted by Artw at 9:47 AM on July 20, 2012


Aurora shooting suspect's family releases statement: Our hearts go out to those who were involved in this tragedy and to the families and friends of those involved. We ask that the media respect our privacy during this difficult time. Our family is cooperating with authorities in both San Diego, California and Aurora, Colorado. We are still trying to process this information and we appreciate that people will respect our privacy.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Yeah, preview.

But this is less my legal background talking than it is my general skepticism of the DSM as a project. And even of just the concept of "mental hygiene" generally.

Don't get me wrong, I've been around psychotics. They're scary. But they tend not to be all that functional. Read Kazcynski's stuff. It's the work of someone who's thought about things way too much without doing any of the requisite reading, and it's wildly wrong in many places, but for all that, it's still cogent. His book is 480 pages, but it isn't mindlessly repetitive or word salad. The schizophrenics with whom I've come in contact couldn't easily come up with something like that. Certainly not with anything like proper grammar throughout.

McVeigh wasn't "crazy." Neither, I suggest, was Kazscynzki. They were evil men who made evil choices. Saying they were "mentally ill" means saying that they had that perfectly titrated degree of mental illness such that they were crazy enough to try something like that but not so crazy that their craziness actually prevented them from being able to pull it off. That's a damn specific level of crazy, and it might not even exist.

Fundamentally, I'm just really uncomfortable with classifying anything and everything we find threatening or disturbing as "mental illness." Smacks a little too much of aesthetic/epistemological/political imperialism to me.

So I don't know anything about this guy but (1) that he seems to have been a medical student, and (2) he obtained a gas mask, used tear gas on a movie theater, and opened fire. None of that, to me, says "mentally ill" in any sense of the word. That opinion is certainly subject to change as the facts come out, but I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he was mentally ill just yet.
posted by valkyryn at 9:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [18 favorites]


I'm on the fence about the death penalty, but this is one of those times when it might be worth applying to those who sold him his weaponry and ammunition, sharing the responsibility and consequences for these crimes, all the way up the chain. The arms dealers' hands are just as bloody, today.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:48 AM on July 20, 2012


Gun control does not equal "taking away all the guns".

Exactly. No more than having rules of the road takes away all the cars.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:48 AM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


Headlines from tomorrow dept: For some reason, latest shooting clear evidence we need more guns not fewer.
posted by 2bucksplus at 9:49 AM on July 20, 2012


This is the first google image for an AR 15....

someone said "toy" right?
posted by edgeways at 9:49 AM on July 20, 2012


Here you go: 13 years ago a Brazilian Medical Student opened fire inside a movie theater, during a screening of Fight Club. Hope this settles the whole "he's a medical student, so he's unlikely to be crazy" argument.

FWIW, media was quick to blame Duke Nukem 3D, which had come out around that time, and featured a scene where you could shoot guns inside a movie theater.
posted by qvantamon at 9:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Exactly. No more than having rules of the road takes away all the cars.

yeah but there are traffic deaths anyway so we should just get rid of all traffic laws
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 9:50 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


jonbro -- what xquzyphyr said. i don't need an AR or whatever to hunt...seems impractical. are they even accurate at long distances ? no idea...my guess is no. anyways i don't need one. i like to hunt our deer season here, which is ultimately about a lot more than just pulling a trigger...so i don't really get the obsession over these types of 'assault' weapons. but people want them, and will scream if they can't get them. fine -- let 'em have them...just make the clips smaller, and outlaw the bigger clips.

i have a 4-round clip for my semi-auto hunting rifle, and can load one into the chamber. two years ago i saw and shot at two deer together...i believe i used 4 or 5 rounds.
posted by g.i.r. at 9:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


FWIW, media was quick to blame Duke Nukem 3D, which had come out around that time, and featured a scene where you could shoot guns inside a movie theater.

Then they're going to have a field day with a link between this and the Dark Knight Returns comic.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:52 AM on July 20, 2012


Then they're going to have a field day with a link between this and the Dark Knight Returns comic.

And completely miss the irony, I'm sure.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 9:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


We need to be clear about Ted K. From Wikipedia's entry on his early life:
He also participated in a multiple-year personality study conducted by Dr. Henry Murray, an expert on stress interviews. Students in Murray's study were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student. Instead they were subjected to a "purposely brutalizing psychological experiment" stress test, which was an extremely stressful, personal, and prolonged psychological attack.
Furthermore, the discarding of the concept of the mental illness because of disagreements with the DSM does a disservice to those who are critical of the DSM in good faith. Some may not agree with categorical assessments, but the community of people who use this disagreement in order to undermine the mental health discipline clearly out of some with some political intentions...similar to climate change denialism.
posted by Hypnotic Chick at 9:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


The man suspected of carrying out the Colorado movie theater shooting, 24-year-old James Holmes from San Diego, was a graduate student in the neuroscience program at the University of Colorado Medical School, a university spokesman told NBC News.
Can we drop the medical student thing now?
posted by zamboni at 9:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


g.i.r -- I am questioning why you need semi-auto at all. "People will scream if they can't get them" seems not enough reason. I guess shooting two deer at the same time is cool. Quite truthfully, my belief that making the only allowed rifles bolt action being something that would help safety in these situations may be misplaced. I am happy to hear if that is the case.
posted by jonbro at 9:58 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Just the general term "mentally ill" is problematic as well. We, in general, don't go around and say "oh she has a physical illness". We say: He is deaf, she is blind, he has fibromyalgia, she has heart disease...

I don't think it's quite that simple. Physical illnesses and mental illnesses are apples and oranges. With physical illness we are capable of pinpointing physical causes. Heart disease has visible damage around the heart...deafness has visible damage/defects around the ear.

For mental illnesses, it's all in the mind, and only the mind's owner knows of the full effect. There are often no physically identifiable differences (maybe defects in the "empathy" region of the brain...but our full knowledge on how the mind works is still in its primitive stage). Mental illness is where you "start," just like physical illness is where start when you're feeling chest pains....it's not until you dig deeper that you find that it's either heartburn, a hernia, or heart trouble. It's not so easy with the mind.

So with that said, it's probably feasible to take that next logical step for this guy in particular and assume that he is also a sociopath, incapable of feeling empathy. He'd break the mold on mass murderers if he wasn't. That's still speculation until it is confirmed. Whether there's an underlying condition that leads to that lack of empathy...we won't know until the court knows...so mental illness, for indiscriminately opening fire on innocent civilians, is a good category for now in my mind.
posted by samsara at 10:01 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


i don't need an AR or whatever to hunt...seems impractical. are they even accurate at long distances ?

An AR 15 is the civilian model of the M-16 which was the standard US Army troop weapon when I was in basic training. I've shot both. The only difference between the two is that the M-16 had a "burst" mode where it would shoot three bullets at a time.

I would consistently hit a pop-up target at 300 yards that was the size of a man's torso. I could inconsistently hit that same target at twice that distance.

This is without a scope. The targets only stay up for a few seconds and you know where they are going to pop up.

I've heard of people making shots much further than that, but I'm not an expert on that kind of shooting.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:06 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Why not? I mean, maybe I can buy the argument for small calibre things, you need a few tries to nail that rabbit or whatever, but do you ever really need to take more than one shot at a deer? and if you do, haven't you wounded it enough that pulling the bolt isn't going to make a big difference?

Anecdotal, but back when I was in my early teens and hunted with my dad in western South Dakota (before I lost my taste for guns and hunting in my 20s), the hunting culture I was exposed to seemed to really value the kind of person who got a deer cleanly with one shot, and indeed you'd meet a few people out on the back roads and trails who made it a point of pride to only take a single bullet with them on a day's hunt.

Now, if you hung around the bars and restaurants in town during deer season after it got dark in the evening, you'd hear a lot more of the other kind of hunter, who fetishized the weapons, the hunting accessories (tons of gore-tex camo, shiny gear, ATVs, all that mall sporting goods store lifestyle stuff) and bagging a a big buck to have taxidermied first and foremost. We tried to avoid them out in the field, because they were typically shitty at hunting, kicking up a ton of noise walking around and didn't pay attention to things like their scent carrying in the wind.

But anyways, even the hunters who valued responsibility, accuracy, all that good stuff, would go to the mat for the rights of the douchebag irresponsible hunters to own bigger and bigger guns, because (broadly speaking) there's something about gun culture in the US that gets people defensive about even the most toothless attempts at gun regulation. That weird reactionary us vs. them thing is what put me on the path to deciding I didn't want anything to do with gun ownership personally. You can't have nuanced opinions around a lot of gun owners, you will have a nice conversation turn into somebody jumping down your throat with their mini manifesto more often than not. You stand a pretty good chance of getting your ass kicked by a group in an otherwise decent bar in many parts of this country if you express something other than full support for NRA talking points. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, and god bless 'em, but I couldn't stand being involved at all.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [21 favorites]


Gun = point loaded gun, move finger just a teensy bit. Over and over again.

But yet, other countries with lots of guns don't have gun violence rates remotely proportional to the US. Norway and Sweden and Switzerland and Canada and Finland and France and Austria "should" all have about one-third the gun violence of the US, but they don't. Not even close.

Man, until you people get this fundamental point, there's no chance for America.

I agree, except about what the point is. Until American society reduces the extent to which it beats down people, breaks down people, sets people against each other, and otherwise creates the mindsets that do this (or more common gun violence), we're going to keep killing each other. With commercially-produced guns, or homemade bomb vests, or home-or-informally-made guns.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:08 AM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


jonbro -- shooting two deer at the same time kept my family fed for many months. i'm not an expert marksman or a regular shooter, so the semi-auto helped me do that.
i'm not an nra member. i'm not a gun enthusiast. i'm not a rabid gun advocate. i hunt for the camaraderie, and to get outdoors...and if i get a deer it's a nice bonus. i've had a lot of 'dry' years -- more dry years than successful ones, in fact. it's not about killing. it's not about pulling the trigger. not for me, anyway.
i know of people who were endangered in the woods by some asshole with a bolt rifle who didn't consider what was beyond his target.
guns are not a black-and white issue, it's very grey...as most things are.
posted by g.i.r. at 10:11 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


(My apologies if my question and point above were inflammatory. In my family / social group / local culture the word "automatic" means something very specific. I didn't realize that other people classified semiautomatic as automatic.)
posted by introp at 10:13 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


http://www.metafilter.com/118085/Shooting-at-Batman-Premiere-outside-Denver#4462532: But yet, other countries with lots of guns don't have gun violence rates remotely proportional to the US. Norway and Sweden and Switzerland and Canada and Finland and France and Austria "should" all have about one-third the gun violence of the US, but they don't. Not even close.

I'm not sure Austria deserves to be on that list, unless you're counting conscripts and reservists who have to keep a weapon at home (no idea whether they do, by the way).

You're absolutely right about there being very little gun violence here, though. There's very little deadly violence of any flavor and a vanishingly minuscule amount of gun violence.
posted by syzygy at 10:13 AM on July 20, 2012


NYT: New York City Police Commissiner Raymond W. Kelly said the suspect in the shootings had red-painted hair that resembled the character “The Joker” from the Batman comics and movies.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:14 AM on July 20, 2012


jason_steakums: I was brought up by a family of responsible gun owners and that's been exactly my experience, too. It seems like more gun owners these days are all about their right to own and brandish guns, but not too especially concerned with the responsibility side of the equation. In fact, many seem to bristle at the suggestion that the right comes with a matching set of responsibilities. It often seems to be more about the identity culture of gun ownership than the reality of a gun as an important and powerful tool.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Has New York City Police Commissiner Raymond W. Kelly ever even SEEN the Joker?
posted by gerryblog at 10:16 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Since when does The Joker have red hair? Also, why does the police commissioner of New York City, NY feel the need to provide details on an event that occurred in Aurora, CO?
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:16 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


NYT: New York City Police Commissiner Raymond W. Kelly said the suspect in the shootings had red-painted hair that resembled the character “The Joker” from the Batman comics and movies.

Cite? Why would the NYC Police commissioner give out info on something that happened in Colorado? Also, the joker has green hair, not red.
posted by arcolz at 10:16 AM on July 20, 2012


Yes, Switzerland does have high gun ownership, and "[it has] rates of family shootings and suicides by firearms that are among the highest in Europe."
posted by NailsTheCat at 10:16 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


We need more gun owners like g.i.r. up here.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:16 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I don't own a gun, but if I wanted to buy a shotgun for practice shooting or hunting, I don't want the government telling me too bad.

....Why WOULD they? What in your background is making you think you would be prevented from owning a gun after you undergo a background check?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I have no idea. I just copy/pasted from the Times. What a bizarre thing to say.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:17 AM on July 20, 2012


Apparently those were two different thoughts, which NYT just chose to mash together.

The suspect's hair was painted red.

He said he was the Joker.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:18 AM on July 20, 2012


NYT: New York City Police Commissiner Raymond W. Kelly said the suspect in the shootings had red-painted hair that resembled the character “The Joker” from the Batman comics and movies.

Raymond Kelly has obviously confused The Joker with Drop Dead Fred.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:20 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


Well the Aurora PD is holding a press conference in about 10 or 15 minutes, so hopefully we'll get some real info instead of rumors and hoaxes.
posted by arcolz at 10:22 AM on July 20, 2012


Why anyone would trust any police commissioner of Gotham not named Gordon is beyond me.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:22 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


There are very specific things that mark different mental illnesses. Depression is not schizophrenia is not sociopathy, is not OCD is not bipolar is not a borderline personality disorder, is not PTSD, is not an eating disorder...

But, fundamentally, what is a "mental illness" if it is not a "physical illness"? There are real and physical changes in the bodies (and the brain is part of the body as well) chemically and structurally. MRIs can often times pinpoint different structural defects in the brains of folks with different mental illnesses. Denying a physical component of mental illness, just trows it back into the realm of possession, inherently evil, beat it out of them and so forth.

Saying, "this person has mental illness obviously because he killed someone", what does one mean? That they have an eating disorder? Probably not. But labeling the same person who suffers, say OCD, with exactly the same words as you label a mass murder is not only inaccurate, but really really damaging to a lot of people. When someone says "crazy, whacked, nutjob, batshit insane..." to include a person who is depressed and who kits them self out and kills a dozen people? Yeah, you know? We can and should do a lot better with out words to reduce the collateral damage and stigmatizing effects they have. Every single day people offhandedly equate Michelle Bachmann and her political wackiness with my relative with an anxiety disorder. I tell you straight up, they are nothing alike.
posted by edgeways at 10:24 AM on July 20, 2012 [15 favorites]


Or they might be confusing The Joker with Ronald McDonald...
posted by samsara at 10:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


He suffers from paranoid schizophrenia.

Apologies for derail, but as Kaczynski himself pointed out during his trial, the legal establishment tasked with determining his "sanity" would have had a strong political interest in pronouncing him "mentally ill" in order to discredit his writings which, viewed separately from his heinous acts, raise serious questions that connect to issues with which we as a society for real have to contend.

A psychiatrist tasked by the court with diagnosing a criminal after a serious and high-profile crime has been committed, especially if the criminal acted to advertise otherwise marginal ideology (whether disgusting like Breivik's or incoherent and wingnutty like Joe Stack's or actually thought-provoking and maybe kind of important, like Kaczynski's), is probably not operating at the same level of objectivity than they would otherwise be, and saying that Kaczynski is schizophrenic is at minimum a highly loaded assertion, because an entire nation had a strong interest in dismissing him as crazy. He may actually just be a terrorist who used evil methods to promote ideas that have to be evaluated separately from their author, and in that context, it's plausible that a schizophrenia diagnosis is just a way of shutting down an uncomfortable discussion.
posted by kengraham at 10:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


I'm not sure Austria deserves to be on that list

The relevant wikipedia page says that the Austria has 30.4 privately-owned small arms per 100 people, compared to 88.8 in the US. That shouldn't include reservists unless reservists have to purchase their own weapons (which isn't so crazy as to be impossible).

Switzerland does have high gun ownership, and "[it has] rates of family shootings and suicides by firearms that are among the highest in Europe."

...and still far lower rates than the US, even scaled down to account for lower gun ownership rates.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I was merely pointing out that cities have a higher rate of drugs and crime, not that we don't have our share of it in the country.

Er, "New evidence indicates not only a convergence of rural and urban usage rates, but also, for certain substances, higher usage rates in rural aras compared to urban areas." (source)

Also, the situation that held from about the 1960s to the 1980s, where U.S. urban areas had far higher crime rates than suburban and rural areas, is now well on its way back to parity. What's more, going back in history further than the 1950s, U.S. cities generally had lower per capita crime rates than rural areas. So the 1960s-1980s in the U.S. is more and more starting to look like a strange and somewhat unexplained divergence from usual crime trends.

In short, we're all in this together and the idea that "I'll just move away from the city and escape all these problems" is less and less true.

Just for example, in my state the rural areas are clear leaders in both the production and consumption of meth . . .
posted by flug at 10:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Brief update from Aurora Medical: their 5 critical patients are still in surgery, but doctors are very positive and they are all expected to recover.

The Denver area blood bank has no shortages but would like the public's help in replacing the supply that was used today, and reminds us that blood is an ongoing need. Their donation clinics are booked solid today and tomorrow, but they're open every day.
posted by ceribus peribus at 10:27 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


ABC News: Colorado shooting suspect to police: I am the Joker
posted by BobbyVan at 10:28 AM on July 20, 2012


Columbine: Whose Fault Is It?

Still relevant today.
posted by Fizz at 10:30 AM on July 20, 2012


> It is generally known here in Maine and most country locales in the U.S.: don't go down a dirt road unless you have a reason to be there. Dogs and guns and people with bear spray may await you.

I'm from a country locale in the US (though not Maine), and I've driven up and down quite a few dirt roads in my lifetime. Shooting at cars is illegal, and they're not edible. I've never worried anyone would shoot me. I've never heard of a problem with people in the country shooting at cars.

This is BS.

(Dogs are different matter, because 'Hey, look, a car! Let's chase it!' but they're not terribly threatening.)

This has no real bearing on gun control. (Despite knowing a lot of hunters, I'm in favor of some restrictions.) I just wanted to clear up some idiotic stereotypes.
posted by nangar at 10:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


From a local (to me in Southern California) paper:

http://www.sbsun.com/breakingnews/ci_21119535?source=rss

UPDATE: University of California Riverside releases statement regarding Colorado Shooting
staff report
Posted: 07/20/2012 10:18:08 AM PDT

The University of California Riverside has released this statement regarding the shooting this morning in Aurora, Colorado:

James Eagan Holmes, date of birth Dec. 13, 1987

The University of California, Riverside can confirm that a person by this name graduated from UCR with a BS in neuroscience in the Spring of 2010.

His last known address was in San Diego.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:32 AM on July 20, 2012


The group that did the most to cause sentiment for gun control to reach its high water mark in my lifetime so far?


The Black Panthers.
posted by jamjam at 10:33 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


More from ABC News...
One law enforcement official told ABC News that the suspect told authorities that "he was the joker," referring to a villian from the Batman series. New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the suspect had dyed his hair red to match the character's.

...

Authorities report that 12 people were killed and nearly 50 were injured. Holmes was arrested in the parking lot of the movie theater, looking like "a villain in a movie," a Congressional official briefed on the situation told ABC News. His apartment is filled with explosives and being searched by Hazmat teams.

Kaitlyn Fonzi, who lives directly below Holmes's Aurora apartment, said that around midnight, she heard very loud music coming from the apartment above her.

The "same techno song that sounded like it included gunshots was playing in a loop for a long time," she said.

Fonzi said the music abruptly stopped at about 1 a.m.
posted by BobbyVan at 10:36 AM on July 20, 2012


Apologies for derail, but as Kaczynski himself pointed out during his trial, the legal establishment tasked with determining his "sanity" would have had a strong political interest in pronouncing him "mentally ill" in order to discredit his writings which, viewed separately from his heinous acts, raise serious questions that connect to issues with which we as a society for real have to contend.

I'm sorry, but the ability to write long rambling screed is not and never will be a sign that someone can't be schizophrenic. Pretty much the opposite, in fact.
posted by Artw at 10:36 AM on July 20, 2012


When jessamyn said 'dirt road' I'm picturing those kinds of unmarked long drives you get in the country. While I would not expect to get shot if I drive up one without an invite, it wouldn't surprise me if my interlocutor at the end of the drive had a gun and an unpleasant manner. When you live forty minutes from the police you tend to dislike strangers showing up in places they are not supposed to be.
posted by winna at 10:36 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well lets see..

the lefties are claiming that the shooter was a member of the tea party
the right wingers are claiming that the shooter was a black bloc member of OWS
there has already been a "profiler" on CNN blaming video games
Clint Van Zant was on MSNBC saying the shooter probably had a "Trekkie" type personality
the anti-gun people are blaming guns
the pro-gun people are blaming the United Nations
the conspiracy nuts are going... nuts (well, they do that every day anyhow)

and I'm certain that all of this is 100% utter bullshit and we won't find out the real story until 5 or 6 months down the road.
posted by smoothvirus at 10:37 AM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


I just finished reading Columbine by Dave Cullen, which was a masterful retelling of what happened that day, what led up to it and what came after. What was so striking is how many falsities and untruths about the massacre became engrained so quickly due to the early chaos of newsreporting and individual speculation. I learned a lesson from that book that when it comes to these sorts of killings, it is best to wait a bit until the facts are clear before speculating. I realize that goes against human nature, but if you are actually interested in the truth of what happened, that is the only way you are going to get it.
posted by Falconetti at 10:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [38 favorites]


thank you, saulgoodman. much appreciated.

i could go on and on about the crappy and / or dangerous methods used in hunting and all that -- baiting, shooting from roads, allowing younger and younger kids to hunt, etc etc etc, and how i and my family are very against all that, but that would be a big derail. suffice to say that although we are gun owners and users, i feel like my family and i are sadly in the minority w/r/t attitudes on all of that stuff, and also the gun worship / fetishisation. i mostly keep my mouth shut about all of it.

but...if someone told me i'd have to give up my semi-auto hunting rifle, which is as long as my leg, i'd have a problem with that.

guns will not go away in the usa. as a hunter i don't believe they should. as a friend of casual enthusiasts / shooters i don't think they should. but there should definitely be limits, and we need to try to have reasonable, rational and factual discussions about types of weapons, ownership, use and responsibility. hard to do with both sides oversimplifying and inflaming things.
posted by g.i.r. at 10:39 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


I just finished reading Columbine by Dave Cullen, which was a masterful retelling of what happened that day, what led up to it and what came after. What was so striking is how many falsities and untruths about the massacre became engrained so quickly due to the early chaos of newsreporting and individual speculation. I learned a lesson from that book that when it comes to these sorts of killings, it is best to wait a bit until the facts are clear before speculating. I realize that goes against human nature, but if you are actually interested in the truth of what happened, that is the only way you are going to get it.

I was thinking about that book when I made my last post. The exact same thing is happening right now, mostly by groups using the hyperbole to further their own agenda.
posted by smoothvirus at 10:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Apologies for derail, but as Kaczynski himself pointed out during his trial, the legal establishment tasked with determining his "sanity" would have had a strong political interest in pronouncing him "mentally ill" in order to discredit his writings which, viewed separately from his heinous acts, raise serious questions that connect to issues with which we as a society for real have to contend.

Perhaps it's just my experience of having actually dealt with paranoid schizophrenics, but where you see a superficially rational argument from Kaczynski, I merely see a garden variety grandiose, paranoid delusion, combined also with the routine blur between the self and the outside world.

I do not buy the argument that the court-appointed psychiatrist diagnosed him with paranoid schizophrenia out of any political interest "in order to discredit his writings". Such an idea assumes that we live in precisely the sort of paranoid universe that Ted Kaczynski must imagine himself to live in - a world where "technological slavery" may be averted through the strategic bombing of certain figures, as well as through the publication of rambling, messianic manifestos, and where such heroes are only described as mentally ill in order to discredit their good work.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


When jessamyn said 'dirt road'

fwiw jessamyn didn't mention 'dirt roads'
posted by edgeways at 10:43 AM on July 20, 2012


That's still speculation until it is confirmed.

So is the "mental illness" part. "Indiscriminately opening fire on innocent civilians" isn't a diagnostic criterion, and you are not a mental health professional.

so mental illness, for indiscriminately opening fire on innocent civilians, is a good category for now in my mind.

Hi. I'm a person with a history of mental illness (anxiety and depression, thanks for asking). Like many (and probably most) people with a history of mental illness, I've never been delusional, or had psychosis, or had trouble empathizing with people, or wanted to shoot or hurt anybody. Mostly, I go through periods where I have a hard time leaving the house, sometimes for days on end, which makes it hard for me to do a lot of normal-ass things, like, say, go to work.

Every time there's a discussion like this, where the term "mental illness" is used in a hand-waivey way ("The person did x. There's clearly something wrong with them, so I'm going to say they're mentally ill." or "Mentally-ill people shouldn't be allowed to y, and should be forced to z."), it makes me cringe. There's enough stigma attached to the idea of being mentally ill already. Maybe you could refrain from lumping all of us in with a mass murderer, to boot?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:43 AM on July 20, 2012 [47 favorites]




the lefties are claiming that the shooter was a member of the tea party

Correction: ABC News and a couple of other MSM outlets reported that the shooter may have been affiliated with the Colorado Tea Party based on evidence no more solid than this link from above (which I guess if you were an idiot you could characterize as "some lefty claiming" something).

Just. Fucking. Stop. It.

At least until the smoke clears, so we can get at least a decent chance of actually learning something from this monstrous tragedy. It's way too hard to reverse mistaken initial impressions after their formed. We know this from scientific results. So let's just hold off on our conclusions for a bit, until we can do something more useful than just muddy the waters.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:45 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Since when does The Joker have red hair?

The nurse scene in the last movie?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:45 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


But everyone with mental illness is the same unless we deign to offhandedly decide to define it (oftentimes prior to a real diagnosis being established), and heck they are are crazy or whacked right?

My mother's best friend is Norwegian (lives in Norway), and she told my mom that when it came to trying the shooter in that country, the courts had trouble coming up with definitions of what type of mental illness he might have. So, they asked the U.S. for help, and we were glad to oblige. The Eskimos have 30 words for snow, and the US has 30 words for mental illness, because we are experts on that subject.

The other night I watched the movie "Sophie's Choice" on TV, where a doctor claimed that Kevin Kline's character was a "paranoid schizophrenic." My immediate thought was "no way josé, he's either bipolar or just underemployed with anger management issues." Back in 1980, there was no need to differentiate between the different illnesses because...it wasn't as much of an issue? Because it wasn't as prevalent? Why are we such experts on mental illness nowadays? Why are we even arguing about gun control when there are so many more important things to address?

On preview: Right on, MonkeyToes--"Falling Down" said a lot when it came out, and nothing has changed.
posted by Melismata at 10:46 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


This is completely terrible. My thoughts go out to all of the victims and their friends and families.

ColdChef, thank you for sharing your story - it illustrates how chilling and scary it must have been to be there, and I hope your friend's daughter recovers quickly.
posted by Fig at 10:49 AM on July 20, 2012


Police discuss theater shooting - news conference now live streaming on cnn.com.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:49 AM on July 20, 2012


Correction: ABC News and a couple of other MSM outlets reported that the shooter may have been affiliated with the Colorado Tea Party based on evidence no more solid than this link from above (which I guess if you were an idiot you could characterize as "some lefty claiming" something).

His or her point was not in particular that leftists said something, but rather that after a chaotic massacre, everyone looks for scapegoats (usually whatever their pet cause is) or falls under the sway of rumor or misinformation. The truth usually does not emerge until after the hysteria and political posturing dies down (and even then, untruths stubbornly persist). The poster was making the same point you are now (which, frankly, is in opposition to your earlier unwarranted and borderline ludicrous specualtions on a connection to Limbaugh).
posted by Falconetti at 10:50 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


ABC News: Colorado shooting suspect to police: I am the Joker

downside of a culture that has way too much invested in the charismatic coolness of its fictional villains? Much as we may wish otherwise, this kind of horror doesn't just happen. There will be a point at which hindsight allows for a very clear picture of how this came to be.


.
posted by philip-random at 10:50 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Saulgoodman - a fair point, but it's not like this exists in isolation, ANC we know as much as we're going to know from the Previous cases and, let's face it, any deviations here will be minor. Probably the most significant thing is the guy didn't off himself and I'd take bets on that being purely for lack of opportunity.
posted by Artw at 10:51 AM on July 20, 2012


Correction: ABC News and a couple of other MSM outlets reported that the shooter may have been affiliated with the Colorado Tea Party based on evidence no more solid than this link from above (which I guess if you were an idiot you could characterize as "some lefty claiming" something)

Well, plenty of idiots think outlets like ABC are "lefties". This is absolutely going to provide fodder for the "liberal media" ranters (IMO, it should provide fodder for "stupid and lazy media" ranters, but I so seldom get what I want).
posted by tealdeer at 10:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


There are very specific things that mark different mental illnesses. Depression is not schizophrenia is not sociopathy, is not OCD is not bipolar is not a borderline personality disorder, is not PTSD, is not an eating disorder...

If you follow psychology over the past several hundred years or so, you'll find that these definitions have always been in flux depending on the school of thought that is popular. The point of attaching these labels is to make it easier to administer the most successful treatment..and we've come a long way from drilling holes into skulls to "fix" mental disorders.

But, fundamentally, what is a "mental illness" if it is not a "physical illness"?

I don't have a dictionary handy, but my best guess is it is a cognitive impairment apart from what is considered normal, just as a physical illness is a physical impairment from what is considered normal. It's a broad classification that can be used to cover many different things..just like the word "people" can be used to describe all sorts of human beings. What kind of person? Adult? Child? Man? Woman? Physical illnesses like Cancer, AIDs, or a common cold all fall under the same broad category.

Saying, "this person has mental illness obviously because he killed someone", what does one mean? That they have an eating disorder? Probably not. But labeling the same person who suffers, say OCD, with exactly the same words as you label a mass murder is not only inaccurate, but really really damaging to a lot of people.

He killed MANY people. I don't know what to really say about this other than I feel that's being overly-sensitive to a broad classification. The term "mental illness" is not the final clinical definition. A mental illness that is later clinically diagnosed as OCD is not the same as one that leads someone to kill, obviously. Just like a person that drives a car isn't necessarily driving while under the influence of alcohol, or naked...until they're pulled over and found to be. Let me ask you a question then....how would you describe the mental condition someone is in to where they would booby trap their apartment, go all the way to a theater with weapons and tear gas, look at patrons in the theater, and slowly and calmly opened fire on them indiscriminately with an assault rifle? To me, that's a dead ringer for a sociopath. If he is not suffering from some form of mental illness or ailment, what would you say in place of that? A bad case of the Fridays? Would that be offensive to everyone else that is having a bad day today? True, this is an assumption...but it's likely the best fitting description until more is discovered.

There are similarities. Just like physical illnesses, some mental illnesses can be treated and cured...some cannot.

I do agree however that the label has a history of being very dismissive and poorly understood. Honestly though....if he is guilty, I could care really less about his state of mind, or what clinical term is used to describe it. To me, there's no excuse, nor mentally sane reason to do what he did...period.
posted by samsara at 10:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'm with ROU. Something is badly wrong with the environment in which Americans live -- multiple somethings, actually -- and there's no useful way to address gun violence until and unless we deal with this directly. The idea that we can legislate our way to a gun-free society won't work any better than the idea that we can legislate our way to a drug-free society; violence and disordered drug use are symptoms, not the disease.

I think about Rat Park almost every day, these days.
posted by vorfeed at 10:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [21 favorites]


McVeigh wasn't "crazy." Neither, I suggest, was Kazscynzki. They were evil men who made evil choices. Saying they were "mentally ill" means saying that they had that perfectly titrated degree of mental illness such that they were crazy enough to try something like that but not so crazy that their craziness actually prevented them from being able to pull it off. That's a damn specific level of crazy, and it might not even exist.

"Crazy" is not a scalar quantity*. Some "crazy"s induce people to try something like that. An overlapping but distinct set of "crazy"s would prevent them from being able to pull it off.

*Your statement hinges on it being scalar. The idea of it being scalar is a preposterous oversimplification that is so obviously worse than the DSM's system of categorization that it's difficult to take the rest of your comment seriously.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:53 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


There will be a point at which hindsight allows for a very clear picture of how this came to be.


you are much more optimistic about American's ability to learn.. or learn the correct lesions from disaster than I am.
posted by edgeways at 10:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Since when does The Joker have red hair?

I have the sneaking suspicion he's conflating The Joker with Ronald McDonald.
posted by workerant at 10:54 AM on July 20, 2012


They can still stab people or make bombs. The use of guns in something like this is a symptom of a different problem. If taking away the guns means that the people who do these things switch to bombs, it might make the problem worse.

True -- they could pick up bombs at any of the five thousand bomb shows a year in the USA.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I have the sneaking suspicion he's conflating The Joker with Ronald McDonald.

Hey, it happens.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Let me ask you a question then....how would you describe the mental condition someone is in to where they would booby trap their apartment, go all the way to a theater with weapons and tear gas, look at patrons in the theater, and slowly and calmly opened fire on them indiscriminately with an assault rifle?

I wouldn't attempt to describe it, precisely because I do not understand it.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


The poster was making the same point you are now (which, frankly, is in opposition to your earlier unwarranted and borderline ludicrous specualtions on a connection to Limbaugh).

You're mischaracterizing my comment, taking it out of context. That remark was specifically addressing a previous remark someone made about how it was impossible to see how any sane person would invest the premier of this film with political meaning, and only because a story about it had happened to pop up in my Google reader feed yesterday, I provided a link to a damn clear example of that claim not being true. I never explicitly or implicitly drew a connection between Limbaugh's stupid nonsense and this tragedy. You're either being dishonest or making a loose association if you think you see me drawing such a connection.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:56 AM on July 20, 2012


CNN has uploaded some 911 recordings and transcripts:
...

01:03:59 316 i need a rescue in here hot, see we got a guy shot. Inside of theater 9? Just outside of theater 9. 01:04:08

01:04:25 team 6 we got another person outside shot in the leg, a female, i got people running outside the theater that are shot in room 9. 01:04:33

01:04:39 318 i got another victim on the north side of this theater the parking lot. 01:04:43

...
(bold mine, wondering if that was ColdChef's Katie)
posted by ceribus peribus at 10:57 AM on July 20, 2012


Geez Saul, you made your point - suggesting the commenter suffers from a psychiatric problem (you even give a link!) is rude and overwrought.
posted by BobbyVan at 10:58 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


You're mischaracterizing my comment, taking it out of context. That remark was specifically addressing a previous remark someone made about how it was impossible to see how any sane person would invest the premier of this film with political meaning, and only because a story about it had happened to pop up in my Google reader feed yesterday, I provided a link to a damn clear example of that claim not being true. I never explicitly or implicitly drew a connection between Limbaugh's stupid nonsense and this tragedy. You're either being dishonest or making a loose association if you think you see me drawing such a connection.

saul, you are right. I went back and read your initial comment and I did mischaracterize it. No need to assert that because I did that I am either dishonest or have a "thought disorder" (the wiki entry your link goes to). Instead, I made a mistake and corrected it when you pointed it out.
posted by Falconetti at 11:01 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Geez Saul, you made your point - suggesting the commenter suffers from a psychiatric problem (you even give a link!) is rude and overwrought.

It's not a psychiatric problem; ordinary people under stress or when tired exhibit disordered thinking patterns all the time. I did it just yesterday in an unrelated thread.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:02 AM on July 20, 2012


Honestly though....if he is guilty, I could care really less about his state of mind, or what clinical term is used to describe it.

People aren't asking you to be sensitive to him, but to the other people involved in this conversation. They're also asking you to not throw around terms that have specific clinical meanings and histories—terms with which they've been labeled, and which have affected their lives—but which you're not even willing to grab a dictionary to define.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:04 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


More info:

Name is James Eagan Holmes
AR-15 assault rifle, Remington shotgun, .40 Glock handgun, other 40cal Glock handgun found in the car.
71 people shot, 12 deceased.
Holmes set off 2 devices, released smoke or some sort of irritant.
Officials are confident he acted alone.
Suspect was wearing ballistic helmet, ballistic leggings, groin protecter, tactical gloves, gasmask.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:04 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


you are much more optimistic about American's ability to learn.. or learn the correct lesions from disaster than I am.

I didn't intend anything about America collectively learning anything positive from this. You can lead a horse to water and all that ...

Not that I don't believe there is some kind of resolution to this kind of violence. I just think it will take a long, long time. That is, this guy didn't just suddenly decide, hey I'm going to kill a bunch of people at Batman tonight. His actions are the end product of a whole lotta pathology, overt and otherwise. Maybe he will eventually be proven to be schizophrenic (or other), maybe he did what he did with clarity. But one thing is sure, his actions were informed by his environment (his culture).

That Rat Park link is well worth exploring.
posted by philip-random at 11:05 AM on July 20, 2012



Slap*Happy:“As explained above, automatic and semi-automatic are synonymous, despite what the fire-arms enthusiasts tell you. The distinction is simply "semi-automatic" or "fully-automatic" - one shot per trigger pull, or the gun keeps firing until empty for as long as the trigger is pulled.

And this really sends me up the wall - gun-rights advocates deliberately muddying the waters with incorrect technical information.”

You really should tell the Pentagon about this, less they persist in their folly of supplying troops with fully automatic weapons.

I’m essentially neutral on gun control and don’t much care one way or the other, but extremists on both ends of the spectrum really send me up the wall. Gun rights guys are ranting about the need for open carry, while fighting tooth and nail against any and all limitations on firearm ownership. Meanwhile, gun control advocates who don’t understand the most basic things about guns make ideal straw men for the NRA.

Both sides are all about emotion. Both generate more heat than light. Neither adds anything of substance to the debate.
posted by Huplescat at 11:05 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


When jessamyn said 'dirt road'

fwiw jessamyn didn't mention 'dirt roads'


Oh no, you're right. That was Marie. Sorry about that.
posted by winna at 11:05 AM on July 20, 2012


Thanks for that, Falconetti. Like I explained before I saw your comment above, I didn't mean to accuse you of having a psychiatric problem! Just to describe the thing that just happened in clear, precise terms. It probably happened because this is a highly charged topic.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:05 AM on July 20, 2012


absalom: ""Crackhead" is a very racially loaded and coded word"

I disagree.
posted by Bonzai at 11:06 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


71 people shot. If that number is true... it is rather sickening. I mean, 71 people! That means, rough guess here, at least one hundred shots fired? How does a civilian even get that sort of firepower? (And how do we continue to allow that?)
posted by andreaazure at 11:06 AM on July 20, 2012


Here's the info given so far at the press conferance:

The suspect was apprehended at the back of the theater 9, they have no count of rounds fired. He surrendered with no injuries to officers.

Several rounds pierced the walls and hit people in the next theater over.

The police are confident that he acted alone.

The weapons used were: An AR-15, a Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun, and two .40cal Glock pistols. The suspect also used what they described as "two smoke producing and irritant devices."

He was wearing a gas mask, as well as a ballistic helmet, a ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, and groin armor.

Current counts of injured are 71 people shot and 12 deceased - 2 at hospital, 10 at the scene.

His apartment is booby trapped with incendiary devices and trip wires, they've evacuated a perimeter and are working on removing the devices.
posted by arcolz at 11:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


//How does a civilian even get that sort of firepower? //

You buy it at WalMart, or Gander Mountain, or any other store that chooses to sell ammunition. Hell, I probably have 100 bullets at home for my handgun. That's what...two boxes at about $30 each?
posted by COD at 11:10 AM on July 20, 2012


Watching the press conference now, too.

"A caution about social media": "We are already seeing pranks". Someone called a 'national media organization' claiming to be the Aurora Chief of Police.

Some discussion about what the DA's office is doing both for the press and for victims and their families. She does recommend counseling for victims and their families, and says that they will make financial resources available if needed.

Some of those reporters were asking some really obnoxious questions. They wanted details that really wasn't going to be released - victim information, things like that.

And there was someone who was, I think, British or Australian, and was going "Is it legal to have assault weapons" a couple of times, especially after the Chief of Police said that they were investigating his weapons.
posted by mephron at 11:15 AM on July 20, 2012


Okay, I have a question - TWICE now in this thread I've seen people say that they would have a problem with "the government" coming to "confiscate their weapons". Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:15 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


If you follow psychology over the past several hundred years or so, you'll find that these definitions have always been in flux...


yes, absolutely, but that is true for just about everything. We don't say someone who is suffering from seizures is possessed by the devil anymore, or that a good level of grime protects you from ill humors. The way we interact and see the world is always changing, it is not only in relation to how we define mental illness that definitions change. But, that doesn't invalidate using what we know now as the point of common understanding. And what we know now, says that these illnesses are specific from one another. that you can't really compare OCD and psychoses, just because they are both mental illnesses, any more then you can compare a broken finger with lung cancer.

I don't have a dictionary handy, but my best guess is it is a cognitive impairment apart from what is considered normal, just as a physical illness is a physical impairment from what is considered normal.

Accepting your definition for the moment, I would counter that a cognitive impairment is not something that happens in a vacuum, three has to be something to cause that impairment, that that something is physical. Where else would it come from? My argument is that just as we don't call someone "physically ill", but we are specific about it, we should also extend the same courtesy to folks with mental illness. Using the same language for extremely rare violent psychoses as for mild depression is just... fundamentally wrong.

The term "mental illness" is not the final clinical definition.

Right, and I don't think it should be the initial starting point in popular culture as well, especially as it is near uniformly used pejoratively to describe horrible acts.


...how would you describe the mental condition someone is in to where they would booby trap their apartment, go all the way to a theater with weapons and tear gas, look at patrons in the theater, and slowly and calmly opened fire on them indiscriminately with an assault rifle?


Don't know yet. But all encompassing words I avoid are "Crazy" and "obviously mentally ill". Is he a sociopath? Maybe, but there are lots and lots of sociopaths who don't go down this path.

According to one story Gavrilo Princip shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand after Princip's girlfriend refused to have sex with him the night before, thereby touching off WWI.

People do very very stupid things, for stupid reasons, some of them are quite sane.
posted by edgeways at 11:17 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?

The same black hole that has informed Mr. Holmes' actions?
posted by philip-random at 11:18 AM on July 20, 2012


Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?

Maybe from all those bumper stickers about "prying my gun from my cold dead hands."
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 11:19 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


> Neither adds anything of substance to the debate.

It's not a debate, it's identity politics. Guns are a shibboleth and a proxy to fight over.
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 11:20 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


People aren't asking you to be sensitive to him, but to the other people involved in this conversation. They're also asking you to not throw around terms that have specific clinical meanings and histories—terms with which they've been labeled, and which have affected their lives—but which you're not even willing to grab a dictionary to define.

That wasn't my intent. And I apologize if adding my personal opinion at the end upset anyone. Here's online definitions I've found in case they go against my interpretation:

mental illness
n.
"Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive, emotional, or behavioral functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors, such as infection or head trauma. Also called emotional illness, mental disease, mental disorder." --American Heritage

"(Medicine / Pathology) any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behaviour are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people" --Collins

I don't think I was "throwing around" any specific clinical terms. Rather I was pointing out that it is a broad definition that sets the context for many clinically diagnosed ailments within. Here you have two different dictionary terms that describe the illness in two different ways...that shows how non-specific it is (and I think I'm really ultimately making the same point as you, just in a different way). I don't feel that anyone that has been diagnosed with a mental illness should feel that theirs is even remotely related to any other. Again, mental illness is NOT the diagnoses...but the broad classification.
posted by samsara at 11:21 AM on July 20, 2012


Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?

Well, you have at least one instance of a Senator (Feinstein) saying "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."

It's not like total confiscation never comes up.
posted by timfinnie at 11:23 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?

From some people I know who have this feeling, the idea is that gun control means banning weapons. And despite the fact the Constitution bans ex post facto laws, expecting that banning the weapons would mean that they would be retroactively illegal to own, so they could then be confiscated as illegal, the same way drugs would be. And, in the eyes of some of these people, it would involve a nya-ha-ha and the twisting of a moustache in the Snidely Whiplash manner.

(I do not believe this is all of these people, but this is a mindset I have encountered. Most of my gun-owning friends have a belief that 'real gun control' involves registration of the gun, a shooting and gun maintenance course, regular recertifications, in-home controls to minimize risk of theft or accident, and a duty to report a gun if it is stolen.)
posted by mephron at 11:25 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I guess I meant "How does a civilian get the means to shoot this many people without someone else interfering?" I don't mean "someone else shooting him." It appears as if the shooter tear gas bombed the theater, an ideal enclosed place I'd suppose, and had no problem reloading and/or going to a second or third or fourth weapon.

I don't understand why civilians need to own multiple weapons. I don't understand why automatic weapons are legal for civilians. I don't understand how tear gas grenades are ever in civilian hands. I'm not looking to remove hunting, and I'm not looking to remove people's ability "to defend their home." But.... I just don't understand this.

And it terrifies me to encounter things that I don't understand and that I cannot see any likely path to find that understanding. As far as I can tell, the only way I could understand what drives someone to own this much firepower and then use it would be to go rather crazy. Not interested... just very sad.
posted by andreaazure at 11:26 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Timfinnie, I'm gonna have to ask for a cite, as I'm gonna need to see the context in that (I suspect it'll be a LITTLE different from what is implied).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:26 AM on July 20, 2012


Oh my god, those poor people. I love geeky midnight premieres, and on top of the actual horrible tragedy, the thought of something so fun and exciting for all the people there as fans (who could be me, WOULD be me if I lived in Colorado) being so catastrophically destroyed is just devastating.

And it's sad in a different way--a far lesser, pettier way, I emphatically stress, because it's nothing against the fact that people got hurt and DIED. But it still breaks my heart because more than any other comic book superhero, Batman is the one who Does. Not. Use. Guns. Jesus fucking Christ, the comic origin story is about his parents being shot on the way home from the movies, with Batman's heroic goal being preventing that from happening to anyone else ever again. If the murderer was going for irony, I hope he spends a million bonus years burning in hell.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:26 AM on July 20, 2012 [24 favorites]


//Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?//

I know people that really did stock up on ammo prior to the 2008 election. They were convinced that Obama's first move as President would be to go door to door confiscating guns and ammo. These people are college educated, and one case a 20 year member of the Military Reserves. The reservist is also a full time state employee. How exactly he squares hating govt with collecting 2 paychecks from the government is something I never did figure out. I finally cut him out of my life because I just couldn't take the paranoid, racist rants on Facebook anymore.
posted by COD at 11:28 AM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


EmpressCallipygos: It looks like that was said about 20 years ago in regards to "semi-automatic firearms and restrict the sale of firearm magazines deemed assault weapons."
posted by edgeways at 11:29 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I guess I meant "How does a civilian get the means to shoot this many people without someone else interfering?"

Well, you have to understand the sheer chaos of the environment. In the middle of an action movie, in a darkened and full theatre, full of tear gas, with a lot of people in costume and basically fleeing in every direction. It would be hard enough to figure out where shots were being fired from, let alone identify the gunman and close in on him. Everyone in that environment is pretty close to blind and deaf.
posted by mek at 11:30 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Automatic weapons are generally not legal for civilians, unless they get a sign-off from their local chief law enforcement officer, or have a Class III federal firearms license. New automatic weapons have not been available to anyone other than firearms dealers since 1986.

I would bet $100 that if the Aurora shooter did have an automatic AR15 it was an illegal conversion of a legal semi-automatic rifle.
posted by wuwei at 11:30 AM on July 20, 2012


Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?

The NRA, I think.

And edgeways, thanks for diving in here. You're saying a lot of things I don't have the right words for.

It's god-awful to hear this, oh, he's mentally ill, kicked around so casually - and is it any wonder that we hide these problems, when talk like this is so common? The last damn thing we want is to get depression or anxiety conflated with "has problems refraining from opening fire in a movie theater."

The guy's hell of fucked up, I'll grant that. But it kinda hurts, from the "trying real hard to live with slightly off-kilter brain chemistry" side of things, to see all these words we have to live with being thrown at the wall to see if any of them stick.
posted by cmyk at 11:31 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


It's not a debate, it's identity politics. Guns are a shibboleth and a proxy to fight over.

I'm genuinely puzzled as to how someone can say that given the subject of this comment thread.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 11:31 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


And despite the fact the Constitution bans ex post facto laws, expecting that banning the weapons would mean that they would be retroactively illegal to own, so they could then be confiscated as illegal, the same way drugs would be.

Derail of a derail: making all guns illegal to possess, even if they had earlier been legal to acquire, would not be an ex post facto law. After all, the crime would be in the present possession of an illegal object.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:31 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Maybe it's presumptuous to try to figure out what was going on in this guy's head, but I can't resist trying, as a way of coping. This guy was armed and armored, his home was booby trapped, he surrendered to police without a struggle or firefight. This was a premeditated multi-step plan to murder as many people as possible. But this wasn't suicide-by-cop or a revenge killing or assassination like so many other mass murders. He meant to come out of this situation alive. Did he think he would escape or did he want to be caught so he could use the courtroom as a pulpit, like Breivik?
posted by arcolz at 11:32 AM on July 20, 2012


My heart goes out to everyone in this situation.
I'll nth Carole Anne's suggestion. Everyone please donate blood if you are eligible.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 11:33 AM on July 20, 2012


Did he think he would escape or did he want to be caught so he could use the courtroom as a pulpit, like Breivik?

I'm thinking Herostratus, myself.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:33 AM on July 20, 2012


Fuck, this is horrifying.

.
posted by homunculus at 11:39 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I've heard a lot of others weigh in on my question - g.i.r., you seem to have been one of the ones who expressed a fear that your gun would be confiscated ("but...if someone told me i'd have to give up my semi-auto hunting rifle, which is as long as my leg, i'd have a problem with that"), so would YOU mind weighing in on that question? Thanks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:40 AM on July 20, 2012


Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?

A culture that values ill-considered imprecision, emotionally-loaded bombastic wingnuttery, and the paranoid construction of outlandish strawmen for the profitable lulz, and then disingenuously frames the whole mess as the noble result of our collective belief in free speech?
posted by kengraham at 11:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it.

These days the US government seems barely able to keep the Post Office in business and the IRS fully staffed. The notion that the NRA is the only thing keeping the Feds from marching into every house and confiscating Grandad's rifle strains credulity, to say the least.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:42 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Somebody upthread connected the suspect to a neuroscience major at UC Riverside with the December 13th birthday...I can't seem to find it now, but the Reddit thread confirmed that this UC Riverside guy is not the suspect. Just another guy with the same name, same birthday, same major.
posted by iamkimiam at 11:42 AM on July 20, 2012




I talked that way, EmpressCallipygos, but only in negative; I don't really see how gun control legislation could be effective at this point short of door-to-door searches. There's just too many guns loose in the country.

The horse has left the barn, the genie is out of the bottle, etc, etc.
posted by gerryblog at 11:44 AM on July 20, 2012


evidenceofabsence: There's enough stigma attached to the idea of being mentally ill already. Maybe you could refrain from lumping all of us in with a mass murderer, to boot?

I see this from a different angle. It's my opinion that everyone will suffer from a mental illness at some point in their lives. At the same time, it's my opinion that anyone who commits such an act as this one has to have been suffering from a mental illness at the time. I agree with you that mental illness is wrongfully stigmatized, but I'm not sure that denying what seems to be a case of mental illness because it's particularly horrible is productive.

samsara: Physical illnesses and mental illnesses are apples and oranges.
They are apples and apples, and must be unless you're a dualist who's arguing that we're made of more than meat, and that 'mental illness' is just a euphemism for 'spiritual illness' or 'soul illness', whereby the spirit or soul is some ethereal object separate from the meat that makes up our bodies (and brains).


edgeways: People do very very stupid things, for stupid reasons, some of them are quite sane.
I disagree. People don't do very stupid things on purpose unless there's a mental illness. I mean, it makes no sense. What sane person chooses to do a stupid thing? How is shooting Archduke Ferdinand because your girlfriend refused to have sex with you the night before an example of a person doing something stupid but sane? That seems the very definition of insanity to me.

The way I see it - if you purposefully choose to do something stupid, there's a mental disconnect or else a lack of information, such that you don't know what you're about to do is stupid. Leaving the second possibility out... You're not thinking straight. You're imagining that this stupid thing is actually a good thing. You're delusional. You're not sane. Otherwise, you wouldn't choose to do a stupid thing.
posted by syzygy at 11:44 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]




The gun control argument is an important safety valve when things like this happen. It gives people on both sides a chance to construct a narrative in which the event didn't occur, that either more guns or fewer guns would have changed the fact that someone set out to kill a bunch of their neighbors.

The unfortunate fact is that if someone reaches that point they have plenty of means at their disposal. If they're the patient type they can bludgeon or strangle individual people. Or they can just blow up an elementary school. Or run down pedestrians in their car.

It's unnerving to realize that we have no real defense against the whims of our neighbors' sanity, but there it is.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:45 AM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


I don't really see how gun control legislation could be effective at this point short of door-to-door searches.

It's a long term policy change; it wouldn't have much statistical impact on the next five or so years. You'd encourage spare guns to be turned in under some program, and restrict sales, and wait for the long-term effects. But it would absolutely prevent incidents like Virginia Tech and this, where a young person obtains large quantities of weapons in a short period of time.
posted by mek at 11:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


for those that did not click the link above here is how it goes:
The age of new media being now well-established, it goes a little something like this:

First we get the shaky camera phone videos and the tweets. Then the distraught eyewitness interviews and 911 call recording. Quickly, the shooter is identified. Politicians issue statements of shock and sorrow. The shooter's parents, if interviewed, are confused and abashed or else hide. The social media forensics begin. People with the same or a similar name as the shooter are harassed. There is speculation he is part of a right-wing group, or an Islamic terrorist, or a former Army veteran. The FBI and the armed forces check their records and issue denials or confirmations. Calls for better gun control efforts are issued once again. Defenders of the Second Amendment fight back immediately, or even pre-emptively. The victims of the shooting are blamed in social media for being where they were attacked. More eye-witness interviews. The shooter's parents are castigated. Survivors speak. Warning signs are identified as the alleged shooter's past is plumbed. We ask if violent movies are to blame for his actions. Or cuts to mental-health services. And talk about what kind of country we are, if we have culture of violence. The death toll fluctuates. International voices from countries where guns are heavily regulated shake their heads at us. People leave piles of flowers and teddy bears at the shooting site. There are candlelight vigils, and teary memorials. Everyone calls for national unity and a moment of togetherness. Eventually, the traumatized community holds a big healing ceremony. It is moving, and terribly sad, and watched by millions on TV or online. A few activists continue to make speeches. The shooter, if still alive, rapidly is brought to trial. There is another wave of public discussion about our failures, and the nature of evil. Politicians make feints at gun-law changes, which fail. And then everyone forgets and moves on. Everyone, that is, except the survivors.
posted by robbyrobs at 11:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [50 favorites]


UCR already confirmed that they are the same guy.

Yeah, that's not what your link says. It may be true, but your link doesn't confirm that.
posted by dobbs at 11:47 AM on July 20, 2012


will these injured people face medical bills now? Or is there some kind of exception for such horrifying circumstances?

I'm not at all surprised to hear he was a Medical student, I deal with Surgical trainees and up to their surgical training many of them have never experienced failure in any sense. The way things are organised in the UK you have to basically excel since kindergarten before you get into Med School, any failure after that poinbt is catastrophic to the individual. The number of trainees who don't get through their first year of surgical training and then become extremley depressed due to the fact that they have never failed at anything in their lives is very high. I shudder to think what even one of those people would do with a gun.

my heart goes out to the families, and to the shooter's family. Their lives will never be the same
posted by Wilder at 11:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Has anyone heard from witnesses about why or how the shooting stopped?
posted by wensink at 11:51 AM on July 20, 2012


will these injured people face medical bills now? Or is there some kind of exception for such horrifying circumstances?

I'm pretty sure that most of the people who got sick as a result of 9/11 had huge medical bills. Not that people can't set up funds to help people, but I'm pretty sure the bills will go out.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Yeah, that's not what your link says. It may be true, but your link doesn't confirm that.

Same name and date of birth. Statistically that's good enough for me.
posted by BobbyVan at 11:51 AM on July 20, 2012


will these injured people face medical bills now? Or is there some kind of exception for such horrifying circumstances?

are you serious???
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:51 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Tell Me No Lies: If they're the patient type they can bludgeon or strangle individual people. Or they can just blow up an elementary school. Or run down pedestrians in their car

Guns don't kill people... People kill people, AmIRight?

Strangely enough, it seems that people usually turn to guns when they want to kill people, but that's certainly not the fault of the poor, maligned, innocent guns now, is it?
posted by syzygy at 11:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


First, this is a horrible thing to have happened and my heart breaks for all involved.

Second, my husband and I own guns but we rarely hunt, and, to be completely honest, I'm not expressly concerned about home defense. Three of the guns I own are family heirlooms, two are for target shooting, one would be for hunting if we ever went, one my husband built because he always wanted to do that, and one was a wedding present. We do have a two AR-type rifles that are semi-automatic and both of these are for target shooting and fun. It's a hobby, like many other things and as a hobby we get a great deal of satisfaction out of them.

I do not support the NRA and I feel that their message is one based on fear and intimidation. Personally, I feel that one of the biggest issues involving guns in this country is the multitude of differences between the state laws and the ease of which any dumbass can get a conceal/carry permit. I have no issue with background checks, registration of guns, and even limitations on magazine size and restrictions against full-auto. While I have shot a fully automatic rifle, and it was very, very fun, I see no need for me to own one.

This tragedy is like many have said, a symptom of a deeper problem and the gun culture in this country has allowed it to be expressed this way. I honestly don't know what could realistically be done to change this, other than to require drivers' license like testing for gun ownership, and much, much more intensive training for everyone, whether they intend to ever hold a gun or not.

This is all very problematic for me because while I grew up with guns, I really, really don't think everyone needs to have one. The home protection people are far more likely to get hurt or hurt someone else using their guns than I feel is acceptable. I don't know. This is a subject that is way, way more complex than I can easily get my head around in one little comment box.
posted by teleri025 at 11:52 AM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?

My knee-jerk reaction answer is the NRA, but I have no cite. However, I suspect the notion that the US government could and would confiscate x from its citizens comes from a) current drug laws, which (unlike Prohibition)) forbid ownership of the contraband (Prohibition forbade the transport and sale of alcohol, not ownership or consumption); and b) the Gold recall of 1933 which made ownership of gold coins and bullion illegal in the US until 1974.
posted by Rash at 11:52 AM on July 20, 2012


In that person's defense, I think they're British, quonsar II.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:53 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


quonsar 11, yeah, I asked it as a serious question.
posted by Wilder at 11:53 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


The unfortunate fact is that if someone reaches that point they have plenty of means at their disposal.

Most of which leave less people dead for more effort and with more opportunities for prevention.

Guns are a factor.
posted by Artw at 11:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


if you purposefully choose to do something stupid, there's a mental disconnect or else a lack of information, such that you don't know what you're about to do is stupid. Leaving the second possibility out... You're not thinking straight. You're imagining that this stupid thing is actually a good thing. You're delusional. You're not sane. Otherwise, you wouldn't choose to do a stupid thing.

So, er, are you are saying that from moment to moment any given person is uncategorizably mentally ill? 3 girls where just pulled from Lake Superior (alive) this week because they went swimming without pfds, in huge waves, in high rip tide conditions. Pretty stupid. Mentally ill?

Seriously if you assert that choosing to do something stupid qualifies you as mentally ill, I sort of find that a little silly.
posted by edgeways at 11:54 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


IRISH!!!!Ouch
(but living in the UK. Both countries have free medical care so I can't imagine the years of trauma if their injuries are complicated?
posted by Wilder at 11:55 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Same name and date of birth. Statistically that's good enough for me.

That's the kind of thinking that got my brother stopped as a potential drug-runner on his way home from Jamaica one time. No, he wasn't a drug-runner, but a guy with his same name and date of birth was.
posted by tealdeer at 11:55 AM on July 20, 2012


In that person's defense, I think they're British, quonsar II.

After reading the last few Obamacare threads, I'm no longer surprised that people outside this country are shocked when they find out what our health care system is like.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:55 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


"We can't stop people from committing murder" doesn't seem like a great reason to not do everything we can to make it more difficult for people to commit murder.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 11:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Don't worry, I'm sure all those young moviegoers were fully insured... /sigh
posted by mek at 11:56 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


But it would absolutely prevent incidents like Virginia Tech and this, where a young person obtains large quantities of weapons in a short period of time.

I'm less confident of that, but would love to be convinced otherwise. We don't know how this shooter obtained his weapons yet, but we do have the timeline for the Virginia Tech massacre and it's pretty clear that shooter was pretty determined to amass an arsenal and patient enough to do it however he had to. Making it harder for people to easily obtain weapons would be a good thing I'd be very in favor of, but I don't know that Cho could have been stopped given the number of weapons that are floating around in the US. It just would have taken him a bit longer, with more opportunities to catch him along the way, but he still could have done it just by visiting pawnshops and private dealers.

More importantly, most gun violence just isn't of this sort, and I'm not sure tackling the sales end alone would do enough to stop that kind of violence. But then I just don't think private citizens should have handguns at all.

will these injured people face medical bills now? Or is there some kind of exception for such horrifying circumstances?

This is America. Of course they'll have to pay.
posted by gerryblog at 11:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


will these injured people face medical bills now? Or is there some kind of exception for such horrifying circumstances?

As an ignorant Brit, surely there is some free healthcare provision for calamities like this?
posted by brilliantmistake at 11:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Guns are a factor.

guns don't kill people. people armed with guns kill people.
posted by philip-random at 11:57 AM on July 20, 2012


Wilder: yes, they'll still be charged for whatever medical treatment they've been given. I can back up what roomthreeseventeen said about people affected by 9/11 being charged for their medical bills (in fact, a year ago there was much furor in Congress because a number of Senators wanted to reject a grant which would have helped some of the firemen affected in the attacks defray these bills); so if the people involved in 9/11 can't get free medical care, then it's doubtful that the people in Aurora, Colorado would.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


As an ignorant Brit, surely there is some free healthcare provision for calamities like this?

Heh. Bless your heart.
posted by gaspode at 11:57 AM on July 20, 2012 [34 favorites]


As an ignorant Brit, surely there is some free healthcare provision for calamities like this?

No. There will almost definitely be funds set up to help people out, though.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:58 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


As an ignorant Brit, surely there is some free healthcare provision for calamities like this?

hahaha.... ohhh that's not how the mythical free market works dontchelnow?
posted by edgeways at 11:59 AM on July 20, 2012


As an ignorant Brit, surely there is some free healthcare provision for calamities like this?

Nope.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:59 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


And I bet Warner Brothers and some of the actors will make donations.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:00 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


I'm also kind of wondering where "well-regulated militia" = "ability to fight an armed insurrection against the government" comes from.
posted by kyrademon at 12:00 PM on July 20, 2012


Just considering ColdChef's friend's daughter Katie, a gunshot to the knee can mean months if not years of care, potentially multiple surgeries...it's truly horrifying to think on top of this awful horror people might be seriously endebted.
posted by Wilder at 12:00 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


As an ignorant Brit, surely there is some free healthcare provision for calamities like this?

In America we take personal responsibility for our own gunshot wounds. Commie.
posted by moammargaret at 12:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [45 favorites]


As an ignorant Brit, surely there is some free healthcare provision for calamities like this?

What are you, a COMMUNIST?
posted by infinitywaltz at 12:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm also kind of wondering where "well-regulated militia" = "ability to fight an armed insurrection against the government" comes from.

Well, Revolutionary militias, surely. It's a ridiculous fantasy, needless to say, but historically that's where it comes from.
posted by gerryblog at 12:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure that denying what seems to be a case of mental illness

"Mental illness" is at once so ambiguous as to be meaningless—what does describing him as "mentally ill" achieve?—and so encompassing as to include a bunch of people who, by all rights, don't deserve to be placed into the same category as the shooter.

We can't label Holmes with a specific diagnosis, because we aren't mental health professionals who have had the opportunity to assess him. While I understand the impulse to try to understand why someone would do something like this, the fact is, we aren't going to know why Holmes did it until someone asks him, and tells us. Meanwhile, pronouncements about mental health that are based on opinion and conjecture don't add anything to the discussion, and serve to alienate people.

And for what it's worth, defining mentally ill as "someone who would do something stupid" is a pretty perfect example of begging the question.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]



will these injured people face medical bills now? Or is there some kind of exception for such horrifying circumstances?


um, usually no. the victims will be billed. there may be a protracted legal fight to make the theater pay for care as the gunman allegedly entered a door that was supposed to be locked.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 12:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


We can still call him and asshole and a coward though, right?
posted by cjorgensen at 12:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


But Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution states that the purpose of the militia is to "execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions".

That doesn't seem unclear.
posted by kyrademon at 12:06 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


We can still call him and asshole and a coward though, right?
Go for it.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:06 PM on July 20, 2012


I wonder if it ever occurs to conservative NRA supporters that their position on gun ownership contributes to a massive drain on public resources from health care and law enforcement costs resulting from gun-related crimes. As a taxpayer, I'm pretty pissed off that my tax dollars are being spent for things that would happen far less often if we had reasonable gun regulation.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 12:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


That doesn't seem unclear.

Welcome to Constitutional Law!
posted by Atreides at 12:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


The same free-market-or-die attitude that made sure he had access to his weapons also ensures that there is no free healthcare for the people wounded in the attack. Health and death are things you buy and sell.
posted by pracowity at 12:08 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


We can't label Holmes with a specific diagnosis, because we aren't mental health professionals who have had the opportunity to assess him. While I understand the impulse to try to understand why someone would do something like this, the fact is, we aren't going to know why Holmes did it until someone asks him, and tells us.

Oh god. He'll tell us about his OVERIDINGLY IMPORTANT THING that he's so angry about he has to go out and SHOW THE WORLD. whatever the fuck that thing is will be entirely arbitrary and of next to no importance to what's gone on here, but dipshits and the media will pretend it is because it's graspable and gives them something to rub their mouths about.

Whatever his stupid justification is, it's entirely disconnected from his actions. Same as the last several dozen assholes with manifestos.
posted by Artw at 12:10 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


The phrase "banality of evil" comes to mind, although it was coined for a different kind of killing:
Maintenance worker Jose Torres, 45, said he remembered Holmes as a quiet person who kept mostly to himself.
Colorado shooting suspect studied neuroscience at UC Riverside
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:12 PM on July 20, 2012


It's almost too bad this wasn't terrorism. At least then we might have considered taking some kind of preventative measures.

But when it's one of our own, we as a nation long ago decided that we don't have the political will to try and do anything to stop mass-murder gun violence like this.

I just wish our political leaders would at least just speak truth to the political reality: this is a perfectly acceptable level of death and violence. A few prayers and a practiced pouty face is as much of a concession as the NRA/gun lobby money will allow politicians to make.

You can bet there are even some gun lobbyists that think Obama caved to the gun control lobby for lowering the flags at half-mast.

What a politically and culturally dysfunctional nation we are. You can stop your hand-wringing, no one that matters cares.
posted by Davenhill at 12:14 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


NBC news is reporting that the ATF has confirmed all four firearms were legally bought from retail stores between May and June.
posted by arcolz at 12:15 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


>It's unnerving to realize that we have no real defense against the whims of our neighbors' sanity, but there it is.

Next time you are on a two lane road and going 65, and the guy coming the other direction is going 65, and they whiz past you -- or really anytime you are in a car in traffic -- just try not to think about this, ok?
posted by Catblack at 12:15 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


I give up. Me and my mental illnesses are going to go do something else for a while.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's almost too bad this wasn't terrorism. At least then we might have considered taking some kind of preventative measures.

Although, given our mostly stupid anti-terrorism measures, I'm not sure we're missing out on that much.
posted by tealdeer at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Next time you are on a two lane road and going 65, and the guy coming the other direction is going 65, and they whiz past you -- or really anytime you are in a car in traffic -- just try not to think about this, ok?

Can I confess something? I tell you this as an artist, I think you'll understand.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


. . . . . . . . . . . .

A couple of days ago, I was thinking about how and why the DC universe in general, and Batman in particular, is so off-putting to me anymore. I was playing the demo of DC Universe Online, and there's a massive opening animation sequence, all the good guys and bad guys slamming each other around for 15 minutes, and it's all good comic book fun, and then the Joker says something along the lines of, "Come on, let's go - we've got more murdering to do!" And that word - murdering - just struck a tone that felt so non-comic-book, so real-world, that it soured the whole thing for me.

I felt the same way watching both of the first two Nolan Batman films. For me, they were miserable, unpleasant experiences to sit through - they were focused on the kinds of things that actual villains and terrorists do. Come down from Asgard to steal some magical artifact or whatever? That's fun. Blow up a boat filled with mothers and fathers and children? Point a gun at the head of a child? That's not fun. That's the kind of shit that people sometimes actually do.

I remember having that feeling for the first time with the Frank Miller book, which I read as a teenager. I knew it was revolutionary as comics/graphic novels/sequential art/whatever goes, but it wasn't any fun, and up to that point I had equated comic books with fun. But everything is all Dark now. Batman in particular.

This thing, this thing is breaking my heart in ways I haven't had it broken before, because of the kids involved, and I've got little kids and I see everything through that lens. Imagine that you're 10 or 11, and your mom and dad are not only going to let you stay up and go out for a midnight movie, but you're going to get dressed up like a superhero and see this amazing movie (one that you probably shouldn't be seeing anyway because it's too grownup, but mom and dad are awesome and they're bending the rules because of how special this is) and this is the EVENT OF THE SUMMER for you and you've been counting down the days to it for weeks. And then this happens, and the best thing in the world becomes the worst thing in the world. What does that do to a kid? In some other configuration, with other specifics and details and taking place fifteen years prior, it turns a happy kid into an angry and lonely kid, and angry and lonely kids sometimes grow up and do awful things.

Guns aren't the issue. Well-balanced folks have a variety of guns for a variety of reasons. I don't own any, but that's just because I don't like them. But my neighbor does; he's a Vietnam veteran who would never lift a finger against anyone that wasn't actively trying to hurt him. If you want to hurt 10-year-old kids and their parents during movie night, you'll find a way, and the gun isn't the issue. The issue is, why do you want to hurt people you don't know? What does that do for you? What is the net benefit for you, to hurt people you don't know?

For me, I have to believe that it is rooted in childhood, in those first few experiences of what the world is and what we can expect from it. All of the monsters that the human race has so far produced have operated under the delusion that they were wronged, that something is broken or unjust or unfair and must be fixed by WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY, that you have to break some eggs to make an omelette. Whatever. Fuck those people.

If you have young people in your care or sphere of influence, please do all you can do to let them know that they are loved, they are important, they are good and valuable the way they are, and, crucially, so are other people, every one of them.
posted by jbickers at 12:20 PM on July 20, 2012 [47 favorites]


I guess I'll jump into this fray.

1) I have no problem with anyone rational and responsible owning a gun.
2) I question the rationality and responsibility of anyone who suggests:
a) Having more guns in dark theaters would make us safer.
b) The second amendment was written to allow the citizens to overthrow the government. (Umm... voting was put into effect to allow citizens to overthrow the government. That was supposed to be the difference between our great Democratic experiment and (for example) the English civil war of the 17th century.)
c) The second amendment was put in there to say every type of arm that can be carried gets a freebie pass. Technology is going to allow scarier and scarier items for which the rights of the group outweigh the rights of the individual. Who decides where to draw the line? We do. (back to that thing about voting).
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:21 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


quonsar 11, yeah, I asked it as a serious question.

my bad. USian assumption.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:21 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


empresscallipygos -- that's a pretty big 'if' i used there. i'm not that paranoid. just saying that as a responsible owner of a hunting rifle, which is quite large (and therefore difficult to conceal) and which can only shoot less than 6 bullets at a time, therefore being nothing like the AR-15 used in this killing...if -- IF -- someone told me that my gun was the type of gun the gov't would or should deem illegal, i'd kinda have a problem with that, and so would a lot of other hunters, because that would be a pretty big overreach. i don't see that ever happening...but 1) anti-gun people making oversimplifications or incorrect statements with the words 'automatic' and 'rifle' kinda irks me, and 2) it makes more paranoid gun owners nervous.

to me, 'gun control' should mean rules and regulations regarding guns that are used for hunting and / or recreation, for reasons of safety. it might mean restriction or outlawing of guns or accessories that are highly dangerous or used for no other purpose other than military purposes, or for mass killing. to some lefties the term means 'DO AWAY WITH GUNS GRAR', and to some lefties it means the same thing i think it means (and i am a lefty / progressive, fwiw). same for righties. some people -- regardless of side -- think rationally on these issues, some do not...usually due to external influence. there's fearmongering and misinformation all around. the issues and specifics are not well understood, and flame wars from both sides make the issues hard to discuss rationally with true believers, the totally uninformed and the semi-informed from all sides. as a gun owner, i'm not a member of the nra and i don't think ted nugent is 'cool' (or even fuckin' rational, for that matter)...so i'm not like other gun owners and don't relate to or think like them, i guess....so all of that combined kinda makes things difficult all around.

never thought i'd spend so much time on meta -- or anywhere -- talking about guns and gun control...this doesn't fully define me, at all...mine stays put away until mid-november, and gets put away again by early december...

and WOW is this thread movin'...

posted by g.i.r. at 12:22 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


Imagine that you're 10 or 11, and your mom and dad are not only going to let you stay up and go out for a midnight movie, but you're going to get dressed up like a superhero and see this amazing movie

Yeah, I've been trying pretty hard today to keep from imagining this.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:26 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Warner Bros. pulled the video BobbyVan links to above.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:34 PM on July 20, 2012


What I don't understand, g.i.r., is why you had any occasion to ask that "if" at all, as only a handful of people that aren't being taken seriously are even proposing the taking away of guns in the first place. And none of those people are here, so I'm wondering why you introduced this into the conversation, is all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:35 PM on July 20, 2012


Where's our 9/11 commission on Domestic Shootings? These things happen fairly often; I sometimes get confused over which mass shooting someone is referring to. Our sample size is big enough that we could start looking for common elements in the people who commit these awful acts. All I ever recall hearing is the local communities affected review and revamp their procedures for dealing with them. I've never heard of anyone trying to figure out why the fuck they happen in the first place and what the fuck we could do to reduce the chance of them happening again.

Me, I'm forced to agree with Davenhill, "this is ... [an] acceptable level of ... violence.". It's an American pathology.
posted by benito.strauss at 12:35 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


For those who don't know, the UK responded differently to gun massacres:

The Hungerford massacre in 1987 (16 dead) was swiftly followed by the Firearms act 1998 which banned most semi-automatic weapons.

The Dublane school massacre in 1996 (17 dead) led to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and Firearms (Amendment No. 2) Act 1997 essentially banning all cartridge using handguns.
posted by NailsTheCat at 12:35 PM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


On a technical level, an automatic weapon is one that loads, fires, and discharges the casings automatically when the trigger is pulled. A semi-automatic weapon is an automatic weapon, as is a fully-automatic weapon. The anti-gun people aren't using the wrong terminology - firearm owners are confusing slang - automatic - with the proper technical term - fully-automatic.

Also, as the recent wars have taught us, semi-automatic firearms are more deadly than fully-automatic firearms when shot hand-held. You can hit more targets to better effect by selecting and making individual shots than you can firing a bunch of them off all at once (there's a reason why they call it spray-n-pray). While sometimes still used in covering-fire, full-auto is almost never used by soldiers in the field - semi-auto only. (The SAW - Squad Automatic Weapon - is the exception, but it's fired by specialists from a mount, a tripod/bipod or something else solid.)

Bearing this in mind, distinguishing between the various types of automatic weapon is pointless. Capacity is the real killer, IMO - 5-8 shots really needs to be the limit.
posted by Slap*Happy at 12:37 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


edgeways: So, er, are you are saying that from moment to moment any given person is uncategorizably mentally ill?

So, um, er, like, uh... Condescending tone much? And no, I don't think your paraphrase is an accurate restatement of my point.

3 girls where just pulled from Lake Superior (alive) this week because they went swimming without pfds, in huge waves, in high rip tide conditions. Pretty stupid. Mentally ill?

Allow me to re-quote a part of my post that you also quoted: if you purposefully choose to do something stupid, there's a mental disconnect or else a lack of information, such that you don't know what you're about to do is stupid

Either the girls didn't have the information they needed (or the understanding thereof) to know that the water was dangerous, or they knew it was dangerous and decided to risk their lives for a short swim. So yeah, one or the other.

Seriously if you assert that choosing to do something stupid qualifies you as mentally ill, I sort of find that a little silly.

With a powerful, coherent, topical and logical argument like that, I'm not sure what I can say in response. maybe I'll have to rethink things a bit.
posted by syzygy at 12:37 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


"This is the weapon of the enemy." (In line with nicebookrack's comment above...)
posted by Kat Allison at 12:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


As an ignorant Brit, surely there is some free healthcare provision for calamities like this?

Hey, they can always sue.
posted by rtimmel at 12:40 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm astounded by the number of first hand accounts of people who thought Holmes was part of the movie.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:40 PM on July 20, 2012


For those who don't know, the UK responded differently to gun massacres

You have to shoot at a President to get gun reform in this country.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:40 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


It might be worth pointing out that while the whole "ZOMG don't take our guns how will we overthrow the government" is a paranoid fantasy, there have apparently been relatively recent incidents in which a mob of armed citizens accomplished good things. From this essay by Garret Keizer, which is quite interesting:

In Monroe, North Carolina, a motorcade of Ku Klux Klansmen pulled up to a funeral home to "claim" the body of Bennie Montgomery, a black sharecropper recently tried and executed for killing his white boss. With the help of a skilled mediator and a regimen of trust-building exercises, the night riders might have been persuaded to settle for a limb or a chunk of Bennie's torso, but instead they were met by forty African Americans armed with rifles and shotguns. Among them was a former Army private named Robert Williams (1925-96), whose career as a rogue civil rights activist and NAACP officer, a story he tells in his 1962 book, Negroes with Guns, seems to have begun with that (ultimately bloodless) incident.

So perhaps that the idea that weapons might have a last-ditch revolutionary purpose for a specific group of people in a discrete situation of acute oppression by a specific group of people probably has content that's not based on some kind of black-helicopter-conspiracy reading of the 2nd amendment of the U.S. constitution.

(I say this as an almost-pacifist and as a person who doesn't understand why most people who don't actually depend on hunting for their food -- which does not include you and I, collective MeFite -- would think it's a good idea to own a gun.)
posted by kengraham at 12:43 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


You have to shoot at a President to get gun reform in this country.

Provided it's a Republican, preferably white, President. Otherwise you just get elected to lead your local Tea Party chapter.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 12:46 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


evidenceofabsence: And for what it's worth, defining mentally ill as "someone who would do something stupid" is a pretty perfect example of begging the question.

Well, that's not how I defined 'mentally ill', but you may want to take your case to edgeways, who seems to think that perfectly sane people do stupid things (like shoot Archduke Ferdinand because their girlfriend didn't have sex with them the night before).

I don't want to be fighty with you, however. I am of the opinion that we should remove all stigma from the idea of 'mental illness'. We don't stigmatize someone with a heart problem, or breast cancer, or the flu. I feel the same way about mental illness - no one chooses rationally to be mentally ill, and I see absolutely no reason to stigmatize anyone who's ill.

As I said to samsara above, physical and mental illness are apples and apples, and I see no reason to stigmatize someone who's ill.
posted by syzygy at 12:46 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's almost too bad this wasn't terrorism. At least then we might have considered taking some kind of preventative measures.

It was terrorism. What makes you think it wasn't?
posted by caryatid at 12:46 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


It was terrorism. What makes you think it wasn't?

The lack of a political message or goal.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:47 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


When a white guy does it, it's not terrorism, it's an isolated incident related to mental disease.
posted by Renoroc at 12:47 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Anything more "recent" than 1947, kengraham?
posted by mek at 12:47 PM on July 20, 2012


For those who don't know, the UK responded differently to gun massacres

In fact the UK government had to create a special dispensation so that pistol shooting could actually be legal during the London Olympics. All UK pistol shooters since Dunblane have had to train off the mainland.
posted by brilliantmistake at 12:47 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


It's worth noting that Dunblane and Hungerford were massive shocking events that still resonate today in the UK - where as in the US they'd be one of many and probably barely crack national news. Batman shooter will be forgotten in six months time when the next asshole comes along.
posted by Artw at 12:48 PM on July 20, 2012




Batman shooter will be forgotten in six months time when the next asshole comes along.

Like Columbine down the road?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:49 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Sticherbeast: "The lack of a political message or goal."

The goal of inciting terror not enough for you?
posted by radwolf76 at 12:49 PM on July 20, 2012


Regardless of actual gun reform, which I doubt is going to happen, do the incidents like this (and I'm sure we can all name several) shift the polls to the left or right for a time thereafter? Okay, I realize that 9/11 shifted things rightward, but that I'll count that as a different category.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:49 PM on July 20, 2012


Let's see...this guy goes into a movie theatre wearing a gas mask and several pieces of body armor carrying three or four weapons, and opens fire, wounding over 71 people, kills a dozen.

I'm checking my dictionary: Yep. That's fucking nuts.
posted by mule98J at 12:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


When a white guy does it, it's not terrorism, it's an isolated incident related to mental disease.

What a silly comment. The OKC bombings were universally acknowledged as terrorism.
posted by BobbyVan at 12:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Kat Allison: great, NOW is when I tear up...
posted by nicebookrack at 12:53 PM on July 20, 2012


jbickers: Try the tv show Batman: The Brave and the Bold. The fun of superheroes is there (side by side with the backstory of the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents). It's worth a watch.

Batman is urban and modern, the myth *presumes* the truth that gun violence causes emotional scarring. The best of us find a way to overcome it. Batman in the end views his mission as one of public service. If the police cannot or will do the job of fighting crime, then one is compelled to help, to see if there's a way to get more justice for people, more freedom to go see a movie.

Also remember: Batman hates guns.

The myth of a rich couple mugged and killed in front of their son after leaving a theater. Their son goes on to fight crime. That's not a bad myth for today.
posted by artlung at 12:54 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


The goal of inciting terror not enough for you?

Yes. The definition of terrorism is not simply a terrifying event. Terrorism necessarily implies political motive or some other coercive intent.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:55 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


"We do not need it. We will not use it. "

I think there is a lot to be said for the guy at Cafe Racer who ended the killing there by throwing a chair at the shooter.
posted by Artw at 12:55 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


That said, talking Batman related stuff in the wake of this like it matters is kind of making me want to throw up.
posted by Artw at 12:56 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Like Columbine down the road?

There were seventy-four school shootings in the US since Columbine, 56 of them with at least one fatality. How many can you name?
posted by theodolite at 12:57 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


The goal of inciting terror not enough for you?

His goal was not to incite terror. It was to kill people.
posted by dobbs at 12:57 PM on July 20, 2012


What a silly comment. The OKC bombings were universally acknowledged as terrorism.

That's one example and it's true. But in this country it's much easier for people to think of the majority white populace as individuals whereas minorities tend to be thought of as a monolithic group. Minorities are frequently cast as representatives of their group whether they want to be or not.
posted by girlmightlive at 12:58 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


His goal was to be a bullshit hero at the center of his own personal bullshit drama.
posted by Artw at 12:59 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


56 of them with at least one fatality

How many had more than 10? One. VT.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:00 PM on July 20, 2012


So... You're arguing this guy makes the hall of fame due to body count?

/vomits blood.
posted by Artw at 1:01 PM on July 20, 2012


empressC -- at one point i basically said 'automatics won't ever be banned' and somebody basically said 'why not ? you don't need them'... to me, that came across as '...they should be banned.' this seemed to me to be based on a lack of understanding or a generalization of 'automatics' and / or of guns in general. so i responded that 'if' someone tried to take my fairly tame automatic hunting rifle, which is nothing like the gun used in this horrific act, i'd be upset, because they are not the same thing. it was just a hypothetical, really. maybe i read too much into the 'why not ?' comment. if so, i apologize.
posted by g.i.r. at 1:02 PM on July 20, 2012


How many had more than 10? One. VT.

They're sort of like the weather, aren't they? It only really matters anymore if it sets a record.
posted by stavrogin at 1:02 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]




They're sort of like the weather, aren't they? It only really matters anymore if it sets a record.

That wasn't what I meant at all. What I meant was that I don't think that a year from now, if you say "the Batman movie theatre shooting" to someone, that they'll be totally clueless. I'm pretty sure this is a big story.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:03 PM on July 20, 2012


Patton Oswalt just tweeted a link to Charlie Brooker's succinct, scathing indictment of the news media's role in glorifying mass murder. Essential viewing. However else we respond, it'd be a service to humanity in general if we banned even releasing the names of these assholes.
posted by gompa at 1:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [23 favorites]


They're sort of like the weather, aren't they? It only really matters anymore if it sets a record.

why weren't the crazed-gunman-warning sirens sounded?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:04 PM on July 20, 2012


mek: Anything more "recent" than 1947, kengraham?

In the LA riots, post-Rodney King, I was told by a friend that the Asian population more or less had to defend themselves from angry rioters and looters, because the cops were only protecting the white nighborhoods. Only the fact that the Asians were armed, and on patrol in front of their shops and homes, allowed them to still have shops and homes. Many of them would have been wiped out, if they hadn't been armed. Nevermind that they had essentially zero to do with racist cops, and that the racist cops were all protecting the white citizens; the rioters didn't care about that, and were just looking for things to burn.

This guy has always struck me as quite reliable, so I do trust him on this, but I don't have an easy backup cite, unfortunately. I can try to find one if you're not coming up with anything.
posted by Malor at 1:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


"Mental illness" is at once so ambiguous as to be meaningless—what does describing him as "mentally ill" achieve?

It provides comfort to those who want an explanation of why it happened, any explanation.
posted by Wordwoman at 1:06 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


it's pretty easy to fall into these traps that are ready-made for us, and to unwittingly fight the battles that a few people want us to fight, and not really listen to one another. i know i'm guilty of it sometimes. i try every day to be more understanding.

on preview, thanks coldchef.
posted by g.i.r. at 1:06 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Thank you for the update, ColdChef. I will keep her in my prayers.
posted by BobbyVan at 1:08 PM on July 20, 2012


Thanks for the update, ColdChef. I hope she and the other wounded are able to recover fully.
posted by Gelatin at 1:13 PM on July 20, 2012


because sensible gun control laws could have prevented this person from being able to murder 15 people and injure dozens more

"Gun control" is an oxymoron - guns are so simple to produce and free trade is so difficult to monitor that it will forever be categorically impossible for the U.S. to ever be able to keep guns out of the hands of a mentally ill person who really wants them. Therefore, suggesting that "stricter gun control laws" will stop things like this from happening is on par with trying to legislate Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. The sooner we accept that reality, the better. Tragedies like this happen; that is a sad reality of life. Even if my some miracle guns were successfully kept out of the hands of psychopaths, a well-stocked kitchen has enough explosive chemicals to level a city block. Rather than buying into the "gun control" fantasy, we need to accept that mentally ill people will always have access to firepower, and try to work on better methods to detect and treat mental illness in our society.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 1:13 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


I saw the movie earlier this week at a special pre-premiere.

It was pretty good, but that said, there is a definite element to our culture lately which encourages a dangerous level of wish fulfillment, with a lot of "collapse of civilization"/all-hell-breaking-loose scenarios.

Perhaps the perception that this person made is that it's better to be an empowered villain than to be a useless cog, as society makes its last swirls around the bowl.

If films are about wish fulfillment, then perhaps we need to insist upon better wishes.
posted by markkraft at 1:15 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]



The lack of a political message or goal.


That you know of.

The term terrorism is not restricted to violence perpetrated with a political message or goal in mind.
posted by caryatid at 1:16 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


That is complete fucking bullshit, wolfdreams. You can't stop all drunks from ever driving, either, but that doesn't mean you just give up and let everyone drink and drive.
posted by stavrogin at 1:17 PM on July 20, 2012 [24 favorites]


g.i.r / empressC - that person was me.

Basically I was asking what specific objections do you have to enacting laws like the ones they have in the UK, where all automatic (semi and otherwise) rifles above .22 cal are banned. I was trying to be as specific as possible with my questions. I don't know exactly how the banning worked in the UK, and if they actually sent around government agents to collect guns.

I do know that rifle hunting continues on in this country. What I was hoping to hear was if the rules they have in place make sense from a public safety perspective (which to my mind covers both issues around hunting, and this shooting). I was also hoping to hear from the hunters in the thread if it would pose any serious issues in hunting for sport / food. It sounds like it positively effected you g.i.r, but you also said that you are ok with the years that you don't bring anything home. I can imagine if there are those that hunt for sustenance, it may be more of an issue.

The only semi-automatic thing I have shot is a paintball marker, so I am well aware of the fact that I don't have all the knowledge.

This post upthread covers the laws that I am talking about more specifically
posted by jonbro at 1:20 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


"Rather than buying into the 'gun control' fantasy, we need to accept that mentally ill people will always have access to firepower ..."

And yet, somehow, hundreds of other nations have managed it more or less successfully.
posted by kyrademon at 1:22 PM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


That is complete fucking bullshit, wolfdreams. You can't stop all drunks from ever driving, either, but that doesn't mean you just give up and let everyone drink and drive.

That's true.

However, the unfortunate reality appears to be that even if we had strict gun control, this guy could have gotten those weapons without any real trouble. He had no criminal history, was well educated and so on.

It sucks, but a sufficiently driven and put together violent douche can do a lot of damage and there isn't really much you can do to stop it.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:24 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]




Screening gun buyers for mental illness could help.
posted by stavrogin at 1:26 PM on July 20, 2012


"Rather than buying into the 'gun control' fantasy, we need to accept that mentally ill people will always have access to firepower ..."

Easy access = more likely to happen.
Difficult access = less likely to happen.

However, the unfortunate reality appears to be that even if we had strict gun control, this guy could have gotten those weapons without any real trouble.

Yet I can happily say that I have absolutely no means of obtaining such weaponry in the UK, where we have strict gun control.
posted by Hobo at 1:27 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Given that this guy had a loaded handgun in his car and strapped on body armor, it's clear he expected to leave the scene of the crime. The reports are saying he booby-trapped his apartment pretty well, too. Clearly this is premeditated murder. I honestly hope they do not allow cameras in the courtroom because I care not one whit about what this person ever says. It's being reported now that he said "I am the joker" and you know what, he can't be, because I am. And I'm not going to kill anyone. (I'm also a picker, a grinner, a lover and a sinner.) This is a tragedy that's unrelated to anything that anyone could have done, except the deranged individual who committed this heinous act.

Heck, even I posted links upthread to the God Bless America and the Gangster Squad trailers and now folks are pointing to a page from Frank Miller's 80's grim Dark Knight comic. Bah, fingerpointing. Look hundreds of thousands, millions maybe have seen that ephemera and not shot up movie theaters. Now there's talk of pulling the film from theaters? What does that serve except as some strange admission that this guy's act of murder has won a hollow victory? Would they be that afraid it would happen again?
posted by Catblack at 1:30 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


The Onion: Sadly, Nation Knows Exactly How Colorado Shooting's Aftermath Will Play Out

Not funny. Depressingly percipient.
posted by schmod at 1:31 PM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


"Gun control" is an oxymoron - guns are so simple to produce and free trade is so difficult to monitor that it will forever be categorically impossible for the U.S. to ever be able to keep guns out of the hands of a mentally ill person who really wants them.
Right, and we can never catch all speeders, so we shouldn't have speed limits. Everything is impossible if we refuse to address problems rationally and deliberately ignore how other nations successfully address them.

Sensible gun control doesn't mean banning all (or even most) gun sales. The fact that we can't instantly solve the problem of the hundreds of millions of guns just floating around society doesn't mean we shouldn't try to take a sensible, multi-generational approach to reducing gun violence.
posted by Davenhill at 1:31 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Gah, I just went to write to my congressperson (Diana DeGette) about gun laws and saw her tweet:

Our CO community has been shaken by a horrific act of violence. My family joins nation in praying for the victims.

WTF, Diane. We didn't elect you to pray for people. What are you going to do about gun violence???
posted by Wordwoman at 1:31 PM on July 20, 2012 [15 favorites]


Only in America are gun massacres of this kind routine, expectable, and certain to continue.

Real question: does any other country have as many guns per capita already in circulation? My sense (perhaps inaccurate) is that even if no guns or ammunition were legally sold in the U.S. from this moment forward, there's still more than enough to enable gun crimes to keep rolling on for centuries. I'd be very interested in some stats on that.
posted by argonauta at 1:32 PM on July 20, 2012


You can't stop all drunks from ever driving, either, but that doesn't mean you just give up and let everyone drink and drive.

neither do you simply outlaw automobiles.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:32 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Make gun companies financially liable for gun deaths and let the free market sort out the details.
posted by Davenhill at 1:33 PM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


We have "gun control". US society is completely controlled by gun-backed laws. Also provided for and expanded by gun-centered military. In much of American mythology, the gun-shooter is the hero. Large collections of value are protected by guns. Millions of Americans worship guns to the point of fetishism. Actually, the name of the country could be changed to "The United States of Guns" and it wouldn't be too far off the mark.
posted by telstar at 1:33 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


> You can't stop all drunks from ever driving, either, but that doesn't mean you just give up and let everyone drink and drive.

neither do you simply outlaw automobiles.


But you DO require people who wish to drive to apply for a license.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:34 PM on July 20, 2012 [16 favorites]


As the people from Aurora are still reeling from this shock, I hope that they may have a few moments of quiet to themselves. One storm has rocked their community already—the storm of a single man. Another storm is coming. A storm of many people—media, national politicians, radio news anchors, bloggers, fringe groups, tragedy tourists. They're already begun their pilgrimage. They're putting the town of Aurora under their lenses. They're applying the town of Aurora to whatever rubrics of political beliefs, each side using it as an example of how their policies need to be enacted. This wouldn't have happened. If you'd only give us power...

The media will be churning everything up. There will be no escape. They will crash into town with little regard for its inhabitants. They'll make snide comments about your local coffee, your podunk town, your ugly clothing. Then turn around and pretend to be your best friend, get you to cry into a camera. It's ok, let it all out. Thats what their producers want. They've already written your role for you. You are the grieving community. You will cry and feel outrage, but inspire our viewing demographics with your courage and triumph over tragedy.

The tragedy tourists—they span the spectrum from creepy to wonderfully absurdist. All so uniquely American. Shriners will be there, and Scientologists in yellow vests. People will try to give you things. Pamphlets. Books. Prayers. Elementary schools will fold paper cranes and send them. Amish women will make quilts. Businesses will send trinkets. Artists will create works, put on performances, sing songs. The general public feels an urge to do something, to give something, and that urge passes when they face their monolith of their smallness, their inability to fix things, their own fragility. For them, complacency replaces action. Not for tragedy tourists. These people do and create and in some cases impose those actions on to you.

The titan of tragedy is already barreling on its tracks towards Aurora. The absolute nakedness your community will feel, will linger for years. And something else will be forged in it. A shared bond. Sometimes we don't make our communities until something forces it.

.
posted by fontophilic at 1:36 PM on July 20, 2012 [15 favorites]


Easy access = more likely to happen.
Difficult access = less likely to happen.


That's very true, but it's only relevant to your point, if creating a fake ID and pretending to be somebody else is "difficult." Hell, I could probably set up a whole fake identity for myself in a month just by calling the right government offices with a sob story - no forgery required.

...though I will grant you, most of these lunatics do seem to be lacking a certain mental capacity, so perhaps you're onto something there.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 1:40 PM on July 20, 2012


From that ONION piece:

While admitting they "absolutely hate" the fact they have this knowledge, the nation's 300 million citizens told reporters they can pinpoint down to the hour when the first candlelight vigil will be held, roughly how many people will attend, how many times the county sheriff will address the media in the coming weeks, and when the town-wide memorial service will be held.

Additionally, sources nationwide took no pleasure in confirming that some sort of video recording, written material, or disturbing photographs made by the shooter will be surfacing in about an hour or two.

"I hate to say it, but we as Americans are basically experts at this kind of thing by now,” said 45-year-old market analyst Jared Gerson, adding that the number of media images of Aurora, CO citizens crying and looking shocked is “pretty much right in line with where it usually is at this point." "The calls not to politicize the tragedy should be starting in an hour, but by 1:30 p.m. tomorrow the issue will have been politicized. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if the shooter’s high school classmate is interviewed within 45 minutes."

"It's like clockwork," said Gerson, who sighed, shook his head, and walked away.

According to the nation's citizenry, calls for a mature, thoughtful debate about the role of guns in American society started right on time, and should persist throughout the next week or so. However, the populace noted, the debate will soon spiral out of control and ultimately lead to nothing of any substance, a fact Americans everywhere acknowledged they felt "absolutely horrible" to be aware of.


I think I'll just shut up for now, maybe do some long overdue housework. And I'm not even American.
posted by philip-random at 1:41 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


>>You can't stop all drunks from ever driving, either, but that doesn't mean you just give up and let everyone drink and drive.

>neither do you simply outlaw automobiles.


Harm of the US outlawing personal automobiles starting tomorrow: economy collapses; lawlessness, starvation; suffering on a massive scale unheard of in human history

Harm of the US outlawing personal firearms starting tomorrow: some impact on hunters and sportspeople, and the elimination of rare instances of successful self defense with guns.

Am I missing something? I must be, but I don't know what.
posted by gurple at 1:43 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


The titan of tragedy is already barreling on its tracks towards Aurora. The absolute nakedness your community will feel, will linger for years. And something else will be forged in it. A shared bond. Sometimes we don't make our communities until something forces it.

Thanks, but the Denver area has already had considerable experience with this kind of thing in the Columbine shootings. I wish I could say that some greatness was forged there, but I see no evidence of it.
posted by Wordwoman at 1:45 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Aurora is 28 miles from Columbine, Colorado. This is more of a "not again" thing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:46 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


It is incredibly difficult for me to put myself in front of a person who proudly defends the rights of hypotheticals by casting aside actual dead people as collateral damage and see them as a worthwhile human being. What a shameful mindset you have.

It is incredibly difficult for me to put myself in front of a person who tries to achieve their political agenda by using actual dead people to galvanize people's emotions, instead of relying on logical thought and critical analysis. I look down on you for that. Other people on this thread have disagreed with me (and I fully respect their right to do so), but what makes them better human beings than you is that they're using logical argument and analogy instead of your disgustingly irrelevant emotional appeal. "Look at him, he ain't got no feelings... LET'S GIT IM!"
posted by wolfdreams01 at 1:46 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Am I missing something? I must be, but I don't know what.

Yet more encroachment of the police state? Isn't the War on Drugs fucking enough?

Haven't the last thirty years taught you that prohibition doesn't work?
posted by Malor at 1:49 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


For those interested, Trailer Addict still has the Gangster Squad trailer online. I doubt it will stil be there at close of business today. Right at the two-minute mark, there is a moment of several gunmen shooting through a movie screen into a packed theater.
posted by andreaazure at 1:49 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


The Onion: Sadly, Nation Knows Exactly How Colorado Shooting's Aftermath Will Play Out

Horribly, horribly accurate.
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


wolfdreams01: "their political agenda by using actual dead people to galvanize people's emotions, instead of relying on logical thought and critical analysis."

When the political agenda being advocated would have prevented those people from being dead, I find this cop-out to be completely off-base.

It's time to set "politics" aside (since politics are apparently an intrinsically bad thing that can never be discussed), and step down from the high horse. You're concern trolling.
posted by schmod at 1:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I like what happened on Something Awful. They made argument about gun control in that thread a bannable offense.
posted by Snyder at 1:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


People, seriously: as shakespeherian said above, don't be dicks to each other. For a thread about several highly charged and contentious subjects, we're doing remarkably well as far as civility goes right now. Don't let this thread devolve from "I completely disagree with your assertion that X" into "you're a terrible human being for thinking X."
posted by tzikeh at 1:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


> Well, plenty of idiots think outlets like ABC are "lefties".

One way to spot knee-jerk righties is, do they leap to connect someone like this to, oh, Occupy Wall Street on no evidence. In exact symmetry, one way to spot knee-jerk lefties is, do they leap to connect someone like this to the Tea Party on no evidence. ABC spokesman did so, therefore ABC spokesman (or whatever producer is pulling his strings) is knee-jerk lefty.
posted by jfuller at 1:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Malor: "Haven't the last thirty years taught you that prohibition doesn't work?"

No, but the mostly-successful gun control policies in Western Europe have shown that it's worth trying in this particular instance.

It's not like we don't know what will happen if we regulate firearms more heavily. There's mountains of data from countries that have done it.
posted by schmod at 1:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Anything more "recent" than 1947, kengraham?

Some more recent examples:

Members of the American Indian Movement, some of whom were armed, and some of whom ended up exchanging gunfire with government forces, occupied Wounded Knee in 1973. Part of the motivation was the perception that official authorities had failed to protect Native Americans from violent crimes in border communities (by being extremely lenient with some white murderers of Native American victims), and the subsequent response to protest. More generally, AIM protested a long history of broken treaties with the US government, which showed that the state could not be relied upon to serve the interests of some of its constituents, and was actually instrumental in their oppression.

In the late 1960s, the Black Panther Party famously established armed presences to discourage police brutality.

I've never had to deal with having the system designed to protect me instead elaborately stacked against me, so I'm slow to condemn someone's claims to self-defense if they do (have the system stacked against them). I don't think the militia crazies are people with the system elaborately stacked against them, though, even if the state routinely, to this day, uses unjustified violence against citizens with or without due process ("due process" is no justification for using violence; in fact, it's a type of premeditation if the end result is violence).

Although I am slow to condemn them, I'm not a supporter of such tactics, because there are many, many instances of out-and-out thuggery and evil when violence meets social struggle, and it's very difficult to draw distinctions. I don't think initiating the use of force is ever okay, and I don't think the use of force in revenge is ever okay. I think violence is okay only in violent situations from which it is the only means of escape. Any gun ownership -- or, on a larger scale, maintenance of a large military/militarized police force -- creates the potential for such situations way more often than it mitigates them.

That's why the issue is tricky for me: I believe things would almost certainly be better if someone went around and confiscated the guns, because very few people have a truly good reason, and sufficient responsibility, and moral authority to own something designed to injure and kill. I don't think the government, with its militarized SWAT teams and drug warriors and drone warfare and warrantless wiretapping and indefinite detention and waterboarding has the moral authority to round up the guns, though.

All I'm saying is that it's not like there's a pack of wide-eyed violence-fetishizing crazies paranoid that the fair-minded and just state is going to come and take their guns. The first part is true, but the second part fails to recognize that even something innocuous and likely beneficial -- regulation of private gun ownership -- will be predicated on the coercive power of a group (the state) with a vastly superior capacity to do violence and a terrible ethical record. Perhaps the social good is worth it, but we should recognize that gun control is a final admission that we've completely handed over the monopoly on violence to an entity over which we have very little real oversight or control, and which has little actual regard for the personal agency of citizens and is content to conflate consumer choice with personal freedom in its propaganda etc.

And when they come for cryptography or issue biometric ID cards, I might start to have some black-helicopter feelings, too. Therefore, for now, I'll at least be open to the idea that the gun-nuts' crazy rhetoric is (tenuously) related to some real concerns.
posted by kengraham at 1:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


Mod note: Time again for deep breaths all around, folks. Please don't make this personal.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:53 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Harm of the US outlawing personal firearms starting tomorrow: some impact on hunters and sportspeople, and the elimination of rare instances of successful self defense with guns.

That's the thing -- it's really not a very honest analogy to compare gun ownership with ownership of something that the typical ordinary civilian actually needs for a practical, non-recreational reason. A better analogy would probably be to a toy. If a toy is found to cause unnecessary deaths and injuries, that toy is removed from the market, and no one (aside from that "Bag o' Glass" guy from SNL) complains.

I've thought in the past about buying a gun for self-defense, but maybe I'll look into the feasibility of using a bow and arrow instead.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 1:54 PM on July 20, 2012


When the political agenda being advocated would have prevented those people from being dead, I find this cop-out to be completely off-base.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

So far as I can tell, the bombs he made and the tear gas he used are also illegal to posses and use and yet, here we are.

I have seen no evidence so far that he would have failed any reasonably well designed background check. And even the face of a full on firearms ban was apparently intelligent and driven enough to find alternative means of killing people.

So, no, you can't say a firearms ban would have prevented him from doing something like this, it is not possible to know it.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:54 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]




One way to spot knee-jerk righties is, do they leap to connect someone like this to, oh, Occupy Wall Street on no evidence. In exact symmetry, one way to spot knee-jerk lefties is, do they leap to connect someone like this to the Tea Party on no evidence. ABC spokesman did so, therefore ABC spokesman (or whatever producer is pulling his strings) is knee-jerk lefty.

In fairness I am not aware of any Occupy members who routinely show up with weapons at their rallies.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:57 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


One way to spot knee-jerk righties is, do they leap to connect someone like this to, oh, Occupy Wall Street on no evidence. In exact symmetry, one way to spot knee-jerk lefties is, do they leap to connect someone like this to the Tea Party on no evidence. ABC spokesman did so, therefore ABC spokesman (or whatever producer is pulling his strings) is knee-jerk lefty.

I think that's a false symmetry. It's not the same thing to connect an act of gun-related violence to a group that doesn't advocate violence in any way, let alone with guns, as to connect it to a group that explicitly endorses/threatens violence (and specifically gun violence).
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 2:00 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


There's a lot of misinfo about assault rifles.

What is generally considered the first modern assault rifle was the Sturmgewehr 44, or fairly literally 'storm rifle', a german weapon from WWII.

The infantry rifle could be fired accurately at much longer ranges; but due to its length and low rate of fire was unsuitable for close-quarters-battle. The machine pistol/sub machinegun was much more suitable for close quarters; with its high rate of fire, and lower recoil (due to lower power pistol cartridges), along with shorter barrel length. But those things also made it unsuitable for ranged engagements, as it was inaccurate.

The 'storm rifle', was for storming, or assaulting an enemy position. It was as much a political name as anything else. The stG44 fired a short rifle cartridge, and could be used like a rifle at range - but also could be used at close quarters with a full automatic mode. It also had a pistol grip, like a sub-machine gun. It was intended to fulfill both the role of rifleman and sub-machine gunner. Pretty much all militaries switched to assault rifles, biased more towards the rifle or the fully automatic mode, but fairly fundamentally similar to the stG44. The latest versions tend towards 'burst mode' instead of full automatic; 3 or 4 rounds fired per trigger pull, which gives greater accuracy without the ammo-wasting less effective 'spray and pray' of full automatic.

Thing is, assault rifles, along with all full-automatic weapons, have been banned in the USA for civilian purchase for decades, only 'grandfathered in' and military/police ones exist. What's left are semi-automatic or bolt action rifles, very similar to the older infantry rifles that the assault rifle replaced. Semi-automatic weapons are still extremely deadly; a full metal jacket rifle round at close range will drill right through a person, the person behind them, and the wall behind them - the damage is horrifying. Even a single low weight pistol round is often lethal - and an extended magazine with 30 rounds can be fired empty in a few seconds. Combine that with the literally deafening noise in an enclosed space? It must have been an unbelievably hellish and terrifying experience to go through, even for those for survived, and they all have my fullest sympathies.

There is no banning of 'assault rifles', or assault style weapons, or automatic weapons, specifically that would stop an incident like this. They're already banned (assault rifles/full automatic); or banning them would ban basically all hunting rifles and handguns too - mechanically, how they work, how they fire, there is no difference. Either you have large scale civilian ownership of firearms, or you don't. Given so many people are wounded or killed by their own weapons - or in horrific events like this - I personally think you'd be better off as a society without them; but then being a brit who's only ever once held a deactivated firearm, and never fired one, I don't miss it, or need one.

Whether such a thing is even possible, given the fetishization so many americans have for guns, and gun violence? Even then, you've got hundreds of millions in circulation, and any semi-competent metal smith can make ammunition and repair them.

If you're talking about a ban, you need to think about restricting everyone to nothing more than double barrelled shotguns for farmers, and 22 bolt action rifles for small game hunting, with confiscation of all the rest. Anything else is a meaningless distinction. A media style 'assault rifle' is mechanically a hunting rifle. An 'automatic pistol' is a common semi-automatic handgun with a larger magazine. All that really differs is how they look. Whether a UK-style ban could possibly work, even with a constitutional amendment? I doubt it. The whole american attitude to guns is the real problem, and not one that would not be solved with a widescale ban. You'd just have people burying them in their gardens - or shooting police who came to collect them.
posted by ArkhanJG at 2:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


jonbro - the most common AR-15 is a .22 caliber (.223 to be more exact). Caliber isn't a great guide for deciding what to ban. For example the .17 Hornet can do plenty of damage.
posted by Carbolic at 2:02 PM on July 20, 2012


More Onion: NRA: 'Please Try To Remember All The Wonderful Things Guns Do For Us Every Day'

Damn. As someone said in another thread, when the folks at the Onion are mad or hurting about something, they take their game to another level.
posted by lord_wolf at 2:06 PM on July 20, 2012 [20 favorites]


Somewhere between reading about the healthcare costs for victims and the guns/cars comparison, I had a thought.

In order to drive a car, you're required to hold insurance to pay for others injuries/losses due to an accident. Would a similar insurance structure work for guns? It seems so heartless that there's no system in place to at least pay for the victims medical bills, even if it can't restore their peace of mind.
posted by peppermind at 2:06 PM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


In the LA riots, post-Rodney King, I was told by a friend that the Asian population more or less had to defend themselves from angry rioters and looters, because the cops were only protecting the white nighborhoods.

I remember that. My husband (Asian) worked at a paper recycling plant (Asian-owned) in Compton. They hired men with guns to patrol the roof top. I think they were terrified of arson. I was terrified every time my husband drove to work. On the other hand, the Japanese dentist I worked for in downtown Long Beach just closed the office for a week because he thought it was better not to endanger his employees or his patients.


"Haven't the last thirty years taught you that prohibition doesn't work?"

You know who is have phenomenal success at prohibiting something? Anti-abortionists. Their death-by-a-thousand-cuts-legislation is having tremendous impact.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


Oh man, I'm glad a few people decided to lighten up this otherwise dark day by bringing out that hilarious trope that citizens with small arms are any kind of serious check against tyranny.
posted by mullingitover at 2:09 PM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


Also that a knife is just as deadly!
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


ah, ok. I was waiting for that answer, re: caliber. I shot .22s before, and while I was aware that they could do some damage, I wasn't sure how much.

That said, it appears that the AR-15 is banned in semi auto form under the UK rules. It looks like you need to convert it into a bolt action. So I guess I am misinterpreting the caliber restrictions in the uk gun ban. On further digging it appears you can only have .22 caliber rimfire semi automatic weapons. Not sure why the rimfire vs center fire make a difference.
posted by jonbro at 2:13 PM on July 20, 2012


Oh my god, what a horrible thing. I'd heard something earlier, but had no idea.

.

For the victims of this senseless crime.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:15 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Rimfires are lower pressure than centre fire, due to the nature of how they ignite. Lower pressure = lower muzzle velocity = marginally less deadly.
posted by ArkhanJG at 2:16 PM on July 20, 2012


Oh man, I'm glad a few people decided to lighten up this otherwise dark day by bringing out that hilarious trope that citizens with small arms are any kind of serious check against tyranny.

People using small arms and IEDs have kept the entire US military (plus various NATO forces) busy in Iraq and Afghanistan for years.
posted by Forktine at 2:16 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Wordwoman,

Greatness? No. I didn't mean to imply that. More like, a shared memory. The ability to know you have something in common with someone you didn't know before. You both have that invisible mark. You're both from that town.

I'm mostly speaking of my experiences being a student at Virginia Tech on April 16, 2007. My school's name (as google reminds me each time I look up football scores) is mostly followed by "massacre". Those people who shared this event with me as a community understand. I don't have to second guess if I should add my school's name into a conversation. Don't have to wait for that pause, as people estimate my age wondering if I was "there". We can talk about it without causing awkwardness for other people. It's like suddenly revealing to someone that you have a third limb, and geeze, shouldn't you have a doctor look at that? I'm not qualified.

I don't know. I'm mostly rambling now. A little bit dismayed that The Onion captured what I was thinking today. I really suppose this is much less unique than I thought.
posted by fontophilic at 2:16 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


thanks for clarifying, jonbro. seems i may have initially miscontrued the meaning of what you had said...i am sorry.

if we could all shake each other's hands, and look each other in the eyes, and hear tones of voice, maybe we could better understand one another. this interconnectedness is both a blessing and a curse...

getting to the root of things and really listening is the key. and the specifics matter when attempting to bridge two sides. i have been doing some political grass-roots stuff in my area, and it's tough to see two sides fight, and try to figure out ways to overcome the emotions and misinformation. hell, as a grass-roots we get flack from believers in the established system over working *outside* the system because they think we're not legitimate...and we get flack from outsiders for periodically working *with* the system because they think we're shills for the establishment...and that's from people on 'our' side ! now try to bridge the gaps with the 'other' side !....

it's the same all over, no matter the topic -- gun control, politics, taxes, schools....we gotta get these few assholes, who literally profit from inflaming the issues, off our backs, and stop listening to them, and start listening to the people right in front of us, and all around us...and do it with respect...

hunting is most certainly not the sum total of who i am but it is a deep-rooted and important part of who i am, even though it's only a couple weeks out of the year for me. my recent farming ancestors depended on it for food, and there are time-honored family traditions that i would miss very deeply if it were to end. overall, it is a big deal here in the great lakes, for those reasons (among others), even though that isn't always explicitly stated or obvious. and so it comes across all wrong sometimes. the gun fetishists (non-'true' hunters) don't help matters....they are usually louder than the rest of us, and tend to stigmatize the whole thing.

i have a friend who feels the same way i do...he is kind of a hippie / pacifist / peacenik, but is also a bigger hunter than i am (in that he hunts birds and other stuff, stretching year-round)...he describes hunting in ways that would very much move you, even if you are an animal activist or anti-gun person...the communion with nature and the land, and its bounty, the rhythms of nature, understanding where food comes from and how it's harvested, being responsible for the act of that harvest and how it is done...i can't fully do it justice with my simple description. most people who 'get' that can't put it into words...they just say 'it's huntin'...you either 'get it' or ya don't.' and to someone who hasn't ever felt or been a part of the things i've attempted to describe, that can be misconstrued as 'i shore do like killin'...when that's not really what it's all about.

military-style weapons with high-capacity magazines don't fit into this picture.
posted by g.i.r. at 2:16 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


So, Fox News is apparently calling for costumes to be banned at movies theaters now, and AMC is moving to do it. Because obviously guns don't kill people, people with guns don't kill people, but people with costumes do.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:17 PM on July 20, 2012 [24 favorites]


I think that's a false symmetry. It's not the same thing to connect an act of gun-related violence to a group that doesn't advocate violence in any way, let alone with guns, as to connect it to a group that explicitly endorses/threatens violence (and specifically gun violence).

That's ridiculous, El Sabor. You link to one Tea Party "leader" from Mississippi who says nothing about "gun violence." It's more fair to say that OWS and the Tea Party are grassroots, populist movements that are mostly peaceful, but for a few outliers and crazies (which you'll find in any sufficiently large crowd).
posted by BobbyVan at 2:18 PM on July 20, 2012


jonbro:

Just to avoid any confusion, although a .22 calibre and .223 calibre round may have a similar diameter, the .223 is much more powerful. It is a center fire, high speed round used as the primary round by the U.S. and other NATO militaries.

So it's nothing like your .22 calibre rabbit-shooter. It'd be more of a rabbit-vaporizer.
posted by syzygy at 2:19 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]




thanks g.i.r, and sorry if there was any confusion. I have no problem with hunting at all, nor with gun ownership, I was just trying to understand some of the nuances. This is a complex and confusing issue, as illustrated by my confusion over center vs. rimfire, among other things.

I am certainly not trying to shut down hunting, I have that in my families recent past as well. I never hunted myself, but I certainly ate my share of venison. I know somewhat where you are coming from.

I think when I moved from the states to the UK (scotland), I was expecting to see literally zero guns here.

When I did see that there is still hunting and sport shooting that happens around here, I was pretty surprised. I never dug into the details of the gun control laws here until today. Now that I have, they sounded pretty sane to me as an outsider (both outside hunting, and outside UK culture), and I just wanted more clarification. Thanks for being patient with me!
posted by jonbro at 2:31 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


That's ridiculous, El Sabor. You link to one Tea Party "leader" from Mississippi who says nothing about "gun violence." It's more fair to say that OWS and the Tea Party are grassroots, populist movements that are mostly peaceful, but for a few outliers and crazies (which you'll find in any sufficiently large crowd).

Sorry, didn't mean to be ridiculous by connecting the Tea Party with guns. By the way, here's a good photo of the handgun on the sign where they don't threaten gun violence. I'll get back to you when I find photos of pistol-packin' Occupy protesters.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 2:32 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Details of what happened inside, from Jessica Ghawi's brother

I feel sick.
posted by Pendragon at 2:32 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Is the AR-15 and explicit marker for assholery or what? What is the point of the thing?
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on July 20, 2012


So, Fox News is apparently calling for costumes to be banned at movies theaters now, and AMC is moving to do it.

If we here on Metafilter are left scratching our heads and getting snarky with each other because we don't know how to handle the situation imagine the what Cinema chain owners are doing. My guess is many many people will decide not to go to the movies for the next week or two. Profits are being endangered so the owners will be scrambling. As was said earlier they will want to react with security theater but unlike congress will have to pay for this out of their own pockets. But, voila! A free solution offers itself. A ban on costumes will cost nothing but will reassure the public that Something is being done!

Anybody want to hazard a guess on how long or how serious a movie theater boycott will be? I don't mean a boycott in the political sense but I do imagine many people will be uncomfortable with the idea of going to the movies for a period of time much less taking their kids.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:41 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Cinemark, the theatre owner, bans guns except for law enforcement.

So if someone like Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) says that looser gun laws would have lessened this tragedy, he is not correct.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:43 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


I was going to hold off on this movie because I don't like crowds. Now I feel compelled to go to show that I understand my chances are greater of being struck by lightning on my way to the theater than being shot while in one.
posted by cjorgensen at 2:44 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 2:46 PM on July 20, 2012


Oh man, I'm glad a few people decided to lighten up this otherwise dark day by bringing out that hilarious trope that citizens with small arms are any kind of serious check against tyranny.

Tyranny can't even do pushups. Arms too small.
posted by srboisvert at 2:49 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?

Not in the long run, but some people get scared (for obvious reasons) when something like this happens and they don't always react in a cold and logical manner. Since they are not robots.

But mostly people won't stop going to movies in the same way that people didn't stop using the mail when somebody dropped anthrax in it. Won't stop going to movies more than they are already stopping, that is. Since movie attendance has been in decline for quite some time.
posted by Justinian at 2:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


But if there was mental illness involved, can we please discuss the fact that people having psychotic episodes with long, documented histories of mental illness nonetheless seem to have no problem getting guns?

It looks like that was not the case in this situation, Bunny - no documented mental illness on file. But my issue with that idea is that many people have some degree of mental illness - OCD, PTSD, depression, etc. Many of those mental illnesses do not produce violence towards others. I think it would be wrong to restrict their access based on a broad lumping of "mental illness."

Naw bro cuz that same policy allowed all those patrons/victims/poor moviegoers the ability to arm themselves and return fire

It appears that the lack of armed citizens in the movie theater was the result of movie theater policy against guns in-theater.

Seems 100% reasonable to wonder if the guy wearing a gas mask shooting at people at a Batman movie was dressed like the guy in the Batman movie who wears a mask that looks like a gas mask.

This guy wasn't wearing a gas mask because it looked like Bain, he was wearing a gas mask because he was throwing tear gas grenades and wanted to be immune.
posted by corb at 2:51 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


This guy wasn't wearing a gas mask because it looked like Bain, he was wearing a gas mask because he was throwing tear gas grenades and wanted to be immune.

Stop making Rush Limbaugh's head explode.

No, wait -- keep doing it!
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 2:53 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Sorry, didn't mean to be ridiculous by connecting the Tea Party with guns. By the way, here's a good photo of the handgun on the sign where they don't threaten gun violence. I'll get back to you when I find photos of pistol-packin' Occupy protesters.

Let me know next time some ex-Tea Partiers hatch plans to blow up a bridge. I'm not aware of any Tea Partiers actually plotting violent direct action (as we've seen w/ the OWS spinoff Black Bloc), or even getting particularly violent in practice (aside from some random fisticuffs perhaps). All you can show me are pictures of guns, ownership of which happens to be protected by the US Constitution, and an offensive sign at a rally.

The fact remains that it is just as ludicrous to suppose with no evidence that a Tea Partier was responsible for these shootings as it is to suggest that an Occupier was responsible.

Anyway, this is kind of a stupid derail, so you can have the last word if you want.
posted by BobbyVan at 2:55 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?

We're a nation that agreed we should all take off our shoes before we get on airplanes because some moron tried to set his Keds on fire. Indeed, simply not going to the movies for a few weeks would be on the less terrified to the point of stupidity end of the spectrum.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:56 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


Black Bloc's been around way longer than OWS, BobbyVan. They're hijackers, not spinoffs.
posted by saturday_morning at 2:58 PM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


It appears that the lack of armed citizens in the movie theater was the result of movie theater policy against guns in-theater.

Because in a dark, confined space with thin walls that was full of people, where the perpetrator had set off at least one gas/smoke device, there was no chance of any crossfire or other collateral damage. Yes, it's totally the fault of the theater.

For more evidence as to why your vigilante fantasy is a crock of shit, see the link 5 posts above yours
posted by zombieflanders at 2:58 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Is the AR-15 and explicit marker for assholery or what? What is the point of the thing?

Take an AR-15 and make it burst fire/fully automatic and you have an M16. Make it shorter, and you have an M4. The M16 & M4 are military assault rifles/carbines. If you're a military fantasist, then an AR-15 is about as close as you can get to a US military assault rifle and still be legal. That said, there's little to distinguish an AR-15 from any other removable-magazine semi-automatic rifle with a reasonably heavy calibre; it's perception, not capability or function.

Banning extended magazines might make more sense, but a magazine is pretty much just a metal box with a plate and spring to push the cartridges up into the weapon. The difference is how long the box is. And given its just a metal box, making one, or extending one is trivial. Hell, I could probably make one in my dad's garage.

You'd have to ban all mid to large calibre removable-magazine rifles - and go back to smaller capacity clip-fed or individual feed rifles with integral magazines - to make any real difference. And that's a LOT of rifles to ban.
posted by ArkhanJG at 2:58 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


.
posted by angrycat at 2:59 PM on July 20, 2012


BobbyVan:

Those bridge guys were idiots who were egged on and basically setup by the FBI or homeland security. False equivalency.
posted by Windopaene at 2:59 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


If the classic example of the limits of free speech is shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, then surely the limits of unrestricted gun ownership can be illustrated in thinking having everyone packing heat in a crowded, dark, and tear-gassed theater is a viable form of self-defense.
posted by Cash4Lead at 3:00 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Indeed, simply not going to the movies for a few weeks would be on the less terrified to the point of stupidity end of the spectrum.

Ok, how about not going to the movies because the violence in them will be less fun until we forget about this? I am seriously wondering whether I'm going to be able to enjoy Batman as much as I was going to.
posted by victory_laser at 3:00 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Oh and

.

Couldn't believe the story this morning and still can't.
posted by saturday_morning at 3:00 PM on July 20, 2012


In the late 1960s, the Black Panther Party famously established armed presences to discourage police brutality.

What has been more successful in preventing or quelling, or exposing, police brutality over time? The Panthers? Or civil liberties attorneys, non-violent protestors, civilians armed with video cameras, shapers of public opinion, etc.? Why, with the power of free speech and tactics that have proven effective over time in the courts and elsewhere, in an open system (for all its many, many faults), does anyone need to argue, "Hey, we need this, 'cause look how small explosives and arms have kept the military busy in Afghanistan and Iraq," and then argue that this overrides the safety of everyone else? (This wasn't the only such event that occurred this week, y'know. A dude also went into a Tuscaloosa AL bar near the University of Ala. campus and shot 17 people, wounding two critically, and shot another person elsewhere, in what may have been a mistaken identity case.) Are you arguing in favor of legalizing explosives for general use and home defense, or what? I'm asking, because that's what it sounds like from my end.

Look, I opened my Facebook feed Monday morning to see one of those annoying agitprop graphics with a handgun on it, and text reading, "This is what allows you to keep spewing your liberal nonsense." I was already mad about hearing this sort of thing before either of these shootings. This is bullying rhetoric,and self-aggrandizing besides.
posted by raysmj at 3:02 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Ok, how about not going to the movies because the violence in them will be less fun until we forget about this?

That is a rational response, but its not the American way.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:02 PM on July 20, 2012


So if someone like Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) says that looser gun laws would have lessened this tragedy, he is not correct.

Gohmert isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer:

And I know the President made the mistake one day of saying he had visited all 57 states, and I'm well aware that there are not 57 states in this country, although there are 57 members of OIC, the Islamic states in the world. Perhaps there was some confusion whether he'd been to all 57 Islamic states as opposed to all 50 U.S. states. But nonetheless, we have an obligation to the 50 American states, not the 57 Muslim, Islamic states. Our oath we took is in this body, in this House. And it's to the people of America. And it's not to the Muslim Brotherhood, who may very well take over Egypt and once they do, they are bent upon setting up a caliphate around the world, including the United States. And this administration will been [sic] complicit in helping people who wants [sic] to destroy our country.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:02 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?

Think about being a young mom with two kids. Imagine you were planning on taking them this weekend to see a kid's movie. Now imagine how the idea of sitting in a darkened room, surrounded by strangers, with your back to the entrance, loud noises surprising you, no longer sounds very enticing.

My best guess is some people will (irrationally) decide to seek their entertainment somewhere else for awhile.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:02 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Has there been any word yet on what this asshole's major malfunction turned out to be? So far all I've heard is he wasn't diagnosed with any mental illnesses.

I am seriously wondering whether I'm going to be able to enjoy Batman as much as I was going to.

I think I will, but I wasn't planning on going until mid next week so that'll help. Plus I'm pretty good at compartmentalization.
posted by Justinian at 3:03 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?

People don't have to make a causal connection to be a statistic. I can imagine that some percentage of people will just be less in the mood to go see a movie after reading all about this than they might have otherwise been.

Plenty of people choose whether to see a movie or stay in or do something else in a pretty casual "how are you feeling at the moment" way, and don't have to think they'll be shot to not feel like it would be much fun.
posted by mdn at 3:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I am seriously wondering whether I'm going to be able to enjoy Batman as much as I was going to.

I'm going to see the movie as soon as I am able to do so and still be comfortable, which will be late Sunday or Monday evening. Fuck James Holmes.
posted by raysmj at 3:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


My best guess is some people will (irrationally) decide to seek their entertainment somewhere else for awhile.

Yeah, it's understandable. But oddly enough it's not unlikely whatever they choose to do instead will be something far more likely to be injurious, since sitting in movie theater is about as safe as you can get as long as you don't choke on your popcorn or run around in the dark.
posted by Justinian at 3:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


In the aftermath of Columbine, my school took the bold step of outlawing trench coats on campus. When a kid did show up with a trench coat, he was suspended and sent into counseling.

We were, in fact, just about the last school in our area to adopt this policy. We did it under heavy pressure from the parents.

In the midst of all this coverage, we're going to see dozens and dozens of "what can movie theatres do to make YOUR CHILDREN SAFER" news stories. Some of the ideas will be ludicrous. The most ludicrous and showy will be adopted, especially if they can make some people money.

One thing we've learned since 9/11 is that making a huge show of safety trumps taking action that will actually cause safety. Perhaps that has always been true.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Fox News is apparently calling for costumes to be banned at movies theaters now

Cash money, please.

Look, I'm all in favor of gun control. I had a good friend commit suicide in the back patio of the apartment where he lived with the shotgun he bought from the gun shop around the corner. "Ha," he said, as he showed off his new purchase, "I wrote that I was institutionalized for depression on the application and the guy at the gun store crossed it out for me."

We were worried, of course. We tried to engage Kevin every day - but he seemed happy, focused on the future - still, we'd be sure to touch base with him. But we could not be everywhere and dark thought can be anywhere. My call to get him to come see Star Trek Insurrection came on literally dead ears. He killed himself with that gun in the back, unused in winter, hallway while listening to the Mechwarrior soundtrack.

His body was not found for 3 days.

So yeah, I want regulation, but I also want the people on the front lines who are selling guns to enforce them. No matter how any rules the government passes, they don't matter if the people on the front lines don't follow up.

Myself? I'd love to own a handgun. I like shooting at ranges. Despite the blackness of Kevin's end, I still like guns and really don't mind gun ownership. My wife would rather we did not have a gun in the house (we have a 2 year old) and I'm happy to obey her wishes. But if I could get the okay to have a gun? I have no problems with jumping through hoops to get one. I just want everyone selling weapons to follow the rules set down for the good of us all.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


> hilarious trope that citizens with small arms are any kind of serious check against tyranny

Yeah, I'm sure those who deposed Gaddafi would get a real kick out of your contempt for them.
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 3:08 PM on July 20, 2012


People don't have to make a causal connection to be a statistic. I can imagine that some percentage of people will just be less in the mood to go see a movie after reading all about this than they might have otherwise been.

Good point. I still intend to go see TDKR this weekend, but it will be with considerably less enthusiasm. Going up to Sandia Crest and sitting with some nature with my wife for a while now seems like a much stronger contender for my Saturday afternoon than it was yesterday.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 3:08 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


OK, I want to apologize for this comment. I felt insulted by this value judgement made about me, and instead of taking a moment to stop and consider it calmly, I instead stooped to the other commenter's level. That was out of line, and I'm sorry.

However... if we're going to debate gun control, can we please acknowledge the unfairness of using feeling-based arguments to create value judgements about other people? You can paint me as a cold and heartless person for not getting emotionally overwrought by the "tragedy of the week." But if we're going to go there, let's be perfectly honest and admit that 95% of the people posting on this thread aren't going to remember a damn thing about this tragedy two years from now. It'll have been forgotten and totally eclipsed by the next tragedy. So sure, maybe I'm cold and heartless for limiting my emotional investment unless I'm sure I plan to care about something for decades. But honestly, I don't think disposable feelings that will be gone in a year or two are something to brag about either. So while I welcome an open flow of discussion or debate, I'd appreciate if we could be spared the hypocritical value judgements about other people's personal characters.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 3:10 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Another tragedy which Colorado's permissive gun laws failed to prevent. Typical NRA nonsense, why is it the only time these gun nuts have a gun is when they shoot their buddy accidentally while hunting or when a 6 year old is playing unsupervised. What is the point of living somewhere with permissive gun laws if the only outcome is that some kid gets shot by the neighborhood watchman for looking dangerous.
posted by humanfont at 3:10 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I'm sure those who deposed Gaddafi would get a real kick out of your contempt for them.

You think Gaddafi fell because of citizens with small arms and not constant NATO bombing?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:11 PM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


For what it's worth, I saw on reddit that a moviegoer had left the cinema by the exit door to take a phone call and left it open. Unconfirmed though, of course, so grain of salt etc.

If that's the case, I wonder more about potential accomplices rather than innocent coincidence. For this guy to be all armed and ready, he can't exactly afford to hang around for long periods of time hoping someone opens an exit door.

At this point I don't even care about pistols, I just want all automatic (and semi-automatic) rifles banned. I know the problem is that small changes to the weaponry means congress has to pass new laws to cover new weaponry-- but wouldn't a blanket ban work? Why does the NRA insist that hunters and sportsmen need automatic rifles?

I think this is a common gulf between gun owners and non-gun owners. Gun owners want efficient weapons that require them carrying little additional equipment. Personally, I'm most comfortable with about a twenty-round magazine. Admittedly, it's partially because I gained most of my familiarity on military equipment, but it's also because that means you have to carry far less bulky magazines and spend far less time on reloading.

I don't hunt, but if I did, I would assume that you would need more ammo, not less, for a few reasons: first of which that you're shooting a moving target that you absolutely need to kill quickly. If you only wound it, you are condemning an animal to die slowly, its meat utterly wasted. You are pointlessly killing an animal for no purpose. Thus, you need to be able to shoot several more rounds quickly if you miss the first shot. (Especially as many people want to limit scopes, that allow you to take the first shot accurately and well.)

Is there a real reason one needs to be able to wander into Walmart or the local gun store and buy such bullets? Or am I woefully misunderstanding some property of movie theatre walls and/or bullets?

You are woefully misunderstanding some property of walls and bullets. Cheaply made walls, in particular, are not very solid - they're often built around a frame of wood or metal, but with drywall on top - which you can punch through if you're not careful. Bullets - any bullets - can go through these very easily. Bullets can go through car doors as well. They can punch through most substances that are used in modern cheap construction.
posted by corb at 3:12 PM on July 20, 2012


Waiting in line for Batman at the moment. Got here about an hour early concerned about getting a good seat, but right now it's just me and one other dude. Maybe it'll pick up soon, maybe the real enthusiast went last night, or maybe after last night people aren't as eager.
posted by Atreides at 3:13 PM on July 20, 2012


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?

I live in Denver.

The only thing that might scare me out of going to a movie in the near future is fear of the gun nuts who will be trying to sneak in their guns "for self-defense."


Our local wingnuts on the Denver Post public forums are out in force saying that the only reasonable and logical course of action right now is for everyone to buy a gun and get a concealed carry permit so they can be armed everywhere, at all times. Yes, everywhere, at all times - church, school, work, vacation, grocery shopping, playground, movie theaters.
posted by caryatid at 3:17 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


OWS spinoff Black Bloc

Media hysteria notwithstanding, "black bloc" refers to a tactic, not an actual organization, that predates OWS by at least 20 years.
posted by kengraham at 3:20 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Poor Jessica Ghawi. She just missed being in one random shooting, and then got killed in another. That's incredibly bad luck.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:21 PM on July 20, 2012


What has been more successful in preventing or quelling, or exposing, police brutality over time? The Panthers? Or civil liberties attorneys, non-violent protestors, civilians armed with video cameras, shapers of public opinion, etc.?

I wasn't defending the panthers, and I wrote all about how I disapprove of such tactics. My post was simply about how not all rhetoric about arms as social-justice-devices or checks on state power or whatever is McVeighian loony rhetoric, even if I disagree with it. No need to froth.
posted by kengraham at 3:27 PM on July 20, 2012


Are you arguing in favor of legalizing explosives for general use and home defense, or what? I'm asking, because that's what it sounds like from my end.

How do you interpret my post as arguing in favour of legalizing anything? I said, explicitly (actually, in two comments) that I pretty much categorically disapprove of gun ownership. What the fuck are you even talking about, that it sounds from "your end" like kengraham is advocating "home defense explosives"?

Can we get some nuance-appreciation in here, or are we all going to just ban metaphorical costumes?
posted by kengraham at 3:32 PM on July 20, 2012


Why, with the power of free speech and tactics that have proven effective over time in the courts and elsewhere, in an open system (for all its many, many faults), does anyone need to argue, "Hey, we need this, 'cause look how small explosives and arms have kept the military busy in Afghanistan and Iraq," and then argue that this overrides the safety of everyone else?

No one here is saying that, unless I've missed something. There was a claim that citizens with small arms are useless against a formal military, and it was pointed out that events in the last decade would suggest differently.

The problem is that the methods being suggested here (gun control of a UK variety, say) would be a great way to lower the epidemic of gun violence affecting poor, urban neighborhoods. It would not, however, be a particularly effective way to avoid this kind of crazy attack, particularly by someone with the resources and social capital to (with time and patience) become a legal gun owner even under more restrictive rules. You prevent that by fixing whatever it is that is broken in US society that makes so many young men look to violence as a solution, and not be able to get the mental health assistance that they probably need.

It's been claimed a couple of times that the 1990s assault weapon ban would have prevented this, but all that did was prevent new sales. All during the duration of the ban you could still buy whatever you wanted on the used market, and there were cheap and mostly legal workarounds, too, like buying an SKS or other rifle manufactured before the ban, or that lacked the specific features that were banned. Prices were definitely higher because of constricted supply, but hardly stratospheric; a normal middle class person could still buy those kinds of guns during the ban.
posted by Forktine at 3:33 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Another tragedy which Colorado's permissive gun laws failed to prevent. Typical NRA nonsense, why is it the only time these gun nuts have a gun is when they shoot their buddy accidentally while hunting or when a 6 year old is playing unsupervised. What is the point of living somewhere with permissive gun laws if the only outcome is that some kid gets shot by the neighborhood watchman for looking dangerous.

FWIW, the US rep for that district has been fighting for more gun control and was pretty upset (in both emotional senses) this morning.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:35 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


In addition to the gas mask, he wore body armor and a helmet and was dressed completely in black. His gear included a throat protector, a groin protector, a bulletproof vest and leggings, and tactical gloves.

The idea of a theater full of armed patrons trying to shoot back at this guy through the smoke makes my stomach drop more than he does.
posted by argonauta at 3:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


The idea of a theater full of armed patrons trying to shoot back at this guy through the smoke makes my stomach drop more than he does.

Seriously. Can all the "an armed society is a polite society" guys all go live on their own island please, so the rest of us don't get hit by stray bullets?
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 3:42 PM on July 20, 2012 [24 favorites]


Like I said, the guy who stopped the Cafe Racer shooter stopped him with a chair. Clearly cinemas need to unbolt their chairs from the floor.
posted by Artw at 3:42 PM on July 20, 2012


My Facebook feed is chock full of people posting motivational poster-type meme-screeds about how the "gun grabbers" are coming because of this incident, and about how it's an Obama plot tied into Eric Holder's involvement in the Fast and Furious affair. Is anybody else getting this, too?
posted by vibrotronica at 3:42 PM on July 20, 2012


There was a claim that citizens with small arms are useless against a formal military, and it was pointed out that events in the last decade would suggest differently.

With cases involving improvised explosives in Iraq and Afghanistan, NATO-airpower-and-US-covert-consultant-backed fighting by rebels in Libya, and the Black Panthers in the United States. I am not making this up.
posted by raysmj at 3:44 PM on July 20, 2012


I removed all those people from my Facebook thing months ago.
posted by shakespeherian at 3:44 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


Is anybody else getting this, too?

I'm not getting that, but I'm getting pictures of a sad looking Batman in front of an American flag with a caption that reads "7/20 - Remember." God, the 21st century is weird.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:45 PM on July 20, 2012 [19 favorites]


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?

I went to the movies last night. At the exact time that the shooter was making his final preparations in Colorado, I was in Brooklyn sitting in a pitch-dark movie theatre.

I had plans to see another movie this weekend. I may still go. But it just doesn't feel good, somehow. Not because I'm afraid of copycat shootings or anything. Or because I'm making some irrational assumption that movie theaters are dangerous places.

It's just too close. What used to be a fun diversion, an escape from reality and my hot apartment for a couple hours, now has this absurd connection to tragedy. It's a little like if someone said, "Hey now, who wants to go for a drive?" the day after the Kennedy assassination.

I'm not afraid to go to the movies. I just suddenly don't feel like going to the movies. As I type this in the production office of a movie. Where I sit next to several people who were involved in the production of The Dark Knight Rises. This is my livelihood. It's one of the things I've loved the most since childhood. And yet I'd kind of rather just go home and drink.
posted by Sara C. at 3:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


I don't care what you call any rifle or gun. I just want people to tell me in what circumstance they envision themselves needing a gun like a Glock that shoot 30 bullets to "defend themselves" against home invasion or a mugging.

For people who want to know why you need a high capacity magazine for self defense, here's an answer from a law enforcement agent.

And saying 'Okay, rich people, have all the guns you want, but we'll make sure the proles can't afford them' is kind of fucked up, but ignore that for a second.)

I think we need to not ignore that, even for a second.

Ridiculous. It's much easier to walk into a theater with a completely legal loaded gun or two, plus backup magazines and kill 14 people than it would be with a knife or bomb.

It is way, way easier to kill mass amounts of people in a crowded room with a bomb than with almost any kind of firearm.

Gun laws in NYC are fairly reasonable. I owned a hunting rifle there and registration took some time, but it was not a huge deal at all and there are two rifle ranges in NYC city limits that are open for members of the public to join

Please tell me you're kidding. Applying for a premises permit costs close to 400$, and it is next to impossible to get a concealed carry permit. Those rifle ranges you mention, you have to have a NYC rifle permit to join, don't you? And not to mention all of those rifles have to meet the now-defunct assault weapons ban standards?

NYC is where gun sanity goes to die.

But is it really that crazy to argue for a maximum of two guns per person, stronger background checks, longer waiting times, and for the banning of automatic rifles?

Yes. Two guns a person? Which two guns? Different guns have different uses. A pistol is not a rifle is not a shotgun. What about target shooting? Different guns have different effects at different ranges and for different purposes. Hunting is not self defense.
posted by corb at 3:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


With Jessica Redfield in particular (I haven't seen much yet about the other victims), it's especially poignant having seen her very last last tweet while waiting in line, her lively spirit during an interview, and narrow escape from another mass shooting in Toronto just over a month earlier. It's unspeakably saddening being made more real; and while this happened physically far away, feels close to home. This could have been a friend...a sister. There are 11 others with similar stories, dreams, friends, and families. All people just like anyone else we all know and love. Their lives were cut short today by senslessness cruelty, and disregard for human life...

I think there's a place for debates like those above me. I hope we get it all figured out someday. My last contribution to this thread is one of respect, regards, and sadness for those that are no longer with us. Rest in peace.

.
posted by samsara at 3:53 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]




I am not making this up.

To the extent that you're talking about my mention of the Black Panthers (and AIM, and the incident in Keizer's essay), you are making this up, because that's not what I was talking about. It's like you pick the emotionally loaded keywords out of comments and ignore the rest, because I was giving examples where although obviously citizens with small arms are ineffective against modern militaries, and therefore the stuff about "overthrowing tyranny" is ridiculous, there are incidents in which it could be argued* that specific small collections of people have used violence or the threat thereof to defend themselves against oppressive activities by specific small collections of people. That you think this means I agree with the paranoid "they're coming to take our guns" rhetoric means that you didn't read the whole comment, and the fact that you got all snarky, regardless, is a shitty fact.

*Not even necessarily by me! I even said I am not in favour of such tactics, just that I don't condemn people whose motivations I don't understand very well.
posted by kengraham at 3:53 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Is anybody else getting this, too?

Nope. I unfriend those people at the first sign of wingnuttery.
posted by caryatid at 3:56 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


What essay about the Black Panthers? I'm only responding to a listing of their efforts against police brutality listed as an example, with no link to an essay. It's not remotely snarky to say that civil liberties attorney and other societal effects had a vastly greater effect on quelling and preventing police brutality against black people. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 led to the hiring of more black officers over time, y'know. But if you want to argue that the Black Panthers acted in a vacuum, by all means go ahead.
posted by raysmj at 4:01 PM on July 20, 2012


I removed all those people from my Facebook thing months ago

People I am not even friends with are tagging these images with what looks like the names of everyone on their friend lists, so I am seeing propaganda with "Suzi Q. Was tagged in this pic along with 500 others". I didn't even know it was possible to game Facebook like that.
posted by vibrotronica at 4:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Or you don't want to address the effect of non-violent protests that led to the Civil Rights Act, etc., fine, argue with yourself.
posted by raysmj at 4:02 PM on July 20, 2012


I'm not afraid to go to the movies. I just suddenly don't feel like going to the movies.

the (awesome) Wes Anderson movie came out right around the same time there was some news about a boy who was kidnapped in my neighborhood when I was a child. The news got me thinking about him and what might have happened, and the movie had references - very light, but, a search, worried parents - to missing kids. I didn't want that association, so I put off seeing the movie for a week or two until it could just be awesome again.

Obviously it wasn't a fear thing. It just seemed like it could make something that I wanted to be good feel a little heart-sinking. Better to just go out for dinner.
posted by mdn at 4:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's telling that the @NRA, @NRAnews, the @FriendsofNRA, and the @NRAblog twitter feeds have been eerily silent for roughly the last 24 hours.
posted by crunchland at 4:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Is there anything they could say which wouldn't be jumped on as either callous or self-serving? Seems like silence is the best thing they can do.
posted by Justinian at 4:08 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


It's telling that the @NRA, @NRAnews, the @FriendsofNRA, and the @NRAblog twitter feeds have been eerily silent for roughly the last 24 hours.

If anyone posted this here already, I missed it: "Good morning, shooters. Happy Friday! Weekend plans?"


posted by hermitosis at 4:08 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Please do not start a Libya derail. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:08 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


mdn, that's the very movie I saw last night.
posted by Sara C. at 4:09 PM on July 20, 2012


Shooter believed to have Adult Friend Finder profile under the name, classicjimbo. The age, dyed red hair, and hometown of Aurora, CO match descriptions of the shooter. The profile, dated July 5, 2012, has the eerie tagline: "Will you visit me in prison?"
posted by jonp72 at 4:11 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?

We're a nation that agreed we should all take off our shoes before we get on airplanes because some moron tried to set his Keds on fire.


Nineteen Saudis did 9-11, now we have the TSA exploring the genitals of American grandmothers, 2 wars against non-Saudis, and we continue to buy Saudi oil. If you told me the Entertainment Security Administration was going to start feeling up movie patrons, why would I be surprised?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:13 PM on July 20, 2012 [20 favorites]


Your comment reads like an NRA brochure. No reasoning, but plenty of emotion, racist dog whistles, and appeals to patriotism. Thank god people like you are keeping the country safe.

OmieWise, why do you keep accusing people of racism or racist dog whistles for supporting gun rights? The person who wrote that didn't so much as mention race once in her statement.

Okay, I have a question - TWICE now in this thread I've seen people say that they would have a problem with "the government" coming to "confiscate their weapons". Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?

EmpressCallipygos: Many police departments, including the NYPD, reserve the right to come and take legally obtained weapons if gun control laws are later passed that limit the calibre or type of weapons permissable.
posted by corb at 4:14 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


What essay about the Black Panthers? I'm only responding to a listing of their efforts against police brutality listed as an example, with no link to an essay.


The listing of the Black Panthers was in response to a request for a more recent example than the one given in an earlier-quoted essay.

It's not remotely snarky to say that civil liberties attorney and other societal effects had a vastly greater effect on quelling and preventing police brutality against black people.

It's also not what's being discussed.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 led to the hiring of more black officers over time, y'know. But if you want to argue that the Black Panthers acted in a vacuum, by all means go ahead.

I don't, and didn't, want to argue any such thing. Asserting that A is effective is different from asserting that A is more effective than B, or that A is the most effective thing, and moreover, I didn't even assert that A (the Black Panthers's tactics) were effective. I merely made a point that the fantasy image of a bunch of armed citizens squaring off with the government, or whatever those folks in the Tea Party picture upthread dream about, is not the only lens through which to interpret the idea (that I do not even endorse!) that perhaps an armed citizenry is a check on power.

Also, I haven't advocated any type of policy of any sort in this thread, so I don't know where you get the slanderous "legalize explosives" hyperbole. I said that I don't think people should have guns and that I don't think the government necessarily has the moral authority to regulate guns, especially since that regulation is implictly at gunpoint. That doesn't mean I advocate any laws, or obey or disobey any laws, about guns or otherwise. It's just, like, my opinion, man.
posted by kengraham at 4:15 PM on July 20, 2012


Yeah, count me as another person who understands why you wouldn't want to go to the movies after this. It's not even really a fear thing, except for that niggling, irrational little fear that you can't help. It's just that this movie is not going to be anywhere near as enjoyable as it might have been before a dozen people were murdered while watching it. And considering this is Nolan's grimdark Batman franchise, it wasn't exactly going to be sunshine and rainbows and delightful improbable villains anyway. I'm still going tonight, because someone has already bought me a ticket, and fuck if I'm going to let this asshole win in any appreciable way, but I frankly don't think I'll ever be able to think about the movie without thinking of the shooting, and the movie's inevitable violence is going to be really unpleasant.
posted by yasaman at 4:18 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


We’ve Seen This Movie Before - Roger Ebert

Should this young man — whose nature was apparently so obvious to his mother that, when a ABC News reporter called, she said “You have the right person” — have been able to buy guns, ammunition and explosives? The gun lobby will say yes. And the endless gun control debate will begin again, and the lobbyists of the National Rifle Association will go to work, and the op-ed thinkers will have their usual thoughts, and the right wing will issue alarms, and nothing will change. And there will be another mass murder.

That James Holmes is insane, few may doubt. Our gun laws are also insane, but many refuse to make the connection. The United States is one of few developed nations that accepts the notion of firearms in public hands. In theory, the citizenry needs to defend itself. Not a single person at the Aurora, Colo., theater shot back, but the theory will still be defended.

posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:21 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


It's also not what's being discussed.

Huh? What's being discussed is a shooting in a movie theater and by association all responses to it, not what you brought to the discussion per se.
posted by raysmj at 4:32 PM on July 20, 2012


the legal establishment tasked with determining his "sanity" would have had a strong political interest in pronouncing him "mentally ill" in order to discredit his writings which, viewed separately from his heinous acts, raise serious questions that connect to issues with which we as a society for real have to contend.

Oh, please. His screed was sufficiently long and complicated that 99% of the world would never be able to read it, and was automatically discredited when he became a mad bomber. If you really think the "legal establishment" would read his stuff and quake in their boots, "Our existential basis is put in question, we must suppress this!" you have a very exaggerated opinion of the quantity of self-questioning that goes on in the "legal establishment".

As for gun control in America, this is as good a time to talk about it as ever - which is to say it's a complete waste of time as always (except in a few areas of the US which are on the edge, let me know where I can send money) because it will never happen.

A plurality of Americans are in love with guns, and literally nothing anyone says will ever convince them otherwise. Americans love their violent films, they love their guns, and they love their wars. I'm sure a lot of mefites are responsible gun owners, a category which includes present and past friends of mine, but you aren't the people I'm worried about.

Consider the following:

1. America has had soldiers fighting in some foreign country or other continuously for over 70 years.
2. American spends about as much money on weapons as all other countries put together - more than any country in history.
3. America has a higher murder rate than any other first world country.
4. America has more people incarcerated than any other country (and has a higher incarceration rate than any other first world country).

America is by far the largest and most powerful military force in the history of the planet and has an unprecedented number of weapons in private ownership as well - and these weapons aren't for show, they are being used, aggressively and often.

It is simple as this: America loves war, weapons and violence. They are proud of being the strongest, and they're going to show everyone else.

This has gotten much worse since I was a child, when Presidents at least pretended that peace was a good thing - now no one does that, both political parties compete to see how belligerent they can appear.

I unfortunately expect to see increasingly many shootings like this in the future, as life becomes increasingly unlivable for your average American, but I don't expect that will affect America's long affair with weapons and warfare at all...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:38 PM on July 20, 2012 [23 favorites]


Huh? What's being discussed is a shooting in a movie theater and by association all responses to it, not what you brought to the discussion per se.

Okay. More precisely: it's not related to the point that was being advanced by that example, and it's disingenuous, and also weird, to respond to the things that people say as though they held specific views, when they explicitly disavowed those views.

I know that civil rights lawyers are important, and that the Civil Rights Act has made a large difference to many people, especially in comparison to the Black Panthers' armed activities, but I'm not sure why you injected those things into a discussion that is not about those things, to answer claims nobody ever made. I'm also not sure why you insinuate that people who explicitly state that they don't support tactics involving weapons, and who explicitly state that they are opposed to gun ownership, of thinking that explosives should be unregulated. Why did you say that?
posted by kengraham at 4:43 PM on July 20, 2012


Mod note: raysmj, kengraham, now would be a good time to take your side conversation to memail.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:45 PM on July 20, 2012


In order to drive a car, you're required to hold insurance to pay for others injuries/losses due to an accident. Would a similar insurance structure work for guns? It seems so heartless that there's no system in place to at least pay for the victims medical bills, even if it can't restore their peace of mind.

FWIW in a previous MEFI thread I worked out that math. Here is an updated version:
  • To cover full the economic cost of the injuries and fatalities caused by guns in the U.S. would require an 'insurance rate' of $448 per gun per year or $4.48 per bullet purchased.
  • Something more comparable what we pay for automobile insurance--with limited medical expenses, limited pain and suffering reimbursement, and so on--would be more like $44 per gun per year or $.44 per bullet purchased.*
I think it is an interesting idea.
  • It goes along with the general American ideas that you can do whatever you like but if your choices end up injuring others you have to take personal responsibility for the consequences.
  • Taxpayers currently end up paying about half of the medical costs of firearm injuries--just over a billion dollars per year. The American taxpayer is subsidizing gun owners, and American taxpayers just hate that. The last thing we need is "gun welfare" and "socialist gun ownership policies"--gun owners should pay their own way, not ride on the coattails of the American taxpayer!
  • And if you're not really interested enough in your gun to pay its annual gun insurance premium, then just turn it in and problem solved for everyone. I'll wager than gun ownership would go down a lot with even the $44 annual gun insurance requirement.
Also you'd find insurance companies putting the kinds of restrictions on gun ownership and use, simply on a rational economic basis, that no one dares approach in the current U.S. political climate.

* These figures are based the figure of 223 million guns in the U.S., the WAG of 100/bullets fired per gun per year, 32,538 annual U.S. firearms deaths and 2X as many nonfatal firearms injuries, the figure of $100 billion in total economic costs for firearm injuries and fatalities (p. 19), and assuming $150,000 average insurance payout per fatality and $75,000 per injury. Obviously there is some WAGging in there but it gives a general idea of what total societal costs are and how much they would be if spread equally per firearm.
posted by flug at 4:48 PM on July 20, 2012 [63 favorites]


"of thinking" ----> "think".
posted by kengraham at 4:48 PM on July 20, 2012


I've actually long thought that treating guns in a similar way to how we treat cars (universal registration, mandatory insurance, test for licensing, etc.) would be an excellent step in the right direction.
posted by kyrademon at 4:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


There is not a single action in our nation's history where the government regulated or otherwise altered the rights to do or not do something--vote, earn, possess weaponry, make children work, own people, limit driving speed, not dump poison into the water, etc. etc--that in its effect inconvenienced the life of a person who thoroughly enjoyed their prior ability to do said thing.

This is absolutely not true, especially when it comes to gun laws. For example, I had to give all of my guns to someone else, thus losing any ability to enjoy them, when I left the military and came back home to New York.

In the aftermath of Columbine, my school took the bold step of outlawing trench coats on campus. When a kid did show up with a trench coat, he was suspended and sent into counseling.


Oh, god, I remember that. I had to remove my trench coat because someone had shot up Columbine. So stupid. Trench coats, especially wool ones, are warm and useful.

Taxpayers currently end up paying about half of the medical costs of firearm injuries--just over a billion dollars per year. The American taxpayer is subsidizing gun owners, and American taxpayers just hate that. The last thing we need is "gun welfare" and "socialist gun ownership policies"--gun owners should pay their own way, not ride on the coattails of the American taxpayer!

I believe gun owners would argue that taxowners simply shouldn't pay the medical costs of firearm injuries - or indeed, many would argue that taxpayers shouldn't pay the medical costs of anyone's injuries.
posted by corb at 4:55 PM on July 20, 2012


I don't think violent movies have much to do with actual violence. (IE: Japan) Like it says in the Ebert editorial, it's not like this guy actually saw the movie. The theatre was just a place where he could find a lot of victims.
posted by Kevin Street at 4:57 PM on July 20, 2012


Wow, raysmj, you seem to have totally misunderstood kengraham's comment from the getgo and are arguing with him about things he hasn't actually said. He's never said a thing like the "gun-toting route would have been preferable". You are the one who brought up illegal explosives, not kengraham. And he has replied multiple times in this thread that he was not advocating violence. Seriously, WTF?
posted by oneirodynia at 5:00 PM on July 20, 2012


The explosives was in reference to a statement someone made above re IEDs and small arms of that sort. And explicit statement was made about them.
posted by raysmj at 5:12 PM on July 20, 2012


And the killer could have been a friend and a brother. The deaths of good people we don't know have as much proximity to us as that. We just choose to consider ourselves part of the better narrative.

It's not quite like that, and I was hoping that'd be my last comment here. Sure, I'm affected by the person I currently know more about. And when expressing empathy, of course it is with the victim of a violent crime. The difference in proximity is undoubtly that the shooter is still alive. There's a human element that reminds me of friends and family I know that are very close to me. For the shooter, currently he is as relevant as the guns he carried...and as I don't have any, I can't relate them as possibly being "my guns." I can't relate to the chairs in the theater as being the chairs in my theater. Nor do I want to. It's not that I'm choosing the better narrative...I'm sure if he has relatives I'll relate to their experiences and pain as well. I'm rather expressing a form of sympathy that realizes the fragility of life is the same for everyone, even those close to me that have been around as long as I remember. As I recently lost someone close to me, it is especially a poignant realization. The comment that I'm simply choosing the better narrative somewhat belittled the entire sentiment I was trying to express.
posted by samsara at 5:13 PM on July 20, 2012


.
posted by Skygazer at 5:19 PM on July 20, 2012


This guy is still alive. Presumably we'll know what his motivation was at some point. I think one of the major contributing factors to having all of these spree killers recently is the economic situation. How many have their been since 2008? Seems like a ton. This guy was a PhD dropout. Likely he had very few job prospects going on.

What weird me out about his target is that he may not have had any 'message' or 'cause' at all. He didn't shoot up his university to "get back" at them for making him a failure. Maybe he just wanted to draw as much attention and notoriety to himself as possible.

Also you have some of these idiotic "real life superheroes" running around these days. I wonder if he wanted to be a "real life supervillan" - if in his mind this was just some kind of, like, extreme cosplay merging the worlds of fantasy and reality. Seriously fucked up.

(In fact, now I'm reading he was calling himself the Joker - so yeah, sounds like he was a deranged 'fan' acting out his fantasy. Seriously fucked up)
Absolutely it is. Thinking that gun control will keep guns out of the hands of criminals is very similar to thinking that drug control means they'll never be able to get high.

We're already at war with ourselves about drugs, which is a VERY great deal of why America is such a dangerous place. Do you really want to increase the tension, instead of decreasing it? People having guns is not a problem. It's only using them that's a problem.
Sure, criminals may still have access to guns, But they may not want them. A typical criminal is a rational actor trying to make money by selling drugs, stealing TVs, etc. If the penalty for getting caught is higher with a gun, they may chose to go without one. Lots of people break the law in the UK and guns are very, very rare because they would vastly increase the penalties if caught. And, if you know other criminals are unlikely to have a gun then you don't need one either. Turf wars between gangs can always be resolved with knives and baseball bats.

The other problem is that when you compare guns and drugs, lots of otherwise normal, law abiding people buy and enjoy drugs. But why would they want an illegal gun? It would do nothing for them just sitting there. Going to a shooting range wouldn't be an option. Unless they were going to shoot someone, they wouldn't need it, and it wouldn't be worth the risk. With drugs, small amounts are really easy to conceal.

There's no doubt that a spree killer would love to get their hands on gernades, RPGs, anti-aircraft weapons, chemical weapons (beyond teargas), and highly radioactive compounds if they could. But those things are illegal. But because no one who isn't a deranged madman or a terrorist organization wants any of those things, there isn't any underground market at all. Ordinary, everyday people want illegal drugs, and that is what fuels the underground market.

If guns were illegalized in the US, you'd see a much, much smaller illegal gun market then the illegal drug market. The demand just wouldn't be there, the way it's not there for nuclear weapons.
No doubt, but in the US, there are also more white men than POC men.
In the age range of spree killers, I don't think there are that many more white men then non-white men.
Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) said Friday that the shootings that took place in an Aurora, Colo. movie theater hours earlier were a result of "ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs" and questioned why nobody else in the theater had a gun to take down the shooter.
Louie Gohmert is the same guy who thought Muslim terrorist women might be sneaking into the US to have "Terror Babies". He's clearly an idiot.

But the whole idea of "If they were just armed, they could have shot back" is so fucking stupid. Clearly this guy was ready to die. He was wearing ballistic armor. In order for someone to shoot him they would have had to stand up, take aim in the midst of all that tear gas and gotten off a clean shot, through the armor, while the shooter himself would have had plenty of time to fire off multiple rounds from his semi-auto at the person trying to shoot him. It just would not have worked at all.
With regard to the shooting itself: it does not shock me. Back in 2007 one of the Freakonomics authors asked "If You Were a Terrorist, How Would You Attack?" It was linked on MeFi as well. I emailed the author with my suggestion, which was an opening night coordinated attack on movie theaters using readily-available semi-automatic weapons. I speculated that the likely response would be mandated airport-style security at theaters and a tremendous amount of economic damage to the movie industry. Since this was only a single attack and may not have been politically motivated (we'll see), I don't know what the fallout will be like.
You'll never have TSA style bullshit at the theater. People will just stay home and watch movies on DVD or Netflix. There are lots of people who chose not to fly nearly as often in order to avoid the TSA but there's no other option if you want to get across the country quickly.
....Why WOULD they? What in your background is making you think you would be prevented from owning a gun after you undergo a background check?
What would have prevented this guy or any of the other spree killers from doing the same thing? Most of them have no criminal records. Sometimes they're obviously disturbed (like the VTech shooter) but this guy seems to have seemed pretty normal. So what kind of policy could you possibly put in place that would prevent spree killings? Normal everyday gun violence, maybe. But as far as spree killing goes it seems like you would have to ban guns entirely.
I like what happened on Something Awful. They made argument about gun control in that thread a bannable offense.
Well, you must be a pretty big fan of the status quo if you want to ban people from even talking about changing it.
posted by delmoi at 5:24 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


XQUZYPHYR: "I said that the 1994 assault weapons ban legally banned the sale of both AR-15 rifles and extended ammunition magazines, both of which the suspect legally acquired at a store because Congress did not renew it. Had the law still been in place, he would not have been able to do this."

Except it didn't. It banned detachable magazine fed semi-automatic rifles with two or more of the following, folding or telescoping stock, pistol grip, bayonet mount, flash suppressor/threaded barrel or Grenade launcher.
In 1995 you could still walk into any gun shop and buy an AR-15. As for extended capacity magazine, anything manufactured before 1994 was totally legal to sell. And since the AR-15 (and AK47 style rifles) were based on military rifles exempt surplus magazines were cheap and plentiful.
posted by the_artificer at 5:24 PM on July 20, 2012


Of course with this particular guy it might be a moot point. He clearly did have access to bombs, as his home is rigged to blow. But I think you can actually cause a lot more carnage with guns then you can with a small bomb. If he'd had a car bomb or something maybe he could have done a lot of damage to the theater, but if it was just something he was carrying, he probably couldn't have killed and injured as many people in the theater.

(also, it sounds like at a certain point he started shooting people in the legs, rather then the head)
posted by delmoi at 5:28 PM on July 20, 2012


I'm going to irresponsibly speculate that his actions are the result of methamphetamine psychosis resulting from abusing Adderal or ther popular "study drugs."
posted by humanfont at 5:29 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


If guns were illegalized in the US, you'd see a much, much smaller illegal gun market then the illegal drug market. The demand just wouldn't be there, the way it's not there for nuclear weapons.

From that comment, I was wondering if maybe you didn't live in the US, until I saw who you were. I guess you don't live in the same US I do, anyway. :-)

Right-wingers have been waiting for the government to come get their guns for freaking ever. You try that, and there will be blood in the streets. There will be mass insurrection if you try to take people's guns, potentially even a second civil war.

Totally not worth it. What holds this country together is mutual respect and tolerance, and if you refuse to tolerate people having guns, well, they're heavily armed, and they're not going to tolerate you trying to take them, or much of anything else you have to say, either.

Result: highly unpleasant.
posted by Malor at 5:30 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


.


I'm having a rough time processing all this, and I'm grateful for all the comments and links. The tone has been very respectful, and it reminds me why I'm a part of this forum. Thanks.

There's a lot that's been said about the gun control piece (I think we need more) and the mental health piece (the guy clearly needs some help). I've also been really struck by culture piece. It's remarkable to me that we live in a culture where one can say:

Poor Jessica Ghawi. She just missed being in one random shooting, and then got killed in another. That's incredibly bad luck.

I agree it's unbelievably bad luck, but there's something about this type of violence happening to someone twice that makes my stomach churn and inspires feelings of total helplessness. Does anyone else wondering where we're going with all this?

jbickers post really drove it home for me vividly - I have the same image of my son at an event like this in a few years, and the thought that it could become senselessly violent when it need not is devastating.

Cell phones in the pockets of dead children will continue to ring, indeed.
posted by Otherwise at 5:37 PM on July 20, 2012


Statement by Christopher Nolan:
"Speaking on behalf of the cast and crew of 'The Dark Knight Rises', I would like to express our profound sorrow at the senseless tragedy that has befallen the entire Aurora community. I would not presume to know anything about the victims of the shooting but that they were there last night to watch a movie. I believe movies are one of the great American art forms and the shared experience of watching a story unfold on screen is an important and joyful pastime. The movie theatre is my home, and the idea that someone would violate that innocent and hopeful place in such an unbearably savage way is devastating to me. Nothing any of us can say could ever adequately express our feelings for the innocent victims of this appalling crime, but our thoughts are with them and their families."
posted by BobbyVan at 5:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


Just a follow-up, AMC Theatres is not banning costumes, just full-face masks and prop weapons. Which I suppose is reasonable.

(although one of the great images I remember from seeing LotR Trilogy Tuesday was the two guys in full Ringwraith costumes who swept up to the snack bar and said, in Wraith hiss-voices, "Large popcorn, large Coke, bag of skittles".)
posted by mephron at 5:40 PM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


People seriously are going to avoid going the movies because of this?

I went this morning. Because fuck that guy.

The movie is really good.

It's hard to watch, though, knowing that at some time during it, a man started murdering audience members. But there is no reason to think there will be a rash of copycat killers going into theaters, and I was planning on seeing the movie today anyway.

I can't help but think of that awful image from Columbine of that poor boy with the broken arm climbing out a window to get to safety. I think this is why the horror of this event feels so profound -- because we know what it looks like. We know the awfulness of it.

I feel so bad for Jessica Ghawi just now. And for her family. I feel bad for everyone in that theater, and in that town.

I was the first to bring up mental illness. I don't regret doing it, and I have enormous sympathy for the experience of mental illness. I know it is sometimes a fatal illness, and that, in very rare circumstances, it can be fatal to other people. To my mind, it is like lightning striking. You don't blame the lightning. You just know these things something happen.

At the same time, you put up lightning rods. It is illegal for people with certain sorts of mental illnesses to obtain firearms. It's already law. Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter, had a documented history of mental health problems. It should have precluded him from buying weapons, and yet he had no problem.

I agree it's dual problems. The first is that we address mental health issues so badly -- it is stigmatized to the degree that mental health records often aren't shared or made public, and, even when diagnosed, many cannot afford the treatment they need. And then we have this all-or-nothing gun culture that will brook no compromise. There are laws on the books to keep the mentally ill from getting guns -- some created in response to Virginia Tech. They are widely ignored.

I don't know what the story is with this shooter. Maybe this was some hideous political statement. But if it does come out that there was unaddressed mental illness, I would prefer that this create the opportunity to discuss these dual failings.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 5:40 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Huffington Post has a "how you can help" page with links to different resources in Aurora.

Sorry if this has already been linked, but I was feeling overwhelmed and thought someone else might want to donate to one of these resources, too.
posted by dragonplayer at 5:44 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I agree it's unbelievably bad luck, but there's something about this type of violence happening to someone twice that makes my stomach churn and inspires feelings of total helplessness. Does anyone else wondering where we're going with all this?

Reminds me John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar. Future dystopia of an overpopulated world where among other concerns, there were muckers, people who would just go spontaneously violent in crowds, kill everyone they could.

Great book by the way. SPOILER ALERT. The thin hope it offers is that the human species will eventually evolve, develop enhanced empathic abilities. I like to think we're sort of doing that. Horrific as the events in Colorado are, if this was seventy years ago, we'd be right smack in the middle of WW2 with magnitudes more people being brutalized and killed every minute of every hour of every day for pretty much six solid years.
posted by philip-random at 5:49 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


The other problem is that when you compare guns and drugs, lots of otherwise normal, law abiding people buy and enjoy drugs. But why would they want an illegal gun? It would do nothing for them just sitting there. Going to a shooting range wouldn't be an option. Unless they were going to shoot someone, they wouldn't need it, and it wouldn't be worth the risk. With drugs, small amounts are really easy to conceal.

People would want an illegal gun for many of the same reasons they want legal ones: to protect themselves and their families. There will always be a market. It would absolutely be worth the risk for many, because they would weigh that possibly going to jail would be better than possibly losing their life to violence while they were unarmed.

But the whole idea of "If they were just armed, they could have shot back" is so fucking stupid. Clearly this guy was ready to die. He was wearing ballistic armor. In order for someone to shoot him they would have had to stand up, take aim in the midst of all that tear gas and gotten off a clean shot, through the armor, while the shooter himself would have had plenty of time to fire off multiple rounds from his semi-auto at the person trying to shoot him. It just would not have worked at all.

Does anyone have any stats or links to what type of ballistic armor he had? As someone familiar with ballistic armor, I have to say not all of it is the same. But they wouldn't have had to get a clean shot through the armor- they would have shot through the gas mask. Gas masks don't stop bullets, and head shots are generally kill shots.
posted by corb at 5:51 PM on July 20, 2012


But the whole idea of "If they were just armed, they could have shot back" is so fucking stupid. Clearly this guy was ready to die. He was wearing ballistic armor. In order for someone to shoot him they would have had to stand up, take aim in the midst of all that tear gas and gotten off a clean shot, through the armor, while the shooter himself would have had plenty of time to fire off multiple rounds from his semi-auto at the person trying to shoot him. It just would not have worked at all.

I do have my doubts that some random dude might have been able to stand up, aim, and take a shot, hitting the gunman in the gas mask and ending the tragedy, many folks who get the concealed carry permits are highly trained and exceptional shooters. Many are ex-military. If there were police in the theater at the time were was carrying, it's not unreasonable to think a highly trained officer couldn't have pulled this off.

We also need to stop using the words semi-automatic if we don't know what they mean. Pretty all guns with the exception of revolvers and pump action shotguns are semi-automatic weapons.

Does anyone have any stats or links to what type of ballistic armor he had? As someone familiar with ballistic armor, I have to say not all of it is the same.

I don't know, but I'm not sure that everyone realizes that if you are wearing ballistic armor, it's not like bullets bounce off of you like you're Superman. If someone shot him in the chest with a .357 magnum revolver at 25 feet, it would probably knock him down at the least, right?
posted by King Bee at 6:05 PM on July 20, 2012


humanfont, I don't get the allusion. He had dropped out of grad school some weeks previously.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:07 PM on July 20, 2012


People would want an illegal gun for many of the same reasons they want legal ones: to protect themselves and their families.

This is such bullshit fantasy.
posted by maxwelton at 6:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


The non-stop coverage of the booby-trapped apartment is doing nothing but making this guy's murders seem smarter. I was at the gym, trying to stop myself from glancing up at the captioned Anderson Cooper idiocy by thinking about that little kid in his Batman costume.

Fuck the breathless coverage of this guy's oh-so-brilliant plan to blow up his apartment and take a few cops with him. Just go back to normal programming with updates every hour if there's been any progress worth reporting, Anderson. Stop enabling this shit.
posted by mediareport at 6:08 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Option 1: Fail at life. Avoided by opposite sex. Flunk out of graduate school. Nobody notices you. Die in obscurity. Universe doesn't care. Total time other people spend thinking about you: 1000 hours.

Option 2: Kill lots of innocent people. Most talked about person in America. Obama and Chrtistopher Nolan are talking about you. Weird chicks writing you at prison every day; some cute. People write books about you/base entire careers around thinking about you. People talking about you long past your death. Total time other people spend thinking about you: 100000000-200000000 hours.
posted by dgaicun at 6:11 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


> People would want an illegal gun for many of the same reasons they want legal ones: to protect themselves and their families. It would absolutely be worth the risk for many, because they would weigh that possibly going to jail would be better than possibly losing their life to violence while they were unarmed.

A third possibility might be to stop living in fear. I'm always struck by how much terror and fear gun owners are always projecting to me - that they'd be defenseless without their weapons and that terrible things would happen to their kids.

In most places in the United States, the chances that people will inflict violence on you is actually very small, and it's not clear that the net effect of weapons really is to make you all on the balance safer, given that the fact that the United States is so much more violent than other first world countries and has so many more weapons. Remember, the most likely target of any given gun is its owner, and after that, the owner's family members...

If the area you live in is really so objectively dangerous, why do you live there? There are plenty of really nice places in the world where you aren't being threatened by your fellow citizens, and a lot of them have other benefits like universal health care too.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 6:11 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


I know a state trooper that was shot while wearing a bullet proof vest. I don't remember what he was shot with (a hand gun). He said he had the wind knocked out of him and he had a contusion like he'd been hit with a baseball bat. I'm not saying they are always like this, but he was put down by the bullet. The difference was he was able to get back up eventually.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:12 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Police cheif is on TV right now. He said he bought 6,000 bullets and a 100 round drum magazine.
I'm going to irresponsibly speculate that his actions are the result of methamphetamine psychosis resulting from abusing Adderal or ther popular "study drugs."
You're right, that's pretty irresponsible.
posted by delmoi at 6:13 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


If there were police in the theater at the time who were carrying

But there weren't. And the reason there weren't wasn't because of gun laws.

I don't see what laws could have been changed that would have effected whether or not a highly trained person with excellent marksmanship and crisis response skills happened to be in the theater that evening and happened to be carrying a weapon.

(I mean, yeah, the theater has a "no guns" policy, but I imagine that that's honored and enforced to the same extent the "no outside food" policy is honored, and in any case a currently serving cop would be likely to be allowed in if armed.)
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:16 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I don't know, but I'm not sure that everyone realizes that if you are wearing ballistic armor, it's not like bullets bounce off of you like you're Superman. If someone shot him in the chest with a .357 magnum revolver at 25 feet, it would probably knock him down at the least, right?

It hadn't occurred to me, but yes, people may not be aware of that fact. You are correct that even at higher levels, the amount of force is in fact some trauma. I personally wouldn't shoot for the body armor, but it's not like it would have been useless if people had.

I don't see what laws could have been changed that would have effected whether or not a highly trained person with excellent marksmanship and crisis response skills happened to be in the theater that evening and happened to be carrying a weapon.

We know that highly trained individuals with excellent marksmanship and crisis response skills happened to be in the theater. At least four of them. I wish they had been armed. I wish like hell they'd been armed.

(I mean, yeah, the theater has a "no guns" policy, but I imagine that that's honored and enforced to the same extent the "no outside food" policy is honored, and in any case a currently serving cop would be likely to be allowed in if armed.)

Enforced? Sure. But a lot of law-abiding citizens follow the rules whether or not they're enforced. Sure, some people sneak food in, but most don't. And I imagine most people would think that the no-guns policy was a lot more serious than the no-food policy.
posted by corb at 6:24 PM on July 20, 2012


King Bee : I do have my doubts that some random dude might have been able to stand up, aim, and take a shot, hitting the gunman in the gas mask and ending the tragedy, many folks who get the concealed carry permits are highly trained and exceptional shooters.

Seriously, a lot of CCWs take that right as a very serious responsibility... As in, several times a week, they practice El Presidente with a "Mozambique Tap".

And while a crowded theater certainly doesn't compare to a well-lit range... If we had 300 guys running through the same well-rehearsed drill, even if most of them missed, you would have had a fine red mist instead of a 2nd innocent corpse.
posted by pla at 6:25 PM on July 20, 2012


I live in a country* with a ban on drugs and guns. The difference in crime is noticeable. I like it that way. I don't think all guns should be banned in the U.S. but slippery slope arguments, and "it'll never work so why even try" arguments are harder to take seriously from here.

*It is vastly smaller than the US with less border issues...South Korea.
posted by nile_red at 6:26 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'm so glad that Wilder brought up the medical costs question, because I have been reading through the whole thread wanting to ask the same thing.
The US health system is just impossible to wrap your head around from outside. It seems so brutal, and now my heart has an extra layer of ache for the victims.
posted by Catch at 6:31 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Fuck the breathless coverage...
posted by mediareport at 21:08 on July 20


Eponysterical but true.

you would have had a fine red mist

Sometimes it seems like proponents of gun ownership for "personal defense" are excited at the prospect of being present at tragedies like this one. Perhaps I'm wrong, though, and there's some other reason why one might talk in a callous and hyperbolic way about people being shot.
posted by kengraham at 6:34 PM on July 20, 2012 [17 favorites]


People would want an illegal gun for many of the same reasons they want legal ones: to protect themselves and their families.
Except they'd be far, far more likely to be arrested and thrown in jail then end up in a situation where end up in a situation where they might need to defend themselves.

So it wouldn't be protection at all, in a practical sense. Owning an illegal gun would put them in serious danger of arrest. And they could substitute a taser or whatever as well.

Look, Drugs are illegal. And chemical weapons are illegal. It's easy to get drugs and it's impossible to get chemical weapons. That's because drugs are intrinsically enjoyable.

But while shooting at a shooting range might be fun. It isn't so much fun that people are willing to spend years in jail to do it in states where guns are more highly restricted.
I do have my doubts that some random dude might have been able to stand up, aim, and take a shot, hitting the gunman in the gas mask and ending the tragedy, many folks who get the concealed carry permits are highly trained and exceptional shooters. Many are ex-military. If there were police in the theater at the time were was carrying, it's not unreasonable to think a highly trained officer couldn't have pulled this off.
Oh please. Sure if you put actual batman in the actual theater, maybe he could have stopped it too! (Of course, he wouldn't have used a gun to do so). The fact that this guy wasn't shot has nothing to do with the theater's "no guns" policy (I mean, I've been to cinemark theaters before and I never even knew about the policy. People who carry guns around probably do bring them into the movies)

But it's such an absurd argument. The first argument was the whole "If more people were armed, they could have shot the gunman" But now they need to be "trained and exceptional shooters"? It's ridiculous. making gun laws more lax is not going to increase the number of "trained and exceptional shooters" in any given situation, totally ready to put down any spree shooters.

The problem I have with the gun rights nuts isn't the people who like to to the shooting range or hunt, it's people who think they totally need a gun in order to be "safe" walking around, going to the store, whatever. It's ridiculous. And situations like this really expose their rambo mentality. They honestly think that they can get into a gunfight with a guy with an AR-15 with a 100 round barrel clip and full body armor , including a helmet and a gasmask and win with a pistol, no armor and in a crowded theater full of tear gas.

Is it hypothetically possible? Sure, there's a chance that he might get off a lucky shot, but it would be much, much more likely that he'd just get shot while taking aim.

Or look at the Gabby Giffords thing: There were armed people nearby, but they weren't able to do anything.

I'm not even that anti-gun, really. But the argument that more people walking around with guns in any given situation will result in less death are delusional. What if George Zimmerman had had a Taser instead of a pistol? even if you believe everything he says a Taser would have done everything that he says he needed to do. And he wouldn't be facing the prospect of life in prison, let alone the loss suffered by Martin's family.

I'm just saying the whole "if more people had guns, this wouldn't have happened" thing is based on nothing but action-movie fueled fantasies.
posted by delmoi at 6:34 PM on July 20, 2012 [49 favorites]


honored and enforced to the same extent the "no outside food" policy is honored

I'm pretty sure the "no guns" policy is honored more often by the people who might happen to have a permit to carry, because the penalty is normally pretty bad if you are found to have a gun where you're not supposed to have a gun (go to jail, lose the permit, lose all your guns, probably fired from your job, etc.). I don't know about the people who carry in public illegally. My belief is that gun are not regularly present in theaters.

I know for a fact that my local theaters all have the "no concealed weapons" signs. I don't take my concealed gun to a movie theater (or pretty much anywhere, honestly).
posted by timfinnie at 6:40 PM on July 20, 2012


If we had 300 guys running through the same well-rehearsed drill, even if most of them missed, you would have had a fine red mist instead of a 2nd innocent corpse.

Because certainly any bullets that missed would have been contained within the theatre and would not, say, pass through the walls and hit anyone else.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:41 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


even if most of them missed, you would have had a fine red mist instead of a 2nd innocent corpse

What??

Didn't we already establish that bullets went through the walls and hit people in the adjacent theaters? Not to mention that the idea that he could have been stopped between his first and second shots sounds like some kind of superhero fantasy.
posted by argonauta at 6:42 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Again, you can't pass a law that makes people bring guns to a theater. You can't pass a law saying that private businesses aren't allowed to have "no guns" policies.

Colorado already has very easy-to-obtain concealed carry permits. What other laws that would be Constitutional would have increased the likelihood that there would have been an armed, skilled person among the theater?
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:45 PM on July 20, 2012


Tragic news today as Hero #1 was mistaken for a second shooter by Hero #2, who was immediately shot by Hero #3 who knew what was going on, who was shot by Hero #4 who had just arrived on the scene, who was then shot by police.
posted by gerryblog at 6:46 PM on July 20, 2012 [37 favorites]


The Body Count - Roger Ebert on the price of guns.
posted by Artw at 6:48 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Felons can't buy body armor either. I just think that's interesting.

As to the a highly trained person could have yadda yadda I would point out that a trained person would shoot for center mass. It might have put the guy down. Might not have. Dark, smokey, chaotic. Even military elite would have had a hard time making that shot stick.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


I think these types of arguments just increase the divide. I look at them and am shocked and horrified by so many people who want to take away people's rights to carry. I imagine many pro-control folks are also horrified by those of us who want to have competent weapons.

But this whole "the aliens are talking" bit makes us less and less willing to listen to each other.
posted by corb at 6:50 PM on July 20, 2012


timfinnie, I don't know about Colorado, but in Ohio if you bring a gun into a private business that says "no guns" they can refuse service and eject you from the premises, but there's no criminal repercussions---you're in violation of the business's policies, not of the law. It's only a misdemeanor if you refuse to leave.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:51 PM on July 20, 2012


This isn't TV. A normal person -- not an army sniper, just someone who maybe hangs out at the gun range every so often -- isn't going to take down a heavily armored person in a darkened movie theater with a single shot, especially after the other frightened people start screaming and running. This whole argument is completely deranged.
posted by gerryblog at 6:53 PM on July 20, 2012 [16 favorites]


"Armed Giffords hero nearly shot wrong man."

"I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready," he explained on Fox and Friends. "I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this." Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. "And that's who I at first thought was the shooter," Zamudio recalled. "I told him to 'Drop it, drop it!'"

But the man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter.

posted by gerryblog at 6:54 PM on July 20, 2012 [28 favorites]


I don't want to take away anyone's right to carry. The people in that theater who were adults who weren't felons had the right to carry. I'm saying the right to carry isn't a panacea, and that this tragedy has nothing to do with right to carry laws.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:54 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


gerryblog has it in a nutshell.

There have been plenty of public spree killings in the USA over the years, and I can't personally recall any that were stopped by heroic gun-toting citizens. Of course, I could be wrong.
posted by Existential Dread at 6:57 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I don't want to eliminate rights to own or even carry guns. I honestly don't. I just think that the "buckaroo" mentality that makes some people think that they could've/would've downed this guy in a split second only encourages an enthrallment with gun power and gun violence that is not a net positive thing.
posted by argonauta at 7:00 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Seriously, a lot of CCWs take that right as a very serious responsibility... As in, several times a week, they practice El Presidente with a "Mozambique Tap".
Yeah, and they're delusional.
I think these types of arguments just increase the divide. I look at them and am shocked and horrified by so many people who want to take away people's rights to carry.
You know what else is horrifying? 12 dead people and 70 injuries. Yes, people do want to take away the right for people to carry concealed weapons. It doesn't seem necessary and poses a risk to other people. The Trayvon Martin case is a perfect example of the problem. This guy was a "law abiding citizen", not some criminal, but as a result of his actions a perfectly innocent teenager was killed.

It's not unreasonable at all to think that people might not any random person to have life or death power over them just because they are so paranoid and cowardly they can't leave the house without being able to defend themselves with lethal force.
posted by delmoi at 7:02 PM on July 20, 2012 [17 favorites]


Sidhedevil, I don't know about OH law. I was presuming some things, I guess. My CCW trainer pretty much stated (I paraphrase) "If the police are told you have a gun where you aren't allowed to have one, you are going to jail. You will lose your right to even touch a gun." Now, he was a former sheriff, and I believed him. I also think that SC has looser laws than most places. I am OK with being wrong on this. And from a (just now) reading of SC law, it states that only the 2nd offense mandates a punishment, I think I am.

But as a gun owner, I think it's terrible that violating the wishes of a property owner where a weapon is involved isn't a serious crime.
posted by timfinnie at 7:05 PM on July 20, 2012


From Artw's Ebert link:
Here is a record of mass shootings in the United States since 2005. It is 62 pages long. It was compiled by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
It just goes on an on... Someone gets shot to death every three or four days in the USA. As malor and others have said, the reasons have as much to do with poverty and crime and the War on Drugs as anything, but the sheer magnitude of it is terrible. Every few days.
posted by Kevin Street at 7:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


There have been plenty of public spree killings in the USA over the years, and I can't personally recall any that were stopped by heroic gun-toting citizens. Of course, I could be wrong.

You are wrong. Here's one that also happened in Aurora, CO. (What's in that water, anyway?)

It's not unreasonable at all to think that people might not any random person to have life or death power over them just because they are so paranoid and cowardly they can't leave the house without being able to defend themselves with lethal force.

I think this is an extremely uncharitable interpretation of why someone might want to protect themselves. Many of those wishing to protect themselves have been the victims of violence or sexual assault in the past, and prefer not to experience that again. I don't consider that either paranoid or cowardly, particularly given the statistics on violence and sexual assault in the USA.
posted by corb at 7:09 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Yes, people do want to take away the right for people to carry concealed weapons.

When you say this you actually mean you want to take away the right for people to carry weapons in public at all, I assume? You don't just want, for example, guys like Zimmerman to be carrying their pistols openly on their hips?

Not arguing with you, just clarifying.
posted by Justinian at 7:09 PM on July 20, 2012


Why isn't there more widespread use of tasers and other nonlethal weapons by private citizens? The cost?
posted by Apocryphon at 7:13 PM on July 20, 2012


I'm torn on the gun issue. I'm a gun-owner from a family of responsible gun-owning farmers. I also think that the populace should be able to defend itself against the government if necessary. OTOH, if powerful, high-capacity firearms are available, tragedies like the CO mass murders *will* happen.

Of course I realized that Metafilter would be full of appeals for more gun control. Half of me sympathizes with those appeals.

Let me point out that, whatever its merits might be, gun control is a losing issue for the Democrats. If the Dems push for gun control now, they will lower their odds of winning in November. A Republican victory will be a disaster for the country and the world.

Given that it isn't clear what we should do about firearms, given that criminals already have them and that that is not going to change, given that significant gun control simply isn't going to happen now in the U.S., and given that pushing for it is political suicide, let me suggest that one should not push too terribly hard for it right now.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 7:13 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Why isn't there more widespread use of tasers and other nonlethal weapons by private citizens? The cost?

Brilliant point. I'd guess that part of the problem is that tasers are not nearly as fun to shoot.
posted by Strass at 7:15 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


My friend and co-worker Scotty grew up in the Denver area and used to work across the street from the the theater where this happened. He described Aurora as 'the Queens of Colorado,' a very diverse but relatively harmonius city where this kind of stuff was not expected, but whre the hell would it be expected, I guess?

Sympathies to the victims and families.
posted by jonmc at 7:16 PM on July 20, 2012


Why isn't there more widespread use of tasers and other nonlethal weapons by private citizens? The cost?

It just doesn't make the news.

IN this case it would have also been pretty unbalanced and unlikely to succeed.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:17 PM on July 20, 2012


There have been plenty of public spree killings in the USA over the years, and I can't personally recall any that were stopped by heroic gun-toting citizens. Of course, I could be wrong.

Here are a couple of notable cases.

New Life Church shootings (2007) (In an odd postscript, the woman who saved the parishoners' lives claimed to have been fired from the church for after informing leadership that she was a lesbian.)

Appalachian School of Law shooting (2002)
posted by BobbyVan at 7:17 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Why isn't there more widespread use of tasers and other nonlethal weapons by private citizens? The cost?

Generally, inefficiency and lack of range, would be my guess.
posted by corb at 7:20 PM on July 20, 2012




Great, we only need another 200 annual averted spree killings or so before we break even on gun culture. Keep up the good work!
posted by mek at 7:30 PM on July 20, 2012 [18 favorites]


I believe gun owners would argue that taxowners simply shouldn't pay the medical costs of firearm injuries - or indeed, many would argue that taxpayers shouldn't pay the medical costs of anyone's injuries.

Well, they can argue all they want but the fact is that taxpayers end up paying half the medical cost of gun violence in the U.S., and insurance companies pay the other half--meaning that everyone's insurance rate is jacked up a little to cover the cost.

Why in the world should taxpayers and those with insurance carry the burden of the cost of firearms injuries?

Let those who want to own and use guns buy the insurance and pay the cost.
posted by flug at 7:31 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


cjorgensen : As to the a highly trained person could have yadda yadda I would point out that a trained person would shoot for center mass.

You should look up my earlier phrase, "Mozambique Tap". It covers exactly that situation, where two shots to center mass don't stop the attacker. On a fail-to-stop, next shot goes to the head - Admittedly a slightly harder target to hit, but you don't see a whole lot of folks wearing bulletproof head armor.
posted by pla at 7:32 PM on July 20, 2012


Mozambique tap?

That expression alone is enough to communicate exactly how fucked up the "Gun Enthusiast" culture is.
posted by Sara C. at 7:37 PM on July 20, 2012 [31 favorites]


If someone shot him in the chest with a .357 magnum revolver at 25 feet, it would probably knock him down at the least, right?

At most, the target receives almost the same energy as the shooter. But that's only if the bullet hasn't bled much energy into the air, and if it dumps all its energy into the target. Unless .357's pose a serious risk of knocking their shooter down, they can't have enough energy to knock down a similarly-massed target.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


kengraham : Sometimes it seems like proponents of gun ownership for "personal defense" are excited at the prospect of being present at tragedies like this one.

Would you feel all that bad if someone had taken this guy out as soon as he opened fire? 50+ victims earlier than he made it to?


delmoi : But while shooting at a shooting range might be fun. It isn't so much fun that people are willing to spend years in jail to do it in states where guns are more highly restricted.

Believe it or not, some of us decide where to spend our adult lives based on that fact, among others.

Would I carry in a state that bans it? No! I wouldn't risk my right to carry in such a stupid manner. Would I live in a state that bans it? Again - An unequivocal no (and I even avoid spending time in such states, which unsurprisingly have the highest rates of gun crime).
posted by pla at 7:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


In the LA riots, post-Rodney King, I was told by a friend that the Asian population more or less had to defend themselves from angry rioters and looters, because the cops were only protecting the white nighborhoods....Nevermind that they had essentially zero to do with racist cops, and that the racist cops were all protecting the white citizens; the rioters didn't care about that, and were just looking for things to burn. (Empahasis mine.)

Not to derail, but that last part really needs some context.
Latasha Harlins (July 14, 1975 – March 16, 1991) was a 15-year-old African-American girl who was unlawfully shot and killed by Soon Ja Du, a 51-year-old Korean store owner.

....Police say that Du erroneously concluded Harlins was attempting to steal, evidently not seeing the money Harlins was holding....On November 15, 1991, the jury...found Du guilty of voluntary manslaughter, an offense that carries a maximum prison sentence of 16-years in prison. However, trial judge, Joyce Karlin, sentenced Du five years of probation, four hundred hours of community service, and a $500 fine.

In addition to the immediate trigger of the Rodney King verdicts, a range of other factors were cited as reasons for the unrest. Anger over Korean American shop-owner Soon Ja Du's weak sentence...was pointed to as a potential reason for the riots, particularly for aggression toward Korean Americans.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:41 PM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


Kevin Street : Every few days.

300,000,000 people in the US.

Three hundred million people.

"One in a million" means 300 times a day.

Statistics. Most people really, really suck at it.
posted by pla at 7:46 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


IN this case it would have also been pretty unbalanced and unlikely to succeed.
Sure, a taser wouldn't work here. But it would probably work in most of the situations where CCW users might use their weapons successfully. As I said I don't think someone with a pistol would have had much of a chance. Ultimately, a bullet doesn't put any more energy into a vest as it does into the arms of a person shooting it. If you're fully armored up, it might knock you down, but the idea of taking down this guy with a pistol in a crowded dark theater full of tear gas just seems highly unlikely.

Whether or not concealed carry should be banned is really beside the point in this shooting, but I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the idea that if we just had more people with concealed fire arms in the theater things would have worked out.
On a fail-to-stop, next shot goes to the head
Which also wouldn't have done anything given the fact he was wearing a Balistic helmet Maybe you'd get really, really lucky and knock him down, giving you (and other people) time to run away.

But really. It's just pure fantasy. This guy had an AR-15 with a 100 round clip, plus extra guns. He was fully armored. It's entirely possible that he might shoot you while you were taking aim.

And on top of that, the theater was full of tear gas. You might not even be able to see, your eyes would be watering.

There's a slim chance that someone might get off a lucky shot but there's also a good chance that if there were more then one person who was armed that even more people might have ended up being shot.

posted by delmoi at 7:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


The thing no gun nut wants to tell you is just how inconvenient and dorky it is to carry. I don't mean the permit or training is a hassle. I mean carrying the gun around either concealed or openly is just awkward. A holster isn't all the comfortable. You could out it it a bag, but then what if you leave your gun somewhere. A holster is worse than an IT utility belt from a fashion perspective. It is a bit like deciding to carry a bike helmet everywhere just in case you want to hop on a rent-a-bike. It might make you safer, but it so bulky and awkward to carry.
So you get the gun after some horrible incident happens to you. You get the training, carry for a while. Eventually though it ends up in the gun safe in the morning when you are in a hurry to run an stand. Then later you are going jogging in the park and you realize even though there have been a few dog bites, rapes and assaults on this trail, your gun is still in the safe. You will become aware at this moment that you did remember your $600 iPhone is connected to yor arm along with $200 Nike and the $200 Nike+ watch. So there you are alone in the park flashing $1000 of consumer goods, no gun.
Thus I'm launching a new kickstarter for a gun that is also a smartPhone and music player. I'm going to do what Nest has done for thermostats to guns.
posted by humanfont at 7:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [16 favorites]


many would argue that taxpayers shouldn't pay the medical costs of anyone's injuries

FYI the study is here, with many details. Most of the government cost is because many of the victims are covered by Medicaid or Medicare. Getting into an argument about whether those should be abolished is getting a bit beyond the scope of this discussion.

Looking at it in a little more general terms, the cost of medical treatment for gun violence will be born by:
  1. The victim
  2. Insurance companies, including gov't programs like Medicaid & Medicard. Generally it will be the victim's insurance, though in some cases it may be insurance held by some 3rd party (like the theater, in this case)
  3. The perpetrator
In this case, the perpetrator caused many, many millions in damage and has essentially no assets. So options #1 and #2, supplemented by donations from the general public, will cover all these costs.

Why do the victims, insurance companies (ie, everyone with insurance), and taxpayers have to pay the cost of gun violence? People who want to own guns should pay those costs, and gun insurance is a simple way to make that happen.
posted by flug at 7:53 PM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


Compare and contrast:
Believe it or not, some of us decide where to spend our adult lives based on that fact, among others.

Would I carry in a state that bans it? No! I wouldn't risk my right to carry in such a stupid manner. Would I live in a state that bans it? Again - An unequivocal no
vs.

300,000,000 people in the US.

Three hundred million people.

"One in a million" means 300 times a day.

Statistics. Most people really, really suck at it.
Statistically, you have no reason to need to carry a gun at all, since the legitimate need to defend yourself with a gun is even less likely. Yeah, it's true that people are terrible at statistics, but statistically you have no need to carry a gun to defend yourself at all. And therefore, no reason to worry about having it taken away.
posted by delmoi at 7:54 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


I'm not sure what your point is, pla. Even adjusted for population, the US has the 12th highest rate of firearm-related deaths in the world. (Per Wikipedia.)

And man, Estonia must be one dangerous little country. It's 9th.
posted by Kevin Street at 7:56 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Oh speaking of the medical costs. The governor did say at a press conference they were looking to raise money to help pay them. Still pretty fucked up though that these people may have to face hefty medical bills if enough funds aren't raised. And of course, people injured in less notorious cases might have to pay their own bills too.
posted by delmoi at 7:56 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


On National Review's "The Corner" blog:
This incident should not surprise us. Over the past half century, we have emptied out the state psychiatric hospitals but then failed to provide treatment for half of those discharged. They have ended up, in increasing numbers, homeless on the streets, in jails and prisons, in emergency rooms, and committing violent acts, including homicides. Three studies suggest that individuals with untreated severe mental illnesses are responsible for approximately 10 percent of all homicides, and another study suggests they are responsible for more than 10 percent of rampage murders. We are now seeing about two such mass killings associated with mental illness each year.

...

Why don’t we provide proper treatment? The main reason is that state governors and legislatures think they are saving money. They are not, of course, since these untreated people end up costing us money in jails and prisons or by causing tragedies such as the one we are witnessing. Ultimately we need to hold governors and state legislatures responsible for such tragedies. And, sadly, it seems to take tragedies like this to even get their attention.
posted by BobbyVan at 7:59 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


humanfont : I mean carrying the gun around either concealed or openly is just awkward. A holster isn't all the comfortable.

You haven't seen many of the sub-2lbs semis and under-the-clothes holsters then, have you?

Yes, it certainly takes some getting used to. Yes, you need to learn not to reach for the top shelf on your carrying-side. But you all but forget you have it after a week of carrying it.


delmoi : This guy had an AR-15 with a 100 round clip, plus extra guns. He was fully armored.

You make the single best point so far, one I can't really negate with clever words or any sort of "you'd have to be there to understand" argument. But y'know, sooner than it took him to kill 12 people and wound 58(+?) others, someone in a fully-armed theater would have lucked out. And y'know, getting hit by a 45 even with a bulletproof vest on? It kinda throws off your aim (a 45 bullet carries roughly the same amount of energy as falling from roughly 3 feet - Not going to kill you if diffuse, but you won't just ignore it). Would you consider 70 people merely wounded a worthwhile tradeoff?
posted by pla at 8:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


humanfront, forget the kickstarter campaign and get yourself a fanny pack. Many off-duty cops use one to carry while jogging.
posted by mlis at 8:03 PM on July 20, 2012


But y'know, sooner than it took him to kill 12 people and wound 58(+?) others, someone in a fully-armed theater would have lucked out.

With all the other bullets they fired bouncing harmlessly off the walls, I assume.
posted by gerryblog at 8:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Someone in a fully armed theater would have missed the bad guy and hit a bystander, and then some other guy would assume he was the shooter and aim at him instead, and then...
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


delmoi : Statistically, you have no reason to need to carry a gun at all, since the legitimate need to defend yourself with a gun is even less likely.

Statistically, most people will get mugged, at the point of a gun or really nasty looking knife, twice in their lives.

I'd rather kill than depend on both those bath-salts-psychos having a firm grasp of the consequences of their actions.

Simple as that.
posted by pla at 8:05 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


You will become aware at this moment that you did remember your $600 iPhone is connected to yor arm along with $200 Nike and the $200 Nike+ watch. So there you are alone in the park flashing $1000 of consumer goods, no gun.

To what extent is the I Need A Gun To Protect Myself thing an extension of the idea of America as a country of working class people who see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires?

I mean, ooooooh, look at you with your name brand sneakers and your smartphone and your fancy pedometer! Seriously? I am by no means wealthy or flashy, and yet during any given commute I'm carrying upwards of $1000 of stuff. And I don't even wear jewelry. I'm pretty sure this isn't all that rare, nowadays. I see people on the NYC subway system openly using macbook pros (i.e. a $1500 laptop) to watch TV.

Nobody wants your stuff. Seriously. The idea that you need a gun because someone might steal your iPod Touch while you're out jogging is a politically and economically dangerous fantasy. If we could all just come to terms with the idea that most of us are middle class and live modest lives and mostly have the same kinds of stuff that other modest middle class people have, America would be a much better place.

(Humanfont, this isn't at all directed at you.)
posted by Sara C. at 8:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [15 favorites]


Great, we only need another 200 annual averted spree killings or so before we break even on gun culture. Keep up the good work!

To be fair, the people who brought up those incidents were responding to claims that the idea of "the heroic armed citizen fighting back" never happens. This shows that it has happened before. Seems like moving the goalposts to claim that there has to be a certain quota.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:07 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Someone in a fully armed theater would have missed the bad guy and hit a bystander, and then some other guy would assume he was the shooter and aim at him instead, and then...

Now that's just ridiculous. Everyone would be able to instantly tell the Good Guy Firing A Gun In A Crowded Theatre from Bad Guy Doing Same by the set of his chiselled jaw and his big white hat. Everyone who knows anything about handguns knows that much!
posted by Catch at 8:09 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Mod note: We appear to have reached Peak Pro-Gun Rhetoric. At this point, please tone it down or let it go before things get weird.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:10 PM on July 20, 2012


pla, you are kind of scary. I know you feel like you are rational and totally one of the great gun owners of the world but I really hope I don't run into you.
posted by edgeways at 8:11 PM on July 20, 2012 [24 favorites]




The mister and I were planning on seeing the movie next weekend. After seeing the news my thought was no no no, no movies, uh-uh, no way. But as Bunny Ultramod said upthread - fuck that guy. We're going to see it any way.

My thoughts and good wishes are with the victims and their families and friends. I hope you all heal soon and well.
posted by deborah at 8:27 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I've been wondering for hours if James Holmes isn't one of Mefi's own.
posted by de at 8:27 PM on July 20, 2012


I am an American, born and raised. I also have dual citizenship with a EU member country through a parent. When I am in Europe, some of the teenager relatives will sometimes ask about the pro-gun crazytown attitudes in the US and I am always at a loss to adequately explain. Thankfully most of the time an adult is around to change the subject.
posted by mlis at 8:27 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


My overwhelming cluelessness has been corrected -- I now understand that in a dark, closed space a fully armed audience of universally highly trained amateur gun enthusiasts will simultaneously and immediately be able to correctly identify the location of the shooter and bring him down despite his body armor before he is able to get off a second shot, all without hitting any bystanders and without any of our heroes firing the wrong way.

This is obviously what would happen, and I don't see why I was unable to recognize it before.
posted by gerryblog at 8:29 PM on July 20, 2012 [22 favorites]


mediated self -

I know that latter is Hollywood-ese for "shit, our movie that was 100% in every way conceptualized so that it would Win The Weekend and make the mostest moneyz evar is now not going to perform according to plan because of a horrible tragedy outside our control." How do we spin this? There are probably assistants getting fired just sort of out of the blue over this as we speak.

But still, it does sound at least a little bit classy. And I'm glad to hear that they're at least giving lip service to the notion that maybe box office grosses aren't the most important thing in the world.
posted by Sara C. at 8:30 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


.
posted by xorry at 8:31 PM on July 20, 2012


Sara C.: weekend numbers will likely still be reported by rival studios
posted by mediated self at 8:33 PM on July 20, 2012


The Ph.D. dropout angle is really compelling to me (finished dissertation in April, defending in Sept., go figure bureaucracy). I wonder if "personal issues" led to the withdrawl, or if there was a pressured withdrawl which led to "personal issues."

If I did totally wig out and do something spectacularly stupid and selfish, I want you to tell them that it was because of the stupid wooden-roof mounted HVAC units that should never have been installed there in the first place.

Anyway, everyone I know who is pro-gun always strongly states the point that "you are responsible for what comes out of your gun, all the way downstream." And "Every bullet that comes out of your gun that is unaccounted for is a $10k lawyer's bill."

Sure, if the gunman was dropped after the first few shots, if there was a theater packed with concealed carry permits, how many innocent people could have been killed/injured? How would the people with CC permits feel after the fact?
posted by porpoise at 8:33 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


If you don't want the pro gun viewpoint, however, might I suggest you use your Mod-like powers on the ANTI-gun crowd equally?

If you haven't read about Rat Park (linked upthread), you ought to. I think one thing you're missing trying to have this gun debate, is that many people here believe the solution to this problem is to create a better, healthier society where there's no need to carry around weapons of death in our day to day lives. And to many, America's obsession with guns seems like an unhealthy manifestation of an underlying sickness; ultimately a (not unfounded, but also self-fulfilling) distrust of fellow humans

So to come in here arguing for more guns is missing a lot of the point. 200 million guns in a society of antique gun collectors and sportsmen would strike me as an oddity. 200 million guns in a society growing increasingly afraid of its fellow citizens, with more guns being aggressively presented as the solution to the current, excessive violence ... is concerning

We should not need to live in a society where citizens are skilled in mozambique tapping military-equipped assailants. Stop train. Turn around. Instead of trying to make the world a safe place from people like this, try to make it a nice place for everyone
posted by crayz at 8:34 PM on July 20, 2012 [27 favorites]


Nobody wants your stuff. Seriously. The idea that you need a gun because someone might steal your iPod Touch while you're out jogging is a politically and economically dangerous fantasy. If we could all just come to terms with the idea that most of us are middle class and live modest lives and mostly have the same kinds of stuff that other modest middle class people have, America would be a much better place.


Except that as stated above, people will be mugged for just those things. In the last year, I've witnessed three mugging incidents. Over smartphones and wallets and stuff that yes, is just what every middle class person might own, but there are also an awful lot of people that are not middle class.

[We appear to have reached Peak Pro-Gun Rhetoric. At this point, please tone it down or let it go before things get weird. ]

Can people also tone down the peak anti-gun rhetoric? Because otherwise, this seems a bit unbalanced.
posted by corb at 8:35 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Mozambique Tap no less... ease back, have a gatorade, you're gonna chafe. Perps, center mass...
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:35 PM on July 20, 2012


Can people also tone down the peak anti-gun rhetoric? Because otherwise, this seems a bit unbalanced.

Funny, I wonder why most people taking part in a discussion about a guy running amok and shooting people in cold blood would be anti-gun.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:38 PM on July 20, 2012 [18 favorites]


Can people also tone down the peak anti-gun rhetoric? Because otherwise, this seems a bit unbalanced.

When the anti-gun people start talking cheerfully about personally killing people, I'll be happy to so direct them. It's nice to have both sides, but one-upping the stakes always ends badly for threads.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Would you feel all that bad if someone had taken this guy out as soon as he opened fire? 50+ victims earlier than he made it to?

What's your point? Si vis pacem, esto wingnuttum?

"Take out" is another spineless, violence-apologist weasel-word. You mean "killed". Whether such a defensive killing would have been justified (I wasn't there, so I have no opinion on this specific instance of counterfactual vigilantism) is beside the point, which is that maybe this type of tragic shit would be less prevalent in a culture that didn't hide disrespect for human life in euphemisms like "take out" and instead encouraged people to end their emotional childhoods on schedule, rather than condoning whatever weirdass psychological baggage makes them talk about turning human beings into a "fine red mist" -- right the fuck after a mass shooting -- to persist past the age at which toy-fetishizing, the division of the world into "good guys and bad guys", and the glorification of violence becomes creepy and pathetic.
posted by kengraham at 8:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [32 favorites]


Except that as stated above, people will be mugged for just those things. In the last year, I've witnessed three mugging incidents. Over smartphones and wallets and stuff that yes, is just what every middle class person might own, but there are also an awful lot of people that are not middle class.

Yes. I was mugged at gunpoint, face on the ground gun to the back of the neck sort of thing. He got about $60. If I had been armed, I would 50/50 now be dead

Let's make an awful lot of people middle class?
posted by crayz at 8:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


I'd rather kill than depend on both those bath-salts-psychos having a firm grasp of the consequences of their actions.

Really? You'd rather kill a guy than give him your wallet?
posted by shakespeherian at 8:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [21 favorites]


[opens MetaTalk to wait for the inevitable, sighs a world-weary sigh]
posted by gerryblog at 8:40 PM on July 20, 2012


Maybe this is just the crazy streetsmart New Yorker in me, but

If you are mugged at gunpoint for your wallet, Blackberry, fancy pedometer heartrate monitor thingum, iPad, Manolo Blahniks, whatever, you give them what they ask for and then you go home and call the cops and cancel your credit cards and whatnot.

Duh.
posted by Sara C. at 8:40 PM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


What if they stab/shoot you anyway (anecdata, I know, but happened to an acquaintance)? Muggers don't have a SOP.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:44 PM on July 20, 2012


Instead of a gun, I carry around a second wallet with $20 in it. If I am mugged, I throw the wallet and run away.

It hasn't come up yet, but, as I understand it, it works pretty well, and all I'm out is $20, instead of a trial for manslaughter or possibly my life.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:44 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Really? You'd rather kill a guy than give him your wallet?

I would rather kill a guy than give him my wallet in response to his threat of violence. Yes. Absolutely, 100 percent. And in context of this thread, I would definitely rather kill a guy than allow him to continue shooting civilians.


However, can someone tell me why the concept of the Mozambique Tap is terrifying because of its name? Do people hate Mozambique or something?
posted by corb at 8:46 PM on July 20, 2012


Oh dear
posted by de at 8:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [12 favorites]


It's not that it's terrifying.

It's that it's a desensitized reference to cold-blooded murder combined with a vaguely racialized reference to a lawless and poverty stricken third world country where one would presumably need to use said technique in order to, I dunno, protect one's precious consumer electronics or whatever.

In other words, it's not scary, it's gross.
posted by Sara C. at 8:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [51 favorites]


Have you considered carrying a taser and using that on the mugger?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


However, can someone tell me why the concept of the Mozambique Tap is terrifying because of its name? Do people hate Mozambique or something?

Since I've never had gun training and only learned the history of the technique from Googling it, all I had to go on was the name, which suggests (to me and perhaps to others) not just an enthusiasm for killing but an enthusiasm for racial violence.
posted by gerryblog at 8:51 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Oh, and people who really and truly think they would be willing to murder someone over $50 and a Starbucks Frequent Caffeinator card clearly do not live in any part of the world where they might actually risk getting mugged for real.
posted by Sara C. at 8:52 PM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


Mother Jones: To look at the the frightened eyes of the survivors in Aurora, and see only our own intrinsic goodness, and our political enemies' implacable evil, is the most impenetrable vanity. It's not politics, it's just tribalism. And it's grotesque. But we shouldn't mistake this kind of pettiness for politics itself, which is far too important an arena to cede to those who are incapable of seeing a tragedy and wondering, above all, what it says about themselves. We should be talking about why this happened, and what, if anything, can be done to prevent it from happening again.

National tragedies are political. They're too important not to be.

posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:53 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Oh, and people who really and truly think they would be willing to murder someone over $50 and a Starbucks Frequent Caffeinator card clearly do not live in any part of the world where they might actually risk getting mugged for real.

I live in the same place you do, Sara. I just hate giving in to muggers, and find Bernie Goetz a little more of a hero than I think you would.

It's that it's a desensitized reference to cold-blooded murder combined with a vaguely racialized reference to a lawless and poverty stricken third world country where one would presumably need to use said technique in order to, I dunno, protect one's precious consumer electronics or whatever.

Yeah, this is absolutely not the case. It's a reference to the "creator" of the technique, who developed it in the Mozambique War of Independence. It's not a racial thing at all.

Have you considered carrying a taser and using that on the mugger?

Tasers are not legal to carry for private use, even if I had considered it.
posted by corb at 8:56 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Do people hate Mozambique or something?

1. It sounds euphemistic and casual, when, having Wikipediated it, one finds that it actually refers to shooting a human being twice in the chest and, should the victim continue to be alive, shooting them in the head. The name is dishonest.

2. It refers to a technique apparently developed by a mercenary fighting on the side of an imperial power during the Mozambican War of Independence. Awesome situation to memorialize in your technical jargon, folks.

I would rather kill a guy than give him my wallet in response to his threat of violence. Yes. Absolutely, 100 percent.

What's in your wallet?
posted by kengraham at 8:59 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


Tasers are not legal to carry for private use, even if I had considered it.

Yet guns are... Something about this does not seem right.
posted by Strass at 8:59 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Maybe this is just the crazy streetsmart New Yorker in me, but

If you are mugged at gunpoint for your wallet, Blackberry, fancy pedometer heartrate monitor thingum, iPad, Manolo Blahniks, whatever, you give them what they ask for and then you go home and call the cops and cancel your credit cards and whatnot.

Duh.


Sarah, I'd like to respectfully disagree with you there. You see, I actually grew up in New York and I was mugged there when I was younger, and I don't recall being "asked" for anything. What happened was that the two black guys flanked me, pulled knives, and one of them said to the other "Jab him - take his wallet!" And then I pulled out my own knife and they froze. We stayed that way for fifteen seconds before a car drove by (illuminating all our faces clearly) and since there were witnesses, we both stood down. They put their knives in their pockets and walked one way, I lowered my knife cautiously and walked in the other direction.

The key thing I want to emphasize here is that at no point was I ever "asked" for my stuff. I would simply have been stabbed and robbed if I hadn't been armed that day. I might even have died. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of negotiation, but it's really naive to assume that you always have the option to negotiate. The sad truth is that sometimes, people just want to kill you. If you haven't learned that, you're not as streetsmart a New Yorker as you think you are.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 8:59 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


who developed it in the Mozambique War of Independence. It's not a racial thing at all.

I'm not sure I see how that follows.
posted by gerryblog at 9:00 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Wolf- do you think the situation would have played out the same if you and your muggers all had guns, though?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:02 PM on July 20, 2012


Oh black guys.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:03 PM on July 20, 2012 [23 favorites]


The more guns that were in that theater, the less would be the body count. Body armor or not, he would not have been seriously slowed down had there been citizens shooting back at him. This insanity will continue - until the bad guys realize that there are citizens who can - and will - stand up to a psychotic attacks like this.

We have a broken medical system that sends seriously sick mentally ill people out into the streets. Guns can be bought on any street corner. Legal or not. We have a broken system - and you damned well better realize that protecting yourself is becoming less of a choice and more of a necessity.
posted by Bighappyfunhouse at 9:03 PM on July 20, 2012


Yeah, this is absolutely not the case. It's a reference to the "creator" of the technique, who developed it in the Mozambique War of Independence. It's not a racial thing at all.

That's whitewashing it quite a bit.

It's a reference to colonialist mercenaries doing battle against Mozambican guerillas who were fighting for their country's independence.

Classy.
posted by Sara C. at 9:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


I own a gun. Yet the idea of a bunch of scared shooters trying to hit one man dressed in black, in a dark,crowded, tear-gas filled theater terrifies me more than the killer. To fantasize a gunfight stroked me as massively irresponsible.
posted by happyroach at 9:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


Yet more encroachment of the police state? Isn't the War on Drugs fucking enough?

Haven't the last thirty years taught you that prohibition doesn't work?


I just wanted to pull this out from the thread, because I think it's an important symptom of this American sickness. There is some assumption that Liberty somehow means abandoning all reasonable governance to avoid trampling on people's rights.

But that's just now how the world works. There are competing moral codes which often intersect: here we have the right of an individual to own semi-automatic weapons versus the right of other individuals not to be 1) shot and killed by someone who legally owns weapons and decides to use it illegally, or 2) live in a society flooded with weapons that are designed to kill people efficiently, where it's easy for criminals and the mentally ill to use weapons illegally.

The upside to supporting gun ownership rights is that more people get to own guns, some believe for the laughable concept of armed rebellion against the US Army. Sure, you can get away with fighting the USG it in remote parts of the world, far from supplies and passable roads, but it simply isn't going to happen in America. You'd better vote with your vote instead of doing nothing and buying guns, because there are hundreds of thousands of armed troops around the country that can probably hit any town with hellish ordinance in less than an hour. (If you don't like it, you should probably start lobbying against the military and standing armies in general. That collection of AR15s is simply a pebble under the foot and track and wing of the US armed forces. Really.)

The upside to supporting the right to be free of a society clogged with these death machines is that more people will probably live. Now, how does this differ from the drug war? Well, I can't kill dozens of people with a joint, or an eight ball, or even with meth. I cannot terrorize someone with a bong or even a needle full of heroin in the same way a gun terrorizes and destroys rooms full of people. That's why government authority used to control and mitigate the dangers of guns make a hell of a lot more sense than the drug war. Drawing these links between completely opposite purposes of government — like saying "You want health care from the DMV?" — is disingenuous and irrational. I don't know why it sells to so many people when it is, on it's face, a complete non-sequitor.

I can just as easily say, "You mean you don't want health care from the same people who sent men to the moon, and have rovers exploring Mars and the outer reaches of space?" Government can do something for the greater good, and that's proper, even if it does somewhat limit the freedom of a vocal minority. Some people want to live in a society without police or fire protection or roads or schools, but they are ignored, and rightly so.
posted by deanklear at 9:05 PM on July 20, 2012 [23 favorites]


Wolfsdream, your experience runs counter to everyone I've ever met who has been mugged.
posted by Sara C. at 9:05 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Wolf- do you think the situation would have played out the same if you and your muggers all had guns, though?

I honestly don't know. What I do know is that I never felt as panicked and ashamed as I did that night, and I'm a fairly imposing guy. Imagine how much worse it could be for a woman. I'm of the opinion that nobody should ever have to feel that helpless, and if that means giving a gun to every man and woman in America, I'm totally OK with that. I acknowledge that accidents will happen, but at least nobody will have to feel like a helpless victim anymore, and though this may sound unsympathetic considering the context, in the grand scale of things I fully believe that is worth some collateral damage.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 9:08 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


If you are mugged at gunpoint for your wallet, Blackberry, fancy pedometer heartrate monitor thingum, iPad, Manolo Blahniks, whatever, you give them what they ask for and then you go home and call the cops and cancel your credit cards and whatnot.

Duh.


See, some people aren't wired up to do that. You can disagree, and its pretty obvious a lot of mefis certainly do, but some people would rather put up a fight than give up or run away. I have no problem with the idea of an individual killing someone to defend their life or property.

Oh, and people who really and truly think they would be willing to murder someone over $50 and a Starbucks Frequent Caffeinator card clearly do not live in any part of the world where they might actually risk getting mugged for real.

I'm pretty certain that some thieves would be willing to kill you for those items, and I don't see the logic in spending a lot of time trying to figure out if they were or not. If someone is trying to rob me, and threatening me with a weapon, I have to assume they intend to kill me.
posted by KHAAAN! at 9:09 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Imagine how much worse it could be for a woman.

Oh, black guys and women. I see.
posted by Sara C. at 9:09 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


Maybe there could be research done towards more effective and safe nonlethal defensive weapons. Elon Musk could open a division for Tesla that specializes in it?
posted by Apocryphon at 9:10 PM on July 20, 2012


Why do the victims, insurance companies (ie, everyone with insurance), and taxpayers have to pay the cost of gun violence? People who want to own guns should pay those costs, and gun insurance is a simple way to make that happen.

Is there any organization or campaign working on this as a national issue? I would far rather put my energy toward this than spin out against the well-funded NRA agenda. (And, after all, some of the most vociferous 'gun rights' defenders are also furious about 'free rides on us taxpayers'. win win.)
posted by Surfurrus at 9:11 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


BTW, as a local, and I don't know if this has been pointed out or if it has tremendous relevance to the case, but the murderer lived in a REALLY shitty neighborhood. Worse than any in Denver, perhaps. Aurora is just east of Denver, and it happens to be where a lot of the poor and desperate people moved when Denver itself became hipper and safer and more expensive.

Well, the part of Aurora he lived in, anyway. Most of the city is pretty well off. It's big. But the Colfax corridor, where the killer lived, (Colfax is the old Highway 40) is pretty sketchy.
posted by kozad at 9:11 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]




Oh, black guys and women. I see.

I don't think people should be condescending about this.

I've got ladybits - does that mean I can say this without being taken for a sexist? I'm also a survivor of sexual assault. And let me tell you, without getting into specific details of a particularly ugly situation: my assailant was armed, and had I been armed, I would have not been assaulted. And like wolfdreams, I'm not waiting around to see what else people want to take when they want me to surrender anything.

TASER electronic control devices are not considered firearms and are legal to carry in most states without permits.

Most does not equal all.
posted by corb at 9:12 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


"Restricted from consumer use in MA, RI, NY, NJ, MI, HI, District of Columbia"
posted by the_artificer at 9:12 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'd rather kill than depend on both those bath-salts-psychos having a firm grasp of the consequences of their actions.

Heh. I'd rather face the fictitious bath-salts guy any day than any of the very real gun psychos I've met over the years.
posted by telstar at 9:14 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


some people would rather put up a fight than give up or run away

It's convenient how like 99% of people who feel this way live in White Haven, PA.

Those tend to be the same people who assume that Inner City Crime involves mostly depraved crack-addicted criminals who'd murder you as soon as look at you (and yet they're the ones who use expressions like "Mozambique Tap"!).
posted by Sara C. at 9:14 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


psychotic attacks

Can we not do this unless there's evidence that an actual psychotic episode was involved?
posted by kengraham at 9:14 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


this might be meta but I really wish that this whole debate was moved to a separate thread
posted by Apocryphon at 9:15 PM on July 20, 2012


Oh, black guys and women. I see.

Gosh Sara, I'm so sorry that my mugging didn't fit into your idealized, ethnically-diverse vision of what a mugging is "supposed" to be. Would it have made you feel better if one of the people who wanted to stab me was a middle-class white female, and the other guy was her wacky gay indian sidekick?
posted by wolfdreams01 at 9:15 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Pepper spray is, however, legal in New York if you prefer not to kill people for self defense.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:16 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


I was poking fun at the fact that you brought BUT WHAT IF I HAD BEEN A WOMAN into it, as if women

can't defend ourselves,
are valuable mostly for our sexuality,
and must go around feeling weak and victimized all the time.
posted by Sara C. at 9:17 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Pepper spray is, however, legal in New York if you prefer not to kill people for self defense.

Not exactly. Pepper spray in certain (read: effective) concentrations is not legal to sell in NY, so if you want it, you have to cross the border into other states to buy it and bring it back. And if you do buy pepper spray in the city, you get placed on, no shit, a fucking list. Just like if you buy body armor.

NYC is straight up insane in terms of allowing people to protect themselves. It is that, more than anything else, that makes me feel unsafe here.
posted by corb at 9:19 PM on July 20, 2012


Mod note: The hypothetical mugging is trending towards being hostile and personalized, and everyone's done a good job not going there too much this thread. Can we all please move on?
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:20 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Imagine a world without guns.
posted by mattbucher at 9:23 PM on July 20, 2012


Imagine a world without guns.

Simpsons did it.
posted by gerryblog at 9:25 PM on July 20, 2012


NYC is straight up insane in terms of allowing people to protect themselves. It is that, more than anything else, that makes me feel unsafe here.

Yet New York is 45th among states in gun deaths. Relax!
posted by Wordwoman at 9:26 PM on July 20, 2012 [14 favorites]


For the sake of a less heated discussion, I'm going to assume that even gun rights advocates would like to see a reduction in killings like this. I'm also going to assume that everyone on MeFi knows that the USA has a disproportionate number of gun deaths compared to other countries. It's also pretty damn obvious to us MeFites that there is no simple solution to this problem as it has it's roots in politics, culture and socio-economics. So why don't we skip the rhetoric and hypothetical shooter situations, and take a look at policies which have been successful in other countries? Links to successful policies would be much appreciated.

NB: I am not saying that these things will magically make the USA a safe and happy place with puppies and sparkles and double rainbows for everyone. Just looking for things that might make incremental improvements to the current untenable situation, even if applied at local and state level with a patchwork effect.

1. Bullets and guns only available through registered gun dealers, rather than big box supermarkets or wherever. I feel like this could actually have some positive effects for the gun-owning community, in that dealers and buyers would get to know each other better (and much harder for customers with mental illness to slip through the cracks if they have to make regular visits to the same store for ammo) and it'd help support local economy, etc.

2. Gun insurance was proposed above - is it actually in place anywhere? I feel like this might mesh well with the personal responsibility mindset, plus allows for differential pricing based on the type of weapon, frequency and place of use, etc. Responsible shooters pay less, etc.

3. Restrictions on gun ownership based on capacity rather than other categorisations: the more bullets it can pump out at a time, the fewer people are entitled to have one.

4. Campaign finance reform to prevent regulatory capture. I feel like we've covered this a lot in other non-gun-related threads though.

5. Continued improvements to the health care system - not just mental health, but to prevent people from becoming financially desperate, which leads to other societal problems, drug abuse, etc.

6. Industrial relations reform (not sure if that's what it's called in the USA): better workplace conditions, for the same reasons as better healthcare.

7. Possible consolidation of gun laws across groups of states? Other countries have much more uniform sets of laws regarding weaponry, which makes things easier to deal with across the board. I can't imagine all of America getting onto the same plan, but I could see a group of states with high populations of hunters agreeing to have a set of laws of Type A, but more urbanised states having a set of Type B, and another group of states going for Type Wild West, or whatever.

What else has worked in Canada, the UK and the rest of Europe, Australia and Asia?
posted by harriet vane at 9:27 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


Imagine a world without guns.

It actually existed.

I wonder if they had long, drawn-out arguments over crossbow laws, sharp stick waiting periods, and big rock control?
posted by KHAAAN! at 9:28 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Oops. that should have been assault crossbow laws.
posted by KHAAAN! at 9:33 PM on July 20, 2012


Pretty all guns with the exception of revolvers and pump action shotguns are semi-automatic weapons.

Double action revolvers are effectively semi-automatic. And there are lots of other kinds of non-semi-automatic guns: bolt actions, lever actions, breech loaders, and muzzleloaders, just to name the common sorts.
posted by jedicus at 9:34 PM on July 20, 2012


harriet vane: "What else has worked in Canada, the UK and the rest of Europe, Australia and Asia?"

Better healthcare and socioeconomic safety net?

KHAAAN!: "I wonder if they had long, drawn-out arguments over crossbow laws, sharp stick waiting periods, and big rock control?"

In 1139 Pope Innocent II banned the use of crossbows against Christians.
posted by the_artificer at 9:37 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


Why do the victims, insurance companies (ie, everyone with insurance), and taxpayers have to pay the cost of gun violence? People who want to own guns should pay those costs, and gun insurance is a simple way to make that happen.

Gun manufacturers should pay those costs too, but they don't, as per the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. I'm going to write to my representatives and ask them to repeal it. If they were subject to liability lawsuits, they could not stay in business.
posted by Wordwoman at 9:37 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


1. Bullets and guns only available through registered gun dealers, rather than big box supermarkets or wherever. I feel like this could actually have some positive effects for the gun-owning community, in that dealers and buyers would get to know each other better (and much harder for customers with mental illness to slip through the cracks if they have to make regular visits to the same store for ammo) and it'd help support local economy, etc.

Problems with that I think are the problems that exist in locations that do try to limit this - NYC has these laws, and what it means is that it effectively prices out lower-income people from owning and possessing guns and ammunition. It's as though a state forced people to only buy new cars rather than used cars. Some people still like buying new guns directly from firearms dealers, but others prefer to buy them from private sellers - and it's more handy for those people who need to raise cash in a hurry, for example, as happened in a recent AskMe.

2. Gun insurance was proposed above - is it actually in place anywhere? I feel like this might mesh well with the personal responsibility mindset, plus allows for differential pricing based on the type of weapon, frequency and place of use, etc. Responsible shooters pay less, etc.

It would be much harder to legally impose, due to the fact that gun ownership is Constitutionally guaranteed. And what would happen if someone didn't pay their gun insurance? Would they simply be prohibited from going outside with their gun, or would they have to surrender them to the police? I can't see that going well.

3. Restrictions on gun ownership based on capacity rather than other categorisations: the more bullets it can pump out at a time, the fewer people are entitled to have one.

As referenced above in the link from the police officer, high capacity magazines are often needed for self-defense situations. In that link, the shooter took 22 hits before finally collapsing. A lower capacity magazine would not be effective for self defense.

7. Possible consolidation of gun laws across groups of states? Other countries have much more uniform sets of laws regarding weaponry, which makes things easier to deal with across the board. I can't imagine all of America getting onto the same plan, but I could see a group of states with high populations of hunters agreeing to have a set of laws of Type A, but more urbanised states having a set of Type B, and another group of states going for Type Wild West, or whatever.

We kind of already have this, in a sense. But I'm curious what sort of thing you think this would fix? I mean, I as a pro-gun advocate argue for standardization of laws on concealed carry and gun possession, but more as an aid to law-abiding gun owners not getting surprised by gun laws as they drive through a state than anything else.
posted by corb at 9:38 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


harriet vane What else has worked in Canada, the UK and the rest of Europe, Australia and Asia?

Well, apparently they have managed to regulate the items that go into a well-stocked kitchen, because, as was helpfully pointed out above:

Tragedies like this happen; that is a sad reality of life. Even if my some miracle guns were successfully kept out of the hands of psychopaths, a well-stocked kitchen has enough explosive chemicals to level a city block.
posted by mlis at 9:46 PM on July 20, 2012


If they were subject to liability lawsuits, they could not stay in business.

Or they would be much more careful about what kinds of guns they sell and who they sell them to.

Another thing we should do is institute mandatory gun insurance that covers the cost of gun-related deaths. Since a registration scheme is probably politically infeasible (even more so than mandatory insurance), then only workable scheme is a large, lump sum premium at the time of the gun purchase.

If we have to have a gun culture, we should at least push the costs on to the manufacturers and owners of guns.

As referenced above in the link from the police officer, high capacity magazines are often needed for self-defense situations. In that link, the shooter took 22 hits before finally collapsing. A lower capacity magazine would not be effective for self defense.

Anecdotes are not data. I would be very surprised if a significant fraction of successful cases of self-defense by a private citizen required more than the 7-9 bullets carried by a typical revolver or pistol.
posted by jedicus at 9:47 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well, apparently they have managed to regulate the items that go into a well-stocked kitchen, because, as was helpfully pointed out above

There are significantly more steps and levels of difficulty to making a bomb out of household chemicals than there are to grabbing a gun and shooting things. This is why there is a lot more gun violence than bomb violence in the world. I am not making this up.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:51 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


Bombs are a derail; we can talk about kitchen regulation next time there's a bombing. Let's stick to the gun issue for now.

others prefer to buy them from private sellers

I hadn't thought about private sellers, but again that seems more personal than buying them from Walmart. The checkout chick doesn't care and can't tell if you're not mentally well, but a private seller at least has the right to decide they'd rather sell to someone else.

It would be much harder to legally impose, due to the fact that gun ownership is Constitutionally guaranteed.

Car ownership is a right too, and we still say you have to have 3rd-party insurance. What do we do in cases of lapsed car insurance? Pay a fine, etc? I'm just saying that responsible gun owners would be happy to do this in case of accidents (insurance takes care of it instead of being sued), and that would put pressure on the lazy middle ground. You could make it so the insurance is part of the standard paperwork, gets transferred in cases of private sale, etc. Again, won't protect us from the lunatic fringe, but let's just work on one thing at a time.

high capacity magazines are often needed for self-defense situations.

This is *highly* debateable and would not be accepted as a proposition in anywhere except the US. And we can't legislate based on edge cases like this theatre shooting, but we can on everday muggings, etc. where apparently the mere presence of a weapon is sufficient deterrent.

re: 7. I actually think gun owners not being surprised by laws as they move around is a pretty great reason in itself. But it's more about having a predictable setup reduces paperwork for dealers and buyers, for permits, etc. Generally accepting that since gun ownership in the USA is a fact of life, why not make it work efficiently? It'd take some of the heat and emotion out of things if gun owners felt that their legitimate needs and wants were given the respect that comes from being sensibly accounted for in legal matters, which is what happens elsewhere in the world. I'm interested in defusing the cultural antagonism as well as reducing deaths.
posted by harriet vane at 9:55 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


jedicus : Double action revolvers are effectively semi-automatic.

Mods, please don't delete this, because the above expresses EXATCLY the kind of ignorance that plagues this discussion.

A "semi-automatic" means a very specific kind of gun. TOTALLY orthogonal to a revolver, whether single or double action.

A revolver has a barrel (that serves as the chamber itself) that rotates each cartridge into position between the firing pin and the barrel.

A semi-automatic, whether single or double action, takes a magazine and uses either the spring force from the magazine, or the force from the previously fired round, to load the next cartridge into the chamber.

The "semi-automatic" part refers to how the next cartridge moves into the chamber. It either "revolves" into position, or it "semi-automatically" gets loaded from the magazine. The term has nothing to do with how rapidly the gun can fire - jedicus correctly (though at the same time, wildly incorrectly) points out that a double-action revolver can fire just as fast as a double-action semi.
posted by pla at 9:55 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


harriet vane : but we can on everday muggings, etc. where apparently the mere presence of a weapon is sufficient deterrent.

Even in cases of self-defense, "brandishing" commits a crime in and of itself.
posted by pla at 9:57 PM on July 20, 2012


I'm kind of wondering about the extent to which Americans are actually obsessed with guns. I know gun nuts exist (and pla might count as one), but almost all the people I know who own guns are hunters. They like hunting. Guns are something they hunt with, but they're not obsessed with them, anymore than carpenters are obsessed with saws.

I've known a couple people who owned a gun for self-defense. They also didn't seem very obsessed.

Framing the debate this way seems to assume that all gun owners are nuts, and therefore any rational conversation with them is impossible, no gun owners could possibly be concerned about incidents like this, and none of them would never entertain any regulations aimed at making them less likely.

My personal experience suggests that this is not actually the case.
posted by nangar at 9:59 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Ack! A revolver has a CYLINDER. Not a barrel. Mea culpa.
posted by pla at 9:59 PM on July 20, 2012


Statistically, most people will get mugged, at the point of a gun or really nasty looking knife, twice in their lives.

I haven't seen anyone question this statistic yet, so I am doing it now. Do you have a cite for this?

It sounds way, way excessive. Seriously, you are suggesting that over 50% of the American population is going to get mugged TWICE?!

Cite it.
posted by marble at 10:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


I have been mugged twice, once at gunpoint, once at knifepoint.

Glad that's all over. STATISTICALLY I SHOULD BE DONE.

I had no knife or gun in either circumstance. Somehow I made it out okay.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


There are significantly more steps and levels of difficulty to making a bomb out of household chemicals than there are to grabbing a gun and shooting things. This is why there is a lot more gun violence than bomb violence in the world. I am not making this up.

*sigh* I needed to include the sarcasm tag with my comment.
posted by mlis at 10:06 PM on July 20, 2012


re: 7. I actually think gun owners not being surprised by laws as they move around is a pretty great reason in itself. But it's more about having a predictable setup reduces paperwork for dealers and buyers, for permits, etc. Generally accepting that since gun ownership in the USA is a fact of life, why not make it work efficiently? It'd take some of the heat and emotion out of things if gun owners felt that their legitimate needs and wants were given the respect that comes from being sensibly accounted for in legal matters, which is what happens elsewhere in the world. I'm interested in defusing the cultural antagonism as well as reducing deaths.

Harriet Vane, even though I really disagree with you on some of your contentions and whether or not I think they're necessary, I do want to say I really appreciate you (for more than just your clever Sayers-reference!) I think that you're right - it really would take a lot of the heat and emotion out of things if gun owners felt that their legitimate needs and wants were given the respect they feel they deserve.

I think the problem I'm having communicating though is that there are an awful lot of things that gun owners understand simply from having experience with the gun world, but non-gun owners don't understand. We're seeing that a lot in this thread, with the definitions over "automatic" and 'semi-automatic" for example, and also in terms of what counts as a "high capacity" magazine.

I'm at a loss in terms of how to express this in a non-charged way. Do you have any ideas? For you, what would help you in terms of getting information that gun owners have without feeling pressured or attacked?
posted by corb at 10:09 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


humanfront, forget the kickstarter campaign and get yourself a fanny pack. Many off-duty cops use one to carry while jogging.

Fanny packs aren't really a good counter-example for humanfront's "carrying a gun makes you look dorky" argument.
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:15 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


>"at least nobody will have to feel like a helpless victim anymore"

This is an illusion. The problem with allowing yourself to feel reassured that you have empowered yourself and no longer need to feel that you can be made into a helpless victim is that it simply isn't true. There are so many things in life that can easily snatch away the feeling of being in control that it is worth the effort of acknowledging, in some genuine philosophical examination, our vulnerability as human beings. We cannot make ourselves safe from all things. We must, I believe, prepare ourselves to face the truth, no matter how much we fear it, that life is fragile and we are not and cannot become invincible.

I grew up with guns. I learned to shoot. I have hunted, lived on a farm where guns were sometimes necessary and I brought up my children in a house where a loaded shotgun was always kept. There was a gun collector in the family. A friend who kept a gun under the driver's seat, calmly told my son in the passenger seat where he was sitting in front of his house, to "put your head on your knees and don't move." The friend then shot the mugger who had a gun pointed at my son's head. So I have thought about guns for many years and in many contexts.

Nothing is going to protect a human being from being vulnerable or being a victim of something in life. The feeling of being a victim is an insult exactly in proportion to the illusion one has about one's own importance. Why should one feel safe and another innocent be destroyed. Do we really believe we are all discerning and wise enough to take on the role of judge and executioner as George Zimmerman did? He was perhaps trying not to feel like a victim. Twenty states now have these so-called "stand your ground" laws. Shouldn't it be harder than that to "shoot first and ask questions afterward?"

The heritage of the West is still with us in many areas of the country, mostly sparsely populated states. Cities require a different set of rules, I think. We see that in traffic law, in zoning restriction, in many other ways. Keeping the peace is different in cities. I would argue for a much more nuanced, careful examination of our country's gun culture. We need to grow up as a people and as a nation. We can make thoughtful laws that take all areas and people into account. We can also take more care to educate people to think critically about guns, violence, anger, and emotional maturity and to teach what is required to achieve more harmony and true tolerance in our society.

When I examined myself for several years to be sure I knew if I would hesitate that fraction of a second that it would take for my gun to be snatched and used against me, I had to acknowledge that I would not take a life without thinking at least a fraction of a second. I no longer have small children in the house and I do not live in the wilderness. There are too many guns in my city and I am not a person who could fire without thought. Therefore, I don't own a gun.

Yes, I have been mugged at gun point and at knife point and, being a woman, I have also been--at two different times--raped by people who overpowered me. I have been a victim. I am a human being. I do not think I am any more or less human than the next person. I can choose how I feel about what happens to me. Even, if I cannot always avoid being a victim, I know I cannot kill without thought. I'd like it if there were very strict controls over weapons which are unnecessary for the conduct of ordinary civilian life in rural areas and even more strict controls over all firearms in densely populated areas.

I believe that handguns are weapons made to kill people and no one should have one unless they meet some pretty rigorous standards of gun custody and behavior. They should be licensed and face stiff penalties for infringing the rules. They should bear the burden of proving justification for every shooting of a person, animal or another's property--no more so called stand your ground laws. Someone walking through your neighborhood is not a trespasser. I am not the person to write gun rules but can we not find the wise and knowledgeable among us to write them?

Above all, let us please teach our children to think about the things that are hard problems in our lives and our society and to be willing to stay with those difficult but important questions without leaping to the easy answer or jumping onto the first bandwagon that sports an attractive slogan. We have to relearn that some problems are not easily solved. Feeling empowered is not the same thing as being powerful.

Too many people die because a someone sees a gun as something to make him feel better.
posted by Anitanola at 10:16 PM on July 20, 2012 [94 favorites]


I'm kind of wondering about the extent to which Americans are actually obsessed with guns. I know gun nuts exist (and pla might count as one), but almost all the people I know who own guns are hunters. They like hunting. Guns are something they hunt with, but they're not obsessed with them, anymore than carpenters are obsessed with saws.

Just about everyone I know who has guns has them because they enjoy shooting them at targets at gun ranges and etc. I don't know that it qualifies as nuttery but it does seem to be liking guns for the sake of their being guns.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:18 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


What else has worked in Canada, the UK and the rest of Europe, Australia and Asia?

Part of it is that the USA has an unusual recent history with respect to systematic, longstanding, deeply-ingrained oppression of a specific ethnic group. Racism is a serious problem almost everywhere, but I think decades of conditioning about largely imaginary bogeymen, originally intended as a way to preserve in fact a racial hierarchy that it was increasingly difficult to preserve in law, was somewhat unique to the US and resulted in persistent fear and distrust of one's neighbours, even if in many cases the explicit racism is gone.

Even the 2nd Amendment smacks of "we must remain ready and equipped to crush a slave revolt", and the maddening downside of a constitution is that apparently people develop a lazy attitude in which all of the in-the-trenches-with-the-first-principles thinking needed to have a functioning society is deemed to have been done for them in 1791 (in the case of the 2A), and that the ultimate test of the collective response to some problem is now just whether or not it's consistent with THE WORD. I'm not sure that constitutions are treated as so holy in other countries that have them.

(Practically this means that, yeah, gun insurance would seemingly be hard. The health insurance mandate survived "as a tax" and, upthread, it was mentioned that the tools of exercise of a constitutional right (the precedent is ink and paper) are untaxable for constitutional reasons, or something, so the excellent idea of drowning gun ownership in liability insurance might well be impossible just because of the obsession with precedent and constitutionality over a more evidence-based approach to governance.)

Other deeply-ingrained fragments of history include the fact that the US was a pretty rural place until recently, and I'd imagine that a reasonable chunk of the population owned guns for legitimate subsistence reasons far into the 19th century, or even later. I'd say something about the role of guns in stealing the place from its original inhabitants, but that happened here in Canada*, too, so maybe it's less of a cultural factor for some reason.

So I think some of the resistance to gun control comes from deeply ingrained cultural features that aren't present elsewhere, and it would unfortunately be hard to implement sane policies. Also, as I said upthread, I'd to some extent question the legitimacy of certain such policies given the way that past and current US governments have played seriously fast and loose with civil liberties that are way more clearly legitimate than the right to own guns.

*Before anyone jumps on me for talking shit about the US from outside, or whatever, I did grow up there...
posted by kengraham at 10:20 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


marble : I haven't seen anyone question this statistic yet, so I am doing it now. Do you have a cite for this?

Good on you! I actually got my math backwards on that one. Not 2-to-1, but 1-to-2 (a bit less, actually - a bit over 0.4% per year, so 40% if you live to see 100).

As for a cite, Will the FBI itself suffice?

Still... 40%? Make fun of me for getting my numbers backward (I take my licks where deserved), but I'd still call that way to high a probability to just go whistling merrily past that dark alley...
posted by pla at 10:23 PM on July 20, 2012


Right, so get your taser or pepper spray.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:25 PM on July 20, 2012


Statistically, most people will get mugged, at the point of a gun or really nasty looking knife, twice in their lives.

Wait, what?
posted by jokeefe at 10:31 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


infinitywaltz Fanny packs aren't really a good counter-example for humanfront's "carrying a gun makes you look dorky" argument.

Except, his argument was that carrying a gun is uncomfortable and awkward as well as being unfashionable.

"The thing no gun nut wants to tell you is just how inconvenient. . .I mean carrying the gun around either concealed or openly is just awkward. A holster isn't all the comfortable." [emphasis added]

He then goes on to say, "A holster is worse than an IT utility belt from a fashion perspective. It is a bit like deciding to carry a bike helmet everywhere just in case you want to hop on a rent-a-bike. It might make you safer, but it so bulky and awkward to carry."
posted by mlis at 10:32 PM on July 20, 2012


Here's my proposed gun regulation: All gun owners must carry their guns in a purse.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:39 PM on July 20, 2012 [10 favorites]


I had no knife or gun in either [of the times I was mugged]. Somehow I made it out okay.

I guess the two guys I know who got shot during their mugging must have really been asking for it.

Seriously, can we stop with all the snark about how dangerous muggings aren't? It's nice that all you people have been so lucky with the nicely worded requests for your stuff and the perfectly reasonable behavior of your assailants, but a whole lot of other people haven't been, and there are definitely times when being armed has saved the life of some innocent person being accosted. Stop pretending that it couldn't possibly happen just because it hasn't happened to you.
posted by IAmUnaware at 10:44 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


Also, in terms of the high capacity magazine usage, it looks like the shooter was using a 100-round drum magazine, not a 20 or 30 "extended round" magazine.

So it's possible that a compromise could still be reached: 20 or 30 round magazines could still be unrestricted, while potentially inquiring as to reasons why someone might need a 100 round magazine. (Which, as a pro-gun advocate, I cannot personally conceive of needing even /in/ a military context, unless I was being overrun.)
posted by corb at 10:55 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Thanks, corb, I appreciate that. We don't have to agree, but having a nice sensible debate is always fun :) That said, I need to get some work done today so after this comment I'll let others have their say.

I will say that the distinctions between different types of guns is actually the most boring part of the discussion for me - as with any hobby, only hobbyists care about the details (let me tell you about knitting yarn types sometime! keep several hours free! it's totes fun, honest!). I mentioned Slap*Happy's capacity distinction because it made sense to me, but if responsible gun advocates (i.e. not the NRA) come up with some other categorisation that prevents people from having military-powered weapons for hunting or target-shooting or self-defence, I'd just fall in line and give it my full support.

I'm not only pro-gun-control, I'm Australian, which means that a lot of the gun world info you talk about is doubly unusual to me. I probably shouldn't even put too much into this discussion because of that, but I hoped an outsider might be able to bring the conversation to a less hypothetical level. And I care very much about my MeFite friends - I hate to think of any of you being in that theatre, or being attacked, or anything like that.

But it's also worth noting that gun advocates such as yourself often display a lack of knowledge of the alternatives out there in the world. In this respect, I'm reminded again of the health care debate in the US, or the college sports issue (thinking about the discussion in the Sandusky/Paterno thread). You're so steeped in the culture that you can't imagine the alternatives. And so your (not you, corb, specifically) goal looks like you want to increase gun ownership, while the rest of the world has found that reducing it really *does* make things better.
posted by harriet vane at 11:00 PM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


In 1139 Pope Innocent II banned the use of crossbows against Christians.

That seems fair, as long as there's also a ban on using six-pointed ninja stars against Jews.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


Sorry, I really should be working, but one thing in Australia which I find quite good is that if I want to get into target-shooting as a hobby, I need to join a club. I can't just buy a gun and set up some targets out in the bush. Again, bringing gun users together into a community instead of letting them become lone wolves with odd ideas festering in their heads. I think it's got benefits beyond basic gun control, and is more about creating a culture that's actually worth participating in.
posted by harriet vane at 11:04 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


In 1139 Pope Innocent II banned the use of crossbows against Christians.

That seems fair, as long as there's also a ban on using six-pointed ninja stars against Jews.


And crescent axes against Muslims.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 11:06 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


The thing no gun nut wants to tell you is just how inconvenient and dorky it is to carry. I don't mean the permit or training is a hassle. I mean carrying the gun around either concealed or openly is just awkward. A holster isn't all the comfortable. You could out it it a bag, but then what if you leave your gun somewhere. A holster is worse than an IT utility belt from a fashion perspective. It is a bit like deciding to carry a bike helmet everywhere just in case you want to hop on a rent-a-bike. It might make you safer, but it so bulky and awkward to carry.

This, a thousand times this. Even modern small ultralight guns are still heavy and awkward to carry. You can get a sense of it by taking a staple gun (or even just an office stapler) and tucking it into your belt behind your hip. Not too bad for walking around the room, right? Now try sitting in your car for a long drive, hugging your coworker's spouse, or bending down to help that sweet little old lady pick up her oranges. If you had to, you could get used to it, but it's not comfortable.

I'm not sure what your point is, pla. Even adjusted for population, the US has the 12th highest rate of firearm-related deaths in the world. (Per Wikipedia.)

That's an interesting chart. I would have guessed the US would have been higher on that list than it was, and some of the European countries were higher than I would have guessed, too.

But it's also worth noting that gun advocates such as yourself often display a lack of knowledge of the alternatives out there in the world. In this respect, I'm reminded again of the health care debate in the US, or the college sports issue (thinking about the discussion in the Sandusky/Paterno thread). You're so steeped in the culture that you can't imagine the alternatives. And so your (not you, corb, specifically) goal looks like you want to increase gun ownership, while the rest of the world has found that reducing it really *does* make things better.

I've lived in places far higher than the US on that chart of gun violence, and places far lower. There is a long and very complex history to the US's relationship with guns, and solutions to violence here need to acknowledge and deal with the complexity of that history. Again, as has been mentioned repeatedly, the problem here is not the level of gun ownership, it's the place of violence in our society. (And looking again at that chart of gun violence, many of the places with horrifyingly high rates of gun deaths -- many times that of the US -- have long had incredibly strict gun policies and low legal gun ownership rates. Just having strict rules won't automatically get you good results.)
posted by Forktine at 11:09 PM on July 20, 2012


NYC is straight up insane in terms of allowing people to protect themselves. It is that, more than anything else, that makes me feel unsafe here.

I don't even live there, but I've lived for a few recent years in New Orleans (where I was never mugged, for the record), and .. dude. Dude!!!

Seriously, you have it far, far easier in re to crime there than the residents of most major cities, as far as violent crimes go. I'm talking basic statistics here, not what your perception is.
posted by raysmj at 11:09 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


The argument that 'had someone in the theatre been carrying, their intervention would have mitigated the damage' is speculative and seems to address the least effective moment of intervention. When Holmes entered the theatre, it was already too late for any practical effective intervention to occur.

Surely, the chain of events that culminated in this tragedy offered earlier opportunities to disrupt the perpetrator. My neuroscientist acquaintance posts this academic view. To my mind, this avenue of investigation is now more than ever culturally necessary.

Contemporary American society seems to generate these tragedies pretty often. All the gun talk (pro & con), while cathartic, is ultimately misdirected. It's the 'mental health' talk and the 'vacuous, isolating culture' talk and the 'scarcity of mental health resources' talk that might ultimately create some better outcomes, in my view.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:17 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


(And looking again at that chart of gun violence, many of the places with horrifyingly high rates of gun deaths -- many times that of the US -- have long had incredibly strict gun policies and low legal gun ownership rates. Just having strict rules won't automatically get you good results.)

Someone said far upstream on this thread that in examining US gun culture and gun violence, we also need to examine and solve the social instability that causes people to feel unsafe. I think I tend to agree in a sense. I don't necessarily agree on many proposed solutions to said instability, but I think that there are a lot of people feeling as though they don't trust the society they live in, or their fellow neighbors. Often this is justified. This may also be why more rural areas, with less instability, don't have problems with gun violence, even given the larger amount of guns.

Seriously, you have it far, far easier in re to crime there than the residents of most major cities, as far as violent crimes go. I'm talking basic statistics here, not what your perception is.

If you look at this in terms of statistics for the city as a whole, sure. If you look at NYC as a patchwork of tiny neighborhoods, many of which are high crime and badly policed (such as Brownsville, for example), there are some intensely, intensely high crime areas, even given statistical rather than anecdotal analysis.
posted by corb at 11:17 PM on July 20, 2012


> > and gun insurance is a simple way to make that happen.

> Is there any organization or campaign working on this as a national issue?


We more or less came around to the idea of gun insurance at the end of this MeFi thread. I confess that that thread and this one are the only times I have heard that specific idea.

I think it's a good idea and wouldn't be too surprised if others had come up with this or similar ideas (like the idea of a gun tax that would go to cover the expenses of gun victims). I would love to hear about it if some group is pushing it, but I don't know of any group that is.

I think gun insurance could be done constitutionally in the U.S. You could tie it to things like gun purchase and/or sales, it could be required as part of licensing, it could be required at shooting ranges and for the purchase of hunting licenses.

Ideas like this could be piloted in cities and urban areas where there is significant support for gun control (that's where gun control tends to be the highest in the U.S., and despite the constitution, various ways have been found to reduce access to guns--so more can be found).

Undoubtedly some experimentation would be required to figure out just how to work around constitutional restrictions, but I think it could be done. It could be implemented as a tax, for instance--surely federal, state, and local governments all have the right to put a tax on guns.
posted by flug at 11:20 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Again, as has been mentioned repeatedly, the problem here is not the level of gun ownership, it's the place of violence in our society.

Well, yes, I agree - that's why I think looking at the cultural issues surrounding this in other countries is worth a look too, and suggested health care reform and campaign finance reform. But in the meantime, why not try a few steps back from the precipice, even if it doesn't solve everything?

Also, the countries ahead of the US on that table are not what I would consider happy places to live.
posted by harriet vane at 11:26 PM on July 20, 2012


The getting mugged conversation is pretty far afield but I guess I was "mugged" three times and was threatened with a gun once. For the record I was born and raised in New York.

Twice nobody asked for anything, they just punched the shit out of me and took my stuff. These were more like attacks where they just happened to rob me as well. I was also mugged at gunpoint, I was pretty young and was probably just the only person around late at night. The dude didn't seem hostile or even that into it so I said something like " sorry man, I don't have any money either" and he sort of sighed and walked off. The other time I was threatened with a gun it was a confrontation like you see in the movies, where kids are shouting at each other and someone pulls a gun out. All in all I can back up the guy unthread that said that when he was mugged they never asked for his wallet, just took his shit.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:37 PM on July 20, 2012


someone in a fully-armed theater would have lucked out.
In a fully armed theater? SO now you've gone from we need one person with a gun to we need everyone to have a gun. Plus it's just incredibly ridiculous to imagine okay one guy opens fire and then every single person in the theater tries to shoot him? All of them? You would end up with a lot more then 12 corpses. It's beyond absurd.
Statistically, most people will get mugged, at the point of a gun or really nasty looking knife, twice in their lives.
That's just completely false. The robbery rate is about 133/100,000 and only about half of those take place on a street. So you'd have to live 1,400 years to be mugged once, and almost 3,000 years to be mugged twice at the current rate.

And you're complaining about other people's grasp of statistics. Ridiculous. You say people have no reason to worry on the one hand about gun deaths because they're rare, and yet you're terrified about other crimes, which are also rare and want to shoot people who do them. You're willing to move across the country to somewhere you can carry a gun legally, but not just move to somewhere with low crime rates.

It's totally delusional and detached from reality. And the fact that people who want to carry guns are usually this delusional is all the more reason to be against it. If people who wanted to carry guns all seemed rational and sensible, it would be one thing. But if you ever talk to them they all seem totally nuts, and seem to think they live in an action movie universe where danger lurks around any corner and they'd be able to take down a gunman with full body armor in a crowded theater - Or fantasize about a theater full of people carrying concealed weapons as if most people even want to carry a weapon on them 24/7. The reality is most people would hate to live in a society where they actually had to carry a weapon on them all the time. They wouldn't go to the movies if they thought they might get shot or have to kill someone just to do it.

Even if handgun ownership was mandatory and carrying completely unregulated, only a few paranoid nutjobs would be armed in a typical theater.
I've been wondering for hours if James Holmes isn't one of Mefi's own.
I've read he has a very low profile online, at least under his own name. No facebook or twitter. He could have pseudonymous accounts around the web, and that seems likely, but who knows.
Except that as stated above, people will be mugged for just those things. In the last year, I've witnessed three mugging incidents. Over smartphones and wallets and stuff that yes, is just what every middle class person might own, but there are also an awful lot of people that are not middle class.
When did society decide that it's reasonable to kill people in order to protect you iphone from getting stolen anyway? I realize that if you are being mugged, it's a very dangerous situation, but the idea that it's somehow worth killing someone over your smartphone is a little messed up.
I would rather kill a guy than give him my wallet in response to his threat of violence. Yes. Absolutely, 100 percent.
I think most people would see that as completely insane. That's the difference between gun nuts and those who aren't: we don't want to kill people. Killing another human being is something that we think should be avoided unless someone else's life is seriously in danger. Now obviously there is a potential that someone might get killed in a mugging. However, saying that you'd rather kill someone then give up your iPHone is, well, not normal I don't think.
Tasers are not legal to carry for private use, even if I had considered it.
Uh, yes they are. They're not even regulated. You can buy them online
There are significantly more steps and levels of difficulty to making a bomb out of household chemicals than there are to grabbing a gun and shooting things. This is why there is a lot more gun violence than bomb violence in the world. I am not making this up.
Yeah, that's ridiculous. You can always machine your own guns if you want. All you need is some good steel and a CNC router. (in fact, here's a youtube video showing how to mill an AR-15 lower receiver (here he is shooting it). People can make guns and they can make explosives. But it's a lot harder to buy a finished bomb then is to buy a finished gun.

The fact that something is possible to DIY is not a good argument for it not being regulated.

This guy might have been skilled enough to make his own gun, but a lot of spree killers aren't that bright.
As for a cite, Will the FBI itself suffice?
Did you even read your link? I looked at the 2009 stats earlier. The rate of robberies was 133/100k, only half were on streets/roads (i.e a 'mugging')
posted by delmoi at 11:46 PM on July 20, 2012 [18 favorites]


Forktine: And looking again at that chart of gun violence, many of the places with horrifyingly high rates of gun deaths -- many times that of the US -- have long had incredibly strict gun policies and low legal gun ownership rates. Just having strict rules won't automatically get you good results.
I'm not sure that's the case. Looking again at the Wikipedia page, the countries ahead of the US are:

1. South Africa
2. Colombia
3. El Salvador
4. Jamaica
5. Honduras
6. Guatemala
7. Swaziland
8. Brazil
9. Estonia
10. Panama
11. Mexico


America is the first "developed nation" on the list (with 4.14 gun homicides per 100 000 people per year) until you hit Finland at 17. And with Finland it's nearly all suicides. The next nation on the list is Northern Ireland, with 5.24 gun homicides per 100 000 people per year. So the US has twice as many homicides per capita as Northern Ireland.

Mind you, America's neighbours on the list, Mexico at #11 and the Philippines #13, both have more than twice as many gun deaths as the US. But I don't think Mexico has very strict enforcement of gun laws. Not sure about the Philippines.
posted by Kevin Street at 11:54 PM on July 20, 2012 [6 favorites]


Tasers are not legal to carry for private use, even if I had considered it.

Uh, yes they are. They're not even regulated. You can buy them online


Because I am tired of repeating this for people who think I'm just making this up for the funsies: yes, tasers are illegal in New York City for citizens to own. And New York City is one of those places that makes gun owners nervous whenever anywhere else in the country starts talking about restrictive laws.

Honestly, I think half the problem with arguing about gun control laws is that a ton of people think immediately only of their own situation and locality, and think that all laws across the country must be similar to their own. Because they are able to reasonably get concealed carry permits, then everywhere must be like that. Because they're able to carry tasers, everyone must be able to.

This is emphatically not the case.

However, saying that you'd rather kill someone then give up your iPHone is, well, not normal I don't think.

This is a matter of perspective. For many people and in many areas, the notion that it is better to tamely and submissively give your property to someone else because they have threatened you and asked for it is completely foreign and definitely not normal. "Normal" is relative, by way of its very definition.

It would be nice if people could understand that different areas and cultures have different norms, without making that equal "nutty." I don't call people who would rather give their wallets over than harm someone "pacifist nuts." I call them people who make different choices than I do.

It'd be nice if we could try talking to each other instead of past each other.
posted by corb at 11:58 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


Statistically, most people will get mugged, at the point of a gun or really nasty looking knife, twice in their lives.

As others have been saying, this is nowhere near true. There are about 120 violent robberies per 100,000 population in the US every year. The "average American" thus has a 1 - 120/100,000 = 0.9988 chance of avoiding mugging each year. Now, it's probably not accurate on an individual level to assume that a person's chances of being mugged one year are independent of their mugging chances the next year, but on a population level, I'd guess this assumption is OK. In this case, the odds of avoiding mugging 80 years in a row are
(1 - 120/100000)^80 = 91%.
posted by zeptoweasel at 12:01 AM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


I went and saw it. Fuck that guy.
posted by Artw at 12:23 AM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


Ah crap, this is what I get doing math after midnight.

Northern Ireland has about 20% more gun homicides per capita than the US.

The US is #18 on the list when you sort it for gun related homicides, and not total gun related deaths like before. It's preceded by

1. South Africa
2. Colombia
3. El Salvador
4. Jamaica
5. Honduras
6. Guatemala
7. Swaziland
8. Brazil
9. Estonia
10. Panama
11. Mexico
12. Philippines
13. Estonia
14. Paraguay
15. Nicaragua
16. Northern Ireland
17. Zimbabwe

So the first "developed nation" is Northern Ireland, then the US. But the same general relation still holds, since the next developed nation is the Czech Republic at #25. And their homicide rate per capita is less than half that of the US. Everybody else in Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, all below the US with gun murder rates that are much smaller.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:24 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


Because I am tired of repeating this for people who think I'm just making this up for the funsies: yes, tasers are illegal in New York City for citizens to own.

My comment on the pepper spray got deleted before, but could you cite me the legislation on pepper spray concentrations that are giving you trouble? I can't find them.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:36 AM on July 21, 2012




By the way, the rates used in that article are for an eight-block area of what the neighborhood is. I would guess that's either a precinct or community policing district, may or may not align with recent Census tracts. Cities don't tend to measure crime by neighborhoods, and neighborhood boundaries are popular in nature anyway, amorphous.
posted by raysmj at 12:45 AM on July 21, 2012


Whatever is believed about how easy to get a gun it is in Brownsville, the fact remains that NYC's gun laws - in Brownsville, especially in Brownsville, where stop-and-frisk has its height, still have no effect on the shootings. So the strictest gun laws in the nation cannot protect the citizens of that neighborhood and other neighborhoods.

Some might argue it's because it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Law-abiding citizens are not armed, while law-breaking citizens are overly so.

Cities may not measure crime by neighborhoods, but it's because it's to their advantage not to do so...
posted by corb at 12:50 AM on July 21, 2012


Slap*Happy writes "As explained above, automatic and semi-automatic are synonymous, despite what the fire-arms enthusiasts tell you. "

They may be synonymous with the ignorant in the same way the ignorant think a clip is the same as a magazine (a mistake made dozens of times in this very thread) but this isn't very esoteric technical jargon and people who are familiar with guns do not use those terms interchangeably. Certainly anyone who would advocate on either side of the gun control debate should be familiar with the more specific meanings of those words unless their goal is to obfuscate the issue.

jonbro writes "I am questioning why you need semi-auto at all. 'People will scream if they can't get them' seems not enough reason. I guess shooting two deer at the same time is cool. Quite truthfully, my belief that making the only allowed rifles bolt action being something that would help safety in these situations may be misplaced. I am happy to hear if that is the case."

For the same reason we need cars with more than a 30hp capable of doing 2, 3, or 4x the legal highway limit. They are fun. Target shooting with a semi automatic weapon is fun in a different way than shooting with a single shot or bolt action weapon. Think of how much safer the country would be if all cars were limited to 30 hp per tonne and were governed to 110kph or whatever the highest speed limit in the States is. Maybe even add on graduated licensing where one would be restricted to just 50kph/35mph unless you managed to qualify for a more expensive and hard to get high speed licence.

EmpressCallipygos writes "Okay, I have a question - TWICE now in this thread I've seen people say that they would have a problem with 'the government' coming to 'confiscate their weapons'. Where did the notion that gun control meant the confiscation of legally-obtained weapons come from?"

It's a common pattern. Places that move from loose gun control to restrictive gun control invariably pass through a confiscation stage (either immediate or by banning the transfer of weapons). That was the case in Canada and in the UK. Really I'm not sure how you can go from "anyone can buy a gun no questions asked for cash at a gun show" to any kind of restraint of ownership for selected groups without confiscating weapons either directly or via third party. If I'm a sociopathic weapons hoarder and you pass a law saying I can't own a gun how do you reconcile my gun owing status with the law without confiscating my guns?

lester's sock puppet writes "there may be a protracted legal fight to make the theater pay for care as the gunman allegedly entered a door that was supposed to be locked."

This seems really shaky to me. It would be different if the door was locked to protect patrons (like say an exit door on a day care) but theatres lock doors to protect the theatre's bottom line. Certainly I've never felt that anyplace with access limited by a simple cash transaction would be any safer than the street out front. This whack job could have stormed the lobby and the results would have been the same.

Davenhill writes "Make gun companies financially liable for gun deaths and let the free market sort out the details."

Let's also make automobile companies responsible for auto deaths, alcohol companies responsible for deaths linked to alcohol, publishing companies responsible for deaths related to books, electronic companies responsible for losses due to piracy, etc. etc. This is a pretty slippery slope that one should be afraid of embarking on. Gun companies are selling a legal product that can be used in many legals ways and I'd guess the vast majority of fire arm use is legal.

"But is it really that crazy to argue for a maximum of two guns per person,"

Two guns is totally inadequate for anyone who is even a semi serious all season hunter. The barest minimum is three (shot gun for birds, .22LR for rabbits and similar size animals, and a medium size CF like a .308 for big stuff) and even that is pushing it. You really should have two shotguns (a different gun for game birds than for geese) and at least two centre fire rifles (a smaller one for deer and a larger one for elk/moose/bear) in addition to the .22lr. Sure you can get by with the three or fewer if you don't go after everything but there are plenty of people who hunt all that stuff. And it'll be more expensive because you'll need to use a heavier gun on lighter targets than is strictly required. Pluss you'll need a different gun (or two or three) for target shooting.

pla writes "You haven't seen many of the sub-2lbs semis and under-the-clothes holsters then, have you?

"Yes, it certainly takes some getting used to. Yes, you need to learn not to reach for the top shelf on your carrying-side. But you all but forget you have it after a week of carrying it."


I doubt it, at least in my case. I carry a ~250 gram radio around 8 hours a day for work for the past year and it it a total pain. The weight is unbalancing. It gets hooked on things. And if I clip it to my belt it ramps up the difficulty in using the toilet.
posted by Mitheral at 1:00 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


It's not to their advantage. It's too damn hard and the perceptions of what their boundaries are change (I lived in one in New Orleans that had a good and bad part, which as one friend told me could define by lowering your voice, to say you lived in the not-as-well-off one, or spoken normally to say you lived in the better one--at the same time it could've been a part of two other smaller neighborhoods, or one larger district, that one being Mid-City, for those who care), you probably won't learn much from it anyway, for a variety of reasons. Anyway, law-abiding citizens are not being shot en masse in the better neighborhoods, right? Murders are down, from what I've read over time, even in larger districts of NYC and Brooklyn, ones that have areas you can target as being high-crime, from what they were in the '80s and '70s.

Arming the "law-abiding" citizens won't matter much either, given the high levels of economic and societal dysfunction within them. Maybe it'll just mean that more guns get stolen and sent back on the streets. Economic and community development, public health, education, etc., are where the answers lie there, ultimately, not more law and order crackdowns OR gun laws loosened on the grounds of getting more guns to law-abiding citizens.
posted by raysmj at 1:03 AM on July 21, 2012


"Statistically, most people will get mugged, at the point of a gun or really nasty looking knife, twice in their lives."

"I actually got my math backwards on that one ... a bit over 0.4% per year, so 40% if you live to see 100)."


"Most people will get robbed twice" to "most people will get robbed never" is a fairly large change in claims, however you are still wrong. For one, most people don't live to 100 or get mugged when they are 2. And the 2010 rate appears to be 0.12% (122.7 per 100,000) instead of 0.4%. This would put the average lifetime chance of getting robbed at something like 8-10%. And, as noted, if we restrict the definition to street-type robbery even that estimate needs to be halved. And the same link indicates that about half of robberies don't involve a gun or a knife. So the original claim continues to deteriorate in significant ways...

Of course, crime rates fluctuate, and these estimates could go anywhere in the future. Here's a paper that calculated lifetime probability of victimization about 25 years ago, when American crime was much higher than it is now. The author concluded there was a 30% chance of getting robbed ever, and a 5% chance of getting robbed twice.
posted by dgaicun at 1:39 AM on July 21, 2012 [8 favorites]


Mod note: Comment deleted. For the nth time, don't make things personal. Read the note below the comment field, and try not to make a difficult conversation even more angry and hostile.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:41 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Argh, #9 is actually Brazil. Doesn't change anything, though.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:17 AM on July 21, 2012


Let's also make automobile companies responsible for auto deaths, alcohol companies responsible for deaths linked to alcohol, publishing companies responsible for deaths related to books, electronic companies responsible for losses due to piracy, etc. etc. This is a pretty slippery slope that one should be afraid of embarking on. Gun companies are selling a legal product that can be used in many legals ways and I'd guess the vast majority of fire arm use is legal.

None of your analagous "products" are designed to kill, or are built to destroy life. Cars, booze, books, really? Death and grievous injury are not the point of those things and they are the point of guns. Factor in that guns are concealable, damaged individuals have relatively easy access to them, recession pressure, drug abuse, mental illness, fragmented families, on and on ... well, it seems to be a pretty hollow "right" to defend when we accept the kind of collateral damage as occurred in Aurora.
posted by thinkpiece at 2:47 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


"You can get a gun like a box of Pampers"
vs
"the strictest gun laws in the nation"

How can both of these statements be true? Unless the strictest gun laws in the nation are in fact remarkably lax, and just stricter by comparison with places that hand guns out for free in cereal boxes.

I'm not familiar with stop and frisk laws, but a quick googling makes them sound more like a way for police to harass people they think look suspicious than an actual method of gun control. Like the TSA of gun enforcement. And it's not on the list of 'methods other countries use to control unlawful gun usage'. Sorry to harp on that, but dammit, if what you're doing isn't working, then it's time to look at what has.

And re: people assuming that permissions for tasers, pepper spray, concealed carry etc are the same everywhere... well we get back to the standardisation I mentioned earlier ::waggles eyebrows hopefully::
posted by harriet vane at 3:05 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


Malor: What holds this country together is mutual respect and tolerance, and if you refuse to tolerate people having guns, well, they're heavily armed, and they're not going to tolerate you trying to take them, or much of anything else you have to say, either.

I have zero tolerance for irresponsible gun-toting idiots*, and I think you'd find that most of them are actually cowards with false bravado, anyway. Lots of bark as long as there's no danger, but very little bite at the first sign of trouble.

Result: highly unpleasant.

In contrast to the current state of things? Highest murder rate in the first world? Highest per capita imprisonment rate in the first world?

* I don't think all gun-owners are irresponsible idiots.
posted by syzygy at 3:12 AM on July 21, 2012


corb:OmieWise, why do you keep accusing people of racism or racist dog whistles for supporting gun rights? The person who wrote that didn't so much as mention race once in her statement.

Keep accusing? I don't know what you're talking about. But the beauty of a dog whistle is that you can introduce the topic without using the words, and with deniability. So you can talk about a young kid dressed in a hoodie instead of a blqck hoodlum, or you can talk about crackheads instead of talking about scary black hoodlums. But you knew that. I think you know all about racist dog whistles.
posted by OmieWise at 3:46 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


Saying that the folks with guns will get mad and shoot us if we try to pass laws that take away their guns is actually an argument IN FAVOR OF passing laws that take away their guns.

Just sayin'.
posted by kyrademon at 3:49 AM on July 21, 2012 [11 favorites]


There have been plenty of public spree killings in the USA over the years, and I can't personally recall any that were stopped by heroic gun-toting citizens. Of course, I could be wrong.

corb: You are wrong. Here's one that also happened in Aurora, CO.
Nope, the shooter was not heavily armed, and police say he didn't appear to be targeting the church, specifically. In other words, he was not prepared to go on a shooting spree - no AR-15 with 100-round drum. He had a handgun and shot (and killed) one person before an ex police officer shot him. He may have been under the heavy influence of alcohol or drugs at the time, as well, as he had a slow motion car accident that stretched hundreds of feet before the church where the car came to rest - simply not comparable in any way.

BobbyVan:
New Life Church shootings (2007)
Nope - the person who ended the shooting was working as a security guard at the church, and was not a random, armed person carrying a concealed weapon. Try again.

Appalachian School of Law shooting (2002)
Nope - the shooter was subdued by an unarmed former marine and police officer after the shooter had already dropped his (only) firearm, which reportedly had no more bullets in it. He reportedly had two additional, albeit empty clips with him - i.e. he was done shooting, already. Try again.
posted by syzygy at 3:54 AM on July 21, 2012 [17 favorites]


corb - Good faith question: I read your linked article about the police officer and the gunfight that ensued, and read it in the context of the discussion re: limiting ammunition. I am a bit confused about your stance because the article, as written, seems to be outlining an exceptional circumstance, and I doubt it would have been written at all if it were not, except in the context of law enforcement instruction. Even then, the anecdote clearly outlines a case in which a law enforcement officer was attempting to stop suspect from running away/evading capture, which is rather different from most self-defense scenarios, unless "self-defense" is just a pretext for the killing of the assailant.

It just strikes me as having a moth problem, but gearing up to fight Mothra. Besides which the above case actually really underscores the impracticality of firearms as a personal defense weapon - you shoot a guy 22 times and he's still shooting at you, if you were a normal person without a police radio that's just two dead bodies at the end of the day.
posted by Tikirific at 4:28 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


A whole new market for XRay machines just like all the cinema halls in New Delhi.
posted by infini at 4:40 AM on July 21, 2012


> I would simply have been stabbed and robbed if I hadn't been armed that day.

That is total BS. I'm a 25+ year New Yorker, I've been mugged once and had another couple of mugging attempts, but more, I read the newspapers and the crime statistics.

Yes, there are a tiny number of psychopathic muggers, but most of them are mugging to get money and have an interest in not getting caught. They know that if they mug you and you walk off, you might not call the police, and if you do, the police won't really care - but if they stab you there's suddenly dozens of police cars on the scene.

Your chance of being seriously injured during a mugging are very small, and more, a majority of those injuries start when the muggee puts up a fight.

When I was mugged, I wouldn't have been hurt at all if I hadn't chased after the muggers yelling threats, and even then one of the guys simply waited round the corner and punched me fairly accurately in the head and left, and I was fine a couple of days later.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:46 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


I agree that a fanny pack is not a solution. You are much more likely to get mugged wearing a fanny pack. The mugger will make you hand over the pack and then you'll be really screwed. Also fanny packs make you a victim of a fashion crime.
posted by humanfont at 5:01 AM on July 21, 2012 [4 favorites]


1. Many pro-gun-control arguments (some gestured at above) presuppose that, if you are attacked by a deranged murderer, you are better off unarmed than armed. (Any argument that points to the fact that an armed citizen defending himself might hit someone else, or that two such people might shoot each other, or whatever, in effect presupposes that. Such arguments must presuppose that any harm done by armed responders in such incidents will be worse than the harm done in their absence, other wise they are irrelevant.) But this presupposition is obviously false.*

There are tough questions here, and having a lot of firearms in the culture comes with a cost. But let's not inject the irrational argument above into this mess.

2. I have to say, I'm always stunned to see that so many people argue e.g. that being mugged isn't so bad if you don't resist, or that you just give them your money and go on your way. It's not that I don't think this is a position worth considering, but it strikes me that this is a demeaning way to live and to think of oneself. It's rather like allowing yourself to be bullied.

3. I'm also astonished by the strange criticisms of people who arm themselves, to the effect that they have fantasies of heroism. Most do not, but they also don't want to be victims. They tend to be people who clearly perceive the duty to resist evil. They may have other problems, they may do more harm than good...I'm not committing myself on those points. But it's weird and sick to characterize them as being weird and sick.

*I'm reminded of the stupidest thing I've ever seen on television, Diane Sawyer's anti-firearm hit piece "If I only had a gun," in which she sets up the worst and most intellectually dishonest experiment in the history of the world to try to prove (or "prove"), in effect, that if you are attacked by a maniacal killer, you are better off being unarmed than armed. Utter insanity.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 5:21 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Gun control/No gun control... my burning question remains... why is the US at the top of the world in these sorts of loner mass killings? And it seems to be getting worse.
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:36 AM on July 21, 2012


Of course, the odds of you being attacked by a deranged murder are significantly smaller than that of being accosted by a mugger with some sense of rational (if antisocial) self-interest.
posted by stevis23 at 5:38 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Omniwise, you're kind of going a little far there.

And according to the statements I'm hearing on the morning news, Holmes obtained his guns legally. It strikes me that when it comes to gun control, all that need be done is not adding NEW laws, but more consistently enforcing EXISTING laws. I don't have a problem with people owning guns after a background check.

Enforcing laws at a gun show is a loophole - and I understand the difficulty is that background checks take a few days to process, by which time the gun show is over. But could not the gun show point-of-sale simply be a place to place an order, and then the gun seller ships the gun along later once the background check is complete? Kind of like they do with new cars, I would assume (you go to the car shop and place your order and pick it up later, it's not like you place your order and they go in the back and insta-grow your car for you). Or, could a generic background check not be made available for people to apply for BEFORE the gun show, culminating in some kind of certification that buyers must present to gun show sellers?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:51 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


> I would simply have been stabbed and robbed if I hadn't been armed that day.

That is total BS.


You think he yelled "jab him" as a feint? Why not just say, "Give me your wallet"?

Also, punches to the head can be fatal/crippling fairly easily. Don't downplay the violence done to you.
posted by adamdschneider at 5:51 AM on July 21, 2012


This picture is starting to show up in my Facebook feed now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:03 AM on July 21, 2012 [8 favorites]


Killing someone over a phone or $50 may be "normal" to some people, but that doesn't make it any less disturbing. In fact, I think it might be a pretty good illustration of why there are so many gun deaths in the US. Some Americans value other people's lives less than their phone, so of course they're going to go for their gun faster than someone in another country that didn't have this twisted culture.
posted by Mavri at 6:04 AM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


For those interested in how the ideas and enforcement of civilian gun possession varies internationally, I'd suggest the last chapter, "Balancing Acts: Regulation of Civilian Firearm Possession" (free pdf downloads of all chapters) from Small Arms Survey 2011: States of Security .

"You can get a gun like a box of Pampers"
vs
"the strictest gun laws in the nation"

How can both of these statements be true?


It's actually not quite true -- you can rent guns, but you have to buy pampers. And (importantly), you can buy the diapers legally, but buying or renting a gun there will be strictly illegal. The point the person is making, though, is that the strict regulations haven't created a lack of gun access for at the criminals. (There were some interesting articles, the subject of an FPP here I think, recently about the phenomenon of shared "community" guns, kept in public areas. Partly that's because of the risk from the stop and frisk laws, and partly it does reflect the increased cost and decreased supply of guns, that they become more like car-pooling.)

Enforcing laws at a gun show is a loophole - and I understand the difficulty is that background checks take a few days to process

No, it's a straightforward political loophole. The FBI background check, as detailed above, takes maybe fifteen minutes, from filling out the form to getting the ok. So on the one hand it's just a reflection of the power of the gun lobby, but on the other hand it's also a pragmatic reflection of the fact that sales of used guns between private people are entirely unregulated, so what is the point of requiring background checks inside the gun show when you could buy the same used gun from the same individual, without a background check and totally legally, out in the parking lot?
posted by Forktine at 6:08 AM on July 21, 2012


> why is the US at the top of the world in these sorts of loner mass killings? And it seems to be getting worse.

Is it though? Wikipedia's list of rampage killers doesn't really suggest that that's the case. (I'm not claiming though that an incomplete list on Wikipedia is anything like an unbiased sample.) The US is a large anglophone country, so incidents that happen here get a lot of coverage in the English-language press, but they certainly happen elsewhere (see Oceana in particular). It's also likely that the relatively easy availability of firearms in the US leads to higher casualties in such incidents compared to other anglophone countries.
posted by nangar at 6:15 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


> It's not that I don't think this is a position worth considering, but it strikes me that this is a demeaning way to live and to think of oneself. It's rather like allowing yourself to be bullied.

"Demeaning" is not a nice word.

I've told the following story on Metafilter before.

I have a temper (as you might have guessed from me chasing the muggers screaming at them).

Years ago I was walking through Times Square - I was wearing a suit and feeling pretty dapper. Suddenly, someone came up and punched me in the jaw and knocked off the tiniest tip of a canine tooth (I can't even see it in the mirror but I felt it instantly).

I turned around, prepared to kill someone, and it was a homeless man. "You bumped into me and didn't apologize!" he said. I knew this to be untrue as I'm a little hypersensitive about bumping into people.

But he was disgusting. He wanted to fight, I felt he wanted us to roll in the street on Times Square. I didn't want to touch him. And then I thought to myself, "If I walk away from this, I still have a great life, he still has his terrible life, and I've learned a lesson - never get into a fight with someone who has nothing to lose."

The mugger might not have "nothing to lose" but he has a lot less to lose than I do. I have a great life. Would I want to risk it over a few dollars I will never miss? No way. This is not a "demeaning" attitude, it's a mature, responsible attitude - I control my anger and reduce my risk.

I would never have been mugged in the first place, frankly, if I hadn't been in a very low state with my guard down. The other two mugging attempts were easily and entertainingly avoided, one with an umbrella, one simply by walking away briskly (and then giving the guy the finger when I reached a safe area).
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 6:15 AM on July 21, 2012 [18 favorites]


Has anyone seen confirmation of the supposition that the booby-trapped apartment and call phone call were part of the plot?

Namely, that the loud music was started by a timer with the hopes that a noise complaint would lead to police forcing their way in, causing an explosion to draw all the first responders to that location? Then, when he opened fire in the theater, there would not have been anywhere near the number of responders available and many more would have perished?

I heard someone (sorry can't remember who) also report that the "phone call" he received was in fact an alert of some sort that let him know that the apartment bomb had by that point NOT gone off... so he chose to continue anyway. ??
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 6:28 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


To all the commenters who advocate for gun ownership as a means of protecting your possessions from would-be thieves: perhaps by insisting that your possessions are so valuable that violence is justified in defending them, you are sending the message to the rest of the world that violence must also be justified in obtaining them.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:34 AM on July 21, 2012 [13 favorites]


delmoi : Did you even read your link? I looked at the 2009 stats earlier. The rate of robberies was 133/100k

Yeah, I guess we can just ignore the rapes and outright murder, since I did specifically say "mugging". Who'd want to defend themselves against those?
posted by pla at 6:35 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's also likely that the relatively easy availability of firearms in the US leads to higher casualties in such incidents compared to other anglophone countries.

I can see an argument for easy availability leading to more incidents, but once an incident has begun, how does easy availability lead to higher casualties?
posted by adamdschneider at 6:44 AM on July 21, 2012


ColdChef, thinking of your friend's daughter this morning and hoping her medical condition is better.

Mefi people, let's be respectful even in our disagreement. Yesterday's events should be a reminder that life is short, we are fragile, and the only thing that sometimes gets us through terrible events is kindness to each other.

Lessons from Jessica Ghawi:
I say all the time that every moment we have to live our life is a blessing. So often I have found myself taking it for granted. Every hug from a family member. Every laugh we share with friends. Even the times of solitude are all blessings. Every second of every day is a gift. After Saturday evening, I know I truly understand how blessed I am for each second I am given.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:47 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


> I can see an argument for easy availability leading to more incidents, but once an incident has begun, how does easy availability lead to higher casualties?

Not all killing sprees involve guns. I'm guessing knife attacks have fewer casualties.
posted by nangar at 6:52 AM on July 21, 2012


> how does easy availability lead to higher casualties?

Perhaps look at the current event, where the fact that the shooter had four guns, 6000 rounds of ammunition, a high-impact bullet-proof vest and tear gas certainly contributed to the high casualty rate?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 6:54 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


> > Let's also make automobile companies responsible for auto deaths, alcohol companies responsible for deaths linked to alcohol, publishing companies responsible for deaths related to books, electronic companies responsible for losses due to piracy, etc. etc. This is a pretty slippery slope that one should be afraid of embarking on. Gun companies are selling a legal product that can be used in many legals ways and I'd guess the vast majority of fire arm use is legal.

> None of your analagous "products" are designed to kill, or are built to destroy life. Cars, booze, books, really?


A better analogy is tobacco companies. They have been sued very successfully, not simply because they were selling tobacco but because of the *way* they were selling it.

If I recall, the laws protecting firearms manufacturers and sellers were enacted when a similar series of lawsuits showed signs of possibly being successful.

That is a law that could be profitably revisited as well. The goal there would not necessarily be to put the onus of every gun-related death onto the companies, but rather to encourage in a concrete way responsible advertising, distributing, and sales of firearms.

Much as we do with alcohol and tobacco companies.
posted by flug at 7:00 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


(I also doubt if the availability of particular kinds of weapons is related to the number of killing sprees, but it probably does affect the lethality of such attacks.)
posted by nangar at 7:00 AM on July 21, 2012


But he was disgusting. He wanted to fight, I felt he wanted us to roll in the street on Times Square. I didn't want to touch him. And then I thought to myself, "If I walk away from this, I still have a great life, he still has his terrible life, and I've learned a lesson - never get into a fight with someone who has nothing to lose."

Anyone who wants to argue with pla about gun control should really try to absorb the wisdom of this comment first.
posted by hermitosis at 7:22 AM on July 21, 2012 [14 favorites]


perhaps by insisting that your possessions are so valuable that violence is justified in defending them, you are sending the message to the rest of the world that violence must also be justified in obtaining them.

I am thinking the same thing. If it's "normal" to kill for a few of your material possession, then that also normalizes others who use violence to obtain those material objects. I do not respect someone who uses violence to "protect" a bunch of stuff, any more than I respect the person who uses violence to obtain those material objects.

I have a sister that was mugged with a gun to her head, about 15 years ago in DC's Georgetown. Neither of us can fathom any desire to lay a finger on a gun, or ever harm another person. Sure, losing your wallet or phone sucks, but to kill in order to protect them? That is as utterly batshit insane to me, as killing to obtain a wallet or phone. Yes it's wrong to mug someone and use or threaten violence - but I do not want to ever be responsible for ending another person's life. They can take my stuff - I can eventually replace them - if I kill them to protect my material possessions, that's it. They're dead and final. I do not want that to be on my shoulders. I am honestly astounded that people are really ok with that. Your objects are not worth more than another person's life, however wronged your feel by them.
posted by raztaj at 7:23 AM on July 21, 2012 [29 favorites]


raztaj: but I do not want to ever be responsible for ending another person's life.

Exactly. Lots of people asked me if I was getting a gun after I was attacked years ago. It was and remains completely out of the question for me.
posted by marimeko at 7:49 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


I would rather kill a guy than give him my wallet in response to his threat of violence. Yes. Absolutely, 100 percent.

And if someone's right in front of you, already pointing a gun at you, and intent on shooting you if you don't give up your wallet, you will get shot before you get to your gun.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 7:52 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


OKCorral is so yesterday.
posted by de at 7:54 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Wow a lot of misinformed people out there. So many just plain wrong statements about guns, gun types, and how guns work. It seems that most of the people using this tragedy to push a certain political agenda don't really know much about the thing of which they are afraid...imagine that. Since the volume of misinformation is so large I will pick two three things to point out.

1. Anyone can buy as fully automatic weapon...yes fully automatic. All one needs to do is get a tax stamp and register the weapon with the ATF. Of course a fully automatic AR platform will run one around $20-30,000.

2. Even if one can't get the prerequisite paperwork and money together for a fully automatic platform there are other options. These setups are called a bump fire stock, which is perfectly legal and approaches the rpm of a fully automatic.

3. Assault rifles actually are a thing and have been around since the first one of its kind. Then of course there is the most infamous of them all the AK-47.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:01 AM on July 21, 2012


"You can get a gun like a box of Pampers"
vs
"the strictest gun laws in the nation"

How can both of these statements be true? Unless the strictest gun laws in the nation are in fact remarkably lax, and just stricter by comparison with places that hand guns out for free in cereal boxes.


Primarily because it's a city of eight million people, and because police are currently not authorized to go house-to-house searching for guns. Aside from stop-and-frisk, which is touted by the police as the number one way they recover guns, the primary way illegal guns are identified is when they are used, or when someone is arrested for something else and the guns are found.

Gun control disarms law abiding citizens; it does not disarm criminals. In particular, as someone mentioned above: guns last hundreds of years with proper maintenance. Even if they stopped selling new guns everywhere tomorrow, it would still be a near impossibility to eliminate them.

I personally also think that strict gun control produces illegal gun use, rather than stops it. If it is extremely difficult to obtain a legal gun, many people who would normally not break the law will choose to own a gun illegally rather than wait years and spend thousands of dollars to get a legal gun.

Let's go down the breakdown:

Let's suppose you want to own a gun in NYC for personal self defense. You're also a law abiding citizen. You don't even have so much as a parking ticket.

What's your procedure? Well, first let's try the case that should be significantly easier: you want to carry a rifle in the home. You think it'll be easier. It's certainly way easier to aim.
The cost for the application is $140. The cost for them to fingerprint you is $94.25 (for ten minutes of work). You also need to bring your birth certificate, your original social security card, four color passport size photos. They ask you if you've ever been the subject or recipient of an order of protection, and if so, you need to explain the circumstances. (Not sure why being the victim of domestic violence puts you as a bad risk for owning a gun, though I do think it's messed up.) You also need proof of address - either a utility bill, a written lease, or a signed and notarized statement by someone who does have a utility bill that you live there. Oh, did I mention utilities don't include cellphone bills? Maybe you should get a landline, just so you can prove to the NYPD that you live in your own house. What, you only have a cellphone and an internet account? Neither of those are utilities. If you want your internet account to count, it must be "comprehensive cable, telephone, and internet."

You have to sign a consent form releasing all mental health records to the NYPD. That's right, all records of treatment. Not just "was this person confined to a mental institution" or "what's the diagnosis" but all records of whatever you may have said in confidential treatment.

You have to agree that you can sell your rifle or shotgun only to a licensed rifle dealer, to a policeman, or to a non-NYC resident.

You must not store your rifle loaded. And ammunition must be stored separately. What this means is that in the event of someone attempting to break into your home, you need to go get the weapon from the safe, and then go to the OTHER safe where you keep the ammunition. This is one of the most ridiculous requirements.

You also can't buy or sell any weapon that doesn't have a "safety-locking device", which you would think would be a safety, but would be wrong. They mean something so that only you can fire the weapon - and that's after you've already gotten it out of the required safe. Like a trigger lock or combination handle. Something that adds yet another level of complexity to the action of pulling your rifle out in order to defend your home.

Your permit only lasts for three years: after three years, you need to renew this process and pay another couple hundred dollars.

Let's say you're approved. Permits are currently taking around a year, so let's hope nothing has happened to you in that time. Now we're moving on to the great part- time to buy your weapon. Oh, well, you must buy your weapon new. For some reason, buying your weapon used from a private seller is a great crime to the NYPD, even if you send them full documentation of every part and parcel of your weapon. So tack on another several hundred dollars to the price.

Now let's look at rifles. I'm a lady with not as much arm strength as I'd like, so I'd like to get a pistol stock to help ease the burden of holding up the weapon and so I don't have to lean the magazine on anything. Oh, wait, pistol stocks are illegal for no goddamn reason. Well, moving on. I live in a small apartment, so I want to at least get a folding stock so I can get a smaller and lighter gun safe. Oh, no, wait, folding stocks are also illegal for no goddamn reason. Well, at least that's all the rules? No, the police commissioner needs to decide whether there are any additional unwritten features that make my preferred weapon "more military than sporting", so I need to tell the police what model I want and see if they'll let me. Awesome.

I also need to designate a "rifle safeguard", not for who GETS my rifles in the event of my death, but who is going to immediately go to my house, get my rifles, and SURRENDER THEM TO THE NYPD on the event of my death. Because god knows, it's not like I'd like to pass those to my kids or anything.
posted by corb at 8:02 AM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


Just to clarify some states have laws prohibiting fully automatic weapons even if the federal government allows them. So what I should have said was that if your state allows it anyone can get a fully automatic weapon.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:05 AM on July 21, 2012


Gun control disarms law abiding citizens; it does not disarm criminals.

Sure. And on Thursday afternoon, James Holmes was a law abiding citizen and not at all a criminal.
posted by raztaj at 8:07 AM on July 21, 2012 [18 favorites]


Perhaps look at the current event, where the fact that the shooter had four guns, 6000 rounds of ammunition, a high-impact bullet-proof vest and tear gas certainly contributed to the high casualty rate?

Four guns does not increase the casualty rate. In fact, the casualty rate would have been higher if he had stuck to only one gun. 6000 rounds of ammunition also do not increase the casualty rate. Do you know how heavy and bulky 6000 rounds of ammunition are? I am not sure if I personally could physically lift 6000 rounds of ammunition. The 100-round drum, maybe, but the amount of guns and ammunition this guy had at his house did not affect the casualty rate at all. Nor did the bulletproof vest affect the casualty rate - and it's things like this that make people worried, because people want to ban the bulletproof vests that can protect innocent citizens. Tear gas? Yeah, definitely, tear gas grenades are not equipment that is generally readily available to citizens as it stands. The same with smoke grenades.
posted by corb at 8:08 AM on July 21, 2012


the two black guys

Picard, his face in his palm, his brow furrowed.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 8:09 AM on July 21, 2012 [7 favorites]


Noted without comment.
posted by ColdChef at 8:10 AM on July 21, 2012 [4 favorites]


pla: Yeah, I guess we can just ignore the rapes and outright murder, since I did specifically say "mugging".

Yes, you did specifically say "mugging". You specifically said it, then spouted off incorrect statistics for the crime of mugging, not once, but twice.

It seems your first incorrect statistic was, what, at least 10 times worse than the truth, your second at least two times worse than the truth? So obviously it's time to move the goalposts to include other crimes, since the mugging thing didn't go so well for you. Disingenuous, at best.

Who was it who said, "Statistics. Most people really, really suck at it."

Oh, that's right.
posted by syzygy at 8:11 AM on July 21, 2012 [7 favorites]


You must not store your rifle loaded. And ammunition must be stored separately. What this means is that in the event of someone attempting to break into your home, you need to go get the weapon from the safe, and then go to the OTHER safe where you keep the ammunition. This is one of the most ridiculous requirements.

That's because Bloomberg doesn't want you to own a gun for protection. I had no problem with this. I owned a rifle for the sole purpose of hunting. NYC is one of the safest cities to live in. Some of the things they require you to do are very unfair and should be reformed (the utility bill was really difficult for me to obtain as a renter whose utilities were included in the rent, which seems to discriminate against non-property owners), but I don't object to having a system for rifle approval. Most people in NYC do not need a gun.

Chicago is another matter. Here I have felt the kind of fear that drives me to contemplate owning a weapon for the sole purpose of possibly having to kill someone. I have contemplated owning such a gun illegally. But to be honest, it's easier for me to stay away from certain places than to do that. And I do not believe arming citizens is a sustainable strategy for making a city safe. I also don't want to be part of the paranoid violent culture that I came from, where nearly all my relatives have multiple loaded and ready guns. It makes me angry that I have to even contemplate owning a gun to protect myself with, but then again, unlike my relatives, I have lived in Europe, where somehow they managed to create cities without warzones.

I'm sure almost all of the guns that make parts of Chicago so terrifying are illegal. Crimes with illegal weapons will happen regardless of what laws you have. But that doesn't mean laws are pointless. If they create a barrier to entry, then they will prevent some crimes, particularly crimes of passion.
posted by melissam at 8:15 AM on July 21, 2012


Also, I was going to go through a long spiel about handguns, but it appears that the NYPD at some point in the last year have removed both the concealed carry license and the target shooting license from their webpage, unless you own a business, which only proves my point even more.
posted by corb at 8:18 AM on July 21, 2012


So the first "developed nation" is Northern Ireland, then the US.
To note, Northern Ireland has been experiencing a low-level civil war for 40 years. The statistics used to make that list even comes from about 1994, before the Good Friday Agreement helped to ease the situation significantly. For example, the Loughinisland Massacre by the UDA, which saw 6 killed and 5 injured, took place in 1994, along with retaliatory killings by the IRA. It tightly followed the pattern of the Greysteel Massacre the year before, in which the UDA killed 8 and injured 13, and by the same group which undertook the Castlerock Killings earlier in the same year, killing 4 and injuring 1.

In short, "better than Northern Ireland" for firearm deaths is hardly a glorious position.
posted by Jehan at 8:38 AM on July 21, 2012 [14 favorites]


the utility bill was really difficult for me to obtain as a renter whose utilities were included in the rent, which seems to discriminate against non-property owners

Electricity was included or you paid but it wasn't in your name. If it was included , that was a really really good deal and you should have lived there forever.

I don't think anyone has legal guns except cops so all these licensing requirements are moot anyway. They pass from person to person, some come from other places and are bought in the street. It isn't like anyone goes to the guy store and buys a gun, you buy them off some guy who is selling a gun. Personally, I wouldn't buy a gun off a street criminal. With my luck I would end up with a murder weapon but I know guys, mainly local retail and bar owners, who buy guns off of random people.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:07 AM on July 21, 2012


I am completely oblivious to the logistics of how you would use a firearm in defense of a mugging. Someone sneaks up to you and puts a gun to your head. If you're carrying a purse, he demands your purse, which you have to give him or he'll shoot you. The purse has a gun in it. Five seconds later you have zero guns and he has two.

If you're not carrying a purse, he tells you to empty your pockets. You have a gun in your pocket. He sees it, and either shoots you, or makes you hold your hands up while he takes your gun. Five seconds later you have zero guns and he has two.

How exactly does this work again? And why does this mean we have to let everyone have AR15 assault rifles?
posted by moammargaret at 9:08 AM on July 21, 2012 [15 favorites]


A whole new market for XRay machines just like all the cinema halls in New Delhi.posted by infini at 7:40 AM on July 21 [?]

What a great solution. More money to be made eh?




A law enforcement official who asked to remain anonymous said the suspect had purchased a ticket, entered the theater and propped open the emergency exit while he slipped out to "gear up" and return armed.


-latest story on google news.

perhaps we could station armed guards at the exit.


> I would simply have been stabbed and robbed if I hadn't been armed that day.

That is total BS. I'm a 25+ year New Yorker, I've been mugged once and had another couple of mugging attempts, but more, I read the newspapers and the crime statistics.


only a few times in 25 years...not bad. Your advice is sound, give it up but that is not working in other parts of the country. One can give it up and then they shoot you anyways. Here in Flint Mi. we just shoot the fuckers, no kidding, there is some interesting data on those victums who are shooting back. IT WORKS.
posted by clavdivs at 9:09 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]




am completely oblivious to the logistics of how you would use a firearm in defense of a mugging.

O.K.
This happened to me two weeks ago. I was walking to the store and three dudes came at me, varying their course toward me....maybe 50m yards...they were going to make a move. So I put on my uglies and headed towards them throughing off the element of suprise and not allowing them to scatter and surround. Then I just reached my hand into small of my back and said "hey fellas"

not a word. These guys have been robbing the neighbors for weeks. I did not have a firearm, they just think I did. I did have a knive which was ready. Also ambush is 75% of the mugging but that can very. I have prevented four robberies by having a pistol but NOT brandishing it.

The best weapon is your brain and a dog. A gun is a last resort situation.
posted by clavdivs at 9:18 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


Aurora theater shooting: Officials to breach booby-trapped apartment

Within the next hour, bomb technicians in Aurora expect to breach the booby-trapped apartment of theater shooting suspect James Eagan Holmes.
posted by futz at 9:21 AM on July 21, 2012


Yeah, I'm not trying anything like that. I'd end up actually dead instead of just pissed I lost a couple bucks.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:22 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


The absolute best way to fend off a mugger is to BE a mugger! They'll never expect that!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:28 AM on July 21, 2012 [6 favorites]


many of which are high crime and badly policed (such as Brownsville, for example)

Oh, come on.

Brownsville is the worst, or maybe the second worst, neighborhood in the city. The vast majority of New Yorkers do not live in Brownsville and do not have to think about self-protection in the way that someone who lives in Brownsville might. What's more, if New York took a more Colorado-esque approach to gun ownership, that wouldn't solve the problems in Brownsville.
posted by Sara C. at 9:45 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


I am completely oblivious to the logistics of how you would use a firearm in defense of a mugging. Someone sneaks up to you and puts a gun to your head. If you're carrying a purse, he demands your purse, which you have to give him or he'll shoot you. The purse has a gun in it. Five seconds later you have zero guns and he has two.

If you're not carrying a purse, he tells you to empty your pockets. You have a gun in your pocket. He sees it, and either shoots you, or makes you hold your hands up while he takes your gun. Five seconds later you have zero guns and he has two.


Assuming this is a good-faith question:

First, possession of firearms should go hand in hand with vigilance. I don't think anyone would argue that firearms will significantly and positively affect a situation where someone isn't aware of their surroundings, or doesn't react quickly to scenarios. I firmly believe that if you are someone who does not possess good situational awareness or respond quickly in a crisis, you owe it to yourself and others not to carry a gun.

Second: Keeping a gun in any place besides on your body is a bad idea. People who carry firearms frequently almost never carry in either a pocket or a purse. They generally either carry in the small of their back or at their side or shoulder. These are not places your average mugger will check, even if he does have the draw on you. However, you should not be in a position where a mugger can get the draw on you. Situational awareness will help with this. If you're in an uncertain situation, you should generally have your hand at, on, or near your weapon, to prepare for a swift draw. Draws can and should happen in seconds. However, as posters have noted above, generally you have your hand in position to draw your weapon before other people would be in position to immediately counter you.

In an ideal self-defense with a weapon situation, as clavdivs has mentioned, you rarely need to actually draw and certainly not fire the weapon. The fact that you are armed already makes you too high an opportunity cost to be a good target.
posted by corb at 9:59 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


maggiemaggie writes ". my burning question remains... why is the US at the top of the world in these sorts of loner mass killings? And it seems to be getting worse."

Crime in the states has been declining since the 70s pretty well across the board. I'd be this is a seems like not based in reality and the result of the 24hour news cycle plus better information flow.

flug writes "A better analogy is tobacco companies. They have been sued very successfully, not simply because they were selling tobacco but because of the *way* they were selling it."

IMO the tobacco companies are a horrible example as their product when used as directed and intended kills about half it's users. The same is not true of firearms the vast majority of which don't kill anyone.

AElfwine Evenstar writes "Anyone can buy as fully automatic weapon...yes fully automatic. All one needs to do is get a tax stamp and register the weapon with the ATF. Of course a fully automatic AR platform will run one around $20-30,000."

Blatantly false. California (the most populous state at 38 million) for example has made it pretty well impossible for the average citizen to obtain most class 3 weapon.
posted by Mitheral at 10:05 AM on July 21, 2012




FTA:

First, officers would face the tripwire setup: strands of wire filament attached to a “hyperbolic” explosive. This device was designed to mix two chemicals together to create a blast. To disarm it, the official said, bomb squads would probably use a “bottle shot” — a container of water with a detonation cord inside. When it explodes, a powerful wave of water shoots out, hopefully breaking the device apart without the heat of an actual explosion.

Then, the official said, the bomb squad would face about 30 canisters packed with explosive powder. These were described as looking like black 16-inch softballs, some with rubber coatings. Similar canisters are used in big-city fireworks displays. But the canisters in Holmes’s apartment, the official said, were believed to contain “smokeless powder” — a setup meant for maximum force, not a colorful display. They would either be removed by officers in bomb suits or, possibly, destroyed.

Finally, the third challenge: a set of containers that appeared to hold a mix of liquid accelerant, black powder and bullets. The official described these as looking like “like a Guinness poured into a half-and-half, a black and tan.” The lighter-colored liquid was on top, and the heavier powder and bullets had settled to the bottom. The containers were expected to be moved to city dump trucks filled with explosive-deadening sand and driven elsewhere for disposal.

The apparent intent of all this, the official said, was “to kill and maim any first responders or anyone that came in there.” The official said that authorities hoped to complete the touchy work of disarming the apartment by the end of Saturday.

posted by futz at 10:11 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


He had super loud techno music playing from 12AM - 1PM. The theory is that he was hoping neighbors would make a noise complaint (they did), police would arrive, knock on the door, open it (it was unlocked), and kabloomy. This would have been roughly at the same time he was shooting up the theater.

Why he immediately told the police about the explosives upon apprehension, I have no idea. Regret? Vicodin wearing off? Perhaps he thought it went off and was bragging - "Did you have fun at my apartment?" That sort of thing. Who knows.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:22 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


I have to say, I'm always stunned to see that so many people argue e.g. that being mugged isn't so bad if you don't resist, or that you just give them your money and go on your way. It's not that I don't think this is a position worth considering, but it strikes me that this is a demeaning way to live and to think of oneself.

Again, I really feel like this goes back to class, economics, and the delusion that your stuff makes you who you are.

Somebody jumps me and grabs my bag (which has all my precious class identity building stuff)? They can have it. I am not my laptop. I am not my iPhone. I am not the $20 in my wallet. That someone is able to take those things from me by force does not diminish who I am as a person.

Also, as someone who's been robbed in a non-violent/non-confrontational way that could not have been solved by me pulling a gun and "protecting" my belongings via murder? Yeah, you do feel smaller after something like that. You feel powerless, and like you have no control over basic stuff like "I own a camera" or "My checkbook is in the top drawer of my desk." There's unfortunately no magic solution to that feeling, no matter how many guns you have.
posted by Sara C. at 10:23 AM on July 21, 2012 [9 favorites]


(or rather, 12AM - 1AM)
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:23 AM on July 21, 2012


From the first article I linked to:

Kaitlyn Fonzi, a 20-year-old biology student at University of Colorado Denver who lives in an apartment below Holmes' said she heard techno music blasting from Holmes apartment around midnight.

Another tenant said residents called 9-1-1 about the racket.

Fonzi went upstairs and knocked on the door. When no one answered, she put her hand on the knob and realized the door was unlocked.

Fonzi decided not to go inside the apartment.

At almost exactly 1 a.m., Fonzi said, the music stopped.



posted by futz at 10:26 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Lucky lady.
posted by jamesonandwater at 10:33 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Okay, but what if SEVEN highly trained people had been in the movie, and they all had M-60s?. No, wait. you could have a SEAL sniper in the projection booth, see...

Seriously, do you think a police officer would open fire in a darkened theater? More likely, he would have tackled this guy if the opportunity had presented itself. Granted, that a citizen with a carry permit might have been tempted to shoot him, but still, would it have been wise?

Not many problems can be solved using a gun as a tool, and all of them are lethal. Case in point, an armed lunatic with problems goes into a crowded theater....
posted by mule98J at 10:33 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


well, thank goodness for fear and crappy response times
posted by eustatic at 10:34 AM on July 21, 2012


crappy response times

The Aurora police arrived at the theater within 90 seconds of the first 911 call. Within a few more minutes, there were 200 police from all over the area at the scene.

I have plenty of issues with the Denver police, but I would not call these crappy response times.

And not to pick on the neighbor, but 911 is not for noise complaints. There is a non-emergency number for those.
posted by caryatid at 10:41 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]




I think that the crappy response time comment was referring to the 911 call from the apartment.
posted by futz at 10:48 AM on July 21, 2012


The 911 call from the apartment complex regarding the loud music...
posted by futz at 10:51 AM on July 21, 2012


I think that the crappy response time comment was referring to the 911 call from the apartment.

Yes, I know. When I make a noise complaint I consider within 30 minutes to be a reasonable response time. It's a non-emergency.
posted by caryatid at 10:55 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


At what point did people start making noise complaints? Was it well before the shooting, or not until after?
posted by brina at 10:55 AM on July 21, 2012


A man accused in a mass shooting at a Colorado theater that killed 12 people and injured 58 more failed a preliminary exam before pulling out of the neurosciences program at Colorado University.
7News' Keli Rabon was told that Holmes would not have been kicked out of the program, because students have an opportunity to improve their performance in the oral exam.
posted by futz at 10:56 AM on July 21, 2012


In other words, it sounds like the Denver police have their priorities straight.

I found this, from futz's article, telling:

Holmes was described as a quiet and intelligent person who wouldn't even acknowledge neighbors in his apartment hallway.

If I had a neighbor who never acknowledged my presence in a confined space like a hallway, I wouldn't assume they were a nice person who was just quiet. That's a really odd choice of words from the author of the article. It's almost like they were instructed to frame it as "everyone thought he was a nice guy who kept to himself" when the reality from witnesses was actually different.

Then again, further down in the piece Holmes is described as "reclusive", which sounds a little more reflective of the actual situation, assuming it's true that he really didn't do basic human contact type stuff like acknowledge neighbors in a hallway.

I don't know why that image has me so worked up. Maybe it's because, even living in impersonal New York, I still acknowledge the presence of a neighbor if we meet in the hallway? Or maybe it's just all the respectful, quiet, intelligent dudes I grew up around who had no social skills whatsoever. Aside from the criminal mayhem, this guy sounds like a lot of other guys I know. And not because he's "a nice guy who kept to himself."
posted by Sara C. at 10:57 AM on July 21, 2012


From caryatid's link about the victims:

Veronica Moser will always be six years old.

*weeps*
posted by madamjujujive at 11:03 AM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


From the Denver Post:
Around midnight, Fonzi said she heard techno music blasting from Holmes apartment. She went upstairs and knocked on the door. When no one answered, she put her hand on the door knob and realized the door was unlocked.

Fonzi decided not to go inside the apartment.

The music turned off at almost exactly 1 a.m., Fonzi said.

Police received several reports of the shooting at the Century 16 Movie Theaters at the Aurora Town Center around 12:39 a.m.
posted by argonauta at 11:03 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


I think it will be essential for the shooter to not have a public trial. He wants a stage. We must not give it to him.
posted by Hello Darling at 11:04 AM on July 21, 2012


I asked earlier, but does anyone know how or why the shooting stopped? Was Holmes detained while trying to leave the scene?
posted by wensink at 11:11 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Let's also make automobile companies responsible for auto deaths, alcohol companies responsible for deaths linked to alcohol, publishing companies responsible for deaths related to books, electronic companies responsible for losses due to piracy, etc. etc. This is a pretty slippery slope that one should be afraid of embarking on. Gun companies are selling a legal product that can be used in many legals ways and I'd guess the vast majority of fire arm use is legal.

You are free to have your day in court to recover damages from automobile companies whose products have caused injuries and deaths. You are free to try to do so with alcohol companies and bars as well. You are free to do so with cigarette companies, and it has been a very successful tactic. It is grotesque that the gun industry has been made immune, and that its victims are prohibited from having their day in court.
posted by Wordwoman at 11:13 AM on July 21, 2012 [9 favorites]




wensick, I've been following this pretty obsessively, but I have not seen any information or speculation on that point. Everyone was apparently too panicked to be watching what he did (understandably) and the police have not commented.

The Aurora police chief is focused on not making statements that could in any way affect the case in court.
posted by caryatid at 11:16 AM on July 21, 2012


I'd like to ask those who identify the murderer as 'mentally ill' or the equivalent, how they think improved mental health services (which I am all in favour of) could have prevented this and similar killings. I can't see it. This guy was functioning as a university student, of whom a great many have some funny ideas, at least from time to time. Do we screen everyone annually with the MMPT or something similar? Not remotely practical, and objectionable from a civil rights perspective. Even if he had pursued counselling, he and others like him would be unlikely to meet the test of being a danger to himself or others.

A quick look at Kaczynski's manifesto shows it to be reasonably well ordered, certainly more so than many screeds that appear all over the internet. I know several people dealing with schizophrenia, and they would not be able to construct anything as coherent while in the midst of an episode. They would be uninterested in doing so when their (awful but effective) medication is doing its job.

This thread has confirmed for me that the use of 'mental illness' as an explanation for these horrors functions mainly to add to the stigma of mental illness (as noted above).
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 11:19 AM on July 21, 2012 [4 favorites]


Do we really believe we are all discerning and wise enough to take on the role of judge and executioner as George Zimmerman did?

Oh, but that's different. Zimmerman was following God's plan.
posted by homunculus at 11:22 AM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Sara C., in the apartment building where I live, it's not at all uncommon to pass another tenant without a whole lot of acknowledgement. I try to at least nod at people when I see them in common areas, but the guy down the hall regularly walks right by me without saying anything. Sometimes he's occupied with his dog or his infant child, sometimes not. The girl who lives next door to me has passed me in the hall or on the stairs a handful of times and I've only gotten a nod out of her.

Personally, I don't really talk to my neighbors. I say hello to the girl across the hall because I have to -- she lets her dog run around in the hallway and if he's out there when I open my door he runs in and eats all my cat's food and I have to haul him out while waving off her "oh god, i'm so sorry". And there's a girl down the hall that I've had a couple of conversations with, about the weather or about a recent break-in down the block. I don't know her name, although I'm sure I probably have been told her name.

I'm shy, I have social anxiety issues, and I really like my privacy. I assume that others do as well. It's kind of dismaying that this gets treated as a pathology, or a reason to assume that people who keep to themselves are sick, wrong, and dangerous.
posted by palomar at 11:25 AM on July 21, 2012 [16 favorites]


. . . It's kind of dismaying that this gets treated as a pathology, or a reason to assume that people who keep to themselves are sick, wrong, and dangerous.

I agree. As a longtime member of the quiet loner community, I thought of making some kind of statement about this but I just couldn't deal so I didn't.

I'd like to ask those who identify the murderer as 'mentally ill' or the equivalent, how they think improved mental health services (which I am all in favour of) could have prevented this and similar killings.

What was heartbreaking to me was how immediately Holmes' mother knew that this was something that her son could have done. I don't have any legal or constitutional blueprint in mind for this, but as a policy matter I think it needs to be made possible for people to intervene forcibly in the mental health of others, under certain circumstances.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:33 AM on July 21, 2012


Thanks, Caryatid. Obviously we're all just speculating here, but do you get the sense that Holmes just went outside to the parking lot at some point when he got tired or bored or ran out of ammunition? What does his nonviolent surrender to police after such a rampage suggest psychologically?
posted by wensink at 11:34 AM on July 21, 2012


That's interesting that the police station was just down the block from the movie theater. To me, that implies that he really wanted to shoot up this movie and no other. You could find countless packed movie theaters on any summer weekend, so why pick one so close to the cops? Surely it would have saved him all the trouble of rigging up some kind of (failed) scheme to create a distraction. Maybe he wanted it to happen during the biggest movie event (this movie is the biggest of the summer? yes? I'm clueless about such things), or maybe he wanted to make some kind of postmodern ironic statement. Any way you slice it, it seems a peculiar choice.
posted by Rhomboid at 11:39 AM on July 21, 2012


wensink, the only story that gave any indication to me as to why he might have stopped is one that did not get a lot of play - apparently, he tried to get in to Theater 8 - one movie goer came face-to-face with him -- but he was unsuccessful because Eric Hunter barred the door. That article makes it sound like he had plans to continue.

The other thing that witnesses say is how fast the shooting was - a matter of 3-5 minutes or so, a few said. And apparently the police were right there. I haven't seen a timeline. Did he go out to the car get more ammo but gave up when he saw police? Had he banked on an explosion at his apartment causing more chaos and distraction that would buy him more time?
posted by madamjujujive at 11:40 AM on July 21, 2012


Palomar, that's the thing.

I don't always give a lot of acknowledgement. I don't usually stop to chat, and I don't always physically say hello. But there's almost always some acknowledgement that we are two humans in a shared space. Even if it's just a wave or a nod or a moment of slight eye contact that says, "hi, I'm here, and I see that you, a fellow human, are sharing this space with me."

To me what sounded weird (and it might just be sloppy phrasing in the article) was the statement that he typically did not acknowledge neighbors. The mental image I'm getting is someone who walks right past people without even seeing them. Which is creepy. Not "nice but quiet".
posted by Sara C. at 11:40 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


this movie is the biggest of the summer? yes? I'm clueless about such things

Yes and no.

As someone who works in film, it seems to me that this is a pretty crowded summer. There was the Avengers earlier in the season, which IME was the most talked about Summer 2012 film before the actual season started (opened maybe before Holmes withdrew from school, though?), another Spiderman movie, another Ice Age movie, another Madagascar movie, and Brave. There are also a ton of other films that have been thrown out there as potential big blockbusters, for example Savages, which have not performed and have been non-events.

That said, there were really only three Big Summer Action Movies based on some kind of franchise where it could be easily predicted they'd be the "biggest of the summer", Batman, Spiderman, and Avengers. As I said, I think Avengers might have opened too early in the season if the grad school thing was a catalyst.

I don't know why you'd pick Spiderman over Batman -- they seem to have gotten similar amounts of hype and are based on similarly long-running franchises with huge fanbases. They also opened just a few weeks apart. The only thing that differentiates the two is TDKR's dark tone and explicitly political subject matter as shown in trailers.
posted by Sara C. at 11:50 AM on July 21, 2012


What was heartbreaking to me was how immediately Holmes' mother knew that this was something that her son could have done.

The quote I read from the mother was, "You have the right person." We don't know what the question was, though. They could have asked her if she had a son in Aurora who was going to graduate school for neuroscience; or they could have asked her if her son was likely to be a mass-murderer.
posted by caryatid at 11:50 AM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


He opened an exit door. Whether it connected directly to Theater 9 or to some adjoining room isn’t clear, but Hunter saw two teenage girls, one wounded in the face. Hunter, a radiology technician, said he saw what appeared to be entrance and exit wounds.

“Please help me!” a girl pleaded. “Please help me. God, he’s coming back.”

Hunter said he pulled the girls into Theater 8 and grabbed the door, but before he could shut it he found himself locking eyes with the shooter. The man was in black, wore what looked like a gas mask and held a gun in each hand. Hunter slammed the door.

After Hunter slammed the door, he could hear the gunman pounding on it. But the man never came through the door.


Good lord.

The guy is named Hunter? It's all too much.
posted by wensink at 11:53 AM on July 21, 2012


Sara C., what I hear you saying is that even though you admit that the article might have been guilty of sloppy phrasing, you're still going to judge the action (which may be being misconstrued, either by you or by the reporting body) as "creepy". Even though you yourself admit that you don't really go out of your way to make contact with your own neighbors.

Please don't pathologize based on hasty, possibly poorly edited articles written in the heat of the moment. That's just not okay.
posted by palomar at 11:55 AM on July 21, 2012 [4 favorites]


I wasn't pathologizing, I was questioning the framing of the article. Which seemed to be attempting the typical "he was a nice guy who kept to himself" framing, even though if you read the actual quotes, it seems that people are saying that he wasn't nice, he was distant and reclusive. I mean, seriously, the best the people could say about him was that he was "respectful".

The tone of the article is just really odd, and I can't tell whether it's poor writing, poor reporting, or that the Holmes is actually very odd and this doesn't fit the normal pattern of "random seemingly normal person flips out and goes on a killing spree" at all.
posted by Sara C. at 12:02 PM on July 21, 2012


An unhappy reflection: I personally know of at least two people of whom I would have to say -- if contacted by a reporter with some kind of horrible news they'd caused -- "Oh, Jesus, I'm sorry to hear that. I gotta tell you, I always knew he had it in him. I'm afraid everybody that knew him figured he could do something like this."
posted by Countess Elena at 12:09 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


.

I think that not_that_epiphanius above asks a very important question. Mental health is often cited by gun control opponents as a primary factor in these tragedies, but I must have missed the NRA press release where they endorsed the idea of a mandatory mental health screening prior to purchasing firearms, or closing the wide open loopholes that would keep guns out of the hands of individuals with criminal records (not that either of these would be sufficient to keep guns out of the hands of every person who might use them in gun homicides, but as a means to put downward pressure on the number of those homicides.)

We could spend ten times as much on mental health in this country and it would be money well spent, but it's only going to help people who want to be helped. Pointing to mental illness really seems like a disingenuous hand-wave used to disguise one's lack of an answer to the question of how we reduce the number of these tragedies in the future.

If we're supposed to just treat them as natural disasters beyond our control, or perhaps the price of living in a free society, then let's have those discussions honestly without muddling the issue with vague references to improving mental health. If you truly believe that an armed society is a polite society, then please be ready to cite more than two or three easily-debunked examples where a hero with a gun stopped a mass tragedy, and please be ready to explain how all those newly-minted gun carriers are going to be the same kind of responsible gun owner you imagine yourselves to be.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:13 PM on July 21, 2012 [7 favorites]


It's kind of dismaying that this gets treated as a pathology, or a reason to assume that people who keep to themselves are sick, wrong, and dangerous.

I'm right there with you, as a pretty self-contained shy dude with some anxiety issues and some weird but benign interests. I worry that the bar for "suspicious" behaviour is being set increasingly low, and the range of truly socially acceptable activities is shrinking. (Maybe this is related to the [perceived by me] fact that random everyday folks like me are referred to in public discourse as "consumers" way more often than as "citizens".)

That said, I really don't want to live in an oppressively fear-based society, and that means I can't contribute to the interpersonal isolation that perpetuates it, even if interacting with people sometimes gets very uncomfortable. Maybe some of the Gun People are arguing in good faith when they say that it's up to all of us, personally, to maintain a just and orderly society. I agree with them in principle, but I think it's insane to think that increasing everyone's violence capability while doing nothing to end creeping social fragmentation is anything but a recipe for disaster.

This means that I have to do things like get to know my neighbours (just a little bit) and develop a sense of which types of interactions go smoothly naturally and which require extra effort. It involves forcing myself to take an interest in people I might otherwise ignore, but happily the need to force oneself is diminished quickly by finding that engaging with people is a good outlet for natural curiosity and can sometimes overcome even pretty serious anxiety. I'm still far from gregarious, and have no interest in becoming so, and resent the high social value placed on gregariousness, but I do try to make the space immediately around me an empathy zone, and try to be helpful and establish a little bit of background trust with the folks with whom I share that space, if possible. To the extent that I'm saying "sometimes it's very hard to leave the flat and go agoro-cise, but there are bad psychological and social consequences if I don't, so I co-opt my own politics to overcome anxiety", your mileage may obviously vary, but I think that the pathologization of benign lonerhood is actually a consequence, somewhat paradoxically, of a lack of empathy and fear of the Other that stems from a suburbia-engendered and media-encouraged lack of interpersonal interaction.

I have some thoughts on what's been successful, and what's been unsuccessful, for me, in this regard, but I feel like I might be veering yet again into derail territory, here.

Also, I really wish the blanket term "mentally ill" would actually just go away. We could use medical terms for the illnesses that have some scientific basis, and maybe we could even not medicalise issues that aren't necessarily medical. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be way more help available for all kinds of issues, but it seems weird to predicate receipt of help on diagnosis with a medical condition, especially when the disease is of a type that might not even be a disease any more next time they update the DSM.
posted by kengraham at 12:14 PM on July 21, 2012 [6 favorites]


From what i have read here I have serious doubts if Mr Holmes would have been identified or intervention executed, by the mental health system. Which is not to say that he was or was not mentally ill. I have no idea what his day to day behavior was--but apparently he had enough organizational skills to graduate from college, attend graduate school, live independently and meticulously plan and execute a horrific crime. In the absence of behavior that had been clearly and imminently dangerous to self or others it is very doubtful he would have been treated involuntarily. He could have had delusions or hallucinations of which his family were aware, but once again that does not mean he could have been involuntarily evaluated or detained. If he was involved in treatment it is likely he would have been brought to the attention of authorities only if he had described/revealed a specific plan with intentions. A professional usually is "prohibited" from reporting vague or generalized thoughts of harming others as it is considered to violates confidentiality. And that assumes he discusses them. Specific plans to harm a person(s) should, and probably would, have been reported. The price of due process and restraints on involuntary evaluation/treatment is that some persons dangerous to self or others will not be treated. And even if treated, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, some will seriously harm them self and/or others. Such is the state of the science, due process and human kind. Improved mental health screening and treatment as well as restrictions on gun ownership may help but will not eliminate similar incidents. There is simply no doubt that as long as gun control laws stay similar to the ones extant that there will be tragedies such as this. I am personally opposed to the ownership of any firearms except shotguns and long rifles whose sole limited use is hunting( no assault like weapons, hand guns etc.). If one feels compelled to protect their home a shotgun always seemed a prudent choice. The same for public protection. I have always hought that walking down the street with an unconcealed shotgun or rifle was a greater deterrent than hiding a gun. Oh well.......... Don't put this horrendous crime on the back of the mental health system, the judicial system or society at large. There were three elements sufficient and necessary to execute this crime--a perpetrator, a gun and and victims.
posted by rmhsinc at 12:16 PM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


I'd like to ask those who identify the murderer as 'mentally ill' or the equivalent, how they think improved mental health services (which I am all in favour of) could have prevented this and similar killings.

I don't identify the killer as mentally ill. I don't know yet. I am just asking that, if it turns out he has a history of mental illness, we ask how it is he managed to legally acquire an arsenal.

As to how improving our mental health infrastructure could help -- well, in a few ways. Firstly, a lot of mentally ill people don't know or don't believe they are mentally ill. It is, after all, our brains that are sick, and our brains are very good at justifying how they experience the world. And by destigmatizing mental illness, and educating about it, we may help friends and family recognize the symptoms of mental illness. And by making sure this is covered by health care insurance and the like, we can have people feel like they can suggest mechanisms of treatment for their friends and family, because they will be available and not cost-prohibitive.

Additionally, by destigmatizing mental illness, we can make sure that information about the subject is shared, rather than treated as a shameful secret. And so people who are capable of dangerous, psychotic rampages will find it harder to arm themselves, which they are not supposed to be able to do anyway.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:21 PM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


When my neighbors and I ignore each other in the hallway, I think it's it's out of a mutual, unspoken agreement to not get all up in each other's business. It's like the radius of personal space being different depending on where you live. To me, in Chicago, it feels like I'm merely being respectful of other people's privacy as well as my own when I don't make everyone stop for small talk. I've had great neighbors over the years. When there was a fire in my building everyone pulled together and helped everyone. But the majority of us just barely nod most days. Sometimes not even that–and it's never struck me as a thing. When I read such comments from neighbors to the media after events like this I always think that it's a lack or any real details coming out and they just grasp at any quote they can get (very much the way the mother's quote could have meant nothing at all, as noted above).
posted by marimeko at 12:27 PM on July 21, 2012 [6 favorites]


I agree with Bunny Ultramod's desire for an improved approach to mental health, there is no evidence of psychosis in this case, and considerable evidence for its absence, in the form of (1) the planning needed to execute this crime, and (2) a sort of motivation connected with academic failure. Associating 'mental illness' with this event is contributing to the misunderstanding of mental health rather than alleviating the stigma associated with it.
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 12:37 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


I worry that the bar for "suspicious" behaviour is being set increasingly low, and the range of truly socially acceptable activities is shrinking

Jeez, guys. I'm not saying "What, he didn't have twenty minute hallway conversations on a weekly basis? Lock him up!"

I'm saying that it seems odd that the article goes out of its way to mention that he did not "even"* acknowledge neighbors in the hallway of his apartment building. It doesn't say, "he seemed shy" or "he didn't know his neighbors that well".

*That was actually the word that came to my attention. It doesn't say "he wasn't social with neighbors", it says "he didn't even acknowledge neighbors in the hallway." (italics mine)
posted by Sara C. at 12:37 PM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


And so people who are capable of dangerous, psychotic rampages will find it harder to arm themselves, which they are not supposed to be able to do anyway.

I am not really seeing how you get people who don't think they are mentally ill to start taking advantage of mental health services, "better" or otherwise. You can have the most excellent heath care in the world, and no one can force you to see the doctor. I also wonder how many paranoid people would simply avoid any sort of mental health evaluations for fear they would be prevented from owning firearms.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:40 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Marimeko - but I bet you nod in their general direction, don't you? You make eye contact as needed. You acknowledge that there is a person there. You may not stop to have a prolonged chat, but you don't act like you can't see them. You don't look right through them. You don't continue walking down the hall as if there weren't another person there.

There's a HUGE gulf between those two ideas. And it's weird to me that none of you have ever been in an interaction with someone where they really aren't acknowledging you, and haven't noticed how creepy and wrong it feels.

Maybe it's just because I live in a heavily Satmar Hasidic neighborhood, among people who are taught not to acknowledge goyim if at all possible. But seriously, to be looked through as if you're not there is really off-putting and not at all the same thing as the sort of smile-and-nod privacy brushoff.
posted by Sara C. at 12:43 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Associating 'mental illness' with this event is contributing to the misunderstanding of mental health rather than alleviating the stigma associated with it.

I have not associated mental illness with this, except to ask that, if it turns out to have been a factor, we discuss the subject. And the reason I ask this is because of past mass shootings where mental illness was a factor, particularly Virginia Tech.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:43 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


It is, after all, our brains that are sick, and our brains are very good at justifying how they experience the world.

My only worry about this attitude is that, while the definition of pneumonia or cirrhosis (or a gunshot wound) is a matter of empirical fact, the definitions of many mental disorders are largely a reflection of the culture. Consider that being attracted to members of the same sex was a diagnosable mental illness until disturbingly recently, and that there's a strong feminist critique of the notion of "borderline personality disorder", and that the social and neurological bases of even less controversial mental disorders like schizophrenia and depression are not all that well-understood, and that there are social situations in which depression or anxiety or rage are understandable, "sane" responses, and that the mental health system has a history of being used to enforce oppressive, arbitrary norms, and that Judge Schreber has sunbeams in his asshole.

I don't think what's needed is an expansion of medical bureaucracy. What's needed is a strong scientific effort to understand mental phenomena, an all-encompassing cultural and economic effort to make society a bit less batshit-o-genic, and some system for reliably extending compassion to those who need it, regardless of the presence or absence of a diagnosis.

It would probably be easier to strap pla's guns to a camel and pass them through the eye of a needle through which pla is not invited than to bring about such systemic change.

(Sara C.: I wasn't directing the "pathologizing" comment at you, or anyone else here. I'm more referring to times I've been called out/threatened with violence/profiled by LEOs in demeaning, but unjustified, ways, for apparently unconventional, but, viewed rationally, totally innocuous, behaviour like walking on a public sidewalk late at night or "acting nervous" etc. Sorry for not being clear about this; I can see how what I wrote could seem like a pile-on-component.)
posted by kengraham at 12:48 PM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]




You make eye contact as needed. You acknowledge that there is a person there. You may not stop to have a prolonged chat, but you don't act like you can't see them. You don't look right through them. You don't continue walking down the hall as if there weren't another person there.

And you don't know that the shooter did any of these things, either. You ARE pathologizing, based on a poorly written article.
posted by palomar at 12:51 PM on July 21, 2012


American Family Association News Director Says Liberal Churches, Media Share Responsibility for Colorado Shooting

Everybody says everybody we disagree with shares responsibility for Colorado Shooting
posted by philip-random at 12:56 PM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


American Family Association News Director Says Liberal Churches, Media Share Responsibility for Colorado Shooting

SEND MONEY NOW TO HELP US STOP THE SLIDE TO GOMORRAH
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 12:57 PM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


I worry that the bar for "suspicious" behaviour is being set increasingly low, and the range of truly socially acceptable activities is shrinking

Jeez, guys. I'm not saying "What, he didn't have twenty minute hallway conversations on a weekly basis? Lock him up!"


I agree- I'm not a friendly person by nature, if I hear people in the hallway sometimes I avoid going to get the mail. I still make eye contact and nod/smile at the people who live in my building. It is creepy to not respond to people saying hello to you in the place you live. I realize some people aren't used to it, or have a hard time not being shy (I do), but make an effort if you don't want to seem extra unfriendly. If you don't care, go about your business. Just realize that how you interact colors how people think of you, and own it if you plan to live around humans.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:58 PM on July 21, 2012 [4 favorites]


American Family Association News Director Says Liberal Churches, Media Share Responsibility for Colorado Shooting

Good. I'd like to add that I blame Castro, Dairy Queens, 1960's Mods, the burning ghost of Jerry Falwell and the makers of According to Jim as well.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:58 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


you nod in their general direction, don't you?

I do, but if they totally ignored me I would just assume they were listening to a podcast or something. 'Creepy' would never figure into it.
posted by marimeko at 1:01 PM on July 21, 2012


I don't identify the killer as mentally ill. I don't know yet. I am just asking that, if it turns out he has a history of mental illness, we ask how it is he managed to legally acquire an arsenal.

Well, how about we wait then.
posted by adamdschneider at 1:02 PM on July 21, 2012


Reflecting on this shooting, I'm starting to wonder if I'm part of the problem rather than the solution.

What I mean is this: I grok that if, for example, I consume certain media or patronize certain businesses, I would be contributing to the objectification and hyper-sexualization of women, body issues for women, the under-valuing of work done by women etc.

So doesn't the same to apply to my consumption and production of violence-related media?

I play FPS and shoot 'em ups. I find unlocking infinite ammo powerups and sniping missions to be immensely enjoyable, although when I play games where it's possible to harm non-combatants I try hard not to hurt them, to the point that people watching me play have commented on the level of difficulty I add for myself. I also watch violent movies and TV shows all the time.

I would never have a gun in my house, and I'm a vegetarian so I wouldn't hunt, but I would probably enjoy the hell out of getting instructed on how to safely operate and maintain a firearm by mefites who are responsible gun owners and then heading to the range to shoot some targets.

[open humblebrag] Also, as a gonna-be/wanna be writer, I authored an urban fantasy novel set in the 30s that has a shoot out at its climax. Granted, the protagonist is more of an observer than a participant in the climactic battle, but he relates it with a reporter's eye for detail. [close humblebrag]

My question, then, is this: if the general discourse on MeFi and elsewhere among those who care about such things is that even something as seemingly low-key as, say, subscribing to GQ or Esquire, which frequently feature suggestively clothed women on their covers and on their pages, contributes to a host of issues that affect the women of the world, why did so many of us in this thread reflexively roll our eyes at the impending attempts to link violent media to things like the Aurora shooting and other similar incidents? Why do we argue so strongly against a link between violent media and violent crimes?

Just like corb, pla, et al would hate to be told to give up guns which they have never used to harm or threaten someone who wasn't a direct threat, I would hate to be told to give up my Walking Dead comics and shows, Call of Duty games, and other things. But, damn, maybe it's time to think more about the downstream effects of my choices.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:13 PM on July 21, 2012 [6 favorites]


"American Family Association News Director Says Liberal Churches, Media Share Responsibility for Colorado Shooting"--I am personally holding Unitarians and the Huffington Post and daily KOS responsible for this. Thank God ( I am sure a very conservative One) that this is nothing to do with guns, ammunition, personal responsibility, faulty brain wiring, human fallibility, F U neuro-chemistry or a culture that celebrates individual rights over common good.
posted by rmhsinc at 1:34 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


lord_wolf, that's a really good question.

I think one uncomfortable answer is that it's probably no big deal, from the point of view of "culture-of-violence" problems, for certain people to consume violent media, and it's pretty problematic when other people do it. I don't even want to begin to think about the mess of deciding, as a society, who's who. Maybe the issue is avoided because nobody else does, either.

Now, not at all attempting any snarky rhetoric or baiting or anything, but instead trying to understand a viewpoint to which I can't yet relate:

What about simulated violence, and what about weaponry (or the thought of using it), makes these things fun?
posted by kengraham at 1:38 PM on July 21, 2012


why did so many of us in this thread reflexively roll our eyes at the impending attempts to link violent media to things like the Aurora shooting and other similar incidents? Why do we argue so strongly against a link between violent media and violent crimes?

... I would hate to be told to give up my Walking Dead comics and shows, Call of Duty games, and other things.


That's pretty much the answer, IMO. Nobody wants to give up their videogames or whatever.

You see the same thing any time you suggest there might be anything problematic about mainstream hardcore porn.
posted by cairdeas at 1:44 PM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


Although there is no immediate evidence yet, I do think mental illness is a pretty likely possibility. The guy is about the right age (although maybe a little late) to start developing the first signs of schizophrenia. This would correspond well to his quiet loner personality (most quiet loners aren't schizophrenic of course, but it's a really common behavior pattern for them to have, since they have flattened affects and don't socialize well). His academic problems could have been another symptom, perhaps caused by gradually worsening symptoms, with this being the result of his first full-out psychotic break.. Schizophrenia, particularly paranoid schizophrenia, isn't a barrier to fairly complex planning.
posted by Mitrovarr at 1:45 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well, how about we wait then.

You are welcome to wait. But please don't tell me what I may and may not discuss. Regardless of whether this particular killer was mentally ill, it has been a factor in past shootings. As long as we are not discussing this killer as though it is known that he is mentally ill, there is no reason why this event cannot cause us to look back on past shootings and evaluate how well the problems leading up to them were addressed.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:56 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Colorado Shooting Blamed On Gays, Liberals.

That didn't take long.
posted by ericb at 2:04 PM on July 21, 2012


What about simulated violence, and what about weaponry (or the thought of using it), makes these things fun?

It's a reinforcing cycle, I think - the media valorizes the people who do violence (via movies, books, music, poetry - ever read the Song of Roland? This has been going on a long time) and then of course people want to roleplay the sort of people that they see in media. Kicking ass is what awesome people do, and if I can kick ass in a video game (or by empathizing with a movie character, or whatever) then I am, at least momentarily, awesome.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:14 PM on July 21, 2012


I blame the shooter, period. I don't care if he was mentally ill, or read too many comics, or ate twinkies as a small child.


He chose to plan this out elaborately. He chose to buy the weapons.

He chose to pull the trigger. Over and over and over and over again, despite the screams of the terrified and the wounded and the dying.


Most mentally ill people, even if they are pretty darn far gone, still have enough grasp of reality not to do what he did. And no matter what the gun laws are or aren't, no matter what society did or didn't do, no matter how much white sugar and white flour and corn syrup flowed through his veins, and no matter how antisocial he was.

HE did it.

HE is the reason people are dead and wounded and dazed and traumatized.


I see no reason to point any more fingers.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 2:15 PM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


(And as to WHY he did it, reference my earlier post. Evil. Just evil. No other explanation really necessary.)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 2:17 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well, we can just close this up, then.
posted by marimeko at 2:19 PM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


St. Alia of the Bunnies: I blame the shooter, period. I don't care if he was mentally ill, or read too many comics, or ate twinkies as a small child.

I find it incredibly disturbing that our society has completely lost the idea that the mentally ill are not responsible for what they do. Look, I know this is hard to admit, but if exactly the right neurons were crossed in your brain, you could be exactly like the schizophrenic killers of the past. You could slaughter a bunch of people and wholly believe it was the right thing to do. Only the fact that you have generally correct neurology makes you better than him, and that is entirely a matter of fate and coincidence. Your personal merit matters not in the slightest when considering your sanity.

Insanity is not evil. It's just biology... incredibly unfortunate biology, like the black plague, but still just a consequence of physics and chemistry. Not evil.
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:19 PM on July 21, 2012 [10 favorites]


So why is it that certain countries, certain states, certain cities seem to have a way higher concentration of "evil" people than others?

All of the mass shooters I can recall have been men. Are there more "Evil" men than evil women?

Are people born evil? Would God create someone who was born evil? If not, do they become evil? How? Is it something in the brain? Is it the result of any interaction between the brain and the environment?

Is it just a coincidence that so many "evil" people were severely abused as children?

Is it a coincidence that so many "evil" people have observable and measurable differences in their brains?
posted by cairdeas at 2:20 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


Eh, "personal responsibility" rhetoric just means a dead end. Case closed. Comforting, maybe, but not illuminating.

I used to be pretty anti-gun control, but now...whatever. There really isn't a good reason to have them around. Hunting? Use a bow. Home defense? Buy a rope ladder, as the best defense in any violent situation is to GTFO. They can be fun, but so I assume can street racing. It's just not worth the psychic baggage anymore, in my opinion.
posted by adamdschneider at 2:21 PM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]



Insanity is a legal term. I doubt our shooter will meet the criteria. He was able to plan a very elaborate scheme and was not hallucinating.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 2:21 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


(And fwiw I do think that some folk ARE so far gone they should not be held responsible. This is not that, however.)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 2:22 PM on July 21, 2012


Can't go along with the 'just evil' explanation. But I also don't think that 'gun culture' or 'teh libralz' or 'mental illness' remove any responsibility for this act from the perpetrator.

However, if we as a culture want these sort of events to stop, we'd better identify some effective points of intervention - and I suggest those occur on the timeline prior to the first round being fired.
posted by j_curiouser at 2:25 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


"Evil" places the blame on a supernatural force that only comes into play for the religious or religiously leaning. As an agnostic person whose family has a history of mental illness, I find this deeply judgmental, offensive, and ignorant.
posted by palomar at 2:26 PM on July 21, 2012 [6 favorites]


Well, to be fair. I think the bounds of insanity as the legal system rules them now are unnecessarily narrow. Insanity doesn't necessarily mean uncontrollable hallucinations. It can poison your worldview, leave a person absolutely rational in nearly all ways except some core concepts. You might think someone is a lizard person intent on controlling the world, but still realize that the police are going to come after you when you shoot them and try to escape, for instance.

I will admit, though, we do not know if this shooter is crazy yet. I was mostly reacting to the comment where you blamed the shooter and specifically said you didn't care if he was mentally ill. That is a really poisonous attitude that is absolutely destroying the way we handle crimes by the mentally ill in this country.
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:29 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


impending attempts to link violent media to things like the Aurora shooting and other similar incidents? Why do we argue so strongly against a link between violent media and violent crimes?

I like the "culture of violence" idea.

I absolutely don't by any means think that playing violent video games or watching violent imagery in the media makes anyone commit crimes.

But there was a phase of my life where I was consuming a lot of extremely violent media (in my case it was really extreme horror movies among other things). I didn't feel like I would become violent, but I definitely noticed how desensitized I was to it. My friends and I would watch movies and laugh about the creative ideas the filmmakers used for their "kills". There were often rape scenes and violence towards women.

One day I was sitting in a theatre watching something by Takashi Miike*. There was a scene where a father was having sex with the corpse of his daughter (I forget who killed the daughter, but it was one of those epic shoot-em-up ultraviolent mayhem things where people are getting offed right and left), and there was a funny little gag where the corpse shat all over him. Suddenly it occurred to me that this was not really OK.

I was sitting in a dark room full of people who were all laughing at the idea of a brutally murdered corpse shitting on someone during an incestuous necrophilia rape scene. And we were all going to leave the theater and go have a beer and giggle about all the creative ways the filmmaker decided to kill the various characters. Were any of us going to go out and start raping corpses? No. Were any of us ever even going to kill anyone, for any reason at all? Probably not, assuming there were no military snipers in the audience. But still. What does this stuff do to the average person's mind? How does it affect the way we perceive other people, our level of empathy?

*Who to this day I respect as a brilliant filmmaker who does great stuff when he tones down the Violent Death Is So Hilarious thing.
posted by Sara C. at 2:32 PM on July 21, 2012 [8 favorites]


No other explanation really necessary.

Why are we here, talking about it, then?
posted by kengraham at 2:44 PM on July 21, 2012


Reflecting on this shooting, I'm starting to wonder if I'm part of the problem rather than the solution.

Very literally, though, you are not: If the problem is senseless murder, then the only way to be part of that problem is to senselessly murder someone, or at least to abet that act in some direct way. I do not think that there is a direct line from you or anyone playing Call of Duty and a sick person shooting up a movie theater. You could be part of the problem if you were handing him bullets, or keeping the engine of the getaway car warm, or tackling people as they ran for the door. Otherwise, no, you're not part of the problem.

But you're also not part of the solution, because there isn't a solution to the problem of disturbed people suddenly snapping and shooting strangers. We couldn't even solve this problem in Minority Report, which is a film about psychic people whose whole job it is to guess when a disturbed person might suddenly snap and shoot a stranger. It turns out that even in a fantasy movie where this works, it still doesn't work. It's a bummer, but it's a bummer we as a species have lived with for a pretty long time and it mostly isn't a big deal, really -- not the same way malaria is a big deal, or AIDS is a big deal, or hurricanes or earthquakes or cancer or ebola are big deals -- because people don't generally flip out and kill strangers for no reason. I can't imagine how horrifying it would have been to be one of the people in that theater, but it is extraordinarily probable that no one reading this will ever find out for themselves. It's an aberration. It's fucking weird. Fortunately, it is so weird because it is very rare and pretty much just isn't going to happen to you, knock on wood. I mean, it's going to happen to someone, but it's really likely it won't be you. The problems we should be more concerned with are generally a lot less dramatic but way more, um, problematic on a large scale, because they affect enormous swaths of society -- the aforementioned illnesses, plus boring stuff like how there isn't any money. You know.

My question, then, is this: if the general discourse on MeFi and elsewhere among those who care about such things is that even something as seemingly low-key as, say, subscribing to GQ or Esquire, which frequently feature suggestively clothed women on their covers and on their pages, contributes to a host of issues that affect the women of the world, why did so many of us in this thread reflexively roll our eyes at the impending attempts to link violent media to things like the Aurora shooting and other similar incidents? Why do we argue so strongly against a link between violent media and violent crimes?

I roll my eyes at it because a lot of people play violent games and watch violent movies and what have you, and if even 1% of those people were mass murderers we would be living in Arkham fucking City. But we are not. I believe that a mass murderer may enjoy violent media right along with the vast preponderance of people who enjoy violent media and are not mass murderers, which is to say like 99.97% of that audience. I bet a lot of mass murderers also enjoy footrubs, ice cream and playing with fuzzy baby kitties, but I don't see anyone rushing to ban that stuff.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:54 PM on July 21, 2012 [8 favorites]


Who else does it occur to that someone is planning another one of these right now?
posted by telstar at 2:56 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]




But you're also not part of the solution, because there isn't a solution to the problem of disturbed people suddenly snapping and shooting strangers.

I think free quality care for mentally ill children, adolescents, and adults would be a great start. I think free, quality supportive services for families with emotionally disturbed children would be a great start,. We've never tried that, so how can we pronounce that there just "isn't a solution?"

We couldn't even solve this problem in Minority Report, which is a film about psychic people whose whole job it is to guess when a disturbed person might suddenly snap and shoot a stranger. It turns out that even in a fantasy movie where this works, it still doesn't work

I do not think looking to fictional movies as evidence for something working or not working will help us in any way.
posted by cairdeas at 3:02 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


I do not think looking to fictional movies as evidence for something working or not working will help us in any way.

Ah, I guess it's a little soon for sarcasm, then. Okay. But yeah, I agree that improved mental health services might help some fraction of this incredibly small fraction of society from going ballistic, but at the risk of sounding cynical, my guess is that while many people would surely be helped by this, someone disturbed enough to shoot into a room full of strangers for no reason at all is very probably not able to be helped. I think it's worth it to improve our mental health services because of the help they would give so many others, but no, I don't think many people who are this profoundly...whatever adjective we would like to use...I don't know that we can do much about that.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:09 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Sentimental kneejerkery vs. empathy and why the former is not an appropriate response unless maybe you were there or something:

Yesterday morning, I had a little fight with someone I care about a great deal. Not even raised voices, but fairly harsh snark on both sides. Apologies were made, sincerely, by both parties, and a little discussion about fair fighting ensued, and it was pretty well sorted out, but, regardless, I felt very bad for several hours afterward, not particularly because I'd said things that hurt this person, but simply because this person had been hurt.

I did not have a similar emotional reaction to hearing about this shooting. I can think it's horrific, and I can deplore the circumstances that lead to it, and I can feel a certain degree of sympathy for the victims and their loved ones, but I apparently can't feel viscerally bad in the way I did when I snarked nastily at (and was nastily snarked at by) someone I love.

I'm actually not much of an asshole, and I think my emotional response to others' suffering is pretty squarely in the "normal" range, maybe even skewed sensitive. Therefore, I doubt that the magnitude of most emotional reactions was really enormous -- I'm not saying anyone's expressed distress wasn't genuine, I'm just saying that we're not generally literally paralyzed with grief and horror at things that happen to strangers, and we have to build our compassion consciously, rather than have it automatically available, when there is emotional distance from the situation.

Fortunately, we have this awesome human tool called empathy. It's a cognitive gadget that switches on and helps us react to situations in which we have little emotional stake as though we had great emotional stake. Empathy is tricky, because it's an advanced-level abstract-thinking game, where you have to step outside of your own experience and imagine that something that's not affecting you directly actually is affecting you directly, because you've shrunk "you" down to consist of just those things you have in common with someone else, and then projected yourself onto them to see how things are, over there, and respond accordingly. You've squeezed through the bottleneck in the Venn diagram.

It's actually hard, the way being open to new ideas is always hard, especially in tense situations. My experience is even that people who have natural sympathetic emotional responses in a wide variety of situations, or naturally sentimental people, can be surprisingly bad at empathizing, because they don't need the tool as often and therefore don't get much practice.

(This is all analogous to how we don't really have to think about morality much when dealing with our loved ones, because there are built-in emotional responses that make us tend to behave compassionately in that context. We bring in intellectual, moral constructs to help us deal with strangers about whom we don't necessarily give a damn, in the deepest-felt emotional sense of giving a damn.)

When someone is unwilling to analyze a situation, and instead drops a thoughtless one-word sloth-bomb like "evil", it makes me afraid, because they strike me as the sort of person who's unwilling to do their due diligence, thoughtfulness-wise, and therefore may not actually be all that empathetic and nice to share the world with or whatever.
posted by kengraham at 3:23 PM on July 21, 2012 [13 favorites]




What does this stuff do to the average person's mind? How does it affect the way we perceive other people, our level of empathy?

This is a very interesting debate - as is the one on gun control (or meta-debate about the opportunity to have a debate about gun control based on such events - was just reading a nice set of different arguments about that on the Guardian: basically now is not the time vs yes it is) or how we define mental illness socially and then legally.

FWIW, I think it's important to keep in mind that for all the influence of trends in a given society, there are factors that influence people's behaviour that are much much closer to them - their family, their upbringing, their immediate environment, etc. And then genes and personality of course, but talking of 'external' factors, those things - how someone grew up, what kind of family and social environment they grew up in - are hugely more important than any amount of portrayal of violence in entertainment and media.

Now of course if you put someone in front of a screen and force them to watch (or if someone deliberately subjects themselves to watching) violent scenes only, for hours, with no counterpoint, no chance to talk about it, no one to talk about it, no other inputs to balance that, nothing else to do with their time and no job and family to take care of and no partner and friends to spend time with, that'd screw up even the sanest healthiest person in the world and drive them to do awful things either to themselves or others. But the vast majority of people do not live such a life of absurd isolation where the only input they get is glorification of violence or desinsitization to violence.

Only very few individuals get so obsessed with violence in such a completely senseless isolated way - not through involvement in some guerrilla or political group, or terrorist group even, any group using violence with specific goals and methods and coordination - that they build up a whole arsenal by themselves with no one even noticing. (It reminded me of the Norway killer in some ways. This guy may not have a pseudo-political manifesto but he sure dedicated a lot of time and effort to his plan and he too wanted to be caught alive.)

So, in the end, no matter how shocking and awful these events are - and aside from the fact that they seem to occur more frequently in the USA rather than elsewhere (at least in terms of frequency there are wider factors at play there) - I think we have to keep in mind that such a combination of isolation and obsession and meticulous preparation and determination is, thankfully, still quite rare. Once we acknowledge that, the debate on violence in entertainment, as well as the one on gun control and mental health, can be had in a much fairer and more useful way, I think. I know it's only human to want to understand the 'why' in such an event, because it's so shockingly senseless, but the more extreme and purposeless the act of a single individual is, the more individual and convoluted and self-referential the "whys" will be, if there are whys to be found.

The wider social issues of violence in entertainment and access to guns and mental health prevention are important and worth debating in the ways they may or may not affect wider portions of the population, not lone killers.
posted by bitteschoen at 3:29 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


Just a follow-up, AMC Theatres is not banning costumes, just full-face masks and prop weapons. Which I suppose is reasonable.

Meanwhile, Gander Mountain, where Holmes bought the Smith & Wesson semi-automatic and one of the Glocks, is having a firearms sale. Save up to $200 on new firearms! Classy.
posted by homunculus at 3:37 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


how someone grew up, what kind of family and social environment they grew up in - are hugely more important than any amount of portrayal of violence in entertainment and media.

Well, of course.

And I did preface that comment with "I absolutely don't by any means think that playing violent video games or watching violent imagery in the media makes anyone commit crimes."

On the other hand, I think it's really naive to think that we can compartmentalize this. That we can say, OK, violent imagery is unusually prominent in our culture's narratives, but it is meaningless and has no bearing on anything that happens in real life.

Again, I don't think we should ban violence in media. I don't even think we should restrict it. I don't think that artists have a responsibility to change the kinds of art that they make. Frankly, some of my favorite artists make violent media.

But I think the tendency to shut down discussions along these lines is idiotic.
posted by Sara C. at 3:57 PM on July 21, 2012 [4 favorites]


Re: Mental Illness--I think it is reasonable to assert that regardless of the availability, accessibility or efficacy of present mental health services, science and technology one can not expect these type of events to be reduced or prevented. The predictive science, diagnostic/evaluation technology and treatment just is not there. This may change over the next generation--but not yet. Further, due process, political reality and constitutional rights limit the ability/appropriateness of forcing treatment based on what "might" happen. I suggest this would be somewhat analogous to forcing all high risk gay males to take a cocktail of drugs to prevent spreading HIV regardless of their HIV status. Until the science is better or constitutional rights revised incidents like these will happen as long as weapons are available. Drugs, alcohol, mental illness, the human brain and/or weapons will always increase the probability of violence.
posted by rmhsinc at 4:12 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Should have said "significantly reduced or prevented" not just "reduced or prevented"
posted by rmhsinc at 4:14 PM on July 21, 2012


-I think it is reasonable to assert that regardless of the availability, accessibility or efficacy of present mental health services, science and technology one can not expect these type of events to be reduced or prevented.

And I disagree.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:17 PM on July 21, 2012 [4 favorites]


There was discussion upthread about his choice of movie, mentioning some of the other summer blockbusters. It occurs to me that the difference between this and the others is that Nolan's Batman is a thoroughly adult film. Might he have chosen it based on that, and shortened the attack (if that's what happened) when he realized there were children in the audience?
posted by Iteki at 4:35 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Tonight, the freeway sign in Tennessee reads 547 -- 6 more dead since Tuesday-ish. I'm sure their families are just as devastated as the ones here.

Our media thrives on making remote things feel like they happened to your neighbor, so that you pay attention and buy the associated advertised products. It is mercenary in the extreme, and it makes us overreact as a society. In just the time we've been discussing this, 3 or 4 people appear to have died on TN roads, and the death toll will keep mounting, week after week, month after month, year after year. None of us are paying particular attention, but there are some TN families tonight that would disagree most strenuously that their parent/spouse/child was any less important than these headliners.

Don't use this event as an excuse or a reason to argue any changes whatsoever. If you want to talk about gun control in terms of larger-scale numbers, that makes some sense, but jumping on this awful event as an excuse to push an agenda is both poor thinking and a bit shabby. It's using a terrible tragedy as an excuse to draw attention to your ideas, which, at its base, is very similar to what the media is doing to try to make money.
posted by Malor at 4:37 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]




I was at the gym this afternoon watching CNN on the treadmill (no sound or subtitles) and they seemed to be showing photos of the interior of his apartment. Did anyone see this? I can't find the photos anywhere now and I'm wondering if they weren't actually his apartment at all, but were something else? They were pretty alarming and I'd like to know if they were the real thing.
posted by something something at 4:53 PM on July 21, 2012


Don't use this event as an excuse or a reason to argue any changes whatsoever.

That is pretty ironic to say in a comment that started out by using the deaths of 6 innocent people who have nothing to do with this topic as a reason to argue for ways the rest of us should change.

In just the time we've been discussing this, 3 or 4 people appear to have died on TN roads, and the death toll will keep mounting, week after week, month after month, year after year. None of us are paying particular attention

None of us have been paying attention? None of us are concerned with road safety? None of us ever think about, talk about, vote for, or even help develop DUI laws and punishments, cell phone/texting laws, child seat laws? None of us have pressured local politicians to pay attention to/do something about dangerous roadways or intersections? None of us gladly spend more tax money so police can do more DUI checks?

To me, the argument that "Nobody should concern themselves with problem X until we solve problem Y" just always seems like an excuse for apathy and inaction. No matter what problem X is, you can always come up with a problem Y. Why worry about road safety when so many more people are dying of heart disease!

It's using a terrible tragedy as an excuse to draw attention to your ideas,

When people are concerned about something bad that has happened to other humans and are trying to figure out ways to prevent it for the future, if you throw out a blanket accusation that the only reason they are REALLY concerned is that they just want to selfishly put forth some of their own ideas just for their own narcissism, I do not think that is a good way to make people feel very open to you and your point of view.
posted by cairdeas at 4:56 PM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


Malor: None of us are paying particular attention

What. Billions of dollars are spent every year on traffic safety. Laws are passed. Regulations are enforced. Seat belts, air bags, crumple zones, anti-lock brakes. Highway patrolmen, soft barriers, visibility improvements. Jail time for drunk drivers. Suspended or revoked licenses. Per-model safety ratings. Fines, restrictions, educational and physical fitness requirements for licensing. Insurance requirements.

Don't use this event as an excuse or a reason to argue any changes whatsoever.

What. I'll hazard a guess: the NRA has sent out an email bulletin with talking points that you're regurgitating for us?

If you want to talk about gun control in terms of larger-scale numbers, that makes some sense, but jumping on this awful event as an excuse to push an agenda is both poor thinking and a bit shabby.

This Awful Event: Brought to you by one man and 4 guns
posted by syzygy at 5:09 PM on July 21, 2012 [13 favorites]


To me, the argument that "Nobody should concern themselves with problem X until we solve problem Y" just always seems like an excuse for apathy and inaction.

It can be that, but I don't think it is here. A person killing a dozen people is shocking and terrible, and that makes us pay attention, but less dramatic events have much higher body counts, and have them as a matter of course. Problem X is a problem the same way being hit by lightning or being eaten by a shark is a problem; yes, these things are really really bad, but they're unlikely to happen. We may not associate visceral horror with heart disease or traffic accidents, but we are way more likely to experience them. They are a much bigger problem, because they are more likely to really happen to people.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:20 PM on July 21, 2012


I was driving home from the theatre just now (yes, I saw Batman) and caught the news. According to CBC radio, news outlets have chosen to avoid using the shooter's name in their updates, in order to avoid giving him a platform, and also to keep the focus on the victims. It seems like a really great idea, and maybe one that can reduce copycat attacks. Can anyone in the area give a little more detail on how this is playing out?
posted by peppermind at 5:31 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Malor, I'll happily make this all about how we should think about maybe easing out of the societal and environmental clusterfuck imposed by the internal combustion engine, until the mods take my keyboard out of my cold dead hands, if you like.

Or we could, you know, not indulge deraily impulses to end a discussion after 1100+ comments, many of which were insightful and about the gun aspect of things, and many more of which contained those "ideas" you're not keen on having aired, for some reason.

Your choice. I know what you're thinking, though. Does this random MeFite with a cold and an internet connection have six spare hours, or five? Well, to tell you the truth, in the midst of this excitement, I'm not sure. But given that this random MeFite has a bunch of time on his hands and the capacity for massive TL;DR and epically involuted, insufficiently-punctuated verbal spew, you've got to ask: do I feel lucky?

/MeFianStandoff
posted by kengraham at 5:32 PM on July 21, 2012 [9 favorites]


Malor, I am actually curious as to what benefit these statements bring to you... why do you insist that tragedies shouldn't lead to discussions about relevant laws that could possibly prevent a similar tragedy in the future?
posted by deanklear at 5:49 PM on July 21, 2012


Anytime someone else accuses others of "having an agenda", it just makes me wonder what their agenda is, and why they want so badly to shut other people up.
posted by palomar at 5:58 PM on July 21, 2012 [7 favorites]


Can anyone in the area give a little more detail on how this is playing out?

The shooter's name does not appear on the online version of the front page of the Denver Post.

Our public radio station is currently airing "Colorado Matters" and they aren't covering the shooting.

NPR news is only talking about "the suspect," "the gunman."

9 News, the local NBC affiliate has Holmes' name in one headline, otherwise calls him "the suspect."

Channel 4 (CBS) is using "shooting suspect."

Channel 7 (ABC) uses Holmes once, otherwise "shooter." shooting suspect."

Fox 31 uses "gunman."
posted by caryatid at 6:08 PM on July 21, 2012 [5 favorites]


Twelve deceased victims have now been identified:

Jessica Ghawi, 24
Veronica Moser-Sullivan, 6
John T. Larimer, 27
Alexander J. Boik, 18
Jesse E. Childress, no age given
Jonathan T. Blunk, 26
Rebecca Wingo, 32
Alex M. Sullivan, 27
Gordon Cowden, no age given
Micayla Medek, 23
Alexander Teves, 26
Matthew McQuinn, 27

So young, all of them.

Arapahoe coroner releases list of Aurora theater shooting victims
posted by caryatid at 6:25 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Correction: Jesse Childress was 29.
posted by caryatid at 6:27 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


@caryatid: I think he should only be referred to as "the asshole". I will also accept "the coward." ("The asshole was wearing..." "The coward shot...") Juvenile, I know.
posted by papercake at 7:49 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]










It occurs to me that the difference between this and the others is that Nolan's Batman is a thoroughly adult film.

A thoroughly adult PG-13 film.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:15 PM on July 21, 2012




You can't call him one thing all the time, either, or that just becomes his title.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:39 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Gun control disarms law abiding citizens; it does not disarm criminals.

Again, gun crime is lower in places with gun control, the facts don't back you up here. It reduces the number of guns in circulation. Gun crime in Australia isn't unheard of, and domestic violence cases involving guns are often involving families with crime connections. But the average stick-up at a petrol station, or mugging, or break-in (I *refuse* to call them home invasions as if there were tanks and drones involved) involves knives or syringes or cricket bats, none of which have the lethality of a gun. It's not that crime goes away, it's that it becomes less deadly. Wouldn't you prefer that?

that being mugged isn't so bad if you don't resist, or that you just give them your money and go on your way... it strikes me that this is a demeaning way to live and to think of oneself.

I value my life more than I value my property. It's just money, it's just a phone. I can get more. I value any life more than I value property, even if that life is a drugged-up criminal - who knows, maybe that fucking phone is an actual life or death issue for them, maybe selling it will pay for baby food after they spent their money on drugs. I don't know, and I don't care. This is not demeaning, it's life-affirming. I know you'll scoff at this, but I pity people who think it's worth killing someone over a phone whether the person doing the killing is the attacker or the victim.

re: Batman vs Spiderman. TDKR is the highly-anticipated conclusion to a much-loved trilogy. Spiderman is a reboot of something that got rebooted less than 10 years ago, and based on advertising seems to be going for the 'lighter, fluffier' angle than the recent Spiderman 3 did. I just don't think it's got the gravitas that TDKR has.
posted by harriet vane at 9:48 PM on July 21, 2012 [10 favorites]


You can't call him one thing all the time, either, or that just becomes his title.

FOX31 has an innovative solution to the Single Moniker Problem:

FOX31: "Sources also say a picture of Holmes with red hair on an adult website is what Egan looked like when he was arrested."

It's good that they're not playing Orwellian He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named games, but is there some indication that Holmes went by his middle name, or is this just weird?
posted by kengraham at 9:52 PM on July 21, 2012


Further ideas raised in this thread already for improving the rate of gun deaths in America (because I think they deserve more thought than hypothetical muggings and are more relevant than mental health issues until we know more about the shooter):

8. Actually enforcing the laws regarding background check-ups, etc. The fact that gun dealers often don't bother or deliberately fudge the details (see the story earlier in thread where the dealer crossed out a declaration of previous depression) is a political/cultural issue, but too fucking bad. You want to make a profit selling lethal weapons, you abide by the damn laws surrounding them.

9. Changing laws so that gun manufacturers can be sued in the same way that tobacco, car manufacturers, etc can be when death results. This ties back to campaign finance reform and regulatory capture.

Thoughts, opinions on these?
posted by harriet vane at 9:58 PM on July 21, 2012


It's good that they're not playing Orwellian He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named games, but is there some indication that Holmes went by his middle name, or is this just weird?

Kinda weird, given the fact that his middle name is Eagan. And of course because all murderers must have three names ... I'll bet nobody actually ever called him James Eagan Holmes before this.

Thoughts, opinions on these?

The shooter/coward/asshole bought all the gear in this image within two months of the shooting (plus a metric crapload of bomb-making supplies). How about tracking these purchases by credit card number or shipping location, and raising a red flag with law enforcement when they happen within such a short time period?
posted by caryatid at 10:24 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


I don't think they'd be able to do anything about it. See the Fast and Furious debacle.
posted by homunculus at 10:46 PM on July 21, 2012


I'll take it as a given that my fellow mefites that are here advocating gun ownership are intelligent, responsible people. After all, you're here on Metafilter making cogent, reasonable arguments for why you need a gun. But seriously, next time you're in a crowded public place take a look at the people around you. Do you really want all (or even most) of them to be carrying lethal weapons? I'll admit I own more than one gun, but I trust myself (and my fellow mefites) with that responsibility. I don't trust 90% of the people I see out in public. The idea that any sizable percentage of them are armed doesn't make me feel any safer. I think there are very few instances where a situation involving guns is improved by adding more guns to the mix.
posted by DaddyNewt at 10:47 PM on July 21, 2012 [9 favorites]


9. Changing laws so that gun manufacturers can be sued in the same way that tobacco, car manufacturers, etc can be when death results. This ties back to campaign finance reform and regulatory capture.

This is an excellent idea (like, I think, many of 1-7).

8. Actually enforcing the laws regarding background check-ups, etc. The fact that gun dealers often don't bother or deliberately fudge the details (see the story earlier in thread where the dealer crossed out a declaration of previous depression) is a political/cultural issue, but too fucking bad. You want to make a profit selling lethal weapons, you abide by the damn laws surrounding them.

The US government has a very scary recent record with regard to privacy rights/data retention/etc. They obviously have tons of innocuous information on their citizens, and I think the sort of things looked for in a criminal background check are mostly unproblematic.

However, there should be a moratorium on expansion of government awareness of non-anonymized sensitive personal information until someone starts enforcing the regulations about what data the government is allowed to collect, how they are allowed to collect it, how long they are allowed to keep it, how it may be shared between agencies, etc. I don't personally give a damn about the 2nd Amendment, but the US is a 4th amendment (and privacy rights in general) disaster zone right now, in a way that I imagine could eventually exceed the seriousness of the gun violence problem.

Moreover, I'd like there to be some legislative reassurance that tight regulation of this type will only ever be imposed on weapons, followed by a list of things considered weapons that is comprehensive, sane, and doesn't include the type of "weapons" that got Philip Zimmermann in trouble in the 1990s.

Also, the legislative environment is legitimately frightening. One doesn't need to be a black-helicopter nut to find the USA PATRIOT Act horrifying. Somewhat relevantly, for the past ten years or so, the FBI can go, legally, without a warrant, to the fucking library and ask what a random American reads and, as far as I know, it is illegal for the librarian to tell the random American about it. Or: a nontrivial proportion of all electronic communication between Americans (think for a second, of the volume) in the early 2000s was just sort of grabbed (illegally) by the military, and then it was retroactively made legal.

In such an environment, I'm not sure I want people in a position where they have to report personal medical information (e.g. past depression) that may or may not even be relevant, but is very sensitive. Criminal background checks are fine; the government having this data is no more questionable from a privacy standpoint than filing a tax return, i.e. not a privacy issue at all. The idea of a central database of private mental health information is very scary in ways a central database of criminal convictions is not. 3-letter agencies have a documented history of accumulating private information about people who are not criminal suspects and attempting to use that information to discredit or otherwise harm them. I'll not bring up the Black Panthers again in this thread, but, like, COINTELPRO was real.

Also, it seems like nothing more than stupid legislative imprecision, or posturing, to deny gun ownership to non-violent felons. This is a big deal, because one reliable way to ensure that laws are followed is to have them widely perceived to be fair. If the U.S. is going to continue to be a place that makes an outrageous number of nonviolent drug users into felons, then abridging the privilege of all felons to own guns on the basis that felons are violent seems very unfair.

So: even though I'm not in the US right now, and have no plans to ever buy a gun, and honestly don't think people should have them, I'd have serious qualms about beefing up the background check thing.
posted by kengraham at 11:10 PM on July 21, 2012 [3 favorites]


How about tracking these purchases by credit card number or shipping location, and raising a red flag with law enforcement when they happen within such a short time period?

Because it wouldn't work that way. There would be a moral panic about violent lunatics out of all proportion to their prevalence, followed by hasty legislation called the RAPTOR Act (Recording All Purchases To Obliterate wRongdoing), under which cash would slowly be phased out and every purchase anyone made would be recorded. Data-mining would catch a few would-be mass murderers, while the rest of us get questioned and hassled because we bought too much technical literature on computers (hacker!) or Crass records (anarchist!) or copies of the Koran (terrorist!). Ten years later, it would come out that the newly-formed Consumer Vigilance Agency had been secretly selling all of the data to advertisers.

What you're talking about would perhaps save some lives, but it would certainly be a human rights clusterfuck just like the PATRIOT Act.
posted by kengraham at 11:24 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'm not talking about technical literature, Crass records (whatever they are) or Korans.

I mean multiple guns, massive amounts of ammo, ballistic armor, and bomb-making supplies.
posted by caryatid at 11:36 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


caryatid writes "The shooter/coward/asshole bought all the gear in this image within two months of the shooting (plus a metric crapload of bomb-making supplies). How about tracking these purchases by credit card number or shipping location, and raising a red flag with law enforcement when they happen within such a short time period?"

Seriously? The response to a freak mass shooting should not be institution of country wide system to track every single purchase made by anyone anywhere and compile that into a government database which can then be mined for patterns of suspicious behaviour. Even if that was technically possible, which I doubt, it would be both a huge, nay gargantuan invasion of privacy and a massive waste of money and resources.
posted by Mitheral at 11:36 PM on July 21, 2012 [2 favorites]


caryatid writes "I mean multiple guns, massive amounts of ammo, ballistic armor, and bomb-making supplies."

There is though the obvious problem of mission creep. Not to mention "bomb making supplies" is an essentially endless list: For example the following are all bomb making supplies:
  • Pipe
  • Bleach
  • concentrated OJ
  • styrofoam
  • nails
  • wire
  • Let's just say the entirity of any hardware store
  • Iodine
  • Gasoline
  • Matches
  • CO2
  • Sulphur
  • Wood (for charcoal)
  • Pool Chemicals
  • Root Killer
  • Fertilizer
And that's without getting into stuff which can make poisonous or noxious aerosols like beans.
posted by Mitheral at 11:46 PM on July 21, 2012 [1 favorite]


Seriously? The response to a freak mass shooting should not be institution of country wide system to track every single purchase made by anyone anywhere and compile that into a government database which can then be mined for patterns of suspicious behaviour.

This is a massive misinterpretation and exaggeration of what I suggested.
posted by caryatid at 11:50 PM on July 21, 2012


The chances, on the other hand, of someone mentally ill committing suicide with your gun, or a child finding your gun and shooting themselves or another child, are much higher than the chance that you'll need to defend your home while you're in it.

I think these are things that non-gun owners tend to say, but maybe really only tend to happen to extremely casual gun owners.

Let's say I manage to get through the thicket of those laws in order to get a gun. Being a responsible gun owner, I keep it in a safe. This has nothing to do with laws- this has to do with simple sanity. All the gun owners I know have some form of safe to keep their guns in, whether it's a wall safe, stand alone safe, or one that attaches to the bed. It is incredibly easy to get your guns out of a safe in a swift manner. Most of them are designed so that you can key the code as you grip it.

In said safe, myself and my partner would be the only people who would have the code. This means that the only person who might possibly kill themselves with one of my guns would be either myself or my partner. Either one would be horrific (and unlikely, but we're going with possibilities here), but in neither case would the gun be responsible. We also keep enough medications in the house to kill a mule right now. Suicide happens. It's not the fault of the gun.

As far as children finding your gun and shooting themselves or another child: this only, repeat, only happens with casual gun owners who are irresponsible in their storage.

If you have children, and you have guns, you give them lectures on gun safety from the moment they are old enough to talk. (And if you have kids that are safecracking before that age, you need to worry about preparing for your new baby overlords anyway, so don't bother worrying about the guns.) You take them out to a range, or a quarry, or the backwoods, and show them what happens when you shoot a melon. Or a rabbit. You take home bloody deer carcasses, and explain in detail that the gun did that, and here is exactly how the gun did that.

This is all irrelevant, because they're not going to crack the safe. But it's important anyway, for that off chance that they come across someone else's guns, who isn't responsible enough to keep them safely locked up. You don't do this because it's the law (because it's not.) You do this because it's what you do to protect your children.

Legal gun owners can do this. Legal gun owners can show their guns to their children, and explain the trigger and the safety and why you never ever touch. Illegal gun owners cannot.

Children are not in danger in responsible, legal gun households. They're in danger in irresponsible, illegal ones.
posted by corb at 12:03 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Illegal gun owners cannot.

Why not?
posted by shakespeherian at 12:05 AM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


I think these are things that non-gun owners tend to say, but maybe really only tend to happen to extremely casual gun owners.

I'm pretty sure we've seen statistics on this brought up in previous MeFi gun debates. It wasn't very controversial - many gun deaths are accidents. It doesn't matter if people *should* be more proactive and careful; they just aren't. It's easier to regulate storage than it is to regulate common sense.

Does anyone have the link to hand? I'm useless at searching the blue.
posted by harriet vane at 12:28 AM on July 22, 2012


Also children are terrible at judging risk, even when it's been explained to them. This continues into the late teens (hence drink driving, etc). Prevention is better than a cure.
posted by harriet vane at 12:30 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm not talking about technical literature, Crass records (whatever they are) or Korans.

I mean multiple guns, massive amounts of ammo, ballistic armor, and bomb-making supplies.


Recent legislative history shows that the state can't be trusted to be that specific. It would, for political and constitutional reasons, be a law about tools of crime, or something, not specifically guns. The interpretation would be incredibly broad.

Gun violence is an extremely serious problem in the USA. Systematic civil liberties abuses are an extremely serious problem in the USA, and the violation of privacy rights is evolving in alarming and rapid ways. There is no chance that recording purchases of dangerous items would escape evolution into recording purchases deemed to be dangerous by bureaucrats that we did not elect.

Maybe your interests are sufficiently vanilla to avoid concern. I have in actual real life been questioned in a surprising amount of (clueless) detail by actual federal law enforcement (while crossing the border) about technical literature. The technical literature in question was not about explosives or something; it was a couple of papers from the ArXiv about math and some notebooks full of pictures and scribbles. On another occasion, I have been made, with no explanation, to show some of the contents of my laptop's hard drive, though it was not, as in numerous other cases, seized (without relevance to any particular investigation).
posted by kengraham at 1:04 AM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


Even if that was technically possible, which I doubt, it would be both a huge, nay gargantuan invasion of privacy and a massive waste of money and resources.

Probably completely technically possible, and very disturbing. A facility is being constructed in Utah, scheduled to open, IIRC, in 2013, to do essentially that with all sorts of online communication.

That said, it's probably a good idea that I for the nth time in this thread distance myself from people in favour of private citizens owning guns.
posted by kengraham at 1:12 AM on July 22, 2012


Good point about data gathering. Again it demonstrates how there won't be a quick fix to such a multi-faceted problem.

And really, Ken, maths? That'll teach you to go around being all educated and smarter than other people, you ivory-tower elite, you!
posted by harriet vane at 1:12 AM on July 22, 2012


corb, you have a very high opinion of your fellow Americans if you believe your definition of responsible gun ownership is shared. Until we understand how to make sure that no gun owner is a "casual" gun owner (that's a pretty tame word you chose for it, by the way), and must jump through many hoops (every few years) no one should have guns. And also, do you have kids? All the careful coaching in the world can't prevent that moment of childish impulse.
posted by thinkpiece at 4:57 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


ericb: "Doctor Explains Possible Psychological Reasoning Behind Colo. Shooting."

Well of course they're going to look for reasons and hows and whys. He's white.
posted by ShawnStruck at 5:00 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Children are not in danger in responsible, legal gun households. They're in danger in irresponsible, illegal ones.

Oh, well then, nothing to worry about, right? Children of these irresponsible, illegal-type parents don't deserve to be protected anyway, it seems!

Oh, and the cop's kid in jamaro's link just above, he probably deserved it too. Somehow.

But thank god for responsible, legal kids, eh?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:04 AM on July 22, 2012 [14 favorites]


extremely casual gun owners.

WTF does that even mean, really?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:05 AM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


But thank god for responsible, legal kids, eh?

I don't want to merely favourite this comment of flapjax at midnite's, I want to hug it to death.
posted by infini at 6:07 AM on July 22, 2012


A hero in yesterday’s shooting: ”At the end of the aisle, I ran into a woman. She yelled, ‘My kids!’ and I saw she had two young kids with her,” Jarell Brooks, 19, told ABC News. “I made sure they got in the aisle and pushed behind her to make sure she got out of there.” In his effort to protect this family, Brooks was shot in the leg. He’s out of the hospital now, and is being hailed as a hero for his actions. Meanwhile, the woman he saved, Patricia Legarreta, was hit as well, and taken to the hospital — where her boyfriend proposed. She said yes.
posted by ShawnStruck at 6:29 AM on July 22, 2012






The mystery of James Holmes' missing Facebook account

Short version: You don't appear to have a Facebook account. Is there something we should know, citizen?
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 8:06 AM on July 22, 2012 [9 favorites]


one more dead town's last parade: "The mystery of James Holmes' missing Facebook account

Short version: You don't appear to have a Facebook account. Is there something we should know, citizen?
"

I love that the account is missing.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:13 AM on July 22, 2012 [12 favorites]


(from the missing facebook artlice): If he was on Facebook, we might know what's been on his mind, what he had for dinner or how he spent the Fourth of July, offering insight into his mental state ahead of the events, but Holmes is not found on that social network, or Twitter. He doesn't have a website or blog. Unconfirmed reports late Friday allege that he may have been on the dating site AdultFriendFinder.com, not a forum most would choose to connect with friends, family or the greater public.

Jesus. I was unaware that owning a Facebook account was mandatory, but that article makes it clear that not being on it or twitter are at least serious social offenses if not outright crimes.
posted by winna at 8:16 AM on July 22, 2012 [8 favorites]








I was unaware that owning a Facebook account was mandatory

One of the odd side curiosities of terrible tragedies is getting a peek at some of the normative assumptions about people that the media make. There's very little information about this particular guy and so people just start writing news articles about the things they don't know. Same thing with a lot of the victims and/or surrounding environment. It's pretty hard to write more click-getting articles saying "We still don't know much" so you foment controversy by arching an eyebrow at the lack of a facebook page or you push some people's buttons by criticizing people's parenting ["taking kids to a midnight movie, what were they thinking?"] or you turn it into an axe grind on whatever your pet topics are [see ericb's post directly above this one] and it's just, to me, sad.

The economy of the business of reporting/news is such that it's a bigger/better deal to get a lot of people talking/forwarding/clicking than it is to get accurate information to the people who need or want it. This is one of the reasons I really like getting to skim MeFi for facts and not read the breathless "What can we conclude by his lack of a Twitter account?" because realistically, it's the absence of evidence getting tossed into a giant vacuum of people who are scared/nervous/agitated and left with many many questions, the largest of which is "How could this happen?" and any answer to that, however weird, seems better to most people than awkward or uneasy silence.
posted by jessamyn at 8:35 AM on July 22, 2012 [16 favorites]


yeah, sorry, I fail to understand how banning shit like a 100-round magazine (or whatever the proper term is, I'm sure I just offended a gun fan somewhere by not knowing everything perfectly) is an infringement on anyone's rights. Can someone explain why they would need something like that, outside of turning a human being into that "fine red mist" that someone rhapsodized about upthread?
posted by palomar at 8:36 AM on July 22, 2012 [5 favorites]




Warning: fox news link:

Less than a month before carrying out the midnight movie massacre that left 12 dead, suspected shooter James Holmes applied for membership at a private gun range, unnerving the club’s owner whose calls to Holmes’ apartment reached a “creepy, weird” Batman-inspired voicemail message.
“His answering machine message was incoherent, just bizarre, really bizarre -- slurring words, but he didn’t sound drunk, just strange -- I could make out “James” somewhere in it,” Glenn Rotkovich, of the Lead Valley Range, in Byers, Colo., told FoxNews.com.
posted by futz at 9:07 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Gun owners tend to make me extremely uncomfortable. How do they live in a mindset of constant fear of death ? I wish private ownership of guns could just be banned. Why cant we have hunting preserves (???)/ shooting galleries where enthusiasts could rent/check out guns, and check it back in when they leave ? Why are the founding fathers considered sacrosanct ? They are humans too and wrote this in with limited foresight. Cant we just try to make the society safe as a whole instead of having to worry about how we can individually fend off the next armed assailant ?
posted by asra at 9:09 AM on July 22, 2012 [9 favorites]


From futz's link:

The one-line email to which he attached the application concluded with a curt and businesslike sentence signed in a way that further put off the rural Colorado gun range proprietor: “Cheers, James,” according to a copy obtained by FoxNews.com.

"That also struck me as very, very strange,” Rotkovich said. “Who says ‘Cheers?’”


That is indeed very, very strange.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:13 AM on July 22, 2012 [8 favorites]


Well, people who separate question marks from the ends of sentences with unnecessary spaces make me extremely uncomfortable, but hakuta matata, you know.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:14 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


I suppose next we'll find out he was a geocacher or played the ukelele or something horrific like that.
posted by winna at 9:19 AM on July 22, 2012 [8 favorites]


Oh, lord, if saying "cheers" at the end of an email is strange I should call Homeland Security on, like, half the employees at Microsoft.
posted by palomar at 9:20 AM on July 22, 2012 [12 favorites]


"That also struck me as very, very strange,” Rotkovich said. “Who says ‘Cheers?’”

That bugs me. What is the proper etiquette for inquiring to join a gun club? "Jolly what! I think it would be a spot of fun to partake in your ballistics club. How shall I proceed with the formalities? I shant tarry."
posted by jonp72 at 9:31 AM on July 22, 2012 [6 favorites]


Unconfirmed report of suspect's alleged match.com profile suggests that shooter listed his political views as "middle of the road."
posted by jonp72 at 9:33 AM on July 22, 2012


"That also struck me as very, very strange,” Rotkovich said. “Who says ‘Cheers?’”

me :(
posted by Windigo at 9:40 AM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


yeah, sorry, I fail to understand how banning shit like a 100-round magazine (or whatever the proper term is, I'm sure I just offended a gun fan somewhere by not knowing everything perfectly) is an infringement on anyone's rights.

I agree. Given recent history, though, I would be concerned that legitimate rights (privacy, free speech, etc.) would be collateral damage in the enforcement of such a ban, the way legitimate rights are collateral damage in the War On Drugs or in TWAT. I have no suggested answer to this impasse, because unlike drugs qua drugs, or terrorism, gun violence (albeit not the mass-killer variety) is a highish-probability public safety menace.

Far-fetchedly, what is needed is a court case saying that the writers of the Bill of Rights, when they wrote the word "arms", could only have been referring to relatively crude 18th-century firearms, and that the 2nd amendment can't reasonably be construed to refer to technology that its writers could not have imagined. Then the headlines could be:

Window broken, 1 injured, in fast-food joint shooting. The suspect was tackled by fryulator operators while doing this.
posted by kengraham at 10:00 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Unconfirmed report of suspect's alleged match.com profile suggests that shooter listed his political views as "middle of the road."

This unconfirmed report proves everything I've always believed about political moderates is true.
posted by gerryblog at 10:10 AM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


Given the "rural Colorado gun range" framing, maybe a couple of "herps" and "derps" would've been more appropriate? Hard to say.
posted by indubitable at 10:11 AM on July 22, 2012


kengraham writes "Probably completely technically possible, and very disturbing. A facility is being constructed in Utah, scheduled to open, IIRC, in 2013, to do essentially that with all sorts of online communication."

Sure that step is easy. Collecting the data would be the hard part.

ericb writes "Jerry Newcombe, Evangelical Leader, Says Only Christian Victims Of Colorado Shooting Going To Heaven."

Not sure why that would be controversial. Christianity pretty well believes that only people who believe specific things and perform specific steps go to Heaven. I suppose one could accidentally believe and perform those activities without being Christian but it seems pretty unlikely.

kengraham writes "Far-fetchedly, what is needed is a court case saying that the writers of the Bill of Rights, when they wrote the word 'arms', could only have been referring to relatively crude 18th-century firearms, and that the 2nd amendment can't reasonably be construed to refer to technology that its writers could not have imagined. "

Sounds like a dangerous thing to wish for considering the 1st amendment and the non-existence of TV, Radio or the internet during the founding father's time.
posted by Mitheral at 10:12 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Window broken, 1 injured, in fast-food joint shooting. The suspect was tackled by fryulator operators while doing this.

Three shots a minute in any weather.
posted by adamdschneider at 10:13 AM on July 22, 2012


Sounds like a dangerous thing to wish for considering the 1st amendment and the non-existence of TV, Radio or the internet during the founding father's time.

Not a good analogy, because they 1st amendment concerns behaviour, while the 2nd concerns specific technology. As far as I know, Congress is free to, and has, made laws respecting the use of speech-technology, and these apparently aren't deemed to contravene any protection of speech. I don't agree with any of them, that I know of, but that slope has already been slipped on.

On the other hand, I alluded to Phillip Zimmermann above, and his is a very interesting case wherein weapons control legislation (in this case, regulation of arms exports) was used to inhibit the dissemination of a tool of free speech (in his case, cryptographic software). So yeah, my legal fantasy is probably pretty silly.

On the third hand, though, arguments that anybody's exercise of free speech rights is hurtful are generally predicated on some type of traditionalist idiocy or panic-mongering, while guns are routinely used to kill folks. I think this distinction is more important than maintaining the cultural pretense that an extremely outdated, albeit very clever, document is the final word on how things should be done.
posted by kengraham at 10:29 AM on July 22, 2012


I love how the right to own semi-automatic weapons with 100-round clips is CLEARLY a constitutional right, while owning nunchucks is a crime in many states. 100% logical.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:33 AM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


Re: Sen. Johnson's comments (as well as other politicians warning that neither this incident nor others like it should be an impetus for greater restrictions on firearms):

I find it sad and interesting that the suggestion of, or some sketchy evidence of, a black woman "driving a Cadillac" and receiving welfare benefits is enough of a reason for a relentless pan-partisan effort (centrists, moderates and independents always seem to be 100% behind it too) to eliminate the welfare program or place such severe restrictions on the process of applying for it and receiving it that it becomes off-puttingly difficult and dehumanizing. William Jefferson Clinton just about broke his arm when patting himself on the back for signing off on welfare reform.

There are never any calls to more vigorously enforce laws already on the books for social service programs. Instead, we go straight to nuking the entire thing from orbit. Something similar applies to voter ID regulations.

But when we have an incident such as the Aurora shooting or any of the other horrific gun-crimes, we get politicians, opinion shapers, and talking heads rushing out to speak to us: "Harumph harumph harumph. Thoughts and prayers, victims and families, shooter coward. Harumph harumph. Grave mistake to enact legislation restricting firearms and tactical equipment in any way. Harumph. Fundamental, God-given human right to lethality the architects of Constitution and Bill of Rights could not have dreamed of in the hands of private citizens. Harumph harumph."

Something's wrong with this picture.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:35 AM on July 22, 2012 [21 favorites]


Oh, lord, if saying "cheers" at the end of an email is strange I should call Homeland Security on, like, half the employees at Microsoft.

Last year, my company partnered with an Australian company for a project and every last one of the Aussies signed off with "Cheers," and I ended up doing it myself in return after not very long. :)
posted by cairdeas at 10:37 AM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


Nine people remain in critical condition after Friday's mass shooting, Aurora Mayor Steve Hogan said on "Face the Nation" on Sunday.

He also said they are in "bad shape."

"There are people who have had already numerous surgeries, numerous brain surgeries. There are some folks that are in bad shape," he told host Bob Schieffer. "Some of these victims... are going to be paralyzed for life."

posted by futz at 10:39 AM on July 22, 2012






"Warner [Bros.], the studio behind the Batman flicks, decided to hold off on releasing debut numbers for 'The Dark Knight Rises' this weekend out of respect to the shooting victims and their families. Other studios followed suit, saying that like Warner, they would not issue their usual Sunday estimates, waiting instead until Monday, when they normally release final dollar counts for the weekend.

It's an unusual show of harmony in a business where studios jostle and elbow one another for the right to proclaim in ads: 'The No. 1 movie in America!'"*
posted by ericb at 11:02 AM on July 22, 2012


Twenty states now have these so-called "stand your ground" laws. Shouldn't it be harder than that to "shoot first and ask questions afterward?"

Many killers who go free with Florida 'stand your ground' law have history of violence
posted by homunculus at 11:23 AM on July 22, 2012


You can almost glean the falling levels of trust and good faith in our society by the way acquaintances take the opportunity to badmouth the inconsequential manners of the perp. In the old days "he was a quiet man" was a stock phrase from neighbors and coworkers to telegraph the idea that they would have never suspected anything bad about this person. But nowadays most people who get interviewed seize upon every nerdy or queer (or even totally average) personality quirk of the perp to telegraph that they knew that creepy little fuck always had it in him. It's like they are palpably smug about how petty and untrusting they are about fellow citizens: "Look, I was right! He was a creepy maniac!" Great, except 99.9999999% people aren't. And anyway that isolation instinct (other people are a threat!) contributes to the kind of atomized society this event happens it, it doesn't help. And this applies to more common crimes as well such as "stranger danger" and child molestation.
posted by dgaicun at 11:27 AM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


I don't know that gun laws would make a difference, but I do think the gun enthusiast attitude is symptomatic of the problem in general. People seem to think we're talking about a game of cops and robbers, or whatever the video game equivalent is that kids actually play these days. But we're talking about murder.

This is why PTSD rates are so high - soldiers go into the army thinking it's gonna be fun to bag themselves some afghanis and then they experience actually killing human beings and they are not prepared for it. I wonder how many of you who carry a gun for protection have actually used it to kill someone. Many people who have report that it is a burden heavier than losing an iPhone.

As for the second amendment and citizen's rights, it ultimately seems pretty depressing. If it's for self-defense, you are encouraging a world in which everyone must look out for themselves, a devolving society like Hobbes' 'nasty, brutish & short' pre-civilization. If it's to start violent revolution against the gov't, I don't see how Ted Kaczyinski and Timothy McVeigh aren't heroes.

The example people most often use is that they'll use it when the evil gov't comes to take their gun away - so the point of it is only to keep the gun that you can use to keep the gun that you can use to keep the gun...
posted by mdn at 11:28 AM on July 22, 2012 [7 favorites]


Many killers who go free with Florida 'stand your ground' law have history of violence

Who could have guessed that such a stupid law would have unintended consequences.
posted by adamdschneider at 11:35 AM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Michael Bloomberg calls on Obama and Romney to state position on gun control laws.

Obama Joins Romney in Gun-Control Silence After Shootings
posted by homunculus at 11:38 AM on July 22, 2012




corb, you have a very high opinion of your fellow Americans if you believe your definition of responsible gun ownership is shared. Until we understand how to make sure that no gun owner is a "casual" gun owner (that's a pretty tame word you chose for it, by the way), and must jump through many hoops (every few years) no one should have guns. And also, do you have kids? All the careful coaching in the world can't prevent that moment of childish impulse.

Sorry if I was unclear: I didn't meant to imply that the term for people who indulge in irresponsible methods of gun storage should be "casual user," but more that there is a strong correlation between people who are casual users (take the gun out once or twice a year to go shooting and then forget about it the rest of the time) and people who are serious users (handle their guns regularly, are constantly cleaning, tinkering, checking, etc.) Casual users may not want to buy a safe for the one gun they possess. Serious users, who generally have more than one gun, would think it crazy not to have such a safe at the very least a locking, secured container.

When you only take your gun out once a year, you might keep it in the top of a closet or some other strange place, because you don't anticipate needing it ready to hand. You don't check it, so you have no idea if someone has taken it. You don't take it out, so you don't show your kids.

Kids are impulsive and curious, but that generally tends to apply to things they think they can get away with or that will be fun. Kids that don't use guns, once they've seen the gun kill something, tend to be incredibly, incredibly aware that guns can kill people, and not just uninterested, actively unwilling to handle it. Children who accidentally kill with guns tend to be children who are unaware of gun safety or how dangerous actual guns are.

I do have a child, though. She has, thus far, developed no inclination or ability to safecrack, so I think i"ll probably be good when I do choose to move firearms out of storage into the house.
posted by corb at 11:59 AM on July 22, 2012


But nowadays most people who get interviewed seize upon every nerdy or queer (or even totally average) personality quirk of the perp to telegraph that they knew that creepy little fuck always had it in him.

QFMFT.

Folks, we are not going to fix the problem of wanton violence with more "responsible" handling of our deathware, and we're not going to fix this problem by acquiescing to more authoritarianism. We are going to fix this problem by exercising some of that vaunted personal responsibility with the aim of exhibiting compassion, rationality, empathy, circumspection, trust, adaptability, and tolerance, and endeavouring to build communities based on these values instead of on superstition, suspicion, sentimentality, authoritarianism, tribalism, and competition over stupid shit. This is something that has to be done on a small scale, involving oneself and the people in one's immediate surroundings.

More than any of the pro-gun rhetoric, or pointless asshole/coward vitriol, the depressing thing, for not-usually-news-media-reading-me, about this discussion is the state of journalism. My experience with MeFi is that y'all are awesome at finding things on the internet that comment on the world in insightful, thought-provoking ways. I'm definitely not criticizing anyone for any link they posted. I'm depressed about the fact that even the "journalism" that made it through the Filter is so blindingly yellow and vapid. (Is the Fox who authored one of the "mental health"-angled articles like the spouse of the Prof. Fox interviewed in the article, who is quoted while spouting irresponsible conjecture and soundbitey generalization over dinner, or what?) I can't help but think that the most "mentally ill" actor in incidents like this one is our culture itself, spewing mindless word salad into its own ears to assuage its own manufactured shock, and that, if, as they suggest, craziness begets violence, it's no wonder our culture produces a steady stream of bloodshed of various types.

TL;DR, what dgaicun and jessamyn said in their excellent posts above.
posted by kengraham at 12:53 PM on July 22, 2012 [8 favorites]


It's like they are palpably smug about how petty and untrusting they are about fellow citizens: "Look, I was right! He was a creepy maniac!"

Oh I came across a very blatant example of that just earlier -- I was reading this article on the guardian about a landlady who refused to rent her flat to this person "because he seemed 'unreliable'" - the details are she was "concerned with his failure to return phone calls or even answer the phone when she rang him".

Look how the article starts:
Joanne Southard has probably never had a greater vindication of her gut instincts than her decision last April to refuse to rent an apartment to James Holmes.
And she's quoted as saying:
"Thank God I had a sixth sense, otherwise he might have tried to build that thing in one of my apartments," she said.
As if a prospective tenant who doesn't answer the phone or return missed calls wouldn't turn off anyone who's renting out an apartment.
posted by bitteschoen at 1:14 PM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


Oh, for pete's sake. Screening calls is going to be considered "creepy" and "wrong" now? I give up. When can I move to the freakin' moon?
posted by palomar at 1:30 PM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


I understand, in the aftermath of something horrible like this, people will grasp at anything to explain how someone who does something like this is obviously twisted and evil and with hindsight every single action of theirs becomes suspect and is picked apart and pointed at as an explanation.

But good lord. The things being used to paint this guy as a creepy weirdo are the same things all kinds of people do, and those people never end up killing anyone. I don't interact a whole lot with my neighbors, I screen my calls, I'm quiet and shy and I probably appear to be a loner. And judging from some of the commentary in this thread and elsewhere, many people would use those things to judge me as a creepy weirdo who should be feared, reviled, and possibly locked up against my will because I don't fit the narrow scope of what might be considered "normal".

I don't know what the solution is, but I am so tired of living in this world. I want a different one.
posted by palomar at 1:40 PM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


No, but I do think screening the calls of your prospective landlord, when you're in the middle of actively trying to rent their place and become their tenant is odd. In generally, when you're in the middle of engaging with someone in a business deal, you know they're waiting for you to get certain things done, and you know there's a time element involved where they will lose money if you don't get those things done in a timely way, screening their calls is odd.
posted by cairdeas at 1:40 PM on July 22, 2012


If you're in the middle of trying to work out a deal with another landlord, then it makes sense to screen calls. That way if the deal doesn't work out, you can call back and get your second choice.

Has no one ever scouted several home/apartment leads at the same time before?
posted by hermitosis at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2012 [4 favorites]


vindication of her gut instincts

Yet another in the multifaceted panoply of factors resulting in the continued elusiveness of nice things.

Culture: the final product of a functioning gut is poop, not good decisions. Joanne Southard should GHOFB, because her intuition-poop is not news, which is the Guardian's raison d'etre, and treating it as such is irresponsible, sensationalistic, and making me and palomar feel alienated.
posted by kengraham at 1:46 PM on July 22, 2012 [6 favorites]


Also palomar, it can go the other way too, where we (speaking as a geek), can get overly defensive about things that really do legitimately set people's alarm bells off.

I'm reminded of the trial of Hans Reiser, accused of murdering his wife, where during his trial the judge told Reiser (paraphrasing bc I don't remember the exact words), that he came off as arrogant, uncooperative, malicious, behaving suspiciously, things like that.

There was an absolute volcano of anger from the tech community, where Reiser was/is prominent. Anger about how geeks are just misunderstood and their innocent behaviors are taken badly, and the judge must be misunderstanding Reiser's completely innocent, geekly way of being, and Reiser now had his life on the line because of this anti-geek witch hunting. I remember there was also speculation that he was an Aspie and this was all just a disgusting example of anti-Aspie sentiment.

Then, Reiser admitted murdering his wife and led police to where he had hidden her body.
posted by cairdeas at 1:48 PM on July 22, 2012 [4 favorites]


It doesn't mean anything, in this context, that the guy was formal on email applications or screened his calls. It doesn't say a thing about why he went into that theater and did what he did. This seems more like a coping mechanism for the people whose lives intersected with his, even in small ways.

Everybody wants to say they knew, because that gives them some sort of power over the situation. It gives them the feeling that they have put the murderer at a distance from themselves. I didn't let him into my gun club, I didn't let him rent my apartment. So I can see why people say things like that, to try to give themselves some power in a situation like this. It's not relevant, though. It's just news filler.

(My outgoing voicemail calmly tells people that I'm with another client, but if they leave their location and the number of zombies pursuing them, I will get to them as soon as possible. Most of the messages I get start with someone having a gigglefit. Clearly I'm a crazed loner, what with my evil scheme of trying to make businesspeople and pharmacists crack up at work.)
posted by cmyk at 1:51 PM on July 22, 2012 [9 favorites]




I'm intrigued that the NRA's webcast was focused on the U.N. issue. One of the most unnerving things things I've read among all the filler commentary is this article, "Was Colorado Shooting Staged by the Government?" (warning: link to the Western Center for Journalism, founded by birther Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily and headed by Floyd Brown, who co-founded Citizens United):
More and more, this shooting is looking like a deliberate plot staged by the government itself much like Operation Fast and Furious pulled off by the ATF which helped smuggle tens of thousands of guns into Mexico for the purpose of causing “gun violence” in the USA, then blaming the Second Amendment for it.

All this looks like James Holmes completed a “mission” and then calmly ended that mission by surrendering to police and admitting everything. The mission, as we are now learning, was to cause as much terror and mayhem as possible, then to have that multiplied by the national media at exactly the right time leading up the UN vote next week on a global small arms treaty that could result in gun confiscation across America.
posted by argonauta at 1:52 PM on July 22, 2012


Most of the news stories that I have seen say that Holmes was a normal nice quiet guy. People who have known him such as neighbors and classmates are shocked.
posted by futz at 1:53 PM on July 22, 2012


Ah, just found what the judge actually said in the Reiser case:

"You’re not going to delay this trial," an angry judge chided the defendant.

"You are rude. You are arrogant. There are not enough words in the
English language to describe the way you are," Judge Goodman said. He added Reiser has "made a mockery of these proceedings."

The judge continued: "You have lawyers. I’m tired of listening to you talk."


On the page where I found this (where it was published before Reiser revealed his wife's body), here is part of the very first comment on this story:

This is an excellent example of an ugly case with an extraordinary number of relevant questions that the prosecution can't answer. Normally that results in no charges (yet?) or a plea bargain. But when the defendant is not someone the legal system "likes", like a socially inept geek -- or in past years any Black man -- then the questions the defense can't answer seem take on sinister overtones.

posted by cairdeas at 2:01 PM on July 22, 2012


The lesson these acquaintances take from the situation is always the opposite of what it should be too. It's always, "he was weird loner, so it's a good thing I stayed away!" Why don't we hear from more people who were like "he seemed like he was becoming more distant, so I started meeting him for lunch to check up on him"? The answer is probably because no one did that. Everyone thought avoiding weirdos was somehow a civic act (instead of a selfish one), which is why this is what interviewees are bragging about.

See also; the wisdom of Marge: "Nelson's a troubled, lonely, sad little boy. He needs to be isolated from everyone."
posted by dgaicun at 2:02 PM on July 22, 2012 [7 favorites]


Why don't we hear from more people who were like "he seemed like he was becoming more distant, so I started meeting him for lunch to check up on him"?

Well, first, of all, if you did that, and everything turned out okay, there would really be no occasion for you to talk about it, and nobody would ever hear about it.

Second, I think people *do* often do this in times when people seem distant and lonely, but harmless. But if someone strikes you as really weird and off, that is different. If they scare you, then you stay away. I don't think people really *scare* others just by being quiet and isolated, it takes more than that.

When I was in high school I had this incredibly caring and idealistic friend. There was a distant and isolated boy who had moved to our school. He seemed very "off" and really creepy, but she didn't care and tried to be his friend. Months later, she had to ask him not to contact her again, and in response, he broke into her house planning to attack her, attacked her father's girlfriend when that was the only person he found, then slit his wrists under her bed.

There are real consequences to becoming involved with people who set off your alarm bells, in the real world. It's not rare.
posted by cairdeas at 2:08 PM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


Oh, for pete's sake. Screening calls is going to be considered "creepy" and "wrong" now? I give up. When can I move to the freakin' moon?

The way I read it was a simple "he didn't return my calls timely enough", I assume it means he was unreachable for maybe a whole day or two while in the middle of trying to get the flat.

And I screen calls too because I get a lot of stupid marketing calls, I only answer if I see caller ID and it's someone I know, but if I am interested in a flat and the landlady/company leaves a message well I'd return the call soon as possible. Anyhow -- the point was that even normal behaviour, because even failing to return the call for two days is not at all "creepy" - it's at worst a sign that you're either a bit messy or just plain not interested in the flat anymore and can't be bothered to say it outright, and to be fair the landlady in question only said "unreliable" and "a little off" - gets turned into a news story in itself, with the benefit of hindsight. Of course the woman must be *relieved* now, given how he boobytrapped his flat, that's obvious. But that's just relief after the fact, not "vindication of gut instinct" or "thank god I had a fifth sense". If you're trying to rent a flat you want to rent it to someone who shows active interest, that's all. It's all normal in itself.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:17 PM on July 22, 2012


Here's a decent short admonition about the dangers of constructing a narrative too early, from the guy who wrote Columbine.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:22 PM on July 22, 2012 [14 favorites]


I had a friend in high school who was a good guy. We got along. But he was also disturbed, and there was a point where he kind of 'snapped.' Not in an evil way, not in a horrific way, but in the sense that one day he was the depressed/frustrated/anxious kid I'd gotten used to, and the next day he felt like someone different. He was sad, he was in need of help, he was very angry.

High school was over 10 years ago for the both of us now. I don't have any contact with him any more, but a tiny amount of Facebook stalking tells me that he appears to be doing okay. I'm glad for him. I hope he's not so angry anymore; I hope he isn't so sad.

But what I want to say is this: there was a while where he and his behavior really disturbed me, as well as the rest of his social group. There was something wrong. And his 'snapping' occurred right around the same time as Columbine, so we were more than predisposed to worry about how wrong my friend seemed. However, there's no good way for me to explain to you how he seemed wrong. I could try to explain by pointing to specific things he did that seemed so distressing. What still stands out in my mind is that he wore three-piece suits for a year, and then instantly switched to Hawaiian shirts and shorts. It was weird.

Of course, it's not weird for high school kids to make dramatic changes to their wardrobes. The weird part about my friend's change, however, is how he did it. The way he shrugged his shoulders when I asked him about it. The way his eyes looked. Just a multitude of tiny indescribable things that really just made you go "Holy shit, what is up with him?" But I can't put them into words. All I could say would be: his wardrobe changed. If news reporters came to me and demanded an explanation of what had made me worried about him, I'd have nothing to say other than that I noticed he changed his style.

So, I don't want to beat up on those people now coming out of the woodwork saying, "I knew there was something creepy about him!" Chances are, there's a fair bit of pattern-searching reflection going on, where they now cling to what they remember as some broad explanation of his personality. But also, I want to suggest that they may just be struggling to express what exactly about his behavior disturbed them so. If the landlady felt "from the gut" that something was off, maybe she was picking up on a wide variety of small details relating to just how this guy interacted with her, but can't really describe them in the appropriate detail. She's left with just, "He didn't answer his phone." There are so many tiny, barely-describable psychological cues we pick up on when dealing with other people, and the landlady and the gun club owner sound like they just don't know how to get across the real meaning of their interactions with the guy. Let's give them a break.

I don't want to give a break to the reporters, though, who are pulling at these statements as if they were obvious signs of trouble. It's one thing for the landlady to say, "It was just really weird how he screened his calls, etc." It's another thing for someone to sit down and make a whole story about how weird the guy was, specifically because he screened his calls. I like restless_nomad's link.
posted by meese at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


But if someone strikes you as really weird and off, that is different.

This is totally true. I think that what's being worried about, here, is that the standards for "really weird" and "off" are uncompassionately low in our culture, especially given the fairly alienating social and economic landscape and the sheer volume of bad things that can happen to people. It's very difficult to calibrate one's alarm bells. I also know that, as a dude, there are whole vistas of creepiness and violence to which I am way less likely to be subject, and that this informs my ideas about alarm-bell calibration.

However, I know people who are creeped out by other people on the sole basis that the other people are:

1. Homeless
2. Foreign
3. Unconventionally dressed
4. Facially tattooed
5. Addicted to drugs
6. Socially "inept"
7. Socially anxious
8. Politically extreme
9. Poor
10. Eccentric in speech and mannerism
11. Not white
....

I doubt any of these sets off your alarm bells, but I'm curious to see you expand on "really weird" and "off", or, even, why, if alarm bells are involved, you can't just say "threatening" instead of "weird".
posted by kengraham at 2:48 PM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


1. Homeless
2. Foreign
3. Unconventionally dressed
4. Facially tattooed
5. Addicted to drugs
6. Socially "inept"
7. Socially anxious
8. Politically extreme
9. Poor
10. Eccentric in speech and mannerism
11. Not white
....

I doubt any of these sets off your alarm bells, but I'm curious to see you expand on "really weird" and "off", or, even, why, if alarm bells are involved, you can't just say "threatening" instead of "weird".


Well, not so fast, kengraham. You're grouping in a whole bunch of different sorts of things. I have frequently felt myself to be in danger around homeless people and people who are addicted to drugs (especially meth). Would I be creeped out by someone JUST because of that, no. I have a frequently homeless (by choice) person in my family, who I love. But the reality is that there is a way higher than average propensity for erratic, dangerous behavior in those groups.

I don't think it's right to lump in people who might feel creeped out in those situations, particularly women, with those who are creeped out by "foreign" people.

With facial tattoos, getting a facial tattoo means that 1. you have a higher than average disregard for social norms; 2. you're not bothered by the fact that you will be unable to hold a conventional job. The degree to which I would be creeped out by a facial tattoo would vary, but I would get away from this guy as quickly and discreetly as I could, I would feel no obligation to make friends with him, and I'm not going to apologize for that.

6. Socially "inept"

One day when I was 22 and waiting at a bus stop, I had a "socially inept" man in his 40's or 50's approach me and ask me for a hug. I said, "No, but you can have a handshake." He extended his hand, and as I moved forward, went in for the hug anyway. Now, this man was very socially inept, but that's not mutually exclusive with being creepy. This guy's lack of understanding or caring about how to operate socially led him to override my stated physical boundaries. It makes you think, okay, what else is he going to try to override?

I'm curious to see you expand on "really weird" and "off",

I could tell you about specific situations where I found people to be creepy, but there's no way to provide some kind of all-encompassing description of what's creepy and what's not, because it's very contextual.

With the boy I talked about before, what was creepy about him was that he wouldn't talk to us, and if we talked to him he would either say something hostile or just ignore us, but he would stare at us and follow us around. He had extremely bad hygiene. I'm not talking about his clothing and how it just wasn't on brand enough for us. I'm talking about a 16 year old boy choosing not to shower for weeks. Later he would come up to the edge of where we were talking and just stand there staring at us, but not saying anything and not replying to us if we asked him questions. (But my friend who I talked about earlier persisted with him, trying to get him to open up.)

or, even, why, if alarm bells are involved, you can't just say "threatening" instead of "weird".

Because, and you especially find this as a woman, lots of creepy people who turn out to be dangerous don't start out anywhere near threatening. They start at plausible deniability, where you are shamed for not being "nicer" to them, and then escalate.
posted by cairdeas at 3:13 PM on July 22, 2012 [10 favorites]


I'm curious to see you expand on "really weird" and "off", or, even, why, if alarm bells are involved, you can't just say "threatening" instead of "weird".

Just wanted to give an example of the impossibility of this. When I had just turned 18, my aunt married this man (she was in her late 30's, he was much older, in his 50's or 60's). We were at a family house for a holiday, scattered around the house. Suddenly, I noticed this guy was off in the corner taking photos of me. I pretended not to notice, and he took about 3 before I looked at him. When I looked at him, he looked embarrassed, smiled, and went to another room. I didn't see him taking a single other picture that day, before or after that happened.

I found that to be "really weird." But it is not something I can generalize. Is it weird to take pictures of an of-age, fully clothed female in-law you are related to while you are at a social family event? How could you ever say so.

But this guy was creepy. Later we were all sitting around the family room, and he pulled my aunt on his lap. From my angle I was the only one who could see he was stroking her ass. There in the room with everyone. But again, is it creepy to touch your wife's ass? Of course not.

They actually divorced very, very quickly, so I never saw him do anything overtly egregious. But this is just my example of how these things can be so subtle that you can't generalize them, and if you tell people, they will say, "oh, that just sound like nothing." So, you just keep these sorts of things in the back of your mind.
posted by cairdeas at 3:41 PM on July 22, 2012 [4 favorites]


I think folks who are getting butt-hurt about people describing this guy's odd behavior are missing something really important:

the dude walked into a movie theater, killed a twelve people, and maimed dozens more.

I don't find it all that strange that acquaintances are saying, "yup, he was kind of a weird dude." And I don't think that's any kind of judgment, witch-hunt, or pathologizing of other people who are also weird. I, too, am often socially awkward. It's possible that, if I flipped out and shot up a movie theater, journalists would be able to find people who'd agree that I was an odd bird, maybe even that they "always had a gut feeling" about me.

But I'm not going to kill anyone, so none of this really matters.

Why does the cultural narrative have to be "he was a nice guy"? What if it's not true? What if this guy was a creepy weirdo who gave off bad vibes? Do we have to lie and pretend he was nice because it might make socially awkward people who aren't mass murderers feel better?
posted by Sara C. at 3:46 PM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Jason Alexander weighs in, makes sense.

So the patriots are correct, gun ownership is in the constitution - if you're in a well-regulated militia. Let's see what no less a statesman than Alexander Hamilton had to say about a militia:

"A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss."

Or from Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Definition of MILITIA
1
a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency
b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2
: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

The advocates of guns who claim patriotism and the rights of the 2nd Amendment - are they in well-regulated militias? For the vast majority - the answer is no.

posted by philip-random at 3:54 PM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


Why does the cultural narrative have to be "he was a nice guy"? What if it's not true? What if this guy was a creepy weirdo who gave off bad vibes? Do we have to lie and pretend he was nice because it might make socially awkward people who aren't mass murderers feel better?

I didn't notice anyone saying that. I think people are questioning the crazed loner reports not because they want to be nice, but they want the truth. The David Cullen article that restless_nomad linked to:
Over the next several days, you will be hit with all sorts of evidence fragments suggesting one motive or another. Don’t believe any one detail. Mr. Holmes has already been described as a loner. Proceed with caution on that. Nearly every shooter gets tagged with that label, because the public is convinced that that’s the profile, and people barely acquainted with the gunman parrot it back to every journalist they encounter. The Secret Service report determined that it’s usually not true.
posted by zamboni at 3:57 PM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


Why does the cultural narrative have to be "he was a nice guy"?

That's not the cultural narrative at all. The cultural narrative is that murderers have an identifying mark on them that people around them missed. Had they not missed it -- had only they intervened! -- this terrible thing would not have happened. That cultural narrative is why people are desperately trying to find one for him. It makes us feel more in control. I can't think of one story of a murderer whose story did not include such a mark.
posted by Wordwoman at 4:08 PM on July 22, 2012 [5 favorites]


I don't find it all that strange that acquaintances are saying, "yup, he was kind of a weird dude." And I don't think that's any kind of judgment, witch-hunt, or pathologizing of other people who are also weird. I, too, am often socially awkward. It's possible that, if I flipped out and shot up a movie theater, journalists would be able to find people who'd agree that I was an odd bird, maybe even that they "always had a gut feeling" about me.

But I'm not going to kill anyone, so none of this really matters.


Exactly! But the people you meet won't know that, and they'll have this whole narrative about dangerous people that you fit into, so they judge you based on that narrative without questioning if it's relevant. Now, you and I are probably less likely to have people think we're serial killers in training, being female, but these kind of contrived narratives are injurious to all people who for whatever reason aren't Stereotypical Americans.

It is what happens after the contrived 'loner with no Facebook' narrative sinks in that affects the perfectly ordinary people, not what happens while the narrative is being formed by a cabal of simpletons who have to fill up the news cycle and are apparently allergic to filling it with anything of substance.

I'm not objecting to people acting to protect themselves from perceived threats. I'm objecting to people making weird links from surly behavior to sociopathy on the prompting of media personnel who proceed to publicize those completely uniformed and ridiculous ideas.
posted by winna at 4:13 PM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Why does the cultural narrative have to be "he was a nice guy"? What if it's not true? What if this guy was a creepy weirdo who gave off bad vibes? Do we have to lie and pretend he was nice because it might make socially awkward people who aren't mass murderers feel better?

Because a culture of extreme paranoia combined with constant reinforcement of the concept of "other" people who should be marginalized for any small infraction of our desperate American conformity is a massively overlooked problem. In other nations, they view these acts as a failure of society in intercepting behavior before it turns violent. In America, we seem to operate on puritan rules of punishment that actually accomplish very little in improving the lives of people who have even slight personality disorders, or conditions like PTSD which are exacerbated by the atmosphere of terror and violence we are constantly presented with from news media.

Everyone is weird. Giving others the benefit of doubt is the right thing to do, because it makes our society more inclusive and more open to the reality that we all are capable of major moral failures, even horrific acts like this one.

For comparison, in Norway where they lost many more people in a similar attack, most Norwegian police do not carry weapons, and those that do have to seek authorization before they can use them.
"I would prefer to live in a society where police normally work unarmed,” said Johannes Knutsson, a professor of police research at the Norwegian Police University College. “It is a very forceful and symbolic sign to the citizens that this is a peaceful society."
Despite all of the fear and terror spread by sensationalist forms of media, America is a very safe place when compared to many places on earth. Once you normalize ostracizing anyone with slight personality problems, you're on the path to ensuring the people who need compassion the most are the least likely to get it. Facing the fear and accepting the reality that you're going to die and ditching apathy for a genuine ethos — in other words, growing up — and making an effort to know your neighbors and give strangers the benefit of the doubt would go a long way towards making this country a much nicer place to live.

Having said that, I understand why people are distancing themselves from this person. It's easier, and honestly comforting, to pretend like "they" are "loners" and "evil" rather than to accept the more plausible reality: our society is beginning to fall apart in some areas. We no longer have, or choose to utilize, resources to care for our citizens who can't take care of themselves. We no longer care about our neighbors, so long as they don't kill us. We don't make eye contact on the subway. We're armed to the teeth and afraid to go outdoors and afraid to make meaningful changes to police and drug policy to start rehabilitating people instead of recycling them through our prison system, because we abandoned state hospitals to save money.

It's not all bad — we're making progress here and there — but after so many gun deaths every year, it's pretty obvious that we need to make some very serious changes to policies on guns, prisons, mental health, and drugs. But it's easier to blame individuals than it is to take up the responsibility to fix a system that is, by all accounts, a complete failure.
posted by deanklear at 4:18 PM on July 22, 2012 [5 favorites]


Jason Alexander weighs in, makes sense.

Bill Kristol weighs in, makes sense.

Wait, what?
posted by homunculus at 4:22 PM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]


Gotta love having a gun around.

Cop shoots and kills son after reportedly mistaking him for an intruder.
posted by ericb at 4:24 PM on July 22, 2012 [5 favorites]


Thanks for the response. My comment ended up being more problematic and distracting than I wanted, and not accomplishing it's goals very well, but I appreciate that you answered anyway.

Well, not so fast, kengraham. You're grouping in a whole bunch of different sorts of things.

Yes; this was intended, in a way, but this is the first thing I didn't do so well. The idea behind giving a wide variety of examples was to figure out what you meant by "really weird" and "off" by triangulating between answers to more concrete questions, and I see that you've responded to some of them specifically. I understand that "creepy" or "really weird" or "off" are extremely contextual, and intuitive, and maybe impossible to articulate, and I think it advances the discussion to have some examples and non-examples of what you meant. I didn't intend to lump people together, exactly. I was saying: here are a few random things that creep people out. Which, if any, are you talking about when you say "really weird/off"?

I had a "socially inept" man in his 40's or 50's approach me and ask me for a hug. ...

That is shitty, and it's good to be reminded that that kind of thing happens a lot, even if I don't see it much, and reasonably informs people's level of vigilance.

(Do dudes who harass women in this sort of way not do it when I'm around? Because I know from numerous stories like this that it happens all the time, but I very rarely witness it, and I can't imagine that my bespectacled 125-pound ass is serving as some kind of deterrent. Is making the existence of harassment hard for non-harassing men to be aware of a strategic move by harassing men to maintain a culture in which this sort of shit is accepted, or not universally understood? This is kind of related, because if men harassing women only in the absence of other men is a real thing, and not just a figment of my obliviousness of my surroundings, it means that things are set up so that men are going to have to think about stuff way beyond their own experience in order to contribute sensibly to a discussion about personal threat-assessment, as is to an extent the case with me, here.)

I feel like I didn't do a very good job with some of the list, though, because "socially inept" isn't really any clearer than "weird" and "off". By "socially inept", I meant more like "people that make things get awkward when it's their turn to say something during the small talk with the casual acquaintance, because they haven't internalized the protocol", not "likely predatory and without regard for someone's stated personal space boundaries". I wasn't there, and I don't know the guy, but I wonder if that incident was about him being socially inept, or him being an active douche with no regard for human autonomy etc.

I would feel no obligation to make friends with him

I'm not asking for apologies, or saying that anyone should be friends with anyone else. I, too, would give that dude wide berth. I'm not sure that, all other things being equal, disregard for social norms governing personal appearance and unconcern with one's ability to hold a conventional job are personal attributes that we should incorporate into our getting-sketched-out mechanisms, though, if we don't want to perpetuate a culture of fear. There's plenty about that dude, beyond those two attributes, that is scary.

They start at plausible deniability, where you are shamed for not being "nicer" to them, and then escalate.

If this means that, at the first sign of escalation, the alarm bells ring, then I think we pretty much agree. Maybe I've just been overreacting to some of the things said in some of the articles; I don't know. But I'm having this uncomfortable feeling, now, that even though I wouldn't dream of trying to hug strangers, and I do shower, I may be the sort of person who triggers alarm bells because of stuff that's so deeply part of who I am that it can barely be called behaviour.

Actually, it's uncomfortable because people have every right to be vigilant around me, say, because I have a monotonous voice and a limited casual-conversation supply and (non-facial) tattoos and a weird haircut, and it's less clear that everyone has the right to the constant benefit of the doubt. What's scary is that that doesn't fit too well with a culture that likes to draw bright good/evil lines and glorifies self-defense and permits heavy-handed enforcement of laws and norms.
posted by kengraham at 4:38 PM on July 22, 2012


Why does the cultural narrative have to be "he was a nice guy"?

I think I'm one of the butt-hurt ones, but I never said anything about what the narrative has to be. What I actually said, originally, is that bullshit conjecture and innuendo and armchair psychoanalysis from someone who had one tiny interaction with the guy doesn't belong in a newspaper.

I also said some stuff later about balancing tolerance and against legitimate caution, and I'm actually still in the midst of trying to figure out what I think about this by asking people questions, so, if I am indeed one of the butt-hurt ones, please don't misrepresent what I'm doing by saying that I'm trying to construct a cultural narrative that I haven't tried to construct.

I've certainly complained about what I think the cultural narrative is, but have made no claims about what I think it should be.

If I'm not one of the butt-hurt ones, disregard this.
posted by kengraham at 4:46 PM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


Do dudes who harass women in this sort of way not do it when I'm around? Because I know from numerous stories like this that it happens all the time, but I very rarely witness it

Just fyi and not to derail but yes this is the case, it is a Known Thing. It's not just other men not being around, it's basically no one being around or no one being around in a "paying attention" sort of way.
posted by jessamyn at 4:48 PM on July 22, 2012 [8 favorites]


Yeah, I guess we can just ignore the rapes and outright murder, since I did specifically say "mugging". Who'd want to defend themselves against those?
Most rapes in this country are prison rapes. After that, date rape type situations are more likely.

Anyway, the point is you said statistically each person gets mugged about twice, then amended that to 1 in every two people over their lifetimes. Both of those are false. Now you're picking other random crime statistics.

I'm not going to waste my time proving you wrong again, once is enough.
posted by delmoi at 4:57 PM on July 22, 2012 [4 favorites]


Thanks jessamyn.
posted by kengraham at 5:01 PM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


I don't call people who would rather give their wallets over than harm someone "pacifist nuts."

There's a huge difference between "harm" and "kill." Intending to harm someone who wants to rob you - I can grok that. Intending to kill someone who is trying to rob you - no, you've lost me. Completely lost me. Others have said it better - I can not agree with the point of view that a wallet is worth more than anyone's life.

You must not store your rifle loaded. And ammunition must be stored separately.

As a parent who herself grew up in a house with guns, this makes PERFECT sense to me. You mention your own children in your comment - think of this not as a way to deter people from owning guns, but to deter the worst kinds of accidents when children find their parents' guns. And yes, even the best supervised kid gets curious sometimes.

That you both have children and are willing to take the life of another person over a possession... I truly, truly not only can't see eye to eye with you on this, but I can't even see your point of view with the assistance of NASA.

Children are not in danger in responsible, legal gun households. They're in danger in irresponsible, illegal ones.

This is absolutely not true. If you advocate for keeping a loaded gun in a house with a child, that child is in danger. I say this as someone who grew up with guns - plural - in the home. Had my parents left the guns loaded or kept the ammo unlocked, I absolutely would have been in danger as I was a child - albeit one who was instructed in gun safety, I was still a kid and kids are curious and accidents happen. It doesn't matter how many times you give them the gun safety talk - haven't you ever noticed that you have to keep saying the same thing to your kids over and over again? Do you think a kid who, by nature, will argue that no, it's not really bedtime or no, he doesn't need to eat peas is going to inherently understand that you meant what you were saying about guns?

I mean, hell, I've seen kids injure themselves on clipboards. Honest to Dog, the only time in my nannying career I needed to take a kid to an ER was because he got his finger stuck in a clipboard. I've seen kids squirt bug repellent directly into their own eyes. Kids are clumsy. If you have a loaded gun in your home, it is a danger to a child. Having a toddler of my own I can attest that everything in a house is something that a kid can potentially injure himself on. The thing about guns is that they're a lot more likely to kill a kid than a clipboard or a bottle of bug repellent.

Kids are impulsive and curious, but that generally tends to apply to things they think they can get away with or that will be fun. Kids that don't use guns, once they've seen the gun kill something, tend to be incredibly, incredibly aware that guns can kill people, and not just uninterested, actively unwilling to handle it.

This doesn't hold up with my own memories of my own childhood - in which I scoured my house for anything hidden and "interesting" including my mother's old high school diaries, boxes of old guitar picks, and my own baby clothes. If it was in a box - I wanted in the box. If it was on a shelf - I wanted to see it. It didn't matter how mundane the object was, just looking at the forbidden object was FUN. Hell, I considered last year's Christmas Cards to be a worthy treasure hunting find. My dad's guns? I don't know what I would have done had I found one, but it's for the best that I never did and that he never kept them loaded.

I do have a child, though. She has, thus far, developed no inclination or ability to safecrack, so I think i"ll probably be good when I do choose to move firearms out of storage into the house.

Reading this made me shiver and I pray to whatever gods may or may not exist that you're right.
posted by sonika at 5:31 PM on July 22, 2012 [10 favorites]


When will America wake up to gun violence?
In 1996, then-Prime Minister John Howard stated that the "whole scheme is designed to reduce the number of guns in the community and make Australia a safer place to live." The Australian attorney general praised the cooperation and responsibility of Australian firearms owners with the gun controls and buy-back...

Of course, the Australian gun control law in 1997 enjoyed an extremely high level of public support and was not hampered by any domestic gun industry (since Australia did not have any).
I should have thought of that, but I didn't: when you look at the number of violent gun deaths and the relative size of gun industries, one fact emerges: western nations that don't have large industries also seem to have more comprehensive gun controls and fewer gun deaths. And yet it seems that the NRA goes beyond even what the gun industry is willing to compromise on:
Annual revenues for the NRA approached $150 million in 1994 as the group attracted a more active and high profile membership. The group spent $15 million on a new headquarters in Fairfax, Virginia, in the mid-1990s and also invested in a new computer system.

To address issues of increasing violent crime in the country, the NRA called for more prisons, tougher sentences, and more law enforcement officers. However, the Association continued to struggle with public relations issues and alienated certain law enforcement groups. Congressman John Dingell, an NRA board member, had called the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) a 'jackbooted group of fascists' in one of the group's promotional films in 1981. The NRA repeated the rhetoric in a 1995 fundraising letter, prompting former president George Bush to rescind his life membership.

In October 1997, nine firearms manufacturers, including Smith & Wesson, announced they were voluntarily adding child safety locks to their products. The unprecedented break from NRA policy was prompted by a litigious climate that had cities such as Chicago and New Orleans filing lawsuits similar to the ones that had been launched against the cigarette industry. The gun makers risked a boycott by NRA members who opposed compromise of any kind. According to Newsweek, the publicly-traded Sturm, Ruger firm had faced such a boycott earlier in the decade after it came out in favor of limiting high capacity ammo clips for assault weapons.

In 1997, in the face of such challenges, the NRA began publishing The American Guardian, designed to appeal to a more general audience, with less emphasis on technical subjects and more on self-defense and sporting uses for firearms. Membership in the NRA, after reaching at 3.5 million, had fallen by about a million in the mid-1990s. Still, the group held the largest convention in its history in 1998, attracting 41,000 attendees. In the same year, the NRA elected as its president the actor Charlton Heston, perhaps best known for his performance as Moses in the epic film The Ten Commandments. Another famous actor, Tom Selleck, appeared in a new round of magazine advertising for the NRA.

In the late 1990s, following several highly publicized incidents of violence involving guns among American teenagers, some polls indicated that 70 to 80 percent of Americans favored stricter gun control laws. However, Newsweek reported, the fear of political retaliation from the NRA killed a new round of gun control bills in June 1999. NRA membership climbed again late in the decade. By May 2000, the Association reported 3.7 million members fighting challenges to the right to bear arms.
I have heard the NRA was a bad influence, but they seem to be dead set on turning America into a war zone full of prisons, weapons, and punishment. Three and a half million people are setting our policy and spending hundreds of millions to resist sensible gun policy with propaganda. I think any attempt to return sanity to our weapons policy will involve putting the NRA out of business.
posted by deanklear at 5:54 PM on July 22, 2012 [10 favorites]




ColdChef, that's awesome.
posted by idest at 6:24 PM on July 22, 2012


ColdChef, wow! Great great great smiles all around. Fantastic photo, thank you so much for this wonderful follow-up after all this relentless grim news and conversation.
posted by thinkpiece at 6:26 PM on July 22, 2012 [1 favorite]


Aw, that's great. It sure is nice to see her grinning.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:27 PM on July 22, 2012


This is absolutely not true. If you advocate for keeping a loaded gun in a house with a child, that child is in danger. I say this as someone who grew up with guns - plural - in the home. Had my parents left the guns loaded or kept the ammo unlocked, I absolutely would have been in danger as I was a child - albeit one who was instructed in gun safety, I was still a kid and kids are curious and accidents happen.

The thing is, kids can be curious all they want. If the guns are stored in a locked gun safe, it doesn't matter if the guns are loaded or unloaded - they have no access to them. They can stare at the locked gun safe all day if they want to, but a safe designed to frustrate adult burglars is not going to be cracked by even a bored teenager holed up in your house all day. Even the cheaper safes are going to be extremely difficult for kids to get into.

This doesn't hold up with my own memories of my own childhood - in which I scoured my house for anything hidden and "interesting" including my mother's old high school diaries, boxes of old guitar picks, and my own baby clothes. If it was in a box - I wanted in the box. If it was on a shelf - I wanted to see it. It didn't matter how mundane the object was, just looking at the forbidden object was FUN. Hell, I considered last year's Christmas Cards to be a worthy treasure hunting find. My dad's guns? I don't know what I would have done had I found one, but it's for the best that I never did and that he never kept them loaded.

This is actually exactly what I mean about "casual gun owners." People who are casual gun owners don't expose their kids to the guns. They hide them away, and kids go looking for them. They often don't buy safes, and hide them in "boxes in the closet" or what have you. If kids think that guns are "hidden" and "interesting", then yeah, they're going to be really fascinated and always on the lookout for where they might be located. If you show your children exactly where the guns are stored, break apart a weapon in front of them, put it together, show them how to clean them, show them what the use and function of weapons are, etc, then guns are no longer "cool", but "that thing the adults do annoyingly all the time."

Also: if a child is advanced enough in skills to be able to crack a safe, they're able to figure out how to put ammunition into the gun. And I've never met a child with that much determination and criminal know-how.
posted by corb at 6:46 PM on July 22, 2012


f you show your children exactly where the guns are stored, break apart a weapon in front of them, put it together, show them how to clean them, show them what the use and function of weapons are, etc, then guns are no longer "cool", but "that thing the adults do annoyingly all the time."

FYI, my parents did all of this except for showing me where the guns were actually stored. I still don't know how I would have reacted to finding one.
posted by sonika at 7:21 PM on July 22, 2012


Also, ColdChef, ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG. Did I mention ZOMG?!
posted by sonika at 7:22 PM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'm going to assume I'm one of the "butt-hurt" that Sara C. mentioned, and thanks so much for being so snide and dismissive! That's rad.

Here's the thing, though: what I see people doing is exactly what is being cautioned against in the link that restless_nomad posted. And yes, I'll admit that it stings a bit to see some of the things I personally engage in (screening calls, keeping myself to myself, etc.) described in this thread as reasons to be afraid of other people. But here's an idea: maybe instead of slinging derisive little terms at people you disagree with, you could try having some compassion for others? It's nicer, that's for sure.
posted by palomar at 7:56 PM on July 22, 2012 [2 favorites]


Also: if a child is advanced enough in skills to be able to crack a safe, they're able to figure out how to put ammunition into the gun. And I've never met a child with that much determination and criminal know-how.

When I was a little kid, one of my favorite things in the world was figuring out how to defeat safety latches. I never tested my theories about the microwave door, but not not doing so made my soul die a little every time I nuked a frozen burrito. I didn't know how to crack locks, though a friend of mine was good with the combo locks that have key latches in them-- she used to stick a length of spiral notebook wire in the keyhole and then hold it between two fingers while playing with the combination dial until she could feel what caused the tumblers to move.

We were not at Xavier's School for Admirably Bright Mutants. We were normal, bored kids in a crappy, cowy little place in Colorado.

I personally never screwed around with the guns because, being an 80s cold war child, I was a devoted pacificst from pretty much the time I first heard the term, and I found them horrifying. If any of my friends had really wanted to play with them, however, they probably could have talked me into it.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 8:51 PM on July 22, 2012 [3 favorites]




One hero in this, who won't have her name spread around like the prick who caused all this:

Communications

The dispatch handling of this incident was superb. When the tapes of the initial calls and radio transmissions came out, the web was full of incredulity as to the sheer professionalism of those in the communications center. These folks are so often forgotten that I wanted to list them first. They are so integral to the success of the officers in the field and the department has every reason to be proud. I feel certain those tapes will find their way into future training classes for dispatch personnel across the country.


An SA poster said:


I live a few blocks away from this theater, and was trying all month to find a way to take my 6 year old son to the opening. I'm a Denver cop, and scheduled an unpaid day off to do so. Money issues arose and my day off had to be canceled. Instead, I ended up responding to aid Aurora. I have been contemplating posting here, but let me get this out of the way : Denver sent 20 cars, Arapahoe County sent about 15. I did traffic control only, and have nothing I can say about the shooting except what's already out in the press. I just wanted to stress how amazingly APD has handled this, I don't think a better job could of been done. The dispatcher especially. After she sent the tone on the metro net she was handling the call in the most professional manner I've ever heard.

posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:53 PM on July 22, 2012 [8 favorites]


One hero in this, who won't have her name spread around like the prick who caused all this:

Communications

The dispatch handling of this incident was superb. When the tapes of the initial calls and radio transmissions came out, the web was full of incredulity as to the sheer professionalism of those in the communications center.


Here's to spreading it a bit: Kathie Stauffer.
posted by cairdeas at 12:17 AM on July 23, 2012 [6 favorites]


Do dudes who harass women in this sort of way not do it when I'm around?

As a guy who looks very much like a guy, except for that one night back when I had hair and was wearing it long, and it was a pretty dark moonless night, and I was between street lamps, and there were six guys hanging out together, and I was walking alone, I can promise you that men will say things to "women" that you would not believe, in the degree to which they presume on the "woman". The words may have just been something like "Hey, baby, why don't you come over here?" but the tone made me immediately wonder if they were going to attack me, waver between immediately running or walking confidently to show my strength, and question whether I should turn in at my apartment building, which was just a few houses down, because that way they would know where I lived.

Now I'm 5'10', 5'11", usually weigh between 160 and 200 lbs., and grow a convincing 5 o'clock shadow, so it took a pretty special set of circumstances for that mistake to be made. But despite any stories I'd heard before I could not have imagined the feeling of being targeted that I felt then. These days I basically assume that women in America live in a different world than I do.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:12 AM on July 23, 2012 [25 favorites]


Whenever I hear gun advocates talk about "protecting their families" (or more to the point, their stuff), I think of the young couple in the news a year or two ago where the guy ended up shooting the girl due to carelessness and a complete lack of respect for the deadly weapons they (literally) played with. They lived in some sort of hyper-masculine-everyone-is-out-to-get-us fantasy world where they "needed" to practice running through their apartment (as I recall, in a pretty safe neighborhood) with their toys out, shouting "clear" as they went from room to room. There were lots of photos posted on their online albums showing the most frightening and cavalier attitudes towards weapons possible, not just of them, but of their older relatives as well. It was disheartening, sickening, and I suspect not all that uncommon.

Hell, youtube has plenty of clips of people who have no business owning a gun. I sold guns at a sporting-goods store when young, and that type of customer was not uncommon.
posted by maxwelton at 1:29 AM on July 23, 2012 [3 favorites]




Good god, that Russel Pearce stuff... I mean, what can you even fucking say about someone like that? The thinking is so astray, the philosophy is so utterly backwards, the world view is so utterly, batshit corrupted, you just have to shake your head and say "I hope people like this die off quickly and leave more room for the sane people among us." I mean, really. That shit is beyond the pale.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:10 AM on July 23, 2012


Good lord, that Russell Pearce post...

I'm a very law-abiding type. But if these clowns end up taking down civilization, which seems fairly likely with global climate change and all, and we end up in collapse, then I have a little list...

I have to say that things like this do remind me of some of the worst characters in apocalyptic SF novels - you know, those characters you love to hate and eventually get humiliated publicly?

What disturbs me is not these people, because there are always hateful people around - it's that they are popular - it's that millions of people think this sort of thing is a good idea. I have met some of these people...

I'm in the middle of arranging a slow move from the US to Germany - and I have to say that Metafilter was pretty influential in that. I certainly have been told a couple of times here, "If you don't like it, move," and at least one of those times did get me to thinking. And of course posts like this...

I don't see it getting any better till it gets a lot worse, and I'm not a citizen. I don't feel I have to put up with this, and I shan't.

(Funny story... my sister lives in Canada, and when she was in her twenties, she met some distant relative of her partner's who started to go off about "the blacks" and shit like that (her partner's family is otherwise cultured and liberal). She listened for a bit with a dawning realization: "This is one of those 'conservatives' I've read about in US newspapers!" She said she felt like she was in a novel. Oh, to live in a place where these people don't rule the world...)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:43 AM on July 23, 2012


All right, I think I'm leaving this thread, after several days of this.

Please stay safe, but even more, don't worry. You're much more likely to slip and fall in the shower and die than be killed by a terrorist, even a domestic one. These events are prominent news stories just because they are so rare overall....
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:59 AM on July 23, 2012 [3 favorites]


Dear Senator Russel Pearce --

"The men of United Airlines Flight 93" had about a half hour to plan their revolt. They found that the plane had been hijacked at 9:30, but did not act until 9:57. Compare this to the people in the theater in Aurora, who probably only had a minute or two while the shooter was reloading; I have no doubt that even the men of UA flight 93 spent that first minute or two in shock to the point that they could not yet act.

Oh, also - congratulations for being yet another American politician who cannot resist exploiting the worst fucking day of my life for your own personal political punditry. I know you love using 9/11 as a fucking dog whistle but seriously, that shit needs to fucking stop.

Sincerely,

A New Yorker who's not part of your constituency so you wouldn't listen anyway but I had to say something or else I'd go berserk
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:07 AM on July 23, 2012 [15 favorites]


I don't find it all that strange that acquaintances are saying, "yup, he was kind of a weird dude." And I don't think that's any kind of judgment, witch-hunt, or pathologizing of other people who are also weird. ...

Why does the cultural narrative have to be "he was a nice guy"? What if it's not true? What if this guy was a creepy weirdo who gave off bad vibes? Do we have to lie and pretend he was nice because it might make socially awkward people who aren't mass murderers feel better?


fwiw, I think the interesting point to be made is about how the media predictably, and even normally good non-sensationalist media, pick up even non-stories in the frantic rush to news production that follows such events, and, like others have said already, how implications are being made based on such an event about otherwise totally average behaviour - and that point has nothing to do with individual people feeling hurt or behaving in socially awkward ways, it's about the cultural/social assumptions (such as the fact of not having a Facebook account, that's got to be the most egregious example). As a very harmless-looking sociable person who says hi and smiles to all neighbours and overuses facebook like a silly teenager, I find these implications enormously interesting, especially because they're slipped in like that, as an aside, unreflexively. I honestly didn't see where observing this sort of trend in the news was meant as a witch-hunt or anything of the like. Reporters look for any bit of news and they're going to interview or quote anyone who has anything to say, but in my idealistic notion of reporting I believe there should be maybe a higher standard. What does the story about the landlady who refiused to rent her flat to the guy tell us? Nothing, absolutely nothing. It's not the fault of the person quoted or interviewed. It's just, doesn't reflect very well on the quality of the reporting.
posted by bitteschoen at 4:57 AM on July 23, 2012


(ah sorry misread the bit about the "witch-hunt" so ignore that part - what I meant is I didn't see where observing this sort of trend in the news was meant as a criticism or an attack on the people telling reporters these bits of non-news)
posted by bitteschoen at 5:00 AM on July 23, 2012


Watching the advisement now, the alleged shooter seems completely out of it. He looks heavily drugged or dazed. Just...like he's not quite present. Bright reddish orange hair, slight five o clock shadow . He hasn't spoken thus far.

Link.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:34 AM on July 23, 2012


I imagine it's likely not due to drugs and more likely due to the horrible realization that he's just killed twelve people and wounded sixty-something others, and it probably didn't live up to whatever awful fantasy he had in his head.

The second "person of interest" makes me think it was him and one of his buddies, making an echo chamber where this would be amazing and awesome and what have you.

You'd think two people together would lower the crazy, not raise it, but you'd apparently be wrong.
posted by corb at 8:55 AM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


Red-haired Holmes makes his first appearance in court.

Going through the slideshow and watching his facial expressions is a strange experience. Granted he looks tired and confused and overwhelmed, but there seem to be moments of lucidity there that look like defiance or slipping into another mindstate.
posted by Skygazer at 9:12 AM on July 23, 2012


You'd think two people together would lower the crazy, not raise it, but you'd apparently be wrong.

Maybe, but there are numerous cases of murderous duos for whom the opposite was probably the case. Columbine, Leopold and Loeb, Charles Ng and Leonard Lake, the Heavenly Creatures girls, et al.

It'd would be interesting if this second "person of interest" wound up being someone murderous enough to commission a massacre, but savvy enough to not be the triggerman himself. I doubt this is the case, but if it were, that would certainly be quite the story.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:14 AM on July 23, 2012


I wonder what the deal is with Holmes's mother? She seems like a strange and hard person.

Anyhow, looking at those chilling slides of Holmes in the courtroom, I think he's going to take the first chance he gets to the afterlife...you can see he's beyond d o n e, with his life.
posted by Skygazer at 9:27 AM on July 23, 2012


I understand he had to stop and reload.

FFS. He stopped to switch weapons because his semi-automatic rifle jammed. If it hadn't jammed, a lot more people would have died.
posted by homunculus at 9:29 AM on July 23, 2012




you can see he's beyond d o n e, with his life.

Makes you wonder if his original plan had been to off himself right after the massacre, but he couldn't go through with it. Now he has to stay in reality and take his lumps. This part can't be fun for a murderous whatever-he-is.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:40 AM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


9News: Prosecutors say they may consider the death penalty but will make that decision after consulting with victim's families.

Yes let's build socially unproductive shit like retribution into our justice system so we can have a society where revenge, in the form of killing, is officially deemed okay. That'll discourage people who -- however crazily -- feel wronged from redressing their perceived grievances by killing people.

I don't think it's callous to say that a murder trial (presumably that's what this person eventually ends up being charged with) is not about the victim's families and that they shouldn't have any special say in the sentence imposed. That kind of blood-feudy stuff is not what the rule of law is for.

Those pictures are pretty haunting and creepy, though.
posted by kengraham at 9:46 AM on July 23, 2012 [6 favorites]


If a Jammed Assault Rifle saved Lives, wouldn’t no Assault Rifle?

I am so fucking sick of how anti-freedom logic is. Anyone who truly loves America should stop using it immediately.
posted by OmieWise at 9:47 AM on July 23, 2012 [5 favorites]


Kinda hitting me today finally, weird the way this stuff works. I want grab this fuck and ask him what was he thinking??
posted by Skygazer at 9:48 AM on July 23, 2012


You'd think two people together would lower the crazy, not raise it, but you'd apparently be wrong.

I could have told you that. Hell, even a middle-brow thinker like Sting nailed it with the lyric "Men go crazy in congregations; they only get better one by one..."

Tribal/group identity is one of the most pernicious and terrible sources of crazy in the world. Consider football riots: Here in Tallahassee, disappointed fans (whom one can easily imagine with faces and bare chests painted in the war paint of their particular tribe) have literally set upon and beaten complete strangers and set random cars on fire for daring to display the colors of the competing tribe in the aftermath of a lost football game.

It's premature to judge whether or not any of those kinds of pressures played a role in this case, but I suspect they do far more often than our knee-jerk impulse to view acts like this as the work of lonely misfits allows us to consider.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:03 AM on July 23, 2012


Makes you wonder if his original plan had been to off himself right after the massacre, but he couldn't go through with it. Now he has to stay in reality and take his lumps. This part can't be fun for a murderous whatever-he-is.

That's what I think is the oddest about this whole thing, the lengths he went to in order to protect himself from being shot by police. Why in the world would his desire have been to survive and spend years in prison before being executed by the state of Colorado? I mean, not that you can understand the mind of someone who does what he set out to do, no matter the details, but mass murderers so rarely survive their crime. It's especially bizarre that he put a lot of work into making sure that he would.
posted by something something at 10:13 AM on July 23, 2012


I wonder what the deal is with Holmes's mother? She seems like a strange and hard person.

I was wondering when the inevitable mother blaming would start and I'm sad that the first instance I'm seeing of it is on Metafilter.
posted by Wordwoman at 10:17 AM on July 23, 2012 [13 favorites]


I wonder what the deal is with Holmes's mother? She seems like a strange and hard person.

Where are you getting this?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:23 AM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


but there seem to be moments of lucidity there that look like defiance or slipping into another mindstate.

Watching it in real time, I didn't see much defiance or lucidity, but he was definitely slipping into different mindstates, imo.

I don't think he heard a single thing that was said during the hearing. He seemed lost entirely in his own mind.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:26 AM on July 23, 2012


I wonder what the deal is with Holmes's mother? She seems like a strange and hard person.

That's not his mom in the courtroom, if that's who you're referring to -- that's a lawyer or other court official.
posted by mochapickle at 10:27 AM on July 23, 2012 [2 favorites]


Also, the guy looks totally sleep deprived. The other prisoners were chanting Child Killer, Child Killer at him all night. He's in solitary for his own protection. Is it common to sedate prisoners for court appearances?
posted by mochapickle at 10:29 AM on July 23, 2012


That's what I think is the oddest about this whole thing, the lengths he went to in order to protect himself from being shot by police. Why in the world would his desire have been to survive and spend years in prison before being executed by the state of Colorado? I mean, not that you can understand the mind of someone who does what he set out to do, no matter the details, but mass murderers so rarely survive their crime. It's especially bizarre that he put a lot of work into making sure that he would.

I assumed for some kind of manifesto or whatever, but I imagine we'll likely not know until the court bits. He did obviously expect to get caught: see, boobytrapping his own apt.
posted by corb at 10:32 AM on July 23, 2012


He did obviously expect to get caught: see, boobytrapping his own apt.

But my understanding was he seems to have done that just to try to increase the body count. He left his stereo blaring on a loop at full volume and the front door to his apartment slightly ajar, and I've heard accounts that at least one of his neighbors almost went inside to try to ask him about shutting down the noise. Unless those accounts are specious, it seems to me he meant to lure his unsuspecting neighbors into his apartment to set off the booby traps with the loud music and up the casualty count in the process, not necessarily to get caught and take revenge on his pursuers.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:44 AM on July 23, 2012


Maybe, but there are numerous cases of murderous duos for whom the opposite was probably the case. Columbine, Leopold and Loeb, Charles Ng and Leonard Lake, the Heavenly Creatures girls, et al.

This reminds me of a chapter in Colin Wilson's The Criminal History of Mankind where he explores a number of such cases. I read it a long time ago but as I recall, his conclusion is that basically, sometimes it just takes two to tango. That is, one person's homicidal fantasy is likely to remain just that (pure fantasy) unless they happen upon another who shares it. Though that makes it sounds too simple. Often the second person doesn't really have the fantasy, they're just desperate enough for the human connection (the love) to go along with it -- anything to not be alone.

What little I know of the Columbine pair seems to support this. Harris was the psycho pretty much choking on his rage. Klebold was the depressive who found some measure of meaning in Harris's passion.
posted by philip-random at 10:46 AM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


WordWoman: I was wondering when the inevitable mother blaming would start and I'm sad that the first instance I'm seeing of it is on Metafilter.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...you're reading waay too much into that statement so, hold your horses...

I was referring to this:
A California woman who identified herself as the mother of James Holmes, the 24-year-old man federal authorities said is the suspect in a mass shooting in an Aurora, Colorado movie theater, told ABC News her son was likely the alleged culprit, saying, "You have the right person."
That strikes me as a very strange, and yes somewhat hard or unforgiving thing to say about her own son. How was she so sure he was the person responsible is all I'm saying here, please put the daggers away.
posted by Skygazer at 10:50 AM on July 23, 2012


A man named Jason Williford was convicted here in Raleigh, NC a few months ago for the rape and murder of a sedated woman who was recovering from plastic surgery. He was sentenced to life in prison, and after the fact one of the jurors said the major reason they had avoided giving him the death penalty was due to his mother taking the stand and telling, in heartbreaking detail, about how she had known for years that he was seriously, deeply troubled, how she had tried everything, including professional evaluation and counseling and the whole nine yards, to get him help. But nothing could save him - she clearly felt that he couldn't be saved, despite how much she loved him.

When I heard that Holmes' mother had made that kneejerk statement to the first media representative to contact her, I thought of Jason Williford's mom. Without knowing any significant details, it's still hard to avoid the conclusion that most parents, if they are reasonably close with their children at all, would be able to see that their son or daughter has problems of the depth of whatever is going on with James Holmes. I don't think what she said or how she reacted can be read as any sort of conclusion about the type of parent or human being she is; she was just able to see with a clear eye that her son had serious problems.
posted by something something at 11:02 AM on July 23, 2012 [5 favorites]


That strikes me as a very strange, and yes somewhat hard or unforgiving thing to say about her own son. How was she so sure he was the person responsible is all I'm saying here, please put the daggers away.

Nope, still a fucked up thing to say about someone based off a one sentence response to a unknown question.

"Hello, am I speaking to the mother of James Holmes?" "Yes, you have the right person."

Who knows what was said on the phone. That you would judge her as hard and *unforgiving* based off of that is fucked.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 11:13 AM on July 23, 2012 [5 favorites]


There are two things going on here. On the one hand, the parents are in an impossible position. It's very hard for them to say anything that someone couldn't take as indicative of their failure, either to raise their son correctly or to be adequately (and appropriately) horrified by what he did. I can't imagine what it's like to be them, but in many ways (and this might seem like a strange thing to say), I think they've got it harder than the survivors of the folks killed in the massacre. They are (presumably) innocent of any wrong-doing, yet they will be judged as somehow guilty, they will likely feel guilty, they will second-guess themselves and live in torment for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile, they don't have anyone to be effectively angry at, unlike those who can spend some of their psychic energy blaming the shooter.

On the other hand, I think we have a cultural narrative, and a strong social bias, to think that parents are responsible for the behavior of their children. More than that, we don't have a way to talk about, or listen to, parents whose narrative about their children is different from the ones we favor. You see this a lot with new mothers, who sometimes get quite beside themselves when they don't have a great time with the tasks of new motherhood, and they think this makes them somehow inadequate, largely because we don't do a good job talking about how common an experience this is. In the case of parents who feel that there is something really wrong, and perhaps irremediable, with their kids, we tend to think of them as cold or unfeeling, when they may just be right.
posted by OmieWise at 11:21 AM on July 23, 2012 [7 favorites]


I immediately felt for the parents. They may very well have been aware of their son's mental deterioration but not anticipated the violence to follow. They were hundreds of miles away, he's legally an adult, but that statement from the mother seemed to me like this was what her deepest fears for her son were.
posted by readery at 11:32 AM on July 23, 2012


"Hello, am I speaking to the mother of James Holmes?" "Yes, you have the right person."

Who knows what was said on the phone. That you would judge her as hard and *unforgiving* based off of that is fucked.


That's not the way it went. What the fuck are you talking about? (Are you purposely being thick or what??)

READ:

A California woman who identified herself as the mother of James Holmes, the 24-year-old man federal authorities said is the suspect in a mass shooting in an Aurora, Colorado movie theater, told ABC News her son was likely the alleged culprit, saying, "You have the right person."

That's a strange and yeah, pretty "hard" or damning thing for a mother to say about her son without having all the facts.
posted by Skygazer at 11:33 AM on July 23, 2012


Ok you're right. There's no way ABC sensationalized that phone call. No way they asked her if her son was James Holmes of Aurora Colorado who lives at so and so street and she responded with "yes you have the right person." No way! Obviously the mother threw her son under the bus at her first opportunity because obviously she hates him and is a spiteful person because OBVIOUSLY every news report has been 100% accurate and from them we can divine personality deficiencies based off of one sentence responses to questions we don't know.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 11:50 AM on July 23, 2012 [10 favorites]


Is it common to sedate prisoners for court appearances?

A legal analyst said it his highly unlikely that he was sedated because he is required to be competent and must hear any and charges and instructions the judge pronounces throughout all hearings before him. A defense attorney could later claim that her client did not fully comprehend the proceedings, if the police or court had sedated him in any manner.

One of the surviving victims was in court and has stated that he thinks Holmes is playacting ... and "gaming the system," hoping to proceed with an insanity defense.
posted by ericb at 11:56 AM on July 23, 2012 [2 favorites]


He left his stereo blaring on a loop at full volume and the front door to his apartment slightly ajar, and I've heard accounts that at least one of his neighbors almost went inside to try to ask him about shutting down the noise.
Kaitlyn Fonzi said she lives in the apartment directly beneath the one where Holmes lived. She and her boyfriend were trying to go to sleep Thursday when, at midnight, techno music started blaring from upstairs.

“We heard very loud music coming so I walked upstairs and banged on the door,” Fonzi, a 20-year old biology student at the University of Colorado at Denver, said on Friday.

Fonzi said when she banged on the door, it rattled as if it were unlocked. "I contemplated poking my head in and saying, 'Yo, shut that off.'"

Instead, Fonzi said she went back downstairs and called a non-emergency police number. She said the bass-heavy music kept blasting, as if it was just one song on repeat, until it abruptly stopped at 1:00 a.m. She and her boyfriend figured the music had been on a timer.

Fonzi said they went to sleep, but were awoken by police an hour later and told to evacuate. When she learned about the shooting she said she was glad she hadn't poked her head in. Police later said Holmes' apartment had been filled with "various incendiary devices and trip wires."

Fonzi said she and her boyfriend had never had a problem with their upstairs neighbor before. "It was like nobody lived there," she said. *
posted by ericb at 11:59 AM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


*A legal analyst on CNN ...*
posted by ericb at 12:11 PM on July 23, 2012


For what it's worth, this was my understanding of how the call to the mother went down:
A San Diego, Calif., woman who identified herself as Holmes' mother told ABC News she had not yet been contacted by authorities. She said she was unaware of the shooting and expressed concern that her son may have been involved.

"You have the right person," she said, apparently speaking on instinct and not second-guessing her son would be involved. "I need to call the police ... I need to fly out to Colorado."
I'm still not seeing how (or why) someone would criticize her for being strange/hard/unforgiving.
posted by argonauta at 12:13 PM on July 23, 2012


So he left the door unlocked, not ajar--thanks for furnishing the details ericb.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:17 PM on July 23, 2012




This is why we don't judge people based off of one sentence responses to unknown questions:

Damiani read a statement from Arlene Holmes. She said that on Friday morning she was awoken by a reporter from ABC News. Essentially, she said her statements to that reporter have been taken out of context. She was merely saying that yes she was Arlene Holmes and that James was her son. She was not implying that she was not surprised to hear her son was alleged to have shot up a theater.

Fucking news, man.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:40 PM on July 23, 2012 [17 favorites]


The way Holmes' mother was quoted out of context, with ellipses, was suspicious from the get-go. Seems she's saying ABC mischaracterized what she said.
posted by moira at 2:02 PM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


Should have refreshed before posting.
posted by moira at 2:02 PM on July 23, 2012


That's a strange and yeah, pretty "hard" or damning thing for a mother to say about her son without having all the facts.

Replace "mother" with "stranger from the internet" and "son" with "mother of the shooter", and you're talking about yourself here. Interesting, especially as more comes to light and it becomes apparent that she was quoted out of context and that you leapt to the wrong conclusion in your haste to condemn someone.

Again, everyone needs to read the Dave Cullen article that restless_nomad linked way upthread. I'll relink it: Don't Jump to Conclusions About the Killer.
posted by palomar at 2:12 PM on July 23, 2012 [3 favorites]


Never, EVER believe that a reported interview is accurate. I've been interviewed several times, and the accuracy rate has been zero. They are not interested in reporting what someone said. They are interested in building a narrative.

Don't believe it unless you hear or see a recorded version, and even then watch out for tricksy editing.

Seriously. People think, "That can't possibly be the case, they'd get sued." I don't know why it doesn't happen more. Maybe they're more careful if that seems more likely. But a hearsay interview might as well be Herodotus in terms of careful accuracy, far more often than not.
posted by kyrademon at 2:16 PM on July 23, 2012 [9 favorites]


Palomar: Replace "mother" with "stranger from the internet" and "son" with "mother of the shooter", and you're talking about yourself here. Interesting, especially as more comes to light and it becomes apparent that she was quoted out of context and that you leapt to the wrong conclusion in your haste to condemn someone.

"Condemn"? I "condemned" the mother for pointing out how strange and damning it sounded. If anything it's a reason to look at the statement more closely. I put my comment out there in the spirit of trying to deduct and understand. Not as a judgement or a final word, or an examined condemnation.

You're stretching things quite a bit there Palomar. As a matter of fact the self-righteous horseshit in this thread is getting downright insufferable...
posted by Skygazer at 2:24 PM on July 23, 2012


the self-righteous horseshit in this thread is getting downright insufferable...

Best apology ever?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:29 PM on July 23, 2012 [4 favorites]


Yeah, dude, you did. You labeled her statement as strange and damning, and you labeled her as a hard, angry person, on the basis of very shoddy reporting. From where I stand, it seems less like I am "stretching" anything, and more like you put your foot in your mouth and now you want to blame me for it. No thank you. Own your words.
posted by palomar at 2:35 PM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]




Palomar looking at this:

Definition of CONDEMN

transitive verb
1
: to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation

2
a : to pronounce guilty : convict
b : sentence, doom



I'm correct in my assessment that you seem more concerned about some sort of self-righteous witch hunt than you are about accuracy.

I regards to the mother of the shooter, I did not: Declare to be reprehensible, or wrong or evil. And I certainly did not say she was guilty or convict her (?), nor did I sentence or doom her.

What she said was indeed "strange" and it was "hard" and "damning." The key word there is STRANGE, and if this representation of what she actually said, is accurate, it's no wonder it sounded so "strange."

But, condemn and judge her, nope. Believe me, it was a curious impression, I was sharing...
posted by Skygazer at 3:11 PM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


Guys, drop it.
posted by cortex at 3:27 PM on July 23, 2012 [7 favorites]


What kyrademon said has been my own experience too. My family have had agonising times reported in the press, and the sloppiness, inaccuracy, and straight out making shit up that goes on is mind boggling. It's a disgrace.

Facebook-mining by the press is the reason why I stripped and deleted everything from my Facebook account before closing it.
I have a particularly psychotic close family member (the cause of the above agony) who I keep a google news alert on, he hasn't yet committed suicide by police or a similar atrocity, but I honestly expect that one day he will.

Now it seems that if a "journalist" can't dig any dirt from Facebook, they will imply that you are sinister and peculiar for not having an account. Great.

Just recently there was a fatal car crash here, our national broadcaster googled a victim's name and reported that he had previous convictions for aggravated robbery and drinking and drug problems. Wrong guy.
The Capital's major newspaper also published a photo of another victim - only, they had stripped it from Facebook without seeking any approval or confirmation from family, and yes, wrong guy again.
posted by Catch at 3:35 PM on July 23, 2012 [3 favorites]


I was thinking this morning about the back and forth earlier in thread about kids and guns and trying to make guns *mundane* for kids to lessen their interest....

... and it occurred to me that I don't think that it's something that we, as parents, can do. Now, please don't get me wrong - I am not blaming the media for violence in society. Not a bit. But, what I am saying, is that when kids see guns on TV and in movies and on and on and on, there's no amount of "This is a boring thing in the house" that parents can do to make finding a gun boring.

As long as guns are featured prominently in games/TV shows/other media consumed by kids, they're always going to have a certain fascination that will make a kid finding one likely to try and check it out, see how it works. If gun owners want guns to be boring to their kids and strictly utilitarian, we need to lessen our societal fascination with guns, making them something that kids aren't seeing glorified as badass all the time.

(This is strictly referring to guns in the home and the likelihood of a kid being interested in one - I can't emphasize enough that I am not blaming the media for gun violence.)
posted by sonika at 3:52 PM on July 23, 2012


If kids think guns are boring and mundane, then they're more likely to try to play with them, thinking they aren't dangerous. I mean, cars are about as mundane as you can get, but kids are still fascinated by them and excited to learn to drive and you still want them to be respectful of them, and take them seriously lest they get into a horrible car accident.

Also, judging someone's mother based on a single quote is hugely problematic. Apparently she didn't even know about the shooting when she gave the quote. But judging people on the basis of a single sentence is hugely irresponsible. Just look at all the political ads calling Obama "anti-bussiness" because of his "If you have a business... you didn't build that" (referring to the roads and bridges leading up to the business, but that part's left out)
posted by delmoi at 5:17 PM on July 23, 2012


If kids think guns are boring and mundane, then they're more likely to try to play with them, thinking they aren't dangerous.

I kind of doubt this - but it sets up a kind of damned if you damned if you don't dynamic. From what I know of kids, if guns are portrayed favorably (and often glorified), they're going to be interested in a gun that they find wanting to be "cool" and potentially see how it works. What you're saying is the opposite - if kids don't know about guns, they'll be more likely to explore a gun that they find not believing that it's potentially dangerous.

I don't know which of these situations is actually more valid - and I suppose it would depend on the kid - but it seem to me that either way the only way to win would be just not to leave a loaded gun and a kid in the same house.

(Key word being "loaded." Again, my parents kept unloaded guns in the house - locked with separate locked ammunition boxes - and looking back, I truly don't feel like I was ever at risk.)
posted by sonika at 5:24 PM on July 23, 2012




Police seize huge arsenal of weapons from Maine man who saw Batman movie with loaded weapon

Nothing to see here folks - he told police he was at the Batman movie with guns and didn't shoot anyone. His real mission: he was on his way to kill an ex-employer.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:00 PM on July 23, 2012 [2 favorites]


Holy Shit, madamjujujive, that is quite a story! Not only did he go inside the theater to see Batman with a loaded gun in his backpack AND tell the police he was planning on killing someone AND have an AK-47 in his car along with 4 more handguns AND have a cache of weapons in his home including "thousands of rounds of ammunition" he made bail!!!! WTF, indeed.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:14 PM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


But at least his Second Amendment rights haven't been violated, so there's that.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:18 PM on July 23, 2012 [17 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy writes "including 'thousands of rounds of ammunition'"

Thousands of rounds of ammunition is nothing really if one of your guns is a .22. One of the appeals of that size guns is ammunition is cheap so you can do a lot of target shooting for minimal cost and so they sell .22 ammunition in bricks of up to 500. If he has even 10 other calibres in his assorted guns two boxes of ammunition a piece is a thousand rounds. Finally the report says he has a machine gun and it would be reasonable to have a lot of rounds on hand for that.
posted by Mitheral at 7:29 PM on July 23, 2012


Oh and I was going to say, I saw initial court appearance as well. People are talking about possible schizophrenia and the way he was looking around and opening his eyes wide did remind me of this youtube video I saw where Oprah interviewed a little girl with schizophrenia. His eyes could be like that because he's looking at hallucinations or something. But who knows.
Also in Courtois’ car, police found newspaper clippings about the mass shooting Friday during a showing of the same Batman movie at a Colorado movie theater, according to McCausland.
Come on guys he was obviously only bringing his gun into the theater in so he could stop another mass shooting and be a hero! I mean, with all the nut-jobs saying how this could have been prevented if only someone had brought their gun to the theater, because you know - god always makes sure the good guys win in a gun fight even they just have a pistol and the bad guy is wearing bulletproof body armor and a gas mask and fills the room with tear gas first.

Plus, he was planning on killing his boss. Anyone who's played any video games knows an AK-47, several hand guns and boxes of ammo is completely necessary when you're trying to take out a boss.
posted by delmoi at 7:33 PM on July 23, 2012 [1 favorite]


"The men of United Airlines Flight 93" had about a half hour to plan their revolt. They found that the plane had been hijacked at 9:30, but did not act until 9:57. Compare this to the people in the theater in Aurora, who probably only had a minute or two while the shooter was reloading; I have no doubt that even the men of UA flight 93 spent that first minute or two in shock to the point that they could not yet act.
Additionally, they were acting against clear targets armed with knives, not a person armed with guns in a dark and smoke filled room.

It seems to me like a lot of conservatives have weird and totally unrealistic fantasies about how they personally would save the day by blowing the heads off of all the bad guys. It frankly strikes me as absurd and childish.
posted by Flunkie at 8:40 PM on July 23, 2012 [20 favorites]


It strikes me as very 2nd amendment freedom.
posted by de at 8:44 PM on July 23, 2012




I think I just saw ColdChef's family friend on television. She seemed to be in good spirits, which was nice to see. I don't know what kind of mood I would be in.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:34 PM on July 23, 2012


I saw her too -- she expressed compassion and forgiveness for the shooter, which was admirable.
posted by Rumple at 11:03 PM on July 23, 2012


Finally the report says he has a machine gun and it would be reasonable to have a lot of rounds on hand for that.

which leads to the next question: what's reasonable about having a machine gun?
posted by philip-random at 11:22 PM on July 23, 2012 [12 favorites]


... and it occurred to me that I don't think that it's something that we, as parents, can do. Now, please don't get me wrong - I am not blaming the media for violence in society. Not a bit. But, what I am saying, is that when kids see guns on TV and in movies and on and on and on, there's no amount of "This is a boring thing in the house" that parents can do to make finding a gun boring.

As long as guns are featured prominently in games/TV shows/other media consumed by kids, they're always going to have a certain fascination that will make a kid finding one likely to try and check it out, see how it works. If gun owners want guns to be boring to their kids and strictly utilitarian, we need to lessen our societal fascination with guns, making them something that kids aren't seeing glorified as badass all the time.


You know, this is also something I think about all the time, actually. I think we have an incredibly strange relationship to guns in television and movies and other such media. Television and movies and such are generally made by relatively liberal screenwriters, who tend to favor gun control. (I'm not saying anything negative about anyone here, just relating the overall trend of Hollywood.) So they follow the Chekhov's Gun principle: they don't show a gun if they're not planning to use it. Try thinking of the last time you saw a (recently produced) movie or television show or /any form of media/ where someone simply had guns in the house, they were visible but never used, or used only in a really boring and routine way, such as hunting and bringing home meat. That kind of relationship is not portrayed, not because guns are always featured prominently, but because guns are only featured prominently if the movie or game is about levels of violence. People don't want to normalize gun usage, so they don't present gun usage as normalized - which in turn means that people who don't grow up in gun culture, but want a firearm, tend not to normalize it themselves. They get big, shiny, flashy, glamourous pistols (that are actually often worse or less effective to shoot) and they point them sideways because they see that in the movies, and they behave stupidly, because their only information on the subject is coming from a TV screen.

I think that's also another reason why guns are often perceived as extremely dangerous and unique things - because they are portrayed on television as such. The closest thing to a normalized portrayal of gun possession on television was Robin on How I Met Your Mother, and she, despite being portrayed as a typical redneck gun-owner, is kind of irresponsible for her usage. (She waves it around to get random crunchy granola types out of her apartment, etc.) So people don't see it, and thus have no idea how to model it. No one shows people locking their guns up in safes, or being careful about storage, or worrying about whether their kids will get into it.

which leads to the next question: what's reasonable about having a machine gun?

There are a lot of reasons to have a machine gun (defense of a fortified position being overrun, etc), but somehow, I don't think he was operating under any of those reasonable ones.
posted by corb at 1:25 AM on July 24, 2012 [2 favorites]


How would an ordinary citizen, a civilian, ever be in need of defending "a fortified position being overrun"? where? why would private citizens build fortified positions anyway? how would that be even legal?

Please understand I don't ask this polemically, I have no intention in getting into the political debate on gun control in the USA because I'm not American and I acknowledge the US has its own history that explains the country's relationship to guns and weapons, so it'd be silly for me to ignore that and apply say European standards and history to the debate. But, I do wonder, even within a country with a history and tradition that explains why guns are more widespread and important than say in Germany, and without getting into whether that tradition should be revised for the present and future or not -- would it not be feasible to at least apply some more reasonable limits? Or is the business also for machine guns too big already for that?

I'm saying this as someone who only saw machine guns in real life once and that was when I lived in Ireland and travelled across the border to Northern Ireland back then when there was still a militarised border. British soldiers at the border were all armed with machine guns. So for me machine gun = army. (At least in a legal non-criminal context -- the only other time I saw machine guns, not directly but in the news, was weapons seized by police from organized crime).

I do understand the reasoning/history of the US laws for individual private citizens owning guns for self-defense in ordinary life circumstances (ie. not war). I honestly cannot understand how this can possibly extend to use of weapons normally used by military. Just in case you're out and about doing your shopping, or at work, and get attacked by too many people and a single bullet per shot won't do? but then, why not imagine a situation in ordinary life where you're attacked by even more people, and you need faster and more powerful weapons? how far do the laws take the "self-defense" concept for ordinary citizens? or is it that the laws have no specific limits, and the gun business freely developed to an extent that makes legislation harder and harder after the fact?

I understand it's a very complicated debate. But I do wonder, how do lawmakers justify allowing even internet sales of weaponry of this kind? with no limits on ownership for single individual? What's the practical reasoning, beyond all ideological positions? Is some level of compromise unthinkable?
posted by bitteschoen at 3:01 AM on July 24, 2012


I was (mostly) teasing about using it to defend a fortified position - I don't think things have gotten nearly that bad in this country yet.

I would imagine the practical arguments boil down to two and I'm going to try to take them seriously.

For a lot of pro-gun owners, it's like living in a constant state of attack. Everyone wants to take your guns away - guns that you consider to be integral to your ability to defend yourself. You look at riots on television, and think, "Thank god I'm armed, just in case anyone tried to come for/at me." And so, being used to people always trying to take your (entirely reasonable) guns, you are much more sensitive to machine gun owners who tell you they're worried about their guns being taken away. And you're worried about the slippery slope - that if you publicly admit that machine guns, for example, might be a bit excessive, that once the machine guns are gone, people will go for the rifles with a high rate of fire. This is borne out, because this is the path that it's generally followed in states that have really restrictive and onerous gun control legislation. So often, gun owners see it as a line in the sand, of sorts. "While I hold this line, that I don't even particularly care about, no one is assaulting my own position."

Then there's the simple question of what you do with property that's already in the hands of individuals. America frowns on ex post facto laws, so laws that give people a minimum of time to turn in their property lest it become illegal aren't met with a very welcoming attitude here, generally regardless of which side of the aisle you're on. What do you do when people already own machine guns? Do you ask them to turn it in? If you do, do you compensate them for it? Do you pay a fair market value, if you do? Do you pay for all of the improvements the person has made in the weapon? If you don't, are you taking property of value from them without offering any in return?
posted by corb at 3:30 AM on July 24, 2012




Then there's the simple question of what you do with property that's already in the hands of individuals. America frowns on ex post facto laws, so laws that give people a minimum of time to turn in their property lest it become illegal aren't met with a very welcoming attitude here

But that wouldn't be an ex post facto law at all.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 4:11 AM on July 24, 2012


Background checks for people wanting to buy guns in Colorado jumped more than 41 percent after Friday morning's shooting at an Aurora movie theater, and firearms instructors say they're also seeing increased interest in the training required for a concealed-carry permit.

In other words, Coloradans (and this is probably not unique to Colorado) are collectively stupid enough to believe that they could have stopped James Holmes if they'd had a gun.

The only gun in the theatre able to stop the killing was Holmes' own gun, which jammed.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 4:15 AM on July 24, 2012 [2 favorites]


Mod note: comment deleted. Reminder: wackysarcastic over-the-top "ironic racism" thing not cool here; trying to be offensive for its own sake, not okay. Just say what you want to say.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:22 AM on July 24, 2012


Everyone wants to take your guns away

I vehemently dispute this. The NRA invests riches to build this myth and stoke hysteria that "everyone wants to take your guns away." Look at all the hysteria around Obama, who is a total disappointment and failure to gun control advocates. There was actually a shortage of ammunition before his election because people were so hepped up that he would "take our guns away." (I realize you are just trying to explain the thinking, corb, but I am taking issue with that thinking.)

In reality, there is pretty widespread support for the Second Amendment. Polls don't show that "everyone wants to take your guns away." And if "everyone" did want that, it would have happened. Instead, right after an abomination like the one in Colorado, our candidates cower about even suggesting the mildest of controls in the face of an election.

There is an entire world of difference between wanting some controls and checks and "taking them away."

It's like living in a constant state of attack.

Ya, again, that is total paranoia stoked by right wing nuts and the NRA.

Contrast this with another right that is under attack - family planning, birth control, abortion. Vaginal probes. That's what it is like to have rights under attack.
posted by madamjujujive at 4:34 AM on July 24, 2012 [15 favorites]


But that wouldn't be an ex post facto law at all.

No, it wouldn't, but it would certainly smack of one - after all, how are you planning to disseminate that information to people who already purchased perfectly legal guns?

In other words, Coloradans (and this is probably not unique to Colorado) are collectively stupid enough to believe that they could have stopped James Holmes if they'd had a gun.

You're probably seeing some increase due to that, but you're also probably seeing some increase due to a "gun panic," the same as happened after the Zimmerman shooting. People want to get their guns bought and their concealed carry approved now, in case the laws get changed afterwards.

There is an entire world of difference between wanting some controls and checks and "taking them away."
Contrast this with another right that is under attack - family planning, birth control, abortion. Vaginal probes. That's what it is like to have rights under attack.


I understand that you feel this way, but try actually contrasting these, with the supposition that there's a world of difference. "You can have your family planning, you just need some controls and checks, oh and some options are off the table." "You can have your abortion, but only if you get vaginal probes so we can force you to look at a picture of your baby before you actually go ahead with it."

Both gun rights and women's reproductive rights are under attack in very different locales. Neither are under attack nationwide, because the nation is not so unified to one side or another. But in small locations - like Chicago, where handguns are essentially illegal, or Indiana, where it's hard to get an abortion for love nor money - they are able to go far.
posted by corb at 5:08 AM on July 24, 2012


What do you do when people already own machine guns? Do you ask them to turn it in?

Yup.

Actually, "ask" wouldn't be the correct term. You'd be "told" to turn it in, or else go to jail. Because anyone and I mean anyone who owns a freaking machine gun is crazy. Repeat, nutso. And potentially very, very dangerous. No citizens should own machine guns, period. And any nation that allows citizens to own machine guns is sick, and lost. Adrift in paranoia-addled neverland.

try actually contrasting these, with the supposition that there's a world of difference. "You can have your family planning, you just need some controls and checks, oh and some options are off the table."

Comparing family planning/reproductive rights with the right to own a machine gun is also sick, lost, and adrift in paranoia-addled neverland.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:28 AM on July 24, 2012 [17 favorites]


If you don't, are you taking property of value from them without offering any in return?

Eminent domain! The US is indefinitely at war, after all.
posted by kengraham at 5:54 AM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


I would imagine the practical arguments [for owning machine guns] boil down to two and I'm going to try to take them seriously.

That's your first mistake right there.

Given how helpless people feel after an event like last week's, I'm not really surprised at how weird this discussion became. Confronted by that kind of terror and tragedy, fantasies of revenge and revolution must be comforting for some people, I suppose. But, hooo doggy! Trying to make a case for the need to own machine guns is some 80 proof crazy. I mean, obviously, the next short step is making the case for tactical nukes. And if I were a gun owner—well, I am a gun owner, I have two (more or less) antique guns in a safe at my mom's house—so let's say if I were a gun enthusiast, sportsman, hunter, skeet shooter, whatevs, then I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the machine gun apologists, or the fine red mist rhapsodizers, or the internet revolutionaries, making my case for me. Because seriously guys, at this point you sound like a caricature of a gun nut caricatured by a caricature of an anti-gun bureaucrat.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:10 AM on July 24, 2012 [5 favorites]


Since "ironic racism" is bad, I'm going to take one shot at reframing my statement:

The only reason for a person to own a machine-gun is a paranoia of invasion from within requiring a militia, local gun crime, of the fear that some idiot with a machine-gun will shoot up a cinema filled with unsuspecting people, with the hope you can return fire ASAP.

Yes, you can guess where I sit in the US gun control debate.
posted by Mezentian at 7:40 AM on July 24, 2012


Television and movies and such are generally made by relatively liberal screenwriters, who tend to favor gun control.

Cite?
posted by ericb at 8:35 AM on July 24, 2012


Television and movies and such are generally made by relatively liberal screenwriters, who tend to favor gun control.

Cite?


Here's a paper analyzing donation trends and the political leanings of actors and screenwriters and such. It's actually a fascinating read, though it is limited, and doesn't suggest a linkage between the personal political contributions/affiliations of the actors and screenwriters and the content of the films, though it supposes it may exist. Here's a simpler listing of Hollywood celebrities with the amounts they've donated to political causes, along with how the breakdown on partisan lines is. Donations to the Republican party are staggeringly few and far between. Most of them are not large contributors.
posted by corb at 9:34 AM on July 24, 2012


I had to laugh at the Sun Times this morning...THE FACE OF EVIL. The face of goofiness, perhaps. Can't wait for the mental evaluations. This guy isn't right.
posted by agregoli at 9:35 AM on July 24, 2012




Comparing family planning/reproductive rights with the right to own a machine gun is also sick, lost, and adrift in paranoia-addled neverland.

In fairness to corb, I was the one who introduced the topic of family planning. And I will brook no further comparisons until the gun-owner anal probes start.

Seriously, though, the "coming to take my guns away" is NRA-Limbaugh-Beck-Fox-fueled hyperbole and hysteria with no basis in reality. And based on the ones I know who spout it - an admittedly small sample - they are exactly the ones who probably should have their guns taken away. Call me silly, but I don't like the idea of raging paranoids having guns.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:48 AM on July 24, 2012 [3 favorites]


Seriously, though, the "coming to take my guns away" is NRA-Limbaugh-Beck-Fox-fueled hyperbole and hysteria with no basis in reality.

To use one recent example: guns were confiscated during the Katrina disaster, with police and National Guard going door to door to confiscate all firearms. This is pretty much many gun owner's worst fear - that not only will they not have their firearms, but they won't have them in the event of a severe disaster when they need them to protect themselves. And this fear came true.
"No one will be allowed to be armed. We're going to take all the weapons."
posted by corb at 10:09 AM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


And this fear came true.

Did it? At what point did they need to protect themselves?

I don't see anyone there protecting themselves from anything but an imaginary hypothetical enemy, while simultaneously engaging in a little bit of chest beating. There is actually a guy saying "they were afraid because our weapons were bigger than their weapons." Unless the National Guard was engaging in widespread looting, then if they were protecting themselves from someone, why would they need bigger weapons than the actual protective forces?
posted by zombieflanders at 10:31 AM on July 24, 2012


Wait, but the bizarre right wing urban legend I heard about Katrina was that, when the National Guard went around the Ninth Ward trying to rescue people, they started shooting at them!

How can both bizarre right wing urban legends be true? How can the National Guard have gone around confiscating weapons, but then people had said weapons in order to fire at the National Guard attempting to rescue them?

In all seriousness, I grew up in Louisiana, rode out many a hurricane, and it just seems extremely bizarre to me that the National Guard would waste time going door to door confiscating otherwise legal firearms during hurricane evacuation efforts. Things are already disordered enough, and the local authorities are already busy doing useful stuff like laying down sandbags and organizing contraflow.

The abstract corb links doesn't explicitly mention door-to-door confiscations or prove anything conclusively, just that the NRA sued the City of New Orleans over said supposed confiscations. It's also from a biased source -- George Mason U's law review is notoriously conservative.
posted by Sara C. at 11:00 AM on July 24, 2012


Television and movies and such are generally made by relatively liberal screenwriters, who tend to favor gun control.

Cite?


Cite me. Corb is correct. It's not just a cliche: Hollywood writing rooms are filled with liberals. Most of my friends are television writers. I'm sitting in a Hollywood writer's office on the Warner Bros lot, and I don't have any idea how far I'd have to walk to find a Republican. There are some libertarians, but very, very few Republican Hollywood writers.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:05 AM on July 24, 2012


So there was a local incident of some guns seized during the nation's largest natural disaster under a Bush presidency ...

Ya, I can see where that would fuel the Obamas-gonna-come-for-your-guns hysteria. He gets blamed for every other mess Bush got us into, why not that one too?
posted by madamjujujive at 11:10 AM on July 24, 2012 [10 favorites]


"No one will be allowed to be armed. We're going to take all the weapons."

I'm trying to imagine how a disaster area packed with desperate people armed to the teeth is a better thing than a disaster just packed with desperate people.

Call it a failure of imagination if you must. And I do acknowledge that this is precisely where my path diverges from someone who favors more or less complete freedom of weaponry. I don't see the positive in having MORE people armed when the shit hits.
posted by philip-random at 11:19 AM on July 24, 2012 [5 favorites]


It's also unclear from the abstract exactly what the gun confiscation scenario was.

Was it the Guard doing periodic drive-bys (as they do in the aftermath of a disaster), and if they saw a drunk guy on his porch with a shotgun, or some other sketchy/unsafe situation, they confiscated it? Was it related maybe to the fact that, with widespread disorder, it was hard to prove who belonged where, what property belonged to who, and who had what kind of paperwork in order?

To what extent was it all hunky dory until it was a white guy who got his gun taken away? Who initiated this policy, and to what end?

Keep in mind, too, that this is all when Orleans Parish was under a mandatory evacuation, which means that in a lot of cases the Guard was doing door-to-door checks to force people to leave the premises. Which rather complicates matters. Like it or not, people's civil rights are curtailed during a disaster like Katrina.
posted by Sara C. at 11:21 AM on July 24, 2012


Sara C.: "Keep in mind, too, that this is all when Orleans Parish was under a mandatory evacuation, which means that in a lot of cases the Guard was doing door-to-door checks to force people to leave the premises. "

Yeah, this. It takes a remarkable amount of mental gymnastics to conclude that the real problem with Katrina was not that FEMA was so preoccupied with terrorism that they were caught with their pants down by a real-life emergency, or that a bunch of people decided to ignore the evacuation orders and remain holed up in their homes with firearms, but that a few of the people who ignored the evacuation orders had those firearms taken away.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:37 AM on July 24, 2012


For those who may be non-US or too young or otherwise unfamiliar with the Katrina violence:

Reports of carjackings, reports of looting, reports of rape, reports of assaults in the post-Katrina chaos were widespread. I'm trying not to go overboard here; I think most people will acknowledge that post-Katrina New Orleans was an extremely lawless situation, though we may differ on what the prescription is.

I in no way think that people who bought up guns because they thought Obama would ban them in his first term were right, but I'm saying that things like that are what contribute to a culture of fear, and that sometimes proponents of gun control do more harm than good by suggesting "Nobody's coming for your guns" when opponents of it have evidence that sometimes, people are. There's probably a nuanced position someone could make, which would get a much more reasonable hearing.

It's also unclear from the abstract exactly what the gun confiscation scenario was.

Was it the Guard doing periodic drive-bys (as they do in the aftermath of a disaster), and if they saw a drunk guy on his porch with a shotgun, or some other sketchy/unsafe situation, they confiscated it? Was it related maybe to the fact that, with widespread disorder, it was hard to prove who belonged where, what property belonged to who, and who had what kind of paperwork in order?

To what extent was it all hunky dory until it was a white guy who got his gun taken away? Who initiated this policy, and to what end?


It appears to have been during the door-to-door sweeps that weapons were removed, by the National Guard acting on the orders of the police chief and mayor - though again, opinions from higher are hard to say. The city of New Orleans settled the lawsuit and made provisions for New Orleans residents to reclaim their weapons, so even if you think that the NRA is biased, there's evidence that there was at least a decent case there. There's also a New York Times article on the subject, which states,
Mr. Compass, the police superintendent, said that after a week of near anarchy in the city, no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms of any kind. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.
Again, I understand why some people would feel that the police should be people's best hope in case of emergency, but I'm also trying to express why some people might not feel that a thinly spread police force was enough protection. Even those who agreed to evacuate were disarmed before sent on to an evacuation center, where, as I've referenced above, a lot of really awful things were happening.

Now, I personally do not believe that this was anything more than door-to-door confiscation, but I know many in the gun community believe that the police utilized weapon registries to know where to go to confiscate the weapons - which is another reason some people (again, I have different reasons, mainly around the public release of the records) oppose gun registries.
posted by corb at 11:50 AM on July 24, 2012


sometimes proponents of gun control do more harm than good by suggesting "Nobody's coming for your guns" when opponents of it have evidence that sometimes, people are. There's probably a nuanced position someone could make

How about "nobody's coming for your guns unless you're living through a once-in-a-century catastrophe, your city is in chaos, people are dying, and the National Guard are the only ones keeping order; then you may be disarmed."

Is that a more nuanced position?
posted by octobersurprise at 12:12 PM on July 24, 2012 [2 favorites]


corb: "there's evidence that there was at least a decent case there"

Flag on the play. Judging the merits of a case that never goes to trial by the terms of the settlement is a grave logical fallacy that ignores the impact of asymmetrical lawyer stockpiles.

The City of New Orleans' entire operating budget during the time of the settlement was in the neighborhood of $500 million, most of which gets spent on essential services and not fending off opportunistic lawsuits. The NRA, on the other hand, takes in hundreds of millions a year, and would gladly devote many, many of those millions to a case like this even if they knew from the start they would lose it, if only to rile up the base. It might even be a net money maker in the form of free advertising in the media.

Having just been smacked by a natural disaster, New Orleans was in no position to fight Godzilla the NRA lobbying machine over a bunch of stuff that happened in the "fog of war" atmosphere of Katrina's aftermath.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:13 PM on July 24, 2012


I answer my own question by reminding myself that, silly, such a situation is exactly when freely available machine guns are needed most!
posted by octobersurprise at 12:16 PM on July 24, 2012


Reports of carjackings, reports of looting, reports of rape, reports of assaults in the post-Katrina chaos were widespread. I'm trying not to go overboard here; I think most people will acknowledge that post-Katrina New Orleans was an extremely lawless situation, though we may differ on what the prescription is.

Actually, a lot of the violence, in particular the stories from the Superdome was later found to be exaggerated. Also, the timeframe of the piece seems to be set at a point in time when, according to the NYT article you link to later, the looting and other lawlessness was essentially over. And this still doesn't address the explicit reason given by the interviewee was that the Guard was worried that they had "bigger" guns. Why, exactly would they need bigger guns than an actual military organization?

I in no way think that people who bought up guns because they thought Obama would ban them in his first term were right, but I'm saying that things like that are what contribute to a culture of fear, and that sometimes proponents of gun control do more harm than good by suggesting "Nobody's coming for your guns" when opponents of it have evidence that sometimes, people are. There's probably a nuanced position someone could make, which would get a much more reasonable hearing.

And as has been amply demonstrated here and elsewhere, the culture of fear is almost entirely generated by the anti-gun control lobby regardless of evidence. One nuanced argument would be that there is very little chance that this would happen absent an organization that had vastly better experience and ability to control the situation than most gun owners, but no member of the NRA or other gun-related lobby is even attempting this nuance. If anything, they stoke it further by claiming that those same organizations will take their guns for no reason whatsoever, with subtle (and occasionally not-so-subtle) intimations that it's certain government officials that will do it.

The city of New Orleans settled the lawsuit and made provisions for New Orleans residents to reclaim their weapons, so even if you think that the NRA is biased, there's evidence that there was at least a decent case there.

The very first sentence of that article starts out "Under pressure from the National Rifle Association," which strikes me less as supporting a decent case and more as overwhelming political pressure from a lobby.

Again, I understand why some people would feel that the police should be people's best hope in case of emergency, but I'm also trying to express why some people might not feel that a thinly spread police force was enough protection.

And again, this was at a point when the police force had already been bolstered by a large National Guard presence, and by the accounts of your NYT link was already calm. BTW, where did they get the idea that anything but bigger guns than the military was insufficient?

Even those who agreed to evacuate were disarmed before sent on to an evacuation center, where, as I've referenced above, a lot of really awful things were happening.

As mentioned before, a lot of those were unsubstantiated rumors that were later proven to be false.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:18 PM on July 24, 2012 [3 favorites]


Oh, goody, Kateina anecdotes. More dog whistles for racism.
posted by OmieWise at 12:24 PM on July 24, 2012 [6 favorites]


a lot of those were unsubstantiated rumors that were later proven to be false.

oh, so we're getting technical now, are we?
posted by philip-random at 12:24 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


How about "nobody's coming for your guns unless you're living through a once-in-a-century catastrophe, your city is in chaos, people are dying, and the National Guard are the only ones keeping order; then you may be disarmed."

Is that a more nuanced position?


Certainly, and I can even understand where to you that would make sense and be a rational solution. But for many people who keep guns for home defense, such a catastophe, with a city in chaos, it is exactly the emergency situation they may have purchased the guns for. To then have them taken from them seems like an immense injustice. It's a little bit like telling someone who purchases a fire extinguisher that they can use it as much as they want, but not for fires. Again, I understand where you may not feel this way, but this is how it sounds.

Flag on the play. Judging the merits of a case that never goes to trial by the terms of the settlement is a grave logical fallacy that ignores the impact of asymmetrical lawyer stockpiles.

Legitimate, but I think the fact that the city still is in possession of those guns, and has them available to now return, is at least some sort of proof that at least hundreds of guns were confiscated.

As mentioned before, a lot of those were unsubstantiated rumors that were later proven to be false.

The NPR story I referenced is a lot of women coming forward to talk about their own rapes to an organization that specifically deals with sexual violence. I suppose you could call that unsubstantiated, like many rape accusations are even when they're not taking place effectively in the middle of a warzone. But that's a different thing than "false."

I chose the NPR story specifically to show this was not a partisan issue. This is an independently verified issue.
posted by corb at 12:49 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


Speaking of New Orleans police, I just noticed this: Holder to announce New Orleans police reforms

Background: Danziger Bridge shootings
posted by homunculus at 12:54 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


for many people who keep guns for home defense, such a catastrophe, with a city in chaos, it is exactly the emergency situation they may have purchased the guns for.

I don't think you, or the people you're speaking for, are real clear on the meaning of the phrase "martial law."
posted by octobersurprise at 12:55 PM on July 24, 2012 [3 favorites]


no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms of any kind.

That sounds to me like the Guard were confiscating the pistols of people who were carrying them, not going door to door demanding people's firearms. And, again, the extent to which the Guard was going door to door, it was likely not strictly for the purposes of confiscating firearms. Lawsuit or no, there is absolutely no reason to believe that this Katrina thing was the much talked about Government Comes For Your Weapons scenario.

Especially since, remember, this was all happening in a jurisdiction under mandatory evacuation, and under martial law conditions. There were curfews and checkpoints and all kinds of other conditions that would normally be seen a civil rights violations.
posted by Sara C. at 1:00 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


corb: " Legitimate, but I think the fact that the city still is in possession of those guns, and has them available to now return, is at least some sort of proof that at least hundreds of guns were confiscated. "

The city's story is that they were taken from empty homes. In reality, I don't doubt that some guns were taken from people who had violated direct orders from federal and state officials to leave, but it's telling that this is the best example that gun-counters can muster for the slippery slope to tyranny that would result from any effort at restricting or monitoring gun/ammunition sales.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:08 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


But for many people who keep guns for home defense, such a catastophe, with a city in chaos, it is exactly the emergency situation they may have purchased the guns for. To then have them taken from them seems like an immense injustice. It's a little bit like telling someone who purchases a fire extinguisher that they can use it as much as they want, but not for fires.

No, it's like telling someone who purchases a fire extinguisher that they can use it, but not when the fire department's already in the building actively putting out the fire with specialized firefighting equipment, and there's a good chance they could spray someone (including the firefighters) in the face either accidentally or because they're paranoid that the firefighters are here to steal their extinguisher for no reason whatsoever. Which, by the way, they were told is going to happen by the extinguisher manufacturer.

The NPR story I referenced is a lot of women coming forward to talk about their own rapes to an organization that specifically deals with sexual violence. I suppose you could call that unsubstantiated, like many rape accusations are even when they're not taking place effectively in the middle of a warzone. But that's a different thing than "false."

If it's unclear, I don't think that first-hand reports of rapes from victims would have been classified under that. I was referring to the second- or third-hand accounts of murders, dead bodies, etc. Those were in fact proven to be false.

I chose the NPR story specifically to show this was not a partisan issue. This is an independently verified issue.

On that one issue it was non-partisan. The others were (and often still are) circulated by right-leaning news and opinion sources.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:10 PM on July 24, 2012 [4 favorites]


This is so sad, my thoughts and prayers are with all the victims families.
He's now playing insanity, but was smart enough to get hold of a guy, and block everyone from using the exit door when he open fire. Hope he gets the death penalty.
posted by DonnaH at 1:22 PM on July 24, 2012


Smarts and mental illness have little to do with each other. I'm getting tired of the conflation between how well this was planned and his supposed sanity.
posted by agregoli at 1:36 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]




Health care crisis meet unemployment crisis meet gun culture, and let's all welcome young Hugo to the American way of life. NPR called the news of his arrival a ray of sunshine.
posted by Anitanola at 1:59 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


Hope he gets the death penalty.

Why do you hope this?
posted by kengraham at 2:30 PM on July 24, 2012


On a more related note: Christian Bale in town visiting victims of shooting
Voloch said Bale notified that he wanted to visit the injured, but asked that media not be notified. "He just wanted to meet with victims and police."

Among the people Bale visited with was Carey Rottman, of Denver. Friends quickly tweeted out a photo of their visit.

Officials from Warner Brothers Pictures, which released Bale's most recent film, said Bale came to Aurora on his own.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:43 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]




BTW, the top comment at Reddit for the Christian Bale story is pure gold:
I'd like to imagine that upon arriving at the hospital, he walked up to the receptionist and loudly grumbled "WHERE ARE THEY?!!!!"
posted by zombieflanders at 3:57 PM on July 24, 2012 [3 favorites]


Uninsured Aurora Victim Could Face $2 Million In Medical Bills

Jesus Christ, America.
posted by Catch at 3:58 PM on July 24, 2012


Grain of salt alert because ABC news has seriously screwed up some reporting recently:

Accused movie theater gunman James Holmes is spitting at jail officers so frequently that he is made to wear a face guard whenever he is moved from his cell, sources told ABC News...

Holmes told police he was the fictitious Batman villain The Joker, and when cops put evidence bags over his hands to preserve traces of gunpowder residue, he pretended the bags were puppets, law enforcement sources told ABC News.

posted by futz at 4:16 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


Nice catch, Flunkie. I have half a mind to start a '2nd Amendment Hero-of-the-Week website. It could feature one of several exciting, bold, and heroic real-life characters every week.
posted by j_curiouser at 4:20 PM on July 24, 2012 [3 favorites]


Canady, who has a concealed-weapons permit, was reportedly reaching for his wallet in the checkout line but grabbed the pistol he was carrying instead. The gun went off, wounding Canady in the buttocks. The bullet then hit the floor and sent fragments into the other two victims.

The best part is that anti-gun control wing nuts will ignore this just like they ignore it whenever their favorite thesis is disproved. But isn't that just a shot in the ass.
posted by OmieWise at 5:23 PM on July 24, 2012 [2 favorites]


OmieWise : The bullet then hit the floor and sent fragments into the other two victims. The best part is that anti-gun control wing nuts will ignore this just like they ignore it

Ignore it? Ohhhh, no! No such thing!

First - I will stand beside you to rip this guy a new one for not actually knowing how to use his gun. A CCW comes with responsibility, not just a fancy card with your picture on it. In my state, you need to take at least a full-day training course and pass a basic competency test to get a CCW permit. I thought my state had one of the weaker requirements in the nation, but evidently not.

Second - TWO secondary-hit victims? Bullets don't generally scatter debris any significant distance (though yes, they can, no need to go hunting for stats on how far linoleum can travel when hit by an AR-15), nor do they bounce around like a blaster-shot in the trash compactor scene in Star Wars: A New Hope. I find that almost beyond belief - Consider that a negative version of winning Powerball twice in a row.
posted by pla at 7:06 PM on July 24, 2012


j_curiouser: "Nice catch, Flunkie. I have half a mind to start a '2nd Amendment Hero-of-the-Week website. It could feature one of several exciting, bold, and heroic real-life characters every week."

How is that not already a thing?!? Let's make that happen.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:12 PM on July 24, 2012




N.R.A. Proposes Sweeping Ban on Movies

Wow, The New Yorker does The Onion.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:11 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


The Wall Street Journal's James Taranto: ‏ I hope the girls whose boyfriends died to save them were worthy of the sacrifice.

Words fail.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:16 PM on July 24, 2012 [1 favorite]


James Taranto has been displaying his deep-seated issues with women for a long time.

Suddenly a gunman threw canisters only a few feet from where the pair sat. [Allie] Young, 19, instinctively stood to act or warn others. A shot ripped into her neck. She collapsed, blood spurting from the wound, Obama said.

Instead of running or hiding, [Stephanie] Davies, 21, pulled Young into the aisle and put pressure on the wound with one hand and dialed 911 with the other, Obama said.


So, Taranto, I can't wait for when you tweet to Allie telling her you hope the other people in the movie theater were worth trying to warn and getting shot in the neck for. Or wait, is it only women's lives that are of questionable worth to try to save?

I can't wait until you Tweet to Stephanie Davies and tell her you hope Allie was worth risking your life by staying in the theater with the rampaging gunman in order to try to keep the blood from gushing out of her neck wound. Let's see that one.
posted by cairdeas at 10:59 PM on July 24, 2012 [3 favorites]


The Wall Street Journal's James Taranto: ‏ I hope the girls whose boyfriends died to save them were worthy of the sacrifice.

Oooh, nice. I see that and raise you this - not quite as classy but still:

Exclusive: JAMES HOLMES REJECTED By 3 Women Before Shooting

and the Daily Mail referring and expanding on that:

'He was just looking to chat... nothing sexual': How Batman killer was rejected by three women on dating website days before massacre: ... at least three of the women he contacted through AdultFriendFinder rejected his advances - even though he was apparently just hoping to 'chat' with 'nothing sexual' on the cards.


- via Jezebel where they actually bother responding to the 'implications' of these headlines.

Just another example of how the frantic search for "why" brings out the most unreflexive assumptions about human behaviour.
posted by bitteschoen at 12:30 AM on July 25, 2012


Kevin: "I mean it's got so bad that half the people on TV, inside the TV, they're watching TV. And what are all these people watching? People like me."

In accordance with my first comment, the sweet baboo candy kisses for Holmes are already being postmarked.

Holmes didn't need to be crazy to kill. Plenty of men will kill for a wallet with 5 dollars in it. Instrumental violence doesn't require some unfathomable diseased mindstate, just the right incentive. The incentive for the 21st century crowdkill, obviously, is the celebrity.

I'm still surprised this doesn't happen every other week. Maybe we're at, or pushing towards some sort of equilibria, where ego-massacres and their intermissions are neatly ordered along the rhythm of the newscycle. Too soon or too similar and you're merely a copy-cat footnote to that other guy.
posted by dgaicun at 1:49 AM on July 25, 2012


tonycpsu: "The Wall Street Journal's James Taranto: ‏ I hope the girls whose boyfriends died to save them were worthy of the sacrifice."

I clicked on that assuming it was going to be a somewhat inflammatory and simplistic summary of a longer, more nuanced column, or something, but nope. That's literally what he said. Wow. You are exactly right, tonycpsu, words fail.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:28 AM on July 25, 2012


So in the end, I really have only a couple of things to say. First, my sympathies to the families of the dead and wounded. Nobody should have to go through something like this, ever. Second, there's really not too much reason other than voyeurism for the rest of us to be paying attention to this story, and particularly to its "analysis." Because third, there will always be crazy people, and there always have been, and if they don't have guns they use knives or hatchets and sometimes they use fire, which can kill just as many people just as horribly. Or they spray gas in the Tokyo subway. Their actions are horrific. But they don't mean anything.
Ed Ward'
s input on Aurora
posted by Isadorady at 7:18 AM on July 25, 2012


Men's Rights Advocates: The men who lost their lives protecting their girlfriends in the Aurora theater shooting were suckers.

Sounds like James Taranto would fit right in with these guys. Also, I am vomiting forever.
posted by palomar at 8:01 AM on July 25, 2012 [4 favorites]


tonycpsu,

Run with it...I couldn't do it on a regular basis...it would just be too bruising for my psyche.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:16 AM on July 25, 2012


What we need to do is get some funding to run a series of simulations where we recruit individuals with concealed carry permits, test their weapons proficiency, and then determine casualty outcomes. Trained bystanders would play the roles of panicked, frozen and cowering individuals creating a common crowd model. We would simulate using different crowd sizes and behaviors. We would test different combinations of firearms proficiency.

Reviewing the proposed outcomes in this thread and others, I see that most of the conclusions are drawn either from supposition or anecdote. It seems to me that we should look to create a empirical basis for these conclusions by direct simulation.
posted by humanfont at 8:30 AM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]




I saw We Need To Talk About Kevin this weekend. (I somehow got the impression it was about a woman coming to terms with her young son's autism -- I was in for a surprise.) I recommend it, to anyone curious about ericb's most recent link. I think it also does a good job showing the pain and difficulty parents (especially mothers) face, when they recognize something is wrong with their child but don't know what to do.
posted by meese at 10:23 AM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]


Blaming the mother is so three mass shootings ago. Blaming demonic possession is where it's at.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:49 AM on July 25, 2012


I saw We Need To Talk About Kevin this weekend. (I somehow got the impression it was about a woman coming to terms with her young son's autism -- I was in for a surprise.) I recommend it

I hate to be that person but honestly the book is so much better. The book has complexities and nuances that the movie doesn't handle.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:32 AM on July 25, 2012 [2 favorites]


Movie massacre suspect sent chilling notebook to psychiatrist before attack

Police and FBI agents were called to the University of Colorado Anschutz medical campus in Aurora on Monday morning after the psychiatrist, who is also a professor at the school, reported receiving a package believed to be from the suspect. Although that package turned out to be from someone else and harmless, a search of the Campus Services' mailroom turned up another package sent to the psychiatrist with Holmes’ name in the return address.
posted by mattbucher at 12:03 PM on July 25, 2012


humanfont--Some years ago a TV program (20/20, Prime Time,etc ) did a simulation where an intruder broke into a courtroom with a weapon (automatic/semiautomatic ?)--in one scenario the jurors were highly trained in firearms--in the other they were lay people with weapon--their weapons were concealed and they were to "eliminate the intruder"--obviously these were not real weapons ( laser ???) regardless--what it demonstrated is that an armed intruder will kill the jurors before he/she is killed. I looked for a link and could not find it. Since I only vaguely remember the program no need for posters to say what was wrong with the simulation--all I know is that it was very convincing that trained persons carrying concealed weapons were very ineffective in eliminating an intruder who surprised them.
posted by rmhsinc at 12:07 PM on July 25, 2012


Uninsured Aurora Victim Could Face $2 Million In Medical Bills

Update: Woman who escaped ‘Dark Knight’ theater shooting gives birth as husband clings to life
posted by homunculus at 12:39 PM on July 25, 2012


Blaming demonic possession is where it's at.

Longenecker? Dwight Longenecker? I call shenanigans.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:40 PM on July 25, 2012




Guns-R-US
posted by de at 1:15 PM on July 25, 2012


I hate to be that person but honestly the book is so much better. The book has complexities and nuances that the movie doesn't handle.

I hadn't even known there was a book, so I appreciate you being that person!
posted by meese at 1:20 PM on July 25, 2012


The Wall Street Journal's James Taranto: ‏ I hope the girls whose boyfriends died to save them were worthy of the sacrifice.

Taranto opens today's column with a longer explanation of his "errant tweet."
These three women owe their lives to their men. That debt can never be repaid in kind, because life is for the living and cannot be returned to the dead. The closest they can come to redeeming it is to use the gift of their survival well--to live good, full, happy lives.

People live on after death in the memories of those who loved them. Sometimes when this columnist does something we consider worthwhile, our thoughts turn to our father, who died four years ago: "Dad would be proud." That is our hope for Young, Yowler and Lindgren: that in the years to come, each of them will have many opportunities to reflect that Jon or Matt or Alex would be proud of her.
I'm not sure I buy that this is what he was originally going for, but taking his explanation at face value, it's a nice sentiment.
posted by BobbyVan at 1:35 PM on July 25, 2012


I'm not sure I buy that this is what he was originally going for

Given that he tweeted "I hope the girls whose boyfriends died to save them were worthy of the sacrifice" instead of even something like "May these women live the full and happy lives their boyfriends would've wanted for them," I'm gonna say Taranto is just as full of shit today as he was yesterday.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:56 PM on July 25, 2012 [15 favorites]


That is the most self-serving so-called "mea culpa" I've seen in a while. If you can suspend your disbelief enough to take Taranto at his word, more power to you.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:01 PM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]


Romney weighs in, falls flat on face.
Well this person shouldn't have had any kind of weapons and bombs and other devices and it was illegal for him to have many of those things already.
I can haz the gun control laws in Mitt's fantasy world?
posted by tonycpsu at 3:06 PM on July 25, 2012 [5 favorites]


Oh, dear... the remainder of his quote:
"And so we can sometimes hope that just changing the law will make all bad things go away. It won't. Changing the heart of the American people may well be what's essential, to improve the lots of the American people."
posted by ericb at 3:12 PM on July 25, 2012


I, for one, can't wait for the unveiling of Mitt Romney's heart-based foreign policy.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:19 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]


Hey Mitt: When Bill O'Reilly disagrees with your position, there may be a problem.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:37 PM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]


Blaming demonic possession is where it's at.

I was reading somewhere that Holmes dropped out of grad school sometime around June 10 after failing part of his first year finals, so I was thinking in terms of chronic methamphetamine psychosis from using drugs to study, culminating in a complete psychotic break resulting from the big finals push.

When I Googled 'holmes meth', though, I found a link with pages of bizarre incoherence about some experimental drug called epicatechina which was being investigated by the Salk Institute in San Diego (where Holmes was a research intern), in collaboration with DARPA, and which was supposed to allow soldiers to overcome fatigue.
posted by jamjam at 3:46 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]


Mod note: pla, please make more of an effort to appear as if you are not trolling. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:18 PM on July 25, 2012


restless_nomad : pla, please make more of an effort to appear as if you are not trolling. Thanks

I responded in kind. We actually have people complaining about a talking head calling people out for blatant chauvanism, which in turn expresses their own brand of chauvanism.

I don't like it any more than you do, and while my tone could perhaps use work, hey, sexist is as sexist does.
posted by pla at 4:23 PM on July 25, 2012


jamjam, if you're talking about the use of "study drugs", i.e. Adderall, that's not methamphetamine. That's just amphetamine.

(Also, it would be super cool if in general people would stop calling those "study drugs". Not everyone who uses Adderall is using it to get high enough to study all night. Some of us are actually legally prescribed those drugs because they make our brains function more like the average person's. And since there's zero evidence that Holmes was abusing Adderall, maybe people could stop throwing that one around like it's truth?)
posted by palomar at 4:23 PM on July 25, 2012 [2 favorites]


...I was thinking in terms of chronic methamphetamine psychosis from using drugs to study, culminating in a complete psychotic break resulting from the big finals push.

When I Googled 'holmes meth', though, I found a link with pages of bizarre incoherence about some experimental drug called epicatechina which was being investigated by the Salk Institute...


I get the instinct to try and make sense of tragedy, but it'd be nice if folks didn't just make stuff up, or start posting conspiracy theories. Maybe we could wait for some actual evidence?
posted by zamboni at 4:31 PM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]


Whew, Taranto. What an arrogant ass.

So much blame (at parents/guns/etc) and hardly any knowledge yet.
posted by agregoli at 6:14 PM on July 25, 2012


Excellent: Hospitals waive fees, co-pay for Colorado shooting victims.

Sadly, no help for Caleb Medley, but it's great that a majority of the hospitals are taking this step.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:01 PM on July 25, 2012


Caleb Medley's friends have set up a donation web site to defray his medical costs.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:00 AM on July 26, 2012


The NRA’s war on gun science

As the tragic shooting in Colorado last week has reignited the debate over guns, one key public policy question — does gun control save lives? — is almost impossible to answer thanks to a dearth of research on the subject. That lack of research is no accident. It’s the product of a concerted campaign by the gun lobby and its allies on Capitol Hill to stymie and even explicitly outlaw scientific research into gun violence in what critics charge is an attempt to deceive the public about the dangers of guns.
posted by caryatid at 8:40 AM on July 26, 2012


Interestingly for some who are having negative thoughts about Romney for his position on gun control, one reason may be that he hopes to not lose the support of a heavily pro-gun base. Romney is actually known for endorsing far more gun control than your average Republican.
When he was the governor of Massachusetts, Romney signed a ban on assault weapons, like the one used in the movie theatre in Aurora. “Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts,” he said at the time. “These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people.” Romney also signed a law that raised the state’s gun-licensing fee to a hundred dollars, from twenty-five.
I mean, I'm vehemently opposed to his gun control measures, but I just want to say that assuming he's keeping quiet because he is too may not be accurate.
posted by corb at 8:50 AM on July 26, 2012


Romney adapts to his assumed constituency. In Massachusetts he reflected the wishes of the constituents there. If he is elected president, his supporters would probably skew heavily towards those who are against gun control (since that is the case among conservatives nationally) and his policies would reflect that. He's not a stealth liberal.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:34 AM on July 26, 2012


Just came across an interesting side-note on the effectiveness of hypothetical gun-control laws...

"While this pistol obviously wasn’t created from scratch using a 3D printer, the interesting thing is that the lower receiver — in a legal sense at least — is what actually constitutes a firearm."

/ Looks forward to waiting periods and background checks to buy what amounts to a fancy printer
posted by pla at 10:37 AM on July 26, 2012


Romney, on air last night:
"Political implications, legal implications are something which will be sorted out down the road," Romney told NBC's Brian Williams during an exclusive interview here in London. "But I don't happen to believe that America needs new gun laws. A lot of what this young man did was clearly against the law. But the fact that it was against the law did not prevent it from happening."
Romney's official campaign stance on the "gun rights" issue:
Like the majority of Americans, Mitt does not believe that the United States needs additional laws that restrict the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms..... Mitt will enforce the laws already on the books and punish, to the fullest extent of the law, criminals who misuse firearms to commit crimes. But he does not support adding more laws and regulations that do nothing more than burden law-abiding citizens while being ignored by criminals.... As governor of Massachusetts, Mitt was proud to support legislation that expanded the rights of gun owners. He worked hard to advance the ability of law-abiding citizens to purchase and own firearms, while opposing liberal desires to create bureaucracy intended to burden gun owners and sportsmen.... As president, Mitt will work to expand and enhance access and opportunities for Americans to hunt, shoot, and protect their families, homes and property, and he will fight the battle on all fronts to protect and promote the Second Amendment.
posted by argonauta at 11:07 AM on July 26, 2012


Romney is actually known for endorsing far more gun control

Romney is known for endorsing a lot of things at some point in his life. Compare Romney's late belief that "deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts" and his success at raising the MA gun-licensing fee to his present assertion that he "worked hard to advance the ability of law-abiding citizens to purchase and own firearms, while opposing liberal desires to create bureaucracy intended to burden gun owners and sportsmen."

There's no way to accurately predict Mitt Romney's position on anything because the most plausible hypothesis is that he believes in nothing. (He just wants ze money!)
posted by octobersurprise at 11:32 AM on July 26, 2012 [1 favorite]


There's no way to accurately predict Mitt Romney's position on anything because the most plausible hypothesis is that he believes in nothing.

Yeah, this is an absolutely legitimate point. He's like political Silly Putty.
posted by corb at 11:53 AM on July 26, 2012 [1 favorite]


Romney is actually known for endorsing x_$

It all depends on who is coding for the day exactly what Romney is going to endorse/condem.
posted by edgeways at 1:28 PM on July 26, 2012


Excellent: Hospitals waive fees, co-pay for Colorado shooting victims.

I heard on NPR that as of today various websites have raised $2 million to help defray victims' hospital/healthcare costs.

I hope there is support for survivors, as well. I watched a devastating interview with a young teen girl who was in the theater. Just heartbreaking. She's scared for life and will obviously benefit from mental health counseling -- probably throughout her entire life. Just so sad.
posted by ericb at 1:37 PM on July 26, 2012


Mitt Romney's Flip-Flops.
posted by ericb at 1:39 PM on July 26, 2012


Romney’s Flip-Flops on Gun Control Over the Years -- "As he has on so many other issues, Mitt Romney has executed a major flip-flop on gun rights—and told some mistruths along the way. Jesse Singal takes us through Romney’s gun past."
posted by ericb at 1:41 PM on July 26, 2012


The Atlantic: A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths
posted by flapjax at midnite at 1:27 AM on July 27, 2012






I don't think you can compare Japan with the US; Japan also has their yakuza help with disaster relief and their homeless clean up parks. The society and culture are entirely different; it has little to do with the lack of guns.

In addition, that article pays brief notice to the purpose of that law by noting that
The history of that is complicated, but it's worth noting that U.S. gun law has its roots in resistance to British gun restrictions, whereas some academic literature links the Japanese law to the national campaign to forcibly disarm the samurai which may partially explain why the 1958 mentions firearms and swords side-by-side
but not noting other than the brief "complicated" that this was during a period when the US was still positioned in Japan and essentially forcing changes that they wanted there, which is why Japan also has severe restriction of armies. This was a punitory post-war measure, rather than a measure created to stop violence. Because they didn't have the violence previous to it.
posted by corb at 5:22 AM on July 27, 2012


I don't think you can compare Japan with the US

Of course you can. People compare differing countries all the time. The fact that they're different makes them interesting fodder for comparison, and gives us perspective that we wouldn't have if we didn't engage in comparisons.

it has little to do with the lack of guns.

"Little" to do, eh? Hmm. Thanks for enlightening us on that point. Not entirely sure I agree with you, but I'll concede that you *might* know more about Japan and Japanese history (or just general human nature) than I do.

At any rate, the US would do well to start comparing itself to the rest of the world a little more often. Might learn something. Or, hey, maybe most Americans are just fine* with events like Aurora cropping up every so often. The price you pay for the freedom to own military-grade automatic weapons, and all that.

*the NRA seem to be, for example
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:37 AM on July 27, 2012 [6 favorites]


At any rate, the US would do well to start comparing itself to the rest of the world a little more often. Might learn something. Or, hey, maybe most Americans are just fine* with events like Aurora cropping up every so often. The price you pay for the freedom to own military-grade automatic weapons, and all that.

*the NRA seem to be, for example


I've learned recently, upon witnessing one Mefite call another a terrorist supporter, that it's pretty easy to assume the worse out of folks if you don't listen to their entire argument. The gun control side thinks the NRA is fine with the massacres, or why would they reject gun control which is the best way to stop them? The NRA side thinks the gun control side is allowing the massacres to happen, or else why would they oppose the best way to stop them, which is of course having armed civilians around to stop the attack?

It's better to really find the mutually agreed upon solutions, the NRA agrees with some gun control and the gun control folks agree with arming some civilians. We need to get to the point where we can just pass the agreed upon controls in the most effective ways, rather than demonizing each other.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:49 AM on July 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


There's also a strong respect-for-life and consideration culture in large parts of Asia: things I found strange yet amazing were: a five year old holding up his hand to stop traffic and then blithely walking across a road, people politely yielding to them; the expectation that leaving anyone alone in the house was sufficient to stop a burglary because the robber would leave rather than cause harm to that person - only if the house was empty would it be in danger of being robbed.

I think it'd be interesting to compare not guns/lack of guns, but the cultures themselves. Why is our culture so...for lack of a better word, antagonistic? Japanese also compete fiercely, they are also capitalistic, they are also strongly patriarchal, they have a GINI of 37.6% (just slightly off from India at 36.8) to give the top reasons usually cited as responsible for our own cultural issues. But somehow they are still radically different on this score.

It's better to really find the mutually agreed upon solutions, the NRA agrees with some gun control and the gun control folks agree with arming some civilians. We need to get to the point where we can just pass the agreed upon controls in the most effective ways, rather than demonizing each other.

I agree. I honestly think part of the problem is that both sides are holding out extreme policy so that they can get concessions from the other in exchange for supporting reasonable policy.

The article you link says that there is hypocrisy between the NRA's official stance and its members stance because the NRA supports carry reciprocity. I think that's a bit disingenuous, because it's highly probable that if the NRA were offered a deal where everyone in the country who could pass a criminal background check, hadn't been committed for violent mental illness, and had completed some form of gun training were able to carry their weapon of choice anywhere in the country, they would jump on it in a heartbeat.

Another thing non-gun owners may not know is that many of the bans on guns are actually bans on guns people think are dangerous or that look dangerous. Many states actually ban guns by model, not type, so moving from one state to another is extremely difficult. And even though the national "assault weapons" ban is no longer in effect, several states have adopted its provisions.
posted by corb at 6:19 AM on July 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


Oh, also, an interesting opinion from a cop and NRA firearms instructor: he says that if members of the audience had fired back, people would still have been wounded and died, even some potentially by friendly fire, but probably in lesser quantities.
posted by corb at 6:41 AM on July 27, 2012


Oh, also, an interesting opinion from a cop and NRA firearms instructor: he says that if members of the audience had fired back, people would still have been wounded and died, even some potentially by friendly fire, but probably in lesser quantities.

Here's his qualifiers:
Let's state it hypothetically. Let's assume that I was there in the audience. Heck, let's stack the deck and say I was there with two of my colleagues, hand picked by me to be the best shooters and most deadly guys I could drag in. Let's also state that we're all carrying pistols with multiple reloads on our belts. Let's also say that we were all in optimal spots in the theater to return fire.
it's highly probable that if the NRA were offered a deal where everyone in the country who could pass a criminal background check, hadn't been committed for violent mental illness, and had completed some form of gun training were able to carry their weapon of choice anywhere in the country, they would jump on it in a heartbeat.

Apart from me disagreeing with you wholeheartedly on that possibility--the NRA has blocked bills with mental health statutes and tightening the background check laws and is still doing so today, and despite the mountains of evidence regarding the gun show loophole being a pretty blatant end-run around either or both of those--that wouldn't have stopped this guy. He had no history of violent criminal or mental behavior, and the gun training would possibly have made his attack worse. Despite Romney's claim to the contrary, everything this guy did was legal and above the books until he opened fire.

If the NRA came out everything that you did, I would be surprised, but that still doesn't address several other issues. For instance, for all their complaining that the problem is existing registration laws aren't being enforced, they continually block attempts to do so at all levels of government. I don't need to make any characterization of the NRA to say that blatant hypocrisy like that and their defense of heavy weapons and large magazines is illogical, yet that's something they continue to do.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:08 AM on July 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


furiousxgeorge: "It's better to really find the mutually agreed upon solutions, the NRA agrees with some gun control and the gun control folks agree with arming some civilians. We need to get to the point where we can just pass the agreed upon controls in the most effective ways, rather than demonizing each other."

"The NRA" does not agree with some gun control. NRA members agree with some gun control, but "the NRA" does not represent those beliefs in its lobbying. The NRA has such a vise grip on gun policy in this country that they've moved on to making sure gun laws don't pass in foreign countries.

There really is no common ground here. Close the gun show loophole? Off the table. Mandatory trigger locks? Nope. Banning or restricting the sale of automatic weapons? Forget about it. Gun control supporters would happily take any bone the gun lobby might throw their way, but the NRA has no interest in compromise.

If rank-and-file NRA members and Brady Campaign supporters got together in a room, maybe they could hammer out some marginal tweaks to gun policy in the U.S., but describing this as one of those "both sides need to come together" issues ignores the asymmetric polarization of the two sides.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:26 AM on July 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


There really is no common ground here. Close the gun show loophole? Off the table. Mandatory trigger locks? Nope. Banning or restricting the sale of automatic weapons? Forget about it. Gun control supporters would happily take any bone the gun lobby might throw their way, but the NRA has no interest in compromise.

This is kind of what furiousxgeorge was talking about above - because we can't meet in the middle, people stay at the extremes, and people don't understand each other.

Gun control supporters view the gun show loophole and mandatory trigger locks as a small "bone". But those things are actually incredibly important to gun supporters. Trigger locks are universally hated by every single gun owner I know - they make the weapon less functional. They're something that gun control supporters think is not a big deal, but actually is. As far as the gun show "loophole," again, it's a huge deal - first, because gun owners in many states feel that the regulations are overly restrictive, and so the gun shows are necessary and secondly, because gun shows don't exist sheerly as an exploitive "loophole" - they have meaning and function in their own right.

So if reasonable regulations were enacted, the "problem" of the gun shows wouldn't be as much of a problem. Also, the idea that people wouldn't want the ability to do background checks as private citizens is in error - but most citizens don't have the ability to run background checks on other individuals. I'm pretty pro-gun, but I'd jump in a minute on the ability to check people out before doing business with them.

the NRA has blocked bills with mental health statutes and tightening the background check laws and is still doing so today,

Link? I'm curious which bills you're talking about and which provisions were objectionable.
posted by corb at 8:01 AM on July 27, 2012


Also, another couple of good links.

On Gun Control And Prohibition, from the New York Times: an interesting piece acknowledging the safety aspects of gun control and the positive points of expressive individualism from a social conservative. And another piece from the NYT from a more pro-gun-control perspective, but also acknowledging some of the same social trends as the more conservative piece.

Another opinion on the situation that includes statistics.
posted by corb at 8:26 AM on July 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


corb: I don't see you contesting my main point, which is that the NRA leadership is more polarized on these issues than the gun owners you speak of. Policy isn't made by a survey of gun owners, it's made by the leadership of the NRA.
As far as the gun show "loophole,"
Why the scare-quotes around the word loophole? You're admitting that it's a loophole when you say:
first, because gun owners in many states feel that the regulations are overly restrictive, and so the gun shows are necessary
How does that not meet the textbook definition of a loophole?
they have meaning and function in their own right
Nobody on the pro gun-control side is talking about banning gun shows -- we all understand that they have legitimate commercial purpose. It's the loophole part that's problematic because it's a mechanism for avoiding the few regulations we actually do have. How can the NRA be considered an honest broker for new regulations if they won't even allow existing regulations to be universally enforced?

How about this. Since you don't like any of the reforms I've outlined (trigger locks, closing the loophole, restricting automatic weapons) -- why don't you list a few reforms that you think could be on the table in these negotiations? Your implication is that there would be common ground if the two sides would just understand each other, so I'm curious as to what this common ground looks like.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:40 AM on July 27, 2012


This is kind of what furiousxgeorge was talking about above - because we can't meet in the middle, people stay at the extremes, and people don't understand each other.

Gun control supporters view the gun show loophole and mandatory trigger locks as a small "bone". But those things are actually incredibly important to gun supporters. Trigger locks are universally hated by every single gun owner I know - they make the weapon less functional. They're something that gun control supporters think is not a big deal, but actually is.


That is, of course, the point. It's a safety precaution to prevent accidental gun-related violence or having your weapon used against you, both of which happen not infrequently. Sure, if there was another control in place (e.g., gun safes) then I wouldn't say it's necessary, but the NRA hasn't exactly been jumping on that either. If you've got something other than anecdata about issues with trigger locks, you're welcome to present it.

As far as the gun show "loophole," again, it's a huge deal - first, because gun owners in many states feel that the regulations are overly restrictive, and so the gun shows are necessary and secondly, because gun shows don't exist sheerly as an exploitive "loophole" - they have meaning and function in their own right.

I don't argue that gun shows have a meaning and function in their own right, nor do I think that they should be outlawed. But I fail to see how the regulations are overly restrictive. If anything, the vast majority of them are non-existent (emphasis mine):
Seven states require background checks no matter where a gun is purchased. Of these seven, two states (California and Rhode Island) require background checks on all firearm purchasers. Five states (Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers.

Thirty-three states have done nothing to close the gun show loophole. Seventeen states have taken at least some steps to extend Brady background checks for firearm purchases at gun shows.
Two-thirds of US states basically have no restriction on gun show sales, and only seven of them require background checks, and that's considered "overly restrictive?"

Link? I'm curious which bills you're talking about and which provisions were objectionable.

For starters, there's the Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2009, which would have mandated background checks for gun shows sales and purchases, to which the NRA vehemently objected as an attempt to close down gun shows.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:45 AM on July 27, 2012


How about this. Since you don't like any of the reforms I've outlined (trigger locks, closing the loophole, restricting automatic weapons) -- why don't you list a few reforms that you think could be on the table in these negotiations? Your implication is that there would be common ground if the two sides would just understand each other, so I'm curious as to what this common ground looks like.

Okay, I'm going to take my best stab at this, but keep in mind, I may not be good at it simply because I don't usually sit on the gun-control side, so I may not know all the reforms proposed.

1. All states to adopt regulations where if you've been hospitalized for mental illness, you need to bring a note from a psychiatrist saying that you are unlikely to be a danger to others or that your mental illness is generally not outwardly violent.

2. All states to have resident-only carry permits for new permits, but carry reciprocity to be enacted for short time periods. So let's say NYC wants to enact stronger gun controls on carry than the rest of the country (which they do). They can do so for NYC residents, and people who move to NYC - but if you're a Florida resident travelling through, you're allowed to stop and eat in a restaurant with your gun in the car, maybe stay at a hotel, take in a show. You don't have to frantically make sure you have enough gas that you never have to stop, because if you stop for even five minutes at a gas station, you can be arrested. No one will be deprived of existing permits, but within 20 years you'll have essentially the makeup you want.

3. A cessation of laws against specific gun models, magazines, or types of bullets, to be enforced in conjunction with an amnesty period for all guns, everywhere, to last for perhaps a period of a year, to come forward and be registered, with their serial numbers. After that, penalties against unregistered guns could be severe. I think that many people fail to register their guns when they move due to the patchwork, and more registered guns actually does lead to less crime with them - because there's a direct trail to who used which gun.

4. Gun owners must pass a simple background check, to determine that they haven't committed a felony or perhaps some categories of violent misdemeanor. Once they do, if they declare intent to sell a gun, they will be granted free online access to a background check registry, so they are able to use the same system gun store owners can use at no cost. Once this system is in place, gun owners who sell guns to people who do not pass a background check are subject to severe penalties.

For starters, there's the Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2009, which would have mandated background checks for gun shows sales and purchases, to which the NRA vehemently objected as an attempt to close down gun shows.

Specifically, you mentioned that the NRA has blocked "blocked bills with mental health statutes and tightening the background check laws," so I was curious about links to one of those, not the gun show bit, which is highly contested for reasons I detailed above.

I'm preparing an answer to your above on more restrictive and less restrictive gun laws, but it's going to be long, so doing it separately.
posted by corb at 9:50 AM on July 27, 2012




Great, stabbing spree ended in Salt Lake, Door to Door Salesman shot dead in FLA.

How are well is each side doing on odds and statistics today?
posted by stagewhisper at 11:34 AM on July 27, 2012


I like a lot of the reforms you mention, corb, with small modifications. For instance, for #3 I'd add a category for number of guns as well as type. The shooters from Columbine, Aurora, and VA Tech, just to name a few, all had several guns. Same goes for the gun owner mentioned in stagewhisper's link (14) , as well as this almost-copycat from Maryland (20).
posted by zombieflanders at 12:04 PM on July 27, 2012


But I fail to see how the regulations are overly restrictive. If anything, the vast majority of them are non-existent (emphasis mine):

Oh god, this is going to be lengthy, but okay, here goes:

So, first, people tend to think of "machine gun bans" as just banning machine guns. But that's entirely inaccurate. "Machine gun bans" tend to be bans on NFA weapons, the National Firearms Act that taxes the transfer of weapons that had nothing to do with their actual danger to the public, but everything to do with the perception of them as "gangster weapons." So yes, the NFA affects machine guns and grenades and flamethrowers, but also short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles and silencers and sawed-off shotguns, and the specific size your bore can be. And also things that no one in their right mind would think were dangerous to the public, but that were SCARY! Like cane guns, which generally only contain one shot, and you would think would be WAY LESS DANGEROUS than just about anything else on the planet. Or umbrella guns. Or a regular handgun, but with a foregrip that doesn't make the weapon any more dangerous, but lets you hold it with two hands.

(On a sidenote, that's maybe something I'd support: more regulation for things like machineguns and grenades, but taking all of those "other weapons that just seem scary" off the list.)

Also, many states have enacted the no-longer-current "assault weapons ban," which as previously stated here is not really meaningful.

I like a lot of the reforms you mention, corb, with small modifications. For instance, for #3 I'd add a category for number of guns as well as type. The shooters from Columbine, Aurora, and VA Tech, just to name a few, all had several guns. Same goes for the gun owner mentioned in stagewhisper's link (14) , as well as this almost-copycat from Maryland (20).

See, and people say there can never be agreement! But I think our current gun policy is in a state of MAD and no one wants to be the first to blink for fear of losing.

I will say though, "number of guns" is another one of those things that seems scary, but in reality is meaningless as a protection device. Most shooters had several guns, sure - but so do most gun owners I know as well. Having a lot of guns doesn't make you a gun hobbyist. It's more like having different kinds of lures and fishhooks. And the thing is, you can only effectively shoot one gun at a time. You can only physically shoot two at a time, and you're sacrificing accuracy. Machine guns take two hands unless you're Atlas.

This is another one where there's a lot of misunderstanding, though. Non-gun-owners think, "14 guns? My god, that man must have been a madman prepping for a squad for WWIII!" Gun owners tend to think, "Wow, that guy has a lot of disposable income/I bet he's single." Not because 14 guns is dangerous, but because by the time you get to that point, usually the other person you live with is tapping their foot and saying, "Yes, that special estate find is very pretty and historical, but can we maybe fix the house?" It's kind of like....the gun equivalent of being a stereotypical comic book nerd who owns everything first run. Either that, or he's keeping them as a way of keeping cash - like some people would stockpile jewelry. Gun value almost never goes down, so it can be viewed as an investment. Buy low, sell at election high or when you need a few bucks.
posted by corb at 12:17 PM on July 27, 2012


I understand the frustration with gun laws that prohibit certain gun or gun modifications mostly because they only look or sound scary, but at the same time, banning cane guns and umbrella guns being seems eminently reasonable to me. They might make for neat collector's items, but as actual weapons, they're much more suited for crooks than for practical daily protection, let alone sportsmanship.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:39 PM on July 27, 2012


Add this to your list, zombieflanders.

By the way, I was visiting family in Maine when that happened, and my sister and her boyfriend were in the same theater complex that Saturday evening seeing the Avengers while the suspect was watching Dark Knight (we opted not to go with them since my better half had already seen The Avengers).

I'm weirded out by all of the qualifiers in your list, corb, such as "unlikely to be a danger to others or that your mental illness is generally not outwardly violent" and they will be checked "to determine that they haven't committed a felony or perhaps some categories of violent misdemeanor."

That really doesn't instill confidence in how much you care about the odds of people legally getting their hands on guns who in no way should have access to them.
posted by stagewhisper at 12:53 PM on July 27, 2012


They might make for neat collector's items, but as actual weapons, they're much more suited for crooks than for practical daily protection, let alone sportsmanship.

I think they're in a weird space where you can sort of consider them "concealed" weapons but if people *can* carry them, and people know that a cane or an umbrella might be a gun, how do you determine what counts as "brandishing?" They might be sort of fun toys - I desperately want a cane sword myself, for no good reason - but I agree that they're in a weird place.

But corb has a point about the law being as much about the mythos of a weapon as the actual danger. Switchblades are an excellent example of this - there's no real difference between a switchblade and a decent folder, or a butterfly knife, but switchblades got a reputation as a thug's weapon and so they're outlawed. Doesn't make any particular sense.

(I dislike guns quite a bit, both on a visceral and logical level, but I am all for sharp things. Although I am not at all a fan of the idea of people being allowed to carry weapon-length blades in public, concealed or otherwise, because people are dumb.)
posted by restless_nomad at 1:32 PM on July 27, 2012


Well, my qualifiers are mainly because I know how risk-averse psychiatrists are. If you require them to write a paper saying, "This person will never be a danger to others, this person's mental illness will never manifest in outward-directed violence," then no one will ever get a certificate ever, because they'll be too afraid of getting it wrong by making such an unqualified statement.

I think, as has been mentioned above, that mental illnesses tend to be stereotyped in a way that's not cool. So for example, you might have someone with ADD. Should they never have a weapon, because it's possible they might be violent someday? Should that person with ADD be treated the same as someone with paranoid schizophrenia? Let's say you have someone who has PTSD from being raped or otherwise assaulted. Should that person never again have access to a firearm? It's really easy to say "No one who's mentally healthy should have a firearm," but that's a broad, broad category, and many of us are not comfortable putting that requirement on.
posted by corb at 1:36 PM on July 27, 2012




Holmes' and his attorney claim that the package he sent to Dr. Lynne Fenton at the university's Anschutz Medical Campus is protected doctor/patient privilege. Prosecutors argue that it is not. The judge has agreed to hear arguments on Monday when Holmes will formally be charged.
posted by ericb at 1:56 PM on July 27, 2012




Whoa. From ericb's link: "Of Holmes, it says: "Kills 12 in a movie theater with assault rifle, everyone freaks out." Of Obama, it says: "Kills thousands with foreign policy, wins Nobel Peace Prize.""

The parallelism set up here is just appalling.

First, you've got the Holmes version of 'kills': direct and violent terrorism. Then the Obama version of 'kills', which is intended to be equivalent to the first structure, which even if true would imply direct killing, which the Obama sense of 'kills' certainly is not.

In the next part, twelve vs. thousands, alludes to the disparity in scale. It pits two the counts against each other, with the idea of the greater number being the greater [X], and therefore warranting the greater reaction.

Next, 'with assault rifle' vs. 'with foreign policy' positions foreign policy as a weapon. The problem here is that an assault rifle is always a weapon. Foreign policy is a concept, metonymically referring to a set of beliefs/plans/actions, some of which can have deadly outcomes but aren't intended or designed for that purpose. It is not something tangible, or ownable by man, especially a single person.

Then the last bit, the result: everyone freaks out vs. wins Nobel Peace Prize. Notice how the range has been shifted. On the Holmes side, you've got people "freaking out", as if it was that somebody got voted off the reality TV island, or failed a math exam, or any number of things that people generally "freak out" about. Freaking out implies that the reaction of the people is irrational, perhaps extreme or unwarranted. It's colloquial and trivialized...it's like the whole thing got shoved through a bandwidth filter and the lower limit has been lopped off.

The Nobel Peace Prize is bestowed on someone who has made great strides in peace efforts. It's decided by 5 members of Norway's Parliament.

So the equivalency here...are the people who "freak out" over 12 dead the same as those who award achievement? Can we say that this is the people's hypocrisy? That they had a little panic over a dozen and gave world-recognized praise for the thousand?

Or perhaps the real message is that if it were more than 12 (perhaps thousands), the people would do more than merely "freak out". Is that the point of the scale?

Perhaps the sign is trying to say that the foreign policy is dangerous, like a terrorist in a theater is dangerous. Is the call to action then to get rid of this weapon called "foreign policy", like we should get rid of all weapons akin to assault rifles?

So what is it trying to say? Perhaps it's in the pictures. From a certain ideological perspective, they're the strongest argument for the type of equivalency they're trying to make.

Appalling is nowhere near a strong enough word for what it all is.
posted by iamkimiam at 5:44 PM on July 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'm intrigued that the NRA's webcast was focused on the U.N. issue.

Moran rallies 50 senators to oppose arms treaty
posted by homunculus at 6:16 PM on July 27, 2012


corb writes "A cessation of laws against specific gun models, magazines, or types of bullets, to be enforced in conjunction with an amnesty period for all guns, everywhere, to last for perhaps a period of a year, to come forward and be registered, with their serial numbers. After that, penalties against unregistered guns could be severe. I think that many people fail to register their guns when they move due to the patchwork, and more registered guns actually does lead to less crime with them - because there's a direct trail to who used which gun. "

Canada's registration scheme cost something like 2 Billion to register the guns of 3 million gun owners. The US has at least 40 million gun owners (40 million is the low end of estimates of gun owning households revealed by a quick Google search). So realistically figure at least 40 billion dollars just in the start up. Plus the cost of enforcement vs the sure to be huge class of people refusing to register.

And of course registration is only a direct trail if one leaves the gun at the scene of the crime so only catches the already caught or the incredibly stupid.

zombieflanders writes "For instance, for #3 I'd add a category for number of guns as well as type. The shooters from Columbine, Aurora, and VA Tech, just to name a few, all had several guns. Same goes for the gun owner mentioned in stagewhisper's link (14) , as well as this almost-copycat from Maryland (20)."

This would just be a feel good restriction because the upper limit would have to be set so high as to not impact the nut case on his rampage in any way.
posted by Mitheral at 9:22 PM on July 27, 2012


...Even the cheaper safes are going to be extremely difficult for kids to get into.

Forbes.com: Unsafe Gun Safes Can Be Opened By A Three Year Old.
posted by ceribus peribus at 9:16 AM on July 28, 2012


Forbes.com: Unsafe Gun Safes Can Be Opened By A Three Year Old.

The same article notes that the same is true of trigger locks, though:

I have written about the insecurity of gun locks for protecting access to weapons, especially by kids. We evaluated a number of popular gun locks in 2007 and found they were essentially worthless. A detailed report on our findings, with video was also released in 2007. To further the security myth of cheap or poorly constructed or designed locks for guns, millions of cable locks have been provided through a fifty-million dollar Justice Department grant to the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). For Project ChildSafe, which we also found poor in quality and often easily compromised.

If kids have access to your home, your guns should be in a real safe with real bolts (the kind you get from a locksmith for $800, not from Wal*Mart for $80). Storing ammunition separately is wise.
posted by vorfeed at 2:48 PM on July 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Legit gun safes are usually owned by people who treat guns as valuables. For those with a more casual approach to gun ownership, or who buy one or two for "protection," they're simply never going to invest.

My dad is a gun dealer. I asked him how business has been since the attack, and he answered, very cautiously, that it has been damn good, and that he's moved more product in the last week than he did in the entire preceding month. Which is really saying something, because ever since Obama was elected, he's been selling ammo literally faster than it can be manufactured -- his orders are usually just partially filled, because the factories can't keep up with the demand.

He seemed kind of conflicted about having sold so many guns and bullets in the wake of this new crisis. "It's just... a hell of a thing. It makes me sick in the heart to think about it," he told me. The fact that he can feel that way BUT have zero conflict with selling to people who are buying in direct response to that event made me sick in the stomach, so I got off the phone as soon as possible.
posted by hermitosis at 4:18 PM on July 28, 2012 [6 favorites]


To expand on what pla posted earlier, technology is going render these gun control discussions moot. You'll be able to use a 3D printer to make your own functional firearms in the not at all distant future. In your home. Without anyone knowing.

All the gun control laws in the world won't help you then. So either we come to grips with the societal issues which lead to this kind of rampage (easier said than done) or we get ourselves a nice tyrannical government willing to do things like outlaw 3d printing technology. Because absent invasive authoritarian government it will be impossible to prevent someone from extruding their own weapon.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on July 28, 2012


Colorado shooting victim suffers miscarriage during recovery.

Is it possible that the shooter would be charged, as it's a direct result of trauma? How would that work?
posted by mochapickle at 8:27 PM on July 28, 2012


Recent Colorado House Bill 1130 would have added a felony to the list of charges, but it got killed. So I'm not familiar with a way he could be charged with the death of the fetus.
posted by Night_owl at 11:46 PM on July 28, 2012






An Aurora theatre survivor on the media

Part 2: An Aurora Theater Survivor’s Message To The Politicians
posted by homunculus at 11:00 AM on July 29, 2012 [2 favorites]


Those two "An Aurora theatre survivor" links are at Suicide Girls, so I'm guessing on a scale of 1-10 on the NSFW scale ... they're probably about a 7.
posted by Mezentian at 9:51 PM on July 29, 2012


More like 2-4.
posted by Artw at 9:55 PM on July 29, 2012


Man. Suicide Girls have sold out.

I'm at work, so I'm gonna click on them later. Just to be safe.
posted by Mezentian at 9:57 PM on July 29, 2012


Well, the URL probably counts for something, I'm sure if you hunt around in all the social media sidebar crap you can find *something* naughty looking.
posted by Artw at 10:02 PM on July 29, 2012


Now that I am home I have checked the links. There is not much in the way of scantily-clad, faux lesbians with even faker hair colour at all.

Those are fascinating reading. Thanks.

Death knocks always make me cringe. They seem so dehumanising.
posted by Mezentian at 12:53 AM on July 30, 2012


Legit gun safes are usually owned by people who treat guns as valuables. For those with a more casual approach to gun ownership, or who buy one or two for "protection," they're simply never going to invest.

Hmm. This may be true - though I think it's possible to think of guns as valuables /and/ want guns for protection /and/ hunting and suchlike, you are probably right about the majority of casual gun owners.

He seemed kind of conflicted about having sold so many guns and bullets in the wake of this new crisis. "It's just... a hell of a thing. It makes me sick in the heart to think about it," he told me. The fact that he can feel that way BUT have zero conflict with selling to people who are buying in direct response to that event made me sick in the stomach, so I got off the phone as soon as possible.

This might help you feel better about your dad: many of these people are not buying in direct response to the event persay, but what they fear are the new laws that are going to be passed in direct response to the event.

So I'm not familiar with a way he could be charged with the death of the fetus.


Yeah, those bits always make me squickly, because if a guy with a gun can be charged with death of a fetus, how long before a doctor will? At the same time, losing the possibility of a baby you dearly want is a tragedy. Maybe they could tack it on as emotional suffering of the woman?
posted by corb at 6:01 AM on July 30, 2012




Suspect won't be charged in connection to miscarriage

'Defense attorney Karen Steinhauser, a former prosecutor and current adjunct professor at the University of Denver, said homicide charges in Colorado apply only to those "who had been born and alive." '
posted by caryatid at 9:27 AM on July 30, 2012




A Miracle Inside the Aurora Shooting: One Victim’s Story
“If the pellet had wavered a millimeter, really in any direction from what it actually took, then she would have likely either died or been severely injured. I would say this is definitely a miracle…It would be hard to create a path similar to this where it goes all the way from the front to the back and misses every single blood vessel, doesn’t bother any of the major structures, and leaves her able to talk and move everything and not be paralyzed or dead. Never in my entire career have I seen a case where a bullet has traversed the entire brain like this and not caused severe damage or death.”
I don't know about a miracle, but it is amazing.
posted by unliteral at 6:54 PM on July 30, 2012


Calling it a miracle is so offensive.
posted by agregoli at 7:04 AM on July 31, 2012 [7 favorites]


Yeah, I'm glad God was on the case for that one lady. Those other dead folks? Fuck 'em.
posted by OmieWise at 9:04 AM on July 31, 2012 [7 favorites]


Someone got shot through the brain and lived. I'm going to give them a pass on language.
posted by Artw at 10:32 AM on July 31, 2012 [4 favorites]


Did you read the blog post? This wasn't a vernacular use of the word miracle, which of course I would never think twice about. Indeed, I might use the word in such a way myself. This was an explicitly religious use of the word by a pastor. Such a use certainly suggest particular and special intervention, which raises the question of what the author thought was going on for the people un-miraculous enough to be shot dead. It is an offensive use of the word.
posted by OmieWise at 11:51 AM on July 31, 2012 [4 favorites]


Suspect won't be charged in connection to miscarriage

Nice find, caryatid. I wasn't sure whether they would press in that direction similar to the fetal death charges from the Oklahoma City bombing. Like corb, the thought of it was making me feel a bit squickly in terms of how that logic could be applied to women's health issues.
posted by mochapickle at 1:54 PM on July 31, 2012


For that particular woman, it WAS miraculous, in any sense of the term you wish to use.

I'm sure for survivors-and I would imagine it would be the same for that woman-the toughest part is ahead-wondering why they lived and others did not. For many of us believers, it falls into the category of "each of us has a predetermined time to go." For the rest of us, it simply is a tough thing to parse through. Death seems awfully random sometimes.


Meanwhile, I'm glad that she survived despite being shot through the head. I hope as she deals with the horrific memories of that night she can emerge through the emotional trauma just as miraculously.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:32 PM on July 31, 2012


The Daily Caller Has a Free Gun for the Person Who Catches Their Hacker

Tucker Carlson's bastion of patriotic respectability, the Daily Caller, has hit upon a flawless trifecta of birds to kill with one 9mm, via the eleventh edition of its weekly gun giveaway. (Yes, weekly.) See, yesterday, the website was hacked with hardcore porn ads that undermined the whole family-friendly vibe of the enterprise, so the new contest first serves to get to the bottom of that crime: " ... if you're the first person to find our hacker and turn his name over to us, we'll give you a gun." Additionally, "We'll give a prize" — a gun engraved with the Bill of Rights — "to the person with the funniest and most inventive ideas for how TheDC should repay this jerk."
Along with facilitating justice, the giveaway serves to assert the site's support for the Second Amendment, even in the face of national tragedy. Instead of the typical one firearm prize, they're handing out two!
Most important of all, the out-of-touch macho posturing wins Carlson & Co. attention from the scandalized, stupefied, and sympathetic alike. Welcome to the Internet.
That said, an unintended consequence could very well be riling up more hackers. Bombs away.

posted by futz at 3:32 PM on July 31, 2012


Holy crap. They have a weekly gun giveaway?! I missed that on first read.
posted by futz at 3:37 PM on July 31, 2012




Holy

.
posted by stagewhisper at 4:56 PM on July 31, 2012


The real miracle would be if Mefiers didn't hold widely differing opinions on the use of the word miracle!

it'd be a boring miracle, though
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:10 PM on July 31, 2012


A weekly gun giveaway? Holy fucksticks.

What do you do when people already own machine guns? Do you ask them to turn it in? If you do, do you compensate them for it? Do you pay a fair market value, if you do? Do you pay for all of the improvements the person has made in the weapon? If you don't, are you taking property of value from them without offering any in return?

Yes, you do ask them to turn it in, politely but firmly. It's what we did in Australia after a mass-shooting. You pay fair market value. I have no idea about improvements, but I don't see a problem with compensation for those too. Plus amnesty for people turning in illegally possessed guns, because we're starting fresh now.

As mentioned above, you'd need at least $60 million to do this in the USA (I assume it'd really be much more than that) but oh well, the army will have to do without new fighter jets for a few months. I'm sure they'll cry themselves to sleep on top of their existing largest weapons cache in the world.

Again, these are not brand-new, unheard-of ways of dealing with the issue. It worked very well for Australia and for other places. It's just that the NRA likes to pretend it's impossible. Spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt is their number one tactic; hypocrisy doesn't bother them. They're not interested in what their membership thinks, they only care about what their corporate sponsors want.
posted by harriet vane at 2:32 AM on August 1, 2012 [15 favorites]


harriet vane's comment just above deserves a round of applause. That's some sensible muzzafubbin' shit right there.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:31 AM on August 1, 2012


Meanwhile, I'm glad that she survived despite being shot through the head. I hope as she deals with the horrific memories of that night she can emerge through the emotional trauma just as miraculously.

Well, of course. But you know that for the humanists they want all the folks from the theater to have lived. And it seems like the use of the word miracle here suggests that it isn't a tragedy that the other folks died because an interventionist God willed it so. That's the offensive notion for humanists.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just trying to understand how you understand this situation that doesn't have God approving of the deaths of a bunch of folks but interceding on behalf of this one woman. Is there a way that this is understood such that the latter is true but the former is not?

I get that there are interpretations here that this is, precisely, God showing his or her displeasure at how people live, or what they do, or with the world they are a part of. I don't want to argue about what it means that there are those interpretations, or what the "proper" way to live is. I'm honestly curious about whether there's a theological understanding of this such that one person is saved, but the others are not condemned.
posted by OmieWise at 6:20 AM on August 1, 2012


I get that there are interpretations here that this is, precisely, God showing his or her displeasure at how people live, or what they do, or with the world they are a part of. I don't want to argue about what it means that there are those interpretations, or what the "proper" way to live is. I'm honestly curious about whether there's a theological understanding of this such that one person is saved, but the others are not condemned.

Well, my best understanding is that even Jesus warned that people who suffer a tragedy are no better or worse than those who don't, so I personally don't go THERE.

All I can really say is that my own personal understanding is this: That every one of us has a time to go, and that if it isn't your time to go, it isn't your time to go. That is to say, I do not know why God would miraculously save one person while others perished, but I would suppose He had his reasons.

I think it is a fool's errand to speculate why one person survives and one doesn't; of course the survivor will be grateful but I do understand why the loved ones of those who lost their lives would be upset. I am certainly not happy when those I love die.


As for the woman shot through the brain and living-well, that is an incredible thing no matter what your take on it is.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:44 AM on August 1, 2012




Man, how odd, yeah.
He added, "Had that incident not happened in Colorado maybe none of this would've happened, maybe people would've just thought, here's another nut and let's just keep watching our movie."
I'd have to guess that in any other circumstances that's exactly what it'd have been, maybe a few people shouting at him to shut up. But maybe the guy missed his calling as a movie monster or something. Shouting pronouns and copulas in a crowded theater.
posted by cortex at 10:57 AM on August 1, 2012


Bruce Schneier: Drawing the wrong lessons from horrific events
posted by homunculus at 11:15 AM on August 1, 2012 [1 favorite]


maybe the guy missed his calling as a movie monster or something.

He even looks like Tor Johnson!
posted by octobersurprise at 11:20 AM on August 1, 2012


All I can really say is that my own personal understanding is this: That every one of us has a time to go, and that if it isn't your time to go, it isn't your time to go. That is to say, I do not know why God would miraculously save one person while others perished, but I would suppose He had his reasons.

Ok, thanks.
posted by OmieWise at 11:34 AM on August 1, 2012


Just a final note on Australia's massive gun buyback scheme: it was instigated by then-Prime-Minister John Howard, a social-conservative politician who I was (and remain) diametrically opposed to on just about every issue. But after the Port Arthur massacre he saw what had to be done, knew there would be consequences for him politically, and sucked it up and did it anyway. It was the bravest and most moral thing he did in his decade as PM.

Here he is writing about it now: Brothers in arms, yes, but the US needs to get rid of its guns.
... firearm homicides, in Australia, dropped 59 per cent between 1995 and 2006. There was no offsetting increase in non-firearm-related murders. Researchers at Harvard University in 2011 revealed that in the 18 years prior to the 1996 Australian laws, there were 13 gun massacres (four or more fatalities) in Australia, resulting in 102 deaths. There have been none in that category since the Port Arthur laws... Between 1996 and 1998 more than 700,000 guns were removed and destroyed. This was one-fifth of Australia's estimated stock of firearms.
I'll shut up about it now, it just struck me as worth a link here.
posted by harriet vane at 11:23 PM on August 1, 2012 [5 favorites]


It's no use, harriet.


> Man allegedly yells 'This is it!' at Batman

And lived?

I can't believe he wasn't immediately gunned down by a posse of theatre goers all packing concealed weapons; or at least pistol whipped.

More evidence that guns aren't the problem; it's academic. (What gag?): CU Psychiatrist Called Threat-Team Members About Holmes
posted by de at 7:00 AM on August 2, 2012


Here we go again...Several people reported shot at Sikh temple in Wisconsin:
At least four people were shot Sunday morning at a Sikh temple outside of Milwaukee, local media reported.

Witnesses told NBC station WTMJ of Milwaukee that at least one gunman opened fire inside the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in Oak Creek, south of Milwaukee along Lake Michigan. The shooting happened shortly after 10 a.m., about 90 minutes before Sunday services were to begin.

At least four victims were seen covered on the ground outside the temple. The temple's president was among those shot, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported.Sukhwindar Nagr, of Racine, said he called his brother-in-law's phone and a priest at the temple answered, The Associated Press reported. Nagr said the priest told him that his brother-in-law had been shot, along with three priests. Nagr said the priest also said women and children were hiding in closets at the temple.

A temple committee member, Ven Boba Ri, told the Journal-Sentinel that people inside the temple described the shooter was a white male in his 30s.

"We have no idea," he said of the motive. "It's pretty much a hate crime. It's not an insider."

Ri told the Journal-Sentinel the gunman walked up to a priest who was standing outside the temple and shot him. Then he went inside and started shooting.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:58 AM on August 5, 2012


Reports are saying 6 dead including the gunman. sigh.
posted by futz at 12:20 PM on August 5, 2012


Sorry. That should have said 7.
posted by futz at 12:21 PM on August 5, 2012


Update on Bonnie Kate.
posted by ColdChef at 8:40 PM on August 5, 2012 [2 favorites]


Glad to hear she's doing well, so far.
posted by harriet vane at 3:34 AM on August 6, 2012


Aurora Rise Benefit Event
posted by homunculus at 5:34 PM on August 6, 2012




I just popped in to post that last link.

What's with people taking bags of weapons to Batman? It's not even that violent a movie.
posted by Mezentian at 5:31 PM on August 7, 2012


Not only that, but the hero of the story is basically against guns.
posted by homunculus at 6:20 PM on August 7, 2012


In related news, an American tourist in Canada was recently asked a question by a passerby and felt impotent because he did not have a firearm with him.

A man should be al-lowed to protect himself if the need arises. The need arose in a theatre in Aurora, Colo., as well as a college campus in Canada.

posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:33 AM on August 8, 2012 [2 favorites]


Oh God, I was about to post that.

"Greetings! I am a lunatic.

Why am I not able to carry a weapon in your country? Two men approached me in broad daylight and asked if I had gone to see the Stampede. It felt weird not to be able to kill them in that moment; so see and taste the spray of their blood on my lips; to kneel down over their twitching bodies and to suck out their final breaths, in order to gain their memories and strength.

Boy, aren't you guys weird.

Yours sincerely, a lunatic.

P.S. I do not want to go see THE STAMPEDE, because I would probably get TRAMPLED, you IDIOTS."
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:48 AM on August 8, 2012 [8 favorites]


Apparently I'm not the only one to (incorrectly) think that creepy hyphen guy couldn't possibly exist.
Yes, Walt Wawra is a real person. No, the letter we published from him Tuesday, about the “confrontation” he and his wife had with two Calgarians in Nose Hill Park, was not a hoax. The fact that so many readers have written in, or posted comments online, wondering if it was for real, speaks volumes about the cultural differences between Canadians and Americans.
posted by zamboni at 9:22 AM on August 8, 2012


some people really should just stay home
posted by philip-random at 9:24 AM on August 8, 2012 [1 favorite]


tl; dr: "I get nervous when people talk to me and I would like to be able to shoot them."

Or, "We are vain and we are blind,/ I hate people when they're not polite."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:59 AM on August 8, 2012 [1 favorite]


Not too surprising: Holmes' defense team claim he's mentally ill

Also, just a couple of days ago Jared Loughner (of the 2011 Tucson shooting) was found competent to stand trial and plead guilty of all counts. I hadn't been following the progress of his case, but apparently the prosecution agreed to life without parole instead of the death penalty in return for wrapping things up quickly without a trial.
posted by Rhomboid at 7:21 PM on August 9, 2012


So I saw the Tennessee road sign again today -- 604 dead so far this year, about 47 since the shooting.

But this isn't national news, even though that huge death toll is compressed into less than 1% of the total population of the US. It's a real, ongoing threat. It just keeps chewing away at us, killing more people every week. But it's not national news, even though we've lost 50ish people in about three weeks.

If you want to argue about total systemic costs of having guns in the country, that makes logical sense. But arguing from the standpoint of one-offs like this is so, so messed up. We incorrectly prioritize events like these as being far more important than they actually are.

I once heard a professor of mathematics talk about the lottery. When asked by the DJ for a quick summary of his position, he said, "Play all you like. You won't win."

I'd offer a corollary; live as long as you like. You will not be shot by a crazed gunman who doesn't know you. And if you, like the DJ did all those years ago, ask "Wait, how can you know that? How can you be sure?", then I'd have to reply exactly the way the professor did: "Wanna bet?"
posted by Malor at 1:17 PM on August 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'd offer a corollary; live as long as you like. You will not be shot by a crazed gunman who doesn't know you. And if you, like the DJ did all those years ago, ask "Wait, how can you know that? How can you be sure?", then I'd have to reply exactly the way the professor did: "Wanna bet?"

Great, if none of us are ever going to be shot by a crazed gunman who doesn't know us, then there is no reason for any of us to have guns at all. Let's get rid of them then. Problem solved. Whew, that was easy!
posted by cairdeas at 11:58 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well, except for the people who will shoot you if you try to take their guns away. Maybe not so easy.
posted by Malor at 3:45 PM on August 14, 2012


The point is, Malor, you've pretty much ruled out the "we need our guns for protection!!!" argument.
posted by cairdeas at 8:58 AM on August 15, 2012


So you think the only reason to ever want a gun is to protect yourself against crazed people shooting you in a movie theater?
posted by Malor at 9:24 AM on August 15, 2012


Pssst, cairdeas, you forget the militia.
posted by de at 9:51 AM on August 15, 2012


Good point, de. I also forgot about rioters. We've always gotta watch our backs for those!
posted by cairdeas at 10:53 AM on August 15, 2012


Oh and Armageddon.
posted by cairdeas at 10:54 AM on August 15, 2012


So you think the only reason to ever want a gun is to protect yourself against crazed people shooting you in a movie theater?

I am just pointing out the logic fail in what you are saying.

1. Gun violence against innocent people is so rare and will never happen to you. Also we have tons of highway deaths. You should not concern yourself with any threat that kills fewer people than highway deaths do.

+

2. We need to have guns, lots of guns, to protect ourselves from gun violence against innocent people.

=

Logic fail.
posted by cairdeas at 11:08 AM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]


This is way at the end of the conversation but as some one who splits their time between the United States and two countries with strict gun controls I have these personal observations. The gun culture in the United States detracts from the rewards and pleasure of living in the United States. It makes the U.S. just a bit more ugly, less civilized and provokes fear not reassurance. I am sophisticated enough to know that the U.S. is to far down the tracks to reverse much of this but that in no way makes it desirable or inevitable. I have yet to have anyone demonstrate a convincing argument how owning a shotgun or long rifle is not sufficient and reasonable protection for the home and personal safety. I suppose if one is so worried about being shot/robbed in a public venue (or home) then carry a double barrel shotgun with shells in your hand. Seriously, this country is not a nicer, friendlier or even safer place because of handguns and (semi)automatic weapons.
posted by rmhsinc at 12:04 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]




I said this a couple of weeks ago in response to some other stupidity, but man, anyone who manages to shoot themself in the ass deserves to have their guns taken away and their opinions about guns discounted.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:51 PM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]


overheard recently ...

guns don't kill people. people kill people. it's time we got rid of people once and for all.
posted by philip-random at 1:17 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]


Gun Obsessed Americans Are Keeping Russian AK-47 Production Alive
The New York Times reports that the Kalashnikov factory in Izhevsk, Russia—a town called the "Armory of Russia"—is selling just as many AK-47s to the United States as to the Russian police and military combined.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:53 AM on August 16, 2012 [1 favorite]


Had my hair cut this evening and discovered my awesome hairdresser, Todd Peckham, had saved two lives that night. The poor guy is still shaken--but while many others stood around in shock or afraid, he saved one person and then went back in a second time to save someone else.

Wanted to share that because I'm blown away by how awesome he was and so frustrated that he's still reeling.
posted by NailsTheCat at 7:55 PM on August 16, 2012 [2 favorites]


Better article (Denver Post).
posted by NailsTheCat at 8:47 PM on August 16, 2012


« Older Couldn't they just go with "Czech It Out"?   |   First woman StarCraft II champion? Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments