Not insane...
August 24, 2012 1:10 PM Subscribe
Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik was jailed for a maximum term on Friday when judges declared him sane enough to answer for the murder of 77 people last year, drawing a smirk of triumph from the self-styled warrior against Islam. Anders Breivik sentenced to a maximum of 21 yrs.
Previously.
Previously.
This post was deleted for the following reason: A post just reporting the verdict is not really substantial enough for an FPP. -- restless_nomad
Anders Breivik sentenced to a maximum of 21 yrs.
Heh, maybe in theory: "release, however, can be put off indefinitely should he still pose a threat".
You think that the local parole board is going to view a man who undertook political violence based on fundamental racism, advocated for the same and sought to create copycats as no threat? Maybe if he has a ludicrously big character change. Maybe.
posted by jaduncan at 1:13 PM on August 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
Heh, maybe in theory: "release, however, can be put off indefinitely should he still pose a threat".
You think that the local parole board is going to view a man who undertook political violence based on fundamental racism, advocated for the same and sought to create copycats as no threat? Maybe if he has a ludicrously big character change. Maybe.
posted by jaduncan at 1:13 PM on August 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
He wanted to make people see the dangers of multiculturalism, but he only made people see the dangers of right-wing extremism.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:13 PM on August 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:13 PM on August 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
Sad.
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:15 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:15 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
You can be sane enough to participate in your own legal defense and understand the charges against you, and still be bug-fuck crazy. He thinks he won something with this, but I imagine most people will still think that killing 77 people for the "reasons" he did is still completely nuts.
posted by rtha at 1:16 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by rtha at 1:16 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
He got what he wanted. He was worried he would be found mentally ill, because that would undermine his political project. So chalk this up as a win for him.
Strangely, most people in Norway seemed to also want him to be found sane, including many survivors and families of those killed. I can't quite understand that, honestly. Why would you want a court to find that a man who killed 77 people did so for rational reasons? Wouldn't it be more comforting (if comfort is what you want) to know that he was insane?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:16 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Strangely, most people in Norway seemed to also want him to be found sane, including many survivors and families of those killed. I can't quite understand that, honestly. Why would you want a court to find that a man who killed 77 people did so for rational reasons? Wouldn't it be more comforting (if comfort is what you want) to know that he was insane?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:16 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
The prison he's going to was used as a concentration camp for Norwegian opposition once the Germans took over in WWII. Some pictures here. More monastic penitentiary than correctional penitentiary, really.
posted by resurrexit at 1:18 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by resurrexit at 1:18 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Mixed feelings on the death penalty, but if there was ever a case where someone should he held in jail for the rest of his life without a chance parole, this is it.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:18 PM on August 24, 2012
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:18 PM on August 24, 2012
A maximum of 21 years, wow. That must be the rehabilitation thing other countries are always going on about.
posted by 2bucksplus at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2012
posted by 2bucksplus at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2012
of course not. Calling an enemy insane doesn't help anything.
"How do you know he's insane? Because he believes these crazy things about race relations! Why does he believe those things? Because he's insane!"
"insanity" leads nowhere. Either punish the man, or rehabilitate him. Don't write him off with a label.
posted by rebent at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
"How do you know he's insane? Because he believes these crazy things about race relations! Why does he believe those things? Because he's insane!"
"insanity" leads nowhere. Either punish the man, or rehabilitate him. Don't write him off with a label.
posted by rebent at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2012 [6 favorites]
Unless something extraordinary happens, he will be locked up forever. Good for everyone
posted by mumimor at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2012
posted by mumimor at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2012
...he's going to...
Er, the prison he's been in, apparently.
posted by resurrexit at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2012
Er, the prison he's been in, apparently.
posted by resurrexit at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2012
As I am married to someone with a mental illness, I personally wouldn't find comfort in it, no.
posted by Brocktoon at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2012 [2 favorites]
2bucksplus: A maximum of 21 years, wow. That must be the rehabilitation thing other countries are always going on about.RTFA.
posted by IAmBroom at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2012 [3 favorites]
A maximum of 21 years, wow.
Which can be stretched indefinitely if they find he's still a danger, and politically, he will likely always be a danger.
posted by rtha at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2012
Which can be stretched indefinitely if they find he's still a danger, and politically, he will likely always be a danger.
posted by rtha at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2012
Fuck him. With any luck, from tomorrow onwards, we never have to think, hear of or hear from him again, which is just as it should be.
Also, fuck him.
posted by Hartham's Hugging Robots at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Also, fuck him.
posted by Hartham's Hugging Robots at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Why would you want a court to find that a man who killed 77 people did so for rational reasons?
The legal definition of sanity doesn't have much to do with rationality. I'd guess that most Norwegians want him found sane so he'll be punished rather than merely treated. That's just a guess, since I'm not at all plugged into Norwegian culture.
posted by Edgewise at 1:21 PM on August 24, 2012
The legal definition of sanity doesn't have much to do with rationality. I'd guess that most Norwegians want him found sane so he'll be punished rather than merely treated. That's just a guess, since I'm not at all plugged into Norwegian culture.
posted by Edgewise at 1:21 PM on August 24, 2012
Presumably the "21 years" deal is simply because Norway has never experienced a crime of this magnitude before, and doesn't have penalties in place to cover it.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:21 PM on August 24, 2012
posted by KokuRyu at 1:21 PM on August 24, 2012
The distinction between sane and insane is so nebulous, but here we have to primarily ask whether he was consciously aware that what he did was malicious. The answer is yes. He was and remains aware that he committed this crime in part because of hatred for the victims of the crime. His purported political justifications are a side issue.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
He got what he wanted. He was worried he would be found mentally ill, because that would undermine his political project. So chalk this up as a win for him.
Whether he thinks it's a win or not shouldn't even enter into it. He's a danger to the safety of others, put him somewhere where he won't be. I don't see how any other factor could add into it.
A maximum of 21 years, wow. That must be the rehabilitation thing other countries are always going on about.
2bucksplus, you are hereby sentenced to read jaduncan's comment, a scant seven comments above yours.
posted by JHarris at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2012
Whether he thinks it's a win or not shouldn't even enter into it. He's a danger to the safety of others, put him somewhere where he won't be. I don't see how any other factor could add into it.
A maximum of 21 years, wow. That must be the rehabilitation thing other countries are always going on about.
2bucksplus, you are hereby sentenced to read jaduncan's comment, a scant seven comments above yours.
posted by JHarris at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2012
Strangely, most people in Norway seemed to also want him to be found sane, including many survivors and families of those killed. I can't quite understand that, honestly. Why would you want a court to find that a man who killed 77 people did so for rational reasons? Wouldn't it be more comforting (if comfort is what you want) to know that he was insane?
Insane people can be found sane again, leading to their release.
Given that Breivik secretly planned the killing of those 77 people for years, concealing both the plans and the means. It's not like it's very hard to make the 'is a threat' argument. If he was sane at the time of planning the crime, it's a lot harder to argue that he can be released as his mental state hasn't changed.
He's a political prisoner though; if he gives up his philosophy he gives up his status as a quasi-martyr. Without giving up violent racial struggle it's going to be hard to justify a finding that he's not a threat given that, again, 77 people already dead. He's going to live his life out behind bars.
posted by jaduncan at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Insane people can be found sane again, leading to their release.
Given that Breivik secretly planned the killing of those 77 people for years, concealing both the plans and the means. It's not like it's very hard to make the 'is a threat' argument. If he was sane at the time of planning the crime, it's a lot harder to argue that he can be released as his mental state hasn't changed.
He's a political prisoner though; if he gives up his philosophy he gives up his status as a quasi-martyr. Without giving up violent racial struggle it's going to be hard to justify a finding that he's not a threat given that, again, 77 people already dead. He's going to live his life out behind bars.
posted by jaduncan at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Some pictures here. More monastic penitentiary than correctional penitentiary, really.
Jesus, it looks like one of the furniture displays in an Ikea store.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:23 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Jesus, it looks like one of the furniture displays in an Ikea store.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:23 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Will we be hearing less or more of the whole 'Eurabia' crap as a result of this dude?
posted by colie at 1:23 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by colie at 1:23 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
You can be sane enough to participate in your own legal defense and understand the charges against you, and still be bug-fuck crazy.
You can indeed, in the United States. And speaking as someone who has worked on cases where defendants were not competent to stand trial, this is an important point I'd like more people to remember. If a person is determined not competent to stand trial, there is presumably something seriously wrong with him/her where potentially allowing a criminal to go unpunished might indeed be the lesser evil.
posted by cribcage at 1:23 PM on August 24, 2012 [4 favorites]
You can indeed, in the United States. And speaking as someone who has worked on cases where defendants were not competent to stand trial, this is an important point I'd like more people to remember. If a person is determined not competent to stand trial, there is presumably something seriously wrong with him/her where potentially allowing a criminal to go unpunished might indeed be the lesser evil.
posted by cribcage at 1:23 PM on August 24, 2012 [4 favorites]
How many years did he get for the neckbeard?
posted by Aizkolari at 1:27 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Aizkolari at 1:27 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
Jesus, it looks like one of the furniture displays in an Ikea store.
Nooooooooooo!
I'm sure we'll get a comment before long from someone who thinks there aren't enough rapists lurking around that place to his satisfaction.
posted by JHarris at 1:27 PM on August 24, 2012
Nooooooooooo!
I'm sure we'll get a comment before long from someone who thinks there aren't enough rapists lurking around that place to his satisfaction.
posted by JHarris at 1:27 PM on August 24, 2012
JHarris: "Whether he thinks it's a win or not shouldn't even enter into it. He's a danger to the safety of others, put him somewhere where he won't be. I don't see how any other factor could add into it."
There wouldn't actually be much practical difference in how he'd be treated or where he'd end up either way. The main difference would be that were he to be found insane, he'd be forced to receive treatment, which I think he probably needs. As it is, I don't think they can treat him against his will.
I'm skeptical to diagnosing people with mental disorders from a distance and based on media representations (although that hasn't stopped, well, pretty much everyone in Norway from doing so), but I think there's plenty of stuff in his personal history to at least suggest mental illness.
And I have read his manifesto (well, skimmed it), and it's pretty insane stuff. Not just political extremist insane stuff, but all the lies he's making up about himself, about his "organization", the uniforms and ranks...
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:28 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
There wouldn't actually be much practical difference in how he'd be treated or where he'd end up either way. The main difference would be that were he to be found insane, he'd be forced to receive treatment, which I think he probably needs. As it is, I don't think they can treat him against his will.
I'm skeptical to diagnosing people with mental disorders from a distance and based on media representations (although that hasn't stopped, well, pretty much everyone in Norway from doing so), but I think there's plenty of stuff in his personal history to at least suggest mental illness.
And I have read his manifesto (well, skimmed it), and it's pretty insane stuff. Not just political extremist insane stuff, but all the lies he's making up about himself, about his "organization", the uniforms and ranks...
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:28 PM on August 24, 2012 [1 favorite]
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