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August 27, 2012 7:16 AM Subscribe
Lupe Fiasco's new single Bitch Bad offers a powerful commentary on the roles of men, women and children in popular hip-hop culture.
Lupe is a rare breed of MC. Not only does he create alternative, socially conscious hip-hop that often expresses his anti-establishment views, but he also hits with charting-topping Billboard singles. Bonus video for 90s movie nostalgia.
Lupe is a rare breed of MC. Not only does he create alternative, socially conscious hip-hop that often expresses his anti-establishment views, but he also hits with charting-topping Billboard singles. Bonus video for 90s movie nostalgia.
That's a really powerful video. I'm glad to see that some artists are still using social conscious hip-hop as a way of informing their communities (and the world in general) about issues of importance. I really like how he's taking the music entertainment industry to task about the blatant misogyny found in so much popular hip-hop and how it's basically akin to a modern day minstrel show with big fake grills, thug life affectation and booty-popping video girls taking the place of blackface and buffoonish stepin fetchit behavior. That's a very powerful message and I think confronting people with the imagery of the hip-hop artist and video girl putting on and taking off black face is an excellent set of visual reinforcement to the underlying message.
I think there is some desire to move away from the cartoonish depictions of hip-hop artists within the artist community but some combination of factors reinforces the continual use of cartoonish stereotypes in so many hip-hop videos despite the fact that imagery had grown increasingly stale.
posted by vuron at 7:37 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think there is some desire to move away from the cartoonish depictions of hip-hop artists within the artist community but some combination of factors reinforces the continual use of cartoonish stereotypes in so many hip-hop videos despite the fact that imagery had grown increasingly stale.
posted by vuron at 7:37 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure I follow that logic at all dobbs. I think it's pretty clear that he's suggesting that the industry take responsibility for the negative impact of it's musical and video content because it creates a false impression over what sort of behavior should be modeled by the younger generation. By reducing females to sex objects the hip-hop community denigrates the role of women as central figures in the development of men and women.
posted by vuron at 7:43 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by vuron at 7:43 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
A writer at Spin already has taken issue with what he sees as one misogynistic view substituting for another. Lupe Fiasco had quite the fit about it on twitter last week, calling for his fans to launch a Spin boycott.
posted by mikeh at 7:45 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by mikeh at 7:45 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
The lyrics to the first song, germane to the discussion I think:
[Intro]posted by Doleful Creature at 7:47 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I say
Bitch bad, woman good, lady better
Hey, hey
Hey, hey
[Verse 1]
Now imagine there's a shorty, maybe five maybe four
Ridin' 'round with his mama listening to the radio
And a song comes on and a not far off from being born
Doesn't know the difference between right and wrong
Now I ain't trying to make it too complex
But let's just say shorty has an undeveloped context
About the perception of women these days
His mama sings along and this what she says
"Niggas, I'm a bad bitch, and I'm that bitch
Something that's far above average"
And maybe other rhyming words like cabbage and savage
And baby carriage and other things that match it
Couple of things are happenin' here
First he's relatin' the word "bitch" with his mama - comma
And because she's relatin' to herself, his most important source of help
And mental health, he may skew respect for dishonor
[Hook]
Bitch bad, woman good
Lady better, they misunderstood
(I'm killin' these bitches)
Uh, tell 'em
Bitch bad, woman good
Lady better, they misunderstood
They misunderstood
[Verse 2]
Yeah, now imagine a group of little girls nine through twelve
On the internet watchin' videos listenin' to songs by themselves
It doesn't really matter if they have parental clearance
They understand the internet better than their parents
Now being the internet, the content's probably uncensored
They're young, so they're malleable and probably unmentored
A complicated combination, maybe with no relevance
Until that intelligence meets their favorite singer's preference
"Bad bitches, bad bitches, bad bitches
That's all I want and all I like in life is bad bitches, bad bitches"
Now let's say that they less concerned with him
And more with the video girl acquiescent to his whims
Ah, the plot thickens
High heels, long hair, fat booty, slim
Reality check, I'm not trippin'
They don't see a paid actress, just what makes a bad bitch
[Hook]
[Verse 3]
Disclaimer: this rhymer, Lupe, is not usin' "bitch" as a lesson
But as a psychological weapon
To set in your mind and really mess with your conceptions
Discretions, reflections, it's clever misdirection
Cause, while I was rappin' they was growin' up fast
Nobody stepped in to ever slow 'em up, gasp
Sure enough, in this little world
The little boy meets one of those little girls
And he thinks she a bad bitch and she thinks she a bad bitch
He thinks disrespectfully, she thinks of that sexually
She got the wrong idea, he don't wanna fuck her
He think she's bad at bein' a bitch, like his mother
Momma never dressed like that, come out the house hot mess like that
Ass, titties, breasts like that, all out to impress like that
Just like that, you see the fruit of the confusion
He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion
Bad mean good to her, she really nice and smart
But bad mean bad to him, bitch don't play your part
But bitch still bad to her if you say it the wrong way
But she think she a bitch, what a double entendre
[Hook]
[Outro: MDMA]
Bitch bad, woman good, lady better
They misunderstood
You're misunderstood (I'm killin' these bitches)
Bitch bad, woman good, lady better
Greatest mother hoood (I'm killin' these bitches)
a man in a business suit intones that men would respect women if they were sexually modest and dressed conservatively... so, that's certainly a message we've heard before.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:51 AM on August 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by ennui.bz at 7:51 AM on August 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
Been loving Lupe's albums for a while now. Check "Lasers", get that album, go run for an hour, you'll feel great.
posted by Mikon6 at 7:58 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by Mikon6 at 7:58 AM on August 27, 2012
I'm not sure I follow that logic at all dobbs. I think it's pretty clear that he's suggesting that the industry take responsibility for the negative impact of it's musical and video content because it creates a false impression over what sort of behavior should be modeled by the younger generation. By reducing females to sex objects the hip-hop community denigrates the role of women as central figures in the development of men and women.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see him suggesting the industry change one iota. The focus on each section is on the women and how they behave and react to hip-hop: in the first part she is glorifying the word bitch while she sings along in front of her kid; the young woman in the second part is emulating the women in the videos because she's too young to give it proper context (as if there is any); in the third part the male who grew up with hip hop is smart enough to be disgusted with the woman not being smart enough to properly appreciate her cultural influences (how unique a viewpoint for a man to have!).
On preview, the SPIN writer pretty much nailed it. This is gender theory or women's studies as offered by a man who thinks, presumably because he's a man, that he knows what's best for women and he's gonna say it, goddamn it, and to hell with gender theory and women's studies laid out by much smarter people over decades previous. It's what a man thinks women need whether they're aware of it or not. In short: same old same old.
posted by dobbs at 8:03 AM on August 27, 2012 [9 favorites]
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see him suggesting the industry change one iota. The focus on each section is on the women and how they behave and react to hip-hop: in the first part she is glorifying the word bitch while she sings along in front of her kid; the young woman in the second part is emulating the women in the videos because she's too young to give it proper context (as if there is any); in the third part the male who grew up with hip hop is smart enough to be disgusted with the woman not being smart enough to properly appreciate her cultural influences (how unique a viewpoint for a man to have!).
On preview, the SPIN writer pretty much nailed it. This is gender theory or women's studies as offered by a man who thinks, presumably because he's a man, that he knows what's best for women and he's gonna say it, goddamn it, and to hell with gender theory and women's studies laid out by much smarter people over decades previous. It's what a man thinks women need whether they're aware of it or not. In short: same old same old.
posted by dobbs at 8:03 AM on August 27, 2012 [9 favorites]
Lupe Fiasco's new single Bitch Bad offers a powerful commentary on the roles of men, women and children in popular hip-hop culture.
And of race, performance of race, and minstrelsy in hip hop and the entertainment we consume.
posted by Rudy Gerner at 8:06 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
And of race, performance of race, and minstrelsy in hip hop and the entertainment we consume.
posted by Rudy Gerner at 8:06 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Hip hop is primarily focused on storytelling the polemic has been tried with varying degrees of success. This one probably tells you more about Lupe then it does about anything else. Thats not to say Lupe is bad Kick Push is a classic no doubt. This is too forced. I agree with Kaufman you have to have a goal beyond selling something(This might have such a goal, maybe) but at the end of the day I think your art has to be good.
posted by Rubbstone at 8:08 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by Rubbstone at 8:08 AM on August 27, 2012
And "Bitch bad. Woman good. Lady better." Um, no, you got the order wrong, dude.
It's not about being a bitch, it's about how females are described.
Anyhow, we're not exactly talking about the feminist reclamation of "bitch" in most hip-hop contexts, are we?
posted by hermitosis at 8:09 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's not about being a bitch, it's about how females are described.
Anyhow, we're not exactly talking about the feminist reclamation of "bitch" in most hip-hop contexts, are we?
posted by hermitosis at 8:09 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't see it as blaming the women, I also see it as pointing the finger at the depictions of women, and making the point that what we see as children influences our perceptions as adults. He's focusing on the women because they're the ones being most adversely affected, but he's also showing how the men's perspective gets warped as well.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:16 AM on August 27, 2012 [11 favorites]
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:16 AM on August 27, 2012 [11 favorites]
I'm mostly on board with the Spin analysis. Side note, in reading the comments on that one, I have just encountered more antisemitism than I've seen in...probably the rest of my life, combined. WTF?
posted by naoko at 8:16 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by naoko at 8:16 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
The focus on each section is on the women and how they behave and react to hip-hop: in the first part she is glorifying the word bitch while she sings along in front of her kid; the young woman in the second part is emulating the women in the videos because she's too young to give it proper context (as if there is any); in the third part the male who grew up with hip hop is smart enough to be disgusted with the woman not being smart enough to properly appreciate her cultural influences (how unique a viewpoint for a man to have!).
Wow, I didn't get that at all.
The first part, to me, is about how the entertainment we enjoy is not always fit for kids, and that glorifying it in front of them is a really good way to give them some wrong and dangerous associations. The woman's son grows up thinking "bitch" is a positive term for someone like his mother, who's presumably supportive and loving.
The second part is about pre-pubescent girls listening to a male artist singing about how what he likes is skinny girls with big asses. These girls on the edge of puberty start associating "bitches" with a certain body type and appearance that'll get them noticed by boys. The term, to them, is a sexual one.
The third part is about the collision between these two wildly divergent definitions of the same term. He says right there that the kids in question were growing up too fast and nobody bothered to step in and correct the mistaken assumptions they had.
This isn't about a dude in a suit arguing that women should be more appreciative of their culture. It's about how pop culture is really good at manipulating people and how nobody gives a damn about the effects of those manipulations.
posted by xbonesgt at 8:27 AM on August 27, 2012 [16 favorites]
Wow, I didn't get that at all.
The first part, to me, is about how the entertainment we enjoy is not always fit for kids, and that glorifying it in front of them is a really good way to give them some wrong and dangerous associations. The woman's son grows up thinking "bitch" is a positive term for someone like his mother, who's presumably supportive and loving.
The second part is about pre-pubescent girls listening to a male artist singing about how what he likes is skinny girls with big asses. These girls on the edge of puberty start associating "bitches" with a certain body type and appearance that'll get them noticed by boys. The term, to them, is a sexual one.
The third part is about the collision between these two wildly divergent definitions of the same term. He says right there that the kids in question were growing up too fast and nobody bothered to step in and correct the mistaken assumptions they had.
This isn't about a dude in a suit arguing that women should be more appreciative of their culture. It's about how pop culture is really good at manipulating people and how nobody gives a damn about the effects of those manipulations.
posted by xbonesgt at 8:27 AM on August 27, 2012 [16 favorites]
Bitch bad, woman good, lady better," which sounds sweet and all, but does any female want to be called "a lady"?
To random female walking in bicycle lane:
1. Look Bitch, this is a bike lane.
2. Look Woman, this is a bike lane.
3. Look Lady, this is a bike lane.
I'm going with door number 3.
posted by three blind mice at 8:29 AM on August 27, 2012 [10 favorites]
To random female walking in bicycle lane:
1. Look Bitch, this is a bike lane.
2. Look Woman, this is a bike lane.
3. Look Lady, this is a bike lane.
I'm going with door number 3.
posted by three blind mice at 8:29 AM on August 27, 2012 [10 favorites]
That Spin piece is excellent at taking Lupe to task for this lazy, simplistic button-pushing.
posted by RogerB at 8:36 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by RogerB at 8:36 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
I'm going with door number 3.
I'm going to guess you're not female.
I'm female, and I agree with three blind mice. The terms are ranked in order of the respect demonstrated to the subject.
Look, bitch - no respect, derogatory.
Look, woman: small respect but derogatory
Look, lady: still not a lot of respect, but no derogation.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:38 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm going to guess you're not female.
I'm female, and I agree with three blind mice. The terms are ranked in order of the respect demonstrated to the subject.
Look, bitch - no respect, derogatory.
Look, woman: small respect but derogatory
Look, lady: still not a lot of respect, but no derogation.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:38 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
My friend at Chicagoist is continuing the debate, with Lupe responding via twitter. Kinda fascinating. Personally, I cringe at the line "Bitch bad, woman good, lady better" no matter how well-meaning it is, and I'm glad I'm not the only one.
posted by naju at 8:40 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by naju at 8:40 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
To random female walking in bicycle lane Oh, I was just going to say, I don't like the word Lady, except in situations like when, "THE LADY didn't look and walked into the BIKE LANE, I had no other option, OFFICER!!"
posted by Mikon6 at 8:42 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by Mikon6 at 8:42 AM on August 27, 2012
There's a lot of baggage in the breakdown between saying "miss" and "ma'am" but I think both are better when addressing someone. Neither is relevant here, nor is addressing a stranger by the word, since the debate isn't about a form of address but a descriptive.
posted by mikeh at 8:42 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by mikeh at 8:42 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
SPIN PIECE was right on, unfortunately. Same thing happened to me after the HUNGER GAMES, thought it was great, until I read an article about how it wasn't.
posted by Mikon6 at 8:43 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by Mikon6 at 8:43 AM on August 27, 2012
I like saying, MIKE BAD, MICHAEL GOOD, CASH BETTER!
posted by Mikon6 at 8:44 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Mikon6 at 8:44 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm going with door number 3.
I'm going to guess you're not female.
I think it's worth pointing out that the author of the Spin article is not female, either. And for what it's worth, it seems to be open to individual preference, as this AskMe demonstrates (and as L'Estrange Fruit points out as well). And here's another one with more opinions on the matter.
The Spin piece is pretty good, but the line
The use of the word "bitch," sensitively deconstructed by Jay-Z on "99 Problems,"
Seems impressively myopic, to say the least.
posted by Doleful Creature at 8:49 AM on August 27, 2012
I'm going to guess you're not female.
I think it's worth pointing out that the author of the Spin article is not female, either. And for what it's worth, it seems to be open to individual preference, as this AskMe demonstrates (and as L'Estrange Fruit points out as well). And here's another one with more opinions on the matter.
The Spin piece is pretty good, but the line
The use of the word "bitch," sensitively deconstructed by Jay-Z on "99 Problems,"
Seems impressively myopic, to say the least.
posted by Doleful Creature at 8:49 AM on August 27, 2012
dobbs: “On preview, the SPIN writer pretty much nailed it. This is gender theory or women's studies as offered by a man who thinks, presumably because he's a man, that he knows what's best for women and he's gonna say it, goddamn it, and to hell with gender theory and women's studies laid out by much smarter people over decades previous. It's what a man thinks women need whether they're aware of it or not. In short: same old same old.”
This doesn't quite make sense to me. The song is about the repercussions of the fact that the word "bitch" is repeated constantly on the radio in popular hip hop songs. Are you saying that Lupe is condemning women for using that word on the radio? Because I don't think they're the ones doing it, at least not the vast majority of the time.
Also, I don't think it's unfair for a person to say that, when you use the word, it tends to make men disrespect women, and when women internalize it, it tends to make them disrespect themselves. I'd probably feel differently if Lupe were obviously taking a condemning tone about women who call themselves "bad bitches," but I didn't think he was. And that's kind of essential.
Also:
The Spin article is terrible. Just straight-up stupid. It's like the author went in hoping to misread the song.
posted by koeselitz at 8:50 AM on August 27, 2012 [8 favorites]
This doesn't quite make sense to me. The song is about the repercussions of the fact that the word "bitch" is repeated constantly on the radio in popular hip hop songs. Are you saying that Lupe is condemning women for using that word on the radio? Because I don't think they're the ones doing it, at least not the vast majority of the time.
Also, I don't think it's unfair for a person to say that, when you use the word, it tends to make men disrespect women, and when women internalize it, it tends to make them disrespect themselves. I'd probably feel differently if Lupe were obviously taking a condemning tone about women who call themselves "bad bitches," but I didn't think he was. And that's kind of essential.
Also:
The Spin article is terrible. Just straight-up stupid. It's like the author went in hoping to misread the song.
posted by koeselitz at 8:50 AM on August 27, 2012 [8 favorites]
Was I the only person that heard the refrain as an almost explicit repudiation of the scale of female worth?
I'm not joking, I mean I heard that and thought "for real, that whole bitch v. lady thing is such bullshit," but I guess most people are hearing it as a straightforward declarative?
And then at the end of the Spin piece, the article author describes "99 problems" as a "sensitive deconstruction" of the word bitch and like... that's the one where I heard it as just straight-up misogyny. I'm not alone in this either, Dessa at least seemed to hear it that way.
I also didn't think the young man we saw in the video was having his behavior endorsed? Like it seemed to me that we're supposed to be lamenting the fact that the kid is looking at all the clothes rather than looking at the person, putting the woman down because she's not like his mom without looking past and trying to see the person underneath.
Am I being too charitable here?
I mean yeah, I like Lupe Fiasco, I like his lyrics and production and sound, so that's what I'm going to lean to. But it really seemed to me like the song and video are trying to reject the whole hip hop gender presentation package. Not least by super-blatantly accusing that package of being plain ol' blackface, put on so that the white men that own the record labels can make a profit.
---
Regarding bike lane derail, why not "get out the damn bike lane!" or, if you want to be courteous, "yo you're in the bike lane!"
If we don't feel the need to gender our addresses to unknown men walking cluelessly in the bike lane, why would we gender our addresses to similar women?
posted by kavasa at 8:55 AM on August 27, 2012 [8 favorites]
I'm not joking, I mean I heard that and thought "for real, that whole bitch v. lady thing is such bullshit," but I guess most people are hearing it as a straightforward declarative?
And then at the end of the Spin piece, the article author describes "99 problems" as a "sensitive deconstruction" of the word bitch and like... that's the one where I heard it as just straight-up misogyny. I'm not alone in this either, Dessa at least seemed to hear it that way.
I also didn't think the young man we saw in the video was having his behavior endorsed? Like it seemed to me that we're supposed to be lamenting the fact that the kid is looking at all the clothes rather than looking at the person, putting the woman down because she's not like his mom without looking past and trying to see the person underneath.
Am I being too charitable here?
I mean yeah, I like Lupe Fiasco, I like his lyrics and production and sound, so that's what I'm going to lean to. But it really seemed to me like the song and video are trying to reject the whole hip hop gender presentation package. Not least by super-blatantly accusing that package of being plain ol' blackface, put on so that the white men that own the record labels can make a profit.
---
Regarding bike lane derail, why not "get out the damn bike lane!" or, if you want to be courteous, "yo you're in the bike lane!"
If we don't feel the need to gender our addresses to unknown men walking cluelessly in the bike lane, why would we gender our addresses to similar women?
posted by kavasa at 8:55 AM on August 27, 2012 [8 favorites]
I don't think there should (or ever will) be something wrong with identifying as a lady or casually identifying others as ladies.
Obviously it can be used in a dismissive or ironic sense, just like any elevated title (including "madam," which "ma'am" is short for). And not even just by sexist men.
Being a lady is whatever you make it. For some there are all sorts of conservative values wrapped up in the term, for others it's simply about reveling in feminine (traditional or otherwise) culture.
Oh, and on a barely related tangent, remember when Barbara Bush referred to Geraldine Ferarro as an "I can't say it, but it rhymes with 'rich'" during the 1984 election? Ferarro's priceless response was "Why is that nice old lady calling me a bitch?" (Bush was only in her early sixties at the time.)
posted by hermitosis at 8:55 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Obviously it can be used in a dismissive or ironic sense, just like any elevated title (including "madam," which "ma'am" is short for). And not even just by sexist men.
Being a lady is whatever you make it. For some there are all sorts of conservative values wrapped up in the term, for others it's simply about reveling in feminine (traditional or otherwise) culture.
Oh, and on a barely related tangent, remember when Barbara Bush referred to Geraldine Ferarro as an "I can't say it, but it rhymes with 'rich'" during the 1984 election? Ferarro's priceless response was "Why is that nice old lady calling me a bitch?" (Bush was only in her early sixties at the time.)
posted by hermitosis at 8:55 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
If we don't feel the need to gender our addresses to unknown men walking cluelessly in the bike lane, why would we gender our addresses to similar women?
What are you talking about? People are every bit as likely to say "Hey dude/fella/mister, get out of the damn bike lane!"
posted by hermitosis at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
What are you talking about? People are every bit as likely to say "Hey dude/fella/mister, get out of the damn bike lane!"
posted by hermitosis at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
I really like how he's taking the music entertainment industry to task about the blatant misogyny found in so much popular hip-hop and how it's basically akin to a modern day minstrel show with big fake grills, thug life affectation and booty-popping video girls taking the place of blackface and buffoonish stepin fetchit behavior.
Obviously hip-hop culture does have a lot of issues with misogyny and sexualized images of women, but I think the minstrelsy comparison is mostly off the mark. 50 Cent's image and performance are not buffoonery because it doesn't serve the social function of denigrating black people by portraying them in a purposely negative light. You can say that certain aspects of 50 Cent's persona are problematic but it's miles away from the straight up racist caricature of blackface. In fact if anything part of the problem with hip hop is that so much of its audience sees things like crime and misogyny as being respectable or cool, which is the exact opposite of the intended audience reaction to buffoonery. Tyler Perry probably gets way more criticism about minstrelsy because he does broad comic acting, but again I think it's unfair to just throw out the blackface label on anything that's even vaguely negative. It's the racial imagery equivalent of Godwinning.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:59 AM on August 27, 2012
Obviously hip-hop culture does have a lot of issues with misogyny and sexualized images of women, but I think the minstrelsy comparison is mostly off the mark. 50 Cent's image and performance are not buffoonery because it doesn't serve the social function of denigrating black people by portraying them in a purposely negative light. You can say that certain aspects of 50 Cent's persona are problematic but it's miles away from the straight up racist caricature of blackface. In fact if anything part of the problem with hip hop is that so much of its audience sees things like crime and misogyny as being respectable or cool, which is the exact opposite of the intended audience reaction to buffoonery. Tyler Perry probably gets way more criticism about minstrelsy because he does broad comic acting, but again I think it's unfair to just throw out the blackface label on anything that's even vaguely negative. It's the racial imagery equivalent of Godwinning.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:59 AM on August 27, 2012
Personally, the bitch/lady/woman part was just meh (although "greatest motherhood" - uh...), but the part I found particularly cringey was where the boy is lecturing the girl on running around with her tits hanging out or whatever. Eek. Like kavasa points out, maybe he's not actually endorsing any of this, but that runs into this point made by the Chicagoist piece:
"There are some lines that are unclear: 'He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion.' If both the boy and girl are victims of culture, why is his victimhood a reality, but hers is an illusion?"
posted by naoko at 8:59 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
"There are some lines that are unclear: 'He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion.' If both the boy and girl are victims of culture, why is his victimhood a reality, but hers is an illusion?"
posted by naoko at 8:59 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
Ludacris has his own answer to the bike lane derail.
posted by desjardins at 9:00 AM on August 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 9:00 AM on August 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
If we don't feel the need to gender our addresses to unknown men walking cluelessly in the bike lane, why would we gender our addresses to similar women?
Don't we gender our responses to men in situations like that? I think in that situation I'd go with "hey man, you're in the bike lane" just like when I see someone drop something I say "Sir, you dropped your X" or "Ma'am/Miss you dropped your X."
I'm not saying the gendering would exist in a perfect world, but I think it's pretty common to gender your conversations with random people for both men and women; if nothing else, it makes it a little clearer who you're talking to.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:01 AM on August 27, 2012
Don't we gender our responses to men in situations like that? I think in that situation I'd go with "hey man, you're in the bike lane" just like when I see someone drop something I say "Sir, you dropped your X" or "Ma'am/Miss you dropped your X."
I'm not saying the gendering would exist in a perfect world, but I think it's pretty common to gender your conversations with random people for both men and women; if nothing else, it makes it a little clearer who you're talking to.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:01 AM on August 27, 2012
Yeah that Spin article is full of rage at backpack hip-hop, which might or might not be justified in some context but in this case seems to be a overblown response to the idea that criticisms of the imagery used in alot of hip-hop (thug life and booty popping action) might not be such a great thing for the greater community. I know some people like "keeping it real" and depicting what's going on in the community but that needs to be tempered with the realization that negative depictions of Hip-Hop culture can be internalized by the audience in all sorts of destructive ways.
Now personally I think the hook is the weakest part of this piece but not every hook written is going to be a stellar example of lyricism.
And if I'm going to be completely honest I think the video's use of the blackface as a way of criticizing the minstrel show aspects of many hip-hop video actually kinda overwhelms the song because it's such a sledgehammer approach and it confronts you viscerally in a way that the actual song content doesn't. They are complimentary messages in some ways but the use of one almost completely overwhelms the other.
posted by vuron at 9:03 AM on August 27, 2012
Now personally I think the hook is the weakest part of this piece but not every hook written is going to be a stellar example of lyricism.
And if I'm going to be completely honest I think the video's use of the blackface as a way of criticizing the minstrel show aspects of many hip-hop video actually kinda overwhelms the song because it's such a sledgehammer approach and it confronts you viscerally in a way that the actual song content doesn't. They are complimentary messages in some ways but the use of one almost completely overwhelms the other.
posted by vuron at 9:03 AM on August 27, 2012
Sure, but you don't need to. The original example was: "given these three possibilities, choose one" and that's not really how it works. Those three possibilities are not the only ones. That's all.
Also, I personally don't really say fella/mister ever and "dude" is unisex is my world. =x
Also also, more like bike lane derailleur am I right here folks ok I'll be here all week try the veal
Naoko - I saw that line as referring to the sources of the imagery. The young man is seeing a vision of his real mother; the young woman is seeing an image of the illusory women from videos.
posted by kavasa at 9:05 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
Also, I personally don't really say fella/mister ever and "dude" is unisex is my world. =x
Also also, more like bike lane derailleur am I right here folks ok I'll be here all week try the veal
Naoko - I saw that line as referring to the sources of the imagery. The young man is seeing a vision of his real mother; the young woman is seeing an image of the illusory women from videos.
posted by kavasa at 9:05 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
Anyway, I think the Spin article is accurate (insomuch as any subjective piece of criticism can be) and that the song is a really interesting and multi-layered commentary, some of which the Spin piece seems to be missing.
I agree. There are certainly clumsy elements in the song, but I think it's a good thing that it's out there. We need more conversation and awareness of the gender messages in hip hop, and the racial issues behind the mainstream success of hypersexual black music.
I don't think that Lupe is blaming women for their own mistreatment. To me, the song is telling the story of a man and a women who were both influenced by hip hop when they were too young to approach it with sophisticated awareness, and how the messages they heard have become part of their adult behavior. If it blames anyone, it blames the producers of "bad bitch" music.
However, Lupe seems to miss the fact that both women and men grow up watching those videos and also grow up seeing more positive examples of strong women, and both of them struggle with both sides of that Madonna/Whore dichotomy. In reality, many men grow up watching those videos and idolizing the men in them, and seeing their sexual success as something to emulate. When they encounter women like the women in the videos, they may feel disgust at how distant they are from "respectable" women, but they also may feel strong sexual attraction and a need to prove their own status by "possessing" them. Meanwhile, women feel competing pulls to be desirable and to be worthy of respect, and are likely to be the subject of vitriol no matter what choice they make about how to present themselves.
The way he sets it up, claiming that "He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion," does strike me misogynist. But I think that his larger message about thug life hip hop being a bad influence on young people and specifically on perceptions of women is true and valuable to have out there.
So it's complicated.
posted by bookish at 9:06 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I agree. There are certainly clumsy elements in the song, but I think it's a good thing that it's out there. We need more conversation and awareness of the gender messages in hip hop, and the racial issues behind the mainstream success of hypersexual black music.
I don't think that Lupe is blaming women for their own mistreatment. To me, the song is telling the story of a man and a women who were both influenced by hip hop when they were too young to approach it with sophisticated awareness, and how the messages they heard have become part of their adult behavior. If it blames anyone, it blames the producers of "bad bitch" music.
However, Lupe seems to miss the fact that both women and men grow up watching those videos and also grow up seeing more positive examples of strong women, and both of them struggle with both sides of that Madonna/Whore dichotomy. In reality, many men grow up watching those videos and idolizing the men in them, and seeing their sexual success as something to emulate. When they encounter women like the women in the videos, they may feel disgust at how distant they are from "respectable" women, but they also may feel strong sexual attraction and a need to prove their own status by "possessing" them. Meanwhile, women feel competing pulls to be desirable and to be worthy of respect, and are likely to be the subject of vitriol no matter what choice they make about how to present themselves.
The way he sets it up, claiming that "He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion," does strike me misogynist. But I think that his larger message about thug life hip hop being a bad influence on young people and specifically on perceptions of women is true and valuable to have out there.
So it's complicated.
posted by bookish at 9:06 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Am I being too charitable here?
Yeah, I think so. The song/video does absolutely nothing to signal that you're supposed to take it as this kind of roundabout, backhandedly ironic dismissal of the stuff its lyrics explicitly and straightforwardly endorse. And it's not like Lupe is ordinarily some kind of multilayered Nabokovian satirist in his other work — earnest straightforwardness is pretty much the only thing he ever does, so there's no reason to expect this to be any different. "He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion" is a straight-up endorsement of the point of view of the "little boy" in the potted morality play, whose mother taught him to look down "disrespectfully" on the "bad bitch" and her conformity to the video-within-a-video's parodic gender norms.
posted by RogerB at 9:06 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think so. The song/video does absolutely nothing to signal that you're supposed to take it as this kind of roundabout, backhandedly ironic dismissal of the stuff its lyrics explicitly and straightforwardly endorse. And it's not like Lupe is ordinarily some kind of multilayered Nabokovian satirist in his other work — earnest straightforwardness is pretty much the only thing he ever does, so there's no reason to expect this to be any different. "He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion" is a straight-up endorsement of the point of view of the "little boy" in the potted morality play, whose mother taught him to look down "disrespectfully" on the "bad bitch" and her conformity to the video-within-a-video's parodic gender norms.
posted by RogerB at 9:06 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Personally, I cringe at the line "Bitch bad, woman good, lady better" no matter how well-meaning it is
Capping the song off with "Greatest: motherhood" was the worst of it, IMO. It certainly does appear to be replacing one form of misogyny with another, suggesting that the best thing a woman can ever do is to have children.
Really, I generally like Lupe, but this song seems off. The Spin article isn't exactly stellar, but I think the suggestion that Lupe is "mansplaining" is spot on. (The track is also a bit weak musically, IMO, compared with what Lupe has put out in the past.)
posted by asnider at 9:10 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
Capping the song off with "Greatest: motherhood" was the worst of it, IMO. It certainly does appear to be replacing one form of misogyny with another, suggesting that the best thing a woman can ever do is to have children.
Really, I generally like Lupe, but this song seems off. The Spin article isn't exactly stellar, but I think the suggestion that Lupe is "mansplaining" is spot on. (The track is also a bit weak musically, IMO, compared with what Lupe has put out in the past.)
posted by asnider at 9:10 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
Also, I don't think it's unfair for a person to say that, when you use the word, it tends to make men disrespect women, and when women internalize it, it tends to make them disrespect themselves.
I honestly don't think that's what the song's message is at all. The boy in the song completely misses any negative connotations of the word bitch and just associates it with his mom in a positive way. The girls in the story internalize it as being sexually available and dressing provocatively. The grown-up boy rejects the grown-up girl because she dresses provocatively and he finds her unattractive, he thinks she's a "bad bitch" because she's bad at being a "bitch" in the way that his mother was. And she's secretly smart and nice but is ruining it by adopting her "bad bitch" image. The man in the story does not think that being a bitch is disrespectful and in fact is disappointed by women who don't live up to his image of what a "bitch" is supposed to be, and the woman doesn't disrespect herself unless you consider adopting a "bad bitch" image to be inherently a sign of lack of self-respect.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:13 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
I honestly don't think that's what the song's message is at all. The boy in the song completely misses any negative connotations of the word bitch and just associates it with his mom in a positive way. The girls in the story internalize it as being sexually available and dressing provocatively. The grown-up boy rejects the grown-up girl because she dresses provocatively and he finds her unattractive, he thinks she's a "bad bitch" because she's bad at being a "bitch" in the way that his mother was. And she's secretly smart and nice but is ruining it by adopting her "bad bitch" image. The man in the story does not think that being a bitch is disrespectful and in fact is disappointed by women who don't live up to his image of what a "bitch" is supposed to be, and the woman doesn't disrespect herself unless you consider adopting a "bad bitch" image to be inherently a sign of lack of self-respect.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:13 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
naju: “My friend at Chicagoist is continuing the debate, with Lupe responding via twitter. Kinda fascinating. Personally, I cringe at the line ‘Bitch bad, woman good, lady better’ no matter how well-meaning it is, and I'm glad I'm not the only one.”
The "I'm killin' these bitches" part was worse. And unnecessary, and confusing. I want to like this, and Lupe's trying, but he's still stuck on the cusp of the dark ages on this one. Sigh.
posted by koeselitz at 9:13 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
The "I'm killin' these bitches" part was worse. And unnecessary, and confusing. I want to like this, and Lupe's trying, but he's still stuck on the cusp of the dark ages on this one. Sigh.
posted by koeselitz at 9:13 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
"He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion" is a straight-up endorsement of the point of view of the "little boy" in the potted morality play, whose mother taught him to look down "disrespectfully" on the "bad bitch" and her conformity to the video-within-a-video's parodic gender norms.
I don't know. The reality/illusion dynamic could be referring specifically to his own perception. He's in the reality of how he actually perceives women; she's caught in the illusion of how she thinks he perceives women (based on the messages that she was receiving as a tween).
In that case, the third verse isn't necessarily endorsing either side, so much as it's showing how the vastly different experiences of the first and second lead to different thought processes later on.
posted by graphnerd at 9:15 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I don't know. The reality/illusion dynamic could be referring specifically to his own perception. He's in the reality of how he actually perceives women; she's caught in the illusion of how she thinks he perceives women (based on the messages that she was receiving as a tween).
In that case, the third verse isn't necessarily endorsing either side, so much as it's showing how the vastly different experiences of the first and second lead to different thought processes later on.
posted by graphnerd at 9:15 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
The way he sets it up, claiming that "He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion," does strike me misogynist.
My reading of that like is that he's caught up in the image of his mother, who was a real person and shapes his view of what a desirable woman is. Whereas the woman in the story is caught up in the images from hip-hop videos, which are fake fantasies being portrayed by actors and don't represent actual people in real life.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:16 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
My reading of that like is that he's caught up in the image of his mother, who was a real person and shapes his view of what a desirable woman is. Whereas the woman in the story is caught up in the images from hip-hop videos, which are fake fantasies being portrayed by actors and don't represent actual people in real life.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:16 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
but I think the minstrelsy comparison is mostly off the mark [...] doesn't serve the social function of denigrating black people by portraying them in a purposely negative light.
But as it applies to the women, where blackface = "bitch" and all the implications thereof, I thought it was quite apt.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 9:16 AM on August 27, 2012
But as it applies to the women, where blackface = "bitch" and all the implications thereof, I thought it was quite apt.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 9:16 AM on August 27, 2012
Whitesplaining.
posted by blue t-shirt at 9:18 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by blue t-shirt at 9:18 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
You know what though? Whatever interpretational side we're on about this video, look at how it's got us talking about the issues. It's at least succeeded in making some issues visible to people who never necessarily thought about the casual ingestion of negative stereotypes and how it can affect your worldview.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 9:21 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 9:21 AM on August 27, 2012
And then at the end of the Spin piece, the article author describes "99 problems" as a "sensitive deconstruction" of the word bitch and like... that's the one where I heard it as just straight-up misogyny. I'm not alone in this either, Dessa yt at least seemed to hear it that way.
I think that the "bitch" in "99 Problems" is a reference to a police dog (ie, he doesn't have to worry about a dog searching his car because he either isn't carrying drugs or has them hidden well enough to not worry about it).
Sorry for the derail.
posted by graphnerd at 9:22 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
I think that the "bitch" in "99 Problems" is a reference to a police dog (ie, he doesn't have to worry about a dog searching his car because he either isn't carrying drugs or has them hidden well enough to not worry about it).
Sorry for the derail.
posted by graphnerd at 9:22 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
The thing that bothers me is that, surely, the boy and the girls are all exposed to the same rap music and videos as they're growing up. But for the boy the major influence is not the song he's hearing but his mother's reaction to it - so he takes "bitch" to mean strong, independent woman.
The girls on the other hand, take the writhing hoe as their role model and not their own mothers, who we would have to presume are just as "strong and independent" as the boy's mother.
So why are the girls easily manipulated by media while the boy is apparently clear sighted enough to resist it? Why wouldn't he grow up wanting to be the cheap 50-cent knockoff who gets to use all the subservient bitches?
Indeed this seems to me to be more in keeping with the point of the video, and so I'm not convinced the song and video manage to maintain their own internal logic. And isn't that wannabe thug guy who can't relate to women except as disposable sex objects really more the problem than guys who are just disappointed that they can't find girls as "strong and independent" as their mothers?
posted by Naberius at 9:27 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
The girls on the other hand, take the writhing hoe as their role model and not their own mothers, who we would have to presume are just as "strong and independent" as the boy's mother.
So why are the girls easily manipulated by media while the boy is apparently clear sighted enough to resist it? Why wouldn't he grow up wanting to be the cheap 50-cent knockoff who gets to use all the subservient bitches?
Indeed this seems to me to be more in keeping with the point of the video, and so I'm not convinced the song and video manage to maintain their own internal logic. And isn't that wannabe thug guy who can't relate to women except as disposable sex objects really more the problem than guys who are just disappointed that they can't find girls as "strong and independent" as their mothers?
posted by Naberius at 9:27 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
kavasa: “And then at the end of the Spin piece, the article author describes ‘99 problems’ as a "sensitive deconstruction" of the word bitch and like... that's the one where I heard it as just straight-up misogyny. I'm not alone in this either, Dessa at least seemed to hear it that way.”
graphnerd: “I think that the ‘bitch’ in ‘99 Problems’ is a reference to a police dog (ie, he doesn't have to worry about a dog searching his car because he either isn't carrying drugs or has them hidden well enough to not worry about it).”
This is certainly true. The lyrics make it clear that the "bitch" is the dog, not a woman. But that actually bothers me a lot anyway; this song is always held up as some kind of subtle thing, and guys are always saying "ha, so it's not misogynist! so there!" – but really the "bitch" in the chorus is just there as a winking thing, like "look at me, I got away with saying a slur!" like when people say "faggot" but are referring to a bundle of sticks jokingly but really they wanted a reason to say the word "faggot" because they think slurs are hilarious.
Really, it's a dumb song. And it's not a "sensitive deconstruction" in any way. I can't believe anybody would seriously suggest that, but here we are.
posted by koeselitz at 9:30 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
graphnerd: “I think that the ‘bitch’ in ‘99 Problems’ is a reference to a police dog (ie, he doesn't have to worry about a dog searching his car because he either isn't carrying drugs or has them hidden well enough to not worry about it).”
This is certainly true. The lyrics make it clear that the "bitch" is the dog, not a woman. But that actually bothers me a lot anyway; this song is always held up as some kind of subtle thing, and guys are always saying "ha, so it's not misogynist! so there!" – but really the "bitch" in the chorus is just there as a winking thing, like "look at me, I got away with saying a slur!" like when people say "faggot" but are referring to a bundle of sticks jokingly but really they wanted a reason to say the word "faggot" because they think slurs are hilarious.
Really, it's a dumb song. And it's not a "sensitive deconstruction" in any way. I can't believe anybody would seriously suggest that, but here we are.
posted by koeselitz at 9:30 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
But as it applies to the women, where blackface = "bitch" and all the implications thereof, I thought it was quite apt.
Why so much focus on the 50 Cent character then? He wears a racist caricature figure around his neck and whatnot, which to me at least seems to be clearly focusing on a more straight-forward accusation of normal racial blackface than metaphorical misogynist blackface. Also none of the lyrics seem to be related to that aspect of the video so it seems pretty disconnected from the song.
I think that the "bitch" in "99 Problems" is a reference to a police dog (ie, he doesn't have to worry about a dog searching his car because he either isn't carrying drugs or has them hidden well enough to not worry about it).
Yes Jay Z has clarified publicly that each of the verses plays off of a different meaning of the word bitch (a complaint, a police dog, and a male coward) none of which refer to a woman. The "having girl problems" line is from the original Ice-T version which is entirely about women.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:32 AM on August 27, 2012
Why so much focus on the 50 Cent character then? He wears a racist caricature figure around his neck and whatnot, which to me at least seems to be clearly focusing on a more straight-forward accusation of normal racial blackface than metaphorical misogynist blackface. Also none of the lyrics seem to be related to that aspect of the video so it seems pretty disconnected from the song.
I think that the "bitch" in "99 Problems" is a reference to a police dog (ie, he doesn't have to worry about a dog searching his car because he either isn't carrying drugs or has them hidden well enough to not worry about it).
Yes Jay Z has clarified publicly that each of the verses plays off of a different meaning of the word bitch (a complaint, a police dog, and a male coward) none of which refer to a woman. The "having girl problems" line is from the original Ice-T version which is entirely about women.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:32 AM on August 27, 2012
Whitesplaining.
Is this really a fair comment? (Honestly, I'm asking.) Hip hop culture is not synonymous with black culture. It was (is often still is) a culture/art form of the disenfranchised. While this is strongly associated with race, especially in the US, this doesn't exclude white people from being actively involved with hip hop culture.
I'll acknowledge that white criticism of hip hop can be problematic if it's coming from someone who isn't associated with/doesn't understand the culture, but it's not automatically a "whitesplaining" moment.
posted by asnider at 9:33 AM on August 27, 2012
Is this really a fair comment? (Honestly, I'm asking.) Hip hop culture is not synonymous with black culture. It was (is often still is) a culture/art form of the disenfranchised. While this is strongly associated with race, especially in the US, this doesn't exclude white people from being actively involved with hip hop culture.
I'll acknowledge that white criticism of hip hop can be problematic if it's coming from someone who isn't associated with/doesn't understand the culture, but it's not automatically a "whitesplaining" moment.
posted by asnider at 9:33 AM on August 27, 2012
I think it's also worth pointing out the Lupe Fiasco identifies as Muslim and that his religious experience may inform his lyrics and his intent. I'm no expert in Islam, but if it shares any similarity to Christianity, I'm guessing motherhood is is kind of a big deal. This wikipedia article on gender roles in Islam seems to indicate the high status of motherhood as a gender role.
So is it a perfect takedown of misogyny in hip-hop? Definitely not, but it's not the worst springboard ever and as L'Estrange Fruit points it it's got us talking about it so that's a good thing.
Feminism is hard. Poetry is hard, too. These are difficult issues to unpack, and doing so in a hip-hop song is no easy task. Doing so while being male is equally fraught with peril. Doesn't help that Lupe is male, even with the best intentions you can only say so much about women if you yourself are not a woman. You just don't have the right set of personal experiences to speak with much authority. But E for effort! Now let's keep the ball rolling and maybe some female hip-hop artists will offer improvements to the conversation. Actually, you know, this Salt'n'Pepa song ["None of your business"] from 1993 ain't a bad start.
And isn't that wannabe thug guy who can't relate to women except as disposable sex objects really more the problem than guys who are just disappointed that they can't find girls as "strong and independent" as their mothers?
The really big problem, I think, is that they're the same guy. I'm white so maybe it's different, but I suspect not, considering that my wife's brothers (also white) are huge hip-hop fans: this is exactly how they view and treat women. It's depressing.
posted by Doleful Creature at 9:38 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
So is it a perfect takedown of misogyny in hip-hop? Definitely not, but it's not the worst springboard ever and as L'Estrange Fruit points it it's got us talking about it so that's a good thing.
Feminism is hard. Poetry is hard, too. These are difficult issues to unpack, and doing so in a hip-hop song is no easy task. Doing so while being male is equally fraught with peril. Doesn't help that Lupe is male, even with the best intentions you can only say so much about women if you yourself are not a woman. You just don't have the right set of personal experiences to speak with much authority. But E for effort! Now let's keep the ball rolling and maybe some female hip-hop artists will offer improvements to the conversation. Actually, you know, this Salt'n'Pepa song ["None of your business"] from 1993 ain't a bad start.
And isn't that wannabe thug guy who can't relate to women except as disposable sex objects really more the problem than guys who are just disappointed that they can't find girls as "strong and independent" as their mothers?
The really big problem, I think, is that they're the same guy. I'm white so maybe it's different, but I suspect not, considering that my wife's brothers (also white) are huge hip-hop fans: this is exactly how they view and treat women. It's depressing.
posted by Doleful Creature at 9:38 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
We constantly give Lil B the most charitable interpretation imaginable, that his songs are some sort of feminist performance art. I don't think this song requires as much mental gymnastics to be seen as at least a step in a positive direction.
This is certainly true. The lyrics make it clear that the "bitch" is the dog, not a woman
I agree that the song has an element of "lol you are the real sexist, didn't you even listen to the lyics" but really, he is making that point. I know it isn't comforting but a good 1/2 the times the word bitch is used in rap songs it isn't refering to women.
Take the refrain, "I'm killin these bitches" the the Lupe Fisaco song. Of course we could take it as a Lil B style invocation of a rap trope and saritical refutation. But we could also take it to mean that he is refering to the men he is condeming in the song. The men who refer to women as bitches are the bitches he is killing.
I'm sure his mom probably approves of this, so maybe that is some silver lining for him.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:42 AM on August 27, 2012
This is certainly true. The lyrics make it clear that the "bitch" is the dog, not a woman
I agree that the song has an element of "lol you are the real sexist, didn't you even listen to the lyics" but really, he is making that point. I know it isn't comforting but a good 1/2 the times the word bitch is used in rap songs it isn't refering to women.
Take the refrain, "I'm killin these bitches" the the Lupe Fisaco song. Of course we could take it as a Lil B style invocation of a rap trope and saritical refutation. But we could also take it to mean that he is refering to the men he is condeming in the song. The men who refer to women as bitches are the bitches he is killing.
I'm sure his mom probably approves of this, so maybe that is some silver lining for him.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:42 AM on August 27, 2012
But within the context of this video it's pretty clearly Lupe talking about a problem that Hip-Hop culture creates within the African-American community. He doesn't have a white hip-hop fan in the video, indeed the only white character is the largely anonymous promoter at the beginning who is getting rich off of hip-hop (which is no doubt a reference to the music industry itself).
So he's clearly talking about how he thinks that by perpetuating a stereotype in video after video hip-hop artists are sending a confused message to the African-American community that reinforces negative gender relations.
This is clearly not about reclaiming a word (although certainly some artists want to do that) but presenting the idea that hip-hop artists have a duty to their community to be positive role-models rather than just cashing in for the money.
posted by vuron at 9:43 AM on August 27, 2012
So he's clearly talking about how he thinks that by perpetuating a stereotype in video after video hip-hop artists are sending a confused message to the African-American community that reinforces negative gender relations.
This is clearly not about reclaiming a word (although certainly some artists want to do that) but presenting the idea that hip-hop artists have a duty to their community to be positive role-models rather than just cashing in for the money.
posted by vuron at 9:43 AM on August 27, 2012
When the two meet, he think she's not a "bad bitch" (strong, worthy of respect) like his mother, she's just disrespectful and buying into the illusion that she sees on TV. She think she's a "bad bitch" like what she saw on TV.
So he can't get over the 'reality' he sees that she's just emulating some BS rap star's dream, when she's actually really nice and smart. She can't get over the 'illusion' she sees that men want garish rap star fantasy. Neither of them are seeing the full view - only the narrator Lupe can connect all the pieces of the misunderstanding.
Things get muddled with the blackface, the 'motherhood is greatest', the 'lady better' (all of which suggests special female worship is better than just treating women the same as men). Lupe seems to be endorsing the man's perspective on this one, that dressing in certain ways is buying into an illusion and a form of minstrelsy, and denying the essential Strong Female Motherhood Respectable Lady persona that all women should aspire to, in his view. This is why it's problematic - he really does endorse the 'reality' view that you should see through the web of lies of rap videos. So the boy and the girl both have skewed perspectives, but Lupe seems to be siding with the boy more than the girl, ultimately.
posted by naju at 9:43 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
So he can't get over the 'reality' he sees that she's just emulating some BS rap star's dream, when she's actually really nice and smart. She can't get over the 'illusion' she sees that men want garish rap star fantasy. Neither of them are seeing the full view - only the narrator Lupe can connect all the pieces of the misunderstanding.
Things get muddled with the blackface, the 'motherhood is greatest', the 'lady better' (all of which suggests special female worship is better than just treating women the same as men). Lupe seems to be endorsing the man's perspective on this one, that dressing in certain ways is buying into an illusion and a form of minstrelsy, and denying the essential Strong Female Motherhood Respectable Lady persona that all women should aspire to, in his view. This is why it's problematic - he really does endorse the 'reality' view that you should see through the web of lies of rap videos. So the boy and the girl both have skewed perspectives, but Lupe seems to be siding with the boy more than the girl, ultimately.
posted by naju at 9:43 AM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
But we could also take it to mean that he is refering to the men he is condeming in the song. The men who refer to women as bitches are the bitches he is killing.
Calling a man a "bitch" or a "pussy" is still misogynistic.
posted by asnider at 9:57 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
Calling a man a "bitch" or a "pussy" is still misogynistic.
posted by asnider at 9:57 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
illiterate white people expressing Concerns about hip hop: a matryoshka doll of hilarious racism
why do you even think you get to be part of the conversation
posted by Ictus at 9:58 AM on August 27, 2012
why do you even think you get to be part of the conversation
posted by Ictus at 9:58 AM on August 27, 2012
Calling a man a "bitch" or a "pussy" is still misogynistic.
Indeed, it is intended as a slur on masculinity, e.g. you're no man, you're a weak woman. Derogative as the implication is that female is lesser than male and thus a diminuation of the man.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 9:59 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Indeed, it is intended as a slur on masculinity, e.g. you're no man, you're a weak woman. Derogative as the implication is that female is lesser than male and thus a diminuation of the man.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 9:59 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
While his video was certainly directed as hip-hop culture, the message about negative influences on the perception of women hit me right in the gut. The message transcends race imo.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 10:01 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 10:01 AM on August 27, 2012
When the two meet, he think she's not a "bad bitch" (strong, worthy of respect) like his mother, she's just disrespectful and buying into the illusion that she sees on TV. She think she's a "bad bitch" like what she saw on TV.
So he can't get over the 'reality' he sees that she's just emulating some BS rap star's dream,
The lyrics do not mention the boy having any kind of awareness of the hip hop video persona that the girls emulate though. From the lyrics:
The little boy meets one of those little girls
This is the boy that associates the word "bitch" with his mother in a positive way, and the girl who sees the "bad bitch" imagery as being positive.
And he thinks she a bad bitch and she thinks she a bad bitch
This is wordplay, he's using bad bitch to mean two different things here, a poor facsimile of the positive "bitch" image, and an earnest appropriation of the "bad bitch" image.
He thinks disrespectfully, she thinks of that sexually
She got the wrong idea, he don't wanna fuck her
He think she's bad at bein' a bitch, like his mother
This is clarifying the word play above that he thinks she's "bad at bein' a bitch", i.e. not living up to the image of his mother, and that her adoption of the "bad bitch" persona isn't actually attractive to him like she would want it to be.
Momma never dressed like that, come out the house hot mess like that
Ass, titties, breasts like that, all out to impress like that
Just like that, you see the fruit of the confusion
He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion
Again this is clearly still talking about the fact that he's comparing everything to his mother, and she's basing everything on the imagery she saw in hip hop videos.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:05 AM on August 27, 2012
So he can't get over the 'reality' he sees that she's just emulating some BS rap star's dream,
The lyrics do not mention the boy having any kind of awareness of the hip hop video persona that the girls emulate though. From the lyrics:
The little boy meets one of those little girls
This is the boy that associates the word "bitch" with his mother in a positive way, and the girl who sees the "bad bitch" imagery as being positive.
And he thinks she a bad bitch and she thinks she a bad bitch
This is wordplay, he's using bad bitch to mean two different things here, a poor facsimile of the positive "bitch" image, and an earnest appropriation of the "bad bitch" image.
He thinks disrespectfully, she thinks of that sexually
She got the wrong idea, he don't wanna fuck her
He think she's bad at bein' a bitch, like his mother
This is clarifying the word play above that he thinks she's "bad at bein' a bitch", i.e. not living up to the image of his mother, and that her adoption of the "bad bitch" persona isn't actually attractive to him like she would want it to be.
Momma never dressed like that, come out the house hot mess like that
Ass, titties, breasts like that, all out to impress like that
Just like that, you see the fruit of the confusion
He caught in a reality, she caught in an illusion
Again this is clearly still talking about the fact that he's comparing everything to his mother, and she's basing everything on the imagery she saw in hip hop videos.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:05 AM on August 27, 2012
So the boy and the girl both have skewed perspectives, but Lupe seems to be siding with the boy more than the girl, ultimately.
I'm not so sure. We see the mother, and we see the rap video girl who Lupe makes a point to say is an actress making money, albiet via a form of minstrelsy (an interesting point is that this is no longer about segregation era mammy archetype, but now it is a form of black on black blackface where african americans act out thug and bitch archetypes for a black audience)
So we have a strong positive mother figure and a woman who is capable of supporting herself. We have a boy and a rapper (who are the same person) who seem outright clueless, not able to navigate any of this.
Calling a man a "bitch" or a "pussy" is still misogynistic.
Derogative as the implication is that female is lesser
But he just got through saying women aren't bitches.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:07 AM on August 27, 2012
I'm not so sure. We see the mother, and we see the rap video girl who Lupe makes a point to say is an actress making money, albiet via a form of minstrelsy (an interesting point is that this is no longer about segregation era mammy archetype, but now it is a form of black on black blackface where african americans act out thug and bitch archetypes for a black audience)
So we have a strong positive mother figure and a woman who is capable of supporting herself. We have a boy and a rapper (who are the same person) who seem outright clueless, not able to navigate any of this.
Calling a man a "bitch" or a "pussy" is still misogynistic.
Derogative as the implication is that female is lesser
But he just got through saying women aren't bitches.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:07 AM on August 27, 2012
> if it's coming from someone who isn't associated with/doesn't understand the culture
*cough*
posted by blue t-shirt at 10:07 AM on August 27, 2012
*cough*
posted by blue t-shirt at 10:07 AM on August 27, 2012
*cough*
Which...yeah...I think I'm going to withdraw my previous comment and go hide in the corner.
So we have a strong positive mother figure and a woman who is capable of supporting herself. We have a boy and a rapper (who are the same person) who seem outright clueless, not able to navigate any of this.
But the girl that the boy meets isn't the actress from the video. She's simply emulating her. Unless I've overlooked something, the lyrics never claim that she's an actress making money by acting this way.
posted by asnider at 10:14 AM on August 27, 2012
Which...yeah...I think I'm going to withdraw my previous comment and go hide in the corner.
So we have a strong positive mother figure and a woman who is capable of supporting herself. We have a boy and a rapper (who are the same person) who seem outright clueless, not able to navigate any of this.
But the girl that the boy meets isn't the actress from the video. She's simply emulating her. Unless I've overlooked something, the lyrics never claim that she's an actress making money by acting this way.
posted by asnider at 10:14 AM on August 27, 2012
If we don't feel the need to gender our addresses to unknown men walking cluelessly in the bike lane, why would we gender our addresses to similar women?
We do, though.
"Look, guy, this is the bike lane!"
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:20 AM on August 27, 2012
We do, though.
"Look, guy, this is the bike lane!"
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:20 AM on August 27, 2012
Hip-hop culture is simultaneously 1) black culture, and 2) mainstream American culture, and has been for decades. Lupe probably has as many white fans as black fans, or more. Of course white people should feel free to add their voices to discussions of hip-hop (while being sensitive to issues of race, of course, which is what should be happening regardless of topic.)
"Whitesplaining" would be more something along the lines of, say, the Kony 2012 thing where white people explained to Africans the Solution to an African problem they really knew nothing about - whereas in contrast it's just as likely that white people are hip-hop insiders as hip-hop outsiders.
posted by naju at 10:25 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
"Whitesplaining" would be more something along the lines of, say, the Kony 2012 thing where white people explained to Africans the Solution to an African problem they really knew nothing about - whereas in contrast it's just as likely that white people are hip-hop insiders as hip-hop outsiders.
posted by naju at 10:25 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
So young women shouldn't emulate the girls they see in rap videos, not because doing so might degrade or compromise them, but because that's not who young men want them to be?
I've always been on the fence around Lupe's music, but this song (especially the third verse conclusion and the closing reference to motherhood) really doesn't sit well with me.
posted by Muppetattack at 10:30 AM on August 27, 2012
I've always been on the fence around Lupe's music, but this song (especially the third verse conclusion and the closing reference to motherhood) really doesn't sit well with me.
posted by Muppetattack at 10:30 AM on August 27, 2012
Just a quick observation, but to me his "reality" vs. her "illusion" stems from the fact that his definition of a "bad bitch" is based on his real-world mother, while her definition is based on music video imagery: "They don't see a paid actress, just what makes a bad bitch".
Also, don't overlook the fact that Lupe identifies at least two different meanings or valuations of "bitch" for each character, the "double entendre" (which, coupled with the rapper's aside that he is trying to "mess with your conceptions," makes it hazardous to read this at the surface level, even if "earnest straightforwardness is pretty much the only thing he ever does"). Both see a good and bad side to the "bitch" persona. I think for the narrator, this means that his feelings toward his mother are conflicted and not just straight-up mother/lady admiration.
posted by drlith at 10:33 AM on August 27, 2012
Also, don't overlook the fact that Lupe identifies at least two different meanings or valuations of "bitch" for each character, the "double entendre" (which, coupled with the rapper's aside that he is trying to "mess with your conceptions," makes it hazardous to read this at the surface level, even if "earnest straightforwardness is pretty much the only thing he ever does"). Both see a good and bad side to the "bitch" persona. I think for the narrator, this means that his feelings toward his mother are conflicted and not just straight-up mother/lady admiration.
posted by drlith at 10:33 AM on August 27, 2012
But the girl that the boy meets isn't the actress from the video
They are the same person, perpetuating a cycle. The little girl becomes the rap video woman. In a figurative sense the rap video woman is the little girl's mother, taking her values. She learns what it means to be a woman from an actress in a rap video. We could debate whether is is strong, or good, or bad, that they are able to support themselves by playing on stereotypes that some may not like. I'm not 100% sure Lupe is making any such a judgement here.
I;m going to think about it. On the plus side, the song is growing on me after listening to it a bunch of times.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:46 AM on August 27, 2012
They are the same person, perpetuating a cycle. The little girl becomes the rap video woman. In a figurative sense the rap video woman is the little girl's mother, taking her values. She learns what it means to be a woman from an actress in a rap video. We could debate whether is is strong, or good, or bad, that they are able to support themselves by playing on stereotypes that some may not like. I'm not 100% sure Lupe is making any such a judgement here.
I;m going to think about it. On the plus side, the song is growing on me after listening to it a bunch of times.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:46 AM on August 27, 2012
"Lady" can be used to smack down women sometimes. Remember the flap over Rep. Allen West saying that Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz was "not a Lady"?
Granted, Allen West isn't really a good example of use of the English language, but it has happened.
posted by Hollywood Upstairs Medical College at 10:47 AM on August 27, 2012
Granted, Allen West isn't really a good example of use of the English language, but it has happened.
posted by Hollywood Upstairs Medical College at 10:47 AM on August 27, 2012
Is it just me, or is this song musically just not that great? His flow is really awkward, in contrast to last year's Show Goes On, which had a strong message and a helluva lot of words, too, but where his flow was a lot better.
And boy, I really hope it's just that his message was muddled, because it really did seem to me that he was elevating the boy's perspective in Act 3 to "reality" and that boy was being extremely disrespectful.
Obviously hip-hop culture does have a lot of issues with misogyny and sexualized images of women, but I think the minstrelsy comparison is mostly off the mark. 50 Cent's image and performance are not buffoonery because it doesn't serve the social function of denigrating black people by portraying them in a purposely negative light. You can say that certain aspects of 50 Cent's persona are problematic but it's miles away from the straight up racist caricature of blackface. In fact if anything part of the problem with hip hop is that so much of its audience sees things like crime and misogyny as being respectable or cool, which is the exact opposite of the intended audience reaction to buffoonery.
I actually disagree with that, given that the majority of people who watch rap videos, buy albums, etc are white people, especially white teenagers. Artists like 50 Cent are marketing a particular image of black masculinity that plays into a lot of racist ideas about black men that go back a long time. So I do like what Lupe Fiasco is doing with that.
posted by lunasol at 11:11 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
And boy, I really hope it's just that his message was muddled, because it really did seem to me that he was elevating the boy's perspective in Act 3 to "reality" and that boy was being extremely disrespectful.
Obviously hip-hop culture does have a lot of issues with misogyny and sexualized images of women, but I think the minstrelsy comparison is mostly off the mark. 50 Cent's image and performance are not buffoonery because it doesn't serve the social function of denigrating black people by portraying them in a purposely negative light. You can say that certain aspects of 50 Cent's persona are problematic but it's miles away from the straight up racist caricature of blackface. In fact if anything part of the problem with hip hop is that so much of its audience sees things like crime and misogyny as being respectable or cool, which is the exact opposite of the intended audience reaction to buffoonery.
I actually disagree with that, given that the majority of people who watch rap videos, buy albums, etc are white people, especially white teenagers. Artists like 50 Cent are marketing a particular image of black masculinity that plays into a lot of racist ideas about black men that go back a long time. So I do like what Lupe Fiasco is doing with that.
posted by lunasol at 11:11 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
As a woman, I'm personally fine with "lady," but it might be just because I like sparkles and associate the word "woman" with earth tones and sandalwood. I tend to describe women as "women," though sometimes I use "ladies" collectively. How my girlfriends and I refer to each other (lovingly) is quite another matter entirely and does not translate well over the internet.
I don't mind the message here, though he certainly clunked mightily in several spots as a pop song. But I like Lupe Fiasco. "Kick, Push," referenced above, has long since acheived classic jam status at my house.
posted by thivaia at 11:14 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
I don't mind the message here, though he certainly clunked mightily in several spots as a pop song. But I like Lupe Fiasco. "Kick, Push," referenced above, has long since acheived classic jam status at my house.
posted by thivaia at 11:14 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
Does rapping not have to be in-time any more? I noticed Eminem's sense of rhythm being fairly defective some years ago, but this rapping is so incredibly out-of-time all the way through, it makes me think the rules have changed.
posted by w0mbat at 11:31 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by w0mbat at 11:31 AM on August 27, 2012
It is a form of syncopation.
You should check out modern r&b like Exit by R. Kelly shit is mindblowing as the music and singing seem to be just nodding acquaintances, parhaps from different songs on the same album, maybe. Also random interjections like "you got pretty teeth".
posted by Ad hominem at 11:51 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
You should check out modern r&b like Exit by R. Kelly shit is mindblowing as the music and singing seem to be just nodding acquaintances, parhaps from different songs on the same album, maybe. Also random interjections like "you got pretty teeth".
posted by Ad hominem at 11:51 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I actually disagree with that, given that the majority of people who watch rap videos, buy albums, etc are white people, especially white teenagers. Artists like 50 Cent are marketing a particular image of black masculinity that plays into a lot of racist ideas about black men that go back a long time.
I think there's a huge gap between the popular conception of black masculinity within hip hop playing into racial stereotypes, and blackface minstrelsy though. Nobody of any race found any aspirational qualities in blackface minstrels or "black buck" stereotypes, they were heavily othered strawmen to be laughed at or feared by the in-group. It's a fundamentally different thing when hip hop images have become mainstream and representative of what many people think to be stylish or cool. Again, I'm not saying that there are no problematic aspects to hip hop culture or imagery, but calling 50 Cent a blackface minstrel is at best an extreme oversimplification. You can call something bad without saying thats it's equivalent to something far worse.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:37 PM on August 27, 2012
I think there's a huge gap between the popular conception of black masculinity within hip hop playing into racial stereotypes, and blackface minstrelsy though. Nobody of any race found any aspirational qualities in blackface minstrels or "black buck" stereotypes, they were heavily othered strawmen to be laughed at or feared by the in-group. It's a fundamentally different thing when hip hop images have become mainstream and representative of what many people think to be stylish or cool. Again, I'm not saying that there are no problematic aspects to hip hop culture or imagery, but calling 50 Cent a blackface minstrel is at best an extreme oversimplification. You can call something bad without saying thats it's equivalent to something far worse.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:37 PM on August 27, 2012
Does rapping not have to be in-time any more? I noticed Eminem's sense of rhythm being fairly defective some years ago, but this rapping is so incredibly out-of-time all the way through, it makes me think the rules have changed.
It takes some getting used to, but yeah flows have changed. Eminem's flow changed after that Benzino battle, and after he stopped using drugs and started using that ridiculous voice. But when he did that verse for the B.E.T. cypher last year or whatever, there was no doubt that he still has 'it'.
But overall, yes flows have changed. You still have to be on beat, but in your own way. For me, back in the day the beat went and the rappers followed along. Now the style is the beat goes, you flow in your own way, and it ends up wrapping around the beat as opposed to following it. And that's probably not even a good example, but Joey Bada$$ is worth the click anyway.
As far as this song, it's decent. Lupe was never my favorite rapper but I like that he does what he does. I think most if not all the people commenting aren't the intended audience. It is a multilayered message and the different people it is directed at will get the criticism.
Lupe is not immortal technique. He actually gets played on MTV. I think the song is fine for what it is. It isn't mindblowing, but I definitely know people who need to see and understand this stuff.
It would have been great to locate the problem where it really lies - the owners and executives who shell out money to perpetuate this minstrel show, but I think that cuts off agency, because what is someone in Lupe's old neighborhood going to do with that? Go hang out in front of a media company and just yell at execs as they walk in? No. So it seems he took the route of first trying to get people to understand that these are damaging messages. Really the whole minstrel show is the larger representation of black people in all forms of media - television shows, films, music, commercials, and so on. Lupe knows that, but that would have been a bit much to pack into one video.
posted by cashman at 12:47 PM on August 27, 2012 [6 favorites]
burnmp3s: That's a good point - I agree about the aspirational aspect.
However, I think the thing is that old-time minstrel-ry wouldn't work these days because racial dynamics have changed. So I think it's interesting to say "what would a modern-day minstrel show look like?" It wouldn't look exactly like the minstrel shows of the 1920s, because cultural ideas about race are not the same as they were in the 1920s.
What is the role that the old minstrel shows played? It was partly to mock, but also to entertain through the reinforcement of heightened racial stereotypes, which is where the parallels to artists like 50 Cent come in.
posted by lunasol at 12:55 PM on August 27, 2012
However, I think the thing is that old-time minstrel-ry wouldn't work these days because racial dynamics have changed. So I think it's interesting to say "what would a modern-day minstrel show look like?" It wouldn't look exactly like the minstrel shows of the 1920s, because cultural ideas about race are not the same as they were in the 1920s.
What is the role that the old minstrel shows played? It was partly to mock, but also to entertain through the reinforcement of heightened racial stereotypes, which is where the parallels to artists like 50 Cent come in.
posted by lunasol at 12:55 PM on August 27, 2012
As far as this song, it's decent. Lupe was never my favorite rapper but I like that he does what he does.
I could not agree more. I never have understood the appeal Lupe holds for a lot of people, but I'm glad he's out there doing it.
Also, for what it's worth, the SPIN writer in question has a terrible and longstanding reputation for not really knowing much about rap and usually misunderstanding everything. I think there's definitely a really valid and important critique of this song and video out there, but I don't think that guy has it.
Also worth keeping in mind that this is a Gil Green video, and if his past work is any indication, it's entirely possible that there is either absolutely no real vision in the video beyond aesthetics, or that (more likely) the entire video concept comes straight from the mind of Lupe, with Green just making it all happen. Personally, I think the song is more interesting without the video getting in the way and muddling it up. DOubt I'll ever really feel the need to listen to the song or watch the video again, though.
Also, while we're on the subject of Lupe, his 9/11 "truther" thing is really weird (and, oddly enough, Sole of all people addressed it in this song), and probably explains more about the wild shit some of his fans tend to spout off about than anything else. Birds of a feather...
posted by broadway bill at 2:38 PM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
I could not agree more. I never have understood the appeal Lupe holds for a lot of people, but I'm glad he's out there doing it.
Also, for what it's worth, the SPIN writer in question has a terrible and longstanding reputation for not really knowing much about rap and usually misunderstanding everything. I think there's definitely a really valid and important critique of this song and video out there, but I don't think that guy has it.
Also worth keeping in mind that this is a Gil Green video, and if his past work is any indication, it's entirely possible that there is either absolutely no real vision in the video beyond aesthetics, or that (more likely) the entire video concept comes straight from the mind of Lupe, with Green just making it all happen. Personally, I think the song is more interesting without the video getting in the way and muddling it up. DOubt I'll ever really feel the need to listen to the song or watch the video again, though.
Also, while we're on the subject of Lupe, his 9/11 "truther" thing is really weird (and, oddly enough, Sole of all people addressed it in this song), and probably explains more about the wild shit some of his fans tend to spout off about than anything else. Birds of a feather...
posted by broadway bill at 2:38 PM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
cashman, I was waiting for you to chime in...
I definitely appreciate all the different viewpoints in this thread. I am a big fan of Lupe's work. I think this is far from his best song, but it's possibly his most provocative. It's not a perfect message, but it's an important one, and I think it's a valiant attempt at broaching the topic in 3 minutes. Mostly I appreciate how unique his music is How he can rhyme about Shit That Matters while remaining positive and achieving popular viability.
posted by gnutron at 3:16 PM on August 27, 2012
I definitely appreciate all the different viewpoints in this thread. I am a big fan of Lupe's work. I think this is far from his best song, but it's possibly his most provocative. It's not a perfect message, but it's an important one, and I think it's a valiant attempt at broaching the topic in 3 minutes. Mostly I appreciate how unique his music is How he can rhyme about Shit That Matters while remaining positive and achieving popular viability.
posted by gnutron at 3:16 PM on August 27, 2012
So the four year old boy hears his mom calling herself a bad bitch while singing along in the car, processes "bitch" as a sort of compliment ... and never hears the word used again until he meets our heroine ten years later, so he still thinks it's a nice word! Um, no.
posted by onlyconnect at 11:40 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by onlyconnect at 11:40 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in some time. I love making fun of when rappers try to kick science or drop knowledge in interviews, but this is just the most ridiculous thing I have experienced in some time. All that remains, I suppose, is to wait to find out what drugs Lupe took right before he did that. It's like PM Dawn mixed with a Prince impersonation mixed with the first time you made a video in college. What the hell did I just watch.
posted by cashman at 11:43 AM on September 10, 2012
posted by cashman at 11:43 AM on September 10, 2012
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And "Bitch bad. Woman good. Lady better." Um, no, you got the order wrong, dude.
posted by dobbs at 7:34 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]