Comments on: Living Under Drones

Living Under Drones

homunculus — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:09:50 -0800

Living Under Drones: Death, Injury and Trauma to Civilians From US Drone Practices in Pakistan. An extensive new study (PDF) by human rights lawyers from Stanford and NYU examines the impact of drone strikes on civilians in Pakistan, including the strategic effectiveness of the policy as well as the psychological impact on those living in constant fear that they might come under attack. [Via]

By: crapmatic

crapmatic — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:26:55 -0800

I've always thought it odd that the Military Times's forum's most active thread in the Air Force section was "Sensor Operator Retraining (1U0X1)". Having once been in the Air Force, I read the forum occasionally to see what life in the service is like these days, and I just ignored that particular thread whenever it came up because I was getting sick of seeing it and I was interested in other discussions. Now I see it's stacked up to 5830 replies and still going. Holy crap. The 1U0X1 description is here. I'm now wondering how extensive the drone operations are. Are hundreds of them airborne at any given moment? Man, I hope this stuff doesn't get turned against us domestically.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:42:22 -0800

Man, I hope this stuff doesn't get turned against us domestically. I don't think it could happen here, except as fiction. But I've been wrong before.

By: brennen

brennen — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:46:00 -0800

Man, I hope this stuff doesn't get turned against us domestically. I'm pretty sure that particular flying death robot has already left the barn. Every quasi-military law enforcement agency in the country is slavering over this shit, and they are in the process of getting it.

By: dubold

dubold — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:57:11 -0800

yeah, domestic drone usage is a "when", not "if" situation. Men, women and children are subjected to almost constant trauma – including fear of attack, severe anxiety, powerlessness, insomnia and high levels of stress – says a nine month investigation into CIA drone strikes in Pakistan by two top US university law schools. Dear Rest of the World: I'm really sorry. Seriously.

By: Phreesh

Phreesh — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:07:42 -0800

What's the deal with the Pakistan government? Are they receiving billions in aid in exchange for giving up their territorial rights? As a Canadian, I would be furious at my government if it allowed US drones in our airspace, allowed a foreign power to routinely spy on my fellow citizens and kill people without trial.

By: msalt

msalt — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:07:21 -0800

Phreesh: Drones AFAIK are limited to the FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas), such as North Waziristan, a largely lawless area with only marginal territorial control by the Pakistani government. The government is playing a complicated game, alternately using the US and the Taliban/Haqqanis/other jihadis to neutralize each other and help them fight India in Kashmir and elsewhere. Canada's government allowed a lot of US military monitoring etc. in its far north during the Cold War as a defense against the USSR; not an exact analogy but there's some similarity.

By: msalt

msalt — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:10:46 -0800

Interesting stuff but not hardly any kind of scholarly study. These groups explicitly engage students in activism and the study hand-picked 3 drone strikes where civilians were hurt; one of the attacks was from 2009. Is it news that military attacks (of any kind) result in death, injury, economic loss and fear?

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:01:52 -0800

These reports are based on the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, which has the most accurate drone reports. I don't know if they add much that BIA has already said. Phreesh: Drones AFAIK are limited to the FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas), such as North Waziristan, a largely lawless area with only marginal territorial control by the Pakistani government. The government is playing a complicated game, alternately using the US and the Taliban/Haqqanis/other jihadis to neutralize each other and help them fight India in Kashmir and elsewhere. These strikes have mostly been launched from Pakistani airbases with the full knowledge of Pakistan. It plays a double game with its people, allowing the strikes and then acting angry when public opinion boils over. Essentially Pakistan wants us to eliminate their Taliban and not attack the Afghan Taliban so that they will have a line on controlling Afghanistan. All sides give a little and get a little in terms of who they attack. Currently, the BIA lists the following as the numbers killed in Pakistan: Total US strikes: 346 Obama strikes: 294 Total reported killed: 2,570-3,337 Civilians reported killed: 474-884 Children reported killed: 176 Total reported injured: 1,232-1,366 These appear to be the most reliable numbers out there.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:33:39 -0800

Take Two Drones and Call Me in the Morning: The perils of our addiction to remote-controlled war.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:14:20 -0800

Drones Subject to GPS Spoofing, Privacy 'Abuses,' GAO Report Warns

By: Fuzzy Monster

Fuzzy Monster — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:28:21 -0800

The FAA has promised to open the U.S. skies to civilian drones by 2015 and has estimated that by 2020, there could be 30,000 of them aloft.

By: Golden Eternity

Golden Eternity — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:56:04 -0800

Pakistan drone attack love song racks up YouTube hits "My gaze is as fatal as a drone attack" The hit for singer Sitara Younis follows her success last year with another love ballad, which warns a besotted man to keep his distance: "Don't chase me, I'm an illusion, a suicide bomb." The paper said: "All in all, the war on terror in these tribal areas has not only become a part of their art, literature and cinema but even the Pashto tele-films, which are famous for vulgarity and Kalashnikov culture."

By: msalt

msalt — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:47:11 -0800

There was a story on NPR tonight about a battle among defense experts between their "drones" which were souped up versions of off-the-shelf RC aircraft. One guy protected his helicopter's rotors by putting them inside a big coil. The winner used radio jamming to ground his opponents.

By: justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow

justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:35:25 -0800

Canada's government allowed a lot of US military monitoring etc. in its far north during the Cold War as a defense against the USSR; not an exact analogy but there's some similarity. There's very little similarity between the idea of drone overflights spying on Canadian citizens without Canadian oversight and NORAD. NORAD is a reciprocal air defense arrangement. Canada and the United States swap radar data and plan to fight under joint command if either came under air attack. It's equitable; there are American officers based in Canada, but there are also Canadian officers based in the States. The second in command at Peterson Air Force Base/Cheyenne Mountain is Canadian (giving Canada access to the Stargate program). NORAD made more sense than most cold war arrangements from the perspective of both countries. The US gets an extra 4500 km of early warning buffer zone against possible attack from the north and Canada gets some degree of assurance that the US would help if the Russians got any more serious about planting their flag in Canadian territory. NORAD makes both countries stronger defensively in a way that does not threaten our neighbors, making a pointlessly destructive war less likely, which is why it still makes good sense as part of our alliance. NORAD does not spy on Canadian citizens, not unless you own your own four engine bomber.

By: coriolisdave

coriolisdave — Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:58:53 -0800

NORAD does not spy on Canadian citizens, not unless you own your own four engine bomber. So, just wonderin' you know, no particular reason... what if I do?

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:50:36 -0800

The Obama doctrine: Drones and just wars

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:23:10 -0800

Democracy Now interview with two of the authors: Study Finds U.S. Drone Strikes in Pakistan Miss Militant Targets and "Terrorize" Civilians

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:00:56 -0800

'Every Person Is Afraid Of The Drones: The Strike's Effect On Life In Pakistan', The Atlantic

By: msalt

msalt — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:38:14 -0800

That last Atlantic article is pretty ludicrous (and based entirely on the lead article of this post). Whatever you might say about the Pakistani tribal areas such as North and South Waziristan, the residents are fierce fighters who celebrate battle, courage and pride. The British could never control the area, and Pakistan's own army didn't enter some areas until this century because it was too dangerous. The idea that the residents are being emotionally destroyed by the fear that someone might shoot them is not only way off base, but probably deeply insulting to them.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:50:32 -0800

US Department of Homeland Security looking for (more than) a few good drones: DHS to test unmanned aircraft for variety of applications

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:12:14 -0800

Not Even the White House Knows the Drones' Body Count

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 07:23:59 -0800

Calling U.S. Drone Strikes 'Surgical' Is Orwellian Propaganda

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:04:12 -0800

Yemen's President Thinks Drones Are Smarter than Humans

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:05:13 -0800

Obama risks handing 'loaded gun' drone programme to Romney

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Tue, 02 Oct 2012 03:12:46 -0800

Reason: Something New To Worry About: Murderous, Autonomous Drones

By: homunculus

homunculus — Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:55:01 -0800

In happier drone news: Drones Help Conserve Sumatran Orangutans and Other Wildlife

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 09:46:23 -0800

My Other Prius Is A Drone bumper sticker

By: homunculus

homunculus — Fri, 05 Oct 2012 17:16:19 -0800

BBC: US drone war in Pakistan prompts fear and anger

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:32:31 -0800

Imran Khan Protest Convoy Against US Drones Heads toward Waziristan, Pakistan

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:22:39 -0800

Israel Downs Drone Over Its Airspace, Suspects Hezbollah

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:05:03 -0800

Deadlier Drones Are Coming: How smarter robot warplanes now in development could attack targets on their own.

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 06:32:41 -0800

Homeland Security Learns To Love Small Spy Drones Dependable Expendables?

While cheap precision weapons, supposedly expendable drones, and invulnerable standoff fires continue to fascinate publics and intrigue policy makers, we should be careful before subsuming these developments into a coming "new way of war." As a recent RAND study points out, in a comparison between reusable platforms (think strategic bombers and strike aircraft) and expendable weapons (think cruise missiles), expendable weapons become less cost-effective during prolonged conflict.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 10:25:44 -0800

Obama's Drone Dilemma: The killings probably aren't legal—not that they'll stop.

By: Golden Eternity

Golden Eternity — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 10:52:31 -0800

Pakistani Activist, 14, Is Shot by Taliban She is the author of Diary of a Pakistani schoolgirl Private schools in Pakistan's troubled north-western Swat district have been ordered to close in a Taleban edict banning girls' education. Militants seeking to impose their austere interpretation of Sharia law have destroyed about 150 schools in the past year.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 16:06:26 -0800

Navy Lasers' First Target: Enemy Drones

By: Golden Eternity

Golden Eternity — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:49:02 -0800

Stand up against Taliban to save Pakistan: Altaf Addressing heads of the armed forces and the ISI, Altaf asked them to move ahead and crush the Taliban, saying the 180 million people of the country would be standing behind them. He said MQM workers were with the armed forces to eliminate extremist elements from the country. He said the MQM had always condemned drone strikes and killings of innocent people in these attacks. He categorically stated the MQM could not support drones in the country.

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:12:21 -0800

Voice of a native son: Drones may be a necessary evil

Pakistan's sovereignty claim itself is completely invalid. Pakistan does not now nor has it ever had a complete sovereign control -- as modern nation-states define the term -- over FATA. In fact, it is precisely Pakistan's lack of sovereign control over FATA that allows the militants, many of whom are not Pakistanis, to operate so openly there and invite drone strikes. And that is the best case scenario for Pakistan; the worst case, many believe, is that Pakistan houses and trains these militants in FATA.

By: Golden Eternity

Golden Eternity — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:55:52 -0800

It is so impossible to understand what comes out of Pakistan. It seems so fragmented and corrupt. The The Peshawar Declaration referred to in the article is fascinating. It discusses the supposed sources of support for the Taliban and terrorism (Al-Qaedia - the supposed primary purpose of which is Arab expansionism, and the Strategic Depth policy of the Pakistani Army - the purpose of which was to defend against Russia and India) and ideas to stop terrorism in FATA - which are quite good IMO. Like the author, it seems to come from a Pashtun independence movement of some sort and is 'severely' pro-drone and anti-Pakistani military. The issue of Drone attacks is the most important one. If the people of the war-affected areas are satisfied with any counter militancy strategy, it is the Drone attacks which they support the most. According to the people of Waziristan, Drones have never killed any civilian. Even some people in Waziristan compare Drones with Ababels. (The holy swallows send by God to avenge Abraha, the intended conqueror the Khana Kaaba). A component of the Pakistani media, some retired generals, a few journalists/analysts and pro-Taliban political parties never tire in their baseless propaganda against Drone attacks. Never killed any civilian???? Yeah, right. I wonder how true it may be that the people actually living under Taliban oppression (Pashtun's in FATA?) may not be opposed to the drone strikes, and may see the Pakistani army as protecting the Taliban, not the native population. Or maybe this is all propaganda. Who knows what to believe.

By: msalt

msalt — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:47:41 -0800

I see a lot of people speaking for the Waziris and what they support or oppose, but I think it's almost impossible to tell at this point. The Pakistani government itself has a very tenuous presence, the media is entirely absent, and political opponents on all sides are routinely assassinated. Notably, local Taliban have assassinated fully 200 of the local leaders (Maliks) who tried to resist their move into Waziristan after Bora Bora fell. Certainly one can imagine a lot of resentment at drones, the innocents killed, the buzz, even the real jihadis killed (among those who sympathize). But I can also imagine some intimidated people happy to see the Taliban get comeuppance, and I can imagine more undecided people who prefer drone attacks to a massive Pakistani army invasion which would probably kill many more innocents and destroy much of the district. In the 2009 invasion, 80,000 to 100,000 civilians were driven from their homes and became refugees; casualty figures are not available.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:14:26 -0800

America Breaks Record for Flying Most Killer Drones at the Same Time

By: msalt

msalt — Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:16:56 -0800

Looking forward to air shows by the Black (ops) Angels

By: homunculus

homunculus — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:00:06 -0800

The Bizarre Story of How Drones Helped Get Us Into the Iraq War

By: homunculus

homunculus — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:00:36 -0800

The Lethal Presidency Has Become an Everyday War

By: homunculus

homunculus — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 13:00:46 -0800

CIA seeks to expand drone fleet, officials say

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 01:37:23 -0800

Droneland

The Vice President: It's my pleasure to hold this press conference for the most successful American military asset in Pakistan. Drone TK-738: [series of beeps] Carrie: Something is not right about him. I know that because I was in Iraq. Drone TK-738: [series of beeps] Carrie: Clearly he's communicating with faraway masters, using some kind of code. Carrie: You have to let me do surveillance on him (I'm already doing surveillance on him). Saul: No Carrie. Carrie: He acted like a terrorist in Pakistan. Saul: Impossible Carrie. He obeys the Commander in Chief, and unlike super mean George W. Bush, Barack Obama seems cool and groovy. Carrie: Look at this proof that the Obama Administration ordered him to fire missiles at Pakistani civilians. Saul: Obama's policies don't matter. What matters is that Obama seems cool and groovy. Carrie: He hovered over harmless villages in Waziristan, blowing up families, just to spread fear among— Saul: COOL. AND. GROOVY.

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Sun, 21 Oct 2012 06:38:34 -0800

reason: America's Drone Terrorism

In the United States, the dominant narrative about the use of drones in Pakistan is of a surgically precise and effective tool that makes the U.S. safer by enabling "targeted killing" of terrorists, with minimal downsides or collateral impacts. This narrative is false.

By: the man of twists and turns

the man of twists and turns — Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:39:37 -0800

WIRED: Army's Giant Spy Blimp Plan for Afghanistan Set Adrift