Comments on: Comments on 12042

Post number 12042

grabbingsand — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:19:32 -0800

Five Salem Witches Exonerated - 300 Years Later I would say something like "It's about damned time" -- but like the various Christian denominations apologizing for the Trail of Tears and participation in the slave trade, perhaps it is simply too late. There is no risk in making this gesture at this time. And what is the message here? That these women simply were not guilty of the charges levelled, or that it was wrong to persecute on such a basis in any case?

By: moss

moss — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:38:46 -0800

From the article: "The state has tried to make amends before. In 1711, all the accused were exonerated and their relatives offered retribution. But, whether out of fear or shame, not all the families came forward to accept the apology." So evidently the gesture was also made in a time when there was some risk to it. I agree that this was the right thing to do, but saying "It's about damned time" makes it sound like, up to now, everyone was pretending that there was nothing wrong with the witch trials. It seems to me that the state is just formally expressing what virtually everyone has accepted for years.

By: adampsyche

adampsyche — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:59:18 -0800

2001 too little too late award.

By: zztzed

zztzed — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:20:02 -0800

Sounds to me like they're just doing it to appease the descendents of the accused. Not that that changes the fact that it's a completely pointless gesture or anything...

By: yesster

yesster — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:24:14 -0800

I'm a bit troubled by the notion that historical wrongs have to be righted somehow, as if that were possible. Where do we draw the line? Do we want an apology for the crucifixion of jesus? {secondary question: had jesus not been crucified, he wouldn't have arisen, and much of the foundation of christianity would be gone - so is it a backhanded favor to the christians?} Granted, the Vatican has made formal apologies regarding Newton, Copernicus, and even Darwin. But surely that's more from a PR standpoint than from guilt/ sense of justice. I don't have an answer. Obviously, the notion of justice includes correction of past wrongs, but how far back do we go? Reparations for victims of U.S. Internment Camps of WWII - OK. Euroamerica apologizing to whoever for the crusades - not OK. Anybody got a handy rule-of-thumb for this?

By: kliuless

kliuless — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:24:57 -0800

water under the bridge.

By: Zootoon

Zootoon — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 13:12:52 -0800

What's Euroamerica?

By: jfuller

jfuller — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 13:49:07 -0800

We acknowledge that it was bad and wrong for our great-great-ever-so-great-ancestors to commit sub-speciesist oppression against all those poor Neanderthal persons, and we further acknowledge that all descendents of any such oppressor Homo sapiens sapiens who presently benefits from said oppression owes massive reparations to any and all persons of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis background/ethnicity.

By: yesster

yesster — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 14:13:44 -0800

euroamerica - in the context of the crusades, we can't pinpoint one present nation or region as having been accountable. The populations have intermingled too much for that. The descendents of the original crusaders (and their political backers) are now citizens of the US and all of Europe - hence, "Euroamerica." That's the main problem with redresing historical wrongs - the original groups (victim and aggressor) no longer exist.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 14:15:47 -0800

Reparations! $$$$$$$$ and interest for all the years too. Everyone wants reparations for one or another thing, why not the witches (or if you prefer, alleged witches)

By: Zootoon

Zootoon — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 14:17:08 -0800

OK, thanks.

By: aramaic

aramaic — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 14:25:25 -0800

Postroad: As you have surmised, the only acceptable solution to this situation is the immediate provision for monetary reparations. I, like all rational human beings, demand that an international tribunal be set up to disburse funds to anyone whose family may have suffered, however remotely, at the hands of those Puritan imperialists. I also demand that the tribunal dedicate itself to tracking down any surviving descendants of the oppressors, so that they may be stripped of their ill-gotten possessions and dragged through the streets in chains. This is the only acceptable way to impose historical justice. Anyone who opposes this solution must, clearly, be an oppressor themselves, and should be punished accordingly. Thank you.

By: jcterminal

jcterminal — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 14:42:12 -0800

being a decendant of one of those victims, i should be receiving a check soon right? or maybe 40 acres and a mule.

By: jfuller

jfuller — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 14:46:16 -0800

> The descendents of the original crusaders (and their > political backers) are now citizens of the US and all of > Europe Not to mention lineal descendents all over the Middle East. These, of course, will be required to pay reparations to themselves.

By: Doug

Doug — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:07:22 -0800

Well, those women were murdered, weren't they? By the state? It's been so long that it would be hard for us to take it very seriously, but still, they were killed for insane, stupid reasons, and branded something that they weren't. If a court of law incorrectly found me to be a child molesting murdered, for instance, I'd like my ancestors to clear my name, if possible.

By: fold_and_mutilate

fold_and_mutilate — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:17:15 -0800

The rich and powerful, be they members of the domineering race, religion, social class, etc, always seek to minimize their terrible guilt. All criminals seek the same.

By: dness2

dness2 — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:31:17 -0800

So, what's the difference between being exonerated (as in 1711) and 'cleared by name' (as in now)? It seems to me that since reparations were offered almost 300 years ago that the duty of modern Americans to reparate is done. Besides, my ancestors were still busy avoiding persecution in their home countries. I think there's got to be a statute of limitations on this sort of thing.

By: skallas

skallas — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:41:07 -0800

"These people were victims of hysteria, and they paid deeply with their lives," Poppycock I say! [sorry couldnt resist] There was little hysteria, the religious syllogisms are nice and precise once you accept the root assumptions. These actions were carried out by people who could convince a credulous or ignorant person to join the side of extreme punishment. Its false and just plain wrong to sweep wrongdoings under the blanket of hysteria. Muder, genocides, etc happen in "reasonable" societies all through history. The lesson that should be learned is that a critical eye cast on the norm and the assumptions of the day is probably the best way to protect your rights and the rights of others.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 17:45:55 -0800

But...she turned me into a newt....

By: aramaic

aramaic — Fri, 02 Nov 2001 21:31:48 -0800

rushmc = winnar!

By: rushmc

rushmc — Sun, 04 Nov 2001 07:48:55 -0800

It got better.