""It was sad to see the fans cheer for somebody getting hurt"
October 8, 2012 7:54 PM Subscribe
NFL Chiefs player Eric Winston rants (audio) against stadium fans who cheered when Chiefs quarterback Matt Cassell was knocked out during game play. "We are not gladiators and this is not the Roman Colosseum. This is a game."
Then why are they having young people engage in what amounts to a human bloodsport that leads to accumulating brain damage and leaves athletes hobbling old men well before their time?
posted by dunkadunc at 8:10 PM on October 8, 2012 [15 favorites]
posted by dunkadunc at 8:10 PM on October 8, 2012 [15 favorites]
Based on many past discussions here, I thought they had become gladiators.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:11 PM on October 8, 2012
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:11 PM on October 8, 2012
"Then why are they having young people engage in what amounts to a human bloodsport that leads to accumulating brain damage and leaves athletes hobbling old men well before their time?"
Because it's fucking awesome to watch, der.
posted by bardic at 8:12 PM on October 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Because it's fucking awesome to watch, der.
posted by bardic at 8:12 PM on October 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
The second half of the quote is even more poignant:
posted by zachlipton at 8:13 PM on October 8, 2012 [11 favorites]
"Matt Cassel hasn’t done anything to you people, hasn’t done anything to the media writers who kill him, hasn’t done anything wrong to the people that come out here and cheer him. If he’s not the best quarterback, he’s not the best quarterback, and that’s OK. But he’s a person. And he got knocked out in a game, and we got 70,000 people cheering If you’re one of those people who were out there cheering, or even smiled, when he got knocked out, I just want everyone to know it’s sickening and disgusting.”There just might be A Few Good Men in the NFL somewhere.
posted by zachlipton at 8:13 PM on October 8, 2012 [11 favorites]
This would have been a good moment for the NFL to say "OK, we're calling this whole football thing off. It's too damn dangerous. From now on, it'll be badminton and chess".
posted by dunkadunc at 8:16 PM on October 8, 2012
posted by dunkadunc at 8:16 PM on October 8, 2012
Characterising that as a rant is unfair. = I agree, and I tried to think of a better word and I couldn't! Even checked a thesaurus but I couldn't seem to find one. Forgive me.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:24 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:24 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Just cuz you say it's not a bloodsport doesn't mean it's not a bloodsport. You can't spend decades hyping and marketing and stirring up frothing testosterone driven fanaticism among your demographic and for all intents and purposes thumbing your dick at the line between Gladiator and sport and then when the juggernaut you created gets out of control lay the blame at the feet of the fans. The NFL, as much as I like watching football, makes its bed and it will lay in it.
posted by spicynuts at 8:25 PM on October 8, 2012 [20 favorites]
posted by spicynuts at 8:25 PM on October 8, 2012 [20 favorites]
Matt Cassel hasn’t done anything to you people, hasn’t done anything to the media writers who kill him, hasn’t done anything wrong to the people that come out here and cheer him.
Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
posted by kafziel at 8:27 PM on October 8, 2012
Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
posted by kafziel at 8:27 PM on October 8, 2012
Someone is going to die in an NFL game in the next few years and millions of people are going to see it live.
And it probably won't change anything.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 8:30 PM on October 8, 2012
And it probably won't change anything.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 8:30 PM on October 8, 2012
Also, if you think it's not a Gladiator sport, Mr. Winston, maybe you should call up FOX Sports and ask them why they have those little robot freakazoid animated gladiators doing things like beating the living shit out of each other in all of their stingers, transitions, teasers and stat gfx.
posted by spicynuts at 8:30 PM on October 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by spicynuts at 8:30 PM on October 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Someone is going to die in an NFL game in the next few years and millions of people are going to see it live.
People have been paralyzed and damn near it on live TV. Generally the result is a prayer circle on field amongst players. I've never seen fans cheer one before though.
posted by spicynuts at 8:31 PM on October 8, 2012
People have been paralyzed and damn near it on live TV. Generally the result is a prayer circle on field amongst players. I've never seen fans cheer one before though.
posted by spicynuts at 8:31 PM on October 8, 2012
Matt Cassel hasn’t done anything to you people, hasn’t done anything to the media writers who kill him, hasn’t done anything wrong to the people that come out here and cheer him.
Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
And?
posted by sendai sleep master at 8:34 PM on October 8, 2012 [14 favorites]
Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
And?
posted by sendai sleep master at 8:34 PM on October 8, 2012 [14 favorites]
Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
Which doesn't justify what happened. But personally, I have a whole lot more concern for the high school and college players. Many of these guys are taking the same kinds of risks and hits the pros do, with growing brains, and they do it for no pay, just the slim hope of going pro some day.
Winston even acknowledges this a bit when he says that he figures he probably won't live as long because of the sport he plays. It's one thing for a well compensated adult to make that choice, just as, say, test pilots and astronauts and soldiers and loggers do, out of something between desire and necessity. It's another thing for 13-21 year-olds to be making that choice so they can play a ballgame.
posted by zachlipton at 8:37 PM on October 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Which doesn't justify what happened. But personally, I have a whole lot more concern for the high school and college players. Many of these guys are taking the same kinds of risks and hits the pros do, with growing brains, and they do it for no pay, just the slim hope of going pro some day.
Winston even acknowledges this a bit when he says that he figures he probably won't live as long because of the sport he plays. It's one thing for a well compensated adult to make that choice, just as, say, test pilots and astronauts and soldiers and loggers do, out of something between desire and necessity. It's another thing for 13-21 year-olds to be making that choice so they can play a ballgame.
posted by zachlipton at 8:37 PM on October 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
> Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
I'm not much of one for sports in general, but I tend to think that reducing his profession to "throwing a ball around for lots of money" sounds a lot like people who reduce my profession to "types on a keyboard for lots of money." Maybe there's something else going on there that could justify the money.
As I understand things, hordes of people are entertained by other people throwing balls, and throwing balls very well isn't easy.
posted by timfinnie at 8:38 PM on October 8, 2012 [22 favorites]
I'm not much of one for sports in general, but I tend to think that reducing his profession to "throwing a ball around for lots of money" sounds a lot like people who reduce my profession to "types on a keyboard for lots of money." Maybe there's something else going on there that could justify the money.
As I understand things, hordes of people are entertained by other people throwing balls, and throwing balls very well isn't easy.
posted by timfinnie at 8:38 PM on October 8, 2012 [22 favorites]
Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
Dude is a worker who owns the means to production, and thus should get compensated for such.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:41 PM on October 8, 2012 [17 favorites]
Dude is a worker who owns the means to production, and thus should get compensated for such.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:41 PM on October 8, 2012 [17 favorites]
"Are you not entertained? Is this not why you are here?"
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:41 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:41 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
It's not just high school. Pop Warner in Anaheim had a bounty program, for fuck's sake.
posted by Brocktoon at 8:48 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 8:48 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
KC fans' ire directed at GM, owner
While I'm not a huge Jason Whitlock fan, I have to agree that people who were cheering probably weren't really saying, "YES! Cassel is out for the game! Screw him!" but rather "Screw you, Clark Hunt, and the horse you rode in on!"
Kansas City sports fans are paying a lot of money to Clark Hunt (Chiefs) and David Glass (Royals) so we can have the dubious pleasure of watching our teams lose. It's not surprising that people are booing when they should be cheering and vice versa.
posted by angelchrys at 8:52 PM on October 8, 2012
While I'm not a huge Jason Whitlock fan, I have to agree that people who were cheering probably weren't really saying, "YES! Cassel is out for the game! Screw him!" but rather "Screw you, Clark Hunt, and the horse you rode in on!"
Kansas City sports fans are paying a lot of money to Clark Hunt (Chiefs) and David Glass (Royals) so we can have the dubious pleasure of watching our teams lose. It's not surprising that people are booing when they should be cheering and vice versa.
posted by angelchrys at 8:52 PM on October 8, 2012
I lost all respect for Eagles fans and the organization, when Michael Irvin's neck injury was cheered on. I lived in Philadelphia for near twenty years and I've never been as disgusted with the city.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:52 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:52 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm really really hoping drum corps can gather in one one-hundredth of the fans when NFL implodes. Seriously - its a sport and an art form. Come out for a show one summer night - you'll be amazed, and blown away.
Here, if it wasn't linked upthread, is Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker article, which in part compares football and dog fighting.
posted by newdaddy at 8:54 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Here, if it wasn't linked upthread, is Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker article, which in part compares football and dog fighting.
posted by newdaddy at 8:54 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
People in groups do stupid things. I don't necessarily think this is unique to football. I do hope that Winston makes some people think about what they're doing and maybe take a step back and reconsider it.
I think football could be safer by removing a lot of the padding. If I'm a defensive player and I hit someone and know I'm going to take a huge amount of the force from it, then I'm a lot less likely to throw my entire bodyweight at an opposing player. It's really really hard to hurt yourself in football pads (in high school we used to run into walls in them for fun), but a brain going from 20 mph to 0 mph and back again in the distance of 6 inches is going to suffer trauma no matter how advanced the helmet is, it's just physics. Would football survive slowing the game down like that? It might not be as popular as it was before, but there's a lot of fans that watch it for the actual sport and not just the potential head trauma and compound fractures.
When it comes down to it, football's just a fun sport to play. I played in high school knowing I was never going to do it in college or professionally and it was still rewarding. I broke a couple of ribs and got some bruises, but never had anything serious happen to me or anyone I played with, and as a side note it's about as inclusive as I've found any sport to be. With my body type and build I'd never have been on a soccer or basketball team, but I was a pretty decent offensive tackle.
I'm not really a fan of boxing, but I see the art and strategy in it. There's a large number of people that just want to see a knockout, but the true fans are there for the sport. Football's the same in that regard. The NFL's identity crisis is in trying to keep both kinds of fans, and I don't know how they can do that.
posted by mikesch at 9:16 PM on October 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
I think football could be safer by removing a lot of the padding. If I'm a defensive player and I hit someone and know I'm going to take a huge amount of the force from it, then I'm a lot less likely to throw my entire bodyweight at an opposing player. It's really really hard to hurt yourself in football pads (in high school we used to run into walls in them for fun), but a brain going from 20 mph to 0 mph and back again in the distance of 6 inches is going to suffer trauma no matter how advanced the helmet is, it's just physics. Would football survive slowing the game down like that? It might not be as popular as it was before, but there's a lot of fans that watch it for the actual sport and not just the potential head trauma and compound fractures.
When it comes down to it, football's just a fun sport to play. I played in high school knowing I was never going to do it in college or professionally and it was still rewarding. I broke a couple of ribs and got some bruises, but never had anything serious happen to me or anyone I played with, and as a side note it's about as inclusive as I've found any sport to be. With my body type and build I'd never have been on a soccer or basketball team, but I was a pretty decent offensive tackle.
I'm not really a fan of boxing, but I see the art and strategy in it. There's a large number of people that just want to see a knockout, but the true fans are there for the sport. Football's the same in that regard. The NFL's identity crisis is in trying to keep both kinds of fans, and I don't know how they can do that.
posted by mikesch at 9:16 PM on October 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
Every time a NFL player gets a concussion, it reminds me of the classic concussion commercial courtesy of Snickers... "I'm Batman"
posted by matimer at 9:23 PM on October 8, 2012
posted by matimer at 9:23 PM on October 8, 2012
Football is not a "bloodsport," and if you think it is then I sincerely hope you stop watching because (1) I think it's generally bad for a society to have people engaging in behavior they perceive to be "watching a bloodsport," and (2) I don't think it does the NFL any favors to have among its fans people who see it as a bloodsport.
posted by cribcage at 9:27 PM on October 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by cribcage at 9:27 PM on October 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
How many favors does it do for society to have a multi-billion dollar industry spending a good percentage of those billions on marketing that does everything it can to use the language and visuals of bloodsport to promote its entertainment while every so carefully keeping the transgressions over that line hidden behind a curtain (Saints bounty program)?
posted by spicynuts at 9:32 PM on October 8, 2012
posted by spicynuts at 9:32 PM on October 8, 2012
You're stating characterization as fact. I disagree with your characterization.
As for the Saints? I think a season's suspension is light-handed. A permanent ban seems more appropriate. Several. And I find it distasteful that people were cheering on the quarterback to earn a place in NFL history yesterday, with "special exceptions" having been made on the suspensions that were given. I think I was the only person hoping that touchdown wouldn't happen.
But thinking that a transgression was wrong and believing the punishment was too light isn't the same as necessarily requiring openness. If it had all gone down behind an NFL curtain and everyone responsible had just been flat-out fired, I probably would've been okay with that.
posted by cribcage at 10:08 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
As for the Saints? I think a season's suspension is light-handed. A permanent ban seems more appropriate. Several. And I find it distasteful that people were cheering on the quarterback to earn a place in NFL history yesterday, with "special exceptions" having been made on the suspensions that were given. I think I was the only person hoping that touchdown wouldn't happen.
But thinking that a transgression was wrong and believing the punishment was too light isn't the same as necessarily requiring openness. If it had all gone down behind an NFL curtain and everyone responsible had just been flat-out fired, I probably would've been okay with that.
posted by cribcage at 10:08 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
He and his teammates can stop spearing other players with their helmets, that would go a lot farther in preventing injuries than his argument .
posted by kanemano at 10:09 PM on October 8, 2012
posted by kanemano at 10:09 PM on October 8, 2012
Kansas City sports fans are paying a lot of money to Clark Hunt (Chiefs) and David Glass (Royals) so we can have the dubious pleasure of watching our teams lose. It's not surprising that people are booing when they should be cheering and vice versa.
Apologist.
posted by Mojojojo at 10:35 PM on October 8, 2012
Apologist.
posted by Mojojojo at 10:35 PM on October 8, 2012
If anything I think the NFL has toned down a lot of the bloodsport rhetoric in recent years, and has focused on awesome offensive plays and maybe some decent stops by defenders. You'll see this touchdown on highlight reels for years to come, whereas a big hit on a running back or receiver is going to get a lot less focus, shown on the sports segment that night if it was on a critical play.
I don't think I've seen one incident of intentional spearing in the last few years, it's all been accidental and endemic to moving that much mass at those speeds. There's been a lot of focus on putting a stop to that and a lot more rules put into place protecting players. The Cassel concussion resulted from what looks like a normal hit, even on slow motion replay I'm having trouble seeing where the injury happens. It's certainly not the result of an overzealous linebacker.
I'd love to be proven wrong on either point, but I've looked through all the recent ads I can find and haven't found one that glorifies the hitting aspect of the game.
I agree that the bounty program deserved a much harsher punishment. Anyone involved has no business being anywhere near the game. Ever.
posted by mikesch at 10:37 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I don't think I've seen one incident of intentional spearing in the last few years, it's all been accidental and endemic to moving that much mass at those speeds. There's been a lot of focus on putting a stop to that and a lot more rules put into place protecting players. The Cassel concussion resulted from what looks like a normal hit, even on slow motion replay I'm having trouble seeing where the injury happens. It's certainly not the result of an overzealous linebacker.
I'd love to be proven wrong on either point, but I've looked through all the recent ads I can find and haven't found one that glorifies the hitting aspect of the game.
I agree that the bounty program deserved a much harsher punishment. Anyone involved has no business being anywhere near the game. Ever.
posted by mikesch at 10:37 PM on October 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
I'm pretty much as lefty and bleeding-heart as they come, and I'd just like to say that that is some nasty bullshit right there.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:51 PM on October 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
I'm pretty much as lefty and bleeding-heart as they come, and I'd just like to say that that is some nasty bullshit right there.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:51 PM on October 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
If only there was some way not to pay really big guys lots of money to run into each other as hard as possible.
posted by sophist at 12:02 AM on October 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by sophist at 12:02 AM on October 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Funny how he goes on to say that every game is gonna be a "street fight."
posted by paperzach at 12:14 AM on October 9, 2012
posted by paperzach at 12:14 AM on October 9, 2012
Thumbs down.
posted by three blind mice at 12:25 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by three blind mice at 12:25 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
You can't rationalize this sport anymore. You lost that grace completely after what happened to Junior. People on the right side of the fence will not be convinced to reinvest, so at this point you're really just trying to convince yourself.
posted by Brocktoon at 1:03 AM on October 9, 2012
posted by Brocktoon at 1:03 AM on October 9, 2012
It's an argument that injuries are a by-product of the game, not the point of it. There's a difference between a fan's enjoying a game that often injures its players and being entertained by the injuries themselves.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:59 AM on October 9, 2012
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:59 AM on October 9, 2012
even on slow motion replay I'm having trouble seeing where the injury happens
Looks like the hit knocked him into the back of another defender, so his head was sharply accelerated and then decelerated again. I'd guess it was that double jolt that did it, maybe due to the shockwaves from the two brain-against-skull blows propagating into each other and constructively interfering, as with double-tap gunshot wounds?
Agree that the hit itself wasn't malicious, or even particularly nasty.
posted by phl at 2:52 AM on October 9, 2012
Looks like the hit knocked him into the back of another defender, so his head was sharply accelerated and then decelerated again. I'd guess it was that double jolt that did it, maybe due to the shockwaves from the two brain-against-skull blows propagating into each other and constructively interfering, as with double-tap gunshot wounds?
Agree that the hit itself wasn't malicious, or even particularly nasty.
posted by phl at 2:52 AM on October 9, 2012
I think people talking about how football actually is a bloodsport are missing the real crux of the issue here. Fans didn't cheer Matt Cassel getting injured because they love violence, they didn't cheer him getting injured because it was a big exciting hit; the hit wasn't particularly violent and it wasn't exciting in the least. They cheered because he was hurt and because they knew that if he was hurt then Brady Quinn would get to play. Football fans cheer the violence in the game all the time, but this wasn't like that; the play in question wasn't the type you cheer for, even if you love violence in the game. The only really violent (by football standards) thing that happened was the injury; they weren't cheering for violence in football, they were cheering specifically that a person got hurt, and that is different.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 4:17 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 4:17 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think football could be safer by removing a lot of the padding. If I'm a defensive player and I hit someone and know I'm going to take a huge amount of the force from it, then I'm a lot less likely to throw my entire bodyweight at an opposing player.
Most rugby players wear no padding and there are much more strict rules about what constitutes a legal tackle, but players still run into each other at full speed and it causes the same problems with concussions.
posted by burnmp3s at 5:15 AM on October 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Most rugby players wear no padding and there are much more strict rules about what constitutes a legal tackle, but players still run into each other at full speed and it causes the same problems with concussions.
posted by burnmp3s at 5:15 AM on October 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
There's a difference between a fan's enjoying a game that often injures its players and being entertained by the injuries themselves.
Not one that matters.
posted by enn at 5:56 AM on October 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Not one that matters.
posted by enn at 5:56 AM on October 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Winston backtracked pretty quickly on the "70,000 fans" part of his statement in the wake of responses by many fans who reported that most of them weren't cheering.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:47 AM on October 9, 2012
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:47 AM on October 9, 2012
You're stating characterization as fact. I disagree with your characterization.
True, I am stating my opinion. However, as a fan (Jets...so maybe I'm projecting here) I've had about 40 years of exposure to the NFL. I see the opening songs for MNF, I see the animations, I see the way the analysts talk, I listen to the callers on WFAN all day long, I listen to ex-players like Carl Banks, talking about this VERY issue, spend time saying how his number one goal was to remove the quarterback - at all costs. The adjectives, metaphors, imagery, slang and over all tone that coaches, players, analysts, graphic designers, copy writers, producers, and even fans use when describing game play, game preparation, game mentality, is all about violence and blood. It wasn't like that in the late 70s or even early 80s. I lay the blame that the feet of Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys. Mostly because I hate them. Not because they are actually to blame.
posted by spicynuts at 7:34 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
True, I am stating my opinion. However, as a fan (Jets...so maybe I'm projecting here) I've had about 40 years of exposure to the NFL. I see the opening songs for MNF, I see the animations, I see the way the analysts talk, I listen to the callers on WFAN all day long, I listen to ex-players like Carl Banks, talking about this VERY issue, spend time saying how his number one goal was to remove the quarterback - at all costs. The adjectives, metaphors, imagery, slang and over all tone that coaches, players, analysts, graphic designers, copy writers, producers, and even fans use when describing game play, game preparation, game mentality, is all about violence and blood. It wasn't like that in the late 70s or even early 80s. I lay the blame that the feet of Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys. Mostly because I hate them. Not because they are actually to blame.
posted by spicynuts at 7:34 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
burnmp3s: Most rugby players wear no padding and there are much more strict rules about what constitutes a legal tackle, but players still run into each other at full speed and it causes the same problems with concussions.
You're cite, while relevant, actually mentions the lack of research in that area, specifically the statement that "it causes the same problems with concussions." Doubly so because you're replying as a counter to a comment that mentions padding as a factor in American football that encourages reckless behavior and increased risk of injury.
From that link (emphasis mine):
The I.R.B., the game’s governing body, has sanctioned a study into the long-term physical and psychological effects of rugby injuries, with a focus on neuro-cognitive decline.
The tests will be broad-ranging, including muscle and bone health, balance, memory and brain activity, and they will be conducted by the Sports Performance Research Institute New Zealand at the Auckland University of Technology. (People can sign up at rugbyhealth.co.nz .) A final report will be presented to the I.R.B. in September 2013.
The research has been prompted by studies done in the United States that have linked concussions to long-term mental health problems and degenerative brain disease.
While Dr. Martin Raftery, the I.R.B.’s chief medical officer, is aware of the results of research being done in the United States involving football players, he is wary of applying it to rugby players because of the major differences between the two sports.
While direct hits to the head were once commonplace in American football, they have never been sanctioned in rugby. There is also more contact with the head in football because the players wear helmets and tend to use their heads as offensive or defensive weapons.
“American football is a completely different sport to rugby,” Raftery said. “While we don’t think it applies to our sport, we didn’t want to stick our heads in the sand. We wanted to find out, does it apply?"
So yea, rugby is doing it right because, at least as far as I've heard (which could ABSOLUTELY be inadequate) they don't have the same long term health problems which have became oh-so-apparent in our players here in the US and they're being proactive in studying their players and looking out for their safety.* And because they're really making it about men in a contest of skill against men, not mechs in battle armor duking it out until attrition by injury causes a shift in the balance of the game itself.
*I'm not a fan of rugby in general but I am a fan of removing some of the gear that makes football, american style, into a slugfest between players in tank armor who can, and often do, go hell-bent-for-leather and end up with injuries that just aren't warranted.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:52 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
You're cite, while relevant, actually mentions the lack of research in that area, specifically the statement that "it causes the same problems with concussions." Doubly so because you're replying as a counter to a comment that mentions padding as a factor in American football that encourages reckless behavior and increased risk of injury.
From that link (emphasis mine):
The I.R.B., the game’s governing body, has sanctioned a study into the long-term physical and psychological effects of rugby injuries, with a focus on neuro-cognitive decline.
The tests will be broad-ranging, including muscle and bone health, balance, memory and brain activity, and they will be conducted by the Sports Performance Research Institute New Zealand at the Auckland University of Technology. (People can sign up at rugbyhealth.co.nz .) A final report will be presented to the I.R.B. in September 2013.
The research has been prompted by studies done in the United States that have linked concussions to long-term mental health problems and degenerative brain disease.
While Dr. Martin Raftery, the I.R.B.’s chief medical officer, is aware of the results of research being done in the United States involving football players, he is wary of applying it to rugby players because of the major differences between the two sports.
While direct hits to the head were once commonplace in American football, they have never been sanctioned in rugby. There is also more contact with the head in football because the players wear helmets and tend to use their heads as offensive or defensive weapons.
“American football is a completely different sport to rugby,” Raftery said. “While we don’t think it applies to our sport, we didn’t want to stick our heads in the sand. We wanted to find out, does it apply?"
So yea, rugby is doing it right because, at least as far as I've heard (which could ABSOLUTELY be inadequate) they don't have the same long term health problems which have became oh-so-apparent in our players here in the US and they're being proactive in studying their players and looking out for their safety.* And because they're really making it about men in a contest of skill against men, not mechs in battle armor duking it out until attrition by injury causes a shift in the balance of the game itself.
*I'm not a fan of rugby in general but I am a fan of removing some of the gear that makes football, american style, into a slugfest between players in tank armor who can, and often do, go hell-bent-for-leather and end up with injuries that just aren't warranted.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:52 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
So yea, rugby is doing it right because, at least as far as I've heard (which could ABSOLUTELY be inadequate) they don't have the same long term health problems which have became oh-so-apparent in our players here in the US and they're being proactive in studying their players and looking out for their safety.
The subject of the article is a scrum-half who retired in 2007 and has had classic symptoms of concussion-induced brain injuries (migraines, depression, etc.). The american football, hockey, and rugby worlds have all relatively recently started getting serious about concussions and still have a long way to go. The IRB put in rules to require a three week break for any player that has a concussion, but that can be counter-productive because no player would ever want to be diagnosed and miss that much time. Anyway my point was that getting rid of padding does not get rid of the core problem of playing a contact sport at high levels, which is inherently dangerous in terms of sustaining long term brain damage. Helmet-to-helmet collisions might be the most obvious cause of major brain injuries but the human brain does not hold up well to thousands of high speed impacts no matter how they happen. It's a tricky problem to deal with and there's no easy answer to how to fix it.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:45 AM on October 9, 2012
The subject of the article is a scrum-half who retired in 2007 and has had classic symptoms of concussion-induced brain injuries (migraines, depression, etc.). The american football, hockey, and rugby worlds have all relatively recently started getting serious about concussions and still have a long way to go. The IRB put in rules to require a three week break for any player that has a concussion, but that can be counter-productive because no player would ever want to be diagnosed and miss that much time. Anyway my point was that getting rid of padding does not get rid of the core problem of playing a contact sport at high levels, which is inherently dangerous in terms of sustaining long term brain damage. Helmet-to-helmet collisions might be the most obvious cause of major brain injuries but the human brain does not hold up well to thousands of high speed impacts no matter how they happen. It's a tricky problem to deal with and there's no easy answer to how to fix it.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:45 AM on October 9, 2012
The subject of the article is a scrum-half who retired in 2007 and has had classic symptoms of concussion-induced brain injuries (migraines, depression, etc.).
And included in the article was the testimony of a doctor specializing in that field who is telling us to be wary of making direct comparisons (for various reasons like differences in rules, protective gear, and history between the two games) which is exactly what you're attempting to do.
Anyway my point was that getting rid of padding does not get rid of the core problem of playing a contact sport at high levels
Right, removing padding does not make a contact sport into a non-contact sport. I'm sure everyone can agree on that.
which is inherently dangerous in terms of sustaining long term brain damage.
Right, but I'll wait for the research results to see more information on which is worse between the sport that involves heavy padding and one that involves minimal padding and then use that to encourage changes that improve player safety in both of them.
but the human brain does not hold up well to thousands of high speed impacts no matter how they happen.
Again, this is completely relevant to American football and I'm in total agreement with you, but I think that's the thing, and rugby people can chime in and support/deny this because I may be wrong, those types of impacts aren't nearly as common or as encouraged/allowed in rugby when compared to football. That's where the research is going to shine, if it comes back that, indeed, there are the same health issues in both populations that's one thing, but if not that's very telling as well.
Agree, quite tricky, quite hard to fix because people are short sighted and greedy. Here's to hope.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:04 AM on October 9, 2012
And included in the article was the testimony of a doctor specializing in that field who is telling us to be wary of making direct comparisons (for various reasons like differences in rules, protective gear, and history between the two games) which is exactly what you're attempting to do.
Anyway my point was that getting rid of padding does not get rid of the core problem of playing a contact sport at high levels
Right, removing padding does not make a contact sport into a non-contact sport. I'm sure everyone can agree on that.
which is inherently dangerous in terms of sustaining long term brain damage.
Right, but I'll wait for the research results to see more information on which is worse between the sport that involves heavy padding and one that involves minimal padding and then use that to encourage changes that improve player safety in both of them.
but the human brain does not hold up well to thousands of high speed impacts no matter how they happen.
Again, this is completely relevant to American football and I'm in total agreement with you, but I think that's the thing, and rugby people can chime in and support/deny this because I may be wrong, those types of impacts aren't nearly as common or as encouraged/allowed in rugby when compared to football. That's where the research is going to shine, if it comes back that, indeed, there are the same health issues in both populations that's one thing, but if not that's very telling as well.
Agree, quite tricky, quite hard to fix because people are short sighted and greedy. Here's to hope.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:04 AM on October 9, 2012
Someone is going to die in an NFL game in the next few years and millions of people are going to see it live.
For a moment, I honestly thought Darrius Heyward-Bey was dead a couple of weeks ago. Two helmets to his helmet and no flags from the replacement refs.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 10:05 AM on October 9, 2012
For a moment, I honestly thought Darrius Heyward-Bey was dead a couple of weeks ago. Two helmets to his helmet and no flags from the replacement refs.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 10:05 AM on October 9, 2012
Matt Cassel was paid $5,250,000 to throw a ball around for the 2012 season.
I don't really watch sports. I don't care for most of 'em. I find the level of cash and fame offered to athletes to be ridiculous.
NONE of that applies here. Dude got seriously hurt playing a game and people cheered for it. Doesn't matter how much he gets paid. Buying toys gives you the right to break them or cheer when someone else does it, but a human being is not a toy and you didn't buy him.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:14 AM on October 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
I don't really watch sports. I don't care for most of 'em. I find the level of cash and fame offered to athletes to be ridiculous.
NONE of that applies here. Dude got seriously hurt playing a game and people cheered for it. Doesn't matter how much he gets paid. Buying toys gives you the right to break them or cheer when someone else does it, but a human being is not a toy and you didn't buy him.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:14 AM on October 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Again, this is completely relevant to American football and I'm in total agreement with you, but I think that's the thing, and rugby people can chime in and support/deny this because I may be wrong, those types of impacts aren't nearly as common or as encouraged/allowed in rugby when compared to football.
I'm not sure if I count as a "rugby person" because I don't get to watch a lot of rugby in the US, but I've seen a decent amount international and club-level of rugby union matches and there are plenty of football-style impacts. The main difference is that in rugby you're not allowed to just shoulder-charge someone like they do in American football, you have to wrap your arms around the person and tackle around their waist. That probably has a much bigger impact on the game than the lack of pads. But there are still a lot of dangerous situations that regularly result in injuries in rugby. The games are much longer in terms of actual playing time, and individual players are involved in more tackles (partially because every player plays both offense and defense). It's definitely not slower or less likely to result in full force impacts between players like a previous poster suggested a game without pads would be though.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:48 AM on October 9, 2012
I'm not sure if I count as a "rugby person" because I don't get to watch a lot of rugby in the US, but I've seen a decent amount international and club-level of rugby union matches and there are plenty of football-style impacts. The main difference is that in rugby you're not allowed to just shoulder-charge someone like they do in American football, you have to wrap your arms around the person and tackle around their waist. That probably has a much bigger impact on the game than the lack of pads. But there are still a lot of dangerous situations that regularly result in injuries in rugby. The games are much longer in terms of actual playing time, and individual players are involved in more tackles (partially because every player plays both offense and defense). It's definitely not slower or less likely to result in full force impacts between players like a previous poster suggested a game without pads would be though.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:48 AM on October 9, 2012
Right, so doesn't that mean less head collisions? Maybe I'm missing something but this
you're not allowed to just shoulder-charge someone like they do in American football, you have to wrap your arms around the person and tackle around their waist.
was my impression also. I can certainly see that being as much or more important than pads/lack of pads, it's a fair point. I also didn't have the impression that it's slower or less hard hitting but only the supposition that the equipment policy makes one more concerned with head protection than a helmet/full face mask does.
I won't requote it but here's a comment I made in another discussion on the topic of NFL injuries, specifically brain injuries, and let's just say I agree with Paterno's logic regarding one of the things that's wrong with the way we do things here in the US.
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:01 AM on October 9, 2012
you're not allowed to just shoulder-charge someone like they do in American football, you have to wrap your arms around the person and tackle around their waist.
was my impression also. I can certainly see that being as much or more important than pads/lack of pads, it's a fair point. I also didn't have the impression that it's slower or less hard hitting but only the supposition that the equipment policy makes one more concerned with head protection than a helmet/full face mask does.
I won't requote it but here's a comment I made in another discussion on the topic of NFL injuries, specifically brain injuries, and let's just say I agree with Paterno's logic regarding one of the things that's wrong with the way we do things here in the US.
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:01 AM on October 9, 2012
Here's what I know: I have two children, and neither of them will ever play American football. I know that life involves risk, and activity involves more risk, but it seems like no other sport except possibly boxing ruins its players so quickly and so effectively. It makes me shudder, and I won't watch it any more.
posted by KathrynT at 11:58 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by KathrynT at 11:58 AM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
Nothing against you, KathrynT, but I think that's an over reaction.
At the Pop Warner type level of football, kids aren't physically capable of delivering the blows that are causing these neurological issues. And, given the headgear, I'd submit that kids playing football are better protected from silly, freakish, really serious head injuries that would occur in, say, a soccer game -- with knees and elbows flying and unprotected heads.
Heck, I got concussed badly enough that I required a hospital trip playing badminton.
I'd hate to see football fade away. I hope we can find a way to protect players acceptably. I just love the strategic complexity of it all.
As regards the issue of this post, yeah, the fans were jerks (at least they didn't knife any of the opposing team's fans in the parking lot) but the reason this is a story is Winston's articulate, thoughtful cri de coeur. I doubt we'd be hearing or thinking about the incident if all the sports shows hadn't wanted to play the great sounder.
Winston's cranium seems to be in fine shape, by the way. That was well said by him.
posted by Trochanter at 2:03 PM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
At the Pop Warner type level of football, kids aren't physically capable of delivering the blows that are causing these neurological issues. And, given the headgear, I'd submit that kids playing football are better protected from silly, freakish, really serious head injuries that would occur in, say, a soccer game -- with knees and elbows flying and unprotected heads.
Heck, I got concussed badly enough that I required a hospital trip playing badminton.
I'd hate to see football fade away. I hope we can find a way to protect players acceptably. I just love the strategic complexity of it all.
As regards the issue of this post, yeah, the fans were jerks (at least they didn't knife any of the opposing team's fans in the parking lot) but the reason this is a story is Winston's articulate, thoughtful cri de coeur. I doubt we'd be hearing or thinking about the incident if all the sports shows hadn't wanted to play the great sounder.
Winston's cranium seems to be in fine shape, by the way. That was well said by him.
posted by Trochanter at 2:03 PM on October 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's an argument that injuries are a by-product of the game, not the point of it. There's a difference between a fan's enjoying a game that often injures its players and being entertained by the injuries themselves.
Lets see how many people want to watch touch or flag NFL.
posted by hellslinger at 2:05 PM on October 9, 2012
Lets see how many people want to watch touch or flag NFL.
posted by hellslinger at 2:05 PM on October 9, 2012
At the Pop Warner type level of football, kids aren't physically capable of delivering the blows that are causing these neurological issues.
That's not true. From that link: "[T]he chances of getting a concussion while playing high school football are approximately three times higher than the second most dangerous sport, which is girls' soccer." And according to the CDC, there are millions of concussions amongst adolescent athletes every year.
Repeated concussions can and do cause cognitive and memory issues, particularly when the hits are taken by a still-growing brain. I don't find my stance to be an overreaction at all.
posted by KathrynT at 2:26 PM on October 9, 2012
That's not true. From that link: "[T]he chances of getting a concussion while playing high school football are approximately three times higher than the second most dangerous sport, which is girls' soccer." And according to the CDC, there are millions of concussions amongst adolescent athletes every year.
Repeated concussions can and do cause cognitive and memory issues, particularly when the hits are taken by a still-growing brain. I don't find my stance to be an overreaction at all.
posted by KathrynT at 2:26 PM on October 9, 2012
I was going to say that I have no issue at all with whatever choices you would make.
posted by Trochanter at 2:34 PM on October 9, 2012
posted by Trochanter at 2:34 PM on October 9, 2012
Dale Jr. had something similar to say after last weekend's massive pileup at the end of the Talladega race this past weekend.
posted by daHIFI at 3:16 PM on October 9, 2012
posted by daHIFI at 3:16 PM on October 9, 2012
Eric Winston is mostly right. Cheering a man being injured is barbaric. It's like being a spectator at a public execution. But he is wrong about them not being gladiators in the coliseum. That is precisely the role that football serves in our culture. The problem is not with the game, though. The problem is with our culture. It wasn't football that made O. J. Simpson and Jerry Sandusky. It was modern America.
Raiders fan here so I have a very biased viewpoint. If you don't think a large fraction of the fans want blood you ain't ever seen a night game in the Oakland Coliseum.
By the way Winston is a media star in Houston TX where he used to play and is usually a lot slicker than he came across in that rant.
posted by bukvich at 3:57 PM on October 9, 2012
Raiders fan here so I have a very biased viewpoint. If you don't think a large fraction of the fans want blood you ain't ever seen a night game in the Oakland Coliseum.
By the way Winston is a media star in Houston TX where he used to play and is usually a lot slicker than he came across in that rant.
posted by bukvich at 3:57 PM on October 9, 2012
I've never been more proud to not be a Chiefs fan.
posted by allkindsoftime at 4:56 AM on October 10, 2012
posted by allkindsoftime at 4:56 AM on October 10, 2012
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