Biden/Ryan faceoff

October 11, 2012 5:31 PM

The Biden/Ryan showdown is upon us.

Following last week's surprisingly weak performance by Obama at the first Presidential debate, all eyes are on Joe Biden to come out swinging. Unlike Biden's last VP debate, this time he is up against a wonkish legislator and decent debater in Paul Ryan, who is the favorite to win the debate.

Two very different candidates with very different worldviews, it's hard to know what the focus will be tonight, as the VP debates do not have an official topic. It is speculated that, among other things, Paul Ryan's budget will come up, as well as "the 47%", $716 billion and possibly even the recent attacks in Benghazi.

When asked about his thoughts on the debate, Obama simply replied"I think Joe just needs to be Joe."

posted by triggerfinger (2064 comments total)

70m people watched the debate in 2008. I have a feeling the numbers will be far lower as there is no Sarah Palin involved. Is the country interested in the Veep debate this time out? It will be interesting to see what impact it has.
posted by cell divide at 5:33 PM on October 11, 2012

Paul Ryan has been such a darling of the right, but he's spent too long in the Fox News bubble of deferential treatment. It will be interesting to see what happens tonight.
posted by ambrosia at 5:36 PM on October 11, 2012

If there's anyone left on the internet who still hasn't seen this, enjoy.
posted by phunniemee at 5:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Feeling cautiously optimistic about this debate. Hopefully Biden can staunch the bleeding and give the Romney campaign some wounds as well. I just want a news cycle or two that isn't about Romney beating Obama. Slow or reverse the news cycle and give some breathing room for the Romney bounce to return to previous patterns.
posted by vuron at 5:37 PM on October 11, 2012

Watch for the moment when Biden pulls out the pink sheet for his beloved IROC-Z and challenge Ryan to a drag. Paul Ryan claims he can do a 12 sec quarter mile in his mom's Camrey. This should be awesome.
posted by humanfont at 5:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

Enjoy this VP Bingo Card, you sexy person you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Why, thank you!
posted by flippant at 5:38 PM on October 11, 2012

C-SPAN has live streaming video with minimal commentary.

Also, don't miss The Onion's "Diamond Joe" persona live-tweeting the debate on their official Twitter stream.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

There is a lot of other stuff on tonight. I'll be interested to see how many viewers this gets. If Ryan's tell matches Romney's, Ryan will come out the way he supposes Biden will - very aggressive. I hope Biden son's Ryan. Robert Reich suggested Biden be cheerfully aggressive, but I think playtime is about over, and people want to see these lies and non-positions called out for the ridiculousness they represent.

Ryan will spend a lot of time saying pretty much nothing substantive. Every time Biden tries to pin him down on the numbers and specifics, I think Ryan will do just like Mitt did, and say "no, that's not it". On Medicare, on the budget, on the tax cuts - Biden may try to pin Ryan down to everything he's stood for, but Ryan is just going to not commit to a single thing. I think Biden should figure out a way to press Ryan on one issue, until Ryan is forced to answer, or look horrible. It's 90 minutes - if they start out on the Budget, Biden should just make him commit to specifics. Biden should be serious and attack. I certainly think Ryan is going to do so, while trying to take no positions whatsoever, because that's the last thing these republicans want to do is reveal what their positions are. "Generic Republican" did better in the test polls early on, and wouldn't you know it, that is exactly what Romney-Ryan is trying to run as.
posted by cashman at 5:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm reluctant to watch or follow along here because I don't want to hear anybody freaking out again about debate performances.

I mean, seriously, if enough people are going to ignore all the shit that has gone down in the past year and just vote on the basis of "wow, that dude really told those lies effectively for one night," our society deserves what it gets.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [47 favorites]

If there's anyone left on the internet who still hasn't seen this, enjoy.

spoon, meet gag.
posted by futz at 5:41 PM on October 11, 2012

Paul Ryan has been such a darling of the right, but he's spent too long in the Fox News bubble of deferential treatment.

Well....
posted by cashman at 5:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Biden needs to speak to working class and middle class voters and get his own personal tragedy into the debate at least once. If he can do both the polling should be really positive. If he can get Ryan to defend his privatize entitlements plan as well that would be great but I imagine Ryan will try to evade that.
posted by vuron at 5:42 PM on October 11, 2012

Might as well pitch in.
posted by Miko at 5:42 PM on October 11, 2012

THRILL IN THE VILLE II

TWO WILL ENTER

ONE, MAYBE BOTH WILL SAY SOMETHING EMBARRASSING

ONE WILL LIE THROUGH HIS TEETH

TWO WILL LEAVE
posted by armage at 5:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Twitter:

Joe Biden drinking a Miller 64, rolling through DC in a Camero screaming "I'M THE VICE PRESIDENT AND THERE ARE ILLEGAL DRUGS IN THIS CAR"

Joe Biden's body mic slips off his collar, into his shirt. An aide moves to fix it. "No," Biden winks, "Let the chest hair do the talking."
posted by triggerfinger at 5:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Ah, so those are the Ryan photos people have been talking about. Backwards baseball cap? Really?
posted by brundlefly at 5:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Release the Biden!
posted by angrycat at 5:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Or this Bingo card, although I'm pretty sure that 'Biden says "literally"' should be the free space in the middle.
posted by straw at 5:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Will Lyin' Ryan keep his moniker, or will he henceforth be known as a truth teller? Tune in tonight and find out!
posted by wierdo at 5:47 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan wants to be called Mister Ryan despite spending the last 14 years in Congress.
posted by drezdn at 5:47 PM on October 11, 2012

What's Biden's walk-in music gonna be? Classic metal? Some Public Enemy? Death Grips to let people know he's still down?
posted by Bookhouse at 5:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan should clean up with dudebro fratboys but let's be honest they already vote Republican.
posted by vuron at 5:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Here's another drinking game.

Hey there, Comment Preview! Welcome back!
posted by Room 641-A at 5:48 PM on October 11, 2012

Jon Stewart brought this FDR speech segment to light the other night. It applies today and should be quoted verbatim by anyone in the present administration whenever they start to speak.
posted by hippybear at 5:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [28 favorites]

spoon, meet gag.

I know, right? Where did this "Ryan is the greatest looking White House candidate since John F. Kennedy" come from? To me he looks like central casting for a serial killer. He is less attractive than Romney! In kissability factor:

4. Ryan
3. Romney
2. Biden
1. Obama<---- sexiest, best looking President we have ever had.

That's all from the Shallow Report. We return you to the Snark Fest 2012 already in progress.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [27 favorites]

Moderator Martha Raddatz' ABCNews bio. Let's hope she does better than Lehrer did.
posted by cashman at 5:50 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan wants to be called Mister Ryan despite spending the last 14 years in Congress.

New York Magazine says Biden wants to be Joetorious B.V.P.

I think they're joking. But still there's that little part of me that wants to believe that it's true.
posted by Talez at 5:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

If Obama is Duke Atreides and Romney is Baron Harkonnen, tonight's duel features Feyd and Gurney Halleck.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [29 favorites]

I'm worried that Romney Ryan will soften his stance on every major issue and the media will declare that he won on substance.
posted by Brian B. at 5:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan wants to be called Mister Ryan despite spending the last 14 years in Congress

I can't see any reason why Biden would follow that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012

Probably just so Ryan can turn around and pretend it's a grievous insult to refer to him as Mr.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh it's a female moderator? Ryan's going to have a hard time holding back his mansplaining tendencies. I anticipate at least one response of him talking down to the moderator.
posted by vuron at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

The peddle-bullshit-with-a-smile strategy?
posted by flippant at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012

My guess is that unless Ryan passes out, the media will declare him the winner.
posted by drezdn at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

The Biden/Ryan showdown is upon us.

I read that as "The Biden/Ryan hoedown is upon us" and became far more excited than was seemly.

I am very very sad now.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Moderator Martha Raddatz' ABCNews bio. Let's hope she does better than Lehrer did.

I also hope (albeit perhaps naively) that the fact checkers do better this time. Last time they were like "If we assume that Mitt Romney is telling the truth, then what he's saying is true. We therefore count this as an Obama lie."
posted by Flunkie at 5:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole reason Paul Ryan was added to the ticket to give him more cache in the 2016 election? The election isn't seen as too likely to go to Romney in most any scenario, but they want Paul Ryan to be the prettyboy who ascends to the throne of the GOP and brings the sexy. They sort of tried the same thing with Palin, but that went to hell REAL fast when she started talking.
posted by mediocre at 5:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

In my dreams, the last five minutes of Ryan's portion of the debate goes something like this.

Not so much the getting eaten part, but the "you stupid fool" part.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Apparently Ryan plans to neutralize any attempt by Biden to emphasize his working class Scranton roots by pointing out the unemployment rate there has risen significantly since Obama took office.

I expect a lot of play being made for the Rust Belt OH/PA/MI voters Biden most identifies with.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:56 PM on October 11, 2012

tonight's duel features Feyd and Gurney Halleck.

Those fact checks could be imitated!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole reason Paul Ryan was added to the ticket to give him more cache in the 2016 election?

Ryan might see it that way, but my guess is that it was a bone Romney was throwing to the far right to ensure their support.

Apparently Ryan plans to neutralize any attempt by Biden to emphasize his working class Scranton roots by pointing out the unemployment rate there has risen significantly since Obama took office.

Biden could point out that Janesville has suffered in the 14 years Ryan has been their rep.
posted by drezdn at 5:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm counting on all of you for cogent analysis of tonight's discussion. God Bless!
posted by Renoroc at 5:58 PM on October 11, 2012

WTF?

The chairman of the Commission on Presidential #Debates is asking folks not to tweet for 90 minutes.

... Debate Commiss cochair Frank Fahrenkopf exhorts audience not to tweet debate really? cant stop us in media trailer! #nbcpolitics
posted by ericb at 5:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

OK, wrapping up the pre-drinking, ready to start the debate. With regular drinking. LET'S DO THIS
posted by Capt. Renault at 5:59 PM on October 11, 2012

According to Steve Benen, Ryan wants the moderator to call him "mister", but Biden can call him anything he likes.

Oh, the possibilities. The sweet, sweet, never to be articulated possibilities.
posted by maudlin at 5:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

We just lost the election.
posted by Ad hominem at 5:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Also, don't miss The Onion's "Diamond Joe" persona live-tweeting the debate on their official Twitter stream.

I love this! Diamond Joe is basically Jim Anchower.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Everything seems rather subdued. Even this thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:00 PM on October 11, 2012

Part of the rules are that the moderator has to call Paul Ryan Mr. and not Congressman.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:00 PM on October 11, 2012

We just lost the election.

Wait, what?
posted by drezdn at 6:00 PM on October 11, 2012

We just lost the election.

Ladies and Gentlemen, join me in welcoming Andrew Sullivan to Metafilter.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [49 favorites]

Buddy ... Old media can't tamp down new media. We don't need others to filter and spin what we, the average citizen, experience.
posted by ericb at 6:01 PM on October 11, 2012

Brandon, I for one am full of a savage desire to see some payback.
posted by angrycat at 6:01 PM on October 11, 2012

We just lost the election

DID YOU LOOK IN THE COUCH CUSHIONS?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [35 favorites]

Maybe subdued because everybody is getting their laugh on at Mansplaining Paul Ryan... maybe the fastest-zero-to-funny tumblr ever.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

I have a sinking feeling somehow. I hope I'm wrong.
posted by JKevinKing at 6:02 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan beats Biden to the halfway line. Clearly faster and more virile. He wins.
posted by shortfuse at 6:02 PM on October 11, 2012

Annnnnnnnnnnnd we're OFF!
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 6:02 PM on October 11, 2012

Hellooo grandbaby thread! Let's do this thing.

And we're doing Libya at the first question.
posted by winna at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2012

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole reason Paul Ryan was added to the ticket to give him more cache in the 2016 election?

Two failed VP candidates have gone on to become President since they started running on the same ticket back in the early 1800s. There's no cache in being on a losing team.
posted by Etrigan at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2012

Ah, Republican talking points to begin.
posted by wierdo at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

And Benghazi right off the top. Ouch.
posted by Phire at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2012

hatefull quips "Skeletor's moderating the debate!"
posted by JHarris at 6:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Lol... We will bring a random mob to justice? Yeah, let me know how that works for you, Joe...
posted by pla at 6:04 PM on October 11, 2012

I figured I would get it out of the way early
posted by Ad hominem at 6:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden is on the warpath.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Joe Biden leaps into the attack right off the back, talking about what Romney's policies would mean.
posted by winna at 6:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I figured I would get it out of the way early

In that case, please join me in welcoming MSNBC to Metafilter.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Wait... So we have Biden as the hawk, portraying Romney as the Dove???

/ Looks up for the cats and dogs, and checks the color of the moon...
posted by pla at 6:05 PM on October 11, 2012

Well, so much for "Mr" Ryan
posted by wallabear at 6:05 PM on October 11, 2012

Wow, Ryan, way to miss the entire point of Obama's UN speech.
posted by wierdo at 6:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

What is with Ryan's weird William Shatner delivery.
posted by winna at 6:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I hope Biden brings up how the GOP voted to cut spending on security at embassies.
posted by marsha56 at 6:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ryan: "It took the president two weeks to admit this was a terrorist attack!"

Well maybe he's looking to NOT ESCALATE THIS LIKE A CERTAIN PREDECESSOR.
posted by JHarris at 6:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

What is the extra stuff on Ryan's American flag pin?
posted by Flunkie at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012

My daughter is insisting on watching Wonderpets, so I'm counting on you guys & gals!!!
posted by JKevinKing at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Lie #2: That the Iraqis wanted us in their country and a SOFA could have been negotiated.
posted by wierdo at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden is so amused at Ryan, it's amazing.
posted by Phire at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm sitting at O'Hare and a guy just walked by me wearing a Gary Johnson button. I'm voting for Jill Stein because of her support for single-payer health care. I'm encouraged by signs of other-party life, yet puzzled by their relative obscurity.

Why does any American citizen -- and by this I don't mean a corporate personhood -- support the Democrats or Republicans anymore?
posted by grounded at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

What is with Ryan's weird William Shatner delivery.

He's hoping for a chance to rip off his shirt and do a shoulder roll to avoid a boulder thrown by Biden, who will be playing The Gorn tonight.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Ryan's voice is really annoying. What is it about it? It sounds immature.
posted by mareli at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe openly laughing warms my cockles
posted by goHermGO at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

What is the extra stuff on Ryan's American flag pin?

Bullshit?
posted by Room 641-A at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [45 favorites]

Ryan is not sounding like a meth head like Romney was.
Also, Biden took the toughest question and made it a win.
posted by angrycat at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

The entire freaking "projecting weakness abroad" thing is such a load of bullshit. GRAR SHOW THEM OUR GUNS AND THEY WON'T HATE US.
posted by Phire at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"Weakness abroad" "Obama's foreign policy unraveling" Riiiiiight
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012

OH THE MODERATOR STRAIGHT UP WENT TO THE ROMNEY LIBYA SPEECH.

She is not being Jim Lehrer, at least.
posted by winna at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I like Biden's "you-little-farking-liar" face.
posted by Vysharra at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

My daughter is insisting on watching Wonderpets, so I'm counting on you guys & gals!!!

Well, so far there's been far less teamwork and what Ryan is suggesting won't work. That said, this is serious.
posted by drezdn at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

"That's a bunch of malarkey."

FUCK YES BIDEN.
posted by Phire at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]

Malarky! I say, malarky!
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

'With all due respect, that's a bunch of malarky.'

THE HILARITY IS OVER NINE THOUSAND
posted by winna at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

And now Ryan apparently agrees with Romney that we should have invaded Iran.
posted by wierdo at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2012

Get 'im Biden!
posted by cashman at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

YEAH JOE FUCK YEAH
posted by angrycat at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan talking about not calling someone a reformer when he was turning Russian-provided guns on his own people. What about when we supported Osama bin Laden?
posted by JHarris at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe openly laughing warms my cockles

Despite the George Washington teeth, he has a great smile. One of his biggest assets.
posted by essexjan at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Malarkey! We are being hoodwinked!

These dudes should just settle it in the parking lot.
posted by Ad hominem at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Omg, Joe, DAMN! "Not a single thing he just said is accurate."
posted by peachfuzz at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Joe is a foreign policy guy. Don't try to bullshit him..
posted by triggerfinger at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

What is with Ryan's weird William Shatner delivery.

Well, Shatner has been giving politicians advice (in Canada)
posted by chapps at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan wants to beef up security at embassies? Ryan wants to cut that spending.

WTF?
posted by WestChester22 at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

PANIC GRIN
posted by The Whelk at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

AND BIDEN IS HITTING HIM WITH THE GOP MALARKEY.
love me his irishness :D
posted by liza at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

YOWZA JOE!!!
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

MALARKEY!!
posted by Room 641-A at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden goes after Ryan on embassy security spending.

YAAYYYYYY!! Way to go Joe !!
posted by marsha56 at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

And Biden brings it with the security budget cuts. Go Biden!
posted by wierdo at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan's smile looks rather more fixed and forced than Biden's did.
posted by Phire at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Don't mess with the Trans Am dude little boy! here he comes!
posted by lampshade at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Is this a debate or an interview?
posted by wierdo at 6:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

It's rude to point.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:10 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan's voice is really annoying.

Very nasal.

Joe: Malarky! "My friend"

Hee!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:10 PM on October 11, 2012

On the one hand, Biden is doing well. On the other, this whole issue is not what Biden wants to be talking about.
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I like this moderator. I love Biden. Malarkey! This is awesome.
posted by insectosaurus at 6:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I think malarkey is going to start trending on twitter.
posted by gladly at 6:10 PM on October 11, 2012

"usually when there's a crisis we pull together as a nation" YEAH BIDEN
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 6:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

This isn't a debate, it's like she's interviewing Biden and letting Ryan add flavor.
posted by penduluum at 6:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

this whole issue is not what Biden wants to be talking about.

That would be babes and blow, but what's the chance of that coming up during this debate?
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Is anyone also watching the football game?
posted by drezdn at 6:11 PM on October 11, 2012

"What we should not be apologizing for is standing up for our values. And our values are, like, burning Qu'rans and stuff. Also marines."
posted by Phire at 6:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Who is this "intelligence community" that is to blame? A fourth branch of the government?

Never mind, I don wanna know the real answer to that...
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ryan is being incoherent. He keeps stopping and starting a thought and then switching to something else.
posted by winna at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan says " eleven" werid.
posted by The Whelk at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012

A noun, a verb, and Benghazi.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

I think I want to marry Martha Raditz. She just got Ryan to say America should apologize for something.
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

Wait, they didn't want more security, but somehow Ryan voted against 400 million to pay for it? Ack! They keep swapping positions, I can't keep track here!
posted by pla at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan keeps drinking his water. At this rate, he's gonna run out before the debate is over.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

That would be babes and blow, but what's the chance of that coming up during this debate?

It's early yet...
posted by wallabear at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012

"I'd actually like to move to Iran".

Quote of the debate, done.
posted by pla at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Unraveling. You keep using that word.
posted by gentian at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012

Lie #2: That the Iraqis wanted us in their country and a SOFA could have been negotiated.

And one could argue that Bradley Manning had more to do with that than Biden.
posted by homunculus at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012

Oooo moderator is getting all sassy
posted by The Whelk at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I know, right? Where did this "Ryan is the greatest looking White House candidate since John F. Kennedy"

"Hey girl, if I were still driving the Weinermobile I'd never get laid."
posted by octobersurprise at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh God they're talking about military action in Iran.
posted by winna at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh yay, Iran is the topic. We can hear two nearly equally stupid points of view on Iran!
posted by wierdo at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Good lord but I want to see what they're writing.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Radditch is a way better and more engaged moderator than Lehrer. I hope that will keep the debate more informational and truthful than the last one.
posted by marsha56 at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

hatefull: "Biiiig room with a little table..."
posted by JHarris at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden using "with all due respect" before his Malarky zinger brought this to mind.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan keeps drinking his water. At this rate, he's gonna run out before the debate is over.

Or piss himself. Game over.
posted by essexjan at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ryan keeps drinking his water.

He has to stay hydrated after the 2 marathons he ran today in six hours.
posted by drezdn at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [48 favorites]

I almost don't want to watch, because the concept of Biden in my head can't meet the reality...but maybe....
posted by hellojed at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Another lie: That Iran has fissile material that can be used to make a nuclear weapon.
posted by wierdo at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012

I seriously don't understand Ryan's response about Iran. Is that just me? It sounds so incoherent and internally inconsistent.
posted by Phire at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

The Obama administration's been blocking Ryan every step of the way since 2007.
posted by Flunkie at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

bread
milk
eggs
arugula
TP
apples
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

It sounds so incoherent and internally inconsistent.

No, that's pretty much Republican foreign policy in a nutshell.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

The look on Joe's face when Ryan complained about senior administration officials sending mixed signals was so precious I'm going to have to figure out how to make animated gifs to preserve it for all time.
posted by winna at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Poor boy is worried about his own facade unraveling.
posted by mareli at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

What you don't see is that Ryan is on a treadmill. Right now. Under the desk.
posted by shortfuse at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Or piss himself. Game over.

The old Freddy Rumsen debate technique.
posted by drezdn at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

"On a Romney administration, we would have credibility."

LOL ASK BRITAIN ABOUT THAT ONE.
posted by Phire at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Ryan, you impotent man-child, you are incoherent.
posted by angrycat at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ryan is the greatest looking White House Naval Observatory candidate since John F. Kennedy Spiro T. Agnew.
posted by kiltedtaco at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

"It's incredible." Loves me some Biden.
posted by the_bone at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden is... laughing his ass off. I like it, but do the undecideds?
posted by murfed13 at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

" incredible"
posted by The Whelk at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012

"Incredible."
posted by wallabear at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden almost lost it when Ryan said a Romney administration would have credibility re Iran. Wiiiide smile.
posted by ersatz at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012

Smiling Joe. You go guy!
posted by ericb at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

And another lie: That sanctions matter when most of the world is still willing to buy Iran's oil.
posted by wierdo at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012

Holy crap... When did Biden get such attitude? He's spankin' this little boy trying to posture in front of him!

Apparently his wife's comment last week gave him some much-needed moxie. ;)
posted by pla at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ryan, take another drink.
posted by ericb at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Biden looks like a statesman. Ryan seems like an upstart kid.
posted by gentian at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Iran Diverts Much of its Uranium for Peaceful Medical Research, Israeli Intel Says
posted by droomoord at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012

This is important stuff and Biden is, again, doing well, but a lot of low information voters have fallen asleep or changed the channel by now. This is just not the stuff Biden wants to be pounding.
posted by Justinian at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012

choice it's gin
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Joe is now lecturing on the construction of nuclear weapons and sounds so calm and rational.
posted by winna at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012

I love it when they say " my friend here"....
posted by rmless at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden knows how to make a nuke, hellz yeah
posted by hellojed at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

God, I love Biden. Can I donate somewhere specifically to buy Biden drinks?
posted by Phire at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

murfed13 : Biden is... laughing his ass off. I like it, but do the undecideds?

As an undecided... I have a whole new respect for Biden.

Fark Obama - Biden in 2012!
posted by pla at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I wish I thought this was going as well as you all seem to. Ryan is dominating the conversation, in terms of direction and in terms of clock control, just like Romney was.
posted by penduluum at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden: Ryan is totally loose butthole.
posted by cashman at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

OMG DAT GRIN.
posted by hellojed at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I don't think Biden means it when he calls Ryan his friend.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

First 'malarkey'. Now 'bluster.'
posted by ericb at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Oooh, that Biden smile.
posted by JHarris at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Again with the "My friend" if only he would start calling Ryan "My little Friend over there."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Bluster is a good word to describe the Romney/Ryan campaign
posted by I am the Walrus at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh, the Ayatollahs are spinning centrifuges faster? RUN FOR THE BUNKERS!

Does Ryan even know what centrifuges are?
posted by Phire at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

SPINNING CENTRIFUGES
posted by The Whelk at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"They're spinning the centrifuges faster." LOL
posted by gentian at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden's grin just keeps getting bigger
posted by gaspode at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012

God, Ryan...

What a schmuck.
posted by Skygazer at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012

"They're spinning their centrifuges faster"?! And twirling, twirling toward victory, no doubt.
posted by limeonaire at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

"They're spinning the centrifuges faster" is a totally credible thing to say.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Oh noes ... She just called him CONGRESSMAN Ryan! She broke the rules!
posted by ericb at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Can she moderate everything from now on?
posted by The Whelk at 6:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

The corpse in the library:
bread
milk
eggs
arugula
TP
apples

Mr. Paul Bieber
P. Bieber
Paul and Justin Bieber
posted by Room 641-A at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [20 favorites]

The Wile E. Coyote bomb!!
posted by Skygazer at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2012

Guys watch out bc they are spinning their centerfuges faster. and that means....science?
posted by rmless at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh and now the moderator is schooling Ryan, asking how exactly they're supposed to do all this magical stuff in a sarcastic voice. Ha!
posted by winna at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

GO RADDATZ. Holy cow. "If the red line is in spring, how can you solve this in two months?"
posted by Phire at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

America, elect the moderator: "Can you solve this in two months?"
posted by ersatz at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

"Bibi's been my friend for 39 years." -- Biden

How old is Paul Ryan?
posted by Phire at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

ermahgerd centerfudges!
posted by Ad hominem at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

I like that their ties are patterned in different directions.
posted by The Whelk at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Biden is... laughing his ass off. I like it, but do the undecideds?
posted by murfed13 at 8:15 PM on October 11 [+] [!]

We all love Joe here, but so far the little undecided voter tracking doohickey on CNN is souring pretty badly on just about everything he's saying on Libya and Iran, while eating up Ryan's shtick. It's not even a contest.

Ryan is incoherent, but glib and confident. I don't see how Biden's mirth is helping him without making strong points to back it up.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

BOOM! Biden just walked all over him!
posted by Vysharra at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Joe almost slipped and said this is a bunch of shit!

I am rolling on the floor!
posted by winna at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I love how Joe just mentioned that he's known Netanyahu about as long at Ryan's been alive. That's the way to establish credentials.
posted by wintermind at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

That's right, there are important people I've been friends with for 39 years. What were you doing 39 years ago, my friend?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Centrifuges? I'd love it if someone mentioned Stuxnet.
posted by drezdn at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Can we stop calling him BeBe, please?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Oh noes ... She just called him CONGRESSMAN Ryan! She broke the rules!

I was a little surprised that someone who insisted on Mister Ryan addressed her as "Martha."
posted by gladly at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

THIS IS A BUNCH OF STUFF.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I wish I thought this was going as well as you all seem to. Ryan is dominating the conversation, in terms of direction and in terms of clock control, just like Romney was.

Come on now. Really?
posted by murfed13 at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012

This is a bunch of stuff!
posted by penduluum at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012

From the Twitter feed on ABC News: Joe looks like he's writing limericks that rhyme with Malarkey.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Faster, centrifuges! Kill! Kill!

I wouldn't trust Ryan's timing estimates on anything, folks. *cough* *bluster* *malarkey* *marathon man*
posted by maudlin at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

You people realize there is perfectly good playoff baseball on that is way better than the Veep debate, right? I mean for christ's sake John and Suze are on. Keep it down.
posted by vrakatar at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"This is a bunch of stuff!" Awesome.
posted by wallabear at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm awaiting tomorrow's gif set of Ryan lip smacks.
posted by The Whelk at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012

Bebe has been a friend of mine for 34 years. You, Mr. Ryan, have nothin' on me and Bebe!
posted by ericb at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012

IIRC the centrifuges are spinning faster because USA/Israel infected them with Stuxnet...
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy: "Joe: Malarky! "My friend""

It's a bit House of Commons-esque in a delightful way. Not quite Richard Brinsley Sheridan, though:

"The Right Honourable gentleman is indebted to his memory for his jests, and to his imagination for his facts."

posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

"This is a bunch of stuff!" Biden's on fire.
posted by JHarris at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I like Biden being Biden.
posted by mazola at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Biden's job is to encourage liberals. Sounds like he's doing it.
posted by JKevinKing at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Biden: "Oh god..."
posted by wierdo at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden sounds defensive. And when I stop listening and just watch..... I don't like it.
posted by bq at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012

"Facts matter." Boom!
posted by wintermind at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Joe needs to quit laughing now, it's gonna bite him in the butt.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

winna : Oh and now the moderator is schooling Ryan, asking how exactly they're supposed to do all this magical stuff in a sarcastic voice. Ha!

Not good, actually, because Joe has held his own (by far!), and the moderator getting "sassy" will give Ryan an out tomorrow.

/ "Oh god". Dear lord, gonna bust from laughing here...
posted by pla at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012

Facts matter. Nice.
posted by ersatz at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012

"Yeah, we had BeBe over for pizza and some brews, hashed things out. We're all good."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Facts matter!
posted by ericb at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012

I hope independents like this, but regardless, god I love it.
posted by Flunkie at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Go Joe!
posted by mrzarquon at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012

Yeah, Radditz isn't gonna call him mister.
posted by shortfuse at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm so glad Biden is calling his bullshit.

He's going to get flack for "arrogantly dismissing" Ryan, but fuck it.
posted by flippant at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Paul Ryan reminds me of a night manager at Applebees.

THIS! OMG! THIS!

(Can anyone photoshop him into a waiter's white shirt/black pants?)
posted by drezdn at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Biden is just good tv. So much more watchable and relatable
posted by rmless at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Ya know I don't particuarly agree that Stuxnet was a good idea, but at least I know why Obama did it.
posted by JHarris at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

the facts matter

I want to believe.
posted by Vysharra at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

If Biden gets Sullivan to stop freaking the fuck out, and liberals to get out and vote because he's so awesome, that's enough for me.
posted by Phire at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I like how Biden's reaction to Ryan's arguments are the same as mine.
posted by The Whelk at 6:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [29 favorites]

Talking point: laughing incredulously is the new head-shaking.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012

Note that nobody mentions that Israel already has nuclear weapons.
posted by wierdo at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Biden sounds defensive? Huh, it what way?
posted by ericb at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012

Ya know I don't particuarly agree that Stuxnet was a good idea, but at least I know why Obama did it.'

Was kind of hoping Biden would take credit for it.
posted by sourbrew at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Yeah, it would be bad if, say, Pakistan or Israel got nukes. What? Really?
posted by wintermind at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

How can a nuclear armed Iran trigger a nuclear arms' race in the middle east? That doesn't even make sense. Who else even begins to have the capabilities?
posted by Phire at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

AAAHHHHH!!
posted by Skygazer at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012

'Governor Romney... He changes his mind so often, I might be wrong.'
posted by winna at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

"He changes his mind so often I could be wrong." BANG!
posted by essexjan at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

"he changes his mind so often." oh wow. he went there.
posted by saturday_morning at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

hahaha "he changes his mind so often I could be wrong."
posted by Justinian at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012

We need to move on to domestic issues-low info voters don't really care about centrifuges and "Bibi"
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Are we really in "The Day After" territory? Are we going back to Red Dawn? WOLVERINES!
posted by cashman at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2012

Romney changes his mind so often ...

ZING!
posted by ericb at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan's failure to bring up dirty bomb stuff is a major fail, and I betcha Biden knows it bigtime
posted by angrycat at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Calling Romney on his flip-flopping... Go Biden!
posted by Osrinith at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ouch. Biden's all "Governor Romney thinks the sanctions should continue. Well, I could be wrong, he changes his mind so often!" POINT.
posted by JHarris at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Hah, Biden just jumped in ahead of Ryan on the economy question.
posted by Justinian at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Note that nobody mentions that Israel already has nuclear weapons.

Sir, we're going to need you come with us. Now.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Biden: Let's take a look at THE FACTS.
posted by ericb at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

For the record, Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu is the prime minister of Israel.

BeBe Netanyahu is the break out star from my upcoming reality program "Real Housewives of Tel Aviv."
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

I will be really upset if "domestic issues" in this debate does not include a substantive and lengthy discussion of contraception, reproductive rights, rape and women's status in American society.
posted by cashman at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I like Biden okay, and I'm glad for the aggressiveness on calling bullshit, but I'm not seeing or hearing anything that would move a fence sitter. I hope he swings for the bleachers soon.
posted by Mooski at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

OH SHIT HE WENT TO THE 47%!
posted by winna at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh burn.
posted by ersatz at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

DRINK UP HE SAID IT
posted by The Whelk at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

We need to move on to domestic issues-low info voters don't really care about centrifuges and "Bibi"

Yes, all those low-info voters who are watching the VP debate
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

FORTY-SEVEN PERCENT. TAKERS VS. MAKERS. FUCK. YES.
posted by Phire at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

47%. Boom there it is.
posted by Justinian at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

Yay 47% yay
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh god, whatever you do, don't go into Twitter and type #vpdebate.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

47 percent! Everyone take a double-shot!

/ Whelk beat me to it. :(
posted by pla at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep hammering this point.
posted by penduluum at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

ANGRY JOE IS THE BEST JOE
posted by The Whelk at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [23 favorites]

HOLY HEAD ASPLOSIONS...
posted by Skygazer at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

these people are my mom & dad! LOVED IT.
posted by murfed13 at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

AND calling Romney out on paying so little income tax. Oh my god, Biden is totally killing it.
posted by Phire at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

47% boom
posted by larthegreat at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

:)
posted by mazola at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Bidens throwing the haymakers now on taxes
posted by I am the Walrus at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

YES! The 47% call out!!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Fuck yes!
posted by Babblesort at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe's killing it! Go Joe!
posted by slackdog at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

YEAH PAYBACK BITCHES DRINK IT DOWN
posted by angrycat at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Holy crap. Bring it.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

AND Grover Norquist. I could not love Biden more right now.
posted by Phire at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

BOOM!
posted by rmless at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

I like Biden okay, and I'm glad for the aggressiveness on calling bullshit, but I'm not seeing or hearing anything that would move a fence sitter. I hope he swings for the bleachers soon.

This isn't about fence sitters, it's about energizing the base which was demoralized at Obama's performance. VP debates don't move people over fences.
posted by Justinian at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Is it me, or is Joe killing it?
posted by The Bellman at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Fired-up Biden. Love it! Fuck you Grover Nordquitz!
posted by ericb at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

SICK AND TIRED!
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan's being quiet. I suspect he's letting Biden run his mouth with the thought letting him make gaffes. Or Ad fodder.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

> Bidets throwing the haymakers now on taxes

What channel are you watching?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

IF RYAN SMIRKS ANY HARDER HE'S GONNA BREAK SOMETHIHING.
posted by The Whelk at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

This is classic Biden at his best.
posted by lampshade at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Yes! No pledges to Norquist. Pledges to the middle class!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

YES, HE POINTED AT HIM!
posted by cashman at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Holy attack dog Batman!
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Angry Joe is my favorite Joe.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

"Who else even begins to have the capabilities?"

Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

but these countries would have a ways to go if they wanted to pursue weapons.
posted by striatic at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

47%? Damn, Joe, I'm actually go pour myself a glass of whiskey.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Oooh attacking Grover Norquist! Biden's amazing tonight!
posted by JHarris at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

And they DO pay more effective tax than Romney. Go Joe!
posted by insectosaurus at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012

"Do you read the statistics?" Thank you.
posted by synecdoche at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Well, you don't send a boy to fight a man.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Bidets throwing the haymakers now on taxes

Holy s**t
posted by kinnakeet at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I like Biden's recurring use of the word "facts."
posted by brundlefly at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe's off the leash! Woot woot ::waving my American flag::
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

wow... What a weaselly "heh heh", compared to Biden's hearty chuckling!
posted by pla at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012

Well, Paul Ryan just showed that he really doesn't understand how averages work. On the other hand, he did admit that unemployment is going down and the economy is growing,
posted by wintermind at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

2 months? Aren't there seasonal effects to job growth?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

The wrong direction, Ryan? Really? 700,000ish jobs a month going away to 125,000 a month being created? Sounds like the right direction to me...
posted by wierdo at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Okay Biden, pin him on the specifics of taxes. Please.
posted by cashman at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Noooo I hate it when Ryan is believable and sounds credible
posted by rmless at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Job creators MY FUCKING ASS. You've been getting trillions of dollars in tax cuts for the past 3 decades. Where the fuck are the jobs?
posted by Phire at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Who is the real Mitt Romney?
posted by ersatz at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

You don't want to bring up cars with regard to Mitt there.....
posted by The Whelk at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh dear, Ryan, don't bring up Romney's cars.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

'Mitt Romney is a car guy' says the personal trainer.

Joe rolls.
posted by winna at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oooh, don't talk about car crashes when Biden's in the room ...
posted by essexjan at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Wtf
posted by bq at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Job growth is the wrong direction, people!
posted by mudpuppie at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

A... car crash? Is this a good idea?
posted by The Bellman at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Romney's a car guy (he owns a lot of them).
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Biden is talking facts for the most part and real world examples, and Ryan is doing the "scare the electorate rhetoric" angle with a smattering of basic stump platitudes.

Ryan is an idiot if he sticks with this line.

Which is fine by me
posted by lampshade at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

My feed is probably a bit behind everyone else's, so I just came in to say one thing.

Fuck yeah Joe!
posted by figurant at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh man Biden's reaction to "Mitt Romney's a car guy" gave me the jibblies
posted by Flunkie at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Mitt Romney is a ... car guy? As opposed to a bike guy? Or a limousine guy?
posted by penduluum at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

YES RYAN EXPLOIT DEAD CHILDREN FOR POLITICAL GAIN.
posted by JHarris at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

can someone please make Joe Biden Laughing at Things a tumblr?

I would like Joe Biden Laughing at Baby Walruses and Paul Ryan's biceps and all of the things
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [20 favorites]

I don't think even Ryan believes what he's saying right now.
posted by Skygazer at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Golly, Mit will pay for a fellow Mormon's college. Mighty white of him!
posted by pla at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

So, what does Santa Mitt have to do with domestic economic policy?
posted by wintermind at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh Ryan don't go to car crashes, Biden has everyone beat there forever. Bad move
posted by rmless at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

"Wasn't the cash" - but having enough cash to pay for the college education for random strangers sure does help!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Surely that was on purpose.
posted by bq at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012

Well thank god they where lucky enough to be in the same church as Mitt, but can't all be his BFFs
posted by The Whelk at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's the eye of the tiger
It's the thrill of the fight
Risin' up to the challenge
Of our rival
And the last known survivor
Stalks his prey in the night
And he's watching us all with the
Eye of the tiger

posted by Justinian at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

WEEP FOR YOUR LIFE PUNY MAN CHILD
posted by angrycat at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

yes, how many cars does Romney have? how many car elevators? is that what you mean by upward mobility?
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"But I always say what I mean!"
posted by Room 641-A at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Giving money to your Mormon buddy charities don't count!
posted by mareli at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

is it charity if it's mandatory tithing to mormon church?
posted by murfed13 at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

OMG, BIDEN needs a cigar and a helmet.
posted by Skygazer at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

"But I always say what I mean and so does Romney."
posted by ersatz at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Holy crap, there's an audience. I thought it was an alternate dimension with three people in it.
posted by JHarris at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Hmm... on further investigation, "jibblies" apparently means the opposite of what I've heretofore thought it meant
posted by Flunkie at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan's forced chuckle after his jab at Biden was horribly mechanical and disjointed.
posted by Vysharra at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

No matter what else happens in this debate, "I always say what I mean" is a comeback for the ages..
posted by saturday_morning at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

30% of his taxes to charities? Let us see the tax returns. Let's see how much of it goes to something other than the Mormon Church.
posted by Phire at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I'm really not into older men, but I would marry Joe Biden on the spot right now.
posted by Superplin at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

"I always say what I mean - and so does Romney." nice second zing on the 47%.
posted by gatorae at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I'm speechless. Biden unleashed!!!

And now Ryan gives us a Mitt anecdote. Who the fuck cares if Romney helps one family? His tax plan would hurt millions.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I bet Ryan wishes he had an MeFi style edit window of 5 minutes to clean up his answers.
posted by lampshade at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

What the Hell was that car crash story all about?
posted by WestChester22 at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

My favourite part is Biden snickering as Ryan recites talking points.
posted by Theta States at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2012

GET OUT OF THE WAY
posted by MegoSteve at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

n's forced chuckle after his jab at Biden was horribly mechanical and disjointed.

Something very weaselly about the way he bobbed up and down.
posted by shortfuse at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012

brb looking up jibblies
posted by drezdn at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Yeah!! Smack down his sob story and get back to the real issue
posted by rmless at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"Show me something!"
posted by wintermind at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012

"Just get out of the way. Talking about how you care about people...SHOW me something. Show me a policy."

YES.
posted by Phire at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

SHOW ME SOMETHING.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012

Thank you all so much for making this a lot more entertaining.
posted by kinnakeet at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Is there a chance Biden just reaches over and just unloads one on Ryan's kisser...I'm beginning to think it might happen...

Probably not good though.
posted by Skygazer at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I LOVE YOU JOE I LOVE YOU A LOT
posted by The Whelk at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Yes! More pointing!
posted by cashman at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012

Ooooh, weak feint, going back to blaming Bush?
posted by pla at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden: I've never met two guys (Romney-Ryan) who are more down on America.
posted by humanfont at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Joe Biden things are trending 2:1 to Ryan things on twitter.
posted by drezdn at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm really not into older men, but I would marry Joe Biden on the spot right now.

Back of the line, lady.
posted by essexjan at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [28 favorites]

"The great recession that came out of the sky. Oh my gosh, where did it come from? It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card, and all of a sudden, these guys are so seized with concern about the poor."
posted by Phire at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [44 favorites]

Giving money to your Mormon buddy charities don't count!
posted by mareli at 9:28 PM on October 11 [+] [!]

Neither does donating to the George Bush Library.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Biden's first wife and baby daughter were killed in a car crash.
posted by mareli at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012

1. Land war in Asia
2. Blah blah Sicilian when death is on the line
3. Bring up car accident stories when debating Joe Fucking Biden
posted by penduluum at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [53 favorites]

just tuned in, who's winning?
posted by Wordwoman at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012

I am not even drinking and this is 1949040% more fun than the last one
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

What is this so-called pro growth plan??
posted by murfed13 at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012

How, Ryan, how????????????????
posted by benito.strauss at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012

But who brought up the car crash in the first place? I missed the context.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012

Raddatz is moderating this nicely. Kudos.
posted by wallabear at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

MARTHA LOOK....
posted by Skygazer at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I love my friend here!
posted by pla at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm gonna need a cigarette after this.
posted by hellojed at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

"By the way, can you send me some stimulus money?" HEE!
posted by Phire at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Oh, those letters, yeah.
posted by wintermind at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012

BOW!
posted by The Whelk at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012

Earmarks burn.
posted by ersatz at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh snaaaap you did ask for that stimulus money.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I'm tired of the blaming Bush whine. 1st, it's true, 2nd, the GOP brought up Carter for 12 freakin' years!!!!
posted by JKevinKing at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Ryan: "Let us not forget when Obama took office there was one party control."

SO MUCH RAGE DO YOU WISH YOU COULD FORGET THE WORD "FILIBUSTER" I KNOW I DO
posted by JHarris at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

> But who brought up the car crash in the first place? I missed the context.

Ryan
posted by mrzarquon at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012

HA HA HA I LOVE YOU JOE
posted by angrycat at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012

On the YouTube stream:

FACT: Ryan voted for TARP
posted by dobi at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Biden is on a tear.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"I wish he would just tell-- be a little more candid."


FUCK YES.
posted by brundlefly at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

He calls out requests for stimulus money Ryan made, talking about how it would create jobs.

'I wish he would just tell [HUGE PAUSE] be more candid.'
posted by winna at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I don't know, Joe, I'm gonna need to see longform versions of these "letters".
posted by shortfuse at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012

I like the moderator so much! She is fantastic - really keeping the debate moving on a lot of different topics.
posted by insectosaurus at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Just tell - be a little more candid.
posted by bq at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012

But who brought up the car crash in the first place? I missed the context.

Ryan used a car crash anecdote to demonstrate Romney's generosity.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012

"I wish he would just tell the truth... be a little more candid!"
posted by pla at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

(The whine coming from Repiblicans every time Bush is brought up
posted by JKevinKing at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012

OMG!

Biden calling out Ryan for asking for money from a program he's trashing at every opportunity.

Go JOE !!
posted by marsha56 at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

"It's a better batting average than investing bankers get."

BURN.
posted by Phire at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Okay okay you guys made me turn on the fucking debate. Fuck you.
posted by rtha at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

well... I don't feel as beat up tonight
posted by tyllwin at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh Biden, get him on the China borrowing, please. China owns only a small part of our debt.
posted by wierdo at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

This is kind of wild.
posted by cashman at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"By the way, any letter you send me I'll entertain." SNAPTOWN, USA, POPULATION: BIDEN
posted by jason_steakums at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [45 favorites]

I get the feeling Joe could host a really fun roast.
posted by The Whelk at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

"by the way, any letter you send me I'll entertain" biden
posted by bizwool at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Biden for President!
posted by robbyrobs at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

She is a great moderator, so refreshing after last time
posted by rmless at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

"Any letter you send me I will entertain."
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012

What the fuck, is Ryan an idiot?

"I appreciate that Joe?!" WTF, how could he think that would be a good idea?
posted by amuseDetachment at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012

BIDEN, HILARIOUS
posted by kiltedtaco at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

> Ryan used a car crash anecdote to demonstrate Romney's generosity

Dang. Romney was in quite a car crash, too. Weird to bring it up.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

This is the stuff Biden wants to be talking about. I just wish it had come before the (to low info voters) Libya/Iran snorefest.
posted by Justinian at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan brought up a family in a car crush in an anecdote about how big Romney's heart is.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I only wanted to watch it for 5 mins and I'm hooked. Please advise.
posted by ersatz at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012

Okay okay you guys made me turn on the fucking debate. Fuck you.

But this one is not as dispiriting!
posted by winna at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012

Is it Opposite Day?
posted by bq at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012

"These programs were there for her. Which is why I want to institute a voucher system."
posted by Phire at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Ryan is a lying piece of shit.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

"Medicare and Social Security are going bankrupt"—that's the opposite of what Mitt Romney said in the first debate, if I recall correctly.
posted by limeonaire at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012

Listen tumblr, tomorrow you'd better be NOTHING BUT THIS OKAY.


" I don't hate social programs! I just want to make them small enough to drown in the bathtub!"
posted by The Whelk at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Oh my god the $716B is the exact same fucking redistribution that you have in your own plan you lying sack of shit.
posted by Phire at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Also, Ryan talk as if he's with the Socialist Party.
posted by ersatz at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012

hey this is entertaining
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012

FIRED UP

READY TO GO

YOU TAKE 'IM, BIDEN!
posted by meese at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

$716 billion again. GET HIM JOE!!
posted by I am the Walrus at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012

NO THAT'S NOT WHAT YOURE SAYNG AT ALL
posted by The Whelk at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012

This debate is less dispiriting because two people actually showed up for this one.
posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Biden's about to brutalize Paul Ryan over the $716 billion and the PAB. Oh, yeah. Mr. Sanders (I-VT) has a one-sentence fix to the Social Security "problem".
posted by wintermind at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Do you remember the episode of The Office where Michael Scott went to the shareholder's meeting and sat on the Big Table with the Chairman of the Board? And made a complete tit of himself ...?
posted by essexjan at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I've got a credible solution!

1. Raise the SS tax cap.
2. That's it.
posted by penduluum at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

"I heard that death panel argument from Sarah Palin." Ha!
posted by Phire at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Ooh palin burnnnnn
posted by rmless at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Hehehe compared him to Sarah Palin
posted by The Whelk at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

HA HA DEATH PANELS
posted by triggerfinger at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Aww snap, he invoked Palin! Refill those shot glasses, folks!
posted by pla at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Obama should closely study Biden's performance tonight, minus the maniacal laughing. (I love it, but not very presidential.)
posted by murfed13 at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012

Shawty wanna draaaank.
posted by cashman at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Now Joe calls out the death panel nonsense!

He explains how that 7B credit came from and mentioned it was AARP endorsed.
posted by winna at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012

oh my God did he really just compare him to Palin?
posted by gatorae at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Oh Jesus, Ryan pulls out the $716 billion again. The care providers and insurance companies agreed to it in exchange for the individual mandate. And says we'd "have" to cut benefits 25% when in fact we could just remove the cap on SS tax and have it solvent to 2080 or something like that.
posted by wierdo at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan's got serious dry-mouth. Expect to see him start panting soon.
posted by wallabear at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe has turned to the camera to address US DIRECTLY. Good showmanship.
posted by The Whelk at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

oh awesome he called the death panel dogwhistle for what it was.
posted by angrycat at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Eeeek Biden just tried to hypnotize me
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Can Biden just do the two presidential debates with Mitts? That would make me happy.
posted by Farce_First at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

RYANBOT> INITIATE TALKING POINT PROTOCOL. BEEP.
RYANBOT> MAKE PERSONAL ANECDOTE TO RELATE WITH HU-MAN AUDIENCE.
RYANBOT> MAKE REFERENCE TO PAPABOT 2000.
RYANBOT> REMIND AUDIENCE OF AGE. I AM ONE OF YOU. YOU ARE ONE OF US.
posted by JHarris at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Did somebody say PALIN? Let's all be glad this is all she's up to these days.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan moves his mouth like an uncomfortable lizard.
posted by The Whelk at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

This is why you don't pick a running mate from the House of Representatives.
posted by drezdn at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

"Who're you gonna believe?"
posted by wintermind at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012

<3 <3 <3 <3 Biden <3 <3

also, Ryan just looks like he's taking notes, like there's going to be a quiz and Ms. Hammerschmidt is going to mark him down for missing all the numbers.
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

"Folks. Follow your instinct."
posted by Phire at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012

Now they got a new plan. Heh.
posted by ersatz at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan's only got about an inch of water left in that glass. Maybe Joe will offer him his glass.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Justinian: This debate is less dispiriting because two people actually showed up for this one.

Three! Moderator Raddatz, holding her own.
posted by troika at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"Who are you going to believe?"

YOU, JOE! YOU!
posted by Room 641-A at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012

STAY IN THE FRAME
posted by cashman at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Is Ryan getting paler?
posted by rmless at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan's throat is constricting, moisture not helping, curls into fetal position
posted by any major dude at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012

Their ideas are old, and their ideas are bad.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Biden just spoke directly at me. It was magical.
posted by Skygazer at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

THEIR IDEAS ARE BAD
posted by kiltedtaco at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012

If I was playing a drinking game I'd be dead by now.
posted by The Whelk at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [23 favorites]

"Hands in the cookie jar" - such a memorized line.
posted by Miko at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Did somebody say PALIN? Let's all be glad this is all she's up to these days.

I'll buy Ryan's fitness book too as long as there are no words.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Can Biden just do the two presidential debates with Mitts? That would make me happy.

I'm confident Obama will bring it next time.
posted by marsha56 at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012

KFF is releasing three Medicare/health care-related polls tomorrow morning.

I work there, but all I had to do with these was posting them to our site this afternoon and scheduling them. They're...interesting.
posted by rtha at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"They got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, turning Medicare into a piggy bank"—mixed metaphors much?
posted by limeonaire at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Ryan needs to get someone to tag in for him desperately. He's taking a beating in there.
posted by vuron at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012

I am hoping that, by the end of this debate, I see Joe Biden holding Paul Ryan's still-beating heart in his hand, blood dripping from his gleaming white teeth from using them to tear open that smirking punk's chest.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [24 favorites]

'Mr Vice President, I know you're under a lot of duress.'

what is that about?!?! that was baffling and weird.
posted by winna at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

He just zipped him shut!
posted by The Whelk at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Love Biden's laugh
posted by Yowser at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"I know you're under a lot of duress"? "We'd be better served if people didn't interrupt"?

Where do I sign up to punch Ryan in the face?
posted by Phire at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Wow...Ryan...just not even...whoa. What a dick.
posted by dejah420 at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh, the laughter. (From Joe Biden, not me!)
posted by DarlingBri at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan will take the money from the rich and give it to the poor.
posted by ersatz at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm beginning to think Joe had a little nip before he came out tonight.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012

So is anybody watching the CNN thing with the undecided voters opinion line? What do y'all make of that?
posted by asperity at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012

I need an entire folder of Biden just looking at Ryan with total, steaming contempt.
posted by The Whelk at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

I'm confident Obama will bring it next time.

I've thought since the debate that it was a strategy to see what Romney would be bringing and then utterly kill in the next two.
posted by hippybear at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

"Hands in the cookie jar" - such a memorized line.

God YES.
posted by JHarris at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Calling out the lies! I love it.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I know you're under duress. 'FUCK YOU, RYAN' Grin on Biden's face just then.
posted by ericb at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012

All that said gang, the numbers go up when Ryan talks. We're fucked. The populace loves him.
posted by dejah420 at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012

I fucking love you Joe Biden.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I don't know. Joe might be laughing too much... but he sure is bringing it and not allowing lies to go unanswered.
posted by MegoSteve at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

> I'm beginning to think Joe had a little nip before he came out tonight

I think Ryan took too much Adderal.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012

I don't know how this is reading to the public at large but I sure am heartened seeing him call Ryan on his bullshit.
posted by penduluum at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe is a teetotaler.
posted by The Whelk at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Biden should tell him - stop lying and I'll stop interrupting you - deal?
posted by any major dude at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

If joe is drink, Paul is high. Would explain the cottonmouth.
posted by rmless at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

So is anybody watching the CNN thing with the undecided voters opinion line? What do y'all make of that?

What is it doing?
posted by murfed13 at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2012

Andrew Sullivan has a huge chubby right now.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

LOVE that he keeps talking to the camera!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012

i am full of a savage joy right now. Right fucking here and now.
posted by angrycat at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Laughing Joe Biden on Twitter.
posted by changeling at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012

Careful, Joe - Starting to look like kicking a puppy here. Winning by too much often hurts you rather than helps...
posted by pla at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe Biden schools us all about managing the Social Security with Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan.
posted by winna at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan looks like Jeff Probst after 38 days on the island and his suit doesn't fit anymore and he's desperate to make his case at tribal council.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Laughing Joe Biden.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Side-by-side comparison of Medicare Premium Support proposals, as of July 2012, including Ryan's.
posted by rtha at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I think Biden was specifically coached to interrupt when Ryan lies, but after the last debate I'm wondering if the media narrative once this concludes is going to involve Biden being disrespectful and flustered.
posted by palidor at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Arithmetic!
posted by wintermind at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012

Laughing Joe Biden on Twitter.



YAAAAY THE GODS OF THE INTERNET HEARD YAAAAAY
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012

" I was there in 1983 when you where doing awesome bong hits at Delta Felta Thigh" being the operative subtext
posted by The Whelk at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

"If it did keep pace with healthcare costs, there will be no savings."

I love a man who understands logic.
posted by Phire at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Thank you! Nobody wants their parents to have to shop for coverage. Sure, have an elderly person poring through fine print for pages and pages on end.
posted by cashman at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

OMG, love the callout on what the voucher program actually means.
posted by Superplin at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Where do I sign up to punch Ryan in the face?

Ryan has an eminently punchable face. He just radiates smug.
posted by kagredon at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

At least if there is Romney win and all the resultant screaming and dying we will have this moment
posted by angrycat at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I love how Biden addresses the camera ... Talks at times directly to all of us at home.
posted by ericb at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm actually really liking this moderator. Gets in there, grabs the reins, new question. boom.
posted by Theta States at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Awesome. Biden pointed out that if the Medicare voucher would cover all health care cost increases, it can't by definition save money.
posted by wierdo at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Is Ryan seriously lecturing about fear mongering? Sweet Jesus, how shameless.
posted by brundlefly at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

So is anybody watching the CNN thing with the undecided voters opinion line? What do y'all make of that?


That this SNL skit is pretty fucking accurate.

Speaking of drunk, Fox's American Dad twitter account is on the stuff.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Our choice! Starve in the gutter, or in the alley!
posted by asperity at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Marthaaaaa!
posted by pla at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Fox is gonna whine so hard about how rude Biden is with all his interrupting.
posted by shortfuse at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2012

MARTHA

MARTHA

MARTHA

HE'S LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH MARTHA
posted by The Whelk at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Aww snap, he invoked Palin!

Sarah Palin Is a Goddess
posted by homunculus at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2012

Jinx!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2012

THIS is a great debate.
posted by Lutoslawski at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm really not into older men, but I would marry Joe Biden on the spot right now.

Back of the line, lady.


Right now, I'd be willing to join a harem, just to be able to get close to him. He is NAILING this debate.

This is his element, and he's reveling in it.
posted by Superplin at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe Biden speaks directly to me. He is beguiling me!
posted by winna at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Good idea addressing the bottom line.
posted by ersatz at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2012

The talking-to-camera thing is becoming off-putting.
posted by penduluum at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I love Joe, and I hate to say this, but I think he's kind of getting buried here in terms of sheer punching power.

We shall see we what the punditocracy says, though, I guess.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012

"This is what politicians do when they don't have a record to run on. They fearmonger."

Oh thanks, Ryan, for explaining the GOP platform to me.
posted by Phire at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Wait, wait, wait. The man who's only ever had 2 bills passed in the House just accused Joe Biden of not having a record on which to run?
posted by wintermind at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

Ryan telling Biden he "doesn't have a record to run on" is just priceless. Fucking priceless.
posted by flippant at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Still waiting for tonight's "Big Bird moment"
posted by mediated self at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012

I can't believe that Ryan has the nerve to say Biden is trying to scare people.
posted by murfed13 at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Raise my retirement age. Fuck you Paul Ryan. I want to retire at 65. I'm not spending my late 60s greeting shoppers as a Walmart greeting.
posted by humanfont at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

The people participating in the CNN line...hate Biden. Love Ryan. They are not believing Biden, and are swallowing Ryan's bullshit; hook, line, sinker.
posted by dejah420 at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2012

I love Joe, and I hate to say this, but I think he's kind of getting buried here in terms of sheer punching power.

Really? We are obviously seeing this debate through VERY different lenses.
posted by Superplin at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

homunculus, what, do you have the internet hooked up to your VEINS?!

Biden: "I gave you a simple answer!"
posted by JHarris at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

WFMU's Terre T on Twitter just likened Paul Ryan to Joffrey Baratheon and now I cannot unsee it.
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [27 favorites]

I do have to say that Ryan is taking far more than his share of the speaking time, for whatever reason. And it's mostly bullshit.
posted by flippant at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2012

MEDICARE HAS BEEN GOOD TO ME, SO WE HAVE TO RIP OUT ITS GUTS AND REPLACE IT WITH FUNBUX.
posted by mccarty.tim at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

Ryan looks like the goody two shoes who bullies in secret. So used to being deferred to he feels he ought rule just cuz he always has. Romney as well, but he is uncomfy with it.
posted by vrakatar at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's so obvious that Biden really, really does care about the American public.
posted by murfed13 at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

The people on the CNN line are ignorant "independents" (read Republican voters who don't like the label). They aren't the people needed to win.
posted by Justinian at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

I love the pointing and gesturing. Don't sit there - say it and visually turn the attention of your words to their campaign. Yes.
posted by cashman at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012

The people participating in the CNN line...hate Biden. Love Ryan. They are not believing Biden, and are swallowing Ryan's bullshit; hook, line, sinker.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Biden's spoken two and a half minutes more per CNN's timer.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012

The talking-to-camera thing is becoming off-putting.

Really? I love it. He takes advantage of it at the right times.
posted by ericb at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

If we lowered the medicare eligibility age to 60 think of all the jobs that would free up!
posted by mareli at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012

The people participating in the CNN line...hate Biden. Love Ryan. They are not believing Biden, and are swallowing Ryan's bullshit; hook, line, sinker.

Seriously? That's depressing.
posted by Flunkie at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

They need to talk about reproductive rights, I wanna see Biden hulk out.
posted by lydhre at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

Fox is gonna whine so hard about how rude biden is with all his interrupting.

Maybe, but the main reason Romney "impressed" people in the first debate was his "Alpha-ness." Biden is pulling from that same well.
posted by drezdn at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Too many numbers. Fewer numbers, please!
posted by mudpuppie at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden should back off on the interruptions though. He's coming off kind of pushy.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2012

When has the Obama administration EVER said "Don't worry about it"?
posted by Phire at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan tries to talk directly to the middle class.

It... is not successful.
posted by winna at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Well, CNN is depressing, so.
posted by Medieval Maven at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2012

Eddie Munster, you are such a smug, little man! The Bidenrator has steamrolled you.
posted by ericb at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Please, please nail him on the specifics of the tax plan they have yet to give.
posted by cashman at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

WATCH OUT MIDDLE CLASS,

HE JUST SAID THAT

JUST AFTER ACCUSING PEOPLE IF SCARE MONGERING
posted by The Whelk at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

(So is that scene from Blazing Saddles the new RickRoll? Not that I'm complaining.)
posted by maudlin at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Where I come from, overseas, which is Lake Superior what
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

If we lowered the medicare eligibility age to 60 think of all the jobs that would free up!

I know of one for sure- my Dad is eligible to retire as a Florida schoolteacher but will not retire until he is eligible for Medicare. If he could be eligible today, he'd probably do so, and move up here to be closer to his grandson and bother me all the time....you know what, never mind.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Does anyone know how that CNN audience was selected?
posted by marsha56 at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Jaduncan, have my $100 ready because Mittens will be your next President.
posted by RedShrek at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden is very good at looking at the camera and almost winking.
posted by bq at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

Okay, don't fucking bring Canada into this. Your effective tax rate is ridiculous thanks to all your tax haven laws. The nominal rate has NO bearing on the reality of corporate tax avoidance. What a load of bull.
posted by Phire at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Hey Ryan, something like 90% of small businesses are actually side jobs and hobbies.
posted by wierdo at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Wha'wha? Ryan: "Where I come from - Overseas - Lake Superior - Canada -?"
posted by Miko at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Jesus Fucking Christ - RAISE MY FUCKING TAXES. Every goddamn year, my husband and I are SHOCKED when we hit the Social Security ceiling. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Paul Ryan comes from overseas. He's a foreigner, he just said it.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

Hey, I hated (or at least, completely disregarded) Biden before tonight... But how can you listen to this and not respect him?

...Then again, I hated Ryan too. Haven't changed my mind about him, yet.
posted by pla at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I love how Ryan's comparing apples, oranges, grapes, and cucumbers as he tosses-out numbers about tax rates.
posted by wintermind at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

If CNN is accurate, it seems like Romney/Ryan's bump is all about validating the things people say are wrong with American politics. That we don't like policy, that we don't need facts, that we just want empty promises with no plans to back them up.
posted by mccarty.tim at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Hey, Lake Superior is now a Sea... All right then..
posted by HuronBob at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Yes please nail him on the tax plan that exists entirely in vauge generalities.
posted by The Whelk at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

I see Biden's perfected his ”mothafucka WHAT?!?” double-take.
posted by ApathyGirl at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

He needs to be pushy
!!!
posted by JKevinKing at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

The people on the CNN line are ignorant "independents" (read Republican voters who don't like the label). They aren't the people needed to win.

SERIOUSLY. I could count on one hand all of the left-leaning people I know who spout that "Oh, I consider myself an independent..." stuff, it's Republicans all the way down.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

SCHOOL 'EM LUNCHBOX!!!!
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH "LOOPHOLES" MORON.
posted by vrakatar at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

We are obviously seeing this debate through VERY different lenses.

Well, I'm trying to see it through the lens of the 'low-information voter', of people who haven't got a clue about the details these guys are bringing up, in terms of how things sound more than what their actual content is -- the standpoint of a worryingly large chunk of the electorate, I think.

I hope I'm wrong, I really do. Again, we'll see.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Raise my retirement age. Fuck you Paul Ryan. I want to retire at 65. I'm not spending my late 60s greeting shoppers as a Walmart greeting.

Unless you've already retired, you've missed the boat on that one.
posted by Jahaza at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Whoa, you know it's 2012 I guess when the GOP VP candidate wants the U.S. tax system to be more like Canada's.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

MARTHA THANK YOU FOR READING MY MIND
posted by The Whelk at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden's looking at Ryan like he's something he scraped off his shoe.
posted by marxchivist at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012

I like how Biden just blows through all the shit out of Ryan's mouth.

He's like "BIDEN SMASH!!"
posted by Skygazer at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

"Do you actually HAVE the specifics?" GO RADDATZ.
posted by Phire at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

OH FUCK YOU RYAN
posted by cashman at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012

HEY PAUL! GIVE US SPECIFICS!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden = ROFLHAO
posted by murfed13 at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012

RYAN: "Enough with the fearmongering, Joe Bogey-man."

[10 minutes later]

RYAN: [raises flashlight below chin] "LOOK OUT, MIDDLE CLASS, THE TAXES ARE COMING FOR YOUUUU."
posted by Rhaomi at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Oh, oh, now Joe looked right at me! It's like the Magic Mirror on Romper Room!
posted by Room 641-A at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Specifics, yes!
posted by mareli at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012

"Do you actually have the specifics or are you still working on it and that's why you won't tell voters?" Holy shit.
posted by essexjan at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Do you have the specifics?

REAGAN!!!

/ Take another drink.
posted by pla at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012

Do you have a plan? Bingo! Go mod!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012

Wow, a moderator who doesn't sit there looking dazed.
posted by Justinian at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Moderator: "Do you have the specifics?"

Ryan: "No."
posted by wintermind at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

yay for Raddatz for trying to get specifics. Joe, just keep saying "Do you have the specifics?" say nothing else. Just keep saying it.
posted by cashman at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2012

"Can I translate?"
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I want to pop Paul Ryan square in the mush, Popeye-style.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

No specifics again.
posted by ersatz at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012

SPECIFICS
posted by flippant at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Start with the wealthy, WTF!
posted by mareli at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012

I like how Biden's all, can I talk when the kid's table is done? SPECIFICS, WHIPPERSNAPPERS.
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

" you guarantee this math will add up?"

SASSY
posted by The Whelk at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Martha is really great.
posted by Lutoslawski at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"I'll come back in a second, right?" Oh Ryan, no one likes a wheedler.
posted by Phire at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012

Joey, we're going to need one or two of those morons to keep the White House.
posted by Mooski at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012

Awesome, Radditz just fucking moves this shit along. SHe's putting Lehrer to shame...
posted by Skygazer at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"Let me tell you what else they count as small businesses. HEDGE FUNDS."
posted by Phire at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Woooo specific examples from Joe woooooo
posted by The Whelk at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2012

Attacking Mitt's tax record, nice.
posted by ersatz at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2012

Whoa..the moderator is calling him on his "no specifics" tax plan. Man I could kiss this moderator.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2012

"you guarantee this math will add up???"

hahahaha
posted by Theta States at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2012

Martha Raddatz fucking rocks. We need a new Cabinet post just for her.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I want to pop Paul Ryan square in the mush, Popeye-style.

It seems to be a universal feeling.
posted by Skygazer at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan only has one sip of water left. THEN WHAT WILL HAPPEN?
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

...and Joe lowers the boom by calling out the middle class tax deductions that Romney-Ryan intends to eliminate.
posted by wintermind at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2012

Yes, Martha Radditz for permanent debate moderator, please.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

" done a coule of times!" awful little snot
posted by The Whelk at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

Ask for specifics Joe!
posted by cashman at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

Go Joe! Gods, I love Biden so much. So much. Speaking truth to bullshit.
posted by dejah420 at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"Oh now you're Jack Kennedy?"

AMAZING.
posted by Phire at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

"Sir, I knew Jack Kennedy..."
posted by synecdoche at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"Oh now you're Jack Kennedy"
posted by hellojed at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

AHHHHH!! NOW YOU'RE JACK KENNEDY.
posted by Skygazer at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Oooh! Awesome callback of the ol' "You're no Kennedy" line!
posted by Miko at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I'm not spending my late 60s greeting shoppers as a Walmart greeting.

Eh, that's better than how I envision spending my 60s: digging trash out of landfills for fuel to burn.

This is, I hope, hyperbole, but it seems in keeping with the Romney/Ryan approach to truth in campaigning.
posted by audi alteram partem at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh, now you're Jack Kennedy?!
posted by gaspode at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

OH NOW YOU'RE JACK KENNEDY!!! Just reach over and slap him, Joe! YES!
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"Oh, now you're Jack Kennedy!?"
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan has started to get flustered.

'Oh, now you're Jack Kennedy?' Joe asks. LOL
posted by winna at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden: Oh now your Jack Kennedy.
posted by humanfont at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan speaks about bipartisanship what
posted by ersatz at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

IT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE

IT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE

IT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE
posted by triggerfinger at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

JACK KENNEDY AAAHAHAHAHAHA
posted by penduluum at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

now you're Jack Kennedy?
posted by howfar at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

"Oh, now yer Jack Kennedy!"
posted by JHarris at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

That isn't water.
posted by vrakatar at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

"Oh, now you're Jack Kennedy?"

Angry Biden might be my favorite Biden.
posted by kagredon at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

NOW YOU'RE JACK KENNEDY! (note to future debaters... never go there)
posted by murfed13 at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh now you're Jack Kennedy?
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

DEMAGOGUE IS NOT A VERB!
posted by synecdoche at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

How does Ryan get away with not mentioning any specifics—at all?
posted by flippant at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

What Biden is doing tonight is what I've been aching for Obama to do for the last four years. Call them out on their bullshit! Don't keep letting them get away with fucking us over and lying about it.
posted by marsha56 at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

Romney shat all over Massachussetts.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

YES, bringing up Romney's approval ratings in Mass.
posted by Phire at 6:53 PM on October 11, 2012

WFMU's Terre T on Twitter

Damn you. For a moment I thought Terre Thaemlitz was doing a show on WFMU.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ryan: Elect us...we will give you the details later.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I swear Ryan has a plan as much as I have prepared a plan.
posted by ersatz at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan admitted that they'd cut the mortgage interest deduction for high income people.
posted by winna at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"Can you guarantee that you won't cut the mortgage deduction?" "We're gonna close loopholes." You weasel.
posted by Phire at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

people equal businesses! Drink!
posted by pla at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Finally calling out the Republicans on small businesses! About time!
posted by wintermind at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

HOLY SHIT! IS A DEBATE SUPPOSED TO BE THIS MUCH FUN!! I'M READY TO DROP KICK MY TV.

BIDEN SMASH!! RARRR!!!
posted by Skygazer at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

Get rid of the mortgage deductions on second and third houses, and houses with car elevators.
posted by mareli at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Math is hard.
posted by pla at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ersatz - no way. I would vote for YOUR plan.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012

I hope #nowyourejackkennedy starts trending.
posted by insectosaurus at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

AHHH THE AWESOME IS JUST RUSHING PAST ME
posted by The Whelk at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Holy moly, I would not want to debate Joe Biden.
posted by figurant at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

'That's another math question - how do you do that?'

ha!
posted by winna at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Damnit, nail him on specifics. Ryan just will not propose specifics!
posted by cashman at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2012

Tomorrow's meme: MATH.
posted by The Whelk at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

So glad I voted for Biden in the primary that time. You're welcome.
posted by theredpen at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

KICK HIS LIMP LITTLE ASS, JOE!
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012

I'd hate to have to split a dinner check with Republican Douchebag of Wisconsin
posted by bizwool at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

This moderator kicks much ass.
posted by dejah420 at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Ryan admitted that they'd cut the mortgage interest deduction for high income people.


Class warfare.
posted by vrakatar at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe's awesome but he needs to shut up just a bit. Just a bit. Just a tiny bit.
posted by wallabear at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH

BECAUSE WE MIGHT HAVE TO BATTLE THE MIGHTY HUN
posted by The Whelk at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Ryan to the Marines: "I will cut you"
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

WW1? Really?
posted by whorl at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

do the MATHS, you MALARKISTS.
posted by Theta States at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

OH YOU JERK

YOU JERK

BIPARTISANSHIP IS A WORD THAT SHOULD BURN YOUR LYING LIPS
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

Biden is doing a really good job of making it look like he and Martha are totally befuddled by Ryan.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm really worried that Biden is about to say: "Oh Fuuuck you." Seriously.
posted by murfed13 at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

I swear Ryan has a plan as much as I have prepared a plan.

His level of preparedness makes him look like the anti-Batman.
posted by audi alteram partem at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

WFP ALL THE WAY IN NYC.
posted by vrakatar at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2012

Holy shit.
posted by amuseDetachment at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2012

OH FUCK.

"It meant we've been looking for bipartisanship for a long time"

This guy has no relationship with truth.
posted by flippant at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Ryan really doesn't like being challenged. He looks angry and scared. He really seems like a bully.
posted by howfar at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Joe - please be nice to the moderator. She's totally helping you by simply doing her job.

BIDEN SMASH! I'm getting this tattooed on my arm.
posted by Farce_First at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

What Biden is doing tonight is what I've been aching for Obama to do for the last four years. Call them out on their bullshit! Don't keep letting them get away with fucking us over and lying about it.

Biden has a lot more wiggle room than Obama for this sort of thing. Plus, I think (as the... Esquire?... article linked in the previous debate thread suggested) Biden genuinely enjoys it. Obama hates the performance aspect of these debates, which are ultimately mostly about showmanship. Unfortunately, well, they're mostly about showmanship, and that's the world you have to live in. Biden, on the other hand, wakes up every day itching to do his thing in front of an audience. Not, I think, out of narcissism, but because he is the kind of extrovert who genuinely enjoys the chance to get his message out and connect with a crowd. They're his battery charger.
posted by Superplin at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [41 favorites]

Biden / Raddatz 2016
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

Ryan has a full glass of water again.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012

ENACT CHARMING WAR STORY MODE
posted by The Whelk at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

uuuhh. Careful. Don't yell at Martha.
posted by marsha56 at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012

I hope Martha Raddatz gets ALL the job offers and money.
posted by Phire at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I'm really worried that Biden is about to say: "Oh Fuuuck you." Seriously.

Christmas coming early? PRICELESS.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Time for another rehearsed anecdote from Ryan.
posted by hippybear at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Surge? In Afghanistan? I thought the surge was in Iraq?
posted by benito.strauss at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012

Moderator asks why not leave now. This woman has bigger stones than any of us. Truth to power sister.
posted by humanfont at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

Did Ryan really mean that Romney-Ryan would make cuts -- which is how I first heard it -- or was he itemizing alleged reductions in force due to Democratic policy proposals?
posted by wintermind at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012

Tomorrow's meme: MATH.

I think you mean ARITHMETIC.
posted by Superplin at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

That is to say, I want Biden / Raddatz 2016. I don't think she's taking sides.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

What gains have we gotten in a foreign country? Are we now claiming ownership? I'm fucking confused. What gains have we gotten in Iraq?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

This year's fighting season.
posted by box at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Ryan really doesn't like being challenged. He looks angry and scared. He really seems like a bully.

The cognitive dissonance between here and conservative sites is amusing.
posted by Jahaza at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I love how Biden keeps looking at the moderator all "are you HEARING this shit?"
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Another Ryan misconception (commonly held): The Taliban need refuge in Afghanistan. In reality, they have plenty of space to operate in Pakistan's (in name, anyway) Federally Administrated Tribal Areas. That's where they're operating from now. Do they plan to invade Pakistan as well?
posted by wierdo at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Indians!
posted by mudpuppie at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012

Our mighty navy will deny teh terrorz control of the seas!
posted by wintermind at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012

Back to war.

When are they going to get to the lady-bits? Come on, Martha bring on the women's right issues.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Martha Raddatz rocks.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ryan has a full glass of water again.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? Is this how they're going to fix the economy, by alchemy? Turning bullshit into gold?
posted by essexjan at 6:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

kinda sums up the debate
posted by Phatty Lumpkin at 6:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

Ha, it's the same format as before as when Ryan tried to derail the argument with a charming personal story and then Joe comes in with:

MY STORY IS MORE DIRECT AND AUTHENTIC ALSO HERE'S SOME ACTUAL FACTS.
posted by The Whelk at 6:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

But a helicopter is a vehicle, Joe!

Oh, Joe Biden and his delightful gaffes!
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Not that the GOP needed more assholes, but I'm glad Ryan is getting a new one torn in.
posted by sarastro at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Dang, Biden just did a nice job on turning the personal responsibility thing around on a Republican with the Afghanistan question.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

BEST MODERATOR EVAR. (in my adult life anyway)
posted by drowsy at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I occasionally see this look on Ryan's face when he's listening to Joe talk--just a tiny glimmer-- where I swear he realizes just how wrong he is. Though I think that it's more likely that he just wishes he was on the other team because the message is so much better to win with.
posted by goHermGO at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ryan has a full glass of water again.

He is magic.
posted by drezdn at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm waiting for Paul Ryan to start doing the Gotta Pee dance.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Our mighty navy will deny teh terrorz control of the seas!

Totally didn't you know there's a giant terrorist navy sailing around capturing our yachts and ocean kayaks and giving the people arm burns. :( :( :(
posted by winna at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Great now I am all into this and missing the Yankees on the radio, you fucks.
posted by vrakatar at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I love how Biden keeps pulling a Jim Halpert, looking at the camera like "can you believe the shit coming out of this asshole's mouth?"
posted by nushustu at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

What, uh ... what's the matter with Ryan's eyes? Is he trying to work up a tear for the cameras?
posted by penduluum at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

No one believes that about the Kabul government being able to defend themselves by 2014.
posted by Jahaza at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012

cant believe that Babyface just tried to pull rank about visits to war zones...does he not know what vp does?
posted by dejah420 at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I bet when this is over, Ryan is going to lock himself in the bathroom and have a little cry.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Okay, I move we add Ryan making a fake "personal anecdote" to the take-a-drink list. Any seconds?
posted by pla at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Charlie Pierce on Twitter: "ESQPolitics: Paul Ryan has a friend in Afghanistan! What a guy."
posted by Phire at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Some of my best friends are reservists.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Ryan Handed Romney's Latest Political Positions Before Walking On Stage
posted by gaspode at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

" we don't want to stay but we don't want to leave so our plan is to make sure we spend as much money as possible before we're forced to put an end to the black hole of embezzlement and failure that is the US forgiern theatre"
posted by The Whelk at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

drezdn: "Ryan has a full glass of water again.

He is magic."

Nah, it just trickled down.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [64 favorites]

Obama's policy is bad? Compared to 2000-2008, I'll take it?
posted by benito.strauss at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

"We don't want to broadcast to our enemies - put a date on your calendars, we'll leave and you can come back."

Is Ryan literally stupid? Your imaginary enemies will still hate you a few months later.
posted by Phire at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Yes, Ryan, they will never notice us leaving Afghanistan if we don't tell them the date ahead of time.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]

God, I'm putting a picture of Biden laughing at Ryan on my wall. It just makes me so happy.
posted by Skygazer at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"MARTHA - THAT'S A BIZARRE STATEMENT." BULLDOG BIDEN!
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh jesus christ fine I'll turn off the football game and watch this shit
posted by nathancaswell at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I love how Biden keeps pulling a Jim Halpert, looking at the camera like "can you believe the shit coming out of this asshole's mouth?"

Classic Scranton power move.
posted by drezdn at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [41 favorites]

I don't really like the new format, let's just shout at each other. I didn't really like the old format either, where one guy shouted and one guy tried to stay calm. Maybe we can try one where they both stay calm next time.

Maybe I just don't like debates.
posted by Ad hominem at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I bet when this is over, Ryan is going to lock himself in the bathroom and have a little cry.

And an epic pee.
posted by essexjan at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

Ryan doesn't have a very good opinion of the US if he thinks the instant we pull out of a hugely unpopular military adventure then we'll be Suddently surrounded by Weeping Angels or something
posted by The Whelk at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Unraveling, has anyone counted, how many times has he used that word? what's unraveling is the white male privilege he has always believed is his!
posted by mareli at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

vrakatar: "Great now I am all into this and missing the Yankees on the radio, you fucks."

I haven't even checked the score of the Steelers game. Damn.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I wonder if Ryan seriously thinks that it matters whether or not we give a date? Does he think they just won't notice when we leave?
posted by wierdo at 7:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm actually really interested in learning more about different reactions to the debate, and would love to see some links to these discussions!
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:03 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden: We are absolutely leaving by 2014.

Horay!
posted by humanfont at 7:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Classic Scranton power move.

IN this analogy, Ryan makes an excellent Dwight, complete with survival kit.
posted by Miko at 7:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I bet when this is over, Ryan is going to lock himself in the bathroom and have a little cry.

And, quite the MIGHTY PISS!
posted by ericb at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I love that Raddatz is calling him Congressman Ryan.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

What essexjan just said.
posted by ericb at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2012

So Joe and Martha are having thier own little adult conversation while Frankenstein Jr. There is at the kids table.
posted by The Whelk at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Yes, Ryan, they will never notice us leaving Afghanistan if we don't tell them the date ahead of time.

The same magic that gives a 5 trillion dollar tax cut without adding to the deficit.
posted by Skygazer at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2012

"Let me illustrate the issue here, because I think this may be a little confusing..."

You condescending prick.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Classic Scranton power move.

IN this analogy, Ryan makes an excellent Dwight, complete with survival kit.

Ryan actually reminds me in many ways of Michael Scott--arguably, even worse than Dwight. Dwight at least has the courage of his convictions, weird as they are; Ryan has Michael's need to ingratiate.

The "beefcake" photo shoot totally sealed the Michael Scott thing for me.
posted by Superplin at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Obama hates the performance aspect of these debates

Exactly, he is an amazing orator. But because of this, people expected him to be fiery in his rhetoric when it comes to things like this. Instead he remains calm, stands back, and tries to let the opponent hang themselves. They usually do with their own words, but the spin machine takes the straw and weaves it into gold and Americans are more then happy to swallow.

A perfect example I like to use is during the whole Rev. Wright fiasco, initially he refused to admonish the man because he "is like family to me" even if he did not agree with what he said. And then went on to say that focusing on unimportant things like this will result of nothing ever changing.

This was an amazing thing to say as an American presidential candidate.

Unfortunately the opposition spin machine turned their strawmen and weaved them into gold, and days later Obama was forced to admonish Rev. Wright like he refused to before out of respect. It was a major intellectual defeat for him, and I hated seeing it.

Not that anyone will read this comment in the impossibly fast moving thread, heh..
posted by mediocre at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [39 favorites]

"Let me try to illustrate this here. Because it can get a little confusing. Let me explain fighting seasons."

MANSPLAIN, DRINK.
posted by Phire at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

This is what debates should look like. I can't remember any other debate this awesome. Martha truly rocks!. Can we please get her to do all presidential and vp debates from here on out?
posted by marsha56 at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I had to switch from my TV to my computer, and then from my computer to my iPad, and each time I ended up about 10 - 20 seconds behind where I had been. Odd. I am writing to you from the past.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"That's what we call fighting seasons." -- Renowned Special Forces operator Paul Ryan
posted by wintermind at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

I'm guessing that Ryan didn't major in math.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012

Yeah there was nothing confusing about what Biden was saying
posted by Flashman at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012

WHAT THE HELL RYAN JUST LOST IT
posted by The Whelk at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Miko: "Classic Scranton power move.

IN this analogy, Ryan makes an excellent Dwight, complete with survival kit."

INCORRECT
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

vrakatar: "Great now I am all into this and missing the Yankees on the radio, you fucks."

I haven't even checked the score of the Steelers game. Damn.

13-10 Titans at the half.
posted by vrakatar at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012

Go Biden ... teach Ryan on the actual facts of troops in Afghanistan.
posted by ericb at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh crap. Ryan is this close to getting backhanded.
posted by Skygazer at 7:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Right Joe, because "trained Afghan troops" are just as good as good as US troops.
posted by Jahaza at 7:07 PM on October 11, 2012

The "independents" on my facebook feed have already started blaming Martha Raddatz for the way the debate is going. "The DNC must have hired her" and "This is by far the most disgraceful moderating I've ever witnessed both in allowing Biden's misbehavior & in participating in it herself."
posted by headnsouth at 7:07 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan did great on the four seasons. Next up is colors and days of the week.
posted by Miko at 7:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

Oh, Joe, it's mean to keep confusing Budget Wizard Ryan with arithmetic.
posted by wintermind at 7:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's kinda chilly in here. Afghan does the job.
posted by box at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Keep on mansplaining Ryan, that's really going to win over female voters.
posted by vuron at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

TO EVERYTHING BURN BURN BURN
THERE IS A SEASON BURN BURN BURN
A GAFFE FOR EVERY REPUBLICAN
posted by The Whelk at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Awww yisssss
posted by hellojed at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Syria vs. Libya now. I want Biden to explain all foreign affairs to me, forever.
posted by Phire at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2012

I haven't even checked the score of the Steelers game. Damn.

Maybe they're distracted by the snaps being laid down by Scranton's Finest?
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

That whole 'the calendar works the same every year' was exactly the crack a nasty little twerp WOULD make.

And I love how Biden pinned him on wanting to send Americans to the most dangerous region of Afghanistan.
posted by winna at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"The last thing American needs is to get into a ground war in the middle east."

IT'S ASIA, JOE. LANDWAR IN ASIA.
posted by Phire at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Biden seems to be channeling Al Pacino as Richard Roma
posted by Flashman at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

vrakatar: "vrakatar: "Great now I am all into this and missing the Yankees on the radio, you fucks."

I haven't even checked the score of the Steelers game. Damn.

13-10 Titans at the half."

Sonofabitch.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

THEY ARE THE FACTS!!!
posted by ericb at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Go Biden ... teach Ryan on the actual facts of troops in Afghanistan.

In what way is he actually doing that? Contradiction (with no addressing of Ryan's argument) is not some magical form of persuasion.
posted by Jahaza at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I think Joe needs to be nicer to Martha...
posted by Farce_First at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Right Joe, because "trained Afghan troops" are just as good as good as US troops.

Guess we should either stay there forever or magically teleport every troop out at once so they're not supplemented with Afghani forces in the transition, then.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Biden brought a gun to a knife fight. And I love him. I LOVE YOU JOE ZOMG
posted by angrycat at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Not that anyone will read this comment in the impossibly fast moving thread, heh..
posted by mediocre at 10:05 PM on October 11 [+] [!]

I'm reading every comment.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Biden: NEVER GET INVOLVED IN A LAND WAR IN ASIA
posted by Thistledown at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2012

I think Ryan's drinking every time Romney's name is mentioned.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

If only Ryan,s math was as tight as his smile
posted by rmless at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Biden seems genuinely angry, and justifiably so, I guess. I'm kind of thinking that could actually be a good thing, appealing as it might to Old Angry White Men (ie potential Republican voters).
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh Joe...I will vote for you for anything. I love you so much.
posted by dejah420 at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

You know, I agree that Vice President Biden is a little rude with the interruptions, but this is big-boy debate time, not JV forensics.
posted by wintermind at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Charles P. Pierce ‏@ESQPolitics:
Paul Ryan explains all the things he learned to pronounce 15 minutes before the debate. Also, he will explain winter to you. #VPdebate

LOLZ..
posted by Skygazer at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

I'm surprised he actually says "Russia" instead of "USSR," with all the weird Cold War throwback messaging the GOP has been doing these past few weeks.
posted by Superplin at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Here's my compliment for Ryan:

After this debate is over, can all the media commentators who claimed Sarah Palin did awesome four years ago explain to me what they think of Ryan's performance in comparison?
posted by palidor at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

LUNCHBOX! LUNCHBOX! LUNCHBOX!
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2012

I love that Raddatz is calling him Congressman Ryan.

She introduced him as Congressman. That shit went out the window before this started.
posted by wallabear at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2012

Farce_First : I think Joe needs to be nicer to Martha...

I think he has started to get tired and frustrated. He needs to hold on just a biiiiiit longer.
posted by pla at 7:12 PM on October 11, 2012

This is what debates should look like.

No. Respectfully, this is the fiery, UFC, Americanized version of political debate. It is ugly. It is exciting, but it is ugly. And it is unfortunate that we have come to the point where we expect and hope for ugly fighting like this. Obama may be boring, but he is rational and he is right. Unfortunately, loud and angry is too commonly mistaken for right.
posted by mediocre at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

So Ryan wanted to do the standard cold war CIA founded coup thing?
posted by The Whelk at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

And I love how Biden pinned him on wanting to send Americans to the most dangerous region of Afghanistan.

Except of course, that the Obama/Biden administration is sending those troops there now.
posted by Jahaza at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012

We didn't "give" Russia a veto at the UN. They're a permanent member of the Security Council. Does Paul Ryan not understand how the UN works?
posted by wintermind at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

Ryan still refuses to say what he would do differently going forward. Awesome.
posted by wierdo at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"You notice my friend never answers the question."

Yeah, Joe, we noticed. Thanks for putting his boots to the fire.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Miko: "Classic Scranton power move.

IN this analogy, Ryan makes an excellent Dwight, complete with survival kit."

INCORRECT
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane

Still incorrect. Ryan is Gabe.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

"We would not go through the UN." Yes, unilaterally violating another nation's sovereignty worked so well last time.
posted by Phire at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Good, Raddatz calling Ryan out on "national interest of American people" as the only grounds for interveniton, not humanitarian ones.
posted by Phire at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"Outsourcing our foreign policy to the UN" ?
posted by ceribus peribus at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

"Fuck a genocide until it's at our door."
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

To sum up:

Justin ‏@shitmydadsays

"Anyone who thinks they know what's best for 300 million people is a titanic asshole. So we're just voting for king of the assholes."
posted by Mojojojo at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

YES ABORTION YESSSSS
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Social issues! Fucking finally!
posted by Phire at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

So Ryan wanted to do the standard cold war CIA founded coup thing?

Oh god I was shrieking the same thing.

OH MARTHA ASKS ABOUT ABORTION
posted by winna at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Notice how every time the moderator asks, "Well, what would Romney/Ryan do?", Ryan's response is "Well I'll tell you what we WOULDN'T do!" ...ugh
posted by crackingdes at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

HERE COMES ABORTION
posted by gaspode at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

SOFTBALL TIME I OH DEAR GOD ARE WE REALLY TALKING ABOUT THIS
posted by The Whelk at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

What role religion plays on abortion! What a question!
posted by King Bee at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh that was sort of tasteless of me.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh, she saved the best for last!
posted by wintermind at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

ABORTION AND RELIGION

OH SNAP
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I think Joe needs to be nicer to Martha...

Just as Romney was nice to Jim Lehrer?
posted by ericb at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Abortion!
posted by box at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Reproductive rights!
posted by uncleozzy at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh man, headroll. Biden's all "thiiiiiis fuuuuuckin' kid."
posted by Maaik at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

DOMESTIC ISSUES IN THE HOUSE
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Last but not least, catholics on lady bits! I can't wait.
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Whoa.
posted by deanklear at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Abortion. Finally.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

hm. this is kind of bad way to bring up abortion. has biden been excommunicated?
posted by murfed13 at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I NEED WHISKY
posted by The Whelk at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Religion! Abortion!
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Catholic... Religion... Abortion...

Can I borrow another bottle of Vodka from someone? I don't have enough for this CCCOMBO!
posted by pla at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ryan's all "He ain't Catholic!"
posted by Miko at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

THANK YOU MARTHA FOR GOING THERE
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

All right. Lady-bits
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

FINALLY WE GET TO WOMEN'S CHOICE
posted by triggerfinger at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh screw it I am going to the liquor store.
posted by vrakatar at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"My faith informs me about how to take care of the vulnerable."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
hee
snort
oh god.
posted by kagredon at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

"Reason and science." LOLOLOLOL Ryan u troll.
posted by Phire at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Personally. PERSONALLY.
posted by asperity at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Reason and science!
posted by box at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan is pro-life because of reason and science?

DOES NOT COMPUTE.
posted by winna at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

yes, lady bits issues!
posted by mareli at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012

Cue another anecdote!
posted by hippybear at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012

YOU CHOSE TO KEEP THAT BEAN
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Reason and science makes you pro life??
posted by hollygoheavy at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012

MARTHA YOU ARE FUCKING AWESOME.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

REASON and SCIENCE!
posted by ericb at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012

"Bean."
posted by obvious at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

REASON AND SCIENCE

SMITE HIM
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:15 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Ryan believes life begins at conception. SORRY LADIES NO BIRTH CONTROL FOR U.
posted by winna at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh god, Ryan...not the bean story again...sheesh.
posted by dejah420 at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Wow.. just.. saying.. be personal, abortion. Be passionate, be honest, abortion. That is an amazing thing to say as moderator.
posted by mediocre at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"I respect people who don't agree with me on this. But you still have to do what I say."
posted by Phire at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

There it is: "bean baby" is the new "big bird"!
posted by mediated self at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012

Shut up everyone, Ryan's telling us about science! (watching raptly)
posted by JHarris at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

DID BIDEN JUST SNORT.
posted by The Whelk at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I poured a glass of wine. I do not think that will be sufficient.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I respect different views but we'll oppose abortion. I also respect the meaning of words.
posted by ersatz at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012

WAR ON RELIGION! OUR FIRST FREEDOM! GRAR!
posted by wintermind at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012

SCIENCE bless us all.
posted by fzx101 at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

But I don't want to give birth to a bean.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Ryan's abortion anecdote was clueless and insensitive.
posted by murfed13 at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

REASON AND SCIENCE AND MY DAUGHTER'S NICKNAME IS BEAN?????

Please, Jesus - just one round in an alley with this man. Just one. I'll buy you a beer aftah.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Poor kid.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm also so fucking sick of "covering contraception for all your employees" being trotted out as an infringement on religious freedom.
posted by Phire at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

I never use this formulation, but "Obamacare is destroying our freedom of religion" I can't even...
posted by Superplin at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I just had to pour a vodka and soda. Please destroy him Biden.
posted by King Bee at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Lutoslawski : MARTHA YOU ARE FUCKING AWESOME.

For those of us just listening... What did she do?
posted by pla at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

OH SHIT, SNORT!
posted by Theta States at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Hell, yeah.
posted by essexjan at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

OMG I ATE BEANS FOR DINNER !!!!!!!1!!!
posted by mudpuppie at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

RYAN SAYS OBAMA IS FOR FORCED ABORTIONS

THIS FROM THE GUY WHO WARNED US ABOUT SCARE MONGERING
posted by The Whelk at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Abortions R' Us. Funded by the government!
posted by ericb at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Did Ryan just say that Obama endorses the One-Child Policy of China?
posted by flippant at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Did Ryan seriously just compare pro-choice to eugenics in China? I'm insulted both as a pro-choicer and as a Chinese person. Wtf.
posted by Phire at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

Overthinking a womb of beans.
posted by elephantday at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

"We would not go through the UN." Yes, unilaterally violating another nation's sovereignty worked so well last time.

There are options between "unilateral" and "UN backed". (And if by "last time" you mean Iraq, it wasn't unilateral.
posted by Jahaza at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Did...did Ryan just say that the Democrats are going to force women to have abortions? I mean, maybe I heard that wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what he just said.
posted by wintermind at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Gravel = gravity.
posted by box at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Beans for Catholics but beans are optional for others

Yayyyyyy
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

"I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews. I refuse to impose it on others." Thank you, Joe.
posted by synecdoche at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [27 favorites]

Time for the Jesus-off. Best part after the "who grew up poorer"-off.
posted by lubujackson at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"I refuse to impose that on others." This x 1000000000.
posted by Phire at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

Holy snap he just twisted his freedom of religion argument back on him yessssss
posted by The Whelk at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

I refuse to impose that on others!
posted by mareli at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Joe, please ask Ryan why if he's so pro-life he fights every opportunity to support those lives he cares so much about after they're born.
posted by marsha56 at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

YES JOE. Separate the personal from the political.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Biden refuses to impose his religious beliefs on others. He thinks the decision is between a woman and her doctor.

Okay where is the end of the queue to adore Uncle Joe, for I must join.
posted by winna at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

REASON and SCIENCE?!
posted by homunculus at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012

THAT'S how to come back to that. Go Biden!
posted by JHarris at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"My friend here, the Congressman."

BOOM!
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

"I don't believe I have the right to tell women what to do with their body". Yes.
posted by ersatz at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Yes yes yes. I refuse to impose my personal religious beliefs on other people!

Joe Biden, I could KISS YOU ON THE CATHOLIC MOUTH WITH MY CATHOLIC MOUTH.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [24 favorites]

Oh Joe...such a good answer.
posted by dejah420 at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012

Yes: freedom of religion means you are free to practice your own beliefs, not that any religion is free to impose its own doctrines on those of other faiths (or no faith) through policy.

THAT'S WHAT SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEANS, Mr. Ryan.
posted by Superplin at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [23 favorites]

So science is a bean-baby as glimpsed by some laypeople in a 7-week ultrasound? And who gets an ultrasound at 7 weeks? That's some fancy insurance he must have.
posted by gladly at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

vrakatar: "vrakatar: "Great now I am all into this and missing the Yankees on the radio, you fucks."

I haven't even checked the score of the Steelers game. Damn.

13-10 Titans at the half."

Sonofabitch.

And Pouncey got injured.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden is outright lying about contraception.
posted by Jahaza at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012

Bring it on home Joe. We'll leave the light on for you.
posted by Skygazer at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I BELIEVE MORE SUPERSTITION THAN OGG!!! THE SKY MOTHER SPEAKS TO ME EVERY NIGHT!!! I RESPECT ALL SKY MOTHERS AND EVEN SKY FATHERS!!!

/vp debate 2012 BC
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

"Forcible rape" and the lack of exceptions for "rape and incest". GO JOE GO.
posted by Phire at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

My fetus was so cuuuute! We called it Bean
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

These people think they're entitled to fertilized eggs, beans, medicare vouchers, you name it.
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

Forcible rape!
posted by box at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

Catholic hospitals will indeed be required by law to pay for coverage of contraception.
posted by Jahaza at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

I had ultrasounds that early on. It's not unusual, at least not as far as my experience goes. And when it comes to pregnancy anecdote = fact!
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

No exceptions! Bring it Joe. Preach on, my new favorite American.
posted by dejah420 at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I refuse to impose that on others.

I jumped up and did a dance while going "WhoooooHoooooo!".

Debates are now officially my Superbowl.
posted by Vysharra at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden is outright lying about contraception.

How so?
posted by Skygazer at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Good question, Martha.
posted by Miko at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

My close relative went to that 7 week ultrasound and there were serious problems. She had to get an abortion, thank God she didn't have to have someone second guess her decision.
posted by humanfont at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [20 favorites]

DODGE
posted by pla at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

You can take your smarmy, smirking views off my personal choices, Ryan. Your policies can stay the hell out of my uterus.
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Unelected judges, DOWN THE BOTTLE,

also did Ryan just whimper?
posted by The Whelk at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Right pointing out the SCOTUS hangs in the balance. RIGHT ON.
posted by Miko at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

YES. SCOTUS finally get's mentioned...
posted by Skygazer at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012

My parents told me they nicknamed MY fetus Thor and for this I've always thanked them.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Supreme Court YES. Spell it out!
posted by ersatz at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012

Okay where is the end of the queue to adore Uncle Joe, for I must join.

About 900 comments up now.
posted by Garm at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012

oh man he's bringing in the SCOTUS math now

that is serious math
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Good job on Biden calling Ryan out on wanting to appoint SC justices that would overturn Roe v. Wade.
posted by Phire at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Planned Parenthood... excuse me.
posted by box at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2012

Legitimate Rape
posted by homunculus at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Bright line distinction on abortion. It's that simple, folks.
posted by Miko at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ooooooooooooooo Joe invokes the name of Scalia. Dun dun duuuuun
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Ryan actually slipped up by saying that it's still life even if it's rape or incest.
posted by winna at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

> My parents told me they nicknamed MY fetus Thor

Hey, that was my daughter-elect's nickname when she was just a bean. If she'd been a boy we would have named her Thornton.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

What are the odds of Ryan's children ever serving in the military?
posted by mediated self at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Full disclosure: Mrs. nushustu pointed out the Jim Halpert thing to me.
posted by nushustu at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Okay, softball and, time for flourishes and quips
posted by The Whelk at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012

"I want to go back to the abortion question here..."

FUCK YES
posted by Theta States at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden has brought the pain tonight. I doff my hat to grandpa Joe.
posted by RedShrek at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

The Whelk : also did Ryan just whimper?

You caught that? I wondered if I imagined it.

Holy crap.
posted by pla at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012

Double Whoa.
posted by deanklear at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012

Personal, religion-influenced views on abortion? As candidates for office, this question is worthless. A better question: what are your views on the relationship between religion & government?
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

So, did Romney drop that plank of the GOP platform about rape/incest?

Or did Ryan just say what sounds good?
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Lutoslawski : MARTHA YOU ARE FUCKING AWESOME.

For those of us just listening... What did she do?

At that moment, it was a reference to what I thought was a really elegant way to transitioning to a polarizing topic. A nice way to bring it around at the end. (but she's been fucking awesome throughout).
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012

I knew girls back in the sixties who died from illegal abortions. This is what Ryan/Romney will take us back to.
posted by mareli at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [36 favorites]

Oh shit yes 47%.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012

MATH

MATH

MATH!
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

oh come on, no LGBT questions???
posted by Theta States at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh no, I am all out of favorites!

TOO MANY FAVORITES!
posted by Vysharra at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

you guys I totally cried just now.
posted by changeling at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Martha to Ryan:"And perhaps someday your children will serve." Yeah, I seriously doubt that.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

47% 47 motherfu*kin' PERCENT BITCHES.
posted by Skygazer at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012

Hey girl, you might want to follow Paul Ryan Gosling on Twitter.

"That look I have while Biden talks is the same look I have when women claim they have "rights."
posted by Miko at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

What, I missed the whimper?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012

"That decorated soldier should not be thrown into the 47% who don't pay taxes while he's overseas, fighting."

OMG OMG OMG.
posted by Phire at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

47% again ... and tied to honoring our military! ZING.
posted by ericb at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I agree that it's weird to ask them about their religious stance on issues.

Ask them what their stance is on what they're gonna make all of us do or not do. My religious decisions are between me and my god or lack of a god.
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:23 PM on October 11, 2012

Dropping in a swipe at SuperPACs woohoo!
posted by Maaik at 7:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Even if Obama/Biden loses, Biden will have gone out swinging. I salute you, sir, and I salute your teeth, sir.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

Ryan is all tuckered out.


Joe's the man!
posted by WestChester22 at 7:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

47% again ... and tied to honoring our military! ZING.

I hate negative ads... let me find twelve different ways to attack.
posted by Jahaza at 7:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I am as pro-choice as they get, but I think both Biden and Ryan handled the abortion question well.
posted by insectosaurus at 7:23 PM on October 11, 2012

Ooh, Joe just walked back a "my friend" and changed to "Governor Romney".
posted by wintermind at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

> My religious decisions are between me and my god or lack of a god

That's great! Too bad Ryan and Romney don't think the same thing. See, for example, their position on abortion.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

When my kid was still a fetus we called him Herkimer, after an obscure SNL skit. Or "the Bump."
posted by emjaybee at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Diamond Joe: Took most of the debate, but check out what I just carved into the table with my jackknife http://ow.ly/i/112Sq
posted by triggerfinger at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

Personal, religion-influenced views on abortion? As candidates for office, this question is worthless. A better question: what are your views on the relationship between religion & government?

The answers actually answered that question. Since they're both Catholic, the distinction is super clear: Ryan believes that his personal religious beliefs should be enacted on the country as doctrine, whereas Biden believes that while his religion is important to him personally, he does not have the constitutional right to limit others' freedom of belief and practice.
posted by Superplin at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [46 favorites]

So Ryan would make his conversation with a returned serviceman about how he should vote Republican? Classy.
posted by kagredon at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Man he just thinks he said just the cleverest thing ever doesn't he?
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

attack blame & defame. he had to dig deep for that memorized phrase.
posted by murfed13 at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

to be fair, an hour and a half with joe biden would totally exhaust anyone.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ryan: Blah, blah, blah. Lie, lie, lie!
posted by ericb at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

> When my kid was still a fetus we called him Herkimer, after an obscure SNL skit

My first kid was the Parasite, after a Star Trek moment.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Is that "record to run on" thing his idea of a zinger?
posted by howfar at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

But Ryan, you and Romney are people who the 47% should run from...
posted by Skygazer at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

No, Ryan, you won't impose devastating cuts on the troops' safety, just their health and everything else after they get back!
posted by wierdo at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

Brandon Blatcher : What, I missed the whimper?!

Juuuust before the last new question... He put in this pathetic little attempt at a response that tapered off into an inarticulate sad noise.
posted by pla at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Um, my health insurance hasn't gone up by thousands of dollars a year. #anecdata
posted by wintermind at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Way to negative campaign as an answer to a question about disliking negative campaigns there, Ryan.
posted by troika at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

"Our straw veteran is upset about the negative tone in campaign ads. How would you respond?"

"First, by thanking him for his service. And then by going negative on the other candidate."
posted by synecdoche at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

No, using the vet thing as a springboard for the 'you have a president and here's a bunch of things I memorized that I didn't get in in the past hour' is not classy.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

attack blame & defame. he had to dig deep for that memorized phrase.

That was one of his prepared zingers!
posted by ericb at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012

really are you trying to complain about missing budget numbers? REALLY?
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I had this in a background window, and it sounded like Biden was getting roughed up - hesitant, unsure, pausing to say "uh" a lot, backtracking to re-enunciate. It was cringeworthy.

Then I brought the window forward. The jut of the jaw, the broad smile, the gleam in his eye - the man is so completely on tonight, it's unreal. Ryan looks like a news anchor who's reading talking points off a teleprompter.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

"President Obama has not put any ideas on the table to deal with the debt crisis. I have."

Oh right, like how your Republican cronies held the debt ceiling hostage in order to get your way at the risk of America defaulting on their debt for the first time ever? Right, that bipartisanship.
posted by Phire at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

Sweet Christ the tax cut/extra wars/who cares about AAA rating bloke is talking about the deficit. I fell off a truck yesterday!
posted by ersatz at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

A LIFETIME OF EXPERIENCE????? Dude, please!
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan is regurgitating instead of talking.
posted by deanklear at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Uniquely qualified!
posted by box at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan has totally forgotten that serviceman he's supposed to be talking to.
posted by limeonaire at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ryan finishes with a flourish.

No matter.

Malarkey!
posted by notyou at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012

simultaneously providing NO details of his budget, while trying to hit the president on details of the budget. UNREAL.
posted by cashman at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012

Uh oh, Ryan is duplicating his talking points from an hour ago. #choke
posted by Theta States at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden seems to have gone through three distinct phases: Entertained Incredulous Biden, Angry Biden, Tired Biden.
posted by Flunkie at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

And Kills Big Bird!
posted by HuronBob at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012

30 million who never had health care approve this message.
posted by vrakatar at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

http://gifmovie.tumblr.com/post/33398842832/paul-ryan-sees
posted by mysticreferee at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan, shut up.
posted by ericb at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

What is this weird job interview question about personal character?
posted by winna at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

This moderator is a total badass. Massive kudos.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Ryan: "Honesty."

LOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
posted by Phire at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

As a man.
posted by box at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Honesty lol
posted by bq at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012

"Honesty. Wait, what?"
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Can we just swap Biden and Obama for the next debate?

Or how about a tag team?
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I love Martha a little bit less than I love Biden, but only a little bit.
posted by Phire at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

That was, like, a job interview question.
posted by obvious at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan: I bring honesty.

Shit. I hope Biden pukes down Ryan's mouth at this point.
posted by Skygazer at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Honestly? Not me
posted by rmless at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012

I have a plan! A plan, I tell you, a plan!
posted by benito.strauss at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012

Let me sum this up. Ryan is a fucking, insincere, robotic, asshole.
posted by HuronBob at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Lyin' Ryan.
posted by mediated self at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012

Honest, guv'nor.
posted by ersatz at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012

Honesty ?!?!?!?!

Seriously ?!?!?!?

You lying @#$%@#$%@#$%@#$% !!!!!!!!
posted by marsha56 at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I have an even better, one point plan!

" fix everything!"

There, done.
posted by The Whelk at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

WHAT "proven pro-growth policies that we know work?" WHAT ONES? Because none of the ideas you and your party have put forward for the past couple of decades have accomplished that. They just haven't. Your ideas fail.
posted by Miko at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

What is this weird job interview question about personal character?

"Where do you plan to be in five years?"
posted by Superplin at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

My daughter just asked me "what about the lower class ... the poor people?"

She's 9 and she gets it.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [69 favorites]

Go Populist Joe!
posted by dejah420 at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"Grow this country from the middle out, not top down" = that's a keeper of a phrase. And right on.
posted by Miko at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

"You probably detected my, uh....frustration. About their attitude."

Oh Joe.
posted by Phire at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

JOEGULAR!
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

WE DIDNT USE THE P WORD IN AMERICA
posted by The Whelk at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012

HI, I'M PAUL RYAN AND I CAN LOVE A UTERUS OF BEANS.
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Um, my health insurance hasn't gone up by thousands of dollars a year. #anecdata

That's OK, Obama in the last debate said that I had gotten a rebate. But I haven't.
posted by Jahaza at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012

Frustration!
posted by box at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012

Martha for Presidential Debate moderator!
posted by figurant at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

i need a drink of water
posted by robbyrobs at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh, I'm so glad he's going back to the "takers are my mom & dad" point at the end here.
posted by asperity at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

YES! Pulled out both the "30%" AND the "47%" quotes.
posted by kagredon at 7:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

"Middle out, not top down."


Nice.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

It's gonna be okay.
posted by box at 7:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Diamond Joe: "Honey, it's gonna be OK."
posted by mediated self at 7:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Wow, he finally mentioned the president (not by name) in his closing. Weird tactic, but he CRUSHED the debate overall.
posted by pla at 7:30 PM on October 11, 2012

I got a rebate in the form of lower payroll taxes for most of this past year. Did you not?
posted by Miko at 7:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

My biggest flaws are that I am a perfectionist and I am just so damn good I make everyone else look bad.
posted by Ad hominem at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

PRedictiion for GOP talking points tomorrow " leveling the playing field is basically maoist redistribution of wealth!"
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Maybe instead of Mr. Ryan we should call him Mr. Sippy.
posted by robbyrobs at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm sorry, but when Ryan squared up to face the camera there, I just started laughing. It's so fake.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

Did Joe just burp?!?
posted by hellojed at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Paul Ryan would have won if they let him use his P90X recovery shake instead of tap water.
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

"We're offering real reform, real support for every American.....PSYCHE. Only if you make more than $1M."
posted by Phire at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Last time I saw a beating this bad it triggered riots in Los Angeles.
posted by azpenguin at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

EARN YOUR SUPPORT

god I feel like I'm being sold a used car.
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Man, I wouldn't buy a chair from this guy.
posted by ersatz at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Phew. What a relief. Joe rocked it.
posted by Babblesort at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

You could ski the moguls of Ryan's furrowed brow.
posted by Theta States at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

My daughter just asked me "what about the lower class ... the poor people?"

She's 9 and she gets it.

Your daughter for president in 2040!
posted by Superplin at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [20 favorites]

There's 'uniquely qualified' again.
posted by box at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012

Is it just my politics that makes me fine with Biden facing the camera and going all 3-D, but I giggle at Ryan when he does it?
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Ryan has that Dan Quayle "special something".
posted by lubujackson at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Guys guys I just got here late because my twitters said there was something going on in politics and it was like a wolf just ate a purse dog what happened?
posted by mhoye at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

"We want to earn your support." -- Yeah, about that, that's what you're supposed to be doing up there.
posted by wintermind at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Did Joe just burp?!?

Who's gonna begrudge him a pre-debate beer or two?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

The choice is Cingular.
posted by bq at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

How did I never notice Ryan's Eddie Munster hair before right this minute?
posted by dejah420 at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

If I never hear Mitt Romney referred to as a job "creator" ever again it would be too soon.
posted by Phire at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

BOOZE AND SPIN TIME!
posted by vrakatar at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012

She forgot to ask about their greatest fears!
posted by mediated self at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"15% of Americans are in poverty. And they're part of the 47% bloodsucking leeches that got American into this mess in the first place. " FTFY
posted by essexjan at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012

i just squealed with delight.
posted by murfed13 at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012

WELP WERE DONE HERE, TIME FOR THE SECOND DEBATE

WHICH I WILL BE AT ACTUALLY SO YAAAAY
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

I'm sorry, but when Ryan squared up to face the camera there, I just started laughing. It's so fake.


This is not relevant to the debate, but it feels like he is trying to tilt his head just right to activate the hypno-ray.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

There's a word missing from the entire political conversation in this election.

LIE.

Go there. Say it.
posted by flippant at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I wonder if they made that table format so Ryan couldn't bring a 'handkerchief' with him.
posted by winna at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I think Ryan is trying to sell me a car.
posted by fzx101 at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012

It's odd to me how both Romney and Ryan have taken the second closing statement in their debates, but have both sounded really canned, just no response at all to any of Biden/Obama's statements.
posted by kagredon at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I really wish we didn't have to do the stupid post-debate-on-screen-family-hug-shit every time.
posted by kiltedtaco at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012

What do you think that "uniquely qualified" means? Is there a code meaning in there? Or is just business-speak?
posted by Miko at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I got a rebate in the form of lower payroll taxes for most of this past year. Did you not?

a) Lower payroll taxes are not a rebate on medical insurance premiums. b) I also got a three year pay freeze that more than offsets the lower payroll taxes.
posted by Jahaza at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012

I follow both liberal and conservative people on Twitter, and the disconnect between them on this debate is complete and total. There is no common ground there, none. It's very disheartening, and it's also fascinating.
posted by gemmy at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Paul Ryan closing statement (and pretty much everything out of his mouth) (youtube)
posted by lampshade at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Welcome to the dustin of history, Ryan. Ask Sarah for a tour.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

God, it's like Ryan is channeling Nucky Thompson, but without the charm or Buscemi.
posted by mrzarquon at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Biden, you done good.
posted by Justinian at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Wow, my MetaFilter actually broke for about five minutes. Just watched RoboRyan's closer. OMG.
posted by wallabear at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm so disappointed Joe didn't take the opportunity to squeeze Paulie's bicep.
posted by jacy at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

So their entire message boils down to "Obama had his chance." Yeah, don't mention the Republicans that shit the bed and then got angry when he did not clean it up fast enough.

And what principals are you taking about Ryan? Because I still don't have a clear picture on what your principals are other than "elect Mitt."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Ryan: "You deserve better. We're for an extra pizza day in the cafeteria. We're for reinstating vending machines in the hallways. We need your vote!"
posted by ericb at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

Wolf Blitzer: Looks like pretty much a draw to me.

Stay classy, Wolf.
posted by Justinian at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

"what about the lower class ... the poor people?"

Let them eat beans.
posted by mediated self at 7:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

My daughter just asked me "what about the lower class ... the poor people?"

She's 9 and she gets it.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 9:28 PM on October 11 [17 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

LPC's daughter 2040. Let's make it happen!
posted by marsha56 at 7:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Biden alluded to Citizens United but not by name. It would have been nice to point out that most of that money is being spent by corporate interests supporting Romney.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:34 PM on October 11, 2012

Is it just my politics that makes me fine with Biden facing the camera and going all 3-D, but I giggle at Ryan when he does it?

Yup. 'salright, though. Human nature.
posted by Mooski at 7:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Looking at the graphs on 538, the Romney/Obama debate was an arterial puncture for Barack. He went from a slow, steady ascent to a rapid collapse of support in the polls. He's now back to where he was at the very lowest point during his campaign in early June.

This Biden/Ryan debate is about the only chance they've got at turning it around. I'm not even watching but I know there's no way Joe Boredom is out-glaming Senator Good Hair. Regardless of how many points you folks imagine Biden is scoring or how much you despise Ryan.

It's gonna be okay.

Keep telling yourself that.
posted by clarknova at 7:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

a) Lower payroll taxes are not a rebate on medical insurance premiums.

So you're enrolled with an insurance company which is actually using the money it receives from policy holders to pay for medical care. Good for you that you chose wisely and didn't enroll with one of those bilking theft machines which were suddenly forced to give money back that they weren't using as they should have been!
posted by hippybear at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

a) Lower payroll taxes are not a rebate on medical insurance premiums. b) I also got a three year pay freeze that more than offsets the lower payroll taxes.

I misunderstood what you were talking about. I did get the healthcare rebate, but I think the deal was that it's up to your employer whether to pass it on to you or not. And as to the pay freeze, I think that argument is also with your employer.
posted by Miko at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

It's odd to me how both Romney and Ryan have taken the second closing statement in their debates, but have both sounded really canned, just no response at all to any of Biden/Obama's statements.

Several of Ryan's statements were taken directly from previous statements he made. No wonder they sounded canned - they must have forced him to memorize them while he did Zumba.
posted by winna at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

This is Paul Ryan's clock.

This is what Vice President Biden cleaned tonight.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Joe brought up home, Democrats will be proud. Republicans will say Ryan didn't completely screw up and will get better in time and that he got a few zingers in against Joe the hack.

The debate wont' matter much to the general public. But I feel good!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012

Eloquent Biden Brings Entire Audience To Tears In Debate Stunner
posted by triggerfinger at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Ah, Americans. Your politics is so interesting what with your one party living in a different reality and the existential terror that comes with the consequences of the election, but I have barely 5 hours of sleep, so good night.
posted by ersatz at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

clarknova: "I'm not even watching"

Drawing conclusion without looking at the evidence? How very...Republican of you.
posted by Phire at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [39 favorites]

Debate ends. Biden roars off in his bitchin' Camaro, Ryan pulls on his running shoes and makes the 26.1 mile run back to his hotel in 2 hours flat.
posted by subbes at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

God, Ryan sounded like a used car salesman.
posted by obvious at 7:36 PM on October 11, 2012

Chris Matthews gave some battles to Ryan, but said Biden won the most points overall.
posted by murfed13 at 7:36 PM on October 11, 2012

That's OK, Obama in the last debate said that I had gotten a rebate. But I haven't.

I did! Affordable Care Act FTW!
posted by limeonaire at 7:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Last time I saw a beating this bad it triggered riots in Los Angeles

That really isn't funny.
posted by insectosaurus at 7:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]

Geez - my options in the UK for the post-debate analysis is CNN or Fox and CNN is saying that Ryan had a "mastery of detail and strategy" ahead of Biden. WTF? I daren't switch over to Fox.
posted by essexjan at 7:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

God, Ryan sounded like a used car salesman.

Problem is, those motherfuckers just keep selling cars.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

I'm not even watching ...

Well, thank you for your reasoned and informed comments and opinions.
posted by ericb at 7:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Somewhere, the ghost of Lloyd Bentsen is grinning.
posted by scody at 7:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Jeez, I keep forgetting how much I loathe David Brooks.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Here's the information about the health insurance rebates. You and I are both right on that one, hippybear.
posted by Miko at 7:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I love that "low information voter" is actually a term used on television.
posted by murfed13 at 7:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Eloquent Biden Brings Entire Audience To Tears In Debate Stunner

I know it's shallow and silly of me, but even if he'd done nothing else, I really think Biden's vice-presidency would be worth it based solely on what the Onion has done with it.
posted by kagredon at 7:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

God, Ryan sounded like a used car salesman.

Yeah, he really comes across like quite the condescending little prick, doesn't he?
posted by fuse theorem at 7:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Joe's demeanor is playing badly on CNN -- they are saying substance was a draw, style points went to Ryan.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 7:40 PM on October 11, 2012

Really, even MSNBC is reluctant to say it was an unequivocal Biden win. Except Rachel Maddow, who just called Ryan a clown. Thanks, Rachel.
posted by murfed13 at 7:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

CSPAN now taking phone calls from viewers about their impressions.

Oops, now they're in the "spin room" listening to what those who are parts of the machine will say to redefine what we just watched.

Seriously, I'm glad CSPAN exists. It's easily the least immediately offensive way to watch these things.
posted by hippybear at 7:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ok, I have to turn off the CNN feed; it's making me crazy. Are they always like that? Good lord.
posted by dejah420 at 7:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I love that "low information voter" is actually a term used on television.

"Total ignoramus" has a low Q rating.
posted by Miko at 7:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Okay, it's been decided. CLINTON/BIDEN 2016.
posted by Phire at 7:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

marsha56: "My daughter just asked me "what about the lower class ... the poor people?"

She's 9 and she gets it.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 9:28 PM on October 11 [17 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

LPC's daughter 2040. Let's make it happen!"

She'll only be 37. Let's go with 2052.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Yeah, weird, it's almost as if they had some kind of ulterior motive to spin this one as a draw
posted by crackingdes at 7:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I can't wait for the fact-checking tomorrow.
posted by Phire at 7:43 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden won, I don't care what anyone says. He won my heart
posted by hellojed at 7:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ugh, that CSPAN call in wasn't pretty. Guy posing as independent talking about how bad the liberal media is.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:43 PM on October 11, 2012

Oh man. Sharpton: "He isn't a liar yet, he is a fibber learning to be a liar".
posted by Ad hominem at 7:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Woooo free baseball in the Bronx!
posted by vrakatar at 7:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Caller on C-SPAN: Ryan needs to see a doctor..he drinks a lot of water!
posted by wierdo at 7:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I'm ready for the Biden bounce.
posted by humanfont at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012

Ha. C-SPAN caller says Ryan needs to go see a doctor because he sure drinks a lot of water.

What she doesn't know: Ryan was playing his own drinking game.
posted by shortfuse at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

MSNBC says Ryan was a disaster on Afghanistan and that he sounded like someone who learned the stuff for the test but who didn't REALLY get the issues.
posted by murfed13 at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I can't wait for the fact-checking tomorrow.

Why wait?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012

No, you see, independent can also mean "too conservative to fully relate to the mainstream GOP" in some circles.
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

From the #debates twittter feed: "Biden's lucky this debate was held in Kentucky. Most other places he'd face repercussions for spanking a kid like that."
posted by winna at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]

Here's a few other ones -

"Last time I saw a beating that bad, it was polybagged, and we wound up with four Supermen."

"Last time I saw a beating that bad, Cleveland was playing the home team."

"Last time I saw a beating that bad, someone entered a Yugo in the demolition derby."

"Ryan got done like the printer in Office Space"

"Ryan got done like a Cadbury egg at easter."

"Ryan got done like he was a prop on Mythbusters."
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I dunno gang, I said it upstream, I'll say it again; the numbers of the "undecided" didn't go for Biden. The spin on this debate is going to have Ryan as the winner, I can almost guarantee it. *We* think Biden rocked it, but that's not how the media is going to report it to the people who didn't see the debate.

Watching the spin now, it's astonishing how much of the narrative is being created by the talking heads.
posted by dejah420 at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I've just hit my favourite limit for the first time ever. IS THIS THE AMERICA WE WANT, BIDEN??
posted by Phire at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

I can't wait for the fact-checking tomorrow.

Biden says Ryan doesn't have specifics about how he's going to make up for the loss of revenue due to his proposed 20% tax cut. Ryan replies that he will make up for the loss of revenue due to his proposed 20% tax cut. Our verdict: PANTS ON FIRE, BIDEN
posted by Flunkie at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

dejah420, this election is about base turnout.
posted by Justinian at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I've started to wonder if there's something going on with CNN and Wolf Blitzer. And half the commercials I've been seeing there have been these energy companies spinning doozies: BP on how it's so great for the Gulf, "clean coal", natural gas fracking, etc. Makes me wonder!
posted by Schmucko at 7:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

In lieu of buying Biden I drink I just gave $11 to Obama/Biden.
posted by murfed13 at 7:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

I misunderstood what you were talking about. I did get the healthcare rebate, but I think the deal was that it's up to your employer whether to pass it on to you or not.

The problem is the the president stood there on the stage and said that I was getting a rebate, "So we're already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you're already getting a rebate." Except that I'm not.

I misunderstood what you were talking about. I did get the healthcare rebate, but I think the deal was that it's up to your employer whether to pass it on to you or not. And as to the pay freeze, I think that argument is also with your employer.

My employer happens to be run by President Obama, who has frozen our pay.
posted by Jahaza at 7:46 PM on October 11, 2012

I've just hit my favourite limit for the first time ever. IS THIS THE AMERICA WE WANT, BIDEN??

LIFT THE CAP, MATT!
posted by drezdn at 7:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Well, this is sort of tangential (Me—tangential? Inconceivable!), but I hate sports, hate bars, don't much care for crowds of people, and am almost pathologically bored by television "news," but watching the debate with metafilter humming away on my iPad may possibly have shown me what could be fun about watching a killer game at a sports bar with a whole bunch of people who were all in the same hopped-up sports fan headspace.

I feel like I needed a giant foam #1 finger for this thing.

Also, I desperately needed to use the little boys' room, but was so completely glued to the screen and iPad that I spent the last fifteen minutes clenched in agony and dancing Paul Ryan's little poly-sci Ritalin-deprived pee-pee dance. Fortunately, I did not soil myself.

It probably would have been worth it, though.
posted by sonascope at 7:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

Hmm, speaking as a progressive but poorly informed Canadian who was half-listened to an audiostream that intermittently cut out, I don't think it was quite the crushing victory for Biden that folks here think. Hopefully there's some sort of Nixon/Kennedy phenomenon at work there.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ha. C-SPAN caller says Ryan needs to go see a doctor because he sure drinks a lot of water.


She said he might have a little "sugar" (diabetes.)
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Jahaza: " My employer happens to be run by President Obama, who has frozen our pay."

President Obama happens to not be part of the party that wanted to slash and burn public sector jobs and salaries.
posted by Phire at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

I don't think MSNBC is being equivocal about calling it for Biden; they're pretty clearly in that camp. Matthews was scoring it like a boxing match which was a little confusing. But they're all clearly on board the Biden express.
posted by Justinian at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2012

Yeah, this one was to shore up the base and stop the bleeding. Next one, the President had better come correct.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2012

playing badly on CNN

CNN is concern-trolling about Biden's TONE? WTF, let's talk about the facts.
posted by Theta States at 7:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Debates are won and lost on style, not substance. Biden was strong, but he never had Ryan on the ropes, and he laughs and interruptions will cost him for those who found it rude. I'd still give it to Biden, but its not a slam dunk.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

From the live blog over at Gawker during the car crash section of the debate: There's you're reduction of everything into one easy story. Biden: "Oh, you know paralyzed people? My old lady died, fucker."
posted by humanfont at 7:48 PM on October 11, 2012

CBS seems to be coming down pretty solidly on the side of a Biden debate victory.

Sometimes, I'm glad to not have cable.
posted by Superplin at 7:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Biden beat Ryan so clearly it's not even funny, and nobody can say otherwise unless they're willing to overlook lie after lie after lie from Ryan and the Romney camp. I work in local, small market, underfunded and understaffed tv news, where a sponsor or key political figure getting pissed at what we say could seriously hobble us (shit, a single newsroom employee getting sick for a day can seriously hobble us), and we can still call a lie a lie, and it makes me sick that the big cable networks with all the money, prestige and access in the world can't call a pack of lies what it is and continue to give Romney and Ryan a free ride.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

Huh, PBS is openly acknowledging the roles that media talking heads play in shaping post-debate narratives. Colour me impressed.

(But hey, they're just socialist propaganda that drain our budget, right?)
posted by Phire at 7:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

I don't think MSNBC is being equivocal about calling it for Biden; they're pretty clearly in that camp. Matthews was scoring it like a boxing match which was a little confusing. But they're all clearly on board the Biden express.

Yea, you're right. Lawrence what's his name was being a little tepid in the beginning and it threw me off.
posted by murfed13 at 7:49 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan had the vibe Like he was trying to sell the audience a used refrigerator.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:49 PM on October 11, 2012

I missed the first half of this - does anyone know where I can rewatch it?
posted by rebent at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm convinced that people really do watch different things. On Facebook, a Republican just popped in to complain that Joe was begging for another chance while Ryan was giving him the hard stats. That's totally not the debate I watched.
posted by synecdoche at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Watching the spin now, it's astonishing how much of the narrative is being created by the talking heads

Yeah, I just ranted on Facebook about the headlines on major news websites right now. All neutral: variations on "Biden, Ryan Clash in Debate;" "Sharp Contrast as Biden, Ryan Face Off." They're too wussy (or bought) to call this debate without letting the pundits have their spin.
posted by Miko at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012

I know who I'd rather go with on a long camping trip.
posted by rmmcclay at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I dunno gang, I said it upstream, I'll say it again; the numbers of the "undecided" didn't go for Biden. The spin on this debate is going to have Ryan as the winner, I can almost guarantee it. *We* think Biden rocked it, but that's not how the media is going to report it to the people who didn't see the debate.

So aggressive, domineering Romney...good. Aggressive Biden....bad.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

President Obama happens to not be part of the party that wanted to slash and burn public sector jobs and salaries.

Feel free to read the linked article I provided. The "party that wanted to slash and burn public sector jobs and salaries" talking point is largely related to state and local employees anyways, who have a very different situation than federal employees.
posted by Jahaza at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012

Best tweet of the night: @billmaher: hi 9 1 1? There's an old man beating a child on my tv.
posted by zarq at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [27 favorites]

Lawrence O'Donnell was unhappy because he did not at all like the religion question. He probably was having flashbacks to the "Will you take your orders from the Whore of Rome?" days.
posted by Justinian at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012

but he never had Ryan on the ropes

Did you miss the discussion of tax policy? The moderator had Ryan on the ropes. Because their tax plan is indefensible, and sure enough, he failed to defend it. He couldn't offer specifics, after being asked repeatedly.
posted by mek at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

Jahaza: President Obama told congressional leaders Tuesday that he is extending a two-year pay freeze for federal employees until at least next spring because Congress has not agreed on a budget for the next fiscal year.

I don't read that as "President Obama freezing your pay." I think you have to be kind of in reality denial to believe that's an accurate description.
posted by Miko at 7:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

ARGH NBC PUNDIT GUY SAYS DEBATE IS "BASICALLY A TIE?!" RARRGH! FRAUGH!! ERRUGAH!!!
posted by JHarris at 7:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

God, only nuts call into the post-debate discussion, huh?
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I watched the debate on silent at a Thai restaurant. All I got is that Biden looked confident, and Ryan looked afraid.
posted by cmoj at 7:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Eloquent Biden Brings Entire Audience To Tears In Debate Stunner

I like how I knew that was an Onion link before I clicked it.
posted by clarknova at 7:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

From TPM: "There’s a limit on how much sense you can make when you’re just regurgitating stuff from your briefing books that you don’t know much about."
posted by benito.strauss at 7:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I know who I'd rather go with on a long camping trip.

Joe and I would climb through the clear mountain air and sit under the stars with some cold ones and hot dogs roasted over a fire. Then for my entertainment he would wrestle a bear while we played Scorpions Greatest Hits on an eight-track.

/me sighs dreamily.
posted by winna at 7:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [20 favorites]

Prince Reibus (or whatever the fuck his name is) is gloating all over CNN, saying his guy won (of course).
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 7:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I don't read that as "President Obama freezing your pay." I think you have to be kind of in reality denial to believe that's an accurate description.

It's literally executive action. Obama signs the order himself. Congress can't make him do it.
posted by Jahaza at 7:53 PM on October 11, 2012

You know how you can tell who wins a debate? It's whoever complains about the ref the most. Last week it was Dems complaining about Romney steamrolling Lehrer. Tonight it's the GOP (specifically Fox News) claiming that Raddatz was too mean to Ryan. Don't know how it's going to play out tomorrow morning, but considering all Biden really had to do was stop the bleeding, then mission fucking accomplished.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

LIFT THE CAP, MATT!

I'm of the party of "The favorites limit is to damn low!"
posted by JHarris at 7:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Full transcript of the debate.
posted by Phire at 7:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Prince Reibus (or whatever the fuck his name is) is gloating all over CNN, saying his guy won

heh...Priebus scripted that interview about 3 weeks ago.
posted by lampshade at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I think Josh Marshall said it well; Democrats are calling this a strong win for Biden, Republicans are calling it a draw. That's all you need to know about where the truth lies.
posted by Justinian at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

God, only nuts call into the post-debate discussion, huh?

And "independents" who really, really don't like Biden or Ryan.
posted by shortfuse at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012

Romney was all over the moderator last week, interrupting him left & right. No one said anything about that last week. Talking heads are already accusing Biden of bad debate behavior.
posted by murfed13 at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Well, this thread was amusing, but it's obviously time for me to bow out. Thanks, MeFites.
posted by hippybear at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012

I don't know what debate people were watching if they don't think Biden knocked it out of the park. That was a bloodbath.
posted by sonmi at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I have some very conservative friends on a certain blue and white social media thing, and they are saying things such as "does anyone else think this moderator is a moron" and "she is a she-demon."

I...I...

The weltzschmerz, it overwhelms.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

It was a little bit like the Santos/Vinick debate if you replaced Alan Alda with Precious Roy.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Jahaza, Obama can't spend money that congress won't give him especially with sequestration looming on the horizon. Why give pay increases when every department could be faced with stiff across the board cuts.
posted by vuron at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Krauthammer: "If you read the transcript, the debate was even. If you heard it on radio, Biden won. If you watched it on TV, then Ryan won."

Whatevs, man. I watched it on TV, and Biden kicked ass.
posted by King Bee at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

I'm digging that the BBC, CBC and Al Jazeera are all talking about actual public policy, while American news outlets seem to be talking about who was more or less aggressive or "looked more presidential".

I mean, shit, America, get it together.
posted by mhoye at 7:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [58 favorites]

From Twitter: @CBSNews INSTANT POLL of Undecided Voters: Who won #VPdebate? BIDEN: 50% RYAN: 31% TIE: 19%
posted by girlmightlive at 7:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

The right-wing spin machine has rapidly spun up: Raddatz was uber-partisan. Biden was rude.

Personally, I thought watching Biden v. Ryan was like watching an adult and a 10-year-old. I'm probably wrong, though.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Gotta love Mitch McConnell, complaining that Biden was disrespectful to Ryan. You know what's really disrespectful, Mitch? The way your candidates have blatantly lied their asses off to the American people.
posted by zarq at 7:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Ah, Jahaza. It's a lot more complicated than that. I'm sorry you're not seeing your payday yet, but at the same time, you're employed, you're insured, and I think in a spirit of patriotism you can probably trade a raise or a rebate for all the people that got included in healthcare coverage this past year and will be receiving it soon, and can recognize that this is an outcome of obstructionism in Congress. At least, many of the rest of us can.
posted by Miko at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

Huh, PBS is openly acknowledging the roles that media talking heads play in shaping post-debate narratives. Colour me impressed.

Yeah, research has shown that the two main factors that influence impressions of political debates are 1) candidates' demeanor (the main reason why there are such huge differences depending on the type of media used to learn about the debate, whether video, audio, or print/online text), and 2) mass media coverage of the debate after the fact. Even people who come away from viewing/listening to the debate with one impression are often swayed by post-hoc media narratives.
posted by Superplin at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Prince Reibus (or whatever the fuck his name is) is gloating all over CNN, saying his guy won

You mean Subeirp Ecnier?
posted by Numenius at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Krauthammer is by no means a neutral party King Bee. If he says it's even then you know damn well it's a Biden victory.
posted by vuron at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

So aggressive, domineering Romney...good. Aggressive Biden....bad.

But Romney didn't come off like an attack dog. You have to admit, Romney's had a brilliant strategy (in the sense that it worked). It was to cheat by stealing the clock and make a lot of pleasant sounding lies.

Biden was willing to fight for the clock and aggressively go after Ryan's lies, but in so doing he runs the risk of looking over-aggressive and out of control. I don't think he crossed that line, but that is, I think where the Ryan team wanted to push him.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:59 PM on October 11, 2012

@CBSNews INSTANT POLL of Undecided Voters: Who won #VPdebate? BIDEN: 50% RYAN: 31% TIE: 19%

I'm not usually aroused by a spanking. But in this case....
posted by howfar at 7:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

CNN has a "who won" poll on their front page (scroll down a little)
posted by raztaj at 7:59 PM on October 11, 2012

The C-SPAN callers are surprisingly interesting tonight, perhaps because it's the VP debate..
posted by wierdo at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012

The spin on this debate is going to have Ryan as the winner, I can almost guarantee it. *We* think Biden rocked it, but that's not how the media is going to report it to the people who didn't see the debate.

The people on the internet create the buzz. Ryan came off as a terrible liar to everyone who has paid attention to American politics for any of the last, let's say, 12 years.
posted by ersatz at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Biden 50%, Ryan 31%, Tie 19% Is about what I expected. You might say it should be a much more clear victory than that, but honestly the only time the results would be more lopsided are when one side doesn't bother to show up (like last week). Ryan was there and didn't murder a kitten on camera so he got 1/3 of the undecideds. Obama didn't bother to appear and managed 22%.
posted by Justinian at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012

Lutoslawski, yeah but they sure sung her praises when she raked the President over the coals in an interview about Libya. Hypocrites.
posted by zarq at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Boston Globe: Fact checks and analysis on the debate.
posted by ericb at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

If you watched it on the internet, you come to detest the people in the tweets sidebar.
posted by mccarty.tim at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

No doubt, vuron, no doubt. As I've been getting back into politics, I've been watching a lot of him, and seeing how ridiculous he can be.
posted by King Bee at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012

It's literally executive action. Obama signs the order himself. Congress can't make him do it.

Yeah, yeah. We get it. You hate Obama because he didn't increase your salary with the non-existent money congress refused to give him.
posted by smithsmith at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [29 favorites]

If Krauthammer calls it even, then Ryan got done like a six pack in a salt mine.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Miko: God, only nuts call into the post-debate discussion, huh?

No, pretty much every C-SPAN call in show is like that. Washington Journal is especially amusing.

As far as the reaction, as expected it's straight down party lines.

On style, Paul Ryan wins. Biden looked unhinged. On substance, however, it was a draw. Both said what they needed to their base.— S.E. Cupp (@secupp) October 12, 2012

Slightly different tone from the MSNBC crew tonight. :) #VPDebate— Krystal Ball (@KrystalBall1) October 12, 2012

So this was a solid win for Biden, I'd say; as well as a competent performance by Ryan. The star? Raddatz. thebea.st/VWXJFt— Andrew Sullivan (@sullydish) October 12, 2012

posted by ob1quixote at 8:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Drawing conclusion without looking at the evidence? How very...Republican of you.

Assuming I'm in line with Biden's opposition because I'm not waving Democratic pom poms is very... fucking stupid.
posted by clarknova at 8:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

@CNN says among undecideds, it's a dead heat. 1/3 say Biden won, 1/3 say Ryan, 1/3 neither/both.

Cnbc poll Who do you think won the VP Debate? Paul Ryan: 56%, Joe Biden: 36%, Neither: 8%
posted by girlmightlive at 8:02 PM on October 11, 2012

I thought Biden won but these "debates" make me sad. They are everything we say is wrong with 24/7 news. Whoever shouts more wins. These a pointless until we get legit fact checking and the moderator, or some independent panel, call people out for lying with impunity.

Of course I thought Ronmey was a disgrace last time and seeing Americans embrace his limitless bulshit is the first time I've really questioned the intelligence of the American people. I guess that was my mistake.
posted by Ad hominem at 8:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Hahaha CNBC poll. No way that could be a biased sample.
posted by vuron at 8:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

The networks are falling over themselves just like on the night before Ryan was announced as VP. I think, given the small amount of time left before election day, all this parsing of voter thoughts is basically worthless. When you factor in the desire of the new networks to sell ad space combined with the smallish differences in numbers, any bias in the reporting, fact checking or anything else, it throws off the numbers to enough of a degree that anything reported is basically worthless.

Best anyone can hope at this point is that, barring some huge gaffe before election day, we really won't know for sure what is going on until the votes are tallied. The best the candidates can do is continue to battle it out as if their lives depended on every speech.

Great theatre, but trying to suss out a logical answer of who is on top at this point is *almost* futile.
posted by lampshade at 8:03 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden had every right to come out swinging, to come out passionate and to come out over-the-top. Mitt Romney got on stage and announced he liked Big Bird, federal regulation of business and poor people. WTF are you suppose to say in the face of such blatant BS? Tonight, let the fact checking begin, but Paul Ryan came off as the whiny, almost-but-not-smartest kid in the class that nobody likes. Biden came off looking like a guy who could probably not only still score a decent blow job, but also get things right a higher percentage of the time than Paul Ryan. And yes I've a glass of wine this evening and a couple of trips to the dug-out, but that debate was FUN.
posted by PuppyCat at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

the first time I've really questioned the intelligence of the American people. I guess that was my mistake.

Yeah, I wish I had a better opinion of my countrymates, but it's been a lot of years since I credited the American public with the power of high-level, critical thought. That's not where we are, sadly.
posted by Miko at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Cnbc poll Who do you think won the VP Debate? Paul Ryan: 56%, Joe Biden: 36%, Neither: 8%

Keep in mind that CNBC is where the Tea Party informally started.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

"Drawing conclusion without looking at the evidence? How very...Republican of you."

"Assuming I'm in line with Biden's opposition because I'm not waving Democratic pom poms is very... fucking stupid."
posted by clarknova"

Commenting on a debate that you're not even watching is...oh, never mind.
posted by HopperFan at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

This gif will make me giggle for days.
posted by winna at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Hmm, speaking as a progressive but poorly informed Canadian who was half-listened to an audiostream that intermittently cut out, I don't think it was quite the crushing victory for Biden that folks here think. Hopefully there's some sort of Nixon/Kennedy phenomenon at work there.

If they want to win more independents, the Obama team is going to have to reshape their argument: Romney and Ryan are perfectly nice people, and they have really good intentions, but they can't offer specifics, their math does not add up, and they simply don't understand what struggling in the middle class is like. They need to treat their opponent's positions with seriousness, and then deconstruct them calmly and simply without overstepping into ridicule.

They should also point to parallels in the proposals by the Romney campaign and the Bush Administration. I would hammer the point home, over and over again: you can't cut taxes and fight wars and reduce the deficit. The conservative position is in fact letting the failed Bush policies expire, not reinvesting in the bad ideas that lead to the financial crisis in the first place.
posted by deanklear at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Of course I thought Ronmey was a disgrace last time and seeing Americans embrace his limitless bulshit is the first time I've really questioned the intelligence of the American people. I guess that was my mistake.

Yup. The worst is when people I respect on that white and blue social media thing say things like "Biden couldn't find Libya on a map." Err... what?? I think I am generally an extremely open minded person but I canNOT understand non-social conservative/non-millionaire Repubs. I'm working on it.
posted by murfed13 at 8:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Very Quick Thoughts, Josh Marshall, Talking Points Memo, 11 October, 2012
posted by ob1quixote at 8:05 PM on October 11, 2012

Communist!
posted by homunculus at 8:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

CNN has a "who won" poll on their front page (scroll down a little)

CTRL+F and "quick vote" to find it.
posted by Theta States at 8:05 PM on October 11, 2012

It looked like a bean!
posted by Miko at 8:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Hannity: "Biden was laughing seemingly uncontrollably at times. Biden was rude and condescending."

"Condescending" is a word that gets bandied around a lot, and for the record, you are not being condescending when you have facts to prove that what your opponent is saying is garbage, and so you decide to say those things out loud.
posted by King Bee at 8:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [27 favorites]

deanklear: "If they want to win more independents, the Obama team is going to have to reshape their argument: Romney and Ryan are perfectly nice people, and they have really good intentions, but they can't offer specifics, their math does not add up, and they simply don't understand what struggling in the middle class is like."

That's what I heard Biden saying all night?
posted by wierdo at 8:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I can't believe I sat through that completely sober.
posted by goHermGO at 8:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Isn't that bean story stolen from Kurt Cobain?
posted by howfar at 8:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

The people on the CNN line are ignorant "independents" (read Republican voters who don't like the label). They aren't the people needed to win.

SERIOUSLY. I could count on one hand all of the left-leaning people I know who spout that "Oh, I consider myself an independent..." stuff, it's Republicans all the way down.

...

The "independents" on my facebook feed have already started blaming Martha Raddatz for the way the debate is going. "The DNC must have hired her" and "This is by far the most disgraceful moderating I've ever witnessed both in allowing Biden's misbehavior & in participating in it herself."

...

Ugh, that CSPAN call in wasn't pretty. Guy posing as independent talking about how bad the liberal media is.

...

No, you see, independent can also mean "too conservative to fully relate to the mainstream GOP" in some circles.

...

God, only nuts call into the post-debate discussion, huh?

And "independents" who really, really don't like Biden or Ryan.

OK, it sounds like there are a number of people calling in to various shows tonight claiming to be independents who really should be calling themselves something else. But hi—left-leaning, lowercase-i independent, right here. Those aren't my people—I think the vice president kicked ass tonight. Can we quit with the blanket statements about independents?
posted by limeonaire at 8:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Romney/Ryan positions takeaway:

1. Foreign Policy: We just need to BARK at the rest of the world, and they will come to our way of thinking.

2. Taxes: Everyone needs a cut, but the rich HAVE WORKED SO MUCH HARDER for theirs.

3. Budget: There's only enough money to do what WE want to do.

4. Women's issues: Huh?
posted by Benny Andajetz at 8:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

I could have done with a little less of laughing Joe. If he had just said the same things, but with a quiet air and serious demeanor, I think it might have gone a little further.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

To be honest with you, Romney may have won some undecided moderate voters in the last debate, but I feel a lot of his moderate positions would have alienated a lot of his right-wing lunatic fringe. Who do you think will be more enthusiastic to haul their asses to the polls come November?
posted by smithsmith at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed that CBS is right, but if not, then maybe it will be a draw with the undecideds.

But Biden definitely scored a huge win at getting a frequently apathetic base totally fired up.
posted by marsha56 at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

OK, it sounds like there are a number of people calling in to various shows tonight claiming to be independents who really should be calling themselves something else.

"Hired shills"?
posted by mhoye at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Vote in the cnbc poll
posted by Theta States at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I listen to most of it in the car and was cheering and pumping my fist whenever Biden was talking. I got home to watch the end and am now watching clips on MSNBC and Biden looks fired up and confident and Ryan looks nervous and evasive.
posted by octothorpe at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I can't believe I sat through that completely sober.

Let me assure you, those of us who made the extremely poor decision to make "my friend", "bipartisan", and "when Ryan takes a drink of water" drinking moments are not in any better shape.
posted by corb at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]

Yes, the Republican talking point is that Joe was too mean to Paul Ryan. So, they're copping that the GOP picked another weak and stupid partisan hack who can't cut it on the national stage for the Veep slot. Shades of Palin...
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Romney and Ryan are perfectly nice people

I really don't think they're nice people. Nice people don't try to tell me whether or not I can have babies.

Can we quit with the blanket statements about independents?

I think it's fair; you're really an exception to the rule.
posted by Miko at 8:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

Communist!
posted by homunculus at 10:05 PM ]

heh....i know several people exactly like that. they blurt out words like "communist", then retreat with the "look it up" when asked (just as Matthews did) what it means to them.

The brainwash is astounding. And sad. And scary.
posted by lampshade at 8:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

The problem is the the president stood there on the stage and said that I was getting a rebate, "So we're already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you're already getting a rebate."

I think he meant (and clarified later) "And it also says that you're going to have to get rebates if insurance companies are spending more on administrative costs and profits than they are on actual care." Which is how I got my rebate, and how some of my friends did not (they don't have a terrible insurer).
posted by Garm at 8:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

the Republican talking point is that Joe was too mean to Paul Ryan

So, until tonight, Ryan was the lean and mean GOP wonk machine with all the sharp young policy ideas and the fast-moving hand jive, but after tonight, he was just a well-meaning green young kid who got roughed up by the alpha dog?

Sure, OK.
posted by Miko at 8:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [25 favorites]

Let me assure you, those of us who made the extremely poor decision to make "my friend", "bipartisan", and "when Ryan takes a drink of water" drinking moments are not in any better shape.


Oh hell I thought it was "drink everything if Ryan is smarmy."
posted by vrakatar at 8:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

homunculus: Communist!

I saw this today. I hoped somebody would find a linkable video because that was the moment I knew despair.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Mod note: Seriously, I don't know if folks have been drinking or what, but we don't do the "Republicans are stupid" thing here, maybe you want to be on another website?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Boston Globe: Fact checks and analysis on the debate.

That picture is the debate in a nutshell.
posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012

I found Biden to be exactly what everyone who has paid any attention expected: an elder statesman who said exactly what he thought, niceties be damned, who is passionate about what he does and what he wants to do. He took Paul Ryan to the woodshed, which is exactly what needed to happen, and is exactly his job. If Paul Ryan can't stand up to Joe Biden, how the hell could anyone expect him to stand up to any other leader on the planet? and I hope with all of my being that President Obama does that to Romney next week.

(This was my response to someone on FB who thought Biden was rude, and didn't I feel the same way?)
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [26 favorites]

Fox News drone haz a sad that their snap poll showed a Biden win.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012

Mansplaing Ryan
posted by The Whelk at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Never forget that 1/2 the electorate is below average intelligence.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

The debate drinking rules are as follows:

1. Take a drink.
2. Check to see if you have any booze left - if you do, take a drink.
posted by PuppyCat at 8:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Oh hell I thought it was "drink everything if Ryan is smarmy."

We initially tried "drink when Biden laughs" and "drink when Ryan makes a going-to-the-bathroom face", but that was heading way south way too fast.
posted by corb at 8:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Keep in mind that CNBC is where the Tea Party informally started.

Keep in mind that CNBC was telling their viewers to buy stocks a day before the market crashed. If they know as much about the election as they knew about the market, then please, tell me more!
posted by octobersurprise at 8:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Romney and Ryan are perfectly nice people


Nice to the people they see in the bathroom mirror every morning. The rest of the world can get f__ked.
posted by lampshade at 8:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

"That's my secret, Cap...I'm always angry."
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

Seriously, I don't know if folks have been drinking or what

You weren't talking to me but I just wanted you to know that I have, in fact, been drinking.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

. If Paul Ryan can't stand up to Joe Biden, how the hell could anyone expect him to stand up to any other leader on the planet?

That is a question more people on the right should be asking themselves.
posted by Miko at 8:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

This is my favourite snapshot of the debate ever.
posted by Phire at 8:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

So, until tonight, Ryan was the lean and mean GOP wonk machine with all the sharp young policy ideas and the fast-moving hand jive, but after tonight, he was just a well-meaning green young kid who got roughed up by the alpha dog?

Sure, OK.

Almost every heated argument with this modern paper tiger Republican party ends this way.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ah, Jahaza. It's a lot more complicated than that. I'm sorry you're not seeing your payday yet,

That's not the problem, the problem is that Obama isn't honest about the rebate and the payroll tax relief you floated as a benefit is moot if it's offset (and more than offset over time) by pay freezes.

but at the same time, you're employed, you're insured, and I think in a spirit of patriotism you can probably trade a raise or a rebate for all the people that got included in healthcare coverage this past year

Except that the two things are in no way interdependent. It's not like Obama horse traded a payroll tax cut or a federal pay freeze for passing Obamacare.
posted by Jahaza at 8:15 PM on October 11, 2012

"Yes, I have been drinking."

*puts on sunglasses*

"Waaaaaater!"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ugh, enough about your paycheck. My heart bleeds for your good job and health benefits.
posted by Justinian at 8:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [23 favorites]

CNN/ORC post debate poll, Ryan 48%, Biden 44%.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 8:17 PM on October 11, 2012

the payroll tax relief you floated as a benefit is moot if it's offset (and more than offset over time) by pay freezes.

If you don't think you are making what you're worth, then market your skills to the private sector instead of taking our tax dollars like a school teacher.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Jahaza:

President Obama in February called for a 0.5 percent pay increase for federal employees to be effective in January 2013. Congress was expected to either approve or block the raise, which was included in the president's proposed budget for fiscal year 2013. But as of now, federal workers are still wondering whether the two-year pay freeze that began in January 2011 will be extended for another year.

What happened? Obama just before the Sept. 30 close of fiscal year 2012 signed a six-month continuing resolution that did not include the proposed across-the-board pay increase for General Schedule employees or preclude it from being implemented after the CR expires at the end of March. Obama in an Aug. 29 letter to congressional leaders said he still was calling for the 0.5 percent pay raise in calendar year 2013, but not for the period covered by the CR.

Before the CR expires, the president and Congress will need to determine whether or not to include the proposed pay raise in legislation needed to fund federal agencies for the rest of FY 2013. However, if they are unable to agree on such legislation, there is also the possibility of another CR, which would increase the chances of agencies being funded at levels that likely would preclude the pay raise.

There is also the question of whether any pay increase would be effective at the end of March or retroactive to the beginning of calendar year 2013. Federal employee unions are pushing for a retroactive pay increase, but regardless of the results of the national election Nov. 6, the appetite in Congress and the administration for such an increase likely will be lacking.

I'm sorry I can't feel a little sorrier for you. But can we talk about something else now?
posted by Miko at 8:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Paul Ryan's workout plan.
posted by Phire at 8:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

IT BEGINS
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Don't worry, Jahaza. When your buddy Romney gets in and slashes federal employees you'll have no income at all to complain about.
posted by smithsmith at 8:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [25 favorites]

CNN/ORC post debate poll, Ryan 48%, Biden 44%

Is this another internet poll? I think honestly those of us on both sides should calm down about those...they are strongly subject to manipulation by partisans. Someone posts it, everyone goes over, rinse and repeat.
posted by corb at 8:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

And this might be my favourite debate-gif.
posted by Phire at 8:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

I'm sorry I can't feel a little sorrier for you. But can we talk about something else now?

You're the one who tried to sell me on Obama by referring to how I was getting money back.

If you don't think you are making what you're worth, then market your skills to the private sector instead of taking our tax dollars like a school teacher.

So you missed the part where I said it wasn't about the money?
posted by Jahaza at 8:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"That's my secret, Cap...I'm always angry."

You know what scene I want to see with plastered on faces, go make it happen tumblr.

I believe in you.
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Hey, guys, not all of us feds feel the same way Jahaza does. I have a great job, for which I'm grateful, and I'm willing to take a hit for a while because we all need to do our part.
posted by wintermind at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

Listen Jahaza, I'm a state employee so I know how much it sucks when you get pay freezes for extended periods of time. Losing ground to inflation sucks. I've been there and done that.

The truth of the matter is that the Republican party in Congress is stacked to the brim with people that believe strongly in drowning government in the bathtub. As a result they are holding anything they possibly can as hostage in an attempt to force Obama's hand in terms of extending the Bush tax cuts.

In this political environment the resources necessary to raise pay in federal departments simple aren't there. In fact Obama is trying to avoid having those departments take big across the board cuts which would almost certainly result in job losses as programs get cancelled and workers get furloughed.

This are things that Ryan's party in the House have forced.
posted by vuron at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

I don't think the attempt at "Biden was condescending and mean" narrative is gonna play, though the right is going to push it hard. Biden is a statesman with decades of experience on Ryan. He has a rep of calling 'em like he sees 'em. Him calling people out is different than if someone else did it.

Plus... casting Ryan as a bullied kid does what for the GOP, exactly? Ryan's supposed to be the policy backbone of the ticket, and he blew it.
posted by sonmi at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Can you take Jahaza's individual problems to memail?
posted by benito.strauss at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

I endorse that, but I don't want any axegrindy MeMails, so I vote to drop it.
posted by Miko at 8:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Can you take Jahaza's individual problems to memail?

Seconded.
posted by dejah420 at 8:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Seriously, I don't know if folks have been drinking or what

That's my secret ...
posted by octobersurprise at 8:23 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Is the debate archived anywhere? I was unable to watch it live.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 8:24 PM on October 11, 2012

Republican Congresswoman on MSNBC regurgitates the "fixed numbers" line and in the same breath criticizes Obama for not living up to his promise of bringing the numbers down to 5.6%.

AS IF YOU WOULD BELIEVE THE NUMBERS ANYWAY!
posted by Room 641-A at 8:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Plus... casting Ryan as a bullied kid does what for the GOP, exactly? Ryan's supposed to be the policy backbone of the ticket, and he blew it.

It doesn't cast Ryan as a bullied kid, it casts Biden as an out-of-control drunk uncle at Thanksgiving. Ryan came off as more reasonable - even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.
posted by corb at 8:24 PM on October 11, 2012

In the hyper-accurate Fark pchop poll, which admittedly called it closer than it actually was last week, has come down decidedly in favor of Biden. Mostly Mortal Kombat references starting at around the 9:30 mark, and upvoted "Release... THE BIDEN!" pics posted at the beginning of the debate. Ryan looking like a goof while lifting weights is pretty much everywhere, usually while being tricked by Biden.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I hope you're not employed in one of the cabinet-level federal departments that Romney intends to eliminate completely.

You'd better hope you're not either, because he explicitly said he's not going to say which ones he's eliminating.
posted by Flunkie at 8:26 PM on October 11, 2012

It's astonishing that one man would say, "I will not impose my religious views on others" and the other man does not say, "Me too."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [33 favorites]

Biden "disrespectful" is the party line; I'm hearing it over and over from the pro-Ryan callers on CSPAN. I'm interested in this obsession with "respect." I have to say that I don't expect the kind of deference they seem to characterize as "respect" to be coming from an opponent's side. To me, that is not what a debate is about. I think everybody's job in a debate is to state their case clearly and forcefully and to contradict erroneous characterization. Everyone should do that. It isn't "disrespectful" to speak strongly.

I wonder if it's one of those honor-society, don't-cross-my-privilege sorts of things that engenders this focus on "respect."
posted by Miko at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Retweets from Nate Silver

CBS News Knowledge Networks poll of undecided debate viewers found 50% thought Biden won, 31% Ryan won, and 19% tie— Mark Blumenthal (@MysteryPollster) October 12, 2012

CNN poll gives the debate to Paul Ryan: 48%-44%.— Andrew Kaczynski (@BuzzFeedAndrew) October 12, 2012

posted by ob1quixote at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Replay on C-SPAN will start in 3 minutes at 11:30pm EST. I think.
posted by shortfuse at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Well, Flunkie, I'm a scientist, so I'd be pretty well screwed if Romney wins.
posted by wintermind at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.

Disagree with Biden if you like, but I don't see how anyone can say he didn't take the debate seriously. The man showed some real passion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

wintermind: "Well, Flunkie, I'm a scientist, so I'd be pretty well screwed if Romney wins."

It is well known that science has a liberal bias.
posted by Phire at 8:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

thanks, Shortfuse
posted by rebent at 8:28 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan came off as more reasonable

No, he really came off as not ready for prime time. If this was Thanksgiving, Biden might have been the drunk uncle, but an uncle with the life experience to know what he's talking about, while Ryan was totally unready to sit at the grownup table.
posted by Miko at 8:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

The CBC audience gave the debate to Biden by something like 88% to 10%.

So that's Canadians for you.
posted by mazola at 8:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [73 favorites]

mazola: "The CBC audience gave the debate to Biden by something like 88% to 10%.

So that's Canadians for you."

I so wish I could favourite this. I'm giving it verbal props instead.
posted by Phire at 8:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

The CBC audience gave the debate to Biden by something like 88% to 10%.

So that's Canadians for you.

I knew I liked Canada. If only it had better weather...
posted by Superplin at 8:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Well, I'm a Canadian, and I had to hook the TeeVee back up to watch this, so I'm no expert. But I liked the part where that Republican guy never even once answered a direct question.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 8:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Ezra Klein's Wonkblog at the Washington Post posted a live "footnoting" of the debate that has a lot of great links to source and reference information on the issues discussed tonight.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I guess Obama, the president of the United States, is less deserving of respect than Ryan for some reason. Shout down and interrupt Obama all you want but disrespecting Ryan, the brains on the republican party, is beyond the pale!
posted by Ad hominem at 8:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [26 favorites]

It doesn't cast Ryan as a bullied kid, it casts Biden as an out-of-control drunk uncle at Thanksgiving. Ryan came off as more reasonable - even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.

This is the dumbest commentary I've seen on the debate so far. Biden was jumping in passionately because he didn't take the debate seriously. People don't even listen to what they say.

Paul Ryan is a liar. Lying in a debate is rude. Interrupting a lie to point out the facts is what a decent person does.
posted by spaltavian at 8:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [29 favorites]

I saw this today. I hoped somebody would find a linkable video because that was the moment I knew despair.

You know nothing yet. Go forth. Attend a Ryan rally. Then may you speak of your miseries.
posted by clarknova at 8:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Biden's job was stopping the bleeding, shoring up the base, and acting like an attack dog in calling out Republican lies.

He was strongly empathetic which will play well with middle class and working class voters in swing states, he shored up the base which will help in the "enthuisasm gap" and he framed Ryan and Romney as unrepentant liars and flip-floppers which should help take some of the wind out of their sails.

Biden's job isn't to win people over to Obama, it's about making sure that people get out and vote. Demographics simply favor the Democrats to such a huge degree in this election that as long as Obama brings in enough of his base from 2008 there simply isn't a way for Romney to win.

Biden's attack dog attitude is going to shore up Obama among single women and rustbelt voters and considering Ohio is pretty much a must win for Romney help Obama win the election.
posted by vuron at 8:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

there is a pre-defined media narrative of the "narrow horse race" which will, damn it, be followed no matter the facts

This is absolutely true, and the reason is simple: only a narrow race will keep people sweating, watching, clicking and sharing up to the day of the election. And those advertising dollars are precious ones that come only every four years - and a super big bonanza this year, thanks Citizens United! - make no mistake.
posted by Miko at 8:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

Also, from the activist group I'm watching this with, a bunch of us were WTFing that Ryan was the first person and only person to mention the poor. It was like Bizzaro-world.
posted by corb at 8:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

snickerdoodle: "However, if it gets Democrats fired up, there will be a shift in the polls as more of them lean toward "likely voters." We'll see if it's enough."

Much of the movement in the RAND poll has been due to Democrats becoming less enthusiastic about voting. One hopes that will help. Also, I suspect some voters will be turned off by Ryan's steadfast refusal to get into any kind of specifics about any of his points of dispute. He refused to say what he and Romney would do differently going forward on national security, at least in any concrete way. He refused to provide any specifics on how they plan to write out $5 trillion or more of tax loopholes to pay for their tax cut. He refused to even say what they wanted to use the extra money for the military.

On only one issue did Ryan offer any specifics, and that was his view on abortion. Even there, he did not state what specific actions he would take, only general principles.

I just can't see how anybody who cares about policy could take that performance seriously. I figure the people who are so concerned about Biden's demeanor are probably already in the tank for Romney, so fuck 'em.
posted by wierdo at 8:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

It doesn't cast Ryan as a bullied kid, it casts Biden as an out-of-control drunk uncle at Thanksgiving. Ryan came off as more reasonable - even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.

I had the opposite impression, actually. I think Biden laughed in exasperation when appropriate and was serious when appropriate. I don't think you could hear his responses re: abortion and his losses and the wars and think he wasn't serious. In fact, despite his laughter, I think he was deadly serious the entire time. He takes governing very seriously, despite being a goofy guy. Ryan came across as scared and out of his depth, IMO. Biden's experience/reputation give him the freedom to speak as he did, I think, in a way most politicians couldn't.

And saying Biden was a bully casts Ryan as a victim.
posted by sonmi at 8:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

CNN Quick vote scroll to bottom.

Who do you think fared better in the vice presidential debate?

Biden 65% 4972
Ryan 35% 2652

Total votes: 7624
posted by Skygazer at 8:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

PIEROGI-BASED UPDATE: It's tied between the Steelers and the Titans, 23/23.
posted by jetlagaddict at 8:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Also, from the activist group I'm watching this with, a bunch of us were WTFing that Ryan was the first person and only person to mention the poor. It was like Bizzaro-world.

Not bizarro-world, par for the course in American politics.
posted by murfed13 at 8:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I wonder how much it costs to staff the banks of phone-in callers and news-site-survey clickers to just go nuts for the hour or two after these things. The survey-clickers don't even need to be able to pass for Americans on the phone, and they could be anywhere.

Probably super-cheap.
posted by mhoye at 8:35 PM on October 11, 2012

What was up with Ryan and the water guzzling? It was almost like a nervous tic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:36 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe Biden: Paul Ryan Asked Me For Stimulus Funds
posted by homunculus at 8:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ryan was totally unready to sit at the grownup table.

Yep. I think some of my favorite moments in the debate were those when both Biden and Raddatz were giving Ryan the third degree on a given point. It was just so clear that Ryan's in over his head when it comes to foreign policy, in particular. Biden's foreign-policy expertise is a large part of what got him the VP nomination in 2008, and he's been at the center of the Obama administration's foreign-policy decisions—Ryan should have had the sense to back off on his winding soliloquys and rambling "explanations" of various foreign-policy principles. It was pretty easy to tell when he was trying to feel his way back to the comfortable ground of memorized lines and facile "five-point plans."

But unfortunately, it sounds like the narrative coming from at least some quarters is that those moments were somehow "unprofessional" on the part of the moderator, because she dared to jump right into the fray and challenge Ryan on her topic of expertise, rather than failures on Ryan's part.

To be clear, if I'm biased, it's generally toward reasoning ability and intelligence—and while Ryan's smart, at multiple points, he came off like he was blindly parroting talking points, rather than demonstrating expertise of any sort.
posted by limeonaire at 8:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

@KarlRove I miss Jim Lehrer
posted by girlmightlive at 8:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

What was up with Ryan and the water guzzling? It was almost like a nervous tic.

Duuuude. Gotta stay hydrated for the 2-hour marathons.
posted by Miko at 8:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I could not take my eyes off Ryan's forehead. And the cakeing makeup, as he raised his eyebrows.
posted by Danf at 8:38 PM on October 11, 2012

Also, all this talk of Biden smiling too much ignores the fact that Ryan smiled at Biden creepily throughout the entire debate. Steadily blinking every 4 seconds. Never breaking eye contact. Ahhh!
posted by sonmi at 8:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Win or lose, Biden looked like he was having a blast out there and it was fun to watch. I hope Obama was taking notes.
posted by empath at 8:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ryan came off as more reasonable


Ryan couldn't or wouldn't answer with specifics; that doesn't look shifty, that looks stupid. Biden didn't look "out of control," Biden looked incredulous. Romney and Ryan not supplying specifics at this point is beyond ridiculous, and I'm having trouble believing that even low-information voters haven't recognized this.
posted by faineant at 8:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [23 favorites]

Yep, Ryan had a total Defense Smirk going every time Joe was talking.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:39 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden "disrespectful" is the party line.

And a lot of people will buy it. Something would help though. Show the viewers the time clocks the candidates and moderator see. Much of the time Biden jumped in to prevent Ryan from using the same trick Romney did. If you don't realize that, you'd think he was being a jerk.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

there is a pre-defined media narrative of the "narrow horse race" which will, damn it, be followed no matter the facts

This is absolutely true, and the reason is simple: only a narrow race will keep people sweating, watching, clicking and sharing up to the day of the election.

It also makes it more believable when the vote totals don't match the exit polling, as was the case in both Bush Jr. elections.

Dictators 'win' elections by margins of 99%. Democratic Imperialists 'win' elections by margins of 1%.


Please recall this comment when you're wondering how the fuck "President Romney" is an extant fact on the morning of November 9th.
posted by clarknova at 8:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

These things are a lot more fun when it's your guy doing the ass kicking.
posted by notyou at 8:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

Unfortunately speaking to the plight of poor people is pretty much out of vogue in both parties corb. Lower income Americans typically have lower voter turnout numbers, don't contribute money to campaigns and are excellent scapegoats. Years of demonizing the poor from the right have pretty much left the Democrats unwilling to fight to protect them. From the perspective of lower income Americans both parties leave much to be desired but I think the Republicans are much more hostile towards low income Americans as a general rule.
posted by vuron at 8:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

while Ryan's smart, at multiple points, he came off like he was blindly parroting talking points, rather than demonstrating expertise of any sort.

Oh yeah, Ryan was definitely hitting talking points hard. I think he was in that debate with instructions to humanize Romney at any costs - because that's what's moving the polls.
posted by corb at 8:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

In other debate news:

Warren/Brown III: The Night of Nonsense Liberation

Elizabeth Warren: Warrior princess (or grandmother, same difference) shows how to win a debate
posted by homunculus at 8:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

I wish the VP debates counted for anything, ever.
posted by sonmi at 8:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Also, all this talk of Biden smiling too much ignores the fact that Ryan smiled at Biden creepily throughout the entire debate. Steadily blinking every 4 seconds. Never breaking eye contact. Ahhh!

Yes—it felt like Ryan was trying to pull off that totally comfortable, "Oh, you're saying that now, but have I got an answer for you!" amused smile that Mitt Romney wears so well.
posted by limeonaire at 8:41 PM on October 11, 2012

People don't even listen to what they say.

Way-out-there on the extreme right conservative dumbass^* Facebook friend from decades ago says that Biden's rich, and angrily asks if we really believe that he's going to pay "his fair share".

I bit my tongue. But I really, really wanted to say, OK, good, so you agree that the amount that the rich pay now is less than their fair share.

*: I mean he's conservative and he's a dumbass, not that he's a dumbass because he's conservative, or (necessarily) that he's a conservative because he's a dumbass
posted by Flunkie at 8:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

5-point plan. Kiss my ass.

Here's a "5-point plan."

1. Make America awesome again.
2. Reduce the deficit.
3. Cut taxes across the board.
4. Make Medicare and Social Security solvent again.
5. Reduce dependency on foreign energy.

THAT'S NOT A PLAN. Those are things you wish were the case. Those are 5 possible outcomes of a plan.

It reminds me of when I teach my math classes. I ask students what the Pythagorean Theorem is, and they say "a^2 + b^2 = c^2." No, that's not it. Theorems are not their conclusions. Plans are not their desired outcomes. Let's please understand this.
posted by King Bee at 8:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [50 favorites]

Nice,MSNBC has Ezra Klein on. "resident wonk".
posted by Ad hominem at 8:43 PM on October 11, 2012

On the bullying thing, I think it's important to note that Ryan didn't hesitate to interrupt Biden when he thought he'd caught Biden out on something - but Ryan didn't have as many things to call Biden on as Biden did Ryan, and Ryan interrupted with talking points while Biden interrupted with facts.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

*: I mean he's conservative and he's a dumbass, not that he's a dumbass because he's conservative, or (necessarily) that he's a conservative because he's a dumbass

Who are you trying to convince?
posted by clarknova at 8:44 PM on October 11, 2012

a picture is worth a thousand words
posted by liza at 8:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Facebook friend from decades ago says that Biden's rich, and angrily asks if we really believe that he's going to pay "his fair share".

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I think it's always good to remember Biden is about as un-wealthy as it's possible to be while being a senior member of the US govt.
posted by saturday_morning at 8:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

a picture is worth a thousand words

grrrrr
posted by saturday_morning at 8:47 PM on October 11, 2012

Who are you trying to convince?

clarknova, I am highly confident that this guy's dumbassitude is a real thing. If you want to believe that I believe that only because he's way out on the fringe, well, OK I guess. Feel free.
posted by Flunkie at 8:47 PM on October 11, 2012

THAT'S NOT A PLAN. Those are things you wish were the case. Those are 5 possible outcomes of a plan.

I know your 5 points were kind of a parady, but honestly they're pretty close to the actual plan, which is indeed a completely vacuous wish list, not a plan.
posted by Miko at 8:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

What the hell are you even talking about now clarknova, you keep on acting like Romney is a foregone conclusion when a week ago he was all but destroyed in every credible electoral vote tally. The truth of the matter is that the state level polling is still strongly in favor of Obama even while Romney is enjoying his first solid week of decent polling in ages. Statistically speaking debates have never really influenced elections by a really significant margin and most of Romney's gains are already being shed back as the campaigns return to equilibrium. Furthermore most of Romney's gain have been made in regards to the supposed enthuisasm gap which is probably smaller than many pollers are actually giving credit for.

Can Romney still win this election? Certainly, nobody credible is going to suggest otherwise. But to suggest that Romney has this in the bag? No there simply isn't any credible evidence to support that currently.
posted by vuron at 8:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Ryan came off like the treasurer of the high school debate team who has decided to try to take on the local District Attorney.

He got his punk ass handed to him, and it couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.

I do wish that Biden had finished stronger, and, in particular, that he had used the question about the nastiness of the campaign to point out that the that is almost entirely attributable to the GOP and the politics of personal destruction that has formed the cornerstone of their approach since the Clinton administration...

But it was an extremely solid win, much better than I thought was reasonably possible.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 8:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Here's a "5-point plan."

1. Make America awesome again.
2. Reduce the deficit.
3. Cut taxes across the board.
4. Make Medicare and Social Security solvent again.
5. Reduce dependency on foreign energy.

So true. It's not a plan. It's a list of fantasy outcomes. Its a list of New Years Resolutions.
posted by cacofonie at 8:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Skipping ahead an hour of how fast I can read your comments, I'd like to reiterate -- Martha Raddatz moderated this debate like a master. So impressed.
posted by wallabear at 8:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Biden had EVERYTHING - the backstory, the facts, the contextual situation that could only have come FROM ACTUALLY DOING THE JOB.

And Ryan had quavering recitation of talking points and the kind of exasperating, simpering swagger that comes from thinking your football is the only one anyone's ever going to get to play with.

TOTAL MISMATCH. LUNCHBOX BROUGHT IT. Biden should send him flowers and a card tomorrow.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 8:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

jetlagaddict: "PIEROGI-BASED UPDATE: It's tied between the Steelers and the Titans, 23/23."

My daughter (future POTUS) just heard words out of my mouth I do not think she's ever heard before.

Yes, she should be in bed already.

Fucking fuck.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 8:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I do wish that Biden had finished stronger, and, in particular, that he had used the question about the nastiness of the campaign to point out that the that is almost entirely attributable to the GOP and the politics of personal destruction that has formed the cornerstone of their approach since the Clinton administration...

At that point, I was begging for Biden to show some mercy. It was probably a good thing he let it go on a less aggressive note...
posted by sonmi at 8:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I was really impressed by how Ryan explained the details of his proposal to cut taxes, raise defense spending, save Medicare and balance the budget by closing completely unspecified loopholes. He was so serious! When Biden laughed and called it malarkey, that really lowered the tone.
posted by leopard at 8:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

triggerfinger: "Also, don't miss The Onion's "Diamond Joe" persona live-tweeting the debate on their official Twitter stream.

I love this! Diamond Joe is basically Jim Anchower."

I fucking love that they name drop the Come Back... <3 hometown love...
posted by symbioid at 8:53 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm just excited that we get to make semi-ironic use of the word "malarkey." God damn that shit's fun to say.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I know. Tomorrow's Malarkey day!
posted by Miko at 8:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

So true. It's not a plan. It's a list of fantasy outcomes. Its a list of New Years Resolutions.

Five-Point Plan For America
=================

1. Get rid of that creep Obama
2. Lose 10 pounds
3. Show those Russians we're no Rocky 3!!!!
4. Quit smoking
5. Win at life
posted by Superplin at 8:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

Ryan looked like he got a weird taste in his mouth whenever he was called on flipping his own past personal views to match Romney's. I'd really be interested in reading the shit he slings in his autobiography years after the dust settles from this, because I get the feeling that he's a guy who loves himself so much that he feels like he could win this singlehandedly if he wasn't chained to Romney.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

1. Tiger blood
2. Warlock
3. Winning
4. Adonis DNA
5. Strafing runs in our underwear
posted by Flunkie at 8:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

closing completely unspecified loopholes.

Now, now, he did specify one. He said that they'd eliminate the mortgage interest deduction for high income people. I'm sure that the Republican base would be cheered by this fiscal move, if anyone would point it out to them. Romney/Ryan: We'll make you pay interest on your home mortgages!

RYAN: Yeah, we're saying close loopholes...

RADDATZ: Home mortgage deduction?

RYAN: ... on high-interest people.

RADDATZ: Home mortgage deduction?

RYAN: For higher-income people. Here...

BIDEN: Can you guarantee that no one making less than $100,000 will have a mortgage -- their mortgage deduction impacted? Guarantee?
posted by winna at 9:00 PM on October 11, 2012

Alas, the internet doesn't wanna tell me what the etymology of "malarkey" is, so I can't really get full mileage out of annoying people with it.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

1. Get contacts
2. Better haircut
3. Have braces removed
4. Start wearing bra
5. ME + QUARTERBACK = PROM!!!
posted by Miko at 9:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [23 favorites]

I have next to no real context for this debate. I'm Canadian. I'll never vote in a US election. While the outcome will affect me tangentially, I will not have an impact on it.

I watched this debate on XBOX Live's feed, because that's what's hooked up to my TV. The feed has an instant polling feature. A question pops up on your screen, you select an option and and see the communal results. I would estimate 90% of their instant polling questions for this debate came down in the Democratic ticket's favour, generally at 60% or higher. If you're at all familiar with the kind of animals who populate XBOX Live, this is surprising and heartening. Maybe most of the outright monsters don't bother to tune into political debates, but I'm choosing to be optimistic this evening. I also think that Biden kicked Ryan all over that stage.
posted by figurant at 9:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Meanwhile, in Mitt Romney news, Mitt was just on David Letterman. He walked out on stage and said "I don't have any proof, but I think Canada's up to something" and then walked off. Wtf? Dave said Lucy Liu is on next - is Mitt not even staying for an interview?
posted by triggerfinger at 9:02 PM on October 11, 2012

Weird. Tonight's guests: Lucy Liu, Rob Corddry, Daughter. No Mitt.
posted by shortfuse at 9:03 PM on October 11, 2012

Clearly Lucy Liu is about to be hijacked by Canadians.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Gotta love that word malarkey
Rings of old-time honesty
In a world where everyone's snarky
It reminds us of integrity

I call malarkey! Yes, malarkey!
Much nicer than "BS"
When deep in a debate crapfest
I call malarkey on your empty arguments.
posted by Superplin at 9:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I don't have any proof, but I think Canada's up to something

In Mitt's defence, we totally are,

Surprise birthday party for next July 4. Shh.
posted by figurant at 9:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

Alas, the internet doesn't wanna tell me what the etymology of "malarkey" is, so I can't really get full mileage out of annoying people with it.

OED says "origin unknown". Notes that an Irish surname "Mullarkey" exists, but that there's no known link. Also notes a suggested etymology from ancient Greek μαλακός or μαλακία, i.e. soft or softness, "in figurative use".
posted by Flunkie at 9:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Triggerfinger I think that's old footage of Romney doing a top ten list or something.
posted by dog food sugar at 9:06 PM on October 11, 2012

Unfortunately, if you want another verse, your options for a rhyme are "darkie" and, uh, "narc-y"?
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:07 PM on October 11, 2012

Sparky. "That's a bunch of malarkey, Sparky."
posted by Flunkie at 9:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I also found this thing saying it's maybe possibly conceivably from an Irish word for "deception," but it seems like they're just sorta throwing it out there without any evidence. Which is appropriate, but still.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

4. Quit smoking 5. Win at life #YOLO
posted by octobersurprise at 9:09 PM on October 11, 2012

If you really want to step into the twilight zone, turn on Fox News.

Hannity's show was unbelievable. For him to call another man rude and condescending is obscene. The pot on my stove actually jumped up, ran over to the television and started shouting things like "you're fucking black, you goddamned kettle!"

I've been watching Fox News for the past hour and a half now, and now they're interviewing the so-called "Tobin Ryan" with his wife and children. I really want him to start talking about his popular tome, Tobin's Spirit Guide.

OK, I need to stop drinking and posting. Goodnight, everybody!
posted by King Bee at 9:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

Flunkie wins at not-gravitating-towards-the-horribly-offensive-rhyme-when-there-are-perfectly-good-inoffensive-ones-around!
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:11 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe Biden Creamed Paul Ryan In Debate: Survey.
posted by ericb at 9:12 PM on October 11, 2012

Unfortunately, if you want another verse, your options for a rhyme are "darkie" and, uh, "narc-y"?

That's why the chorus doesn't depend on a rhyme with "malarkey." Too limiting. The verses are free to use any rhymes at all!
posted by Superplin at 9:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Malarkey is meaningless talk, nonsense or foolishness.
It’s still known in the US and to a lesser extent in the UK and elsewhere, but where this odd-looking word comes from is decidedly uncertain. What we do know is that it began to appear in the US in the early 1920s in various spellings, such as malaky, malachy, and mullarkey. Its first known user was the cartoonist T A Dorgan, in 1922, but it only began to appear widely at the end of the decade. By 1930, Variety could pun on it: “The song is ended but the Malarkey lingers on.”
Various theories have been advanced. Eric Partridge pointed to the modern Greek word malakia but he formed a group of one. His later editor, Paul Beale, noted the London expression Madame Misharty, the personification of sales talk, exaggerated claims, and wild predictions, a name that was supposedly that of a fortune teller. But this is stretching a possible linguistic link to breaking point and, in any case, we know it started life in North America. Others point to the family name Malarkey, though who the eponymous member of the tribe might have been whose Irish-derived gift of the gab could have given rise to the name remains unknown. Jonathon Green likewise suggests a Irish origin in mullachan, a strongly-built boy or ruffian, though this, too, seems a stretch of meaning.

.Some researchers have suggested possible links to the Irish word “mullachan,” meaning a strong boy or a ruffian, or to the modern Greek word “malakia,” which means, among other things, worthlessness.

Others think it might come from the Irish family name “Mullarkey” and its various spellings. Both Michael Quinion (World Wide Words) and Evan Morris (The Word Detective) suggest the source may be a notorious, long-forgotten Mullarkey.

The word seems to have been popularized by the American newspaper cartoonist T.A. Dorgan, known as Tad, who also helped popularize the terms “hard-boiled” and “kibitzer” in his drawings.

posted by Miko at 9:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

OK, last post. Karl Rove just said that they put "Joker Juice" in Biden's water. What the hell is "Joker Juice?"
posted by King Bee at 9:15 PM on October 11, 2012

Fox News Goes Off On Biden: 'Rude,' 'Unhinged,' 'Cranky Old Man'.
posted by ericb at 9:15 PM on October 11, 2012

Well. I think there is value in the ideas and energy on both sides of the aisle. I think there is a natural and necessary ebb and flow between opposite views. I think different times call for different leaders. I think politics is both reason and rhetoric and at the same time much more than that. I think all politicians are opportunistic bastards, but then so am I.

But Ryan's performance tonight, well. If there was any doubt left, he removed it. American conservatism - if we should call it that - is a barren wasteland. I am not even talking about the class warfare or the canned delivery or the aggressive, frankly hostile view on foreign politics. Even when you discount that, not a single one of the ideas presented is new, smart or appealing in any way. How can you possibly say we need to cut taxes when infrastructure is crumbling, education has turned into a racket, and debt is astronomical? How can you possibly flirt with military action in Syria and Iran when it will take another fifteen years at least to fully come to terms with the mess that is Iraq and Afghanistan? How can you possibly push for market reforms when we are in the middle of the most catastrophic failure of the market in, well, who knows where it will end?

This is a toxic wasteland of thought and it needs to be fucking quarantined for a a couple of decades, like Chernobyl. Then perhaps something of value can grow there again. Mother of God. What a waste.
posted by deo rei at 9:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [37 favorites]

I really want him to start talking about his popular tome, Tobin's Spirit Guide.

Every Catholic's favorite book of the Bible is Tobit. Oops, I've said too much.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:16 PM on October 11, 2012

Mitt just walked onto stage on Letterman again - "Live from New York, it's Saturday night!"
posted by triggerfinger at 9:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Pundit Reaction To Vice Presidential Debate All Over The Map.
posted by ericb at 9:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Ha!
posted by HuronBob at 9:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

If you take the Latin prefix mal- (wrong, bad) and put it with the Greek αρχή (basis, principle), you probably aren't any closer to the actual provenance of the word, but... malarkey!
posted by droomoord at 9:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

octobersurprise: "I really want him to start talking about his popular tome, Tobin's Spirit Guide.

Every Catholic's favorite book of the Bible is Tobit. Oops, I've said too much."

My favorite is the Song of Solomon. Sexy!
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 9:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

How awkward would it be if Biden gets really confident with a win this election and thinks he can run for President in 2016, where he has to run against Hillary?
posted by amuseDetachment at 9:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

*: I mean he's conservative and he's a dumbass, not that he's a dumbass because he's conservative, or (necessarily) that he's a conservative because he's a dumbass

clarknova, I am highly confident that this guy's dumbassitude is a real thing.

No I meant who were you trying to convince the two aren't causally related.
It's a rhetorical question. You don't need to answer.


What the hell are you even talking about now clarknova, you keep on acting like Romney is a foregone conclusion when a week ago he was all but destroyed in every credible electoral vote tally.

I was acting that way before that oh-so-shocking turnaround, too.

With Ryan on his ticket Romney has the full spectrum of the conservative electorate. He has an order of magnitude more money than his opponent. He has several iterations of favorable redistricting on his side. He has an extensive and highly successful campaign of voter suppression in his favor. He has the allegiance of the largest manufacturer of unaccountable voting machines. And if it comes to a Supreme Court case he has a bench majority.

If you can explain how Barack's campaign transcends these advantages by all means let us know.
posted by clarknova at 9:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I didn't understand this gif until I saw those Time photos just now.
posted by book 'em dano at 9:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

How awkward would it be if Biden gets really confident with a win this election and thinks he can run for President in 2016, where he has to run against Hillary?

He could be Vice President for Life. . . .
posted by Danf at 9:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

How awkward would it be if Biden gets really confident with a win this election and thinks he can run for President in 2016, where he has to run against Hillary?
posted by amuseDetachment at 9:22 PM on October 11 [+]

Awkward. But I think Biden is headed for well-deserved retirement.
posted by murfed13 at 9:25 PM on October 11, 2012

We have the smallest Navy since before WWI? That is so ridiculous isn't it? Are we going keep hundreds of unneeded active destroyers and battleships when a few aircraft carriers and missile boats have orders of magnitude more power? That's like saying we need to increase the military budget because we have the smallest cavalry since the civil war.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [24 favorites]

But I think Biden is headed for well-deserved retirement.

I agree. I love Biden, he's honest, he's smart, he's experienced, but I don't think he's Presidential material, nor do I think he wants the job.
posted by HuronBob at 9:29 PM on October 11, 2012

Romney was all over the moderator last week, interrupting him left & right. No one said anything about that last week. Talking heads are already accusing Biden of bad debate behavior.
posted by murfed13 at 9:55 PM on October 11

Yeah, this. I reallly hope Stewart calls out some talking heads on this tomorrow.
posted by marsha56 at 9:32 PM on October 11, 2012

That was an awesome debate! Biden was on and he was great! Really, really great! He defended the Obama-Biden record, called out Romney and Ryan's bullshit (he literally called it bullshit!), and showed amazing energy for a 69 year old man.

Martha Raddatz did a great job. I didn't think a network news reporter would have it in her, but she's covered some of the most dangerous areas of the world, so two politicians are not going shake her. Plus, I think the right wing made a serious mistake trying to mau-mau her before the debates.

The worse moment for Ryan, I thought, among many bad moments, was when he said to Biden, "I know you're under a lot of duress". To me, that came off as a bit of an outburst and a clear sign that Biden had gotten under his skin.

Biden may have overdid his laughing and interrupting shtick just a tad, but I think it was the correct strategy. Romney and Ryan are master liars and gaslighters. You have to break their rhythm so each lie can be isolated and rebutted.

One of my favorite parts was when Biden described future Obama-appointed Supreme Court judges as "open-minded". Ryan asked, "You have a litmus test?" Biden: "No litmus test. I said "open-minded". Try harder, Sonny-boy, this is Biden we're talking about.

One last thing to add: I don't think it's as important for undecideds to "like" Biden. What was important was that Biden tore strips off the Romney's hide.
posted by Bokmakierie at 9:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

I agree. I love Biden, he's honest, he's smart, he's experienced, but I don't think he's Presidential material, nor do I think he wants the job.

Then why does he keep trying to get it?
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:32 PM on October 11, 2012

The Veep Debate: Tweet Reax, Andrew Sullivan, The Dish, 11 Oct, 2012

P.S. It looks like a) Sully has climbed off the ledge and is back inside the building now, and b) He promised to, at the conclusion of the debate, take a shot of Jager for every time Ryan lied and is now quite drunk.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Bad News: Missed debates this evening (its recorded)

Better news : new episode of Red Dwarf just came down the pipe
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 9:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

From the Guardian liveblog: "Axelrod portrayed it as clear win for Biden. "It was like looking at the school principal debating the student president."" Ouch.
posted by shortfuse at 9:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Talking heads are already accusing Biden of bad debate behavior.

In fact, what came across was a man who cared deeply about how policies enacted by government would affect regular people. This is a stark contrast to Romney who thinks it's normal to flip flop all over the place, whenever it's expedient. Biden clearly showed his disgust at that type of politics.
posted by Bokmakierie at 9:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

I agree. Biden has always struck me as sincere. More so than Obama, if I may say so.
posted by murfed13 at 9:39 PM on October 11, 2012

How awkward would it be if Biden gets really confident with a win this election and thinks he can run for President in 2016, where he has to run against Hillary?

He won't run if Hillary runs. But if Hillary doesn't run, I thought it was a foregone conclusion that he would run.
posted by Bokmakierie at 9:40 PM on October 11, 2012

At the very least, I want him to run to make the primary debates amazing.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:41 PM on October 11, 2012

He has an order of magnitude more money than his opponent.

This isn't true. Do you know what "order of magnitude" means?

He has several iterations of favorable redistricting on his side.

This affects Congressional elections, not Presidential ones. With the exception of Maine and Nebraska, electoral votes are awarded state-wide; so gerrymandering doesn't affect them.

He has an extensive and highly successful campaign of voter suppression in his favor.

Not really. Most of them have been delayed or weakened in court.

He has the allegiance of the largest manufacturer of unaccountable voting machines. And if it comes to a Supreme Court case he has a bench majority.

All of which were true in 2008 as well.

If you can explain how Barack's campaign transcends these advantages by all means let us know.

I guess you know what you're talking about, given that you are on a first-name basis with the President.

Stop chicken little-ing. The first debate didn't alter the fundamentals of the race. Obama has somewhere between a 70% and 80% chance of being reelected.
posted by spaltavian at 9:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

He'd be what, 73 in 2016? That's second term Reagan age. I kind of see Biden living to 120 and staying in politics forever and ever, but that's pretty old for a presidential candidate.
posted by sonmi at 9:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Most distrubing thing to come out of tonight's debates. What if Biden and Ryan switched hair.. I don't even...
posted by Ad hominem at 9:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [34 favorites]

But I think Biden is headed for well-deserved retirement.

In four years, I pray. He's too old. The Dems would want someone who could last two terms if they do well. Biden would be 82 in 2024. Maybe he could run for the Senate again. I think he actually loves the job. Andrew Johnson went back to the Senate after his presidency.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:50 PM on October 11, 2012

I actually prefer Biden in the number two spot. I think he'd make a fine president, but as VP he has more freedom to Biden it up to his heart's content. As prez he'd have more constraints, so we'd have fewer opportunities to savor the full flavor of Joe. Which would be sad.
posted by Superplin at 9:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

This is a great picture of Obama watching the debate.
posted by amuseDetachment at 9:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Why isn't he taking notes?!
posted by sonmi at 9:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

He'd be what, 73 in 2016?

He'd be two weeks shy of his 74th birthday on election day. I highly doubt he'll run. Hillary Clinton would be 69; probably too old as well. (I'd predict the nomination is hers if she wants it, but I'd have serious doubts about winning the general.)

The two near certain candidates at this point are Governor Martin O'Malley of Maryland and Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York. I really can't stand Cuomo, and I've been mostly please with O'Malley here in Maryland.
posted by spaltavian at 9:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Yes, Hillary is almost too old and Biden has 5 years on her.
posted by murfed13 at 9:55 PM on October 11, 2012

Elizabeth Warren !
posted by iamabot at 9:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

I want to see Biden apologize in a few days for losing his temper.

Specifically saying "I am very aware of how government policies effect americans lives and how they can save or harm them. I was offended by Ryan's lack of any clear policy at a time where Americans should know how the Presidential nominees are planning to accomplish things. He was disgracing the forum of debate and conversation as he wasn't speaking honestly or truthfully, and I felt it was my duty to correct him."

Or something akin to "Dude pissed me off he was lying so goddamn much, you're lucky I didn't go all Buzz Aldrin vs Moon Conspiracy theoryist on the boy, thats how much sense he was making and how much it had offended all the work myself, and other Americans had put in to making this country better for everyone."
posted by mrzarquon at 10:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Considering that Mario was deterred from running because of a "mob ties" whisper compaing I hope Andrew runs just to set things right. Would be great to have a president from New York, even if he is from Queens, who's last name ends in a vowel.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:01 PM on October 11, 2012

Elizabeth Warren is having a hard time against Scott Brown in Massachusetts. If you can't win MA with a Democrat, your chances in the general are slim.
posted by sophist at 10:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

> Elizabeth Warren !

Yes, Warren/Castro 2016?
posted by mrzarquon at 10:01 PM on October 11, 2012

VP Debate 2012: The Real Paul Ryan Is Bad for America
posted by homunculus at 10:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

> Elizabeth Warren is having a hard time against Scott Brown in Massachusetts. If you can't win MA with a Democrat, your chances in the general are slim.

To be fair, the GOP knows they stole that seat on a whim, so they are funneling any money they would have spent on Romney in that state into Brown's campaign instead.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Would be great to have a president from New York, even if he is from Queens, who's last name ends in a vowel.

I read Mario as Marlo, and was confused because Marlo is from Baltimore. Omar for VP.
posted by clearly at 10:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Wow, Sarah Palin actually had the cajones to accuse Raddatz of letting Joe Biden talk over Ryan. Did she not watch last week's debate?
posted by wierdo at 10:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Wow, Sarah Palin actually had the cajones......

Actually, we removed those a few years ago.....
posted by HuronBob at 10:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Elizabeth Warren is having a hard time against Scott Brown in Massachusetts. If you can't win MA with a Democrat, your chances in the general are slim.


Whose chances? I can't imagine an answer that makes this comment make sense, but still.

Anyway, Massachusetts is extremely blue in Presidential elections, but state-wide offices are not so lopsided. Two of the last three governors have been Republican, for example. This is possible because any successful Republican in Mass. runs well to the left of the national GOP.

Finally, Warren is most likely going to win, but the closeness of the election doesn't say anything about the 2012 cycle in general. Brown is an incumbent, which brings a lot of advantages, and he himself won in an idiosyncratic election. Brown doesn't match the national GOP profile, and because of the Consumer Protection Bureau fight, Warren is somewhat of a known quantity.

Nothing about that race tells you anything about any other race.
posted by spaltavian at 10:13 PM on October 11, 2012

Hey, at least Palin has a career as a hack talking head shill on cable news.

If Romney doesn't win, Ryan's political future is pretty much over, he'll never be able to do anything above tenuously representing his district in the House. It's especially clear now why the smart Republicans stayed the hell away from a VP offer.
posted by amuseDetachment at 10:13 PM on October 11, 2012

Wow, Sarah Palin actually had the cajones......

Whose they were, we do not know.
posted by mazola at 10:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

This isn't true. Do you know what "order of magnitude" means?

It means the product of ten and the original number. Do you know what "Super PAC" means? I'm guessing you do but it's a thought you're deliberately repressing.


I guess you know what you're talking about, given that you are on a first-name basis with the President.

Oh zing. You really made your case there.


All of which were true in 2008 as well.

When even conservatives were sick of their own bullshit. Those people that voted for Bush two terms in a row? Who pretended they knew him not during the McCain/Obama race? They've forgotten again and now they're all voting Mitt.


Stop chicken little-ing. The first debate didn't alter the fundamentals of the race. Obama has somewhere between a 70% and 80% chance of being reelected.

Yeah. Maybe you should actually read the thread. You might have spotted the link I already posted. That "between a 70% and 80% chance" is now down to roughly 66%. Far from "not altering the fundamentals of the race", this precipitous drop in support you haven't even noticed was a direct result of the first debate.

And I didn't even mention the way Barack fragmented his base by reneging on campaign promises (whereas Romney has consolidated his). Or how he squandered all the OWS momentum he could have leveraged by allowing conservative governors to indulge in police-state crackdowns. Or how he lets his opponents walk all over him in practically every rhetorical battle. Or how he failed to do anything with a super-majority except capitulate to high finance. Or how the man behaves like the personification of the archetypical democrat, "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory", his 2008 shoe-in not withstanding.

I understand your wishful thinking. I really do. I want you to be right and me to be wrong. Come election day I want to eat that crow. I pray your wings take dream.
posted by clarknova at 10:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh, I liked that article a lot, homunculous. Funny/witty it is. TY.
posted by rmmcclay at 10:15 PM on October 11, 2012

The punchline from that withering and amusing Esquire piece homunculus links above is tasty:

For years, Paul Ryan has been the shining champion of some really terrible ideas, and of a dystopian vision of the political commonwealth in which the poor starve and the elderly die ghastly, impoverished deaths, while all the essential elements of a permanent American oligarchy were put in place. This has garnered him loving notices from a lot of people who should have known better. The ideas he could explain were bad enough, but the profound ignorance he displayed on Thursday night on a number of important questions, including when and where the United States might wind up going to war next, and his blithe dismissal of any demand that he be specific about where he and his running mate are planning to take the country generally, was so positively terrifying that it calls into question Romney's judgment for putting this unqualified greenhorn on the ticket at all. Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.

You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?

Lipstick.

but you know, I still think Ryan scored points with, to be indelicate, the Dummies. For us smart, educated, and devastatingly good-looking Metafilter types with our honed, raised-pinky refinement, there was a good bit of bullshit-dispersion going on. But I completely understand if the Republican faithful swooned, because commentary like the bit I quoted above aside, and no matter how loathsome the realities of his policies might actually be, I don't think he embarrassed himself at all.

More's the pity.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:17 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

but you know, I still think Ryan scored points with, to be indelicate, the Dummies.

Of course he did. He could of (insert some gross physical act here, because I can't bring myself to post it) and that demographic would have cheered and experienced some right wing orgasmic response.
posted by HuronBob at 10:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Look, as far as I'm concerned, if these debates are all that it takes to win elections in the US, you might as well close shop and start a new reality television show called America's Idle Rich or something, and elect people through phone.
posted by the cydonian at 10:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

We have the smallest Navy since before WWI? That is so ridiculous isn't it?

Republican talking points often gravitate to One, Two, Few, Many, More reasoning. It's mostly for crap in terms of logic, but it makes for some fine talking points. There's no way my mother-in-law (who has gone all staunch republican) could ever hope to follow arguments about projected power, multi-role aircraft capability or inter-theater response times but she gets that 20 is bigger than 10.

Also, look at where the naval construction yards are. It's a lot like his commentary about coal in the first debate.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 10:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

2nding the people saying Warren's small lead (vs Obama's lead in MA) isn't really indicative of anything. Martha Coakley is living proof that just being a democrat isn't enough to win a senate seat. Massachusetts is weird in that lots of people here like to elect republicans occasionally to keep things 'balanced.' And outside of Boston and parts of western MA there lots of people are very into the 'independent thinker with a TRUCK' image that Scott Brown pushes hard-- he's pretty much running as an independent, pro-choice candidate and distancing himself far from the GOP as possible. Warren's also a novice to campaigning (and isn't super good at it, honestly, despite a great debate performance earlier).

Personally, I don't think Warren will go for the presidency. I think Deval Patrick will, though.
posted by sonmi at 10:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I still think Ryan scored points with, to be indelicate, the Dummies.

Yeah. The dummies are who Ryan is there for. He appeals to people like my farmer neighbor: who lives by the grace of farm subsidies and whose cancer-riddled six year old escaped recision by the grace of Obamacare. And who still wants to end gubmint handouts and 'repeal and replace'. Who wouldn't have voted Elephant this time because Romney is too lib'rul. Whose neighbors and neighbor's neighbors and neighbors' neighbors' neighbors all think the same.

You may want to self-deprecate in some genteel way, but this nation is stuffed to the gills with hick morons who embody every stereotype you think it's improper to take seriously. People you are the intellectual superior to in nearly every way. Go to one of their rallies. Listen to their gorilla hoots of "USA USA USA!" Feel their grotesque, triumphalist energy. The dummies are real, frothing, vital, and hungry.

Speaking of "Obamacare", I guess it's okay to call it that now as Barack has tried to pull off some kind of verbal Jujitsu by using the term, thus validating the conservative frame. Now there's a fucking dummy for you.
posted by clarknova at 10:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Clarknova:
Obama didn't "allow" state governors to execute crackdowns on OWS. No, his executive branch agency, DHS, co-ordinated the crackdown.
Here's an article.
posted by wuwei at 10:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Obama didn't "allow" state governors to execute crackdowns on OWS. No, his executive branch agency, DHS, co-ordinated the crackdown.

Oh right. I remember now. I'd just repressed it. See how hard it is to face facts? Even I can't bear to do it, and I had practically nothing invested in him.
posted by clarknova at 10:38 PM on October 11, 2012

You may want to self-deprecate in some genteel way, but this nation is stuffed to the gills with hick morons who embody every stereotype you think it's improper to take seriously. People you are the intellectual superior to in nearly every way. Go to one of their rallies. Listen to their gorilla hoots of "USA USA USA!" Feel their grotesque, triumphalist energy. The dummies are real, frothing, vital, and hungry.

Hell, I grew up in rural northern BC. I am very familiar with the dummies comma Canuckstyle. I have many old friends who proudly count themselves part of the cohort. I have very few illusions on that count, for what it's worth.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Clarknova: Visited some of the Tea Party rallies in my town.

Came away severely worried about the stability of my neighbors.
posted by Archelaus at 10:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Also, I think that's the first time anyone's ever suggested I was 'genteel'. I quite like it!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

If you can explain how Barack's campaign transcends these advantages by all means let us know.

clarknova makes some great points, but I still would like to point out that Obama leads projected Electoral College votes. In a first-past-the-post system, popular vote is only useful for a newscycle searching for a horserace.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I figured Ryan attaching himself to Romney 2012 would be the death of his political aspirations but even I didn't think he'd deliver the death blow to himself.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

And I didn't even mention the way Barack fragmented his base by reneging on campaign promises (whereas Romney has consolidated his)

Honest question -- why is it "Barack" vs "Romney"?
posted by inigo2 at 10:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

This isn't true. Do you know what "order of magnitude" means?

It means the product of ten and the original number. Do you know what "Super PAC" means? I'm guessing you do but it's a thought you're deliberately repressing.

Let's look at some actual numbers on Open Secrets. I added up each one that raised at least $1 million in a spreadsheet. The ones Open Secrets described as conservative totaled $247,129,143. The ones described as liberal totaled $103,362,885. It's twice as much, not an order of magnitude. Also, notice that a lot of the ones in the conservative column are left over from the primary.

Far from "not altering the fundamentals of the race", this precipitous drop in support you haven't even noticed was a direct result of the first debate.

So, in other words, the President has maintained the lead he's had for nearly a year? Including in Ohio and Virginia, states Romney can't win without. We're back more or less to where we were before Charlotte. Plus we're going to get another narrative about Obama "comes swinging" back after the next two debates. Journalists write lazy stories; which is why the debate "loss" got blown out of proportion to begin with.

When even conservatives were sick of their own bullshit. Those people that voted for Bush two terms in a row? Who pretended they knew him not during the McCain/Obama race? They've forgotten again and now they're all voting Mitt.

Conservatives have never been sick of their own bullshit. Obama didn't win in 2008 because he won conservative votes; he won because he expanded the Democratic base in ways that's never happened before. When you do the breakouts, you see that Obama's numbers didn't look that different than Kerry's (with the exception of Hispanics). Obama just got a lot more of those people to votes. And Hispanics have a very stark choice this year, so not worried about their numbers.

And I didn't even mention the way Barack fragmented his base by reneging on campaign promises

This is a pretty typical misreading of what the Democratic base is. The net-roots is not the base. Obama spent the spring and summer nakedly shoring up the blocs of his base. Gays, Hispanics, African-Americans, college-educated women and union households all had Christmas early this year.

all the OWS momentum he could have leveraged

I love how only three sentences after this, you accuse me of wishful thinking.
posted by spaltavian at 10:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Honest question -- why is it "Barack" vs "Romney"?

Yeah, Barry-O vs R-Money is a lot more fun to say!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

spaltavian and clarknova, you guys both make interesting points that, taken together, are thought-provoking. It's kind of a shame there is a personal element involved in the back-and-forth. It's also damned impressive that spaltavian did some research and compiled a spreadsheet just to make a MF comment!
posted by KokuRyu at 10:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's also a factor that Romney pays more for advertising, sometimes by a very large margin. Another factor is that Obama lost the air-headed and easily-swayed vote; making further inroads in swing states is going to be progressively harder for Romney. The votes he gained were the people who were going to vote for Romney just a couple of months ago, despite all of the problems with his background. Now he needs to win over people who were *not* going to vote for him precisely because of his background and mistakes.
posted by rainy at 11:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I added up each one that raised at least $1 million in a spreadsheet. The ones Open Secrets described as conservative totaled $247,129,143.

I expanded it to every Super Pac on the list that has raised at least $100. Here is what we get:

Liberal (as defined by Open Secrets)

Raise: $113,426,759
Independent Expenditures $109,190,064

Conservative (as defined by Open secrets)

Raise: $267,934,865
Independent Expenditures: $242,895,617

Here's the spreadsheet if anyone wants to mess with it. Nothing special.

It's also damned impressive that spaltavian did some research and compiled a spreadsheet just to make a MF comment!

Would have been better, but I'm using a trackpad because I'm on vacation.

It's kind of a shame there is a personal element involved in the back-and-forth.

Yeah, I'm sorry for the "Do you know what orders of magnitude means?" phrasing. Wasn't necessary.
posted by spaltavian at 11:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's also a factor that Romney pays more for advertising, sometimes by a very large margin.

That's a very interesting and astute observation. I've heard it before but have not seen a whole lot of detail; do you have anything I where I can learn more about what's going on with that?
posted by spaltavian at 11:13 PM on October 11, 2012

Mod note: Comment deleted; if you can't answer a question without sarcastically calling someone a racist, maybe avoid commenting until you can do better.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:18 PM on October 11, 2012

IIRC, spaltavian, presidential campaigns (ie funded by direct donations) can command lower ad-buy rates than PACs and SuperPACs.

Last thought before bed regarding homunculus' link: I always only knew Charlie Pierce as a kinda funny guy on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, but he's been knocking it out of the park this election season.
posted by Phire at 11:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

spaltavian: unfortunately that's just something I've seen referenced in the old thread. I think the nature of the difference in ad costs is such that it would be hard to estimate precisely if this will play much role. I've heard it differs by each local station, etc.
posted by rainy at 11:22 PM on October 11, 2012

Let's look at some actual numbers on Open Secrets. I added up each one that raised at least $1 million in a spreadsheet. The ones Open Secrets described as conservative totaled $247,129,143. The ones described as liberal totaled $103,362,885. It's twice as much, not an order of magnitude. Also, notice that a lot of the ones in the conservative column are left over from the primary. \

THAT is a fair point. One of the things about SuperPACs is you don't know how much money is really being spent. For example I notice The Chamber of Commerce isn't in there, and it's well known they're funneling enormous quantities towards Romney.

But whatever! If I assume Romney being high-finance's first choice means ten times more money than we know about is being spent on him, I'm obviously engaging in Rumsfeld-style soviet paranoia, which is a crackpot fantasy I can't back up. I'm just going by the advertising for Romney I see in the Denver metro area, which is easily ten times more than the same for Barack. And this isn't even a region Romney seriously expects to win.

But whatever! The numbers are on your side. You've proved I used the term "order of magnitude" loosely, and maybe I'm even too ign'nt to know what it means. However, just out of the money we know about, you've also proved that Romney still has vastly more of it.
Wait. What was your point again?

So, in other words, the President has maintained the lead he's had for nearly a year?

Unless we assume (with little precedent) this VP debate pulled Obama's fat out of the fire, extend the trend which began with the first debate just five more days and Obama hasn't maintained shit. But we'll see by Tuesday. Again I'm hoping you're right and I'm wrong here.

I love how only three sentences after this, you accuse me of wishful thinking.
I fail to see how identifying an opportunity missed is wishful thinking. My grandmother could have leveraged the OWS momentum, and she's dead and stupid.

It's kind of a shame there is a personal element involved
That's politics!
posted by clarknova at 11:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

To win an election in this country, you need WS. Leveraging OWS while still getting money from WS, that's not 12 dimension chess, that's like 12^12 dimension chess.
posted by rainy at 11:31 PM on October 11, 2012

To win an election in this country, you need WS.

FDR didn't.
posted by clarknova at 11:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

George Washington didn't.
posted by mazola at 11:35 PM on October 11, 2012

I wasn't going to go there.
posted by clarknova at 11:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Clarknova, unless Romney plans on buying 24 hours of ads in the final stretch, we're approaching a point where a 1.01 billion dollar campaign doesn't really have a material advantage over a 1 billion dollar campaign. And Romney isn't really spending the money very well; Obama still has more offices in the swing states. The air war is important, but Obama can hold his own there and has a more sophisticated ground game.

This is what has surprised me this election; the GOP didn't really even try to model Obama's 2008 operation. They're going to blow everything in the last two weeks; that might work in a cycle with a lot of undecideds, but this is clearly a turn-out election. Plus, nearly half the country will have voted by then. Ads are really good for driving up your opponents negatives, but even people who have given up on Obama don't hate him. Romney has been pretty open about his "more out of sorrow than anger" narrative. They've acknowledged demonizing Obama won't work well, but they are still spending their money that way.

extend the trend which began with the first debate just five more days and Obama hasn't maintained shit.

Dude, look at the Ohio numbers. Seriously, what's Romney's map now? He's a favorite in Florida by Virginia and Nevada are gone. He's got to be feeling good about the latest Colorado numbers but he's got to shake something else loose, and we've seen his strongest punch at this point. Eighteen months ago no one was thinking Obama would be a 2:1 favorite in mid-October.
posted by spaltavian at 11:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

George Washington didn't.

That's not too helpful. FDR dealt with a much worse economic situation by setting up the New Deal, even in spite of an attempted coup d'état by Wall Street. The historical relevance is clear. What is the point of this kind of response?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

What is the point of this kind of response?

If someone has to explain the joke it makes it much less funny.

Not that it was a real zinger or anything.
posted by clarknova at 12:01 AM on October 12, 2012

I think all the self-congratulatory stuff is really interesting. Honestly, I walked away from the debate thinking that Ryan absolutely took it, except for the fumble on specifics of the tax plan, and the fact that he looked intensely young for some inexplicable reason. The Democratic supporters here absolutely think Biden took it.

I found Biden's jolly-uncle performance completely undeserving of being one illness away from the White House. I thought Ryan's focus on the things that were important to independent voters was on message. I found him personable, earnest, and idealistic.

Sure, as a political operative myself, I also thought every move in this was intensely calculated both on Ryan's side and Biden's, but even given that, I thought that Ryan scored well on the "who looks more like a vice presidential candidate" card, which tends to also appeal to undecided voters.

I did find Biden rude, just as I found both Romney and Obama rude last week. I would love to see a return to civil debate in this country, and I think Biden absolutely did not deliver it. Even if Biden was cursing like a fictionalized American grandpa telling kids to get off his lawn with their malarkey and their "stuff."

I also appreciated that Ryan praised women twice in the debate, even when he didn't agree with them. He acknowledged that the moderator had been to Afghanistan more than himself or Biden, and he praised some of Hilary Clinton's work. He was genial and collegial, and I appreciated that deeply.

But there's a lack of awareness of that here. Paul Ryan had some amazing moments in the debates too - like his comment that Biden of all people should know that gaffes are not necessarily reflective of true statements about character and beliefs. I am honestly shocked that that was not even mentioned as it was happening, but it was a "holy shit' moment indeed.
posted by corb at 12:15 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Dude, look at the Ohio numbers. Seriously, what's Romney's map now?

I no longer have any kind of faith in maps or statistical breakdowns or any of the rest of the horse race point spread bullshit we use to rationally estimate electoral outcomes now. Bush stole it twice, in spite of all the wonky hoohaw that cried "unpossible!" Romney just stole the Iowa caucus from Paul*, thus securing himself the nomination via pump priming.

The Elephants have been rigging up the system in their favor for the last twelve years. The Donkeys flapped their ears over their eyes and generally ignored it when they held power. They don't have the well-oiled, Koch-fueld strategy machine the republicans do, and generally behave like a stoned prep school student council. If you really think the Republicans plan to let things play out naturally, and the Dems are going to successfully resist on the strength of their tarnished principles.. well. I wish I could have some of what you're smoking. It's probably quite soothing.


*And no I don't support that cranky old fascist.
posted by clarknova at 12:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

VP Debate 2012: The Real Paul Ryan Is Bad for America
posted by homunculus at 12:03 AM on October 12 [+] You hit your favorite limit for the day. [!]

Arrgghhhh !! Actually I'm amazed they lasted this long. Great fun in here. Thanks for a great night everyone. (and thanks homunculus for posting that Esquire piece. It was indeed well worth reading.)

... I always only knew Charlie Pierce as a kinda funny guy on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, but he's been knocking it out of the park this election season.

Thanks Phire for pointing this out. I'm not familiar with him. Looking forward to reading more.
posted by marsha56 at 12:20 AM on October 12, 2012

corb: "like his comment that Biden of all people should know that gaffes are not necessarily reflective of true statements about character and beliefs."

Except that Biden quickly neutralized it with "I always say what I mean" or something to that effect.
posted by wierdo at 12:33 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

corb: "I think all the self-congratulatory stuff is really interesting. Honestly, I walked away from the debate thinking that Ryan absolutely took it ..."

This is my surprised face!
posted by barnacles at 12:45 AM on October 12, 2012 [28 favorites]

Except that Biden quickly neutralized it with "I always say what I mean" or something to that effect.

Yeah, but that's not really neutralized to anyone who knows the shit Biden's actually said - I'd find that more scary, not less.

The other thing to remember too is that Biden is showing his age, and is a bit out of touch on cultural touchstones. He's talking about Jack Kennedy as his zinger, a reference from a debate when many of the new voters he needs to engage weren't even born yet. (And how is Dukakis doing these days, anyway?) He's talking about Bork, who again, is from a fight they were too young to know. He's referencing things that only either very aware people know about, or people over a certain age and culture - an age and culture overwhelmingly voting for Romney - are involved in. He is not appealing to independents and young voters with this stuff.
posted by corb at 12:49 AM on October 12, 2012

corb: "He's talking about Jack Kennedy as his zinger, a reference from a debate when many of the new voters he needs to engage weren't even born yet."

I think the audience's (and Ryan's) laughter got the point across pretty well.
posted by wierdo at 12:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Underlined the point, even.
posted by wierdo at 12:51 AM on October 12, 2012

corb : He's referencing things that only either very aware people know about,

Yeah, there's nothing worse than a politician who won't pander :(
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 12:53 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

This is my surprised face!

People with different political leanings see things differently? No surprised faces needed. Let's please not start with this sort of commentary; there are plenty of issues to discuss without getting personal.
posted by taz at 12:53 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

It seems like perceptions of who won the debate really depend on who you already support - or at least it was like that for me. Listening to Ryan try and defend his positions was peppered with 'where the hell did that come from?' comments on his argumentation.

That said, I think a less critical viewing of the debates might have yielded the judgement that Ryan won. So eloquent! (But arguing in circles.)

So ready with answers! (Well, non-answers mostly.)

So earnest and VP-looking! (My friend and I found it weird that he was so Bambi-eyed and 'I AM EARNEST PEOPLE LOOK INTO MY CRAZILY-BLUE EYES.'*)

*Jokes aside though, it's probably better to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he isn't doing it to accomplish emotional appeal.
posted by undue influence at 12:57 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

taz: "This is my surprised face!

People with different political leanings see things differently? No surprised faces needed. Let's please not start with this sort of commentary; there are plenty of issues to discuss without getting personal"

Sorry, corb. Sorry, taz. :(
posted by barnacles at 12:59 AM on October 12, 2012

He's talking about Bork, who again, is from a fight they were too young to know.

Biden seemed to be focusing his words so as to communicate to people 35 and over. I'm 37, know who Bork is, and I know exactly what Biden is communicating by referencing this arch-conservative in the context of healthcare rights.

He is not appealing to independents and young voters with this stuff.

Young voters, maybe, but I'm sure a good number of independents in my age range and above would understand the import of the Bork reference, whatever their personal impression.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:59 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

Yeah, there's nothing worse than a politician who won't pander :(

Oh, let's face it, they all pander. But I'm not talking about who is the more morally upstanding candidate, I'm specifically talking about their debate performance and how it comes off. Ryan hit all of the points that have been resonating with undecided and likely voters lately, and they believe are responsible for his poll bounce. It's a strategy that remains to be seen how well it will work, but it is a smart, focused move.

Ryan is setting things up for Romney in this debate - as a man of quiet charity too modest to talk about it himself, as a human who cares about people. He is setting Romney up as a bipartisan moderate. Because right now, where Romney lags is in his Uncanny Valley impression of a human.
Ryan repeatedly was on-message, which is something I cannot stress enough in speaking in any form of media. Yes, we, the people who are fiercely debating this in the wee hours of the morning, we are dissecting the tiny details. Most people are going to come off with impressions that they don't even fully understand, and one or two pieces. And Ryan, by repeating the same ones, has ensured that his at least are remembered.

(My friend and I found it weird that he was so Bambi-eyed and 'I AM EARNEST PEOPLE LOOK INTO MY CRAZILY-BLUE EYES.'*)

Did they cut to the cameras of them solo on the screen like that for anyone else? I found it weird too, they did it for Biden once or twice as well. It's almost like the TV was trying to say DRAMATIC MOMENT NOW PLEASE.

That said, I will confess that Paul Ryan's "my little bean" performance was the most vomit-inducing thing I heard all week.

Biden seemed to be focusing his words so as to communicate to people 35 and over. I'm 37, know who Bork is, and I know exactly what Biden is communicating by referencing this arch-conservative in the context of healthcare rights.

Oh yes, absolutely, I completely agree with you one hundred percent. I'm just curious why - I thought Romney had that portion of the electorate mainly locked up with the exception of strong Democrats? Are there new polls out? If it was a strategy, what was the purpose.
posted by corb at 1:02 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I did find Biden rude, just as I found both Romney and Obama rude last week. I would love to see a return to civil debate in this country

Debaters are instructed to hang onto the mic for dear life, and this strategy isn't going to get less rude any time soon. The best solution to this is technological: a chess-clock style timer that controls their respective microphone switches.

This is why Robert invented his Rules of Order. Egotists who think they deserve enormous power are never going to converse politely of their own accord. Force them to speak in turn, however, and they'll govern themselves accordingly.
posted by clarknova at 1:07 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Missed the debate live but just watched the replay on YouTube while reading the 1478 comments here (you wordy bastards, much love) and I am so gratified that the good fairy wot lives in the sky saw fit to grant my every wish. What an excellent evening.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 1:32 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Whew, just made it to the bottom of the thread. I didn't get to stream the debate live so I was very much glad to watch the replay with y'all running the commentary alongside!
posted by TwoWordReview at 2:33 AM on October 12, 2012

i dunno dudes andy hiller said that ryan won and that dude has the 'hiller instinct' and a bad toupee so he must know his politics stuff like whoa
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:58 AM on October 12, 2012

fnord
posted by laconic skeuomorph at 3:41 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm sorry, laconic skeuomorph, but I think you just made a blank post. Change your default character encoding to ASCII instead of Unicode and try again.
posted by clarknova at 3:47 AM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

Flunkie: I mean he's conservative and he's a dumbass, not that he's a dumbass because he's conservative, or (necessarily) that he's a conservative because he's a dumbass

In the words of the British philosopher and political scientist, John Stuart Mill:
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
posted by syzygy at 4:13 AM on October 12, 2012 [15 favorites]

like his comment that Biden of all people should know that gaffes are not necessarily reflective of true statements about character and beliefs.

This line of reasoning is effective only insofar as we agree on what constitutes a "gaffe." Romney's 47% comments strike me more as a moment of unvarnished truth than a gaffe.
posted by audi alteram partem at 4:15 AM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

Sure, as a political operative myself, I also thought every move in this was intensely calculated both on Ryan's side and Biden's

This is highly relevant: corb, does this mean you are paid for political work? I don't know how else to parse this statement?
posted by winna at 4:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [13 favorites]

Let's see, when Obama is reasonable and Romney is aggressive, they call it for Republicans.

And when Ryan is reasonable and Biden is aggressive, they call it for Republicans.

You might almost think the media wants to build market share on this topic or something.

Anyway, the only thing missing from the debate was a flustered Ryan shouting "San Dimas high school football rules!"
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:29 AM on October 12, 2012 [23 favorites]

I found Biden's jolly-uncle performance completely undeserving of being one illness away from the White House.

The thing is that Biden is a known quantity. You're simply not going to be able to make a credible case that a 60ish man who was in the Senate for 30 years and widely respected as a wonk and the foreign policy go-to-guy is "undeserving." He didn't have to prove himself to be one heartbeat away from the presidency in this debate because he already proved himself in 2008. He also doesn't have Cheney's problem of being seen as "the devious and dangerous puppet master."

Weirdly, Ryan held his own the best in the beginning with Libya. After that, it was all downhill for him. His problem is, essentially, that he has always played to friendly audiences, and this was the first time he got called to account for his plans and beliefs.

So much of Ryan's problems can be traced to the fact that he came of age in the early 1990s and never grew up-- it was an era where libertarianism was seen as the "intellectual" belief system, where privatizing everything was seen as the solution to every problem, and where even Democrats seems to be leaning in that direction (eg, NAFTA), and where everyone would have a "dynamic" job and be their own career entrepreneur. Plus, everyone wore baggy clothes. Ryan, having been in Congress almost this entire time, was isolated from the reality of this juvenile, trendy libertarianism and college-age affection for Ayn Rand that would have tempered most people's understanding with wisdom and experience. Who else would think that "unleashing the power of the free market" on the uninsurable and hireable (ie, Medicare recipients) would be a good idea?
posted by deanc at 4:39 AM on October 12, 2012 [26 favorites]

except for the fumble on specifics of the tax plan

It was not a fumble. There are no specifics. corb, if you vote for this clown because you think he was 'earnest' while lying to you, you deserve everything you get. I just feel sorry for the poor fuckers you're trying to drag down with you. I'm also disappointed that, as someone big on personal autonomy, your only takeaway from Ryan on reproductive rights was his sickening bean story, and not his evident intent to make abortion illegal.
posted by howfar at 4:42 AM on October 12, 2012 [19 favorites]

I found Biden's jolly-uncle performance completely undeserving of being one illness away from the White House.

He's been in that position for four years, and done a fine job.

Paul Ryan showed a staggering lack of knowledge and insight into foreign policy, and a willingness to put our country's troops in a dangerous position for no reason.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

I liked that the moderator started off with pushback about the whitehouse previously lying/misinforming about the embassy attacks, and I like how she just put it right out there that Romney and Ryan haven't been willing or able to lay out a single specific loophole they're planning to miraculously balance the budget with by closing, but the war section -- her 'area of expertise'? -- I found troublesome.

It's possible I missed this discussion above (I haven't noticed anyone talking about it here or elsewhere), but "Which would be worse: a war in Iran or Iran getting a nuclear bomb?" is such a slimy, defense-industry-beholden/-besotted question for a debate moderator to interject. And I wasn't sure if, in general, viewers would find Biden's reply persuasive enough, that you can always find people in the military who will say they need a higher budget, but that they're going to go ahead and trust the leadership when they say things can be streamlined. (I think the moderator even interjected/sneered[?] at that point that Biden, of course, means the military's civilian leadership, or the top brass who answer directly to the white house [civilian] chain of command.) I think maybe she was a bit shocked at neither of the candidates really buying into the War-With-Iran-Is-Imminent/Nuclear-Iran-Is-Imminent line that the media has been touting for a couple years now?
posted by nobody at 4:52 AM on October 12, 2012

People will believe/see/think what they want to be true. Also known as Haters Gonna Hate.

Here's hoping the contradictions & guessing games of the media (who want to keep it close to keep eyeballs) might indicate it's dealing with an overdue disruption/correction, just as the GOP has been for the last 4 or 6 years.
posted by yoga at 5:01 AM on October 12, 2012

I just realized there might be a more generous interpretation of the moderator's handling of the war topics: it's possible she knows through her reporting that the military in general (and probably the whitehouse leadership as well) is way more bellicose/alarmist toward/about Iran than they were having Biden portray. And so maybe what I saw as inappropriate war-mongering on her part was actually meant to be pushback against Biden misrepresenting the whitehouse's and/or military's stance?
posted by nobody at 5:04 AM on October 12, 2012

Well, well, well.
posted by spitbull at 5:24 AM on October 12, 2012

Has anyone ever used the word "resonate," or any of its conjugates, in a political sense who hasn't been at least 50% crap?
posted by JHarris at 5:25 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

And so maybe what I saw as inappropriate war-mongering on her part was actually meant to be pushback against Biden misrepresenting the whitehouse's and/or military's stance?

Very astute. She only sounds like a jingo-parroting halfwit. Beneath that facade of slavish cue-card recitation and bad plastic surgery decisions lives a prodigy of the fourth estate; a subtle, inexhaustible advocate for peace in our time.
posted by clarknova at 5:32 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Man, next debate Tuesday. I'm a little worried I'm gonna have a stroke or something between now and voting day.
posted by angrycat at 5:33 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

It's only fair: she'd already insulted mine.
posted by clarknova at 5:39 AM on October 12, 2012

Ryan hit all of the points that have been resonating with undecided and likely voters lately

Are we talking about another Paul Ryan or other undecided voters? If polls are any indication, what resonates with undecided voters was Mitt Romney's claims that his tax cuts wouldn't caost anything, that he would leave Obamacare mostly intact, and that he had no interest in passing legislation to restrict abortion. That is what resonates with people.

In short, it was the

"smooth evasion that says, 'of course we beleive these things. we believe in social security. we believe in work for the unemployed. we believe in saving homes. Cross our hearts and hope to die. We believe in all these things. But we do not like the way the present administration is doing that. Just turn them over to us. We will do ALL of them. We will do MORE of them. We will do them BETTER. And most important of all, the doing of them will not cost anybody anything.'" - FDR, 1936

What Paul Ryan actually has advocated for doesn't resonate with people at all! It wasn't until Mitt Romney completely denied everything he and Ryan have been campaigning on that things turned around for them polls for them. (Why do libertarians always think that people will flock to their ideas once they get a public hearing? Ron Paul didn't win a single primary!)
posted by deanc at 5:43 AM on October 12, 2012 [12 favorites]

Sure, as a political operative myself, I also thought every move in this was intensely calculated both on Ryan's side and Biden's

This is highly relevant: corb, does this mean you are paid for political work? I don't know how else to parse this statement?
posted by winna at 7:18 AM on October 12


this needs to be discussed over at MetaTalk. in my 12 years as a political blogger who has mingled with sundry political operatives, Republicans have a very well oiled "social media" machine that includes paying people to become commenters on sites like MetaFilter and Reddit. they understand the value of these sites from the SEO perspective --and that's why you find curiously unabated "site members" who will repeat over and over again the party's talking points.

i have no idea who is corb or any of the GOP-friendly people commenting on this site. i have no idea if corb is being paid specifically to post comments on this site. but it should clarify why people like corb will never be persuaded. as political operatives, they are paid --directly or indirectly-- to create a presence for the party in "GOP hostile" sites like Metafilter.

where i have seen clearly how PR/marketing operatives handled/outed over at Reddit has been in the fashion subreddits. moderators have created a whole process for these people to be identified so redditors understand they're representing brands. looks like they're having a bit of success with that.
posted by liza at 5:45 AM on October 12, 2012 [24 favorites]

It's only fair: she'd already insulted mine.

Your looks? Really? Harsh. And here I was thinking you were just descending to misogyny.
posted by howfar at 5:45 AM on October 12, 2012 [11 favorites]

Sure, as a political operative myself,

Has anyone else noticed that suddenly corb is a highly informed operator, but only a few months ago was seriously worried about a Communist revolution?

He's talking about Bork, who again, is from a fight they were too young to know.

The young people who are actual watching the debate know who Bork is, and I have no idea why you think Joe Biden's primary target should be young people when he's on a ticket with Barack Obama. That bloc is already covered.
posted by spaltavian at 5:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

Debaters are instructed to hang onto the mic for dear life, and this strategy isn't going to get less rude any time soon. The best solution to this is technological: a chess-clock style timer that controls their respective microphone switches.

In the most recent Brown/Warren debate the moderator assigned extra clock time to keep things even. He'd let them end the thought, then say "time's up, that was seven seconds over, so you get 37 seconds to respond." I think at one point he even awarded extra time because audience noise interrupted for a few seconds. It was very effective: they mostly got to finish their points, but they didn't win any subtle advantage by going over time. And I think they ended up being pretty disciplined about hitting the time limit most of the time.

Also -- if you enjoyed angry Joe Biden -- the Brown/Warren debate is just great watching in general. From my partisan eyes, Brown was doing a paper-thin folksy act and throwing personal attacks, while Warren just methodically and sincerely and effectively targeted his policy positions and values. It was pretty satisfying. I think she's found a way to own the intellectual thing.
posted by jhc at 5:52 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

i have no idea who is corb or any of the GOP-friendly people commenting on this site. i have no idea if corb is being paid specifically to post comments on this site.

I think the paid operatives are the ones who post, "I am an undecided, middle of the road guy who almost always voted for Democrats, but ever since the debate, I'm outraged about that Obama apologizes for America, and I believe Mitt Romney has the can-do attitude to let America be America again!"

corb has always been up front about working at the intersection of grassroots public advocacy and the non-profit-industrial-complex-type jobs in NYC. There's nothing secret about that. And because that working environment is pretty unfriendly to her brand of right-wing propertarianism, MeFi is her outlet. What's impressive about MeFi is how we don't seem to attract talking-point-bots of the sort you see in the comments sections of some blogs and newspaper websites.
posted by deanc at 5:54 AM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

I think there's some stuff here that should be going to Metatalk, guys.
posted by howfar at 5:54 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Mod note: Things that should be discussed in Metatalk should be discussed in Metatalk; no more of that here, please. Seriously.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:54 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Morning after thoughts:

Biden was great in a lot of ways, but the smirking and interrupting should have been toned down by about 30%. I understand why he did and admire his passion for wanting to call out bullshit, but those antics do wind up detracting from his overall excellent points. But damn it was nice to see GOP talking points called out.

Ryan was outclassed by Biden, but he managed to keep a generally cool head and fire off a fire zingers of his own, even if they fell flat. Ryan also wins dubious points for being able to lie with a straight face, while looking into the camera. That man is very good and while he got a spanking it would be short sighted to write him off as hack or that his career is over. He appeals to a certain segment of the population and the fact that his math doesn't add up does not matter to them. He looks and acts a certain part and that's what counts.

Martha Raddatz was a great moderator, one of the best I recall seeing in my lifetime of watching US Presidential related debates. She dug right into major issues, rightfully badgered both candidates when they were full of crap and herded them from one topic to another. Damn fine example that a woman can be just as tough and hard hitting as any man or even two at the same time. It's the person, not the sex or gender, that matters and Raddazt shone like a highly professional last night.

All that said, I'm still calling the election for Obama and for that to be definitively called by 11pm EST on election night. I don't feel confident yet predicting what the Electoral College count and popular vote will be, but obviously things are tightening.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:56 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Very astute. She only sounds like a jingo-parroting halfwit. Beneath that facade of slavish cue-card recitation and bad plastic surgery decisions lives a prodigy of the fourth estate; a subtle, inexhaustible advocate for peace in our time.

Mm, yes, casual misogyny is just what this thread needed, well done indeed.
posted by elizardbits at 5:59 AM on October 12, 2012 [22 favorites]

on the topic of Martha Raddatz, last night's moderator: SHE KNOCKED IT OUT OF THE PARK.

i actually had no problems whatsoever on how she pitched the foreign policy questions. she was hard hitting --relentless even-- in pushing the "war against Iran" narrative IN EXACTLY THE WAY SHE SHOULD HAVE. neocons are pushing for war and when she asked, what would be worse, another war of Iran getting the bomb, she --and we the audience-- got EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED TO HEAR: two distinctly different stances on the use of the US military in the Middle East.

Biden's reply was basically to say: we use the might when we need to but we're getting personnel the hell out of there because the US doesnt need another war.

Ryan's response? Israel is weak, we need to bomb the shit out of Iran AND OH BY THE WAY LET'S START WITH SYRIA FIRST.

if you weren't paying attention, Ryan was completely knocked off his socks by Martha's hawkish demeanor. she wouldn't take shit from him. in many instances she kept repeating "that's not specific enough". and she wasn't softballing Biden either, but it was clear she pushed Ryan into a corner. he came out looking like a little war drummer boy for the neo-cons while Biden was like, "fuck that! we don't need another war".

Raddatz blew me away last night and that was the overall consensus among political bloggers & pundits last night on twitter. go see my stream so you get a flavor of how excited people were.
posted by liza at 5:59 AM on October 12, 2012 [16 favorites]

Awkward. But I think Biden is headed for well-deserved retirement.

I am kind of giddily excited to read his post-retirement memoir opus.

And if Hillary wants to run in 2016, I really don't think anyone's dumb enough to get in her way.
posted by Theta States at 6:01 AM on October 12, 2012

go see my stream so you get a flavor of how excited people were.

Phrasing!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:01 AM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

'Lexington' blog at The Economist calls debate a tie
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:05 AM on October 12, 2012

Mother Jones : Biden Smiles, Laughs, Mostly Kicks Ass

Weekly Standard: Biden Bombed

something something psychological priming.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:08 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Mod note: Some comments deleted. Metatalk for discussing questions related to a specific user; this thread is for discussion of the debate.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:09 AM on October 12, 2012

Weekly Standard: Tonight's Winner

paraphrase: understanding things is hard and confusing, lets talk about baseball.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:13 AM on October 12, 2012

I thought that Ryan scored well on the "who looks more like a vice presidential candidate" card

If your idea of a VP is someone who looks like Kevin Spacey in American Beauty, then maybe he does.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

MeFi's own mightygodking: VP debate bloggin'
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:19 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

on the topic of Martha Raddatz, last night's moderator: SHE KNOCKED IT OUT OF THE PARK.

She was really, really good. I'd love to see her do a presidential debate, preferably taking the spot reserved for "town hall" style debates so that we can relegate those to the dust bin of history where they belong.

She was pushed the candidates, asked specific questions, and didn't let them push her around the way Jim Lehrer did. On the one hand, I sort of wish we didn't talk about bombing Iran in a "if don't talk about it maybe it won't happen" way, but if you're going to do it, do it like that.

I've realized that I kind of hate debates* because they never live up to the promise of forcing people to defend and explain their positions and are easily sidetracked by soundbites, but last night was about as good as debate as I've seen and Raddatz gets a lot of the credit for that.

*Honestly, I'd kind of like the candidates to give prepared presentations to a council of interlocutors who were experts in a couple fields, like an appellate argument, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Weekly Standard: Biden Bombed

When I was a kid I used to wonder "Why don't the Russians see through all that nonsense in Pravda?
posted by octobersurprise at 6:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [18 favorites]

Weekly Standard: Tonight's Winner

paraphrase: understanding things is hard and confusing, lets talk about baseball.

Eh, the Weekly Standard's right. It was a good debate that I might remember whenever I think about debates, but the ending of the Nats game was better. I understand that not everyone cares about the emotional arc of Werth's time in Washington as much as I do, but it was a really good game.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:26 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Obama needs to run a giant billboard ad campaign based on these words from Biden: Their ideas are old. Their ideas are bad.

Republicans will be just as eager to accuse Biden of ageism as they were to accuse Cleland of treason.
posted by clarknova at 6:29 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

What Paul Ryan actually has advocated for doesn't resonate with people at all! It wasn't until Mitt Romney completely denied everything he and Ryan have been campaigning on that things turned around for them polls for them. (Why do libertarians always think that people will flock to their ideas once they get a public hearing? Ron Paul didn't win a single primary!)

I woke up smiling this morning,, but thinking about this gave me a frowny face again. Actually more like a pissed-off face.

What enrages me is Romney/Ryan are far, far Right-- so far to the Right that anyone with half a brain who isn't in the top 1% should be running away in alarm. Yet now, in order to get elected, Romney/Ryan are Obamafying themselves. Jesus. Man up. Run on your own goddamn platforms.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:30 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

At the Vice Presidential debate Ryan told 24 myths in 40 minutes

I was going to highlight my favorite but it is too hard to choose.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:35 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

From Twitter: According to NBC's focus group of undecided Virginia voters, VP Biden won the #VPDebate by a 5-to-1 margin.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:40 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

well there's the thing that baseball is a game played by very-paid people, and then there's the election which might be a little bit more important.
posted by angrycat at 6:41 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

CBS "snap poll" 50-39-19 (Biden-Ryan-Tie)

So far CNN seems to be the odd man out, so to speak
posted by edgeways at 6:49 AM on October 12, 2012

What They Won't Talk About: Dept. Of Foreign Policy

1. Is there an end game for the global war on terror?
2. Do today's foreign policy challenges mean that it's time to retire the Constitution?
3. What do we want from the Middle East?
4. What is your plan to right-size our military and what about downsizing the global mission?
5. Since no one outside our borders buys American exceptionalism anymore, what's next? What is America's point these days?
6. Bonus Question: To each of the questions above add this: How do you realistically plan to pay for it?

posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:49 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I also appreciated that Ryan praised women twice in the debate, even when he didn't agree with them. He acknowledged that the moderator had been to Afghanistan more than himself or Biden, and he praised some of Hilary Clinton's work. He was genial and collegial, and I appreciated that deeply.

Kind words and geniality are utterly meaningless when your beliefs and policies are so strongly anti-women. As Mitt Romney proved last week, people can say whatever the hell they want. It signifies nothing.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [13 favorites]

Ouch 5 to 1 among undecided voters is brutal.

Considering Romney needs those guys to break like 3 to 1 in his favor this is probably going to head off any mittmentum in the battleground states.

The truth of the matter is that unless you live in about 1 of 7 states you just don't mean anything at this point your state is a foregone conclusion. And in those states there just isn't a ton of wiggle room for Romney to redefine himself as a centrist candidate.

If Biden played well with undecided voters in Virginia I think you can safely assume that he played well in Ohio. I think he'll also help move the needle in Florida and Wisconsin.
posted by vuron at 6:51 AM on October 12, 2012

Personally I was more than a little squicked out by Ryan's car crash schtick. Was that intentional to try and throw Biden or something.
posted by edgeways at 6:52 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

5 point plan.

1. Take car, go to Mum's.
2. Kill Phil.
3. Grab Liz.
4. Go to the Winchester
5. Have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over.

How's that for a slice of fried gold?
posted by Happy Dave at 6:55 AM on October 12, 2012 [23 favorites]

CNN's polling was weighted heavily towards Republicans and the format of their poll lent itself towards a much older demographic. Even CNN admits that it's probably undercounting democratic support by a pretty big margin (maybe as much as 8%).

The truth of the matter is that the snap polling after debates is pretty sketchy in terms of it's concrete value. Some of the focus group testing is useful but even that can be biased simply because of small sample sizes.

The punditocracy seems to be settling into 2 narratives: either Biden won handily or that Biden was excessively combatative. Honestly either result is probably going to help Obama.
posted by vuron at 6:55 AM on October 12, 2012

So science is a bean-baby as glimpsed by some laypeople in a 7-week ultrasound? And who gets an ultrasound at 7 weeks? That's some fancy insurance he must have.
posted by gladly

People who used assisted reproductive technologies. I had my first ultrasound at 5 weeks. Then a second at 8 to confirm a heart beat. Fancy insurance, yes (or at least in a state which has manditory coverage or ART). And I guess he's all for "scientific conception" (IUI, IVF, clomid--take a pick), which is completely different than "religious-based" conception (sex = baby). Let's use science/medicine when it suits us, Mr. Ryan. (note: no clue if his child was conceived through ART but it is an explaination as to why he had such an early ultrasound).

But at least Mr. Ryan is sexy and he knows it (why would anyone take these god-awful photos?).

And I loved how the question was what would you say to a soldier who noted that all candidates do is tear each other down? Ryan's response? Tearing down the Administration/Obama. Way to go on answering the question, dumbass. You just proved a point, creepo.
posted by stormpooper at 7:00 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

neocons are pushing for war and when she asked, what would be worse, another war [or] Iran getting the bomb, she --and we the audience-- got EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED TO HEAR: two distinctly different stances on the use of the US military in the Middle East.

Hm, I guess I can sort of see it from that perspective, as a truly open question, but I definitely took it as a rhetorical one at the time. Wouldn't you say that within the general media/political discourse, the only allowable answer is that of course -- 100% -- a war in Iran is preferable to Iran getting a nuclear weapon? I don't see that as an actual difference between Democrats and Republicans. And so I took that question in particular as her way of saying -- in its most generous form -- "Get serious, Biden. All this talk of sanctions being enough is well and good, but we all know we're going to war" if not the even more inappropriate "Get serious, you peaceniks! You're going to get us all killed if you take war off the table! I can't believe this is the official whitehouse stance on this! Obviously you're not listening to your military experts!")

That said, maybe I'm off base on this, since both campaigns have apparently decided that it would be a bad move to suggest they might have to send troops into Iran. I kind of assumed the past half decade of Iran-is-really-scary drumbeating was enough to overwhelm the general electorate's sense of war fatigue.
posted by nobody at 7:02 AM on October 12, 2012

My favorite tweet of the night was watching ginger-haired Mexican Joshua Treviño (last seen lobbying for the Malaysian government) go full Maoist on "urban intellectuals."

"In the heartland you filthy intellectuals and do some hard labor that isn't lobbying or tweeting!"
posted by octobersurprise at 7:02 AM on October 12, 2012

Did anyone notice that weird point in the debate where no-one seemed to be able to pronounce "social security"? I was wondering if "So-sal security" was anything to do with So Solid Crew.
posted by howfar at 7:04 AM on October 12, 2012

And here I was thinking you were just descending to misogyny.

Mm, yes, casual misogyny is just what this thread needed, well done indeed.

I'm already a racist for using the name "Barrack" too many times. What have I got to lose by adding misogyny to my list of imagined crimes.

Nine times out of nine I find conservative ideologues either disingenuous or delusional, but they're spot on when they bellyache about the obnoxious predictability of knee-jerk liberals.
posted by clarknova at 7:04 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Do you have a plan?

Take the Golden AN
Put it in the Tan Van
Give it to Dan
Who takes it to Fran
That's the Plan
posted by ceribus peribus at 7:05 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Mod note: clarknova please do not make this thread about you and join the conversation in process. MetaTalk is an available remedy, continuing to namecall in this thread is not. If you are not trolling now is the time where it's on you to make that clear.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:07 AM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

well there's the thing that baseball is a game played by very-paid people, and then there's the election which might be a little bit more important.

Sure the election is more important, but the election isn't the debate. I already know who I'm going to vote for, and as entertaining as the debate was, there wasn't really anything in it that could change my mind. To that extent the debate was, for me personally, fairly unimportant. To be honest, I don't really get this thing that the educated classes do where they have to be caring deeply about politics all the time because they're SO IMPORTANT. I have my principles, which I reevalaute from time to time, and I can fairly easily see who is most likely to act or vote in line with my principles. Given that I get one vote (in the least important place in the country from a voting perspective), that seems like a reasonable amount of time to devote to democracy.

I'm already a racist for using the name "Barrack" too many times. What have I got to lose by adding misogyny to my list of imagined crimes.

You're not making a convincing case by misspelling the President's name.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:11 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

a reference from a debate when many of the new voters he needs to engage weren't even born yet... [Biden's] not appealing to independents and young voters with this stuff.

Is that what he needed to do here? Are there enough independents to make a difference? I thought that at this point it was all about firing up your base and getting better turnout, which Biden seems to have done very effectively if Metafilter and the Democratic chunk of my Facebook friends are any indication.
posted by straight at 7:11 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

When the Zombie apocalypse goes down, I so want Biden watching my back.
posted by WestChester22 at 7:21 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm already a racist for using the name "Barrack" too many times.

I didn't say you were racist. I was just asking a simple question about why Obama isn't getting the respect from you that Romney is. But I'm just a "kneejerk liberal", I suppose.
posted by inigo2 at 7:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Mitt Romney (September 9, 2012): “I hope to appoint justices for the Supreme Court that will follow the law and the constitution. And it would be my preference that they reverse Roe v. Wade”

Paul Ryan (October 11, 2012): “We don’t think that unelected judges should make this decision; that people through their elected representatives in reaching a consensus in society through the democratic process should make this determination.”

Um, which is it?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:27 AM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

Um, which is it?

What day is it?

(iow, who the hell knows?)
posted by edgeways at 7:35 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

That most awesome part of the debate was the first question:

I would like to begin with Libya. On a rather somber note, one month ago tonight, on the anniversary of 9/11, Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other brave Americans were killed in a terrorist attack in Benghazi. The State Department has now made clear, there were no protesters there.
RADDATZ: it was a pre-planned assault by heavily armed men. Wasn't this a massive intelligence failure, Vice President Biden? It's been so long since I've heard an straight forward and pointed question at a debate that it was like hearing a beautiful foreign language.

Biden never directly answered the question, though he did a pretty smooth redirect:

BIDEN: What is was, it was a tragedy, Martha. It -- Chris Stevens was one of our best. We lost three other brave Americans.

I can make absolutely two commitments to you and all the American people tonight. One, we will find and bring to justice the men who did this. And secondly, we will get to the bottom of it, and whatever -- wherever the facts lead us, wherever they lead us, we will make clear to the American public, because whatever mistakes were made will not be made again.

When you're looking at a president, Martha, it seems to me that you should take a look at his most important responsibility. That's caring for the national security of the country. And the best way to do that is take a look at how he's handled the issues of the day.

On Iraq, the president said he would end the war. Governor Romney said that was a tragic mistake, we should have left 30,000 -- he ended it. Governor Romney said that was a tragic mistake, we should have left 30,000 troops there.

With regard to Afghanistan, he said he will end the war in 2014. Governor Romney said we should not set a date, number one. And number two, with regard to 2014, it depends.

When it came to Osama bin Laden, the president the first day in office, I was sitting with him in the Oval Office, he called in the CIA and signed an order saying, "My highest priority is to get bin Laden."

Prior to the election, prior to the -- him being sworn in, Governor Romney was asked the question about how he would proceed. He said, "I wouldn't move heaven and earth to get bin Laden." He didn't understand it was more than about taking a murderer off the battlefield. It was about restoring America's heart and letting terrorists around the world know, if you do harm to America, we will track you to the gates of hell if need be.

And lastly, the president of the United States has -- has led with a steady hand and clear vision. Governor Romney, the opposite. The last thing we need now is another war.

Full transcript here.

posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:35 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

No Republican gets a pass from me when it comes to being "respectful" of women, given that their platform relegates women to secondary status. They have zero credibility on women's rights, as a party. There's nothing Ryan could have said in his current role that would change that, so why would it impress me?
posted by emjaybee at 7:38 AM on October 12, 2012 [55 favorites]

Yeah, that redirect - and others by Biden - were great. I mean, that's what the debates are *for*, to reiterate your platform in opposition to your opponents.
posted by undue influence at 7:40 AM on October 12, 2012

And make a distinction, which he did clearly. He almost never missed a chance to make a clear distinction.
posted by Miko at 7:43 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

emjaybee, I'd favorite your comment, but for the first time in my six years here I've hit my favorite limit.
posted by winna at 7:43 AM on October 12, 2012

The worst part of the debate was easily the total consensus on the need to reform Medicare/SS (moderator equally complicit), and Biden defending his record on raising the age with Reagan. The Grand Bargain cometh.
posted by mek at 7:46 AM on October 12, 2012

winna: "emjaybee, I'd favorite your comment, but for the first time in my six years here I've hit my favorite limit."

The worst part about the favourites limit is that it's a rolling 24-hour window. So it's not like I get new favourites because it's now Friday - I pretty much have to wait till 9 PM to get them back. sob.
posted by Phire at 7:48 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

*makes note not to post anything pithy until at least 9 pm*
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 7:52 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

You just know Ryan wants some kind of voucher favorites program too.
posted by The Whelk at 7:53 AM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

*makes note not to post anything pithy until at least 9 pm*

It's hard to promise, though, when they come so easily. ;-)
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:54 AM on October 12, 2012

I also appreciated that Ryan praised women twice in the debate, even when he didn't agree with them.

Yeah, that's roughly like saying that Martin Luther King was a heck of an orator even though a black person is only worth three-fifths of a white person.

When your policies amount to "women are property", that kind of praise isn't worth much.
posted by mhoye at 7:55 AM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

You just know Ryan wants some kind of voucher favorites program too.

But only for posters with user numbers over 40k!
posted by winna at 7:56 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

The worst part about the favourites limit is that it's a rolling 24-hour window. So it's not like I get new favourites because it's now Friday - I pretty much have to wait till 9 PM to get them back. sob.

See, if people had enough favourites to spend, they would spend these favourites and the economy would grow. We need a gratiosus stimulus.
posted by ersatz at 7:58 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Joe Biden Beat the Shit Out of the Brains of the Republican Party Tonight, and He Did It for You
posted by Benny Andajetz at 8:00 AM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

Mitt Romney gets gamechanging endorsement.
posted by ColdChef at 8:02 AM on October 12, 2012

Giggle snort
posted by The Whelk at 8:05 AM on October 12, 2012

Biden and Ryan meeting before the debate.
posted by ColdChef at 8:09 AM on October 12, 2012 [21 favorites]

Oh no Coldchef I'm sure Lindsey Lohan will definitely seal the deal for Romney. After all it's still 2004 right and she's still incredible popular?

I generally shy away from commenting on an actresses looks but she's looking really really bad these days. I don't know that you can keep doing the damage she's obviously doing to her body and not look like Keith Richards in a couple of years.
posted by vuron at 8:10 AM on October 12, 2012

Mitt Romney (September 9, 2012): “I hope to appoint justices for the Supreme Court that will follow the law and the constitution. And it would be my preference that they reverse Roe v. Wade”

Paul Ryan (October 11, 2012): “We don’t think that unelected judges should make this decision; that people through their elected representatives in reaching a consensus in society through the democratic process should make this determination.”

Um, which is it?

In Republican circles, this isn't seen as any sort of a contradiction; the idea is that you overturn Roe and thus the issue becomes a state-by-state issue decided by elected representatives. Thus, the judges overturn Roe, but they're not making the decision; they're freeing the elected representatives to make the decision. Now, there's good reason to believe that it wouldn't happen that way, that overturning Roe would not lead to a state-by-state laboratories of democracy approach to abortion, and there's good reasons to oppose that policy in any event, but there is a consistent position there.

The thing about Lohan's endorsement reminded me of this ESPN poll of athletes about political issues. It's interesting how quickly money overwhelms all other indicators of who you might vote for; NBA players are largely black union members, and yet they break 60% in favor of Romney.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:14 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden's letter to a young stutterer.
posted by ColdChef at 8:14 AM on October 12, 2012 [36 favorites]

Mitt Romney gets gamechanging endorsement.

Well, Mitt has the Jenna Jamison/Lindsay Lohan demographic licked, I guess.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:14 AM on October 12, 2012

Iggy Pop has so much for which to answer. They should do PSAs for stars saying 'you think you can do drugs and end up like Iggy? This is untrue. Iggy is a genetic mutant with an uncanny constitution. You will end up looking like Keith Richards.'
posted by winna at 8:14 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

The Whelk: "You just know Ryan wants some kind of voucher favorites program too."

I would be on board with a favourites cap-and-trade program. There are plenty who hoard their favourites like a dragon hoarding treasure, never giving any out lest their value be diluted. You know who you are. Call me.
posted by Phire at 8:17 AM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

Iggy is a genetic mutant with an uncanny constitution. You will end up looking like Keith Richards.'

To be honest they both resemble some of the less successful products of my teenage experiments with deep-frying.
posted by howfar at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's interesting how quickly money overwhelms all other indicators of who you might vote for

Agreed; what I don't get is the huge numbers of people who are two steps above the poverty line that are clearly voting against their interests.
posted by Mooski at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Well, Mitt has the Jenna Jamison/Lindsay Lohan demographic licked, I guess.

That is just inviting infection, if you ask me.
posted by grubi at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

See, that was Lohan's serious cry for help right there. i mean, clearly nobody answered her less HI I AM TROUBLED activity, so she doubled down.
posted by angrycat at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

It's interesting how quickly money overwhelms all other indicators of who you might vote for; NBA players are largely black union members, and yet they break 60% in favor of Romney.

"TO FIND OUT where jocks stand on the upcoming presidential election, social issues and who among them would make the best senator, our confidential team promised anonymity in exchange for truthiness. The secret ballots of our 62 voters? All yours."

So N=62? 62 total athletes across the NFL/NHL/NBA/MLB? Am I reading that right?
posted by cashman at 8:20 AM on October 12, 2012

Fox News has 5 headlines up tsk-tsk-ing Biden's aggressiveness....

I'm ashamed at the wishy-washy media that didn't report this as a steamroll by Biden, what debate were they watching?
posted by Theta States at 8:20 AM on October 12, 2012

Well, it was kind of rude for Joe to keep interrupting when Ryan was trying to lie.
posted by cortex at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [33 favorites]

what I don't get is the huge numbers of people who are two steps above the poverty line that are clearly voting against their interests.

“But don't forget that most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor.” -- John Dickinson, 1776
posted by grubi at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [11 favorites]

"TO FIND OUT where jocks stand on the upcoming presidential election, social issues and who among them would make the best senator, our confidential team promised anonymity in exchange for truthiness. The secret ballots of our 62 voters? All yours."

So N=62? 62 total athletes across the NFL/NHL/NBA/MLB? Am I reading that right?

I never said it was a good poll, but I'm willing to buy that it's close to right. In nothing else, it indicates that the NHL is full of center left (by American standards) Canadians and MLB is full of tea party crazies, which seem like safe bets.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2012

The real winner last night was Martha Raddatz. It's time to put Jim Lehrer out to pasture.
posted by Renoroc at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

I get why athletes especially elite athletes making millions would be generally pro-Republican during their playing careers. The vast bulk of their earning potential comes at the front side of their career and taxes can definitely do a number on those earnings. Having some like Romney say that he'll cut marginal tax rates by 20% has to be really tempting for these guys to support.

I can totally understand voting with your own self-interest. I can definitely understand the appeal of "screw you I've got mine" when you are at the top of the heap and you want to close the door behind you. It's selfish but understandable.

What I don't understand is when some people steadfastly support Republicans against their own self interest on the off chance that maybe they'll win the lottery or something and be one of the elite. Between that and the barely disguised racism and classism that helps keep the have nots divided from each other it can be really frustrating listening to public debate in this country.

But on the other hand I do think that the message that growing the economy from the top down is no longer fair and equitable is getting out to the electorate as a whole and that message is resonating. I just wish that Obama and company would do a better job of harnessing it.
posted by vuron at 8:27 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I never said it was a good poll, but I'm willing to buy that it's close to right.

I am not. I'm not sure 15 guys per sport is not enough to make any kind of notable claim. And that's assuming it was evenly distributed.
posted by cashman at 8:28 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

ColdChef, that letter from Biden to a young man struggling with stuttering was amazing!

Also, apparently Biden uses European-style (Date/Month/Year) dating (6.9.94 = 6 September 1994). SECRET EUROSOCIALISM?
posted by dhens at 8:30 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Agreed Renoroc, Raddatz definitely set the bar pretty high for the other two moderators to follow. I generally don't watch Crowley that much but the few times I've watched her she hasn't really impressed but hopefully she can avoid the Mitt steamroll.
posted by vuron at 8:30 AM on October 12, 2012

It's an interesting contrast, last week's liberal pundits' "OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING WE SUCK SO BAD AUUUUUUGH" vs. today's conservative media's "SHUT UP WE WON I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA" strategy. I kind of wonder if the right is onto something here.
posted by naoko at 8:30 AM on October 12, 2012

FOX News calling Biden a big bad meanie poo-head is essentially the same as saying Ryan doesn't have the chops to make it in the White House. I mean they're literally saying that Ryan got stomped by this dude. If a nigh-70-year-old Democrat who buys the press corps bagels is a threat to you, how can we believe you're qualified for the #2 spot of dealing with terrorist cells and totalitarian strongmen? Presumably, by challenging them to a marathon, I guess.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:32 AM on October 12, 2012 [86 favorites]

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, I would like to favorite your comment just again and again.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:33 AM on October 12, 2012

I generally don't watch Crowley that much but the few times I've watched her she hasn't really impressed but hopefully she can avoid the Mitt steamroll.

Every time I read about Crowley moderating, I have a split-second mini heart attack before remembering that, no, it's not Monica Crowley moderating a Presidential debate, we are not that far gone yet.

Yet.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:38 AM on October 12, 2012

It's an interesting contrast, last week's liberal pundits' "OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING WE SUCK SO BAD AUUUUUUGH" vs. today's conservative media's "SHUT UP WE WON I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA" strategy. I kind of wonder if the right is onto something here.

The problem is, we liberals have to actually live in reality, not just make it up as we go along.
posted by peacheater at 8:39 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

If a nigh-70-year-old Democrat who buys the press corps bagels is a threat to you, how can we believe you're qualified for the #2 spot of dealing with terrorist cells and totalitarian strongmen? Presumably, by challenging them to a marathon, I guess.

Foreign policy shall henceforth be decided by three-legged races and a beefcake pose-off.
posted by Superplin at 8:39 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Q: Can Ryan run faster than Iran's spinning centrifuges?
posted by shakespeherian at 8:40 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

It's an interesting contrast, last week's liberal pundits' "OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING WE SUCK SO BAD AUUUUUUGH" vs. today's conservative media's "SHUT UP WE WON I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA" strategy. I kind of wonder if the right is onto something here.

The problem is, once you start insisting on your own facts and your own reality, whether you're left or right wing becomes irrelevant, you're just no use anymore. The battle is precisely between reality-based discourse and fantasy-land ideological posturing, and giving up on the distinction would be the end of US political and historical relevance.
posted by howfar at 8:40 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

jason_steakums: "Every time I read about Crowley moderating, I have a split-second mini heart attack before remembering that, no, it's not"

Alistair Crowley? How amazing would that be, right?
posted by boo_radley at 8:45 AM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, except if you have a uterus."
posted by grubi at 8:46 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

According to MSNBC, the top Google searches for Ryan during the debates were:

"how old is"
"shirtless"
"workout"
posted by Room 641-A at 8:47 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

According to MSNBC, the top Google searches for Ryan during the debates were:

"how old is"
"shirtless"
"workout"

I though Biden looked great, too, but heavens.
posted by grubi at 8:48 AM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

In Republican circles, this isn't seen as any sort of a contradiction; the idea is that you overturn Roe and thus the issue becomes a state-by-state issue decided by elected representatives. Thus, the judges overturn Roe, but they're not making the decision; they're freeing the elected representatives to make the decision. [...] there is a consistent position there.

When you do what they want, you are an "elected representative" and democracy is a gift to the world. When you don't, you're part of the filthy government and some kind of communist.
posted by fleacircus at 8:49 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

Biden Gave Democrats The Show They Wanted - And Needed

The VP Debate's Biggest Missed Opportunity

For decades, American Catholics were split between an “abortion-first” camp that held every other issue to be a lower priority and a “whole-life” camp that argued for equal focus on issues of economic and social justice. Today that divide is even bigger, with many in the former camp downplaying or even disputing Church teaching on the economy and poverty, while some Catholics in the latter camp trumpet Catholic social teaching and say little about making abortion rare. When Mitt Romney selected Ryan—a card-carrying member of the “abortion-first” camp—as his running mate, an internal debate became very public.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:50 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

When you don't, you're part of the filthy government and some kind of communist.

I just have a hard time understanding that point of view. "Government is inherently evil... therefore, let us take control of it." "Government needs to stay out of our business... except when it comes to uteruses." Guh?
posted by grubi at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

The battle is precisely between reality-based discourse and fantasy-land ideological posturing, and giving up on the distinction would be the end of US political and historical relevance.

Siiiigh, I know, you're right. But their way is more fun. Plus, I really do worry about how media narratives shape reality - does a ubiquitous "Obama is weak and sleepy and totally screwed now" story, true or not, demotivate the base (probably not to the point of not voting, but to the point of donating or volunteering less)?
posted by naoko at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2012

For the way Biden worked the body: Don't call it a comeback!
posted by klangklangston at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2012

grubi: I just have a hard time understanding that point of view. "Government is inherently evil... therefore, let us take control of it."

That's what gets me about Ryan, Randroid that he is. His resume consists of driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile, working as a personal trainer and 14 years working for the government.

Isn't that exactly the kind of guy who would have been riding Ayn Rand's Train Of Doom in Atlas Shrugged?
posted by syzygy at 9:01 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Charles Pierce @Esquire: Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.


All those echo-chamber Right-Wing dim pickle pundits need to internalize that knowledge and then they will know the truth and wisdom behind Joe Biden's helpless laughing at Paul Ryan, because in a sane country, that would be the default reaction to ludicrous jackass like Paul Ryan. Instead he's paraded by the GOtP as a future star for their party, which to me is so much re-arranging of the deckchairs on you know what humongous "unsinkable" ocean liner.
posted by Skygazer at 9:01 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

tmot&t: As a CatholicFite, I was kind of pleased to see a Catholic-on-Catholic debate because precisely because it allowed the explication of that split.

Catholics are often treated as a unitary bloc who care only about abortion, but a lot of us haven't forgotten Dorothy Day or that old "whatever you did for the least of my bothers" line, or the story of the Good Samaritan*. Some of us, indeed, may not even think that our beliefs are anyone else's business, much less are anyone else's obligation to conform to. It's the 50th anniversary of Vatican II this week, an event that marked a big shift away from Big, Scary, Stick-Shaking authoritarianism towards social justice and humanitarianism -- or at least that's what I learned in Catholic school in the 80s.

People who proselytize mutely through charity & good works is my kind of religion, not the kind that shouts in your face and waves its fist. More Little Sisters of the Poor, and less picketing at Planned parenthood, you know?

Note: In case anyone forgot, the Good Samaritan story shows a despised minority caring generously for a member of the parable's audience, when more mainstream travelers -- who would be expected by the audience to help out -- pass by a robbery victim and don't want to get involved with the mess and expense and bother.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:07 AM on October 12, 2012 [32 favorites]

I felt NPR let me down again as covering the laughing as "oooooooo could turn off independents" as opposed to "hey, if one believes the other is lying with every other breath, perhaps that is a natural human reaction and by the way isn't that why everybody said Obama sucked, that he was so no-responsive to Romney's attack"

/rage
posted by angrycat at 9:07 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I just don't get the Romney is so handsome/Ryan is such a stud thing. Romney looks like a money-hungry TV evangelist or used car dealer and Ryan looks like a frat boy who never grew up. Maybe it's my uterus refusing to appreciate politicians who are out to get it. If Romney were to be elected, that would be the end of my political engagement because I COULD. NOT. BEAR. to look at him every day for the next four years.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 9:10 AM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

just don't get the Romney is so handsome/Ryan is such a stud thing. Romney looks like a money-hungry TV evangelist or used car dealer and Ryan looks like a frat boy who never grew up. Maybe it's my uterus refusing to appreciate politicians who are out to get it. If Romney were to be elected, that would be the end of my political engagement because I COULD. NOT. BEAR. to look at him every day for the next four years.

Totally, agree. I picture ball gags in their lives (not that there's anything wrong with it but these freaks totally would deny using one).

See?!
posted by stormpooper at 9:13 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

a lot of us haven't forgotten Dorothy Day or that old "whatever you did for the least of my bothers" line, or the story of the Good Samaritan

And, lest we forget, the Catonsville Nine. Catholics have a long tradition of activism for social justice. This is why the oversimplifying, reductive strategy the GOP is using - "hey, they hate abortion, too!" - is insulting and very shortsighted.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:17 AM on October 12, 2012 [11 favorites]

Previous link [stormpooper] slightly nsfw, just sayin.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:17 AM on October 12, 2012

Maybe it's my uterus refusing to appreciate politicians who are out to get it.

In a legitimate debate, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
posted by Drastic at 9:17 AM on October 12, 2012 [24 favorites]

Martha Raddatz has demonstrated her awesome before. Her ringtone interrupts a White House Press Conference, ala 2007.

Ridin' Dirty, no doubt.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 9:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

Coldchef: Biden's letter to a young stutterer.

Great. Just an all around great thing to do. I think there's little as important in this world from an educational POV as letting someone know they have right to their voice and have duty to use it no matter what might be in their way and not only that, but encourage empathy from one's struggles.

And how does one say they were moved something around here again?

Oh right. Darn, If I don't have something in my eye...
posted by Skygazer at 9:19 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Joe Biden's secret weapon: laughter

Biden’s laugh is utterly brutal because it takes Paul Ryan, the marathon-exaggerating, dumbbell-curling, wannabe manly man and does the absolute worst thing imaginable to a guy like that. It points at him and makes him a fool. It says, “Yeah, tell me another one, Backwards Baseball Cap.”

posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 9:20 AM on October 12, 2012 [18 favorites]

Catholic voter datapoint: my Con Law (and Labor Law) professor was the general counsel to the Catholic League. He takes his faith very seriously. He is no theological liberal. He is very seriously pro-life and all the rest.

However, he's also extremely passionate about labor representation and economic justice. He's voted Dem in every election since the 70s or so - even for the crummy candidates, like Kerry.

I certainly can't speak for him, but it seems safe to say that, no matter what his other differences may be with the Dem platform, there's something about what the Dems offer that outweighs the pro-life stance of the Republicans.

I can't imagine he's the only one, either.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:33 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Joe Biden's problem is he sometimes misspeaks. Paul Ryan's problem is that he doesn't.
posted by grubi at 9:36 AM on October 12, 2012

This debate reminded me of the 2004 VP debate. I remember being so excited for smooth-talking Edwards to take on grumpy old Cheney, but Edwards ended up getting totally thumped. Nice to be on the other side of that.
posted by Sreiny at 9:37 AM on October 12, 2012

A true pro-life position would also advocate the abolition of the death penalty.

Should Obama Call Romney A Liar?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:40 AM on October 12, 2012

the man of twists and turns: "Should Obama Call Romney A Liar?"

Whoa, hey, what is this, a State of the Union address?
posted by boo_radley at 9:41 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

And, lest we forget, the Catonsville Nine. Catholics have a long tradition of activism for social justice.

Just as an aside: The first full-length study of the Catonsville Nine has just been published. It's written by an old grad school buddy of mine, Shawn Francis Peters, who grew up in the area and whose high school baseball team was nicknamed... well, you can probably guess.
posted by scody at 9:41 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

The other link to the transcript of the debate was not working for me so here's another one in case someone was looking for it.

I had to dive in and relive the following, it was one of the best examples of Ryan attempting to deny previous stances, throwing a zinger, and trying to make his side look generous and human with Biden going nose to nose on each and every point, even to the point of saying "You want to raise the pot and bring up a random ass car crash sob-story to show how much you care about other humans? I Call, and Re-raise you a better one that actually happened to me, but without the me looking 'mighty white' part".

RYAN: Mitt Romney’s a car guy. They keep misquoting him, but let me tell you about the Mitt Romney I know. This is a guy who I was talking to a family in Northborough, Massachusetts the other day, Sheryl and Mark Nixon. Their kids were hit in a car crash, four of them. Two of them, Rob and Reed, were paralyzed. The Romneys didn’t know them. They went to the same church; they never met before. Mitt asked if he could come over on Christmas. He brought his boys, his wife, and gifts. Later on, he said, “I know you’re struggling, Mark. Don’t worry about their college. I’ll pay for it.”

This is a man who gave 30 percent of his income to charity, more than the two of us combined. Mitt Romney’s a good man. He cares about 100 percent of Americans in this country. And with respect to that quote, I think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don’t come out of your mouth the right way.

(LAUGHTER)

BIDEN: But I always say what I mean. And so does Romney.

...

BIDEN: The idea — if you heard that — that little soliloquy on 47 percent and you think he just made a mistake, then I think you’re — I — I think — I got a bridge to sell you.

Look, I don’t doubt his personal generosity. And I understand what it’s like. When I was a little younger than the congressman, my wife was in an accident, killed my daughter and my wife, and my two sons survived. I have sat in the homes of many people who’ve gone through what I get through, because the one thing you can give people solace is to know if they know you’ve been through it, that they can make it. So I don’t doubt his personal commitment to individuals. But you know what? I know he had no commitment to the automobile industry. He just — he said, let it go bankrupt, period. Let it drop out. All this talk — we saved a million jobs. Two hundred thousand people are working today.
And I’ve never met two guys who’re more down on America across the board. We’re told everything’s going bad.

...

Stop talking about how you care about people. Show me something. Show me a policy. Show me a policy where you take responsibility.

*Biden turns mic sideways, drops it, and looks at Ryan with disdain*
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:44 AM on October 12, 2012 [31 favorites]

SweetTeaAndABiscuit: "“Yeah, tell me another one, Backwards Baseball Cap.”"

Oh come on. He only wears it to the gym.
posted by boo_radley at 9:48 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

"Mitt Romney’s a car guy. They keep misquoting him, but let me tell you about the Mitt Romney I know. This is a guy who I was talking to a family in Northborough, Massachusetts the other day, Sheryl and Mark Nixon. Their kids were hit in a car crash, four of them. Two of them, Rob and Reed, were paralyzed."

That's a weird non sequitor. Mitt Romney's a car guy, so here's this car crash anecdote? "He's in favor of cars, like the one that paralyzed these boys. No human cost is too high to have cars!" It's just odd.
posted by klangklangston at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2012 [29 favorites]

So, normally I'd be all in the political news today but frankly reactions in the larger world that make me want to run and cry freak me so, so I'm working while BSG plays in the background so I don't get stressed out.

So -- what have we gained? There's the CNN and CBS polls, right? Anything else?

Also, I want to note that many of yous would have favorites from me but I maxed out earlier this morn.
posted by angrycat at 9:58 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Also, great call on a new debate thread. I'm afraid we'd break metafilter if we tried to append it to one of the existing ones.
posted by angrycat at 9:58 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

A true pro-life position would also advocate the abolition of the death penalty.

As would a true Catholic position.
posted by headnsouth at 10:00 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

klangklangston: It looked like flailing at the time, I honestly couldn't figure out where Ryan was taking it besides

MUST HUMANIZE ROMNEY
LAST TOPIC MATCHING REHEARSED STORY = GM BAILOUT
BEGIN STRAWMAN ROUTINE
QUEUE UP 47% RETURN FIRE LAUGHTER RAY

I still don't know where else he could have been taking it, but I admit my bias, which isn't so much against Republicans as much as politicians in general with Romney/Ryan and their bullshit slinging-hypocritical stances as flag bearers, may be making me take him less seriously than I should. So someone who did see Ryan's train of thought and how he could have thought that was going to work out for him can feel free to enlighten me.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:05 AM on October 12, 2012

headnsouth: "As would a true Catholic position."

To elaborate on what headnsouth said a bit more, it pretty much is. Having worked in a Catholic institution, they were uniformly -- uniformly -- anti-death penalty. That includes the ones who are more conservative than the Vatican, still not eating meat on Fridays, all women should be wearing wimples for modesty, gran-pères who wrote the checks and sat on the board.
posted by boo_radley at 10:09 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Joe Biden's secret weapon: laughter

It's the 3rd greatest gift!
posted by Theta States at 10:11 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

I watched the debate after reading the thread and I have to say, I was expecting a knockout that wasn't there. Biden was excellent, but Ryan was calm and said what he went there to say, and there's no devastating sound-bite to play and replay.

The CBC replay mostly showed just Biden or Ryan, and not so much of them in the same shot, so I didn't see all the Biden-reax stuff, and there was only one or two shots where you could see Ryan take a sip of water (and why are the waterglasses under the table?). The camera angle made it look like Bidenw as yelling at the moderator a lot. I wonder to what extent different networks mixed their own feed of the debate? It could make a really big difference in your perception of the debate.

Ideally, you'd see both of them all the time. I liked the sitting at a table format better than the podiums. The next Presidential debate is going to be such a different format that it'll be hard to compare to the first one - I'd expect Obama to do better in town-hall style anyway, but the fear is expectations will be so high for him that an adequately non-robotic Romney performance will make it a win for him.

The moderator was effective. I saw one quip which said Ryan must feel bad finishing third... I really hope in one of these debates the moderators put the issue on the table about the unprecedented obstruction of the Congress -- this would have been the right debate, but Ryan is allowed to keep on talking about bipartizanship.

Oh yeah, and I hate these faux personalizations that everyone does. This only started like 20 years ago. Before then it was policy discussion, now it's "I just met with Bill and Mary in Anytown, and they are struggling...." I don't find it in the slightest bit effective - humanize the issues some other way that at least have statistical significance.
posted by Rumple at 10:12 AM on October 12, 2012

there was only one or two shots where you could see Ryan take a sip of water

Yea, there must be some significant difference in coverage between what you saw and what MsEld and I watched. Ryan took way, way more than 2 sips of water that I saw. CSPAN ftw.

I hate these faux personalizations that everyone does.
"I just met with Bill and Mary in Anytown, and they are struggling...."

Right there with you. I can walk outside and get crazy pants, and not-crazy pants, stories from either side of the economic and social spectrum, all within 100 ft from my front door. This does not a debate/political argument make.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:16 AM on October 12, 2012

Ideally, you'd see both of them all the time.

I watched it on CSPAN and that is how it was shown.
posted by cashman at 10:22 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

That's a weird non sequitor. Mitt Romney's a car guy, so here's this car crash anecdote?

It was obvious whenever Ryan would shift into "canned response mode". He may as well have prefaced these anecdotes with "Say, America, that question spontaneously reminds me of a story I have in no way rehearsed for days...". There was an audio shift like when you're watching a documentary and the soundtrack shifts from field recording to narration back in the studio.

That said, having any kind of fatal car accident story on tap seems like a head-scratcher. He could have just as easily used the story without the car angle if he wanted to talk about Romney's actions in this story. Someone speculated that maybe he was trying to throw Joe off his game by bringing it up, but I don't think that's possible given how Biden has come to terms with relating this story. It's not like it's something that happened to him last week. I honestly think Ryan got going on this story, realized it didn't really make sense too late, and had to keep going.

Re-watching this bit it really seems like the worst possible timing for Ryan. Biden had worked up a pretty good head of steam on his previous answer and whereas if Ryan hadn't taken this turn Biden's intensity might have kept building, giving CNN et. al. an "angry old man Joe" narrative, instead Biden comes back very muted and balanced, saying how he's sure Romney is generous on a personal level.
posted by mikepop at 10:24 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

I saw Ryan take a sip of water at least 5 times and probably more. He finished one glass and started on a second one apparently as the glass was almost empty in one shot and was magically full in the next one.

It's fun to extrapolate that must have meant he was nervous and unsettled (I like to take it that way) but obviously it could just mean he had something salty for lunch.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 10:25 AM on October 12, 2012

That's a weird non sequitor. Mitt Romney's a car guy, so here's this car crash anecdote? "He's in favor of cars, like the one that paralyzed these boys. No human cost is too high to have cars!" It's just odd.

Yup, exactly what I thought. I didn't watch the debate, but I had to read that quote a few times to parse it (I was thinking maybe it was a typo but what the fuck is a "care guy"?) and I still can't make it work. I don't think that the way to win or even attempt to win a debate is by doing random word association.
posted by ob at 10:25 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

I saw Ryan take a sip of water at least 5 times and probably more. He finished one glass and started on a second one apparently as the glass was almost empty in one shot and was magically full in the next one.

This only got distracting for me when he pulled out his Stadium Buddy to relieve himself after drinking all that water.
posted by found missing at 10:31 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

My recording name is DJ Low-Information Voter
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:34 AM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

So does anyone know if all the US channels showed the same mix of camera angles or if on-the-fly editing could have (presumably unintentionally) influenced viewer's perceptions?
posted by Rumple at 10:36 AM on October 12, 2012

I watched it on CSPAN and that is how it was shown.

Randomly: were they cutting off a sliver of Biden's face in your feed? Ours was for a good bit of the debate and it wasn't cute but I admit it may be that my TV isn't interpreting the video feed properly or something, we don't watch cable all that often since we have streaming stuff setup so I'm hesitant to start raging against CSPAN for something that could very well be on my end.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:38 AM on October 12, 2012

I seriously think I could happily watch this for like an hour straight.
posted by Flunkie at 10:39 AM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

Randomly: were they cutting off a sliver of Biden's face in your feed?

Yes, that was occurring on CSPAN. Though it easily could have been Biden having been given cues on how to stay in frame and then forgetting or ignoring that.

CSPAN was also where you saw Ryan drinking water like a nervous office drone about to be fired.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:41 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Robert Reich: "Why Biden Won".
posted by ericb at 10:43 AM on October 12, 2012

Biden Performance Gives Obama Bump In Prediction Markets.
posted by ericb at 10:44 AM on October 12, 2012

NSF Sanity: Biden's hair on Ryan's head and Ryan's hair on Biden's head
posted by angrycat at 10:50 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Just got back from a lunchtime visit to the gym. They had Fox News on the TVs for some damned reason... I wasn't listening, but the captioning and chyrons ("MORE FALLOUT FOR BIDEN FROM LAST NIGHT'S DEBATE") made it clear that the analysis is different up on Bullshit Mountain.
posted by COBRA! at 10:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

But on the other hand I do think that the message that growing the economy from the top down is no longer fair and equitable is getting out to the electorate as a whole and that message is resonating.

I know! So much so that the Romney campaign co-opted "trickle-down" as a slur in the "trickle-down government" line they were trying out last week!

(I wonder if that might have made some on the right uncomfortable in the same way that "corporate welfare" is a bit complicated for how it sort of sounds like it buys into the idea of welfare being sneer-worthy. In any case, I bet "corporate welfare" was on their mind when they came up with the new "trickle-down" line. And I suspect it'll backfire if they stick with it.)
posted by nobody at 10:52 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

"Oh, I'm sorry, was I too harsh to Ryan?"
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:53 AM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

Video Recaps:

Paul Ryan Stays Hydrated.

Joe Biden's Incredible Reactions.

Ryan Changes Tone On Foreign Policy In VP Debate.

Paul Ryan Pressed For Details On Tax Plan During Debate.

Ryan Slams Obama 'Failure,' Yet Employs Same Gambit.

Joe Biden To Paul Ryan: 'Oh, Now You're Jack Kennedy'.

Joe Biden: 'With All Due Respect, That's A Bunch Of Malarkey'.

posted by ericb at 10:54 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Obama slide continues on 538 with bad news in Florida
posted by Perplexity at 10:56 AM on October 12, 2012

David Frum: Ryan Solid, But One Major Mistake.
posted by ericb at 10:56 AM on October 12, 2012

My recording name is DJ Low-Information Voter

I imagine your signature sounds would be a record scratch and a sad trombone.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:57 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Mitt Romney's Show Of Middle-Class Compassion Leaves Ohio Voters Unconvinced.
posted by ericb at 10:57 AM on October 12, 2012

20 sips and a final gulp! Man that boy wasn't just wet behind the ears, his whistle was pretty wet as well.

Right? Right?

*cricket chirps*

Sigh.
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:00 AM on October 12, 2012

As per 538, Obama's reelection chances down -21 points since Oct 4?
This is not -- right. Did we break democracy? Is there simply that much ignorance in our country? I have a pretty cynical view of humanity, but this still blows my mind.
posted by angrycat at 11:00 AM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

David Frum: Ryan Solid, But One Major Mistake.

In 2003 David Frum published a Bush biography entitled The Right Man.
Do you honestly give a shit about anything he might have to say?
posted by clarknova at 11:04 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I wouldn't be surprised if 538 is on the money. I think a lot of this has to do with expectations. People expected Obama to use Romney as a rhetorical surfboard during the first debate. That didn't happen - support takes a dip. A lot of people expected Ryan to end up in a pool of tears sucking his thumb by the end of this debate. That didn't happen - again, Obama/Biden support takes a dip.

However, let's bear in mind two things: First, Obama is still quite significantly ahead of Romney, most importantly in some key swing states. But not to rest on our laurels, second, Biden may have just lit a fire under a lot of progressive asses last night. "Independents" and undecideds might not be swayed, but the base will most likely got more fired up about this election, which I think should widen the already significant gap between the two candidates.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:11 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

As per 538, Obama's reelection chances down -21 points since Oct 4?

The first debate - up until then, independents and independent minded R's and D's were terrified Romney didn't know what he was doing, at all. So when he got on stage, and sounded like he knew what he was doing, and Obama just stood back and let him talk, it swapped their fears around. Now they're afraid Obama doesn't have any answers.

The Veep debate will stop the hemorrhaging. The next debate will decide the election. Obama needs to look like he's in control. He has to have a snappy comeback to every question, and he has to stump Romney once or twice. He needs to confront and correct Romney, but he can't do it defensively - he has to be on the attack, and make Romney react to him.

The debates matter this year, which is an interesting change.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:13 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

That didn't happen - again, Obama/Biden support takes a dip.

See, that just doesn't make sense to me. Someone's debate performance doesn't really have anything to do with their policies, their records or how they might govern.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:14 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I view David Frum as I do Ariana Huffington, narcissistic word-mingers who will say anything as long as they can stay in the spotlight. Regardless of whether such people claim to be liberal or conservative, I wouldn't count on or trust anything they say for a second and I would expect any of them to turn on you if the current political ideology isn't in your favor.
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 11:15 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

There was a series of photos on the CNN website last night and each candidate had several glasses on a shelf underneath the table. If I remember correctly by the end Paul had emptied 2 of his 3 and Biden's 2 glasses were seemingly untouched. Sort of a weird behind the scenes moment.

Paul Ryan was definitely thirsty. As a biologist I'm not surprised, his sympathetic nervous system was clearly in overdrive as the silver back gorilla took him to task.
posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 11:15 AM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

Sub-3 marathoners need to drink water like it's their job.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:17 AM on October 12, 2012

As per 538, Obama's reelection chances down -21 points since Oct 4?

The fundamentals are that he's an incumbent president in a weak economy. He's not going to blow out Romney. But he's not going to lose either.
posted by empath at 11:18 AM on October 12, 2012

See, that just doesn't make sense to me. Someone's debate performance doesn't really have anything to do with their policies, their records or how they might govern.

Back in the 60's Nixon lost primarily because he didn't shave well. Nobody every won a bet by underestimating the stupidity of the American electorate.
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 11:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

See, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Welcome to Amurrika. They will be your guide.
posted by Malice at 11:19 AM on October 12, 2012

Biden's smirks, Ryan's thirst: Web weighs in on VP debate.
posted by ericb at 11:21 AM on October 12, 2012

The Obama Campaign Calls Out Ryan's 'Troubling Pause' on Abortion.

The RNC Mocks Biden's Laugh.
posted by ericb at 11:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Whoa, y'all know that Biden showed his notes? That man has no fear, kudos yet again sir, thanks.
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:27 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

I encourage everyone to watch the two videos ericb listed. The difference in tone is stark and, to me at least, quite indicative of the differences of the tone of the two parties' political strategies in general. Interesting.
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:32 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

angrycat: "NSF Sanity: Biden's hair on Ryan's head and Ryan's hair on Biden's head"

Holy moly, Biden looks a lot like Reagan there.
posted by boo_radley at 11:38 AM on October 12, 2012

The fundamentals are that he's an incumbent president in a weak economy. He's not going to blow out Romney. But he's not going to lose either.

The TPM electoral scoreboard now has Obama under 270, with Florida flipping red. I think Obama still has a good chance with Ohio+Nevada but you're talking like it is in the bag, and the last week's decline in the poll numbers has been real and precipitous. Obama needs to bring it next week. Another performance like last week and he will lose unless some sort of miracle ground game still caries Ohio and one or two other close ones.
posted by Justinian at 11:45 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Eloquent Biden Brings Entire Audience to Tears
posted by COBRA! at 11:46 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

You know what always solves problems? Panicking.
posted by grubi at 11:47 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Democracy Now: Expanding the VP Debate: Third-Party Candidates Challenge Biden & Ryan on War, Economy, Healthcare
posted by homunculus at 11:49 AM on October 12, 2012

Saying Obama needs to bring it next week is not panicking, panicking would be Andrew Sullivan curling into the fetal position and sobbing.
posted by Justinian at 11:50 AM on October 12, 2012

Justinian: "panicking would be Andrew Sullivan curling into the fetal position and sobbing."

No, that's just his Friday. He's fine. It's fine.
posted by boo_radley at 11:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Say What: The 2012 vice-presidential debate is the Washington Post's interactive transcription of the Vice-Presidential debate, including sync to video and in-line fact check links.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:00 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Who won the vice presidential debate? Doesn’t matter.

As we have pointed out before, every day that elapses in which GOP challenger Mitt Romney does not gain ground on the incumbent is a net gain for the Democrats. (This is true for any challenger in any election.) In the past week, Romney has succeeded in that battle, effectively turning an unequivocal debate victory into a steady march in the polls. The instant polls and market movement suggest Biden succeeded in diverting that narrative.

Graphic of a 7 hour window before and after the debate - Obama is at 65% chance of winning, Romney at 35% change.

Sources: Betfair, Intrade, HuffPost's Pollster, and RealClearPolitics

posted by cashman at 12:13 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

the analysis is different up on Bullshit Mountain.

True. Dennis Praeger was on during my lunch break and he took Biden to task for "rudeness" (something a Republican like "Go f**k yourself" Cheney wouldn't know about), and said his prochoice stance didn't make sense because a fetus is a separate person and also, because it's hypocritical for Democrats to say a woman can do what she wants with her body when they pushed the ban on silicone breast implants. Which is certainly a unique take on the issue.

He finished up by saying that Romney and Ryan were deeply decent people whom he'd personally met, and that you knew that because the "skeleton digging" Democrats hadn't pulled anything up on them. I have to assume he means they haven't been caught in with prostitutes or something because there's been plenty of dirt otherwise.
posted by emjaybee at 12:28 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

‘Friday Night Lights’ Creator Tells Romney to Stop Using His Show’s Slogan.
posted by ericb at 12:30 PM on October 12, 2012 [12 favorites]

As we have pointed out before, every day that elapses in which GOP challenger Mitt Romney does not gain ground on the incumbent is a net gain for the Democrats. (This is true for any challenger in any election.) In the past week, Romney has succeeded in that battle, effectively turning an unequivocal debate victory into a steady march in the polls. The instant polls and market movement suggest Biden succeeded in diverting that narrative.

Yeah, this is a really good point. Stasis, in this case, is about as good a result as the Obama campaign can strive for (both because of the incumbent advantage and because Obama already has a pretty large lead.) The only large favorable movement they can hope for would come from huge gaffes on the Romney campaign's part, stuff like the 47% leak, and those aren't something that can be counted on.
posted by kagredon at 12:31 PM on October 12, 2012

Look away those of you with high blood pressure....Ryan Drew Blood Early, Then Cruised to Victory Over Unsteady, Flustered Biden No not the Onion, Forbes magazine.

Compare this to Congressman Ryan. Whether viewers agreed with him or not, he seemed bigger than the debate, and his slightly unhinged partner. Whatever the question, Ryan had a quick answer or answers, and replies came in a calm, measured tone.

Even worse for Biden, and one can imagine President Obama cringing from afar, as Ryan scored points, Biden took to laughing in an uncontrollable way. Well aware that he lacked a mind quick enough to respond to the myriad jabs of his more nimble competitor, Biden presumably felt his laughs and smirks would effectively communicate what he couldn’t in terms of words, and well-crafted arguments.

[bold mine]

The fuck? Nimble Ryan and Unhinged Biden? What the hell are they snorting over there at Forbes?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:35 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

The moderator was awesome. Martha Rad-Ass, amirite! Oh yeah! High five! hello?
posted by msalt at 12:36 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Partisan spin aside, you had a calm, emotionless, somewhat canned young guy with weird helmet hair and a bizzarely flattened nose against a colorful, older storyteller clearly having fun and landing his blows with heart and passion.

That's why the polls of undecided voters are breaking heavily for Biden.
posted by msalt at 12:40 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

VP Debate: Polls Find Mixed Results, Reason
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:40 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Forbes, yes, in that universe if you support Obama you suffer from battered wife's syndrome, apparently.
posted by angrycat at 12:41 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Secret Life of Gravy: "What the hell are they snorting over there at Forbes?"

The same "Greed! is Good!!" coke as always, I'd wagerr.
posted by notsnot at 12:41 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Even worse for Biden, and one can imagine President Obama cringing from afar, as Ryan scored points...

Apparently, when one writes for Forbes, one can imagine all kinds of kooky shit.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:45 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

It all makes sense now! Ryan is King Joffrey!
posted by ericb at 12:49 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Fox’s Mike Huckabee: Biden Came Across As An ‘Obnoxious Drunk’ During Debate.
posted by ericb at 12:51 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm living in a country where there are a number of voters who are basing their decision on who to vote for in the upcoming presidential election largely on whether Joe Biden laughed too much.

Its really time to end humanity and give the cockroaches a chance to evolve and do things right.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:52 PM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

Alas, the internet doesn't wanna tell me what the etymology of "malarkey" is, so I can't really get full mileage out of annoying people with it.

Wordsmith Ben Zimmer digs in.
posted by msalt at 12:55 PM on October 12, 2012

Soledad O’Brien Clashes With Erick Erickson Over Raddatz’s Moderating: ‘I Think You Have Lost Your Mind’.
posted by ericb at 12:56 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Fox’s Mike Huckabee: Biden Came Across As An ‘Obnoxious Drunk’ During Debate.

Oh ericb thanks for the laugh! It's good for my spirits AND my stomach muscles.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:59 PM on October 12, 2012

Charles P. Pierce Roe v. Ryan, even worse than you thought

If you believe that Thursday night's vice-presidential debate was a "draw" because Joe Biden was "rude" and "disrespectful" while Paul Ryan was obviously being disingenuous and uninformed, or that you've decided to go with "disingenuous" and "uninformed" because its manners made it more "likable," then you deserve the inadequate health-care voucher that's coming your way in 2014, as well as the letter from the Social Security Administration that your benefits will be down to 85 cents a month because International Embezzlement LLC went belly-up and took your retirement with it. Tough luck, kids. Them's the risks of an Opportunity Society.

ericb, not until there is a nine-minute montage of him getting slapped by Peter Dinklage.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:01 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

It seems that much of the GOP post-debate spin is aimed at swaying, not undecided voters, but rather the Saturday Night Live writing staff.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:02 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

ericb, not until there is a nine-minute montage of him getting slapped by Peter Dinklage.

were such a thing to exist, my entire being would immediately transform into an immense erection
posted by elizardbits at 1:05 PM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

I've never been charmed by Joe Biden like I was last night.

My first impression (once I got the livestream to stop buffering every two seconds), was that he was grinning like a jackass, but I was soon won over.

With as ugly as politics has gotten and has always been, it's rare to see someone that really seems to enjoy debating, especially in a close election with his job on the line.
posted by elr at 1:07 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

There is no world in which the right wing was not going to say Ryan won and Biden lost.

Here is what reactions to a Democrat loss looks like:
D's: I guess we lost. R's: They lost!

A tie:
D's: Hm it seemed even. R's: They lost!

A Republican loss:
D's: Oh, man we won! R's: They actually lost! Plus it doesn't matter! And let me tell you about some other things they lost!
posted by fleacircus at 1:09 PM on October 12, 2012 [27 favorites]

I've been thinking a lot since last night about what it would take for Republicans, worry warts on the left, and people who self-report themselves independent/undecided to flat out declare the Republican the loser in a Presidential or VP debate.

I don't think it's possible. I think even a Rick Perry-esque "Oops!" moment in a P or VP debate would result in "Yes, he had that misstep when asked about XYZ but he certainly scored some points of his own off of $Democrat's own slip later in the debate" type comments, perhaps supported by some pontification about how $Democrat's demeanor, tone, and posture really sent the wrong message to whatever made-up group the media had decided is vitally important in that election cycle (e.g., Nascar dads).

This is why I sort of envy Republicans. The vast majority always seem confident their guy is winning or one good effort away from winning; far too many Democrats seem to be convinced that their guy or woman is just one small mistake away from an utter disaster.

Not to mention they always get what they want. More wars, more people in prison, fewer social safety net programs, less power and respect for unions, rollbacks/elimination of affirmative action, etc. They get to call the President uppity, say breathtakingly horrible things about the President's wife, accuse him of lying, expose CIA assets, you name it, with no real repercussions. I wore a "Bush is a punk ass chump" t-shirt, and I had other liberals telling me how I'm being childish and seeing to it that no one will ever elect a Democrat ever again.

In short, the Republican Party's theme song should be "Damn It Feels Good to be a Gangsta".
posted by lord_wolf at 1:12 PM on October 12, 2012 [32 favorites]

“I think you’re a journalist, and journalists are going to give her cover,” Erickson countered.

The proper reply to Macon's third-rate Talmadge would've been, "Of course you're going to say that. You're paid to lick whichever one of the Congressman's balls is the sweatiest." But it'll never happen because the whole thing's such a sham to start with. CNN might as well cut out the middle-man, fire O'Brien, and let Erickson read the talking points.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:16 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

NSF Sanity: Biden's hair on Ryan's head and Ryan's hair on Biden's head

Holy shit, Ryan is Riff Raff.
posted by maudlin at 1:17 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

I wore a "Bush is a punk ass chump" t-shirt

I think I love you.
posted by cashman at 1:20 PM on October 12, 2012

I'm living in a country where there are a number of voters who are basing their decision on who to vote for in the upcoming presidential election largely on whether Joe Biden laughed too much.

Its really time to end humanity and give the cockroaches a chance to evolve and do things right.

QFT. As in, I've made my peace with the electorate in that we may well deserve the rough beast that is slouching towards Bethlehem.
posted by angrycat at 1:21 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

lord_wolf: That's my general view of the world as well, but look at the world right after the Democratic National Convention. You had Bill's speech, Clint's speech, the 47%, for a moment there event the Rs couldn't make it look like anything other than a disaster.

And then O has a bad night and now, if you're an obsessive 538-watcher like me, it looks fairly certain that we're heading for President Mitt. I don't see any way that you stop a plummet like the one we see over there. And that chart doesn't even have today's state poling in it, which is terrible for Dems as it eliminates O's purported swing state "firewall". I don't know. I'd love to be talked off the ledge here, but I don't see a way down that doesn't end on the concrete.
posted by The Bellman at 1:22 PM on October 12, 2012

Erick Erickson will never be half the viking his father Leif was.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:22 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Mother Jones: Working the refs: A Real-Time Field Test

Conservatives seem to have decided that they're going all-in on Biden's demeanor as their primary point of attack, and this provides us with an excellent field study of working the refs. As near as I can tell, the general reaction last night was that Biden was pretty good: loose, aggressive, passionate, and taking no guff from Ryan. At worst, maybe he overdid things a bit, but that's all.

The National Interest: Biden's Misleading Finesse

As for Biden, his smirking and chortling during Ryan’s expressions left him looking disrespectful toward his opponent and the political opposition in general. Bad timing, Mr. Vice President; the American people are tired of the deterioration in political civility that has poisoned the country’s politics in recent years. This display couldn’t have helped with undecided and independent voters.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:22 PM on October 12, 2012

The fuck? Nimble Ryan and Unhinged Biden? What the hell are they snorting over there at Forbes?

Powdered $100 dollar bills.
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 1:25 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm living in a country where there are a number of voters who are basing their decision on who to vote for in the upcoming presidential election largely on whether Joe Biden laughed too much.

Its really time to end humanity and give the cockroaches a chance to evolve and do things righ

You know apparently there's like a a billion people or something living in...I don't know exactly what they mean when they say this but, it's like they think there are like two billion people living in a place that is like outside the USA. I know it seems crazy but that's what a news guy said.
posted by howfar at 1:27 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

You know apparently there's like a a billion people or something living in...I don't know exactly what they mean when they say this but, it's like they think there are like two billion people living in a place that is like outside the USA. I know it seems crazy but that's what a news guy said.

Dude, comedy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:30 PM on October 12, 2012

Dude, comedy.

I know. Ain't I a stinka?
posted by howfar at 1:33 PM on October 12, 2012

...
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:36 PM on October 12, 2012

" Bad timing, Mr. Vice President; the American people are tired of the deterioration in political civility that has poisoned the country’s politics in recent years. "

A position I've stated on MetaFilter for, what, nigh on seven years now is that it's more rude, more incivil, to trot out bullshit than to call something bullshit. Trotting it out is profoundly disrespectful of the American people, and a veneer of civility that allows that rot to flourish is something that the bullshitters only appeal to after they've lied to your fucking face. Fuck 'em.
posted by klangklangston at 1:39 PM on October 12, 2012 [55 favorites]

I'm living in a country where there are a number of voters who are basing their decision on who to vote for in the upcoming presidential election largely on whether Joe Biden laughed too much.

And you're still giving them too much credit. They're only basing their decision on the laughter because that's what they've been told to base their decision on.
posted by ceribus peribus at 1:39 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Bad timing, Mr. Vice President; the American people are tired of the deterioration in political civility that has poisoned the country’s politics in recent years. This display couldn’t have helped with undecided and independent voters.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that anyone still undecided at this point is likely not going to see Biden suplex Ryan and think to themselves, "Well, I essentially see Obama and Romney as nearly identical, so I had no idea who to vote for - until that smug prick Biden had the nerve to smirk and chortle at Paul Ryan! This clinches it for me!"

As for independents, well ... maybe I'm being unfair, but most self-identified "independents" I've met are either conservative (mostly) or liberal, and vote accordingly. A lot of them just enjoy appearing to be Political Taoist Zen Masters who float above the political spectrum and weigh the issues with Solomonesque objectivity.

Undecideds and independents are already going to vote their way. How Biden "behaved" is just punditized straw-grasping.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:44 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

I don't know. I'd love to be talked off the ledge here, but I don't see a way down that doesn't end on the concrete.

I know how you feel. I'm very surprised at how this has shaken out. I've been reminding myself that there are still two debates left, and that, apparently, Obama's national decline is due to losing support in solidly blue states, and, apparently, early voting is breaking towards Obama in some states like Ohio. But I don't know...I should give 538 a rest this weekend.
posted by girlmightlive at 1:44 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Two days after the next presidential debate, President Obama will appear on the Daily Show. I really hope this means his next debate performance won't result in him getting called over to camera #3.
posted by gladly at 1:44 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Bad timing, Mr. Vice President; the American people are tired of the deterioration in political civility that has poisoned the country’s politics in recent years.

That's why Romney's numbers plummeted after the last debate where he bullied the moderator. No, wait.
posted by ersatz at 1:48 PM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

A position I've stated on MetaFilter for, what, nigh on seven years now is that it's more rude, more incivil, to trot out bullshit than to call something bullshit. Trotting it out is profoundly disrespectful of the American people, and a veneer of civility that allows that rot to flourish is something that the bullshitters only appeal to after they've lied to your fucking face. Fuck 'em.

You ungrateful little savage. Ronald Reagan endured sleepless, cold nights to teach George Washington and Christopher Columbus how beat the British and Indians by lowing taxes and you spit on the benefits of our continent by mouthing off.

See what happens when you breed communism with socialism, America? Foul mouthed hippie internet commenters.

God, I bet you don't even have a summer home.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:52 PM on October 12, 2012 [12 favorites]

it's more rude, more incivil, to trot out bullshit than to call something bullshit. Trotting it out is profoundly disrespectful of the American people, and a veneer of civility that allows that rot to flourish is something that the bullshitters only appeal to after they've lied to your fucking face.

Since I can only favorite this once, I'm quoting it in uber-agreement.

Respect lies in substance, not style.
posted by Superplin at 1:52 PM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

Yes, but many Americans don't want someone who tells the truth if it hurts. They don't want to hear about working harder for less. They don't want to hear about sacrifices. They don't want to hear about not getting their way. They want to be told that they'll all be millionaires some day. That their religious views are the "right" ones and will be enforced by law. That the environment will be just fine, and that they can fight and win as many wars as they want.

In short, they want someone to lie to their face, and they'll elect the best man for the job.
posted by ceribus peribus at 2:05 PM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

To those who cry that Vice President Biden did not show Congressman Ryan the appropriate "respect", I say: what on earth has Ryan done to DESERVE Biden's respect? To earn it? Not one damn thing, as far as I can see. Ryan is, IMO, the antithesis of Biden, and Biden knows it.

Yes, every civilized human being owes a certain level of basic decency to every other human being, and the fact that Biden sat down and listened to Ryan lie through his teeth and reacted only with laughter showed that level of decency. It was probably better than I could have done if confronted with the same situation.

If you want me to actually respect someone, they damn well need to earn it. Neither Romney nor Ryan has done anything I can see to earn my respect, or the respect of someone like Joe Biden. So, to those who complain about a lack of "respect": damn straight.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 2:10 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

Yes, every civilized human being owes a certain level of basic decency to every other human being,

I wouldn't go that far.
posted by clarknova at 2:11 PM on October 12, 2012

Yes, every civilized human being owes a certain level of basic decency to every other human being...

Biden did not reach over the table, grab Ryan his lying ass neck and do the patent pending "Body Slam of Truth" so I'd say he was pretty respectful.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:16 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

ericb: "Soledad O’Brien Clashes With Erick Erickson Over Raddatz’s Moderating: ‘I Think You Have Lost Your Mind’"

I've been noticing a pattern in my Reader feed the last few days:

Soledad O’Brien presses Romney surrogate who voted to cut embassy funding but blames Obama for attacks

During his multiple appearances on CNN and Fox News, Chaffetz used the same line of attack and met little resistance. That is, until he faced off with O’Brien on Wednesday.

Reince Priebus whines that Soledad O’Brien too ‘passionate’ about grilling Romney

Soledad O’Brien grills Romney adviser over ‘completely contradictory’ foreign policy

You have my attention, Ms. O'Brien.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:19 PM on October 12, 2012 [15 favorites]

You missed one from earlier -

John Sununu vs. Soledad O’Brien on Paul Ryan budget

“Yes, there is! Yes, there is!” O’Brien said over the governor’s objections. She continued, “Sir, let me finish. Let me finish. There’s independent analysis, [Factcheck.org], the CBO and CNN has also done its own independent analysis and name-calling to me and somehow acting as if by repeating a number of $716 billion, that you can make that stick. … That’s not true. You can’t just repeat it and make it true, sir.”
posted by TwoWordReview at 2:24 PM on October 12, 2012 [14 favorites]

One of my Grand Theories is that the nation needs to suffer a great cataclysm to unite it. It took Europe a long time and many many bodies to figure out that taking care of others is a must for a civil society.

I hope I'm wrong.
posted by angrycat at 2:39 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Pin The War On Your Opponent

In a remarkable act of 'pin the war on your opponent' Vice President Joe Biden on Thursday evening worked to portray Paul Ryan as the candidate most in favor of continuing the unpopular fight in Afghanistan, a conflict President Barack Obama once called the "war that has to be won" and to which he added 33,000 American soldiers.

Biden said that Ryan and his GOP running mate Mitt Romney support a timeline for drawdown of the remaining troops in Afghanistan that is based on conditions on the ground. And then he proceeded to ridicule that idea.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:44 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that anyone still undecided at this point is likely not going to see Biden suplex Ryan and think to themselves, "Well, I essentially see Obama and Romney as nearly identical, so I had no idea who to vote for - until that smug prick Biden had the nerve to smirk and chortle at Paul Ryan! This clinches it for me!"

here's the thing-- when people talk about politics, they chortle, smirk, and call people on their bullshit. Biden acted like a normal person. The reason Obama got such a bad reception to his performance is that he didn't act like a "normal person" talking about politics. He let Romney drone on, let him get away with stuff he shouldn't have, and didn't forcefully and passionately defend his own record and what he believed in. Needless to say, viewers didn't relate to that. They related to the way Biden handled himself because that's how people who care about politics act.
posted by deanc at 2:45 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

One of my Grand Theories is that the nation needs to suffer a great cataclysm to unite it.

W. did his best. Two wars, smashed economy, global crisis by deregulation. His would-be successor wanted to bomb Iran and chose Sarah Palin as a VP. Yet the result of 2008 was a margin of 7.3%. Not huge.
posted by ersatz at 2:55 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

One of my Grand Theories is that the nation needs to suffer a great cataclysm to unite it.

W. did his best.

Yah, we had a pretty good cataclysm in 2001 that united us for about 2 weeks. That kind of theory is not a good one to get stuck on - it is exactly why so many people romanticize wars.

Anyway, even IF there was once a time when "a good war" would join the nation together, we don't live in a time like that now. Only some people are even directly affected by war. Everything is specialized and departmentalized, from the work you do to the news you listen to to the pop culture you take in. I don't think we can expect to unite in that old-fashioned way again...
posted by mdn at 3:07 PM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

One of my Grand Theories is that the nation needs to suffer

2009: "Maybe if we suffered"...
posted by cashman at 3:23 PM on October 12, 2012

Oh man, I wasn't trying to romanticize war. I was mulling over conversations I have with my shrink, a guy who was born during the Great Depression. We talk about the sort of eroding of the social fabric.

I hate the America that invaded Iraq. I was opposed to the invasion of Afghanistan. I'm a big fan of Derek Filkins, the NYT/New Yorker journalist who writes about the horrors the U.S. has visited upon the Middle East. I was a New Yorker in 2001 and pictures of the Towers burning, or just the Towers as they were before they fell, fills me with dread.

What I do think is that Americans have spoiled for a long, long, long time. We have fought wars by essentially drafting those who have no other opportunities. Remember Victory Gardens? When, as a nation, we had to unite to combat an existential threat?

The Civil War was an existential threat -- in that the Union was threatened. The Cold War was an existential threat, but somehow we avoided that cataclysm. By the skin of our teeth. But now the Cold War is sort of memories of Reagan and Threads and The Day After and the sort of scary thrill of imagining a nuclear holocaust.

But as a nation, what have we suffered since the Civil War that approximates the deprivation the rest of the world has experienced? That's what I'm getting at. I want humans to be different, but I don't think we are: we are animals at heart, unless and until some impetus -- usually borne of deprivation -- allows us to transcend ourselves.
posted by angrycat at 3:28 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Ha! Made it to the end of the thread! No one comment any more!

Kidding....
posted by annsunny at 3:57 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

In a remarkable act of 'pin the war on your opponent' Vice President Joe Biden on Thursday evening worked to portray Paul Ryan as the candidate most in favor of continuing the unpopular fight in Afghanistan...

Isn't he? (Unless Romney is outracing him to battle.) The Republican ticket is hammering Obama and Biden for "weakness" precisely because they're ending the Afghanistan war, and further attacking them for reducing the number of troops to reflect the end of Iraq and Afghanistan, again as "weakness."
posted by msalt at 4:18 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

The real disagreement is even more profoundly stupid — that it's a mistake to tell the Afghans when we're leaving. Like, setting a date. Because that means that people can wait us out.

The problem is that if you don't do this, you have a perpetual war with no ending. And also, what, like, if we leave without giving them a date the Taliban won't notice? Is the plan to just leave them a bunch of leftover cutouts from Tower Records dressed up in desert camo?
posted by klangklangston at 4:22 PM on October 12, 2012 [14 favorites]

We will announce our departure date in the form of a clever rebus. This will confound the Taliban while informing the more astute everyday Afghanis. Problem solved.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:25 PM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

The 538 now-cast is now at 276.2, and a 56.1% chance of winning. Can I panic now?
posted by Theta States at 4:30 PM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

How much more relevance will these voter I.D. laws have now, does anybody have a read on that? My take before whatever madness has seized the electorate was that they wouldn't do that much, given the lead Obama has. Now --- is this something that could decide the race?
posted by angrycat at 4:37 PM on October 12, 2012

Theta States, read this it will make you feel better: Why the President is still a heavy favorite on the prediction markets
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:42 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm hoping that someone is just about to come forward with info on Romney's Swiss Bank accounts...
posted by Theta States at 4:48 PM on October 12, 2012

Oh man, I wasn't trying to romanticize war. I was mulling over conversations I have with my shrink, a guy who was born during the Great Depression. We talk about the sort of eroding of the social fabric.

But what is that social fabric really? It's always been something to which some people have been excluded from others because of race, homeland, class or culture. You don't tend to find as many elderly black people looking back fondly to the good old days. You tended to have a lot of smaller, localized fabrics, communities that stuck together, often against larger societal oppression. There was always an "other" for communities to band together against; closeness between people was always paid for by pushing against someone else.

While an age in which there was an overall social fabric is largely fiction, that doesn't mean we can't construct something more inclusive, all by having a little thing, largely forgotten by the sorry race of humanity, called empathy.
posted by JHarris at 4:50 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Intrade was not happy with the Obama team today.
posted by wierdo at 4:50 PM on October 12, 2012

If Harry Reid is holding some sort of evidence to prove his claims that Romney has crooked taxes, now would be a good time to show it.
posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 4:51 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

JHarris, agreed.
posted by angrycat at 4:53 PM on October 12, 2012

A point to consider... we have been at war in Afghanistan for approximately 1/4 of Paul Ryan's life.
posted by edgeways at 4:55 PM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

edgeways, that is an incredibly depressing thought.
posted by wierdo at 4:57 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

The more I see of Ryan the more he makes my skin crawl. I just cannot get used to that weird self-consciously puppy-doggish look he does to camera. It makes me feel like he's trying to figure out a way of drug raping me through the TV. Genuinely unpleasant.
posted by howfar at 5:10 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

howfar called it: Ryan stole Nirvana baby story.
posted by misha at 5:22 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

howfar called it

Yay me!
posted by howfar at 5:35 PM on October 12, 2012

corb has always been up front about working at the intersection of grassroots public advocacy and the non-profit-industrial-complex-type jobs in NYC. There's nothing secret about that. And because that working environment is pretty unfriendly to her brand of right-wing propertarianism, MeFi is her outlet.

Yeah, sorry if I freaked anyone out by that comment, but essentially this. I came to Metafilter to discuss the debate because I wanted to talk to other smart people that I could have an honest discussion with. But yeah, I definitely am not paid by either party, and I think both parties are probably vaguely annoyed with my org if they know it at all.
posted by corb at 5:35 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Wow! could he be that brazen? Or is it possible it was a coincidence? I just don't know what to think, that's a pretty bold lie. And while politicians frequently lie (or shade the truth) about policy, sexual shenanigans aside I think lying about your family and your children is less common.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:36 PM on October 12, 2012

Matt Taibbi: Joe Biden Was Right to Laugh
posted by homunculus at 5:42 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

I saw a discussion on Jezebel about the bean story, and most commenters agreed that its a common belief that a foetus looks like that, so he may have stolen the story, but most likely not.
posted by annsunny at 5:48 PM on October 12, 2012

I mean, a lot of commenters either noticed the same thing, or said lots of mommyblogs noted it too.
posted by annsunny at 5:50 PM on October 12, 2012

They do look like lima beans at one point. And later, like tiny alien monkeys.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:50 PM on October 12, 2012

Insofar as Ryan believes his emotional bluster to be the height of reason and science, of course he would think that "personal anecdotes" mean "something that happened to a person".

But man, this is dumb even for him.
posted by Phire at 5:58 PM on October 12, 2012

Ryan stole Nirvana baby story.

"Nevermind." - Paul Ryan
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:01 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Why Is Scott Brown Pretending to Be Someone Else?
posted by homunculus at 6:02 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

The 538 now-cast is now at 276.2, and a 56.1% chance of winning. Can I panic now?

Kill the motor, dude. The Biden Goal Line Stand won't be apparent until Monday or Tuesday.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:14 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

The 538 now-cast is now at 276.2, and a 56.1% chance of winning. Can I panic now?

Kill the motor, dude. The Biden Goal Line Stand won't be apparent until Monday or Tuesday.

Well, I'm sorry. I'm panicking. Maybe it's just because I'm a hysterical woman, who knows, but that's quite a dip in such a short period of time.....
posted by anastasiav at 6:15 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I know a few people I had thought apolitical locally have started getting a blank stare in their eyes and chanting "Romney." I'm unsure how much I should confront them on this.
posted by JHarris at 6:22 PM on October 12, 2012

go breathe into a bag for a while. Try not to concede anything to the bag. You'll be fine.
posted by boo_radley at 6:22 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Well, I'm sorry. I'm panicking. Maybe it's just because I'm a hysterical woman...

Enough of that, ain't no such thing.

No, you are not wrong, it's a totally crazy drop, but if you live by the debate, you die by the debate. Ryan was murdered on the field of rhetorical battle.

Biden did what was needed to get the buzz back on the Democrat side. It's not enough to reverse the trend, but it will slow or stop it... and it will get eyeballs back on the tube for the next Romney/Obama tussle, and I don't think you are going to catch Obama flat-footed twice in one month.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:23 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I know a few people I had thought apolitical locally have started getting a blank stare in their eyes and chanting "Romney." I'm unsure how much I should confront them on this.

Lock yourself in the broadcast booth with your producer.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:24 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

This article from yesterday may help you feel better.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:25 PM on October 12, 2012

The title of this FPP makes me think of this.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:27 PM on October 12, 2012

Joe Biden: Just ask yourself: With Robert Bork being the chief adviser on the court for — for Mr. Romney, who do you think he's likely to appoint?

For those who want know more about Robert Bork or are just Senate confirmation hearings junkies, I just wanted to point out that the entire Bork Supreme Court Nomination hearings are available here.
posted by Bokmakierie at 6:27 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Not sure there's any use in being scared. But I do not think we should be complacent.

Not too late to canvass.
posted by Miko at 6:37 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

Intrade: Barack Obama to be re-elected President in 2012
Lowest Ask $6.03 1 share
Highest Bid $5.93 996 shares

Someone is dumping, hence the drop. Either that or there's this HUGE news event going on that I missed, on the order of Obama declaring he's a secret alien terrorist lizard.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 6:49 PM on October 12, 2012

I don't think this has been posted yet – two hours ago Ze Frank posted the absolute best rundown of the VP debate anybody has done or will do. You should watch it now, because it is awesome.
posted by koeselitz at 6:51 PM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

Orange Pamplemousse: Either that or there's this HUGE news event going on that I missed, on the order of Obama declaring he's a secret alien terrorist lizard.

Important: Colbert Investigates Claims That Barack Obama Is A Gay Martian, Alex Alvarez, Mediaite, 12 October, 2012
posted by ob1quixote at 6:53 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Paul Ryan Stimulus Funds Requests Show VP Nominee Asked For More Than Previously Reported

Vice President Joe Biden attacked Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) for criticizing the president's stimulus act despite having sent two separate requests for stimulus funds for his district. Biden was wrong. Ryan sent at least four requests.

A Freedom of Information Act request for correspondence between Ryan's office and the Environmental Protection Agency, filed by The Huffington Post, unearthed two additional instances in which the Wisconsin Republican petitioned for American Recovery Act funds.

Copies of the letters.
posted by cashman at 7:27 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

"Ryan stole Nirvana baby story."

"As the baby on the cover of 'Nevermind,' I learned an important lesson about working hard for what I want."
posted by klangklangston at 7:37 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

"I know a few people I had thought apolitical locally have started getting a blank stare in their eyes and chanting "Romney." I'm unsure how much I should confront them on this."

"Hey, as somebody who has a sick mother/gay brother/sister in the UAW, this election matters to me personally. Some of the stuff that Romney and Ryan are proposing sounds good, but it'd really hurt my family/me. I don't mind if you're voting for Romney or anything, I'm just letting you know that it matters to me."

Insert whatever things actually matter to you, and how they would affect you. There's plenty of 'em, but pick one and keep it short. You can also mention this to people who you're friends with who aren't Romney supporters. Them you can also mention it to that you can tell whether they vote, since that's public record.

Honestly, that's what the ground talk for Obama supporters needs to be: This election matters. Obama's not perfect, but don't say "Fuck you, got mine" to folks who need health care, education and jobs.

Most of us on MetaFilter, honestly, can afford a Romney presidency. The Union's resilient. But there are plenty who can't, and we all know 'em and love 'em. Romney doesn't know 'em and couldn't give two shits about 'em except as part of a rhetorical circle and potential votes.
posted by klangklangston at 7:49 PM on October 12, 2012 [21 favorites]

During the W years, I realized that I grew up in an America where people believed or at least claimed to believe that "We are all in this together."

The America I live in now seems not to believe in this at all. Even if the president manages to win the election, I worry that there is no way to fix our real problems when so many people believe their neighbors are shiftless and lazy.
posted by wittgenstein at 7:57 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

To be blunt, a Romney victory would mean at least one more decade-long war in the middle east, maybe two - Syria or Iran or both - paid for with debt compounded by steep tax breaks for corporations and wealthy individuals. Dubya Two. That would absolutely bankrupt the USA. In the aftermath... the end of social security, and the legalized dismantling of pension funds.

That's your parents and mine, folks. Hope you all have a spare bedroom or two. No, you won't be able to afford the doctor or the prescriptions for them, so they won't be a burden for long.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:11 PM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

You are right, klangklangston. We do all need to do this one-on-one, in the ground game. It's personal.
posted by Miko at 8:17 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Florida GOP Group Uses Image Of Dead Ambassador’s Body In Obama Attack Ad
posted by homunculus at 9:14 PM on October 12, 2012

Florida GOP Group Uses Image Of Dead Ambassador’s Body In Obama Attack Ad

From a link within that link:

A video posted by the New York Times shows Stevens being pulled out of a window shortly after the attack. People in the crowd can be heard saying that Stevens is alive and that they would be taking him to the hospital.

The photographer and the government have said that the crowd was taking Stevens to a hospital. Right wing blogs and outlets have claimed that the crowd pulled Stevens corpse out of the building and sodomized it.

Jesus. To say that is just beyond sick and twisted. This shit has got to stop.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:34 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Nate Silver has the election on the verge of tossup territory as of today. The trendlines are shocking. Not being pessimistic, just stating a fact. My suspicion is the Obama campaign will fall back to an Ohio + Iowa or Nevada strategy, while maintaining just enough pressure in Florida and Virginia to tie down a bunch of Romney's resources. I also strongly suspect that the Obama camp is even as we speak doing an unprecedented amount of GOTV in Ohio to bank votes on the assumption that even with bad trendlines they can stop the bleeding on Tuesday and every vote they get now is one they don't have to worry about later.

The really crazy thing is the 269-269 tie scenario is starting to look scarily plausible. IMO the most likely map to give that result is Obama carrying Ohio and New Hampshire but losing Iowa and Nevada.

I keep checking for the trendlines to stabilize, albeit at basically a tie at this point. But they're still zooming up/down.
posted by Justinian at 9:40 PM on October 12, 2012

Let me guess, that ad is the sort of free speech we can expect from Citizems United.
posted by gofargogo at 9:40 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Right pointing out the SCOTUS hangs in the balance.

Ginsburg is 79, Kennedy and Scalia are 76, Breyer is 74, Thomas is 64, Alito is 62, Sotomayor is 58, Roberts is 57, and Kagan is 52.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:45 PM on October 12, 2012

The Car Crash Paul Ryan Should Have Avoided at the VP Debate
posted by naoko at 9:55 PM on October 12, 2012

So rereading the transcript, I guess Stuxnet is still classified? It seems like that would have been a great hammer to break over Ryan's head when he said that Iran is "four years closer" to a bomb.

Of course, Ryan's logic is so shitty to begin with that we could complain about Reagan letting Iran get eight years closer to the bomb. It assumes that they will one day have one no matter what anyone does. Which may be true, but isn't something you can reasonably claim at the present.
posted by wierdo at 10:02 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Jesus. To say that is just beyond sick and twisted. This shit has got to stop.

Republicans want it more. And no one will call them on it, no matter how low they go.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:04 PM on October 12, 2012

The Car Crash Paul Ryan Should Have Avoided at the VP Debate

The very last line of that article packs a wallop. With what it doesn't say.

As time goes on, I grow more and more confused about that car story. It didn't fit. It clearly was rehearsed. But who the hell is so crass and insensitive to rehearse a story like that for a debate against Biden? I know the theory that it was purposeful -- an attempt to throw Biden off his game by making him, instead, overcome with (wholly appropriate) emotion from his memories. That theory doesn't sit right with me, though, because I've seen enough of Biden's speeches (which means anyone preparing to debate Biden should've seen far more than enough of 'em) where Biden is able to take that deep aching pain clearly in him and make use of it rather than let it kill him. Anyone should've been able to tell that trying to throw him off in such a way would backfire.

So I'm left confused. And, from that confusion, a little sprig of disturbance grows. And that little sprig's roots latch on tightly to that line. "The script complete, the debate done, Ryan was joined on the stage by his wife and kids."
posted by meese at 10:11 PM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

I grow more and more confused about that car story. It didn't fit. It clearly was rehearsed. But who the hell is so crass and insensitive to rehearse a story like that for a debate against Biden?

Yeah, it made zero sense. And Biden jumped on the opportunity, just as I expected him to. He wouldn't have brought it up otherwise, but it was basically an invitation by Ryan. I think Ryan is just an idiot.
posted by mek at 10:16 PM on October 12, 2012

I don't know if this is a thing, but it was quite perturbing how American political discourse seems to treat the truth and what the government says. It occurred to me when Raddatz was pressing Biden on the Libyan issue - 'there were no protests' and the implied 'so why did you say at first that it was protesters, huh?' Biden was trying to explain that intelligence told them something which they then passed on to the public, and when the verdict changed the government obviously changed what they said too.

But still - the implication seemed to be that if they were saying something they later corrected, either they are stupid or lying. Why? It's so crazy. Yes, we need to hold governments and politicians to the truth - facts matter. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't correct themselves when they're wrong, does it?
posted by undue influence at 10:21 PM on October 12, 2012

Nate Silver has the election on the verge of tossup territory as of today. The trendlines are shocking. Not being pessimistic, just stating a fact.

No joke. The generally stable "Nov. 6th forecast" trendlines for the popular and electoral votes have been on converging 45° angles since the first debate, charting a greater bounce for Romney than the (strong) bounces Obama got out of the Democratic convention and the "47%" debacle combined -- and there's no sign of a slowdown yet.

The more sensitive "Now-cast," which estimates the vote if the election were today? Jesus, just look at it.

I agree the Sullivanian freakouts were premature, but a catastrophic slide is currently being borne out by polling filtered through the most rigorous and evenhanded methodology publicly available. I know large swings in both directions are possible even with less than a month to go, but this is placing incredible pressure on next Tuesday's debate just to avert collapse.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:30 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

I think Ryan is just an idiot.

As I get older, I'm coming more and more to respect stupidity. Not seek it, not desire it, but respect enough not to disparage it. To be honest, I would be happy with a stupid president -- were she or he also kind and caring. An idiot, with a good heart and the concern to hear out others, can do good.

But the kind of idiot who could make the mistake that Ryan made, if really the explanation just is idiocy? That's the kind of stupidity that stems from a lack of care. It's a stupidity of the heart, not the head. And that kind of stupidity, I'd wager, is both reckless and dangerous.
posted by meese at 10:31 PM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

A large swing in romneys direction from here is not possible. He is at his absolute ceiling of support. It'll revert back to what it was before the conventions pretty soon, with Obama having a real but small lead. Y'all have to vote.
posted by empath at 10:47 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh, I'm gonna vote. I'm gonna vote hard. But I think you're being unduly optimistic.
posted by Justinian at 10:52 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

A large swing in romneys direction from here is not possible. He is at his absolute ceiling of support. It'll revert back to what it was before the conventions pretty soon, with Obama having a real but small lead.

There is absolutely no basis for believing this.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:55 PM on October 12, 2012

Romney has never polled better than this. There are only so many swingable voters.
posted by empath at 10:57 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

empath is basically right. It's possible that Romney could indeed go much higher than he is now, but very unlikely given party ID, presidential approval ratings, and other factors. There just aren't that many undecideds out there.

As I mentioned before, most of Romney's gain has actually been due to increasing enthusiasm on the part of Republicans. One hopes that Biden's performance will have helped the Democrats close the gap.
posted by wierdo at 11:09 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Honestly I think the president's huge advantage before the first debate was an aberration. Like him or not, an incumbent president in a country with approximate 8% unemployment is not in a strong position. It's just that Romney continually sabotaged himself and was otherwise extremely unlikable. The closeness we're now seeing is what the race would have been months ago if the GOP had found a likeable candidate. I think a lot of people vote based on instinct more than researched, rational thought. Obama was perceived as being weak once and that was all it took for many to decide to change their vote. It's like blood in the water. Some voters don't care about good policies, the truth, or justice. They want strength.
posted by clockworkjoe at 11:59 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

The Questions That Haven't Been Asked
posted by homunculus at 12:25 AM on October 13, 2012

What To Do With Political Lies?

Fact-checking was a great development in accountability journalism -- but perhaps it's time for a new approach. It's no longer enough to outsource the fact-checking to the fact-checkers in a news environment where every story lives an independent life on the social Web and there's no guarantee the reader of any given report will ever see a bundled version of the news or the relevant fact-checking column, which could have been published months earlier. One-off fact-checking is no match for the repeated lie.

Objective news outlets had to deal with this last cycle, too. Remember the huge controversy over how to cover the allegations that Obama was a Muslim without just publicizing the smear -- or suggesting that there is anything wrong with being Muslim?

The solution now as then lies in repeated boilerplate, either inserted by editors who back-stop their writers, or by writers who save it as B-matter (background or pre-written text) so they don't have to come up with a new way of saying something every single time they file. Basic, simple, brief factual boilerplate can save an article from becoming a crutch for one campaign or the other; can save time; and can give readers a fuller understanding of the campaigns, even if they haven't had time to read deep dives on complex topics.

I think the 'gish gallop' is part of a deliberate strategy, and I'm seeing the next step pop up in various places. Some of the talking heads are going 'Obama can't do anything but call Romney a liar - that's a schoolyard taunt, not Presidential.' By getting out in front with false information, they are setting the tempo of the campaign.

It is a poor indication of the state of the electorate that this is working, that people simply don't know enough to know better.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:40 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

The RAND survey printed well this morning. Obama improved to +3 in the forecast, barely within the margin of error. Their Ohio forecast isn't looking great, but it's highly divergent from other polling. Florida is shown as neck and neck with Obama less than +1, or well within the MoE. The state level data is of limited quality, though, so don't think too much of it.

The survey participants, as they have the entire time, still believe Obama will win. Still only about 40% believe that Romney will win. Obama's number has declined since its peak, but is still over 53%.
posted by wierdo at 1:38 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

But still - the implication seemed to be that if they were saying something they later corrected, either they are stupid or lying. Why? It's so crazy. Yes, we need to hold governments and politicians to the truth - facts matter. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't correct themselves when they're wrong, does it?

I hear you, but my understanding is that the embassy attack was something they were likely lying about, that the correct information was out there from the beginning.

Maybe the political pressure to massage the truth here didn't come all the way from the top, so -- most generously -- maybe Obama and Biden weren't aware of the situation, but can you think of a single time in recent years in which a U.S. 'intelligence community mistake' was made that initially caused things to look bad for whatever administration was in power only then to be corrected to a consensus truth that made the administration look better? Maybe I'm blinded a bit by the big-hitters (WMDs, Pat Tillman, etc.) and by confirmation-bias, and so maybe there are counter-examples I'm missing, so I think I do mean that as an open question.

In any case, I'd guess those in the media might be particularly upset with this change of story (more so than they were about fabricated WMD stories?), because blaming violence on a youtube video was something they could really run with. Not only did they get to trot out a story about how Muslim hatred/violence against the U.S. is so absurdly, patently irrational (all this for a youtube video?!) , but on top of that the story is implicitly about the potency of mass-media (all this for a youtube video!). And unlike with, say, WMDs, where -- in all honesty -- what can the viewing public possibly do to verify things one way or another ("I mean, it sure felt that they had them; still does, really."), here, once the truth is out, the earlier story sure sounds ridiculous ("You guys were foolish enough to believe all this could have been because of a silly youtube video? What do you take us for?").
posted by nobody at 3:54 AM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

This is going to sound geeky as heck, but fuck it. I re-read this thread last night and it reads like a play by play dramatic performance or classic baseball game, which is all to say, it was a fucking blast.

Someday, people will read these threads while watching archival footage and be able to live history almost real time.


HOLY FUCK PEOPLE! NERD-ORGASMS ALL OVER THE PLACE. AAAHHHHH!!!!
posted by Skygazer at 4:54 AM on October 13, 2012 [7 favorites]

nobody, thanks for that context.
posted by undue influence at 5:22 AM on October 13, 2012

Out on the Weekend

If you want the perfect distillation of why we mock Politico so often around these parts as Tiger Beat on the Potomac, you can't do much better than this sentence right here:

It is clear that Biden's substantive high points — and there were several places where he took clear command of the debate on issues ranging from entitlements to taxes — will be partly shadowed by his nonstop succession of incredulous smiles, sneers, taunts and guffaws that were apparently intended to show self-confidence and fighting spirit but struck many viewers as undignified and rude.

So, on the issues, all that messy stuff that's actually going to, you know, affect people's lives, Joe Biden made Paul Ryan look like a child. But that is balanced by the fact that he was behaved in the debate like he was Willard Romney or someone. The assumption buried in this kind of journalism — that, as a self-governing political commonwealth, the American people are essentially as stupid as Politico thinks they are — goes a long way toward explaining what many of our problems are.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:19 AM on October 13, 2012 [6 favorites]

Martha Raddatz Won The Debate

The clear winner of the debate last night wasn't Joe Biden or Paul Ryan. It was Martha Raddatz of ABC News. She asked both candidates tough questions, sought to keep them on track and brooked no nonsense, in contrast to the hapless Jim Lehrer, who should be forced to watch reruns of all the presidential debates for a month as penance for his lackluster performance. As Andrew Rosenthal of the New York Times notes, Raddatz "acted like a working journalist rather than a television personality." The verdict, as Politico reports, seems pretty much unanimous: Raddatz ruled.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:41 AM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

I'd argue that empath (I think empath said this) is right about the incumbent/bad economy thing, plus the newer things of social media and the 24 hr news cycle. The last two give rise to mob-like/herd-like behavior that is very scary. I mean, maybe I'm wrong -- but I don't remember an election falling out like this since Carter -- and Carter had to deal with hundreds of hostages in Iran.

There was something on NPR yesterday about how Kennedy had, I think, five days between the discovery of the missile sites in Cuba and his announcement of it. I think most of us know about how close of a call that was. If Kennedy had the internets breathing down his neck -- I dunno, maybe it would have played out the same way, but Jesus. The thought of it is nightmare-producing.

I will probably be okay during a Romney presidency, but my students won't. Many of them come from conditions of crippling poverty. I love my students more than I should, I mean, for mental health purposes, my attachment to them is a major source of stress, but I imagine many, many, many teachers, from the fictional Prez on The Wire to maybe every other inner-city teacher, feels the same. If Romney wins, they will be hurt.

I guess this is the point where I need to be doing some canvassing -- not in Philly, where I am, but making calls to Ohio.
posted by angrycat at 6:46 AM on October 13, 2012 [4 favorites]

The assumption buried in this kind of journalism — that, as a self-governing political commonwealth, the American people are essentially as stupid as Politico thinks they are — goes a long way toward explaining what many of our problems are.

No, people prefer to see politicians and people getting along, unless there's a clear asshole in the duo (or group). Then all hell breaks look on said asshole.

I likde Biden in the debate and think he won, hands down. But I get that he was off-putting to some people and why. Paul Ryan gets that people want to see someone likable in the office as opposed to someone who's right. Granted, few people will rarely explicitly articulate that, but it's generally true of most humans. Nobody wants the asshole on their team, unless he or she is charming and then by definition they aren't an asshole.

Biden did good, really good. He would have done better if he had dialed down the emotional stuff by about 20-30%. A single snort or sneer would be gone a longer way than a parade of them
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:46 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

He would have done better if he had dialed down the emotional stuff by about 20-30%.

You may be right. But fine-tuning his reactions of incredulity may be easier said than done. We also have to think about the counter-factual, if Biden had had the kind of debate he had with Palin. We might have now been talking about how presidential and reasonable-seeming Ryan was, not that Biden crushed him, which he did.

The key to Ryan's success is obsfucation. Letting him speak uninterrupted and unchallenged for 2 minutes straight in this type of setting is risky. Undecided viewers are not necessarily going to weigh Ryan's assertions and Biden's rebuttals equally, all things being equal. Therefore, Biden made it unequal, within the parameters of the format. Biden's tactics also, it seemed to me, to align with his true feelings and reactions to Romney and Ryan's positions and statements. Yes, some viewers may not have liked to watch Biden laughing at and belittling Ryan. It may even show up in the polls this week. But I think Biden met the objectives for election day, which was to make sure everyone understood where Romney and Ryan really, actually stood on the issues.

It will again be risky for Obama when goes up against Ryan's equal in obsfucation. He obviously cannot use the interruption defense, but I'm confident that Obama has the raw intellect and mental agility to handle Romney as long as he is prepared and is as determined as he was in 2008.
posted by Bokmakierie at 7:14 AM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

Paul Ryan gets that people want to see someone likable in the office as opposed to someone who's right.

I just don't get it anymore. Obama was the nicer, calmer and more presidential seeming guy in the first debate, and Romney was the rude one with his interruptions and bulldozing of Lehrer. Result? Everyone pans Weak Obama and loves Assertive Romney, even though it was widely reported that almost every single thing he said was total bullshit. The VP debate, Biden was more Romneylike but also had a few moments where he really was able to strongly connect with the viewers and otherwise had totally substantive, meaningful answers where Ryan's seemed canned and Ryan is getting lauded for being more calm and reasonable? Isn't there supposed to be a liberal bias in the media?

The difference to me is that Obama supporters are willing to concede that their candidate was weak, whereas the GOP candidates could kill a kitten on TV and their supporters would still rally behind them. Which I guess is all well and good but there are a significant number of people in this country who aren't interested in the political process and don't pay a lot of attention who I think may be influenced by the headline polls showing the GOP winning every debate. This is what really worries me. I know I am biased and I can't tell if my bias is blinding me but I don't understand what seems to be a double standard on the reporting of these things in the media.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:23 AM on October 13, 2012 [13 favorites]

The difference to me is that Obama supporters are willing to concede that their candidate was weak, whereas the GOP candidates could kill a kitten on TV and their supporters would still rally behind them.

I think there's an aspect to this, but I also think people like an underdog. Romney being "firey" is good narrative for his backers, because he's "speaking truth to power" (or, more correctly, vomiting lies to power) when he yells at the incumbent president. Biden, meanwhile is the Veep, and once in power, if you show any amount of dominance, it's hard not to be painted as aloof, or rude, or the other negatives associated therewith.
It's a little bit no-win, I suppose.
posted by qnarf at 8:33 AM on October 13, 2012

That and the systemic right wing bias in the US media. The majority of people believe that the media has a left-wing bias. Ask yourself, who told them to believe that? And who owns the machine that told them to believe that. The media always represents the interests of the rich while it remains the property of the rich. It's hardly fucking rocket science.
posted by howfar at 8:39 AM on October 13, 2012 [11 favorites]

I saw a discussion on Jezebel about the bean story, and most commenters agreed that its a common belief that a foetus looks like that, so he may have stolen the story, but most likely not.

This guy says basically what I thought of that story... I only wish Biden had called Ryan on the idea that he "respects" people who think differently. Do you respect murderers then? Or are you actually pro-choice? So many anti-abortion people seem utterly confused about what their position really means.

I think a lot of people vote based on instinct more than researched, rational thought. Obama was perceived as being weak once and that was all it took for many to decide to change their vote. It's like blood in the water. Some voters don't care about good policies, the truth, or justice. They want strength.

Yes, exactly. Obama seems to miss this point too often. He thinks people want to be inspired when really they want to be led. He keeps trying to talk to the Jon Stewart/reddit contingent when that's basically tied up - he has to reach other parts of the country but gets frustrated that they don't get it... But it's useless to expect them to. They're looking for something different and he has to play the part.
posted by mdn at 8:49 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

Believe me, I definitely think the US media has a right wing bias. But for the vast majority of the population, the idea that there is a liberal bias in the media is almost a foregone conclusion and there is no convincing them otherwise. I don't think it really matters, because most people are pretty set in their opinions and trying to convince them otherwise just makes them dig in deeper, but I do wish I could put together some kind of an eloquent argument to try to get people to see this. At this point, when it comes up I just tell people to read the BBC, the Guardian or the FT if they want intelligent reporting without a stake in the game and less bias.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:51 AM on October 13, 2012

Right pointing out the SCOTUS hangs in the balance.

It certainly was right to do so, and if Romney wins, there's a significant chance that the Supreme Court will be Sotomayor, Kagan, and seven conservatives for decades to come. However, frankly, I was a little put off by the way Biden phrased it:

"The next president will get one or two Supreme Court nominees."

He will get one or two. That's... rather morbid.

I went and looked at life expectancy charts published by the government -- just simple ones, based on nothing but current age, sex, and race -- and looked up all the justices. The earliest that any is "expected" to die, on average, is two full presidential terms from now:

• 2020: Kennedy and Scalia
• 2024: Ginsburg
• 2025: Breyer
• 2030: Thomas
• 2031: Alito
• 2035: Roberts
• 2041: Sotomayor
• 2042: Kagan

Now, obviously, this ignores several factors^*, and of course the possibility is a very important thing to take into consideration, but still, to say that the next president will get one or two... I dunno, I just didn't like it, I guess.

*: Factors it ignores include but are not limited to:

• There's a significant chance of dying before the expected time, obviously
• Maybe someone will just retire
• Individual things about the specific people, e.g. Ginsburg is a cancer survivor, Roberts looks to me surprisingly young and fit for a 57 year old, Sotomayor has diabetes, all of these people have high incomes and are probably at least moderately wealthy, etc.

posted by Flunkie at 8:56 AM on October 13, 2012

Wild swings have been characteristic of this whole election season. Remember when Bachmann and Cain were front runners?

Maybe it's all the real time polling. Or, more likely, the media's framing of the story and the candidates. But there's a certain segment of the electorate this year that just seems volatile.
posted by gentian at 8:57 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

Paul Ryan Stimulus Funds Requests Show VP Nominee Asked For More Than Previously Reported [READ].
posted by ericb at 9:09 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

If Obama is aggressively confrontational in the next debate he will lose and election day will feel weird because millions of people will be feverishly concentrating on synonyms for uppity.

Hopefully Obama will bring up the tax returns. The campaign looks like they've been holding them in reserve for weeks and weeks and I have a hunch the 2009 amnesty will be a large story before November. Romney will refuse to release obviously, but him explaining why he's different to every candidate since his dad will be interesting to watch.

I do also think that in the same way that 2004 changed a lot of ideas about how political fundraising works, 2012 will be the election where the polls stopped making sense.
posted by fullerine at 9:30 AM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

Flunkie, Justice Stevens retired at 90, but Souter reitred at 70. O'Connor retired at 75 (due to her husband's health), and Rhenquist died at 80, after a year long battle with cancer. So, having 4 out of 9 justices 74 and older is a big deal, I think.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:37 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

I tried to make it clear: I'm not saying the Supreme Court issue is not a big deal, and in fact I do believe that it is a big deal.
posted by Flunkie at 9:42 AM on October 13, 2012

America's great divide.
posted by cashman at 9:43 AM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

America's great divide.

Boils down to most people are ok with people on their side being flawed or irrational. But the other team? People will go nuts if the other team is the slightly bit slow, ugly, irrational, petty or any number of traits. Your guy is assertive. The other guy does the same thing, he's a pushy and arrogant jackass.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:48 AM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

This is what raises my blood pressure, the idea that somebody is 'put off' by blah blah blah. I am 'put off' that global warming is a burgeoning catastrophe that will bring on species extinction and hurt/kill those without the infrastructure to cope with it, because humanity's collective head is shoved up its collective ass.

That is not pretty, and I don't like to contemplate it. But it is the motherfucking truth.

Jesus.
posted by angrycat at 9:51 AM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

Romney/Ryan don't fill me with despair because they are slightly bit slow, ugly, or irrational. It is because all available evidence shows that their residency in the White House will badly hurt my people (meaning the urban poor) and because the earlier GOP residents of the White House badly hurt many people overseas.
posted by angrycat at 9:55 AM on October 13, 2012 [8 favorites]

angrycat, I assume that was directed to me, since you put "put off" in quotes, and I'm the only person who previously wrote it in this thread.

If so, you're seriously overreacting to what I said. Am I not allowed to be "a little" (as I said) put off by something just because there are things that are way more important? Do you think I'm going to avoid voting for Obama because of this? Is it really such an all or nothing thing for you? Are you never a little put off by anything that the person you intend to vote for says, or never a little put off by something just because there are things that are way more important?

If your blood pressure is seriously raised because I have the audacity to state that I was mildly put off by a little something Biden said, then, to quote you, "Jesus".

I'll shut up about this now, but come on.
posted by Flunkie at 9:58 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

Flunkie, what in general has got my back up is people saying they are going to vote X because something hasn't been spooned gently into their mouths. That this is something that is affecting the electorate can be seen in the numbers and answer to poll questions.

My rhetoric was overheated, so I apologize -- I shouldn't use you as a scapegoat for a kind of national psychosis (and was trying to avoid that by not naming you, but still, angrycat fail). But still, for the life of me, I really don't understand where you are coming from. Why a statement of fact would make you feel "put off" is not something I understand.
posted by angrycat at 10:18 AM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

The frustrating thing about the Libya situation is that it completely obliterates Obama's advantage on foreign affairs. At this point the third debate is Romney's to lose.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:32 AM on October 13, 2012

I'm gonna eat some more crow here and say that calling it a 'statement of fact' is not accurate. I will go to metafilter time-out corner now.
posted by angrycat at 10:33 AM on October 13, 2012

'Million Muppet March' Planned To Defend PBS After Romney Big Bird Comments.

'Million Muppet March' website.
posted by ericb at 11:11 AM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

Matt Taibbi: The Vice Presidential Debate -- Joe Biden Was Right to Laugh.
posted by ericb at 11:13 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

Morgan Freeman Narrates Obama Campaign Ad: 'The Last Thing We Should Do Is Turn Back Now'.
posted by ericb at 11:14 AM on October 13, 2012

How Wall Street Made Paul Ryan.
posted by ericb at 11:20 AM on October 13, 2012

New poll shows Obama with slight lead in AZ, of all places
posted by angrycat at 11:31 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

New poll shows Obama with slight lead in AZ, of all places


If there are any gods out there, please let this happen. It would be the best thing to happen to us since I moved here.
posted by Superplin at 11:44 AM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

New poll shows Obama with slight lead in AZ, of all places

Apparently representing a swing of 10% in a week. This makes no more sense than the Pew swing to Romney. I know there are outliers and weird swings in all polls, but the data seem ever more confused in this election.

I'm guessing that the issue is that, given the state of the global economy, this should have been a fairly easy fight for the Republicans, who have screwed up at pretty much every turn. As soon as Mitt Romney did something "right" (by lying of course, but whose counting?), a lot of scared, depressed and disaffected people started thinking that he might be an answer. But how robust is this support, if it's based on nothing more than someone sounding plausible for an hour or so? Will the people currently espousing it actually turn out to vote for Romney? The really scary thing? I don't think anyone knows.

Romney fluking his way into the White House would be a disaster for America. The world is going to change radically over the next for years. Firstly, it's probably going to come out of recession in the next. Secondly, presuming the Euro survives, a new EU will likely begin to emerge, with tighter fiscal and political union. The EU is already a larger economy than the US, and will remain comparable in size even without full UK participation. China is likely to come close to pushing the US into third place in GDP. The Middle-East will change radically, and no one knows how. One could go on.

This is one of the most crucial decades in US history, and having Mitt Romney, a man with no policy but self interest, in charge, would be a truly colossal blunder. Surely he can't luck out enough to manage it?
posted by howfar at 12:05 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

For those who need, as I do, a break from the news, I want give a partial thumbs-up to having BSG on in the background. On the one hand, all the stuff that made the finale so angrifying makes a lot more sense when you watch it from the beginning. On the other hand, there are all these meditations on the problems with the basic nature of humanity, which rang very true during the Bush years and are ringing true now.

I mean, the angel thing is pretty clear in those moments in the first few seasons when Angel Caprica is going on and on in Giaus' head, is the important thing here.
posted by angrycat at 12:30 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm guessing that the issue is that, given the state of the global economy, this should have been a fairly easy fight for the Republicans, who have screwed up at pretty much every turn.

538 seems to think that the economy would justify a small lead (1-2% IIRC) for Obama.
posted by ersatz at 12:42 PM on October 13, 2012

In 32 years we went from Watergate to Swiftboat. I think we have to face the fact that journalism is broken in America. There are no sources that Americans as a whole trust to report the news. All "truth" now comes in Red flavor or Blue flavor. I don't have any suggestions on how to fix this but I am in despair of the consequences when it comes to the question of who we will choose to govern us.

TL;DR: Romney lies, it doesn't matter.

So now that Billy Graham has endorsed Romney, he had to go back and remove the part on his web site where he calls Mormonism a cult
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:44 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

Wait does that make Elizabeth Warren Laura Roslyn?
posted by The Whelk at 12:49 PM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

but Warren will live forever. She is like Starbuck on some meds.
posted by angrycat at 1:00 PM on October 13, 2012

The big story today on Reddit and Daily Kos is that Bain is flying a Chinese Flag on their factory in Illinois.

Right now in Freeport, Illinois, some 170 workers at an auto sensor plant are sleeping in tents to protest Bain-owned Sensata Technology’s decision to ship their jobs to China.

The company recently made factory officials take down the American flag when they were forced to train their Chinese replacement workers, according to Tom Gaulrapp, with the United Steelworkers Union.

That's un-American, my friends.

This is taking place as Mitt Romney tries to convince people to believe that he doesn’t know about Bain's shipping American jobs overseas. He is trying to distance himself from Bain Capital, a pioneer of outsourcing where Romney made a fortune as CEO.

Raw Story:

Being told to train his replacement was humiliating and surreal, but Tom Gaulrapp said the worst part was when the plant’s US flag was taken down before the Chinese engineers arrived.

Gaulrapp decided it was time to take a stand against outsourcing and the man he blames for the loss of his job: Republican White House hopeful Mitt Romney, who founded the private equity firm that owns the Freeport, Illinois auto parts plant.

Romney’s ties to Bain Capital have burdened the Republican nominee’s hopes of winning the November 6 election as Democrats unfavorably paint him as a corporate raider who pioneered the outsourcing of US jobs to countries with lower labor costs.

Romney denies the charge, but his claim to be a man who could revive the economy and boost the prospects of American workers rings hollow here.

Salem News:

The Presidential Candidate holds major stock in a company called Sensata. The company recently made factory officials take down the American flag when they were forced to train their Chinese replacement workers, according to Tom Gaulrapp, with the United Steelworkers Union.

New York Times:

When Bain first led a buyout of Sensata, in fact, it laid off hundreds of American workers and sent their jobs offshore. As the Times reported, the Labor Department spent $780,000 retraining some of the laid-off employees.

In addition, Mr. Romney’s generous retirement agreement ensures that he continues to profit from the deals and decisions that Bain makes. He owns about $8 million worth of Bain funds that hold 51 percent of Sensata’s shares. If Sensata saves money by closing the Freeport plant, that could add money to Mr. Romney’s trust accounts, now or after the election.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:01 PM on October 13, 2012 [8 favorites]

6.5 minute Doc (or very long ad) about the situation at Sensata.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:06 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

Bruce to campaign for Obama.
posted by angrycat at 1:24 PM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

Al Jazeera examines what drives voters in Arkansas
posted by angrycat at 1:27 PM on October 13, 2012

More on Romney-related finances: a relative of mine is writing a paper on how Romney was able to bypass the $2,000 per year contribution cap on his IRA and amass $20 to $100 million in his IRA account. Looking online, it looks like a lot of this research has already been done.

According to the Wall Street Journal article it appears Romney was “placing equity shares of his companies’ investment funds there, or putting shares of private companies that his firm bought into his 401(k). “

In order to do this Romney had to severely understate the true value of the shares he contributed, a lie for which he could be held criminally liable. Romney did not stop there with his tax avoidance lies. It appears Romney then converted his 401(k) plan into an IRA and thus permanently avoided the contribution limits on IRAs.
...
Although Romney has claimed in interviews that he pays an average 15% in taxes. By corruptly circumventing the intent of IRA legislation meant to help working Americans save for retirement, Romney has succeeded in concealing $20 million to $100 million of his personal wealth from all taxes, an effective tax rate of 0%.

Emphasis original.

There's a bit more in a WSJ blog post from January (Romney IRA’s Offshore Investments: Helping His Tax Bill?):

Mr. Romney reported that his IRA, in total, produced income between $1.5 million and $8.5 million from the beginning of 2010 until Aug. 12, 2011.

In response to a question about whether investing in the Cayman Islands entities allowed Mr. Romney to avoid paying the UBIT levy, a campaign aide said late Wednesday: “Governor Romney’s IRA is tax deferred, just like the IRA’s of every other American. Its investments are in compliance with rules created to keep it tax deferred, just like it was intended to be.”

Yes, every other American has an IRA that produced income between $1.5 million and $8.5 million in a year and a half.

As I lack sufficient understanding of IRAs, could someone else explain how it would be legally possible to shift that much money into an IRA, if there's a $2,000 annual cap?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:10 PM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

New York Times: As Massachusetts Governor, Romney Was Often Away

When the ceiling collapsed in the Big Dig tunnel here, Gov. Mitt Romney was at his vacation home in New Hampshire. When the Bush administration warned that the nation was at high risk of a terror attack in December 2003, he was at his Utah retreat. And for much of the time the legislature was negotiating changes to his landmark health care bill, he was on the road.

During Mr. Romney’s four-year term as governor of Massachusetts, he cumulatively spent more than a year — part or all of 417 days — out of the state, according to a review of his schedule and other records. More than 70 percent of that time was spent on personal or political trips unrelated to his job, a New York Times analysis found.

As I stated above, Romney had no interest in governing our Commonwealth. He played out only one term with no interest of a second one. He held office just so he could say he won an election for public office. An opportunist and disengaged citizen 'leader'. Actually, not truly a 'leader.' No core. No principles. A hollow man.
posted by ericb at 2:15 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

As I lack sufficient understanding of IRAs, could someone else explain how it would be legally possible to shift that much money into an IRA, if there's a $2,000 annual cap?

You value the assets that you own in your private vulture capital corporation at an absurdly low amount, put them in your IRA, and voila, they gain millions.
posted by Flunkie at 2:17 PM on October 13, 2012

Romney’s Bounce Isn’t Helping in Senate Races, Polls Show.
posted by ericb at 2:18 PM on October 13, 2012

As Massachusetts Governor, Romney Was Often Away

And now he's so unpopular there he's barely bothering to campaign in Massachusetts at all.
posted by homunculus at 2:57 PM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

As I lack sufficient understanding of IRAs, could someone else explain how it would be legally possible to shift that much money into an IRA, if there's a $2,000 annual cap?

Hm, unfortunately, as far as I can tell, that $2000 amount isn't correct, no matter what kind of IRAs you're talking about. The most similar figure (from the IRS pages) is a 5000 limit on total contributions to either or both of a normal or Roth IRA.

However, there are limits for other sorts of IRAs that are way, way higher (SIMPLE IRA and SEP IRA). I think you need to set yourself up as though your income were made through self employment (or as a small business, in which case the same offer needs to be made to all other qualified employees, but if there's a pretend-company set up to gather the whole family's income(?) then that wouldn't be an issue).

In any case, if you can qualify, it looks like there's a 62,000 yearly limit for SEP IRAs if you make more than 250k, and a 23,000 yearly limit for SIMPLE IRAs (assuming half of that is tagged as coming from the employee and half matched from the employer, and assuming the employee's salary is large enough for that half to come out to no more than 3% of their yearly income).

And I have no idea if you can wrangle things to do both of those as once (or even multiply the SIMPLE numbers by any amount whatsoever by setting up his income as though it were coming from working for numerous small business, of which he and his family are the only employees?)

Oh, one more thing. These are all the 2012 numbers. Some of them were a bit smaller in 2011, and I have no idea how small they might have been in decades past. (But I'm pretty sure the regular/Roth SEP limit hasn't been lower than 4000 since at least before 2001, calling into question that smokinghotpolitics article a bit.)

And I should say: I'm totally not an accountant, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong about something here. (I just happened to help someone look through the SIMPLE IRA rules just yesterday for their sister-owned small business, and I'm self-employed so I had a vague but inaccurate awareness of SEP IRA limits before looking it up). I'm also not a Romney apologist! I outflank Obama far to the left!
posted by nobody at 3:23 PM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

For what it's worth, the latest fivethirtyeight graph (updated 3:10 ET today) shows a sharp Obamaward inflection point.
posted by COBRA! at 3:24 PM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure it makes sense to read too much into super-short-term changes in that model. Could be a Reversal Of The Trend, could be a blip or a bit of noise.
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:27 PM on October 13, 2012

nobody: "I hear you, but my understanding is that the embassy attack was something they were likely lying about, that the correct information was out there from the beginning."

Where was this correct information available from? I seem to recall seeing photos of crowds outside the consulate sans fire. Issa's witch hunt turned up at least one contemporaneous CIA memo stating that they believed it was a demonstration which was then taken advantage of by extremists.

Moreover, Obama used the word "terrorist" in describing the attack on the 12th.

The claim that the administration lied about the attack is pretty typical of Issa. He has run wasteful investigation after wasteful investigation and can never seem to seal the deal. His investigation into Chinese wind turbines? Turned out that maybe six of them out of over 20,000 used some Chinese parts. Six. I've no reason to believe there's any more substance to this latest charge.
posted by wierdo at 3:33 PM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure it makes sense to read too much into super-short-term changes in that model. Could be a Reversal Of The Trend, could be a blip or a bit of noise.

Agreed, but even a short respite beats the hell out of Constant Apocalyptic Nosedive.
posted by COBRA! at 3:45 PM on October 13, 2012 [6 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy: 6.5 minute Doc (or very long ad) about the situation at Sensata.

Thanks, SLoG. I try to not electioneer my friends and family too much, but that's getting forwarded to everyone!
posted by ob1quixote at 3:57 PM on October 13, 2012

Where was this correct information available from? I seem to recall seeing photos of crowds outside the consulate sans fire.

I probably should have prefaced what I had written more strongly, because I've been tuning out a lot of the news these days and absorbing some sort of haphazardly, but here's a Sept 13th article from McClatchy (are they reputable?) in which a wounded security guard says there wasn't anything that looked like a protest. And checking out the NYTimes articles from the day after it happened, it looks like you're right that they were calling it a terrorist attack immediately, but were also claiming the rationale was likely the youtube video, citing the (supposed?) protest from earlier in the day.

In any case, the main reason this is frustrating isn't because of whatever possible valence of lying or misinforming it represents, but because it's yet one more in a series of the U.S. government and media claiming they have no idea where all this 'muslim outrage' toward the U.S. is coming from. ("Those nutcases attacked us because of a silly Youtube video" is just as obfuscating as "They hate us for our freedom.")

That said, I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I recognize that I'm probably more prone to believing stories that make those in power look bad and being mistrustful of those that make them look good. To be honest, I was surprised when the moderator brought it up at all, but I realize now I hadn't yet seen that the whitehouse had already changed the official story.
posted by nobody at 3:59 PM on October 13, 2012

(Oh, somehow I wasn't aware until now that it was a congressional hearing on Libya that forced the story-change, and apparently a highly politicized one? Ugh, that's unfortunate.)
posted by nobody at 4:07 PM on October 13, 2012

("Those nutcases attacked us because of a silly Youtube video" is just as obfuscating as "They hate us for our freedom.")

But the protests and breach at the Cairo embassy 3 hours earlier was due to the silly youtube video. There has been confusion and conflation all along from both the press and critics as to which statements referred to which incident. I think some of the confusion was understandable due to the timing and chaos of the events. I think some of it was deliberate in order to score points against the administration. I think the administration probably kept the two incidents joined in order to cover their asses until they had more info, and because there was more info coming out of egypt, so they kept the focus there.

I havent seen any evidence that once it became clear the two were very different incidents that there was any effort to cover it up.

"They hate us for our freedom" Is an obvious obfuscation of years of US history in the middle east, much of it in no way flattering towards the US. I don't think you can put this video in the same class as that. Especially considering the situation in Libya at the moment is a giant question mark on all sides and has changed really quickly in a very short time.
posted by billyfleetwood at 4:26 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

nobody: "("Those nutcases attacked us because of a silly Youtube video" is just as obfuscating as "They hate us for our freedom.")"

While I agree the "they hate us for our freedom" is just silly and dumb, the YT video wasn't an unreasonable link to make, given the protests in Cairo and elsewhere that were directly related to the publicizing of that video.

Also, the White House updated its assessment long before the Congressional hearings began, presumably after being informed by the CIA or whomever they were leaning on that the initial assessment was incorrect. At the time, it was not known that there was a large attacking force.

I share your distrust of strangely positive stories regarding the government, but in this particular case I don't think the facts bear it out. Given the CIA memo, I'm inclined to believe the administration when they say that it was simply a case of early information turning out to be incorrect, as often is the case. As others said, in years gone by they'd have had a couple of days to get a clearer picture before having to go before the American people and explain what happened.
posted by wierdo at 4:29 PM on October 13, 2012

Also, the White House updated its assessment long before the Congressional hearings began

Oh, that is a relief (and makes a lot more sense). Thanks for the correction!
posted by nobody at 4:33 PM on October 13, 2012

That Sensata thing puts Romney's agitation regarding China in a whole new light...
posted by wierdo at 4:44 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

I had to be at a work function during the debate and all day Friday - it was so fabulous to come home and get the blow-by-blow by my favorite peanut gallery - thanks to all for such informative and amusing commentary and links.

Most have probably thought of this, but today would be a good time to show Joe a little love in the way of a campaign contribution. Besides the scariness of the polls this past week and the specter of vote suppression, there is another October surprise about to be unleashed: Romney tries to bury Obama in ads:

Republican nominee Mitt Romney and his allies are banking heavily on a high-risk, high-reward media strategy in the final weeks of the campaign, hoping that burying President Obama in ads will give them a crucial edge on Election Day.

Ad purchases in the presidential race doubled or in some cases tripled last week in swing states such as Colorado, Florida, Iowa and Virginia, tracking data show. The surge is being driven by Romney and well-funded allies, who decided against running more ads earlier in the campaign in favor of a big bang at the end.
posted by madamjujujive at 4:51 PM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

PPP says Ohio was really pro-auto bailout.
posted by drezdn at 4:59 PM on October 13, 2012

Man, this Romney bounce is no fun, what it reminds me of is the two weeks after the RNC convention in 2008, when Sarah Palin seemed to have made the whole of the GOtP and a good amount of Independents swoon over her, until she began to give those fateful interviews to Kate Couric and Charlie Gibson and the same people realized she wasn't VP material in the least.

I think this week is going to show just how sturdy this "Moderate Romney" bounce is going to last. I'm pretty anxious about it to tell the truth, the lag in the Gallup poll is no joke. Also in terms of what Obama is going to do on Tuesday though. This Libya bullshit fake controversy built on tragedy is disgusting though and I hope the Mittsy and Dittsy are nailed to a wall as hard as possible for playing politics with the deaths of Americans...I would think the "47%" footage has the proper response to that and should be lopping 24/7 in those swing states.

It's tough to watch someone you care about play that long game, yo.

But, he's got this..
posted by Skygazer at 5:07 PM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

The other thing to remember too is that Biden is showing his age, and is a bit out of touch on cultural touchstones...He's talking about Bork, who again, is from a fight they were too young to know.

It would behoove young people to get to know Robert Bork right away before it is too late because he represents the very real potential to impact their lives in totally frightening ways. As Romney's top legal adviser, this is indeed who would be picking out the next Supreme Court appointees. This 8.5 minute clip of Ted Kennedy's "Robert Bork's America" is a good starting place to learn just how scary life could get under a hand-picked Bork Supreme Court.

And Biden knows this all too well, he was key in derailing the Bork train after Reagan had nominated him to the Supreme Court. For a contemporary account, see Robert Bork: Mitt Romney's Corporate-Power Tool.

And be assured of one thing: Age and time have not tempered Robert Bork.

Young and first time voters: learn key opposition operatives and don't forget them because they don't go away, they just get better funded and smarter. I've seen all my youthful bete noire pols resurface again and again - Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bork - like some surreal zombie republican apocalypse, horribile dictu. Civil rights, gay marriage, voting rights, reproductive rights...these are so very fragile. I was under the illusion that once these battles were won, we could move on. Now I see that vital basic rights could be snatched back with one election. I always took comfort in the mechanisms of checks and balances with the various bodies in federal government. But Wisconsin, Florida, Ohio, and Arizona should be object lessons in the bold-faced and aggressive power that these the rightwingers intend to wield if they get control of a few governmental branches.
posted by madamjujujive at 5:41 PM on October 13, 2012 [31 favorites]

The media narrated Romney bounce was really a lucky break for all these news organizations. Just as it seemed people had no more need to pay close attention to news sites, it happened and people are glues to their politics sources again. Thank goodness the media driven narrative was able to shift in time to make the media a ton of money.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:11 PM on October 13, 2012 [9 favorites]

OK Hang on I think I just figured out something. Please let me know if other people are talking about this, or if I completely misunderstand the way things work.

So, Romney wants to cut taxes by 20% but then remove deductions so that people still pay the same.

(I'm just making up the numbers here, but stay with me. I know the math doesn't add up. Just pretend)

So, lets say I earn $10 per hour. Currently I pay $3 in taxes, and my employer matches that with $3. I have a deduction of $1, so I am basically paying $2 in taxes.

Romney comes in and gives me a 20% tax cut, so now I'm paying $2 in taxes. He also takes away the $1 deduction, so I'm still paying $2 in taxes, just like before. BUT, my employer is now also only paying $2 in taxes. So, the total tax income that the government is getting is reduced by $1, while my tax burden is not reduced at all. In fact, the only people who benefit from the tax cut are big businesses.

Is this what romney's doing?
posted by rebent at 8:17 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

Actually it's worse than that rebent because there is simply no way to cut marginal tax rates, remove tax deductions and not unduly shift the tax burden to the middle class or run a massive deficit.

Every thing that Romney's even sort of thrown on the table has been mathematical impossible and most of what he has suggested tends to complete screw middle class homeowners which would likely see their tax burden rise as their combined home mortgage interest, state and local taxes, and medical expenses would top out at some pretty low figure.

Simply put there is no way for Romney's plan to be remotely revenue neutral without increasing taxes on the middle class or the poor.
posted by vuron at 8:41 PM on October 13, 2012

Many rich people would benefit too, as in the following example:

Let's say I, Mr. Rich Guy, make $1,000,000 a year, and get taxed at 35%. So that's $350,000 in tax (ignoring marginal rates for purposes of simplification). I get a deduction for my mortgage interest and property taxes; I've got no mortgage, so just property taxes. Let's say $18,000 a year for my nice fancy home in my nice fancy neighborhood. So I wind up paying $332,000 in tax.

Romney becomes president. I now get 1/5 off my 35% rate! Great! So that's only 28% instead of 35%, and so I only owe $280,000 instead of $350,000. I no longer get my $18,000 deduction though, but still, that's cool, because I'm only paying $280,000 instead of $332,000.

On the other hand, let's say I, Mr. Notsorich Guy, make $50,000 a year, and get taxed at 25%. So that's $12,500 in tax (again ignoring marginal rates). I get a deduction for my mortgage interest and property taxes; let's say that's $500 a month, so $6,000 a year, so I wind up paying $6,500 in tax.

Romney becomes president. I now get 1/5 off of my 25% rate! Great! So that's now only 20% tax, and so I only owe $10,000, rather than $12,500! But wait a minute - I no longer get the $6,000 deduction. So I'm actually paying $10,000 instead of $6,500.

His (impossible) goal to do this in a revenue-neutral way is just window dressing to hide the rich-get-richer aspect of it.
posted by Flunkie at 8:43 PM on October 13, 2012 [15 favorites]

Huh, I wonder how much in deductions people at different income brackets get? My understanding is that everyone in america is up to their eyeballs in debt, and that being "rich" just means that you can afford more debt. The person making $50,000 a year is getting a $6,000 deduction because they have a $120,000 mortgage, yes. But, the person earning 1,000,000 a year doesn't own her house, because she has a $2,500,000 mortgage on her mansion.

So all I'm saying is, I wonder how many americans, and at what incomes, would benefit or not benefit from this 20%-off-but-no-deductions plan.
posted by rebent at 9:17 PM on October 13, 2012

Does this affect tax refund checks for lower income people? When you don't earn much, that's the one time of the year you have a big enough chunk of money at once to make bigger necessary purchases. Budgets in low income homes depend on it.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:26 PM on October 13, 2012 [3 favorites]

My understanding is that everyone in america is up to their eyeballs in debt, and that being "rich" just means that you can afford more debt.

Not really. The percent of income that the top 10% pay towards debt is something like half of that of the bottom 90%.

And remember "the top 10%" isn't really all that rich, on average; they're certainly very well off, but for the most part we're talking about people who make in the high five to low six figures - eighty, ninety grand, maybe $150,000, maybe even $200,000. I certainly don't mean to scoff at that, but that kind of money gets you a nice, comfortable, but vaguely typical suburban lifestyle in a pretty nice neighborhood; it doesn't get you mansions and Bentleys.

Their richness is a pittance compared to the top 1% or 0.1% or 0.01%. Or the Romneys of the world, for whom you'd have to add who knows how many zeroes after the dot. When you get up to the real money, I'd be very surprised if significant amounts of percentagewise debt is commonplace, with the possible exception of for tax avoidance planning purposes and such.
posted by Flunkie at 9:52 PM on October 13, 2012 [2 favorites]

so just property taxes. Let's say $18,000 a year for my nice fancy home in my nice fancy neighborhood. So I wind up paying $332,000 in tax.

Not sure if it is different in the USA, but in Canada if you have a $18k tax deduction, that just reduces the amount you have to pay taxes on.
So $1,000,000 income, a deduction of $18,000 means you are only paying taxes on $982,000.
It is not reducing your total taxes by $18k, but by $18k x 35% = 6300.
posted by Theta States at 10:02 PM on October 13, 2012 [1 favorite]

Right, Theta States. Sorry; I apparently need more sleep. Basic point stands, though; the hypothetical Mr. Rich Guy goes from $343,700 in taxes today to $280,000 in taxes under Romney. Unless I made another mistake, which I wouldn't doubt :)
posted by Flunkie at 10:08 PM on October 13, 2012

Since Romney is talking about deductions, he must mean BIG deductions. Like is there a cap on your mortgage deductions?
What about in claiming capital losses?
In Canada we have a set limit of capital gains deductions that can also be made. Those are the kinds of things that effect big money people. Most typical "deductions" are just gear to lower income earners, or at the very least have minimal effect in the scope of larger tax returns.

OH IT'D BE GREAT TO HAVE A POLICY PAPER LAYING OUT THE MATH.... HEY ROMNEY???
posted by Theta States at 10:19 PM on October 13, 2012

Theta States: "Since Romney is talking about deductions, he must mean BIG deductions. Like is there a cap on your mortgage deductions?
What about in claiming capital losses?"

IIRC, the mortgage interest deduction is good for interest on up to the first $1,000,000 in mortgage lending. I believe the limit for home equity loans/lines of credit is $150,000.

There is also a limit to the amount of capital losses you can use to offset against regular income, but losses can be carried forward to future years up to some time limit that I can't remember right now.
posted by wierdo at 10:39 PM on October 13, 2012

rebent: "So all I'm saying is, I wonder how many americans, and at what incomes, would benefit or not benefit from this 20%-off-but-no-deductions plan."

Calculated naively by eliminating deductions, taxing that amount at the effective tax rate for each income cohort, then reducing the new total tax burden by 20% gives us about $20 billion less revenue in total. That's not much, so great!

Problem is that the effective rate goes up on everyone making less than $200,000 a year (on average), while it drops significantly for everyone over that threshold. Romney would only see a 2.77% decrease in his tax rate if he were an average taxpayer making more than $10 million a year.

Interestingly, the tax increase wouldn't be very much per taxpayer on those seeing an increase. Of course each tax unit in Romney's income cohort would save an average of a little over $800,000 a year. The $75,000 to $99,999 income cohort would see the largest dollar increase at about $587 more per year on average.

This calculation should actually understate the gains/losses since it doesn't take into account the fact that removed deductions would actually be taxed at a higher rate than the present effective rate since that income would be taxed at the taxpayer's marginal rate rather than the taxpayer's lower effective rate.
posted by wierdo at 12:03 AM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

>>New poll shows Obama with slight lead in AZ, of all places
>Apparently representing a swing of 10% in a week. This makes no more sense than the Pew swing to Romney.

Except that the AZ poll is one of the few to ask questions in either English or Spanish, depending on the language that the person questioned speaks. Nate Silver notes this and points out that the only two Senate races he got wrong last time were in two very Latino-heavy states (where he underestimated the Democrat's vote totals.)
posted by msalt at 12:19 AM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

The sad thing is that the mortgage interest deduction is terrible policy but we can't even have a discussion about ending it because the well has become so poisoned. If I were allowed to get rid of one deduction in the federal tax code it would be this one.
posted by Justinian at 1:12 AM on October 14, 2012 [5 favorites]

Justinian, I agree. I wouldn't wipe it out immediately. That would totally clobber a lot of people who already signed mortgages based on this deduction. I would grandfather in any existing mortgages. And you couldn't wipe it out immediately for all new mortgages without putting a major crimp in the housing market. But we should be phasing out the deduction over something like a 10 or 20 year period, where each year the mortgage deduction is cut by 5% or 10%.

I hate personal debt, and over most of my life have done everything possible to get out of it. I bought my home over 25 years ago. I signed a 30-year mortgage. I chiseled away at the principal every chance I got. I paid it off in 13 years. I can't tell you how many times I have people tell me that I was a dummy for not taking the deduction and keeping my house mortgaged up to the hilt. I've been under-employed and struggling for the last 5 or 6 years, but I'm so glad I don't have a mortgage to worry about. I just wish that the government hadn't been punishing me for fiscal responsibility all these years.

The mortgage interest deduction doesn't encourage home ownership. It encourages people to live in homes owned by their bank. And actually it is no longer your friendly bank down the street. It's a faceless mortgage holder financial entity that doesn't give a rat's ass about you and your family, who would be just as happy to see you out on the street if it would make them richer.

If carefully phased out, we could encourage true home ownership with very little fallout to the housing market.

The only ones hurt by the end of the mortgage interest deduction would be banks.

I can live with that.
posted by marsha56 at 3:00 AM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

Except that the AZ poll is one of the few to ask questions in either English or Spanish, depending on the language that the person questioned speaks.

Yeah. I thought that the press-release was talking about a shift in their own polling, but that doesn't seem to be the case. My mistake, but I would prefer the press release to have been clearer.
posted by howfar at 5:56 AM on October 14, 2012

XQUZYPHYR: "In addition, the same poll says that 19% of Ohio voters have already voted early, and Obama is winning their votes nearly 3-1."

I feel much better now, it's going to take a lot for Romney to overcome that split in the vote.
posted by octothorpe at 6:23 AM on October 14, 2012

Ohio is going to be ridiculously difficult for Romney to win. It's still really dependent on manufacturing and being the outsourcing guy is going to be a tough sell in much of Ohio. Racism especially among working class whites does make things more difficult for Obama that it would otherwise be but Biden and Springsteen doing heavy campaigning in Ohio is probably going to help Obama out.

I think the more realistic path to 270 for Romney is actually the Nevada + Wisconsin path. Nevada has been tight most of the year and the economy in Nevada certainly isn't helping Obama. Wisconsin has just been strange for several election cycles. I wouldn't assume Republicans would ever be competitive but each cycle they seem to bring it somewhat in range.

I think Florida probably won't go blue but Virginia might especially if reverse coattails kick in.
posted by vuron at 6:51 AM on October 14, 2012

Don't Worry, Obama's Still Got This, Touré, New York Daily News, 14 October, 2012
posted by ob1quixote at 7:58 AM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

The Ohio news is definitely welcome. Very hard to see how Romney wins without Ohio; he can't count on running the table everywhere else.
posted by gerryblog at 8:04 AM on October 14, 2012

I really like Touré, though I've mostly thought of him as a fiction author (thanks to his black american magic-realism books in the early/mid-2000s). I didn't realize he's now a full-fledged pundit with a show on MSNBC. No wonder he fell of my literature radar...
posted by nobody at 8:10 AM on October 14, 2012

Obama Leads Among Early Voters: Poll.
posted by ericb at 9:09 AM on October 14, 2012

Ed Gillespie Challenged On Studies Supporting Romney Tax Plan.
posted by ericb at 9:10 AM on October 14, 2012

Obama Leads Among Early Voters: Poll.

Romney leads among voting machines.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:21 AM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

Chris Stevens' Death In Libya Shouldn't Be Politicized, Father Says.
posted by ericb at 9:29 AM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

Adam Gopnik | The New Yorker: Of Babies and Beans: Paul Ryan on Abortion.
posted by ericb at 9:52 AM on October 14, 2012 [3 favorites]

Adam Gopnik | The New Yorker: Of Babies and Beans: Paul Ryan on Abortion.
posted by ericb

I think it's worth pulling the key paragraph from that essay, because it made my jaw drop during the debate too.

Paul Ryan did not say, as John Kennedy had said before him, that faith was faith and public service, public service, each to be honored and kept separate from the other. No, he said instead “I don’t see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith. Our faith informs us in everything we do.” That’s a shocking answer—a mullah’s answer, what those scary Iranian “Ayatollahs” he kept referring to when talking about Iran would say as well. Ryan was rejecting secularism itself, casually insisting, as the Roman Catholic Andrew Sullivan put it, that “the usual necessary distinction between politics and religion, between state and church, cannot and should not exist.”

Combine this with Mitt's 2007 statement for some extra fun.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:53 AM on October 14, 2012 [10 favorites]

NYT: The Generation War

That was a time, much more so than now, when there were still regional manners, regional accents and greater distance from the homogenizing influence of mass culture. That was a culture in which emotion was put out there on display — screaming matches between family members who could erupt in chest-poking fury one second and then loyalty until death affection the next.

Biden gave America the full opera Thursday night, and I suspect there will be as many reactions as there are partisan flavors. Democrats will obviously be cheered by his aggressive, impassioned and offensive performance.

It will be the crowning irony of the No Drama Obama campaign that it took a man who exudes more drama than a decade of Latin American soap operas to get Democrats out of their funk.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:16 AM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

We're workers at Bain Capital-owned Sensata, 2520 Walnut St, Freeport, Illinois. We're fighting to save our jobs from being shipped to China by the end of this year. We are calling on Mitt Romney to come to Freeport, IL and we will camp across the street from our plant for as long as it takes!

The Sensata workers from Freeport, Illinois have set up a Tumblr.

Greetings from Bainport, Illinois.
posted by gc at 11:17 AM on October 14, 2012 [4 favorites]

Also: Setting the record straight on the Chinese flag

There seems to be some confusion about whether or not our Sensata plant took down our American flag and replaced it with the Chinese flag. Here is the truth. Sensata took down our American flag on the day they flew in our Chinese replacements that we were forced to train. They put our American flag back up after the Chinese workers left. They never flew the Chinese flag.
posted by gc at 11:35 AM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

gc: They never flew the Chinese flag.

Fair enough. The point still stands though. Taking down the flag in that situation is beyond the pale.

My Dad told me a story about when he was in Saudi Arabia as a kid. Sometime in the early '50s, an American destroyer escort came and docked at Ras Tanura, where my grandfather was a manager for ARAMCO.

The King of Saudi Arabia was to pay a visit to the ship. The King's men came a few hours beforehand to ensure everything was in order. They told the Captain that during the King's visit, the Saudi flag must be flown at the top of the masthead, above the American flag. The Captain says, "I'm not going to to do that." The advisers say, "You don't understand. It's required. The King requires that this be, and so you must do it." Again, the Captain refuses, "This is an American Navy ship, docked at an American port, captained by an American, and I'm not going to fly a Saudi courtesy flag above the American flag."

Eventually, they carry on with the inspection despite the disagreement. At the conclusion the King's men remind the Captain to fly the Saudi flag above the American flag when the King visits in several hours. After they left, the Captain told the XO to recall any men ashore and called the engine room and ordered them to fire the boilers. When everyone had returned, he took up the gangplank, let go the lines, and sailed away, leaving the King to inspect an empty dock when he arrived.

Sadly the name of the vessel and her captain have been lost to the vagaries of a memory 60 years in the past, so I've been unable to find any reference to this story online. Still, that's how an American handles being asked to take down the flag to spare the feelings of foreign dignitaries.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:08 PM on October 14, 2012 [4 favorites]

My take on this is that patriotism is nationalism is tribalism, and the world would be better off without any of it. That said, I hope this causes trouble for the Republicans. For a long while they've been the worst about exploiting this sort of tribalist chest-beating (largely, I assume of those in power, and certainly of someone like Romney, in bad faith), and so it's nice to see a little comeuppance on that front. In any case, I haven't bothered to check, but I assume the Romney campaign is trying to distance him from Bain ("no operational authority" or something like that) and the juicy question is whether they'll have him actively censure Bain for this flag thing and the more serious outsourcing it represents?
posted by nobody at 12:42 PM on October 14, 2012

Romney Supporter Wears 'Put The White Back In The White House' T-Shirt At Ohio Campaign Event .
posted by ericb at 2:04 PM on October 14, 2012

Compare to John McCain.
posted by benito.strauss at 2:12 PM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

Still, that's how an American handles being asked to take down the flag to spare the feelings of foreign dignitaries.

I understand why the captain of an American Navy ship would refuse to fly any flag higher than the American one. It seems odd of him to call it an American port (even if it was built by Aramco for Aramco), and it seems odd to think of the visit of the Saudi King to a ship in a port in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia as that of a "foreign dignitary." Not agreeing with the expectation to fly the Saudi flag uppermost, just commenting on something that struck me.
posted by bardophile at 2:15 PM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

You cannot make this stuff up: Ryan told the crowd in the heavily manufacturing Buckeye State that a Mitt Romney administration would not tolerate China stealing American jobs and property rights -- a topic the VP nominee frequently talks about on the campaign trail.

So Mitt would not tolerate Mitt sending jobs to China? I think I would like to see Mitt get tough with Mitt, take the gloves off, land a few punches.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:18 PM on October 14, 2012 [6 favorites]

Taking the Mitts off?
posted by ceribus peribus at 3:24 PM on October 14, 2012

Reporters barred from covering Paul Ryan exchange with homeless Ohioans

Paul Ryan visited a soup kitchen here Saturday on his way to the airport, but by the time the GOP vice presidential nominee and his family had arrived shortly before noon, the grits, sausage and doughnuts had been served, the hall was empty of patrons and the volunteers appeared to have already cleaned up.

...

Ryan stood at the sink and took some large metal pans that did not appear to be dirty, soaped them up and rinsed them, remarking as the cameras clicked and the TV cameras rolled that he had spent a summer washing dishes when he was younger.

posted by homunculus at 3:34 PM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

Mark Sanford: Obama will ‘throw a lot of spears’ at next debate

The disgraced former Republican governor of South Carolina on Sunday used a racially-coded term in his prediction that the nation’s first African-American president would go on attack and “throw a lot of spears” at Tuesday’s town hall debate.

(For those who have forgotten: Mark Sanford)
posted by Room 641-A at 3:35 PM on October 14, 2012

Paul Ryan visited a soup kitchen here Saturday on his way to the airport, but by the time the GOP vice presidential nominee and his family had arrived shortly before noon, the grits, sausage and doughnuts had been served, the hall was empty of patrons and the volunteers appeared to have already cleaned up.

Oh that's hilarious. That reminds me of the Duggars who are notorious for attending charity events but getting there late, eating all the food, standing around for photo ops and then leaving without actually doing any work.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:51 PM on October 14, 2012

Ed Gillespie went on TV this morning and said Mitt Romney would only reveal the details of his tax plan after he’s sworn into office as President

just yesterday Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation reported that their study showed cutting all the deductions and loopholes would only pay for a 4% cut in rates. 4% vs 20%. Not the same. Read the article because there’s an argument that the JCT might not be using precisely the same assumptions as Romney. But the mammoth difference in those two numbers gives you a sense of the nonsense Romney’s peddling

This is my surprised face.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:02 PM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

vuron: "I think Florida probably won't go blue but Virginia might especially if reverse coattails kick in."

Funny enough, it's the reverse coattails that make me think that Obama still has a chance in Florida. Nelson has been polling significantly ahead of Obama over the last week.

Anyway, looking at the map and the past few days of polling and I'm not seeing how Romney can win the EC. The best I can see for him at the moment is a tie, and that's not even very likely.

ob1quixote: "Still, that's how an American handles being asked to take down the flag to spare the feelings of foreign dignitaries."

Isn't proper protocol to fly the flags at equal height on two separate masts in that situation?
posted by wierdo at 4:09 PM on October 14, 2012

Las Vegas activists try to 'level the field' as casino moguls pump up Super Pacs.

posted by ersatz at 4:09 PM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

I think it's worth pulling the key paragraph from that essay, because it made my jaw drop during the debate too.

Paul Ryan did not say, as John Kennedy had said before him, that faith was faith and public service, public service, each to be honored and kept separate from the other. No, he said instead “I don’t see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith. Our faith informs us in everything we do.” That’s a shocking answer—a mullah’s answer, what those scary Iranian “Ayatollahs” he kept referring to when talking about Iran would say as well. Ryan was rejecting secularism itself, casually insisting, as the Roman Catholic Andrew Sullivan put it, that “the usual necessary distinction between politics and religion, between state and church, cannot and should not exist.”

This can only be surprising if you haven't been paying attention. For Gopnik to call it "shocking" is farcical. Did you go hear Kennedy speak to those Baptist ministers in Houston and then never pay attention to politics ever again until this election? There are, by the way, a few different political systems between the theocracy of Iran and the secularism that Andrew Sullivan has deluded himself into thinking was ever the system in America.
posted by Jahaza at 4:11 PM on October 14, 2012

Obama and Romney make their case to NY Tech Meetup. Guess who fails to mention the internet?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:19 PM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm reading this while watching the Walking Dead marathon.

One is about creatures that are only passably human, with an insatiable drive to feed off of and devour the rest of the population. The other is about zombies.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:19 PM on October 14, 2012 [4 favorites]

Heeeeee

Ryan is the zombie-eyed granny killer for sure.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:23 PM on October 14, 2012

This can only be surprising if you haven't been paying attention.

The surprise isn't that he believes it, it's that he states it so plainly, and in a forum that's not just people who agree with him.
posted by benito.strauss at 4:24 PM on October 14, 2012

Well she certainly did not talk to me: Bay Buchanan: ‘I haven’t talked to a woman’ who didn’t hate Biden at debate

A senior adviser to Mitt Romney on Sunday said that every woman she had talked to was turned off by Vice President Joe Biden’s debate performance because it was “awful and obnoxious.”

During a panel segment on Face the Nation, Bay Buchanan extended a recent conservative line of attack that attempts to paint Biden as a sexist-type personality because he was aggressive and interrupted Republican vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan. [snip]Conservative Fox News host Andrea Tantaros made a similar point in her debate analysis on Friday.

“You know the guy that puts his finger in your face, the guy that sort of dresses you down, who knows more than you do — hey, honey, go make some coffee,” Tantaros said. “That’s how I took it. You know what I thought? If he’s gonna behave that way in public with millions of people watching, how does he behave in private?”

Riiiiiight. Biden is the sexist and Ryan is the pro-woman candidate. Why do I get the feeling you think woman are as dumb as a bag of bricks?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:30 PM on October 14, 2012 [7 favorites]

What a load of old tosh. Biden talk to Raddatz like an equal, Ryan waggled his eyebrows at her while vaguely mansplaining about fighting seasons.
posted by howfar at 4:34 PM on October 14, 2012 [4 favorites]

Bay, Bay, Bay -- you need to broaden your female circle beyond Mary Matalin, Anne Coulter, Sarah Palin, Gretchen Carlson, and the other Fox babes.

If it's finger pointing sexists you object to, I wonder how you've managed to tolerate that gasbag of a brother of yours?
posted by madamjujujive at 4:56 PM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

Let me just borrow her phrasing: Every woman I've talked to thinks Ryan is a little boy with a bunch of numbers he pulled out of his ass and presented to us as gospel truth and during the debate Biden was the adult in the room who laughed at Ryan's whoppers. "Gee, Timmy. You say you saw a leprechaun with a pot of gold? And you will only tell me where the gold is buried if I vote for you to be Vice President? LOL. Wait til I tell the guys at work!"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:06 PM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

Fox News psychiatrist wonders if Biden is suffering from dementia

“I’m not diagnosing him. I haven’t evaluated him, but psychological testing is anybody’s guess what it would be. Not knowing every fact isn’t required to diagnose dementia and I’m not saying he has it. I’m saying you put it on the differential. Impulsivity, that’s part of it, and command of the facts. He said we’d completely leave Afghanistan on a date when we’re going to leave troops there. And so, you’d want his alcohol level.”

“You’re not by any means suggesting he had a drink?” asked co-host Dave Briggs. “Because he’s never had a drink in his life.”

“What I’m saying from a physicianally perceptive [sic], scientifically, you call this the science of personality of interrupting, you put this on the differential diagnosis. You’d have to be just, you know, waiting for a malpractice case, one of you, if you brought me a parent or a grandparent, I’d say let’s to a PET scan, a CAT scan, an MRI and a psychological battery of tests to see if there’s an element of demential. You have to. How could you not?”

Priceless.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:11 PM on October 14, 2012

You have to. How could you not?

Because the request was made by someone who used the word "physicianally".
posted by dirigibleman at 5:16 PM on October 14, 2012 [7 favorites]

All this "oh did Biden come off bad for interrupting?" nonsense is hilarious. It doesn't matter. His job wasn't to "win the debate", although he did that fairly handily. His job was to attack Ryan, to disrupt the opportunities to look into the camera and barefacedly lie. Romney/Ryan have nothing but lies, if you can stop them relying on them, it doesn't matter whether the voters think Biden is the biggest dick since Moby.
posted by howfar at 5:18 PM on October 14, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh sure. If they stop lying now, Fox will just keep playing reruns of the lies they told before. I doubt there will even be a pause in the coverage. This isn't Just-In-Time campaigning, they have a whole WAREHOUSE full of bridges to sell.
posted by Sportbilly at 5:25 PM on October 14, 2012

Now now. Any time Romney breaks a promise he always makes a new one just as good.
posted by howfar at 5:29 PM on October 14, 2012 [7 favorites]

Not knowing every fact isn’t required to diagnose dementia

What.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:29 PM on October 14, 2012 [5 favorites]

The surprise isn't that he believes it, it's that he states it so plainly, and in a forum that's not just people who agree with him.

No, this is not surprising either. It's bog standard social conservatism. Go read Richard John Neuhaus's The Naked Public Square published by Eerdmans in 1984, which is hardly the first book/article/speech of its kind.
posted by Jahaza at 5:34 PM on October 14, 2012

Fox News psychiatrist wonders if Biden is suffering from dementia

So it turns out his name is Keith Ablow, he's co-written a book with Glenn Beck, and here's a juicy bit from his Wikipedia page:

During the 2012 Republican primary, Ablow wrote a column arguing that Newt Gingrich's three marriages actually made him more qualified to be president: "When three women want to sign on for life with a man who is now running for president, I worry more about whether we’ll be clamoring for a third Gingrich term, not whether we’ll want to let him go after one."[11] The column was widely ridiculed, with Rod Dreher of The American Conservative contending that Ablow's argument represented "shamelessness cross[ing] the line from character defect to psychopathology."

posted by nobody at 5:37 PM on October 14, 2012 [9 favorites]

homunculus, here is more on dish-washingate at BagNews. I like some of the comments:

northierthanthou
...and who rolls their sleeves up one time and leaves their watch on to wash dishes?

HaircutterRomney
Mr. Marathon, Mr. 14er, Mr. P90X, Mr. 6% Body Fat, Mr. Catfish Noodler, Mr. Deer Hunter, Mr. Budget Hawk, Mr. Deficit Hawk, Mr. Arithmetic,
now Mr. Dishwasher!!!!
posted by madamjujujive at 5:53 PM on October 14, 2012

Catfish noodler? I missed that story, and I'm guessing I might enjoy it.
posted by msalt at 6:26 PM on October 14, 2012

Fox is like a world class laboratory for idiocy isn't it. They do cutting edge work there.

I'm only half joking. Just when I think they can't say something more stupid, they heroically break through the stupid envelope every time....
posted by Skygazer at 6:26 PM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

No, this is not surprising either.

I don't see much point in us debating what I find surprising. Let's drop this.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:58 PM on October 14, 2012

Andrew Gopnik: Roman Catholic Andrew Sullivan put it, that “the usual necessary distinction between politics and religion, between state and church, cannot and should not exist.”

Jahaza: There are, by the way, a few different political systems between the theocracy of Iran and the secularism that Andrew Sullivan has deluded himself into thinking was ever the system in America.

Thomas Jefferson: Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

James Madison: Practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.

Jahaza, please tell us more about how the separation of church and state is a modern-day liberal fiction. I'd like to know what I have to look forward to under a hypothetical Romney/Ryan administration.
posted by kagredon at 8:27 PM on October 14, 2012

I don't see much point in us debating what I find surprising. Let's drop this.

Fine, but as for what Adam Gopnik finds surprising, he's either lying and doesn't find it surprising, or he's incompetent to do his job as a writer on political issues for a major magazine.

Jahaza, please tell us more about how the separation of church and state is a modern-day liberal fiction.

Considering I said nothing of the sort, I'm not really going to be able to tell you anything more about it.

kagredon, here's what Sullivan wrote, "10.16 pm. Ryan reiterates that secularism - the distinction between politics and religion, between state and church, cannot and should not exist."

The main problem with this is that "politics and religion" is not the same thing as "state and church".

In a rigidly secularist state, something America has never been, religious leaders are prohibited from intervening in politics, religious arguments are shunned in the public square, etc. In a state with separation of church and state, the state doesn't control the government and vice versa. But this doesn't prevent political arguments from influencing religion (e.g. Mormon polygamy) or religious arguments from influencing politics (e.g. blue laws in Massachusetts and their eventual abolition when religious attitudes shifted).

This is inherent in the bit of Thomas Jefferson quoted above. When Jefferson says "believing with you [the baptists] that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God" he (and they) are making a religious argument about a political matter.
posted by Jahaza at 9:32 PM on October 14, 2012 [1 favorite]

bardophile: I understand why the captain of an American Navy ship would refuse to fly any flag higher than the American one. It seems odd of him to call it an American port (even if it was built by Aramco for Aramco), and it seems odd to think of the visit of the Saudi King to a ship in a port in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia as that of a "foreign dignitary." Not agreeing with the expectation to fly the Saudi flag uppermost, just commenting on something that struck me.

Understand that these aren't direct quotes. They're my recollection of a story told to me by my father of something that happened to him 60 years ago. I did call him to clarify some of the details I misremembered.

The Captain would think of it as an American port because it was built by Americans and everyone who lived there was American. They were of course de jure part of the Kingdom, but in most ways that mattered they were extraterritorial. The ARAMCO compounds at that time were little slices of small-town America transplanted to the Saudi desert. There's a documentary called Home—The Aramco Brats' Story that kind of paints the picture. I really should get an SD card full of my Dad's stories while I still have time…

Anyway, the King of Saudi Arabia wouldn't be a foreign dignitary, even inside the compound, but he would be on a U.S. vessel.

wierdo: Isn't proper protocol to fly the flags at equal height on two separate masts in that situation?

Obviously it's slightly more complicated on a military vessel, but in general courtesy flags are flown from the starboard rigging, regardless of whether the national flag of the vessel is flown from the masthead or the stern.


None of this actually matters. I only told the story because what's going on at Sensata right now, and has been happening all across this country for decades, makes me angry. Somebody at that Sensata plant should have told whoever it was that made the decision to remove the U.S. flag precisely where to go and what to do.
posted by ob1quixote at 11:07 PM on October 14, 2012 [3 favorites]

This woman thought Biden was a fucking BAMF and felt vaguely aroused by the end of the debate.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:21 AM on October 15, 2012 [5 favorites]

Somebody at that Sensata plant should have told whoever it was that made the decision to remove the U.S. flag precisely where to go and what to do.

Yup.
posted by bardophile at 3:57 AM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

In a rigidly secularist state, something America has never been, religious leaders are prohibited from intervening in politics, religious arguments are shunned in the public square, etc.

You're conflating the rejection of religious argument in politics with prohibiting political argument by religious people. Secularism does not require that religious leaders do not intervene in politics, it requires that the religious nature of their arguments is ignored, as no special pleading on the basis of religion is allowed. I'm not sure what you mean by "shunned in the public square", which is suggestive of suppression of free speech, something that has nothing to do with secularism.
posted by howfar at 4:06 AM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

In a rigidly secularist state, something America has never been,

Phooey to you, good sir.
posted by JHarris at 4:12 AM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

I think the more realistic path to 270 for Romney is actually the Nevada + Wisconsin path.

I've been kind of annoyed by the widespread pessimism of the past 10 days, but realistically I can't help but notice that even Nate Silver is predicting Colorado (which has more EVs than Nevada) is already trending red.
posted by psoas at 5:22 AM on October 15, 2012

I don't know why I'm Suzy Sunshine today, but ever since seeing the AZ numbers putting Obama ahead, I'm partially convinced that the Latinos are going to bring it home for Obama. If this becomes true I will gladly accept cookies as my rightful gift of predictor of the future. If it's wrong, cookies would also be nice because I may be binge-eating in despair.
posted by angrycat at 5:49 AM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

Anyway, looking at the map and the past few days of polling and I'm not seeing how Romney can win the EC.

He's got a tough row to hoe, but it doesn't seem inconceivable to me. If you give him all the states that 538 has on his side plus those that it lists as tossups, then he has 263 votes, needing 270 to win. He might be able to get them from the following, which are listed as "lean Obama" or "likely Obama" (as opposed to "strong Obama"):

• Nevada, 6 votes, 39% chance Romney wins
• Ohio, 18, 34%
• New Hampshire, 4, 32%
• Wisconsin, 10, 23%
• Maine district 2, 1, 14%

So he needs the tossups plus Ohio, or Wisconsin, or Nevada and New Hampshire, or Nevada and Maine district 2. Additionally, Pennsylvania is not totally out of the realm of possibility (10%), and would win it for him by itself (even giving him some margin of error with the tossups), but I seriously doubt that if he wins Pennsylvania it will be in a way such that he wouldn't have won the EC without it.

I'm not saying any of these possibilities are particularly likely, but again, it doesn't seem inconceivable to me. Or to 538, either, obviously; they give him a better than 1 in 3 shot of winning the EC.
posted by Flunkie at 6:14 AM on October 15, 2012

So.... new thread starting for tomorrow's debate?

What are the topics and formats of the upcoming debates?
posted by Theta States at 6:19 AM on October 15, 2012

Also, I think an EC tie becomes an easy win of the actual presidency for Romney, since Republicans dominate the state delegations of the House of Representatives. So really, Nevada's good by itself; he wouldn't additionally need New Hampshire or Maine district 2.

So, if he gets the tossups and better, any single one of these would win it for him:

• Nevada, 39%
• Ohio, 34%
• Wisconsin, 23%
• Pennsylvania, 10%

posted by Flunkie at 6:45 AM on October 15, 2012

What are the topics and formats of the upcoming debates?

Tomorrow: "Town meeting format including foreign and domestic policy." The moderator is Candy Crowley (CNN Chief Political Correspondent).

Next Monday: "The format for the debate will be identical to the first presidential debate and will focus on foreign policy." The moderator is Bob Schieffer (Host of Face the Nation on CBS).

Both debates are 9:00-10:30 p.m. Eastern Time.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:59 AM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Former SC governor Mark Sanford: Obama to "throw a lot of spears" at next debate

Man, my poor dog's ears have been hurting very badly in recent months, I wonder why that is.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:38 AM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

The odds are currently at about 60% that we will know who is President on Election Night before Wheel of Fortune even comes on.

I would love to be optimistic, but that's before the polls even close on the East Coast.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:00 AM on October 15, 2012

What a cornucopia of "David Brent moment" Fremdschämen Romney's "little-people*-get-to-interact-with-me(!)-me(!)-me(!)-town hall empathy." is destined to produce.


*You know, the ones who have the honor of being allowed to "grab his butt" and serve him those (crap) cookies "from the local 7-11" and such things.


Apologies for the repeat, I wasn't sure what thread to put this in...

Plus I just want people to use the terms Fremdschämen or David Brent Moment, and begin a massive excellent meme with which to destroy this egregious despicable Mitts the Romschämen. Let's make that happen okay?? Thx.


^ ^
posted by Skygazer at 9:14 AM on October 15, 2012

Since state results aren't really independent of national results, we'll know who won as soon as the east coast is done, most likely. You'll be able to extrapolate all the rest of the states based on how the east coast voted. The networks will of course try to extend the drama, of course.
posted by empath at 9:15 AM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Don't listen to him everyone, the race is neck and neck, every day! Your very soul hangs in the balance based on how you vote!

You feel that, just now?! The polls just switched the other way by .04%, all is lost!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:19 AM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

My Fox punditry predictions:
Romney sneaks in a win: A total repudiation of Obama's presidency.
Obama wins, <290 EV: An embarrassing decline in electorial votes, showing a country upset at Obama's disastrous policies. Strong focus on voter fraud.
Obama wins, 290-300: George Soros and unions bought the election, combined with massive voter fraud.
Obama wins, 300+: Any decline in EV number highlighted as repudiation of Obama's disastrous policies, Romney campaign was poinoned by incompetence. Liberal propaganda at schools blamed.
posted by Theta States at 9:19 AM on October 15, 2012 [10 favorites]

Kaiser Foundation study: Privatized Medicare would raise premiums for 59% of seniors at least $200 a month
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:21 AM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

You can read the actual KFF report here.
posted by rtha at 9:26 AM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

I listened to this in the car driving to Austin Thursday, and did read a few articles about it, but didn't brave this thread til this morning (it has since consumed 2 of my work hours, sorry employer). What's incredible to me is the "disrespectfulness" didn't come through at all over the audio. For all the goofy expressions, eye-rolls and laughs that Biden was apparently doing all night long, all that I got from the audio was the standard debate tropes of complaining about not getting enough time and interrupting from both sides. Except that every time Biden interrupted, it felt like it was in sync with me screaming at the radio that Ryan's latest statement was flatly untrue.

I'm tempted to go watch it on youtube to figure out what Biden was visually doing to be so "disrespectful", but I think I'd rather imagine things like sneaking him the bird while the camera was on him because that's funnier.
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:30 AM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

It just never stops, does it?
posted by bardophile at 9:46 AM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

I'm tempted to go watch it on youtube to figure out what Biden was visually doing to be so "disrespectful"

Make no mistake, Biden was a bit off-putting and it would have been great if he had been able to dial it down by 20-30%. But ultimately, it's just a convenient excuse for some people to ignore what he was actually saying, which had a lot of substance and intelligence to it.

In a different time, I would be annoyed with Biden, thinking he turned off potential votes. But things are so polarized now that it doesn't matter and it was good to see a Democrat essentially saying "This is bullshit, stop lying you goddamn sack of shit."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:57 AM on October 15, 2012 [7 favorites]

Pennsylvania is not totally out of the realm of possibility

It really, really is.

As I said, 538 says there's a 10% chance. If you want to think that's "totally out of the realm of possibility", or that 538 doesn't really know what it's talking about, go for it, I guess.

At this point if Romney wins Pennsylvania, short of unprecedented and incalculable voter fraud he'll have gained a sweeping lead in the Rust Belt so large he will absolutely carry Ohio with it and the election.

1. Of course.
2. That's unrelated to whether or not Pennsylvania is "totally out of the realm of possibility".
3. I SAID THE SAME THING IN THE VERY SENTENCE WHICH YOU LESS-THAN-HALF-QUOTED. Come on.

posted by Flunkie at 10:00 AM on October 15, 2012

Man, my poor dog's ears have been hurting very badly in recent months, I wonder why that is.

That's not a dogwhistle so much as it was a diesel-powered air-horn. That wasn't even close to pretending.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:12 AM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

Obama Leads Among Early Voters: Poll.

This just cropped up on Twitter: "@MichelleObama Hey, @BarackObama, I just dropped my absentee ballot in the mail – I couldn’t wait for Election Day! Love you! –mo"

They're certainly pushing early voting hard. As well they should.
posted by howfar at 10:22 AM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

Also, the embassies (at least in the UAE and Pakistan) have made a much more concerted effort to get people registered for absentee ballots, to arrange for write-in votes, to remind people that they can do these things ("Just come in, we'll even mail them for you."), than I can remember from previous elections.
posted by bardophile at 10:32 AM on October 15, 2012

it was good to see a Democrat essentially saying "This is bullshit, stop lying you goddamn sack of shit."

I agree. One of the biggest critiques of Democrats is that they so often miss the chance to set the frame. Biden didn't.
posted by Miko at 10:34 AM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

But things are so polarized now that it doesn't matter and it was good to see a Democrat essentially saying "This is bullshit, stop lying you goddamn sack of shit."

On further thought, I'm not happy with this sentence and think it should have been written like this:
"But things are so polarized now that it doesn't matter and it was good to see a Democrat essentially saying "This is bullshit, stop lying, you sadly inexperienced sack of shit."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:37 AM on October 15, 2012

This clip of Romney interacting with real live black people yt is one of the more amazing things I've ever seen.

Oh boy. And he got handshake-dissed.
posted by Miko at 10:37 AM on October 15, 2012

...by a little girl.
posted by Miko at 10:38 AM on October 15, 2012

What clip of Romney interacting with real live black people?

Is it the "Who let the dogs out?" clip, or something else?
posted by Flunkie at 10:41 AM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh dear lord that poor sad awkward man.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:47 AM on October 15, 2012

Oh gosh. thanks Greg Nog. I did get my Romney windows confused. MultiMitt!
posted by Miko at 10:49 AM on October 15, 2012

What's Mitt's favorite keyboard shortcut? Shift Tab!

Yes, just made it up. Blame Miko. I'll be going now...
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:53 AM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

The Politerati Poll

What does Washington’s political elite really think? Over the past two weeks, we surveyed 74 Beltway insiders—37 Democrats, 37 Republicans—on the election, the state of politics, and what comes next. We wanted honesty, so we offered to keep their answers anonymous (in some cases, they allowed us to quote them). Among the respondents: Romney adviser Eric Fehrnstrom and Obama adman Jim Margolis; Kerry right-hand Bob Shrum and McCain consigliere Mark Salter; former senators Bob Bennett (R-Utah) and Tom Daschle (D-N.D.). On Capitol Hill we found a lot of strong opinions—and even, occasionally, a little consensus.

Lots of interesting numbers in infographic form. 82% think Obama will win, 18% think Romney will win.
posted by syzygy at 10:57 AM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

2012 Polls Continue To Show Close Race Nationwide, Obama Edge In Battleground States.
posted by ericb at 11:12 AM on October 15, 2012

Mitt Romney: The Great Deformer -- "Is Romney really a job creator? Ronald Reagan’s budget director, David Stockman, takes a scalpel to the claims."
posted by ericb at 11:17 AM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

Rosie Perez Hits Mitt Romney On Latino Remarks.
posted by ericb at 11:19 AM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

2012 Polls Continue To Show Close Race Nationwide, Obama Edge In Battleground States.

"The latest Washington Post/ABC News survey shows Obama leading Romney among likely voters by a 49 to 46 percent margin that ABC said fell "within the survey's margin of error" and the Post described as a "virtual dead heat."

A 3% advantage in a poll with a 3.5% margin of error does not represent a "virtual dead heat", it means that there is a 50% chance that Obama leads by between 3% and 6.5%, and only a very small chance that the result is tied. "Margin of error" does not mean "anywhere within this range is equally likely". The race is quite tight and interesting enough without newspapers creating fake tension by confusing people.
posted by howfar at 11:21 AM on October 15, 2012 [7 favorites]

Paul Ryan Is A 'Jackass,' Says Tom Morello.
posted by ericb at 11:22 AM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

Jackasses of America condemn Morello for 'hate speech'.
posted by howfar at 11:25 AM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

Make no mistake, Biden was a bit off-putting and it would have been great if he had been able to dial it down by 20-30%. But ultimately, it's just a convenient excuse for some people to ignore what he was actually saying, which had a lot of substance and intelligence to it.

Sorry, it's not really clear but by putting disrespectful in quotes I was trying to acknowledge that I didn't think he was actually being disrespectful. I agree with everything you said.
posted by DynamiteToast at 11:31 AM on October 15, 2012

Howfar: A 3% advantage in a poll with a 3.5% margin of error does not represent a "virtual dead heat", it means that there is a 50% chance that Obama leads by between 3% and 6.5%, and only a very small chance that the result is tied. "Margin of error" does not mean "anywhere within this range is equally likely".

I'd somehow lapsed into thinking, the bold above, is what margin of error meant. Thanks for the reminder of how that actually works.

The other thing is that poll maybe is a harbinger that Romney's little debate bounce is on the downside of it's curve and not a new plateau. But it's going to take the rest of this week and Gallup getting it's momentum registering aggregate number to be sampling more of this week, and less of last week, as well as a few other polls, before I'm happy the ROM-TOOL is Borking again.

Of course by that point, and the aggregate numbers at "538" and RealClearPolitics.com" and "CabPolitical" (those are the ones I focus on), will also have whatever happens tomorrow also in the numbers.

And I say after tomorrow nights debate those poll numbers are going to literally be swimming in enough Romney Fremdschämen to put a whole Volkswagen factory workforce in Bremen or Frankfurt or Baden Baden drinking themselves silly for a week.

In the hands of a world class David Brentian like Willard Romney, Fremdschämen, is a Weapon of Mass Dumbfoundedness.
posted by Skygazer at 11:46 AM on October 15, 2012

Sorry, it's not really clear but by putting disrespectful in quotes I was trying to acknowledge that I didn't think he was actually being disrespectful.

I know, just wanted to write a sentence calling Paul Ryan a 'lying sack of shit'.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:49 AM on October 15, 2012 [10 favorites]

It feels good, doesn't it?
posted by benito.strauss at 11:55 AM on October 15, 2012

WaPo reports on its poll with ABC:

Among the likely voters supporting Romney, 62 percent now do so intensely, exactly double the number who were eagerly lined up behind Republican nominee John McCain at this stage in the campaign four years ago.

Is this because the Palin interviews had happened at this point four years ago, and the recklessness of McCain's VP pick had become apparent by then? Or is it more that anti-Obama/anti-incumbent fervor is taking hold now? I'm trying to figure out how on earth Romney could have double the enthusiastic support that McCain did.
posted by torticat at 12:09 PM on October 15, 2012

Flunkie: "I'm not saying any of these possibilities are particularly likely, but again, it doesn't seem inconceivable to me. Or to 538, either, obviously; they give him a better than 1 in 3 shot of winning the EC."

I just don't see it barring another dismal debate performance. Obama has consistently led Ohio by a large enough margin to say he's likely been in the lead the whole time. I look at the state polls, look at the map, and see only the barest of outside chances for Romney. He's got a much better chance for the EV tie in my view.

That said, I haven't looked at any of today's polling yet aside from the usual check of the RAND poll before bed, which is once again showing Obama with a just outside the margin of error lead, again on the back of further declines in Romney voter enthusiasm. (Obama still trails in that respect, but nut as much as before)
posted by wierdo at 12:12 PM on October 15, 2012

humanfont: "Watch for the moment when Biden pulls out the pink sheet for his beloved IROC-Z and challenge Ryan to a drag. Paul Ryan claims he can do a 12 sec quarter mile in his mom's Camrey. This should be awesome."

I missed the boat on this one. A Camry V6 probably can almost do a 12 second quarter mile. A V6 RAV4 will run the quarter mile in a bit over 13 seconds bone stock. The Camry is lighter and more aerodynamic. Just sayin.
posted by wierdo at 12:15 PM on October 15, 2012

wierdo: "A Camry V6 probably can almost do a 12 second quarter mile. A V6 RAV4 will run the quarter mile in a bit over 13 seconds bone stock. "

Are you playing Ryan here? Cause if you're serious all I have is this: LOL WUT?
posted by Big_B at 12:20 PM on October 15, 2012

Koch brothers to workers: Vote for Romney or 'suffer the consequences'.
posted by ericb at 12:20 PM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

Mitt Camp: Media Wants Obama Comeback -- "Romney aides fret that a perceived victory for the president may be inevitable."
posted by ericb at 12:21 PM on October 15, 2012

torticat: I'm trying to figure out how on earth Romney could have double the enthusiastic support that McCain did.

A timeline I think has probably happened more often than people give it credit*:

1) Obama gets elected.
2) The ignorant, non-voting, racist crowd realizes Obama is actually a black person and not a really, really tan white guy AND see him on TeeVee as the President of the United States of Awesome.
3) The ignorant, non-voting, racist crowd becomes the ignorant, voraciously voting, 'of course I'm Republican' crowd and vows never to let this happen again.
4) The mildly racist-even-though-they-themselves-don't-know-it, pseudo-informed crowd begins their self-fulfilling and/or "fair and balanced" based assessment on the first black president we have as a nation.
5) Said assessment by that population is not positive. (Who would have thought?) Their previous political leanings are skewed, more or less, to an activity level higher than previously exhibited.
6) Cue election polls.

Blah blah, something something, economic, yak yak, spending, budget, OMG, deficit, snore.

*Yes, I'm originally from Alabama.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:22 PM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Big_B: "Are you playing Ryan here? Cause if you're serious all I have is this: LOL WUT?"

You're right, it runs 13s with a cold air intake. ;)
posted by wierdo at 12:29 PM on October 15, 2012

wierdo:You're right, it runs 13s with a cold air intake. ;)"

Well yeah duh! Especially with a K&N!

/not awake yet, missed context, needed bookmark comment, apologies
posted by Big_B at 12:48 PM on October 15, 2012

am tweeting that Stockman article as am reading it.

it's shocking to see the evil witch doctor of trickle down economics come out swinging hard against vulture capitalist Romney. a complete tearing down of Bain while humble-bragging about having dabbled in vulture capitalism as well. so this isn't from a theorist but from a self-proclaimed asshole capitalist and he let's the punches roll in each paragraph with data on how Bain sucked away money from their LBOs.

the article is devastating.
posted by liza at 1:56 PM on October 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

Sorry, the 2012 Camry SEV6 is 0-60 in under 7 seconds. A RAV4 is just a notch faster, but not so's you'd notice. Car guys are at this very moment a bit agog at the 2012 Camry's acceleration stats, which appear to place it in the category of pocket rocket (comparable to 3Speed and WRX).

But yeah, I would love to see Biden throw down some with "car guy" Mitt Romney. Mitt can probably tell you what every level of luxury trim costs on a Lincoln Navigator. But I will bet he has never had grease under his fingernails.
posted by spitbull at 2:35 PM on October 15, 2012

Sorry, Cadillac Escalade.
posted by spitbull at 2:36 PM on October 15, 2012

It seems that hay is being made of the USAToday/Gallup poll today. You should note that the survey period was 10/5-11, so it's not surprising it looks bad relative to polls that are being released in a more timely manner. Also, the reporting methodology of mushing together all the swing states is essentially useless. It doesn't matter one whit if Romney wins Florida or New Hampshire 99-1 if he fails to run the table in the swing states.
posted by wierdo at 3:04 PM on October 15, 2012

homunculus, here is more on dish-washingate at BagNews.

And here's more: Charity president unhappy about Paul Ryan soup kitchen ‘photo op’
posted by homunculus at 3:12 PM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

here is more on dish-washingate

'Dishwatergate', surely?
posted by howfar at 3:13 PM on October 15, 2012 [6 favorites]

Mitchell & Webb - Watergategate
posted by howfar at 3:18 PM on October 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

Mitt Romney’s secret sauce — the thing that makes him “electable,” in the eyes of a Republican Party that’s been repudiated in the minds of millions — is his unprecedented willingness to toss aside any belief or stand he’s ever taken.

In 2011, the liberal SuperPAC Priorities USA conducted focus groups about the Paul Ryan budget. When they were told the GOP’s plans for gutting Medicare, slashing Medicaid and education while cutting taxes for the rich again, the respondents simply refused to believe any politician would do such a thing. It’s that disbelief that makes Romney the perfect GOP candidate in 2012.

If you’ve been paying any attention to the liberals this year, “Mitt’s Mendacity” has been a constant theme. MSNBC’s Steve Benen carefully chronicles Mitt’s lies weekly, and whenever Romney repeats one of his widely debunked lies — like “the President has not signed one new trade agreement” (in fact, he’s signed three) — you can practically hear the fact checkers and liberal bloggers firing up their MacBooks.

But every time the media repeats the meme that “Mitt lies,” what they’re also suggesting is that you don’t have to believe he’ll do what he says [snip] He won’t really slash tax rates 20%, paying for that and a huge military spending hike by revoking unspecified deductions that don’t, can’t, add up.

He won’t really appoint justices who will overturn Roe v. Wade.

He won’t really deregulate Wall Street, though that’s been part of his platform since the start of the race.

He won’t really drop coverage for pre-existing conditions.

Get it, swing voters? He’s not sure what he actually believes, and he’ll probably agree with you — eventually.

You have to admit it's a pretty good strategy. It only works because Fox News laid the groundwork by making news coverage a partisan thing rather than a truth thing, so that the voting populace is now confused by noise. I seriously do not think this Chameleon Candidate plan would have worked back in the days of Edward R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite because back then certain news sources were deemed credible and trustworthy no matter what political beliefs you held.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:19 PM on October 15, 2012 [5 favorites]

Romney is accused by his father’s longtime aide of shifting political positions in “erratic and startling ways”

Walter De Vries, who worked for the senior Mr. Romney throughout the 1960s, wrote that Mitt Romney’s bid for the White House was “a far cry from the kind of campaign and conduct, as a public servant, I saw during the seven years I worked in George Romney’s campaigns and served him as governor.”

“While it seems that Mitt would say and do anything to close a deal – or an election,” he wrote, “George Romney’s strength as a politician and public officeholder was his ability and determination to develop and hold consistent policy positions over his life.”

"Erratic and startling ways." I love it. Sums up the Chameleon Candidate pretty well. I wonder what happens when you put him on a background of plaid?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:47 PM on October 15, 2012 [9 favorites]

howfar: "Mitchell & Webb - Watergategate "

Thanks. There's never not a good time to watch this.
posted by Room 641-A at 3:58 PM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Enter Now to Win a Chinese-Made Guitar Signed By Kid Rock and Paul Ryan!

The Romney campaign is giving away an electric guitar signed by Paul Ryan and Kid Rock. Meg at Cognitive Dissonance noticed that the guitar looks like an Epiphone model. Stranger music expert Dave Segal independently came to the conclusion that it's an Epiphone guitar based on the shape of the "head stock," which is apparently a thing. Why does this matter? As Cognitive Dissonance notes, Epiphone guitars are made in China

Did anyone see that Daily Show bit last week where they interviewed a guy who makes campaign swag? He said when you are giving out baseball caps and T-shirts, you have to be really careful about making sure they are "Made in America" because otherwise it will come back to bite you in the ass (my paraphrasing...duh.) So I guess someone in Romney's campaign fucked up. I mean, seriously? They could not find a goddamn "Made in America" guitar?!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:16 PM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

It only works because Fox News laid the groundwork by making news coverage a partisan thing rather than a truth thing, so that the voting populace is now confused by noise.

I'm convinced Fox News was an intentional gambit by the right-wing moneyed would-be monarchs to create this very situation. If you have a political philosophy that's anathema to the vast majority of American voters, then your best bet is to make sure the voters are not paying attention to your politics and are instead making the decision based solely on superficialities. Then you can find a Guy Smiley to run and babble meaninglessly while the voters note how "presidential" he looks.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:24 PM on October 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

Mental Whip: Perhaps evidence for your belief (warning: Gawker Media link).
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:27 PM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

I've started seeing anti-Obama ads here in PA (after a month or more of nothing) that have the look and feel of those mesothelioma or bad drug ads (you know, text heavy with a fast-talking narrator telling you to call some number). Which is actually how I think about Romney, actually.

(I've also been polled twice. Heyo!)
posted by dirigibleman at 4:50 PM on October 15, 2012

You have to admit it's a pretty good strategy.

Yeah, if you want to call a tactic that makes it impossible to really know what kind of person we're electing a "pretty good strategy." It might be good for winning, but not the health of our country. That's what I call shortsighted.
posted by JHarris at 5:10 PM on October 15, 2012

Then you can find a Guy Smiley to run and babble meaninglessly while the voters note how "presidential" he looks.

One of the best things Colbert did was affix that muppet's face indelibly upon the head of Mitt Romney.
posted by JHarris at 5:20 PM on October 15, 2012

dirigibleman: (I've also been polled twice. Heyo!)

Aw, jealous! I want to get polled so badly. I have OPINIONS on ISSUES. But, despite living in VA, I have a DC area code so no dinnertime phone calls from the fine folks at Rasmussen or wherever for me.
posted by troika at 5:23 PM on October 15, 2012

oh God, each time I leave this thread, I return with this certainty that the insanity has stopped and Romney has gone back to being as appealing to road kill to the masses.

So, I guess not, huh?
posted by angrycat at 5:36 PM on October 15, 2012

Then you can find a Guy Smiley to run and babble meaninglessly while the voters note how "presidential" he looks.

Possibly my biggest pet peeve out of all the ridiculous presidential mythology. Square jawed white guy with a good head of hair is only presidential in the movies. The closest we've come in the past hundred years to that is Kennedy and Reagan barely, in a grandpa sort of way, (and he was a movie star anyway so...) and that's about it. Bushes 1 and 2, Carter, Nixon, LBJ, Eisenhower, FDR...Not a conventionally handsome president in the whole bunch. Pretty much the opposite of that ideal seems to be the idea look for a pres. And yet the myth endures.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:43 PM on October 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

You know, I just read a post on Daily Kos to the effect that Romney's paying more for ad space because of the way the ads are being purchased. I have no way of knowing how accurate that is, or if there's something the article is missing.

However, if true that reinforces a feeling that has been growing inside myself since the campaign began regarding Romney. He has held out his experience in the business world as a qualification for his being President. And without really considering, I assumed that he would at least run a good campaign. He ran Bain & the Olympics after all.

But he has not run a good campaign. No need to spell it out; I think we all recognize that. His sole good moment has been the debate. Even after the debate, his campaign has been rather bumbling in my opinion That has been papered over by the media frenzy surrounding the debate, but I think it's true. It has surprised me until I watched Romney and thought about it. The debate is the final piece.

Despite his rationale & the CW, I feel he is not a good businessman the way most think of it. However, he is a superb salesperson. That's how he made his millions, not running businesses but selling. He's the loan officer where you get yo the closing table and the deal is completely different than what you were sold, the car salesman where the car breaks down after 6 months, the jewelry salesman that convinces you to buy a diamond outside you budget-- except writ large and better than and better than any salesperson you've been likely to run into. I suspect that most of you are saying "duh!" but most of the populace probably doesn't see it. Personally, I was wondering whether I was just biased, but events have made me sure this is true.
posted by JKevinKing at 5:58 PM on October 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

JKevinKing, you should read this takedown of Romney the "successful business man" by David Stockman. brutal.
posted by liza at 6:48 PM on October 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

Chris Stevens' Death In Libya Shouldn't Be Politicized, Father Says.

Benghazi madness: The latest right-wing conspiracy porn features a return of 2008 Obama-Clinton tensions played out over Libya
posted by homunculus at 7:25 PM on October 15, 2012

Sec. of State Clinton: "I take responsibility."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:21 PM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Jon Stewart Rips Fox’s Outraged, Sore-Loser Response To Vice Presidential Debate
posted by homunculus at 8:55 PM on October 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

Sec. of State Clinton: "I take responsibility."

I love how in this era public figures think saying those words should absolve them of it. So her negligence contributed to the deaths of officals, she tried to sweep it under the rug by endorsing a lie that appealed to racism, and she thinks she can dribble some drivel about "accepting responsibility and considering our obligations moving forward" and she'll never have to experience a single consequence.

And of course she won't. Which makes this all the more infuriating. I'd almost forgotten why I hate neoliberals so much.
posted by clarknova at 9:04 PM on October 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Aw, jealous! I want to get polled so badly

Me too. (sigh)
Also it would be nice if someone asked my opinion of the elections sometime.
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 10:14 PM on October 15, 2012 [5 favorites]

she'll never have to experience a single consequence.

And of course she won't. Which makes this all the more infuriating. I'd almost forgotten why I hate neoliberals so much.

As opposed to all the neo-cons who take responsibility for the consequences of their actions???????
posted by bardophile at 12:19 AM on October 16, 2012 [7 favorites]

she'll never have to experience a single consequence.

Would you like her to commit hari-kiri? Receive waterboarding?

The attack on Benhazi was a wild outlier that no one predicted. Certainly not the Republicans who cut funding for embassy and consulate security.
posted by msalt at 12:29 AM on October 16, 2012 [5 favorites]

Liveblogging the Biden/Ryan Debate Without Sound
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:43 AM on October 16, 2012

So, I guess not, huh?

If you look at a good poll aggregator like 538, you can clearly see Biden's Goal Line Stand (also known as the Biden Stop), where Romney's momentum was broken and turned back.

It's up to Obama to keep things moving his way at tonight's debate.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:17 AM on October 16, 2012

538 puts a recount possibility in the ten percent range.
/runs away, crying
posted by angrycat at 4:46 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

Paul Ryan makes promises to Focus on the Family
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:13 AM on October 16, 2012

I feel bad for the President. He can't be too angry, or the people who buy into the narrative about angry black men will go OMG SCARY. But he can't be too calm, or everyone else will go OMG WEAK.

I'm thinking he needs to bring Luther with him. Romney can bring his handkerchief so it is fair.

Also, if they're at that table tonight I will know it's because they're not letting Mitt pull the same trick twice. Maybe he'll go for the creepy disembodied voice trick like he did in 2008.
posted by winna at 5:51 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

Daily Show pointed out that Biden did everything except outright call Ryan's statements lies, including using synonyms and colloquial euphamisms. I wouldn't doubt that it's a provision of the debate's rules that respondants could not outright call the opponent a liar, or what he's saying lies, as far as using those words goes. News clips mentioned that the later presidential debates would be held by stricter rules to make it harder to say even those things, probably because one side or the other is trying to reduce the chance of a damaging sound bite or meme arising.

If this is true, and it probably is:
1. We can look forward to more verbal oatmeal.
2. It plays right into the hands of the professional bullshitters on the Republican side, since it makes it difficult for Obama to outright challenge anything Romney says.

It also increases the importance of after-debate campaign ads to debunk what opponents say, but the Romney camp would have a large advantage there too as they can afford to run more.
posted by JHarris at 6:21 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

You can read the memorandum of understanding between both campaigns for 2012 here. There is nothing in it prohibiting one of the candidates to call the other a liar. They are not allowed to ask the other candidate a direct question and ask the other to join in any kind of pledge. But apparently the debate coaches and messaging gurus have determined that using the terms "lie" and "liar" are not beneficial and so we are treated to the dance of the euphemisms.

Interestingly, the moderator may not ask the candidates for a show of hands, which happened during the Republican primary. Probably not enough chance to hedge and obfuscate in the answer or the danger of a powerful visual that can be used in ads later.
posted by ltl at 6:45 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

show of hands = yes/no question, right? makes sense that the campaigns would want to avoid that.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 6:50 AM on October 16, 2012

so this town hall is made up of undecided voters, right? Wait, NO because The Whelk is going. Or maybe The Whelk is undecided. Mr. Whelk, can you post to metafilter during the debate or are all your electronics confiscated?
posted by angrycat at 6:51 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

remember rudy's campaign in '08 where he ignored all the earliest primaries and bet the whole bank on florida, by which point the narrative was firmly established without him, thank you very much? mitt's strategy is similar, it seems - forfeit the early narrative for a grand slam in the home stretch (ably assisted by obama's shitty first debate). if i recall, obama's strategy definitely was to define mitt early - tax returns, for example - when was that, june?!?

anyway, my problem with that strategy is that it reaks too much of playing chicken, of holding out until just the right time and then lowering the boom - is that a republican thing? maybe it's good business, maybe even good electioneering - but good gods does it seem like a horrible strategy for a head of state. it bit ol'rudy in the ass. let's hope mitt fares just as well.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 6:59 AM on October 16, 2012

So; who's going to create a fabulous new post for the debates tonight. This thread is already breaking on my phone, the first thread became unmanageable a while back...so we need a new one. Unfortunately, I find myself completely blank about how to frame it.
posted by dejah420 at 7:00 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

Mr. Whelk, can you post to metafilter during the debate or are all your electronics confiscated?

Congressman Whelk, surely?
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:02 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

considering that I am going home in a police car I assume I wont be able to say or do anything.
posted by The Whelk at 7:08 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Wait, this is true? The Whelk, you'll be in attendance?
posted by Miko at 7:11 AM on October 16, 2012

The Whelk just blew his cover as a federal inmate.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:11 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

and i will be in the "overfill" room with Other People.
posted by The Whelk at 7:11 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Is that where Ed Schultz is?!?!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:15 AM on October 16, 2012

Whoa, I may need to withdraw my earlier Embassy attack comments even more than I already have. I have no idea what level of skepticism to apply to this new NYTimes article saying that the attack, while indeed not preceded by a protest, was spontaneous and was in response to the youtube video (9/11 anniversary notwithstanding). It looks like they interviewed locals.
posted by nobody at 7:25 AM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]

cross-posting, for your viewing pleasure:

President Clinton Explains Mitt Romney's $5 Trillion Tax Cut
posted by liza at 7:52 AM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]

Oh dear, someone needs to tell Romney his plan skews to the benefit of the wealthy. Hopefully he'll get that hammered down before the debate so that he can present his policies honestly to the American people, before the election.
posted by fleacircus at 9:21 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

President Clinton Explains Mitt Romney's $5 Trillion Tax Cut

Pet peeve #392 here: changes in marginal rates accompanied by changes in exemptions and credits to make them revenue neutral (if such a thing were even possible under Romney's fantasy scenario) are not "Tax Cuts", they are merely shifting the tax burden, in this case from the wealthy to the middle class. The media and even Democratic and progressive pundits keep using this "tax cut" nomenclature, which only serves to bolster in the minds of the low information voter that if they vote for Romney, they will get a "tax cut" of some kind.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:42 AM on October 16, 2012

DUDE! republicans want to make the Bush tax cuts permanent. just because the tax cuts already exist it doesnt mean they arent tax cuts --especially when the were supposed to expire 2 years ago *smh*
posted by liza at 9:54 AM on October 16, 2012

romneytaxplan.com
posted by brundlefly at 10:01 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Romney Tax Plan. Enjoy!
posted by liza at 10:07 AM on October 16, 2012

gah! sorry i didn't preview.
posted by liza at 10:08 AM on October 16, 2012

It's still broken :(
posted by Pudhoho at 10:10 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Fox are now going after Soledad O'Brien in their (scary all caps) BIAS ALERTS
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:33 AM on October 16, 2012

The idea of FOX putting out BIAS ALERTS just explodes my brain with hilarity and frustration.
posted by Theta States at 10:35 AM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

The idea of FOX putting out BIAS ALERTS just explodes my brain with hilarity and frustration.

Oh wait, what was that GOP strategy of "accuse your opponents of having your weaknesses"?
posted by Theta States at 10:39 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

nobody: "I have no idea what level of skepticism to apply to this new NYTimes article saying that the attack, while indeed not preceded by a protest, was spontaneous and was in response to the youtube video (9/11 anniversary notwithstanding). It looks like they interviewed locals."

I would love this new information to change the narrative that there was some sort of cover-up, but said narrative is already established fact in the village media, with prominent Democrats including Hillary Clinton, true to form, apologizing before all of the facts are known (see also Sherrod, Shirley.) This negates any chance that these new accounts might have had to change the MSM view that something untoward happened in the administration's handling of the Benghazi aftermath.

This is precisely why we lefties can't have nice things. I would have thought of Hillary as someone who would have had more confidence in the initial assessments and enough political savvy not to pre-emptively apologize, which makes me wonder if there wasn't some pressure from above her pay grade to fall on her sword as a futile attempt to quiet the pitchfork-wielding wingnuts at a critical juncture in the campaign season.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:40 AM on October 16, 2012

tonycpsu: I would have thought of Hillary as someone who would have had more confidence in the initial assessments and enough political savvy not to pre-emptively apologize

Well, she took responsibility for the security situation in Benghazi, but didn't apologize for anything happening after the fact. I pretty much think someone had to apologize for the security situation, since it seems that Chris Stevens, as well as others on the ground in Libya, had requested more security.

But there's been no admission of wrongdoing or covering up or any apology related to anything like that. I hope the NY Times info is true, and I hope it will at least calm the curiosity of the less partisan members in the middle.
posted by syzygy at 10:46 AM on October 16, 2012

syzygy: " Well, she took responsibility for the security situation in Benghazi, but didn't apologize for anything happening after the fact. I pretty much think someone had to apologize for the security situation, since it seems that Chris Stevens, as well as others on the ground in Libya, had requested more security."

Fair enough, but the administration and Democrats in congress tried to get $300 million more for embassy security, but were denied by the intransigent GOP congressional majority. It's not a given that the extra appropriation saves the lives of the four Benghazi victims, but I wouldn't be so quick to apologize for their deaths if I wasn't given the tools to defend them.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:54 AM on October 16, 2012

tonycpsu: I wouldn't be so quick to apologize for their deaths if I wasn't given the tools to defend them.

You and I are in 100% agreement here. I don't think Clinton actually apologized. I think she made a statement that she is responsible for security in diplomatic missions, including those in Libya. Sort of a 'the buck stops here' statement.

I think she's right that it's her responsibility, as Secretary of State. I doubt that she made the actual decisions about security in Libya, but those decisions were made in her department.

Anyway, I don't know whether the general public will see the nuanced difference between declaring that you're responsible for security and outright apologizing for the deaths. And I definitely think the administration should continue to point out that the Republicans cut the State Department's security budget, even in the face of Clinton warning them that such cuts would 'endanger national security.'

From the linked article:

A Boehner spokesperson reiterated House Republicans' commitment to reducing spending and expressed confidence that members of the military and civilians working abroad will have the resources necessary to do their jobs.

So yeah, the Dems should hit them on that, and Hillary says security is her responsibility. Hopefully the angle the NY Times is reporting will check out, and we can put the idea of a cover-up to bed. An idea that I always found pretty preposterous, anyway, since I couldn't come up with a good motive to try to cover things up.
posted by syzygy at 11:05 AM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

Fox are now going after Soledad O'Brien in their (scary all caps) BIAS ALERTS

Is it too much to hope for that, if Fox goes after anchors and reporters on other networks personally, those networks' news departments get angry at the singling out of their people and start doing some serious investigative reporting on the good folks at Fox News? There's actual meat on the bone there for some stories about bias and cronyism and all that fun stuff, but none of their competitors will touch it with a ten foot pole, outside of a few people (Maddow, O'Brien) who make their opinions known.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:06 PM on October 16, 2012 [3 favorites]

The House GOP has almost hit the $1.5 million cap defending DOMA of their current contract.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:20 PM on October 16, 2012

Good news on the early voting front from the SCOTUS.
posted by annsunny at 1:12 PM on October 16, 2012

Correction: The Ohio Supreme court, not SCOTUS
posted by annsunny at 1:14 PM on October 16, 2012

Another correction needed!
posted by found missing at 1:58 PM on October 16, 2012

Secret Life of Gravy: "Romney is accused by his father’s longtime aide of shifting political positions in “erratic and startling ways” "

Mitt saw his dad's candidacy implode due to sincerity He learned that sincerity loses elections. QED.
posted by notsnot at 2:03 PM on October 16, 2012

What is the thread for the debate? And anyone got a link?
posted by ersatz at 2:07 PM on October 16, 2012

liza: "President Clinton Explains Mitt Romney's $5 Trillion Tax Cut yt "

"We're for arithmetic over illusion." Bill, you beautiful son of a... that was great.
posted by notsnot at 2:17 PM on October 16, 2012

Bill, you beautiful son of a... that was great I mean, his mother was not a nice lady.

BIDEN STYLE!
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:33 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

You know how Ryan unsucessfully tried to throw Biden off his game by mentionin a car accident?

I really think that if Obama wanted to play dirty during the debates to throw Romney off his game, the best way to do it is if Obama mentioned how much of a disappointment Romney would be to his father.
posted by amuseDetachment at 3:08 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

He could just wonder if Romney flipflops were from "brainwashing."
posted by drezdn at 3:24 PM on October 16, 2012

I really think that if Obama wanted to play dirty during the debates to throw Romney off his game, the best way to do it is if Obama mentioned how much of a disappointment Romney would be to his father.

I supsect that a direct, out and out "Your father would be disappointed in you" wouldn't be taken well by the audience. However, a bunch of "Your father said this, you did that" would probably go over OK, and might have the same intended effect anyway (assuming there's any credence to the idea that it might throw Romney off in the first place).
posted by Flunkie at 3:40 PM on October 16, 2012

Under the debate rules there are to be no follow-up questions from either the moderator or the audience and the candidates may not ask direct questions of each other. Which is really a shame because all I wanted my President to ask tonight was "Mr. Romney I'm confused. Sometimes you make statements that make it seem you are pro-choice and other times you make statements that make it seem you are pro-life. I can't figure out where you really stand on this issue."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:49 PM on October 16, 2012

New debate thread, FYI.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:08 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

Green Party candidate, Jill Stein, and her VP Candidate, Cheri Honkala were arrested trying to enter the grounds of Hofstra University, in Hempstead, New York, where the debate is scheduled to take place. They are currently still in police custody. The charge is "obstructing traffic," a charge Jill Stein for President staffer and lawyer Alex Howard called "bogus" in that there was no through-traffic visible at any time during the incident.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:13 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

Mental Wimp: "et peeve #392 here: changes in marginal rates accompanied by changes in exemptions and credits to make them revenue neutral (if such a thing were even possible under Romney's fantasy scenario) are not "Tax Cuts", they are merely shifting the tax burden, in this case from the wealthy to the middle class."

No, it's a cut. It's a huge cut for certain people, a small increase for certain other people, but on balance given what Romney has stated he would do, a 20% across the board tax cut would result in somewhere around $20 billion less in revenue after eliminating all itemized deductions.

Of course, the price tag is much higher since he also wants to do things like eliminate the estate tax.
posted by wierdo at 4:20 PM on October 16, 2012

Green Party candidate, Jill Stein, and her VP Candidate, Cheri Honkala were arrested trying to enter the grounds of Hofstra University, in Hempstead, New York, where the debate is scheduled to take place. They are currently still in police custody. The charge is "obstructing traffic," a charge Jill Stein for President staffer and lawyer Alex Howard called "bogus" in that there was no through-traffic visible at any time during the incident.

Tonight's episode of Democracy is brought to you by Anheuser-Busch Companies, the Howard G. Buffet Foundation, Sheldon S. Cohen, Esq., Crowell & Moring LLP, International Bottled Water Association (IBWA), The Kovler Fund, Philips Electronics North America, and Southwest Airlines.
posted by threeants at 4:26 PM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Seriously? The International Bottled Water Association? Is this reality or neoliberal fanfic?
posted by threeants at 4:28 PM on October 16, 2012

If I didn't live in North Carolina, I would definitely vote for her. I feel ashamed and embarrassed by our "Democratic process" in America.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:29 PM on October 16, 2012

BIDEN STYLE!

Romney Style!
posted by homunculus at 4:31 PM on October 16, 2012

Talk about sad: Support for both Obama and Romney goes up and down, but a new survey finds that neither one is inspiring much hope for making our lives or our society better.

when the poll asks respondents how they think the candidates might be able to improve specific areas of their lives. On questions about whether the candidates will "help make my life easier," "help me live a better or fuller life," or "help me be a more responsible citizen" both candidates’ numbers are atrocious--with no more than 32% of respondents agreeing with any question about either candidate. Obama tops out at 31% on the question of "will treat me with respect." Romney hits his maximum (19.6%) on helping people "feel safe from harm" (Obama beats him here, with 26%; on no question in this section does Romney outpace Obama). While Obama might win out, it’s with anemic numbers. Even his supporters aren’t too confident he can do much to improve their lives. We’ve selected candidates, it seems, who don’t thrill us

I guess I am voting for Obama because I think Romney has a chance to make my life much, much worse. That doesn't mean I think Obama will make it better. I think he would like to try but I also think he will be obstructed by congress.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:34 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

Why didn't somebody tell me there is a new thread for the debate?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:39 PM on October 16, 2012

Why didn't somebody tell me there is a new thread for the debate?

We were under the mistaken assumption you were reading this thread.

But by all means why restrict yourself to this thread and the new debate thread when letting us know whether you were able to find the new debate thread or not? You should go through the entire front page and make sure everyone knows your current situation along with your wants and desires at all times to make sure we don't forget about you again.
posted by Talez at 4:46 PM on October 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

This might not be the most effective of all possible debate strategies.
posted by box at 4:53 PM on October 16, 2012

You should go through the entire front page and make sure everyone knows your current situation along with your wants and desires at all times to make sure we don't forget about you again.

But if I had not made a jokey reference to the other thread you would not have been able to show your extremely unpleasant nature. So I guess you should thank me for setting you up.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:36 PM on October 16, 2012 [6 favorites]

"Actually, in the follow-up it doesn't quite work like that."
posted by Room 641-A at 6:23 PM on October 16, 2012

Jon Stewart Mocks Paul Ryan’s Soup Kitchen Story: Add Some ‘Oomph’ To ‘Manipulating People’s Emotions’
posted by homunculus at 10:51 PM on October 16, 2012

From Secret Life of Gravy's link: a survey completed by Havas Media

Havas, depending on how it's pronounced, means either greed (if both a's are pronounced uh), or sense/sanity (if it's pronounced with the first a as uh and the second as aah).

This has been your semi-interesting factoid of the day.
posted by bardophile at 11:47 PM on October 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Also, if you draw little arms on the v in 'Havas,' it looks like 'Hamas.'
posted by box at 8:37 AM on October 17, 2012 [2 favorites]

Can someone photoshop Biden with "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"
posted by drezdn at 9:08 AM on October 17, 2012 [1 favorite]

Fox are now going after Soledad O'Brien in their (scary all caps) BIAS ALERTS

John Sununu Accuses O’Brien Of Defending Obama On Libya: ‘Groupies’ On TV Are ‘Covering His Butt’
posted by homunculus at 12:29 PM on October 17, 2012

I recommend not watching John Sununu talk. It's the intellectual equivalent of slicing your lips with a knife and rubbing them with Tabasco sauce.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:32 PM on October 17, 2012 [4 favorites]

It's ok, as long as you have a safe word.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:03 PM on October 17, 2012 [3 favorites]

Paul Ryan Can’t Lose: No matter which way the election goes in November, the Republican vice-presidential nominee sees nothing but upside.
posted by homunculus at 2:08 PM on October 20, 2012

“It’s a role where you take your expertise and your value-add and you apply it,” Ryan said during a conversation in which he used the phrase “value-add” three times in a 60-second stretch. “My knowledge is how Congress works, how the budget works. Economic policy. That’s my value-add.”

The blathering! Make it stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by bardophile at 2:52 PM on October 20, 2012 [2 favorites]

That's how you know he's been bought by the corporate overlords. For someone who has spent his whole life in public service he sure speaks the corporate dialect fluently!
posted by TwoWordReview at 7:29 PM on October 20, 2012 [1 favorite]

...he sure speaks the corporate dialect fluently!

Oxymoron in there somewhere.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:45 AM on October 22, 2012

Is Your Congressman Smarter Than A Fifth-Grader?

I’ll be generous: When in the presence of elected officials, Ryan ups his game to a level that, say, eighth-graders can grasp.

That Ryan is a “professor” is a big part of the hype that Leibovich bemoans between the lines. And congressional Republicans are more than happy to feed the hype. National Review’s Robert Costa, for instance, wrote in August that Ryan’s fellow members, especially the Tea Party-rich freshman class of 2010, are like “students”:

posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:51 AM on October 22, 2012

Paul Ryan Promises Focus on the Family that He Will Fight Gay Equality
posted by homunculus at 2:36 PM on October 24, 2012

Paul Ryan Releases 90-Minute High-Endurance Budget-Slashing Video
posted by homunculus at 5:44 PM on October 31, 2012 [1 favorite]