Two Fans and A Night They Can't Remember
November 16, 2012 6:16 PM Subscribe
An Alabama fan, an LSU fan, and one night on Bourbon Street they can't remember--and the video they can't forget. In January, an Alabama fan was videotaped placing his genitals on an LSU fan's face. The video quickly went viral on YouTube.
Garrison Stamp, an 18-year-old student, was drunk and passed out at a Krystal. Brian Downing, a 32-year-old father, did not know Stamp and placed his genitals on Stamp's face. Neither Downing nor Stamp remembered the event until the video appeared on YouTube. Both of their lives were greatly affected by the event thereafter.
Garrison Stamp, an 18-year-old student, was drunk and passed out at a Krystal. Brian Downing, a 32-year-old father, did not know Stamp and placed his genitals on Stamp's face. Neither Downing nor Stamp remembered the event until the video appeared on YouTube. Both of their lives were greatly affected by the event thereafter.
Testosterone, alcohol, and sports. Don't mix them.
It's vile that so many people watched someone sexually assault a passed-out person and not only didn't do anything, but thought it was hilarious.
posted by rtha at 6:34 PM on November 16, 2012 [15 favorites]
It's vile that so many people watched someone sexually assault a passed-out person and not only didn't do anything, but thought it was hilarious.
posted by rtha at 6:34 PM on November 16, 2012 [15 favorites]
We'll never, ever, not for an aeon, let them forget. We'll post it on social media. They'll even make the Blue.
posted by Mblue at 6:35 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Mblue at 6:35 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
In that case look, look over here at what other teams have done in the name of their drunken fandom, leave mine alone, or at least let it hide in the shadow of things that are worse! (warning may be too graphic for some, although it has zero images at that link)
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:36 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:36 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
What a dick.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Drawing a penis on a passed out guys face: juvenile but a prank.
Actually putting your penis on a passed out guys face: sexual assault.
It's not all that complicated.
posted by Justinian at 6:45 PM on November 16, 2012 [25 favorites]
Actually putting your penis on a passed out guys face: sexual assault.
It's not all that complicated.
posted by Justinian at 6:45 PM on November 16, 2012 [25 favorites]
Interesting that the only one who tried to stop it (she stopped two other men before this one) is also the one who apologized to the victim.
posted by dilettante at 6:50 PM on November 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by dilettante at 6:50 PM on November 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
Was she also the one asking if anyone had a sharpie? Honest question 'cuz I didn't really follow that part.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:51 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:51 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
As a gentleman from Alabama once said, "Stupid is as stupid does."
posted by wintermind at 6:54 PM on November 16, 2012
posted by wintermind at 6:54 PM on November 16, 2012
"Nothing malicious toward that person," he says. "I just haven't thought about what he's going through because of all the chaos that's upside-down in my life."
Aaaaaaand there goes all the sympathy for Mr. Downing the journalist had skillfully piled up inside me.
posted by Nahum Tate at 6:55 PM on November 16, 2012 [30 favorites]
Aaaaaaand there goes all the sympathy for Mr. Downing the journalist had skillfully piled up inside me.
posted by Nahum Tate at 6:55 PM on November 16, 2012 [30 favorites]
This is your college football, America. Check out the bros in the REVENGE - TEABAG THE TIDE t-shirts. Winners!
posted by Fnarf at 6:56 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Fnarf at 6:56 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Aaaaaaand there goes all the sympathy for Mr. Downing the journalist had skillfully piled up inside me.
Thankfully, the two years in prison will be sure to straighten him out .
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Thankfully, the two years in prison will be sure to straighten him out .
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
When I was in college, I worked in one-hour photo labs. One day a couple of guys dropped off a roll of film that had pictures of (grinning, joyful) men violating a passed out woman with a Miller Lite bottle.
It was disgusting and disturbing and we called the cops.
This is no different. Intellectually, I know that. But viscerally, I keep trying to differentiate the two, trying to justify that while both were really shitty acts, one of them feels worse to me than the other.
I'm not really sure where to go with that.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:58 PM on November 16, 2012 [11 favorites]
It was disgusting and disturbing and we called the cops.
This is no different. Intellectually, I know that. But viscerally, I keep trying to differentiate the two, trying to justify that while both were really shitty acts, one of them feels worse to me than the other.
I'm not really sure where to go with that.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:58 PM on November 16, 2012 [11 favorites]
Given what the assault did to the victim the expected sentence of 10 months does not seem excessive. The poor kid dropped out of university because he was ashamed people would see him and recognize him.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:02 PM on November 16, 2012 [12 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:02 PM on November 16, 2012 [12 favorites]
This is no different. Intellectually, I know that. But viscerally, I keep trying to differentiate the two, trying to justify that while both were really shitty acts, one of them feels worse to me than the other.
One of them is worse than the other. I don't think just recognizing that they are both sexual assault means that they are both of the same magnitude, any more than the assault of punching someone in the stomach is the same as the assault of beating someone senseless with a bat. This incident was sexual assault, but it wasn't a violation of the guy's bodily integrity.
posted by OmieWise at 7:05 PM on November 16, 2012 [28 favorites]
One of them is worse than the other. I don't think just recognizing that they are both sexual assault means that they are both of the same magnitude, any more than the assault of punching someone in the stomach is the same as the assault of beating someone senseless with a bat. This incident was sexual assault, but it wasn't a violation of the guy's bodily integrity.
posted by OmieWise at 7:05 PM on November 16, 2012 [28 favorites]
I remember seeing this on Deadspin when it happened. Shame on them and the other media outlets that outed the name of the victim.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:05 PM on November 16, 2012
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:05 PM on November 16, 2012
The tribalism of sports escapes me, I can understand ribbing each other about your respective teams, but the need to humiliate an unconscious person just because of the colours he's wearing? No, don't get it. I think the jail sentence is appropriate.
posted by arcticseal at 7:06 PM on November 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by arcticseal at 7:06 PM on November 16, 2012 [8 favorites]
One of them is worse than the other.
This helps. Thank you.
Another thing that occurred to me is that one huge difference in the anecdote I typed above and what happened in the YouTube video is that we didn't give the pictures or the negatives back to the guys who dropped them off. The cops took them. They did not become public, and certainly were not viewed by millions.
The level of violation is therefore difficult to try to make equivalent. I don't know if there's algorithm for that sort of thing.
Anyway.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:12 PM on November 16, 2012
This helps. Thank you.
Another thing that occurred to me is that one huge difference in the anecdote I typed above and what happened in the YouTube video is that we didn't give the pictures or the negatives back to the guys who dropped them off. The cops took them. They did not become public, and certainly were not viewed by millions.
The level of violation is therefore difficult to try to make equivalent. I don't know if there's algorithm for that sort of thing.
Anyway.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:12 PM on November 16, 2012
This is no different. Intellectually, I know that. But viscerally, I keep trying to differentiate the two, trying to justify that while both were really shitty acts, one of them feels worse to me than the other.
I'm with OmieWise, they are different. I'm no lawyer but to me one is battery the other is rape.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:14 PM on November 16, 2012
I'm with OmieWise, they are different. I'm no lawyer but to me one is battery the other is rape.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:14 PM on November 16, 2012
mudpuppie, I find myself thinking the same sort of thing. And it comes down, for me at least, to Stamp's statement at the end:
posted by Hactar at 7:17 PM on November 16, 2012
For Stamp, it seems fair. He says he's glad Downing doesn't have to register as a sex offender. It might have been nice, Garrison thinks, if Downing had apologized, the way the blond girl in that video did, the day before the trial in the DA's office. Ellen Cassin saw Garrison, came right up to him and said she was sorry, nothing more. That's all Garrison needed to hear. Still, he has no real animosity toward Brian Downing. "I don't hate him," Stamp says. "He made a very bad decision, and he's paying for it. I can't really fault him for anything other than that."On preview, OmieWise nailed if perfectly.
posted by Hactar at 7:17 PM on November 16, 2012
We spent a new year's eve one year in New Orleans, back in the nineties, I believe (or 89? Florida was in it). The mixture of Sugar Bowl fans in town and new years in the French Quarter (which is a big player in this situation, mind you) makes for a ridiculous combination of drunkenness, stupidity, and reckless abandon in a foreign town— along with the weirdly arbitrary but strong emotions of rivalry and team identity. Fans were wearing colors and yelling at each other while they reveled in the melange of a situation. Cops on horses were trotting around, women with pasties were swinging them in windows, masses were thronging and heaving on the streets with daiquiris in hand.
While I still think it's idiotic and appalling, I can see how easily a drunken teabagging could happen there and then. It's like a recipe.
posted by Red Loop at 7:23 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
While I still think it's idiotic and appalling, I can see how easily a drunken teabagging could happen there and then. It's like a recipe.
posted by Red Loop at 7:23 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I applaud any teabagging war between any two collage football franchises, heck let's make teabagging synonymous with collage football.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:26 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 7:26 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Is publishing that event on ESPN, even with the dick parts blurred out, much better/worse/different than the event itself? I guess that's the confusing part for me....
posted by HuronBob at 7:27 PM on November 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by HuronBob at 7:27 PM on November 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
This is cognitively and emotionally challenging for me. I get that this is sexual assault. But I still think it's funny. And then I'm like, well what do you expect if you get pass-out drunk in that kind of situation. But then I experiment with reversing the genders in my head. And then I'm still like well if "she" was that stupid... But obviously that's the "she was asking for it" defense. That doesn't fly. I don't know. It's still funny, and I don't know if I would have stopped it (in the boy-case, probably no, in the girl case, I would hope, yes, or more likely someone else would), so I'm left with my counterfactuals and cognitive dissonance.
posted by zeek321 at 7:33 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by zeek321 at 7:33 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
The neo-plantation political economy, the corruption of universities, the epidemic of brain damage, the institutionalization of sexual violence... College football should be nuked from high orbit.
posted by docgonzo at 7:33 PM on November 16, 2012 [18 favorites]
posted by docgonzo at 7:33 PM on November 16, 2012 [18 favorites]
Downing appears to Stamp's right, wearing a bill-backward Alabama ball cap, a goatee and chinstrap beard, an Alabama jacket and khaki shorts.
Ugh...
The last picture in the article churns my stomach.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 7:34 PM on November 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
Ugh...
The last picture in the article churns my stomach.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 7:34 PM on November 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
I can remember clicking on a link to the video back when it was new. The article makes the point that this kind of thing would never have become a big deal before cellphone videos and YouTube, and that's true. There's a disconnect in some ways there, and I don't think we've come to terms with the ways in which it isn't so easy to just be dumb and drunk and anonymous. You can still be drunk, and you can still be dumb, but that anonymous part...
posted by Forktine at 7:40 PM on November 16, 2012
posted by Forktine at 7:40 PM on November 16, 2012
Southern college football? Check.
Over-sized Ralph Lauren shirts? Check.
Alcohol? Double check.
Well, considering those three things are checked off the list, I'm not surprised by this behavior.
posted by Evernix at 7:41 PM on November 16, 2012
Over-sized Ralph Lauren shirts? Check.
Alcohol? Double check.
Well, considering those three things are checked off the list, I'm not surprised by this behavior.
posted by Evernix at 7:41 PM on November 16, 2012
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals
Jesus fucking wept.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:21 PM on November 16, 2012 [11 favorites]
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals
Jesus fucking wept.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:21 PM on November 16, 2012 [11 favorites]
arcticseal: "The tribalism of sports escapes me, I can understand ribbing each other about your respective teams, but the need to humiliate an unconscious person just because of the colours he's wearing? No, don't get it. I think the jail sentence is appropriate."
Because colors are unimportant, no? The unimportance of clothing color could then be extended to, say, eye color, then skin.
posted by Samizdata at 8:24 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Because colors are unimportant, no? The unimportance of clothing color could then be extended to, say, eye color, then skin.
posted by Samizdata at 8:24 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
Isn't it interesting how with a little back story and some personal details crimes appear to be committed by human beings.
posted by srboisvert at 8:35 PM on November 16, 2012 [17 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 8:35 PM on November 16, 2012 [17 favorites]
I fear I've not made myself clear. The sexual assault would have been reprehensible regardless of the race or gender of the people involved. The attacker abused someone who wasn't able to defend himself just because he was a symbol of something different.
posted by arcticseal at 8:38 PM on November 16, 2012
posted by arcticseal at 8:38 PM on November 16, 2012
arcticseal: "I fear I've not made myself clear. The sexual assault would have been reprehensible regardless of the race or gender of the people involved. The attacker abused someone who wasn't able to defend himself just because he was a symbol of something different."
No, I understood you one hundred percent.
I was just remarking on the over simplification. Let's just see it as bad since someone abused someone else that was unable to defend themselves and leave it at that. Otherwise, we loop right around to my original point.
Let's just say, sports or colors, notwithstanding, this was (pun not intended) a real dick move.
posted by Samizdata at 8:40 PM on November 16, 2012
No, I understood you one hundred percent.
I was just remarking on the over simplification. Let's just see it as bad since someone abused someone else that was unable to defend themselves and leave it at that. Otherwise, we loop right around to my original point.
Let's just say, sports or colors, notwithstanding, this was (pun not intended) a real dick move.
posted by Samizdata at 8:40 PM on November 16, 2012
This reminds me of the Turkey Slap incident from Australia's Big Brother. Much the same issue, except someone chose to broadcast it on TV.
I guess I'm glad I was raised right, and I've never felt the need to whip my boy-bits out and thack some complete stranger in the head with them because of.... um.... well, any reason, but also some imagined nationalism based around sport.
Someone brought up Israel/Palestine [and it grows, like the many headed hydra, the beast at the end of the world, raging from thread to thread, consuming all rational thought] but we have enough reasons to be crappy to each other in this world, do we really need to create completely artificial hatred comprised around whose highly-paid proxies run and score goals better?
Apparently we do.
posted by Mezentian at 8:45 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I guess I'm glad I was raised right, and I've never felt the need to whip my boy-bits out and thack some complete stranger in the head with them because of.... um.... well, any reason, but also some imagined nationalism based around sport.
Someone brought up Israel/Palestine [and it grows, like the many headed hydra, the beast at the end of the world, raging from thread to thread, consuming all rational thought] but we have enough reasons to be crappy to each other in this world, do we really need to create completely artificial hatred comprised around whose highly-paid proxies run and score goals better?
Apparently we do.
posted by Mezentian at 8:45 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Boy I'm glad we won the Civil War. Otherwise this kind of typical drunk Southern white guy behavior would've made its way to Congress. Don't fall asleep during session! Or else Boehner might put his boner on your forehead. Seriously, with all the homophobia down South, why is it that when guys get drunk they always do this sort of thing? Dave Chappelle explored the issue quite wonderfully I might add.
posted by ReeMonster at 8:45 PM on November 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by ReeMonster at 8:45 PM on November 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
They should have both been arrested for drinking Bud Light.
posted by Optamystic at 8:46 PM on November 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 8:46 PM on November 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
Is is just me, or is the image of the victim in the ESPN link oddly shot? Like the photog used tilt-shift?
posted by Mezentian at 8:52 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Mezentian at 8:52 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
You know how sometimes little kids go to the zoo and laugh at the monkeys because they're silly bickering animals that seem almost as intelligent as us, but not quite? Well, here's a secret...
The monkeys are laughing at us for the same reasons.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 8:53 PM on November 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
The monkeys are laughing at us for the same reasons.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 8:53 PM on November 16, 2012 [3 favorites]
I wish I had something more eloquent to say, but: This is all just fucking gross.
posted by rollbiz at 9:38 PM on November 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by rollbiz at 9:38 PM on November 16, 2012 [5 favorites]
It was a bad thing, but 10 months is excessive for a first-time offender who will never do anything like this again. What a waste of taxpayer money and injury to his wife and young child. He should have been forced to pay hefty restitution in a civil trial and been sentenced to community service in the criminal trial.
posted by shivohum at 10:54 PM on November 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by shivohum at 10:54 PM on November 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
It's still funny
It's a man shoving their balls in an unconscious person's face. I honestly cannot see how that is is in any way funny in the first instance. Let alone still funny when you reflect on it.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 11:10 PM on November 16, 2012 [30 favorites]
It's a man shoving their balls in an unconscious person's face. I honestly cannot see how that is is in any way funny in the first instance. Let alone still funny when you reflect on it.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 11:10 PM on November 16, 2012 [30 favorites]
Not sure how I feel about this, actually... but first-blush this seems like "MRA-style" manufactured outrage where we gotta pretend like this is on par with assaults much worse than this that happen to female victims on every campus in the country every single week. This is different than that, qualitatively, to me. I'm not intending to downplay it, just to contextualize it.
My (male) drunk ass has probably had balls put on my head at some point -- it was my good fortune to have lived this part of my life before cellphone video was so prevalent. I'm not saying that this was trivial or that I'm alright with it; I'm only saying that it's my (wait for it) privilege to be able to completely sluff this off as a prank that did not meaningfully intrude into my self-perceptions of my estimations of my future safety.
Now, for women or other bro-culture drunk-bender-marginizable minority groups that have to face this type of shit; I'll be first in the queue for the outrage bandwagon. But this seems like it was just a fucking SEC guy that got balls on his head without much extraneous hand-wringing past what was manufactured. I'd hate to have balls on my head -- especially on video -- but as a binge-drinking school-spirit road-warrior, every so often it's your turn in the barrel.
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 11:43 PM on November 16, 2012 [10 favorites]
My (male) drunk ass has probably had balls put on my head at some point -- it was my good fortune to have lived this part of my life before cellphone video was so prevalent. I'm not saying that this was trivial or that I'm alright with it; I'm only saying that it's my (wait for it) privilege to be able to completely sluff this off as a prank that did not meaningfully intrude into my self-perceptions of my estimations of my future safety.
Now, for women or other bro-culture drunk-bender-marginizable minority groups that have to face this type of shit; I'll be first in the queue for the outrage bandwagon. But this seems like it was just a fucking SEC guy that got balls on his head without much extraneous hand-wringing past what was manufactured. I'd hate to have balls on my head -- especially on video -- but as a binge-drinking school-spirit road-warrior, every so often it's your turn in the barrel.
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 11:43 PM on November 16, 2012 [10 favorites]
as a binge-drinking school-spirit road-warrior, every so often it's your turn in the barrel
It's not "your turn" to be sexually assaulted any more than it's anyone else "turn," you know.
posted by scody at 11:53 PM on November 16, 2012 [16 favorites]
It's not "your turn" to be sexually assaulted any more than it's anyone else "turn," you know.
posted by scody at 11:53 PM on November 16, 2012 [16 favorites]
That's a hell of a cherry-pick. My original argumentation was a tad more nuanced.
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 11:56 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 11:56 PM on November 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
This is no different. Intellectually, I know that. But viscerally, I keep trying to differentiate the two, trying to justify that while both were really shitty acts, one of them feels worse to me than the other.
Others have chimed in, but I'll add my own reason why the bottle incident is worse than the tea bag. It's easy: just take gender out of the equation. If, in both situations, both victims were male, or both were female, it's obvious that penetrating someone with a bottle is worse than tea bagging them.
It sounds like this situation was properly resolved. Downing deserved a little incarceration (maybe a little less than he got, but something more than a slap on the wrist), but like Stamp, I agree that the whole registered sex offender thing would be overkill. Stamp seems to have emerged well, and I applaud him. On the other hand, that story linked by RolandOfEld fills me with rage and disgust. That's the story of a guy should go to jail for a long time.
posted by Edgewise at 11:58 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Others have chimed in, but I'll add my own reason why the bottle incident is worse than the tea bag. It's easy: just take gender out of the equation. If, in both situations, both victims were male, or both were female, it's obvious that penetrating someone with a bottle is worse than tea bagging them.
It sounds like this situation was properly resolved. Downing deserved a little incarceration (maybe a little less than he got, but something more than a slap on the wrist), but like Stamp, I agree that the whole registered sex offender thing would be overkill. Stamp seems to have emerged well, and I applaud him. On the other hand, that story linked by RolandOfEld fills me with rage and disgust. That's the story of a guy should go to jail for a long time.
posted by Edgewise at 11:58 PM on November 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
For Andrea, the Brian in that video isn't the Brian she knows. She's been married to him for four years, dated him for three years before that. Her husband isn't cruel and never has been.
This statement is provably wrong. With video. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:06 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
This statement is provably wrong. With video. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:06 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
"My (male) drunk ass has probably had balls put on my head at some point -- it was my good fortune to have lived this part of my life before cellphone video was so prevalent. I'm not saying that this was trivial or that I'm alright with it; I'm only saying that it's my (wait for it) privlidge to be able to completely sluff this off as a prank that did not meaningfully intrude into my self-perceptions of my estimations of my future safety."
Just because you've somehow internalized that it is ok for some people to sexually assault you, doesn't mean that it is ok for people to sexually assault other people in general. This is a kid who was passed out in a crowded burger joint who only remembers playful ribbing between friendly fans but who woke up to find that a stranger had humped his face with their bare genitals. I would not call an ability to sluff this off either privilege or good fortune.
"Now, for women or other bro-culture drunk-bender-marginizable minority groups that have to face this type of shit; I'll be first in the queue for the outrage bandwagon. But this seems like it was just a fucking SEC guy that got balls on his head without much extraneous hand-wringing past what was manufactured. I'd hate to have balls on my head -- especially on video -- but as a binge-drinking school-spirit road-warrior, every so often it's your turn in the barrel."
An appreciation for sports in the south is not and cannot be allowed to be a sign hanging around one's neck licensing sexual assault, there should never be barrels like this. If you ever wake up to find that a stranger humped your face to a cheering crowd in a burger restaurant, I would hope that someone manufactures some outrage for you.
posted by Blasdelb at 12:49 AM on November 17, 2012 [12 favorites]
Just because you've somehow internalized that it is ok for some people to sexually assault you, doesn't mean that it is ok for people to sexually assault other people in general. This is a kid who was passed out in a crowded burger joint who only remembers playful ribbing between friendly fans but who woke up to find that a stranger had humped his face with their bare genitals. I would not call an ability to sluff this off either privilege or good fortune.
"Now, for women or other bro-culture drunk-bender-marginizable minority groups that have to face this type of shit; I'll be first in the queue for the outrage bandwagon. But this seems like it was just a fucking SEC guy that got balls on his head without much extraneous hand-wringing past what was manufactured. I'd hate to have balls on my head -- especially on video -- but as a binge-drinking school-spirit road-warrior, every so often it's your turn in the barrel."
An appreciation for sports in the south is not and cannot be allowed to be a sign hanging around one's neck licensing sexual assault, there should never be barrels like this. If you ever wake up to find that a stranger humped your face to a cheering crowd in a burger restaurant, I would hope that someone manufactures some outrage for you.
posted by Blasdelb at 12:49 AM on November 17, 2012 [12 favorites]
I do think the sexual offender status can be easily over-used.
I happen to know a lesbian who is haunted for life with said status as she had a lesbian relationship when she was 17 with a 16 year old girl of a fully consensual status. Said girl's mother decided her little girl wasn't going to be into any of the kinky sex stuff and pressed statuatory rape charge with the acquaintance. Now she has to deal with offender registrations, missed job opportunities, and housing limitations, all because she had an relationship that was unpopular with certain parties.
posted by Samizdata at 12:55 AM on November 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
I happen to know a lesbian who is haunted for life with said status as she had a lesbian relationship when she was 17 with a 16 year old girl of a fully consensual status. Said girl's mother decided her little girl wasn't going to be into any of the kinky sex stuff and pressed statuatory rape charge with the acquaintance. Now she has to deal with offender registrations, missed job opportunities, and housing limitations, all because she had an relationship that was unpopular with certain parties.
posted by Samizdata at 12:55 AM on November 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
Coming from a place where sports fans traditionally carve each other up with craft knives, I can say with some sincerity that I'd prefer to be teabagged any day of the week.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:01 AM on November 17, 2012
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:01 AM on November 17, 2012
> If you ever wake up to find that a stranger humped your face to a cheering crowd in a burger restaurant, I would hope that someone manufactures some outrage for you.No worries, mate. I'd be okay. Which was kind of my point.
The thing I was hoping to get across is that while we're discussing sexual assault we should acknowledge that we must place it on a continuum of severity; and that this assault is far less grave than other assaults that happen continuously -- week-in, week-out, unrelenting -- on every campus in every state to women and queer kids and others to whom this (I'll just say it) is a much bigger deal with much higher stakes and much darker outcomes.
This guy got balls on his head in a diner with a chanting crowd. Sucks, no doubt. He didn't (couldn't) consent, and this was assault. The guy who did it needs to check his shit, and we should suss out if this is a thing that this guy has a problem with that will cause problems (past teabagging a rival sports fan in a diner while drunk).
Lots of fucked-up shit is done, no doubt, and it doesn't make it right. But I'll stand by my contention that -- wrong as this is -- it's not even in the same family of assault as the shit being forced on half-a-dozen women tonight... as we speak at %NEARBY_CAMPUS%. It's happening right fucking now, and it's entirely more grave, and deserves discussion far more than this does. There; I said it.
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 1:16 AM on November 17, 2012 [9 favorites]
I don't know if we have to compare them, necessarily. I'm as against whitewashing crimes against women as the next person, but my gut feeling is that being the victim of this this kind of assault would feel incredibly violating, no need for manufactured outrage. I'm a woman, and I understand how someone could potentially feel less violated, depending on their definition of hazing or whatever, but by no means are all men impervious to the damaging effects of sexual assault. If it happened to a woman I'd feel the same. I really just wish men would keep their dicks in their pants and not feel entitled to violate others with their phallus as some kind of symbol of alpha male and/or male sexual dominance.
I don't think acknowledging this as assault takes away from the horrifying realities about campus rape. I think that directing attention toward the criminally mistaken idea that sexual assault is a casual part of male social life is a good thing, whether the victims are male or female.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:47 AM on November 17, 2012 [23 favorites]
I don't think acknowledging this as assault takes away from the horrifying realities about campus rape. I think that directing attention toward the criminally mistaken idea that sexual assault is a casual part of male social life is a good thing, whether the victims are male or female.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:47 AM on November 17, 2012 [23 favorites]
It was a bad thing, but 10 months is excessive for a first-time offender who will never do anything like this again. What a waste of taxpayer money and injury to his wife and young child.
I dunno, receiving the punishment assigned to the crime for a highly visible assault might be part of a deterrent for other future proto-assaulters.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:53 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
I dunno, receiving the punishment assigned to the crime for a highly visible assault might be part of a deterrent for other future proto-assaulters.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:53 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
If it stood to me, there'd be a community service sentence for every person in that burger joint that did nothing but laugh. Twice the community service for anyone filming.
posted by Dysk at 3:06 AM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 3:06 AM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
The original incident isn't that bad, not so much a crime as a stupid prank; what makes it anything other than a dumb anecdote is the omnipresence of cameras which got this uploaded on Youtube.
To make this into a sexual assault in anything but a narrow legalistic way is wrong. To put this gay in jail (at the risk of real sexual assault) and ruin his life is just moronic.
Far worse are all the news outlets who humiliate the victim further in the service of moral outrage.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:46 AM on November 17, 2012 [5 favorites]
To make this into a sexual assault in anything but a narrow legalistic way is wrong. To put this gay in jail (at the risk of real sexual assault) and ruin his life is just moronic.
Far worse are all the news outlets who humiliate the victim further in the service of moral outrage.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:46 AM on November 17, 2012 [5 favorites]
"The original incident isn't that bad, not so much a crime as a stupid prank; what makes it anything other than a dumb anecdote is the omnipresence of cameras which got this uploaded on Youtube."
Pranks are things that happen between friends, this was not a prank. This was a middle aged stranger using his genitalia to sexually humiliate a kid who was vulnerable, alone, and unconscious for the amusement of a crowd for no other reason than the sports team he followed.
posted by Blasdelb at 5:22 AM on November 17, 2012 [23 favorites]
Pranks are things that happen between friends, this was not a prank. This was a middle aged stranger using his genitalia to sexually humiliate a kid who was vulnerable, alone, and unconscious for the amusement of a crowd for no other reason than the sports team he followed.
posted by Blasdelb at 5:22 AM on November 17, 2012 [23 favorites]
On other note, the layout, design and photography in the linked article were very good.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:32 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:32 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
Pranks are things that happen between friends, this was not a prank. This was a middle aged stranger using his genitalia to sexually humiliate a kid who was vulnerable, alone, and unconscious for the amusement of a crowd for no other reason than the sports team he followed.
Yeah, I'm really grateful to the universe right now that somebody like Downing (and based on the ESPN comments there seem to be lots and lots of folks like him) didn't wander into my house the time I fainted years ago and lay out cold on the bathroom floor, or the time last spring when my back locked up and it took me 20 minutes to inch my way to the phone. Because if someone's willing to publicly expose themselves, rub their scrotum all over an incapacitated stranger, and finger fuck their nose in front of a crowd on camera, what would they be willing to do someplace where there aren't witnesses?
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:51 AM on November 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I'm really grateful to the universe right now that somebody like Downing (and based on the ESPN comments there seem to be lots and lots of folks like him) didn't wander into my house the time I fainted years ago and lay out cold on the bathroom floor, or the time last spring when my back locked up and it took me 20 minutes to inch my way to the phone. Because if someone's willing to publicly expose themselves, rub their scrotum all over an incapacitated stranger, and finger fuck their nose in front of a crowd on camera, what would they be willing to do someplace where there aren't witnesses?
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:51 AM on November 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Boy I'm glad we won the Civil War. Otherwise this kind of typical drunk Southern white guy behavior would've made its way to Congress. Don't fall asleep during session! Or else Boehner might put his boner on your forehead. Seriously, with all the homophobia down South, why is it that when guys get drunk they always do this sort of thing?
If you think this is kind of thing is limited to the South, you are incredibly sheltered.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:19 AM on November 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
If you think this is kind of thing is limited to the South, you are incredibly sheltered.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:19 AM on November 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
my question is: who the fuck thought this would be a good idea to record and then upload to youtube? who is that asshole who filmed it like it was a joke and then spread it around like it was evidence?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:21 AM on November 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:21 AM on November 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it's odd that the ESPN article doesn't look into that at all. Who posted it and why and what consequences *they* faced seem like interesting questions.
posted by mediareport at 6:30 AM on November 17, 2012
posted by mediareport at 6:30 AM on November 17, 2012
I cannot believe the people that think jail sentence for this is justified. Obviously this was in bad taste and shouldn't have happened, but this no rape. Literally no one was worse off until the YouTube video appeared. I don't condone drunkenness, assaults, etc., but what good comes out of the jail sentence? Are the women showing their breasts at Mardi Gras arrested for sexual assault?
posted by zeikka at 6:30 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by zeikka at 6:30 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
Something in Downing allowed him to respond to mob mentality, and bully, and sexually abuse, a young man who was obviously defenseless. The mob cheered. Traditional football rivalries and alcohol played a big part. Downing learns a very hard lesson, but still has no compassion for the victim. Maybe the mob learns that a stupid drunken act of abuse has real consequences. The victim has a good attitude, and I hope he can hang on to it.
Downing's wife deserves a medal.
posted by theora55 at 6:30 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
Downing's wife deserves a medal.
posted by theora55 at 6:30 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
I am often grateful for the fact that back in the 70s when I drank enough to black out, the only thing I know I did really wrong was knock someone's stand-alone stained-glass window down and dance on it in my bare feet. Or throw up over and over again, apologizing repeatedly. And the only reason I know I did it was someone told me afterwards. In an admiring way. Forty years later, I am still ashamed of that, and I would never do that, drunk or sober, if I were aware. Drunk people are often dangerous and a threat to themselves or others (yeah, I haven't had a drink in nearly 40 years).
posted by Peach at 7:16 AM on November 17, 2012
posted by Peach at 7:16 AM on November 17, 2012
I love the irony of the ESPN warning: "This story contains mature subject matter and language." The last word I'd use to describe this story is "mature".
I went to high school with drunk football animals like this. Lock them all up and force them to read books.
posted by Nelson at 7:44 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
I went to high school with drunk football animals like this. Lock them all up and force them to read books.
posted by Nelson at 7:44 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
I went to high school with drunk football animals like this. Lock them all up and force them to read books.
Yeah, that'll show them the error of their ways.
The guy did something dumb and wrong while drunk. He's already lost his job and is helping his family get by doing whatever he can, including washing dishes. Not sure what 10 months-2 years in prison will teach him that he hasn't already learned.
Community Service and probation and maybe a week in jail seem like a fairer sentence.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on November 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that'll show them the error of their ways.
The guy did something dumb and wrong while drunk. He's already lost his job and is helping his family get by doing whatever he can, including washing dishes. Not sure what 10 months-2 years in prison will teach him that he hasn't already learned.
Community Service and probation and maybe a week in jail seem like a fairer sentence.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on November 17, 2012 [3 favorites]
I don't think this works as "Hey - it's OK, it happened to a Guy! If it happened to a Girl it would be Way Worse!"
Because once that becomes accepted the next step seems like
"Hey - If Guys Can Handle It I Don't See Why Girls Can't"
So, no. It's an assault on a human. 10 months of prison, seems reasonable.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:07 AM on November 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
Because once that becomes accepted the next step seems like
"Hey - If Guys Can Handle It I Don't See Why Girls Can't"
So, no. It's an assault on a human. 10 months of prison, seems reasonable.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:07 AM on November 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
Downing's wife deserves a medal.
For her sake, I hope she's a light sleeper.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:08 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
For her sake, I hope she's a light sleeper.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:08 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
I guess my primary concern when I come upon an unconscious individual isn't the age or the sports team they follow... My primary concern is that they're fucking unconscious and probably need help.
If your initial action is anything other than ensuring he doesnt die, you deserve at least a week in the clink to think about it.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 8:21 AM on November 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
If your initial action is anything other than ensuring he doesnt die, you deserve at least a week in the clink to think about it.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 8:21 AM on November 17, 2012 [6 favorites]
I am often grateful for the fact that back in the 70s when I drank enough to black out, the only thing I know I did really wrong was knock someone's stand-alone stained-glass window down and dance on it in my bare feet.
The only time I ever passed out drunk I got robbed and my face kicked in by a couple of never identified schoolmates resulting in a fractured cheekbone and being a two week long biology class show and tell lesson in blood pooling and decomposition in my eye cavity.
I know that plenty of other people knew who did it and not one has ever told me. It is why I don't go to reunions or really have anything to do with people from my school. Many people are monsters to defenceless people and even more people let the monsters do their evil and even cheer it on.
I wish there was a youtube video taken and posted by one of those enablers but it was 30 years ago so all my former school mates can all pretend they knew nothing.
I have also never drunk to that level of impairment since.
posted by srboisvert at 8:55 AM on November 17, 2012 [8 favorites]
The only time I ever passed out drunk I got robbed and my face kicked in by a couple of never identified schoolmates resulting in a fractured cheekbone and being a two week long biology class show and tell lesson in blood pooling and decomposition in my eye cavity.
I know that plenty of other people knew who did it and not one has ever told me. It is why I don't go to reunions or really have anything to do with people from my school. Many people are monsters to defenceless people and even more people let the monsters do their evil and even cheer it on.
I wish there was a youtube video taken and posted by one of those enablers but it was 30 years ago so all my former school mates can all pretend they knew nothing.
I have also never drunk to that level of impairment since.
posted by srboisvert at 8:55 AM on November 17, 2012 [8 favorites]
The guy did something dumb and wrong while drunk. He's already lost his job and is helping his family get by doing whatever he can, including washing dishes. Not sure what 10 months-2 years in prison will teach him that he hasn't already learned.
I doubt that prison will teach him this either, but his remarkable lack of empathy with the victim or any attempt - sincere or otherwise - to apologize suggests that really he hasn't learned anything beyond don't get video-taped doing this sort of thing. Sexual assault, like all forms of assault, is a spectrum and shrugging off its lesser forms as a form of pranking or a natural, though problematic, consequence of drunken behaviour has repercussions all the way along that spectrum. This may be "no rape" as zeikka commented, but it's not just "bad taste": it's a form of sexual assault performed for a crowd on a college kid by a middle aged man who appears to have never reflected on the fallout for his victim at all.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 9:29 AM on November 17, 2012 [9 favorites]
I doubt that prison will teach him this either, but his remarkable lack of empathy with the victim or any attempt - sincere or otherwise - to apologize suggests that really he hasn't learned anything beyond don't get video-taped doing this sort of thing. Sexual assault, like all forms of assault, is a spectrum and shrugging off its lesser forms as a form of pranking or a natural, though problematic, consequence of drunken behaviour has repercussions all the way along that spectrum. This may be "no rape" as zeikka commented, but it's not just "bad taste": it's a form of sexual assault performed for a crowd on a college kid by a middle aged man who appears to have never reflected on the fallout for his victim at all.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 9:29 AM on November 17, 2012 [9 favorites]
Downing's wife deserves a medal.
Is there a medal for enabling?
Everyone should be aware that for many people, consuming a certain amount of alcohol causes really shitty behavior with no subsequent memory of it. Not believing that is true of you is not an excuse for behaving like an asshole. They should teach this stuff in high school.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:09 AM on November 17, 2012
Is there a medal for enabling?
Everyone should be aware that for many people, consuming a certain amount of alcohol causes really shitty behavior with no subsequent memory of it. Not believing that is true of you is not an excuse for behaving like an asshole. They should teach this stuff in high school.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:09 AM on November 17, 2012
Is there a medal for enabling?
That's a derogatory view to take on the wife's decision. Especially when it's clear she doesn't approve at all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:34 AM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
That's a derogatory view to take on the wife's decision. Especially when it's clear she doesn't approve at all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:34 AM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
Is getting some guy's genitals squashed in your face and the video being seen by everyone you know more or less awful than some other other form of sexual assault? Comparing horrible events doesn't help. Yes, some attacks are more horrific. But having one's victimization compared to others' doesn't help. Instead of that, victims deserve compassion, perpetrators deserve consequences, and everybody should try to behave a little bit better.
posted by theora55 at 11:04 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 11:04 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
zeikka: "but what good comes out of the jail sentence?"
Providing an example for anyone else that thinks this type of "prank" might be funny.
posted by the_artificer at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
Providing an example for anyone else that thinks this type of "prank" might be funny.
posted by the_artificer at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2012 [4 favorites]
This was a middle aged stranger
32 is not middle aged.
I cannot believe a 32 year old man did this though. Geez, I was figuring it was another college kid, but no an adult with a wife and a child. He deserves the jail time and I'm sure he'll never do anything like this again.
I feel worse for the victim. He dropped out of school, everyone knows his name, there is no escape from this for him. And, what of the morons who watched? How do you not stop and help someone who is passed out?
How do you not call 911 in this kind of case? Good grief, maybe I am just a big mouth, but I would've been screaming at those idiots to leave the guy alone and making sure he was still breathing.
posted by SuzySmith at 11:28 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
32 is not middle aged.
I cannot believe a 32 year old man did this though. Geez, I was figuring it was another college kid, but no an adult with a wife and a child. He deserves the jail time and I'm sure he'll never do anything like this again.
I feel worse for the victim. He dropped out of school, everyone knows his name, there is no escape from this for him. And, what of the morons who watched? How do you not stop and help someone who is passed out?
How do you not call 911 in this kind of case? Good grief, maybe I am just a big mouth, but I would've been screaming at those idiots to leave the guy alone and making sure he was still breathing.
posted by SuzySmith at 11:28 AM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
lesbiassparrow: "The guy did something dumb and wrong while drunk. He's already lost his job and is helping his family get by doing whatever he can, including washing dishes. Not sure what 10 months-2 years in prison will teach him that he hasn't already learned.
I doubt that prison will teach him this either, but his remarkable lack of empathy with the victim or any attempt - sincere or otherwise - to apologize suggests that really he hasn't learned anything beyond don't get video-taped doing this sort of thing. Sexual assault, like all forms of assault, is a spectrum and shrugging off its lesser forms as a form of pranking or a natural, though problematic, consequence of drunken behaviour has repercussions all the way along that spectrum. This may be "no rape" as zeikka commented, but it's not just "bad taste": it's a form of sexual assault performed for a crowd on a college kid by a middle aged man who appears to have never reflected on the fallout for his victim at all."
And, I suspect there's some teabagging in his future, once his block mates find out about why he's in.
posted by Samizdata at 11:40 AM on November 17, 2012
I doubt that prison will teach him this either, but his remarkable lack of empathy with the victim or any attempt - sincere or otherwise - to apologize suggests that really he hasn't learned anything beyond don't get video-taped doing this sort of thing. Sexual assault, like all forms of assault, is a spectrum and shrugging off its lesser forms as a form of pranking or a natural, though problematic, consequence of drunken behaviour has repercussions all the way along that spectrum. This may be "no rape" as zeikka commented, but it's not just "bad taste": it's a form of sexual assault performed for a crowd on a college kid by a middle aged man who appears to have never reflected on the fallout for his victim at all."
And, I suspect there's some teabagging in his future, once his block mates find out about why he's in.
posted by Samizdata at 11:40 AM on November 17, 2012
This year we have the Super Bowl in the middle of Mardi Gras season. I will not be leaving my immediate neighborhood until march or so.
posted by St. Sorryass at 11:47 AM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Sorryass at 11:47 AM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
"but what good comes out of the jail sentence?"
Its sentiments like these that remind me of something very important my grandfather once taught me about the nature of justice, paraphrased as best I can,
You should never hang a horse thief because you think the horse thief deserves it somehow, no one deserves to be hanged. You should never hang a horse thief to show horse thieves or anyone else that stealing horses is wrong, hanging people is wrong too. You should never hang a horse thief to somehow right the wrongs that the horse thief did, really all you do is compound them with the hanging. Horse thieves are men just like you and I, loved by their God, kissed by the rain if no one else, and swaddled in this good earth.
However, you should never fail to hang a horse thief* for one very good reason, so that horses don't get stolen.
Similarly, there is a good reason a good reason to throw this sadistic asshole in jail for the ten months he got, so that it is less likely that kids who pass out in a burger joint will publicly molested in this horrific fashion. It is a statement that the community takes sexual assault seriously and is willing to take measures to address it, even when it happens to men in ways men are encouraged to sluff of for fucked up and misogynistic reasons. It is a statement that people have a right to not be sexually assaulted regardless of how vulnerable they are to it or the color of their sports jersey. It is a statement that, while rubbing your exposed genitals on the face of an unconscious person you've never even met before and is pretty dead certain to have no interest in your genitalia in their face is many things, a simple prank is not one of them.
*There was a time not so long ago when horses were something much more than rich people toys and stealing one was a very big deal, that could very easily doom someone and their family to death by slow starvation, and was near impossible to catch for obvious reasons without intensive community support.
"The guy did something dumb and wrong while drunk. He's already lost his job and is helping his family get by doing whatever he can, including washing dishes."
BINGO!
posted by Blasdelb at 11:57 AM on November 17, 2012 [12 favorites]
Its sentiments like these that remind me of something very important my grandfather once taught me about the nature of justice, paraphrased as best I can,
You should never hang a horse thief because you think the horse thief deserves it somehow, no one deserves to be hanged. You should never hang a horse thief to show horse thieves or anyone else that stealing horses is wrong, hanging people is wrong too. You should never hang a horse thief to somehow right the wrongs that the horse thief did, really all you do is compound them with the hanging. Horse thieves are men just like you and I, loved by their God, kissed by the rain if no one else, and swaddled in this good earth.
However, you should never fail to hang a horse thief* for one very good reason, so that horses don't get stolen.
Similarly, there is a good reason a good reason to throw this sadistic asshole in jail for the ten months he got, so that it is less likely that kids who pass out in a burger joint will publicly molested in this horrific fashion. It is a statement that the community takes sexual assault seriously and is willing to take measures to address it, even when it happens to men in ways men are encouraged to sluff of for fucked up and misogynistic reasons. It is a statement that people have a right to not be sexually assaulted regardless of how vulnerable they are to it or the color of their sports jersey. It is a statement that, while rubbing your exposed genitals on the face of an unconscious person you've never even met before and is pretty dead certain to have no interest in your genitalia in their face is many things, a simple prank is not one of them.
*There was a time not so long ago when horses were something much more than rich people toys and stealing one was a very big deal, that could very easily doom someone and their family to death by slow starvation, and was near impossible to catch for obvious reasons without intensive community support.
"The guy did something dumb and wrong while drunk. He's already lost his job and is helping his family get by doing whatever he can, including washing dishes."
BINGO!
posted by Blasdelb at 11:57 AM on November 17, 2012 [12 favorites]
"How do you not call 911 in this kind of case? Good grief, maybe I am just a big mouth, but I would've been screaming at those idiots to leave the guy alone and making sure he was still breathing."
It is not really quite clear from the truncated clip in the ESPN article, but while the kid was pretty fucking comatose looking while Brian Downing thrusted his fingers up his nose and ear for about a minute, he was definitely breathing and seemed to be regaining consciousness when Brian Downing whipped out his testicles and thrusted them across the kids face. In the full clip on youtube you can even hear spectators talking about how the kid seemed to be coming to just before the teabagging.
posted by Blasdelb at 12:11 PM on November 17, 2012
It is not really quite clear from the truncated clip in the ESPN article, but while the kid was pretty fucking comatose looking while Brian Downing thrusted his fingers up his nose and ear for about a minute, he was definitely breathing and seemed to be regaining consciousness when Brian Downing whipped out his testicles and thrusted them across the kids face. In the full clip on youtube you can even hear spectators talking about how the kid seemed to be coming to just before the teabagging.
posted by Blasdelb at 12:11 PM on November 17, 2012
"Similarly, there is a good reason a good reason to throw this sadistic asshole in jail for the ten months he got, so that it is less likely that kids who pass out in a burger joint will publicly molested in this horrific fashion. "
There's not a whole lot of proof that what you think is going to happen will happen. It's doubtful putting Downing in jail will prevent this sort of this from occurring.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:17 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
There's not a whole lot of proof that what you think is going to happen will happen. It's doubtful putting Downing in jail will prevent this sort of this from occurring.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:17 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think part of the reason people balk at this case is because there wasn't really a sexual motive. Nobody seems to think the perpetrator was getting off sexually through his actions; its pretty clear they were intended as a show of dominance and machismo. There is obviously a sexual aspect, but I would say that a very similar sexual dominance aspect is also in play in the "drawing dicks on a drunk guy's face" scenario, and I don't think most people would call that a sexual assault.
Anyway, I'm not arguing that he shouldn't have been charged or convicted. I just think this is an interesting example of the principle that sexual assault isnt about sex, its about power.
I am a little curious to know if he would have been charged with basic assault for messing with the victim if his balls hadn't been involved.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 12:18 PM on November 17, 2012 [5 favorites]
Anyway, I'm not arguing that he shouldn't have been charged or convicted. I just think this is an interesting example of the principle that sexual assault isnt about sex, its about power.
I am a little curious to know if he would have been charged with basic assault for messing with the victim if his balls hadn't been involved.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 12:18 PM on November 17, 2012 [5 favorites]
Garrison keeps pacing at the thought of what the disembodied voice says, watching the abuse escalate. They said I was dead, he thinks, and people just laughed. The whole time he's watching, he presumes this will end as soon as one decent human being -- a Krystal employee, an LSU fan, a Bama fan, anybody -- steps in and stops this. (If you'd been there, dear reader, it would have been you, right?)Emphasis added.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:37 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
There's not a whole lot of proof that what you think is going to happen will happen. It's doubtful putting Downing in jail will prevent this sort of this from occurring.
Indeed. Moreover, given that there were an estimated 216000 unique victims of sexual assualts in US prisons in 2008, from a total inmate population of a hair over ten times that number, a ten-month prison sentence is also, roughly, a sentence to "sexual assault with probability about 8%". I'd wager this probability is vastly higher than the probability that Brian Downing will be sexually assaulted in the next ten months if he is not imprisoned, and very probably higher than the probability that he'll sexually assault anyone else in the next ten months.
More to the point, statistics like these raise the question of whether even locking a rapist up forever reduces the incidence of sexual assault, or whether it merely reduces the incidence of sexual assault whose victims are not in prison. In the latter case, support for imprisoning folks would seem to entail belief in the claim that people in prison do not have the same right to freedom from sexual assault that other people have; otherwise, if sexual assault is always bad and the amount of sexual assault is more or less constant, why go to the trouble of concentrating it in prisons?
From TFA, Downing seems to have sexually assaulted Stamp. Some sort of measure should be taken to figure out what motivated the assault, determine what type of sexual assault the perpetrator is likely to commit in future, and minimize the chances of that happening again. However, people who advocate sending folks to 21st-century US prisons may think they deplore sexual assault, but in fact they likely do not.
(And also, Brian Downing, and everyone else in the vicinity, even if junk had remained in pants, what the fuck? And also: yes, college football, nuke from orbit; legal drinking age, lower to 16; sales tax on alcohol, raise to 100%, etc.)
posted by kengraham at 1:16 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
Indeed. Moreover, given that there were an estimated 216000 unique victims of sexual assualts in US prisons in 2008, from a total inmate population of a hair over ten times that number, a ten-month prison sentence is also, roughly, a sentence to "sexual assault with probability about 8%". I'd wager this probability is vastly higher than the probability that Brian Downing will be sexually assaulted in the next ten months if he is not imprisoned, and very probably higher than the probability that he'll sexually assault anyone else in the next ten months.
More to the point, statistics like these raise the question of whether even locking a rapist up forever reduces the incidence of sexual assault, or whether it merely reduces the incidence of sexual assault whose victims are not in prison. In the latter case, support for imprisoning folks would seem to entail belief in the claim that people in prison do not have the same right to freedom from sexual assault that other people have; otherwise, if sexual assault is always bad and the amount of sexual assault is more or less constant, why go to the trouble of concentrating it in prisons?
From TFA, Downing seems to have sexually assaulted Stamp. Some sort of measure should be taken to figure out what motivated the assault, determine what type of sexual assault the perpetrator is likely to commit in future, and minimize the chances of that happening again. However, people who advocate sending folks to 21st-century US prisons may think they deplore sexual assault, but in fact they likely do not.
(And also, Brian Downing, and everyone else in the vicinity, even if junk had remained in pants, what the fuck? And also: yes, college football, nuke from orbit; legal drinking age, lower to 16; sales tax on alcohol, raise to 100%, etc.)
posted by kengraham at 1:16 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
To put this gay in jail (at the risk of real sexual assault) and ruin his life is just moronic.
I really hope this was some kind of typo or something (though u and a are nowhere near one another on my keyboard).
posted by Dysk at 2:19 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
I really hope this was some kind of typo or something (though u and a are nowhere near one another on my keyboard).
posted by Dysk at 2:19 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
"I really hope this was some kind of typo or something (though u and a are nowhere near one another on my keyboard)."
It is actually a pretty easy typo to make between Dutch and English - vowels mix together like a blendtec infomercial.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:40 PM on November 17, 2012
It is actually a pretty easy typo to make between Dutch and English - vowels mix together like a blendtec infomercial.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:40 PM on November 17, 2012
Did you want to nuke all pop music festivals from space due to violence or riots at shows, which happen from time to time? Nothing excuses the assault on the Texas fan, as linked above, and no one deserves to get teabagged, etc., but it's not college football's fault, precisely. If it weren't that, it would be something else, more than likely, down the line. It's akin to blaming New Orleans (which would, I suppose, could be popularly called "The Hubig's Pie Defense"). The amount of violence and assaults that occur in connection to college and football is incredibly low, in reality, and especially low as compared to what goes on in regular American life for many people. Was anyone murdered elsewhere in New Orleans on the night this occurred? Did anybody write about the perp or the victim in that case? No, because it wasn't so unusual and didn't involve a big, nationally-televised sports event or YouTube.
posted by raysmj at 5:19 PM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by raysmj at 5:19 PM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
The amount of violence and assaults that occur in connection to college and football is incredibly low, in reality, and especially low as compared to what goes on in regular American life for many people.
That's possibly true. The "nuke from orbit" sentiment derives largely from the public nuisance factor, as a person who lives near a giant college stadium and teaches at the associated college. In all kinds of respects, the students, the institution, and the community would probably be better off were the emphasis on football to be seriously reduced; I'm sure the resulting gaps in the local and university economies could be filled, and that we'd all benefit from having one fewer reason for people to behave like the folks in TFA's purple T-shirt picture.
Was anyone murdered elsewhere in New Orleans on the night this occurred? Did anybody write about the perp or the victim in that case? No, because it wasn't so unusual and didn't involve a big, nationally-televised sports event or YouTube.
That's an interesting observation about journalism, or something, but since it would unfortunately be way easier (although difficult) to remove college-football-as-giant-institution from the society than it would be to remove the structural problems that make violence a reality for many people, and since it's hard to see how objecting to college-football-as-mass-insanity precludes objecting to those structural problems, I'm not sure what your point is.
posted by kengraham at 6:02 PM on November 17, 2012
That's possibly true. The "nuke from orbit" sentiment derives largely from the public nuisance factor, as a person who lives near a giant college stadium and teaches at the associated college. In all kinds of respects, the students, the institution, and the community would probably be better off were the emphasis on football to be seriously reduced; I'm sure the resulting gaps in the local and university economies could be filled, and that we'd all benefit from having one fewer reason for people to behave like the folks in TFA's purple T-shirt picture.
Was anyone murdered elsewhere in New Orleans on the night this occurred? Did anybody write about the perp or the victim in that case? No, because it wasn't so unusual and didn't involve a big, nationally-televised sports event or YouTube.
That's an interesting observation about journalism, or something, but since it would unfortunately be way easier (although difficult) to remove college-football-as-giant-institution from the society than it would be to remove the structural problems that make violence a reality for many people, and since it's hard to see how objecting to college-football-as-mass-insanity precludes objecting to those structural problems, I'm not sure what your point is.
posted by kengraham at 6:02 PM on November 17, 2012
Are you just trying to argue with me for no good reason? I'm not saying anything obscure or difficult. I'm more than into getting into structural problems re violence in America, but talking about that is more useful than going on about nuking college football, which causes relatively few problems with violence in the United States as compared with a thousand other things (and one of them is societal attitudes toward alcohol, but people would get shitfaced even if college football was around or not--in many college stadiums, you have to sneak alcohol in illegally anyway or at least this had been the case until fairly recently, to my knowledge; colleges do tend to enforce laws against underage drinking in student sections, regardless).
posted by raysmj at 6:20 PM on November 17, 2012
posted by raysmj at 6:20 PM on November 17, 2012
One notable thing, btw: Downing never went to the game (nor did the victim, for that matter). He watched the game at The Rusty Nail, a bar that's a good half-hour walk from the Superdome. If he'd actually gone the game, he would not have been able to buy beer after halftime.
posted by raysmj at 6:33 PM on November 17, 2012
posted by raysmj at 6:33 PM on November 17, 2012
I just think this is an interesting example of the principle that sexual assault isnt about sex, its about power.
I think this is true, also interesting in light of the fact that sexual humiliation was the intent even if sexual gratification wasn't sought.
posted by stoneandstar at 7:00 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think this is true, also interesting in light of the fact that sexual humiliation was the intent even if sexual gratification wasn't sought.
posted by stoneandstar at 7:00 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
few problems with violence in the United States as compared with a thousand other things
Again, true. Clarifying, here, that my reason for advocating "nuking from orbit" has little to do with violence (so violence is seen, without obscurity or difficulty, to be mostly irrelevant, here), and more to do with the general idea that it's bad to have giant focal points for various asshole-impulses built into the culture.
Drinking in the stadium isn't really relevant here, either. Nor, as the example of Brian Downing shows, is sports-encouraged tribalist drunken stupid assholery confined to students. I think the fact that Downing is 32 years old gets at the reason for the orbit-nuking advocacy: apparently, grown-ass people can get seriously worked up about something that has nothing to do with them, somehow use it as a pretext to be a douchebag, and behave in ways that range from mildly inconsiderate (e.g. my town's bike lanes' game-day broken-glass minefields) to horrific (e.g. sexual assault).
This leaves aside all of the institutional weirdness that results, for a university and its community, from having a Major Football Program. This is the third university with which I've had an affiliation, and the first in the US and the first to have a sports team that is a genuinely big deal to anyone but the folks on it and their friends. The difference in the culture of the university is large, and, I think, not positive. I don't have any problem with drunken hijinks qua drunken hijinks, and, by and large, I think having a bunch of students around is a positive social force. The drunken hijinks, though, seem to be sinister and a little fascist when their pretext is "hurf durf football" rather than "Hey! It's Tuesday!".
By "nuke from orbit", I just mean "radically scale back, having developed some perspective".
posted by kengraham at 7:01 PM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
Again, true. Clarifying, here, that my reason for advocating "nuking from orbit" has little to do with violence (so violence is seen, without obscurity or difficulty, to be mostly irrelevant, here), and more to do with the general idea that it's bad to have giant focal points for various asshole-impulses built into the culture.
Drinking in the stadium isn't really relevant here, either. Nor, as the example of Brian Downing shows, is sports-encouraged tribalist drunken stupid assholery confined to students. I think the fact that Downing is 32 years old gets at the reason for the orbit-nuking advocacy: apparently, grown-ass people can get seriously worked up about something that has nothing to do with them, somehow use it as a pretext to be a douchebag, and behave in ways that range from mildly inconsiderate (e.g. my town's bike lanes' game-day broken-glass minefields) to horrific (e.g. sexual assault).
This leaves aside all of the institutional weirdness that results, for a university and its community, from having a Major Football Program. This is the third university with which I've had an affiliation, and the first in the US and the first to have a sports team that is a genuinely big deal to anyone but the folks on it and their friends. The difference in the culture of the university is large, and, I think, not positive. I don't have any problem with drunken hijinks qua drunken hijinks, and, by and large, I think having a bunch of students around is a positive social force. The drunken hijinks, though, seem to be sinister and a little fascist when their pretext is "hurf durf football" rather than "Hey! It's Tuesday!".
By "nuke from orbit", I just mean "radically scale back, having developed some perspective".
posted by kengraham at 7:01 PM on November 17, 2012 [2 favorites]
Thousands upon thousands of other people went to the Superdome to watch the game, countless numbers watched in bars in NOLA and elsewhere. (And I do think it's at least somewhat relevant: Why would you travel five hours away and then go to watch the game in a bar, when you're 32? And I've been to the Rusty Nail. It's not even remotely exotic, even out of the New Orleans context) I can agree that college sports is crazy as far as funding levels go as compared to funding for academics go, and they're not always money-makers, can be money-losers/money-wasters. But that's a whole 'nother issue. There is no sports-related violence epidemic in America.
posted by raysmj at 7:15 PM on November 17, 2012
posted by raysmj at 7:15 PM on November 17, 2012
There is no sports-related violence epidemic in America.
I never said there was. You asked why people advocated "nuking college football from orbit", and I gave some reasons that don't involve hypothetical violence epidemics.
posted by kengraham at 7:23 PM on November 17, 2012
I never said there was. You asked why people advocated "nuking college football from orbit", and I gave some reasons that don't involve hypothetical violence epidemics.
posted by kengraham at 7:23 PM on November 17, 2012
I don't have any problem with drunken hijinks qua drunken hijinks. Those can lead to assault. So why not? You have a problem with football culture. As noted, I do see a problem with funding levels (and treatment of football players, the ridiculousness of the "student-athlete" thing, etc.). But I will not agree that there's a big problem with football and off-the-field violence, no more than there is with any other sport or big event (say, national elections, a epic, mass-scale orgy of doucheyness this year!). Go to Boston and check out riot police after an NBA final. I've seen that, even heard a shuttle bus driver joke with me about his cop brother polishing his helmet for the night. (Long story. Just happened to be in Boston on the night of the next-to-the-last NBA Finals game against the Lakers, in 2008.)
posted by raysmj at 7:47 PM on November 17, 2012
posted by raysmj at 7:47 PM on November 17, 2012
You have a problem with football culture.
Right, one that does not have to do, mainly, with violence. Why are you talking to me as though I were stating that my main issue with college football culture has to do with violence, when I've explicitly said that it doesn't?
"Doucheyness" intersects with violence, but there is much "doucheyness" that isn't violence, and there is occasional violence that is not "douchey" (perhaps). Football culture, in my opinion, encourages behaviour that could reasonably be called "douchey", but this does not mean that I think football culture encourages violence.
(say, national elections, a epic, mass-scale orgy of doucheyness this year!)
Indeed, party politics often encourages some of the very same kinds of douchey attitude that rabid sports fandom often encourages.
posted by kengraham at 8:19 PM on November 17, 2012
Right, one that does not have to do, mainly, with violence. Why are you talking to me as though I were stating that my main issue with college football culture has to do with violence, when I've explicitly said that it doesn't?
"Doucheyness" intersects with violence, but there is much "doucheyness" that isn't violence, and there is occasional violence that is not "douchey" (perhaps). Football culture, in my opinion, encourages behaviour that could reasonably be called "douchey", but this does not mean that I think football culture encourages violence.
(say, national elections, a epic, mass-scale orgy of doucheyness this year!)
Indeed, party politics often encourages some of the very same kinds of douchey attitude that rabid sports fandom often encourages.
posted by kengraham at 8:19 PM on November 17, 2012
You directly linked it to sexual assault above.
As did TFA. (I'm not sure how to post a few links to news articles about several recent violent incidents, including sexual assaults, in my community in the environment of Mass Aggressive Chaos of football game nights, because I don't want to post explicit personal information -- my location -- but such links exist.) This is different from claiming that there's an "epidemic of sports-related violence", and it's not the main part of my problem with college sports culture.
However, perhaps it should be.
posted by kengraham at 8:55 PM on November 17, 2012
As did TFA. (I'm not sure how to post a few links to news articles about several recent violent incidents, including sexual assaults, in my community in the environment of Mass Aggressive Chaos of football game nights, because I don't want to post explicit personal information -- my location -- but such links exist.) This is different from claiming that there's an "epidemic of sports-related violence", and it's not the main part of my problem with college sports culture.
However, perhaps it should be.
posted by kengraham at 8:55 PM on November 17, 2012
College sports or all sports? Football or basketball. One of those links is about basketball.
Anyway, the article in the FPP went on and on about strippers in the French Quarter and such too, and had various insinuation about the city's looseness and such. The Rusty Nail is, however, at the end of a residential and arts district, and not a brief hop from the Quarter. The article has a little film noir feel to imply that, oh, here they were in the big exotic, crazy city. I didn't read about any direct link between assaults and football culture.
posted by raysmj at 9:26 PM on November 17, 2012
Anyway, the article in the FPP went on and on about strippers in the French Quarter and such too, and had various insinuation about the city's looseness and such. The Rusty Nail is, however, at the end of a residential and arts district, and not a brief hop from the Quarter. The article has a little film noir feel to imply that, oh, here they were in the big exotic, crazy city. I didn't read about any direct link between assaults and football culture.
posted by raysmj at 9:26 PM on November 17, 2012
My alma mater had a, uh, bit of a scandal a while back that some folks may have read something about, and I got into some of the same back-and-forth about college football culture in several threads here on the blue.
One point I never made then, but probably should have, is that prior to the infamous post-Joe-Paterno-firing riot, there were four other sizable riots on the Penn State campus in the past 15 years or so. One of them was after a big football win, one was after a big basketball win (Penn State is not a big-time basketball school by any stretch of the imagination) and two were during the weekend of the Central Pennsylvania Festival of the Arts.
I was on campus during both of the Arts Fest weekend riots, and I can assure you that 19 year old kids do not tear down lampposts, set fire to couches, or turn over cars because they're outraged by the prices of charm jewelry and oil paintings. There was no football game, no basketball game -- nothing but a bunch of people drinking and carrying on. Yet the damages from those two riots were similar in scale to those during the post-Paterno riots.
I say this not because 3 out of 5 riots not being football related proves anything, or that 2 out of 5 riots not being sports-related proves anything, but because 5 out of 5 riots contained the ingredients that I think did most of the work during those riots:
posted by tonycpsu at 10:07 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
One point I never made then, but probably should have, is that prior to the infamous post-Joe-Paterno-firing riot, there were four other sizable riots on the Penn State campus in the past 15 years or so. One of them was after a big football win, one was after a big basketball win (Penn State is not a big-time basketball school by any stretch of the imagination) and two were during the weekend of the Central Pennsylvania Festival of the Arts.
I was on campus during both of the Arts Fest weekend riots, and I can assure you that 19 year old kids do not tear down lampposts, set fire to couches, or turn over cars because they're outraged by the prices of charm jewelry and oil paintings. There was no football game, no basketball game -- nothing but a bunch of people drinking and carrying on. Yet the damages from those two riots were similar in scale to those during the post-Paterno riots.
I say this not because 3 out of 5 riots not being football related proves anything, or that 2 out of 5 riots not being sports-related proves anything, but because 5 out of 5 riots contained the ingredients that I think did most of the work during those riots:
- drunk people
- young people
- drunk young people
posted by tonycpsu at 10:07 PM on November 17, 2012 [1 favorite]
legal drinking age, lower to 16
GREAT! Think of the cross promotional opportunities for driving schools and funeral homes!
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:07 AM on November 18, 2012
GREAT! Think of the cross promotional opportunities for driving schools and funeral homes!
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:07 AM on November 18, 2012
snuffleupagus: " GREAT! Think of the cross promotional opportunities for driving schools and funeral homes!"
Yes, let's let kids have a few years of driving under their belts first because experienced drivers are better drunk drivers.
Wait, what?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:54 AM on November 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yes, let's let kids have a few years of driving under their belts first because experienced drivers are better drunk drivers.
Wait, what?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:54 AM on November 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
Pick one, allow it first. Introducing both simultaneously is asking for trouble in terms of too much hazard all at once. Or are you suggesting its a good idea to let a drunk 16 year old decide when he's safe to drive home? Let starts wth drinking decisions, or driving desicions. From there, economics and logistics pushes driving first, even if the other way around would make more sense in terms of safety.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:08 PM on November 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:08 PM on November 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
And for what it's worth, yes, the more experience you have with either driving or drinking, the better you can judge when you should not be doing the other.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:14 PM on November 18, 2012
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:14 PM on November 18, 2012
Pick one, allow it first.
I agree. In fact, maybe individuals should be able to pick. Since states have non-driver IDs, it would be easy enough to stipulate that (1) one can have a driver's license or a non-driver ID, but not both, and (2) alcohol may not be sold to people under 21 who have a driver's license, but may be sold to people who, when asked to prove they are over 16, show a non-driver ID. This is of course open to being gamed, but it's not like the present system prevents underage drinking very effectively, either.
Under such a system, people who genuinely need to drive would choose driving; people in urban places might tend to choose drinking, and postpone getting a driver's license until 21. It's entrusting 16-year-olds to operate heavy machinery in public that's crazy, but some 16-year-olds need to drive (they might have jobs to get to, or need to transport family members, etc.), and they should. For many others, it's not really necessary, and cars and alcohol should be treated as the mutually exclusive slightly-dangerous recreational opportunities that, for many high-school-aged folks, is all they are. I'm not sure it's true for the majority that:
"From there, economics and logistics pushes driving first,
and in any case that's something we should be trying to move away from as a society; fortunately, this is reflected in the (IIRC) shrinking proportion of teenagers with driving licenses.
(I'm not even sure that it needs to be "one at a time", either. In the UK (which has its own Drunken Fuckwits In Public problem), for example, the nominal drinking age is 18 and one can get a driving license at 18. Does anyone have numbers on per-mile-driven drunk-driving accidents in the UK versus the US?)
The drinking culture in the US is bizarre; in a sane culture, one is supposed to be bored with the more extreme types of alcoholic excess by one's early 20s, not still experimenting with them. There are all kinds of ways to drink responsibly, and all kinds of context-appropriate levels of willful impairment, and it doesn't take more than a couple of years of drinking now and again to figure it out, if it hasn't been built up by the culture into a Big Deal and a Sexy Transgressive Activity, when actually it's just a mildly entertaining thing people have been doing, apparently, since the dawn of agriculture, with some risks and some benefits, that shouldn't be treated any more or less seriously than necessary.
It's totally acceptable for someone Stamp's age to take things too far with booze, since he's young enough that it's plausibly part of learning to drink responsibly (this makes it extra-shitty to take advantage of his impairment for the adult, non-experimentally shitfaced lulz). It's better that that experimentation is allowed to happen openly, in a culture that finds it mildly stupid and expects one to grow out of it, than made to happen semi-clandestinely, in the face of a culture that simultaneously officially disapproves of and encourages alcoholic (and every other type of) immoderation.
posted by kengraham at 1:46 PM on November 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
I agree. In fact, maybe individuals should be able to pick. Since states have non-driver IDs, it would be easy enough to stipulate that (1) one can have a driver's license or a non-driver ID, but not both, and (2) alcohol may not be sold to people under 21 who have a driver's license, but may be sold to people who, when asked to prove they are over 16, show a non-driver ID. This is of course open to being gamed, but it's not like the present system prevents underage drinking very effectively, either.
Under such a system, people who genuinely need to drive would choose driving; people in urban places might tend to choose drinking, and postpone getting a driver's license until 21. It's entrusting 16-year-olds to operate heavy machinery in public that's crazy, but some 16-year-olds need to drive (they might have jobs to get to, or need to transport family members, etc.), and they should. For many others, it's not really necessary, and cars and alcohol should be treated as the mutually exclusive slightly-dangerous recreational opportunities that, for many high-school-aged folks, is all they are. I'm not sure it's true for the majority that:
"From there, economics and logistics pushes driving first,
and in any case that's something we should be trying to move away from as a society; fortunately, this is reflected in the (IIRC) shrinking proportion of teenagers with driving licenses.
(I'm not even sure that it needs to be "one at a time", either. In the UK (which has its own Drunken Fuckwits In Public problem), for example, the nominal drinking age is 18 and one can get a driving license at 18. Does anyone have numbers on per-mile-driven drunk-driving accidents in the UK versus the US?)
The drinking culture in the US is bizarre; in a sane culture, one is supposed to be bored with the more extreme types of alcoholic excess by one's early 20s, not still experimenting with them. There are all kinds of ways to drink responsibly, and all kinds of context-appropriate levels of willful impairment, and it doesn't take more than a couple of years of drinking now and again to figure it out, if it hasn't been built up by the culture into a Big Deal and a Sexy Transgressive Activity, when actually it's just a mildly entertaining thing people have been doing, apparently, since the dawn of agriculture, with some risks and some benefits, that shouldn't be treated any more or less seriously than necessary.
It's totally acceptable for someone Stamp's age to take things too far with booze, since he's young enough that it's plausibly part of learning to drink responsibly (this makes it extra-shitty to take advantage of his impairment for the adult, non-experimentally shitfaced lulz). It's better that that experimentation is allowed to happen openly, in a culture that finds it mildly stupid and expects one to grow out of it, than made to happen semi-clandestinely, in the face of a culture that simultaneously officially disapproves of and encourages alcoholic (and every other type of) immoderation.
posted by kengraham at 1:46 PM on November 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
I doubt that prison will teach him this either, but his remarkable lack of empathy with the victim or any attempt - sincere or otherwise - to apologize suggests that really he hasn't learned anything beyond don't get video-taped doing this sort of thing.
This may be what his lawyers are advising. While the criminal proceedings are finished he could face a civil suit. Apologizing unfortunately gives ammunition for such a case. I wish it weren't so, but expressing empathy and remorse is counter productive unless it is directed to a judge.
What a sad story.
posted by dgran at 12:21 PM on November 19, 2012
This may be what his lawyers are advising. While the criminal proceedings are finished he could face a civil suit. Apologizing unfortunately gives ammunition for such a case. I wish it weren't so, but expressing empathy and remorse is counter productive unless it is directed to a judge.
What a sad story.
posted by dgran at 12:21 PM on November 19, 2012
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