I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture.
January 22, 2013 10:50 PM Subscribe
In Golden Waters, Fatlantis and Libertopia are Something Awful goon-written short story collections (and a short story) about the predicted failure of libertarian separatist colonies. They're inspired by the Seasteading Institute, a group that wants to build a floating libertarian island (and yes, they did inspire China Mieville's 'The Scar').
They should serve as a warning to Glenn Beck, who intends to create a self-sustaining community called Independence Park. The Goon fiction has already started, but its more likely to succeed than The Citadel, a proposed survivalist gun fortress in Idaho.
Bonus SA short story collection: Aluminum Sky, a series about the Malatorans, a group who wanted to build an island where they could put their brains into robot cyborg dragon bodies.
This is why we need Aquaman.
posted by SPrintF at 11:09 PM on January 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 11:09 PM on January 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Glenn Beck's Independence Park is pretty sure to be as successful as any of his projects... at taking large amounts of money out of the pockets of his gullible followers and into his own offshore bank accounts.
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 11:11 PM on January 22, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 11:11 PM on January 22, 2013 [9 favorites]
If anyone does create some little libertarian utopia, it'll inevitably be propped up from the outside by people who don't want to see their political experiment publicly fail, so I think any kind of extreme scenario is out. Kind of a pity.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:11 PM on January 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:11 PM on January 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
One could argue that he could make a successful business model out of asking the rest of society to pay him to keep his little island functional, and containing those guys there.
posted by Archelaus at 11:15 PM on January 22, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 11:15 PM on January 22, 2013 [10 favorites]
So what you're saying is Glenn Beck is a welfare queen taking from the 1%, the producers that made this country what it is, to fund his lavish taker lifestyle.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:22 PM on January 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:22 PM on January 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
Like all stupid philosophies Libertarians deserve the chance to have their own piles of skulls.
posted by Artw at 11:24 PM on January 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:24 PM on January 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
I feel like we should all donate some money for these people to have their own stupid island if they guarantee that they'll never come back.
posted by empath at 11:28 PM on January 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by empath at 11:28 PM on January 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
So... going by that Citadel blueprint they have an arms factory but no space for actual arable land or grassland for farm animals.
Priorities, man.
posted by zennish at 11:32 PM on January 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
Priorities, man.
posted by zennish at 11:32 PM on January 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think Beck should go ahead with Independence Park, obviously as its mayor. There will be a high wall built around the perimeter to stop intruders or defectors, and the experiment will be allowed to run its course.
And nobody will save them from each other.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:44 PM on January 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
And nobody will save them from each other.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:44 PM on January 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sorta how Sealand was gonna be Warez island, or Reddit Island was going to be Fedora Fjord.
posted by hellojed at 11:47 PM on January 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by hellojed at 11:47 PM on January 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I do wish someone would take a serious shot at putting together a libertarian community. Somebody has got to own a few thousand acres where they could run an experiment.
I have to say though that one of the major hurdles they seem to face -- and this is definitely only my own experience speaking here -- is that libertarians don't seem to like each other very much. They form small cliques but that's pretty much where it ends. They trust their own clique but not the others.
Maybe it's a group size thing, where in order for larger groups to function members need to surrender some of their autonomy. I could definitely see that being a problem.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:51 PM on January 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
I have to say though that one of the major hurdles they seem to face -- and this is definitely only my own experience speaking here -- is that libertarians don't seem to like each other very much. They form small cliques but that's pretty much where it ends. They trust their own clique but not the others.
Maybe it's a group size thing, where in order for larger groups to function members need to surrender some of their autonomy. I could definitely see that being a problem.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:51 PM on January 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
Also, Beck's plan isn't "going Galt". He wants to make a theme park.
He would never really go Galt, because that would involve him having to shut up.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:53 PM on January 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
He would never really go Galt, because that would involve him having to shut up.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:53 PM on January 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
As a former field biologist who has spent months upon months living in remote tents, in hastily erected shanties and on boats with small groups of people I just met and little or no mod cons I would like to pre-emptively point and laugh at these planned communities. They're going to kill each other.
But this will answer the long standing question of what would happen if all the weird guys ended up in the same camp one summer.
posted by fshgrl at 11:53 PM on January 22, 2013 [19 favorites]
But this will answer the long standing question of what would happen if all the weird guys ended up in the same camp one summer.
posted by fshgrl at 11:53 PM on January 22, 2013 [19 favorites]
Actually the only way I can see for these communities to avoid dissolving due to terminal internal strife is if they declare war on each other. That should give them something to rally the troops around.
posted by fshgrl at 11:55 PM on January 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 11:55 PM on January 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
I do wish someone would take a serious shot at putting together a libertarian community. Somebody has got to own a few thousand acres where they could run an experiment.
It seems to me that 'libertarian community' is an oxymoron.
posted by empath at 11:56 PM on January 22, 2013 [8 favorites]
It seems to me that 'libertarian community' is an oxymoron.
posted by empath at 11:56 PM on January 22, 2013 [8 favorites]
I only knew of one such Something Awful fiction collection, and it hasn't been mentioned yet: The Last Days of Capitalism.
posted by BiggerJ at 11:59 PM on January 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by BiggerJ at 11:59 PM on January 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
They're going to kill each other.
If they were truly going to live in these places, certainly. But the first libertarians who buy homes on the island or in Beckland will just be doing it to make money off their investment. It's the true believers who get stuck with the properties after they've already been flipped a bunch of times who will have to live there and suffer the consequences.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:08 AM on January 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
If they were truly going to live in these places, certainly. But the first libertarians who buy homes on the island or in Beckland will just be doing it to make money off their investment. It's the true believers who get stuck with the properties after they've already been flipped a bunch of times who will have to live there and suffer the consequences.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:08 AM on January 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'd chip in, as long as there were cameras everywhere and we got to watch them go all Lord of the Flies on each other. Glenn Beck == Piggy?
posted by Talanvor at 12:22 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Talanvor at 12:22 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Is Mediafire just loaded with (repeat) ads or is my browser compromised?
posted by mrgrimm at 12:32 AM on January 23, 2013
posted by mrgrimm at 12:32 AM on January 23, 2013
Detroit wants in on the action too.
Detroit — As the broken city thinks big and radically about its future, a developer is stepping forward with a revolutionary idea: Sell the city's Belle Isle park for $1 billion to private investors who will transform it into a free-market utopia.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 12:32 AM on January 23, 2013
Detroit — As the broken city thinks big and radically about its future, a developer is stepping forward with a revolutionary idea: Sell the city's Belle Isle park for $1 billion to private investors who will transform it into a free-market utopia.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 12:32 AM on January 23, 2013
It seems to me that 'libertarian community' is an oxymoron.
Perhaps a better thought experiment would be replacing "libertarian" with "anarchocommunist."
Either way, they're fucked.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:35 AM on January 23, 2013
Perhaps a better thought experiment would be replacing "libertarian" with "anarchocommunist."
Either way, they're fucked.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:35 AM on January 23, 2013
Detroit — As the broken city thinks big and radically about its future, a developer is stepping forward with a revolutionary idea: Sell the city's Belle Isle park for $1 billion to private investors who will transform it into a free-market utopia.
They could call it Delta City.
posted by dumbland at 12:46 AM on January 23, 2013 [12 favorites]
They could call it Delta City.
posted by dumbland at 12:46 AM on January 23, 2013 [12 favorites]
Interesting comment from the Something Awful thread in the seventh link:
"It's been so obvious that Glenn Beck has slowly been transitioning to a L. Ron Hubbard/David Koresh kind of religious cult leader. He wants more money and he's crazy."
I can sort of see the Hubbard comparison, but Beck isn't crazy enough to go Koresh. He's kind of halfheartedly building a cult of personality with the conspiracy theories and the rallies, but unlike Hubbard, Beck can't construct his own religion. He's stuck with the premade pieces of other ideologies and followers who only see him as one of many right-wing prophets. If he started telling his audience to turn off Fox News and only listen to him, and they actually did it, then he might be something to worry about.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:56 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
"It's been so obvious that Glenn Beck has slowly been transitioning to a L. Ron Hubbard/David Koresh kind of religious cult leader. He wants more money and he's crazy."
I can sort of see the Hubbard comparison, but Beck isn't crazy enough to go Koresh. He's kind of halfheartedly building a cult of personality with the conspiracy theories and the rallies, but unlike Hubbard, Beck can't construct his own religion. He's stuck with the premade pieces of other ideologies and followers who only see him as one of many right-wing prophets. If he started telling his audience to turn off Fox News and only listen to him, and they actually did it, then he might be something to worry about.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:56 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Glenn Beck, who once enjoyed the fruits of shilling for goldline, knows exactly what he's doing.
If you think he cares whether it works you don't understand him at all.
posted by clarknova at 1:11 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you think he cares whether it works you don't understand him at all.
posted by clarknova at 1:11 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
The fiction really starts on page 15 of that SA thread. I was all ready to mock Beck's vision but the more people keep comparing it to the gorgeous Walled City of Kowloon and pointing out his tirades against animals the better it starts to look.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 1:31 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 1:31 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
It seems to me that 'libertarian community' is an oxymoron
As an idea it works -- a community of people who's behavior is such that a bare minimum of legal structure is required -- but it definitely works better at a tech level where there's no assumption of water and electrical service or sewage systems. Or telecommunication systems for that matter. Those four areas cry out for shared infrastructure, and once you've got that you're on the path to having a government.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:34 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
As an idea it works -- a community of people who's behavior is such that a bare minimum of legal structure is required -- but it definitely works better at a tech level where there's no assumption of water and electrical service or sewage systems. Or telecommunication systems for that matter. Those four areas cry out for shared infrastructure, and once you've got that you're on the path to having a government.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:34 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
They're inspired by the Seasteading Institute, a group that wants to build a floating libertarian island
Oh for a sub and some torpedoes...
posted by Skeptic at 2:01 AM on January 23, 2013
Oh for a sub and some torpedoes...
posted by Skeptic at 2:01 AM on January 23, 2013
Interesting fiction perhaps, but misses the mark politically. Sea travel remains exceedingly authoritarian even today, so libertarians could improve matters fairly easily, ala microstates.
In particular, there is only one context in which I've heard about the Seasteading Institute, namely their festival Ephemerisle in the Sacramento River Delta. In other words, the Seasteading Institute throws a much better party than Something Awful. :P
As I understand it, there aren't any ticket sales for Ephemerisle, making it vaguely like a Rainbow Gathering but with a libertarian ideology. Amusingly, people should contribute enough toilet capacity on the boat they stay on, meaning Ephemerisle's toilets should cause less environmental damage per person than the Rainbow Gathering's trench latrines. I'd imagine the common island structures are build by camps.
I'll definitely find my way to Ephemerisle one year, but this year it conflicts with Nowhere in Spain.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:02 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
In particular, there is only one context in which I've heard about the Seasteading Institute, namely their festival Ephemerisle in the Sacramento River Delta. In other words, the Seasteading Institute throws a much better party than Something Awful. :P
As I understand it, there aren't any ticket sales for Ephemerisle, making it vaguely like a Rainbow Gathering but with a libertarian ideology. Amusingly, people should contribute enough toilet capacity on the boat they stay on, meaning Ephemerisle's toilets should cause less environmental damage per person than the Rainbow Gathering's trench latrines. I'd imagine the common island structures are build by camps.
I'll definitely find my way to Ephemerisle one year, but this year it conflicts with Nowhere in Spain.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:02 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
libertarians could improve matters fairly easily, ala microstates
Microstates improve things? I don't think so.
(Also, sea travel is "authoritarian" for very good reasons: as somebody has pointed out upthread, have you never heard of the expression "we are all in the same boat"? Libertarianism and confined spaces are a difficult fit.)
posted by Skeptic at 2:34 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Microstates improve things? I don't think so.
(Also, sea travel is "authoritarian" for very good reasons: as somebody has pointed out upthread, have you never heard of the expression "we are all in the same boat"? Libertarianism and confined spaces are a difficult fit.)
posted by Skeptic at 2:34 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
The accumulated filth of all their money and business will foam up about their waists and all the gun nuts and tax protestors will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "Okie dokie, citizen!"
posted by 1adam12 at 3:11 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by 1adam12 at 3:11 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm demanding my money back if no-one's written Transcendental Wild Boats.
posted by comealongpole at 3:43 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by comealongpole at 3:43 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Utopian communities were very common in the 19th Century. So maybe this is like beards coming back.
posted by thelonius at 3:53 AM on January 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 3:53 AM on January 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
There's a really great joke to be made which facetiously compares Independence Park to Brook Farm, but I just can't manage it at 6:45am.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 3:55 AM on January 23, 2013
posted by RonButNotStupid at 3:55 AM on January 23, 2013
As soon as you have a means of enforcing performance of contracts, you have a government.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:10 AM on January 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:10 AM on January 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
..its more likely to succeed than The Citadel, a proposed survivalist gun fortress in Idaho.
...
So... going by that Citadel blueprint they have an arms factory but no space for actual arable land or grassland for farm animals.
This whole scheme sounds like nothing so much as a really committed viral marketing campaign for new Fallout 3 DLC.
posted by indubitable at 4:11 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
...
So... going by that Citadel blueprint they have an arms factory but no space for actual arable land or grassland for farm animals.
This whole scheme sounds like nothing so much as a really committed viral marketing campaign for new Fallout 3 DLC.
posted by indubitable at 4:11 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
I honestly know zilch about the Seasteading Institute's vision. I'm only interested in their Ephemerisle festival personally though, definitely not into living on a boat permanently. Yet, attempts at building utopian communities often improve the world, if only through their failure.
As I said, shared boat ownership should provides an opportunity to erode authoritarian naval traditions, that's something. Yes, seasteaders are definitely confining themselves into small groups that must maintain some consensus for survival, but small groups routinely maintain that high degree of consensus about survival stuff.
There are enough tax shelters in the world that a few movable microstates doesn't change anything really. In theory, American citizens cannot legally use foreign tax shelters anyways because the U.S. taxes on worldwide income. In fact, even the 2555ez form requires some foreign tax home, meaning American avoid no taxes by living in international waters.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:21 AM on January 23, 2013
As I said, shared boat ownership should provides an opportunity to erode authoritarian naval traditions, that's something. Yes, seasteaders are definitely confining themselves into small groups that must maintain some consensus for survival, but small groups routinely maintain that high degree of consensus about survival stuff.
There are enough tax shelters in the world that a few movable microstates doesn't change anything really. In theory, American citizens cannot legally use foreign tax shelters anyways because the U.S. taxes on worldwide income. In fact, even the 2555ez form requires some foreign tax home, meaning American avoid no taxes by living in international waters.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:21 AM on January 23, 2013
Technically the Malatorans don't want to build an island, they want to slaughter the natives on an island off the coast of Africa, because they are under the impression that as white Americans their weaponry and elan will make the primitive Africans a pushover.
(They are terrible, terrible people, or at least they aspire to be.)
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:23 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
(They are terrible, terrible people, or at least they aspire to be.)
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:23 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Citadel blueprint ... This whole scheme sounds like nothing so much as a really committed viral marketing campaign for new Fallout 3 DLC.
My understanding is it is being run by a guy who 30 months for a financial scam.
I see it more as a standard development with an HOA.
But instead of a hook like "use the lake" or "see the woods" the hook is 'guns!'.
Glen's had a lot of hair-brained schemes that never happened. Why it might be fun to mock - why worry 'till land and zoning permits allow the Glen-Beck-as-lord-and-master-of-an-HOA to move forward?
Besides Glen's already got his land/setup. Why would he move to GlenTopia?
posted by rough ashlar at 4:26 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
My understanding is it is being run by a guy who 30 months for a financial scam.
I see it more as a standard development with an HOA.
But instead of a hook like "use the lake" or "see the woods" the hook is 'guns!'.
Glen's had a lot of hair-brained schemes that never happened. Why it might be fun to mock - why worry 'till land and zoning permits allow the Glen-Beck-as-lord-and-master-of-an-HOA to move forward?
Besides Glen's already got his land/setup. Why would he move to GlenTopia?
posted by rough ashlar at 4:26 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
In any case, there are two fundamental financial problems with seasteading : land is cheap most places and boats depreciate in value.
We've observed that native born populations are declining in all nations with much expensive land, and populations should start declining as women's rights and education catches up elsewhere. All the original arguments for seasteading fail because they were based upon malthusianism or running out of land.
You might argue that, once world populations start declining, land should always lose value too, well dwellings always losing value represents a wonderful future for humanity. Yet, I cannot imagine houses losing value faster than boats.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:48 AM on January 23, 2013
We've observed that native born populations are declining in all nations with much expensive land, and populations should start declining as women's rights and education catches up elsewhere. All the original arguments for seasteading fail because they were based upon malthusianism or running out of land.
You might argue that, once world populations start declining, land should always lose value too, well dwellings always losing value represents a wonderful future for humanity. Yet, I cannot imagine houses losing value faster than boats.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:48 AM on January 23, 2013
So... going by that Citadel blueprint they have an arms factory but no space for actual arable land or grassland for farm animals.
Priorities, man.
Everyone, please, I implore you to read the Citadel site, it is a beautiful bit of D&D campaign planning with elaborate detail on everything that doesn't matter and basic needs (like, say, water) elided over. For income streams, they cite "tourism".
Also it's a castle.
posted by The Whelk at 5:31 AM on January 23, 2013 [10 favorites]
Priorities, man.
Everyone, please, I implore you to read the Citadel site, it is a beautiful bit of D&D campaign planning with elaborate detail on everything that doesn't matter and basic needs (like, say, water) elided over. For income streams, they cite "tourism".
Also it's a castle.
posted by The Whelk at 5:31 AM on January 23, 2013 [10 favorites]
Hold the phone, OP - libertarian seasteading projects did not inspire The Scar. (I mean, unless Mieville directly says that they did...but The Scar came out in summer 2002, and thus was planned and written well before this seasteading stuff kicked off.)
This is from the Mieville article, and I think it points more clearly to Mieville's influences:
There also have been genuine countercultural maritime polities, shipboard societies opposed to the despotism of state power, that might provide a genuine inspiration. Since the publication in 2000 of Peter Linebaugh and Marcus Redicker’s The Many-Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners and the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic, any discussion on liberté sur mer must reference the grassroots, democratic pirate “hydrarchies” that the authors rescued less from the condescension of history than from its pantomime audience booing.
Alongside of which I'd probably place the various other SFnal floating/rolling/train-based societies in Le Guin, Delany, etc.
The Scar is about a lot of stuff - there's definitely some swipes at libertarianism in there - but the floating city is explicitly a site of contention, a half-refuge from colonialism. For example, the floating city is absolutely dependent on the land - whether for soil or for certain foods and technologies - but this isn't something that is denied and hand-waved away with claims about libertarian individual autonomy, it's a fact of existence for a bunch of people who are basically the cast-offs of imperialism.
The Scar is a really, really cool book. Truly a towering work of contemporary SF/fantasy.
posted by Frowner at 6:33 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
This is from the Mieville article, and I think it points more clearly to Mieville's influences:
There also have been genuine countercultural maritime polities, shipboard societies opposed to the despotism of state power, that might provide a genuine inspiration. Since the publication in 2000 of Peter Linebaugh and Marcus Redicker’s The Many-Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners and the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic, any discussion on liberté sur mer must reference the grassroots, democratic pirate “hydrarchies” that the authors rescued less from the condescension of history than from its pantomime audience booing.
Alongside of which I'd probably place the various other SFnal floating/rolling/train-based societies in Le Guin, Delany, etc.
The Scar is about a lot of stuff - there's definitely some swipes at libertarianism in there - but the floating city is explicitly a site of contention, a half-refuge from colonialism. For example, the floating city is absolutely dependent on the land - whether for soil or for certain foods and technologies - but this isn't something that is denied and hand-waved away with claims about libertarian individual autonomy, it's a fact of existence for a bunch of people who are basically the cast-offs of imperialism.
The Scar is a really, really cool book. Truly a towering work of contemporary SF/fantasy.
posted by Frowner at 6:33 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
So... going by that Citadel blueprint they have an arms factory but no space for actual arable land or grassland for farm animals.
"We do not sow."
posted by tyllwin at 6:39 AM on January 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
"We do not sow."
posted by tyllwin at 6:39 AM on January 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
i would be more willing to sympathize with SA if it seemed like their chief gripe was with the cruelty of a minarchist-capitalist/anarchocapitalist system and not with the fact that somebody somewhere wants to do something grand and absurd
ixnay on the essentimentray is what i'm trying to say
also "fatlantis" sounds like fat-shaming language and i don't know what their politics are on that
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 7:35 AM on January 23, 2013
ixnay on the essentimentray is what i'm trying to say
also "fatlantis" sounds like fat-shaming language and i don't know what their politics are on that
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 7:35 AM on January 23, 2013
The Free State Project website is still up and running. 2013 Liberty Forum.
posted by bukvich at 7:59 AM on January 23, 2013
posted by bukvich at 7:59 AM on January 23, 2013
But this will answer the long standing question of what would happen if all the weird guys ended up in the same camp one summer.
I'd like to suggest Camp Crystal Lake for these guys.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:01 AM on January 23, 2013
I'd like to suggest Camp Crystal Lake for these guys.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:01 AM on January 23, 2013
And I'm sure that, when GlennBeckistan implodes, the money disappears, and the investors and homeowners are left with nothing, they'll respond like all right-thinking libertarians and lick their wounds, walk away, and take personal responsibility for the results of their own actions and failing to do due-diligence. Not a single lawyer will be called...
posted by Thorzdad at 8:08 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:08 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
From watching Bitcoin's various and frequent implosions and dramatics, Thorzdad, mainly what they do is go "If only there was some kind of central authority that could act when someone stole all our Bitcoins/hacked our website/took down the Bitcoin exchange site we all used to sort of...enforce the rule of law and ensure these things wouldn't happen" with no trace of irony or self-awareness whatsoever.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:32 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:32 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
I recall learning in history class about this group of people who actually did engage in sea-steading to build a platform on which to maintain an identity and form of government.
Oh, right, they're called the Dutch.
Fascinating people. Not very libertarian. It's almost as if building on top of open sea makes you resort to nautical discipline in how your run your affairs.
I wonder why that might be.
posted by ocschwar at 8:40 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
Oh, right, they're called the Dutch.
Fascinating people. Not very libertarian. It's almost as if building on top of open sea makes you resort to nautical discipline in how your run your affairs.
I wonder why that might be.
posted by ocschwar at 8:40 AM on January 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
Beseige The Citadel or breach their walls with field artillery? Decisions, decisions . . .
posted by whuppy at 9:26 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by whuppy at 9:26 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
One of my favorite FPPs was this one, in which we learn that one of the founders of Paypal has funded a project to build a a libertarian paradise on a rig in the middle of the ocean that would, among other things, have looser building codes.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:45 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by dirigibleman at 9:45 AM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
empath: It seems to me that 'libertarian community' is an oxymoron.
But it's not, really. Libertarianism is not anarchy, and there are other possible versions of it rather than a Randian personality-cult or a Paulish Tea Party fantasy.
Libertarianism is like any other political philosophy; it can be viewed as a general principle or has a purity-or-death extremist proposition. I understand why it's not given this benefit of the doubt- the popular exponents of libertarian-ish ideals for the last 30 years have been the worst people ever.
But Libertarianism, while deeply flawed, is a workable philosophy: the Anglosphere was run by libertariansim for some time, we just call it "classical liberalism" now. The United States was founded as a libertarian state. Slavery was an obvious betrayal of these ideals, but it was a betrayal of all American/Western ideals and we don't think all of those ideals are void now.
Libertariansim as expressed in the 18th century is not equipped to deal with a 21st century hyperpower, and a modern version of a Yeoman Farmer Republic is not longer possible because no country will ever again have such an open hand on an entire continent. As commonly expressed today, Libertariansim is not equipped to deal with any state from any century.
But if you see libertarism as less a laundry-list of absolutes that are unique to a radical fringe, and more as a general philopshy of government, then you start to see its influence (positive influence, even) in modern liberalism.
Look, I don't identify as a libertarian because of the company I don't want to keep. And I think the government has a role to play in a lot of things. But coming from the idea of "does government have to do this?" is a pretty reasonable view, and that's a small-"l" libertarian mindset.
posted by spaltavian at 10:03 AM on January 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
But it's not, really. Libertarianism is not anarchy, and there are other possible versions of it rather than a Randian personality-cult or a Paulish Tea Party fantasy.
Libertarianism is like any other political philosophy; it can be viewed as a general principle or has a purity-or-death extremist proposition. I understand why it's not given this benefit of the doubt- the popular exponents of libertarian-ish ideals for the last 30 years have been the worst people ever.
But Libertarianism, while deeply flawed, is a workable philosophy: the Anglosphere was run by libertariansim for some time, we just call it "classical liberalism" now. The United States was founded as a libertarian state. Slavery was an obvious betrayal of these ideals, but it was a betrayal of all American/Western ideals and we don't think all of those ideals are void now.
Libertariansim as expressed in the 18th century is not equipped to deal with a 21st century hyperpower, and a modern version of a Yeoman Farmer Republic is not longer possible because no country will ever again have such an open hand on an entire continent. As commonly expressed today, Libertariansim is not equipped to deal with any state from any century.
But if you see libertarism as less a laundry-list of absolutes that are unique to a radical fringe, and more as a general philopshy of government, then you start to see its influence (positive influence, even) in modern liberalism.
Look, I don't identify as a libertarian because of the company I don't want to keep. And I think the government has a role to play in a lot of things. But coming from the idea of "does government have to do this?" is a pretty reasonable view, and that's a small-"l" libertarian mindset.
posted by spaltavian at 10:03 AM on January 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
Libertarianism in the 18th century wasn't ready for the 18th century, either. 2 million people in 13 states couldn't maintain a confederacy for longer than roughly a decade before they realized they needed a stonger federal government.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:32 AM on January 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:32 AM on January 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
It's the 21st century, not the 8th. I think the Libertopia should be a Mars colony.
posted by anonymisc at 10:55 AM on January 23, 2013
posted by anonymisc at 10:55 AM on January 23, 2013
Libertarianism in the 18th century wasn't ready for the 18th century, either. 2 million people in 13 states couldn't maintain a confederacy for longer than roughly a decade before they realized they needed a stronger federal government.
I think that was his point, but that idea of a limited government that derives its power from the consent of the governed IS a libertarian idea. the founding fathers learned and adjusted their ideals to fit the reality of human beings. Modern day Libertarians don't seem to like that part of the history of the US.
posted by bartonlong at 11:01 AM on January 23, 2013
I think that was his point, but that idea of a limited government that derives its power from the consent of the governed IS a libertarian idea. the founding fathers learned and adjusted their ideals to fit the reality of human beings. Modern day Libertarians don't seem to like that part of the history of the US.
posted by bartonlong at 11:01 AM on January 23, 2013
It might be fun to "leak" intel of rising social breakdown outside the colony and that an underground (not covered by the MSM!) of vast hordes of jealous poors are going to try to storm the castle, but... so many guns and so many paranoids... someone would get hurt for reals :-(
posted by anonymisc at 11:01 AM on January 23, 2013
posted by anonymisc at 11:01 AM on January 23, 2013
the Anglosphere was run by libertariansim for some time, we just call it "classical liberalism" now
since classical liberalism is no longer tenable might i present my own plan for transition to exclusive government-via-bolshevik-LARP
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:08 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think that was his point
Oh yeah, I was just adding to the evidence of libertarianism's non-tenability.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:36 AM on January 23, 2013
Oh yeah, I was just adding to the evidence of libertarianism's non-tenability.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:36 AM on January 23, 2013
In other words, the Seasteading Institute throws a much better party than Something Awful.
that's not true, and I have proof, because [elaborates five-hundred word code-of-conduct and dress code for ironic get-together at Burger King]
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:47 AM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Marisa Stole the Precious Thing Libertarianism in the 18th century wasn't ready for the 18th century, either. 2 million people in 13 states couldn't maintain a confederacy for longer than roughly a decade before they realized they needed a stonger federal government.
I'm not really sure there's a meaningful difference between the Articles of Confederation and the Consitution on the libertarianism scale. Or it's a difference of degrees, rather than a radical change. If you didn't own land or get involved in the criminal justice system, one's peacetime interaction with government was virtually nil until at least the Civil War.
bartonlong I think that was his point, but that idea of a limited government that derives its power from the consent of the governed IS a libertarian idea
Yes, and I think you can point to it's recent influence on the Left. For example, do you want to abolish drug prohibition? That's libertarian; the modern liberal stance for a century was to protect people from themselves. It was progressives who gave us the 18th Amendment. Or take a look at the anti-war movement today; it's an explicit rejection of old-school Lefty Wilsonian Internationlism. It has a unmistakable libertarian logic.
posted by spaltavian at 12:59 PM on January 23, 2013
I'm not really sure there's a meaningful difference between the Articles of Confederation and the Consitution on the libertarianism scale. Or it's a difference of degrees, rather than a radical change. If you didn't own land or get involved in the criminal justice system, one's peacetime interaction with government was virtually nil until at least the Civil War.
bartonlong I think that was his point, but that idea of a limited government that derives its power from the consent of the governed IS a libertarian idea
Yes, and I think you can point to it's recent influence on the Left. For example, do you want to abolish drug prohibition? That's libertarian; the modern liberal stance for a century was to protect people from themselves. It was progressives who gave us the 18th Amendment. Or take a look at the anti-war movement today; it's an explicit rejection of old-school Lefty Wilsonian Internationlism. It has a unmistakable libertarian logic.
posted by spaltavian at 12:59 PM on January 23, 2013
abolish drug prohibition
Given a choice betweenthat and closing a Library what is your average libertarian politician going to do?
posted by Artw at 1:09 PM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Given a choice betweenthat and closing a Library what is your average libertarian politician going to do?
posted by Artw at 1:09 PM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
but The Scar came out in summer 2002
Snow Crash came out in 1992, and has a much more explicit Giant Libertarian Seasteading Thing Run By A Loony. As you say, it's not a new theme in SF.
posted by hattifattener at 1:26 PM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Snow Crash came out in 1992, and has a much more explicit Giant Libertarian Seasteading Thing Run By A Loony. As you say, it's not a new theme in SF.
posted by hattifattener at 1:26 PM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Artw: abolish drug prohibition
Given a choice betweenthat and closing a Library what is your average libertarian politician going to do?
Close the library of course. As I said earlier: the popular exponents of libertarian-ish ideals for the last 30 years have been the worst people ever.
posted by spaltavian at 1:46 PM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Given a choice betweenthat and closing a Library what is your average libertarian politician going to do?
Close the library of course. As I said earlier: the popular exponents of libertarian-ish ideals for the last 30 years have been the worst people ever.
posted by spaltavian at 1:46 PM on January 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm sure they'll listen to Reason.
posted by thewalrus at 2:03 PM on January 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by thewalrus at 2:03 PM on January 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
rough ashlar: "I see it more as a standard development with an HOA."
Seems that Glenn Beck is worse than a right-wing extremist demogogue...
He's a developer.
posted by stet at 2:26 PM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Seems that Glenn Beck is worse than a right-wing extremist demogogue...
He's a developer.
posted by stet at 2:26 PM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm not really sure there's a meaningful difference between the Articles of Confederation and the Consitution on the libertarianism scale.
Well, since you'd brought up how America was founded on "libertarian" ideas, I thought I'd point out that a structure that practices that preaching didn't fare really well for very long.
For example, do you want to abolish drug prohibition? That's libertarian
I'm not sure you can so easily say it's "libertarian" by itself to want to abolish drug prohibition. Surely there are all sorts of political and social philosophies that would jibe with abolishing drug prohibition. Just because libertarians support it doesn't mean the thing is, all by itself, a libertarian thing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:36 PM on January 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
Well, since you'd brought up how America was founded on "libertarian" ideas, I thought I'd point out that a structure that practices that preaching didn't fare really well for very long.
For example, do you want to abolish drug prohibition? That's libertarian
I'm not sure you can so easily say it's "libertarian" by itself to want to abolish drug prohibition. Surely there are all sorts of political and social philosophies that would jibe with abolishing drug prohibition. Just because libertarians support it doesn't mean the thing is, all by itself, a libertarian thing.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:36 PM on January 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
I just watched the Glen Beck videos in the sixth link and whoa, he's an odd duck. He starts coherently but then goes off on a tangent about cows or windmills and just when you think he's forgotten the point of the lecture he mostly comes back to it. Kind of like watching a drunkard stagger home on Saturday night.
So this Beckistan place is going to be a theme park that people live inside. Meanwhile, other people (impressionable types like children and politicians) can come there to learn THE TRUTH about America, apprenticeships, Nikola Tesla, cowboys and indians, or anything else that strikes Mr. Beck's fancy that day. And the rich and poor will live together in a happy place free from cars and wind power.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:06 PM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
So this Beckistan place is going to be a theme park that people live inside. Meanwhile, other people (impressionable types like children and politicians) can come there to learn THE TRUTH about America, apprenticeships, Nikola Tesla, cowboys and indians, or anything else that strikes Mr. Beck's fancy that day. And the rich and poor will live together in a happy place free from cars and wind power.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:06 PM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
THE TRUTH about America, apprenticeships, Nikola Tesla, cowboys and indians, or anything else that strikes Mr. Beck's fancy that day.
If he actually bult a huge Tesla museum like that Oatmeal guy is doing all the nerds, Goons, and MeFites would line up to get in.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 3:44 PM on January 23, 2013
If he actually bult a huge Tesla museum like that Oatmeal guy is doing all the nerds, Goons, and MeFites would line up to get in.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 3:44 PM on January 23, 2013
2 million people in 13 states couldn't maintain a confederacy for longer than roughly a decade before they realized they needed a stonger federal government.
When the money imploded (The Continental) that didn't help.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:00 PM on January 23, 2013
When the money imploded (The Continental) that didn't help.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:00 PM on January 23, 2013
Not so slight correction: while many of the people involved with Seasteading, including plentoy of its funders, directors and volunteers can be broadly categorized as libertarians the goal of the Seasteading Institute is very explicitly to create a "market in governments". Thus, while a "floating libertarian utopia" may result, they specifically are also for many sorts of other experiments to be possible. The point is to create alternatives we can learn from, not to realize some existing ideal verbatim.
Qualifications to answer: personally met many of the folks involved, been to a few of TSI's conferences, and helped out at Ephemerisle.
You can take apart their actual ideas, but all I ever see is people attacking a straw man of a group of people obsessed with a floating Galt's Gulch which is pretty darn far from being the case.
posted by anateus at 6:34 PM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Qualifications to answer: personally met many of the folks involved, been to a few of TSI's conferences, and helped out at Ephemerisle.
You can take apart their actual ideas, but all I ever see is people attacking a straw man of a group of people obsessed with a floating Galt's Gulch which is pretty darn far from being the case.
posted by anateus at 6:34 PM on January 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hippies throw great parties and festivals too but I wouldn't go give up my life to live on a commune with them.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:41 PM on January 23, 2013
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:41 PM on January 23, 2013
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posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 11:03 PM on January 22, 2013