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Choosing Not to Be
January 25, 2013 8:53 AM   Subscribe

Interesting article on David Foster Wallace and suicide in the Los Angeles Review of Books.
posted by holmesian (48 comments total) 32 users marked this as a favorite

 
Even though I will praise DFW to the heavens, I do think that Styron's Darkness Visible is writing that better gets to the nature of depression. But maybe that's cause DFW did not survive his fight with The Bad Thing
posted by angrycat at 9:03 AM on January 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:09 AM on January 25, 2013


It sounds like he didn't choose at all due to being in the thrall of his disease.
posted by Renoroc at 9:19 AM on January 25, 2013 [3 favorites]


Except in rare cases, we feel ambivalence toward suicides because they have betrayed the pact of the living. They have said that when you see life without any of our illusions, or diversions, it is unacceptable.

I have resented that last bit ever since coming to love someone with depression who is from time to time suicidal.

Because one of the central messages she has communicated to me is that when she's in the grip and the voices are telling her "You should just do the world a favor and end it, and don't make a mess in the process", she's most certainly NOT in her right mind, that her brain is actively trying to kill her, and part of my job is to help keep it from succeeding.

DFW suffered from a disease that ate away at his hypothalamus and affected the way he thought and it killed him early. That is a tragedy and he left behind a lot of work that means a lot of people.

But the motif of "heroic melancholy", that depression clears away the illusions and lets one see true reality and that it somehow fuels creativity, that's just so much Romantic bullshit and cheerleading on self-destruction, all while being at odds with how the brain works.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:36 AM on January 25, 2013 [77 favorites]


But the motif of "heroic melancholy", that depression clears away the illusions and lets one see true reality and that it somehow fuels creativity, that's just so much Romantic bullshit and cheerleading on self-destruction, all while being at odds with how the brain works.

Well said.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:42 AM on January 25, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yes, thank you. Fuck that 'Suicide is a rational response' bullshit in the ear.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:44 AM on January 25, 2013 [6 favorites]


There is no damn cat. There is no damn cradle.

.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:45 AM on January 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


But the motif of "heroic melancholy", that depression clears away the illusions and lets one see true reality and that it somehow fuels creativity, that's just so much Romantic bullshit and cheerleading on self-destruction, all while being at odds with how the brain works.

I think there's a big difference between "I see clearly that the world is horrible, history is a slaughtering bench, people find it very very hard not to be grotesquely cruel to each other whether by accident or on purpose" and "I see those things clearly and therefore I want to kill myself."

I think it's pretty legitimate to have a very bleak view of the world - there's a fairly good argument that the world is a bleak, terrible place and that many of our comforting illusions are bourgeois attempts to paper over the realities of nature and the body as well as the entrenched cruelties of racism, capitalism, patriarchy. This often gets labeled as "depressing" when it's really just "bleak". I mean, it's bleak. The world is godawful! Every bit of my happiness is built on the vilest, most unjust suffering of others and I'm not even able to stop it, most of the time. (I mean jesus christ, the German Peasants' Revolt of 1525! Consider that, and then consider that it's virtually unknown outside of people who specialize in European history, and consider that it was just one more instance of the horrible immiseration of the most vulnerable members of society, of which there are so many that they disappear into history! Godawful.)

In my own experience of depression, having this knowledge is totally different from being depressed or suicidal.
posted by Frowner at 9:49 AM on January 25, 2013 [20 favorites]


Here is the Michiko Kakutani’s review of D.T. Max’s biography of David Foster Wallace referenced in the first line of the article.
posted by zenon at 10:00 AM on January 25, 2013 [2 favorites]


that's just so much Romantic bullshit and cheerleading on self-destruction, all while being at odds with how the brain works.

There is actually evidence that depressive realism is an actual phenomenon, but it's not very clear.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:04 AM on January 25, 2013 [2 favorites]


There is actually evidence that depressive realism is an actual phenomenon, but it's not very clear.

And that has what to do with suicide?
posted by P.o.B. at 10:22 AM on January 25, 2013


And that has what to do with suicide?

They were responding to the comments above them, in particular this one:

But the motif of "heroic melancholy", that depression clears away the illusions and lets one see true reality and that it somehow fuels creativity, that's just so much Romantic bullshit and cheerleading on self-destruction, all while being at odds with how the brain works.

It's perfectly possible for a brain to both have an arguably more realistic interpretation of the world around it and be unhealthy at the same time. As appears to be the case.
posted by tychotesla at 10:32 AM on January 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


That does not appear to be the case as it is speculation, and the conversation, and the comment quoted, is very explicitly about rationalizing suicide. So, the answer you are giving is that it has nothing to do with suicide? Because then I would wholly agree with you.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:42 AM on January 25, 2013


In my own limited experience (as someone who's been through a few serious bouts of depression and was once tentatively diagnosed as having a schizoaffective disorder), the more realistic but pessimistic view of the world is more likely to spur constructive activity than to leave one paralyzed and suicidal. When you're so down you can't see anyway up, you don't tend to dwell on things that are actually wrong with the world, but escape into elaborate personal persecution fantasies or other delusions to avoid facing the world at all.

From my POV at least, sober-eyed realism about the awful state of things tends to prompt efforts to persuade others to see the problems and to work on grand projects under the delusion you might be able to ameliorate the problems you see somehow in the process. I've never had a suicidal impulse (maybe because I'm too cynical to think there could ever be such an easy escape route available to us and am also personally persuaded the laws of physics preclude suicide as a viable way out anyway), but the closest I've ever come to that POV has been not when I'm seeing things clearly for what they are, but rather, when I'm imagining things that actually aren't there.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:48 AM on January 25, 2013 [2 favorites]


From that depressive wiki-link:

Depressive realism is the proposition that people with depression actually have a more accurate perception of reality, specifically that they are less affected by positive illusions of illusory superiority, the locus of control and optimism bias.

Am I callous for having laughed out loud at the absurdity of this? Or more to the point, for immediately imagining its opposite:

Hopeful realism is the proposition that people with hope actually have a more accurate perception of reality, specifically that they are less affected by negative illusions of illusory inferiority, the locus of meaninglessness and pessimism bias.

And if I am seeming callous, I apologize. I don't wish to demean those who are struggling with depression. But I do take profound issue with some of those ideas/propositions that are informing their situation having endured some of them myself, albeit quite a long time ago. The turning point for me, I guess, was realizing that sometimes one's own mind is a liar, a deceiver, and thus must be called on its bullshit.
posted by philip-random at 10:55 AM on January 25, 2013 [6 favorites]


(P.o.B. The comment raised doubts about something someone asserted about depression and rationalizing suicide. I see that as relevant to the thread, so that that assertion is read with a critical eye. If you want to talk about this more, lets pm.)
posted by tychotesla at 10:58 AM on January 25, 2013


Most of the time I am like Leeloo in the vault at the end of the Fifth Element, "What's the use of saving lives when you see what you do with them?"
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:58 AM on January 25, 2013 [2 favorites]


But the motif of "heroic melancholy", that depression clears away the illusions and lets one see true reality and that it somehow fuels creativity, that's just so much Romantic bullshit and cheerleading on self-destruction, all while being at odds with how the brain works

Part of the problem is that sometimes one of the only ways to deal with it is to glorify it - artists have gone that route for centuries. No one tries to soothe themselves through lupus by romanticizing or glorifying it but there is so much cultural baggage about the poetic nature of depression that sometimes you get caught up in the loop of not trying to get medical treatment because it's heroic to suffer from it.
posted by spicynuts at 11:10 AM on January 25, 2013


They have said that when you see life without any of our illusions, or diversions, it is unacceptable.

The illusion is that it is without illusions. It's full of illusions, only negative ones.

Similarly, the realism of "depressive realism" is not all that realistic in the sense that the person in its throes also believes that the illusions are what make life worthwhile. CBT practitioners would be quick to catch this as a distortion.

None of this is to say that there's no "sense" to depression or to suicide. The sense is that you are in pain and find it intolerable to work through, for all work takes time and you need to be in pain while you do it.
posted by Obscure Reference at 11:10 AM on January 25, 2013 [3 favorites]


But the motif of "heroic melancholy", that depression clears away the illusions and lets one see true reality and that it somehow fuels creativity, that's just so much Romantic bullshit and cheerleading on self-destruction, all while being at odds with how the brain works.

I agree.

My husband took his own life. Any disillusionment he experienced was replaced with his own delusions. I'd say that DFW's own description is closer to what I know of the suicidal mind:

There is no way Kate Gompert could ever even begin to make someone else understand what clinical depression feels like, not even another person who is herself clinically depressed, because a person in such a state is incapable of empathy with any other living thing. […] If a person in physical pain has a hard time attending to anything except that pain, a clinically depressed person cannot even perceive any other person or thing as independent of the universal pain that is digesting her cell by cell. Everything is part of the problem, and there is no solution.

In the months since his death, I have scoured DFW's writing (and essays and books about DFW), as well as Anne Sexton's poetry. Both Wallace and Sexton left plenty of clues for the rest of us who do not suffer from this. Both have helped me to understand this mindset, this drive, this pain.
posted by Fichereader at 11:29 AM on January 25, 2013 [6 favorites]


I agree generally with Obscure Reference and others above, but there certainly are lots of people who seem to cling to obvious illusions and openly claim that it is because without those illusions, they couldn't see any meaning or point to life.

You ask me, they're the ones suffering from some form of un-diagnosed chronic depressive disorder. If the only way one can imagine life is bearable is to believe there's a literal sky-man who unfailingly doles out punishment to the wicked and rewards to the just--or otherwise to believe that our problems really aren't ever very serious or real and everything will work out to be fair and just in the end whether we take any corrective action or not--it seems to me that kind of "happiness" is too dependent on comforting illusions and isn't really happiness at all.

That said, in reality, there is almost no problem we humans can't solve if we're only willing to put aside our differences and short-term selfish interests, face it squarely, and not flinch. So there's nothing inherently depressing about taking a realistic view. That said, one of my closest friends from high school had a friend who lured him into this other guy's trailer with the promise of getting him some weed, only to have the guy force him at gunpoint to perform sex acts on him (and later, the guy even forced him at gunpoint to call his own unsuspecting brother to join them in the trailer, too). And my wife's best friend was murdered on his 21st birthday for making the mistake of going home with a guy who was deeply conflicted about his sexuality. Those represent a couple of aspects of reality I've seen clearly (and feel obligated not to forget) that occasionally get me down. But remaining hopeful is the only way I've ever found to cope with crap like that.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:51 AM on January 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yes, don't get your depression facts from book reviewers, who are merely trying to add grace notes to better artists.
posted by fleacircus at 11:54 AM on January 25, 2013


The story about her acquaintance was chilling to me. The suicide that occurred in my family a few years ago was done that way: thoroughly organized and planned. They found her projects at work all brought to neat stopping points, with clear notes about direction, things like that.
posted by thelonius at 12:23 PM on January 25, 2013


> I think there's a big difference between "I see clearly that the world is horrible, history is a slaughtering bench,
> people find it very very hard not to be grotesquely cruel to each other whether by accident or on purpose"
> and "I see those things clearly and therefore I want to kill myself."

Yes. The thing is, the "therefore" connection is spurious. Speaking only for myself, I go "'I see clearly... or on purpose.' Yeah yeah, and what's for dinner?" And I'm as good at spurious therefores as anyone. They just don't have all that much power over me. Terence this is stupid stuff, you eat your vittles fast enough. That's brain chemistry in action.
posted by jfuller at 1:38 PM on January 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


> I agree generally with Obscure Reference and others above, but there certainly are lots of people who seem to cling to obvious illusions

Obvious illusions I cling to: people are basically good, things are not hopeless, what I do matters. Or if not obvious illusions, at least I certainly can't prove any of them. Yet like other believers in whatever I cling, effortlessly
posted by jfuller at 1:46 PM on January 25, 2013


I wonder about the acquaintance's psychiatrist. Your client gives you explicit instructions to give any and all information to her friends in the event of her death and you do what, exactly?
posted by grootless at 1:48 PM on January 25, 2013


Obvious illusions I cling to: people are basically good, things are not hopeless, what I do matters.

OK, I'll play: I concede the first, but now I challenge you to your definition of the last two.

"Things are not hopeless" is an illusion, precisely how?
"What I do matters" is an illusion, precisely how?

Because if we're gonna try to apply cosmological scales to our personal lives, I'm gonna have to ask why you are applying requirements across incompatible scales (of time, size, etc).
posted by chimaera at 2:16 PM on January 25, 2013


To elaborate: it has taken me a great many years to come to accept that what I do will, at its very best, only matter to a few people, for a little while. But while that may be the case, does that make it any less worth doing?
posted by chimaera at 2:19 PM on January 25, 2013


chimaera: by "obvious illusions" I don't mean they're clearly false; an illusion can also happen to be true. I mean I believe those three in spite of the fact that objectly speaking I just don't know. I mean not only that I can't prove them rigorously, I can't even show that any of them are supported by a preponderance of the evidence beyond the point where a challenger could go "aah, yer cherrypicking."

> But while that may be the case, does that make it any less worth doing?

It does not. So BTW I absolutely agree with you. (But I do think that's brain chemistry in action, and I'm content with my own b. c. and would not trade with DFW.)
posted by jfuller at 2:43 PM on January 25, 2013


There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide.

- Albert Camus

He died young but apparently it was an accident.
posted by bukvich at 3:01 PM on January 25, 2013


I've pondered this question often, as it seems a lot of the idealistic people I've looked up to have committed suicide ( DFW, HST, Mitch Snyder, Abbie Hoffman, the list goes on ...). It seems like there is a connection with an idealistic outlook (for lack of a better word) and suicide. A sense of justice and some kind of order to the universe doesn't really mix well with serious depression. I think there's maybe a synergistic "I'm tired of banging my head against the wall" feeling that grows.

Just a layman's thoughts, of course.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 3:55 PM on January 25, 2013 [2 favorites]


fleacircus, as a book reviewer myself, I take issue with your characterization of the profession. Book reviewing at its best gives people enough information to decide whether or not they want to read a particular book. It's like being a museum guide, or a wine steward. It's an eminently useful task.

This piece isn't a book review, in any case--it's a personal-essay feature with some references to David Foster Wallace's work in.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:57 PM on January 25, 2013 [3 favorites]


grootless, my guess is that the instructions to the psychiatrist were also in a posthumously delivered letter.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:58 PM on January 25, 2013


On the subject of realism and depression my two cents are the following:

Once you get to a point of realizing that the world is just one big void you are free of the trappings of concepts realism and fantasy. The world just becomes as it is. Just void-like.

The depressing part is dealing with people and environments who insist that the fantasy world is real.
posted by Divest_Abstraction at 4:10 PM on January 25, 2013


I've been rereading "A Supposedly Fun Thing..." and had completely forgotten about this part, which tears me up just pasting it here:

There is something about a mass-market Luxury Cruise that’s unbearably sad. Like most unbearably sad things, it seems incredibly elusive and complex in its causes and simple in its effect: on board the Nadir—especially at night, when all the ship’s structured fun and reassurances and gaiety-noise ceased—I felt despair. The word’s overused and banalified now, despair, but it’s a serious word, and I’m using it seriously. For me it denotes a simple admixture—a weird yearning for death combined with a crushing sense of my own smallness and futility that presents as a fear of death. It’s maybe close to what people call dread or angst. But it’s not these things, quite. It’s more like wanting to die in order to escape the unbearable feeling of becoming aware that I’m small and weak and selfish and going without any doubt at all to die. It’s wanting to jump overboard.

Wallace, David Foster (2009-11-23). A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again: Essays and Arguments (p. 261). Back Bay Books. Kindle Edition.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:30 PM on January 25, 2013 [3 favorites]


> Like most unbearably sad things, it seems incredibly elusive and complex in its causes and simple in its effect: on board the Nadir—especially at night
> when all the ship’s structured fun and reassurances and gaiety-noise ceased—I felt despair

Dave, you really should not move to a Florida old-people compound when you're old. You won't like it a bit.
posted by jfuller at 5:28 PM on January 25, 2013


Obvious illusions I cling to: people are basically good, things are not hopeless, what I do matters. Or if not obvious illusions, at least I certainly can't prove any of them.

Those are not illusions. Most life experience bears them out, doesn't it? I mean, obviously there are awful, awful exceptions. But there are generally far more examples in even the most unfortunate people's lives of those things being true.

Once you get to a point of realizing that the world is just one big void you are free of the trappings of concepts realism and fantasy.

What's "one big void"? Is that just another word for what the rest of us call the world? If so, then what problem exactly has been solved by substituting the one (I guess by this reasoning "meaningless") word for another (likewise "meaningless") word?

More on topic, depression in DFW's case, like so many other human maladies, seems to have something to do with a tendency to over-generalize from experience in it.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:34 PM on January 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


What about euthanasia? We don't say that people who are suffering extreme pain due to endgame terminal cancer have "betrayed their pact with the living" if they opt to end their lives.

People who are suffering from severe depression are suffering from delusions. Depression gets negative self-talk playing in one's head on a perpetual loop, thoughts like "I've accomplished nothing with my life," "things can only get worse from here" etc. Those thoughts are false, as false as thinking that a government conspiracy is out to get you. Chronic overgeneralized negative self-talk isn't realism, it's something to knock down with cognitive therapy and antidepressants.

However, depressed people are not at all delusional about the fact that they are suffering. "It is a level of psychic pain wholly incompatible with human life as we know it." That is not a false statement. It is true, and people who have not experienced full-on clinical depression are not in a position to question it.

One argument we can give against suicide for a depressed person is that with medical treatment and therapy many people fully recover and most people improve. However, if we're going to be honest with ourselves and them, there are some people for whom therapy doesn't help and the drugs don't work. What would we say to them?

Well, we'd say "don't commit suicide," because depressed people would generally tend to think they're part of the untreatable 1% and almost all of them would be wrong. However, that 1% does exist and their belief that going on living will bring them more pain than pleasure is true.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:48 PM on January 25, 2013 [3 favorites]


One argument we can give against suicide for a depressed person is that with medical treatment and therapy many people fully recover and most people improve. However, if we're going to be honest with ourselves and them, there are some people for whom therapy doesn't help and the drugs don't work. What would we say to them?

How about "Try to hold on? We're working on it? We can't promise it'll get better, but there's still hope it might as long as you're still alive."

Or as I recall the Doctor occasionally saying in the classic Doctor Who series: "While there's life, there's hope."
posted by saulgoodman at 11:39 PM on January 25, 2013


How about "Try to hold on? We're working on it? We can't promise it'll get better, but there's still hope it might as long as you're still alive."

This is also true of late-stage cancer. Are you arguing against euthanasia in general?

I will say that "You'll miss the next season of Dr. Who!" is a good reason to remain alive.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:37 AM on January 26, 2013


fleacircus, as a book reviewer myself, I take issue with your characterization of the profession

Sorry, I should have dropped that second comma. Don't worry, if I were god-emperor the profession of book reviewers would be safe, though I might pass a ban on pithy quips at the end of reviews--or at least an advisory board to send people to the reviewers houses, just to roll their eyes at them.

You're right, it is an essay more than a review, but the author probably still should not have dropped a bomb like, "Except in rare cases, we feel ambivalence toward suicides because they have betrayed the pact of the living. They have said that when you see life without any of our illusions, or diversions, it is unacceptable."

Besides being irked about being told by this person what we all feel and think about this issue, I suppose I was also irked at how often these discussions turn into people being all "wait no let me tell you about what depression/suicide are really about", even though I know it's kind of inevitable and I shouldn't be irked. As a depressed person, I take issue... I thought I could just confine my annoyance to the author, but I overswung—no offense meant to the Guild of Sommeliers.
posted by fleacircus at 3:23 AM on January 26, 2013


There are some cultural differences here as well, apart from euthanasia.
See Santhara. I made an FPP about it a while ago, where suicide is a way of life so to speak.
posted by adamvasco at 1:40 PM on January 26, 2013


What about euthanasia? We don't say that people who are suffering extreme pain due to endgame terminal cancer have "betrayed their pact with the living" if they opt to end their lives.

Actually…

Some of us were raised to think that very, explicit thing. Some of us are working on focussing more on compassion than condemnation as we get older.

But some of us do not consider suicide to be honorable, laudable or a worthy choice.

Not expecting erryone to agree with me.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 3:21 PM on January 26, 2013


This is also true of late-stage cancer. Are you arguing against euthanasia in general?

No, I'm just suggesting this is what I would feel most comfortable saying to my friend. It doesn't seem like my place to steer anyone toward an irreversible decision. And I'd hate to be the one who prompted my friend to end it all a few weeks before a definitive cure for depression happened to turn up. While it's possible there might always be a 1% that could never be cured by any treatment, there are plenty of diseases that absolutely can be cured 100% of the time once diagnosed, and who's to say depression might not one day be one of those conditions?

At any rate, deciding to live another day is a decision that can be reversed in a moment. Deciding not to die is not. I personally always try to avoid irreversible decisions.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:37 PM on January 26, 2013


Shoot. "Deciding not to die is not." Missed the editing window.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:12 PM on January 26, 2013


I really want to kill myself this week, and am seeking help so that I don't. That part of the depression is irrational--though really, considering how much i cost, and how many people in the world, i am not unique enough in the world to legitimize myself being here.

But that no one in the world is unique enough to legitimize ourself being here. This isolation from the self to the world, and the largeness of the world against the smallness of human beings is part of a long tradition that makes creative work sound different. I think that the clarity of the mood, the rawness, and the precision of the violence that is found in the midst of much human discourse.

I don't know or like Wallace enough to prove that his work, but to avoid having work about this isolation, and this desire, to not have a discussion of the philosophical or literary potential of depression means that we will not have so much western culture. When depressives write (and getting them to write is its own problem), we have a recognition of not only the difficulty of the world but the immutability of us against it.

You can see this line of melancholic inquiry everywhere--in poetry (Dickinson, Sexton, Plath, Hardy, Celan), in Philosophy (Burton, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Camus), in religious texts (Weil), Playwrights (the other Weil, Kushner, Williams), Memoir (Styron, Knapp, Brampton), novelists (Kafka, Hasek, Jeliedenk) even children's books (Sendak).

Depression has a gift for the world--the problem with that gift is that it is like a parasitical fish, eating through the host body, taking over the self. The question becomes how do you keep the depression's gifts while not making sure that people die.
posted by PinkMoose at 8:35 PM on January 26, 2013


That part of the depression is irrational--though really, considering how much i cost, and how many people in the world, i am not unique enough in the world to legitimize myself being here.

Every human being carries around an entire universe in their head. We're not distinct from the world--we create and recreate it with every act of imagination and perception. And the subjectivity of human experience makes the value of every individual human life incalculable. MBA-style cost/benefit analyses don't apply to humanity, due to the irrationality/non-linearity of the scale of interior life. Humans are bigger on the inside than on the outside. And our interior lives are entire universes unto themselves, every bit as real and valuable as any other. Please consider that you might be doing the math wrong before you let your sums lead you to make any irreversible decisions.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:29 PM on January 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


PinkMoose, I was going to MeMail you this, and I don't want to turn this into a total derail. But I would like to state publicly that I have enjoyed many of your contributions to MetaFilter and its associated site.

"Uniqueness" has a strange connotation in that the word itself truly means something which is truly singular. Yet it is most often used by someone saying something or someone is "very unique," which is apparently acceptable to some dictionaries but feels incorrect.

The same thing that makes you wonder if you are truly unique -- or unique enough -- that your contributions to the world wouldn't make a difference? That's the same thing, in a much more sinister form, that tells you your problems are unique and, therefore, nobody else can truly understand them. Or you.

That there's no hope -- or, rather, that there's no unique hope.

The difficulty is in finding that unique hope that speaks to your unique mind. (I'm saying this with all compassion here, having dealt with depression for the last 20 years.)

I respect that you're dealing with issues with which I have no experience. I'm really glad that you're seeking help. Please keep fighting.
posted by Madamina at 7:16 AM on January 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


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