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February 13, 2013 4:53 AM   Subscribe

A new app has been invented that allows women ('girls only!') to rate and hashtag the men they've met, befriended or dated. The reviews are not positive.

The Kernel - a somewhat agenda-filled gossipy tech website with issues of its own - has been scathing about it from the start, making one wonder if it was a non-starter or would remain only a media talking point. But what about the men? Well, you can find out whether you've been 'reviewed' on the site in exchange for your Facebook login.
posted by mippy (122 comments total) 14 users marked this as a favorite

 
#smellsamazeballs

Women don't really say that, do they? Shocking stuff.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:55 AM on February 13, 2013


Well, I don't even have The Facebook any more, so perhaps I can't speak for all women, but I don't think I've ever described anything as 'amazeballs'. Or 'reem'.
posted by mippy at 4:58 AM on February 13, 2013


Shocking but true. Balls are in fact well known for being amazed by smells.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 4:59 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


It's like, totally in the dictionary and shit?
posted by mippy at 5:03 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Why did I just know somehow that this app would have shocking pink in it somewhere?
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:03 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Naturally, when you meet someone you fancy, the first thing you do is Google them.

Oh, naturally.
*slaps forehead*
posted by Mezentian at 5:04 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


But what about the men? Well, you can find out whether you've been 'reviewed' on the site in exchange for your Facebook login.

Given that the sole purpose of this site is transparently to troll insecure men into giving it their logins, maybe we could pass on giving it the attention it so desperately wants.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:11 AM on February 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


Fortunately, I am so insecure that the idea of giving this app my login terrifies me. You lose, Lulu!
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:14 AM on February 13, 2013 [12 favorites]


You know, I don't actually have a real problem with women rating men by whatever standards they like. Warning labels are not particularly monstrous, despite all this drummed-up outrage.
posted by corb at 5:16 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


#smellsamazeballs

I think there's a typo, and it originally was "smells a maize ball," meaning that the gentleman in question had a scent of corn fritters. Whether this was a relationship plus or minus depends on the user, I suppose.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:18 AM on February 13, 2013 [11 favorites]


I have noticed more and more sites are asking for FB logins - in the past it was on-site apps, now it's fora, online shopping sites, video on demand, access to consumer pages (there are few company pages on FB now which don't require a login in order to read what's on the page). I was never tinfoil-hatty enough to worry about privacy on Facebook when I used it - surely the only 'data' they can access is that which you put in, I thought, and I stopped using it because it irritated me rather than privacy concerns - but I'm not sure I welcome our new Facebook overlords.
posted by mippy at 5:20 AM on February 13, 2013


It never ceases to amaze me that the "girl culture" promoted by the fashion mags manages to out-sleaze even the worst frat boy. From the Cosmo sex advice pages that would make Larry Flynt blush, to this horrible app, everything seems to say: "Hey girls, we can be even more horrible, superficial, sex-obsessed, exploitative, predatory, psychopathic and generally despicable in our relationships than even the worst male scum you ever met!"
posted by Skeptic at 5:26 AM on February 13, 2013 [15 favorites]


It'd be funny if under "Adam Smith"'s photo, instead of smarmy bro with shades, they had a lithograph of the economist looking dour.
posted by angrycat at 5:28 AM on February 13, 2013 [28 favorites]


also, I just spent five minutes thinking that women were rating the smells of testicles. Which, maybe they are, go smell those balls.
posted by angrycat at 5:30 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


You know, I don't actually have a real problem with women rating men by whatever standards they like.

To be a bit more serious, I don't really, either. I might choose to make decisions about who I remain friends with depending on how they talk about prospective dates, but I do that with men, too. My main problem with this is the idea that a facebook friend of mine can give access to my profile to a third party without my consent. Which, you know, is one reason I don't use facebook much anymore, but, still...
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:37 AM on February 13, 2013


Oh goody. Another tool I can use to stalk boys.
posted by cyml at 5:38 AM on February 13, 2013


So this app rates and hashtags peen?
posted by klarck at 5:39 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think this is a good thing. More edge-cases of men who will conclude that the gay is just too practical to ignore.
posted by Goofyy at 5:41 AM on February 13, 2013 [13 favorites]


#scentsastoundtesticles
posted by not_on_display at 6:00 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Naturally, when you meet someone you fancy, the first thing you do is Google them.

I'm certain this has cost me more than one second date.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:08 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think this is a giant step forward for feminism, equalizing women's ability to be every bit as horrible as men. The important thing we all should know is, does the app have a "fistbump" option so you can get your friends attention? Or do bras operate differently from bros in that regard?
posted by wolfdreams01 at 6:11 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


From Kernel's list of men

Abercrombie Fitch 13 Jan 2012 ... Al Pacino 13 Jan 2012 ... Johnny Depp 13 Jan 2012 ... Jon Huntsman 13 Jan 2012 ...

No Jack Meeoff or Mike Hunt, though. Sigh. No one takes pride in their work anymore.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:14 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


My main problem with this is the idea that a facebook friend of mine can give access to my profile to a third party without my consent. Which, you know, is one reason I don't use facebook much anymore, but, still...

Yeah, but this is not a problem unique to that app.
posted by corb at 6:17 AM on February 13, 2013


I'm as pro-privacy and personal data paranoid as anyone, but I think people give in to paranoia about Facebook logins to dating-related sites a little easily. Rather than harvesting your data for some nefarious intent, they're probably just leveraging FB's connections to people's real identities to make logging in easier and providing crap data more cumbersome.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:21 AM on February 13, 2013


Anyone who's seen rate my ex girlfriend .com is unlikely to think that lulu outsleazes what men have been doing for years. There is even a soft porn mag called Perfect 10.

If you check out lulu, it's all hashtag driven and the tone is more cheeky than nasty.
posted by colie at 6:22 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


There is a website in the UK where men can review and rate prostitutes (Punternet). Though thinking about it, the business element means it's essentially a TripAdvisor for sexual services, which makes sense.
posted by mippy at 6:25 AM on February 13, 2013



You know, I don't actually have a real problem with women rating men by whatever standards they like. Warning labels are not particularly monstrous, despite all this drummed-up outrage.


See, I do have a problem with this, and I am definitely on the froth-at-the-mouth, "I hate cis dudes", "we-live-under-white-supremacist-capitalist-patriarchy" end of the spectrum.

On one hand, I think that the type of people who do all that 'I am going to rate a stranger by some poorly chosen, carelessly applied standards of my own and post it for all the world to see" stuff are probably only meeting other people like themselves, thus not so much my problem...

On the other hand, I think there are some bad assumptions embedded in this kind of thing:
1. The "review" model, so excellent for small electronics and pet products, is well-suited to evaluating human beings.
2. We are all rational, neutral observers who have fundamentally the same standards - ie, if several women point out that dude wears a fedora and it looks a bit dorky, this is not only information that I should find important, it's information I never could have gathered on my own or inferred to be likely, and it is suggested that this should trump everything else about the fellow.
3. We should all accept increasing "social" surveillance, the idea that all of our behaviors are constantly being reported and evaluated not just by a small part of our social circle but by a nebulous audience of stranger. So we're always performing, like it or never so. And there's thus a pressure to evaluate all of our actions as performance for this Big Other audience....only unlike the old Big Other, this Big Other is really there. When Judith Butler said that gender was a performance, this was not what she had in mind.
4. More information is always better; all information is equal.
5. Consumer model of social interactions - it's not just that I am responsible for vetting the people that I spend time with, it's that social systems create a norm where you research people and evaluate them based on "performance reviews" - it turns social interactions work-like.
6. Power tends to go to the mean, snide, and judgmental (or the drippily sentimental). What do we like to read on the internet? Someone ripping someone else apart, or else someone sentimentally saying that it is morally wrong to rip someone else apart because Cuddly Personal Struggles - mostly the former. The people who will have the most power as "human reviewers" will be the people who are best with funny put-downs. Have you ever spent a lot of time in a social circle where funny put-downs were the norm of interaction? It's unbearably hideous and it can really fuck people up.

This isn't "feminist", to my mind, because "feminism" (no matter what MRAs and the terminally misinformed say) is not about "replace patriarchal abuse with matriarchal abuse". Margaret Thatcher was only the sixth Spice Girl because the Spice Girls themselves were this godawful, unfeminist neoliberal thing.
posted by Frowner at 6:25 AM on February 13, 2013 [26 favorites]


Some girls are gleefully tweeting about lulu with the hashtag #creepin.

Which suggests an understandable push back against the male version of lulu, otherwise known as 'the entire rest of the Internet'.
posted by colie at 6:25 AM on February 13, 2013 [8 favorites]


'the entire rest of the Internet'

Your cheap shot will never ruin Metafilter for me. Never!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 6:32 AM on February 13, 2013


Quite possibly the worst thing Jezebel has done is make "amazeballs" part of the common lexicon.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 6:33 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


This reminds me of a short story I was going to write about a web service where only women were allowed to join. It had the same purpose as this: to discuss, and disseminate, good and bad info about specific men. The only difference between Lulu and my fictional service was that my fictional service was a complete secret to all men, everywhere.
posted by coolxcool=rad at 6:34 AM on February 13, 2013


I'm going to go out and start marketing Eau de Stones .

Get the amazeballs smell for your very own.
posted by pjern at 6:38 AM on February 13, 2013


"Hey, can I smell your balls?"
"No!"
"Well it must be your goddamned feet, then."
posted by Segundus at 6:39 AM on February 13, 2013 [8 favorites]


because the Spice Girls themselves were this godawful, unfeminist neoliberal thing.

Always preferred All Saints, myself.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:41 AM on February 13, 2013


The only difference between Lulu and my fictional service was that my fictional service was a complete secret to all men, everywhere.

... well it was, goddammit.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:44 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Did anyone else read #smellsamazeballs as "smells same as balls?"

Just me?
posted by emelenjr at 6:55 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


Not just you, emelenjr.
posted by frecklefaerie at 7:00 AM on February 13, 2013


Ah! This was the one which reddit's MRAs got furious about because they felt it was objectifying for men to be ranked on the size of their genitals... even though it had no such ranking, right? That was funny.

And telling.

But mostly funny.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:13 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think this is a good thing. More edge-cases of men who will conclude that the gay is just too practical to ignore.

This made me laugh at first, but on further consideration, men, if you think going gay will help you avoid judgment from your peers, I've got some bad news for you.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:14 AM on February 13, 2013 [21 favorites]


Naturally, when you meet someone you fancy, the first thing you do is Google them.

When my now-girlfriend met me for the first time, she liked me enough I guess to Google me, which took her to my personal web site. On the top of that site was a personal essay about my being horny and lonely and bored, which ended in a lengthy description of a wet dream. That apparently made her decide I was worth dating, which is one of the ways I knew early on that she was a weird and wonderful person.
posted by Rory Marinich at 7:17 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


And telling.

No one gives the insecure and poorly hung a worse name than the insecure and poorly hung.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:17 AM on February 13, 2013


Jesus Christ. For years I've had to stress about my hair, my weight, the size of my enormous penis, my clothes, being witty. By the year 2005, I've learned I need to worry about the right moisturizer, exfoliant, cologne, knowing how to select quality Italian shoes and Swiss watches, be comfortable buying my girlfriend a vibrator on Valentine's Day, while developing a wide range of conversational interests. All while not outwardly objectifying women the way I've been objectifying myself.

Now I hear I'm being rated publicly on the smell of my balls? Can someone please describe a pleasing ball scent to me? Musky and manly? Mysterious and exotically spicy? Floral with fruity overtones? Is there a line of scrotum cologne I can sample at Nordstrom? These are things I care desperately about people!!!
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:24 AM on February 13, 2013 [9 favorites]


If anyone Googled me upon first meeting they would assume I am London DJ who is a spiritual adviser to a Nevada lawmaker and also some kind of digital artist in Brazil.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:30 AM on February 13, 2013


Ask MetaFilter: Can someone please describe a pleasing ball scent to me?
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:30 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm going to guess 'none' or 'soap' wouldn't be bad first choices.
posted by Skorgu at 7:34 AM on February 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


I am London DJ who is a spiritual adviser to a Nevada lawmaker and also some kind of digital artist in Brazil.

I am so many doctors.
posted by griphus at 7:36 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


We've discussed similar sites and blogs before. Anyone launched a review site for the date review sites yet? Anyone started a male version yet?
posted by jeffburdges at 7:48 AM on February 13, 2013


Is there a line of scrotum cologne I can sample at Nordstrom?

Let me suggest Comme des Garcons' Avignon Eau de Toilette, described as "the scent of gothic cathedrals and Papal palaces, of tapestries imbued with centuries of incense. Of cold marble steps, holy relics and dark confessions."
posted by octobersurprise at 7:51 AM on February 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


I'm pretty sure the keys to good ball smell are baths, showers, and clean underwear. Babywipes after pooping if you need the remedial course.
posted by bukvich at 7:57 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


As I own Avignon, it would really confuse me if I found a pair of balls smelling the same.

You could try Secretions Magnifigues by Etat Libre d'Orange.
posted by mippy at 7:57 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


You know, I don't actually have a real problem with women rating men by whatever standards they like. Warning labels are not particularly monstrous, despite all this drummed-up outrage.

Oh, okay, so you wouldn't have a problem with an app that let men rate women according to whether they have "big enough" breasts or whether they put out - and then insulate this information from the women being so rated, unless they hand over their Facebook login info? How the fuck is that okay?

This isn't about warning signs. This isn't about a venue for women to warn other women that a particular guy is a creeper or an asshole. This is a venue for women to objectify and ridicule men, to rate them like products on Amazon, and you don't see a problem with this? If the genders were reversed, I can't imagine any reaction except dismissal and disgust. Treating women like commodities is wrong; treating men like commodities is also wrong.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:06 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


I don't know that I disagree, but it's not as simple as just playing reverse-the-sexes, because men doing this to women would be doing so with the full force of thousands of years of patriarchy behind them.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:08 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


being outraged by intentionally outrageous material seems counterproductive
posted by lulz at 8:14 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


"there's no opt-out for men who'd rather not be shagged and tagged: when I set up my account, the Facebook profile of every chap I know was dragged into the Luluverse and I was invited to comment on their eligibility. I'm sorry, guys. It didn't ask me if I wanted that to happen, never mind you."

Two questions : If you hide your gender from your profile, does this application still gain access? If you switch your gender to female, does this application still grab your profile? I.e. does it cater to lesbians too?

Facebook might dislike people changing the gender specifically to avoid such applications. An application does not live long if Facebook deems it disruptive.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:17 AM on February 13, 2013


I don't know that I disagree, but it's not as simple as just playing reverse-the-sexes, because men doing this to women would be doing so with the full force of thousands of years of patriarchy behind them.

See, here is a thing: it's true that woman have been "rated" in horrible, inhuman ways by men in most feudal/capitalist/proto-capitalist societies for much of written history - and I can't help but think, honestly, of the hideous "rating" systems used for slaves, immigrants and indentured servants. Ranking and rating human beings as if they're grades of lumber has a horrible and violent history.

We could go "well then, it doesn't matter if women do it, because nothing women do can possibly be as bad as what men have done and do continuously, and besides, it won't hurt the men to get a little of their own medicine". Which I actually think is basically true.

And I don't like the narrative that Women Must Be Loving And Spiritual Creatures Unlike Base Men, so we have to, like, lead the way in behaving well.

And yet, I'd like to see this kind of moment as a call to everyone - for their different reasons, from their different experiences, with their different capacities - to move forward by rejecting dumb-ass commodification of people, to move from rejecting petty shit like this to also rejecting commodification of women and workers because it's part of the same way of thinking about people.
posted by Frowner at 8:19 AM on February 13, 2013 [13 favorites]


I don't know that I disagree, but it's not as simple as just playing reverse-the-sexes, because men doing this to women would be doing so with the full force of thousands of years of patriarchy behind them.

If feminism doesn't mean that women have to treat men like human beings the same way men have to treat women like human beings, it has utterly failed.

As a man, I am encouraged by the full force of thousands of years of patriarchy to treat women like commodities to be rated and judged and bought and sold. I reject this. I suggest, however, that "two wrongs don't make a right" is a cliche for a fucking reason.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:28 AM on February 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


I don't like this app, because I'm on the same side as everyone who thinks that rating people is a great way to bring a consumer-minded, capitalist-driven market mentality to freakin' other human beings and that is not good.

On the other hand, in a not-so-small corner of my heart, I am feeling warm and fuzzy as I watch dudes blow up about this, because hey welcome to the other side, assholes! And their rhetoric about why this is a TERRIBLE THING that's MAKING PEOPLE SUFFER is so hilariously close to the exact opposite of the things they say when they defend the same system but are in a position of power (rating of women.)

This isn't about a venue for women to warn other women that a particular guy is a creeper or an asshole.

But seriously why isn't that app out there? I understand that there might be some legal issues, but surely there aren't legal issues with just calling someone a "creeper" or "too pushy"? We don't have to go all the way to accusations of rape, if that would get a hypothetical creeper-ap shut down (although frankly I would really really really really like to know that information and the current resources-- police and crime databases and background checks-- would only work if crimes of sexual aggression were prosecuted in much larger numbers.) Just a warning that someone else had a negative experience with this person and to be on the lookout would be nice. Women don't really have a lot of resources for this sort of thing; it would be awesome to have informal networks to share information.
posted by WidgetAlley at 8:31 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


Aren't societies rating metrics for men just as shallow as for women, shakespeherian? I.e. money vs. looks.

In principle, these applications might beat those social ratings because they rate behavior not possessions. Also men don't much care if another man finds a woman attractive. So the male equivalent to dontdatehimgirl.com is actually thatbitchiscrazy.com.

Just spread the word that people should change their gender on facebook because screwing up facebook's data helps everyone and might prompt facebook to kill lulu too.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:31 AM on February 13, 2013


On the other hand, in a not-so-small corner of my heart, I am feeling warm and fuzzy as I watch dudes blow up about this, because hey welcome to the other side, assholes! And their rhetoric about why this is a TERRIBLE THING that's MAKING PEOPLE SUFFER is so hilariously close to the exact opposite of the things they say when they defend the same system but are in a position of power (rating of women.

Can you please point to these men who are saying this? The men who A) defend their "right" to rate women while B) objecting to this app? Because I've seen B, and I've seen A, but I really haven't seen A and B both coming out of the mouths of the same men. I'm a man. I hate women "rating" men. I also hate men "rating" women. There are other men who think it's awesome to "rate" women. I'm not one of them.

But seriously why isn't that app out there?

It is. Don't date him girl.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:34 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


So I guess everyone just ignored the 'I don't know that I disagree' part of what I said? I am not disagreeing with Tomorowful, I am being cautious with the switch-the-sexes-to-see-what-you-think-then line of reasoning.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:38 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


If you same-the-sexes isn't this several successful and socially acceptable(ish) apps?
posted by Artw at 9:02 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I agree that this shouldn't be a "women were treated badly, now we're going to treat men badly" thing. It's not. SOME (being the key word) women already do this in private conversations. I agree that it's an absolutely foul, awful, and disrespectful, but the reasoning is not revenge for patriarchy, at least that's not what I ever got from it. It's just about hate, plain and simple, and sometimes even personal vendettas. It's small-minded BS, not a "how-do-you-like-it" role-reversal.

Either way, this app is clearly moronic and will not be used by most intelligent, thoughtful humans. (And I choose to believe there are more of us then there are of them!). Comparing a stupid fad app to thousands of years of patriarchy is just insane. It doesn't make sense to do it, so let's not.
posted by two lights above the sea at 9:13 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm not against this because feminism; I'm against this because stupid.
posted by klangklangston at 10:08 AM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm not against this because feminism; I'm against this because stupid.

Well put. However, this thread has given us "scrotum cologne," a phrase that has a pleasant sound and rhythm, and which deserves to be snapped up as a user name ASAP.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:39 AM on February 13, 2013 [8 favorites]


So this app rates and hashtags peen?

I prefer the portmanteau rashtagging.
posted by figurant at 10:42 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Thanks Tomorrowful, I didn't know about Don't Date Him Girl, but a quick peruse of the site (much of it is login-required and now appears to be down? Did we Mefi it?) looks more like it is designed to be a relationship-help, this-guy-cheats, and buy-my-book more than it is a crowdsourced "stay the hell away from this dude" thing like some of the Tumblrs that have previously popped up (and been instantly shut down again.)

Can you please point to these men who are saying this? The men who A) defend their "right" to rate women while B) objecting to this app? Because I've seen B, and I've seen A, but I really haven't seen A and B both coming out of the mouths of the same men.

Well, a lot of them are on my FB feed, if that helps. But here's some yelling from Reddit.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:49 AM on February 13, 2013


"Don't date him girl" used to be a man rating site - they said they were going to shut down their database a few years back, and apear to be trying to pivot to be a dating advice site/dating site.

That said, the app people used to use to warn people of creepers was Livejournal - I don't know how the modern equivalent would work. One of the great losses in the desertion of Livejournal was the loss of groups, with which warnings relevant to a particular social circle and a particular time (a conference or convention, say) could be disseminated in (relative) privacy.
posted by running order squabble fest at 10:52 AM on February 13, 2013


I think on a practical, more conciliatory level, "people-reviewing" sites could be a useful way to deliver feedback to people. Online dating, I feel, doesn't leverage the nature of anonymity by allowing people to explain why they are passed over. A site that allows people to genuinely comment on each other could provide a service to reveal social elephants in the room. This does not have to be limited to gender, orientation, or even romantic relationships, but any relationship.

Unfortunately, review sites about anything naturally end up becoming comment cesspools of hatred and stupidity, even if not anonymous (like requiring Facebook logins and so real names displayed). And this hypothetical site will probably excite passions and reveal to many crimes being committed.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:01 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


...has given us "scrotum cologne," a phrase that has a pleasant sound and rhythm...

Deep inside my brain, there is a cluster of neurons which watches with constant vigilance for phrases that can be sung to the tune of "Follow The Yellow-Brick Road."

You have just made those neurons' day.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 11:25 AM on February 13, 2013 [11 favorites]


objectifying for men to be ranked on the size of their genitals... even though it had no such ranking

I suppose you're technically correct that #Big.Feet is not so much a ranking as a binary big-vs-not-big, but you're stretching things to say the app doesn't have physical judgement baked right in. Telling.
posted by 0 at 12:13 PM on February 13, 2013


Telling who?
posted by koeselitz at 12:32 PM on February 13, 2013


If anyone Googled me upon first meeting they would assume I am London DJ who is a spiritual adviser to a Nevada lawmaker and also some kind of digital artist in Brazil.
posted by shakespeherian

Whereas you're actually Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, and I claim my five pounds!
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:44 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


What?
posted by shakespeherian at 12:50 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


If anyone Googled me upon first meeting they would assume I am London DJ who is a spiritual adviser to a Nevada lawmaker and also some kind of digital artist in Brazil.

You're a Bruce Sterling character?
posted by Artw at 12:52 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Women are constantly subjected to the male gaze, so it's only fair they turn the tables. I understand why people are attacking it: it's fear. Seeing what (some) women really want can be terrifying to insecure men. I flipped to an episode of Sex & The City and saw a hapless dork like me used as sexless comic relief. A dating show where the women rejected any men who weren't 'cheeky and sporty'. Even Jezebel and The Hairpin drool over athletes and mock 'earnest guys who listen to Bright Eyes'.

The thing is, this is fair! We should be applauding it! If a woman does anything or even exists in public men will comment on her appearance - in person and online, in various ways. So they should get theirs back.

As for Facebook logins, they're easier than creating and remembering a new login and password for every site. I wish everyone used them.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 1:56 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Women are constantly subjected to the male gaze, so it's only fair they turn the tables.

Often, turn-about is in fact not fair play, but rather a shallow substitute for real justice. Like where the original conduct was despicable. Why this urge to applaud the abused imitating the abusers? An eye for an eye leaves the world blind. I didn't think the endpoint of feminism was supposed to be bro culture. Unwanted sexual objectification in violation of personal privacy expectations shouldn't be OK just because its accomplished in a way that subverts normative gender power dynamics.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:32 PM on February 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


This sounds like the perfect app for Cheryl and Pam from Archer.
posted by turgid dahlia 2 at 2:33 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm with snuffleupagus. It may be fair, but it's not just.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 2:41 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Why are we talking about 'justice'? It's a gossipy little gag, and it'll sting when half the girls on my FB friends list tag me as 'creepy', but it probably stings when I call them 'crazy'. Everybody is rating and evaluating each other, and even if you try to be progressive you can't really turn it off.

Besides, I just know this is going to be used for years to justify MRAs being horrible.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:44 PM on February 13, 2013


Charlemagne in Sweatpants: "The thing is, this is fair! We should be applauding it!"

Why in the world would we celebrate this? Sinking to this level makes everyone look bad, regardless of sex. I have higher standards for myself than that.

Besides, "fair" is an immature metric, a child's measurement. Don't worry about whether something is fair, worry about whether something is right. Judging someone based on appearance? Wrong. Creeping on people online? Wrong.

See how easy it is when revenge fantasies don't get mixed up in your moral compass?
posted by misha at 2:52 PM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


I just know this is going to be used for years to justify MRAs being horrible.

I don't know about where you are, but here they actually are horrible.
posted by jessamyn at 2:55 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]




I just know this is going to be used for years to justify MRAs being horrible.

I don't know about where you are, but here they actually are horrible.


You misunderstand me: I'm not saying MRAs aren't horrible. I mean that they'll use the existence of this app as another justification, the same way the Creepshots people used Tubecrush as a justification.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:56 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I continue to not understand you.
posted by jessamyn at 3:00 PM on February 13, 2013


Oh wait I get it, you mean that MRA jerks will use this tool as a justification for their further bad behavior? I'm with misha here, I think being feminist about this stuff isn't just equal-opportunity sexist behavior but hoping that everyone is free from objectifying behavior from other people of any sex or gender.
posted by jessamyn at 3:05 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh wait I get it, you mean that MRA jerks will use this tool as a justification for their further bad behavior?

Yes. They're always looking for false equivalencies, like one app is the equivalent of a semi-codified rating system that PUAs have for women.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 3:16 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Worrying about what the MRAs might use as a justification for their odious positions on gender is about as important to me in arriving at my own opinion as those the NRA pushes on guns are to me in that area.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:19 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Why in the world would we celebrate this? Sinking to this level makes everyone look bad, regardless of sex. I have higher standards for myself than that.

One of the interesting things here is that the WikiDate function seems to have found the semi-mythical edge of what the Internet considers a good idea. The numbers of users are low, as are the numbers of men listed.

I think the number of people blogging about this is already significantly outstripping the number of people who have actually used it...
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:17 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


In related news, Chubby Checker is suing the makers of the the Chubby Checker, an app designed to help ladies assessing new romantic partners who were “wondering what the size of there [sic] member is.”
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:25 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


He's not Chubby, he's my brother!
posted by cjorgensen at 5:16 PM on February 13, 2013


I was in the pool
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:22 PM on February 13, 2013


Cold?
posted by cjorgensen at 5:26 PM on February 13, 2013


The app's just sucky, but mippy, I reallllllly like your post title!

*Shout*
posted by BlueHorse at 6:10 PM on February 13, 2013


I think the number of people blogging about this is already significantly outstripping the number of people who have actually used it...

This is definitely not the case... the app is very popular on campuses. Lulu's press release from Feb 5th says there are 90,000 guy reviews on it which have been viewed 7 million times. It's part of why they've raised a heap of investment.

I've had a look and it's actually very gentle and coy compared to what people assume it will be. Hashtags are often very quant old-style dating things like #AlwaysPays and #MomsLoveHim.
posted by colie at 12:50 AM on February 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


In related news, Chubby Checker is suing the makers of the the Chubby Checker, an app designed to help ladies assessing new romantic partners who were “wondering what the size of there [sic] member is.”

The best part about this is that it's a case against HP for a third-party webOS app which was downloaded 84 times onto a platform nobody uses. It would seem appropriate for HP to settle by offering him a feature-packed Pre 3.
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:50 AM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


"Chubby? Chubby? It's your cousin - Marvin Checker. You know you were looking to produce a useless App nobody wanted on a dying Mobile Platform? Well, look at this!"
posted by zoo at 4:55 AM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


If a woman does anything or even exists in public men will comment on her appearance - in person and online, in various ways. So they should get theirs back.

This is what I meant about the porn mag called Perfect 10. Nobody in the entire world even pauses to bat half an eyelid at that title for a magazine. Judging women didn't even have to be a 'thing' - it's part of the context in which all 'things' exist.
posted by colie at 6:05 AM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


This is what I meant about the porn mag called Perfect 10.

It's a porn magazine. You don't really need to point to its title to get that it's offering sexual objectification of women. Maybe we should ironically appreciate their unintentional forthrightness. And when you push it to that point of abstraction, simply 'judging people' is a 'thing' that is 'part of the context in which all 'things' exist.'

This app is icky for both gender politics and technology/privacy reasons. (Plus being tasteless, but that's sort of beside the point.) If it was doing something to try and improve the situation in either of those areas by offering something new and thoughtful to level the playing field that would be cool. This is just saying, "lets all be equally awful to each other."

I suppose there's an argument to be made there, although this app doesn't really make it very well. Especially with their sneaky appropriation of users' Facebook contacts. It's really only a step away from Girls Around Me in that practice, and we found plenty to hate about that:
"And with millions of chicks checking in daily, there's never been a better time to be on the hunt...."
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:47 AM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's a porn magazine. You don't really need to point to its title to get that it's offering sexual objectification of women.

For me it feels like there is something different about that kind of title for a porn mag. Assessing the various bits of a woman's body like baseball averages or whatever is clearly designed to be something that men can share with each other, outside of the fantasy of the sex scenarios presented.

It's like that old joke about the guy stranded on the desert island paradise, having sex all day with [insert name of sex-symbol female] - he just gets miserable after a few days because he can't brag about it to his mates.

Anyway I'm rambling and I admit I've lost my point, but when the fuss dies down about this app, I am pretty sure it will lead to far more hookups for guys and girls rather than less.
posted by colie at 7:10 AM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Okay, I'm seeing a lot of rhetoric, but simple question:

Are people here actually trying to argue that judging romantic partners is a bad idea?
posted by corb at 4:05 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


That was not a snark or an attempt for a gotcha - it's just really confusing to me. From my perspective, every time you meet someone, you judge them - whether they're funny or not, whether they're kind, honorable, and yes, attractive...all of these things enter into your opinions. But it seems like there's an idea that judging people is actually wrong, and I want to understand whether I'm reading that right.
posted by corb at 4:09 PM on February 14, 2013


That was not a snark or an attempt for a gotcha - it's just really confusing to me. From my perspective, every time you meet someone, you judge them - whether they're funny or not, whether they're kind, honorable, and yes, attractive...all of these things enter into your opinions. But it seems like there's an idea that judging people is actually wrong, and I want to understand whether I'm reading that right.

Exactly, I don't understand it at all. Since guys rate women numerically when we see them (and even rate guys - "that one looks like a douchebag, that one looks like a hippie") it makes sense women would do the same.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:10 PM on February 14, 2013


From my perspective, every time you meet someone, you judge them

Do you immediately tweet your judgements to everyone you know, too?
posted by octobersurprise at 4:18 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Do you immediately tweet your judgements to everyone you know, too?

Depends on the person? I mean I saw a dude dressed like he was going LARPing, with a metal sword, and I did Instagram that on Twitter and Facebook.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:21 PM on February 14, 2013


Do you immediately tweet your judgements to everyone you know, too?

No, but I definitely try to set my friends up. "You'd like him, he's cute and funny." "You'd like him, he's really honest." And yes, "You'd like him, he's great in bed" has come out of my mouth. Also, "He's pretty, but really ungenerous in bed." And I think of it as sharing my knowledge with people I care about so they can get the advantage of it, or avoid pitfalls.
posted by corb at 4:22 PM on February 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


It feels like there are at least three levels. The first is, for want of a better term, the MRA level, where men are angry that women are being allowed to talk about them without their permission and oversight. Which is pretty unrealistic as a concern, but is definitely in the mix.

The second is kind of like credit score anxiety - the idea that there might be some sort of inaccessible dataset which will prevent you from getting what you want - whether a loan or a date. This is also fairly minor - the chances of both the ex and the intended date being on this network, _and_ the ex having uploaded a scoresheet, _and_ the intended date deciding to search for it seem pretty mininal.

The third isn't about the dating implications so much as the security implications - how this data is stored, how secure it is, how it interfaces with Facebook. That ties in to some degree with the stated purpose of the site, but the concerns are not peculiar to it.
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:44 PM on February 14, 2013


corb, for me it is the shallowness that these apps lend themselves to, where the judgment is based on looks or money, as well as the fact that it seems to be celebrating those shallow judgments, which makes it so...ugly, I guess.

Yes, we all judge, but I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. And these apps seem tailor-made for unhappy, rejected partners to get their revenge fantasies on and spew some hateful judgments across the entire internet.

So, yes, that's pretty bad, to me.

I wouldn't care if shallow people using silly apps trashed me, but then I'm not out in the dating world trying to meet potential partners (thank goodness!). I'm also not on Facebook much, because the insidiousness of Facebook "connectivity" bugs me. I don't trust Facebook's security (at least half of the people I know who have are regulars on Facebook have had issues with identity theft) and I don't want to share my entire life with every person I ran into back in high school. If you have no issue with Facebook, that's fine, but if I were a guy, I'd be wary of any apps that make you supply your Facebook account data to log in, too.
posted by misha at 12:58 PM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Since guys rate women numerically when we see them

Speak for yourself there.
posted by Mezentian at 9:02 PM on February 15, 2013


Seconding Mezentian.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:20 PM on February 15, 2013


implying that women use the term 'amazeballs' is virulent and hateful misogyny
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:42 PM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Things like this make me glad that I'm just a sad old fart with only a sweet little cat for company.
posted by Decani at 9:03 AM on February 16, 2013


#ThinksI'mHisPet
posted by colie at 10:46 AM on February 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Only vaguely apropos, but the participants in this thread might find this Escapist thread interesting in that its an attempt to get at knee jerk MRA behavior on a gaming forum, and I don't see a better thread to drop it in at the moment:

I'm tired of the anti-feminist circlejerk here (and every where else on the internet).

The balance of comments is more encouraging than I'd have expected for that environment.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:45 PM on February 18, 2013


Man, but those first responses are awful.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:01 PM on February 18, 2013


Yeah, it's not until around "bananafishtoday" posts that things start to improve. But some of the discussion that goes on after that despite the persistent noise is nice to see happening on a site like that. And also to see some of the participants take a shot at cluing in some of the more reachable of their misled counterparts.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:09 PM on February 18, 2013


That encourages me, and I hope it continues. When I read The Escapist, I didn't hang out in the forums. The conversation was either crude, poisonous, or both.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:20 PM on February 18, 2013


Isn't the real fear that employers might check this data on prospective hires?

Just screw up your gender setting on facebook folks. If enough do so, it might piss them off enough to ban rating applications. And screwing up facebook is an intrinsic good regardless.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:22 PM on February 19, 2013


Just screw up your gender setting on facebook folks. If enough do so, it might piss them off enough to ban rating applications. And screwing up facebook is an intrinsic good regardless.

Screwing up a very useful site for obscure ideological reasons is an awesome idea!
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:38 PM on February 19, 2013


If you really don't want to be part of all this stuff, then you have to get off Facebook. Just like in the old days if you really couldn't handle prank calls you had to have no phone. Nobody takes any of this stuff seriously.
posted by colie at 2:50 PM on February 19, 2013


Oh man, you must be one of those folks that just ticks everything to public and accepts every app invite.
posted by klangklangston at 2:50 PM on February 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh man, you must be one of those folks that just ticks everything to public and accepts every app invite.

I'm not even on Facebook. But I might consider it if more stupid anonymous hookup stuff like Lulu comes along.

Best Lulu tweet I've seen today: "If my Lulu review does not include anything about my collection of shrunken heads, the rating system must be broken."
posted by colie at 2:54 PM on February 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Overwhelmed and Creeped Out: Inventing a Dating App That Women Will Actually Use
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:04 PM on February 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Interesting link. I've been saying “the goal [is] to make a Web site where .. only women can make the first move” for years, well that obviously solves many dating site problems. It's cool that sites like Coffee Meets Bagel and Three Day Rule are trying this out.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:26 PM on February 27, 2013


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