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How Pegging Can Save the World
March 1, 2013 3:39 PM   Subscribe

If You Want a More Thoughtful Boyfriend, Try Pegging Him. Want to make straight men better in bed — and better feminist allies? The path may be simple: fuck them up the ass. According to one brand new book, the path to making men more compassionate, appreciative and playful may be straight through their butts.
posted by Blasdelb (158 comments total) 34 users marked this as a favorite

 
On one hand, okay, I can see the logic here. On the other hand, given the way male-receptive anal sex is considered by most heterosexual folks, I'm pretty sure your population of men willing to get pegged and your population of men who are already solid feminist allies has some pretty substantial overlap.
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:48 PM on March 1, 2013 [47 favorites]


The comments section appears to be up in arms, but as a straight man I have to say that I can't find anything really objectionable about this idea. The projected benefits might be overstated, and I guess just logistically speaking pegging isn't strictly equivalent to vaginal intercourse if that's the particular duality you're basing this on, but otherwise, sure, why not.

Also, when did Gawker Media sites start breaking the Back button? Or is it just this page, or is it just me?
posted by invitapriore at 3:51 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm pretty sure your population of men willing to get pegged and your population of men who are already solid feminist allies has some pretty substantial overlap.

Having worked on the, uh, supply-side of this: you'd really, realy be surprised.
posted by griphus at 3:51 PM on March 1, 2013 [27 favorites]


The article describes a lot of theory. No testimony from satisfied customers is provided.
posted by Diablevert at 3:52 PM on March 1, 2013 [10 favorites]


Also I hope the apparent callout to North by Northwest in the headline image is intentional. I'm still amused either way.
posted by invitapriore at 3:54 PM on March 1, 2013


Having worked on the, uh, supply-side of this: you'd really, realy be surprised.

...you know, you're probably right.
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:55 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


"Also, when did Gawker Media sites start breaking the Back button? Or is it just this page, or is it just me?"

It's not just you.

"The comments section appears to be up in arms, but as a straight man I have to say that I can't find anything really objectionable about this idea."

Yeah, it was pretty fucking hilarious the amount of homopanic going on there. "No self-respecting straight man would want anything near his ass!" As if the rectum was the secret talisman of straightness that must be protected at all costs!
posted by klangklangston at 3:55 PM on March 1, 2013 [59 favorites]


As if the rectum was the secret talisman of straightness that must be protected at all costs!

Well it was secret.

Thanks a lot, jerk.
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:56 PM on March 1, 2013 [79 favorites]


Take a look at the forums on Aneros some time. There are a ton of hetero guy who have discovered the magic prostate. Are they better human beings for it? Beats me.

You know who loves ass play? Gay guys. And no one shames bottoms quite like them. So, while I don't think prostate play = a more empathetic, less myogimistic/homophobic, it is certainly a step in the right direction.
posted by munchingzombie at 3:57 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


I have to say, my experiences of seeing if the same theory works on women have not had a high success rate in the sympathetic receptivity stakes. "Second hole down from the back of the neck, Devonian,if you would be so kind."
posted by Devonian at 3:58 PM on March 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


"prostate play" is a terrible terrible way to market this. It sounds like one of those disturbingly upbeat pamphlets with smiling faces on the cover that your doctor gives you.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:59 PM on March 1, 2013 [8 favorites]


I can't help but thing that the idea that you can improve a man's thoughtfulness by pegging him has a bit of a parallel with the idea that a woman's [insert negative quality here] can be improved if she just had a good sexual experience.
posted by davejay at 3:59 PM on March 1, 2013 [122 favorites]


the apparent callout to North by Northwest

Back when the movies couldn't show nudity or even frank talk about sex, showing a couple aboard a train as it entered a tunnel was Visual Film Language for "and then they had sex." I was told this in the 1980's, and having been born in 1964 had never seen this until I saw North by Northwest and I actually said aloud, "Wait, you mean they actually did that?"
posted by localroger at 3:59 PM on March 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm torn between making a "broke back button mountain" joke or a "Christ what an asshole" joke.
posted by chavenet at 4:00 PM on March 1, 2013 [23 favorites]


Um, aren't we making some lady preference assumptions here too?
posted by Artw at 4:01 PM on March 1, 2013


I had a woman I was dating suggest this. I thought about it and then we had one of the least sexy but most interesting moments of "we're both naked, grab the laptop and google" ever, which involved the intersection of this and hemorrhoids, as I'd had issues with them requiring the attention of minor inpatient surgery relatively recently. But I'd have been willing to try it.

(It's contraindicated, by the way.)
posted by mephron at 4:01 PM on March 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


Personally, I'd just as soon not have Jezebel weigh in on which kinks of mine are subversively progressive and which reflect poorly on my sexuopolitical identity.

Sometimes a strap-on is just a strap-on.
posted by dephlogisticated at 4:02 PM on March 1, 2013 [38 favorites]


Yay for encouraging people to try out sexual things they might find fun. But I do get tired of the moralistic evangelizing that always seems to infect writing about sexual practices. "You should enjoy having sex the way I enjoy having sex and if you don't you're probably a bad person" isn't really all that cool a sentiment, whether it's being marshaled in support of pegging, or polyamory, or in support of man-on-woman missionary-style sex.
posted by yoink at 4:05 PM on March 1, 2013 [55 favorites]


In his Myth of the Modern Homosexual, historian and cultural theorist Rictor Norton explains that the term "asshole" developed as a homophobic (and thus woman-hating) slur; while women and men both have rectums, a man who is anally penetrated has lost his manhood, and thus become feminized.
This strikes me as a load of nonsense. It certainly doesn't describe my sensibility going into this particular insult. You call a man an asshole not because he's passive, but because he's gratuitously obnoxious. The kind of shameless offensiveness that I associate with an actual asshole is something that women don't seem to embody as often as men. Of course, I'm not a cultural theorist, so I'm can't claim to be an expert on assholes.

Oh, and homophobic = woman-hating? I guess that's obvious enough to this author to only warrant a parenthetical aside. How much BS can you pack into one sentence (no pun intended)?
posted by Edgewise at 4:05 PM on March 1, 2013 [7 favorites]


male chauvinist peg
posted by found missing at 4:05 PM on March 1, 2013 [10 favorites]


Whatever floats your boat. How about suggesting that more women do pegging, just so that men see that feminists who are really ardent about this are providing equal time.

Come (no pun intended) to think of it, one of the things that might help women better understand men would be to deeply explore what it's like for a young man with a runaway testosterone drive - pick almost any teenaged boy, or most men, up to age 30. Perhaps insights gained form that exploration might make *some* women - those who are most judgmental about men - more compassionate, appreciative, relative to their beliefs about the male understanding of women. Sex would be better, too!
posted by Vibrissae at 4:06 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm leery about giving this advice to my lady friends as it once ended in a kitten's denfenestration, my ex-girlfriend moving in with a vampire hunter, and me getting my very first psychopathic stalker. I did get a cool pair of sunglasses in the deal, though.
posted by sonascope at 4:08 PM on March 1, 2013 [38 favorites]


Back when the movies couldn't show nudity or even frank talk about sex, showing a couple aboard a train as it entered a tunnel was Visual Film Language for "and then they had sex." I was told this in the 1980's, and having been born in 1964 had never seen this until I saw North by Northwest and I actually said aloud, "Wait, you mean they actually did that?"

Did they ever do it in any other film? I don't think this was, in fact, an available film cliche when Hitchcock did it, he just relied on the audience getting the connection between the lovers snuggling up on the train and the quick cut to train entering a tunnel.
posted by yoink at 4:08 PM on March 1, 2013


When sonascope's comments get shorter, the awesomeness just gets denser.
posted by Diablevert at 4:09 PM on March 1, 2013 [13 favorites]


This seems like as good a time as any to ask something I've always been curious about: are there any semi-reliable estimates on what percentage of gay men never engage in anal sex (but are sexually active in other ways)?
posted by the bricabrac man at 4:11 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


Shades of the eighties when there was that whole "penetration: inherently bad, even if it is just us girls?" thing in the lesbian crowd. Or the whole caudal sex deal way back when.

People get waaaay too political.
posted by adipocere at 4:15 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


I don't think I'm comfortable with the idea of assigning any specific sex act this kind of political urgency. I'm a man who has sex with women, and identify as a feminist, and anuses (ani?) gross me out. I am actively disinterested in being anally penetrated or anally penetrating anyone else. I fully support consensual anal sex for anyone who wants it. But...sex is personal. I get the sexual politics at play in the article linked, but the prescriptive tone kind of disturbs me.
posted by threeants at 4:16 PM on March 1, 2013 [6 favorites]


Yeah, it was pretty fucking hilarious the amount of homopanic going on there. "No self-respecting straight man would want anything near his ass!" As if the rectum was the secret talisman of straightness that must be protected at all costs!
posted by klangklangston at 3:55 PM on March 1 [6 favorites +][!]


A friend of mine (woman) said that any guy she dated loved ass play and sticking her finger up the down pipe was always very well recieved. Also - Dan Savage said it best - that having something shoved up your ass did not make you gay - wanting to be with a dude when you are a dude makes gay. Amen to that.
posted by helmutdog at 4:16 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


"prostate play" is a terrible terrible way to market this.

How about "gland-handing"?
posted by orme at 4:18 PM on March 1, 2013 [37 favorites]


Yay for encouraging people to try out sexual things they might find fun. But I do get tired of the moralistic evangelizing that always seems to infect writing about sexual practices.

THIS.

There are some sexual things that each of us just plain doesn't like, even after we've tried them. And any implication that we are somehow a less advanced/enlightened person simply because we don't do [foo] or [baz] kinda sucks. Someone isn't less of a feminist or less of a liberal or less of an anything if they have the genuine reaction that "y'know, this sensory input reminds me too much of taking a crap and that's really unsexy".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:19 PM on March 1, 2013 [30 favorites]


not touching that with a 10-foot pole....
posted by photoslob at 4:20 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


invitapriore: "Also, when did Gawker Media sites start breaking the Back button"

Is that a euphemism?
posted by brundlefly at 4:20 PM on March 1, 2013 [7 favorites]


griphus:
I'm pretty sure your population of men willing to get pegged and your population of men who are already solid feminist allies has some pretty substantial overlap.

Having worked on the, uh, supply-side of this: you'd really, realy be surprised.


munchingzombie:
You know who loves ass play? Gay guys. And no one shames bottoms quite like them. So, while I don't think prostate play = a more empathetic, less myogimistic/homophobic, it is certainly a step in the right direction.

I came in here to make some sort of combination of these two comments, except my version of "supply side" was a little bit more...um...direct than griphus's. I do think that getting fucked is a good thing for all men to try, but it's certainly not a cure all. I'm fairly sure being on the wrong side of the patriarchy is what makes gay men more empathetic (if they, in fact, are), not discovering the pleasure of the prostate.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 4:20 PM on March 1, 2013 [5 favorites]


NO. FUCKING. WAY.
posted by Renoroc at 4:26 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


This Hugo guy's woman-abusing backstory is truly frightening and it's sad that he gets so many page views as someone speaking for any gender.
posted by steinsaltz at 4:30 PM on March 1, 2013 [7 favorites]


NO. FUCKING. WAY.

Serious question: What's the reason for your emphatic opposition?
posted by orme at 4:32 PM on March 1, 2013


Did they ever do it (Train into tunnel = sex) in any other film? I don't think this was, in fact, an available film cliche when Hitchcock did it

Lots of them in fact, but probably none you would be likely to see, as a lot of them were made before Citizen Kane introduced so many of the pacing and editing tropes that modern viewers depend on. Remember, it was once scandalous for Clark Gable to say Damn.

In addition to the prurience aversion, in the early years film depended on a lot of metaphors and allusions, as stage plays still do, because so much couldn't be depicted literally. Hitchcock may not have needed the allusion in 1959 but it was certainly part of a history he had learned in the process of learning his craft, and there's no doubt in this is what Hitch was doing when he ended the film, not with the train receding into the distance, but with it entering the tunnel. In fact, with what one might even call a close-up penetration shot of the tunnel entry.
posted by localroger at 4:33 PM on March 1, 2013


I've suggested this in my marriage and it's perfectly within my husband's rights to say, "Yeah, I don't think I'd be into this." (And he isn't, but I'm not into it either)

It certainly doesn't make me look at him and go, HOMOPHOBIC UPTIGHT MALE ALERT.

So on preview, everything Empress and yoink said.
posted by Kitteh at 4:37 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Hugo isn't a guy I'd have pegged as a Jezebel contributor, really.
posted by octobersurprise at 4:38 PM on March 1, 2013 [6 favorites]


griphus: " I'm pretty sure your population of men willing to get pegged and your population of men who are already solid feminist allies has some pretty substantial overlap.

Having worked on the, uh, supply-side of this: you'd really, realy be surprised
"

I'm hoping there's not a lot of trickle-down?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:39 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh? That's pegging?

Until about a minute ago, "pegging" was what we used to do to our pants to make them skinny, before there were skinny pants.

And I was all, "I'm good as far as feminism goes. Got that one covered."

But I guess I'm not good, after all.
posted by notyou at 4:46 PM on March 1, 2013 [15 favorites]


Lots of them in fact,

Could you cite some examples? I watch HUGE quantities of pre-Citizen Kane films and not a single example is coming to my mind. For it to be an established trope it would need to occur in a pretty wide range of films.
posted by yoink at 4:47 PM on March 1, 2013


> this Hugo guy

ick. heard of him -- Ew.

Eschew. Thanks for the warning.
Goatse for the new millenium, links like that.
posted by hank at 4:47 PM on March 1, 2013


I'm hoping there's not a lot of trickle-down?

Fortunately, I only have one NO YOU CANNOT RETURN THIS story and, even more fortunately, that's about the entire story.
posted by griphus at 4:47 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


You know, I'm probably more enthusiastic about buggery than most, but I'm kinda weirded out when it gets advocated as a political manifesto or a ticket to enlightenment. And oh, it's that guy.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:50 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


A friend of mine (woman) said that any guy she dated loved ass play and sticking her finger up the down pipe was always very well recieved

Especially during a blowjop. I thought pretty much everybody knew this.
posted by jonmc at 4:50 PM on March 1, 2013


blow job. with a B. I need to get a new day jop.
posted by jonmc at 4:51 PM on March 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


I also seem to remember that old Sacher-Masoch turned out to be something of a power-bottom who abused his tops into topping him. Which is another reason to be skeptical.

Especially during a blowjop.

It sweeps, it mops, it curls your toes. It's the blowjop! only available on television, limited quantities available, call now!
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:55 PM on March 1, 2013 [11 favorites]


If you like sex of 'this' type you are good, if you don't like sex of 'that' type you are bad. I really don't give 2 cents about other people's sex lives, and can generally tell a feminist from a non. So just as I happily stay out of the sex lives of others, stay the hell out of mine.

So what sex act refusal indicates you are racist?
posted by edgeways at 4:55 PM on March 1, 2013


ick. heard of him -- Ew.

Yeah, I mean "ad hominem" and all that but he is, after all, dispensing advice on how to be a thoughtful boyfriend and he might not really be tuned in to what that means.
posted by steinsaltz at 4:57 PM on March 1, 2013


"This Hugo guy's woman-abusing backstory is truly frightening and it's sad that he gets so many page views as someone speaking for any gender."

I read that page — it seems to really, even maybe libelously, misrepresent what the guy wrote if you follow their links. Are there specific concerns that I might have missed?
posted by klangklangston at 4:58 PM on March 1, 2013 [7 favorites]


It wasn't the best link, but here, and the Web is full of stuff on what a creepy mutant this guy is towards women.
posted by steinsaltz at 4:59 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


And oh, it's that guy.

I think the real worry here is that by endorsing it Hugo Schwyzer makes buggery uncool.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:01 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


Isn't the larger point of sexual freedom that there is no normative, gold-standard way for people to enjoy themselves?

So this is kind of stoopid.
posted by bardic at 5:05 PM on March 1, 2013 [9 favorites]


I think open and frank discussions about sex are pretty cool and having open and frank discussions about what you do and don't like about sex will probably make your partner more empathetic to your experiences.

I don't think any specific sexual act will help with that any more with any other. For god's sakes, any woman can tell you front door =/= back door (even if she enjoys both!).
posted by dinty_moore at 5:06 PM on March 1, 2013


"It wasn't the best link, but here, and the Web is full of stuff on what a creepy mutant this guy is towards women."

Even that one is hamstrung by the fact that the original thing he wrote about trying to kill an ex girlfriend while in the depths of drug addiction is now gone from the web, as far as I can find. The caches are empty.
posted by klangklangston at 5:06 PM on March 1, 2013


This Hugo guy's woman-abusing backstory is truly frightening

I've never heard of this guy before this thread, so I followed your link, which certainly makes some really terrible accusations. It also, however, provides links that are supposed to support those accusations and they really, really don't. I mean, the "rapist" one links to a piece where he says that as a student many years ago his girlfriend confessed to him that she sometimes agreed to sex when she'd really rather not have done so and he felt terrible. To say that that is admitting to "rape" is like saying that you were "forcibly kidnapped" that time you went to a party but you'd really rather have stayed home.

And the link that accuses him of being "racist" is to a piece he wrote where he says that he doesn't reject every single thing about his WASPy family background and that some of the criticisms of WASP culture aren't fair.

The link to the piece about him intending to murder his ex-girlfriend was dead, so maybe there was some substance there, but given the ridiculous exaggeration in the other cases, I'm not feeling like extending the benefit of the doubt.

This guy might be a total asshole (and I've already voiced my reservations about the linked piece), but so far I've seen no evidence to really support that claim.
posted by yoink at 5:08 PM on March 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


Call me Al Bundy, 'cause tonight I'm gettin' Peg'd!
posted by wcfields at 5:09 PM on March 1, 2013 [5 favorites]


It wasn't the best link, but here, and the Web is full of stuff on what a creepy mutant this guy is towards women.

I want to preface this by saying that I am to the best of my knowledge unfamiliar with this person and his writings previous to today, so I have really zero reason to defend this guy, but none of these links seem to back up what are HUGE accusations about a person. Like, at all. It's like some straight up Fox News clown town character assassination. I mean, if you're gonna call someone a racist and a rapist and a would-be murderer, like wow, that so needs some kind of serious corroboration in the worst way. I'm not saying that doesn't exist, but if it does exist, can we see it? Because otherwise, I really think casually just asserting that stuff as truefax isn't very cool.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:14 PM on March 1, 2013 [7 favorites]


Here, by the way, is the "confession" of his attempt to "murder his girlfriend." Again, this seems like a pretty tendentious way to describe what happened here.
posted by yoink at 5:24 PM on March 1, 2013


Here's an atlantic article that talks about the controversy.

Guys who call themselves feminists can be seriously creepy dudes, too. Not 100% on the rape charge (I've only heard of him in passing and really, the would-be murderer part was enough), but I'm not just going to think it's character assassination because he calls himself a feminist.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:25 PM on March 1, 2013


No doubt there are men whose fragile sense of masculinity is contingent on the virginal status of their buttholes, and that's sad. But playing politics with sexuality and intimacy is a real dick-shriveler no matter where it's from on the ideological spectrum.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:29 PM on March 1, 2013 [7 favorites]


I thought some people just liked to keep poop out of the bedroom.
posted by dunkadunc at 5:31 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


I think it's silly to think this sort of thing would change a person. Maybe they'd discover something they do/don't like, but that's about it.

And I don't think it's very taboo either, although I'd be willing to bet that most people have never tried it.

Also, gender roles suck, but almost everybody plays them in some way or another.
posted by nowhere man at 5:32 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


Straight men know about their prostates. They don't, based on conversations I've had on the subject, know their NIPPLES, and starting there is a less threatening (and in my experience an infinitely more pleasurable) place to start. Hell of a lot easier for both parties to boot.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 5:32 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


Here, by the way, is the "confession" of his attempt to "murder his girlfriend." Again, this seems like a pretty tendentious way to describe what happened here.

Uh. No. He was planning to commit a murder-suicide. He had decided that he knew what was best for her and tried to end both of their lives through carbon monoxide poisoning. He was high at the time, yes. But jesus fuck, that's not okay.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:33 PM on March 1, 2013 [5 favorites]


my ex-girlfriend moving in with a vampire hunter


.....Spike?
posted by The Whelk at 5:36 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


invitapriore: "Also, when did Gawker Media sites start breaking the Back button"

Is that a euphemism?


Hash bang.
posted by Artw at 5:37 PM on March 1, 2013


I think it's worth mentioning, a small part of the growing acceptance with buttplay is "plugging" in the alkaloid-enthusiast culture. A few guys out there have noted that when they splash curtains drugs into their corn hole with a syringe (sans needle) it provides a similar rush and higher bioavailability without the risks associated with IV drug use.

Of course, this is second hand info, so um... Yeah.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 5:40 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Really not helping keep H glamorous there.
posted by Artw at 5:42 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


I read the Hugo "planning to murder his ex" piece when it was live. This is what I remember:

That he decided that he and his girlfriend would both be better off dead - both were depressed and messed up and drunks, if I remember correctly. He tried to kill them by turning on the gas but it didn't work.

The part that was creepy to a lot of people was how he had this whole sort of gross "I am so special and I was really messed up back then in a deep profound way but now I am a feminist" thing going on but never seemed to say anything about "I thought I was entitled to kill my girlfriend and the fact that I have this violent and abusive history means that I should be a little thoughtful about setting myself up as a feminist hero". He's a creeper. It was a really disturbing story, and not so much because of the whole "being an addict and almost doing something really really terrible" part as because of the whole "I am telling this story in a way that reveals that my thinking on this matter is totally fucked up" way.

It is not the only disturbing thing he's done or said. If he is in fact breaking out some kind of "pegging will make men more feminist" line (I don't want to give him the pageviews, ew) then that is precisely the kind of messed-up biological essentialist gross assertion that I'd expect him to make.
posted by Frowner at 5:43 PM on March 1, 2013 [11 favorites]


Uh. No. He was planning to commit a murder-suicide. He had decided that he knew what was best for her and tried to end both of their lives through carbon monoxide poisoning. He was high at the time, yes. But jesus fuck, that's not okay.

To be honest, that story sounds very James Frey to me; I basically just don't buy it. But it certainly bears out the idea that the guy is kind of a douche, which I certainly can intuit. I think that taking this story at face value is the worst response to it, really. I doubt he's a would-be murderer, but I strongly suspect he's a hardcore bullshit artist.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:44 PM on March 1, 2013 [6 favorites]


Or did he actually turn on the gas? Maybe he just planned to and was too high? Oh lord it was creepy though.
posted by Frowner at 5:44 PM on March 1, 2013


Uh. No. He was planning to commit a murder-suicide. He had decided that he knew what was best for her and tried to end both of their lives through carbon monoxide poisoning. He was high at the time, yes. But jesus fuck, that's not okay.

No one has said it's "okay"--including Hugo Schwyzer. But there's a pretty significant difference between this spur-of-the-drug-crazed-moment hitting-rock-bottom story and what people are trying to suggest when they describe this as "confessing" to "planning" the "murder" of his girlfriend. I'm not remotely trying to excuse his actions, but there's a reason that if you're trying to paint Schwyzer as unsympathetically as possible you don't provide any of the context of the story and you just talk about him cooking up a scheme to murder his girlfriend.
posted by yoink at 5:45 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Can we go back to talking about putting things in the butt?
posted by Justinian at 5:47 PM on March 1, 2013 [33 favorites]


Personally, I'd just as soon not have Jezebel weigh in on which kinks of mine are subversively progressive and which reflect poorly on my sexuopolitical identity.

Then how will you know? Which site would you prefer?
posted by bongo_x at 5:48 PM on March 1, 2013


I'm not remotely trying to excuse his actions, but there's a reason that if you're trying to paint Schwyzer as unsympathetically as possible you don't provide any of the context of the story and you just talk about him cooking up a scheme to murder his girlfriend.

I don't think that's the case, because as Frowner mentions, reading the way he talks about it years later (making the fact that he tried to kill his ex all about him! And his pain!) when he's sober makes him even creepier.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:49 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


The payoff for clearing those hurdles, Glickman says, is nothing less than the radical transformation of heterosexual sex

Uh huh. That's totally not hyperbole.

The idea that penetration is an act of dominance is almost certainly tied in to sexism and the notion that the woman's role is inferior. Plenty of men have absorbed these ideas at a subconscious level.

Plenty of men haven't had their partner on top of them for hours riding them like it's a steeplechase and waking up dehydrated. My wife's an f'ing Klingon man.
But even so, most men haven't really thought it over in the first place. There's no way a penis is superior to a vagina whether it penetrates it or not. There's no way a vein beats a muscle mass that can squeeze out a 7lb 8oz little sumo much less carry it for weeks. You could be hung, literally, like a horse (average is what, 18 inches - babies are 18 to 22, weight aside) and it's still no contest.

There are some sexual things that each of us just plain doesn't like, even after we've tried them
Pretty open about sex myself and there are some things I know I won't like even before I've tried them. Not to lay anything on anyone else. I know my thing. My comfort level.

Bear with me here, it's an allegory - I have a great doctor. Probably comes from me being dinged up all the time but really he knows my body. Very practical and straightforward too. I've had hemorrhoids, mostly from being in the field, one time I got them pretty bad. Some doctors talk about surgery, rubber bands, pills, yadda yadda regardless of whether they know their patent is active, eats right, etc.
He asked me "Do you read on the toilet?"
"Yeah."
"Stop. Or they'll bleed pretty bad."
So I don't read on the toilet anymore. No matter how great I think the book might be.
posted by Smedleyman at 5:51 PM on March 1, 2013 [6 favorites]


Then how will you know? Which site would you prefer?

Let's face it, everyone is probably just going to go with whatever Dan Savage says.
posted by Artw at 5:51 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


The part that was creepy to a lot of people was how he had this whole sort of gross "I am so special and I was really messed up back then in a deep profound way but now I am a feminist" thing going on but never seemed to say anything about "I thought I was entitled to kill my girlfriend and the fact that I have this violent and abusive history means that I should be a little thoughtful about setting myself up as a feminist hero".

I don't know. I think people are taking away what they want to take away here.
Long story short, I survived. So did my ex. We both spent 24 hours in ICU, and then were transferred to separate psychiatric units. I never saw her again. The sheriff’s department didn’t arrest me because they assumed that the two of us were in a suicide pact. But I knew differently, and in a fit of remorse, confessed what I had done to a hospital psychiatrist. My ex, once she regained her faculties, was devastated. As bad as things were, she didn’t want “out” — and felt shocked and unfathomably betrayed by our my unilateral decision to kill us both. My ex’s parents, who were prominent and powerful, were furious. They had known me, and for a time, liked me. They certainly never imagined I would try and kill their daughter. But both parents and daughter also made it clear that they didn’t want to press charges. They just wanted to make sure that we never saw each other again. And we never have. (I’m happy to say that through mutual acquaintances I have learned that this ex got sober, turned her life around, and is married and living happily in the south.)

I’ve checked with a couple of attorney friends of mine, and according to them, I’m at no legal risk for disclosing now what took place in 1998. (And yes, as part of my amends process in recovery, I even disclosed this story to my supervisors at the college, and told it to the college president.) I share it now not to shock or , but because I want to make it clear I live with a keen sense of what my friend Bill is talking about when he talks of being haunted by what might have been. No one died on June 27, 1998, largely through luck. Enough gas was released to blow up the apartment and perhaps kill our neighbors as well as my ex and me. I attempted a serious crime that miraculously caused no lasting harm. Intoxicated or not, I could have easily been charged with attempted murder, and it was the decision of my ex and her parents (as well as the sheriff’s department) to spare me from what could have been a wrenching but deserved legal penalty.

For years afterwards, I was haunted by fears that my ex’s family or the district attorney might bring charges. Far worse was the guilt, the sense of horror at what I’d tried to do. What if I had succeeded in killing us both? What if, perhaps worse, I had killed her but had myself survived? Could I forgive myself? It was hard enough forgiving myself (and seeking forgiveness) for what I had tried to do. It was incomprehensible to think about what might have been had I not made that drunken phone call, or the door not been kicked in in time.
There seems to me to be a pretty heavy emphasis on remorse and guilt here. I'm not sure that it's fair to suggest he should somehow conclude "and so I realized I'm just a completely irredeemable asshole who should never ever be listened to about anything." Is there really no possible path of redemption back from such a place?
posted by yoink at 5:52 PM on March 1, 2013 [8 favorites]


(making the fact that he tried to kill his ex all about him! And his pain!)

How else should he talk about it, then? He only has access to what was going on in his mind, and how he subsequently tried to move on from it.

on preview: what yoink said.
posted by hopeless romantique at 5:53 PM on March 1, 2013


OK it took me until the 'returns' comment to figure out that griphus was talking about selling apparatus and not pegging husbands himself. One less thing to wrap my... head around in this thread.
posted by carsonb at 5:58 PM on March 1, 2013 [12 favorites]


oh my
posted by griphus at 6:00 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


Same! I spent a lot of mental energy trying to parse that comment.
posted by something something at 6:07 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yep, I also thought "supply side" was a euphemism for griphus' sexual escapades. Which made the returns comment even harder to understand!
posted by crossoverman at 6:10 PM on March 1, 2013 [7 favorites]


That's nothing, I take returns and do lay away.
posted by found missing at 6:12 PM on March 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


Can we go back to talking about putting things in the butt?

Sure.
posted by jonmc at 6:13 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


I am not clicking on that.
posted by found missing at 6:14 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


"Do You..." (sytl)
posted by stifford at 6:15 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


I thought griphus was saying he was some sort of pimp.
posted by desjardins at 6:19 PM on March 1, 2013


I know I'm late to the discussion here, and I haven't read all the comments. However, I thought a big part of being a feminist (or at least just being someone who respects other people as human beings) was divorcing what sexual kinks and things you have in the bedroom from sociopolitical statements.

Maybe others have said that already.

I just told my lady friend about this article via text. Her response? "What? Well, if you want me to." That's sort of the way it should go.
posted by King Bee at 6:30 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


Won't you smile for the camera
I know I'll you'll love you me better

Peg!

You'll come, back to me!
posted by dubold at 6:34 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Ahahahahaahahahahahahaahahaaa... Heh... Ahem.
<snrrrk>
heh. <cough>
Wait, they really mean that?
Ahahaahahahahahaahhahaahaa, C'mon guys, killin' me here!

Okay, more seriously... This rag makes a completely baseless assertion that somehow acting on the "receptive" side of sex makes you more feminine, and yet, they can look at themselves in the mirror every morning and respect what they see?

Sorry, but just no. All guys try it. Some really get off on it. It doesn't change their political views, whatever these asshats may claim.


/ Meh, feels nice enough, but cleanup takes more effort than the pleasure justifies.
posted by pla at 6:45 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


some of our most powerful louisiana (republican) politicians are said to enjoy different kinds of hired sex, including this practice.

perhaps it's just that pegging (well, also the wearing of diapers) is the thing that gets repeated more often than simple whoring, because it's out of people's range of experience.

But either way, just as my first reaction to the premise of the article, i associate this and other kinds of colorful sexual activity with powerful people that have the money and time to buy it, and those are people who are not feminist allies in any way.
posted by eustatic at 6:49 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


One could have written essentially the same article, making the same points, in a less didactic way. Didacticism is generally unsexy. For instance: "The payoff for clearing those hurdles, Glickman says, is nothing less than the radical transformation of heterosexual sex." I see their point, but I wonder if they stopped to consider that many people would actually prefer something less than a radical transformation of heterosexual sex.
posted by John Cohen at 6:50 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


When sonascope's comments get shorter, the awesomeness just gets denser.

PREVIOUSLY ON THE AQUABATS!

Also, y'all are being trolled and hard by a perv with a fetish... there's an earnest article about pegging as a political act, and you fell for it? Someone is giggling all the way to the tissue box, all I'm saying.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:50 PM on March 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


Also, when it comes to kinky sex....well, if someone has a fantasy about doing something to you (unless it's truly warped) that's a turnon, plus there's always the chance you'll enjoy the act itself.
posted by jonmc at 6:52 PM on March 1, 2013


old Sacher-Masoch

I remember this guy. Doesn't Lovecraft mention him somewhere?
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:05 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


nothing makes the world better than telling people they're broken until they participate in a sex act they have no interest in. and this isn't some unsubstantiated claim, oh no, there have been longitudinal surveys and experimental studies proving this fact.
posted by cupcake1337 at 7:12 PM on March 1, 2013 [6 favorites]


Schwyzer has also engaged in silencing female bloggers of color, described his role in feminism as "herding sluts", and advocated that facials are a feminist act.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:16 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm agnostic on his personal sexual ethics. The whole combination of milking his 15 minutes as a talking head, playing the 3rd wave John Stoltenberg, gushing about his circumcision, and pulling one-true-wayism on other feminists (no, I don't have links) rubs me the wrong way.

Plugging pegging as a parity panacea is a polyanna proposal for problematic pairings. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Doesn't Lovecraft mention him somewhere?

I don't know, but Lou Reed certainly did.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:17 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Here's an interview with Schwyzer where he talks about some of the concerns, and he at least doesn't make a complete ass of himself.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:21 PM on March 1, 2013


oh my
posted by griphus


I thought griphus was saying he was some sort of pimp.
posted by desjardins


I thought griphus was referencing George Takei.

I mean, can you really read "oh my" anywhere without hearing it in George Takei's voice?

Ok, Betty White maybe. But that just brings up a whole ball of wax that I don't want any part of.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:28 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


What

What

In the butt.
posted by orme at 7:34 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


To paraphrase Frank Zappa.

"Don't fool yourself [boy]"
posted by found missing at 7:41 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


The path may be simple: fuck them up the ass. According to one brand new book...

We need an entire book to explain all about how to fuck someone up the ass?

Must be a lot of filler.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:58 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


not touching that with a 10-foot pole....

You really only need about a 5-6" pole at most.
posted by jimmythefish at 7:59 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Personally, I'd just as soon not have Jezebel weigh in on which kinks of mine are subversively progressive and which reflect poorly on my sexuopolitical identity.

Then how will you know? Which site would you prefer?


The Awl.
posted by maryr at 8:08 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Someone using my liberal guilt against me to coerce me into doing a sexual act that I don't want to do makes me feel like I'm being raped.

That being said, stimulating the prostate makes you cum really hard, so I strongly encourage every guy who has actual, honest curiousity about it to be brave and give it a try!
posted by MrOlenCanter at 8:11 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Another potential savior: Willy Bum Bum
posted by carsonb at 8:34 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


Just plain dumb.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:34 PM on March 1, 2013


Straight men [...] don't, based on conversations I've had on the subject, know their NIPPLES
Data point: I know both of my nipples and also know that they just plain aren't wired up. Seriously. You might as well be working my elbows.
posted by plinth at 9:00 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


or a "Christ what an asshole" joke.

Here you go.
posted by homunculus at 9:40 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


Regarding Hugo: I'm no fan of his, don't really care about him much, concur that he's done some not-fabulous shit in recent years in the writing biz, etc. But I will say this for him: the dude outed himself as being a drugged-up total asshole attempted murderer. He is very, very honest about how bad he used to be. This wasn't a story outed by Perez Hilton or whoever, he outed himself. That takes...something, to out yourself as a total waste of humanity once upon a time. And that he has, for whatever it's worth, been trying to improve himself since. He ain't all the way there, I wouldn't take him as male feminist adviser for the ages, but he's not all the ass he used to be. So that impresses me somewhat.

Note the "somewhat," though.

There seems to me to be a pretty heavy emphasis on remorse and guilt here. I'm not sure that it's fair to suggest he should somehow conclude "and so I realized I'm just a completely irredeemable asshole who should never ever be listened to about anything." Is there really no possible path of redemption back from such a place?


I concur. I think in our world the answer is "no, there's no redemption, just off yourself now" though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:45 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


*blows up cheeks, lets out a loud, staccato sigh of resignation*
posted by turgid dahlia 2 at 10:32 PM on March 1, 2013


Ok, here's the thing about that Hugo murder post and why it pissed off a lot of people. The facebook image doesn't capture the whole post. At the beginning of the post, it started with him talking about his friend, Bill, who was petsitting, left a door open, and the dog got out.* The dog was found a few minutes later safe and sound, but Bill felt really guilty about it and was talking to Hugo about his guilt and looking for advice. That's why Hugo bust out the story about how he tried to murder is ex, to make his friend feel better about the dog.

Basically, the post was about how Hugo's friend felt guilty about almost losing a dog, Hugo tells him about the time he tried to murder his ex, and says, hey, I felt bad about that but I got over it so can totally get over that dog thing. If you are as feminist as Hugo says he is, and you're posting on blog that is supposed to be about feminism, then you talk about your attempted murder of your ex-girlfriend in the context of sexism, male on female intimate partner violence, male privilege, something, but not solely as an example of how to forgive yourself for terrible things.

I found this post where Hugo describes the original post.
The post was written in haste as a response to a friend’s query about forgiving oneself for a terrible error. The example my buddy Bill offered was of neglecting a dog he’d been housesitting. Foolishly, I regrettably offered the most painful example from my own life of a dreadful action – the time I tried to kill another human being and myself. It was grotesquely insensitive of me to compare what Bill had done with a pet to what I did to my ex, and I deeply regret having framed the story in that way. I also am sorry that the post was written so as to frame my feelings alone in a way that eclipsed my ex, the victim of this episode.

*Or something like that. I don't remember the exact details.
posted by nooneyouknow at 10:42 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


For me, it's not even that he told the story to his friend to make him feel better. It's that he thought it would be a good idea to introduce that attempted murder story on his feminist blog in that context.
posted by nooneyouknow at 10:48 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


As if the rectum was the secret talisman of straightness that must be protected at all costs!

My Precious!
posted by five fresh fish at 11:05 PM on March 1, 2013 [3 favorites]


So basically, he's the creep who went to Take Back The Night rallies in college to score some ass?

Gotcha.

Anyhow, this recent Jezebel piece on what women want from male feminists made some good points. I would never refer to myself directly as a "feminist" because that would be presumptuous as fuck.
posted by bardic at 11:10 PM on March 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think Mssr. Schwyzer misinterpreted all these women meant when they were telling him to take his columns and shove them up his ass.
posted by ShawnStruck at 11:39 PM on March 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm too lazy to write out most of my thoughts on this, but that the article assumes prostate play is by definition a recreation of a penis penetrating and fucking a vagina is itself revealing.

Charlie Glickman, the author of the book noted in the article, was on the Sex Nerd Sandra podcast a while back, it's worth listening to and very good, unlike this article.
posted by MillMan at 11:43 PM on March 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


I have not read the article but I can report that at least a third of my male customers want to be forcibly dressed up as women and done up the bottom with my strap on cock.. And I really, REALLY like doing it, but when they put their male clothes back on they certainly aren't better feminists, from what I can observe. Irregardless of how dominant I am, I have never been more objectified in my life than I am in my present career. That said , pegging can be really wonderful and fun for both parties. .. and bring fucked and used as a hole can be awesome, whether you're male or female.
posted by Mistress at 1:07 AM on March 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


So what sex act refusal indicates you are racist?

Brown showers.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:22 AM on March 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


Edgewise: "This strikes me as a load of nonsense. It certainly doesn't describe my sensibility going into this particular insult."

Believe it or not, the etymologies of words often turn out to have little resemblance to the ways we use those words today. I mean, I don't think of the Greek word for "pit" when I say the word "bed," but that doesn't mean it's nonsense to say that "bed" derives distantly from "bothyros."

Incidentally, when the author equates "homophobic" with "woman-hating," she or he seems to be referring to the male-female spectrum that patriarchal society judges people on. Think about it this way: gay men are most often derided for being "effeminate" or "womanish." I don't think it's a stretch to see homophobia therefore as an extension of misogyny.

To be more technical about it, what's going on is that gender-conforming men, who are supposed to be at the top of the heap, are having their status secured through the denigration of others not at the top of the spectrum; gay men are derided through an implied association with women, the message being that they are not "true" men.
posted by koeselitz at 1:40 AM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


I have not read the article but I can report that at least a third of my male customers want to be forcibly dressed up as women and done up the bottom with my strap on cock..
posted by Mistress


Eponysterical!

(This post missing it).
posted by Mezentian at 1:45 AM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm missing what? :) sorry not been coffeed yet.
posted by Mistress at 1:50 AM on March 2, 2013


No, this post was missing someone with an eponysterical tale.
Hard data, as it were.

My puns are terrible.
posted by Mezentian at 1:57 AM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ah! Happy to answer any questions about pegging and its manifestations :)
posted by Mistress at 2:05 AM on March 2, 2013


I would never refer to myself directly as a "feminist" because that would be presumptuous as fuck.

What do you mean?
posted by crossoverman at 2:12 AM on March 2, 2013


In my sample of four, the two most into anal play (we were too poor for strap-ons, so it was fingerplay/objects) were the least sexually accomodating, least emotionally available and least egalitarian. The one who was most into it (working up to self-fisting when I left) raped and sodomised me.

So no, I don't think anal play does anything to a man's view of women unless he wants it to. And if he is so lacking in empathy that he needs a cock in his ass to even try and understand my experience as a woman, I'd rather just skip being with him entirely.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:18 AM on March 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


octobersurprise: "Yeah, Hugo isn't a guy I'd have pegged as a Jezebel contributor, really."

I see what you did there.
posted by chavenet at 2:32 AM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


"I would never refer to myself directly as a 'feminist' because that would be presumptuous as fuck."

I feel like that's a descriptive word I could/should earn from my female friends and family members and colleagues, not something I can just start calling myself (speaking as a male, if that isn't clear already).
posted by bardic at 2:38 AM on March 2, 2013


Also, I'm surprised there's been no mention of Bend Over Boyfriend.

My college years weren't particularly kink-ified, but my girlfriend at the time was aware of these pegging videos (before "pegging" was a term).

This was in 1998.
posted by bardic at 2:44 AM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


"During the interview Mr. Savage educates Mr. Colbert on the practice of pegging (sexual practice)."

Sadly this video does not appear to be on the Intertubes.
But how many works has Dan Savage given to the English language?
posted by Mezentian at 3:04 AM on March 2, 2013


On the subject of Dan Savage's neologisms, santorum site has sadly dropped off the front page of google's search results!

Also, there are enough women with sexuality issues around taking a leading role, etc. so that "ask your partner to do engage in kinky sex" is spectacularly good advice epidemiologically. "Peg your boyfriend" works for this too.

I'm wondering if anyone built a vibrator that vibrates in respond to being thrust into an orifice. Also, very nice link jonmc!
posted by jeffburdges at 3:38 AM on March 2, 2013


This is why social theorists should be kept away from sharpe objects.
posted by vorpal bunny at 5:59 AM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


YES! I have been preaching this for years! This is what the world needs more of!
posted by QueerAngel28 at 6:28 AM on March 2, 2013


The world does not need more people telling other people "if only you consented to [Sexual Practice X], your mind would be changed about so many things and you would be a better person for it."
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:53 AM on March 2, 2013 [10 favorites]


Exactly. This is just the Bizzaro World version of the idea that sex with a Real Man will convert lesbians.
posted by Foosnark at 7:25 AM on March 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


In his Myth of the Modern Homosexual, historian and cultural theorist Rictor Norton explains that the term "asshole" developed as a homophobic (and thus woman-hating) slur; while women and men both have rectums, a man who is anally penetrated has lost his manhood, and thus become feminized.

And here all this time I thought it was just because poop comes out of it and it's insulting to be something whose primary purpose is to expel poop.
posted by sonika at 7:42 AM on March 2, 2013 [6 favorites]


And yes, as part of my amends process in recovery, I even disclosed this story to my supervisors at the college, and told it to the college president.) I share it now not to shock or , but because I want to make it clear I live with a keen sense of what my friend Bill is talking about when he talks of being haunted by what might have been.

So, he's in recovery, of some sort. It's been said that AA is really a program for assholes*, and I believe that's true. Some of us ex-assholes work really hard at getting better & undoing the damage we've done. This guy didn't need to go public with all this dirty laundry, and maybe he's only a few blocks down a long road to truly being an ex-asshole, but dammit I've been there in that fog of despair, and while I never tried to kill myself or anyone else, I'm going to give him a day pass on this one thing because he sounds like he's absorbed the lesson he needed to & the takeaway is the correct one - stop the drinking & drugging & make amends. We all have regrets. That's a huge one for him & he's confronting that. It doesn't absolve the act, & there's no time machine, but he's aware of its horribleness, I think. I wish him well in the furtherance of his endeavor to truly become an ex-asshole.

*the use of the word asshole in the context of this paragraph in no way constitutes a double-extendre or pun related to the original... thrust... of this thread, and I fully support the right of everyone in the world to shove, or have shoved for them, anything up their butt that feels good. You'll never know about that until you find out.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:45 AM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


I mean, what would be nice would be if people could work through their anxieties (which I think are kind of about homophobia and toxic ideas of masculinity and femininity) to the point where people could genuinely try this whole pegging business to see whether they'd like it, not because it would be a social justice transformation but because quite a few people enjoy the process and it seems a shame to miss out because you have stupid received ideas that men don't do that/women don't do that.

And of course, I think it's a good idea for any dude who wants to have anal sex with a female partner to actually have a little bit of experience being penetrated - again, not from a social justice standpoint but from a "this requires some care and thoughtfulness, buddy" standpoint which, alas, plenty of dudes lack.
posted by Frowner at 1:32 PM on March 2, 2013 [6 favorites]


I really dislike this idea that I have to try something sexual before I can say I dislike it. As if my internal and emotional reaction to an act is secondary to performing it (or having it performed on me). I mean, I obviously have my issues with anal sex and as much as I liked it before, without both parties being very much into it the act has become something tedious, uncomfortable and faintly ugly. That I had to try before saying "nope, no good" but I don't need to try fucking in public before I know I am not into exhibitionism. I don't need to roleplay before I know I don't want to roleplay. I don't need to try waxplay, or blood play, or any number of things.

Reluctance to try something is not a measure of shame, or not a reliable one, and the concept that you just 'have to give it a go' is horribly coercive.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:53 PM on March 2, 2013 [7 favorites]


Well, you're approaching it from the angle of "would I like this?" and coming up with no, and not "would this make me less of a man or I might catch the gay." that's a mature and natural response. I don't have to try it to know I don't want anyone peeing on me.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:08 PM on March 2, 2013


Umm, we're discussing fairly ordinary advocacy here folks, so no consent issues exist and nothing coercive occurs. Is it coercive for me to say you should listen to more dubstep? No. Is it coercive if your parter says it? Again no. It doesn't suddenly become coercive because it concerns unusual weird sexual behavior instead of music taste? Obviously no. Is it possible to be coercive about musical or sexual tastes? Yes of course, but that's not what's being discussed here. A blog pst saying "This is great for [reason]. Everyone should try it" simply cannot be coercive. And frankly yes the world does need more silly hippies telling everyone they should try weird personal growth stuff, sexual or otherwise.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:34 PM on March 2, 2013


Umm, we're discussing fairly ordinary advocacy here folks, so no consent issues exist and nothing coercive occurs. Is it coercive for me to say you should listen to more dubstep? No. Is it coercive if your parter says it? Again no.

Dubstep isn't part of your personal bodily integrity and self-image. For very many of us, sexual acts are.

I don't care who pegs what, but I hate the politicization of sexual acts. It's dehumanizing. For example, when reading feminist-friendly writing about sex and dating, I've noticed that it's now supposed to be some kind of feminist shibboleth that a woman should demand that her male partner go down on her, and that the man should be prepared to do just that or get kicked to the curb for being a lazy, selfish misogynist.

That squicks the hell out of me. Not everything is a test. Sometimes people need to be vulnerable with each other, and part of being vulnerable is saying, "This makes me unhappy." A sexual partner should be, above all, someone who respects your wishes -- not just someone who goes begrudgingly along with them, but respects them.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:44 PM on March 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


There is no coercion in a feminist writer saying that women should demand that men go down on them, that's simply the writer's opinion. If you dislike it so much, stop reading that writer.

There could be consent issue in *how* a woman asked that her partner go down on her, but that's not the writer's problem, well unless she explicitly advises manipulative behavior, which hopefully most feminist writers aren't doing too often.

There is a rich problematic history with women telling other women to test men obviously. Yet. tests aren't an issue of consent or coercion, they're usually simply stupid. And advising them is simply bad advice. We aren't necessarily even talking about tests though here, just people claiming "here's an experience that'll broaden your perspective." Ain't nobody here saying "act shitty until he lets you peg him."

As for body image, there isn't even a consent issue with a women's magazine publishing diets either. Now people die from anorexia, unlike most weird sex acts. So perhaps regulators should place parental warning notices. Or perhaps the magazine should need another word because regulators say nutritionists must approve the word diet in print. Yet, the magazine isn't coercing anyone.

You have no right to control what other people try to tell you, outside of very narrowly defined legal categories. You do have the right to ignore them or call them idiots. Advocacy is not coercion.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:18 PM on March 2, 2013


I, for one, welcome our new pegging overlords.
posted by kinetic at 6:54 PM on March 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


The problem I see, though, Jeff, is that the way in which the author is claiming pegging will "broaden your perspective" is, to be frank, totally kookoopants.

It's one thing to claim that a sex act could "broaden your perspective" about which sex acts you're into. It's another entirely to claim that it could "broaden your perspective" by leading you to adopt a different philosophical outlook.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 PM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


1. His assumptions about pegging are rife with gender essentialism.

2. Any man who declares himself to be a "feminist" is looking for accolades and a pat on the back. That doesn't make him a feminist. Real male feminists don't need to declare that they're feminists, they just do it.

3. I don't care how fucking high the dude was or how remorseful he may be now, I don't want or need a self-aggrandizing attempted murderer giving me or anyone else advice about how to be a better feminist. I especially don't want him giving anyone sex advice.

4. The fact that he told his story about trying to kill his girlfriend in response to a friend accidentally letting his dog out tells me that he STILL has no good judgement whatsoever and only ever thinks about himself, and his own troubles, and how he can spin his own past bad behavior to make himself look so sad and remorseful now boohoo poor feminist man. It tells me that he still doesn't give a shit about the woman he tried to kill.

5. Ever since he's confessed to these crimes and incidents and realized how they're hurting his current professional career as "feminist man", he's gone back and edited his blog posts and videos to reflect more positively on himself. He doesn't disclose his history when it would be entirely relevant, like the incident with Scarleteen.

6. He's usurping feminist spaces to make a name for himself. We don't need him to speak for us.

In summation, this guy can fuck right off. He doesn't deserve a second chance, because even if he's clean, it's clear that he hasn't truly changed his ways. The bottom line: the guy is still a narcissistic, disgusting, abusive creeper who feels the need to control feminist spaces for his own self-aggrandizement and uses his status to exert power over women in any way he can.
posted by i feel possessed at 8:05 PM on March 2, 2013 [8 favorites]


jeffburdges: "You have no right to control what other people try to tell you, outside of very narrowly defined legal categories. You do have the right to ignore them or call them idiots. Advocacy is not coercion."

Nope, but inferring that someone not wanting to engage in the act is somehow sexist/homophobic is remarkably coercive in a relationship. Presenting a sexual act that not only requires props but also is fraught with physical and emotional concerns* as something that will strengthen the relationship is, historically, a manner of interpersonal coercion into those sex acts.

When the push comes from external concerns (be it "I want to, but you don't" or "but it will lead you to salvation!") that is where the coercion comes from. I am not accusing the authors of coercing me or my partner into it, but what they are advocating has a horrible taint to it. As do the innumerable bits of advice about 'not knowing until you try it' because, again, that's a historical method of coercion in interpersonal relationships and an excellent example of pushing healthy boundaries for the sake of personal gratification.

I mean, I obviously think the authors are reaching with their conclusions, but my point about the coercive nature of the discourse remains (see: oral sex as almost mandatory and also something that apparently should have no emotional or sexual engagement and be proferred if one has the temerity to not want to engage in sex).

*I am always ill at ease with conversations about anal sex that don't address things like piles, fissures, constipation, cleanliness, prior trauma or anything like that. It's all "go poking around!" as if the receiver isn't going to think "ugh I would be into it at another time but..." - it just irritates me.
posted by geek anachronism at 8:11 PM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


what they are advocating has a horrible taint to it

ISWYDT!
posted by five fresh fish at 8:19 PM on March 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


jeffburdges: "Is it coercive for me to say you should listen to more dubstep? No."

I think it can be in certain contexts - particularly if it's phrased like this awful book seems to. If I said "you aren't my feminist ally until you listen to dubstep," that's weird and pushy and moreover an arbitrary application of ridiculous standards.

There is certainly some level on which intimacy with other humans makes us better people, but pegging a guy doesn't turn him into a feminist ally in any sense - I'm sorry, that's an inane idea. Ask the gay guys I know who've "pegged" plenty of Republican dudes - there is no special spiritual cleansing that occurs when someone sticks a thing in a guy's butt. It just feels really good. That's all it should ever be.

And frankly, for all the women apparently buying books desperately in hopes of turning their boyfriend into an ally and supporter of their rights and their respect - just talk to him and make it clear. If that didn't work, trust me - putting something in his butt is not a silver bullet that will magically make the problem go away.

Pun intended.
posted by koeselitz at 9:16 PM on March 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


"Is it coercive for me to say you should listen to more dubstep? No."

Not coercive but unnecessarily pushy and bossy. My first reaction to that comment is no I shouldn't listen to more dubstep, who are you to tell me what to listen to? I only have to much time and energy for listening to music (or having sex with my husband) and I'm going to spend it on the things *I* want to spend it on.

The problem isn't the dubstep, but the words "you should". If instead someone told me that dubstep is great and a lot of people like it and if I'm interested in hearing more about it they can recommend things for me to listen to then fine. I may or may not take them up on that offer, and that is good advocacy. But being told what I should do or being told that doing things a certain way is the only way to being the kind of person I'm supposed to want to be, fuck that.
posted by shelleycat at 3:38 AM on March 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


This hypothesis is as ridiculous and vacuous as when it first showed up in the 1970s. The path to improvement is through the brain, not the rectum.
posted by Dodecadermaldenticles at 8:04 AM on March 3, 2013


"2. Any man who declares himself to be a "feminist" is looking for accolades and a pat on the back. That doesn't make him a feminist. Real male feminists don't need to declare that they're feminists, they just do it."

That's bullshit. I'm a feminist. A lot of the work I do for LGBT equality I do specifically because I am a feminist. I'm not looking for accolades or a pat on the back, and it's obnoxious to insist that this is the only reason for a man to declare themselves a feminist.
posted by klangklangston at 10:18 AM on March 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I think one thing the world needs is more people, women -and- men who pubically embrace the term feminist.
I certainly consider myself a feminist, although my definition may be a bit broader than many may may feel comfrotable with. Lot of room for varration of thought. The problem here, as many people point out, is that demanding and submitting to spefcic sex acts as a gateway towards true Scotsman (woman?) acceptance is simply bonkers
posted by edgeways at 11:02 AM on March 3, 2013


Well, to get back on thread, (wow, I am actually pulling back to a thread! Me! Whodathunkit?)

As a man who has, frankly, loved assplay since before puberty, I can not mention how uncomfortable it was mentioning my desire to try pegging with my now-ex-wife.

Trip report: Overall, it was fun. Although the strap on was a bit tiny. After we were done, the ex collapsed on the bed, huffing like a train starting up, and mentioned she didn't know how I could put out that level of energy, then stated that was the only time it was ever going to happen.
posted by Samizdata at 5:09 PM on March 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


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