Join 3,497 readers in helping fund MetaFilter (Hide)


We derive our own identities from the act of hating
March 5, 2013 1:51 PM   Subscribe

Patrick Stump, frontman of the recently reunited band Fall Out Boy, has written a long blog post calling on the Internet to abandon its knee-jerk hatred of easy targets and focus on what they love.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants (75 comments total) 11 users marked this as a favorite

 
Well, this is certainly not a new phenomenon for the online age: "The more strongly a singer is preferred by the less cultivated, the more he or she is refused by the most cultivated, whose tastes in this area are almost exclusively expressed in rejections".
posted by robself at 2:05 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I hate Fall Out Boy.
posted by nerdler at 2:05 PM on March 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


And yet we derive our own identities from the act of hating. We connect on the things we are disappointed in.

This dude sounds like a chump with dick friends.
posted by Greg Nog at 2:06 PM on March 5, 2013 [11 favorites]


What if we love to hate Fall Out Boy?
posted by entropicamericana at 2:07 PM on March 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


I feel like at least 35% of the internet has at least embraced "ironic" and/or nostalgic enjoyment of pop culture.
posted by skrozidile at 2:10 PM on March 5, 2013


There's not much that I hate, but there's a lot of things I don't particularly like. I generally ignore those things.
posted by rocket88 at 2:15 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's "pastime", not "pass time." I hate that.

The problem is not that "everyone has a blog." It was trendy to hate disco when I was in elementary school.

The civil rights movement and/or Westboro Baptist Church might also point out that people bonding over hate is not specific to pop culture or the arts.
posted by Foosnark at 2:20 PM on March 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


Last week I took a vacation from the internet. When I came back and had a look with fresh eyes, it seemed as though, *easy*, 50%, but more likely around 75%, of everything I saw, was devoted to creating, channeling, perpetuating, or reacting to, outrage or one of its close cousins. Like, almost everything I was looking at. It kind of blew my mind.
posted by facetious at 2:20 PM on March 5, 2013 [22 favorites]


Patrick Stump's music is bad and he should feel bad.
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:26 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


You've gotta wonder how far this is motivated by Fall Out Boy being one of the frequent targets of this. Perhaps not quite up there with Nickelback, but not far off either.
posted by Dysk at 2:40 PM on March 5, 2013


Stump seems like a nice guy, but he takes a long time to say, basically, "accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative", and furthermore:

1) Greg Nog may have a point above; maybe he should look at his flist more closely. My flist tends much more to promote stuff they like rather than run down stuff that they don't, and of the latter, the preponderance tends to be repudiating haters. Hating on haters isn't exactly a double negative, but it's close, I think.

2) A lot of the "hating" on Inexplicably Popular Band/Performer X stems directly from one's appreciation of Inexplicably Obscure Excellent Band/Performer Y. You've been a fan of someone for years, and they've been performing and writing music for decades, and they seem to be making a decent living but nowhere near what they should as a verifiable living genius*, and then someone comes along who's known mostly for being the sibling of a similarly overrated performer, and can't even fake a song very well**, and they're the one who gets the SNL gig, and, you know, what the fuck? Perspective is as easily lost as it is regained.

Stump, if you're reading this, not a hater here, honest! Just a little constructive criticism.

*I am, of course, speaking of Richard Thompson.
**I am, of course, speaking of Ashlee Simpson.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:44 PM on March 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


Last week I took a vacation from the internet. When I came back and had a look with fresh eyes, it seemed as though, *easy*, 50%, but more likely around 75%, of everything I saw, was devoted to creating, channeling, perpetuating, or reacting to, outrage or one of its close cousins. Like, almost everything I was looking at. It kind of blew my mind.

I know a ton of people that spend their time reading endless blogs and posting/sharing things on Facebook that keep them in a frothing lather, which may be actual problems or may be the latest installment of "Some nerds are unable to tell the difference between things that merit mild disappointment and things that merit histrionic anger." I've basically withdrawn from politics and social justice topics that I once enjoyed because I spent so much time angry, but I also got tired of the ongoing race to be righteously offended in as over-the-top fashion as possible. And I'm so much calmer now, it's amazing.

Personally, I decided at the beginning of the year to be more open and honest about things I like and enjoy and quit trying to fit it into some larger matrix of irony and disaffection. While it's made my life much more enjoyable, what's fascinating to me is the hostility it's engendered, and not just of the usual "STOP LIKING THINGS I DON'T LIKE!" frothing. Some of it is, genuinely, "STOP ENJOYING THINGS AND HAVING A GOOD TIME! STOP HAVING FUN! STOP IT! JUST STOP IT!"
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 2:49 PM on March 5, 2013 [11 favorites]


If this phenomenon is something you're interested in reading something surprising about, check out the 33 & 1/3 book on Celine Dion's Let's Talk About Love, which also draws on Bourdieu.
posted by activitystory at 2:54 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think he might be on to something generally. I've been working for a week on a megapost about terrible CG movies that take the Asylum-like tactic of trading on the names of Pixar and Dreamworks movies.

In the process of finding good videos of the movies, I've had to sift through a legion of wannabe riffers overlaying their feeble jokes upon the footage. Not only are their comments usually less funny than the movie's ineptness itself, and thus in a way ruin a bad thing, but I've noticed that not all of these movies are entirely awful. Tiny Robots, one of Video Brinquedo's strange productions, seems to have a bit of ambition above their average, and I found it actually watchable, but I wouldn't trust any of the mockers who decide a priorithat anything from VB must be abysmal to notice that.

So I'm finding myself having to modulate the tone of my post somewhat, not make it a hatefest as much as a kind of commiseration, and trying to give these films their actual due (if any). Which puts me decidedly against the popular internet perception of these things, which takes great joy in tearing those things down that its "okay" to hate.
posted by JHarris at 2:55 PM on March 5, 2013 [5 favorites]


You've gotta wonder how far this is motivated by Fall Out Boy being one of the frequent targets of this. Perhaps not quite up there with Nickelback, but not far off either.

He discusses this in his blog - how characters on shows he enjoys wouldn't be caught dead wearing his shirts, and artists he'd like to work with think it's uncool to work with him. I suppose that makes me admire Grant Morrison even more for working with Gerard Way from My Chemical Romance.

There is something about the knee-jerk hate. I can't even casually say "I like Fall Out Boy's music" or "I like their general attitude and verbose song titles" without needing to prepare an essay beforehand. There was a period in my life where I was going through some bad shit, and Green Day and My Chemical Romance helped get me through it. And even after that, when they toured together I was too self-conscious to go and see them because of the haters.

The whole hate on 'emo', I think, comes down partly to the fact that the Internet promotes a knee-jerk ironic distance and lack of care. And things that puncture that lack of care were seen, especially when FoB hate was at its height, as anathema to that lack of affect. I was reading an essay about that whole attitude recently.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:57 PM on March 5, 2013 [5 favorites]


I never did care for racking leaves, but I did enjoy jumping into the pile.
posted by breadbox at 2:57 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


In the process of finding good videos of the movies, I've had to sift through a legion of wannabe riffers overlaying their feeble jokes upon the footage. Not only are their comments usually less funny than the movie's ineptness itself, and thus in a way ruin a bad thing, but I've noticed that not all of these movies are entirely awful. Tiny Robots, one of Video Brinquedo's strange productions, seems to have a bit of ambition above their average, and I found it actually watchable, but I wouldn't trust any of the mockers who decide a priorithat anything from VB must be abysmal.

My friends show cult films publicly, and have for several years. They told me they hate Mystery Science Theatre 3000 partly because they mock legitimately good films like Danger: Diabolik.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:58 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also, while there may not be widespread disdain for barbecue sauce, to say that it doesn't apply to food is kinda weird - the signalling-behaviour hatred for types of food absolutely exists, from mocking haute cuisine ("tiny food on big plates! what a load of rubbish!") to its polar opposite ("processed 'meat' slurry rubbish, would rather eat dirt!"), the latter of which having had an extraordinary boost in the wake of the horsemeat scandal here in the UK.

It happens MORE with things like music (and other media/culture), probably mostly due to the fact that we define our identities much more strongly in terms of the media and culture we consume than what food we eat.

Finally, I know full well why I dislike Nickelback (and Fall Out Boy, for that matter) - they've entered popular consciousness in a way where they displace things that I like to a lesser or greater extent. I can no longer claim to be an emo fan without caveats, because bands like Fall Out Boy and My Chemical Romance have come to practically define it, when it has a proud history as something completely different. Nickelback is what my aunts and uncles think of when they hear the words 'hard rock', which is frustrating, because they are substantially different to anything that term has referred to for decades. A similar thing is happening at the moment with 'hardcore' and 'post-hardcore' and it sucks, because there are no longer simple, relatively unambiguous labels I can use to describe a lot of the music I like, and play. And it isn't a simple "oh they're popular now? fuck 'em" reaction or posturing, there are quite a few bands I like that ARE huge, or made it big that I really enjoy, and I enjoy seeing their success. It's the misappropriation of labels that's annoying.

So by all means, like Fall Out Boy, or Nickelback, and you'll take no flack from me. Call yourself an emo fan, or a hard rocker BECAUSE you like Fall Out Boy or Nickelback, though? That annoys me.
posted by Dysk at 3:00 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


"There was a period in my life where I was going through some bad shit, and Green Day and My Chemical Romance helped get me through it. And even after that, when they toured together I was too self-conscious to go and see them because of the haters."

You, and many other people, will be so much happier when you let go of being neurotic about your taste.
posted by klangklangston at 3:01 PM on March 5, 2013 [9 favorites]


I can't even casually say "I like Fall Out Boy's music" or "I like their general attitude and verbose song titles" without needing to prepare an essay beforehand.

But you don't need to do that. You don't need to do that at all.
posted by Greg Nog at 3:01 PM on March 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


There's one part of me that thinks this is silly. The conflicts that are an inherent part of being connected to your local culture don't go away just because you tell yourself to be nice – if anything, they become accentuated, as you remove yourself from the common ground that is shared knowledge (even if you are hating what somebody else loves and vice versa). If I stopped telling all my friends how little I liked their taste in media, then we'd have nothing to connect over, because my friends' taste in media is just super questionable. And I like my friends!

The other part of me is exhausted of all the petty squabbling and snarking over shit that just doesn't matter to anybody. It is wearisome and it is pointless and it ultimately doesn't matter. I'm friends with some people who like Nickelback and plenty more who like Fall Out Boy. They are good people, fun people, interesting people. Some of them even tolerate my attempts to make them listen to Cardiacs and Joanna Newsom. Why should I spend any time at all thinking about whether or not I like or dislike various popular figures? I can say that one of my closest but most exhausting friends is the guy who CAN'T NOT HAVE AN OPINION on things, and who needs to compulsively state his at every junction. And I don't just mean that he states his opinion on things that his other friends mention; I mean he reads pop and music blogs so that he can form opinions on things that other people legitimately don't give a shit about, and then tells us about them. It is a funny quirk but jeez dude.

The ideal solution, for me, would be for everybody in the world to develop a comprehensive media literacy that would let them understand, with nuance, which aspects of things they love and which they hate. The nice thing about these nuances is that you can find theoretical nonexistent media which combines qualities you love, and either find the person making it or else make it yourself. Yay creativity! Yay DIY! But forming that vocabulary takes a lot of effort, and the side effect is that anybody without that vocabulary will from then on decide you a) are a snob, and b) hate everything, because of how much effort you go through to express your specific dislikes of a thing.
posted by Rory Marinich at 3:12 PM on March 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


Your Favorite Band is Very Special To You and I Can Respect That Even if I Don't Share the Same Sentiment.
posted by mazola at 3:15 PM on March 5, 2013 [6 favorites]


Your Favorite Band is Very Special To You and I Can Respect That Even if I Don't Share the Same Sentiment.

Otherwise known as Old 97's Geneva Convention in my single days.
posted by Kitteh at 3:18 PM on March 5, 2013 [5 favorites]


Flist? Ok, time to stab my eyes out! So long!
posted by adamdschneider at 3:26 PM on March 5, 2013 [5 favorites]


I like the xenophillic way I approach unfamiliar food. Whenever I come across some dish that's new to me and superficially disgusting I remind myself that a group of people somewhere liked this enough to remember it. I force myself to eat it until I find out why. I may never come to like it, but I want to appreciate the good in it. It seems morally bad not to try.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:34 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I hate because it's easy. Between being $10,000 in debt, needing to take my car to the panel beaters next Monday (leaving me car-less for an entire week in a town and suburb where you need one), our refrigerator breaking down last night and necessitating an expensive replacement, needing to pay a well overdue phone bill, the $300 quarterly power bill turning up, two solid months of rain leaving the house partially flooded and the ground muddy and the lawn waist-high, and me and my girlfriend and my cat all needing dental work, well, I don't have much room left for loving anything and bonding with people over a shared love because that's fucking time-consuming and feels frivolous when there's all these serious "adult" things I should be worrying about, and hating stuff is still an emotion at least, and it's easy to spit it out in little shit-stinking chunks, and just leaving them everywhere, rather than fucking around in the brain-kitchen for hours in order to assemble a big cake of love, because you know what? No matter how good the cake is you're going to be sick of it after it's halfway eaten.
posted by turgid dahlia 2 at 3:34 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


I've basically withdrawn from politics and social justice topics that I once enjoyed because I spent so much time angry, but I also got tired of the ongoing race to be righteously offended in as over-the-top fashion as possible. And I'm so much calmer now, it's amazing.

I... sort of have. Every once in a while I lapse and either read HuffPo or repsond to some ignorant comment on a friend's blog. I regret it every time.
posted by Foosnark at 3:38 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


flist


WHAT IS A FLIST

A "friend list," or a ... aaaaaaaaauuuugggh



I hate that... non word.
posted by louche mustachio at 3:40 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


All You Need is Hate.

Which I happen to like.
posted by mazola at 3:40 PM on March 5, 2013


i like three dollar bill yall

of all the comments i write out to various posts on this site and never submit out of fear for the potential of being forever associated with the same... fantasizing as to how the above could come back to haunt me was definitely the most amusing/productive
posted by lulz at 3:44 PM on March 5, 2013


WHAT IS A FLIST

$20, same as in town.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:52 PM on March 5, 2013 [9 favorites]


They told me they hate Mystery Science Theatre 3000 partly because they mock legitimately good films like Danger: Diabolik.

I'm not going to go that far, because MST3K works very hard, generally tries to match their tone to the movie, and (those who are part of RiffTrax) has been known to playfully mock even great movies, like Casablanca, and good ones, like the LOTR movies.

But they always picked their movies for riffability more than anything else; there are lots of awful movies they refused to do because the practice for writing for them would be too difficult. According to the Amazing Colossal Episode Guide, Manos was almost one of those, but they eventually decided in its favor.
posted by JHarris at 3:54 PM on March 5, 2013


Yeah, I mean, I like Fall Out Boy quite a bit but anyone that I know who I mention that to does not react favorably. I don't care, but at the same time it's nice to your tastes validated at least one of your close peers.
posted by josher71 at 4:06 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


The kind of behavior Stump is describing is actually very unfortunate when you unpack it. It boils down to, in my opinion, a certain definition of the word "hater". Namely that the level of outcry over something increases dramatically the more popular that thing is.

If someone sees a terrible YouTube video, they simply move on. But if that same YouTube video becomes immensely popular, they feel compelled to rage against it because "how could so many people love this terrible thing?"

There are probably a thousand and one bands who sound comparable to Nickelback or Fall Out Boy respectively, but they simply get passed over. But far be it for a large group of fans to latch on to the same band that other people don't care for. All of a sudden the level of hate rises to a fever-pitch and seeks allies to tear down that which dares to exist in the first place. Is this thing that they hate really worth all the ire? No, it may be only as bad as those other things that were passed over. But the anger is instead in response to other people's enjoyment of that thing. So then actually, the compulsion toward negativity is aimed at opposing someone else's happiness or enjoyment. That's pretty tragic.

I mean if Nickelback wasn't so popular, would anyone really put this much effort into tearing them down on the regular?

What's worse is when the large amounts of hate either prevent artists from doing what they would love to do (I think Patrick Stump's solo career was profoundly impacted by the amounts of negativity he received) or otherwise prevent possible fans from becoming fans because the hate acts as a barrier to entry.

I try to actively test for haterade when I find myself railing against a website or a band or a TV show. Am I reacting this strongly simply because this thing is popular? Yes, in one case, a large part of the reason I hate facebook so much is because "everyone" loves it to death and can't live their lives without it. I should temper that within myself. But in another case, no, I actually strongly dislike the Black Eyed Peas not because they're popular but because of what they used to be compared to what they are.

In the end, the negativity is juvenile most specifically because one's enjoyment of a thing need not impair another's enjoyment of something else. Though I understand Dysk's complaint that "It's the misappropriation of labels that's annoying."
posted by ChipT at 4:18 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


Primus sucks.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:44 PM on March 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


" All of a sudden the level of hate rises to a fever-pitch and seeks allies to tear down that which dares to exist in the first place. Is this thing that they hate really worth all the ire? No, it may be only as bad as those other things that were passed over. But the anger is instead in response to other people's enjoyment of that thing. So then actually, the compulsion toward negativity is aimed at opposing someone else's happiness or enjoyment. That's pretty tragic."

I think part of it is also — and this was much more true in the past — when something gets popular, it's hard to get away from it. Which means that it's not just that Nickleback's naff bullshit, but that you keep hearing it and can't escape. That's what builds up the frustration necessary to really hate a band, at least for me. Otherwise, they're just kind of boring and forgettable.
posted by klangklangston at 4:55 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


They told me they hate Mystery Science Theatre 3000 partly because they mock legitimately good films like Danger: Diabolik.
fucking thank you

also, "Let's Plays" are literally the opposite of art
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 5:03 PM on March 5, 2013


I'll go to the mats for Fall Out Boy's last album Folie à Deux. Tracks 1, 5, 6, 7 and 13 are the ones that get to me the most. Pharrell has a production credit on one track - not even the best one on the album! - and Lil Wayne guests on another, if you need a reason to listen. These days I think that kind of crossover - between "emo guitar band" and "mainstream hip hop" and "dance-pop made on a computer" - is more normal, but at the time I think people were surprised that Fall Out Boy was into so much "black music".

In fact, people are still surprised that Fall Out Boy is into so much "black music" and routinely accuse them of abandoning their roots in Chicago's hardcore scene, etc etc, all these years later, which I sometimes think has to do with the racial segregation of Chicago and sometimes think has to do with the age of their audience and sometimes think has to do with their attitude of not wanting to let down their fans and trying to please everyone (thus pleasing no one), and sometimes am just baffled by.

I changed my opinion on Fall Out Boy, incidentally, after Patrick Stump came on Daryll Hall's music show and completely rocked a Motown cover. Maybe I shouldn't have needed that legitimization - look, here's this guy with some weird/annoying vocal ticks displaying deep knowledge of the origin of those ticks! And having Serious Discussions about music with Serious Musicians! - but we all have preconceptions getting in the way of forming actual perceptions.
posted by subdee at 5:08 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


also, "Let's Plays" are literally the opposite of art

this is literally the opposite of true

if anything, "Let's Plays" are one of the most interesting new kinds of Internet-enabled medium
posted by Rory Marinich at 5:10 PM on March 5, 2013


I have always believed that human beings will never be able to look beyond big and small differences until we are openly attacked by aliens. Then we will have a common enemy to hate! But this article makes me think we will also have to pick some culturally appointed human scapegoat to blame and represent some less then lovely aspects of humanity as well. Darn, world harmony theory debunked.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 5:13 PM on March 5, 2013


Getting into Fall Out Boy and My Chemical Romance and assorted popularly disdained acts about five years ago was the best thing that happened to me in terms of shaking off giving a shit about what people think about stuff I like. If something makes me happy and it's not hurting anyone and for some reason you still have a problem with that and it makes you mad? Well, you have fun with that, buddy.

Patrick Stump is a delightful (and talented! check out his solo work, in addition to latter-day Fall Out Boy) young gentleman and I greatly enjoyed and agree with his post.
posted by whitneyarner at 5:17 PM on March 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


Besides that I also think that Fall Out Boy have been hugely culturally influential, though it's hard to bring this up without people assuming you have bought into Pete Wentz' self-hype. That's another reason for the Fall Out Boy hate, by the way - people's desire to distance themselves from other people who "fall for" this kind of egotism.

I don't say this, by the way, in order to divide the band into "the worthy ones" (Stump & guitarist Trohman & drummer Hurley, all of whom would probably like to be considered "serious musicians") and "the unworthy one" (Wentz), because probably one of the most culturally influential things they ever did was to contribute to the trend of famous people using their fame as a platform for willingly self-identifying with a DSM-IV disorder (Bipolar II). Besides which, he was their spokesman and promoter and most self-aware person (thanks to all those hours of therapy perhaps), gave them something to write about and their fans someone to rally around, etc etc, and anyway there's no point trying to separate "the music" from "the message" even when they are literally written by different people.

Maybe if Pete Wentz hadn't been prominent person suddenly given the platform to do this, it would have been someone else. Maybe our culture was simply trending in a direction of increased self-exposure and increased use of therapeutic language. For sure, if Fall Out Boy hadn't won the decline-of-the-music-industry-as-measured-by-physical-CD-sales lottery, it would have been another group with a small (relative to the whole record-listening population) audience that was passionate - and affluent - enough to actually buy CDs. Regardless of whether someone else would have done it, or been as successful at it, the fact does remain that Fall Out Boy did all that stuff.
posted by subdee at 5:31 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


The Believer just celebrated its 10th anniversary; it launched with an essay very much in the same spirit, "Rejoice! Believe! Be Strong and Read Hard!" by Heidi Julavits. It was much read, much argued about, much liked and much disliked.

"The real question then becomes: If you don’t believe in this, what do you believe in? What do you care about? What is the purpose of this destructive clear-cutting, if you don’t have anything to suggest in its place, save your own career advancement? Reading many reviews these days (ones that aren’t regurgitated press copy, ones that are purportedly “critical”), I have the feeling of dust settling on a razed landscape, in which nothing is growing, in which nothing can grow. And this is what makes me depressed, and then angry, and then invigorated by the possibilities that every wasteland suggests."
posted by escabeche at 5:33 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


While I am on the subject of the sources of Fall Out Boy hate, they are all pretty short dudes with something pretty major to prove. And Pete Wentz is deemed to understand the motivations of teenage girls a little bit too well.

I could go on about this, there's plenty to talk about with this group, but you do have to like at least some of their music first before any of it makes a difference.

Anyway the short answer is: if you're gonna hate, at least know what it is that you're hating.
posted by subdee at 5:36 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I have no idea if I like Fall Out Boy or not. The use of "Fall Out" instead of "Fallout" in their name makes me so angry that I can't bring myself to listen to them.
posted by key lime guy at 5:36 PM on March 5, 2013


Sorry bro, your band still sucks.
posted by Renoroc at 5:45 PM on March 5, 2013


Fall Out Boy are a perfectly good band. My Chemical Romance are legitimately *fantastic*, and Gerard Way is also a very talented comics writer.
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:52 PM on March 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


I really like Fall Out Boy and mainly because I think Patrick Stump's voice is awesome, and I'm glad I'm an old lady who doesn't need to give any fucks about what other people care about in terms of what I like or don't like, and I feel sad for people who are young enough to have to worry about that shit.

I have been making a strong effort in my life in all possible areas to try to not auto-hate things and I find it deliciously ironic and awesome that a guy from Fallout Boy of all bands is also trying to push this agenda.

See also the entire recent Amanda Palmer thread.
posted by padraigin at 6:01 PM on March 5, 2013 [6 favorites]


if anything, "Let's Plays" are one of the most interesting new kinds of Internet-enabled medium
in 200 years people are going to think some dudes howling at each other is just what Assault Suits Valken was

the future of which you are the architect is an evil one
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 6:04 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Charlemagne In Sweatpants: "My friends show cult films publicly, and have for several years. They told me they hate Mystery Science Theatre 3000 partly because they mock legitimately good films like Danger: Diabolik."

That doesn't seem entirely fair, given that in MST's original context it was pretty much the only place doing its sort of riffing. You couldn't just log onto the net and get infinite monkeys attempting to crack wise on some media topic like you could today. The actors had to watch the films half a dozen times to come up with their jokes and their timing, and if you had to do that in a limited timeframe with even a good movie you'd end up coming up with a lot of jokes about its faults and foibles.

And while I haven't seen the DD one, perhaps it stands out as a mistake in their repertoire, but -- without exception -- every other MST film I've ever had the misfortune of seeing sans-Joel/Mike and the robots has been absolutely terrible. So it's probably not worth getting upset about a few non-mock-worthy films in a larger corpus of horsecrap.
posted by barnacles at 6:20 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oddly enough, Fall Out Boy is *the* guilty pleasure of mine whose name I don't dare mention in public.

If people ask, I have always had the habit of saying ABBA or something equally enjoyable on a purely abstract level ("Hey, even if you aren't into it, they knew how to write a pop song and are loveably cheesy, y'know?").

I honestly might actually start to admitting to liking this guy's band, I think they are a load of fun and will be looked upon favourably in retrospect even if they don't get much respect now. Besides, that Patrick kid has some pipes, and can absolutely rock a Prince cover.
posted by gohabsgo at 7:21 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think they are a load of fun and will be looked upon favourably in retrospect even if they don't get much respect now

It's really true. I think it's telling that their new single sounds both like something that follows directly from their last record, and like other music that's extremely popular right now. Besides which, it's always the bands with a small army of fourteen year-old fans who start their own bands who win out in the end.
posted by subdee at 7:57 PM on March 5, 2013


I find Charlemagne in Sweatpants having posted this link deliciously ironic, because (and this may just be because I noticed once and now I can't stop noticing) a statistically significant number of his comments here on Metafilter include the phrases 'I don't like...' or 'I dislike...' or 'I hate...'

Hate-iness begins at home, folks. I speak as a recovering hateaholic.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:08 PM on March 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


Alas, despite what I said above, I am still fundamentally addicted to hateahol.
posted by JHarris at 8:28 PM on March 5, 2013


Fret not, JHarris. The first step is admitting you have a problem.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:29 PM on March 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'd like to think I got over my high school bullshit, and I think I'm pretty good at recognizing and avoiding kneejerk mob mentality hatred of things... but I will never be able to stop hating on Chicago-area bands that fouled up too many shows at the Fireside Bowl and were still dipping into my limited highschool-aged dating pool of punk rock girls when they were clearly too old.

So I don't even hate all of Fall Out Boy's songs but man do I hate Fall Out Boy. Maybe they'll win me over yet.
posted by elr at 9:10 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


No one else found it interesting (or shocking) that he considers critics to be "artists"?

WTF, man?!
posted by mrgrimm at 10:51 PM on March 5, 2013


No one else found it interesting (or shocking) that he considers critics to be "artists"?

WTF, man?!


He was talking about Lester Bangs, who is an artist, as are people like Greil Marcus and Pauline Kael.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 10:55 PM on March 5, 2013


An artist creates art. A critic can certainly be an artist (see Roger Ebert), but great criticism is not art. Trust me, I am a critic.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:32 PM on March 5, 2013


Sometimes, at night, when there's no one around, I re-add "This Ain't a Scene..." to my iTunes library, listen to it 20 times, and then carefully remove it again, no one the wiser.
posted by dean winchester at 11:50 PM on March 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


Hmm, looks like quite a few people have Fall Out Boy as their guilty pleasure, the one they only admit to liking with some hesitation. Can I get a quick check from you folk? I've had several like-it-but-not-proud-of-it artists at various points in my life, ranging over The Carpenters, ABBA, most of disco, and techno music from K-Mart ads. My current artist in that category is Billy Joel. Does this make me

- ahead of the curve?
- behind the times?
- retro?
- boringly mainstream?
- unhip?
- so unhip it's hip?
- squaresville, daddy-o?
- depends on my level of irony?
- a connoisseur of the vernacular?
- who's Billy Joel?

TIA.
posted by benito.strauss at 12:27 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I love boybands. Feel neither "guilt" about it nor hesitation to say it. People who judge me on that ground are free to say so as they wish - I'd be all too happy to avoid them.
posted by fatehunter at 1:07 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


but great criticism is not art.

are you sure?
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 1:12 AM on March 6, 2013


I used to be totally concerned how others would judge me for the type of music that I listen. I cared so much that I went through great lengths to have certain artists from appearing on my last.fm.

Now that i'm older, I don't care anymore. I'll listen to fall out boy, or any other band when I want.

BTW, Patrick Stump's solo album was FANTASTIC!
posted by justinleon at 1:57 AM on March 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


The only appropriate response to someone liking a band you don't is: "Oh, you like [meh band]? Here, try [underrated awesome band]!"
posted by Lush at 2:06 AM on March 6, 2013


No one else found it interesting (or shocking) that he considers critics to be "artists"?

WTF, man?!

It's an old notion. See Oscar Wilde's THE CRITIC AS ARTIST: WITH SOME REMARKS UPON THE IMPORTANCE OF DOING NOTHING; it is pretty interesting at times (sorry for the copy-pasted caps).
posted by ersatz at 4:33 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sugar We're Going Down by Fall Out Boy is one of those cursed songs that I hated and mocked relentlessly, but is now wrapped up in all sorts of college memories. Pretty sure I just love it genuinely at this point and appreciate its songcraft, sincerity and anthemic power. Nostalgia always gets the last laugh.
posted by naju at 6:18 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


A similar thing is happening at the moment with 'hardcore' and 'post-hardcore' and it sucks, because there are no longer simple, relatively unambiguous labels I can use to describe a lot of the music I like, and play. And it isn't a simple "oh they're popular now? fuck 'em" reaction or posturing, there are quite a few bands I like that ARE huge, or made it big that I really enjoy, and I enjoy seeing their success. It's the misappropriation of labels that's annoying.

The thing is though, you don't get to define those labels any more than anyone else gets to define those labels. It doesn't work like that - language doesn't work like that, and music doesn't work like that. Even back in the day when you were listening to what you'd call 'hardcore,' not everyone who listened to it agreed on what fit into that category. There has always been disagreement about what counts for any given genre. So no, you don't get to say that Fall Out Boy fans don't count as true emo fans. You don't own that label - you have no authority to tell people what they can and cannot call themselves.

(And I can't help but think that the root of that impulse is the same as the root of the 'fake geek girl' thing - suddenly there are all these - gasp - teenage girls who are claiming to be a fan like you, but of course they couldn't possibly be. Is it a coincidence that the majority of fans of Fall Out Boy are young and female? I don't think so.)
posted by marginaliana at 6:48 AM on March 6, 2013


Fall Out Boy's first album, Take This to Your Grave, is really good. It is also one of the most unoriginal and derivative collection of songs that I have ever heard. Its good mostly because of Patrick Stump's voice.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:23 AM on March 6, 2013


marginalia, I absolutely understand that I don't own those labels, I just really really lack a shorthand for communicating my tastes, now. What am I supposed to call bands like Fugazi and Drive Like Jehu, if I can't call them emo and post-hardcore (and be actually understood)?

suddenly there are all these - gasp - teenage girls who are claiming to be a fan like you, but of course they couldn't possibly be.

I dunno, as a woman in my twenties, teenage girls can be quite a lot like me. It's only just getting to the point now where I can no longer say that a number of my close friends are teenage girls.
posted by Dysk at 9:49 AM on March 6, 2013


(And the new hardcore/post-hardcore is more young men than it's young women, anyway!)
posted by Dysk at 9:51 AM on March 6, 2013


Many, many, many people online with a basic level of engagement with pop culture have adopted this exact same outlook over the past few years, yet all of them still seem to think everyone else remains a hater.

I quite like Fall Out Boy.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:39 AM on March 6, 2013


I find Charlemagne in Sweatpants having posted this link deliciously ironic, because (and this may just be because I noticed once and now I can't stop noticing) a statistically significant number of his comments here on Metafilter include the phrases 'I don't like...' or 'I dislike...' or 'I hate...'

Guarantee you he wouldn't have posted this essay if Skrillex had written it.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:05 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


What am I supposed to call bands like Fugazi and Drive Like Jehu, if I can't call them emo and post-hardcore (and be actually understood)?

I see your point, but I think the answer can be different dpending on what your purpose is. Are you saying "I like [genre]" for the purposes of getting a recommendation from someone in a CD shop? In that case, it's probably helpful to to spell out what exactly it is you like about the bands you do like - the lyrics, the beat, the instrument. Or are you saying "I like [genre]" for the purposes of discussing the history of the genre? In that case, you're probably going to be defining it more specifically anyway as you go along.

I feel like the reason people want to be able to say 'I like [genre]' without clarifying, and have it mean what they have decided it means, is mostly for self-identification purposes. People want to identify themselves as "an emo fan" and have control over that identity. Which is understandable - that kind of battle has been fought over everything ever that people have strong feelings about. But I don't think anyone has a right to say, "No, we control this identity and you don't. You're doing it wrong. You're not one of us." I mean, of course you can say that Fall Out Boy fans don't speak for emo. But you don't speak for emo, either.

Maybe I'm missing something, though - can you tell me a little bit more about why you want to be able to use that label? What's the need that it's filling for you?
posted by marginaliana at 11:20 AM on March 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Maybe I'm missing something, though - can you tell me a little bit more about why you want to be able to use that label? What's the need that it's filling for you?

Mostly speaking to other musicians, and other music fans. My tastes are really very wide-ranging, so it's useful to have shorthands to describe swathes of it, or discuss influences, or a way to refer to tropes or characteristics of certain bands, where referencing individual bands becomes more specific than I'd want. It's an annoyance, nothing more.

I mean, of course you can say that Fall Out Boy fans don't speak for emo. But you don't speak for emo, either.

No individual does, absolutely - it's a matter of consensus. I'm just a little frustrated the consensus or majority perception/opinion has moved, is all.

Overall, I'm not going to stop anyone listening to what they like, or calling themselves what they like. I'm not even going to try! Hell, when it boils down to it, the bands in question aren't to blame - they have little more control over how they're labelled than I do. I'm not defending what Stump's arguing against, just commenting on the context that creates it.
posted by Dysk at 11:41 AM on March 6, 2013


« Older The Sporting Statues Project maintains a list of s...  |  "The short of it is, Bradley b... Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments