No one's ever on your side, Betty.
May 6, 2013 10:15 AM   Subscribe

In Defense of Betty. "I’ve always thought that the whole point is that Betty is a victim of her time and circumstances, of the very narrow, constricted gender roles (remember the ill-fitting dress she’s holding up against herself as she contemplates being a political wife) that she and women like her were forced — expected, if that seems less loaded — to assume. Those roles were deforming, and, sure enough, they’ve deformed Betty."

"But that’s how it works, and that’s how you make a show about sexism: You show the deformities. Because otherwise, you’re selling it short; you’re not acknowledging the worst consequences of that era’s brand of sexism."

Pam Harris, Georgetown Law Professor, and Wall Street Journal Mad Men Blogger, on the Betty Draper Francis backlash (WSJ single link)
posted by sweetkid (2419 comments total) 52 users marked this as a favorite
 
Is this going to be this month's Mad Men thread?

Also, yes, Betty is all about frustrated purpose and how being squeezed in one direction causes weird blobs of emotion to pop out in other places.
One of the underlying themes of a couple of long-form cable shows (Mad Men, Boardwalk Empire) as I see it has been how abuse is perpetuated down generational lines.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:17 AM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Thought this was going to be about Archie. Too bad.
posted by The Bellman at 10:19 AM on May 6, 2013 [24 favorites]


I thought this was going to be about Betty Rubble.
posted by Harpocrates at 10:21 AM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


I thought it was going to be about Ugly Betty.

Context counts!
posted by ardgedee at 10:22 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I've toyed with the idea that Betty is simply the character no one knows what to do with, yet can't be written out.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:22 AM on May 6, 2013 [13 favorites]


I was thinking Ford.
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:27 AM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


This is great. I'm glad Harris called out the Slate TV Club folks for not noticing that when Betty holds up the "cute dress" it's for her old body and would not fit her now.
posted by purpleclover at 10:27 AM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


I thought it was going to be about Her Majesty.
posted by ocschwar at 10:27 AM on May 6, 2013


Is this going to be this month's Mad Men thread?

Oh good, then I can mention my new favorite Twitter account, '80s Don Draper.

"We'll call them Members Only, but sell them to everyone."
posted by bondcliff at 10:28 AM on May 6, 2013 [32 favorites]


What Do Horses Mean To Mad Men's Betty Draper?
The horses are on your side!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:29 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Betty Boop, here.
posted by Melismata at 10:29 AM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Betty became the way they could make Don Draper into a character that people wanted to watch after seasons one and two. They took many of his reprehensible characteristics and the general feeling of being trapped on all sides that the first season really conveyed, and made Betty into the cause. Don is able to remain the hero and the show is able to remain watchable and not dismally depressing only because Betty's role on the show changed. She's the scapegoat.
posted by outlandishmarxist at 10:32 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


Why are people defending this woman who "playfully" proposed a weirdo rape fantasy for her husband (in reference to the babysitter)? The woman whose response to her ex-husband on the day after Martin Luther King got killed is "You forgot again?" in that oh-so snide tone? The woman who warmed a little too closely up to a ten-year-old boy? The woman who acts as if her daughter is the competition? The fuck?

Betty is broken. And she's bound and determined to break everyone else in order to feel better about herself. WHICH SHE NEVER WILL.
posted by grubi at 10:32 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I've always been fascinated by Betty. She is wildly unhappy, and bewildered by that unhappiness. From Betty's perspective, she did everything right: she kept herself pretty, married well, maintained a nice house - all the things that society told her to do, she did them. And where did it leave her? Miserable, unfulfilled, and lonely.

As a character, Betty is all about the toxic down side of the patriarchal bargain. And her unhappiness illustrates why feminism came into being, and why it's still important today.
posted by ErikaB at 10:34 AM on May 6, 2013 [62 favorites]


Nobody thought it was going to be about Betty Friedan?

I keed, I keed...
posted by Sara C. at 10:34 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think, whatever "Betty Draper" was originally supposed to represent/convey within the world of Mad Men was stunted, shifted, and re-cobbled together in light of a certain actresses limitations.
posted by MoxieProxy at 10:35 AM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


Why are people defending this woman who "playfully" proposed a weirdo rape fantasy for her husband (in reference to the babysitter)? The woman whose response to her ex-husband on the day after Martin Luther King got killed is "You forgot again?" in that oh-so snide tone? The woman who warmed a little too closely up to a ten-year-old boy? The woman who acts as if her daughter is the competition? The fuck?

Uhm because she clearly hates herself and lashes out in every direction so that it doesn't stick to her?
posted by shakespeherian at 10:36 AM on May 6, 2013 [9 favorites]


I made this point about betty a while back, comparing her to Pete in that they have legit greivences most of the time but have awful ways of expressing it cause they don't know any better.

*goes back to holding two cups of coffee just outside the corner of your eye*
posted by The Whelk at 10:37 AM on May 6, 2013 [32 favorites]


Betty is simply the character no one knows what to do with, yet can't be written out.

I disagree, since any show can write any character out.

Lots of shows have "put characters on the bus".

Frankly, I thought that scene of her, Henry, and baby Gene on the plane was Betty's "getting on the bus" moment, and am surprised that the show has kept Don's (original) family in the picture as much as it has.

I'm pretty sure the reason we keep going back to Betty is a feminist one, for sure. Because they've had ample opportunity to put Betty on the bus (remember her cancer scare last year?), and they haven't done it.
posted by Sara C. at 10:38 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


The thing about Pete is that (outside of his own terrible personal life) he's just about always right but says so in exactly the worst way.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:39 AM on May 6, 2013 [13 favorites]


grubi - because discussing a character isn't the same thing as liking her or thinking her actions are good?
posted by Sara C. at 10:39 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, the major force of unhappiness on this show is Getting What You Want.

Also, admitting you have human feelings.
posted by The Whelk at 10:39 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, every time I sympathize with Pete, he does the stupidest, most self-destructive thing possible.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:41 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


the major force of unhappiness on this show is Getting What You Want

It was in the first season. I contend that they did away with that overtly critical eye on consumerism (because they have to appeal to advertisers, after all).
posted by outlandishmarxist at 10:41 AM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


This is a wonderful article. I, too, find Betty very sympathetic, though I didn't the first time I viewed the series. I've thought a lot, actually, about the various reactions to the female characters on the show: largely hostile, except for toward Peggy.

It's the Smurfette principle at play via media analysis: there can only be one girl, who is defined by her difference from other girls, who often plays with the boys in the manner that boys do. All other women are whores (Joan) or Mary Sues (Megan) or bitches (Betty) or sluts (Sylvia) and need to get off my television, damn it.

I actually find each of these characters stunningly well-realized as people--Peggy is also thorny and flawed; she's not even a Smurfette by traditional standards (she wants a relationship and the traditional trappings of marriage, we're learning increasingly as the season rolls on--she just doesn't really know how to get what she wants).

Of course, all of Weiner's characters are flawed, and the men don't escape viewer judgment. But even as Pete is acknowledged as a rapist, as Don is called a tired womanizer, as Harry grows more conniving, the words used to describe them don't cut quite so deep. Maybe it's because the language we use about women is more weaponized. It causes greater harm, both in the series (public acknowledgement of Joan's choice to prostitute herself could very well destroy her, if wielded correctly) and in real life.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:41 AM on May 6, 2013 [34 favorites]


It's a chip n dip!
posted by shakespeherian at 10:41 AM on May 6, 2013 [10 favorites]


I do think it's a pity Betty isn't featured more. Of course, the show is primarily a Don Draper story. But I find her to be quite interesting, much more tragic and stunted than Don. So hobbled, she doesn't even have the capability to dream, being wrapped up in roles in which she is poorly suited. Her current isolation as sequestered housewife is relief, and we see the prospect of being thrown into the public eye fills her with dread.

I find Megan more baffling in context of the show. I get the feeling she's there to get kicked in the teeth hard, sooner or later.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:42 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


whores (Joan)

FITE
posted by shakespeherian at 10:42 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


A few weeks ago it hit me that Betty Draper is nearly exactly the same age as my own mother. And that helped me see her in a different light; they were both raised to be a certain way in the 1950's, and the late '60s and '70s brought about an enormous amount of change on both a macro and micro level. Because the box they were meant to fill in the late '50s, when they married, was pretty damn confining.
posted by ambrosia at 10:42 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


Frankly, I thought that scene of her, Henry, and baby Gene on the plane was Betty's "getting on the bus" moment

Really? I didn't think that at all. I think the show would have been really jarring if we had kids but no Betty and like a phantom offscreen Betty dropping them off. It's interesting to see Betty adapt to life with Henry, life in this new house, her daughter growing up (and becoming competition), Betty seeing herself in contrast with "hipper" women like Megan, etc.

I don't think they have done enough of the right things with her but I think it's a limitation of plot and writing, not January's acting skills. Another recent article I've read about January showed how much she understands Betty - I think she has an interesting take on the character and brings a lot to the way she plays her.
posted by sweetkid at 10:42 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


@outlandishmarxist: really good point. I also think that Jaunary Jones's execrable acting helped force their hands in that regard. Hard to deepen or humanize a character when the actor can barely project humanity on screen. Making her into a cold robotic villain made the best dramatic use of her limited range even if the result made the show shallower in the way you're describing.
posted by AtDuskGreg at 10:43 AM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Betty has her reprehensible moments, but if she is "broken," it is because of her abusive ex-husband, her relationship with her parents, her self-esteem, society, and any number of other bits and pieces that have torn of the veneer of self-possessed perfect housewife away and left an angry, scared, patronized woman behind.

I think that hostility the author mentions is mirrored in the (to me) inexplicable hostility for Megan. And the hostility Breaking Bad audiences have for Skyler. An in some respects, the way Britta's character has been written in recent Community seasons. There's something to say about the way television audiences and writers piegonhole female characters, I think, but I'm not an erudite enough TV viewer to say it.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:43 AM on May 6, 2013 [22 favorites]


This is a good article. I'm glad she noted that brief flash of horror on Betty's face after considering the possibility of being a semi-public figure; it's stuck with me for a week. I've always been interested in Betty -- remember, she was an anthropology major before becoming a model, and I think that dichotomy of being both the watcher and the watched is fascinating. This season we've seen her (as a defense mechanism re: the so-called loss of her looks?) attempting to return to the former (see: her trip into the city in search of Sandy) but now, once again, she is being pushed into the latter.
posted by jeudi at 10:44 AM on May 6, 2013


Why are people defending this woman who "playfully" proposed a weirdo rape fantasy for her husband (in reference to the babysitter)?

Because Betty is a woman experiencing a sexual awakening for the first time and within the bounds of a healthy marriage discussion of rape fantasies are pretty normal, even if the language she used was awkward and even cringe-worthy.

The woman whose response to her ex-husband on the day after Martin Luther King got killed is "You forgot again?" in that oh-so snide tone?

Because he forgot because he was busy pining after his girlfriend, not because MLK was shot.

The woman who warmed a little too closely up to a ten-year-old boy?

Because Betty was, at that point, essentially a lonely child whose growth and ability to form grown-up relationships and friendships was stifled by her abusive husband.

The woman who acts as if her daughter is the competition? The fuck?

Because Betty was raised to derive all of her identity from the male gaze and she's so desperately insecure that yes, she would cruelly lash out at her daughter. Because she has nothing else. She's a tragic figure, not a villain.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:44 AM on May 6, 2013 [62 favorites]


she wants a relationship and the traditional trappings of marriage, we're learning increasingly as the season rolls on

I'm so worried that Peggy is going to have an affair with Ted, think this means they are Meant For Each Other, dump Abe, and then Ted will be all, "Uhhhh, that was just blowing off steam after a long week. It didn't, like, mean anything. You know?" And Peggy will be left holding the dead pet rabbit bag.
posted by Sara C. at 10:44 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


Hard to deepen or humanize a character when the actor can barely project humanity on screen.

This is how I feel. I find myself quickly bored with any scenes that she's in.

Block o' wood.
posted by Fleebnork at 10:45 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think the show would have been really jarring if we had kids but no Betty and like a phantom offscreen Betty dropping them off.

FWIW I didn't wish that would happen, and now that we're in Season 6 I see that this is not what happened, and why the writers made that choice. But at the time, my assumption was that we would see a lot less of Betty and the kids.
posted by Sara C. at 10:46 AM on May 6, 2013


Betty is like the Worf of Mad Men.
posted by XMLicious at 10:46 AM on May 6, 2013 [11 favorites]


SOMEBODY MAKE THAT TUMBLR NOW
posted by The Whelk at 10:47 AM on May 6, 2013 [10 favorites]


(also, creepiest thing so far? Bob "I always bring two prostitutes so I can give one away!" Benson.
posted by The Whelk at 10:48 AM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


My wife and I already watch Mad Men. I would all but physically force her to watch it with Worf in the Betty role, that's how committed I am to this idea.
posted by middleclasstool at 10:49 AM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


inexplicable hostility for Megan

Too much screen time for too little characterization when there were other far more interesting things happening with other characters.
posted by Sara C. at 10:49 AM on May 6, 2013 [6 favorites]


Well, we are seeing a lot less of Betty now. I was recently rewatching Season 1 and there is so much more Betty. We also get so much more of her inner life, which I feel like they really veered off course from once she separated from Don.
posted by sweetkid at 10:50 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


THERE'S a Tumblr for you - Bob Benson popping up places. Kennedy assassination, Wannsee conference....
posted by Chrysostom at 10:50 AM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I've always found the majority of the Internet response to Betty more than a bit baffling. I often wonder if my TV is tuned into Bizarro Time Warner Cable or something.

'80s Don Draper ‏@80sDonDraper 3 May

Joan, J.R.'s been shot. You should go home.


Total coffeenose moment there.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:50 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


inexplicable hostility for Megan

Too much screen time for too little characterization when there were other far more interesting things happening with other characters


Agree, and also most of her storylines are about how she's so great at everything. She's the Joey Potter of Mad Men.
posted by sweetkid at 10:50 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


They took many of his reprehensible characteristics and the general feeling of being trapped on all sides that the first season really conveyed, and made Betty into the cause.

That's certainly how some viewers see her. But the show makes it clear that Betty is at least as trapped as Don. More so, really: she's confined to a very narrow range of socially acceptable roles.

Her entire life, starting in childhood, Betty's mother emphasized the importance of beauty and especially of weight control (Grandpa Gene tells Sally about Grandma dropping off chubby little Betty "in the city" and forcing her to walk home, which he found objectionably enough that he "put a stop to it") without showing the effort it takes. ("My mother always said, 'You’re painting a masterpiece, make sure to hide the brush strokes.'")

Yet, when youthful Betty tried to achieve some independence and success on the strength of that asset her mother prized so highly, Mama Hofstadt called her a whore for it. So her upbringing simultaneously indoctrinates her to think her beauty is her only important attribute and that she mustn't use it directly for financial gain, but only indirectly: by attracting a man who can take care of her, and by being the arm candy he needs to impress his colleagues.
posted by Elsa at 10:51 AM on May 6, 2013 [24 favorites]


SOMEBODY MAKE THAT TUMBLR NOW

Sorry, I already decided to have making a Lwaxana Troi twitter account be the creative focus of my day.

It's going to use #yolo a lot.
posted by Sara C. at 10:51 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]



Betty Boop, here.
posted by Melismata at 10:29 AM on May 6


Same here.

Betty Boop would really make sense here, given the line "Those roles were deforming, and, sure enough, they’ve deformed Betty." Go Google up a picture of the shape of Betty Boop's head. Definitely deformed.
posted by Sleeper at 10:52 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Betty Worf
posted by The Whelk at 10:52 AM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


But the show makes it clear that Betty is at least as trapped as Don. More so, really: she's confined to a very narrow range of socially acceptable roles.

It's almost like...

the opposite of Don Draper and his ability to run away and change his identity at will.
posted by Sara C. at 10:53 AM on May 6, 2013 [16 favorites]


Two recent articles about Betty Draper that sum up why I think she's the most important character on the show:

Without Betty, Mad Men would lose touch with the domestic sphere entirely, and this is the sphere where feminism had made the smallest gains. Viewers are startled by how vastly the workplace of Mad Men differs from the workplace of today, yet Betty’s world is eerily familiar, as the bulk of household work and childcare continues to fall at the feet of women. Women have entered the workforce en masse, yes, but the realm of the home remains thoroughly feminized, and Betty shows us the cost of that feminization, to both women and men.

However unlikeable she’s become, Betty’s character underscores the importance of feminism, then and now, by showing us its absence, and in doing so, she holds the nostalgia of Mad Men in check. She reveals, through her cold cruelty and sporadic bursts of rage, the steep price of the patriarchal dividend that we are all, men and women, continuing to pay. So, do I sympathize with Betty Draper? I do, yes: because there, but for the grace of feminism, go I.


* * *

There are certainly affluent married women in that era who could find great satisfaction through their children and husbands, but it’s abundantly evident that Betty doesn’t like children very much. She seems to get along with Sally better now that her daughter is older, but she simply does not relate to young children. Yes, Betty does dress like Donna Reed and yet, no, the two are not the same. There is no indication that Betty ever wanted children. The one pregnancy we’ve seen, she tentatively asks the doctor for an abortion, and then, sadly, concedes after the doctor accuses her of being concerned about losing her figure. I don’t think Betty ever willfully decided, “I’m going to be an awful mother.” I think she had children because everyone told her it was what she should do. And then she discovered she lacked the nurturing gene.

Her children do not make her glow with pride.

And yet, for all the coldness and distance, we do see moments when Betty is happy.

At one point, she wistfully tells Henry, “We all have skills we don’t use. I was an anthropology major at Bryn Mawr. Can you believe that?”

It’s the skills she rarely uses that seem to produce her few moments of joy.

posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:53 AM on May 6, 2013 [37 favorites]


Also, Bob
posted by The Whelk at 10:53 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


Not Betty Broderick? /leaves thread
posted by maggieb at 10:53 AM on May 6, 2013


A fantastic read, thanks. I've only watched the first season (and working my way through the rest is slow when there's so much other good TV on the air right now) but I can't seem to stop myself from consuming ever-increasing amounts of analysis about this show.
posted by Phire at 10:54 AM on May 6, 2013


It's almost like Don's freedom to reinvent himself is innately tied to his gender!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:54 AM on May 6, 2013 [47 favorites]


Betty is sort of vestigial at this point, though hopefully they will make her a bit more relevant.

She was part of the Draper Cheever/Suburban Enui stuff from the early episodes. when Don made the transition from Middle class nobody trying to prove himself with a house in Ossining she was no longer needed on the show

She was sort of a suburban brood mare, abandoned to her own devices by a disinterested Don Draper, who only cared about what she symbolized when they first met, that he could fuck a model. Once he got what he thought he should want, he didn't want it anymore. Don used her, and Megan, as accessories and proof to himself that he meant something.

One thing that is interesting about the show is how we really like the villians, Don Draper and Roger Sterling.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:55 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Two recent articles about Betty Draper that sum up why I think she's the most important character on the show

--
It's almost like...

the opposite of Don Draper and his ability to run away and change his identity at will.

--
It's almost like Don's freedom to reinvent himself is innately tied to his gender!

I might have to take a few vacation days to stay on top of all this awesome.
posted by sweetkid at 10:56 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I also think that January Jones' execrable acting helped force their hands in that regard. Hard to deepen or humanize a character when the actor can barely project humanity on screen. Making her into a cold robotic villain made the best dramatic use of her limited range even if the result made the show shallower in the way you're describing.

THIS states what I was trying to say, but so much better. (We need a catchy acronym or phrase for that.)
posted by MoxieProxy at 10:56 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]




Betty is so obsessed with the importance of beauty that after her minor car accident in S1, she ruminates about how it would be better for Sally to DIE than to have been disfigured in the accident. The dialogue, emphasis mine:
Betty Draper: What if she had gotten a scar? Something permanent?
Don Draper: I don't wanna play "what if".
Betty Draper: I'm just saying, if it had happened to Bobby it'd be ok because a boy with a scar is nothing, but a girl, it's so much worse.
Don Draper: Nothing happened.
Betty Draper: I keep thinking... not that I could have killed the kids, but... worse, Sally could have survived, and gone on living with this horrible scar on her face, and some long, lonely, miserable life...
the opposite of Don Draper and his ability to run away and change his identity at will.

It's almost like Don's freedom to reinvent himself is innately tied to his gender!

GO FIGURE, it's almost like, I dunno, men have some sort of... advantage? privilege? something like that.

And the closest Betty can get to reinventing herself is to marry a new guy (and didn't she luck out with Henry? I was sure he was a creep, but he seems genuinely kind and good for her) and coloring her hair.

When I think of Betty, I'm often imagining all her incarnations as a palimpsest, and beneath all of them is the faint ghost of that confident, self-assured Betty in Rome, sitting in the café gleaming in her up-do and her jewelry, smoking her cigarette and shrugging off those pick-up artists in fluent Italian.
posted by Elsa at 10:58 AM on May 6, 2013 [20 favorites]


Ugh people I have WORK TO DO ugh
posted by Sara C. at 11:01 AM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm so worried that Peggy is going to have an affair with Ted, think this means they are Meant For Each Other, dump Abe, and then Ted will be all, "Uhhhh, that was just blowing off steam after a long week. It didn't, like, mean anything. You know?" And Peggy will be left holding the bag.

Except she'll be rid of Abe, which is so much a bonus. And then she'll hook up with Bob Benson and oh god I think I just discovered fanfic.
posted by psoas at 11:01 AM on May 6, 2013 [11 favorites]


But the show makes it clear that Betty is at least as trapped as Don. More so, really: she's confined to a very narrow range of socially acceptable roles.

That's what I was saying. All the misery and claustrophobia in the first season was a product of how that society approaches men and women. When Betty and Don separated, they could turn that malaise into personal flaw.
posted by outlandishmarxist at 11:01 AM on May 6, 2013


It's almost like Don's freedom to reinvent himself is innately tied to his gender!

Yeah, ask poor Peggy Olson about that. She gets a fresh start and look what happens next. Also, Joan has had to wear horrible Jaguar guy around her neck like an albatross these past couple of episodes.

The men tend to get off scot free. (Pete excepted, apparently.)
posted by purpleclover at 11:02 AM on May 6, 2013


She was sort of a suburban brood mare, abandoned to her own devices by a disinterested Don Draper, who only cared about what she symbolized when they first met, that he could fuck a model. Once he got what he thought he should want, he didn't want it anymore. Don used her, and Megan, as accessories and proof to himself that he meant something.

One thing that is interesting about the show is how we really like the villians, Don Draper and Roger Sterling.


But we don't love Don anymore--or at least, if T&Lo and Sepinwall are any indications--the internet doesn't! And, oh, how I love it.

Weiner has said that this season's premiere could have taken place before the start of the series. Betty was once Megan--talented, well-educated, happy--and then Don's tired, tired, way of smashing a woman's self-worth with his cheating and gaslighting and abuse made her into the robot she was at the beginning of the show.

Only we didn't see that! We saw her as a frigid bitch, and Don as the put-upon dude who had to put up with her! But now we see the genesis, and the price. We are the other woman that he seduced with his charms; we were convinced that he and his wife had grown apart through no fault of his own and all of hers.

Now we're like Betty. We're old enough to know better. God, Don, can't you just pick up your kids [your life] and get your shit together for once?

Of course he can't. Which is why so many people are so sick of his bullshit, it seems.

Why they don't see what they share with Betty, well, I dunno. She'll always be his first [second] wife, I guess.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:02 AM on May 6, 2013 [26 favorites]


can't ...stop
posted by The Whelk at 11:02 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


I find Megan more baffling in context of the show. I get the feeling she's there to get kicked in the teeth hard, sooner or later.

She already has been, several times, by Don.

One of the underlying themes of a couple of long-form cable shows (Mad Men, Boardwalk Empire) as I see it has been how abuse is perpetuated down generational lines.

Indeed. One of the saddest, most difficult, and yet enlightening things I've taken from reactions to the show has been how very much people want to believe in the narcissist (Don), up to and including his overt abuse of women, which is then unfailingly used against the abused women. Anyone who's ever wondered how abusers get away with it, and/or why the abused don't get out sooner: here you go. It's right here, in front of you, spelled out in detail in this show.
posted by fraula at 11:02 AM on May 6, 2013 [31 favorites]


I thought this thread was going to be about Apple Brown Betty.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:04 AM on May 6, 2013


See The Whelk I was thinking the other way round
posted by mod zero at 11:06 AM on May 6, 2013 [17 favorites]


Crocker here.
posted by surplus at 11:06 AM on May 6, 2013


I haven't seen January Jones in anything but Mad Men, but I do not assume that she comes off cold and distant because she is a shitty actress. There's a rage flowing just beneath the surface of the character, and Jones does a great job of giving us glimpses of that rage, of taking a little piece of that rage into every scene. And she can only express this rage in these awful ways like cruelty to her children, because of the trap that she finds herself in. In the context of the 1960s, Betty's treatment of her children is less an aberration than we would like it to be–she may seem monstrous by current standards, but hardly so in a time of widespread corporal punishment and psychological torment.

And on a more practical level, if January Jones wasn't giving the producers what they wanted, if she was just horrible, they'd have let her go and written around her. Maybe characters like Betty are all she can play—I don't know her work well enough to say—but she plays Betty to perfection.
posted by Mister_A at 11:07 AM on May 6, 2013 [20 favorites]


Grubi, I was mistaken about it being Betty Ford. It's a Mad Men reference, actually. I regret the confusion this seems to have caused you.
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:07 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Megan is well on her way to getting crammed into Betty M. 2 by Don. And the thing about Megan is-- we never saw Don's relationship with Betty at this stage, so I don't know if this is different-- Don is sort of terrified of Megan in certain ways, and he doesn't understand her at all. She's of a different generation from him and takes a lot of things for granted that Don finds incredibly threatening.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:07 AM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


From the article: Over at Slate, for instance, they have Betty happily “try[ing] on cute dresses” while she urges her husband to “up his public profile.”

[...]

I saw Betty thinking of Henry, not herself, genuinely proud and supportive of him — right up until the moment when he reminded her that it necessarily would be about her, too, and that she would be entering the public eye with him. And then I saw a moment of true existential dread, as Betty thought about subjecting herself to that pitiless gaze.


Ugh, yes. I groaned out loud in sympathy with Betty as she stood there holding that too-small dress up against herself and imagined having to stand center-stage again. With Henry, she's apparently found some comfort and a sense --- new but growing --- of unconditional love and security, but suddenly she's about to be more publicly scrutinized than ever before. Betty could be heading straight for an eating disorder, or perhaps a diet-pill addiction.

When Betty and Don separated, they could turn that malaise into personal flaw.

Ah, I see. Yes, and the characters actively pursue that self-serving viewpoint. Heck, after Betty learned about Don's secret identity, he fled to Anna and --- though we don't know precisely what he tells Anna about the dissolution of their marriage --- Anna says [something like] "I'm sorry she broke your heart." "Broke your heart" is a long way from "needed to absorb the horror of living a lie that even makes her question her own children's true names."

I love/hate Betty and Don's occasional conversations. They play the same nasty, obstructive guessing games on the phone with each other: "Guess who's in my office" and "I just spent the afternoon with two men from the government" and on and on and on.
posted by Elsa at 11:09 AM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


Can you imagine what would have happened to her if she had Don's baby? We're seeing how tragedy--and to a lesser extent, choice--is going to shape the lives of women, giving them some hope for an exit. Megan probably won't be Betty. At least, I hope I hope--for her sake.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:10 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Alyssa Rosenberg has written a lot about why Anti-Heroes wives tend to earn such hostility from viewers--Skyler White, Carmela Soprano, Lori Grimes, in addition to Betty Draper. The linked conversation in that piece is good, but there are spoilers depending on how caught up you are with Breaking Bad and Walking Dead.
posted by gladly at 11:12 AM on May 6, 2013 [13 favorites]


I also think that January Jones' execrable acting helped force their hands in that regard. Hard to deepen or humanize a character when the actor can barely project humanity on screen. Making her into a cold robotic villain made the best dramatic use of her limited range even if the result made the show shallower in the way you're describing.

We're watching very different shows. We can fight about whether January Jones has dramatic range, but her portrayal of Betty is just -- Jesus. The difference in how Betty carries herself normally, and how she carries herself in the scene in Rome, when she is beautiful and mysterious and gets to use her Italian? The scene where Betty tells Don she wants out of their marriage? Her goddamn heartbreak when she can open up to her daughter's therapist? When she walks through the hosue at the end of that one episode, so heartbroken and alone that she can't put words into it, and in the end, just goes and lies down in her daughter's bed?

There is tremendous, wonderful depth to the way that Jones plays Betty, and it is super, super, super-hard for me not to judge people who watch those scenes and then say that Betty is a "cold robotic villain".

The villain here isn't her. It's an awful, gross society and upbringing that teaches a woman is only valued for her looks.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:12 AM on May 6, 2013 [68 favorites]


I think Don is headed for the Roger Sterling treadmill, that and trying to fight your feelings of inadequacy by seducing the wife of anyone who makes you feel unimportant. I don't know why I'm so angry towards Roger and Don today, Don is certainly a victim as well, and they are both such lovable rogues.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:17 AM on May 6, 2013


I actually really like that Betty's still on the show and not doing well, because for all the travails Joan and Peggy and Megan are faced with, they're all professionally successful at something. By contrast, Betty's found herself in a situation where the one thing asked of her--childrearing--is something she hates. And she's unable to get out. And there are a lot more people who were in her situation than in J/P/M's, I'll bet.

But I really think this passage of the article misses the mark:

...his kids were just sitting there wondering why their father wasn’t there as promised, and then Betty – the nerve! — called Don, quite heedless of the fact that she was interrupting his drinking and his furtive phone calls about his mistress, and spoke harshly to him. What a shrew!

[...] Is it that Betty enjoys belittling Don and his new life because she’s so bitter and nasty, or is it that Betty is such a terrible mother that she just can’t wait to unload her kids?


Well, sure, Betty's a terrible mother. (And she's bitter, but for the most part justifiably so.) Don's terrible at a lot of interpersonal things, and he's a bad father, but she's pushing to have her kids be driven into a city that's erupting in riots just because that's what they'd previously scheduled? Whoa.
posted by psoas at 11:17 AM on May 6, 2013




Shabazz?
posted by fuse theorem at 11:22 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I often wonder how much vitriol directed at Betty is just cause we're not used to seeing realistic depictions of shittyish suburban parenting.
posted by The Whelk at 11:24 AM on May 6, 2013 [18 favorites]


PhoBWanKenobi: It's almost like Don's freedom to reinvent himself is innately tied to his gender!

Of course being a man is necessary for doing what he did, but universal-male-reinvention is not an aspect of this show or of life in the 1960s. Men had and have a lot of systemic advantages, but "escaping poverty, despair and abuse by switching your identity with a dead man and building a successful life using your surprising creativity, charm, intelligence and personal sorrow to tap into the longing and existential dread of everyone around you” is typically not one of them.

Don is a rogue (or hobo, to stay true to the show's archetypes), and it's interesting how much is mask and how much he has become what he portrays. For all his many faults, what Don has done with his life is incredible. His "bullshit" is just that, awful, but it's not the same thing as Pete, or Roger, or Harry, etc. He's a different animal.
posted by spaltavian at 11:25 AM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


she's pushing to have her kids be driven into a city that's erupting in riots just because that's what they'd previously scheduled? Whoa.

Henry told her it would be ok, and Henry was right. I mean I had a friend driving into Boston the night they were still looking for the bomber, and I texted him and he was like..eh it'll be fine. He wasn't getting anywhere near Watertown. Don could have taken a different route that would have had him avoid uptown.

Also that scene was there to get the kids to the city for the next day's story, and also to highlight how little Don was thinking about his own kids, frantically trying to get a hold of Sylvia in New York and drinking.
posted by sweetkid at 11:26 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's kind of funny that in the title "No one's ever on your side, Betty," Betty could plausibly refer to several fictional/nonfictional Betties. Do not name your child Betty. You may as well name them Adolf.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 11:27 AM on May 6, 2013


So, not about the Flintstones then?
posted by PandaMomentum at 11:28 AM on May 6, 2013


Yeah I know all these jokes about which Betty it is are hilarious.
posted by sweetkid at 11:28 AM on May 6, 2013 [14 favorites]


Tell us some then!
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 11:30 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


And the hostility Breaking Bad audiences have for Skyler.

I think the reactions to Betty and Skyler come from completely different places. Betty's character may not be completely sympathetic, but we still enjoy watching her. Skyler annoying because, for all it's strengths, Breaking Bad is a terrible family drama. The family scenes are tense, tedious, depressing, and interminable. Contrast that to the fast-paced, exciting "gangster" plots that make up the better part of the show. We dislike Skyler because the scenes she's in are terrible.

I actually liked Betty a lot through the first couple seasons; I thought she was kind of adorable. She has this facade of good manners that was constantly being put to the test when she was forced into these awkward situations she was never meant to deal with. Season 3 changed my opinion of Betty, because that's when the writers turned her into a Bad Mom. I'm still bothered they did that to her. I thought her character started out as pretty nuanced, and Season 3 made her into sort of a straightforward villain. At this point I think they've kinda left her hanging, and I've found myself thinking on more than one occasion, "Why do we still care what happens to her?" And now we have this whole Henry Francis political subplot, and again, why do we care?

I mean, granted, it's not as bad as what Boardwalk Empire did with Michael Shannon's character -- it's almost as if they spun him off into his own mini-show -- but I'm really, really hoping they're keeping Betty around for a reason, and her story arc doesn't just serve as this sort of long-running shaggy dog story.
posted by Afroblanco at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Don's terrible at a lot of interpersonal things, and he's a bad father, but she's pushing to have her kids be driven into a city that's erupting in riots just because that's what they'd previously scheduled?

I'm not going to pretend that Betty's a good mother (I mean, how could I? She locked Sally in a closet and threatened to leave her there all night. She threatened to cut off Sally's fingers for masturbating at a sleepover), but she really might have thought it was okay in the city. Henry's been going to work, walking around the most potentially dangerous powder-keg neighborhoods, and he's probably been reassuring her that it's fine.

Betty even says as much to Don, a quick cutting "Well, of course, Henry thinks it's fine!," though Henry may have been just been uttering empty reassurances of his own safety and not thinking she'd send the kids into the city.

And overall, she's not wrong: we've seen Don forget or blow off his time with the kids over and over again --- even when he was still married to Betty, he walked out of Sally's birthday party and never returned, even though that meant leaving her without a cake, and he took off to California without notice or any word of when he might return.

Don's ruined plenty of Betty's (and Henry's) weekend plans by saddling them with the kids when they expected to be childless and she's right to be setting some boundaries about it, especially if Henry's going to be undertaking the more demanding role and schedule of a political candidate rather than a consultant. Don has to learn to honor his commitments and to respect someone else's schedule, or at the very least to call when he plans to blow something off so they can make other arrangements.

That doesn't excuse sending the kids into a potential riot zone, but a combination of the longlived pattern she has with Don, the belief that if it's okay for Henry it's okay for the kids, and her habitual self-centered fury overwhelming her parental judgment, I find it completely believable.
posted by Elsa at 11:33 AM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


'80s Don Draper @80sDonDraper 26 Apr
New Coke: Cure for the Common Coke

posted by mikepop at 11:34 AM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


I have sympathy for Betty, though she isn't someone I would care to know (but then I am not sure I'd care to know many of the Mad Men characters!). I find the misogynist women-blaming of Mad Men discussions upsetting: it's so common for people to be so much more critical of Don's women than they are of Don.

In Betty's case, people forget all she has been through in the last eight years: losing both parents, an unplanned pregnancy, and after ten years of marriage to a man who cheated on her incessantly, spent little time with her, and disappeared whenever he wanted and for up to six weeks at a stretch, finding out he was a deserter who lied to her about his identity. Then the end of her marriage and the beginning of a new one. Then a cancer scare.

Betty isn't dealing with it all particularly well, but no one would get over ten years of suppressed rage all that quickly, and then although she's intelligent she just doesn't have much depth.

I see a way forward for her. She needs to figure out a way to address the bitter disappointment she feels over her first marriage, to let go of the image of superficial perfection she has in her head, and to become better at relating to others. And then I think she'd enjoy her life, because she's in a good marriage and she would enjoy being a politician's wife, which would mean a lot of dressing up and appearing at functions and meeting interesting people. And she could take up some sort of charitable efforts, because with her intelligence and self-discipline and organizational abilities she could be really good at doing something worthwhile.

I don't know if she'll ever figure all that out, although she might do some of it.

Oh, and I hope they keep her in the story. I like the fact that we're actually seeing a housewife's story rather than just working women, and Sally, who is a great character played by the wonderful little Kiernan Shipka, benefits greatly from being shown in the context of her home.
posted by orange swan at 11:34 AM on May 6, 2013 [12 favorites]


Men had and have a lot of systemic advantages, but "escaping poverty, despair and abuse by switching your identity with a dead man and building a successful life using your surprising creativity, charm, intelligence and personal sorrow to tap into the longing and existential dread of everyone around you” is typically not one of them.

"Creativity, charm, intelligence and personal sorrow" translating to "professional success and renumeration, as well as the ability to have sex with much younger, highly attractive partners without societal judgment", however, is.

One of the points of the show is that Don gets to try and reinvent himself as a brand new human in a brand city in a brand new job for him. Betty gets to reinvent herself by -- getting a fashionable hairdo at the hair salon while her husband is working, then playacting at romance with her husband. Don's ability to reinvent himself and tell his super-hot, sophisticated, much-younger wife everything and have her still love him, contrasted with Betty's continuing struggle to even accept that Henry Francis can still be attracted to her and want people to see and meet her if she gains weight?

To me, it's one of the central tragedies of the show, and totally bound up in the ways in which Don is privileged because he's a dude and Betty isn't.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:35 AM on May 6, 2013 [17 favorites]


We dislike Skyler because the scenes she's in are terrible.

I'm only into the second season of BB, so I say this provisionally, but there's definitely more than that: Skyler is the scold to the anti-hero. She's constantly reminding us that Walt is a bad person. He cooks meth, he initiates violence, he's hiding a massive secret from his family, and doing all of it self-righteously because his motives are good. We're hostile to Skyler because she's a buzzkill on our enjoyment of Walt as Tony Montana. She's annoying because she's right and we don't want her to be.
posted by fatbird at 11:37 AM on May 6, 2013 [20 favorites]


Alyssa Rosenberg has written a lot about why Anti-Heroes wives tend to earn such hostility from viewers--Skyler White, Carmela Soprano, Lori Grimes, in addition to Betty Draper.

I wish I could remember where I was first introduced to this term, but I've heard the term "Grisham Wife" used to describe this phenomenon. Basically, you have some premise where an ambitious young man gets in over his head (as in many John Grisham novels), and then you have the Grisham Wife character who tries to stop him from getting in over his head. And we don't like her because basically she's trying to stall the plot, and as viewers we want to see the plot progress. The Grisham Wife owes her existence to writers' inability to write good female characters. If they were to make the wife character more real, we'd sympathize with her more. And really, we should be on her side. She's actually right. She doesn't want the protagonist to screw up his life, and by extension, his whole family. I think that by writing one-dimensional Grisham Wife characters, writers undermine the potential emotional impact of their own movie or show. Imagine how much more emotionally rich these shows would be if we actually cared about the protagonists' families?
posted by Afroblanco at 11:38 AM on May 6, 2013 [20 favorites]


Can I just say, I love Metafilter for having this long, fascinating, and complex discussion about Betty Draper. Instead of what usually happens on the internet, which is some version of "BETTY SHREW BITCH FAT NOW HA HA."
posted by ErikaB at 11:38 AM on May 6, 2013 [13 favorites]


Breaking Bad is a terrible family drama. The family scenes are tense, tedious, depressing, and interminable.

In fairness, the relationship between Walt and Skyler is in fact tense, tedious, depressing, and interminable, so the fact that their scenes convey those qualities could be a feature or a bug.

And the hostility Breaking Bad audiences have for Skyler.

Without -- I hope -- giving away too much, I think that, for the most part, audiences this season have come around to sympathizing with Skyler.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 11:42 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think that by writing one-dimensional Grisham Wife characters, writers undermine the potential emotional impact of their own movie or show. Imagine how much more emotionally rich these shows would be if we actually cared about the protagonists' families?

But I don't find any of these characters one-dimensional (well, except Lori Grimes, but that's because every goddam person on that show has half a dimension at best). Betty's one of my favorite characters on Mad Men. In every scene between Skyler and Walt, I'm totes on Skyler's side, and when she snowed the IRS for Ted it was one of the coolest things that's happened on Breaking Bad.

I have a real distaste for how the internet writ large tends to complain about the female leads on male-protagonist shows and then complain about the show's bare existence on female-protagonist shows. It's kinda gross, big-picture.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:43 AM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


joyceanmachine, well year, Don and men in general get to channel things into professional success that women don't, and Don and men in general get a lot more leeway with their personal relations. I never said anything to the contrary. The first thing I said was men had and have a lot of systemic advantages, it's the "escaping poverty, despair and abuse by switching your identity with a dead man and building a successful life" you truncated that's different.

Even though being a man let Don do what he did, Don is not an example of what every, many, or hardly any men can get away with. Don snuck into a class of men who prevent most men from doing so.
posted by spaltavian at 11:46 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I agree, with shakes, I'm always on Skyler's side. Walt has long since abandoned any real pretense about why he's doing what he's doing; he's pretty clearly getting off on it (I AM THE ONE WHO KNOCKS). Skyler has taken huge risks in order to keep things from becoming even worse, and must live under the long shadow of violence thanks to her husband.
posted by Mister_A at 11:47 AM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


In fairness, the relationship between Walt and Skyler is in fact tense, tedious, depressing, and interminable

Sure, but those scenes are not entertaining. They're painful. Unremittingly so. Does not make for an enjoyable viewing experience. And remember -- we ARE watching this show to be entertained. After Season 2, you could fast-forward through all the family scenes and have a much more enjoyable show.

(I recall the family scenes were a lot more relevant in the first couple seasons, when Walt was still trying to hide his secret from Skyler. Ever since then, it's been like, "Oh great, another awkward breakfast scene. I'm going into the other room to get a beer. Want one?")
posted by Afroblanco at 11:49 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I disagree, Afroblanco - for me, the family scenes are the central source of dramatic tension. Without Skyler and the kids, I don't really care too much about Walt because he's a narcissistic shitbag drug dealer. Having them attached gives the whole thing weight.
posted by Mister_A at 11:52 AM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


Nothing is fun about watching someone follow the rules. People don't like Skyler because the show is Breaking Bad and that's what people came to see. She was a lot more interesting when she became part of the scheme.
posted by spaltavian at 11:58 AM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


There is tremendous, wonderful depth to the way that Jones plays Betty, and it is super, super, super-hard for me not to judge people who watch those scenes and then say that Betty is a "cold robotic villain".

Metafilter: it is super, super, super-hard for me not to judge people
posted by Fleebnork at 11:59 AM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


I mean I never hear people bitching about Walt Jr being tedious or grating even though he's far more inconsequential plot wise than Skylar.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:02 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


I have said before that I feel like a Lonely Island of Grokking Betty.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:02 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


I mean I never hear people bitching about Walt Jr being tedious or grating

You have right in this thread, with Afroblanco saying all the family scenes are tedious. Walt Jr is a lot more boring than Skyler, and I honestly could deal with less of him.
posted by spaltavian at 12:03 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I haven't seen January Jones in anything but Mad Men, but I do not assume that she comes off cold and distant because she is a shitty actress.

The only other thing I've seen her in is Love, Actually, where her part isn't so much a role but a caricature. She accomplishes the task at hand, but that's really all there is to say about it.
posted by Sara C. at 12:09 PM on May 6, 2013


I actually think there is another gender issue with Skyler, and you see it with Margaret Schroeder in Boardwalk Empire as well. It's that oftentimes the only character that women get to play is that of spoilsport.

The trouble is that audiences tend to have a pretty specific response to certain narrative conventions, and one of them is that we tend to root for the main character, particularly if they have clearly articulated goals, even if those goals are reprehensible. This is in part because we're watching fiction, and so we can indulge in fantasies about a criminal lifestyle without it affecting the real world, and it is, in part, because we have been trained by a lifetime of watching narrative fiction to locate the protagonist and his (and its usually his) goals and want to see them accomplish them.

But a sexist trope is that women are somehow a civilizing influence, and so they are often thrown is as the unwelcome Jiminy Cricket to the show's protagonist, constantly rebuffing his wants and often shrewishly scolding him for pursuing a goal that the show actually needs him to pursue in order to have a show. I mean, if Skylar had talked her husband out of being a meth dealer at the start of Breaking Bad, it would have been called Never Breaking Bad, and wouldn't be on the air right now.

I think this essential structure forces women to be unpopular characters in shows, because it means they are actively working against the narrative thrust of the story -- that actually makes them a sort of antagonist, a complaining villain who doesn't just work against the goals of the hero (or antihero), but actually tries to undermine the audience's pleasure in the story. It's a terrible role to put women in, and yet we see them all the time, spoilsport after spoilsport after spoilsport. Sometimes it makes the characters seem to have multiple identities, as with Margaret Schroeder, who sometimes is a crusading suffragette who is capable of making her own dazzling power plays, and sometimes is a weak-willed Catholic whose superstition is going to ruin all the fun and causes her husband Treasure of the Sierra Madre moments of defeat.

When this pops up in film and television, I try not to hate the character, or the poor actress forced to play the role. I try to hate the writer.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:09 PM on May 6, 2013 [34 favorites]


Long story short everyone should have been watching Enlightened.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:13 PM on May 6, 2013 [6 favorites]


I've always thought January Jones is an excellent actress, because everything about her "Betty" rings true to me. And I was born in 1952. I mean, some of my friends' mothers kind of WERE Betty in one way or another. Always pretty, always ready for company, yet also rattling around in too-big houses with nothing to do all day.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 12:13 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sure, but those scenes are not entertaining. They're painful. Unremittingly so. Does not make for an enjoyable viewing experience.

Being a fan of Breaking Bad is definitely an increasingly masochistic experience!

In defense of those family scenes, though, I think it's great how they've evolved over the course of the series. The Walt-Skyler relationship started out as a stereotypical "beleaguered husband / shrewish, ball-busting wife" situation, but became a lot more interesting once it stopped being about Walt trying to keep Skyler from finding out about his illicit activities, and became more about Skyler's own "breaking bad" and being drawn into Walt's world.

Their scenes have become much, much more agonizing and difficult to sit through -- there were moments in the past 8 episodes that were more wrenching and uncomfortable than any husband-wife conflict I've seen on TV (that includes The Sopranos' "Whitecaps"). Which I do find entertaining, albeit in a "wow, this show is actually making me lose my will to live, I am impressed" sort of way.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 12:15 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is it that Betty enjoys belittling Don and his new life because she’s so bitter and nasty, or is it that Betty is such a terrible mother that she just can’t wait to unload her kids?

I think it's also that ITS YOUR WEEKEND GAH is such a trope of divorced parents. A realistic one, too.

I love my parents dearly, but you better believe that if all hell broke loose and it was HIS WEEKEND, my mom would have been making that phone call. Or my dad would have been pulling a version of what Pete tried to do, "The kids need their dad, and after all, IT'S MY WEEKEND."
posted by Sara C. at 12:16 PM on May 6, 2013


Being a fan of Breaking Bad is definitely an increasingly masochistic experience!

I'm liking this Breaking Bad discussion, if only to reassure me that bailing in season 1 when the corpse falls through the bathtub was a fine, fine decision.
posted by purpleclover at 12:18 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


I think the Breaking Bad discussion would be better if people could at least contrast with Mad Men.
posted by sweetkid at 12:20 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm kind of wishing the Breaking Bad fans would take their discussion somewhere else.
posted by orange swan at 12:20 PM on May 6, 2013 [10 favorites]


I'm glad Harris called out the Slate TV Club folks for not noticing that when Betty holds up the "cute dress" it's for her old body and would not fit her now.

Agreed, but that's kinda like calling somebody out for not being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. How does anyone miss that?

After Sally, Betty is my favorite character and I'm very glad they haven't killed her off (yet).

What was also interesting to me about "The Flood" was my own realization of how good a father and a man Henry Francis is, and how bad a father and a man Don is.

Though somewhat misguided and backwards even for the time, Henry wants to do good things.

Don is all about "got mine fuck you."
posted by mrgrimm at 12:21 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Skyler annoying because, for all it's strengths, Breaking Bad is a terrible family drama. The family scenes are tense, tedious, depressing, and interminable. Contrast that to the fast-paced, exciting "gangster" plots that make up the better part of the show. We dislike Skyler because the scenes she's in are terrible.

But that's just a microcosm of this whole phenomenon.

The mom/wife actress SUX!

But it's not really her fault! It's because the scenes she's in are DUMB. GAH, why can't they be like the fast-paced dramatic drug dealer scenes?

It's just yet another side of the coin where women are denigrated for the act of being female. It's less pronounced on Mad Men, because the roles for women are a lot more nuanced. But even on Mad Men, I think it's absolutely true that the reason we hate Betty is because Betty doesn't get any of the Sexy New Modern trappings of the ad agency. Betty doesn't get to Come A Long Way, Baby. Betty doesn't get a xerox machine or a hip black secretary or a miniskirt. Betty is mom, imprisoned in a domestic sphere that is really not too different from the domestic sphere Skyler is imprisoned in.

And moms are SO BORING, amirite?
posted by Sara C. at 12:23 PM on May 6, 2013 [20 favorites]


I'm kind of wishing the Breaking Bad fans would take their discussion somewhere else.

I'm kind of wishing the Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and GOT fans would royal rumble and kill 80% of each other off so we could get some other decent TV programming these here days. ;)
posted by mrgrimm at 12:24 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


(Also, while I actually like Skyler and adore Anna Gunn, I hate the name Skyler. And if you have to use that name, can't you spell it correctly? SCHUYLER. Geez. I don't ask for much. Can't I have Schuyler instead of the illiterate post-apocalyptic Skyler? It's almost as bad as KateLynn and Aeden.)
posted by Sara C. at 12:26 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


Wait, this isn't about how entrenched the patriarchy was in not just culture, but laidback California stoner culture in the 1990s that a recently unfrozen caveman would hardly have to adapt at all to fit right into the gender roles already expected for him and his peers?

Betty nugz people. One woeful sympathetic BETTY, BETTY NUGZ to you all.
posted by elr at 12:26 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


That's cool but this is a Mad Men thread and it's weird for people to a) discuss a different show and b) complain that Mad Men has fans that want to talk about the show.

Seriously, whole internet out there.
posted by sweetkid at 12:27 PM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


Wait, why is this necessarily a Mad Men thread? It doesn't seem like it should be out of bounds to talk about this character in relation to characters on other TV shows that are frequently held up in comparison to Mad Men, and how Betty's characterization relates (or not) to general trends in the characterization of women.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:31 PM on May 6, 2013 [6 favorites]


Sara C. :And moms are SO BORING, amirite?

Yes. So am I. Domestic life is boring. I suspect you would not watch a show realistically depicting my life.

Episode 1: Spaltavian briefly forgets how to subtotal in a spreadsheet, but then remembers. His sister-in-law has an exam.

Episode 2: Spaltavian has trouble deciding if he's in the mood for beer or scotch. Drinks both. His wife is stuck in traffic.

Episode 3: Spaltavian reads the internet. His wife reads the internet.

The fact that women were not allowed out of the domestic sphere was sexist, being bored with depictions of said domesticity is not.
posted by spaltavian at 12:34 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Like I said earlier, discussing Mad Men in relation to Breaking Bad seems fine to me, but just whole Breaking Bad comments about Skyler without any compare/contrast to Betty is derailly.
posted by sweetkid at 12:34 PM on May 6, 2013


I hate the name Skyler.

OH I KNOW. Everytime I hear that name, I think of a ten year old boy with a mullet and a sleeveless Def Leppard shirt riding in the back of a Suburu Brat.
posted by entropicamericana at 12:34 PM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


The trouble is that audiences tend to have a pretty specific response to certain narrative conventions, and one of them is that we tend to root for the main character, particularly if they have clearly articulated goals, even if those goals are reprehensible.

Yeah, really the worst thing a character can be in a drama is boring. We respond to a character with a goal, no matter what that goal is. We'll root for and rationalize our rooting for a guy who cheats on his wife over the faithful wife, and find reasons to hate the wife even though she acts out of misery and insecurity, because she doesn't generally articulate or act decisively upon those things that are making her miserable, and we hate passivity more than we hate immorality. (Pete would be an likable character -- well, almost -- on Mad Men if he had the strength of his convictions. His smarmy behavior is smarmy in large part because he doesn't own his actions the way the other men do.)

And, sorry to bring another show into this, but one thing I find really interesting about The Americans is that it is a show that puts (American) viewers in a position of rooting for characters most of us would otherwise (in the Reagan Era, anyway) consider reprehensible, by virtue of the fact that the show is about them, and they have a strong, identifiable goal.

I guess it explains how horrible people can enjoy so much support among the public. We're drawn to dynamism, no matter how it's aligned.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 12:34 PM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


BTW, anyone who watches Mad Men and Breaking Bad should check out Rectify. I watched the first three episodes yesterday and so far it's excellent.

Here's the Scene That Made Me Fall in Love With Rectify
posted by homunculus at 12:35 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Sara C. :And moms are SO BORING, amirite?

Yes. So am I. I suspect you would not watch a show realistically depicting my life.


But I don't think the options are only:

AWESOME SHOWS ABOUT KEWL ANTI-HERO DUDES

BORING STUPID SHOWS ABOUT LAME CHIX WHO ARE LIKE RESPONSIBLE MOMS & SHIT

And if those really are the only options we have on TV in 2013, we sure as fuck need a new crop of writers to come along and shake that up. Because that shit is stoooooopid.

(This thread is giving me soooooo many writing notes you guys can't even IMAGINE)
posted by Sara C. at 12:38 PM on May 6, 2013 [7 favorites]


Speaking of Lonely Islands - personally, my dislike of January Jones's acting came from her appearance as possibly the worst SNL host I've ever seen. I'm not saying ever week is a gem or anything, but they usually get *something* out of the host and she was even terrible in the Mad Men parody.
posted by maryr at 12:39 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Most of these controversies can be resolved by realizing that people generally aren't simple and unambiguous. Is Betty superficially thinking of herself, or proud of Henry? Does she enjoy the public eye, or does she dread it? Is she resentful and trying to get rid of her kids, or is she frustrated that Don isn't pulling his weight? She might be all of these things at the same time. Who really knows?

You can't know who the characters really are, because you don't know them well enough. If you watch a 2 minute scene and take what the character says in that moment as the definitive expression of Who They Are, you're making a lot of assumptions. Someone watching the same scene might interpret it as a passing thought, or a product of the circumstances.

It's not possible to resolve the disagreement, and it's about as interesting and meaningful as debating who would win in a fight, Superman or the Hulk.
posted by AlsoMike at 12:40 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


sweetkid -- sorry I was a little behind in the thread there. Though I maintain that the name Skyler is stupid.

The name Betty for the character and the time is absolutely perfect. She's not Beth or Liz, she's Betty.
posted by Sara C. at 12:40 PM on May 6, 2013


(Of course, January Jones also suffers from the comparison to Jon Hamm who is a pretty termendous comic actor.)
posted by maryr at 12:41 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


You can't know who the characters really are, because you don't know them well enough. If you watch a 2 minute scene and take what the character says in that moment as the definitive expression of Who They Are, you're making a lot of assumptions.

The reason Mad Men is such a great show is because this is the case.

Because, seriously, on 99% of other shows, we are expected to completely know any character via a 2 minute scene.
posted by Sara C. at 12:43 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think a discussion about Betty and gender in Mad Men can logically lead to discussion of gender in other shows. I also think it is more of a derail to try to police this thread into only being a discussion of Mad Men; that's why we have flags and MetaTalk.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:44 PM on May 6, 2013 [6 favorites]


I just exchanged a bunch of emails with a friend of mine who has just started watching Mad Men and has...if not a positive opinion of Betty, than at least a more sympathetic attitude towards her. (Particularly in light of her relationship with Don and his manipulation and gaslighting.) Talking about Betty with LLM has led me to consider my own attitude towards Betty, who I never quite hated as much as the rest of the internet.

When I look at Betty, I think about my maternal grandmother, with whom I had a rather tumultuous relationship. My grandmother had a great gift for color and silhouette, which led her to go shopping pretty much every weekend. She was also not the most congenial person around, and we would frequently fight over matters large and small. I felt badly towards her when I was a teenager, and my pity expressed itself in a sneering, condescending attitude towards this angry, depressed woman who went to the mall like a teenager and made sure that we were all dressed well. As an adult I think about the thankless job at a credit union that she worked for most of her life, her contentious relationship with her husband, and how frustrated she must have felt at how her life turned out. And then I think about Betty, who's of the same generation as my grandmother, and things come into focus a bit more.

I also think Betty is so hated as a character because people want to tag along with Don Draper and live his fabulous-seeming life, at least as it's portrayed in the first two seasons. Most people don't think about the double life he leads, the guilt he must feel, and his alcoholism. They want the awesome apartment, the rotating cast of sexual partners, and the high-powered jobs, but they don't think of all the guilt that comes with Being Don Draper. To some extent, Betty represents an externalization of his responsibilities and guilt, and that combined with some of January Jones's affectations (the high, brittle voice, most notably) makes her the most disliked characters. And now the shallow ways in which people discuss the show on the internet hits me all over again.
posted by pxe2000 at 12:47 PM on May 6, 2013 [7 favorites]


Skyler annoying because, for all it's strengths, Breaking Bad is a terrible family drama. The family scenes are tense, tedious, depressing, and interminable.

The seething hatred can lead to some great scenes though. *takes extremely long drink of water*
posted by Drinky Die at 12:49 PM on May 6, 2013


We dislike Skyler because the scenes she's in are terrible.

Well, most of the Skyler scenes are indoors, where the directors framed the interior scenes to be claustrophobic and subtly out-of-balance, to help us identify with Walt's continual need to Break.
posted by surplus at 12:49 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I wonder if a certain amount of some fans' reaction is that Homemaker As Career isn't as much of a thing now as it was then. People call Betty stupid and shallow for caring about things like the wallpaper and her children's public behavior, who would never fault Don for being ambitious about his position at SCDP or caring about his professional reputation. Traditional homemakers are like traditional farmers: you don't really have the luxury of a line between your personal and professional life. Your home and family isn't JUST your home and family; it's also your product.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:56 PM on May 6, 2013 [9 favorites]


I remember a lot of people having an ultra-positive take on Betty in the first season or so. It's really in Season 4 that she becomes a shrill harpy that everyone HATES SO MUCH.

I think a lot of the hate comes out of the fact that people used to love her, and they watched the idyllic image of beautiful retro domesticity shattered before their eyes. Partially because the domestic sphere hasn't changed that much in 50 years* -- we see our own childhoods in the Draper kids' childhoods, and we see our own bad times and family secrets in the Drapers' dirty laundry.

*Seriously this is now my new lens to see the world through and I'm probably going to repeat it like a mantra for the next week or so.
posted by Sara C. at 12:56 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Thinking back at the first few seasons of the show, I can't imagine Betty being any other way than she is. She was raised to present an image of perfection, and not only did she need to appear perfect, she has to make that perfection appear effortless. And she finds herself married to an alcoholic, a serial philanderer, a man who has deserted in wartime and stolen another's identity. And we dislike her for being bitter? She dutifully filled the roles she was raised to fill, and they do not bring her joy. Hard to blame her.

1968 Betty is gradually unclenching- that she went to the Village looking for Sandy and held her own with the hippies in the squat, that showed some depth we hadn't been allowed to see when she was trying to be Betty Draper, the image of effortless perfection.
posted by ambrosia at 12:59 PM on May 6, 2013 [7 favorites]


Part of what's interesting to me about Betty is trying to figure out what she is. Okay, she's the product of a deeply fucked up system and her head is filled with strange ideas. She is what she's made to be. But she's also an individual. At what point does her bad behavior become her responsibility? Where do we draw the line between "victim of a fucked up society" and "asshole?" Not every woman who lived in those times was warped to be like that.

This makes us wonder: is Betty just plain nasty? Would she have been a selfish, closed-off jerkass even had she been born forty years later? The fun part? We can't tell. We might have a fighting chance if we could see more of Betty's peers for comparison. I can understand why we don't for practical reasons -- not enough episodes -- but I'd love to see it.

This is the same problem we have with real people, provided we pay attention. What's the line between who we are no matter what and who we are based upon circumstance? It'd be so much easier if we could just label people as "assholes" and "good folks" without having to understand context or consider the flexibility of personality. Goddamn context and human complexity, complicating everything.
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 1:01 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm not saying she's a monster or that she hasn't been ill-treated, but Betty has definitely squandered some of my sympathy when she fired housekeeper.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:01 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


This is all very interesting because I haven't read much criticism of Mad Men due to not having been a viewer until relatively recently.

To me, Betty is a product of the Old Guard of white, northeastern classism that is the backdrop the program is filmed against. A system that Dick infiltrated by becoming Don. She was raised to expect a certain lifestyle, and for the most part that's what she got.

Right up until she discovers Don's secret shoe-box. Then, partly because I think she didn't know what else to do—recall how judgmental she and the neighbor woman were of a divorcee moving into the neighborhood and how they worried she might drive property values down—and partly because of her deep seated self-loathing, she becomes a class traitor and Don's co-conspirator in perpetuating the hoax. They divorce, but for the sake of her children—and herself, of course—she keeps Don's secret. Not to mention she already had prepared a lifeboat for herself by developing a relationship with Henry Francis.

While the audience sees mostly the arguments and passive-aggressive bickering between Don and Betty, as we saw in the Season One finale, they had their good times as well. That scene also reveals why Betty and the children didn't "get on the bus." For all his many, many faults as a husband, a father, and a man, Don needs his family. You can see it in his eyes.

Which is the real reason I think many people are less sympathetic to Betty than circumstances would seem to dictate. While she play-acts at being a fawn lost in the woods, the audience sees her in her private moments to be calculating, manipulative, and cold-hearted. Whereas Don—aloof, philandering, and moody as he is—truly is lost in the proverbial woods and play-acts at being the epitome of the Old Guard northeastern white establishment. To me Don and Betty are two sides of the same coin.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:01 PM on May 6, 2013 [8 favorites]


recall how judgmental she and the neighbor woman were of a divorcee moving into the neighborhood and how they worried she might drive property values down

Ugh, it is so astounding to me how anyone could think like this and not automatically realize how full of shit they are, even during the 1960s. I actually encountered someone seriously making this argument during my state's equal marriage fight—that if same-sex couples could get married, they'd be more likely to buy houses together, and that might bring property values down in neighborhoods, and that hence was a reason for the voters to have the government deny them marriage licenses.
posted by XMLicious at 1:17 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's hard not to think about Betty, Joan and Peggy as three contrasting characters who choose different means of getting ahead. Peggy walks up the door and opens it, shoving the doorman aside if necessary; Joan sleeps with the doorman so he'll do whatever she wants; Betty marries the guy who tips the doorman.

But the real contrast is in how far their character strategies are taking them. Peggy has made quite steady progress, until now she finds herself in Don's position and facing problems that are basically unrelated to her sex. Joan got stalled several times, but her strategy finally paid off and she's now a partner.

Betty, though, got the early payoff of a beautiful married life to a high powered ad man, and watched it all stop there. A big part of Betty's character is that she has no goals, and is reduced to wandering her life engaging in the mindless masochism of the bored.
posted by fatbird at 1:18 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think we are pre-disposed to dislike Skyler because at the very beginning of the series, we are introduced to her as the spouse that downplays Walt's illness. He looks like hell, he can't stop coughing and Skyler tells him to take some health food store version of a cough/cold remedy. Anyone watching the show the premise. We know this is a problem.
posted by readery at 1:20 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


If you don't like Skyler that's your problem, man. She's trying to keep her babbies from getting blowed up!
posted by Mister_A at 1:24 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


It's hard not to think about Betty, Joan and Peggy as three contrasting characters who choose different means of getting ahead. Peggy walks up the door and opens it, shoving the doorman aside if necessary; Joan sleeps with the doorman so he'll do whatever she wants; Betty marries the guy who tips the doorman.

So where does that put Megan? Marries the guy who tips the doorman and then convinces him to move to a single family home, no doorman to stand in her way? Marries the guy who tips the doorman and has no idea there ever was a doorman?
posted by Sara C. at 1:25 PM on May 6, 2013


Betty, Joan and Peggy as three contrasting characters who choose different means of getting ahead

But they didn't really choose, did they? Each was given "an" option.

P.S. I think Megan represents a different generation, so apples & oranges.
posted by MoxieProxy at 1:28 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Joan sleeps with the doorman so he'll do whatever she wants;

Huh, I don't think that's Joan at all. Her erstwhile relationship with Roger seemed pretty genuine (on her end at least, although she's also wise enough to Roger to keep him at arm's length); her fucking awful husband eventually got kicked to the curb, and not because he failed to become a doctor but because he was fucking awful; when she slept with Jaguar it was... extremely complicated.

Joan was totes aware of her position at the firm. Back pre-season one, she ruled the secretary's pool and had about as much power as a woman could have in a business, and then along comes Peggy, leapfrogging out of the pool and into 'real' work. The one time Joan was able to work creative, she got plunked back in her place as soon as they didn't need her anymore. She's aware that the world is changing and that she was born just a handful of years too early to have taken advantage of this change-- she could very easily see herself going down the Betty Draper road, doomed to live out the fantasies of a prefeminist world.

And Joan is smart: she's really running the books for the firm, even though a man has the position. She's keeping the place afloat and getting nothing for it. And when an opportunity finally comes for her-- remember, they don't even offer her the partnership to sleep with Jaguar, they just want her to do it. All of these men telling her that it's her choice whether she should get pimped out for the sake of a firm they've never allowed her to actually get a toehold in.

So she demands a partnership, and gets it, but she still has to do it on their terms. And they won't let her forget it-- Harry's outburst a few episodes back shows that even this advancement she's made will never be seen as a real advancement. She's never been allowed to do anything on her terms, even when she tries to wrest the terms into her favor as much as possible.

Joan isn't the person who sleeps with the doorman so he'll do whatever she wants, she's the person who sleeps with the doorman because he won't let her in the building otherwise, and when she does he calls her a whore.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:31 PM on May 6, 2013 [47 favorites]


Ugh, it is so astounding to me how anyone could think like this and not automatically realize how full of shit they are, even during the 1960s.

So my mom (a contemporary of Betty, as noted above) told me a story a few years ago that stunned me. Growing up, I'd had a playmate, a little boy my age I'll call Jay. He lived five or six houses down the street. As a small child I did not know this, but Jay's mother had been married, had a child, had an affair with another man, became pregnant (with Jay) from that relationship. Her first marriage ended, and she kept the house and married the man from the affair, and had another child with him.

So my mother relates that back in 1968, both she and Jay's mother are visibly pregnant at the same time, and Jay's mother is going door to door for some Junior League or Red Cross thing. Some totally appropriate activity for suburban housewife in 1968. And Jay's mother rings our doorbell, and my mom opens the door, and Jay's mom bursts into tears, because none of the other women on our street had opened the door to her when she rang the bell. Because they were shunning her for her shameful behavior.

Gobsmacked, I was, when I heard that story. Some things have changed.

Can I say how much I am looking forward to the next episode of Mad Men? I was born in the wee hours of June 7, 1968, my mother remembers being in labor and hearing the news about Bobby Kennedy having been shot. So curious to see what the show does with that.
posted by ambrosia at 1:32 PM on May 6, 2013 [11 favorites]


Well, they "chose" in the sense of life choices. Peggy theoretically could have tried to take the Secretary-To-Wife track. Joan could have turned down Roger in favor of someone who could actually marry her. Betty could have been like "fuck this I'm getting a job" when she started feeling crazy, and pursued something that wasn't as tied to being This Year's Model as modeling.

Nobody sat them down and said, "would you like to be a wife, a career-woman, or a sneaky tramp?" but they chose, nonetheless. You could argue that each of them could never made a different choice and could never have been anyone but the person they became. Which could be true, but doesn't invalidate their different paths based on choices.
posted by Sara C. at 1:34 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


P.S. I think Megan represents a different generation, so apples & oranges.

But Peggy and Megan are only a year apart or so in age. Also if Megan is supposed to be more modern than Peggy, she's not doing a good job of it, given that Peggy is cohabiting with a boyfriend and is copy chief at a major agency, paying her own bills, where Megan just married Don. She seems to be making money with her show, but she is really not coming a long way, baby. That's Peggy.
posted by sweetkid at 1:36 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think Megan represents a different generation, so apples & oranges.

Why? Megan and Peggy are around the same age.
posted by Sara C. at 1:42 PM on May 6, 2013


Yeah but Megan is a member of The Youth Culture a lot more than Peggy, despite Peggy's flirtation with bohemians etc.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:43 PM on May 6, 2013


Yeah the really cool thing about Peggy is that she's sort of very quietly upsetting the apple cart. She is now "copy chief at a top 10 agency before age 30," an impressive feat for anyone.
posted by Mister_A at 1:44 PM on May 6, 2013


Shut up shakes Peggy 4eva
posted by Mister_A at 1:44 PM on May 6, 2013


You misread me if you think I'm not Team Peggy. Peggy would tear Megan into shreds. But Peggy's never coming home with Revolver.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:46 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah but so what? The comparisons started with how these women go about getting what they want in life, not if they wear the right clothes or listen to the right music for their generation.
posted by sweetkid at 1:51 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Peggy theoretically could have tried to take the Secretary-To-Wife track.

Remember the scene early on in S1, when Peggy tries to hit on Don? And he just shuts her down cold? And how she gets pregnant with Pete's kid, but puts the child up for adoption?

The gap in conventional physical attractiveness between Betty-as-Grace-Kelly, Joan-as-Marilyn-Monroe, and Megan-as-a-gorgeous-international-cosmpolitan-1960s-fox is one of the most interesting things in Mad Men. Don wouldn't have married either Betty or Megan if they weren't gorgeous trophies for their respective decades, and Joan wouldn't have ruled the office the way she did in S1 if she'd been dumpy or even 10 years older than she was. It's also interesting to think about Joan and Betty as contemporaries in both time and beauty, but with Joan as the working class/Marilyn Monroe style of beauty and Betty as the upper class/Grace Kelly style. Betty is the one who gets her alpha male early, without years of struggle, but when the dream turns sour, Joan is the one who has resources -- but still has to sleep with Jaguar.

Anyways, seeing Peggy navigate romance while marked, by the show, as being not-hot is one of the more interesting parts of Mad Men. I just wish more of her romantic partners weren't so incredibly obnoxious and there just to Make A Point.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:01 PM on May 6, 2013 [14 favorites]


Yeah but so what? The comparisons started with how these women go about getting what they want in life, not if they wear the right clothes or listen to the right music for their generation.

Sorry, I didn't actually see the genesis of this little thread (the P.S. I think Megan represents a different generation, so apples & oranges.) until you pointed it out just now, I was just responding to how Peggy & Megan's actual ages and their culturally representative ages are different animals. Disregard, I guess.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:07 PM on May 6, 2013


Peggy was born 36 years old anyway.
posted by The Whelk at 2:09 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


She is what she's made to be. But she's also an individual. At what point does her bad behavior become her responsibility? Where do we draw the line between "victim of a fucked up society" and "asshole?"

The same question holds true for most of the show's characters, and viewers' varying sympathies for individual characters is fascinating.

Think about how sympathetically some viewers view Don Draper, based largely on his charm and with. He's smart and talented and quick on his feet. But he's also abusive and imperious and irresponsible.

Think about some of the things he's done. Quite aside from his desertion and imposture, Don has:

- ejected clients and torpedoed the business without a prior word to his colleagues and partners
- cheated on his wives while shaming them for any display of flirtation
- deserted his daughter at her seventh birthday party (and presumably stole that lovely dog from some family --- where does a drunk guy get a dog after dark in the suburbs, anyhow?)
- left a lover tied to a bed in a beach house (I still haven't figured out if Bobbie Barrett could have wiggled out of those bonds before her daughter or son ---- or, worse, her furious husband --- found her)
- tried to persuade a lover to pick up and leave with him to start a new life elsewhere (abandoning his children, as Rachel points out)
- deserted his wife and children without a word while he jetted off to California
- fired his art director for refusing to sexually service a client
- threw a crumpled wad of bills in his copy-writer's face --- in front of her underlings! --- to shut up her very reasonable complaint that he was handing off the exciting outcome of her successful pitch in the clinch to another already-busy writer
- showed up drunk to a longtime colleague's mother's memorial service and vomited in the middle of the eulogy. Judging by their talk after the Hawaii pitch, Don didn't apologize or acknowledge this until Roger brought it up directly, because THIS NEVER HAPPENED
- called his new wife a whore for performing a fairly tame love scene that anyone would have known was an inevitable event if she was even remotely successful in her chosen career - meanwhile, he's banging the neighbor that they socialize with the most
- and most recently, he undercut the partners (who had just told him how damaging it is for him to unilaterally and fundamentally alter the nature of their agency on a whim) by making a barside handshake agreement with their direct competitor

Now, those appalling things (which are just a fraction of the appalling things Don Draper has done) make sense, both dramatically and psychologically. We see that Dick Whitman was raised without affection (except, apparently, from his younger brother) and with resentment, reminded over and over that he was "a whore-child." He grew up in grinding poverty with undemonstrative parents, so he has no good childhood model for affection or love. Then just as his own sexuality started to blossom, he moved to a brothel, which would shape a boy's understanding of sexual connection dramatically. He probably suffers from PTSD from the explosion and aftermath in Korea, and he appears to have a panic disorder that predisposes him to flight from conflict.

But yes, there is a point where we have to ask ourselves exactly what you ask about Betty: At what point does [his] bad behavior become [his] responsibility? Where do we draw the line between "victim of a fucked up [youth]" and "asshole?"

In my view, even considering the challenges of his background and personal history, Don Draper is, to use some of your terms, both a victim of his fucked-up history and an asshole.

But. He's Don Draper. He's a character created to have tremendous inner resources and talent and put into a setting where he has many possible avenues of success not available to Betty, so he's active and filled with agency --- elements that engage an audience and drive a narrative --- which predisposes us to sympathize with him even though he's appallingly badly behaved.

He even wins our affections over many of the other men because he's so damned charming and talented. Look at Pete Campbell. He's a weasel, he handles people clumsily, he's entitled and smug even when he fails. But he's often right on the money, especially about business. But he's so danged unpleasant --- and the show is making a real effort to make the handsome young Vincent Kartheiser look weedy and sad --- that most viewers resist identifying with him too completely.

An aside: I LOVED the part of S4 when Don shifts from drinking heavily to swimming in drink. You can practically smell him: stale cigarettes and old rye and flop sweat and occasionally the stinging high note of vomit. It also seemed like an incidental rebuke to the subset of viewers who had identified with the more glamorous aspects of the character and ignored what a mess --- and what cruel person --- Don can be. I had started to loathe Don as much as a empathized with him, and seeing that destructive nature inevitably turn inward made perfect dramatic sense to me.
posted by Elsa at 2:12 PM on May 6, 2013 [26 favorites]


GODDAMMIT I HAVE WORK TO DO, WILL YOU ALL PLEASE STOP BEING SO INSIGHTFUL AND INTERESTING.

Anyway, to address something that has cropped up a few times in this thread: I don't think anyone here believes that Betty is a good person.

I certainly don't. I understand her bad behavior, and I'm fascinated by it (and by what it divulges about her character). But I am certainly not excusing the bad things she has done.
posted by ErikaB at 2:13 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


The thing that gets me when I try to talk to people in the reals about the show is that they get all BUT BETTY IS A BAD MOTHER when I try to talk about how I find her really interesting and dimensional and well played and a product of her times and also a really good depiction of a person suffering from chronic major depression, all of which makes her unpleasant a lot of the time but also much like the other characters. I mean, that's like supposed to shut the whole discussion down. It's kind of tedious to me. I'm like, so what? And then it's like SWEETKID DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BAD PARENTING BECAUSE BETTY IS A BAD MOTHER. Like, personal.

I do think Betty tries to be a good mother, at least she did in the first few seasons (the scene with her worrying Sally would get a scar and not marry and that's a fate worse than death actually shows her sort of warped way of feeling love and concern for her daughter). But more than that I don't think Mad Men is a show where you hate on the villains and cheer the heroes and I don't think those bright lines are really there. It's what makes the show interesting for me and frustrating when otherwise intelligent people are all BUT BUT BAD MOTHER.
posted by sweetkid at 2:20 PM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


I certainly don't. I understand her bad behavior, and I'm fascinated by it (and by what it divulges about her character). But I am certainly not excusing the bad things she has done.

Yes! It makes perfect sense to me, in a truly horrible way, that someone with so few avenues for success and such cruel (and necessarily time-limited) expectations of perfection heaped upon her would be cruel and frustrated and bubbling with sublimated rage, and that she would exercise her rage on only the most powerless people around her. I don't like her, but I sympathize with her predicament and her anger, even as I wince at how she's expressed it.
posted by Elsa at 2:20 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


BUT BETTY IS A BAD MOTHER

Which is ironic, of course, because she's a far better mother than Don is a father.

Peggy would tear Megan into shreds.

I'll take that bet any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It's hard not to think about Betty, Joan and Peggy as three contrasting characters who choose different means of getting ahead. Peggy walks up the door and opens it, shoving the doorman aside if necessary; Joan sleeps with the doorman so he'll do whatever she wants; Betty marries the guy who tips the doorman.

So where does that put Megan?


Megan is all 3. She is the antichrist, and I love her.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:24 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


Peggy would tear Megan into shreds.

I'll take that bet any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Point: Peggy slept with Pete and didn't burst into flames.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:27 PM on May 6, 2013


How is Megan the antichrist? I feel like that is giving her too much credit.
posted by sweetkid at 2:27 PM on May 6, 2013


I think that hostility the author mentions is mirrored in the (to me) inexplicable hostility for Megan.

Wow, to me this is completely obvious and easy to understand. Betty hates Megan because Megan is young Betty, but with more options, and it isn't fair.

Berry did everything right by the standards of the day: she was the perfect, pretty wife and the consummate hostess for her businessman husband.

Sure, she is a terrible mother by our standards, agreed, but she was just raising her daughter the way she was raised (what if Betty had been blessed with Megan's sophisticated, confident Mother?). I think she saw their son as Don's responsibility to raise, and he was never there. She did seem to honestly love baby Glenn, to the pointof annoying the other children--maybe her nurturing gene is there, but wears off once the kids are no longer at that 'cute' stage?

When Betty was hurting over her Mother's death, Don ignored her or treated her like a petulant child rather than appreciating her. He even had her therapist report to him.

And Betty could have reinvented herself, and she actually tried to--she tried going back into modeling, and they loved her, but jealous, insecure Don deliberately sabotaged her, without her knowing it, so that she felt like a personal failure, with that option closed to her.

Now here comes Megan, Don's new young, beautiful wife, and somehow she's managed to lock down a glamourous career too! She even gets public acclamation for her work, when she is supposed to be staying at hime raising babies. As far as Betty can see, Don lets Megan do whatever she wants, while she had to give up her dreams when they were married, and he cheatedmon her the whole time.

What really has to hurt Betty is that no one even shames Megan for being the second wife. Yes, Betty left Don, but to her, Megan and her type are Homewreckers, like Roger's new young wife was. They take away the first wife's rightful place, and leave her out in the cold with the kids, while they reap the material rewards.

All that nonsense about the neighborhood divorcee was not really concern over property values, by the way, but the wives feeling threatened by a woman who went against societal norms so blatantly. They had good reason to feel threatened, too, because they had so little agency in their own lives. The public shaming of the 'Homewrecker' and the 'Other Woman' was the only defense they had against their own husbands trading them in for newer models; no one wants to be that socially stigmatized other woman, which is why Betty only leaves Don when she has a new husband, with the same social standing, prepared to take her on.

And yes, January Jones is a terrible actress! I'm sorry, but I don't hate her because she's beautiful or a buzzkill for Don, I'm frustrated because she's so bad the writers have to work extra hard just to make her seem like a real person instead of some pretty cardboard cutout. They give her a cancer scare and obvious weight issues (which they do with a fat suit) because she is not skilled enough to show us how beaten down she is by failing with Don.

Betty could be so much better a character, though, if they hadn't turned her into the Bitter Shrew. It's a shame they couldn't find a better actress instead. I, too, wish they had written her out.

Watch January Jones in XMen First Class, or that Liam Neeson movie, Unknown. She looks absolutely gorgeous--I've always thought January Jones was beautiful--but she says all her lines as if she's reporting the weather. Even when she is supposed to be sexily flirtatious, she flubs the delivery, but it doesn't matter because she is so pretty! Bleah.

In that dreadful SNL episode, January Jones was actually dating the guy from SNL and still sucked in her scenes. She can't even get sexual chemistry right when she's actually experiencing it!

Clearly the staff picked up on her bad acting, too, because they built skits around it. She didn't even seem to realize one skit was conspicuously poking fun at her lack of depth: she and her date are staring up at the clouds, and every jibe is a comment akin to, "Good thing you're so easy on the eyes, since you have nothing else of any value to offer."
posted by misha at 2:29 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


I thought the comment was about audiences' hostility toward Megan.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:32 PM on May 6, 2013 [6 favorites]


And yes, January Jones is a terrible actress! I'm sorry, but I don't hate her because she's beautiful or a buzzkill for Don, I'm frustrated because she's so bad the writers have to work extra hard just to make her seem like a real person instead of some pretty cardboard cutout. They give her a cancer scare and obvious weight issues (which they do with a fat suit) because she is not skilled enough to show us how beaten down she is by failing with Don.

This is arguable. I think she's great as Betty. Also, the writers having to work extra hard just isn't true, it's just something invented by people who don't like January's acting.
posted by sweetkid at 2:32 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


(what if Betty had been blessed with Megan's sophisticated, confident Mother?)

I don't think Megan sees her mother as a blessing. And I think Marie and Betty's mom would probably agree on a lot of things. Betty's mom would be more WASP about her cutting remarks is all.
posted by sweetkid at 2:34 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


The thing that gets me when I try to talk to people in the reals about the show is that they get all BUT BETTY IS A BAD MOTHER when I try to talk about how I find her really interesting and dimensional and well played and a product of her times and also a really good depiction of a person suffering from chronic major depression, all of which makes her unpleasant a lot of the time but also much like the other characters.

Huh. I really have not seen this conflict that you're describing. Betty being a bad mother doesn't negate any of those things, and I don't think anyone's saying that it does.

My complaint is that, up until Season 3, Betty was a more-or-less neutral mother. Not the most progressive or attentive, but you could easily write off her failings as "a product of her times". In Season 3, she actively becomes a Bad Mother, and it makes her a lot less sympathetic. The change in character arc annoyed me, because up until that point I thought she was a lot more nuanced. Once she starts doing things like smacking around her daughter, it's a lot easier to see her as a villain. I hoped it would be a momentary change -- perhaps brought on by stress from the divorce -- but her mothering skills have continued to decline. Even the recent "moment of sweetness" where she tries to chase down the teenage runaway is tainted. I mean, she basically just gives up on finding the girl, and then we never find up what happens to her! How totally half-assed.
posted by Afroblanco at 2:36 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Huh. I really have not seen this conflict that you're describing. Betty being a bad mother doesn't negate any of those things, and I don't think anyone's saying that it does.

I'm not talking about the thread, I'm talking about real life (though we did have some BUT BAD MOTHER in the thread, but only a little).

Sorry, "in the reals" is sweetkid lingo for real life, I guess.
posted by sweetkid at 2:39 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Remember the scene early on in S1, when Peggy tries to hit on Don? And he just shuts her down cold?

I keep thinking about this. I think about how, last season, Peggy was really excited when she thought Abe was going to propose. And this season, she got all verklempt when he suggested wanting babies with her--to the extent that she agreed to live in a terrible apartment in a terrible neighborhood, something that is actually the last thing she wanted.

We've all been assuming that Peggy didn't really want Don. That she didn't really want her baby. What if that's not true? What if she would have been happy with another life--with, say, Betty's life--but that those doors have been closed for her because of lack of physical attractiveness and the fact that she's really gifted at a job that rarely goes to women? So much of what she wants seems to be traditional. Joan convinced her she wanted to shack up--that it was so very modern, so very Peggy. But maybe all she ever wanted was to sleep with her attractive boss, to have a secure home and a marriage and babies.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:40 PM on May 6, 2013 [12 favorites]



We've all been assuming that Peggy didn't really want Don. That she didn't really want her baby. What if that's not true? What if she would have been happy with another life--with, say, Betty's life--but that those doors have been closed for her because of lack of physical attractiveness and the fact that she's really gifted at a job that rarely goes to women? So much of what she wants seems to be traditional.


Ummm. This is really smart and not something I had considered.
posted by sweetkid at 2:43 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


They give her a cancer scare and obvious weight issues (which they do with a fat suit) because she is not skilled enough to show us how beaten down she is by failing with Don.

Weiner put her in a fat suit because Jones got pregnant.

Jones might not be good at playing a variety of different characters, and from the SNL skits, she doesn't have Jon Hamm's sense of comedic timing, but whether she is good at playing Emma Frost or doing short skits in front of a live audience has nothing to do with whether she portrays a convincing, effective Betty. Like, seriously, I'd love to see some specific discussion of moments when people didn't like her acting as Betty or hard cites to people saying, "Well, we were going to do the scene X, but JJ sucks, so we had to do Y."

For my money, Jones kills it as a woman who is struggling against everything she has been told by society and upbringing without even realizing it.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:43 PM on May 6, 2013 [14 favorites]


For my money, Jones kills it as a woman who is struggling against everything she has been told by society and upbringing without even realizing it.

Agreed. I think her performances lately have been as nuanced and as skillful as Moss'.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:47 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


"Well, we were going to do the scene X, but JJ sucks, so we had to do Y."

yeah, it doesn't exist. Weiner loves her, and also see this interview which shows how much insight January has on her character. I really don't think there's a scenario in which the writers think she is a bad actress and that's influenced the show. As said earlier, they would have replaced her. She's beautiful but so are many actresses in Hollywood. They wanted her.

Also, if they thought she was bad, why would giving her a cancer scare be easier on her terrible acting skills? That's more emotions, more character development, a whole different experience for the character. It's in no way "easier."
posted by sweetkid at 2:47 PM on May 6, 2013 [7 favorites]


Joan isn't the person who sleeps with the doorman so he'll do whatever she wants, she's the person who sleeps with the doorman because he won't let her in the building otherwise, and when she does he calls her a whore.

Absolutely true, but that combines the choice with the consequences. I think the archetypes I listed are about the genesis of the characters. The characters are obviously fully fleshed out now. And yes, "choice" means something like "strategy, given the options".

I don't think Megan fits so easily into this little matrix because she came along afterwards, when the characters had exceeded their premises.
posted by fatbird at 2:48 PM on May 6, 2013


I also had a tough time with Peggy, after the whole baby-demial season, because I had trouble emphasizing with her character, but because she's a good actress, now I think I get where the writers are going with her.

The other women in the show rely on defined gender roles (Betty), or (in Trudy's case) social cache and money, or ruthless capability hidden underneath a traditionally feminine, and thus not as threatening, veneer (Joan and Megan) to get ahead.

But Peggy is basically One of the Guys. She doesn't flirt. She's direct. She has sex with no strings attached sometimes, just because she wants to and she enjoys the rush. She never even told Pete about the baby until months later, because it didn't fit into her 5 year career plan. She dresses for success, she networks. She's the Boss now.

Peggy even sucks at 'womenly' pursuits: she can't handle a baby, and doesn't know how to build up her copywriters with positive ego strokes or how to soothe them when they've screwed up.

Peggy, not Abe, is the 'husband' in their relationship. She's the breadwinner and the decision maker (and Abe, being the 'wife', sucks with power tools).
posted by misha at 2:50 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


What I don't get is --- the guy playing Pete is just the same level of limited acting as Jones, but people agree that he's very good at playing a very specific type of character very well, despite those limiations. But where Kartheiser is seen to have worth in the narrative despite his broader limitation as an actor outside of this specific role, Jones is pilloried for it.
posted by destronomics at 2:54 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


the guy playing Pete is just the same level of limited acting as Jones

Is he? I haven't seen him in anything else but haven't really heard this. Hasn't he been doing some theater off season?

He's great as Pete. I think January is perfect as Betty but can see how she wouldn't be as good elsewhere, but I think Kartheiser is a solid actor. He brings a lot to that character.
posted by sweetkid at 2:56 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


The thing that gets me when I try to talk to people in the reals about the show is that they get all BUT BETTY IS A BAD MOTHER when I try to talk about how I find her really interesting and dimensional and well played and a product of her times and also a really good depiction of a person suffering from chronic major depression, all of which makes her unpleasant a lot of the time but also much like the other characters.

I've seen a lot of that in in-person and online discussions, too, and in the first few seasons, it really opened my eyes to how mothers are portrayed in much of TV and film: that just being a not-great, not-delighted, not-unconditionally-loving mother is enough to define a character and prevent further discussion of her feelings or motivations or characteristics.

When I engage the BUT BAD MOTHER SO BAD THE END people in a discussion of Don's parenting, which is at best inconsistent and at worst riddled with inexplicable disappearances, they often say "But he loves those kids! He's so cute with them!"

And it's true, he really can be cute with them when he bothers to show up. (A playful "You need a shave," as deployed by Don to itty bitty Sally in response to her "Daddy! You need a shave!," is a frequent affectionate remark in our household.) But that's the thing: it's easier to be sweet and cute and playful when you are only showing up when it suits your whims, when you can stretch out a late evening at the office or an overnight with your bohemian girlfriend or a few weeks in California at the snap of your fingers, when you can count on your spouse to put the kids to bed and feed them three square meals while you think about just cutting and running and resuming life under another name.

It's true that Betty's parenting is often harsh and even cruel. But Don isn't even there a lot of the time, and when he is there, they can't count on him to stay or to be there next time.
posted by Elsa at 2:58 PM on May 6, 2013 [9 favorites]


(A playful You need a shave," as deployed by Don to itty bitty Sally in response to her "Daddy! You need a shave!," is a frequent affectionate remark in our household.)

Omigod do you live in my house
posted by shakespeherian at 3:00 PM on May 6, 2013


YOU NEED A SHAVE!
posted by Elsa at 3:01 PM on May 6, 2013


I've seen a lot of that in in-person and online discussions, too, and in the first few seasons, it really opened my eyes to how mothers are portrayed in much of TV and film: that just being a not-great, not-delighted, not-unconditionally-loving mother is enough to define a character and prevent further discussion of her feelings or motivations or characteristics.

ugh, so much word to this. I was just talking about this with someone over the weekend and he said the BUT BAD MOTHER bit and honestly looked astonished that I wanted to keep talking.
posted by sweetkid at 3:01 PM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


@sweetkid

He was pretty awful in Angel, but again, notice the framing here. "He's good as Pete, he brings a lot to the character." While Jones' talent at bringing Betty to life is seen as something besides the point, something she has no active hand in bringing to the screen, she just is. Vincent is active in his talent, even if limited, but Jones is passive in her talent, like she somehow doesn't put in the work to bring her to life.

It's just. Really frustrating to see it framed that way.
posted by destronomics at 3:07 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


While Jones' talent at bringing Betty to life is seen as something besides the point, something she has no active hand in bringing to the screen, she just is.

I don't agree with this as all, and it isn't what I was saying. I've posted like five fairly passionate defenses of January's acting in this thread. I also posted an interview with January and said she had great insight into her character.

So.

"January is great as Betty, she brings a lot to the character."

Specifically, I think she does a lot of small things with her face, even when she isn't speaking. This is something that I think is hindered by the fat suit and I'd love to see her rid of it.
posted by sweetkid at 3:11 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't agree with this as all, and it isn't what I was saying. I've posted like five fairly passionate defenses of January's acting in this thread. I also posted an interview with January and said she had great insight into her character.

Sorry about that, a bit new to Metafilter, I didn't read as thoroughly as I should have. My mistake.

I will say I was sparking (even though you didn't mean it at all) to an overall thread I've seen in discussions of Betty's character elsewhere, if that makes any sense? That Jones is good as Betty, find, "but she's not really doing anything." Where the same sort of approach isn't used when talking about male, essentially, character actors. Does that make any sense?
posted by destronomics at 3:13 PM on May 6, 2013


Specifically, I think she does a lot of small things with her face, even when she isn't speaking.

The scene at the Ossinging house when Betty realizes she's kinda responsible for Don meeting Megan, her face did this amazing bit of micro-acting as you saw shock, anger, panic, shock again, etc play out on her "trying very hard to remain calm" expression
posted by The Whelk at 3:16 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


I know I'm late to say it, but Walter Jr. is an absolutely critical character in Breaking Bad.

Jr.'s disability, and likely dependence into adulthood, was the central motivation for Walter Sr. to "break bad" when first diagnosed with cancer. As Skyler and Jesse become to varying extents antagonists or burdens on Walter Sr., whom he must deceive and betray almost as if they were rival drug dealers, Walt Jr. remains alone as someone whom Walt Sr. can see himself as loving and caring for. (The baby is just a narrative non-entity...)

I have great hopes that Gilligan will do in his final season what Chase would not do in the final season of The Sopranos: create a real culminating crisis for Morally Compromised Dad Who Likes to Tell Himself It's All for the Children.
posted by MattD at 3:21 PM on May 6, 2013


Walt Jr. remains alone as someone whom Walt Sr. can see himself as loving and caring for.

That's what gets me -- I think the fact that Walt named his son after himself, and his son turned out to be crippled is a huge, huge, huge flashing sign Gilligan planted for the viewer in the very first episode that no matter what Walter tells himself or his family, it's not actually for anyone other than Walter White. He named his own kid after himself, the guy has wanted glory long before he thought he was going to die, or that he couldn't provide for his family. It was always been and always will be about his ego, no matter the excuses he tells himself or us.
posted by destronomics at 3:25 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Bellman: "Thought this was going to be about Archie. Too bad."

I thought this was going to be about Betty White.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:27 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Everyone is on Betty White's side. Rightfully so.
posted by mstokes650 at 3:28 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think that Vincent Kartheiser has a very mannered way of speaking, which doesn't seem to sync up with how the rest of the cast speaks. I don't know if he's a bad actor or not, but I always notice that he seems to be in a different show. Then again, I love (by which I mean, hate) his character so much that I don't care.

I think January Jones does a fine job as Betty. It's possible that a better actress could do more, but she does what's needed and that's enough (it's not like there aren't enough other people around who are acting the hell out of their parts). It's also possible that she doesn't have any range and can only play this character. That's okay. There are plenty of good (and even great) actors and actresses who don't have much range.

The two real stand-outs to me are the actress who plays Sally and Christina Hendricks. The former because, hey, child actor with a minor part turns out to be good and the creators notice and give her stuff to do. The latter because she could easily have been nothing more than the office manager with large breasts (e.g. Loni Anderson in WKRP), but it turns out that she can actually do stuff.

Everyone else is great too, but these two are the big surprise for me.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:33 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


We've all been assuming that Peggy didn't really want Don. That she didn't really want her baby. What if that's not true? What if she would have been happy with another life--with, say, Betty's life--but that those doors have been closed for her because of lack of physical attractiveness and the fact that she's really gifted at a job that rarely goes to women? So much of what she wants seems to be traditional.

I wonder how much of that is tension between competing desires, or tension between what she actually wants, what she has always been told she wants, and what society expects her to want.

Peggy want to be successful, which leaves the question: what does "successful" mean? Does it mean romancing her boss, as Joan insinuates in the pilot as she shows Peggy around? Does it mean being an efficient and helpful secretary and possibly rising to Joan's modest success? Does it mean snagging a husband and (again, as Joan insinuates in that introductory scene) a house in the suburbs to maintain? Does it mean breaking barriers and becoming a success in a male-dominated field?

Is "success" for Peggy a combination of those things? Or is her dilemma the one that Dr. Faye states so succinctly: "In a nutshell, it all comes down to what I want versus what is expected of me."

Early on, the show displays how different Peggy's feelings are from the secretaries around her. When she and Joan go to the ladies' room together, Peggy is disconcerted to see a woman crying at the sink. Later, crushed in romance herself, Peggy goes into the ladies' room to weep at the sink, but instead pulls herself together and walks out again. When we finally do see her go sob in the ladies' room, it's not directly about a man (though her break-up with Mark probably contributes to it) but after a fight with Don about their work relationship.

Duck describes her flatteringly as "a freewheeling career gal with great ideas. Now is your time." Even before that, while she's still unwittingly pregnant, Peggy exaggerates her own career and worldliness and inter-office social life to her blind date, talking about her potato chip account and her friend Joan who always orders brandy Alexanders. She wants to be seen as a freewheeling career gal. Is that because she wants to impress him with her acumen, because she wants to see herself that way, or --- heartbreaking if true --- because she knows she won't dazzle him with her looks and charm, so she wants to dazzle him with her success?

But as successful as Peggy appears to be now that she's out from under Don's heel, that success comes at a price. If she does want a family and a pleasant, comfortable home, how can she do that without damaging her career?

When Peggy and Abe decided to shack up, I was initially really happy for them, in part because if she does want a traditional home and kids, Abe might be able to shed his traditional gender role and stay home with the kids while she brought home the paycheck. (But only if he's come a long way baby since he scoffed at Peggy's complaint that she suffered obvious discrimination at work. "Ooookay, Peggy, we'll have a civil rights march for women," hahahahaha SHUT UP, ABE.)
posted by Elsa at 3:50 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think you all are overthinking Peggy. She started out the show fresh out of secretarial school, trying to find a place for herself in this scary, chaotic environment. Think of the visual language in all the Peggy scenes in the early seasons. It's all designed to make Peggy appear small, nervous and vulnerable. Her main motivation is not to blaze a new trail for women, her motivation is to get the hell out of her mother's house and away from her stifling religious/cultural influence. ("If you want company, get a cat. When that cat dies, you get another one.") I think what she eventually finds is that the system is stacked against her, but she's not willing to play along. And then comes all the trailblazing stuff. But really, she starts out the show as this quiet, mousy Catholic girl from Brooklyn who desperately wants to carve out a life for herself.
posted by Afroblanco at 4:02 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think that Vincent Kartheiser has a very mannered way of speaking, which doesn't seem to sync up with how the rest of the cast speaks. I don't know if he's a bad actor or not, but I always notice that he seems to be in a different show.

His character is very old New York money -- he's related to the Dutch that settled New York. He has a clipped, mannered prep school accent. You don't hear the much anymore, but they were once important signifiers of class.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:04 PM on May 6, 2013 [14 favorites]


I don't think anyone here believes that Betty is a good person.

I do. Well, I don't believe she's a bad person, no more so than any other character on the show.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:04 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


But really, she starts out the show as this quiet, mousy Catholic girl from Brooklyn who desperately wants to carve out a life for herself.

What I love about this show is there are quite a few characters that would unreconizable to thier season one selves ( except for you Don, duh.)
posted by The Whelk at 4:07 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


His character is very old New York money -- he's related to the Dutch that settled New York. He has a clipped, mannered prep school accent. You don't hear the much anymore, but they were once important signifiers of class.

Absolutely, I know several men who could have been Pete's schoolmates, and his delivery rings very true.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:09 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I can't help wondering how much of the criticism leveled at January Jones and Vincent Kartheiser is rooted in some way in how unsympathetic their characters are. There is extraordinary acting talent on that show, and I cannot imagine Wiener keeping anyone on for six seasons if he wasn't pleased with their work. I'm not saying that Jones and Kartheiser are extraordinary (I'll save that for Kiernan Shipka) but I think all of them range from fine to great.

Also, both Betty and Pete are coming from very classist, WASPy rigid upbringings that profoundly impacted their identities. People may be seeing stiffness and attributing it to the actor rather than the character.
posted by ambrosia at 4:16 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


His character is very old New York money -- he's related to the Dutch that settled New York. He has a clipped, mannered prep school accent. You don't hear the much anymore, but they were once important signifiers of class.

I wondered about this. Pete sounds a great deal like my late father at his stodgiest. Dad had a similar family background: a once-moneyed New York City family (though nowhere near as as old-money or rich or socially elevated as the Dyckmans) that still placed importance on class and family connections and on the many ways one can convey that through voice and vocabulary.

Dad's speech was considerably and self-consciously looser and more casual most of the time, and he wasn't... y'know, a weaselly twerp... but at times I'm struck by how similar they sound, right down to expressions from their father's generations. ("OH HELLS BELLS, five-year-old Elsa, what did you spill now?")

What I love about this show is there are quite a few characters that would unreconizable to thier season one selves ( except for you Don, duh.)

I think the show really has a handle on how much people change and, conversely, how rare and difficult it is to change our fundamental approaches and mechanisms for getting through life. It's also great at shifting our perspective so that we see new aspects of people, or see old aspects more revealingly.

Last night when Ted Chaough focused only on his partner's health and brushed away Gleason's worries about Ted's investment, I turned to The Fella and said, "It always amazes me how the show sets me up to HATE a character, then a few seasons later makes me love him instead* without ever making their previous behavior inconsistent."

For example, I originally thought Ted was smarmy and opportunistic, full of empty promises. (When he tries to seduce Pete away at the maternity ward, he dangles the Alfa Romeo account in front of him. Pete counters, "I don't drive." Ted warmly assures him "I'll teach you!" I thought Ted was blowing smoke. Now I think he probably meant it sincerely.

I'm knocked out by how much I like the same guy I used to despise, and for the same reasons; it's just that I can see them more clearly now, and not through the lens of Don's natural mistrust. Ted treats Peggy with respect and affection, compliments her work openly, isn't afraid to say how much he likes and needs her in the office and pays her handsomely. My visceral hope is that she doesn't sleep with him, but I can't figure out why --- maybe I just like Abe as a character and don't want to risk her losing him.

*And vice versa. I'm lookin' at you, Harry Crane.
posted by Elsa at 4:23 PM on May 6, 2013 [10 favorites]


Why are we assuming that just because Peggy isn't pretty enough for Don, and because her attempt to hit on Don (which was obviously only done because she was led to believe it was expected of her) fell flat, that she couldn't have made a different choice and done the wife and mom thing?

I mean, she had a (pathetic) dude who wanted to marry her in Season 4. If she really wanted marriage and a baby, that guy would have been perfectly OK.

Back in Season 1 before she put on weight (like you do, when you're pregnant), she turned a few heads. She could have gotten with either Paul or Ken easy, and again, being with someone like that would have been the goal for a smart girl from a working class outer borough background. You don't want to romance your direct supervisor, you want to shoot for one of the nice up-and-coming guys around your age who you don't report to directly. Even as late as the episode where she smokes weed with Paul, she could have gone off in more of a Megan direction, saying "I want to be a copywriter like you!" but meaning "I want to be whatever you think is cool so I can be with you!"

But time and time again Peggy shows that she wants more than that. Otherwise she wouldn't be doing what she's doing. A little of it is self sabotage, and the difference between what a character wants and what a character needs -- maybe Peggy wants marriage and children, but what she needs is to find herself -- but one of the premises of the show is that Peggy is different from other women, and wants more, or different, or something. The "basket of kisses" scene wouldn't make any sense otherwise.
posted by Sara C. at 4:28 PM on May 6, 2013


I'm now struck with the desire to rewrite a version of the traditional folk song Pretty Peggy-O to be about Peggy Olson.

Also there is a dire lack of quality Man Men/True Blood fic out there. For shame.
posted by The Whelk at 4:40 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


Re Pete's speech, I also think the show has to carefully ration old timey dialogue. You want the characters to be relatable (and understood!), but you also want to make it feel realistic and remind viewers that it's a different time. My guess is that they incorporated a certain antiquated tone into the voice of specific characters. I'm not sure if they chose characters whose background makes them more likely to use such constructions, or if certain actors were better at delivering the antiquated dialogue.

It also might have to do with the characters, too. Pete was the series first antagonist. It makes sense to put the weird old fashioned expressions in his mouth, but have Don and Peggy -- who the audience is supposed to identify with -- sound more accessible.
posted by Sara C. at 4:50 PM on May 6, 2013


My visceral hope is that she doesn't sleep with him, but I can't figure out why

I share this hope, and I think it's because even though he is Nice and Strong, he is also Very Married. And her boss. Peggy does not need the drama of a fling with her married boss at this stage in her career. She might have done it in Season One, with her clumsy pass at Don that seems like such ancient history now, but I would like to think that Season Six Peggy has learned a few things that Season One Peggy didn't know.
posted by ambrosia at 4:55 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


The reason I don't want them to sleep together is that the facts are thus:

She likes him. She's not just attracted to him. She doesn't just want him. She likes him.

He doesn't feel the same way. When they kissed, he was like, "oh uh nbd..."

If he were to sleep with her, there would be problems.

Personally, I'm hoping that our peek at the relationship between Ted and his art director/partner inspires Peggy and Stan to spin off into their own agency as the Chevy Vega goes down in flames circa 1973.

I will leave it to the shippers to decide whether they Fall In Luvvvvv in addition to that or what.
posted by Sara C. at 5:18 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Though I do think Peggy's desire to be with someone who appreciates her, who respects her as an equal, and who she has work in common with definitely points to Stan.
posted by Sara C. at 5:20 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


And yes, January Jones is a terrible actress! I'm sorry, but I don't hate her because she's beautiful or a buzzkill for Don, I'm frustrated because she's so bad the writers have to work extra hard just to make her seem like a real person instead of some pretty cardboard cutout. They give her a cancer scare and obvious weight issues (which they do with a fat suit) because she is not skilled enough to show us how beaten down she is by failing with Don.

I don't really agree.

First - (and I haven't been able to read the whole thread so apologies if this has been mentioned, but) the weight issues plot began because Jones was pregnant. They had a choice to go the "hide her stomach behind laundry baskets" route, or just write the weight into the story. True, it's a fat suit now, but it didn't start that way, and it wasn't a cover for her acting. (I'm just saying I think claiming the fat suit is somehow supposed to be a compensation for her acting is unfair.)

Now, about her acting. I'm not gonna say she's gonna win awards or anything, but I like her in this. She falls into a category of actors that I always feel confused by the reactions to. I feel like somehow I'm getting something from her performance that I guess others aren't, which is, I sense that there are things beneath her surface. Sure, her mannerisms on the show have a chill and a distance to them, a certain flatness to audible tone - but that's entirely appropriate and correct for the character to my mind. Betty is a character that bottles stuff up and lets it simmer inside while she puts on the perfect face for the public. Many of the "OMG she's a horrible actress" comments I've seen make me think that for whatever reason, other viewers aren't sensing her inner life the way I am. I've had this same thing with Keanu Reeves - he often gets slagged as a terrible actor, but to me, he's actually very good at playing the kinds of guys who do have deep inner emotions, they just lack the ability to express them well.

So, is this just some willingness on my part to fill in the blanks for them? I dunno, I suppose it could be. Or perhaps I'm just somehow tuning into different wavelengths in their performances.
posted by dnash at 5:20 PM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


Remember folks: There is no "I" in Team Steggy.
There is, however, meat.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:25 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


From Salon, The Julie Taylor Test . . .

Enter the Julie Taylor Test, an easy way to identify bad TV acting: Ask yourself, is it possible to imagine the inner life of this character? If no, is it possible to imagine the inner life of the characters surrounding him or her? It was all too possible to imagine the inner lives of every character on “Friday Night Lights” but Julie. Ditto every character on “Mad Men” but Betty.
posted by MoxieProxy at 5:52 PM on May 6, 2013


I can't help wondering how much of the criticism leveled at January Jones and Vincent Kartheiser is rooted in some way in how unsympathetic their characters are.

I actually love Pete, precisely because he's such a weasel. He's trying to be Don Draper and isn't very good at it.

The only character on the show I don't really like is Megan, and that's because I just don't think she's that interesting. Betty has layers. They are alternating layers of failure and bitterness, but that's still depth
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 5:55 PM on May 6, 2013


Enter the Julie Taylor Test, an easy way to identify bad TV acting: Ask yourself, is it possible to imagine the inner life of this character? If no, is it possible to imagine the inner life of the characters surrounding him or her? It was all too possible to imagine the inner lives of every character on “Friday Night Lights” but Julie. Ditto every character on “Mad Men” but Betty.

Yeah, I saw this, but I really disagree that you can't imagine Betty's inner life. I can imagine it all the time. She even talks about it. At length. One of the interesting things about the show and its reception is that no one listens to Betty. Not within the world of the show, and not within much of the audience. She explains herself fairly often, or at least within the first few seasons of the show. But no one listens.
posted by sweetkid at 5:59 PM on May 6, 2013 [9 favorites]


Wait - you can't imagine Betty's inner life? That's down to a poverty of imagination, not a failure on Ms. Jones's part.
posted by Mister_A at 5:59 PM on May 6, 2013 [14 favorites]


Remember folks: There is no "I" in Team Steggy.
There is, however, meat.


And Peggy doesn't like vegetarian food. Reminds her of Lent.
posted by The Whelk at 5:59 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


sweetkid I am imagining your inner life brah.
posted by Mister_A at 6:00 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


yea I contain multitudes. It's a pain.
posted by sweetkid at 6:01 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I tried to contain a multitude but it resulted in a serious sprain.
posted by The Whelk at 6:03 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I tried to contain a multitude but it resulted in a serious sprain.

But you won the whore-off, and that's what counts!
posted by fatbird at 6:04 PM on May 6, 2013


Re Pete's speech, I also think the show has to carefully ration old timey dialogue.

I am from the other school of thought. At the time of the show, they would have taken Sally Draper to a speech therapist for her vocal fry, and I find it enormously distracting.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 6:06 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


If you want to really appreciate what January Jones is doing, watch her in X-Men: Babies before you go back to watching her as Betty Draper, so you can compare a 2D comic book performance to the 3D performance she brings to Betty Draper. She is positively oozing inner life.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:14 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


If January Jones wasn't up to the task of playing Betty, they would write her out of the show.

I don't know why people aren't clear about this.

Actors get let go all the time. Series regular roles get diminished for reasons of "the casting turned out to not be so great" or "people don't respond to this character" or "this actor isn't up to the job" all the time.

I could see there being contractual issues, but the reason actors' contracts are structured the way they are is so that, if there are problems right out of the gate (and "January really is not up to the demands of the role" is a right out of the gate problem) they can serve out their contract and then be put on a bus. The fact that this hasn't happened with Betty's character, despite the fact that her role is somewhat superfluous now, despite the fact that audiences hate her, is a testament to the fact that January Jones is pulling it off.
posted by Sara C. at 6:44 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


It takes some chops to make an audience really hate a character.
posted by Mister_A at 6:47 PM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I saw this, but I really disagree that you can't imagine Betty's inner life. I can imagine it all the time.

And in fact we've been talking about Betty's inner life as we imagine it --- as the show and Jones portray it for us to imagine and flesh out --- for a lot of this thread. Clearly some viewers can't imagine her inner life in any complexity, but that doesn't mean it isn't imaginable or that the actor isn't portraying it.

I mean, I had trouble imagining Dr. Faye's inner life, but that's partly because she appeared to be so frank and forthright that I didn't have to, and when she wasn't being apparently frank and forthright, the subtext was woven right into the scene's meaning, as in the Ponds' focus group with the agency's secretaries --- for example, when Faye reassured the SCDP secretaries that they could relax and speak freely and enjoy a break unscrutinized even though she knew that creative was watching, taping, and transcribing every word.

I initially thought January Jones was a very limited actor*, though I now think a great deal of that impression was my own failure to understand the lack of affect Betty is projecting. I don't really have an opinion on her acting outside of "Mad Men," since the few things I've seen her in didn't seem to be showcases for acting as much as for action. (Don't get me wrong: I love when an action movie also showcases great acting and I now many of them do; I just haven't seen January Jones in any great roles other than Betty Draper.)

For me, her work on "Mad Men" --- much of it very nuanced and moving indeed --- only suffers from comparison to her incredibly masterful co-stars, including Hamm, Moss, and Hendricks, who are doing some of the most delicate acting I've ever seen. (Oof, Joan's face when she was scolding Don: even her cheeks are gleaming with rage. She's incandescent. I don't know how she does that, but Christina Hendricks is a remarkable actor.)

*That impression was helped along by a hilariously lackluster performance in Unknown. [SPOILER FOR Unknown] In an ending scene, she's trying to break through a wall to disarm the bomb sealed behind it. She slams into it with a blunt object, fails to smash through the plaster, and glares peevishly --- like Betty Draper might look at a scuff on her shoe --- before, y'know, being reduced to a fine red mist by the explosion. A glance of slight annoyance is not the look I expect to see just before you get blown to a million pieces by your own bomb. But maybe that's just poor direction, or maybe my impression of that moment was shaped by my then-current assessment of January Jones as a terrible actor.
posted by Elsa at 6:52 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Enter the Julie Taylor Test, an easy way to identify bad TV acting: Ask yourself, is it possible to imagine the inner life of this character? If no, is it possible to imagine the inner life of the characters surrounding him or her?

I think this is maybe a good test of film acting, but is actually a remarkably poor test of TV acting, since the conventions of most TV genres require characters whose inner lives are impossible to imagine.

Though I think the reverse is definitely true. If you can imagine the inner life of a TV character, the actor playing that character is amazing. Though even then, I think TV is too collaborative a medium to consider that a definitive test.

Frankly, I think 99.99999999% of TV viewers don't know enough about how TV is made to presume to say which (successful, working) actors are talented.
posted by Sara C. at 6:52 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


her incredibly masterful co-stars, including Hamm, Moss, and Hendricks, who are doing some of the most delicate acting I've ever seen.

And yet they all have their moments of suck. Someone once pointed out to me how Jon Hamm makes the same facial expressions anytime he plays "Dick" as opposed to "Don", and now I can't unsee it. It's really hacky. But you know, he's so good as Don, and playing two sides of the same man is really fucking hard. So I'm willing to overlook seeing the seams occasionally in favor of how otherwise brilliant he is.

Also, Christina Hendricks was awful on Firefly. Which goes to show how hard it is to definitively state whether someone is a Bad Actor or what.

Ultimately, every actor is a Bad Actor until a part like Don Draper comes along.
posted by Sara C. at 7:00 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is Pete a bad actor? I don't know, I liked him well enough on his previous TV show...
posted by pxe2000 at 7:01 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also, Christina Hendricks was awful on Firefly. Which goes to show how hard it is to definitively state whether someone is a Bad Actor or what.

Whereas I liked her enough in "Firefly" to be really, really excited to see her show up on "Mad Men," which only illustrates that point again: not only can people not agree universally on who's a good or bad actor, but often people can't even agree on what constitutes a good or bad performance from a given actor.
posted by Elsa at 7:05 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yeah, Jon Hamm as Dick is pretty terrible. It's like he's saying in his head, "Young! Look young!" the whole time.

I think Christina Hendricks is kind of overhyped - sometimes I think she's not that good, but I realize I'm just reacting to the OMGAMAZINGJOAN haze everyone else seems to be in, and she is quite good on the show.
posted by sweetkid at 7:06 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I am from the other school of thought. At the time of the show, they would have taken Sally Draper to a speech therapist for her vocal fry, and I find it enormously distracting.

I'm not talking about historical accuracy. In fact I'm talking about the opposite. The viewers need to understand the characters, not get taken out of the story, sympathize with the right people, hate the right people, etc.

Sally needs to sound at least a little bit like obnoxious teenagers sound now, so that she grates on us in exactly the right obnoxious teenager way, but then also reminds us of when we were obnoxious teenagers.

It's the same reason that the counterculture characters are pretty light on the "Groovy, Baby" lingo as compared to how such people actually talked. Because otherwise we would find them intolerable and change the channel immediately.

You can't write a show like Mad Men entirely in period dialect. Nobody would watch it.
posted by Sara C. at 7:07 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


not only can people not agree universally on who's a good or bad actor, but often people can't even agree on what constitutes a good or bad performance from a given actor.

I agree with all this, I definitely think it's fine if people think JJ is a bad actor, I just disagree. It's just when people are all "even the poor WRITERS think she's bad and they wrote x storyline because she is SO BAD WHAT CAN THEY DO there is only one thin blonde actress in all of Hollywood after all that I kinda eyeroll.
posted by sweetkid at 7:08 PM on May 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


(ummmm sweetkid I think it might have been YOU who destroyed my vision of Jon Hamm's superior acting abilities, in fact.)
posted by Sara C. at 7:08 PM on May 6, 2013


yea when I saw you wrote about that I thought it might have been me Sara C.
posted by sweetkid at 7:09 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


At the time of the show, they would have taken Sally Draper to a speech therapist for her vocal fry, and I find it enormously distracting.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:06 PM on May 6 [+] [!]


I find this enormously fascinating, and I blame you for the fall down the rabbit-hole of speech therapy history that's soon to occur.
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:13 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's just when people are all "even the poor WRITERS think she's bad and they wrote x storyline because she is SO BAD WHAT CAN THEY DO there is only one thin blonde actress in all of Hollywood after all that I kinda eyeroll.

Oh, yes, I'm right there with you on that. I have no assessment of Jones as an actor in general since I've only seen her on MM and Unknown; I just know that Betty is a deeply unlikeable character who nonetheless cuts right to my heart and provides endless fodder for speculation about her inner life, which is a great deal for any performance to offer.
posted by Elsa at 7:14 PM on May 6, 2013


Ultimately, every actor is a Bad Actor until a part like Don Draper comes along

Yeah, support your local starving writers, people [drops change in cup.]
posted by sweetkid at 7:14 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


You can't write a show like Mad Men entirely in period dialect. Nobody would watch it.

I would. And, awful though it was, Passion of the Christ was actually performed in ancient Aramaic, and did just fine.

I understand that the period dialect takes you out of the show; for me, it's essential to the show working. These are, after all, realistic shows, and realism is based on convincing recreating the world of the show. Period details signify to me that we're watching a show from another era, and when shows get those details wrong, it takes me out of the scene, reminds me of the artificiality. (I'm not alone; people obsess over the period details of Mad Men, or, say, Downtown Abbey.)

It's probably a matter of preference, but it is important to recognize the difference between your own preference and what the audience, as a whole, needs.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:16 PM on May 6, 2013


At the time of the show, they would have taken Sally Draper to a speech therapist for her vocal fry, and I find it enormously distracting.

Not necessarily. I have a now 24-year-old niece who couldn't pronounce her Rs when she was a child (and whose first and last names both began with R, poor unlucky kid — I'm pretty sure that's at least partly why she was insisting we all call her Becky and not Rebecca by the time she was four), and she never got speech therapy because my brother and sister-in-law were told she would grow out of it. As she has.
posted by orange swan at 7:17 PM on May 6, 2013


Not necessarily.

Oh, sure, but it would have been seen as being a weird way of speaking back then, and I don't for a moment think Betty Draper would have let it go unmentioned.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:19 PM on May 6, 2013


. It's just when people are all "even the poor WRITERS think she's bad and they wrote x storyline because she is SO BAD WHAT CAN THEY DO there is only one thin blonde actress in all of Hollywood after all that I kinda eyeroll.

I learned my lesson with Anna Torv. "She's so wooden!" they said. "Can't emote, no presence!" they said. AND THEN RED UNIVERSE.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:20 PM on May 6, 2013 [6 favorites]


January Jones is a great actress. I really hope she can still get work after MM wraps.
posted by evil otto at 7:25 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Passion of the Christ was actually performed in ancient Aramaic, and did just fine.

Yes, but for a feature, you just have to get people to buy tickets. They don't even necessarily have to show up. Let alone actually like it. Let alone stay in the theater for the full two hours. Let alone come back.

For a TV series (especially a one-hour dramatic serial), you have to have a massive number of people come back every week to follow your characters. To do that, they need to understand your characters. And, ideally, you want to keep luring in new viewers after the first few episodes, so you need to make it so that someone flipping channels can see a few minutes of the show and get roughly who everyone is.

If Mad Men stuck strictly to period-accurate speech, not only would it be basically impossible to achieve*, and not only would nobody but pedants like us give a shit, but it would actively turn viewers off of the show. Which is a death sentence.

*You can't just give a 14 year old girl a bit of direction like "Less vocal fry please, Kiernan! OK, Take 96, I guess...."
posted by Sara C. at 7:25 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


All right. I don't agree, I don't experience television or entertainment like you do, and I have experience directing children, but you are certainly welcome to your opinion.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:29 PM on May 6, 2013


[SPOILERS for "Fringe," obviously]

I learned my lesson with Anna Torv. "She's so wooden!" they said. "Can't emote, no presence!" they said. AND THEN RED UNIVERSE.

That was such a bad moment for me. I had really been impressed with Olivia's calm, impassive demeanor, her resistance to breaking into broad socialized smiles at every small pleasantry, her flat, rugged shoes and sturdy jackets. It's so rare that we see any female character, even a law enforcement agent who runs around in taxing and dangerous situations, in practical clothing or eschewing girlish smiles and flirtations.

That really stung me. I loved Olivia's brusqueness, her simple unadorned competence, her resistance to traditionally indoctrinated feminine frills of behavior and gesture. I was smitten with the show from the get-go, largely because I loved seeing such a no-nonsense female lead.

And then, y'know, it was a long-con set-up so we could see the difference between her and Fauxlivia, between a girl who lost her mother at a young age and grew up stunted and smileless and a girl whose mother lived and taught her to be girlie. The show was suddenly telling me that this strong, tough woman I so admired and identified with was damaged in a way that a more playful, fluttery woman wasn't. I know the characterization is more complex than that, but that was my initial reading and it made me FURIOUS.
posted by Elsa at 7:30 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think the complaints about January Jones' acting skills are way off-base. For the first couple seasons, Betty was my favorite female character on the show. Much of my enjoyment stemmed from seeing this rigidly well-mannered woman react to absurdly weird/bad situations that she clearly never anticipated. I relished her facial expressions; the hints of anxiety and buried emotion trying to poke through her nice, conventionally pretty, upper-middle-class 1950s housewife social persona. I don't know why, but I totally ate that up. Thought she was absolutely adorable. Betty Draper in the 1960s is Sad Alice In Wonderland, right down to the poofy dresses.

Was January Jones acting the part, or is that how she is in real life? Who the hell cares? She's perfect for the role, and I can't imagine anybody playing it better.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:31 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


ugh one of the worst things I've seen people say about January was that she is exactly like Betty so must be a bad mother to her real life son. Ick.
posted by sweetkid at 7:37 PM on May 6, 2013


I work in TV and am working toward a career as a TV writer. (Preparation for which includes DOING lots of unpaid practice TV writing.)

Figuring out the voice of a character is HUGE, and a big part of that, if the setting isn't the US in the present day, is deciding exactly how to approach dialect.

And, again, the goal is "suck em in and keep em coming back". That doesn't mean you can't ever pay attention to this stuff, and you should definitely use character voice to remind us that we're in an exotic setting, but you have to do it carefully.

It's also very rare for anyone to try to do it with children, because children can only work 4 hours a day as it is. You want to get 'em in and get 'em out without needless distractions like "it turns out your vocal patterns are slightly anachronistic in a way that most viewers don't understand or care about."

I think for a person directing children in after-school theatre or the like, the focus is a little different and you can ask them to try whatever you like. As a TV director, you would be fired on the spot for wasting time on this.
posted by Sara C. at 7:38 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I work in TV and am working toward a career as a TV writer. (Preparation for which includes DOING lots of unpaid practice TV writing.)

Yes. Very good. I see that you think that a difference of opinion is about comparing credentials. You are free to look mine up online. You also don't seem to think my opinion is valid, and that means I shall not be discussing this anymore with you.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:42 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I've long thought this fan video montage was a really lovely look at Betty's inner life. It breaks my heart a little every time.
posted by sweetkid at 7:43 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, I wanted to post this earlier but:

The scene at the Ossinging house when Betty realizes she's kinda responsible for Don meeting Megan, her face did this amazing bit of micro-acting as you saw shock, anger, panic, shock again, etc play out on her "trying very hard to remain calm" expression


This is that scene and while Jon Hamm is good in it, it's January's scene and if you think that's bad acting and the writers are exasperated with her, I mean...are we watching the same show?
posted by sweetkid at 7:53 PM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]


I don't think your opinion is invalid, I just know your opinion isn't what TV writers and directors gear their choices to. Because I've been on the set of a TV show and watched this stuff go down.

Yes, there are some of us who are total geeks for period accuracy and really love thinking about whether someone would say "Do you have a pencil" vs. "Have you got a pencil" or the like (something Mad Men consistently gets wrong).

But the vast majority of viewers aren't period language geeks. And the people who are period language geeks are probably going to watch anyway, because they're period geeks and Mad Men is their bread and butter.

So you have to make choices about how the characters will speak. This comes down to the words you put on the page (where the writer has the most control), but also involves directing the cast (where the writer may have little or no control).

Usually the way I've seen it explained before from a writerly context is that you want to use word choice to convey this stuff, because that's the easiest way to control what the actors say. If you leave it to the director to coach the actor, god knows what the result will be.

Because of this, something like vocal fry would be low priority (you need to hire a very specialized dialect coach to work with the director and the actress to arrive at the "correct" "period" effect that might not achieve what you want), whereas figuring out how many times Stan and Ginsberg can get away with saying "man" in a single scene is much higher priority (either it's on the page or it's not).
posted by Sara C. at 7:54 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Elsa, felt the same way about Olivia at first (self-link, natch), but in the end I think the story was much more complex than comparing one good image of femininity and one bad, and I wonder if much of my knee-jerk reaction was an essentially sexist one (more smurfette principle; the only good girl is one who isn't girly, etc. etc.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:56 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Hey Tom and Lorenzo, I'd really appreciate if you didn't spoil GAME OF THRONES in your MAD MEN reviews. Warning for anyone who is behind on GOT and is thinking about reading their review of "For Immediate Release".
posted by crossoverman at 7:56 PM on May 6, 2013


Is it just me or do Tom & Lorenzo think Mad Men is "in a rut" or "lost the mojo" for the first half of every season?
posted by Sara C. at 8:04 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Is Pete a bad actor? I don't know, I liked him well enough on his previous TV show...

I had trouble concentrating during any of Pete's scenes in the first season because I kept expecting him to break out with a punch line. (Aaaaaaaand Satan!)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:06 PM on May 6, 2013


I'm looking forward to reading that, PhoBWanKenobi; I think I'll save it to read tomorrow while I drink my coffee!

I wonder if much of my knee-jerk reaction was an essentially sexist one (more smurfette principle; the only good girl is one who isn't girly, etc. etc.)

I hear what you're saying and I think there's value to that question --- but my own reaction to Fauxlivia wasn't me devaluing traditional femininity, but my resentment at (what I perceived to be) the implication that Olivia's lack of traditionally feminine presentation was suddenly revealed to be the result of childhood damage.

I had so enjoyed watching Olivia, and the presentation of a gruff*, no-nonsense female character was such a welcome change! I loved watching her, and I missed her. And at the time --- now, I'm not sure a rewatch would bear this out --- I felt like the show was suddenly framing that personality as the sad consequence of losing her mother at a young age, as a regrettable piece of personal psychological baggage rather than simply an unproblematic facet of her personality.

*Just the fact that she can arguably be described as "gruff" is telling: is she any more gruff or brusque than, say, Horatio Cain or Seeley Booth or any of the male detectives from "Law & Order"?
posted by Elsa at 8:14 PM on May 6, 2013


It's almost like Don's freedom to reinvent himself is innately tied to his gender!

Didn't work for Lane...
posted by juiceCake at 8:15 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Is it just me or do Tom & Lorenzo think Mad Men is "in a rut" or "lost the mojo" for the first half of every season?

Yeah, I'm beginning to disagree with them a lot in their reviews - not so much in their Mad Style posts. I don't think the show is in a rut, nor do I think Weiner loves Don Draper so much that he can't see his faults. He can see them - he can see that Don hates himself, which drives him to drink and think he doesn't love his children. Drives him to women and to whores. I don't think the show wants us to think Don Draper is cool - not anymore. It's very clear the show wants us to acknowledge his alcoholism, where other characters are abstaining from drinking during the day now - just for one example.

Even the idea that this is the Mad Men that T&L have been missing is kind of ridiculous, because this sort of full out, plot chewing, caper episode happens once every three years. I think T&L are in a rut.
posted by crossoverman at 8:17 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm surprised you guys read Fauxlivia as girly, because when she's on screen she's swaggering and strutting like a cowboy, like she might spit tobacco or adjust her crotch at any time. I think that's Torv trying to be dynamic. I think this feminine/masculine thing is mostly in your heads, but if I had to pick a more "masculine", powerful and self-confident Olivia, it would be the red one. Neither of them is girly.
posted by fleacircus at 8:21 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


t's January's scene and if you think that's bad acting and the writers are exasperated with her, I mean...are we watching the same show?

Oh god I love that scene. Betty's precise little makeup movements, the shared cup, the slight glimmer of hope that everything could go back to "normal" totally crushed in a single sentence, it's a wonderful depiction of a woman trying not to fall through the god-damned floor.
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on May 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Oh god I love that scene. Betty's precise little makeup movements, the shared cup, the slight glimmer of hope that everything could go back to "normal" totally crushed in a single sentence, it's a wonderful depiction of a woman trying not to fall through the god-damned floor.

And the happy knowing look she gives as Don heads to the cabinet to retrieve a long-hidden bottle: happy because she knows him so well, because this is all so familiar and comfortable despite what they've suffered through. Yeah, it's crushing.
posted by Elsa at 8:24 PM on May 6, 2013


Oh god I love that scene. Betty's precise little makeup movements, the shared cup, the slight glimmer of hope that everything could go back to "normal" totally crushed in a single sentence, it's a wonderful depiction of a woman trying not to fall through the god-damned floor.

Yes, and the way she blurts out "BethanyVanNuys" all in a rush like you know that name has been pulsing in her head ever since that night at the restaurant when she saw them together.
posted by sweetkid at 8:25 PM on May 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


And I never read Fauxlivia as "girly". She's King Shit Of Fuck Mountain, a ballsy, confident version of Olivia who doesn't have the deep reserves of grief and damage - and since I thought the thrust of the show was always empathy, Olive's more walled off attitude betrays a huge capacity for empathy tha Fauxlivia doesn't really have cause Fauxlivia is kinda .....way too impressed with herself.

Also Olivia is an X-Man and Fauxlivia is not. You get a bad childhood, you get superpowers. it works in the Marvel universe and it can work here.
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 PM on May 6, 2013


Dude sweetkid why do you keep referring to January Jones just as "January"?
posted by kenko at 8:33 PM on May 6, 2013


I think this feminine/masculine thing is mostly in your heads, but if I had to pick a more "masculine", powerful and self-confident Olivia, it would be the red one. Neither of them is girly.

I'm not suggesting that Olivia is masculine or manly, just that she's not adopting the mobile, softened type of body language and gesture that so many North American women (me included) are accustomed to presenting. She's not displaying the gestures of femininity that many of us do, that we're trained to present.

What I'm talking about is displayed in the differences in gesture and body language in this clip. I'm thinking particularly of Olivia's straight, unyielding posture as she loads boxes, her straight neck and direct gaze with open eyes, her squared shoulders, compared to Fauxlivia's contrapposto pose with popped hip and raised shoulder, her shifting of weight from side to side, her cocked head and little smile, the way she flickers her lashes over and over, the floating gestures of her hands as they hover above the boxes.

Fauxlivia is confident and powerful, sure, but that body language reads as distinctly feminine to me. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not Olivia's body language, and I had really enjoyed the show's portrayal of Olivia precisely because it was so rare and refreshing to see.
posted by Elsa at 8:36 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Because they are besties!

No, really because it's shorter and I think everyone in this particular thread knows who that refers to. It's not like there are a ton of actresses named January playing roles on TV right now.

Kind of like if this were a thread about Girl, Interrupted and someone started typing Angelina or Winona rather than explain each time that they were referring to the actresses Angelina Jolie and Winona Ryder who portray characters in said film.
posted by Sara C. at 8:36 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Dude sweetkid why do you keep referring to January Jones just as "January"?

I don't know? I think someone said "Kiernan" earlier? Don't know why that's a big deal, she's the only January on the show or really anywhere.


No, really because it's shorter and I think everyone in this particular thread knows who that refers to.

Yeah
posted by sweetkid at 8:38 PM on May 6, 2013


"Clearly some viewers can't imagine her inner life in any complexity,"

I think a lot of viewers don't WANT to because portraying multidimensional mothers is rare and challenging. Everyone has a mother, so everyone has an opinion on how it ought to be done, and people's opinions of their own mothers tend to be very strong, whether it's love or hate. I think people a lot of people who want to reduce Betty "a bad mother" or "bad actress" aren't comfortable with the portrayal of a mother who's ambivalent about and not always very good at her her role as a mother, because for a lot of people it's easiest not to inquire too deeply into what their own mothers gave up to mother them, or the ways in which their own mothers failed.

I think she is also very hard to relate to for a lot of viewers because it is hard, today, to imagine how limited the choices and self-expression of such a privileged woman could be. I think a lot of people who hate Betty reflexively can't get past a woman with such vast resources (money, education) who feels so completely trapped. In a lot of ways, Betty is one of the last characters on the show to be trapped completely in a predetermined role where conforming to appearances matters quite a bit; she could almost be in a Jane Austen novel where class and gender and appearances are so profoundly limiting. The other characters are breaking free of those limits -- that's what so much of the show is about -- but the wealthy suburban housewife remained a life with clearly-defined and limited expectations and punishment for stepping outside those lines for far longer than many other roles did.

I actually think Mad Men's writers are very sensitive to the struggle that a lot of suburban housewives had in that era. My grandmother didn't work, even after her kids got a bit older and she was SOOOOOO BORRRRRRED at home, because a working wife was an admission that the husband was a failure as a provider. My grandmother was not easily cowed by social convention, but that one was intensely powerful. Betty is Feminine Mystiquing hardcore; I think people forget why that book was so revelatory ... and that it didn't free housewives immediately from convention!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:44 PM on May 6, 2013 [13 favorites]


Betty is Feminine Mystiquing hardcore

I read that book in high school. I think my main takeaway was "wow sexism was a thing" and thought it explained so much Anne Sexton - now that I know sexism IS STILL a thing I think I need to reread.
posted by sweetkid at 8:46 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm surprised you guys read Fauxlivia as girly, because when she's on screen she's swaggering and strutting like a cowboy, like she might spit tobacco or adjust her crotch at any time. I think that's Torv trying to be dynamic. I think this feminine/masculine thing is mostly in your heads, but if I had to pick a more "masculine", powerful and self-confident Olivia, it would be the red one. Neither of them is girly.

I was being reductive in my summation of my feelings. I don't think it's actually a matter of girlyness actually, but more that Fauxlivia in some ways initially read to me as a post-feminist reaction to her earlier character, one who has an uncomplicated relationship with her physicality and work and relationships, without the damage or with the apparently competing urges about work and families.

In the end, I ended up thinking they were both fairly complex and neither so representative, though.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:49 PM on May 6, 2013


And I'm describing an immediate visceral and emotional reaction I had to seeing a character whose body language I admired and enjoyed watching suddenly being displayed as a foil for her less emotionally damaged alternate-universe counterpart, as if that straight, direct body language is directly related to being emotionally stunted rather than (as I said above) being simply an unproblematic personality trait. For me, that turned what had been a truly enjoyable and relatively novel aspect of the character into something very sour.

My "Fringe"-watching actually petered out sometime in that season or the next, so A) I don't know a ton about Fauxlivia's ongoing personality or plot; I mainly saw her presented as a contrast to Olivia, and B) I'm not reading much about her because I'd like to avoid spoiling the remainder of the show for myself in case I go back to it someday.
posted by Elsa at 8:58 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


p.s., PhoBWanKenobi, I would like us to rent a cottage for a week and sit up every night on our sleeping bags, eating popcorn and talking rabidly about TV and movies and books. When can we do that? really soon right right right?
posted by Elsa at 9:19 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yes please, Elsa!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:26 PM on May 6, 2013


You guys just wish you were like me and Sara C.
posted by sweetkid at 9:29 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I JUST LIKE POPCORN AND SLEEPING BAGS.
posted by Elsa at 9:30 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


All are welcome in my cabin of feminist analysis.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:35 PM on May 6, 2013 [21 favorites]


You have a color war against the Marxist Analysis Cabin every summer.
posted by The Whelk at 9:37 PM on May 6, 2013 [9 favorites]


Fuck the Julie Taylor Test. I could imagine Julie Taylor's inner life just fine, it helps having been a teenage girl at one point in my goddamn life.

Do you think it's a fucking accident that all the people she lists are women?

Internalized misogyny is a hell of a drug, folks.
posted by destronomics at 9:41 PM on May 6, 2013 [14 favorites]


guyz im all out of favorites.
posted by device55 at 10:10 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah I'm not sure why they picked on Julie Taylor. The FNL writers seemed to have no idea half the time what any of the characters were about; I don't think Julie was any less thought out than Landry or Matt or any of the other not-all-that-believable-characters, and I though Teegarden did fine with what she was given. Anyway, they all had to stand clear to let Connie Britton radiate out of that show like beams of warm light.

I don't think it's actually a matter of girlyness actually, but more that Fauxlivia in some ways initially read to me as a post-feminist reaction to her earlier character

Maybe you've seen so much Mad Men that now everything looks like a slow pitch to feminist analysis.
posted by fleacircus at 10:21 PM on May 6, 2013


mstokes650: "Everyone is on Betty White's side. Rightfully so."

Exactly. That's why it was confusing to me.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:30 PM on May 6, 2013


Frankly, I think 99.99999999% of TV viewers don't know enough about how TV is made to presume to say which (successful, working) actors are talented.

Wow, that's incredibly condescending.

it also makes no sense whatever to me. Actors perform for the audience. If someone has to know 'how TV is made' in order to appreciate a specific actor's work, I'd say that's a really strong indication that actor couldn't act his way out of a paper bag, not that 99.99999999% of the population doesn't recognize real talent when they see it.

Also, Christina Hendricks was awful on Firefly. Which goes to show how hard it is to definitively state whether someone is a Bad Actor or what.

Wow, I felt Christina Hendricks was the perfect Saffron. Please explain why you feel she was 'awful' in the role?

"Clearly some viewers can't imagine her inner life in any complexity,"

I think a lot of viewers don't WANT to because portraying multidimensional mothers is rare and challenging.


I wish January Jones were a better actress because the role, to me, has such strong potential, for just the reason you cite, "portraying multidimensional mothers is rare and challenging".

I know the writers put January Jones in the fat suit originally because the actress got pregnant, by the way. But actresses get pregnant all the time and carry it off with no problem; they stand behind counters or wear big coats or the crew closes in on their faces, etc.

January Jones, though, her whole identity as Betty is being the Pretty Girl. So they brought in the fat suit.

Significantly, they have continued with the fat suit well into this season's episodes. I feel this is because JJ is not skilled enough as an actress to show us that she is feeling deeply depressed and inadequate in her role as Mrs. Political Big Shot without the visual aids, like the obviously too-small dress, to hammer it home. She can do sharp and shrill, and she can do sweet and perky, but any deeper emotion is beyond her range.

I understand that some here like JJ in the role, and I'm cool with that. I'd really like it if you all didn't assume that, just because we disagree, those of us who think she is a bad actress are incapable of appreciating the nuance of the craft. Maybe it's because we do that we wish someone more talented had gotten such a juicy role.
posted by misha at 11:59 PM on May 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Phoebe/Elsa

I would like to join, but I worry i have not read enough....
posted by PinkMoose at 2:40 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Wow. Just when I thought I was caught up on our Mad Men conversation.
posted by .kobayashi. at 3:51 AM on May 7, 2013


GAH thanks to the stupid greyhound I was on yesterday I couldn't post my timely comment about the treatment of women on TV back when it was relevant. Damn.

Viewers' perceptions of woman characters has a lot to do with the context of the shows they're in. I noticed that fans of Enlightened were way less "fuck that bitch" about Amy Jellicoe even though she was probably the most aggravating woman character on TV this season. She makes Hannah Horvath look self-aware. Yet the show portrayed her as a person clearly in conflict, and therefore ultimately relatable, and that staved off a surprising portion of the Internet Hate. Hannah and the other Girls receive a whole lot of criticism, but then the whole point of that show is portraying its protagonists as unlikable so that makes sense.

Bunny Ultramod said it above, but Breaking Bad is the story of a man's complete descent into darkness, and it achieves that descent by keeping us in Walt's head 24/7. Skyler is the only serious antagonist in the early series, at least from Walt's perspective; Tuco is scary and Hank is potentially threatening, but you know Tuco can't kill Walt because the show has to go on, and Hank is too nice a guy to seemingly see what's under his own nose. Skyler, meanwhile, is sharp and self-aware and generally a very competent human being in a whole lot of ways, so obviously she notices every little weirdness in Walt's behavior and tries to keep him sane. You know, like a good wife. But from Walt's point of view, this comes across as unbearably emasculating, because Walt refuses to admit that he needs to depend on anybody else in order to succeed – and the thesis of Breaking Bad at this point seems to be, well, he's right, he can live purely selfishly, but only at the cost of the whole world around him.

I can't blame viewers for hating Skyler early on. My roommate just rewatched early Breaking Bad with his boyfriend, and he says that Skyler still comes off as completely unsympathetic, even now that he knows what's in store for her and Walt. That's an intentional choice on the show's part, and it's a useful one: it blurs the line between right and wrong enough that there is no agreed-upon point whereupon Walt is clearly the Bad Guy. For some viewers, it happens immediately, for some it's Jane or Gale or the lily-of-the-valley, and I'm sure some people still think that Walt's only crimes have been self-defensive even as of the season 5 interim. That ambiguity is what makes Breaking Bad the greatest thing on TV imo, and Skyler plays a key part of that ambiguity.

Earlier somebody in the thread mentioned Britta on Community, which is a much more frustrating example of writing women for TV. Because the way I see it, Britta is the show's protagonist at the very start. Jeff is the antagonist – if he gets what he wants, the show's over. But what he wants is Britta, and Britta is a marvelous character. While she's not quite as good a person as she wants to be (and she admits this right in the second episode), she's witty, perceptive, and able to simultaneously help Jeff out of tough spots a dozen times while still not taking any of his shit. Every time Jeff tries a trick that he hopes will get him laid, Britta's a step ahead of him, smart enough to do exactly the thing that'll knock him back the most without breaking the study group apart. The entire season one arc is based on this: Jeff's gradually becoming invested in Greendale, cliffhanging on his kissing Trudy I mean Annie at the tail end of the season. An action which, if Jeff is still the same person he was at the start of the season, is completely unimportant, because he's already slept with Britta and is done with his long con. But twenty-five episodes in he's changed enough that the threat this poses to the community is a serious deal.

Season two retcons that plot arc in a single episode, because fan reaction to the paintball episode basically made Dan Harmon decide he wanted to do a different show than the one he'd intended. While I think this hurt the show later on down the line, the immediate damage it did was to Britta, whose plots are some of the weakest parts of seasons 2 and 3. Because when Britta's not at the center in the show in a dramatic way, as a character who's conflicted about not doing enough about the issues she cares about but who has ripping on Jeff as a way of letting out zingers, she's not funny. Her being superior to Jeff in their every showdown was what made her such a superior character. And Abed even notes this in season one: if Britta's not one up on Jeff, the group loses a key dynamic. Her blurting out that she loves Jeff is pretty much the end of her one-upping him ever. Dynamic lost.

So the writers had to change Britta, and they changed her by making her increasingly incompetent and oblivious as time went on. Community damaged all its characters pretty severely (Annie got less manic and type A, Shirley got more nutty, Troy lost pretty much his entire personality and became Don Glover The Abed Sidekick), but Britta was its best character, and she's the one that most got damaged. It's one of the worst things about later Community (and the new season, for its flaws, seems to be making an effort to restore her respectability somewhat, which I appreciate the hell out of).

Mad Men, on the other hand, does marvelously by its women, both by giving them fleshed-out personalities and by giving them plenty of time and perspective. I realized how skewed my perception of Betty was when my household rewatched season one recently: from the start she's pretty miserable, but also pretty strong in her distorted sense. She's too innocent to know what Don's doing behind her back, but she's smart enough to use her psychologist against him when she figures out what's up, she gets her time to shine in the episode where she's asked to be a model, and of course the gun and the birds.

I've seen her time with Henry as her attempting to assert herself for the first time, with a husband who won't respond furiously to her efforts. Does she humiliate herself a lot? Sure. But she's also learning, both how to be a better mother (slowly, but yes it's happening) and how to be her own person. I'm nervous about this upcoming campaign of Henry's, but I also have some hopes that Henry is a good enough person that this will end up being a victory for her. I can see a Mad Men whose final resolution involves Betty finally having figured herself out. There's hope. She's still pretty young. The show seems determined to say that people don't change, but it's also willing to say that people don't know who they are, and when they discover more about themselves they can take advantage of that and end up a bit less awfully than they began.

I get that people dislike Megan, but to me she's been one of the show's most fascinating characters, and a big part of it has to do with how fluid and responsive she is as a person. Time and again she acts in ways that surprise me, that run contrary to how I imagine Don's wife would behave. And to the commenters here who think that Megan's just a relic of older seasons and now she's just taking up space... I couldn't disagree with you more. This Sylvia thing is going to blow up, but not along the lines we think it will. Megan's reaction is going to be more unusual than I think most of us, myself included, are predicting.

I could be wrong, but think about the plotlines this show has been setting up and resolving. We get Pete and Trudy rapidly disintegrating, which incidentally has been wonderful to watch; why would Mad Men give us a second redundant plot involving a wife getting upset with her husband when there isn't even the work-life dynamic that Pete has with Trudy's father? Why would we get this time on Megan's rising fame, which is a direct consequence of Don's actions at the end of season five (and the actions which led to his pursuing a new affair, we're told)? Why the presence of Megan's (awesome) mother, with her sensibilities on adultery and her unwillingness to take shit from the men in her life? There's a whole lot of potential bubbling there, and it doesn't end how we expect it will.

To tie this in with the "Don can change and Betty can't" comment above, this is a part of the central identity theme of Mad Men. Don is not our protagonist because he's invented a wholesale life for himself: he's the lead because he's selling what he thinks people want without asking whether it's really what they're looking for. At no point does he stop to question who he really is or what he's looking for, except in the most superficial of ways. He doesn't even pity himself the way Walter White does: to him, this constant reinvention is simply what it means to be an adult. He's the madman here. And twice his desire for reinvention has (inadvertently, perhaps) driven men to suicide. I wouldn't be surprised if the show ends with him jumping, as the title credits would ominously suggest.

Betty is in many ways a direct result of that kind of psychosis. She has turned herself into the woman she was told she should be. And you know what? If Don really was who he said she was, she might have gone through with that her whole life. Maybe even his cheating on her wouldn't have been enough to sever their ties entirely. She is the trophy wife in many ways, not least of which because she truly believes (or believed) that this is what was right.

Now she's been put in a real crisis, and as a result she's been slowly figuring herself out. So maybe she works out what's been going so wrong all this time. Certainly Sally seems to have her head in a good place, so maybe Betty follows suit. It'll be curious to see how she develops over the course of this season. In any event her breaking apart from Don gives her a freedom that Don still does not have. Because for Don, this maintaining of identity is still utterly necessary.

Megan is the foil to Betty: she arrived at the show's exact midpoint, and went from nobody to wife over the course of the show's middle season. Since then she's spent a season deciding she wants out of the advertising world that is Don's life, and now half a season gradually becoming more famous. Soon she'll overshadow Don. So what happens when she finds out Don is cheating, and with a woman in his own building no less? (Exactly the sort of proxomity affair that Trudy flips a shit at Pete for carrying on, not at all foreshadowingly?)

Maybe she'll do what Trudy did to Pete, and slowly make Don's life a misery. Maybe she'll be much more vicious in her revenge, if her fame as an actress gives her enough leverage to really hurt Don in a way that matters. She knows he's Dick Whitman; what could she do with that information if she wanted to? How could she get under Don's skin?

Or maybe she goes the opposite direction, and shows Don the empathy and the understanding that he probably doesn't deserve. Maybe his having an affair on her isn't enough to tear the two of them apart. I might be a total rube for reading it this way, but Megan seems to genuinely care about Don, not just for his status but for his person. And Don is awful at reciprocating, and maybe this is enough to make Megan decide he just isn't worth it, but maybe a part of the show's arc is towards a forgiveness of fucked-up social identities and towards Don being given a chance to open up to a woman he's already opened up more to than he has to anybody else on the show.

Megan is an optimist, and Megan is headstrong enough to insist that she get what she wants, and Megan is able to call Don out for his heaps and heaps of bullshit without resenting him for it later. Megan sees the change in a way that the rest of the central cast really doesn't. Maybe she gets to be the inspiration for Don's finally escaping some of the haunts of his past. Or maybe she's the face of the new generation telling Don he's dead and done for. Or maybe both at once. In any event, she holds a unique position of power in the show, and I expect the show to take full advantage of it.

Betty is in the opposite position – she's virtually powerless. I hope the show ends with her finding something of herself, rather than with her suffering from the consequences of the universe she was born into. The things that make her appalling are things much beyond her control.

I get why fans hate Betty, and much like in Breaking Bad it's because she often opposes the reality Don wishes he was living in. But I have some hope that this show will do right by her. She's a tragic character, but she's out of the way of Don's hurricane, at least for the most part. With luck this Henry thing will lead to change of some good nature, instead of just leading onward to further misery.

(I won't say anything about Joan or Peggy, because each is so self-evidently a wonderful character that neither deserves a word of comment.)
posted by Rory Marinich at 4:35 AM on May 7, 2013 [20 favorites]


And nobody was good on Firefly because Firefly sucked.

:D :D :D :D :D
posted by Rory Marinich at 4:36 AM on May 7, 2013


I don't think the Peggy/Ted thing is going to escalate. I've stated in previous threads that Ted's thoughts and feelings about Peggy are much more crush-like than love-like. This episode backs this up: when Ted finally crosses over the line and kisses Peggy, and she kisses back, Ted does not think "AT LONG LAST OUR DESTINY OF LOVE WILL NO LONGER BE DENIED!" Instead it's more like "Whoa hold on, this is real now? Maybe not such a great idea." The spell of infatuation is broken. He may or may not be having relationship issues with his wife, but has his character ever been shown to cheat on her or even otherwise indicate casual interest in other women (aside from his Peggy infatuation)? As someone said above, he seems Very Married. Add in the fact that he's her boss and he now has this whole merger to deal with - I don't think he's going to be focusing so much on Peggy anymore.

Unfortunately for Peggy, the kiss puts her in the opposite place - giving her an outlet to fantasize about getting away from the aspects of her life she is currently unhappy with. But I also think this is a crush and she is not in love with Ted, even though she thinks he is "strong". He is the guy who quoted "something" by Emerson to who once and picturing a nice stable life with him is a nice contrast to the whirlwind her life has become. Last episode took place at the beginning of April. This episode is in later May. So in one month she has found out maybe Abe wants kids/deeper relationship, abandoned her plans to move the east side, purchased and moved to an apartment (and become a landlord!) in a part of the city she is not finding as fun and adventurous as Abe described.

Quite a month and enough to make anyone state they "hate change". But it's over the moment she sees Don in the office. Like Ted, she is now jolted out of fantasy land and has bigger things to worry about. She and Abe are probably still not going to make it, but it won't be because of Ted.
posted by mikepop at 5:47 AM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


I know the writers put January Jones in the fat suit originally because the actress got pregnant, by the way. But actresses get pregnant all the time and carry it off with no problem; they stand behind counters or wear big coats or the crew closes in on their faces, etc.

Those options suck. No, seriously, they're always contrived and obvious.

Whereas it's realistic that a woman like Betty would gain weight, then slowly lose it. Regardless of acting, it's infinitely better writing.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:26 AM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


PhoBWanKenobi, I agree with you that ose options suck. I find the plot twist of Betty's weight gain both realistic and fascinating, because it means the character is either going to have to mature, become a better person and start loving herself for her intrinsic worth rather than her looks, or that she is going to implode.

I could see it going either way--Betty overdosing on diet pills in a desperate effort to slim down and be Perfect seems the most likely course, but I hope she grows instead. It would also be great for Sally to see her Mom transform herself that way.
posted by misha at 6:37 AM on May 7, 2013


I'm holding out hope for Betty. She's on the cusp of the "Me Decade" so maybe she will go out and find a way of living that brings her a measure of content.
posted by Mister_A at 7:16 AM on May 7, 2013


Betty overdosing on diet pills in a desperate effort to slim down and be Perfect seems the most likely course

I don't think we're going to see this on the show.
posted by sweetkid at 7:21 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


I feel this is because JJ is not skilled enough as an actress to show us that she is feeling deeply depressed and inadequate in her role as Mrs. Political Big Shot without the visual aids

Some viewers might see it this way, but I promise if you watch any of the episodes with the voiceover commentary by the writers and actors, you will discover that Matthew Weiner adores January Jones. He is constantly calling attention to the depth and subtlety of her acting (e.g., "this is one of my favorite scenes, I love what January does with it," "Watch her face here, this is amazing," etc. etc.). I mean he's pretty effusive about all his actors. But there's no question that he has a very high opinion of the way Jones portrays Betty (I agree with him). No way is the fat suit some kind of concession to what the PTB see as inadequacies in her work.

One thing I like about Weiner is how he seems to have genuine affection for his characters. In the recent interview on Fresh Air, Terry Gross asked him how much she is supposed to hate Don Draper. And he responded that he doesn't want viewers to hate DD at all. That he sees Don as a deeply flawed, deeply damaged man that viewers should in some ways be able to identify with. I find this interesting, in part because Mad Men is similar in some ways to The Sopranos, but it seems like Weiner's perspective on his protagonist is very different from David Chase's on Tony Soprano. Chase took almost an antagonistic stance toward the audience, who refused to hate Tony; in response to that loyalty to the character, Chase just made Tony a bigger and bigger shit. And while it might be tempting to think Weiner is doing the same thing, he really is not. He likes his characters, fucked up as they are, and wants the viewers to like them too.

It seems like a lot of viewers don't really get this, and maybe it's a flaw in Weiner's work that it doesn't come through more clearly in the show. I think, for example, that a lot of Jessica Pare's poor reception as a major character was a result of viewers being far more cynical than Weiner was himself. People were so suspicious of Megan--she was an empty-headed golddigger, had no real talent, wasn't a team player, had a secret dark history, slept her way to the top, was a petulant child, wasn't as caring about kids as she played up to be, wasn't to be trusted, and so on. All this stuff was projected on Megan, when in fact Megan was just what she appeared to be: a kindhearted, young (yes, very young), vulnerable woman who was also beautiful and talented, had ambitions of her own, and genuinely cared about Don. In other words, someone who could be very very good for Don Draper, if Don would just stop blowing up everything good that comes his way.

Anyway. I like Rory Marinich's optimism up above and think it might be justified (at least a little, in part, I hope) by Weiner's warm feelings toward his own characters. Guess we'll see.
posted by torticat at 7:53 AM on May 7, 2013 [13 favorites]


Wow, it's gotten weird in here. One of the great things about Metafilter is that there'll be a discussion of, like, sausage making, and someone will show up and say, "I am a sausage-maker, and let me give you some inside scoop." I'm not sure why Sara C. using her actual experience observing TV shows get made gets a lot of crappy tone commentary.

I find the idea of Betty sending Sally to speech therapy hilarious and improbable.
posted by purpleclover at 8:01 AM on May 7, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm not noticing anything objectionable about the way Sara C. is responding here. In fact, a lot of the things she points out (especially about limited access to child actors; I didn't know the 4 hours a day thing) are very interesting, and it's all presented very respectfully.

The one thing she said that might be seen as even vaguely controversial is this...

Frankly, I think 99.99999999% of TV viewers don't know enough about how TV is made to presume to say which (successful, working) actors are talented.

...which is pretty much true. TV is a specialized medium, and unless you understand something of the interplay between writer-director-camera-actor and what a show's intent with a particular scene or character is, it's hard to tell who's really doing a good job up there, who's following directions very well, who's aiming for one thing but flubbing it, and who's doing an impressive amount with bad directions.

This is the same as any profession that requires specialized knowledge. The difference being, people don't assume expertise with plumbing or politics or science or... oh wait, they do all that too! Anyway, a viewer has EVERY right to say "this didn't come off well for me" or "this actor never communicates anything interesting to me", because yes, misha is right, ultimately acting is for the audience. But there's a difference between noting a failure to communicate and blaming the actor for their lack of talent. Many/all talented people take many awful roles, and likewise many actors of limited scope find directors who can make them work and briefly seem good. My go-to reference there is Lara Flynn Boyle in Twin Peaks, whose performance seemed subtle and nuanced when the episode director was David Lynch and awful at all other times. Lynch apparently just saw something in her that he could work with, and nobody else could.
posted by Rory Marinich at 8:12 AM on May 7, 2013 [4 favorites]


I wonder if Megan's experience with her parents may actual make her the ideal partner for Don.
posted by drezdn at 8:39 AM on May 7, 2013


It's just weird to keep insisting that Matt Weiner put January Jones in a fat suit because she doesn't know how to express the pathos of her character when they could have just fired her/written off her character if Weiner and the writers were unhappy with her work. I don't work in TV but even I know that hours of custom prosthetics and makeup are pretty expensive for a production (not just materials, but time is money). Also JJ mentions in the interview linked upthread that she was breastfeeding while shooting the initial (and fat-Betty-heaviest) scenes and that it was all very difficult. It's a shame to not her hard work and considerable skill in pulling all that off and not just looking like an uncomfortable mess everytime she appeared on screen.

Again, don't work in the industry but I think it's valid to say people don't understand it. This stuff is a LOT harder than it seems. For example, I was listening to the commentary track for the episode in Season 1 where Roger comes home with Don and they have that dinner where Roger hits on Betty and then Don is horrible to her for the rest of the episode. The actors said it took twelve hours to shoot the dinner and they were eating cake and drinking fake wine at 3 AM under hot lights.

To endure all that and still just be able to be present takes a lot of skill and determination and I think that's why people like Sara C. are saying it's hard to understand how much work goes into these things unless you're a part of the industry.

It's just one thing to be like, "I don't like JJ's acting" and another to say " I care about the show so much that I wish they had cast someone else" and "obviously the writers think she is a bad actor and that's why they created x and y storylines." It's just inventing things based on personal taste.
posted by sweetkid at 8:44 AM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


If someone has to know 'how TV is made' in order to appreciate a specific actor's work

That's not what I said, and not what I meant.

What I meant is that really and truly, most people don't know enough about how TV is made to judge someone as a BAD ACTOR.

It's really easy to watch the finished product and decide for completely whimsical reasons "ewwwww so and so is such a bad actor!"

But the reality is that, if the finished product is getting broadcast on TV at all, most likely the actor is perfectly good.

People don't just walk onto sound stages and just start spouting lines.

The casting process, especially for a TV show, and doubly so for a drama serial, is very involved. The writers and producers know the kind of show they want to make. They have outlines for the first several episodes by the time the pilot is produced. They know how big of a role any particular part is going to be. Shows are cast with this in mind.

This would be extremely true for Betty, who isn't even in the pilot (or maybe is for just a moment?). The writers would have known they needed someone strong in the role of Don's wife, and that this actor would have to be able to roll with the punches fresh, without the benefit of experimenting as part of the team during the pilot shoot. The producers would have had months after the show's pickup to cast Betty, and they would have done so with a whole season worth of story in hand. And since it's a cable series, where most of the work is in the can before it airs, they would have had PLENTY of time to cut or recast Betty if they weren't happy with January Jones' work.

Why waste money renting fat suits and hiring makeup artists when you can accomplish the same thing for free with a pen?
posted by Sara C. at 9:07 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


(and become a landlord!)

Where are you getting this?

My read of the episode was that Peggy had bought an apartment, not the building.

I'll admit I'm confused about the mechanics of that -- condos aren't a thing yet, and the way the apartment looks and the space is described it seems to be a brownstone, and those don't typically go co-op. In my experience, too, the people buying on the Upper West Side in the 60's were buying brownstones, not apartments.

Then again, I'm also confused about some aspects of the Drapers' and Rosens' apartments, and suspect that the writers just aren't terribly concerned with being 100% factual about the inner workings of Manhattan housing stock. Much to my pedantic dismay.
posted by Sara C. at 9:26 AM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


They should definitely, definitely move the entire production to New York for the last season. For the realism. Not so I can try to run into Jon Hamm at cafes. It's the realism.
posted by sweetkid at 9:31 AM on May 7, 2013 [3 favorites]


Where are you getting this?

Maybe I didn't hear correctly but in the initial apartment scene I thought she referred to "our tenant" upstairs. Maybe she was just referring to the upstairs tenant in general. I'll take another look at the scene tonight.
posted by mikepop at 9:32 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


This might be a little deraily, but I thought history dorks, TV dorks, and folks who follow Tom & Lorenzo's Mad Style series might enjoy this:

Colorizing Laura Petrie

In one of the screenshots, she's wearing a dress that is a DEAD RINGER for one worn by Peggy in Sunday's episode of Mad Men.

Also, Laura Petrie was a TV mom! In the 60's! Living the Betty Draper dream! So it's topical!
posted by Sara C. at 9:34 AM on May 7, 2013


mikepop, I got "the tenant", not "our tenant", but I could be equally wrong.

It seems like if they own the building, it shouldn't be terribly hard to get rid of the junkie upstairs. Between Peggy's financial resources and administrative tenacity (evicting her) or Abe's big strong dudely-ness and friendship with the local hoodlums (scaring her away), they should be able to come up with something between the two of them.

The tone of the scene seemed much more "ugh neighbors we have no control over" and less "facing the ugly reality of displacing people as a gentrifier". But again, this is the beauty of Mad Men. And you're right that it would make more sense if Peggy had bought a house rather than an apartment.
posted by Sara C. at 9:37 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sara C.: "The casting process, especially for a TV show, and doubly so for a drama serial, is very involved. The writers and producers know the kind of show they want to make. They have outlines for the first several episodes by the time the pilot is produced. They know how big of a role any particular part is going to be. Shows are cast with this in mind. "

I take your point here, Sara C., but to an extent this makes me think of the joke about the economist who doesn't pick up a $5 bill, because if it existed, it would already have been picked up. Yes, casting is a long involved process, but surely, some people who are not so great actors get cast, right? Keanu Reeves is not your go to guy for your production of The Iceman Cometh.

My impression of Betty as we see her is she seems locked into a few different emotions. Whether that is how she was written or Jones's acting limitations is unknown to me. But her acting also came under fire in the X-Men movie, I think.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:38 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Keanu Reeves is not your go to guy for your production of The Iceman Cometh.

But nobody would cast him in that. Not because he is Untalented, but because he's not that kind of actor.

Which is another angle of what I mean when I say that, for the most part, it's hard for casual viewers to tell whether someone is a Bad Actor or not.

The goal of making a film or TV show is to cast the right actor for this part. You pretty much don't ever see the actors who were wrong for the part. While it's true that mistakes are sometimes made, there are so many steps from casting to releasing the finished film that those mistakes typically get corrected, or at least diminished, by the time you ever see the performance.

I'm not saying there is never a moment of hackting (see Jon Hamm playing Dick Whitman), or that sometimes an actor just doesn't give a great performance. But chances are if we're talking about a lead on a long-running critically acclaimed TV show, the cast is probably up to the job.
posted by Sara C. at 9:52 AM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


mikepop, I got "the tenant", not "our tenant", but I could be equally wrong.

It would make more sense for them not to have tenant - I can't see it being germane to the story. My thought was that since they only just purchased the apartment they had to wait out a lease or that Abe wanted to be friendly with all the locals and not kick anyone out right away. But a more careful viewing will probably clear it up.
posted by mikepop at 10:07 AM on May 7, 2013


Colorizing Laura Petrie

Laura is very much like I imagine Betty might have been if her first marriage had been to a more genial, supportive man. She certainly had her brittle moments.

Related: Peggy is a Girl.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:14 AM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


That was my read, they don;t want to kick everyone out right away while they make improvements cause they're still tetchy on being middle-class gentrifiers
posted by The Whelk at 10:18 AM on May 7, 2013


The Laura Petrie thing also underscores my feeling that Peggy's hair is getting outdated again. She's due for another makeover, for sure.
posted by Sara C. at 10:20 AM on May 7, 2013


I rather liked her going brunette.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:23 AM on May 7, 2013


Wasn't Peggy always a brunette?
posted by Sara C. at 10:24 AM on May 7, 2013


Gah, vaporlock. Thinking of Betty's new do.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:28 AM on May 7, 2013


Colorizing Laura Petrie

oh I love that.
posted by sweetkid at 10:29 AM on May 7, 2013


Here's a little more about Betty's fat suit in this January Jones interview. According to Jones, she was only pregnant for the shooting of one episode (Season 5, ep. 2), but Weiner ran with the idea of Betty's physical transformation.

Jones talks a bit about her process (uh, such as it is) and acting on Mad Men in a quite nicely detailed way in this HitFix interview (sorry, mobile link). Whether you think Jones is great or terrible, you'll find tidbits to support your argument.
posted by purpleclover at 12:04 PM on May 7, 2013


Here's a little more about Betty's fat suit in this January Jones interview.

Yeah, I linked that upthread. I should have included it in the OP, I thought it was quite good.
posted by sweetkid at 12:11 PM on May 7, 2013


Oof, missed that, sweetkid. Sorry.
posted by purpleclover at 12:30 PM on May 7, 2013


Also, Laura Petrie was a TV mom! In the 60's! Living the Betty Draper dream! So it's topical!

A further aside about Laura Petrie's wardrobe — Mary Tyler Moore had to fight the show's producers to get them to let her wear pants on the show. MTM said it just wasn't realistic at all to have Laura wear dresses all the time when every young wife she knew including herself wore them around the house routinely.
posted by orange swan at 12:45 PM on May 7, 2013 [4 favorites]


"Wore pants around the house routinely", that is.
posted by orange swan at 1:49 PM on May 7, 2013


my feeling that Peggy's hair is getting outdated again. She's due for another makeover

I was having that same thought during the most recent episode. In earlier seasons it seemed that Peggy took some style cues from Joan, and I wonder if she had stagnated a bit once she left SCDP. Now that Peggy and Joan will be back under one roof, it will be interesting to see if that influences Peggy's style. Also very interested to see how Peggy and Joan will get along- there had been hints of a possible alliance, and then Peggy left.
posted by ambrosia at 2:43 PM on May 7, 2013


I've been watching a lot of mid-late 60's TV (OK let's call it what it is, it's Star Trek), and I feel like the helmet head thing would have been passe for women under 30 by '67 or so. That said, Peggy always runs a year or two behind the times, style-wise.

I've never had the sense that Peggy took fashion cues from Joan, and she seems to have a circle of friends outside the SCDP landscape to take inspiration from. That said, I think her social circle skews leftist/counterculture, and for work she needs to project an air of unapproachability. She doesn't have the freedom to go full hippy like Stan does. But I think her hair can probably relax a little.

That said, getting another promotion could send her flying as far towards stodgy as she can get and still live on the UWS with her Times reporter boyfriend.
posted by Sara C. at 3:15 PM on May 7, 2013


Re: the landlord question, I just went back and re-watched the scene with Peggy and Abe in the apartment. I'm going to say they are landlords.

I can't make out if Peggy says our/the tenant because she kind of tightens her voice when she points up (and my TV says closed captioning isn't supported). But after she states the tenant is a junkie she says "I want her out" (not I wish she would move out, etc.) and her body language is saying "I know we had this discussion already but come ON already she is POOPING on the STAIRS what else does she have to do" (watch for a pleading look and her hand to raise slightly). Abe responds "We can't do that" (not how would we do that or we have no power over that, etc.) and his body language is slightly averting his eyes and turning his head because he knows Peggy is not exactly being irrational in wanting a stair-pooper out of the building, but he doesn't want to be an agent of gentrification. Then he very non-subtlely changes the subject, and Peggy goes along. The takeaway is that this is not the first time they've had this conversation.
posted by mikepop at 6:02 PM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


I thought so too, mikepop. It's not 100% clear, but my read was that Peggy bought the building.
posted by donajo at 6:13 PM on May 7, 2013


OK, I'm buying it. She bought the building. It makes a lot more sense in terms of Manhattan real estate, neighborhood housing stock, etc. as well.

That said, why does she say later on, "I just bought an apartment"?
posted by Sara C. at 6:24 PM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm not really that familiar with NYC real estate. What should she have said instead? "I just bought a brownstone"?
posted by donajo at 6:51 PM on May 7, 2013


Yes.

Or house, building, apartment building, etc.

"Bought an apartment" implies that one bought an apartment.

Which is why I assumed that Peggy only owns her apartment and doesn't have control over the junkie upstairs. Even though that actually doesn't make any sense, because in the 60's you couldn't really buy an apartment in a building like that.

But this is not something the vast majority of humans on earth know, and nor do they need to for the story to make sense, so whatever.
posted by Sara C. at 6:57 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


I thought she bought just her apartment too FWIW. Because that is what is usually meant by "apartment."
posted by sweetkid at 7:17 PM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


I am enjoying the NYC real estate talk.
posted by box at 8:20 PM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


I am enjoying the NYC real estate talk.

That's good, cause we could go on for months.
posted by sweetkid at 8:39 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Surely you'll be outbid by then.
posted by maryr at 10:20 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


As an urban planner who is driven to apoplexy by the paralysis of municipal governments in building transit, I feel like the line in last week's episode about the 2nd Ave. subway was written by Weiner just for me.
posted by dry white toast at 12:14 AM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]


That said, why does she say later on, "I just bought an apartment"?

Probably the real reason is as you say above - it's not really important to most watchers for the story to make sense.

If we wanted to fabricate some character reasoning, we could say that Peggy is quite conflicted about suddenly becoming a landlord so she's leaving that part out when telling people she's bought an apartment. Has she even told anyone the apartment is on the UWS yet? We could also say she ended up buying an apartment building because after seeing how much she could buy on the UWS with the money she had budgeted for buying the previous apartment. We could also speculate Abe pushed the idea a bit, since he already has romantic visions of the UWS and he sees a way he can contribute by fixing up the place and handling the landlord duties. Perhaps since Peggy was a bit leery of the UWS she figured buying an apartment would give her the most control of her immediate environment in the long run. There's also the investment angle, and the fact that you have rent from tenants going to your mortgage.

That's all speculation/backfill, though, and I'm not basing that on any particular scenes/dialogue. And it's only important to the story in how it relates to what happens when her and Abe split.

The next thing to speculate about is how many units are in the apartment. You can catch a glimpse of another apartment door when Peggy comes into her apartment so that's at least two units on the ground floor and assuming the floor above them has the same layout we have a minimum of four apartments. I can't see Peggy being talked into a building with more than eight apartments (or her budget supporting it).
posted by mikepop at 5:16 AM on May 8, 2013


New Mad Style is up.
posted by drezdn at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2013


New Mad Style is up.

They are way overplaying this blue and green theme. I'm starting to think there's very little there there.

Also T&Lo is starting to bug me a little overall with how much they argue with commenters on the blog. Like, chill, people. It's not personal.
posted by sweetkid at 9:26 AM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


Jane Bryan made a comment on how Megan dresses, not like a TV star, but how a young actress would think a TV star would look - she's dressing for the part she wants, not the one she has.
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 AM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]


Also, notice how Don and Ted's ties are slanting in opposite directions during the merger reveal, with the blocking, if you follow the lines of the ties down, they form a V, intersecting.

I thought that was neat.
posted by The Whelk at 10:16 AM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, notice how Don and Ted's ties are slanting in opposite directions during the merger reveal, with the blocking, if you follow the lines of the ties down, they form a V, intersecting.

Thus confirming the Chevy in question is a Vega?
posted by mikepop at 10:24 AM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


I misread "Colorizing Laura Petrie" as "Colonizing Laura Petrie" and I was like "wow! yes! Laura Petrie is a really interesting character -- a woman who could very well be as creatively talented as her spouse and who sometimes pursues professional success and acclaim, who wears trousers and dances and paints -- yet who has perhaps been colonized by others' desires." *click*

(nevermind)

'80s Don Draper: "The hippos eat marble after marble, but are never satisfied. That's America."
posted by brainwane at 12:57 PM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]


T&L: "We feel so sorry for [Peggy] right now. She didn’t even get an entire year away from him before he pulled her back in."

Rookie mistake! "The Other Woman" took place in January 1967. This episode took place in 1968. She was almost out for a year and a half. Which makes her getting pulled back in even worse.
posted by crossoverman at 1:50 PM on May 8, 2013


I'm really kind of not enjoying the T&Lo commentary this season. The arguing in the comments is awful, and I feel that a lot of it is just kind of . . . not as illuminating as it once was.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:59 PM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I really agree PhoBWanKenobi. I saw an interesting discussion over there about how Peaches is actually this very specific kind of 'client's wife' and she was reading the table and situation appropriately while telling her silly story (something I agree with - you can be provincial, boring and unintellectual but still socially savvy in certain situations) and T&Lo were like NO PEACHES IS AN IDIOT. NO.

Like wtf?
posted by sweetkid at 2:02 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


I genuinely thought it would be revealed that she spoke French. That look she gave Marie at one point . . .
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:13 PM on May 8, 2013 [9 favorites]


Yeah, well I think she got the gist of idiot.
posted by sweetkid at 2:18 PM on May 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


Hey, if it hadn't been for Peaches, we might never have found out that Don Draper loves puppies.

I say Peaches should be Don's next mistress. We might then find out who he really is, you know, inside.
posted by orange swan at 2:51 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah protip for people talking shit in a different language: Cognates are a thing.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:56 PM on May 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm really kind of not enjoying the T&Lo commentary this season.

I guess by now I'm just not that surprised that Janie Bryant is doing an amazing job with costumes. I mean, it's nice that T&Lo do all the screencapping work to prove that this episode is a direct comment on "The Other Woman" - but that's none too surprising, when the dialogue literally comments on the episode and the plot machinations are reverberations from that episode.

But I still think Mad Style is very valuable. Their post-episode reviews are far less valuable, as I don't really agree with their overall view of the season to this point. And I think they're missing the point of Don's destructive behaviour by a long way. (Though, as always, I don't think you can really judge Mad Men until the season is over.)
posted by crossoverman at 3:26 PM on May 8, 2013


Why Chevy Execs Are Suddenly Watching Mad Men - interesting parallels between Mad Men and real life

Also, the new merged agency is one of the "Top 25". How many advertising agencies were there in the 60s?
posted by crossoverman at 3:37 PM on May 8, 2013


Tying in the latest topic with the original, I've only come back to TLo in the last season or two - I got majorly fed up with their incessant insistence that Betty and Peggy's clothing choices marked them as childish. Dudes, tons of grown-ass women wore full skirts, plaids, and collared blouses in the early-to-mid 1960's. The full-skirted shirtwaist dress was practically a housewife's uniform. Check out a couple of vintage JC Penney catalogs, whydoncha?

They've eased up on that in recent seasons.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:16 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Are the comments on TLo pieces generally worth reading, presuming the hosts being argumentative is an anomaly? As a rule I skip the comments on all the recap places.
posted by rewil at 4:41 PM on May 8, 2013


I genuinely thought it would be revealed that she spoke French. That look she gave Marie at one point . . .

My husband said this very thing "I bet she speaks french!" - it would make perfect sense for her as, say, a certain type of southern finishing school belle.

What I'm really wondering about, though, is if the woman hired to play the "biggest, blackest prostitute you ever saw" knew this was how she would be described in the episode. For the impact she has on the rest of the episode/season, she really isn't any more than an extra. Was she surprised to find this? Did MW take special care in her casting?
posted by anastasiav at 5:20 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


I mean, it's nice that T&Lo do all the screencapping work to prove that this episode is a direct comment on "The Other Woman" - but that's none too surprising, when the dialogue literally comments on the episode and the plot machinations are reverberations from that episode.

The worst is when this is the case, and then they get annoyed at these things being out in the open and call it out as "on the nose." Despite the fact that, if Mad Men is "on the nose", what does that make all other TV ever? They clearly do not actually know what "on the nose" means.
posted by Sara C. at 6:06 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


Re their commentariat -- it's not cringeworthy, but I got turned off by the chorus of "OMG in 1960-whatever you just DID NOT do what [Peggy, Megan, Trudy, and/or Joan] just did!" followed by claims that the show is "anachronistic". Uhhhh, no. Times are changing. Those characters are on the vanguard of those changes. Just because something wasn't socially acceptable at a certain time (especially in the 60's, for chrissakes) doesn't mean it was physically impossible to do.

I just felt a deep misunderstanding of what the show is about, combined with a sense of superiority over the writers' intent, that made me really "SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET" twitchy. So I stopped.

But if you're more leery of "I'd totally hit that" type stuff, yeah, you're fine.
posted by Sara C. at 6:18 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


I was just rewatching the "I Love Puppies" scene. Poor Peaches. Megan's busy trying to soothe Marie's seething hatred, so Peaches is stuck carrying the conversation with a very limited skillset, and has to resort to the equivalent of conversational plate-spinning to stave off the black hole of awkwardness. It's business dinner hell, which is "I Love Puppies" is so awesome.
I also love that dress Peaches is wearing because it resembles many I remember from photos of late-seventies wedding and baby showers held in wood-paneled church basements and rural VFW meeting halls, worn by grandmas who were maybe slightly too old to pull off that hemline.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:49 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


And when Peaches realized Marie was about to say something really off-color, possibly in English, or maybe throw up or something, she quickly pulled that "powder our noses move."

Her story was silly but I don't get what was SO HORRIBLE about her. I mean, she's married to that guy. I imagine you have to dull the senses to some degree.
posted by sweetkid at 6:52 PM on May 8, 2013


Peaches is also the only person at the table who actually wants to make dinner an enjoyable experience. I agree with T&Lo's assessment of her in the post as a "silly woman", but at least she's trying.

I mean keep in mind this is basically her job.

Which reminds me... remember the time Megan and Don tag team closed a deal at a dinner not unlike this one?
posted by Sara C. at 7:25 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, exactly. This is her job. And as for being a silly woman, sure, but she's married to Herb. They are Peaches and Herb. I mean it speaks for itself they're not on the same plane as Don/Megan.
posted by sweetkid at 7:27 PM on May 8, 2013


Peaches and Herb!
posted by misha at 7:49 PM on May 8, 2013


It's interesting to me, and maybe apropos to the original topic of this FPP, that Herb is the possibly the most ridiculous character ever on the show with the exception of that kid who made a whole portfolio of WV ripoffs with identical copy, and folks are fixating on the guy's wife as a frivolous moron.

I mean, look who she's married to.

(BTW watching the scene my first thought was "of COURSE that would be this guy's wife.")
posted by Sara C. at 7:51 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh, and someone upthread asked about the Biggest Blackest Prostitute Ever.

So, this is a thing that happens a lot on TV. Sometimes it's a character who has lines but is not named, and other times it happens with featured extras, as B.B.P.E.

(A featured extra is an actor who doesn't say anything and isn't named in the script, but who a speaking actor has some kind of interaction with -- B.B.P.E. is almost a textbook example.)

For featured extras, they absolutely wouldn't have access to the whole script and likely are not supplied with the pages for their scene, either. That said, you're hanging around on set all day with a bunch of equally bored people who do have copies of that day's scenes readily to hand and don't care if you see them. And, I mean, she's walking through an obvious brothel scene in her underwear. She knows what she's there to do (and might know the significance of her part in the larger drama), even if she doesn't know about a specific line in a later scene.

Also, for roles like that, the show uses a special Extras Casting director, who would cast for the role by looking for an "African-American hooker type". I have a struggling actor friend who does a lot of this type of work, and he often books jobs that are billed as "crazy homeless man" or "tweaker". There's no attempt to hide what you're going in for, and in my experience actors count this sort of thing as a point of pride.

Extras Casting is weird.
posted by Sara C. at 8:04 PM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


I feel determined to prove you wrong, that there is a more ridiculous character than Herb on the show. I will go to the lab and report back when I have results.

But yeah, focusing on his wife is a big WTF
posted by sweetkid at 8:17 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


They are Peaches and Herb.

Reunited, and it feels so...awkward.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:21 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


Herb is the possibly the most ridiculous character ever on the show

I'll always have a special fondness for Mrs. Blankenship's arc.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:27 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also T&Lo is starting to bug me a little overall with how much they argue with commenters on the blog. Like, chill, people. It's not personal.

Yeah it's weird. And if a commenter pushes back at all, they pretty much respond as if the commenter is the one introducing the antagonism. It's offputting, especially considering that 99% of the responses they get are "OMG YOU ARE SO BRILLIANT!" It's not like the commenters are raking them over the coals every week.

I still love TLo, but I agree with others above that I have found myself disagreeing a lot with their comments on Mad Men this year. Their reaction to Don's talk with Megan about how he doesn't feel like he loves his kids was pretty much "Yawn. Tell us something we don't know." Whereas... I felt that scene was both super-poignant and significant. Don's many failures are not news, but his few moments of self-awareness ARE, and so is the willingness to share a really deep fear with another person.
posted by torticat at 8:27 PM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


But Mrs. Blankenship wasn't ridiculous, she was just senile and extremely out of place.

Their reaction to Don's talk with Megan about how he doesn't feel like he loves his kids was pretty much "Yawn. Tell us something we don't know." Whereas... I felt that scene was both super-poignant and significant.

This is another area where I have to wonder if they have ever seen any other television show, ever. I mean, the protagonist of a critically acclaimed and extremely popular TV show basically says out loud to another person that he finds it difficult to love his kids. That happens pretty much... never. What exactly is yawn-worthy about that?

I guess I agree that the character arc of Don as a failure as a husband and father is old news, but I really don't think that's what that scene was about. It's not a man admitting yet another failure, it's a man saying one of the main things that -- even 45 years later -- you just don't say, to his wife*, after decades of silence on any emotional matter whatsoever. I mean, this is the guy who sat down with a reporter who wanted to interview him and basically said, "yeah I don't do introspection sorry."

*And keep in mind the contrast between his relationship with Megan, where he is somewhat free to say these things to her, and Betty. I mean, just play this scene in your head, but put it in Season 2, with the questions/accusations coming out of Betty's mouth rather than Megan's. I'm not sure Betty would still be alive if she had walked into their Ossining bedroom and accused Don of not being there for his kids because he's a drunk and a failure. When it comes from Megan, he breaks down and tells her the truth. This is part of why I don't think their marriage is exactly doomed.
posted by Sara C. at 8:36 PM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]


Are you forgetting that Mrs. Blankenship died in the office and had to be smuggled out?
posted by shakespeherian at 8:39 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


And she was the QUEEN OF PERVERSION
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]


TLo's weakness is that they are applying the same "let's rip the outfit" schadenfreude sensibility that made them popular (remember, this used to be a Project Runway-focused blog) to television criticism. That vibe doesn't always translate seamlessly from reality shows to scripted dramas. I also was turned off by their dismissive treatment of the drunken Draper "I don't love my kids" scene with Megan, but then again I was high on the Planet of the Apes reference, so I may not have seen that in the most objective light.

Re the Peaches Hate: It seems like it might be a variant of Betty hate. When it comes down to it, Peaches is a just a different type of woman who's surviving her marriage to a disgusting ogre in her own way. I wonder if Peaches inspires some dismissiveness because maybe we'd rather identify with the more modern woman model of the serious-drink-the-boys-under-the-table-like-Joan fierce woman or the sophisticated-worldly-no-illusions-Marie than the all-sunshine-girly-drink-drunk-traditional-silly-wife. Joan tried to play a similar deferential fluffy-wifey role (remember how much more girlish she was in her scenes at home with Dr. Greg Harris (née Rapist) in the earlier seasons?) and she ended up getting burned. Come to think of it, it's entirely possible that Joan's bestie, Not Heather Graham, could very well be a Peaches, too, when she was back home with her husband.

Maybe it's also a bit of the same intellectual hypocrisy of which I'm guilty every time I roll my eyes when I overhear the ladies at work discussing last night's episode of [INSERT AWFUL CBS DRAMA HERE] while I'm silently thinking to myself how sad it is that they cannot appreciate more sophisticated television art forms such as Mad Men or discuss social contract theory in the context of any particular episode of The Walking Dead, until I remind myself that spending hours and hours thinking about any TeeVee character is pretty ridiculous in the Big Picture so hey, self, get a check on that snobbish nonsense.

Now that I think about it, for as much flak as this show got in the early days about it's treatment of women, the men come off looking far worse. Look at the dearth of monogamous male characters in Mad Men besides Ken Cosgrove From Accounts. I'd have a hard time imagining Ginsneto cheating, but he's more married to his work at this stage. Stan would be too baked to bother cheating.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:43 PM on May 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


She didn't do it on purpose.

Her use on the show was comedic, and yes, that storyline was ridiculous as all hell. But as a person, she seemed OK.

When I say Herb is possibly the most ridiculous person on the show, I mean as a person.

(The more I think about it, the more I settle on plagiarist guy as the Most Ridiculous, though. Ginsberg is also in the running.)
posted by Sara C. at 8:45 PM on May 8, 2013


'ARE YOU GOING TO THE TOILET?'
posted by shakespeherian at 8:48 PM on May 8, 2013


Bob Benson is pretty ridiculous. The bit with the two coffees in Ken's office was so slapsticky. I expected to hear a laugh track and BOINGGG! Or something.

And by slapsticky I mean awesome and actually pretty on-brand for the series.
posted by sweetkid at 8:48 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


Can I just say that I am absolutely FLOORED that T & Lo didn't draw a parallel between Megan's bathrobe in the scene before the dinner with her mom, and Betty's "sad marriage coat"?
posted by Sara C. at 8:48 PM on May 8, 2013


OK, yeah, Bob Benson is definitely on the shortlist of Most Ridiculous Mad Men character.
posted by Sara C. at 8:49 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Peaches hate is just us having Protagonist Identification issues, we're meant to identify with the characters we've spent so much time with, Don, Megan and Marie and not with the established boorish Herb and his vaudeville comedy wife. But as the scene goes on and gets more awkward, you understand why Marie is being why she is but you also notice that the character you're supposed to hate is trying hard, in her facile way, to make things better, the problem is it's an unequal fight, the bleak terrors of our mains vs. these strawmen outer borough buffoons. They didn't stand a chance.
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on May 8, 2013 [4 favorites]


Bob Benson is a Time Lord.
posted by The Whelk at 8:50 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


I also felt like Don had very little power in that scene in the kitchen. He always seems to retreat within himself when he is around "family things" because he doesn't understand family. But T&Lo said Megan was set apart from that scene because she was wearing black and blue/green is adultery.
posted by sweetkid at 8:50 PM on May 8, 2013


Dr. Greg Harris (née Rapist)

Oh dear, is that his preferred name? I've been sending their Christmas cards to Dr. and Mrs. Greg Rapist-Harris.
posted by donajo at 8:51 PM on May 8, 2013 [8 favorites]


(How likely is it that Peaches and Herb know Tony Soprano's parents? Livia Soprano would fucking eat Peaches for dessert with a glass of anisette.)
posted by Sara C. at 8:52 PM on May 8, 2013


Ugh even Peaches doesn't deserve Livia Soprano. OMG talk about bad mothers, Livia makes Betty look like Carol Brady.
posted by sweetkid at 8:53 PM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


So my uncomfort at the dinner is the unease in seeing a vastly unequal fight. The combined mental maze-like darkness of the knife-sharp Draper marriage with Marie as Mage Support against sunny, small town, small-time goons? That's not a fight, it's a murder.
posted by The Whelk at 8:56 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Stan would be too baked to bother cheating.

Stan is from the "Gas, Grass, or Ass" school of relationships.

Then again, he could definitely be pretty loyal to his Old Lady, being a right-on and far-out type of cat.

I can't wait until we hear a character use the term "ball". I mean I'm almost 100% positive it's going to be Stan, but Ginsberg or Abe could surprise me yet. I think Harry is too stodgy to say that, but he could try to be more "with it" and embarrass himself a la the Stones concert.
posted by Sara C. at 8:56 PM on May 8, 2013




Yea but I like looking at the layers in the scene rather than laying down a verdict of PEACHES IS A DUMDUM. There was more going on there.
posted by sweetkid at 8:57 PM on May 8, 2013


What's weird is that "ball" came back, I heard it all the time in the mid 00s and then it vanished.
posted by The Whelk at 8:58 PM on May 8, 2013


Really?

I only ever encounter it in verb form as a typo for "bawl".

Though the times I see said typo are my favorite times, ever. I really love assuming the person meant "fuck" instead of "cry".

I mean, there I was, shtupping my eyes out...

Oh, man, I was FUCKING after last night's episode of The Vampire Diaries...
posted by Sara C. at 9:00 PM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]


Harry is too stodgy to say that, but he could try to be more "with it" and embarrass himself a la the Stones concert.

This made me think you were saying Harry is going to go to Altamont. But that's a year and a half away.
posted by sweetkid at 9:01 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce + Holloway - Pryce

+ Campbell?
+ Crane? (no)

+ Cutler Gleason & Chaough - Gleason

+ Olson?

-------

Sterling Cooper Draper Holloway Cutler Chaough Campbell Olson

SC4DHO

--------

Your speculation requested.

Side note, someone on Twitter turned me on to @PeteCampbell_NY, which does a freakishly good job of copping Pete's voice and which corresponds a great deal with a large cross section of MM character Twitter accounts, many of which appear to also be very well voiced. Anyone got news or info regarding this Twitter cast? Is it unitary or fan-driven?
posted by mwhybark at 9:02 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Harry goes to Altamont and tries to "ball" a chick but instead gets elbowed in the face by a Hell's Angel.
posted by Sara C. at 9:03 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't know but a few years ago all the twitter handles had a cocktail party and you could go and it was awesome and they had canapes and Trudy was very sweet and OMG I'm a nerd don't tell anyone
posted by sweetkid at 9:04 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm intrigued by Altamont since it's always billed as "the end of hippie culture" which always seemed fake and poseur to me anyway. And then there were all those "hippie chicks" in the 90s who wore apron shirts to outdoor music festivals and had bumper stickers that said "Mean People Suck"
posted by sweetkid at 9:06 PM on May 8, 2013


Considering our cast is on the opposite side of the social spectrum we have to think more "events that effected really rich white people on the east coast"
posted by The Whelk at 9:08 PM on May 8, 2013


My guess for the new agency is that they go with a completely different name that is not person based. That said, is there precedent for that in the advertising world? Literally every ad firm I can name is names or a bunch of random letters. (Saatchi & Saatchi, Y&R, BBDO, Ogilvy, etc)

If they were a Hollywood talent agency, this would be the point where they'd go with a nondescript name like United Talent Agency, International Creative Management, Paradigm, Endeavour, etc.
posted by Sara C. at 9:08 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


+ Olson?

Seriously doubt it. Peggy's going to be copy chief, not head of creative. I don't think she makes partner.

(Plus, we had some heavy foreshadowing of awkwardness between Peggy & her Two Bosses. Making her partner would be a different dynamic completely.)
posted by torticat at 9:10 PM on May 8, 2013


Oh yeah! I almost forgot: Ted kissing Peggy echoes Megan's maid character being kissed in her show.
posted by mwhybark at 9:11 PM on May 8, 2013


Don will suggest they call it "Horizons"
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 PM on May 8, 2013



Considering our cast is on the opposite side of the social spectrum we have to think more "events that effected really rich white people on the east coast"


I know but hadn't you heard Harry goes to LA a lot he tells us all the time
posted by sweetkid at 9:12 PM on May 8, 2013



Oh yeah! I almost forgot: Ted kissing Peggy echoes Megan's maid character being kissed in her show.

how?
posted by sweetkid at 9:12 PM on May 8, 2013


all the twitter handles had a cocktail party and you could go and it was awesome

Is there a Storify or something? OMG I'm requesting links to years-old interactive Mad Men fanfic.
posted by mwhybark at 9:14 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


is there precedent for that in the advertising world? Literally every ad firm I can name is names or a bunch of random letters. (Saatchi & Saatchi, Y&R, BBDO, Ogilvy, etc)

Yes (my company is not named after a person). A lot of old school companies are named after people though. Newer ones (internet age) are mostly not.
posted by sweetkid at 9:14 PM on May 8, 2013


If any character goes to fucking Altamont to be an obnoxious poseur, it's Harry.

He will run into Paul, who is the Hell's Angel who accidentally just elbowed him in the face. Paul will try to apologize to Harry for giving him a nosebleed, but it won't matter because the chick will be long gone, man.
posted by Sara C. at 9:14 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


how?

Employee inappropriately kissed by employer, maybe (or clearly) likes it.
posted by mwhybark at 9:15 PM on May 8, 2013


They will then do a hit of acid.

Harry will expect to have the proverbial "bad trip" but will feel nothing.
posted by Sara C. at 9:16 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Hang on...Miss Blankenship dated Mr. Roboto?
*Head asplodes*
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:16 PM on May 8, 2013


As long as Sally does not go to Woodstock I mean I cannot stress this enough
posted by sweetkid at 9:17 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


What is there in 1969 for then 15? year old Sally to become entranced by?

(i actually have a Sally Is Monied 70s quasi-liberal who become a coke-hound Regan Republican in my head already)
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think that if Sally goes, it will not be in the guise of being a hippy. Or in some kind of groovy way where she has a warm fuzzy experience and finds herself.

I think she and a possibly older friend will hitch a ride, they will get separated, and Bad Shit will happen to Sally that turns her into a Republican forever.

Or Sally will secretly get tickets to Woodstock and hatch a big Plot to go, but will be caught at the last minute.

SALLY ANN DRAPER ARE THESE BIRTH CONTROL PILLS? WHERE DID YOU GET THESE?

*Angry phone call to Don/Megan Residence*
posted by Sara C. at 9:20 PM on May 8, 2013


I'm with you on that The Whelk. She is already becoming a mini Betty in ways.
posted by sweetkid at 9:20 PM on May 8, 2013


SALLY ANN DRAPER ARE THESE BIRTH CONTROL PILLS? WHERE DID YOU GET THESE?

You think? Betty is kind of inconsistent about Sally's female milestones:

- Makeup: Supportive
- First kiss: Supportive
-Masturbation: NONONO
- Period: Supportive
posted by sweetkid at 9:22 PM on May 8, 2013


But seriously they really cannot do 1969 on Mad Men without at least mentioning Woodstock and/or Altamont. Also the Manson murders. Maybe some high profile "27 Club" deaths like Jimi, Janis, and/or Brian Jones.

I don't think they necessarily will devote episodes to any of this stuff, but they pretty much have to be mentioned.

Just like I'm pretty sure they will skip the actual RFK assassination, but you can't not mention that.
posted by Sara C. at 9:23 PM on May 8, 2013


I don't think Betty is cool enough to take Sally to get on birth control.

I mean, my (much cooler) mother was not cool enough for that, in 1996.
posted by Sara C. at 9:24 PM on May 8, 2013


Yeah the last thing anyone wants is for the last season of the show to be just a Classic Rock station because jesus.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:24 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Keep in mind too that Betty's main worry for Sally is that she will be "fast".

Well, that or disfigured in a horrible accident.
posted by Sara C. at 9:25 PM on May 8, 2013


Yes, Bob Benson must be a Time Lord. The TARDIS-blue suit is a dead giveaway. Yet another genius move by Jamie Bryant.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:29 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sally in 1975 at CBGB. I'm nearly sure we've discussed this; I believe the consensus was she'll prefer the Talking Heads over the Ramones on visits from Yale or possibly Brown, although, what, Bryn Mawr must be considered I guess. Where did Henry go to school?
posted by mwhybark at 9:30 PM on May 8, 2013


(Also if Betty is being "supportive" of Sally's makeup choices they both need a visit from fucking Mary Kay)
posted by Sara C. at 9:30 PM on May 8, 2013


No not her makeup now, when she was six and wanted to try
Betty's makeup
posted by sweetkid at 9:32 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't think Sally is going to a Seven Sisters.

Though I guess it would be interesting if she were a lesbian.
posted by Sara C. at 9:33 PM on May 8, 2013


But imagine that acress's new resume!

New Rochelle Playhouse - Vagina Monologues - Ensemble
TV - Boardwalk Empire - Girl in Speakeasy
TV - Mad Men - THE BIGGEST BLACKEST PROSTITUTE EVER
Special Skills: Tap, Jazz, juggling ferrets

They should call the new agency Frank. Or Assholes Incorporated.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:38 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Idly looking for info on the "top 25" agencies in 1968 NYC I found this fascinating 1978 report (PDF) on minority employment in the city industry, which begins with an analysis of a 1967 survey showing about 5% aggregate black and hispanic representation.
posted by mwhybark at 9:38 PM on May 8, 2013


Are we doing an RFK Death Watch Pool yet? Will it be mentioned merely in passing or given more coverage? This next episode or not? Finale-worthy? Peggy's "I like Bobby Kennedy" remark WILL NOT GO UNMENTIONED!
posted by mynameisluka at 9:39 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sally goes to a Nice Seven Sisters College and maybe goes into the city for parties but it's not her thing, please, despite liking coke, everyone is too weird and dirty, she doesn't want to be like her Mom so she goes headfirst into fiance and trading, she has shoulder pads and eats sushi for lunch - she's stumping for Regan's pro-business policy and smug that she's not a victim like her mother or a hippie dupe like everyone else her age, shes a master of the universe, and has the pantsuits to prove it.
posted by The Whelk at 9:39 PM on May 8, 2013


Also if she goes to CBGB she might run into her ex stepmother, which, AWKWARD amirite?
posted by Sara C. at 9:41 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


But: argh, no agency names.
posted by mwhybark at 9:41 PM on May 8, 2013


OMG below 14th I don't have my passport.
posted by The Whelk at 9:42 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


I don't know why I'm fixated on this idea of Sally growing up to this well-educated, successful business lady yuppie ice queen who talks a lot about feminism and equality but is a staunch business Republican with lots of upper crust NYC biases and affectations.
posted by The Whelk at 9:45 PM on May 8, 2013


Like in trying not to be her mother, she kinda becomes her father.

Bobby is a yurt somewhere.
posted by The Whelk at 9:46 PM on May 8, 2013


Because Martha Stewart and Ina Garten* had to come from somewhere, I guess.

*Was she ever actually in finance, or just married to a finance dude? I make an effort not to know much about the lives of Food Network personalities aside from Sandra Lee.
posted by Sara C. at 9:46 PM on May 8, 2013


Bobby is a yurt somewhere.

That is not a typo.
posted by Sara C. at 9:47 PM on May 8, 2013


He is literally a yurt.

Gene has been left in the car since 1971.
posted by The Whelk at 9:48 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


(also, yes ahahaha Ina Garten is perfect, spend your retirement years with ONLY THE BEST stuff. Martha was a little too...WILL TO POWER there, she hired her own parents as servants, she was Joan Crawfording it up. I don't think Sally is an evil overlord, just a nice rich girl with odd parents.)
posted by The Whelk at 9:50 PM on May 8, 2013


It's too bad Sally isn't going to be old enough to help that jerkass found the company that would later be Urban Outfitters, Anthropolgie, and Free People.
posted by Sara C. at 9:51 PM on May 8, 2013


NYT dealbook on agency IPOs from 1962-1973, with a link to a paper on the IPOs (PDF, marked 'Draft - not for distribution).

argh! Still no names!
posted by mwhybark at 9:51 PM on May 8, 2013


Things I learned today:

Ina Garten's childhood is actually very similar to Sally Draper's.

Ina Garten was once a White House nuclear policy analyst.

Ina Garten spent four months backpacking through France in the 70's.

Ina Garten's husband, Jeffrey, is considered significant enough to have his own Wikipedia page.
posted by Sara C. at 9:58 PM on May 8, 2013


And oh yeah! the pic of Roger and Don at the bottom of the dealbook story reminded me that the Chevy location shot, with the cars, was made in a hallway of the Hollywood Biltmore (second post on page, image shows what I think is a reverse of the shot used in the show) in LA, the site for the first couple decades of Oscar ceremonies and previously used on the show as well. I strongly suspect the restaurant sequence with the loathesome Jaguar guy was shot at the Biltmore too; the twisted-finish pillars visible in both scenes match.
posted by mwhybark at 10:03 PM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]


Returning to thread to defend Ina Garten. She's no Betty.
posted by maggieb at 10:08 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


(Who said she was?)

I thought we were talking about how Sally would grow up to be a relatively "establishment" figure, readily accept her privileged background, etc. Ina Garten, as awesome as she may be, is the poster child for that sort of thing. The Baby Boomer who grew up to work for the Ford Administration. Patti Smith she ain't.
posted by Sara C. at 10:11 PM on May 8, 2013


Are we doing an RFK Death Watch Pool yet? Will it be mentioned merely in passing or given more coverage? This next episode or not? Finale-worthy? Peggy's "I like Bobby Kennedy" remark WILL NOT GO UNMENTIONED!

This past episode was set around three weeks before RFK's assassination. This season has been jumping about a month between each episode. And after the merger, I kinda of expect that Weiner will keep up the trend and it'll be mid-June next episode - rather than deal too much with the nitty gritty of how the two firms will merge. (After they formed SCDP, that was a season finale - so we skipped a lot of time between seasons while the new firm established itself.)

In fact, I think Peggy's over obvious mention of RFK means we'll miss it altogether. And she'll mention it in passing.
posted by crossoverman at 11:11 PM on May 8, 2013


I had this feeling that RFK and Ted were getting conflated in Peggy's paint-addled brain -- like, she certainly does love Kennedy, but the remark came out with unexpected passion because she couldn't talk about her crush. I've always liked Peggy's loyalty to the Kennedys, how she still had that enshrined photo up well into 1968. Wonder if she'll put it up after the move, or if this is the moment that she realizes it's been almost five years.

I have a wacky hope that there's a nod to The Prisoner next week (which should be set about the time it airs in the U.S.; we're coming into range). There are some resonances (Sixties spy camp, counterculture and establishment collapsing together, an air of panic and exhaustion) and some contrasts (Prisoner's sterility, its complete otherworldly weirdness) that might play interestingly off some of the characters. Not sure exactly what they'd do with it, but that's why I don't write the show.

(When The Prisoner wants to use a Beatles song, it gets it for free because the Beatles are fans. That's a very different kind of hardcore from Weiner paying $250,000 for one, although both are hardcore acts.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:51 PM on May 8, 2013


SALLY ANN DRAPER

It's actually "Sally Beth Draper".

posted by orange swan at 5:49 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


OK, yeah, Bob Benson is definitely on the shortlist of Most Ridiculous Mad Men character.

Bob Benson is some kind of supremely evil figure. Mark my words. I seriously sometimes wonder if he represents death in some way, lurking around like that.
posted by anastasiav at 7:00 AM on May 9, 2013 [4 favorites]


Bob is Loki, leaving Chaos behind him wherever he goes.
posted by misha at 7:04 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I find myself hoping that there is no narrative role that Bob Benson's going to play. I want him to be the elaborate set-up to a miniscule little joke. Basically Dr. Lyle Evans retold as a shaggy dog story, or something like that.
posted by .kobayashi. at 7:06 AM on May 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


In ten years everyone will be working for him, or dead by his hand.
posted by The Whelk at 7:20 AM on May 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


Bob Benson is the caretaker. He has always been the caretaker.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:23 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


No he's a soviet spy.

"Remember Sergi, Americans are happy all the time! always smiling! always helpful!"
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 AM on May 9, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think Christina Hendricks is kind of overhyped - sometimes I think she's not that good, but I realize I'm just reacting to the OMGAMAZINGJOAN haze everyone else seems to be in, and she is quite good on the show.

I agree, except about Elisabeth Moss.
posted by jeather at 8:00 AM on May 9, 2013


Fisticuffs it is, then.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:01 AM on May 9, 2013




Fisticuffs it is, then.

Yeah, I know, I'm the only person anywhere who doesn't like Peggy (though it's mostly that I don't like Elisabeth Moss and it bleeds through to every character she plays).
posted by jeather at 8:27 AM on May 9, 2013


I can't help but think RFK's assassination is going to be the breaking point for Abe and Peggy. Abe sees society at this point as fundamentally broken and needing pretty much a revolution. And Peggy haslaid down her marker as wanting stability. She's profiting handsomely from the current world. And it's also giving him stability. They won't be able to reconcile that.

Also, boy, Peggy's mom must grow more fond of Abe with every passing day, huh? "that boy will use you and then leave." So now, on top of having sex with what she sees as no commitment, he gets full room and board on her daughter's hard work.
posted by dry white toast at 9:17 AM on May 9, 2013


I don't know what to make of Abe these days. I'm not sure if he really wants revolution or not, and my guess is that he's less radical in 1968 than he was a few years ago.

For one thing, he's got his hopes pinned on McCarthy. Revolutionaries who saw society as fundamentally broken in 1968 were not "Neat And Clean For Eugene". They were forming cells like the Weather Underground and bombing military recruitment centers. They were thinking violent overthrow, not "The next President is definitely going to stop the war."

Secondly, he's now a reporter for the New York Times, not the Village Voice as he was when we met him. The Times has never been a radical paper, and in the 60's it was not the liberal voice of NYC print media as it is today. Prior to the mid/late 70's, the left-leaning mainstream paper in New York was the Post, of all things (shocking but true).

And keep in mind that Abe just nailed a HUGE story. I don't know for sure, but it's very possible that Abe ended up front page, above the fold, the wet dream of reporters everywhere. It is now officially not in his interest for society to be overthrown, because society includes institutions like the New York Times, which cuts his paychecks.

In a lot of ways, he's following the same trajectory as Peggy is, but in a slightly different way.

Now, it's very possible that he could take a sharp left turn and become more cynically radicalized. I can see the events of the upcoming Democratic Convention being a turning point for him. Regardless of his politics and where life is going to take him over the next couple years, I think the next few months are going to be hard on Peggy and Abe as a couple and a lot of the political events are going to throw their differences into stark relief.

But if they break up, I don't think it's necessarily going to be because Abe wants to overthrow society and Peggy is fundamentally conservative. I think -- as is typical of every Peggy storyline ever -- it's going to be a lot more nuanced than that.
posted by Sara C. at 9:38 AM on May 9, 2013 [6 favorites]


I think my "Sally Is Not Going To Woodstock" is "Abe Is Not As Wrong For Peggy As You Think".
posted by Sara C. at 9:57 AM on May 9, 2013


Secondly, he's now a reporter for the New York Times, not the Village Voice.

Thanks for calling my attention to that, Sara. I totally missed that point, and its a big deal.
posted by .kobayashi. at 9:59 AM on May 9, 2013


He went "to a riot in a tux," so I say close reading bears the thesis out.
posted by mwhybark at 10:05 AM on May 9, 2013


A point in favor of Abe going apeshit Streetfighting Man, on the other hand, is that the Democratic Convention hasn't happened yet. A lot of optimistic leftists who had their hopes pinned on McCarthy went to a very dark place after the events of the next few months (the assassination of RFK, the failure of McCarthy to win the Democratic nomination, the Chicago Seven, the student protests across Europe in the summer of '68, Nixon winning the election, etc).

That said, the ones who started bombing shit were mostly college students, not up and coming reporters for mainstream newspapers. So I still think Abe is relatively safe.

(I really wish I hadn't gotten rid of my copy of Todd Gitlin's The Whole World Is Watching in the big cross-country move...)
posted by Sara C. at 10:10 AM on May 9, 2013


I also want to know if those hoodlums on the stoop that Abe is OK with are members of the Young Lords.

That said, I'm not sure the Young Lords were active in NYC yet in the spring of '68, or whether the West Side would have been part of their turf. But a lot of the stuff Abe is talking about in "For Immediate Release" sounds like their bread and butter.
posted by Sara C. at 10:14 AM on May 9, 2013


(BTW if anyone wants to know way too fucking much about the 60's New Left, you can feel free to memail me or come over for a glass of wine on my porch or something.)
posted by Sara C. at 10:16 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I can't help but think RFK's assassination is going to be the breaking point for Abe and Peggy.

A bit of a tangent, but I've been wondering the same thing. I recently read an interesting biography of "Maverick" actor Jack Kelly, and it seems like the emotional toll of the Kennedy/King/Kennedy assassinations and surrounding events was probably the nail in the coffin of his first marriage. They were very politically active, idealistic, were at the March on Washington and the whole nine yards, and it was just too much.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:36 AM on May 9, 2013


(BTW if anyone wants to know way too fucking much about the 60's New Left, you can feel free to memail me or come over for a glass of wine on my porch or something.)

BICOASTAL FAIL.
posted by sweetkid at 10:39 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


If I was still in New York I would take you on a bike ride past the house in the village that the Weather Underground blew up.
posted by Sara C. at 10:40 AM on May 9, 2013


Do you also know a lot about the Paris riots of '68?
posted by sweetkid at 10:41 AM on May 9, 2013


Nothing more than what is in the movie The Dreamers.
posted by Sara C. at 10:42 AM on May 9, 2013


Pfft. Friggin' undergrads ruin everything.
posted by maryr at 10:42 AM on May 9, 2013


Sara I was about to write and take you up on your porch offer but you're seemingly no longer on the Awesome Coast.
posted by Rory Marinich at 10:52 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


How am I not in this thread yet? Hi!

I was over the moon about the cars theme in this episode. I also liked how it dovetailed nicely with the airplane themes...the Mustang, Detroit, manufacturing, the war...all great little connections floating around in the background. They showed how transportation is changing, without being overly explicit about it.

I've been wondering for days now about the new agency name. Just cannot wait to find out. My money is on an adjective or noun, not a surname mashup. That would be so outrageous and forward thinking for the time and Peggy could pull something like that out under the pressure. WHAT WILL SHE COME UP WITH???!?! gah
posted by iamkimiam at 10:52 AM on May 9, 2013


I've been thinking a lot about the cars in the last episode and ALL the cars ever, in any episode.

Especially the early season episode where Don goes into the Cadillac (?) dealership and buys a car basically because he can.

Also the episode in California where Don has the conversations with the hot rod kids.

Also the Honda episode, though that's a motorbike.

Also the WV lemon ad.
posted by Sara C. at 11:06 AM on May 9, 2013


Also Don let Glen drive the car.

Also Don and Bobbie's car crash.

Also Betty's car crash.

Also Bobby's "when I'm 40, you'll be dead" line to Don took place in a car.
posted by sweetkid at 11:11 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don Draper's garden of automobile metaphors!
posted by The Whelk at 11:15 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Lane's murder Jaguar.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:19 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Betty puking in the car.
posted by mynameisluka at 11:27 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don abandons Megan at Howard Johnson by driving off in a huff.
posted by donajo at 11:30 AM on May 9, 2013


Lane finding the wallet in the taxi.
posted by sweetkid at 11:37 AM on May 9, 2013


Sally driving while Grandpa Gene works the pedals.

Grandpa Gene doesn't show up in the car to pick up Sally and Bobby.

Because he's dead.
posted by dyobmit at 11:40 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


We haven't seen much of Peggy in cars, have we? Aside from the priest driving her to the subway in S2.
posted by sweetkid at 11:42 AM on May 9, 2013


Sally driving while Grandpa Gene works the pedals.

Grandpa Gene doesn't show up in the car to pick up Sally and Bobby.


Also, re Grandpa Gene, Don keeps William's car and ships them back to Philly on the train in exchange for watching Gene.
posted by sweetkid at 11:43 AM on May 9, 2013


Peggy sat on Abe's lap in a crowded car coming home from the beach.
posted by dyobmit at 11:43 AM on May 9, 2013


Don picks up hitchhikers

Don drives alongside the jogging teacher

Peggy picks up Don after accident
posted by mikepop at 11:43 AM on May 9, 2013


Henry crushes Don's boxes with the car in the Draper house garage.
posted by dyobmit at 11:44 AM on May 9, 2013


I don't think those Peggy scenes are super meaningful though, in terms of "things happening in the car."
posted by sweetkid at 11:45 AM on May 9, 2013


I don't know if any of these scenes are meaningful, I was just personally feeling briefly like re-watching old episodes so many times with boxed wine was finally coming in handy.

Weiner said in an interview recently he likes using elevators for scenes, but it's also conveniently a useful trick for a show that doesn't have a huge budget. Maybe cars are the same?
posted by dyobmit at 11:52 AM on May 9, 2013


Is a riding lawnmower a car?
posted by bondcliff at 11:57 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I was just personally feeling briefly like re-watching old episodes so many times with boxed wine was finally coming in handy.

Rewatching old episodes is always important and I encourage it heartily.

Boxed wine I dunno.

Yeah, elevators are definitely useful for themes in scenes, especially in New York where people spend lots of time in them.

Cars I always associated specifically with Don, since he's in some ways an emblem of the "reinvent yourself" "freedom of the open road" part of the "American Dream" but now I'm seeing connections to other characters, namely other Drapers and Lane.
posted by sweetkid at 11:57 AM on May 9, 2013


A lot of time on TV, when you want two characters to have a conversation (or some other important bit of business that isn't very cinematic), you put them in a car. Suddenly, they're doing something! There's stuff to look at! You can throw in other important bits of information, like what kind of car they drive, where they're going, what the landscape looks like, etc. It's a lot more dynamic than just having them standing in a room.

So I think some of these car moments fall into that category. Especially the Peggy ones, like sitting on Abe's lap or talking to the young priest in season 2. How do you put "Peggy hangs out with her friends and maybe likes a boy and has a little fun" onscreen without taking up a lot of time, but in a way that is visually interesting? They're a bunch of proto-hippies piling into the car after a day at the beach! And Peggy sits on a boy's lap!

Elevators can also be used in the same way, but a little less dynamic. Still, it gives you excuses to let characters who don't normally interact a reason to be around each other. It also gives you an excuse to lay down a bunch of information without needing to come up with business for people to be doing -- almost the opposite of why you might put a scene in a car.

But then a lot of the other car stuff uses cars in ways that are much more specific. I also think the elevator is also a big symbol, I mean remember the empty shaft?
posted by Sara C. at 12:21 PM on May 9, 2013


If we may turn our attention to puppies before the next episode...

Someone mentioned (I think in the previous thread) that the "I love puppies" line/delivery seemed out of character for Don. I'd like to posit that it shows a part of the character we only ever catch a small glimpse of: (Temporarily) Unburdened Don.

The Jaguar dinner is rapidly entering a death spiral. Peaches is dominating the conversation, Roger is MIA, Marie is openly insulting people to the point where it's obvious no matter what language you speak. At some point, Don realizes that it will be over with Jaguar by the night's end. Immediately he feels a great weight lifted. He hates working with Herb on a professional level. He hates Herb on a personal level. He hates how they got the account. He hates what Joan did. He might even tie the account back to Lane Pryce (who brought in the account) and hates being reminded of his death. The feeling is so euphoric he temporarily is free from all his other demons and jumps into the conversation, happily talking about puppies.

We saw another Jaguar-related glimpse of him like this just a few episodes earlier. As he deliberately throws the "regional Jaguar dealer resource reallocation" pitch, he gets more and more into it and goes well beyond what he needed to do. Maybe he's already thinking that it's the beginning of the end for Jaguar there.

A slightly more sloppy version of this can be viewed in the "Cure for the common breakfast" pitch scene where his temporary unburdening is unfortunately fueled only by a massive amount of alcohol.

Plus, he's just being truthful - don't forget he comes back to the abandoned birthday party with a puppy to make it all right (in his mind, because if he loves puppies everyone must love puppies).

Finally, "I love puppies!" is an obvious anagram of "Evil, I so pep up!" but that's probably just a coincidence.
posted by mikepop at 1:05 PM on May 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


We saw another Jaguar-related glimpse of him like this just a few episodes earlier. As he deliberately throws the "regional Jaguar dealer resource reallocation" pitch, he gets more and more into it and goes well beyond what he needed to do. Maybe he's already thinking that it's the beginning of the end for Jaguar there.

I didn't read it this way at all. My take from watching that scene is that Don is being strategic. SCDP is strongarmed into arguing for Herb's idea (despite the fact that the Jaguar national people don't want it and it doesn't do anything for SCDP either), so they argue for it in a way that makes it clear what a stupid idea it is. Don takes it further than he absolutely has to, but that's kind of the point. He really wants to underline how short-sighted and counterproductive Herb's idea is.
posted by Sara C. at 1:13 PM on May 9, 2013


I agree he is being strategic to defuse Herb's suggestion, but at the same time I think as he gets going he is sincerely taking delight in doing so. I think he takes it farther than he needs to not necessarily to underline the point (it's clear he has the other Jaguar people convinced it is a horrible idea and going farther actually reduces his plausible deniability with Herb) but rather because he finds himself feeling greatly relieved as he goes along.
posted by mikepop at 1:23 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh, for sure.
posted by Sara C. at 1:25 PM on May 9, 2013


I was the person who said it was out of character for him to say, "I love puppies," but I don't think he was feeling unburdened or happy when he said. He looked bored and distracted and the line seemed for comic effect entirely like in a sitcom. Though your alternative theory is interesting. I just don't see evidence for it, or for Don supposedly loving puppies himself. He brought the dog back after the birthday party, sure, but I think he was just being drunk, impulsive and selfish, knowing he was going to do something that would piss off Betty but make himself look awesome in the kids' eyes. I don't think it had anything to do with the dog itself.
posted by sweetkid at 1:39 PM on May 9, 2013


The bigger question is, what ever happened to that dog? It's been seasons since we've seen it.
posted by COBRA! at 1:44 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was in the vintage shop today going " no too...bob...stan...pete
.ugh ginsberg."
posted by The Whelk at 2:23 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


The bigger question is, what ever happened to that dog? It's been seasons since we've seen it.

It's running the mean streets of NYC with Duck's dog.
posted by drezdn at 2:33 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think Don was just entertaining himself, fucking with people. Cheap thrills at a dinner that is far off the rails and your wife has got more dress above the table than below it.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:33 PM on May 9, 2013


awww Duck's dog.
posted by sweetkid at 2:34 PM on May 9, 2013



I think Don was just entertaining himself, fucking with people.


How is that fucking with people?
posted by sweetkid at 2:34 PM on May 9, 2013


Bob is like the grandparents from Mulholland Drive, or maybe the Commendatore from Don Giovanni. The last scene of Mad Men will be Bob Benson dragging Don Draper into the gaping maw of Hell. I'm certain of it.
posted by invitapriore at 2:34 PM on May 9, 2013 [4 favorites]


My guess was that he was flailing, trying to keep the conversation going because nobody else seemed willing to do it.

Again, I can't help but contrast it to the dinner last season where Megan and Don closed a deal with a client in perfect harmony.
posted by Sara C. at 2:46 PM on May 9, 2013


My guess was that he was flailing, trying to keep the conversation going because nobody else seemed willing to do it.

Yea, but that's what I found so out of character. It seemed like he was throwing Peaches a lifeline, and when does he ever do anything like that?

Again, I can't help but contrast it to the dinner last season where Megan and Don closed a deal with a client in perfect harmony.

Yea totally. But then Megan is perfect and good at everything, aintcha heard?

(I like how they had Sylvia actually say that ('you're good at everything, aren't you?' last episode).
posted by sweetkid at 2:53 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


And yet Megan was there for this dinner, just sitting there looking like a bale of tinsel.
posted by Sara C. at 2:57 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Wow, I had such a different read on Don there. I don't think he was being helpful or nice at all. I feel like I recognize exactly what he's doing there. This is something I used to do a lot when I was younger and had a lot of angst and contempt for certain people. People who I thought I was superior to in a certain (horrible and unfair) way. If I was stuck with them at say, a dinner table, I would sit there with this inner dialogue running in my head, very similar to Marie's sentiments in French (but not in French). But because it's outright mean to say such things to people, and I was bored and probably a somewhat disturbed individual, I would see how far I could take things. Maybe show some interest and see what they do with it. Especially if I could play with that edge of how ambiguously in/sincere I could make my voice. "I love puppies" is one of the most patronizing, empty, fuck you statements you could say there, I think. Especially with that smirky smile. It's not sincere at all and the one person it could mean anything too will take it as genuine. Which would further prove the motivation behind the statement, that Peaches is a trifling fool (she's not, really...she's just in over her head with horrible people at a horrible dinner arrangement with her pig husband). Don knows he's being mean, and Megan probably does as well. It's signaling, even if only to himself. It's a bored cat toying with a half-dead baby mouse. I see Don almost laughing there as he says it. He's so much more clever than "I love puppies." He's a word man, a marketing genius...I love puppies is a pitch to amuse himself as he gets ready to jump off this sinking ship.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:58 PM on May 9, 2013 [9 favorites]


a bale of tinsel.

This phrase is fresh genius. What is its provenance?
posted by sweetkid at 2:59 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


I might be a bit cynical.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:59 PM on May 9, 2013


Sara C's brain.
posted by Sara C. at 3:03 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


You might be right, iamkimiam, I just don't really see it. I'll have to think about it. I just don't see what's toying about saying that at that moment. It's what she wanted to hear. if anything I could see he was being mean to MARIE by encouraging Peaches to keep going about a topic that was clearly enraging Marie.

I do enjoy that we've spent so much time analyzing a phrase that is nothing but "I love puppies." I mean, that's it. That's the whole thing. Marvelous.
posted by sweetkid at 3:04 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm with iamkimiam. He's playing that game where you toe the line of just how much contempt you can show for someone, especially someone who you think is oblivious, while retaining plausible deniability as to whether you're being an asshole.
posted by invitapriore at 3:04 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sara C's brain

I am going to use it all the time all the time.
posted by sweetkid at 3:05 PM on May 9, 2013


I like that reading, invitapriore. I think that's also what's happening a moment later when it's him and Herb at the table, and Herb is like "I want this wordsmith car salesman kid to approve your work for us from now on" and Don takes out his business card writes something on it, and says "This is who's handling your account from now on."

He doesn't say, "Fuck this, Draper out." He's a smarmy dick about it. I don't know that it's out of character, or maybe just a smidge too precious, but it's of a piece with "I love puppies."

Speaking of, WTF do you guys think he wrote on the card? Bob Benson?
posted by Sara C. at 3:07 PM on May 9, 2013


Ken Cosgrove.
posted by drezdn at 3:08 PM on May 9, 2013


That's why Ken got a call from him the next day.
posted by drezdn at 3:09 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Lyle Evans.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:10 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yea definitely Cosgrove.
posted by sweetkid at 3:10 PM on May 9, 2013


I want this wordsmith car salesman kid to approve your work for us from now on

That was one of the more realistic things that happens in advertising btw. That one burned, too close to home.
posted by sweetkid at 3:11 PM on May 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


Oh yeah. Having worked in a web design shop I cringed at that one too.
posted by invitapriore at 3:14 PM on May 9, 2013


We've all been Peaches. It's like when you're rambling on to someone, getting carried away with a topic you really care about. And then they say "How very interesting!" If you think they're sincere, you might go on. If you think it's a polite social cue to STFU, you might change the subject. Maybe while imagining punching them in the face (depending on your ego and maturity level (or theirs in making the statement), even if you think they're right). Or excuse yourself to the bathroom, whatever.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:15 PM on May 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


Oh yeah. Having worked in a web design shop I cringed at that one too.

Especially because you can't suavely fire the client and say don't sit down we're leaving to your short skirted spouse and then flounce out.

No, you have to do the thing.
posted by sweetkid at 3:18 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


We've all been Peaches. It's like when you're rambling on to someone, getting carried away with a topic you really care about.

Yeah, see, for me when this happens I am usually talking about Mad Men. Betty, specifically.
posted by sweetkid at 3:19 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, reminds me of what I call "the wife round" during hell projects when someone's wife becomes suddenly VERY INTERESTED in all the copy. (I run a small agency/am a copywriter.)
posted by mynameisluka at 3:20 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


I love Betty.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:22 PM on May 9, 2013


Speaking of, WTF do you guys think he wrote on the card? Bob Benson?

For a weird second (because I couldn't help but read some of the discussion before I actually got to watch the episode) my mind went to Teddy Chaough, but I grant that that makes negative sense and Cosgrove seems like the most likely answer.
posted by invitapriore at 3:22 PM on May 9, 2013


I love Betty.

Me too and I can talk about it forever as you can see in this thread and every other Mad Men thread.
posted by sweetkid at 3:23 PM on May 9, 2013


Speaking of, WTF do you guys think he wrote on the card? Bob Benson?

I had thought Cosgrove, too, but it occurred to me reading this thread that maybe he took down the name Herb gave him. Chris Fawcett. "Kid's so good, give the account to him."
posted by torticat at 3:35 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I have a plan, we put Sarah C's brain in a jar....
posted by The Whelk at 3:51 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Speaking of cars, I can't wait for season seven's Chappaquiddick episode! Or maybe, given the dates, that can somehow be combined with the Apollo 11 lands on the moon story.

"We're all in Chappaquiddick, but some of us are looking at the stars."

Do it, Weiner!
posted by crossoverman at 4:28 PM on May 9, 2013


Yeah, reminds me of what I call "the wife round" during hell projects when someone's wife becomes suddenly VERY INTERESTED in all the copy. (I run a small agency/am a copywriter.)

Yeah, all those wives with their thoughts and opinions! The horror.

Man, it's tough business being a wife. You're denigrated for having thoughts and ideas and a brain, but if you don't, you're Peaches. OMG, what a ditz, etc.
posted by purpleclover at 4:36 PM on May 9, 2013


I would say the spousal round (for the record, I'm a woman), but somehow it always ends up being a nitpicky man's even nitpickier wife. The wife round is usually an indicator that the project has gone so far off the rails that people's families are getting involved.

I didn't think Peaches was a ditz as much as a miserable sidekick, working valiantly to smooth over a horrific social situation.
posted by mynameisluka at 4:56 PM on May 9, 2013


that maybe he took down the name Herb gave him

That was my take on it. Make it look like he was taking Herb seriously and writing down the name for reference, then just hand it right back to him.

This scene is all about his delight in getting rid of Herb. I don't think he's being mean to Peaches; he's just encouraging her to go on because he knows it's annoying Herb. Who's supposed to be steering this meeting? Herb doesn't want to be the one to start, Roger is a no-show, so it falls to Don. Instead, he's all for more puppy stories. Finally, it's Peaches who decides she's had enough of this and takes control by declaring she and the others are leaving the table so they can just get on with it already.

I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek earlier talking about Don bringing home the dog. I do not, in fact, think this was driven by his love of puppies. And as someone else asked, where is the all-night dog pound in Ossining?
posted by mikepop at 4:57 PM on May 9, 2013


Don Draper, puppy snatcher.
posted by The Whelk at 5:06 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Can you imagine what would have happened at that dinner if Roger had shown up?
posted by iamkimiam at 5:34 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't think he's being mean to Peaches; he's just encouraging her to go on because he knows it's annoying Herb.

Ok, I'm with you on this.
posted by sweetkid at 5:40 PM on May 9, 2013


Yeah, I can see that angle, too. That's probably more Don's style as well...getting under Herb's skin and ensuring that he has the shittiest night possible, on all possible fronts.
posted by iamkimiam at 6:13 PM on May 9, 2013


Speaking of Roger, I don't think this was intentional but that moment where he bursts in the room as all the partners are discussing Don firing Jaguar reminded me of that scene from an earlier season, maybe when Burt Peterson was getting fired, where Roger also disrupts an unhappy meeting with inappropriate levity. I really love those moments.
posted by invitapriore at 9:20 PM on May 9, 2013


Of course, January Jones also suffers from the comparison to Jon Hamm who is a pretty termendous comic actor.)

Oh god. I remembered this yesterday and started laughing all over again. A man making weird noises shouldn't be that funny.
posted by mippy at 4:06 AM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


(I forgot that SNL has the guy from Portlandia in it...)
posted by mippy at 4:07 AM on May 10, 2013


I wonder if there's supposed to be a similarity between Ted and Megan. Don has moved into a life-altering agreement with both of them without thinking about the consequences.
posted by drezdn at 6:21 AM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


There's a lot I don't understand about the whole merger business. Would all the other partners really just take the whole thing as such a fait accompli? We see people moving offices in previews so it look like it happens but are we going to see any of the negotiations/arguments/outrage or will we just be tuning in a few weeks later? If part of the argument for GM choosing a larger agency was an instant Detroit branch will C5SDH be establishing a presence there? Peggy is typing the memo on (or for?) May 17th. Robert F. Kennedy has less than three weeks to live. So possibly they will cram this next episode in before June 6th if they accelerate the merger process, or we'll pick up shortly afterwards.
posted by mikepop at 7:25 AM on May 10, 2013


I'd be willing to bet we pick up after. We've already had two assassination episodes.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:29 AM on May 10, 2013


That was my initial theory before the merger - maybe picking up at 4th of July. Not sure if they want to somehow cram this episode in before June 6th then jump farther ahead, or settle for jumping not so far ahead. Or maybe they'll just jump ahead a couple of months now - I don't know what's realistic when going from "Announce sudden merger" to "change offices". It could be they work in existing offices for a while after the merger until they get all the logistics sorted out.
posted by mikepop at 7:42 AM on May 10, 2013


I think Ted & Peggy & al. are moving to SCDP's location, not that both firms are moving to a new location.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:47 AM on May 10, 2013


I think Ted & Peggy & al. are moving to SCDP's location, not that both firms are moving to a new location.
posted by shakespeherian


Yeah, that's what the previews looked like, plus it's established that SCDP now has a bunch of space.
posted by COBRA! at 7:49 AM on May 10, 2013


Sorry, that's what I meant by change offices. Just Ted's firm probably taking over another floor in the current building. So it could be a quick process, even if they all have temp offices while they build out some new area.
posted by mikepop at 7:50 AM on May 10, 2013


There's a lot I don't understand about the whole merger business. Would all the other partners really just take the whole thing as such a fait accompli?

No. Also there really isn't that much of a reason they couldn't pitch in the work together without having to actually merge the two companies. They could have found a way to split the work and revenue, although those things get awkward. Still, it's done a fair amount.

I think it's a bit silly to be going in that direction. Also Don & Ted are lower on the letterhead in their respective agencies so it's still a bit strange they would think they could just make a decision like that, even if it played out well. I thought it was a bit rushed.

Just for pure story sake, I think Don and Ted going off on their own would be pretty neat, but then there would be the issue of what to do with everyone else at SCDP. I wouldn't like them off the show, but I don't think Don would gleefully bring Pete on board.
posted by sweetkid at 7:52 AM on May 10, 2013


Just Ted's firm probably taking over another floor in the current building.

Maybe this ends the speculation about why they were making such a big deal about their being another floor in the office earlier in the season?
posted by sweetkid at 7:53 AM on May 10, 2013


Wait...what is the name of the woman who appears to have taken Peggy's place in the SCDP copy room? I can't keep referring to her as Peggy's Mum.
posted by mippy at 7:57 AM on May 10, 2013


I don;t think she's ever given a name so I'm calling her Gloria. She looks like a Gloria.
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 AM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


She does look like a Gloria but she surely has a name. Possibly Shirley.
posted by sweetkid at 8:16 AM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Don & Ted are lower on the letterhead in their respective agencies so it's still a bit strange they would think they could just make a decision like that

Well, we already know Ted needs money to buy Gleason out, and that Cutler is in charge of managing CDC's capital. So Ted can count on Cutler's support and doesn't need to take Gleason into consideration.

Don traveled to Detroit with Roger, who effectively control's Bert's vote and who is probably the senior capital partner in SCDP. Lane is dead and thus can't vote. So as long as Don and Roger agree, it's unlikely Bert will kick, and Joan's legitimate frustration with the speed of the decision won't change the outcome.

Which reminds me, is Pete a legit SCDP partner yet? I think he must be since he participates in the partners' meetings.
posted by mwhybark at 8:53 AM on May 10, 2013


They made Pete a partner in order to bring him to SCDP with his client book.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:55 AM on May 10, 2013


Don traveled to Detroit with Roger, who effectively control's Bert's vote and who is probably the senior capital partner in SCDP. Lane is dead and thus can't vote. So as long as Don and Roger agree, it's unlikely Bert will kick, and Joan's legitimate frustration with the speed of the decision won't change the outcome.

Yeah but again, there was no need to do this just to win the Chevy pitch and it was all a bit rushed, even if there's some backend justification to it. It just seemed like a very creaky mechanism to get Don and Peggy back together.

And yeah Pete's been a partner, he just didn't have as much money in as the others so didn't get Campbell added into the name salad.
posted by sweetkid at 8:56 AM on May 10, 2013


Yeah but again, there was no need to do this just to win the Chevy pitch and it was all a bit rushed, even if there's some backend justification to it. It just seemed like a very creaky mechanism to get Don and Peggy back together.


I'm holding out a little bit of hope that the next episode will address some of the partnery mechanics, but I'll probably be disappointed on that.
posted by COBRA! at 9:03 AM on May 10, 2013


Pete's a junior partner. He put in less money initially. (That's what confused me about Harry's temper tantrum a couple weeks ago. Partnerships aren't gold stars awarded to good boys and girls; typically you put in cash to become a partner. Is he waving around $100,000 or whatever and still can't get their attention? I don't think so.)
posted by purpleclover at 9:06 AM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Partnerships aren't gold stars awarded to good boys and girls; typically you put in cash to become a partner.

Wasn't Don made a junior partner of the original Sterling Cooper as a gold star? Not saying you're wrong in the real world, but I think I remember gold starism in the Mad Menverse.
posted by COBRA! at 9:08 AM on May 10, 2013


I think Harry understood he would need to put in money - it just wasn't discussed. Also, typically partners bring in business, which is why it makes more sense for Harry to be a partner than Joan. You don't need a finance person to be a partner, so the fact that she's doing Lane's job doesn't matter.
posted by sweetkid at 9:09 AM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don't forget that Don and Ted decided to merge not just for the sake of Chevy (although they decided to use that to sell it to their partners), but because they both wanted to get out of the minor leagues for all of their business.

At the time of Lane's death, Roger, Bert, and Don are equal partners, while Lane and Pete are junior partners and Joan has her 5%. Does anyone know what would happen to Lane's share in SCDP? I assume the others would've had to buy him out (as Cutler and Chaough have to buy out Gleason), but would his shares be equally distributed across the other partners?

When they showed that Bert, Pete, and Joan were working on the IPO without getting buy-in from Roger and Don first, I figured that the three of them together must've owned enough of the company to move forward with the IPO without Don's consent. I wish that all of this would be clarified too, but I'm not holding out hope.
posted by donajo at 9:10 AM on May 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Do we know (or have good guesses) as to what Cooper's original role in Sterling Cooper was? We know that Sterling Sr. was the account guy--was Bert a creative? Seems unlikely. And in Harry's temper tantrum, he says that Bert used to be him. Was Bert in media (radio?) sales?
posted by donajo at 9:13 AM on May 10, 2013


And in Harry's temper tantrum, he says that Bert used to be him. Was Bert in media (radio?) sales?

Good catch. This might have been explained in previous seasons where there was more focus on Cooper (like when his sister would come have lunch with him) but I can't remember.
posted by sweetkid at 9:16 AM on May 10, 2013


There's a part of me that can't imagine advertising existing in Bert's day. Of course I know it did, but all I can think of is stuff like this and wonder that it took an entire company of people to make that happen.

With all the talk about 80's Don Draper, I kind of wonder what 20's Don Draper would be like.
posted by Sara C. at 9:49 AM on May 10, 2013


Hmm I might have to lose an afternoon looking that up.
posted by sweetkid at 9:50 AM on May 10, 2013


He invents "Halitosis" for Listerine.
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 AM on May 10, 2013


It would be so great if Bert Cooper had invented halitosis.
posted by Sara C. at 9:55 AM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


"How'd you get your name on the side of a building, Mr. Cooper?"

"I invented bad breath."
posted by Sara C. at 9:55 AM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Here are some car ads from the 20s that I can fully believe took a full team to produce and sell in.
posted by sweetkid at 9:55 AM on May 10, 2013


Only four oil changes a year, you say? COUNT ME IN
posted by Sara C. at 10:01 AM on May 10, 2013


Betty Draper modeling, 1953.

I think I could bill looking at this site as 'research.' Sure I can.
posted by sweetkid at 10:07 AM on May 10, 2013


VINTAGE HIPSTERS
posted by The Whelk at 10:12 AM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Speaking of advertising, did we ever find out why Megan was wearing those ballerina laceups in the last episode of last season when she was shooting a SHOE commercial? I wonder if T&Lo pointed it out.
posted by sweetkid at 10:15 AM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


No they didn't which is why they have become completely worthless these days.

I'm also frustrated that they didn't notice the resemblance between Megan's bathrobe in the last episode and Betty's Sad Marriage Coat from back in the day.

Stop obsessing about blue and green and let's talk about interesting stuff. Also that scene between Abe and Peggy where they're talking about the junkie neighbor doesn't even have that much blue and green in it. Abe is wearing denim and Peggy's jacket has a green stripe.

(My frustration also has a lot to do with the fact that whatever ad script they're running on their site does not like Chrome at all and it takes forever for me to scroll through and realize they didn't talk about any of the things I wanted to know.)
posted by Sara C. at 10:19 AM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


yea I just looked and all they were talking about was how Megan looked like a little girl.
posted by sweetkid at 10:20 AM on May 10, 2013


Regarding Lane, wasn't there some cleanup business involving Don doing something to cover the guy's embezzlement and still provide some sort of payday for Lane's family? I would assume that would have ended any actual Prycean stake in SCDP.

Surely somewhere there is a nerdly site with carefully retconned estimated ownership stakes for SCDP.

Let's see...

Sterling / Cooper, fifty fifty (or whatever) then bought out by the Brits, all interest out of original partner's hands

SCDP, presumably weighted to Roger and Bert by dint of available capital, let's estimate 30-30-20-20

SCD presume Lane's family is bought out and his share redistributed to SCD initially, 20/3= ~6.66, so 36-36-26

SCD (CH) presume Pete matches Joan in the current pre-CDC merger state, so 10/3= ~3.33, 33-33-23-5-5

Bert tells Joan her share is ~$1m at IPO open, so that pegs the total value at ~$20m

Figuring out CDC is gonna be total guesswork since we don't have script info on their books. My vague impression is that they are a bit smaller than SCDP and we should assume it's a three way split, altered to a two-way split before the merger. For the sake of easy math let's peg them at $10m, with C&C at $5m each.

so in the end we might have a $30m (presumably inflated) valuation, split up as follows:
Roger and Bert: 6.67m each, 22%
Don: 4.67m, 16%
Ted: 5m, 17%(!)
Cutler (do we have a first name?): 5m, 17%
Pete: 1m, 3%
Joan: 1m, 3%

Well well well! So of course this is obviously fanfic, but there are some dramatic possibilities here, especially if my guess about CDC bears out. There's a possibility that Ted would outweigh him in ownership stake, something I can't imagine Don permitting.

The other thing I'm curious about is if we know what the minimum voting partner stake is. I'm guessing 5%, so Joan and Pete's votes may be in jeopardy, although presumably that stake can be redifined in the merger paperwork.
posted by mwhybark at 10:28 AM on May 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


(bizarre, my iPad sees 33-33-23-5-5 as a phone number and styles it as a regular yellow MetaFilter link)
posted by mwhybark at 10:33 AM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Thats right, we have MadMen spreadsheet fanfic. Feel proud everyone
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on May 10, 2013 [16 favorites]


mwhybark, I applaud your efforts, but your initial figures are off. Don was a partner before the sellout to PPL. Lane and Pete are brought in as (equal) junior partners at the creation of SCDP. In "The Other Woman", after Don leaves the discussion of Joan's prostitution, Pete comments that the remaining partners comprise 75% of the business. So the split is presumably 25-25-25-12.5-12.5 .

If Joan's 5% came equally from all of the partners, then it goes to 24-24-24-11.5.-11.5-5.

After Lane's death, if his shares are equally distributed again, then at the beginning of season six, we're at Sterling (26.875) Cooper (26.875) Draper (26.875) Campbell (14.375) Harris (7.875).

... and then my math skills peter out.

(And I want to say that it's Jim Cutler, but I'm not sure why).
posted by donajo at 11:16 AM on May 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Aha, yes, Jim Cutler.
posted by donajo at 11:18 AM on May 10, 2013


donajo, well done!
posted by mwhybark at 11:23 AM on May 10, 2013


UPDATES based on pure-handwavy 10m for CDC and donajo's sterling due dilly work:

Roger, Bert, Don: 5.38m each, 18%
Ted and Jim: 5m each, 17%
Pete: 2.88m, 10%
Joan: 1m, 3%

Which is awfully neat, I would say. Stand down the drama engines, Ted's in Don's preferred pecking order.
posted by mwhybark at 11:32 AM on May 10, 2013


What drama engines?
posted by sweetkid at 11:36 AM on May 10, 2013


Cutler's glasses and Roger's glasses are my OTP. They need to get married and have a bunch of little monocles.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:40 AM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Joan's glasses remain scandalized, on the sidelines.
posted by The Whelk at 11:42 AM on May 10, 2013


Gloria/Shirley-the-copywriter's name is Margie Koch (played by Tracy Silver).
posted by gubo at 11:44 AM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


What drama engines?

My first guesstimate showed that Ted might have more shares than Don, which seemed like something that could en-engine drama. But the update says no.
posted by mwhybark at 11:46 AM on May 10, 2013


oh gotcha. Now I want to use en-engine more in conversation.
posted by sweetkid at 11:49 AM on May 10, 2013


Yeah but again, there was no need to do this just to win the Chevy pitch and it was all a bit rushed

Remember SCDP was on the verge of an IPO and then they lost Jaguar and Vicks in the same week. Not only was the IPO off the table, they just lost two major revenue streams. SCDP was in a really bad spot; I don't know if it threatened their survival, but the company was going to be far less valuable and in a very public way, given that there was probably some pre-offering hype going on. Every partner at SCDP had a huge financial incentive to complete the merger quickly.

At the same time, CGC was losing a partner who had to be bought out. Ted and Cutler didn't have the cash on hand to buy a third of the company; Gleason was clearly worried his death would cause CGC to collapse.

By merging, however, they not only get Chevy, the restore client and market confidence. They should be able to go forward with the IPO, and have enough cash on hand to buy out Gleason, and while cost savings, Chevy and new anticpaited business makes up for the lost of Jaguar and Vicks.

Without the merger, both companies were going to bleed to death in the medium term, if not outright collapse in the short term. The merge needed to happen before they were buried in debt and before they sustained severe brand damage.
posted by spaltavian at 12:29 PM on May 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think the "going forward with IPO" makes sense but the "they were going to collapse without the merger" part doesn't make as much sense. I mean, these are imaginary agency finances and losing two accounts in one week under those conditions hardly plays out that way in the real world, but still SCDP might have had layoffs but wouldn't have bled to death or ruined things with existing clients.

I assumed they learned their lesson with Lucky Strike, that you can't have one account keeping your lights on.
posted by sweetkid at 1:07 PM on May 10, 2013


Margie? So she and Peggy are different nicknames for the same first name, like Betty and Beth?
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:53 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


BTW how odd is it that Peggy is a form of Margaret? Where is that through-line?
posted by The Whelk at 1:55 PM on May 10, 2013


Still don't understand where 'Bill' stole its B from in the race from 'William.'
posted by shakespeherian at 1:56 PM on May 10, 2013


Megan is also a form of Margaret
posted by sweetkid at 1:56 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


See also "Chip," from "Richard."
posted by invitapriore at 2:18 PM on May 10, 2013


Why is Peggy the nickname for Margaret?

English language diminutive types in general
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:29 PM on May 10, 2013


I've known two Chips and they were both Charleses. Then again, people are weird.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:15 PM on May 10, 2013


Oh shit, you're right, I just misremembered. That's a little less inscrutable of a derivation.
posted by invitapriore at 3:17 PM on May 10, 2013


I think the "going forward with IPO" makes sense but the "they were going to collapse without the merger" part doesn't make as much sense.

They need the capital from the IPO. CGC is done without that cash. As for SCDP:

I assumed they learned their lesson with Lucky Strike, that you can't have one account keeping your lights on.

Except this was two accounts, right on the heels of losing Heinz. Probably their biggest three accounts in the span of a couple of weeks. But then you have to think of the aftershocks, as "failed IPO" would probably make other clients nervous.

Yes, they could have had layoffs, but remember they were running lean already (there was a round of layoffs before). Losing staff right when they needed to grow quickly means they can't replace their losses. They could have survived, but this sounds exactly like bleeding to death to me.
posted by spaltavian at 3:27 PM on May 10, 2013


I think you have some good points, but I'd have to see if they explain this next week.
posted by sweetkid at 3:31 PM on May 10, 2013


Dick from Richard is in the same boat, though.

My god nicknames are stupid when you start thinking about them.
posted by Sara C. at 3:41 PM on May 10, 2013


yea "sweetkid" doesn't describe me at all.
posted by sweetkid at 6:13 PM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]




I think the last round of layoffs was behind them. They expanded to a second floor after all.

So does the merger happen on paper by having the SCDP partners buy Gleason's stake of CGC?

I miss having Lane around as the walking talking SCDP financial statement. He had a knack for explaining things clearly.

It's interesting to me that Draper and Sterling were the ones who pulled the merger together after being the two who were excluded from the IPO strategizing. Or do we think that Cooper had Roger's understood consent?
posted by dry white toast at 10:47 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


GUYS. The banker from last week was the Brain from Herman's Head.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:02 PM on May 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


I also saw someone say it was Clarissa's dad, but I thought Trudy's dad was Clarissa's dad so I'm confused.

All I know is that Trudy's dad was a dad in an 80's or early 90's kid/family sitcom.
posted by Sara C. at 3:06 PM on May 11, 2013


Yeah I just checked and Tom "Trudy's Dad" Vogel is played by Joe O'Connor, who also played Clarissa's dad on Clarissa Explains It All. No idea what those other people were smoking.
posted by Sara C. at 3:10 PM on May 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


GUYS. The banker from last week was the Brain from Herman's Head.

I think that's Weiner's trick for TV dorks like me who don't care much about the plot or characters but keep coming back to see if Don will fuck the twins from Double Trouble.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:54 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Just FyI, this is traditionally the point in a Mad Men season where they have a werid/format breaking episode. So...let's see!
posted by The Whelk at 6:56 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Awesome. So it's the musical episode then?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:01 PM on May 12, 2013


Close door. CLOSE DOOR!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:02 PM on May 12, 2013


this rearranging office power play thing is too realistic I may have to turn this off.
posted by sweetkid at 7:04 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


aww Bert giving the mawwage speech
posted by sweetkid at 7:05 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


What is going on with Bert's pocket square? Has it always been that colorfully awesome?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:06 PM on May 12, 2013


Peggy Olson, Copy Chief and Landlady.
posted by donajo at 7:06 PM on May 12, 2013


Or Coffee Chief. Did Stan make that sign?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:07 PM on May 12, 2013


Fleischmann's, groovy.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:07 PM on May 12, 2013


I know people make fun of the Meredith character, but the actress is outstanding.
posted by sweetkid at 7:07 PM on May 12, 2013


haha, come in have a seat
posted by sweetkid at 7:11 PM on May 12, 2013


Is Burt Mel Cooley?
posted by Chrysostom at 7:12 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Berts are like Highlander. There can be only one.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:12 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Oh, I see why Don likes her. She makes booty calls in ad copy form.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:14 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


No don't make me imagine Bob Benson having human emotions!
posted by The Whelk at 7:14 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


I wanna have a little rap session about margarine in general.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:14 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


"because I've read a book, Stan."
posted by The Whelk at 7:15 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]



Oh, I see why Don likes her. She makes booty calls in ad copy form.


haha, excellent.
posted by sweetkid at 7:16 PM on May 12, 2013


Hi, I'm Don Draper, I get off on women slapping me AND leaving them naked and helpless! I contain multitudes!
posted by The Whelk at 7:17 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Okay, I want ten uses for Bob Benson on my desk, stat.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:18 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


A table?
posted by The Whelk at 7:18 PM on May 12, 2013


So, margarine, it's a poor subsitute for the real thing in a time of crisis, cue Sylvia's garbagemen strike of a marriage and adultery!
posted by The Whelk at 7:20 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Don, your 10am whore is still on hold.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:21 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


That's our Don!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:21 PM on May 12, 2013


"I have too much going on at the office" sounds so strange coming out of Don's mouth.
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 PM on May 12, 2013


Oh God, it's 50 Shades of Don.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:22 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Wow I think Sylvia is in the running for my least favorite character evar on this show.
posted by sweetkid at 7:23 PM on May 12, 2013


Yeah, I am not enamored of this Sylvia stuff.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:26 PM on May 12, 2013


Are Don and Ted going to make out?
posted by sweetkid at 7:27 PM on May 12, 2013


Sure, Ted, your Gilligan's Island theory is interesting, but have you tried booze?
posted by Chrysostom at 7:28 PM on May 12, 2013 [6 favorites]


Why does it feel all of the sudden like Don is Marien Ravenwood?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:31 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh Ted, you're going to have to up your tolerance if you're gonna work with Don.
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, this is the big leagues, son. We polish off a fifth before 10 am.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:32 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


As I said before, I want Don/Ted fics on my desk by 10.

Also, boo stop I don't want to admit Bob is a human being with thoughts and feelings.
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 PM on May 12, 2013


As I said before, I want Don/Ted fics on my desk by 10.

yeah, there was something...something about them there for a second. I mean. Wait what?
posted by sweetkid at 7:34 PM on May 12, 2013


Also Riger got to fire someone twice! And watching him and Hamlin get on like twins is amusing.
posted by The Whelk at 7:35 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


You like that story?
posted by box at 7:36 PM on May 12, 2013


If Joannie has cancer I'm going to cry and cry and never stop
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was wondering if she's pregnant and having a miscarriage.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:37 PM on May 12, 2013


seriously that would not be cool. cancer I mean. Miscarriage either. Worried about Joan.
posted by sweetkid at 7:37 PM on May 12, 2013


Whoa Don whoa...

Not following you to this place.
posted by The Whelk at 7:38 PM on May 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


I see Don is moving back down the unsympathetic slope again.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:39 PM on May 12, 2013


All this Sylvia makes me miss Megan.
posted by sweetkid at 7:39 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Aw, hungover Ted is cutest Ted.
posted by The Whelk at 7:39 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


For for god sakes Ted just kiss him.
posted by The Whelk at 7:40 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


More Gleason, less Sylvia.
posted by rewil at 7:40 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


St Patrick's Day scares the Dyckman clan, who knew.
posted by sweetkid at 7:42 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


So, we don't care about Pete's mom then?
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on May 12, 2013


It makes me feel bad for Pete, though I don't know why. Feel bad for both of them. I cringe at these elderly decline storylines.
posted by sweetkid at 7:43 PM on May 12, 2013


I don't even care about Pete.
posted by box at 7:43 PM on May 12, 2013


It brings out those filthy Irish.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:44 PM on May 12, 2013


It's a Very Special Mother's Day episode with the Dyckmans.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:44 PM on May 12, 2013


I also don't care about Oreos.
posted by box at 7:45 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm kind of in love with these new Oreo commercials.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:45 PM on May 12, 2013


The Don thing is pretty on the nose, he has no control over a chaotic business situation and is now maki a big fetish about control in his private life to gloriate in being needed and in charge.


Also this Oreo ad is surreal.
posted by The Whelk at 7:45 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Adorable vampires and squids eat Oreos, too.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on May 12, 2013


Whoa Peggy, bring the naval uniform realness. This is astounding good bit of fashion.
posted by The Whelk at 7:47 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Clara's neck is seven feet long.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:49 PM on May 12, 2013


Is Ted wearing a bomber jacket? That's fantastic!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:49 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


This is so weird.
posted by sweetkid at 7:50 PM on May 12, 2013


Ted is the MAN!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:50 PM on May 12, 2013


So Greg died in Nam? Did we know this?
posted by sweetkid at 7:51 PM on May 12, 2013


You say that now, but wait until Ted and Don are stranded on the island.
posted by box at 7:51 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]



Ted is the MAN!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 10:50 PM on May 12


eponysterical.
posted by sweetkid at 7:52 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Let's see, blonde all American optimistic fly boy and a heavy drinking dark haired rich genius.

Ted/Don is Steve/Tony.
posted by The Whelk at 7:53 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh, Pete. You and your unerring ability to find yourself in a sympathetic position and piss it right away.
posted by rewil at 7:53 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Hey, they found a critic that likes 'The Killing,' good for them.
posted by box at 7:53 PM on May 12, 2013


I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around Don reading Larry McMurtry.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:55 PM on May 12, 2013


50 Shades of Dumped.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:58 PM on May 12, 2013


Bob Benson eludes death!
posted by Chrysostom at 8:00 PM on May 12, 2013


BOB LIVES
posted by rewil at 8:00 PM on May 12, 2013


Sylvia out, Bob stays?? Love this episode.
posted by sweetkid at 8:01 PM on May 12, 2013


Wait, Bob's in? What'd I miss?
posted by box at 8:01 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Let that be a lesson, Don: don't take a woman's reading material when you've trapped her in a hotel room.
posted by gladly at 8:01 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Oh no, Don has gone deaf!
posted by Chrysostom at 8:01 PM on May 12, 2013


Wow, Don never even muted Betty. Poor Megan.
posted by sweetkid at 8:02 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Holy FUCK!
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:02 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well. One Bob does.
posted by rewil at 8:03 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


ANOTHER GREAT EPISODE I CAN'T BREATHE
posted by sweetkid at 8:03 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I wondered if they were going to fit Kennedy into this episode or the next. Damn. Great episode.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:04 PM on May 12, 2013


box: "Wait, Bob's in? What'd I miss?"
Joan saved him by telling them he was covering Ken's accounts.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:05 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Just perfect how they used Pete's mom to give us the news about Bobby Kennedy. Fabulous.
posted by sweetkid at 8:07 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


So in our gender flip theatre, Bob is the ambitious underling with sights on a higher up.
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on May 12, 2013


Alas, poor Margie. We only figured out your name just recently.

Where were Dawn and Phyllis?
posted by rewil at 8:08 PM on May 12, 2013


Dawn was offscreen, Peggy reported talking to her. Phyllis...probably gone.
posted by sweetkid at 8:09 PM on May 12, 2013


Peggy tells Joan she doesn't mind sharing an office as long as she doesn't have to share Phyllis. But not seeing her makes me think she's probably out. :/
posted by rewil at 8:12 PM on May 12, 2013


Bob's now busy regenerating into The Second Bob Benson (still not Ginger).
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:14 PM on May 12, 2013


He has Sonic Smug!
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Bert's second firing is even better the second time around.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:15 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


love the rewatch.
posted by sweetkid at 8:18 PM on May 12, 2013


also, for our own anal retentive bean counting, yes Peggy bought that brownstone.
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on May 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


Roger really enjoyed that Burt firing.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:21 PM on May 12, 2013


Asprinies
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I loved how this episode is basically about a Ted/Don wrestling match, and how that Ted/Don power shift happened. Ted goes from nursing a hangover and licking his wounds to holding Don's life in his hands.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:26 PM on May 12, 2013


COOOOOOONSTANT CRAAAAAAAVING
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 PM on May 12, 2013


can someone remind me the song that played over the end?
posted by sweetkid at 8:31 PM on May 12, 2013


Reach Out Of The Darkness by Friend & Lover.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:34 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Of The Darkness

PEGGY: This is like that nightmare where you're back in school but naked. I just bought a HOUSE I have GROWN UP PROBLEMS I don't need this first day callback to my first episode shit! No! fuck change! STASIS FOREVER. MY NAME IS PEGGY OLSON AND I WANT TO BE FROZEN IN CARBONITE.
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Can we sign some sort of petition to have Roger direct all remaining episodes? The blurry shot of Don's pants/belt/crotch in the forground (facing the camera) as Megan watched the Kennedy news in the background (back to the camera) was brilliant.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:34 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


*sits on desk in meeting room*
posted by The Whelk at 8:35 PM on May 12, 2013


If Don's been reading McMurtry, the Ted/Don fanfic is going to need 100% more Brokeback Mountain references.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:36 PM on May 12, 2013


David Algonquin publishes a landmark GBLT short fiction story about two pilots in the Korean war.
posted by The Whelk at 8:37 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Stupid sexy Mathis.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:37 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The blurry shot of Don's pants/belt/crotch in the forground (facing the camera)

Wha? Totally missed this! So glad for rewatch! This is why I never work out Monday mornings.
posted by sweetkid at 8:38 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ted: I have to try to understand him! He's so mysterious and complex! This merge can work if we work together! *flounces on bed, stares at phone* When will he call?!

Don: (while ordering Sylvia to choke herself with the phone cord) hey I wonder if I can make Ted do this? I figure it'll take two, three drinks tops.
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I covet the SCDP "plus sign" coffee mug on the table during the margarine creative meeting more than I've ever coveted any mundane item on any TV show.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:40 PM on May 12, 2013


Can we sign some sort of petition to have Roger direct all remaining episodes? The blurry shot of Don's pants/belt/crotch in the forground (facing the camera) as Megan watched the Kennedy news in the background (back to the camera) was brilliant.

Also gorgeous? The shot of Don and Ted talking past one another about margarine.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:41 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]



Ted: I have to try to understand him! He's so mysterious and complex! This merge can work if we work together! *flounces on bed, stares at phone* When will he call?!

Don: (while ordering Sylvia to choke herself with the phone cord) hey I wonder if I can make Ted do this? I figure it'll take two, three drinks tops.


I SO want to watch this
posted by sweetkid at 8:42 PM on May 12, 2013


Ha, i was literally thinking - are they going to do a mirror framing of Ted an-aaaaand there it is. how French of you Mr. Slatterly.
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on May 12, 2013


Welcome to Jean Genet dinner theatre starring Don Draper.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:43 PM on May 12, 2013


I wonder what will happen with Pete next week. He really seems to be getting dangerously unhinged.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:44 PM on May 12, 2013


This episode is on par with Lane's suicide as an episode that just knocked me out physically when I was done. Just...wow. Even with the crap Sylvia stuff, which does have a purpose I guess.
posted by sweetkid at 8:45 PM on May 12, 2013


Bob: Do you need a doctor? I always bring two so I can give one away.

JOAN: I was just thinking about how if I died Kevin would go to my Abominable Snowman of a mother or Greg's garbage fire parents so hey there young, strapping up and comer. I've never been on this side of this relationship.
posted by The Whelk at 8:46 PM on May 12, 2013 [9 favorites]


Am I the only one who can't wait for Joan and Bob Branson to start having little red-headed, blazer-wearing babies?
posted by donajo at 8:46 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Now that Pete's stuck with his mother, caring for her will remind Pete that he's a human.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:47 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Benson!
posted by sweetkid at 8:47 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


No! Pete isn't allowed to have human emotions! He is only allowed to suffer! No growing as a person!
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Gah! I am forever shamed.
posted by donajo at 8:47 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Bob Benson really is Kenneth Ellen Parcell. He's immortal and he'll end up running the whole agency.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:48 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


I like how it took Bob one episode to go from odd free-floating phantasm to MOST ELIGIBLE BACHELOR status.
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also, Harry was in this episode.

His sideburns make me sad on the inside.
posted by The Whelk at 8:50 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Admit it, you guys: Red-sneaker-wearing-oreo-eating vampires are adorable. Just like Bob Benson.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:50 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Have we ever seen Bob Benson in direct sunlight?

(still waiting on my True Blood/Mad Men fic you guys)
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


One of his coffees was always ready and waiting for the audience.
posted by rewil at 8:51 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The blues in Don's tie sort of match Peggy's naval blues.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:51 PM on May 12, 2013


He got Joanie out of the office by offering to annoy her to the door! And then he talked her way into the ER! What's not to love? (Stopping by her house to bring her two-year-old a football, that was a bit much).
posted by donajo at 8:51 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]



Bob: Do you need a doctor? I always bring two so I can give one away.



Whelk I am telling you you can keep being hilarious but I am going to run out of favorites.
posted by sweetkid at 8:52 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Joan's Mother: Not everything is part of a plan!

Bob: Every single time I've been onscreen I've been doing lots of pre-mediated planning!
posted by The Whelk at 8:52 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


He got Joanie out of the office by offering to annoy her to the door!

annoy! I could not figure out what that word was!
posted by sweetkid at 8:53 PM on May 12, 2013


Watch your "instruments", Don, HEY-O.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:54 PM on May 12, 2013


Also, Harry was in this episode.

And he and Pete are friends again. I'm guessing the whole original-SC crew is watching each other's backs during the merger.
posted by donajo at 8:55 PM on May 12, 2013


Dammit, Chrysostom, I can't unsee Clara's neck now. It's like watching a giraffe.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:57 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Pete's Mom: Well here I am to remind you of the past and your burdens during this, a stressful time in your life, turns out you can't escape the past cause I can't remember the present! Funny that. Anyway, stand up straight, shoulders back, is that gum? What ever happened to that nice Gatsby boy? I'm going to say "prostitute" with 8 thousand syllables.

Pete: Oh god, it's like she's regressing and I'm regressing right back to childhood

Peggy: I KNOW. Why are our plots always in sync?

Stan: Bread is like .....the most important thing, the most...most important thing so what you put on it is also equally...important.
posted by The Whelk at 8:57 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


As usual, Pete is right and being ridiculous at the same time - you don't send two creatives in a single engine plane to save an account. You need an Account person.
posted by sweetkid at 8:57 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


You know who else should never fly in planes? Kennedys. Which is why this episode is extra freaky.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:59 PM on May 12, 2013


Don Draper is rich enough to spend oh, a couple thousand dollars on a dress from Saks just for his own person The Night Porter LARP.
posted by The Whelk at 8:59 PM on May 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


As usual, Pete is right and being ridiculous at the same time - you don't send two creatives in a single engine plane to save an account. You need an Account person.

Where was Pete going to sit, anyway?
posted by donajo at 9:00 PM on May 12, 2013


Good point, no seat again for Pete.
posted by sweetkid at 9:01 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


On Don's instruments HEY-O.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:01 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


It's enough to make you give Clara a strange, self-important speech so you can watch the waves of "I am so freaking DONE with you" wash over her face!
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 PM on May 12, 2013


I had a dream that five Christina Hendricks tried to get me to drink Johnnie Walkers....
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:02 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Don Dumpin is whole new territory here: He has never been rejected by a woman for trying to turn her into a whore.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:04 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


She's not really a whore though in this game right?
posted by sweetkid at 9:05 PM on May 12, 2013


"They write people off all the time," says Megan. And then she's on mute. Interesting.
posted by sweetkid at 9:06 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Sylvia: Well this was a fun break but you're creeping me out what with your bottomless well of despair thing and I get the idea you're kinda beyond saving and any fantasy I had of living with you and changing you has been dashed on the rocks of your pryschosexual fantasia and me leaving means I'm still better than you, cause I'm super Catholic and that's how we roll. Goodbye, enjoy your whirlwind of existential emptiness, and...keep the book.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on May 12, 2013 [10 favorites]


"Well, hope your kid survives the riots and total anarchy in Paris!"
posted by Chrysostom at 9:08 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


This could be nothing but Don's posture at the end of the episode was the same as when he went and sat on the bed in California when he went with Megan and the kids, and then clearly thought "screw it, I'm gonna be this other guy" and cannonballed into the pool and married Megan.
posted by sweetkid at 9:09 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also Greg isn't dead. He just would never raise his kid because he's too busy having his butt kissed in the army as an important doctor.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:12 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The dress, of course, was red.
posted by rewil at 9:13 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I actually think, what with the muting and all, this is the darkest we've ever seen Don. Seriously, he'd do awful things and then feel awful and suffer and we forgive (or at least, understand) him and his deep well of self-destructive loathing, there was always a feeling that Don wanted to change or at least knew, on some level, he was a shitbird. And in those moments he seemed to turn around, we cheered! Yes, get your life back together! You Can be better!

Don now seems uh ....I don't think he cares anymore. In the sense that he would always hate himself after or realize what he was doing was wrong - that internal critic is gone, the floodgates are open, do what don wills shall be the whole of the law, and the unchecked anarchy outside (they're just shooting everyone) is mirrored in Don's new lack of conceincse or regret or internal checks. Don the real nihilist, not the one he pretended to be.

CUE: A sunny optimistic reasonable moral and ethical man whom he now has to work with everyday.
posted by The Whelk at 9:14 PM on May 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


More selling points of Bob Benson:
1. Coffee. So much Coffee
2. Nimble on office stairs
3. He's the perfect companion for Brothels, Emergency Room Visits, and any time when discretion is the operative word.
4. Can deliver Ted/Don's Fleischmann's margarine love child, but needs lots of toast.
5. Mom bait.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:17 PM on May 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yeah, he didn't even seem like he was feeling badly when he got in bed with Megan after all that with Sylvia.
posted by sweetkid at 9:18 PM on May 12, 2013


Nimble on office stairs

He needs a musical number stat.
posted by sweetkid at 9:18 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I would be tickled pink if both Joan and Peggy ended up with stay-at-home husbands (Bob is a "consultant".)
posted by The Whelk at 9:20 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also yes, the Ted/Don wrestling match, Ted being beaten on Don's turf (Boozy afternoon creative meetings) and Don being humbled on Ted's (Flying ABOVE THE CLOUDS where it's ALWAYS SUNNY).
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


and not to put to fine a point on it but the show brought this up so it has always itself to blame, Everyone stuck in limbo and liminal and in-between states (Purgatory!), Don down in his own Inferno, and Ted flying above them, into the CLOUDS.
posted by The Whelk at 9:31 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Don and Ted were in Purgatory in that bar in Detroit last week I am telling you.
posted by sweetkid at 9:33 PM on May 12, 2013


Hmmm, I look forward to Ted and Don climbing out of Hell on Satan's fur.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:47 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Where the fuck is Dawn?
posted by mynameisluka at 9:48 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The more I think about this episode (instead of, you know, sleeping), the more I think that the whole margarine thing is really really important. It's such a symbol of artificiality and blandness and regressive 1950s suburbia and plastickyness... not to mention its origins as a non-spoiling staple for French soldiers! (Hellooo, Megan!) (BTW I loved the non-sequitur of Peggy knowing that historical tidbit for no reason.) Anyway, maybe I'm overthinking things, but really, I can't believe it's not butter.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 9:49 PM on May 12, 2013 [2 favorites]




The product's they're working on usually have thematic relevance so being told to work on a substitute for the real thing that no one really likes to begin with is pretty important, IMHO.

Also, Ted was right, the medical/Professor angle is how Margarine was marketed at the time.

Also in dairy-industry-heavy states and areas, sometimes margarine had to be dyed garish colors so people wouldn't confuse it with butter.
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Quebec among them, as it happens.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:58 PM on May 12, 2013


I Can't Believe It's Not Megan!
posted by The Whelk at 10:00 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is Ted wearing a bomber jacket? That's fantastic!

Haven't seen the episode yet, but in either the first merger episode or the Ted kisses Peggy episode there is a shot in Ted's office which includes among the wall bricabrac a fullscale wooden propeller. That + Don's "Lieutenant" said military aviator to me, which I gather is borne out this evening.
posted by mwhybark at 10:12 PM on May 12, 2013


Thus cementing the Don as Iron Man and Ted as Captain America bond in my head

plus when I went to see the Avengers I was wearing my bomber jacket and in the last scene Steve was wearing an exact replica and I got seriously confused
posted by The Whelk at 10:22 PM on May 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


maybe it's actually the same jacket because time travel and stark's tachyon generators instantiated a persistent handwave also known as an RDF or jobsian reality distortion field
posted by mwhybark at 10:31 PM on May 12, 2013


this may also explain why I have an authentic 1943 Army Officer Uniform in my closet, turns out it's cheaper to buy vintage than get recreations but not a lot of 46 Longs on the market
posted by The Whelk at 10:34 PM on May 12, 2013


SYLVIA: It's easy to give something up when you're ashamed.

This is actually the same speech she could have given when dumping Nick Andopolis.
posted by The Gooch at 10:44 PM on May 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


...and another obvious point to make with reference to prior threads: remember the Roger doppelganger in Hawaii? Now Ted's exhibiting Roger character backstory elements. Did that kid's wedding prefigure the merger in some weird way?
posted by mwhybark at 12:19 AM on May 13, 2013


I feel like the backstage plan for this whole season is about getting increasingly strange pairs of characters into increasingly strange situations, like Mad Men Mad Libs: ___ and ____ in a ____. I don't know how they're going to top Ted and Don in a small plane, but I felt that way about Pete and Bob in a brothel, and Ted and Don beat that even before Ted's sunglasses came out.

It takes some kind of incredible skill to play out an apparent joke character like Bob for that long, and then suddenly bring him into this story with Joan and have it feel like a natural development, particularly since the scenes called for Joan to laugh off her own vulnerability and Bob to act with some subtlety and social grace -- but it worked. They brought these things out in each other. And they made visual sense standing in the same room, which I've honestly never thought of any of Joan's partners or pickups, even Roger. This relationship is going to be cynical and complicated, no doubt -- hell, it already is, and it's still at the gifted-football/I-saved-your-job point -- but I find the prospect bizarrely wonderful.

That scene reminded me of Don and Joan at the hospital the night of her going-away party, after the foot decapitation: a waiting room, a soda, an uncharacteristically casual moment. She was at the end of something then. I hope she's at the beginning of something now.
posted by thesmallmachine at 12:24 AM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


Cutler had the right of it, Don the grifter can only go a few rounds before tiring himself out. Putting on a face is hard work, and charming people with that false face is even harder.

So he's stuck in a plane where he can't actually run away* (whether physically or even into a book), and he actually crumples - losing hand to Ted, and it cascades with Silvia (who probably already made up her mind to cut her losses, but his apparent neediness really showed in that moment).

So yeah, same themes as always, but they are failing him in faster cycles.

* After placing silvia in a hotel room, and dressing her in brothel red, where she is not allowed to run away.
posted by stratastar at 12:59 AM on May 13, 2013


four things i noticed, that i thot were interesting:

a) the saks box (vs bonwit tailor), the slightly out of fashion underwear, (garters vs no garters), and yet, Slyvia dumps Don, and Meagan picks up the peices. That scene with her in the slip, watching RFK get shot, while Don gets dressed...
b) the plane scene look like rock hudson/doris day rear projection
c) Pete exploiting the WASP fear of the Irish
d) Don and Slyvia trading back and forth a copy of McMurtry's Last Picture Show, which I found terribly poignant.
posted by PinkMoose at 1:21 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


The product's they're working on usually have thematic relevance so being told to work on a substitute for the real thing that no one really likes to begin with is pretty important, IMHO.

I feel like Don is butter and Ted is margarine. And margarine was invented for the long-haul.
posted by crossoverman at 4:07 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


While Peggy's offhand knowledge of margarine history makes her seem widely-read in her era, if that happened in a meeting today it would look like she forgot about the meeting and only had time to read the first sentence of the "Margarine" entry on Wikipedia on her phone as she ran down the hall.
posted by mikepop at 5:04 AM on May 13, 2013 [9 favorites]


"I want to work for a really big, huge honkin' agency! Let's merge and then lay everybody off! Hey, wait a minute..."

How did Bert Cooper age 100 years overnight?

During Megan's mute scene, I was wondering if her middle name was Berenice.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:38 AM on May 13, 2013


I feel like Don is butter and Ted is margarine. And margarine was invented for the long-haul.

Or the opposite -- Ted is the real thing, whereas Don is an oily artificial fake. (Speaking of which, I miss Dick Whitman.)
posted by flyingsquirrel at 6:10 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I can't believe how much I like Ted Chaough. He always looked like such a dick when he was trying to compete with Don. But now that we see what he's actually like on his own turf and at work, it turns out that he's a pretty decent, genuine person who really cares about the people he works with and has a really effective modus operandi as a copywriter and as a boss. The aviator glasses and bomber jacket in the plane scene were hysterical (though it would have been even funnier to put them over a turtleneck), as was the terrified look on Don's face. But despite the apparent silliness of Ted's fly boy costuming, he actually did have matters under control; he can fly the damn plane, he has integrity, and you can safely trust him. The contrast between Ted and Don really points up who Don is. Don looks like The Man, but Ted, who isn't suave and doesn't look like a man in an ad for ad men, is the real deal, the one you can count on to show up for the 1 p.m. meeting and listen to your ideas and help you develop them. He shows Don up as the egocentric, selfish, irresponsible bully he really is.

The idea of being kept in a hotel room à la Sylvia was, well, hot. Seriously, as a game with someone I trusted I could... go for that. But with Don you know it's not just a game and he can't handle the stresses and hard work entailed in a relationship with a woman who expects her independence and equality to be respected, so... yikes.

Oh, Burt Peterson. You're the Charlie Brown of Mad Men. Don't even go near any version of a Sterling Cooper Draper agency again, because they're totally going to keep pulling the football manuevre on you.

I hope the Joan Harris/Bob Benson storyline goes somewhere good. It's time Joan got treated right. And I can't tell you how relieved I am that she didn't have cancer — I was waiting for that diagnosis with a sick dread.
posted by orange swan at 6:21 AM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


I agree with most of what you're saying, orange swan, but I'm not quite so sure about "listen to your ideas and help you develop them." Ted DID listen, but the freeform rap session about margarine seemed to be a failure, really. At the end, Ted concedes, "we'll do it the standard way, do some research."

Ted is a much better person than Don, but I think Don has a spark of genius in him that Ted doesn't. It can be overwhelmed by his manifold demons, but when he's on, he makes stuff happen.

You probably need both of them to be a really successful agency.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:30 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I feel like Ted's personality has been ret-conned a bit. In season 4, he was a bit of an ass, not this earnest, just-wants-to-work-hard straight-shooter that he is now. I mean, this is the guy that prank-called Don pretending to be Bobby Kennedy after the cigarettes letter. I like this Ted and think he makes a great foil for Don, but I'm not sure that it's the same Ted we've seen before.
posted by donajo at 6:36 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Don may very well be the better copywriter, Chrysostom, while Ted is better at leading a team.

I think the pranking fits in with what we're seeing. Ted has a playful, goofy side. Remember him sitting on the floor of his office trying to get a TV program to come in when Peggy enters his office? Can you see Don doing that? He likes to joke, and he can take a joke. His dying friend and partner told him, "You're not interesting," and Ted doesn't bristle at that but says something like, "Don doesn't know that yet."
posted by orange swan at 6:50 AM on May 13, 2013


It's interesting, after watching the brainstorming session for Fleischmann's margarine, that the 1968 ads I could find on line were marketing the margarine with a diet angle - and sponsoring an aerobics book.

In 1969 Fleishmann's asked "Is swimming as good for you as Fleischmann's margarine?" and went on to proclaim Fleischmann's as "The premium margarine doctors name most" and "made from 100% corn oil." Ted Bates & Co., New York handled the ad. (and other books were sponsored/produced over the years, but 1969's was about cholesterol...) So, is this the product of the research?

So - look at the storylines that could inspire this, if the show stays true to life: It could have been about Fat Betty - but now it could be about Cholesterol control with advice from a heart doctor! Who's going to have a heart attack?

And the idea of heart health? Look at the lyrics to Friend and Lover, the song over the closing credits, as donajo led me to learn that Matthew Wiener would like us to:
I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's so wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
And you may find a friend

I knew a man that I did not care for
And then one day this man gave me a call
We sat and talked about things on our mind
And now this man he is a friend of mine
Don't be afraid of love
Don't be afraid, don't be afraid to love
Everybody needs a little love
Everybody needs somebody
That they can be thinking of
Don't be afraid of love
Don't be afraid, don't be afraid to love
Everybody needs a little love
Everybody needs somebody
That they can be thinking of
It's tantalizing! All of these people finally getting together! Teams being formed with the merger! Don finally has a male friend, as we'd noticed with Dr. Rosen! But Don and Sylvia can't fall in love (then it wouldn't be so French!) and so, Don reach out of the darkness! Fly above the clouds and don't be afraid to love Ted. Even just as a friend. That would be so groovy.
posted by peagood at 6:55 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


They should continue Mad Men into the 70s except as a police series. *cue wah guitar* He's a hard-drinking, woman loving tough from the mean farms of Pennsylvania, he's a straight shooting by the book detective... Together they fight crime as "Draper and Chaough" Thursday nights on NBC.
posted by drezdn at 7:02 AM on May 13, 2013


I feel like Ted's personality has been ret-conned a bit. In season 4, he was a bit of an ass, not this earnest, just-wants-to-work-hard straight-shooter that he is now. I mean, this is the guy that prank-called Don pretending to be Bobby Kennedy after the cigarettes letter. I like this Ted and think he makes a great foil for Don, but I'm not sure that it's the same Ted we've seen before.

I totally agree with this. I don't think it's a case of us knowing him better, I think they made a significant change to the character. I like him, too, but it took me a while to get my head around the change.
posted by sweetkid at 7:08 AM on May 13, 2013


And my prediction for Don's fate: he'll wind up in jail or dead. My guess is that cigarette lighter of his wound up in the hands of that marine he met in Hawaii, and the guy's going to try to find a way to get it back to him via military connections, which means Don's desertion and identity switcheroo will be exposed. This isn't going to be pretty.
posted by orange swan at 7:28 AM on May 13, 2013


the guy's going to try to find a way to get it back to him via military connections, which means Don's desertion and identity switcheroo will be exposed. This isn't going to be pretty.

No, I think this storyline is pretty much dead at this point.
posted by sweetkid at 7:29 AM on May 13, 2013


Yeah, I'd be surprised to see any negative repercussions from Dick Whitman this season.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:36 AM on May 13, 2013


"My mother can go to hell and Ted Chaugh can fly her there!"
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:40 AM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


As someone that has regular dealings with someone with dementia, I really liked this plot development. Pete comes from an incredibly disfunctional family ( the only one worse is Don). God, I have empathy for him. It would be hard enough to deal with if he had Trudy's help.

I like how this plays against Don's disconnect from all human connections except the sexual.

Also Ted's flyboy garb would have been very cool at the time. Aviator sunglasses were precisely that - WHAT PILOTS WORE. And WWII pilots were still relatively young and held in high esteem.
posted by readery at 7:50 AM on May 13, 2013


I agree, readery, Mama Campbell was very real and very sad. You can see both how she's used to controlling her world and how she very genuinely loves and cares for Pete. And he just doesn't have the capacity to deal.

I think Ted's acting very in-character. The advice he got from Gleason was all about how to best Don, his "enemy." A few years ago, maybe, he was just threatened by this old school guy who played the game better than him. But that game doesn't work any more. This is almost the 70s. The Sensitive New Age Guy is eventually going to be a thing, whereas the hard drinking man of mystery is just kind of over. The world doesn't exist for him anymore, just like Sylvia doesn't.

I thought her plotline was weaker than the office stuff, but a good way to illustrate Don's insecurities, and man, do I love her for saying no to that bullshit eventually. It's not that she doesn't trust him. It's that she has been using him all along, not the other way around.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:55 AM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


As someone that has regular dealings with someone with dementia, I really liked this plot development. Pete comes from an incredibly disfunctional family ( the only one worse is Don). God, I have empathy for him. It would be hard enough to deal with if he had Trudy's help.

Yeah, I'm grateful that I don't have experience with dementia in someone close (not yet, perhaps) but this was a tough one. Pete's abrasiveness is upsetting but who knows how they would react in that situation. I have empathy for him. And as I said earlier, introducing Bobby's assassination through the fog of his mother's illness was brilliant. "I'm so confused, they're shooting everybody now" is both something someone who has a shaky grasp on reality with added paranoia might say, yet it's sort of actually true for 1968.
posted by sweetkid at 7:57 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Aviator sunglasses were precisely that - WHAT PILOTS WORE.

My father flew single engine planes in the mid to late 70s before I was born, for recreation, and growing up I always remember he had aviator shades lying around. No bomber jackets though.
posted by sweetkid at 7:58 AM on May 13, 2013


Whoa I just realized that this whole episode was about decaying control--Mrs. Campbell, Don, Joan.

God, I love this show.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:59 AM on May 13, 2013 [7 favorites]




I know that opinions were split about whether Joan should have fired Scarlett (I thought it was fine; impulsive decisions with big consequences for underlings seems like a fine SCDP partner move), but I yelled at the TV when she was directing people into new offices. Oh, Joan, let Moira take care of it.

I did like how under Joan's direction Harry lost his office to Peggy, though.
posted by purpleclover at 8:22 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


The TLo recap reminded me of one of my favorite Peggy/Ted parallels from this episode: Ted gives up his seat in the boardroom so Moira doesn't have to stand, and later Peggy stands and pulls drunk Ted into her chair in the creative room.

I'm starting to like the idea of Peggy/Ted, but he needs to leave his wife first.

I did like how under Joan's direction Harry lost his office to Peggy, though.

Peggy got Harry's old office, the one with the pillar in it, that had been Pete's office. Looks like Roger got Harry's office on the second floor. I'd have to rewatch to see where Harry ended up. It would be hilarious if Bert Cooper was left without an office again.
posted by donajo at 8:26 AM on May 13, 2013


Inspired by his time in Detroit, David Algonquin pens a novel about a police officer who, following a near fatal injury, has his body melded with that of a machine, becoming the law in a lawless city.
posted by drezdn at 8:27 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Peggy got Harry's old office, the one with the pillar in it, that had been Pete's office.

Oh, boo.
posted by purpleclover at 8:31 AM on May 13, 2013


Cutler's glasses and Roger's glasses are my OTP. They need to get married and have a bunch of little monocles.

Gross.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:34 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I want Roger and Jim to start walking down the halls in unison, completing each other's sentences.
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I woke up this morning still thinking of the rheumy, sad Don Draper eyes.
posted by mynameisluka at 8:36 AM on May 13, 2013


I woke up this morning still thinking of the rheumy, sad Don Draper eyes

In the elevator? That was the most unattractive I have ever seen Jon Hamm look. Damn. His thin set mouth. So strange.

I still don't really understand why he likes Sylvia so much, or got so attached.
posted by sweetkid at 8:40 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


This episode is going to require another viewing (along with not skipping over the Oreo commercial apparently). Some initial thoughts about Sylvia/Don:

The look of panic and dread on Don's face in the elevator in the first scene was infectious. I'm sure we were all thinking "CLOSECLOSECLOSECLOSE" as he stabbed at the Close Door button. It's clear he is not looking forward to the changes in his relationship, such as it is, with Sylvia. He doesn't call her that morning and even plans to work all day in the office (or at least be in the office all day). It's only when she presses him and stresses how he is the only thing that she needs right now, etc. flips him to deciding to go all in. May as well lay down the rules and give her the uniform if she thinks she wants him.

And I loved how Sylvia wasn't just not into the idea, but just didn't seem to get the point of the idea. "What? Your shoes are right over there." Then she enjoys it for a bit but later is back to the practical side of things. What, we're not going to eat? Wait, why are you taking my book?

If Don hadn't seemed so affected by Sylvia's eventual rejection of the idea you might have thought he was trying to get her to break up with him once he realized she was now free to have a deeper relationship.

Roger's re-firing of Burt was a magnificent collection of rapid-fire one-liners.

The look on Ted's face as he is flying out of the clouds and saying "NOT NOW" to Don was hysterical. Then Don takes out his book to read as if it was any other flight. Later he probably asked what the movie would be and when the drinks cart would come around.
posted by mikepop at 8:42 AM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


Also, from Twitter

"Dom Draper."
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also Bob, you say that you feel faint and your chest hurts, that's how you get to a bed quickly, not ... accidental furniture polish drinking (unless that was some kind of crazy mixed-up 60s doctor code or ...whatever.)
posted by The Whelk at 8:55 AM on May 13, 2013


So, is Ken Cosgrove going to be running GM out of Detroit, or is he just out there hiring and setting up the office? Sounds like he still has other accounts.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:58 AM on May 13, 2013


from the AV club comments: This merger is looking more and more like Matt Weiner's allegory for the Vietnam War: a few guys get the bright idea to fight a war in a way they perceive as different yet still traditional (the US general's approach/Don & Ted wanting to compete with the big firms) only to have the status quo of the way things work and their own inner dysfunction mire them in a quagmire that will ultimately ruin them all. But both the war in Southeast Asia and the war in advertising will be slow boils, overwhelming those involved when they least expect it.
posted by The Whelk at 9:10 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's funny how the merger started out as "1+1=Superagency!" and now it's like, "Oops, we don't have enough offices, guess we'll cut half the staff," so instead of being two little agencies, or one big agency, they're just one little agency with twice as many partners.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:21 AM on May 13, 2013


And twice as many clients.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:23 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also: Given how much the show relies on scenes like this, I have to imagine that the audition for every important recurring role is "wordlessly convey a complex mix of emotions while riding in an elevator."
posted by The Whelk at 9:25 AM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


Don may very well be the better copywriter, Chrysostom, while Ted is better at leading a team.

Don Draper is a hack.

I still don't really understand why he likes Sylvia so much, or got so attached.

Linda Cardellini.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:36 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


they're just one little agency with twice as many partners.

WELCOME TO ADVERTISING.
posted by sweetkid at 9:37 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]



I still don't really understand why he likes Sylvia so much, or got so attached.

Linda Cardellini.


yeah, I know who she is, but no. I don't see any charisma or charm in her character, and the acting is really wooden to me. There's no there there, at all.
posted by sweetkid at 9:38 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't see any charisma or charm in her character, and the acting is really wooden to me. There's no there there, at all.

Hey, finally, back to Betty! Sometimes attraction is not that complicated.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:42 AM on May 13, 2013


Yeah, but see, I don't agree that Betty has no charisma, or charm, or that January Jones is a bad actor.

It's just my opinion that the Sylvia character is uninteresting, but regardless of that Don has a sort of outsized interest in her compared to all his other mistresses. It might just be that he's feeling especially lost in this moment compared to other points in this series, and clinging to something that feels special.
posted by sweetkid at 9:45 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sylvia just came off as super-plot device-y to me which is fine except she was supposed to be a major character and it's more like INSERT INTERCHANGEABLE BRUNETTE MISTRESS
posted by The Whelk at 9:45 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


yep.
posted by sweetkid at 9:46 AM on May 13, 2013


INSERT INTERCHANGEABLE BRUNETTE MISTRESS

I honestly think this is pretty much the point.

Sylvia is pretty interesting to me in that she care about things the men in her life tells her she should not. Her son. Arnold. Even Megan. And she refuses to forgo those loyalties, as we saw in this week's episode. Don wants her to exist for him. So does Arnold. But there's room in her heart for only one man-child, which is her actual child. I don't know. I suspect she's really gone, but the more I think about her the more I found her role in this episode pretty fascinating. She's not even Bobbie Barrett, playing the game along with Don, struggling to get on top. She doesn't have to struggle. She knows she calls the shots here.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:48 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm confused by your comment PhoB. If she calls the shots, then she's not the interchangeable brunette mistress, is she? I feel like you're saying she has a pretty unique role here, and I agree, but somehow it just doesn't come off for me.
posted by sweetkid at 10:51 AM on May 13, 2013


I don't think she's supposed to be especially distinctive in the role Don (and the viewer) assumes she's playing in his life, but the more we know about her as an individual, the more she distinguishes herself.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:57 AM on May 13, 2013


ah, ok. That makes sense.
posted by sweetkid at 11:10 AM on May 13, 2013


Honestly I really think it's the degrading cyclical nature of the Don Draper narrative. Don is the same person he was in season 1, but even the housewives and mistresses have changed. Sylvia is much more a Trudy than a Midge or even a Rachel.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:13 AM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]




Oh and man, I'm glad that other people are starting to realize that Draper sucks at advertising. That hackneyed, nostalgic pitch for margarine was awful.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:26 AM on May 13, 2013





Oh and man, I'm glad that other people are starting to realize that Draper sucks at advertising. That hackneyed, nostalgic pitch for margarine was awful.


I think it was supposed to be a deliberate drop off from, say, the Kodak Carousel.
posted by sweetkid at 11:27 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Deal With It
posted by The Whelk at 11:30 AM on May 13, 2013


Also, mohawk vs. NY thruway, airplanes vs. cars, Don's driving aviators vs. Ted's flying aviators. Ted flying looked a little bit like Don driving but so much cooler.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:33 AM on May 13, 2013


I think my favorite scene in the entire episode was the boardroom scene, when Pete comes in and sees there is nowhere to sit. All that macho posturing and jockeying for position, and even the secretaries are trying to figure out the pecking order amongst themselves.

But once it becomes clear it's Moira who will give up her seat, Ted offers her his own and then perches on the edge of a table (something a woman in a dress couldn't do without looking unprofessional and immodest) nonchalantly, winning the "Who's the Man" contest by not competing (and scoring a lot of points with all the women working in the office).

I enjoyed it on its own merits, but also because it reminded me of the Game of Thrones scene with the musical chairs, where Varys, Littlefinger, Cersie and Tyrion jockey for position.

Tyrion, of course, "won" that scene by sitting at a position of equal power with his father, while also making a mockery of the whole process (the heavy chair being dragged, squealing in protest, across the floor, drawing attention to the embarrassing black sheep of the family and forcing his father to wait for a change--we all know how Tywin enjoys making people wait for him).

But Varys also won by not winning. His subtlety is his strength; he is at his most powerful when he and his little birds fly under your radar and you forget they are even a threat. Same thing with Ted.

Don't underestimate the power of subtlety! Peggy pretty much called Don on that when she told him he needed to grow up and stop playing drinking games, like any of that mattered. It had to floor him when she suggested he had a lot to learn from Ted.

Don's looking more and more like a dinosaur these days.
posted by misha at 11:58 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Great, now I've got "Bob Benson The Friendly Ghost!" stuck in my head
posted by The Whelk at 12:02 PM on May 13, 2013


Sooooo, Don's little dom/sub show there, how much of that was to unconsciously or not, designed to push Sylvia away so she doesn't grow attached to him with her husband gone or try to spill the beans?
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


One thing that felt very anachronistic to me was the, "Put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye," line.

I know there was a time when kids were told to duck and cover and hide under their desks, but the parody of that, with the "Kiss your ass good-bye" showed up on this poster in 1970, and I'm not sure people would already be saying it in an office in 1968, right around the time when Bobby Kennedy was killed.

Okay, admittedly It also felt anachronistic because people of my generation heard it in the movie Volcano. But still!
posted by misha at 12:26 PM on May 13, 2013


I feel like Ted's personality has been ret-conned a bit. In season 4, he was a bit of an ass, not this earnest, just-wants-to-work-hard straight-shooter that he is now.

Keep in mind Season 4 was years ago, in show time. It feels recent to us because most TV is about characters not ever changing. But Ted could definitely have been a cocky young hot-shot who mellowed out over the course of a few years.
posted by Sara C. at 12:30 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


yeah that's true Sara C.
posted by sweetkid at 12:35 PM on May 13, 2013


Sara C.: "I feel like Ted's personality has been ret-conned a bit. In season 4, he was a bit of an ass, not this earnest, just-wants-to-work-hard straight-shooter that he is now.

Keep in mind Season 4 was years ago, in show time. It feels recent to us because most TV is about characters not ever changing. But Ted could definitely have been a cocky young hot-shot who mellowed out over the course of a few years.
"

I also think that in his early appearances, we were seeing him through Don's eyes. Now we've been exposed to Ted through Peggy's point of view (and she was very skeptical at first, too, so like her we weren't sure how seriously to take him or his job offer). Don saw Ted as an annoying gnat buzzing around his head, so that was all we were shown of him.

I agree that he's probably mellowed a bit with success in the meantime, too.
posted by Superplin at 12:45 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


From the Grantland review: Joan is really even more appealing when she drops the sex-kitten character, which she does increasingly often these days.

Yes. YES, so true.
posted by sweetkid at 12:50 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


misha: "One thing that felt very anachronistic to me was the, "Put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye," line. "

My grandfather had WWII stories that included this line (which I think came from the crash position one took in an airplane going down?). Possibly he added it anachronistically. :)

Google n-grams shows it appearing in 1962 or so?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:52 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is anybody else really tired of the Godfather-esque scoring in all scenes with Sylvia?

We get it. She's Italian, and devout, and a sensual mishmash of sexy and shrewish and tragic. You don't have to literally play the Godfather score for us.

(Faye's father was in the actual mafia, and yet they never pulled half as many mawkish "ITALIAN LADY" cliches. I also don't recall any score call-backs to Fiddler on the Roof or Yentl in Rachel's scenes.)

That said, I for one am glad she largely called Don on his "it puts the lotion on its skin..." bullshit, and not in a coy way, or in a frigid way, or in an unsexy "I am a practical homemaker" way, but in an 'I'm sorry, but that won't be possible" way.

I kind of expected her to look up at him when he first asked her to crawl for his shoes and say, "What, is Megan too busy on her soap opera?"
posted by Sara C. at 1:15 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]



That said, I for one am glad she largely called Don on his "it puts the lotion on its skin..." bullshit, and not in a coy way, or in a frigid way, or in an unsexy "I am a practical homemaker" way, but in an 'I'm sorry, but that won't be possible" way.


...I guess. I mean she had to go home sometime. Like I said maybe it's just because the actor doesn't click for me, but I don't see Sylvia as that empowered or calling the shots, she just seems like a bored housewife married to a bland but sweet guy who gets attention from the opposite, a handsome asshole, and is turned on by it.
posted by sweetkid at 1:21 PM on May 13, 2013


Like I said maybe it's just because the actor doesn't click for me

See, the sheer fact that it's Linda Cardellini, whose specialty is conveying unease and anxiety in a thousand different ways by moving a single mouth-muscle, makes the character come off as empowered to me. Lindsay Weir was similarly often put into situations where she was completely out of her depth and didn't know how to respond, but ultimately she was more than willing to walk out of a situation she didn't want to be in. And that's how I've read Sylvia from the start: yeah, she's getting something out of this, and yeah, some things that Don does confuse her, but she's okay with liking what's happening while keeping an eye out for when things go sour, as just happened.
posted by Rory Marinich at 1:26 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


That hackneyed, nostalgic pitch for margarine was awful.

It's also, like, ever hackneyed ad for any domestic product, ever. Like, seriously, I can actually think of an ad for Pilsbury from my childhood (80's/90's) that was exactly that, but instead of pancakes its Crescent Rolls or Cinnamon Rolls or Christmas Cookies.

I was also very confused by the Dorothea Lange reference. It felt off, to me, because Dorothea Lange took photos of farmers who looked like this. Probably not what Don was trying to convey.

I'm not sure if that's bad research on the part of the script department, or supposed to be an oddly morbid mental image a la the Hawaii pitch. When I think of Dorothea Lange and dairy farmers and margarine in the same sentence, I don't exactly think of nostalgic domesticity. I think of the Dust Bowl and people who have to eat margarine because the cow got smothered in a dust storm. That said, I know more about Dorothea Lange than the average bear. So maybe it's just me.
posted by Sara C. at 1:28 PM on May 13, 2013


Ted offers her his own and then perches on the edge of a table (something a woman in a dress couldn't do without looking unprofessional and immodest) nonchalantly, winning the "Who's the Man" contest by not competing (and scoring a lot of points with all the women working in the office).

He also looks cool and casual and modern, whereas Pete looks like a blowhard.

Seriously, I don't think Ted is supposed to be a decade younger than Pete, and yet he absolutely looks it.
posted by Sara C. at 1:30 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was also very confused by the Dorothea Lange reference. It felt off, to me, because Dorothea Lange took photos of farmers who looked like this. Probably not what Don was trying to convey.

I think it was supposed to be a terrible and even sort of offensive idea. Like Don is really off his game. Because yeah Dorothea Lange wtf.

people who have to eat margarine because the cow got smothered in a dust storm

HAHAHA. "How are we gonna tell the kids?"
posted by sweetkid at 1:31 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I was also very confused by the Dorothea Lange reference. It felt off, to me, because Dorothea Lange took photos of farmers who looked like this. Probably not what Don was trying to convey.

If Don really wanted the Lange imagery, it could be a call back to his early childhood.
posted by drezdn at 1:38 PM on May 13, 2013


I thought of that, too, drezdn, but it's still not a fond memory you want to sell forward to other people. Especially since there were still plenty of people who remembered the depression at the time.
posted by sweetkid at 1:40 PM on May 13, 2013


To be clear re Sylvia, I don't think she necessarily came off as a balls-out feminist or anything, but it was refreshing to see her answer Don's command to get his shoes with, "WTF no not really".

I think mostly that's out of fear that the show was going to have her just go along with it, like, yeah, this is what sex is, and if a guy asks you to do something you think is weird, don't worry your pretty little head about it.

I liked that you could see the wheels turning at each request, and you could see her thinking it was a little bit sexy, but kind of fucked up, and wanting to play the game on her own terms (the book, the expectation that they'd go out), and then finally getting bored and taking her ball and going home.

Again, still don't actually LIKE the Sylvia storyline, but they handled this subplot a lot better than they could have.
posted by Sara C. at 1:41 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


sweetkid: "I thought of that, too, drezdn, but it's still not a fond memory you want to sell forward to other people. Especially since there were still plenty of people who remembered the depression at the time."

My impression was that he was riffing on memory, but had kind of forgotten the selling part of the equation. Note the contrast between Don's Dorothea Lange scenario, and the elements of prosperity Ted tosses in: cows, because even the dairy farmer's wife prefers margarine to butter, and bacon.
posted by Superplin at 1:42 PM on May 13, 2013


BTW people's cows absolutely did get smothered in dust storms. I read a book about the Dust Bowl recently, and that shit was DIRE.
posted by Sara C. at 1:43 PM on May 13, 2013


yea i know it was just a funny mental picture. Like when a kid turns in a blank piece of paper and the teacher is like "what did you draw?" and the kid says "a white sheep in a snowstorm."
posted by sweetkid at 1:44 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, but I still don't think Don would think nostalgically about Dorothea Lange's photos, even if they hit home for him as a child of the Depression.

Or, I don't know, maybe he does, but I'm pretty sure a moment's thought would make anybody realize that most other people won't.

I'm fairly sure that it's either meant to be another shitty aspect of a shitty drunken pitch, or it's an oversight by the script department.

(Like maybe bad googling led the intern to assume that Dorothea Lange was someone famous for photographing farmers, which she sort of was, but not in that way, and nobody in the writer's room happened to know anything about the WPA at all, and it just slipped in.)
posted by Sara C. at 1:48 PM on May 13, 2013


I would be surprised if it were an accident. I think a lot of people know who she was?
posted by sweetkid at 1:50 PM on May 13, 2013


Yeah, I'm voting "shitty drunken pitch."
posted by Superplin at 1:58 PM on May 13, 2013


When I think of Dorothea Lange and dairy farmers and margarine in the same sentence, I don't exactly think of nostalgic domesticity.

When I think of dairy farmers and margarine in the same sentence, it is to remember my grandfather, the dairy farmer, who was Extremely Particular about buying the Right Kind Of Butter (Land O'Lakes, nothing else would do.) Bringing margarine into his house would have been akin to showing up at a rabbi's house with a side of bacon. I distinctly remember being shocked when visiting my grandmother, maybe ten years after my grandfather passed away, and seeing margarine on the table. It would not have happened while he was alive.

So yeah, even without the Dorothea Lange reference (wtf? maybe the writers meant Norman Rockwell and had a collective brain fart?) the dairy farmer pitch just fell flat for me. Badly.
posted by ambrosia at 1:58 PM on May 13, 2013


Yeah, no, I agree that enough people should know who Dorothea Lange is, and usually the show's attention to detail is great. I also think it's just a shitty part of a stupid pitch.

But whaaaa? Dorothea Lange? Really?
posted by Sara C. at 2:01 PM on May 13, 2013


As a defender of Don's more out there pitches, I thought the dairy farmer pitch was laaaaame.

If cause I see a farm, I think cows and then I think milk and butter and then why are we eating this Not Butter?
posted by The Whelk at 2:01 PM on May 13, 2013


ambrosia: "So yeah, even without the Dorothea Lange reference (wtf? maybe the writers meant Norman Rockwell and had a collective brain fart?) the dairy farmer pitch just fell flat for me. Badly."

I think this was deliberate. Very advertising-y, to suggest that despite the ready availability of fresh butter, the dairy farmer's wife is happy to serve Fleishmann's.

I was raised on this stuff. Seriously, my mother refused to buy butter, and also refused to buy any margarine other than Fleishmann's, because she was convinced it was the healthiest, highest quality option. She didn't see it as a compromise in any way.

So whatever ad campaign the company did in real life, it worked. At least on my mom.
posted by Superplin at 2:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh yes I agree, it was deliberate. Don is off his game, and it shows. Season Two Don would have ripped someone a new asshole for proposing something that hokey.
posted by ambrosia at 2:04 PM on May 13, 2013


OK given that we know how margarine was actually advertised in the 60's and beyond, who do we think comes up with the "Daddy might have been a dairy farmer, but I use margarine because it's lower in cholesterol" finished ad?

(My family, too, in the 80's and into the 90's, was a margarine household, and for "health" reasons. I don't recall us having any particular brand loyalty. To this day my mom uses Spray Butter and all kinds of godforsaken toast lubrication substances.)
posted by Sara C. at 2:05 PM on May 13, 2013


My family, too, in the 80's and into the 90's, was a margarine household

ugh, I think most families were, not realizing we were rocketing toward an unsalted grass-fed artisanal new millennium.
posted by sweetkid at 2:10 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


The white toast triangles with margarine brought be straight back to breakfasts at my grandparents' house, by the way. Speaking of nostalgia.

(My grandfather grew up on a dairy farm, too!)

In seriousness, though, I think either this conversation, or that mawkish margarine brainstorm, or some conversation that someone in creative is going to have about Fleishmann's is dancing around the idea that, in the 60's up through maybe the 90's, people weren't nostalgic for stuff like growing up on a farm. Everything your parents did was icky, outmoded, and vaguely unwholesome. You wanted a house in the suburbs, diet soda, strip malls, and something low-fat to spread on your toast. You wanted better living through chemistry and a man on the moon. You didn't want anything that seemed like it came off a farm in the 1930's.

I did a project in middle school (1992, maybe '93) where I had to interview my grandmother about what her life was like when she was my age. It was one big horror story of living on a farm in the middle of nowhere and having to wear ugly unisex army boots* (hand-me-downs, natch) and work in the fields after school. Two generations later, people like me are excited about that kind of life and would love to raise our kids that way.

Needless to say I don't think a bucolic farm-inspired nostalgia fest is how SCDPCFCoaihwefdscowesd is going to sell margarine.

*I started wearing Doc Martens around that same age. Woman was HORRIFIED.
posted by Sara C. at 2:15 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


ugh, Margarine. Margarine and Margie and Peggy and Megan.
posted by sweetkid at 2:20 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


Sara C.: "I did a project in middle school (1992, maybe '93) where I had to interview my grandmother about what her life was like when she was my age. It was one big horror story of living on a farm in the middle of nowhere and having to wear ugly unisex army boots* (hand-me-downs, natch) and work in the fields after school. Two generations later, people like me are excited about that kind of life and would love to raise our kids that way."

Clearly I am a product of my time, because aside from the boots (I love my Doc Martens), nothing about that lifestyle appeals to me at all. Give me a downtown loft and a coffee shop with wifi and a good farmers' market, but keep me away from the actual farm.
posted by Superplin at 2:24 PM on May 13, 2013


Oh, yeah, I realized a couple years ago that while running my own artisanal dairy goat farm might sound really fun, there would probably be nowhere to get good Thai food. And so I remain a city girl.

But I definitely think there is at least an aesthetic nostalgia for the rural world in US culture today which not only wasn't present in the time depicted on Mad Men, but this artisanal nostalgia is a direct reaction of our generation to being raised on margarine and tang.

(Though I think the very first "back to the land" ideas are getting kicked around by hippies in San Francisco circa '68, so. It fascinates me how the modernity of the second half of the 20th century is being born and dying all at the same time.)
posted by Sara C. at 2:29 PM on May 13, 2013


I am of the artisanal-butter-used-to-have-Docs generation but have bad allergies so let others raise the goats and beets.
posted by sweetkid at 2:33 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Going back to this actual episode, did anybody else feel like Don was being left behind? Acting out his little sexual psychodramas in a hotel room while his company merges, his old rival leads his creative team, his mistress worries about her son in the middle of the Paris student uprising, and the whole country mourns not one but TWO important political figures that have just been assassinated?

I think Joan even says something earlier in the episode, about Don's office: "It's always the same in there, no matter how much it changes in here..."

In the summer of 1968 nobody has the luxury of holing up in the Sherry Netherland playing sex games. Except for Don, I guess.
posted by Sara C. at 2:42 PM on May 13, 2013


yes, but Don gets called out on that by Teddy, who I keep wanting to call Kevin because he looks like Blossom's older brother.
posted by sweetkid at 2:45 PM on May 13, 2013


Seriously, I don't think Ted is supposed to be a decade younger than Pete, and yet he absolutely looks it.

Seriously, isn't Ted a good few years older than Pete? But Pete was curdled into his Future Grumpy Old Man look and petulant little face prematurely, so he looks much older then his age would suggest. ( Bob is like what, 26? Hes still in collegic blazers and foofy schoolboy hair, which I tell you from personal experience, still makes a guy look half his age.)
posted by The Whelk at 2:53 PM on May 13, 2013


Sara C., I agree. The callbacks in these last two episodes, and this one in particular, are clearly meant to show how the world swirls and evolves chaotically around him, but Don remains the same. I thought this episode was like a fractal pattern, filled with past references that showed people in similar situations with very different dynamics to highlight how things have changed over time: Joan helping Peggy move into her office, Sylvia as Don's latest "ethnic" whore stand-in, another Kennedy death punctuated with Pete's "That was years ago," etc.

Don didn't even like it when they moved his desk to accommodate the photo shoot.

Pete looks and acts like a middle-aged curmudgeon, but as a slightly off-kilter photocopy of Don (or Don wannabe), he is forced kicking and screaming into change, and is better able to adapt. Roger went through his transformational epiphany, with a little help from Lucy. Don, on the other hand, has lots of seeming epiphanies, but they're as superficial and ephemeral as his ad campaigns. Nothing sticks.

This is unlikely to end well. (Not that that's a surprise to anyone.)
posted by Superplin at 3:16 PM on May 13, 2013


Sylvia as Don's latest "ethnic" whore stand-in

Was anyone else reminded of some Bobbie Barrett shenanigan or other with the whole hotel room scenario? Did they ever hole up in a hotel room? Or maybe take "long lunches" in one?

Didn't Don once tie Bobbie to a bed and wander off? Or was it the other way around?
posted by Sara C. at 3:22 PM on May 13, 2013


Yeah, the beach house, don tied her to the bed ( not GGG Don!) and wandered off.
posted by The Whelk at 3:24 PM on May 13, 2013


Didn't Don once tie Bobbie to a bed and wander off? Or was it the other way around?

Yep. Don seemed to want to "punish" Bobbie for saying that she'd heard all about his reputation, the same way he tried to "punish" Sylvia for talking about her husband.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:24 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


This is unlikely to end well.

I don't know, really?

In the actual real life 60s there were thousands if not millions of people left behind by the social changes in exactly the way Don is being. Those people mostly marched on, usually being treated as punchlines in the media. Archie Bunker comes to mind.

In 1990, Don's new secretary tries to teach him how to use the PC that appeared on his desk while he was on vacation. He pushes it to the side so that he can prop his feet up on the desk. Three weeks later it is relegated to a closet.

This is discovered a year later, when Don's office is being cleared out the Monday morning after his retirement party.
posted by Sara C. at 3:28 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


One thing I was surprised by with the margarine rap session is that no one, not even Ginsberg, mentioned that margarine is kinda a pretty Jewish cultural thing. I mean, I grew up in a family that used exclusively margarine (despite the fact that my grandfather was a milkman) because my grandmother was concerned with keeping kosher. So Don's pitch, all built around the essential butter-ness of margarine, seems extra weird to me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:28 PM on May 13, 2013


It fascinates me that, after all Bob's sucking up to Pete, it's Joan who saves his job. Especially since, as far as I could tell, he was acting out of genuine caring and good will and not trying to ingratiate himself with her.
posted by Sara C. at 3:39 PM on May 13, 2013


In Inside Mad Men, Matt Weiner mentions that "Bob goes with Joan to the hospital, to be kind to her for whatever reason" (paraphrase). The "for whatever reason" makes me think there is a reason, and it isn't good.

But who knows. We always think this show is going to have an *EVIL* reveal but it's really just flawed people doing some good stuff and some bad stuff (and that's why I love it)
posted by sweetkid at 3:42 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


On a totally different note and back to margarine, it just occurred to me that Don's margarine pitch calls back to another scene with another character, a few seasons ago.

So remember the guy (whose name I forget, ugh) who first shepherded Peggy along the way to becoming a copywriter? And then later, he has an alcoholism-fueled breakdown and disappears for a while, somewhat paving the way for Peggy to come into her own?

Well there's an episode in the fourth season where he comes back and is set to work on a pitch for Pond's cold cream with Peggy.

Peggy is trying to figure out how to sell Pond's to younger women, since it mostly reminds people of their grandmother. And Guy just keeps throwing out the most antiquated ideas, ideas that would just never work, like Tallulah bankhead backstage after opening night. Peggy takes one look at him, tells him his ideas are too old-fashioned, and that he's off the gig.

That's what the "margarine on a farm" idea sounded like, to Ted.

(Even though it sounds halfway OK, if hackneyed, to us in 2013 because people are using "...on a farm" to sell everything nowadays.)
posted by Sara C. at 3:46 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I mean, I grew up in a family that used exclusively margarine (despite the fact that my grandfather was a milkman) because my grandmother was concerned with keeping kosher. So Don's pitch, all built around the essential butter-ness of margarine, seems extra weird to me.

I ...have never heard of this. Can you expand?
posted by The Whelk at 3:47 PM on May 13, 2013



So remember the guy (whose name I forget, ugh) who first shepherded Peggy along the way to becoming a copywriter? And then later, he has an alcoholism-fueled breakdown and disappears for a while, somewhat paving the way for Peggy to come into her own?


Freddy Rumsen.
posted by sweetkid at 3:48 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I ...have never heard of this. Can you expand?

Margarine is neither dairy nor meat, therefore it can go on anything. Butter, you gotta keep that stuff separate.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:49 PM on May 13, 2013


I don't know. I kind of felt like Bob wouldn't have gone all the way to the hospital with her and waited in the emergency room and then taken it upon himself to lie her into a bed, AND THEN bring her kid a present, all for mercenary reasons.

I mean, sure, he might have thought "YEAH FINALLY THIS IS MY IN" when he first started helping Joan, but surely he must have had some legitimately caring feelings about it or he wouldn't have stayed with her.

Or maybe he really is that sociopathic.

I don't even bother with anything Weiner says because it never makes any sense to me. Though I suppose he knows what's ahead for these characters.
posted by Sara C. at 3:50 PM on May 13, 2013


I don't even bother with anything Weiner says because it never makes any sense to me. Though I suppose he knows what's ahead for these characters.

Yeah, I don't agree with his interpretations of like character motivations and themes and stuff, but it seemed weirdly like maybe a hint of something. Although yes, Bob doesn't seem that mercenary, and as I mentioned there isn't usually a big reveal of evil in a character. Also, I love Bob.
posted by sweetkid at 3:52 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I just think it's an odd turn of phrase, "goes to the hospital with her for whatever reason." Like, as opposed to the reasons anybody might accompany someone to the hospital in a situation like this? That's not an act that people usually need Reasons to do.

Who was with Peggy when she "had food poisoning" at the end of Season 1?
posted by Sara C. at 3:54 PM on May 13, 2013


I mean, sure, he might have thought "YEAH FINALLY THIS IS MY IN" when he first started helping Joan, but surely he must have had some legitimately caring feelings about it or he wouldn't have stayed with her.

It could go either way, really. Probably a big helping of both.

The guy he was supposed to answer to just got fired. Bob was next on the chopping block, and he knew it.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:57 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


"goes to the hospital with her for whatever reason."

Is that the actual phrase though? I was paraphrasing and that's not my paraphrase. I'll have to relisten later.
posted by sweetkid at 3:58 PM on May 13, 2013


Relistened - "Bob Benson, for whatever reason, takes this as an opportunity to help her."
posted by sweetkid at 4:01 PM on May 13, 2013


I think that's what I heard as slightly ominous.
posted by sweetkid at 4:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


As much I've been enjoying this season, there hasn't been nearly enough Sally Draper. Not cool, Mad Men.
posted by billyfleetwood at 4:03 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I ...have never heard of this. Can you expand?

Margarine is neither dairy nor meat, therefore it can go on anything. Butter, you gotta keep that stuff separate.


Yep. The laws of kashrut say you can't mix dairy and meat at a meal (because "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk") so Jews can't butter their bread and then eat a nice roast at the same meal. But margarine is safe. This is also why Jews keeping kosher often have two sets of dishes or even two kitchens.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:04 PM on May 13, 2013


You guys would be far less pro-Bob Benson if you saw the "friendzone" rant he posted on Facebook the other day.
posted by drezdn at 4:06 PM on May 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


Hm. Why did my Irish and Italian Catholic family use margarine in the '80s? Fear of cholesterol, I guess. (The professor wins the day.)
posted by purpleclover at 4:09 PM on May 13, 2013


I had heard of the separate kitchen/meat not mixing with dairy but I didn't know it extended to butter in that way- this is what i get for growing up around shrimp eating reform Jews.

Yeah all marketing for Margarine was health based, it's better than butter, and in the 70s-80s-90s butter was seen as slightly worse then black tar heroin.
posted by The Whelk at 4:12 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Indian Hindu-Agnostic-Christian-I was-never-sure-where-they-were-going-with-religion-actually-nonvegetarian family in the 80s, we ate margarine too because butter = bad, heart health.
posted by sweetkid at 4:16 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yup, butter is dairy. Once you've shared a few Thanksgiving dinners with friends who keep kosher*, it isn't something you ever forget.

*love my friends, not doing that again.
posted by ambrosia at 4:16 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I find it so hilarious that the creative scooby gang (Ugh they have GOT to name their agency soon) is sitting on what would turn out to be a marketing goldmine, but they're like, "uhhhhhh, I enjoy toast...."

The even funnier thing is that it's like the opposite of the show's cigarette advertising dilemma that was the first major advertising storyline of the series. People are CLAMORING for a bunch of experts to tell them to buy this "healthy" product. The scooby gang just hasn't realized it yet.

Is this what it feels like to really enjoy a good Law & Order marathon?
posted by Sara C. at 4:20 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Indian Hindu-Agnostic-Christian-never-sure-where-they-were-going-with-religion-actually-nonvegetarian family in the 80s, we ate margarine too because butter = bad, heart health.

Ditto, Presbyterian. Legend has it, my family's conversion to margarine started with my great-grandfather, a dairy farmer (!) with a heart condition.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:21 PM on May 13, 2013


I'm pretty sure my dairy farmer side of the family (and eventually EVERYONE in my family) went margarine because they also happen to be a bunch of cheap motherfuckers.

But heart health, yes.

(Exactly how fucked was everyone's heart in the 60's that this was such a huge fucking deal? And are we butter-adopters headed back in that direction?)
posted by Sara C. at 4:22 PM on May 13, 2013


This is where we need Faye to do some serious market research and help the gang tap into the zeitgeist. With science!
posted by Superplin at 4:33 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


People in thier 40s in 1968 had grew up in a world where people smoked way way way more from a much younger age and ate the kind of huge heavy meals we would save for speical occasions every day. plus, the casual heavy drinking. Not so much a thing anymore. There was an FPP about menus from the 30s and such a while back and I think griphus wondered aloud " how did people not drop dead from heart attacks all the time" and then some came up with public health statistics to say " uuuuh they kinda did."
posted by The Whelk at 4:42 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


Someone from CGC should call in Faye, only to be like "Oops, didn't know we shouldn't have done that" when she shows up at SCDCCCP.
posted by drezdn at 4:45 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm fascinated by the idea, both in the dialogue of the show and in discussions like this, that Don Draper is so complex. He's not, really. He can't ever be happy with what he has because what he has is a lie, and he can't escape that. The only time he's ever seemed content is when he was with Anna in LA.
posted by dry white toast at 6:09 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


While I think that's true, I disagree that there's nothing more to Don Draper than an inability to accept reality and be happy with it.
posted by Superplin at 6:40 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


A simple truth can illuminate a lot about a person and still say next to nothing about the whole of their being.

I think the difference between Mad Men and a show that doesn't suck is that Mad Men rarely is directly about Don's feelings about his feigned identity. It's not even often about any of the various issues, psychological or otherwise, that stem from that manufactured self. It has constructed Don to the point that his actions stem from a bunch of different impulses and feelings and connections to people, all of which are influenced by his past, but none of which owe themselves entirely to said past either. Which is the way people actually work and which is very hard to depict in writing, not in the least because it can be hard for a writer to admit they don't entirely know their own character. It takes some self-control to let a work of fiction escape you, like raising a child if you were able to stop your kid from growing past the exact day and age you want to keep 'em in.

Part of me wants to spiral from that into a little discourse on Don's creative process/personal life and how they interact and how that says interesting things about creative processes in general, and consequently how one of the more fascinating things about Don is how well-realized he is as a creative person, but out of respect for all of you and every living being I resisted the temptation.
posted by Rory Marinich at 7:01 PM on May 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


So, apropos of pretty much nothing (possibly inspired by forgetting Freddy Rumsen's name?), I decided to start watching Mad Men from the beginning.

Guys, the pilot is like a whole other PLANET. It is impossible to believe that this world and 1968 world are less than a decade apart.
posted by Sara C. at 7:11 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


I did a rewatch recently too, and even though Ted looks very modern next to Pete and Don, the CGC offices reminded me of the old Sterling Cooper offices. All dark and stodgy in comparison to the airy look of SCDP.
posted by peppermind at 7:16 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I've been rewatching S1 and now S2 with my redheaded friend who hasn't seen the show at all yet. She was BLOWN AWAY when she saw "Shoot," with Betty shooting the birds. Can't wait to get her to S3.
posted by sweetkid at 7:16 PM on May 13, 2013


I've actually seen the first two seasons at least twice, and assorted episodes here and there. But all that rewatching happened before we got to the OFFICIALLY REALLY THE SIXTIES era of the show.
posted by Sara C. at 7:21 PM on May 13, 2013


yea I guess the sixties creeping in feels pretty subtle to me. In a good way, it's not flower headbands and drone music everywhere.
posted by sweetkid at 7:23 PM on May 13, 2013


Yeah, it was interesting when someone upthread pointed out how outdated the dress Don sends Sylvia from Saks is. It looked so timeless and pretty on, but that's true, it's definitely not timely in any way. I can't imagine Megan wearing that, or any of the other younger characters on the show.

It's so fascinating to see Don go from fucking a sexy beatnik in 1960 to pretending Camelot never ended in 1968.
posted by Sara C. at 7:35 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


Man, it sucks to be that third switchboard operator in the pilot. You know, the one who didn't build an entire career out of a series of car insurance commercials? The one who isn't Kristen Schaal?

Poor kid.
posted by Sara C. at 7:49 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I am going to rewatch the whole series after season six finishes. I want it all fresh in my head before season seven rolls around.
posted by crossoverman at 7:50 PM on May 13, 2013


Poor kid.

haha that's like the other season 1 American Idol host that wasn't Seacrest.
posted by sweetkid at 7:51 PM on May 13, 2013


Oh, if you're doing a rewatch from the very beginning, be sure to play a game of Count The Bobbys.

(I think Betty might have a thing where she keeps compulsively murdering her son and replacing him with another kid she's kidnapped, and everyone's just too horrified to bring it up.)
posted by Sys Rq at 9:01 PM on May 13, 2013 [6 favorites]


Count the Bobbys is too depressing to play.
posted by sweetkid at 9:03 PM on May 13, 2013


I don't know if I have it in me to rewatch seasons 3 and 4. They were so bleak and intense. But man would it be nice to have a full history of Peggy's Thermos going into Season 7.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:03 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


There's been a new Bobby every season. I thought that was just, like, an understood convention of the show.

One interesting thing that I noticed in the pilot was the other secretaries.

Hildy is in the pilot, which is a little unusual because the pilot was shot in New York but the series is shot in Los Angeles. Which means either they cast Hildy in Los Angeles and flew her out to New York to say one line, or they liked that actress so much that they brought her out to LA to recur on the show.

(It's pretty normal to recast roles like that if the show gets picked up and ultimately shoots somewhere else.)

I also could have SWORN that the actress who later plays Alison was the knockoff bunny waitress at the bachelor party.
posted by Sara C. at 9:10 PM on May 13, 2013


You guys would be far less pro-Bob Benson if you saw the "friendzone" rant he posted on Facebook the other day.

on the plus side, he's no Fedora Guy.

margarine

in our family, it was cost, relative perceived health benefits, and reusable plastic food storage tubs, which is cost again I guess. We also subsisted purely on from-powder 100% skim milk only, cost and zero cholesterol, again. I didn't even know milk was good. When I finally figured it out, and told my mom how awful the instant stuff was and how terrible it had always tasted, she burst into tears.

Finally, regarding margarine and the episode's references to France, for reasons that are obvious I kept thinking of Last Tango in Paris. But the reference seems so confused, so glancing, that I don't know what to make of it, or even if there is anything there to be beurré about.
posted by mwhybark at 9:46 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


...and Bob = Kenneth = a Time Lord. Quite so.
posted by mwhybark at 9:48 PM on May 13, 2013


Sylvia is much more a Trudy than a Midge or even a Rachel.

I think Sylvia's almost an exact repeat of Rachel. Intelligent, beautiful, compassionate--both of them fill a bit of a maternal role for Don. Each of them breaks things off with him when it becomes clear that his fantasy idea of her is... not compatible with real life. In Rachel's case, that was when he suggested they leave everything and run away together; she reacted with horror to the idea of abandoning her business and her father (and to the idea of Don's leaving his children).

Don tells Sylvia "You exist here, only for my pleasure" (or wtte); he made the same assumption pretty much about Rachel, but in the end both women rejected that idea because they had an identity (and other obligations) of their own.

Are they the only two women we've seen dump Don?
posted by torticat at 10:36 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


The idea of being kept in a hotel room à la Sylvia was, well, hot. Seriously, as a game with someone I trusted I could... go for that. But with Don you know it's not just a game and he can't handle the stresses and hard work entailed in a relationship with a woman who expects her independence and equality to be respected, so... yikes.

Sorry, I know the thread's moved on to margarine and rewatches and whatnot, but I wanted to reply to this... orange swan, I had almost exactly the opposite reaction to these scenes. I found the dom/sub stuff almost too disturbing to watch, and was hugely relieved, when Sylvia ended it, that Don did treat it like the "game" it was and accepted her decision to end it.

I think it was because of the IRL news about the abductions in Cleveland that I found those scenes so stressful to watch. Don's need for control has been a theme of the show, of course, but there's a line you don't want to see him cross. He already crossed it with Bobbie (and she got off on it at first, but not so much when he abandoned her tied to the bed).

I just felt like there was enormous tension in that episode with the viewer not knowing how much of a game this role playing actually was for Don, especially with the red dress, his mother-was-a-whore issues (and his step-mother too, as we just found out!), and so on. So... yeah, I totally agree he can't handle the work of being in a relationship with a woman who "expects her independence and equality to be respected," but I'm glad he at least still has the decency to let such a woman walk away.
posted by torticat at 11:09 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I totally agree he can't handle the work of being in a relationship with a woman who "expects her independence and equality to be respected," but I'm glad he at least still has the decency to let such a woman walk away.

I was so worried that he was going to cross a line, that when she told him it was over he'd threaten her or assault her. Don is slowly losing control over things he's always had control over. I can't see him going down without a fight - and I was worried last night would be the start of that.

I'm so glad it wasn't.
posted by crossoverman at 12:23 AM on May 14, 2013


Watching this season at the same time as Desperate Housewives (shut up, I do a lot of sewing) is really confusing. Both Lee the gay realtor and Martha Huber are in it and now I keep thinking that Ted Chaugh is Lee's dad and that Mama Holloway has a sister in prison for cutting off her own fingers.
posted by mippy at 3:25 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I woke up this morning still thinking of the rheumy, sad Don Draper eyes.

You mean his Dick Whitman face? Sara C recently had some comments on this that I'd love to hear elaborated on. About it being an actor's hack or something like that? I had the impression it had to do with being kind of a cheap/lazy trick. I'm uncritical enough that I'm still astounded every time John Hamm does that transformation--from suave, commanding, sardonic Don to bleak, scared, vulnerable Dick in an instant.

Or maybe, mynameisluka, you were just talking about his hungover face. :) Either way, Sara C, could you talk more about what it was you were describing as hackish (if I remember that correctly)?
posted by torticat at 3:48 AM on May 14, 2013


I, too, am looking forward to hearing Sara C's comment on that - but in the meantime, I have been enjoying the responses to "HELP! WHAT'S THE NAME OF THE NEW FIRM?" from the A.V. Club post linked to earlier.
posted by peagood at 4:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


When do they start throwing punctuation signs and ALL CAPS into ad firm names + & -- $^@$?
posted by stratastar at 5:50 AM on May 14, 2013


every time John Hamm does that

Ugh, Jon Hamm I mean. Normally not too worried about typos but John/Jon errors are a major pet peeve; they are kind of aesthetically offensive.
posted by torticat at 6:12 AM on May 14, 2013


Normally not too worried about typos but John/Jon errors are a major pet peeve; they are kind of aesthetically offensive.

"Now I know what you're thinking: 'I'm only endorsing JOHN HAM because Jon Hamm is my name.' Well, you're wrong. You're dead wrong. First of all, my last name has two 'M's' and second of all, my first name doesn't have an 'H.' Feel like a dummy yet? Because you should."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:22 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


LOL.
posted by torticat at 6:27 AM on May 14, 2013


This week's New Yorker Out Loud podcast is dedicated to Emily Nussbaum's piece on Mad Men.
posted by readery at 7:32 AM on May 14, 2013


Re the Dick Whitman hackery -- it has nothing to do with this new era of Don uglyface, as far as I'm concerned.

As Dick, he does this thing with his forehead and his shoulders, and he always does it the same way every time. Like "I'm Dick now so I'm going to scrunch up my brow all weird OK".

I don't think it's hack-ish to use any kind of gestures or mannerisms at all to evoke character. Just the particular way Jon Hamm does it as Dick. Because he always goes back to the same well. It's like if when he was Dick he was always wearing the same hat or something.
posted by Sara C. at 7:51 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, it was interesting when someone upthread pointed out how outdated the dress Don sends Sylvia from Saks is. It looked so timeless and pretty on, but that's true, it's definitely not timely in any way. I can't imagine Megan wearing that, or any of the other younger characters on the show.

All of Sylvia's clothes look like they were from the early sixties, so Don picked out a dress that was very much her style and yes, I'll acknowledge the whole "whore red" thing, but it was also very much her colour. Sylvia certainly seemed to like it. It was also a perfect fit. Don Draper could shop for me any day. Take away my book, not so much.
posted by orange swan at 8:24 AM on May 14, 2013


As Dick, he does this thing with his forehead and his shoulders,

Hm. We might not be talking about the same thing. You can see the transformation I'm talking about at the end of Sunday's episode when he's talking with Sylvia. She says, "I think it's time to go home," and he says, "Not yet."
-"I think this is over."
-"It's over when I say it's over."
That's Don Draper as we're used to him, commanding and in control (he thinks). Over the next minute in that scene his face alters, so by the time he's begging ("Please"), he looks almost like a different person. He's still that person (I think of it as DW) later in the elevator.

Sara C, can you suggest a scene that illustrates your understanding of Hamm portraying Dick Whitman?
posted by torticat at 9:00 AM on May 14, 2013


Again, I'm not talking about actors' use of facial expression, gesture, or mannerism in general.

I didn't see anything in this week's episode that reminded me of the Patented Dick Whitman Forehead Scrunch, at all.

I don't really know what you're asking, or where we're going with this. I could look to previous episodes for a specific moment that he does what I'm talking about, but it's a work day and I don't have time to go to Netflix and watch whole episodes of the show to pick out a good scene for you.

The first time I noticed it is in the first season episode where we flash back to The Big Switch itself.
posted by Sara C. at 9:30 AM on May 14, 2013


The scenes in the hotel bedroom between Sylvia and Don were painful to watch, something that had never happened to me while watching a Mad Men episode. I kept thinking at any moment he could lose it and get overtly abusive. And something tells me this might be the direction this is going.

I never would've thought Don would be the kind of guy infamous for losing control and abusing women. But he did shove and shake Betty back then when he found out about Henry (and he has been kind-of-abusive towards Megan more than once, except she has mostly argued or fought back), and after this episode with Sylvia I can totally picture him going to jail for murdering one of his lovers. For talking back.

As to Don knowing how to pick clothes for Sylvia, well he did use to be a coats salesman...

Joan and Bob - I think it's too early to tell if Bob's just Trying Hard to Be a Nice Guy or has ulterior motives. But I think this is the happiest we've seen Joan in a long time! If he was just trying to befriend Important People who might protect him, I wouldn't even call that "ulterior motives", it's perfectly reasonable in a scenario like this.

And for what it's worth, to me, his helping Joan came across as pretty genuine. Faking niceness to this degree would only be justified if he had some SERIOUS plans for world domination. Which would make him pretty interesting.
posted by ipsative at 10:29 AM on May 14, 2013


I agree, Sara C. The rheumy look I was referring to wasn't the "Dick Whitman face" as much as the "Don Draper's soul and heart has been rode hard and hung up wet" look of utter defeat, loneliness, and existential angst.

I do notice how his face looks different when he's being his "real" self. It's kind of a more relaxed, "What, me worry?" type of look that occasionally steals over his face when he's at ease. In bed smoking cigarettes with Sylvia. The occasional flit when something amuses him at the office.
posted by mynameisluka at 10:30 AM on May 14, 2013


You mean his "I love puppies" face?

I know the one you mean, mynameisluka. He makes that face whenever he's trying hard not to cry. It's the same face he makes when Peggy quits (and, in fact, he kisses her hand, too, just like Sylvia's).

Disagree that Sylvia is very much like Rachel Menken at all. For one thing, Rachel Menken loved him.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:39 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I agree that the hotel room scenes were hard to watch. What was even harder for me was that last scene where Megan is muted out.

It's funny, in the first few seasons I felt like, in contrast to the other men around him, Don had a basic respect for women and had the ability to see them as people, maybe even equals. With each proceeding season I feel less and less like that's the case. Which is pretty interesting when you contrast it with the fact that women are getting more and more power in Don's world.

When "respecting women" meant not just sleeping with your secretary because you can, Don was looking great! When "respecting women" means treating your wife like a human, Don is looking barely removed from a misogynist serial killer ("Hooors, wimmin is all hoors, I tell ya...").
posted by Sara C. at 11:05 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]


Also, yeah, there was an openness and generosity to Rachel that I don't think is present with Sylvia. Which might be what makes it so hard to like her or care about this storyline? If it was Rachel and her husband doctor-whats-his-name living downstairs, and Don and Rachel had resumed their affair*, I don't think Rachel would behave the way Sylvia does toward Megan. She probably WOULD have been the sympathetic "I feel ambiguous about motherhood vs. career" shoulder Megan wanted to cry on. For one thing.

*OMG would that not have been AMAZING? I actually think that would have been a great development for the season and a lot more interesting than the Sylvia thing. And it also solves this problem the series has of Don's revolving door of brunette mistresses.
posted by Sara C. at 11:09 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think generosity is a good way of putting it, even though I like Sylvia in her refusal to be pigeonholed the way the men in her life want her to be. It's like she's leveraging her power as a wife perfectly, in every case. Her power is a very traditional female sort of power. I just find that compelling, I guess--in a world where women are exploring other types of power, that this one has embraced older ones, and so well, and successfully. Maybe not happily, but . . . there are very few women on the show who have done that.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sara C.: "It's funny, in the first few seasons I felt like, in contrast to the other men around him, Don had a basic respect for women and had the ability to see them as people, maybe even equals. With each proceeding season I feel less and less like that's the case. Which is pretty interesting when you contrast it with the fact that women are getting more and more power in Don's world. "

I think this is of a piece with the "Don is not getting the changes in the advertising world" theme. Don was a really forward thinking guy for March 1960. But he hasn't changed at all. Eight years later, the world has moved on, he's still in the same place, and is increasingly looking like a fossil.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:53 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


Something just occurred to me.

So Don and Sylvia are "over".

But... Sylvia still lives in the building.

And even if their relationship is over, I don't know that all the feelings between them are resolved in a neat way.

It also sounds like Sylvia and Rosen's marriage isn't going so well.

Now what?

In a lot of ways, this is very much a shitting where you eat situation. It also seems like over the years Don has really slid into things like this more and more. In season 1 he had Midge, someone who didn't know anyone he knew, and who nobody could ever find out about. Also Rachel, where she was a work connection, but nobody needed to know that they were having an affair. In season 2 we get Bobbie, another work connection, but one that starts to get a little messy since said work connection also involves her husband. In season 3, he sleeps with his kid's teacher, which is potentially way too messy for Don (and I think he even points out the problems with this arrangement). In season 4, he starts to do this much more often, and with less awareness of the pitfalls, with both Allison and Faye. Now suddenly he's fucking a neighbor. A neighbor who is friends with his wife. The chickens don't have to go very far to roost.
posted by Sara C. at 12:14 PM on May 14, 2013


I think it's too early to tell if Bob's just Trying Hard to Be a Nice Guy or has ulterior motives.

God, I really would love a Bob reveal on the order of Peggy, You're Not Only Pregnant, You're Going Into Labor, but it's so weird to me to think that taking someone obviously in pain the the hospital is a morally compromisable action.

And while I was sort of curious about Sylvia, I'm kind of relieved she's going since she all but shunted Megan aside--and I know I'm in the minority, but I really want to see more Megan. Or even Betty. Or, honestly, when the hell is Sally coming back? (And here's a very Mad Men question: what's the longest span of episodes that a billed cast member has gone without an appearance?)
posted by psoas at 12:15 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think it's possible that Sylvia and Artie are going to move to Minnesota where he went to interview for the job.

But yeah, this is the messiest one yet.
posted by sweetkid at 12:15 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Or, honestly, when the hell is Sally coming back?

She was in the previews for next week, but who knows how much screen time she'll have.
posted by COBRA! at 12:21 PM on May 14, 2013


Aha. Amazon Instant doesn't show the previews. (Or the Oreo commercial, +/-.)
posted by psoas at 1:38 PM on May 14, 2013


I don't really know what you're asking, or where we're going with this. I could look to previous episodes for a specific moment that he does what I'm talking about, but it's a work day and I don't have time to go to Netflix and watch whole episodes of the show to pick out a good scene for you.

Yikes! Apologies for asking a question on metafilter in the middle of a work day! Where I was "going with this" was I was curious to see what you were talking about because I find it interesting. I thought you might be able to, you know, call a scene to mind is all.

I've seen what you said (or something similar) noted elsewhere. There is a comment on Sepinwall's post just on this last episode that says:
"I was enthralled by Jon Hamm's ability to conjure up glazed-eyed-frightened-boy Dickie - like - the first few thousand times I saw it. Now it just looks like a parlor trick."

I'm interested in these observations and what different viewers are referring to, so I asked. As Ted didn't say, "there are no wrong answers."
posted by torticat at 1:58 PM on May 14, 2013


via the AV Club thread: You can hear one of the secretaries say "Sterling Cooper Draper Cutler Gleason Chaugh" just after Peggy is shown to Harry's old office.

I still hope that was transitional and they'll find something more streamlined. I don't wanna have to type out SCDCGC every time.
posted by crossoverman at 2:20 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Plus it writes Lane out of history. Come on, they didn't change McKenzie, Brackman, Chaney and Kuzak when that guy died.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:31 PM on May 14, 2013


torticat, I'm home sick today and have some thoughts on Dick/Don and Jon's acting choices. I also think Jon Hamm's acting is sort of one-note when he's playing Dick (there are many examples: All the Korea scenes where Dick is interacting with the real Draper; the scene where Anna Draper confronts Don when he is still working at the car dealership; the scenes where Don first meets Roger and angles for the copywriter job; the scene where Don goes to visit Anna to tell her about Betty and several more I might not be thinking of. ) Whenever Jon Hamm is playing either Dick or the very early years of Don Draper, he does this scrunchy brow/awkward smile gangly armed schtick that I think is meant to read "young," "naive" or at least meant to stand out pretty strongly from the suave Don Draper we know in our present day. Infinitely less self assured. But like Sepinwall I'm not really impressed by it - I don't think I was ever "enthralled" in the first place. I think my attitude is usually "the heck is this?" I think JH is a tremendously gifted actor, it's just a blunder (to me) in either his choices or the direction of those scenes or whatever Matt Weiner is going for. I don't know. I feel similarly when Elizabeth Moss is doing a pitch as Peggy. She gets this glaze over her face and sort of speaks in a monotone, like she's reading off cue cards. It just doesn't work for me.

However, I don't agree that whenever Don Draper, the character, reverts back to Dick Whitman when he's feeling happy or real. I don't think the acting choices reflect that, to be sure, because I don't see gangly, eyebrow-jumpy Dick Whitman in those scenes. I don't think the show is trying to say that Don becomes Dick when he's happy or relaxed. He talks about his "real self" sometimes, like with Megan, but I don't think he means Dick Whitman. I think he's still trying to figure out what that is.
posted by sweetkid at 2:47 PM on May 14, 2013


Not to distract from your main point, sweetkid, but I agree that there are some strange decisions in Peggy's pitching style, and they've always bothered me. I imagine myself in those rooms being off-put by her flat, dispassionate tone, with its sense of recitation and its odd placating undertone. I can think of plenty of ways to explain it -- Peggy doesn't have a theatrical streak like Don or Ted; she's learned that a woman expressing a passionate opinion will read in the wrong way to some clients, even if that opinion is positive; she tends not to respect clients personally, and can't pretend that she does, even though she's fascinated by the challenges of their assignments. (I feel like Peggy will have to learn a whole new social language if she's going to rise to Don or Ted's status within the firm.)

So it makes sense, but nobody mentions it in-universe, and this is in a world where creative work gets critiqued constantly (and even Ted, who is full of praise for Peggy, doesn't hesitate to critique her leadership style when she needs it).
posted by thesmallmachine at 3:20 PM on May 14, 2013


Yeah, actually in present day advertising at least, the pitch really is sort of read out in a monotone, while the client is looking at a big presentation that includes TV, radio, digital banners, print, web stuff, etc and mostly looking to make sure the message connects over all those channels.

This is partially because creatives aren't actors, so even if they wrote the script they're not going to put the right picture in the client's mind of how that's going to work, and also because people are going a hundred miles a day in agency life and don't have time to build a speech of emotional depth about ketchup and cough drops. So in that sense Elizabeth Moss' drone is kind of apt.

BUT this is different, it's an actor giving a monologue on a TV show, not someone trying to sell in a tv script to a client in the middle of a workday, and in that sense Moss' delivery is off to me. I agree Peggy isn't as theatrical as Don by nature, but I do think that she is supposed to be delivering emotionally in those scenes and she's just kinda not.
posted by sweetkid at 3:40 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, she has this, "Webster's defines the word "ketchup" as..." style that I find sort of grating. It works for her character, who is a little humorless and wonkish isn't a show(wom)an at all. But it's not really fun to watch.
posted by Sara C. at 3:44 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


In conclusion, Peggy is a land of contrast.
posted by sweetkid at 3:45 PM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]


Yeah, she has this, "Webster's defines the word "ketchup" as..." style that I find sort of grating.

Yet it provides kind of an effective shock when she's doing the ketchup pitch and she says something along the lines of "Doesn't it make you angry that these catsup pretenders are trying to piggyback on Heinz? It makes me angry." That kind of emotion about that kind of product is ludicrous on its face, but she really sells it because it's so unexpected.
posted by psoas at 3:58 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Whenever Jon Hamm is playing either Dick or the very early years of Don Draper, he does this scrunchy brow/awkward smile gangly armed schtick that I think is meant to read "young," "naive"

Ah okay. I know what you're describing here. But yeah, I don't think we're all really talking about the same thing(s). I wasn't looking for examples of when Jon Hamm is explicitly playing Dick Whitman (or early Don), but rather the times current Don lets the facade fall and we see Dick Whitman/his "real self"/whatever you want to call it.

The commenter on Sepinwall (and I should clarify it was a reader comment, not Alan's opinion) said "glazed-eyed-frightened-boy Dickie," and called it a parlor trick, and I wrongly assumed that was the same thing Sara C had been talking about with the hacky acting.

I do think the Sepinwall reader is describing the same rheumy-eyes, trying-not-to-cry thing that mynameisluka and PhoBWanKenobi mentioned. But maybe no one else here associates that with "Dickie." I kinda do.
posted by torticat at 8:35 PM on May 14, 2013


I agree Peggy isn't as theatrical as Don by nature,

"Just try it already! Just TASTE IT!"

but I do think that she is supposed to be delivering emotionally in those scenes and she's just kinda not.

Yeah, I agree, and it undercut the impact a little when Don was eavesdropping on her and she was supposed to be stealing his tricks.
posted by torticat at 8:40 PM on May 14, 2013


The main tell is that Dick's eyebrows are about half an inch higher than Don's.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:39 AM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]




Weird, Whelk, I was going to post that exact bit from Mad Style when I had time. I disagree with it though. I'm not sure this was set up to mimic Don's situation. I think Pete lied to his mom to both protect her and to keep her from getting in more scrapes that were inconveniencing him. So sure, it was selfish but he was also trying to help her.

Don's thing was seedy enough in its own right. I don't think it needed a "seedier" mirror in Pete.
posted by sweetkid at 9:37 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


THANK GOD T&Lo finally got back to the business of actually talking about the actual clothes on the show and not just "here is some green and here is some blue OBVIOUSLY THIS IS ABOUT SOMETHING".
posted by Sara C. at 10:16 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


yea but they also spent a lot of time on LOOK BLUE AND YELLOW
posted by sweetkid at 10:17 AM on May 15, 2013


Yeah, if you want to hold up the two storylines as mirrors of each other, really it's Don's which is seedier and Pete's which is, in a way, kinder.

Is Pete harsher with his mother? Yes. Is she kept in his apartment somewhat against her will? I suppose. But he's trying to juggle caring for her (which she actually NEEDS, dementia is not a joke) with doing his job. Meanwhile Don is trying to focus on erasing the humanity of his mistress (which she rebels against) despite the demands that he actually show up and do his job.
posted by Sara C. at 10:19 AM on May 15, 2013 [8 favorites]


I think that is a really good contrast between the two situations, Sara C. Perfectly said.
posted by sweetkid at 10:23 AM on May 15, 2013


I'm buying the blue and yellow thing. Especially since as far as I can tell they're not just spitballing "these are two colors that exist and thus SYMBOLISM", they're pointing out oppositions and relationships in the scenes via the costumes. Which is what they're supposed to be doing.

My assumption with the blue and green this whole season has just been that it's a ubiquitous color combination that was everywhere around that time. It's like if someone tried to point out the SYMBOLISM in mint and coral color combinations right now.

Blue and green don't seem to have any particular significance on the show. The blue and yellow in this particular episode obviously are being done on purpose. Maybe not to signify anything in particular, but definitely to play up the chaos and opposition at SCDPCGC (ugh), and I can also see their point about Sylvia and Dorothy being dressed similarly. Despite my disagreement about their characterization of the Dorothy scenes.
posted by Sara C. at 10:24 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


I also think the Pete/Dorothy scenes were perfectly acted. The way VK says, "It's Saint Patrick's Day" is so sad and funny and desperate all at once.

I don't think Don/Sylvia and Pete/Dorothy are shot all that similarly though? Don/Sylvia looks lamplit while Pete/Dorothy looks like natural light.
posted by sweetkid at 10:27 AM on May 15, 2013


No, they're not shot similarly at all.

Tom & Lorenzo might know about clothes, but they know nothing about TV/film conventions like what it means for two scenes to be "shot similarly" or for something to be "on the nose". I've decided to somewhat overlook this as long as they don't get too cocky about knowing what they're talking about.
posted by Sara C. at 10:30 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


For the record, the bar in Hawaii and the bar in Detroit were "shot similarly".
posted by Sara C. at 10:31 AM on May 15, 2013


yes but it annoys me when people are wrong on the internet.

They were right about the oldiness of Sylvia's dress. And the Megan/Peggy color connection was interesting to think about. I can't wait to see more of what the consequences of Megan going on mute will be.
posted by sweetkid at 10:35 AM on May 15, 2013


Sara C. I think this is the second time, in our Mad Men discussions that you've referenced a rather specific meaning to "on the nose" as used within the context of TV/film (instead of general parlance). I generally take the phrase to mean "lacking in subtlety," but I'm not in the industry. I get the sense that, in the context that you're applying, it means something like that but with an added (or more precise) shade of meaning. Is that correct? If so, what is the additional meaning in this context?

[apologies if I'm misreading you here; I'm genuinely curious about this]
posted by .kobayashi. at 10:41 AM on May 15, 2013


I wonder if Dorothy and Sylvia's yellow floral dresses were shoutouts to "The Yellow Wallpaper."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:45 AM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


That's basically the gist of it, except that Tom & Lorenzo accuse wildly NOT on the nose things of being on the nose all the time. Basically any time anybody refers to anything thematic in dialogue, they are all ON THE NOSE!!11!1!!!!! when it's actually perfectly normal to have dialogue express theme. It's also almost never actually on the nose dialogue that they're pointing out.

On the nose dialogue would be something like

DON: I just feel so out of control lately.

SYLVIA: Me too. Let's just stay in this hotel room forever, OK?

DON: It's almost as if the events of 1968 are moving so fast that everybody feels out of sorts.

SYLVIA: I agree. By the way, feeling ashamed of our extramarital affair really turns me on.

DON: Want to give me a foot massage, then?

Not to mention, of course, that Mad Men is so fucking cryptic all the time that I think it's outrageous to take anything non-cryptic that anybody says as "on the nose". Mad Men is the least "on the nose" show on TV.
posted by Sara C. at 10:55 AM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]


I wonder if Dorothy and Sylvia's yellow floral dresses were shoutouts to "The Yellow Wallpaper."

Don't forget the yellow floral wallpaper in the hotel bathroom.
posted by purpleclover at 10:56 AM on May 15, 2013


Blue and green don't seem to have any particular significance on the show. The blue and yellow in this particular episode obviously are being done on purpose. Maybe not to signify anything in particular, but definitely to play up the chaos and opposition at SCDPCGC (ugh), and I can also see their point about Sylvia and Dorothy being dressed similarly.

Yea I agree that the blue and yellow was on purpose, probably also blue and green. I just don't think either color combination means much in a SYMBOLISM way, like blue/green = adultery. In the big partner/secretary meeting the blue/yellow seemed more of a way to tie all the characters together, rather than having them separated into the two separate former agencies.
posted by sweetkid at 10:56 AM on May 15, 2013


I don't think it's anything as simple as "The Blue Team" and "The Yellow Team". It's just used to create opposition.

In all the major scenes between two people (taking Sylvia's red dress out of the equation), one person is wearing blue and one person is wearing yellow*. In all the major scenes where there's a group, there's a mix of blue and yellow. As far as I can tell, the only scene where the characters "match" is the scene between Don and Peggy where she tells him "Move Forward".

*Even in the very first scene of Peggy and Ted, who get along and are definitely "on the same team", he's in yellow and she's in blue. So I don't think it's necessarily about conflict at all. It just adds a chaotic tone to the whole episode.
posted by Sara C. at 11:00 AM on May 15, 2013


FWIW I'm so much more interested in the use of costume to evoke a certain feeling than I am of the idea of bald symbolism between colors and specific story points.
posted by Sara C. at 11:02 AM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


I can't figure out why they have high school kids read The Yellow Wallpaper. Having just read it again for the first time in 20 years, I'm sort of horrified. The show has to be referencing it, though.
posted by purpleclover at 11:13 AM on May 15, 2013


Word, Sara C. I don't think if I've just gotten tired of T&Lo's trick or if their analysis is so much less astute this season, trying to ferret out precise meanings from every color combo.

Mostly I think yellows, blues and greens were very much of the time.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:13 AM on May 15, 2013


Also I'm honestly a bit disappointed in what I can't help but see as them missing a few things. The significance of Ted's sunglasses when aviators had previously been a motif used in scenes when Don is commanding his surroundings. Sally in a bright column of jewel-tone blue in the Christmas scene, which was echoed in a paler blue on Henry (later in the season, Henry's close relationship with the kids becoming explicit with Bobby's fears about him). Instead we're getting the more obvious harping on the red=whores thing (I knew we'd see those same screenshots with this episode).
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:20 AM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]


Sara C.: Thanks for the clarification. It sounds as if, in the context of evaluating TV scripts, "on the nose" isn't simply about a relative lack of subtlety compared to the whole of a script (or of a very subtle show's complete run). Rather it's a term reserved for the overt telegraphing -- if not shouting -- of literal meaning. A phrase, concordance, or gesture that seems relatively clumsier in its expression of a larger theme than does the rest of a single script isn't necessarily "on the nose." Rather, that expression is reserved for the banally transparent. Is that right?

If that's so, I suspect that T&Lo are using it in the first sense (i.e. comparatively obvious when evaluated by Mad Men's own standards) instead of this more universally-portable second sense.
posted by .kobayashi. at 11:38 AM on May 15, 2013


Or, in other words, in the last thread I suggested that the use of Planet of the Apes seemed a bit clumsy & "on the nose" to me. I'd defend that claim, meant in the first of the senses described above. I'd back off from that claim, were we to apply the second standard.
posted by .kobayashi. at 11:41 AM on May 15, 2013


I don't think it's quite that dramatic, .kobayashi. I just *don't* think something like the use of Planet Of The Apes is actually on the nose.

Again, you can refer to theme without being on the nose.

I also don't think it's so much something that should be evaluated in comparison to however cryptic a show usually is. We NEED to be let in sometimes, especially on issues of theme. Otherwise there's no there there.

I also kind of question the throwing around of that term about a show that is as unbelievably subtle and nuanced as Mad Men is. So if the audience is EVER thrown a bone about anything at all, then it's "on the nose"? Because, like, we're picking up what they're putting down?

We're meant to pick up what they're putting down. That's the whole point of narrative.

I generally think that people who needle out certain aspects of any given Mad Men episode as "on the nose" are being obnoxious. It's the "I liked that band before it was cool" of TV viewership.
posted by Sara C. at 11:46 AM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also I'm honestly a bit disappointed in what I can't help but see as them missing a few things. The significance of Ted's sunglasses when aviators had previously been a motif used in scenes when Don is commanding his surroundings. Sally in a bright column of jewel-tone blue in the Christmas scene, which was echoed in a paler blue on Henry (later in the season, Henry's close relationship with the kids becoming explicit with Bobby's fears about him). Instead we're getting the more obvious harping on the red=whores thing (I knew we'd see those same screenshots with this episode).

Well, and these correspondences you note are so much more interesting because the color/style choices encourage you to frame one scene or situation in terms of another, which affords a lot more interpretive subtlety than the "red=whores" bit. Also, from an aesthetic standpoint, I think meanings that arise from the juxtaposition of elements within the story are a lot more compelling than meanings that are just imported wholesale from some external source.
posted by invitapriore at 11:49 AM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]


Sara C.: It's a fair point that the show needs some standard of accessibility, and one ought not dismiss any point of entry as "on the nose." I also agree that Mad Men is significantly less direct than any show on television. That is clearly evidenced by the reviewers who dissect and interpret its phrasings with dedication normally reserved for Talmudic scholars.

I do think that the choice of Planet of the Apes telegraphs the theme a little more directly than the show does when it is at its best. At the same time, I'm willing to concede that its interesting that the film had only just been generally released in the USA on 3 April 1968, and is therefore a defensible choice (even if it was first released in NYC a couple months earlier).

Its possible I'm drawing the line on the other side of Planet of the Apes because I find that movie itself to be so objectionably "on the nose" by any standard. I mean: the bit where Heston verbalizes his realization that he's still on Earth? When we can clearly see the remains of the Statue of Liberty in the background? Really? So it may well be my lingering perceptions of that film coloring my interpretation here.

Generally, though, I do agree with what you're suggesting. Thanks again for the clarification.
posted by .kobayashi. at 12:22 PM on May 15, 2013


By the way, what's up with Ginsberg's shirt? Is it just me or is it twenty zillion sizes too big? Is he wearing his father's clothes? Stan's? One would assume he makes good money -- his predecessors in 1960 wore suits. Can he not go out and buy a shirt that fits?
posted by Sara C. at 12:27 PM on May 15, 2013


T&Lo used to talk a lot about doing Mad Style character studies for the men, and I think they're desperately needed. Especially after the aesthetic transformation of the last few years.

I'd especially love to see a posts on Harry and Pete as well as something contrasting the look of a copywriter in 1960 with a copywriter in 1968.
posted by Sara C. at 12:29 PM on May 15, 2013


By the way, what's up with Ginsberg's shirt? Is it just me or is it twenty zillion sizes too big? Is he wearing his father's clothes? Stan's?

Isn't he always wearing big clothes?
posted by sweetkid at 12:36 PM on May 15, 2013


I've never really noticed. There was a still in the T&Lo post that caused my to finally see it.
posted by Sara C. at 12:46 PM on May 15, 2013


I'm so glad they mentioned Peggy's AGGRESSIVE blue suit. It's so completely detached from anything she has ever worn, all militaristic and pointy and clasps-y!
posted by The Whelk at 1:02 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


Peggy's "Move Forward" in that scene was so slogany. I keep thinking about it.

Don often uses single things people say as catalysts for action - I wonder if this will be one of those times.

Then again it's Don.
posted by sweetkid at 1:04 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Once in a while, T&L still notice things that are really impressive:

"Just remember: the last time these two were in a room together and one of them told the other to “Move forward,” it was when Peggy was in the Psych Ward. MASSIVE change in the dynamic."

I did NOT remember that. This is why I need to rewatch the whole series. Amazing.
posted by crossoverman at 1:47 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don Draper: What's wrong with you?
Peggy Olson: I don't know.
Don Draper: What do they want you to do?
Peggy Olson: I don't know.
Don Draper: Yes you do. Do it. Do whatever they say. [leans in and whispers] Peggy, listen to me, get out of here and move forward. This never happened. It will shock you how much it never happened.


Yeah, he does say move forward to Peggy. Also, he says it to Adam, something like "I have a life, and it only moves in one direction--forward."

Such an interesting choice of a symbolic word on a show that all takes place in the past.
posted by sweetkid at 1:58 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Okay, peeps, if, like me, you hadn't read The Yellow Wallpaper since you were a kid, it's worth reading to compare with this episode. (It was written in 1893 and is out of copyright.)
- Sylvia is a retro housewife, married to a physician, who seems to submit to being imprisoned in a single room, like the Yellow Wallpaper narrator. YW narrator is also married to a physician, who dictates her "treatment."
- Sylvia's out-of-style dress looks like yellow wallpaper. (Uh, subtle, dudes.)
- Don takes her novel. The YW narrator is forbidden from writing or reading.
- Sylvia is separated from her son, Mitchell. The YW narrator has had a baby, but she's not permitted to care for him (it's portrayed in the story that she doesn't have to because she has help.)
- Charlotte Perkins Gilman wrote the story as a rebuttal to the care she got for postpartum psychosis from a Dr. S. Weir Mitchell.
- Linda Cardellini's character on Freaks and Geeks was named Lindsay Weir. (Okay, that's just a maybe meaningless noncoincidence.)
- However, the YW character never escapes her room-prison, instead descending into madness. Sylvia gets dressed and crisply declares that it's all over.

Is this Weiner responding to observations that the 1960s were chock full of sexism with a, "Well, you think it's bad now, but check out 75 years ago?" Or is he suggesting that Sylvia is still trapped and powerless, but in a different way? (Forbidden from helping Mitchell, unable to meaningfully contribute to the discussion of where they live, etc.)
posted by purpleclover at 2:02 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]


It's so funny, because I remember the next bit - This never happened. It will shock you how much it never happened. - because that is key to Don's character. But I'm glad to have been reminded of "Move forward".
posted by crossoverman at 2:03 PM on May 15, 2013



It's so funny, because I remember the next bit - This never happened. It will shock you how much it never happened. - because that is key to Don's character. But I'm glad to have been reminded of "Move forward".


Yeah, I totally agree with this. The "it will shock you" bit really stuck with me. Definitely interesting that Peggy's move forward was a callback to that one.

Then again, there's something that's so much more powerful to the way she says it in isolation in last week's scene, and then just turns on her heel and leaves.
posted by sweetkid at 2:10 PM on May 15, 2013


Which is what makes the power dynamic shift so great - it is isolated. So much said with so few words. Peggy FTW!
posted by crossoverman at 2:13 PM on May 15, 2013


Did I watch something else?? This episode was so utterly ridiculous. Hamm-fisted as this shitty-ass pun. It didn't even seem like they were playing their own characters. It was so on-the-nose at times I felt like they should have been holding their scripts with metacommentary subtitles. And the dominance bedroom scenes...I thought DonJohn was going to bust up laughing at any second.

Examples of the over-the-top exposition:
I think the epitome of this was Joan's line to her mother, "It was just a cyst on my ovary." Her mother already knew! But you, dear watcher...
Also from that scene, "I wasn't planning on dropping in. [but I did anyway] The hospital wouldn't tell me anything because I'm not immediate family" [hint and wink wink, yes?]
The repeated setup of Pete's mother as unreliable narrator, suffering from dementia and his continual gaslighting of her. Of course she'd be all "Kennedy has been shot!" and Pete would be all "That happened years ago." And we'd be all, "oooohhh, I see what you did there."
"You can relax now, we're levelled off" [throws on aviator shades]
American Psycho-style show-down, but instead of business cards it's musical chairs and hey, who's got a surprise airplane?
Don and Sylvia in the elevator...Sylvia looking down, ashamed; Don looking up, waiting. Close-up on Sylvia; close-up on Don. (really, that scene should have had football style callouts with arrows and signs pointing out the directions to Heaven and Hell)
Sylvia's whole stupid dream.

I could go on. Basically, I didn't buy any of it. It was farcical and I couldn't suspend my disbelief to that way off place.

I've read the comments here and seen some reviews. I realize I'm alone on this, and that's ok. I hope I'm not ruining things for anyone else though...my apologies if so. I just couldn't not say anything. Because, damn.
posted by iamkimiam at 4:03 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


My reaction was: 2/3 good, 1/3 Don & Sylvia.
posted by Chrysostom at 4:49 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


I hope I'm not ruining things for anyone else though

Not really, no.
posted by sweetkid at 5:25 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


I hope I'm not ruining things for anyone else

Well, certainly not retroactively. The rest of us seemed to enjoy it at the time and during these discussions. I hope we're not ruining it for you by enjoying the episode and discussing it as if we enjoyed the episode.
posted by crossoverman at 5:46 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]


I dunno, isn't that mix of over-the-top and subtle-downplayed just one of Mad Men's things?
posted by box at 7:08 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


Ted Chaough fanfic. because, you know, internet.
posted by mwhybark at 10:08 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


The repeated setup of Pete's mother as unreliable narrator, suffering from dementia and his continual gaslighting of her. Of course she'd be all "Kennedy has been shot!" and Pete would be all "That happened years ago." And we'd be all, "oooohhh, I see what you did there."

Yeah, this. Her whole dementia seemed like it was just for that one exchange. Will we ever see her again, I wonder?
posted by Sys Rq at 10:26 PM on May 15, 2013


Sys Rq: "Yeah, this. Her whole dementia seemed like it was just for that one exchange. Will we ever see her again, I wonder?"

I disagree. I think she was there primarily to contribute to one of the main themes of the episode (well, the show, really), that change is painful but inevitable and you can't hang onto the past.

Move forward. Everyone who fails to do so is doomed.
posted by Superplin at 10:34 PM on May 15, 2013


change is painful but inevitable and you can't hang onto the past

And yet, here is everyone, crashing right into their past.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:37 PM on May 15, 2013


Will we ever see her again, I wonder?

It's pretty rare for Mad Men to drop a story like that.
posted by crossoverman at 11:06 PM on May 15, 2013


Sys Rq: "change is painful but inevitable and you can't hang onto the past

And yet, here is everyone, crashing right into their past.
"

They all have to confront their past, yes. Some are handling it better than others.
Take Roger, for example. Now there's a guy who knows how to savor a second chance.
posted by Superplin at 11:17 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]


It didn't even seem like they were playing their own characters. It was so on-the-nose at times I felt like they should have been holding their scripts with metacommentary subtitles.

Oh, I see you've seen a Mad Men episode. Everything short of having the actors look into directly the camera and say "think about it" is fair game. I find that turning the channel before the wink wink GET IT ending music choice helps. (And avoids their weird "next time" preview clips. ("Jesus Christ it's hot outside." "No!" "This is great stuff!" "Gosh darnit!" "Oh hell." "Yes!!" "Where on Earth did I put my keys!?" "You say that but you don't mean it." "I'm hungry." "I think I like this place." etc.))

Actually I've been enjoying the show again, and I liked the last episode. Stuff I've missed is happening again. They actually seem to be in an ad company making pitches and working and whatnot. The cripplingly portentous delving of Don Draper's Soul is contained for now. Roger is witty. It's fun again, so I can tolerate the bad stuff.

I didn't even flinch when some character said to Megan wonderingly, "You're so good at everything."
posted by fleacircus at 3:00 AM on May 16, 2013


Bit of shameless self-promotion here, but I wrote a piece on how to knit "Mad Style" for today's post on my blog. Unsurprisingly, knitting your own Mad Men homage projects is a thing. This show permeates everything.
posted by orange swan at 5:39 AM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


Ted Chaough fanfic. because, you know, internet.

Now I really need to see Ted's Dick van Dyke impression.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:53 AM on May 16, 2013


Oh man, fleacircus, the cryptic scenes from the next Mad Men is the best part!
posted by Chrysostom at 6:05 AM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's pretty rare for Mad Men to drop a story like that.

Then where the fuck is GLEN?!
posted by mrgrimm at 9:18 AM on May 16, 2013


At boarding school.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:18 AM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


Instead we're getting the more obvious harping on the red=whores thing (I knew we'd see those same screenshots with this episode).

Well, perhaps that's because the show has been really overt about it this season.

Lots of angsting about how subtle or unsubtle the show is being in conveying it's themes. It's one thing to hold up a sign saying THIS IS WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON, but I don't think that's what's happening. Yes, there are clear prompts, but the big sign says THERE IS MORE GOING ON HERE. YOU SHOULD LOOK MORE CLOSELY. Viewers, including myself, sometimes need a way in.
posted by dry white toast at 9:35 AM on May 16, 2013


Then where the fuck is GLEN?!

I was just thinking that we haven't seen him since Sally got her period. But the obvious answer is A) Sally is mortally embarrassed about what happened the last time they saw each other, and B) we need more Sally first before we can have more Glen.
posted by dry white toast at 9:38 AM on May 16, 2013


THIS IS WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON, but I don't think that's what's happening.

I agree. I totally disagree with iamkimiam's description of the episode, of the actors almost laughing through scenes and the Kennedy thing being totally predictable. I mean, maybe I'm just super dense, but I found the Kennedy reveal super startling and dark, especially after weeks of the show mentioning him and the audience speculating about the reveal.

(I don't think I am super dense).
posted by sweetkid at 9:39 AM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]


Then where the fuck is GLEN?!>


I'm not a Glen fan, like at all, but I don't think this was a dropped storyline. He's at boarding school, the age difference between him and Sally is more apparent now, and also he's from Ossining and Sally doesn't live there anymore. It makes perfect sense that she and the show would move on from that relationship.
posted by sweetkid at 9:41 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Exactly, sweetkid. Given that Weiner has to reveal something every single viewer knows is coming, his options were limited to begin with. He pulled it off as well as he could have.
posted by dry white toast at 9:44 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, and even if the characters haven't necessarily moved on from that relationship, I think it's fine to put on the back burner.

I went to boarding school and had friends scattered all over the place who either didn't live in my hometown or didn't go to my school, and who I would go months without seeing. It being the 90s we kept in touch via AIM, but I'm sure that Sally and Glen are talking on the phone or exchanging postcards or whatever.

I'm a big fan, on any TV series, of the idea that there are all these relational interactions going on in the background that we don't need to check in with every week.
posted by Sara C. at 9:50 AM on May 16, 2013


I'm sure that Sally and Glen are talking on the phone or exchanging postcards or whatever.

They might be, but Sally's current too cool for school attitude (which I enjoy and think is spot on for her age and upper middle classness) might have her leaving awkward nerdy Glen in her past.

I would be OK with it either way, but I'm not thrilled with the idea of more Glen screen time.
posted by sweetkid at 9:53 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm not saying I had it all figured out...the Kennedy reveal especially (I certainly wasn't expecting that). It's more that when these plot points come up they are so darned contrived that it's completely obvious in afterthought. Someone much smarter than me would see it coming, and I can imagine that would be doubly disappointing. For me, just the once was enough.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:59 AM on May 16, 2013


I think she was there primarily to contribute to one of the main themes of the episode (well, the show, really), that change is painful but inevitable and you can't hang onto the past.

With her dementia being non-total, there was practically no difference in affect between when she was lucid (talking about seeing RFK's death on TV) and when not (talking about Pete's father). What I got from it was more difficult to articulate; there's a distinction between dominance/submissiveness (what's going on in the foreground of much of the episode) and assuredness/humility (which aren't opposites but are treated that way by a lot of people, and was sorting out how different characters deal with change).
posted by psoas at 10:06 AM on May 16, 2013


sweetkid: "(I don't think I am super dense)."

No one ever does.

(I don't think you are, either)
posted by Chrysostom at 10:11 AM on May 16, 2013


Thanks, and yes, I've heard of Dunning–Kruger effect, but my point is more that I think appreciation of a television show is subjective - even if iamkimiam thinks all the smart people could totally have seen every plot point coming.
posted by sweetkid at 10:41 AM on May 16, 2013


I think the parallel between the disorientation of her dementia, and the disorientation caused by the events of the time is very apt and very well done. I don't think you can over-sell how chaotic 1968 was. I'd venture that most of the millenials watching the show don't really grasp its significance. So in this case, I think it's totally appropriate to hit the viewer over the head with the metaphor. I'd almost hope (veinly, I realize) that the show prompts more people who weren't around to learn about everything that was going on that year.

I, for one, have been fascinated by the cultural and political shifts in the 60s, and 1968 in particular, especially since America is very much still feeling the reverberations from the events of that year (I was born in '77). I was excited to see how Mad Men would convey the impact of those events, and so far I have not been disappointed.
posted by dry white toast at 10:49 AM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


Uh, yes, everything I actually know about the '60s (and the Korean War, for that matter) I learned from Mad Men. (Why did history classes always basically end with WW2?)
posted by purpleclover at 10:53 AM on May 16, 2013


I, for one, have been fascinated by the cultural and political shifts in the 60s, and 1968 in particular, especially since America is very much still feeling the reverberations from the events of that year (I was born in '77

I was born in 1978, and it blows my mind that all this stuff happened only ten years before I was born. My parents came to the US from India in 1972 , only four years after this. I mean, by the time I learned about all the events of the sixties (I guess starting mid-80s in elementary school) it seemed a million miles away, yet it was more recent than the Challenger explosion is now.
posted by sweetkid at 10:56 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Why did history classes always basically end with WW2?

Mine didn't. Ours went up through the first Gulf War (but I was in high school in the mid 90s so that was the most current major stuff).

I remember writing about the civil rights movement for my AP test.
posted by sweetkid at 10:58 AM on May 16, 2013


Oh, a good school, then. We got "Hippies ... Rosa Parks ... It's May, you guys. Go outside."
posted by purpleclover at 10:59 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


I had teachers who somehow got away with teaching us The People's History of the United States as our primary text in conservative Northern Virginia.
posted by sweetkid at 11:01 AM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


As a kid in the 80's I definitely understood that the 60's were the defining time for my parents' generation, but I only got the stereotyped and sanitized parts: flower power, long wavy hair, the Beatles. The fact that America was almost coming apart at the seems at the same time didn't really become apparent until university (important caveat: I'm Canadian, so the nitty gritty of civil rights was less of a priority in our curriculum).
posted by dry white toast at 11:05 AM on May 16, 2013


Here's my take on the series' "Megan is good at everything" meme. I don't think it has anything to do with Weiner and company trying to impress us with Megan's talents. Instead, it's a reaction to Megan's persona, which is built on the need to appear universally competent, and which tends to bring out strong reactions in other women. She is always modest when praised (either sincerely, or because she harbors self-doubt, or because she gets social perks from it, or because she doesn't care about the achievements in question because she's always moving on to a new ambition), but she has everything invested in immediate success at whatever she tries, which is why she went to pieces last season when she was failing as an actress.

Both of the women who we've heard call Megan "good at everything" have complicated, somewhat backhanded reasons for doing so. Peggy had an immensely difficult relationship with Megan while both were working for SCDP -- wanting to like her because Don does, resenting that she's been promoted because she's Don's wife, caught up in power struggles with Don, and above all envious of Megan's ease at moving through the world -- of her apparently natural social intelligence and air of competence. Peggy is talented, but she's had to work enormously hard to reach the position that Megan reached easily -- both professionally and in terms of having a persona that people automatically like and respect. When she says that Megan's "good at everything" and "one of those girls," the phrases carry all of that admiration and resentment.

(Also, on one level of that conversation, she and Joan are using Megan to debate whether "those girls" even exist. Joan has something of that idealized aura herself, and knows what it's cost her, and so she doesn't believe in "those girls." But she does believe in "the kinds of girls Don marries": very young natural performers who Don will leave as soon as he realizes that they're people. Joan's dismissal of Megan has the same weight within the scene as Peggy's praise of her, which besides everything else was tempered with the desire to counter Joan's cynicism -- Don had called Peggy "cynical and petty" earlier in that episode.)

As for Sylvia, it's harder for me to parse out what Sylvia thinks. We don't have the benefit of years of development, like we do with Peggy. But she doesn't seem to think much of Megan, or much about her, except in terms of her role in the affair. To me, her "good at everything" remark was mostly interesting because it was a totally empty small-talk compliment that probably stung Megan at a time when her marriage is failing and she's getting an award for an ad (the Heinz "mothers and children through the ages" ad, if I'm not mistaken) that reminds her and Don of that marriage's high point. The moment emphasizes the hollowness of the whole sad evening.
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:09 AM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]


One more thing about Peggy: I think that, just as Megan's persona is built around being "good at everything," Peggy's is built on being "good." She values her self-image as a person who is optimistic and hardworking and un-cynical, which is why Don's remark about "the people [Megan] works with" being "cynical and petty" really hurt her (and was part of what drove her away from Don and towards Ted, who models a way of getting older and more successful without spiritually withering).

I see Peggy's development very much in those terms. On her first day she wants to become cynical and worldly, but when it starts to happen, she wants it less and less, and that's defined her ever since.

(Interestingly, both Peggy's early longing to be "worldly" and her later longing to be "good" are closely tied to the possibility of a workplace affair -- though her move on Don was kind of an abstract thing, "I'm an independent career girl and now I'm going to sleep with my handsome boss, yeah!" and her interest in Ted is more about Ted as an individual.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:33 AM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


most of the millenials watching the show don't really grasp its significance

I'm a huge 60's obsessive (see upthread or maybe the last thread about Abe's place in the New Left vs. being a writer at the Times), but one thing that hasn't hit home for me until this season of Mad Men is how this chaos would have resonated, emotionally.

Maybe it's from growing up in the time after this period and Watergate, but I find it hard to imagine a figure like MLK being assassinated and having major social events (like an awards dinner) completely break down, and the country breaking out in riots over it. Or RFK being assassinated and people openly weeping in front of the TV, unable to function normally.

I remember the day Gabrielle Giffords was shot, for instance. I went to a party that night like any Saturday night, and there was talk about it, but there was also drinking and debauchery and the usual party antics. There was no "we should all stay home because right wing gun nuts are going to be out in force", or even a "we shouldn't be partying at a time like this".

I get that, for MLK, this happened in a context where "race riots" were a constant possibility in a way that doesn't really happen anymore. And I get that RFK wasn't just a congress member from a random state, he was a frontrunner for the Democratic party nomination. But until this season of Mad Men I didn't so much understand what it felt like to live in 1968.
posted by Sara C. at 11:41 AM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


When she says that Megan's "good at everything" and "one of those girls," the phrases carry all of that admiration and resentment.

This type of discussion about Megan reminds me of the discussion in the media about why people hate Anne Hathaway. Maybe you've discussed Megan in this context before, and I apologize if you have! I think this was posted in MeFi some time ago, and back then it made me think of Megan as a type for other girls I know irl.

That bit in Dark Shadows (5x09) when Megan helps a friend rehearse her lines, and this friend (the readhead?) reacts to Megan's criticism of her acting with: "you're lucky, you have such a great apartment, great husband, you don't have to struggle like me". And Megan gets defensive, "I am [lucky]!" - to me it sounds like she is saying, don't even attempt to try to bring me down. If you're suffering, it has nothing to do with my luck. I'm helping you, etc.

It was an impressive moment for me, because she had such self-confidence even when rather unfairly criticized.

She is happy and determined, has such a strong sense of entitlement that she can tackle life with great elan. And this quality in contrast with Betty and her emotional baggage and insecurities made Megan seem like a pretty interesting foil for Don. One woman whose confidence he'll have trouble undermining. (But of course, it's season 6, here we are, and I'm not so sure he hasn't succeeded...).

I always wonder with these girls, are they like this because they've been pampered and coddled and nurtured in such a way that they felt they would never fail?* Because it seems like the type of high-functioning self-esteem I associate with good, nurturing parenting. Or it is just that they've never failed, because they get bailed out all the time, and can't really believe it could happen, the way little kids think they're immortal.

Because when Megan did seem to be failing as an actress, she couldn't deal with it and had to beg her husband to bail her out. Nobody bailed Peggy out. Yet there she is...

*In this context, Megan's parents make no sense to me. She should have been a LOT less confident with Marie as a mother. How did she manage to grow up so happy? Or maybe it was countered by the fact that she was a youngest child, that her older siblings may have done some of the raising, as is common in such large catholic famillies?

Sorry if this is rambly... hope it still makes sense.
posted by ipsative at 11:50 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


though her move on Don was kind of an abstract thing, "I'm an independent career girl and now I'm going to sleep with my handsome boss, yeah!"

I feel like I'm the only one who saw her "move" on Don happening because every single person she's interacted with on her first day of work has basically told her she was supposed to do that, or that she should expect there to be a sexual angle in the secretary/executive relationship, or even implied that Don's last secretary was let go for not fucking him.

I also think people's reaction to that moment in the pilot is an interesting contrast to the current Harry/Scarlett relationship, where folks are all OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE HAVING AN AFFAIR when they forget that a mere 8 years ago Peggy was basically told that fucking her boss would be part of the job description. My guess is that Harry and Scarlett's work relationship is much more like that old school "your secretary is your wife at the office" model than the Peggy and Don mentoring model.
posted by Sara C. at 11:50 AM on May 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


I find it hard to imagine a figure like MLK being assassinated and having major social events (like an awards dinner) completely break down, and the country breaking out in riots over it. Or RFK being assassinated and people openly weeping in front of the TV, unable to function normally.

The only thing I can remember from my lifetime (Which is only slightly longer than Sara C.'s) that affected people in any way close to this was 9/11. I remember not knowing what to do with myself and wandering over to MIT (I was in Boston at the time) to watch TV with the students.
posted by sweetkid at 11:54 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


I feel like I'm the only one who saw her "move" on Don happening because every single person she's interacted with on her first day of work has basically told her she was supposed to do that, or that she should expect there to be a sexual angle in the secretary/executive relationship

I haven't re-watched that episode in a long time, but that is how I remember parsing it.
posted by mikepop at 11:55 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


"Thanks, and yes, I've heard of Dunning–Kruger effect, but my point is more that I think appreciation of a television show is subjective - even if iamkimiam thinks all the smart people could totally have seen every plot point coming."

I agree with the sentiment about subjectivity. That second sentence is not what I said or think and is beside the point I was actually making. Unless I'm meant to read it as you kidding with me?
posted by iamkimiam at 11:57 AM on May 16, 2013


Doesn't she say she wants to be a copywriter as she's making moves on Don? I think that's why some people see it as her trying to advance her career. I'm kind of split because I never really get Megan's motives but I think it's accurate to say she was just doing what she thought was her job.
posted by sweetkid at 11:58 AM on May 16, 2013


9/11. I remember not knowing what to do with myself and wandering over to MIT (I was in Boston at the time) to watch TV with the students.

Yeah, I think this is a big reason it has been hard for me to contextualize the emotions involved in the late 60's upheaval.

I mean, 9/11 was A HUGE THING. Thousands of people died across multiple locations. It was an attack on our country by a hostile outside force, which was pretty much unimaginable in the context of the late 90s. I remember for weeks not feeling secure in my own skin at all, like the other shoe was going to drop and society was going to collapse any moment.

It's hard for me to attach that same "I have no idea what to do with myself or how life can go on" feeling to something more abstract, like an esteemed cultural figure being murdered.

(This is not in any way a criticism of the show, or of people in the 60's, or really of anyone/anything. It's just me riffing on how world events effect people emotionally.)
posted by Sara C. at 12:00 PM on May 16, 2013


Doesn't she say she wants to be a copywriter as she's making moves on Don?

No, she makes her one and only move on Don in the pilot, before the existence of female copywriters or her desire for more than just a secretary gig is even remotely close to being a thing.

Though I think it's the next episode or maybe episode 3 where she has lunch with Paul and he mentions female copywriters. It's a pretty long way from there to the lipstick market research session where the wheels start turning in a formal "Peggy Wants To Be A Copywriter" way.

It's Megan who blatantly makes a move on Don and has a whole "really what I want to do is be a copywriter" speech as a big performative MOMENT. Peggy just puts her trembly first-day hand on Don's hand, after thanking him for a good first day. And he's all, "Honey, I am not your BOYFRIEND, OK?" and that pretty much sets the tone for the whole rest of the series.
posted by Sara C. at 12:04 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's hard for me to attach that same "I have no idea what to do with myself or how life can go on" feeling to something more abstract, like an esteemed cultural figure being murdered.

Yeah, no I get what you mean. I don't mean that grief for the death of one important person is the same level as the death of thousands of mostly unknown people - but I can see how it would make people feel the world was really unstable, like things they thought they understood just don't make sense the same way - like Dorothy said, "I don't understand, they're shooting everyone now."

I agree, it's hard for me also to picture the death of someone causing such widespread fear and uncertainty, but if I imagine even a major threat happening at the White House or something like that (yes, even if it were Bush), that would be pretty scary.
posted by sweetkid at 12:06 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Doesn't she say she wants to be a copywriter as she's making moves on Don?

No, she makes her one and only move on Don in the pilot, before the existence of female copywriters or her desire for more than just a secretary gig is even remotely close to being a thing.


Sorry, I meant Megan not Peggy.

This is what I said:


Doesn't she say she wants to be a copywriter as she's making moves on Don? I think that's why some people see it as her trying to advance her career. I'm kind of split because I never really get Megan's motives but I think it's accurate to say she was just doing what she thought was her job.
posted by sweetkid at 12:06 PM on May 16, 2013


Re Peggy/Megan confusion -- sorry, overextending myself on the internet while at work coordinating a Today Show segment and eavesdropping on a conference call.

if I imagine even a major threat happening at the White House or something like that (yes, even if it were Bush), that would be pretty scary.

I think this is where I get lost. MLK and RFK weren't the president. Like, I get how JFK's assassination shattered the country. It's (sadly) easy for me to imagine what would happen if a sitting president died in office, for ANY reason, foul play or otherwise. It's hard for me to imagine Howard Dean or Gloria Steinem being murdered and the country breaking out in chaos.

(Again, not that it wouldn't happen or that it was bad/wrong that people felt that way.)
posted by Sara C. at 12:26 PM on May 16, 2013


When she says that Megan's "good at everything" and "one of those girls," the phrases carry all of that admiration and resentment.
This type of discussion about Megan reminds me of the discussion in the media about why people hate Anne Hathaway.


This is an excellent analogy.
posted by donajo at 12:27 PM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think this is where I get lost. MLK and RFK weren't the president.

No I know. I don't know. I'm just trying to put it in the same scale. I mean we're about the same age so I don't really understand it either.
posted by sweetkid at 12:30 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also Megan's critics seem oddly blind to her actual character flaws, vain, impulsive, kinda manipulative, naive, etc.
posted by The Whelk at 1:12 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think this is where I get lost. MLK and RFK weren't the president.

Aside from September 11th, which is a different thing (what happens now? are we under attack?), the closest in my lifetime would be the announcement of Princess Diana's death, and her subsequent funeral. I'm not in the UK, but I'm pretty sure things there came to a screeching halt. And I myself vividly remember sitting in front of the TV (because that's still how we got the news) and watching the footage, in a state of shocked confusion.

No, neither MLK nor RFK were the President, but they were certainly beloved leaders. I spent a good while trying to think of a leader that has the same stature today as MLK did, and none comes to mind.

Also, be aware that everyone understood what it meant that he had been killed. That it was an overtly political act. Certainly the Marathon Bombing had the same clock stopping effect, although the victims were not nearly as famous.
posted by anastasiav at 1:17 PM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


Certainly the Marathon Bombing had the same clock stopping effect, although the victims were not nearly as famous.

This is kind of what I was thinking of. Also the whole chaos of that week (so recent) with the Texas explosion and the car chase and the suspect hiding in the boat. I didn't think the world was falling apart, exactly, but it was a mind blowing amount of chaos and violence in only one week.
posted by sweetkid at 1:21 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


No, neither MLK nor RFK were the President, but they were certainly beloved leaders. I spent a good while trying to think of a leader that has the same stature today as MLK did, and none comes to mind..

In June 2008 if either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama had been assassinated while they were campaigning for the nomination, the country would have been in serious upheaval. I think RFK was as well known as both of them, and he might have been more beloved since JFK's assassination.
posted by gladly at 1:36 PM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


yeah I think that's a good comparison gladly. Or even McCain.
posted by sweetkid at 1:37 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


No, neither MLK nor RFK were the President, but they were certainly beloved leaders. I spent a good while trying to think of a leader that has the same stature today as MLK did, and none comes to mind.

I don't think the times and circumstances make such a person even possible anymore.

Obama in June 2008 would a close comparison to Bobby Kennedy in June 1968. Obama's circumstances were bigger (first black president to-be), but '68 was a more tumultuous year. The entire country was rioting. And on the heels of MLK ... imagine if even somebody like Cindy Sheehan was murdered in April 2004 and Medea Benjamin assassinated in June 2004. The scale is smaller (less followers), but even that scenario is almost unimaginable. Which is a good thing. I think.

Why Mad Men Got the Martin Luther King Jr. Assassination So Very Right
posted by mrgrimm at 2:00 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


Why Mad Men Got the Martin Luther King Jr. Assassination So Very Right

That article makes a pretty stunning error in timeline that one of the Vanity Fair commenters also points out: Pete's Chinese food delivery was after his fight with Harry not before. His failure to emotionally connect with the Chinese food delivery guy wasn't the reason he picked the fight with Harry.
posted by sweetkid at 2:10 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Re: criticism of Megan -- I agree with Whelk that her critics are often curiously blind to her flaws. I'd add that when they do see her flaws, they tend to assume that they're not intentional, that this complex and very human character is a failed attempt to create a perfectly lovable one. This is one place where the Anne Hathaway thing gets involved -- this set of dubious assumptions about what female figures in media are actually trying to be.
posted by thesmallmachine at 2:16 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think your ideas about Megan are interesting, thesmallmachine, and I've been thinking about them while posting about MLK in this thread and doing actual work at my jobby thing.

Every time I see Weiner talk about Megan, or anyone in the show talk about her, they don't talk about her as being flawed in any way, or putting on any kind of show to appear "good" -- it's that she IS good at everything.

For example, from this EW article:

Weiner notes that last season they spent a lot of time in the writers room trying to figure out who Megan really is and what drives her. “What’s interesting to me is that she’s an idealistic person. She’s artistically idealistic. And I love that she couldn’t be kept from that,

and

“I think he wanted her to be an amazing advertising wunderkind. He was fascinated by that and thrilled that there was this person who was as good as he was and as cognizant of the landscape and the world and had this kind of very natural understanding of it,” Hamm says.


Also, I remember from that last episode of Season 5, when everyone was wondering why Don's face changed to sadness when he was watching Megan's reel, Weiner was basically like, "he realized she's so great at this and a natural talent and he couldn't hold her back" when all I saw was Jessica Pare grinning and tucking her hair behind her ear.

I think he really loves the actress and didn't think much about the character and sort of made things up as he went along. I don't know that this is the case, but it seems that way to me.

However, just because Matt Weiner says something is the motivation or reason for something doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, because art is about interpretation, and I disagree with him plenty of times, so I still think your interpretation is a valid one, even though I have trouble seeing it.

I do think I don't agree with the Anne Hathaway thing though. I think the "hatred" or whatever it is about Anne Hathaway is more because she is like a Peggy. She's clearly a striver and talked about her weight loss for the role in Les Mis and the work involved and how much she really wanted the Oscar. I think some of the articles about the hatred were talking about this, though I don't really feel like looking for them now. That people don't like hearing about celebrities talking about how hard they're working or how much they're trying and that's what's grating about her. Personally, I don't dislike Anne Hathaway at all and think she's very charming and interesting, but she's definitely NOT one of those, "oh, I just eat like hamburgers and fries and the weight falls off" or "I'm so silly I'm tripping on my dress at this big fancy people award show" (Jennifer Lawrence). She shows her work.

I think that's more Peggy than Megan, who's all "aw shucks! it was nothing!" about everything.
posted by sweetkid at 2:45 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, when Don got all sad watching her reel, I thought " oh god he's realizing she's not a very good actress." and then I spent a while thinking if it even matters if she's not a good actress cause like, performing for the camera and performing in person are very different things.
posted by The Whelk at 3:18 PM on May 16, 2013 [7 favorites]


mrgrimm: "Why Mad Men Got the Martin Luther King Jr. Assassination So Very Right"

Mad Med love AND Sorkin bashing! Is it my birthday?
posted by Dr. Zira at 3:45 PM on May 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


yeah I love me a good Sorkin bashing, too.
posted by sweetkid at 3:48 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Every time I see Weiner talk about Megan, or anyone in the show talk about her, they don't talk about her as being flawed in any way

I...kind of don't see him wholly idealizing her in those quotes, though. The fact that she's idealistic and naturally talented at work aren't related to her other faults (vanity, naivete, manipulation, as mentioned above), which may not have been relevant to the discussion. And I have to wonder how much he left of Megan's persona up to Paré's interpretation. I feel like I'm getting the sense that she's built a character much like Obama's 2008 campaign: you really can read a lot of different things into it without too much difficulty.
posted by psoas at 4:10 PM on May 16, 2013


I remember the day Gabrielle Giffords was shot, for instance. I went to a party that night like any Saturday night, and there was talk about it, but there was also drinking and debauchery and the usual party antics.

I think a better analogy, still far back in time but at least more of us were around to experience it, was the assassination of John Lennon. There was no danger of riots but the country (and obviously other countries as well) was definitely in shock, people were crying at their televisions and radios. I'm sure a lot of parties were put on hold (but still probably a lot of drinking).

In June 2008 if either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama had been assassinated while they were campaigning for the nomination, the country would have been in serious upheaval.

I also think this is a reasonable comparison. There was the same kind of energy (and hope) around their campaigns.

It's also the one-two blow. Imagine John Lennon had not been killed in 1980 and instead had continued on as a peace/social justice advocate. He's traveling the country playing concerts/giving speeches and so on. Then in early 2008 he is assassinated. Then just two months later Clinton or Obama is assassinated. You can switch out maybe Jimmy Carter for Lennon if you want a less fictional scenario.
posted by mikepop at 4:16 PM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


And I have to wonder how much he left of Megan's persona up to Paré's interpretation.

This is nevereverever a good idea and frankly is so bad that I don't think the show could possibly have done such a thing.

Actors are... actors. They're not writers. When you have a new primary character who the show is going to be spending a lot of time with going forward, you can't just say, "OK, Jessica, just, like, do whatever I guess..." You have to WRITE HER INTO THE SHOW.

I mean I think there were huge character problems with Megan through a lot of Season 5, but even I don't think they just didn't bother coming up with anything and let the actress just figure it out on her own.
posted by Sara C. at 4:23 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


This is a show that told Elizabeth Moss exactly how and when to skip down the hallway in a scene. I don't think they would let any of the actors just do whatever.
posted by sweetkid at 7:26 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


The impact of the assassinations can really only be understood in the context of what was happening at the time. The two poles of the country were at a boiling point. Blacks had finally achieved legally what had been denied them for centuries, but we're still feeling shut out of society. And Congress was debating laws about housing that whites perceived as meaning that black families were going to "invade" their suburban enclaves. There was as much tension about this in the Northeast and Midwest as the South. If you lived in a decent sized city, this was happening where you lived. Not just somewhere else on the news. Every major city had seen Negro riots for years BEFORE 1968. And then there was Vietnam, which was tearing the Democratic Party apart. Remember how ubiquitous Vietnam was in the first few episodes of this season?

So basically, much of America was either angry or terrified or both.

MLK and RFK were seen as the best hopes for finding a way to cool everything down. Roger's line, "he could really talk. I thought that would solve everything", was dead on in capturing that sentiment.

What you're seeing on the faces of the characters is them being confronted with the reality that there isn't going to be white knight to solve everything. They are staring into the void, seeing hope extinguished.
posted by dry white toast at 8:52 PM on May 16, 2013 [7 favorites]


Also, another important thing to keep in mind when watching the show from today's perspective: almost everything we detest about the modern Republican Party (both in their leaders and their base) was birthed during these few months (after being conceived by Goldwater in 1964).

Notice how when the characters discuss candidates, Nixon's name barely comes up? To say nothing of Hubert Humphrey. In a few months time, Nixon is going to trounce Humphrey in the general election. That's how quickly things are shifting.
posted by dry white toast at 9:04 PM on May 16, 2013 [6 favorites]


Indeed, you come across a lot of criticism that says the modern GOP is still stuck in 1969, fighting the same battles and still SO ANGRY about the changes we're seeing on the fringe here.
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 PM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


that's a cool explanation dry white toast.
posted by sweetkid at 9:29 PM on May 16, 2013


dry white toast: "In a few months time, Nixon is going to trounce Humphrey in the general election."

Humphrey lost the popular vote by 0.7%, just over half a million votes. Nixon carried CA, OH, and IL by less than 3 points - if Humphrey had won those states he would have won the election outright. If he'd taken OH+IL or just CA it would have been thrown to the House, which the Democrats controlled, and Humphrey would have won.

It was a hugely consequential election, but it wasn't a trouncing.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:34 PM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


Guys, I was just watching an old episode of Star Trek, and I realized that Joan Collins bears a strong resemblance to a certain daytime TV actress.

Megan Calvet is going to make one hell of a shoulder-pad wearing 80's prime-time soap star, y'all.
posted by Sara C. at 9:50 PM on May 16, 2013 [6 favorites]


I remember my Dad coming home the night John Lennon was shot. He and my Mom were just floored. They didn't go into mourning or anything, but it definitely had an impact on them emotionally.

The Challenger shuttle explosion was comparable for my generation, or at least for me. I'll never forget it. I remember where I was and how it all happened, every detail.

I was in college at the time, in Florida naturally, studying to be a teacher myself, so Christa McCauliffe being one of the first civilians to go up in the space shuttle was just about all we talked about. We felt validated. People respected teachers a bit more then, anyway, but still. It was a Big Deal.

I remember the shuttle launch had been delayed already a few times because of weather, and we were all so used to that by this time that we'd just roll our eyes, because it seemed like if the wind just blew the wrong way over at Canaveral they'd call off a launch. If anything, we all thought NASA was too careful. We'd sent men to the moon and they came back fine! Let the shuttle and the astronauts do their job, already!

You know, we took the shuttle for granted. They told us it was designed to be reusable, reliable, like tupperware. We didn't know about BPAs or any of that stuff then. We didn't know how the shuttle stuff worked, either, we just knew it did. We assumed the space program was going to last forever and frankly we had even been getting a little bored with it before they brought in Christa McCauliffe.

So, yay, first teacher in space! Let's do this thing already.

This launch, I cared about. And I was miffed, because, as luck would have it, I had a class during the launch window. You could see the shuttle take off right from the campus, but we were so blase' about it all. So many launches cancelled. They didn't even let us go outside when the countdown started any more.

So my boyfriend picked me up at the library after class, and when he said, "Did you hear about the shuttle?", I assumed there'd been yet another weather glitch keeping it on the launch pad. So I'm like, what, it got delayed again?! And he says, "It blew up."

I was so pissed at him for saying that. That's not funny! Why would you think that was funny? You know I was looking forward to seeing it this time, did it go up or not--and he cuts me off and says, "No. Really. The shuttle exploded."

And we went to his house--he lived by the university--and turned on the news. I didn't know anyone who had "Premium" TV, we sure didn't even have cable then, and there was no CNN, but it was all over ABC, NBC, and CBS. So I sit there, glued to the set, and I watch it happen.

There's the shuttle on the launchpad, like always, and all the smiley people in the park across the intercoastal waterway, looking out over the water, waiting for it to take off, like always. The countdown starts, and keeps going for a change. You can hear the glad murmur of the crowd when Challenger takes off. The relief. Finally, it's up!

There's that familiar arc, the white trail with the orange flame at the end--and then suddenly it all goes screwy. The trajectory got all spirally and weird, like a defective firecracker veering crazily across the sky, except it's daytime and the sun is shining. The happy faces of the people on the shore freeze in place, and the realization in their eyes turning into panic. An orange flare. Pieces of space stuff, flying apart in the sky. And then...nothing.

*Shudder*.

If we don't react to moments like that now, the way they did in the 60s, I think it's because we're less shielded than they were from these things. News is everywhere, 24 hours a day (such as it is), with running ticker tapes on the bottom of our screens, so we develop a filter to block it out, or it would be too much. It's different when it is actually is in your backyard. You can't block it out then. Boston folks experienced that after the marathon bombings. New York has felt like that a long time.
posted by misha at 10:18 PM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm just going to duck in to express amusement that the '68 shootings have been likened to Lennon's 1980 shooting but not to the failed asassination attempt on Ronald Reagan, an actual elected president, the same year.

I remember a LOT of people being sad about Lennon.

Ronnie didn't die, of course, but I can't say I recall any hullabaloo or real expressions of concern from anyone but media figures in that case, not counting the long-term post-shooting media career of James Brady. The President was shot, and in my memory at least, no-one cared, most emphatically not me. In hindsight, while my loathing for that idiot burns as brightly as it did at the time, it's a bit odd that I don't recall being shushed about it or instructed in, what, expressing sympathy when someone's hurt unexpectedly.

We live, and have since about 1968, in a different culture than the people on the show.
posted by mwhybark at 12:43 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


Andy Rooney, of all people, wrote a good column about how strongly people were affected by Lennon's murder. It was a Big Deal.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:12 AM on May 17, 2013


The President was shot, and in my memory at least, no-one cared,

A big part of that, I think, was that it was absolutely immediately apparent that shooting Regan was not a political act.

Of course, Lennon's murder was not really a political act either, but he was greatly beloved; promise cut off, as it were.
posted by anastasiav at 6:58 AM on May 17, 2013


A couple of factors on Reagan, I think. His not dying is a big part of it - it wasn't even common knowledge at the time that he'd come quite close. He was very much disliked by many people. Not that JFK was universally beloved, but I think Reagan may have had the edge on vitriol. As said above, it was clearly just some crazy person who did it.

Most importantly, I think it's that we'd been through the 60s and a wave of assassinations, and it no longer seemed quite so shocking. The 50s innocence thing is oversold, but it had been a long time since a president had been murdered (despite some semi-blundering attempts).
posted by Chrysostom at 7:22 AM on May 17, 2013


I was seven when John Lennon was shot. When I heard my dad talking to someone about John Lennon's death, I interrupted to ask if John Lennon was related to Vladimir Lenin. I'd never heard of John Lennon, and had no idea who he was or how his name was spelled, but I knew who Vladimir Lenin was, and the names sounded exactly alike.

It still cracks me up that I was that kind of seven-year-old.
posted by orange swan at 7:44 AM on May 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


This is even more of a derail, but the first season of The Americans, which just finished (and which I highly recommend) had an episode about the Reagan assassination attempt, but played it from the perspective of the outsiders (the Soviet spy couple that are the focus of the show) trying to understand what was going on. From the outside, it could easily have looked like a military coup. When TV is good, it's good.

And Chrysostom, you're right about Nixon's margin of victory. I got confused with the 1972 election against McGovern. Thanks for clarifying.
posted by dry white toast at 10:59 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


Indeed, you come across a lot of criticism that says the modern GOP is still stuck in 1969, fighting the same battles and still SO ANGRY about the changes we're seeing on the fringe here.

Also, don't kid yourself, much of the internal warring amongst Democrats that has frustrated people on the left for so long is a result of the scars of this period. Just like all the other convulsions the show has taken us through, I'm curious to see how they fold in the Democratic Convention in Chicago.
posted by dry white toast at 11:07 AM on May 17, 2013


Just had a realization about how I designate some of the mothers of the main characters when I think of them.

Pete's mother is Mother Campbell. Megan's mother is Maman Calvet. Joan's mother is Mama Holloway. Henry's mother is Momma Francis.
posted by orange swan at 6:30 PM on May 17, 2013


I'm curious to see how they fold in the Democratic Convention in Chicago.

My guess is that it will be via Abe, and that if Peggy and Abe are going to break up in an episode of the show, it will either happen there or the show will put the bulk of the storytelling there and then we'll never see Abe again. (Sort of like Peggy's wannabe fiance and the birthday dinner she blew off -- I don't think we saw them break up, but the writing was on the wall after that episode.)

Similarly, I think that if the Democratic Convention is discussed through the lens of Abe, and they DON'T break up there, Abe and Peggy are probably in it for the log haul.
posted by Sara C. at 6:37 PM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


Abe and Peggy are probably in it for the log haul.

The fearless return of Catherine Coulson to the small screen.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:42 PM on May 17, 2013


The link between Star Trek and David Lynch, what would David Lynch's Wrath Of Khan look like?
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 PM on May 17, 2013


Also in my scouring of my wardrobe I found I only have Pete Campell's office attire, but also Bob Benson, down to the tie patterns.
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


Pete's mother is Mother Campbell. Megan's mother is Maman Calvet. Joan's mother is Mama Holloway. Henry's mother is Momma Francis.

Peggy's mother is Ma Olsen.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:06 AM on May 18, 2013


Whew, you guys, I finally made it through the thread. Nearly killed me.

. . . About Betty. One thing that really surprised me was that they never did much with weakness in her hands. I was sure they were going to suggest she had a real, physical health problem that was being dismissed because doctors have a long history of dismissing legitimate complaints from women. The show even seemed to hint it might take us that direction with the horrible treatment Peggy got from the doctor when seeking birth control.

I have to disagree with all the January Jones haters too. I find Betty's story tragic, and JJ's portrayal perfect. She often acts as both child and bitter old hag, because she is so lost. Even with Henry, she seems to not know what she wants or even that she wants something more, because as so many have stated so much more eloquently, she thinks she should be happy as a house wife.

At least in my mind, the reason JJ's performance comes off as so cardboard to some people is because Betty is constantly trying to stifle some emotional turmoil. But there is a seething there, just below the surface that lashes out every once in a while.

I like the idea that Betty was Megan before Don ruined her. I really wonder if that is where they are taking Megan. Once having the world in the palm of her hand and yet hope and optimism slowly sapped from her as she tries to please an ever more demanding, distant Don.

I hope Betty finds peace. Maybe as the show wraps up, we'll cut from Don stepping of the building to Betty smiling as she stands at Henry's side because she loves it. Not the adoration, or being put on display, but being in a situation that offers her some power and realization of her own agency through supporting his activism. Perhaps not as fully realized or independent as we'd seen other woman in the show go, she's too damaged and the good house wife narrative is too well ingrained. But more so than the formed Mrs. Draper could have dreamed possible.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 5:27 AM on May 18, 2013 [4 favorites]


I need to start reading this thread 24/7 because I now I want to respond to two different threads of thought at once and my head kind of hurts. OK, 3, 2, 1, let's jam.
Also, I remember from that last episode of Season 5, when everyone was wondering why Don's face changed to sadness when he was watching Megan's reel, Weiner was basically like, "he realized she's so great at this and a natural talent and he couldn't hold her back" when all I saw was Jessica Pare grinning and tucking her hair behind her ear.

I think he really loves the actress and didn't think much about the character and sort of made things up as he went along. I don't know that this is the case, but it seems that way to me.
For some reason everything Matt Weiner says and thinks pisses me off, and a part of me suspects he's as responsible for all the worst aspects of Mad Men as he is for many of the best parts, but there was a shot of Megan in season 4 where Don's looking at her and she clearly CLEARLY represents The Future. The future of youth and of America and of advertising and probably of sexy secretaries too, and Don's kind of staring like he's looking at the American dream he's been dreaming of for years and only now realizing that it might come true.

And from the perspective of anybody slightly younger than Don Draper, it totally has. He has a smart, sexy wife who knows how to handle children, delights in throwing parties, performs seductive songs at said parties, and is comfortable with having sex that's got a certain kinkiness to it. And then at the end of the day she is more than willing to listen to Don open up his heart, even though that never happens. Seriously, this is a woman who won an award in advertising but left it to become an actress. In a soap. That is pretty much actually as close to the dream incarnate as you're gonna get.

But Don's still striving towards the ideal of the 50s, the nostalgia that seemingly infused that decade and still does today. The silent, handsome father we kind of saw in season 1, who comes home and is immediately the Authority in the household. His beautiful blonde wife caters to him, his children buzz around him till he swats them away, and then he goes to work and rises in status by being talented and productive. That's an older, sterner sort of American dream, the one where domestic life takes care of itself and work is rooted in individual merit, and anything that happens on the side stays on the side. (Well, nothing's technically supposed to happen in that dream because life is already perfect, but you cheat on your wife and keep it out of the glossy ad posters and it sort of curls up and goes away.)

One of the interesting things in this thread has been how people talk about Betty as suffering from Don's abuse, because it broadened my perspective on what exactly abuse entails. Betty didn't strike me as abused – she's just been trying to play from the same playbook that Don Draper is, where life really is as simple has having two perfect kids and one perfect husband and a satisfying amount of housewife gossip. Only that's not nearly enough to have a satisfying life, and a lot of Betty's problems stem from her seriously thinking that this life ought to be enough. After all, here's Don seemingly fitting into this life perfectly! And when he doesn't, like when he vanishes on Sally's birthday (or was it Gene's?), it's always in these strange and unexpected ways. We know Don's been cheating on Betty, but she doesn't, not throughout the whole first season, and the big reveal at the end there is that he's using her psychologist to spy on her. That this seemingly perfect life is just a birdcage that her husband's trapped her in to achieve his ideal world.

And then she realizes, not only has he been cheating on her, but he's not even Don Draper. Hope extinguished, like somebody upthread said about the MLK RFK thing. This wasn't a perfect marriage sullied by a few flaws, this was somebody creating an advertisement that hid the truth beneath a glossy veneer. And she bought into it, because she wanted that ad to be real, but her husband just used that to fuel his own (vastly advantageous) situation.

But even with that, I found "abuse" an interesting term, because Don struck me as just as determined to believe in his own bullshit as Betty was. He has much more power, because he knows at some level that this is all a lie, but he's still working hard to make things work the "right" way. Only his knowing is what makes him abusive, right? He understands that life is messy, and his response is essentially "Stop being such a pussy and get in line." He abandons his name, his brother, he's willing to drop everything at a hat to create a new ideal, and other people are mucking about with REALITY and complaining about how much it sucks. Well, newsflash, reality always does suck, so let's stick it away and pretend like it's not really there! We'll get satisfaction in brief affairs and alcohol and be okay with the fact that, as Don tells Rachel in the pilot (paraphrased), everybody's gonna die anyway.

The 60s becomes the decade of hope for change, and Megan really does symbolize that in a way. Because Megan's not living some fake imagined dream, this poster Don imagines her being in, she's working at doing what she wants and failing a bunch and now she's finally succeeding, for reasons that aren't quite Don's "work harder and harder and harder" ideals which are total crap anyway. And in the 60s, what Megan's doing is the dream, in a sense, because she's not just manufacturing an ideal, she's striving to make it an actual thing. But that's the opposite of Don wants, because Don's looking to escape himself, and ultimately in a world where Megan and other inspired youth are working hard to make the reality they want, Don either admits who he is to himself or he gets snuffed out. Because the 50s are finally going away.

This season is rife with imagery of the Dream failing – the two assassinations of MLK and RFK mainly – but I don't know if the message there is "change is hopeless" so much as "there's no easy way out". I'm not sure if that was a solid strong theme running through the actual 60s, but that's actually a theme that ties seriously to today, where the political landscape is so wretched that pretty much nobody thinks voting for the right man is enough. Change requires enormously hard work, and lots of failure, and people are miserable and upset a lot of the time, but ultimately when you harbor no illusions about the shittiness of the day you can actually address what it is instead of hiding from it. From the start Mad Men has been a show about a seriously ugly world, uglier even than ours is now, but hiding more convincingly under a veneer of "this is the way things ought to be" that's slowly coming apart. And Don's the guy clinging to the "ought to be" the hardest, because he's the guy for whom hopes and dreams least match up with reality.

Like I said last week-ish, I'm really curious how Don and Megan play out, not because of Don – we get it, you want to make people act THIS way but they really are THIS way – but because of Megan. I don't know how much of her wants her marriage to Don to hold up to this fake ideal, and how much of her is idealistic but willing to look the reality of the situation right in the face. I don't think she'll be shattered like Betty was to realize Don was cheating on her, but she'll be hurt, and she'll also be pissed off. Does she calm down afterwards and try to change Don, forcing him to finally get over his awful awful ways (ooooh, maybe SHE sends HIM to a psychologist), or does Matt Weiner's Symbol of the Sixties look at Don and say "I don't need you" and shove him out of a window?

Because Don Draper is certainly awful, in his behavior as a father, as a husband, as a boss, as a friend, even as an adulterer – as last week proved amply – but he comes from a place of serious mental anguish. Does it matter more that his past was terrible, or that his present self IS terrible? Does the wounded child find solace, or the crappy adult get what's coming to him?

This is something I wonder about Pete, too. Because Pete is the crude mimic of Don: he tries to get everything Don gets but he's vastly worse at getting it, probably because he doesn't quite grasp how deep the rabbit hole for Don is. Pete still reacts to the world emotionally, he still is wounded when it hurts him, whereas Don is past having any hope for anything but his manufactured dream whatsoever. So things go wrong for Pete in more spectacular ways than they do for Don, but he's more capable of responding to them and being hurt by them and growing from them (perhaps) than Don is. He's the brute that reveals how wretched Don's actions really are, because he's the one that gets caught doing them. Does he realize his own problem? Is he going to get to escape from that cycle of wants? Or is he as trapped as Don, even though one realizes it and the other doesn't?

It all hinges on Weiner's oft-stated sentiment that people don't fundamentally change, which is a sentiment that goes both ways. Does Weiner mean behaviors don't change, and that Pete and Don are stuck in this system forever until it washes its hands of both of them? Or does he mean that the wants and needs stay the same, in which case the problem with D & P is that they each refuse to acknowledge what they're looking for? Does Mad Men end on the grim note of once you're trapped, you're trapped, or does it end with the hope that maybe honesty and self-awareness is what lets people finally change?

Of course, it could also end on both notes at once.
posted by Rory Marinich at 7:36 AM on May 18, 2013 [5 favorites]


I was sure they were going to suggest she had a real, physical health problem that was being dismissed because doctors have a long history of dismissing legitimate complaints from women.

The main problem with pursuing this storyline is that it's not something that was really resolved or improved in the 60's at all. I guess Betty could luck out and get a new, more sympathetic doctor when she moved from Ossining to Rye, but that wouldn't be dramatically interesting.

The real revolution in doctors starting to take patients* more seriously and engaging with them on their level rather than as an authoritarian patriarch happened much later, in the 70's and probably really more into the 80's and 90's, directly on the backs of the broader social changes of the 60's.

Not to mention that I think that, in early episodes, Betty had probably gone about as far as medicine in the early 60's could go. I don't think there's some obvious well-known solution that her GP isn't hearing because she's just a silly little woman.

That said, the implication is that her hand tremors went away because of therapy, I guess? Which...?

Then again, season 2 opens with Betty taking horseback riding lessons, so maybe the psychiatrist suggested that as a combination of physical therapy and relaxing "me time" for Betty? That sounds shockingly modern for 1960 and the psychiatrist as presented on the show, but I do think it's an interesting choice and it feels somewhat related (season 1 Betty didn't get hobbies, period).

*I use "patients" here rather than women, because doctors are still dismissing women's health complaints even today. I think that things got better in general, and for women in the sense that some doctors came to see women's needs as patients as part of patients' needs in general. But this is definitely still an open issue today.
posted by Sara C. at 9:51 AM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't know how much of her wants her marriage to Don to hold up to this fake ideal, and how much of her is idealistic but willing to look the reality of the situation right in the face.

I've been thinking about this a lot. And in fact, it's one of the ways I find the characterization of Megan and last season's focus on her and Don's relationship kind of odd. (Though maybe this was deliberate on the part of the writers?)

What did Megan come into this marriage wanting? What does she think marriage is? Who does she think Don is?

It's obvious that Megan and Don have a very different marriage than Betty and Don. And it's obvious that there couldn't have been that 50's style pretense of young virginal model citizens taking up the American Dream together in an idealistic way, as would likely have been the case for Don's first marriage.

But how does Megan see her relationship to Don? What does she think about infidelity? Does she see the two of them as equals, or as him as daddy/boss and herself as a slightly sexier version of the 50's ideal? How does his money come into it? Does she feel like their marriage as it stands in 1968 is a failure, or that this is just a rough patch because marriage is hard and it's a hard time and people are stressed out?

Some of this was touched on last season, but I'm still left with a huge hole in the part about Megan herself and what she thinks her marriage is about. With Betty it was pretty obvious that she believed in the Dream and shattered when it was revealed to be a fiction. With Megan, I don't know. In some ways I feel like she's experienced enough to know better. In others, she seems a lot more naive than Betty was.
posted by Sara C. at 10:03 AM on May 18, 2013 [3 favorites]



. . . About Betty. One thing that really surprised me was that they never did much with weakness in her hands. I was sure they were going to suggest she had a real, physical health problem that was being dismissed because doctors have a long history of dismissing legitimate complaints from women.


Anxiety is a real, physical health problem and a legitimate complaint. My impression from the situation was that Betty had anxiety triggered by her mother's death, and while the psychiatrist she went to was pretty far from ideal, at least from a modern perspective, she at least had an outlet for her thoughts, which can be very therapeutic.

That said, the implication is that her hand tremors went away because of therapy, I guess? Which...?

Yes, I think that's certainly possible.
posted by sweetkid at 10:50 AM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah Betty's anxiety attacks are pretty true to my own experiences in Seaosn 1 I:E the total locking up and unable to move away thing.
posted by The Whelk at 10:59 AM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


My elipses and question mark was more because it seemed like the show portrayed psychiatry as not very helpful to Betty, and potentially more anxiety-making since now there's this guy who repeats everything she says back to her husband. It didn't seem to be the story of someone who needed help, and got help, and solved a problem.

But then they dropped the mental health/shaky hands/anxiety subplot entirely for season 2.

So I guess we're left to assume that it resolved itself?
posted by Sara C. at 11:08 AM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think having an outlet for herself in horseback riding helped her lots.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:11 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


I woke up this morning and thought "Mad Men Day!" and immediately hied on over to this thread.

We're getting to the part of the season where the dread mounts. Which is worse...what each episode has in store, or the fact that the season will soon be over?

I'm just glad to be experiencing it with all of you.
posted by mynameisluka at 10:19 AM on May 19, 2013 [4 favorites]


For some reason everything Matt Weiner says and thinks pisses me off, and a part of me suspects he's as responsible for all the worst aspects of Mad Men as he is for many of the best parts, but there was a shot of Megan in season 4 where Don's looking at her and she clearly CLEARLY represents The Future.

There is no way Weiner would ever say something like "Megan represents the Future". Even if he's written her that way, it's not something he would say in the context of any discussion of the show. So that line about Don recognising her talent is a pretty neat way of deflecting the question - or only engaging with it on a very surface level, because I don't think he wants to tell the audience what to think.

I mean, I disagree with things he says about the show, too - but I don't really think we're getting all of what he thinks, because all of what he thinks is in the show. Not in soundbytes of interviews afterward. Maybe once season seven concludes he'll tag Megan as The Future, but not before.
posted by crossoverman at 2:12 PM on May 19, 2013


Yeah, it's possible that the reason his talking is so irritating is that he's very guarded. It's still irritating, though.
posted by Rory Marinich at 3:10 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Weiner can also be wrong about the show, y'know.
posted by shakespeherian at 3:30 PM on May 19, 2013


Yes, I meant to say - he could also be wrong.
posted by crossoverman at 3:34 PM on May 19, 2013


Artists aren't always aware of all the meaning and implications of their own work. Elisabeth Moss said on one of the commentary tracks for the pilot episode that she thought Peggy loved Pete, and I was like, what? After one day? When he'd been such a pig towards her? My own theory is that he was just part of a brave new world that she was anxious to experience (she very much wanted to be "one of those girls"), and a solace for having put the moves on Don and been shot down, and then after that they had a connection that developed into something close to love because they saw each other every work day (and Pete may very well have been Peggy's first-ever partner) and of course there was the baby.
posted by orange swan at 5:18 PM on May 19, 2013


Actors have to find justifications for their characters' actions - and that doesn't necessarily have to be the objective truth of the situation. It has to be right for the performance - what the actor thinks the character is going through. I'm always fascinated by how actors justify these things to themselves, but I never tend to look to an actor to get an objective thought on the character. I think a writer or director should have a better sense of a characters' position in the narrative - but you can't know how an audience is going to react until they react.

Weiner and Kartheiser don't think Pete raped the au pair back in season two, but the line is pretty blurred and consent is not clear. And if the audience is confused about whether it was consensual or not, it doesn't matter what Weiner and Kartheiser intended. But for me Kartheiser probably thinks Pete didn't rape her - because Pete needs to believe that. Weiner may not have intended it, but it was ambiguous - thus different viewer reactions.
posted by crossoverman at 5:41 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


Watching Mad Men on AMC means I catch the last five minutes of some really crappy movies.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:59 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Put that gun away, Jack!
posted by box at 7:01 PM on May 19, 2013


Ken Cosgrove lost a ton of weight?
posted by sweetkid at 7:04 PM on May 19, 2013


GE taking Ken Cosgrove from Accounts for a joyride in an Impala: It's a metaphor for the way they took America for a joyride AMIRITE?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:04 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sure, in the hospital.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:05 PM on May 19, 2013


Stalker Don is stalky.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:05 PM on May 19, 2013


He's feeling a lot of emotions.
posted by box at 7:07 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


This is not going to be a jaunty music episode, is it?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:07 PM on May 19, 2013


Hey, phones cost a lot of money back now!
posted by Chrysostom at 7:07 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


WHY does he like her so much I do not understand
posted by sweetkid at 7:07 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Dick Whitman has tuberculosis!
posted by ChuraChura at 7:08 PM on May 19, 2013


He's our huckleberry!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:09 PM on May 19, 2013


OMG that Sally/Bobby exchange is SO me and my brother
posted by sweetkid at 7:09 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh no, Peggy's outfit NO.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:10 PM on May 19, 2013


Speed?!? ... butt speed?
posted by ChuraChura at 7:12 PM on May 19, 2013


SCDPCGCAmphetamines
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:12 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Weiner's been reading this thread, calling out the name thing directly.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:13 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Don't worry about it.
posted by box at 7:13 PM on May 19, 2013


So now it's not just the whore robe it's the whore cough?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:16 PM on May 19, 2013


Is it weird that Lincoln jumps from the 60s to the 2010s?
posted by box at 7:17 PM on May 19, 2013


True story: I'm watching this with a fever and cold. Already a little disoriented. Nice of Weiner to choose tonight to wrinkle my brain.
posted by dry white toast at 7:18 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Call Ginsberg: We're going to run with Whores: The Cure for the Common Cold Tuberculosis.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:18 PM on May 19, 2013


aw feel better dry white toast! Have plenty of tea...maybe with dry white toast.
posted by sweetkid at 7:20 PM on May 19, 2013


MetaFilter: You just flushed a toilet in my head.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:20 PM on May 19, 2013 [5 favorites]


The timbre is important!
posted by box at 7:21 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think I must have dropped some acid earlier.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:22 PM on May 19, 2013


It's a jaunty music episode without the jaunty music.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:22 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is anyone else seeing this ending with another John Deere incident?
posted by dry white toast at 7:22 PM on May 19, 2013


Callback to "the doorway" when Don talks about the one idea that will "open the door."
posted by sweetkid at 7:23 PM on May 19, 2013


Also, the whore is Don's mother.
posted by dry white toast at 7:24 PM on May 19, 2013


I feel like we took a left turn into Mametsville.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:26 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


I hope this lady is not a one-shot.
posted by box at 7:26 PM on May 19, 2013


I do, I don't like her.
posted by sweetkid at 7:27 PM on May 19, 2013


WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON?!?
posted by Chrysostom at 7:27 PM on May 19, 2013 [10 favorites]


This episode will end and it will all be a dream of Alex P. Keaton.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:28 PM on May 19, 2013


I feel like the whole agency is going to have a heart attack.
posted by sweetkid at 7:29 PM on May 19, 2013


Hey, I didn't say I liked her.
posted by box at 7:33 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


If meth brings me Steggy, I'm okay with it.
posted by gladly at 7:34 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


I get all my luxury car buying tips from Iggy Pop.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:34 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


This is why we can't have nice service entrances.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on May 19, 2013


eeee STEGGY!!!
posted by sweetkid at 7:35 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


WE HAVE STEGGY!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


THIS IS SO RIGHT
posted by sweetkid at 7:35 PM on May 19, 2013


Oooooh!
posted by box at 7:36 PM on May 19, 2013


Thank you Wiener Claus!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:36 PM on May 19, 2013


OH GOD I HAD TO PAUSE THE DVR UNTIL MY HUSBAND CAME HOME AND WE ARE 15 MINUTES BEHIND!

*WILD FLAILING*
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:36 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


whhhat is going on
posted by sweetkid at 7:39 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


What the?
posted by box at 7:39 PM on May 19, 2013


OH she is looking for the WRONG DON DRAPER
posted by sweetkid at 7:40 PM on May 19, 2013


Guys, call 911. I think I had an aneurysm.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:40 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


What the flibbity fuck is happening in this episode?
posted by gladly at 7:40 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ooh, I like that spice rack.
posted by box at 7:40 PM on May 19, 2013


wait no that can't be right if she has a key.
posted by sweetkid at 7:41 PM on May 19, 2013


I'm a little addled, so everyone else is seeing a black woman giving Sally a hug right?
posted by dry white toast at 7:41 PM on May 19, 2013 [7 favorites]


I have absolutely no idea what is going on.
posted by .kobayashi. at 7:41 PM on May 19, 2013


This is like that episode of 30 Rock when Liz took the tranquilizers and hallucinated Oprah.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:42 PM on May 19, 2013


Also, I'm beginning to lose hope that Bert Cooper will be part of the SCDPCGC drug parade.
posted by .kobayashi. at 7:42 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


I need some Oreo vampires to chill me out.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


The archives!
posted by box at 7:45 PM on May 19, 2013


I really wish I had drugs guys or even some alcohol. Seems important to understanding the story
posted by sweetkid at 7:45 PM on May 19, 2013


It appears that the SCD archives are located in the Poor Man's Process.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:45 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Okay, so maybe not Don's mother.
posted by dry white toast at 7:46 PM on May 19, 2013


You like my bosom.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:46 PM on May 19, 2013


You get a dexadrine! And you get a dexadrine! And you get a dexadrine!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


So Sylvia reminds him of this blond hooker from the past and that's why he likes her?
posted by sweetkid at 7:47 PM on May 19, 2013


jesus god this thread is killing me, how am i going to survive until this shows up on the torrents in half an hour, and by that i mean until west coast airtime of course
posted by palomar at 7:47 PM on May 19, 2013 [4 favorites]


Sweetie, it's Bobby #4.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:47 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


WHO IS THIS PERSON?

OMG talk about "Magical Negro" this is so weird and wrong ish.
posted by sweetkid at 7:47 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


Bobby Draper FTW!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:48 PM on May 19, 2013


Okay, the line "Are we Negroes?" has me totally sold.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:48 PM on May 19, 2013 [4 favorites]


This is scary
posted by sweetkid at 7:49 PM on May 19, 2013


Said it before and I'll say it again. What the?
posted by box at 7:49 PM on May 19, 2013


Don's paper reads: ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JACK A DULL BOY
posted by Chrysostom at 7:49 PM on May 19, 2013 [6 favorites]


I think she's Bizarro Oprah. She's like the Krampus of Oprahs.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:50 PM on May 19, 2013 [5 favorites]


This is the darkest timeline.
posted by dry white toast at 7:51 PM on May 19, 2013 [7 favorites]


What the hell's going to happen in the next ten minutes?
posted by box at 7:51 PM on May 19, 2013


This is what happens when The Whelk goes missing. SOMEBODY BRING BACK THE WHELK SO WE CAN GET OUT OF THE LABYRINTH.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:51 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


Well, I wasn't expecting that.
posted by box at 7:52 PM on May 19, 2013


I think the Whelk played the drug doctor.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:52 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Steggy Code Blue. STEGGY CODE BLUE.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:52 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Whelk's absence is indeed odd. Has anyone been looking at Twitter? It's all "what the--"
posted by sweetkid at 7:53 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


No way. That doctor was poorly dressed.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:54 PM on May 19, 2013


Is that Sylvia's maid? I'm trying to think of how she could have gotten into the building past the doorman...
posted by ChuraChura at 7:55 PM on May 19, 2013


donajo is on a vacation in New Mexico right now. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:55 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


A little Johnnie Walker will make sense of this thing.
posted by box at 7:56 PM on May 19, 2013


I'm glad someone from the T LOunge told me how to feel:

I feel like I'm on the drug that the characters are on in this episode...so, well done Mad Men.


(other than that, I just feel squicky.)
posted by peagood at 7:57 PM on May 19, 2013


She's off on the casting couch...OH SNAP BETTY DRAPER.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:58 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


How did she know the kids' names though?
posted by sweetkid at 7:58 PM on May 19, 2013


She's off on the casting couch...OH SNAP BETTY DRAPER.

Betty Draper Francis being RIGHT is what
posted by sweetkid at 7:59 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


She didn't, she got the info from Sally.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:59 PM on May 19, 2013


oh, right.
posted by sweetkid at 8:00 PM on May 19, 2013


I see we're back to that Blue and Yellow theme TLo mentioned.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:00 PM on May 19, 2013


Once again, Henry Francis is a decent guy.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:01 PM on May 19, 2013


Oh, Don, we don't know anything about you.
posted by box at 8:02 PM on May 19, 2013


Again. AGAIN!
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:03 PM on May 19, 2013


Betty's back to Thin Betty right? Hard to tell because she was holding Gene over her the whole time.
posted by sweetkid at 8:04 PM on May 19, 2013


I don't know how I feel about that episode.
posted by sweetkid at 8:04 PM on May 19, 2013 [4 favorites]


It was extremely...something.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:06 PM on May 19, 2013


I know I can't watch the immediate playback. Wow. I need a break.
posted by readery at 8:06 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm sure that tapdancing Ken is going to be the gif of the week. Beyond that, I have no idea about anything.
posted by .kobayashi. at 8:07 PM on May 19, 2013 [4 favorites]


Ken, Kenny, ken, KEN.

Cole!
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 PM on May 19, 2013


And it already exists. Well done, internet. You can take the rest of the night off.
posted by .kobayashi. at 8:10 PM on May 19, 2013 [10 favorites]


Can someone watch the replay with Dark Side of the Moon on. You know, just to see.
posted by dry white toast at 8:10 PM on May 19, 2013 [4 favorites]


That episode was about Don hitting bottom. At least, I really hope it was. He's so fucked up this is starting to feel like S&M porn.
posted by dry white toast at 8:12 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


On what street corner?
posted by box at 8:14 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


Wow, Sally called Henry "Daddy."
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:14 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


I am going to watch it again because I am 99% certain that Mr. Roark is going to walk in at any moment to teach me a valuable life lesson.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:14 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


In hindsight, the boob buttons on Peggy's peach striped shift were portents of the episode to come.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:16 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm just now watching this episode oh god oh god

TICKETS ARE NOW AVAILABLE TO DON DRAPER'S PERSONAL APOCALYPSE

I am available to Chevy.

LET ME SHOOT YOU FULL OF METH.
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 PM on May 19, 2013 [5 favorites]


Everyone wait while The Whelk catches up on all the joke points.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:18 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don's paper reads: ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JACK A DULL BOY

ALL SOUP AND NO WHORES MAKES DON A COUGH COUGH
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:19 PM on May 19, 2013 [4 favorites]


Don Draper's grapes of wrath childhood is now suddenly interesting.
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on May 19, 2013


Sally has all the sassy, it is hers.

Also my book has a similarly sassy girl named Sally in roughly the same time erod so OMG.
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 PM on May 19, 2013


she IS thin Betty.
posted by sweetkid at 8:22 PM on May 19, 2013


Peggy's outfit I can't even

It's totally son I bought yu this car.


Oh god this episode is insane.
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Class secretiary!
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 PM on May 19, 2013


The boob buttons on Peggy's striped dress make her chest look like the Cheshire Cat. Now I cannot unsee it.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:25 PM on May 19, 2013



Oh god this episode is insane.


JUST WAIT
posted by sweetkid at 8:25 PM on May 19, 2013


Ken...Kenny..KEN Tap dance I just KENNY OMG
posted by The Whelk at 8:26 PM on May 19, 2013 [7 favorites]


So did Don schtup his whore-mother? "Who taught you that?" "My mother. No, my first girlfriend."
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:26 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh god everyone is hysterical and on drugs
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 PM on May 19, 2013


The Whelk will have FIFTEEN comments by Monday but we have to look him IN THE EYE.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:27 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


Don, ask a question
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on May 19, 2013


Where do whores go?
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:29 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


SOUP
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


SHEVY
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:30 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


Don is having serial blackouts, this is like Lynch.
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 PM on May 19, 2013


Megan's outfit, oh God, SALLY.

You're on TV everyday!
posted by The Whelk at 8:33 PM on May 19, 2013


AH GOD BROOUGHS MOTIFS OH GOD
posted by The Whelk at 8:33 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


What are they watching on TV?
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:35 PM on May 19, 2013


They are watching The Prisinor, UK SO confirmed.
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 PM on May 19, 2013


McGoohan FTW.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:38 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Ooh god this is now a serial killer noir thing oh god
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 PM on May 19, 2013


STEGGY OMG
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think I have this black shift Peggy is wearing in my closet.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:41 PM on May 19, 2013


Peggy and Stan, BFFs FOREVER
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on May 19, 2013


WTF
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on May 19, 2013


WHO THE HELL IS IDA OH MY FUCKING GOD WAHT THE HELL IS GOING ON OH GOD SALLY
posted by The Whelk at 8:45 PM on May 19, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think I have this black shift Peggy is wearing in my closet

Why is Peggy in your closet wearing dressy clothes?
posted by sweetkid at 8:46 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


i am tired and I need to go to bed, but:

What happened to Roger?
Where was Joan?
Where was Bob Benson?
posted by readery at 8:47 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Roger went to the hospital with someone. Ed?
posted by sweetkid at 8:47 PM on May 19, 2013


WELCOME TO MY VERY OWN PERSONAL ARMAGEDDON, CARE OF MR DON DRAPER
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 PM on May 19, 2013


Also this all took place over the weekend so it makes sense we didn't see everyone.
posted by sweetkid at 8:48 PM on May 19, 2013


Duh, Bob Benson was the black cat burglar woman.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:48 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


DON LOOTING STORAGE
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on May 19, 2013


Do you like girls?
posted by The Whelk at 8:50 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Don Draper, just gonna confuse sex and motherhood forever.
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


sweetkid: "Why is Peggy in your closet wearing dressy clothes?"

She is my spirit animal, who talked me off of a ledge when a former boss once told me at an interview "We've had many women work here as lawyers."
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:51 PM on May 19, 2013


Fuck shit I so scared by grandma Ida.
posted by The Whelk at 8:52 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]




Shut this door.
posted by The Whelk at 8:54 PM on May 19, 2013


What if they turn off the TV?
posted by The Whelk at 8:55 PM on May 19, 2013


You know you're in trouble when Don's dialogue sounds eerily similar to Rachel Zoe.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:55 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


STEGGY DENIED.
posted by The Whelk at 8:56 PM on May 19, 2013


Also, said SO said " he's self destructing, really, really publicly."

Also oh god what the fuck Ida aaaaaaaah thisepisodemoh god.
posted by The Whelk at 8:58 PM on May 19, 2013


All that's to come
and everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:59 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Resolved: Next week we all watch with a bottle of Johnnie Walker and some Oreos.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:01 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don don don stop thinking about Sylvia oh god there are. Cops
posted by The Whelk at 9:01 PM on May 19, 2013


Oh man, Betty. I am with you.
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Whorehouses are not very nurturing environments for impressionable young minds, are they?
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:03 PM on May 19, 2013


WELCOME TO MAD MEN THE SPECIAL TONIGHT IS DON DRAOERS PYSCHOSEXUAL TURMOIL, WOULD YOU LIKE SOME BEATING WITH YOUR MEAL YES
posted by The Whelk at 9:04 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


If I was Sally I'd go and join a farming commune like, in an instant.
posted by The Whelk at 9:04 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Two questions:
Please tell me that the hippie girl who appears in Don's office isn't the girl he met backstage at the Rolling Stones' concert? She looked vaguely familiar, and I'm really hoping that's not it.

Was Stan's cousin Robbie, the guy who tagged along to Don's birthday bash at the start of season 5?
posted by peppermind at 9:04 PM on May 19, 2013


The hippie girl was Gleason's daughter. And I thought that, too, about the sailor at Don's birthday party.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:05 PM on May 19, 2013


SALLY OMG SALLY.

Don't infect her with your problems Don
posted by The Whelk at 9:06 PM on May 19, 2013


Sally: He loves puppies, you can go from there.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:06 PM on May 19, 2013


That was one...awful weekend.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on May 19, 2013


Enjoy the headaches on Monday SUCKERS
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:08 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


STEGASAURUS SEX
posted by mynameisluka at 9:17 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


So...who was I Ching chick? Also, poor Dawn.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:19 PM on May 19, 2013


Again, I Ching girl was Gleason's daughter. This is clearly spelled out by the dialogue at the end between Cutler and Chaough.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:20 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Whoops, preview fail, PhoB. I thought that was what I heard, but this episode is really not computing what with the synapse overload and all.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:21 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


CVHEY


no, actually, I got nothin
posted by mwhybark at 9:26 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Visible hed on copy board in creative room in one scene: LESS IS MORE


ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

heh

You see what happens when you try to run an agency without Tec Chaough?
posted by mwhybark at 9:37 PM on May 19, 2013


Gleason's daughter was pretty upbeat, with her father just passing away and all. Goes straight from the funeral to throwing the I Ching and fucking Stan.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:38 PM on May 19, 2013


Grandma Ida needs excavation, big time. All the pre-known info. Also, that green bag is deliberately clear in her shots. MeFi Jr. plot detectives, GO!
posted by mwhybark at 9:40 PM on May 19, 2013


Gleason's daughter was pretty upbeat

Maybe the Smoke Monster got to her.
posted by mwhybark at 9:41 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Okay. The buzz is fading and I am feeling dirtier and dirtier.

Whore-in-Law got paid $5 to do it with Dick?
Stan fucked a 14-year-old whose dad just died?
Peggy wistfully referred to her processing of emotion?
Don's rheumy eyes stared into the abyss of existence?

I feel tired and old now.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:43 PM on May 19, 2013


Well, that was a giant pile of WTF.
posted by palomar at 9:48 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


After all this blue/yellow talk, I kind of freaked out about Ted's green blazer just now.

TLo's insidious color obsession is getting to me.
posted by purpleclover at 9:55 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


EVERYTHING WAS FUCKED UP AND BULLSHIT AND CRAZY.

Mad Men! It's like life, nothing happens for weeks and then a single weekend makes EVERYTHING HAPPENS OMG ALL THE TIME.

I mean I seriously thought Grandma Ida was actually related to Don until like, the final scene. That showed unhinged this episode was what with the BLACKOUTS AND FLASHBACKS AND THE PEGGY OH GOD PEGGY- AND SALLY AND DON IS STALKING SYLVIA OH GOD WTF AHHH!

Once again, from Megan's POV, THIS IS THE FUCKING STRANGEST SHIT.

EVERYTHING IS UPSIDE DOWN AND BETTY IS THE BITCHY VOICE OF REASON CAUSE WHY NOT.

Seriously this entire episode was what's like to go on weird bender while Stuff Is Happening.
posted by The Whelk at 9:58 PM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]


Betty has yet to learn the first rule of being a candidate's wife: don't make news. Don't make a scene, keep your trap shut around other people.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:01 PM on May 19, 2013


I kinda think, once it sinks in, that being married to Don Draper the perfect farm-team prep for being married to a politician.
posted by The Whelk at 10:03 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also, I want to marry Ken Cosgrove. I want to live with him in Queens and bake him pies. He can write social justice Sci-Fi short stories in the den while I dust the plastic covering on the couch.
posted by The Whelk at 10:13 PM on May 19, 2013 [7 favorites]


Soooooo ... are we willing to go as simple as:
Blue: The Past
Yellow: The Future?
posted by purpleclover at 10:16 PM on May 19, 2013


I am going to have to rewatch that episode, because I was kind of half-watching most of it while doing other stuff, and... didn't really manage to follow much of anything. Except that creepy-ass Grandma Ida stuff. I could tell right off the bat she was lying, but she was pretty good at her game.

They certainly managed to convey the confusion and weird time-jumpiness of whatever flavor of speed they were doing in the office. Maybe even better than Roger's LSD trip, except there it was more clearly delineated from other stuff happening. Which was maybe the point. Maybe 1968 was just like a giant case of everyone trying to cope with all the confusing, terrible, seemingly random shit happening all around them, and mostly failing or resorting to dysfunctional tools. I was barely a toddler at the time, so I had my own stuff going on and wasn't really paying much attention.
posted by Superplin at 10:21 PM on May 19, 2013


Kenny walks outta the house near the corner of 32nd Ave and 77th Street. His wife says to call a cab but he doesn't want to, Doc said it'd be better he put weight on it, he walks the blocks to the Jackson Hills subway stop. From there it's a good 30 mins to the Time Life building. He tries to sit, if he can find a seat. Kenny is mostly just thinking. Thinking about life, the universe, and everything. Thinking about the three short blocks from the subway to the office and how it's not that many steps, once you subtracts the steps up from the subway. Kenny thinks and leans on his hated cane. Kenny thinks:

"FUUUUUCK THIIIIIIS SHIIIIIIIIT."
posted by The Whelk at 10:24 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Harry Hamlin and John Slattery playing checkers.

METH RACE.

METH is aOK for heart conditions.

You're pretentious AND I LIKE THAT.

Don finally spelling out his unmoored, half baked inner thought process.

The board on Ted's desk with a terrible line "your first big step is a little one"
posted by stratastar at 10:30 PM on May 19, 2013


Meanwhile Peggy is having a confusing sexual adventure of her own and her DAD is like, GOING FUCKING CRAZY in the office talking about soup and seriously no, nothing makes sense anymore just kiss Stan and then watch him fuck Wendy sure it's fine it makes about as much sense as anything else.

Also, I am Sally Draper and not only am I HELD CAPTIVE by this crazy con-woman bugler thing but I believe it cause I actually have NO IDEA who my father is and quite frankly it's starting to BE A THING.

I'm Megan and WTF, COPS, KIDS, BETTY I LITERALLY JUST GOT OFF SET WHAT IS GOING ON. God, I'm still in makeup. Why is Betty here?

I'M DON DRAPER AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT DAY IT IS CAUSE NOT LANDING THIS CAMPAIGN IS LIKE WHEN I WAS SICK AND A WOMAN MY NOT-DAD EMPLOYED AS A PROSTITUTE KINDA FORCED HERSELF ON ME AND THEN I GOT BEATEN WITH A SPOON- whew! Good thing that doesn't inform my current character or situation at all I'm just going to sit down and why is my arm so numb who are you oh no please don't hit me again -
posted by The Whelk at 10:32 PM on May 19, 2013 [5 favorites]


ALSO SHOOTING EVERYONE FULL OF SPEED IS JUST GREAT IDEA A GREAT GREET GREEET GEEET GREAT greaaat great greeeee - memory of my boardwalk empire childhood - great idea.
posted by The Whelk at 11:03 PM on May 19, 2013


I know you're all feeling the darkness here today, but there's no reason to WOOOOOO LET'S TEAR UP SOME MAGAZINES AND TRIP OUR BALLS OFF HEY GRANDMA IDA WHY IS YOUR PURSE CLANKING
posted by palomar at 11:18 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


I have received the Prisoner reference I craved! I AM HAPPY.

And the clip was pretty resonant. If I'm not mistaken, it's from the beginning of "Free For All" -- the episode where Number 6 is coerced into running for office. Like Don, he spends most of the episode heavily drugged, docile and staring, repeating the campaign speeches his captors have written. At one point, he begins to come down and throws a deranged tantrum, snarling for alcohol, before quickly being drugged again. The election is rigged in his favor, but its ultimate result is only a show of the forces arrayed against him. Psychedelia abounds and nothing makes temporal sense. A woman slaps Patrick McGoohan many times. THE PRISONER.

(Boo doo doo doo, doo doo doo, doo doo doooooo! Crude animation of bars closing over a cutout of a human face.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 12:57 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also, the Prisoner clip is synched into the exact middle of the episode with military precision. Sally picks up the phone as 2 asks if 6 would "fancy a chat," and asks for Don to come home as 6 barks "the mountain must come to Muhammad." Megan's appearance in the doorway, right next to the screen, is synchronized with 2's entrance into 6's house.

I know I'm being kind of "Dark Side of the Moon"-ish with this -- I haven't even got to the part where the woman who slaps 6 at the end of "Free For All" is dark-haired and dressed as a maid, or the very prominent use of a looking-down-the-staircase shot in both episodes. Don't mean to present this as a big interpretive key. I know the clip is mostly there because it's timely and both Prisoner in general and "Free For All" in specific have some nice resonances for "The Crash." I'm just saying that those resonances are very nice, and someone has thought about them.
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:42 AM on May 20, 2013 [8 favorites]


I'm thinking back to the pilot of Six Feet Under when Claire is tripping and finds out her dad is dead - and she doesn't know how to act or react because she's drug-fucked but she has to try to deal with this real thing that is happening and...

THIS WAS THAT BUT IF EVERYONE WAS SHOT UP WITH SPEED AND HAD TO WORK ALL WEEKEND FOR CHEVY AND...

I don't know if I liked it, but I think I loved it.
posted by crossoverman at 4:46 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Are we the only household that shouted out "Oh my god. you killed Kenny!"?
posted by anastasiav at 4:53 AM on May 20, 2013 [8 favorites]


AV Club review lead in: "What the ever-loving merciful fuck?"
posted by Chrysostom at 5:31 AM on May 20, 2013 [5 favorites]


I sorta get the feeling Bobby was disappointed that the crazy lady wasn't his real Grandma.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:40 AM on May 20, 2013 [3 favorites]


Speaking of grandparents, does it seem like Ginsberg ages twenty years between episodes?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:42 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


AV Club review lead in: "What the ever-loving merciful fuck?"
posted by Chrysostom at 8:31 AM on May 20


All day long, I'm going to be grateful for confirmation that it wasn't just me being alternately skeeved and delighted during last night's episode, both here and everywhere else it crops up.

And "Lil’ Don and the Whorehouse Follies" would be an excellent band name.
posted by peagood at 6:20 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]




Ugh, whenever I think Don can't get more reprehensible, he just goes and does.
posted by moody cow at 7:07 AM on May 20, 2013


Wait, what did Don do that was exceptionally reprehensible this episode?
posted by drezdn at 7:13 AM on May 20, 2013


Also, whose heart stopped again?
posted by mwhybark at 7:18 AM on May 20, 2013


Also, just gonna say it.

Wendy ---> Peter Pan
posted by The Whelk at 7:28 AM on May 20, 2013


Betty has yet to learn the first rule of being a candidate's wife: don't make news. Don't make a scene, keep your trap shut around other people.

But then how could she blame Don for everything that is bad in her life?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:41 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


From the TLO recap:

There was a fantastically subtle moment when Peggy was listening to Stan and that baby-faced copywriter, whose name we still don’t know, rattling off, well, nothing but crap, really. Peggy dutifully took notes of their ramblings and when Ginsberg asked for her pen so he could take notes, he realized it was “unclicked” and she hadn’t been writing anything at all.

Ha! I totally missed this. I was watching this already disorienting episode with a headache and tired out from a lot of driving so a re-watch seems almost mandatory before I try to make any sense of anything.

And while I get the point of Sally not really knowing anything about Don's past and that this woman could con her under somewhat more normal circumstances (i.e. not getting caught looting the apartment in the middle of the night) I think Sally's on the ball enough that someone claiming to be looking for a serving platter in the middle of the night so they can whip up some fried chicken would have her calling the cops (or running and barricading herself with her brothers) immediately.
posted by mikepop at 7:41 AM on May 20, 2013


"HENRY IS RUNNING FOR OFFICE." Betty Draper-Francis is the Pete Campbell of Betty Drapers.
posted by drezdn at 7:44 AM on May 20, 2013 [6 favorites]


Bob was in the background making sure everyone was hydrated.
posted by drezdn at 7:46 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


I changed my mind - BOB was the drug doctor.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:59 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


I love how at first it seems like Stan is feeding Peggy a total line about his cousin but on rewatch there are all these moments where he's discussing mortality. Michael's line which "flushes a toilet in his head" is something like, "Hey dad, I need a car before I go die in Vietnam."
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:59 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


KEN
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


I feel like we're seeing the backside to The Suitcase, sometimes locking yourself in the office doesn't produce moments of somber reflective creativity, sometimes you just get pages of gibberish and stab Stan in the arm.
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well, at least Stan got laid?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:06 AM on May 20, 2013


My 16 year old looked at me this morning when I dropped her off at school and said "Last night might be some weird dream sequence, right? How do they move the plot forward after that?"

budding writer
posted by readery at 8:07 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Enigmatic Hippie Sex is, of course, the best sex.
posted by The Whelk at 8:08 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Well, at least Stan got laid?

They teased us with hope of Steggy!
posted by sweetkid at 8:09 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don't toy with our hearts, show!
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


In the extended version of this episode that lives in my head we smash cut to Bob and Joan in a diner in the middle of the night.

Joan:
This is good pie.

Bob:
And damn fine coffee.

And we hold the shot of them chewing for a soild minute.
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 AM on May 20, 2013 [9 favorites]


Previews were setting up some kind of Joan/Pete thing which is so CONFUSING.
posted by sweetkid at 8:21 AM on May 20, 2013


What's the deal with Don's interaction with Ted's secretary?
posted by drezdn at 8:32 AM on May 20, 2013


NO JOAN DON'T LET PETE TOUCH YOU HE IS A SLIMEBEAST
posted by palomar at 8:33 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


I can't see Joan and Pete getting together! She knows he's a sleaze. Good grief, he pimped her out to Herb!

They teased us with hope of Steggy!

Am I the only one who really doesn't want to see Peggy and Stan get it on? While Stan's character has come to be one I enjoy and I like that they've gotten to the point of being friends, I don't find him attractive or admirable. Peggy can do better. And I laughed when she told him she didn't like beards — I hate that awful beard of his.
posted by orange swan at 8:33 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'M SO EXCITED!

I'M SO EXCITED!

I'M SO ... SCARED.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:38 AM on May 20, 2013 [7 favorites]


Okay if I don't get a musical episode by the end of this series I'm going to be so hurt. Yer gonna pull Lynchian dream logic on me show, you'd better be prepared to back that shit up.
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's a real beard, though, he gets points for that.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:52 AM on May 20, 2013


I feel like Sally always has to end up hanging around creepy old ladies. Like Ida and Ma Francis.
posted by sweetkid at 8:54 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


They teased us with hope of Steggy!

Am I the only one who really doesn't want to see Peggy and Stan get it on? While Stan's character has come to be one I enjoy and I like that they've gotten to the point of being friends, I don't find him attractive or admirable. Peggy can do better. And I laughed when she told him she didn't like beards — I hate that awful beard of his.


I think he seems like a good guy, and he actually seems like the character most like people I actually know in my real 2013 life - sarcastic hipster bearded creative guys. So I think that's part of it for me.

But I get it - I don't think everyone needs to be on the Steggy train. She probably could do better but won't - she has horrible taste in men generally (Abe is like, OK...). That's actually one of my favorite consistencies about her character.

I do think turning down Stan's advance was the best decision for both of them in that moment. That was a really sweet scene. Overall, Elizabeth Moss was really impressive in this episode. She was the funny voice of reason, empathetic mother figure, creative boss lady, in on the fun, everything when it was needed.
posted by sweetkid at 8:58 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]




Wow, yeah, what the oedipal loving merciful fuck?!

Death, Dr. FeelFood, heart attacks, thieves, pencils thrown into people's arms and feverish manic jibberish--must be Friday night at the ad agency!

Stalkery Don is bizarre. Except he isn't really Don. He has lots of feels.

When exactly did the coldly compartmentalizing Don Draper turn back into poor emo Dick Whitman in the whorehouse ad agency getting beaten by a soup spoon?

I love Ken. He is completely unappreciated in that office. He should marry Bob Benson and have perfectly preppy dancing kids.

I think Sally called Don "Daddy", not Henry, PhoB. she wanted to know when Don was picking them up for the weekend, but Betty had to take them because no one knew where Don was.

Can't believe anyone fell for scary grandma Ida. Hello, I have a purse full of silverware and I am cold reading you to get information. 'Is your Mom still a piece of work' will resonate with ANY teen girl! Good for Sally for being suspicious AND getting free eggs out of the deal.

Bobby is so used to The Crazy he just went along with the whole thing. Grandma's black? Cool. Can we watch TV now?

Stan is like Peggy's brother. Steggy is not going to happen. Peggy was upset when she saw Stan with the girl because she was so disappointed in him for acting like Don would, having meaningless sex rather than dealing with an actual problem. Before that, she saw him as her peer, liked and respected him. Now she will just pity him.

Prediction:

Ted's secretary is Don's daughter by the prostitute with a heart of gold who fed him soup. OR he thinks she is, but she turns out to be the little girl in the picture (the one tacked on to the prostitute's mirror that not-consumptive Dick Whitman saw).

OR, to get really twisted, Don is the baby in the pic, he screwed his Mother and Ted's secretary is their daughter.

Idea: Hey, this new combined agency has way too many letters in its name. Why don't we call the place Alphabet Soup?!
posted by misha at 9:14 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]



I love Ken. He is completely unappreciated in that office. He should marry Bob Benson and have perfectly preppy dancing kids.


*smashes champagne bottle christening the new ship KENSON*
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 AM on May 20, 2013 [8 favorites]


Pretty sure Stan got an Xacto knife to the arm.
posted by purpleclover at 9:20 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Prediction:

Ted's secretary is Don's daughter by the prostitute with a heart of gold who fed him soup. OR he thinks she is, but she turns out to be the little girl in the picture (the one tacked on to the prostitute's mirror that not-consumptive Dick Whitman saw).

OR, to get really twisted, Don is the baby in the pic, he screwed his Mother and Ted's secretary is their daughter.


I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but I thought the "seen you before" stuff with Ted's secretary was just another reflection of how Don sees all women as the same or barely distinguishable.
posted by sweetkid at 9:20 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


yeah, I thought it was a pickup line. Like, he briefly considered seducing Ted's secretary to get back at Ted for his intimacy with Peggy but was too speedy to follow through.
posted by purpleclover at 9:23 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I thought it was like, "Have I slept with you yet?"
posted by Sys Rq at 9:23 AM on May 20, 2013


Ironically, the Mad Men writers were on speed when they wrote this episode.

Betty definitely had the moral high road.

Her hair's blonde again AND she lost the weight? Why was that not more of a process we, the audience, experienced with her? I think that uncertainty about her weight and her looks with Henry's candidacy was teased to death, and now she's back to old pretty Betty with no fanfare at all.

Anyone notice how, for Dick, blonde = maternal figure, while brunette = scolding, distant, withholding love and affection?
posted by misha at 9:24 AM on May 20, 2013


Anyone notice how, for Don, blonde = maternal figure, while brunette = scolding, distant, withholding love and affection?

Doesn't that sort of contradict the previous paragraph?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:25 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]




No, not at all, because in THIS episode, Betty is, surprisingly, the maternal voice of Righteous Indignation.

Everything is turning upside down now that Don is Dick Whitman.
posted by misha at 9:28 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


I meant Dick, not Don, in my original comment. Typo fixed.
posted by misha at 9:30 AM on May 20, 2013


NO FAIR THAT'S CHEATING Yeah okay that makes sense
posted by Sys Rq at 9:31 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


This constant plumbing of Don's past is so ... literal and boring. I would like this show even more if he was a cipher. I think I prefer Don Draper who is the way he is because he is a good-looking, smooth-talking white guy and it is 1959 and he could be. We could have the same gradual spiral into irrelevance with exactly zero whorehouse flashbacks.

Because here's the thing: Don behaves badly, but not significantly worse than any other man on the show. Roger, Pete, they all cheat. They all drink and act like fools and don't respect women. If Don acts this way out of childhood trauma, what makes the rest of them scoundrels and louts?

Ugh, I think I'm arguing that the patriarchy should be a more explicit villain.
posted by purpleclover at 9:52 AM on May 20, 2013 [8 favorites]


I think that's an excellent comment through and through purpleclover.

I think I prefer Don Draper who is the way he is because he is a good-looking, smooth-talking white guy and it is 1959 and he could be. We could have the same gradual spiral into irrelevance with exactly zero whorehouse flashbacks.

Totally agree. I don't think they're going to bring back much Dick Whitman stuff, despite little things like the lighter tossed in here and there, so why do we still need to keep going back to the farmhouse/whorehouse/childhood? It was interesting at first but now definitely getting tired. And that kid doesn't look or act anything like Jon Hamm.
posted by sweetkid at 9:55 AM on May 20, 2013


Man, I think I am the only person who likes the flashbacks. And I really, really do. The kid's acting was perfectly Hamm-esque in the scene before he got laid, I thought.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:18 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I'll give you that. He was at least approaching Hammliness in that scene. I think he's a good actor, they just don't fit together as past/present Don, for me.

It would be better if they included common mannerisms or expressions or something. Not too on the nose, but just something.
posted by sweetkid at 10:23 AM on May 20, 2013


Well, it's sort of the point that they're essentially two completely different people. The kid is Don before Don became Don, ergo not Don.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:31 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


I disagree with that. We're looking to the past to see how Don became how/who he is, and I think it makes sense for there to be a link between the two characters/actors. I think it is there, but could be a bit stronger. Don't think the point is for them to be wholly different.
posted by sweetkid at 10:34 AM on May 20, 2013


It is, though. Isn't it? And we're waiting for the Big Switch.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:37 AM on May 20, 2013


what is?
posted by sweetkid at 10:41 AM on May 20, 2013


The point is.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:46 AM on May 20, 2013


I think I prefer Don Draper who is the way he is because he is a good-looking, smooth-talking white guy and it is 1959 and he could be. We could have the same gradual spiral into irrelevance with exactly zero whorehouse flashbacks.


I totally get this, but the whorehouse upbringing/desertion/identity theft are what differentiates Don Draper from Roger or Pete. Pete and Roger can chug along indefinitely, but Don has been compartmentalizing things for twenty-plus years, and I think we are seeing foreshadowing of Don hitting a breaking point psychologically, where he can't keep on doing what he's been doing. Sylvia calling things off has really knocked him off balance, and it's just going to get worse. He's been relying on "it will shock you how much this never happened" as his coping mechanism. But those things *did* happen, and they will out in the end.
posted by ambrosia at 10:47 AM on May 20, 2013 [3 favorites]


and it's just going to get worse

I'm actually not sure I agree with that. Someone upthread mentioned this might have been Don "hitting bottom" and I find that I (sort of) agree. A few eps ago we had him talking about how much he loves his kids; here we have him telling Sally flat out that he's been working too much, and then actively taking steps to change that.

That, of course, leaves open the question of -- if he hits bottom, where does he go from there? I'm not sure a show about Don Draper, committed family man, would be quite the same.

Also, is this the last season, or isn't it?
posted by anastasiav at 10:50 AM on May 20, 2013


The point is

The point is the point? I'm trying to understand what you're saying here, but I disagree that the only way to look at the whorehouse/Dick Whitman past is that it is intentionally meant to show that Dick and Don are entirely different. If you disagree that's fine.
posted by sweetkid at 10:50 AM on May 20, 2013


Also, is this the last season, or isn't it?

No, one more after this.
posted by sweetkid at 10:51 AM on May 20, 2013


And then the spinoff, "The Life and Loves of Sally Draper."
posted by Chrysostom at 11:01 AM on May 20, 2013 [3 favorites]


Bobby is starting to hold his own this season. "Are we Negroes" was hilarious and perfect timing. And then when Ida leaves he just nonchalantly turns on the TV.

Also, the suitcase conversation at the beginning of the episode with Sally.
"I already packed it, you just have to bring it down." "I have to do EVERYTHING"

Totally me and my brother. Except it wasn't till he was in his 30s that he would eventually do the thing, we would just usually keep arguing until I gave up and did it myself.
posted by sweetkid at 11:10 AM on May 20, 2013


In 20 years they can do "Mad Men: The Next Generation" set in the 80s.
posted by drezdn at 11:10 AM on May 20, 2013


NO NO NO
posted by sweetkid at 11:11 AM on May 20, 2013


Sally Draper, Successful Shoulder Pad Business Lady has a torrid affair with Pete and Peggy's kid who works for her at Serious Bidness Inc.
posted by The Whelk at 11:11 AM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


"I don't have time for this! We have to raise $1 million to restore the Statue of Liberty by next week!"
posted by Chrysostom at 11:14 AM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I'll give you that. He was at least approaching Hammliness in that scene. I think he's a good actor, they just don't fit together as past/present Don, for me.

It would be better if they included common mannerisms or expressions or something. Not too on the nose, but just something.


I noticed one! Aimée asked Dick a question, like "Do you [I forget the rest]?" And instead of saying, "Yes," he said, "I do." That's a very Don thing.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:16 AM on May 20, 2013


yea, I actually thought the 'I do' was the only really Donly thing I picked up in that scene. That's funny.

I think it was 'Do you like girls?'
posted by sweetkid at 11:17 AM on May 20, 2013


I think the thing I love most in this episode is that moment where Don comes bursting into the writers' room with a speed-fueled idea which he is convinced is brilliant, and Peggy calls him out by essentially saying something to the effect of "Do you have an actual idea?"
posted by Dr. Zira at 11:58 AM on May 20, 2013


Aimée?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:00 PM on May 20, 2013


The Vietnam Theory (Slate)
posted by anastasiav at 12:01 PM on May 20, 2013 [4 favorites]


it's just going to get worse. He's been relying on "it will shock you how much this never happened" as his coping mechanism. But those things *did* happen, and they will out in the end.

Yep. You're right. I see it. I am definitely doing the thing Matt Weiner hates about tv-recap culture of picking a spot in the middle of the season and wishing for a bunch of changes even though I don't know where the season is going.

It would be sort of nifty if Don's horrific childhood is his secret superpower. In an age when men were supposed to be stoic, he was the most stoic. As we approach the groovy, emotional '70s, he's gonna get way, way in touch with his emotions. ("I'm feeling a lot of emotions." Indeed.)
posted by purpleclover at 12:02 PM on May 20, 2013


I love the Vietnam theory especially as it does two things the show loves to do 1) Flat out ignore the go-to tropes and scenes for stories set in this time period. and 2) Does that "talking about something through another thing while avoiding the thing you want to talk about altogether." the show loves to pull.
posted by The Whelk at 12:07 PM on May 20, 2013


I'm sure that tapdancing Ken is going to be the gif of the week.

Indeed.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:30 PM on May 20, 2013


Still don't understand why Don was so enamored with Sylvia in the first place, honestly.

So many mistresses that he has just unceremoniously dumped, and then he falls for and marries Megan. And he admonishes Pete about all the sleeping around and says that now that he's found this wonderful woman, he's done. As someone who found the constant parade of women and cheating annoying, I was ready for Don to grow up. Unlike a lot of viewers, I liked Megan the minute she DIDN'T yell at Don's kids for spilling their drinks, and I thought it was a surprisingly un-Donlike move to propose to her, in a good way. He was looking out for his kids, too, for once, and not just thinking about himself, even though he was also incredibly attracted to Megan. It seemed like a win/win move, that he made impulsively, but was actually smart and would pay off for his family in the long run.

And then, boom, next season, he's over Megan, and ready to fall for Sylvia.

He couldn't press that elevator button fast enough to close the door when Sylvia was yelling at her husband, and he seemed over her, but then he got all Fifty Shades of Don, wanting to control her--maybe that was the little kid Dick Whitman who got beaten by the spoon, wanting to be in charge of the situation and have all the power for once. Except he wants to have sex with Sylvia, still, so....ewww. Of course, for Don, sex is power, isn't it?

That whole Don as Dom and now Don as heartbroken little boy (and the really corny stethoscope scene, "it's broken") is just unintelligible and weird right now. Wiener is not at all making me like Don more, or making him more sympathetic, though I'm sure that's the reason for all the flashbacks.
posted by misha at 12:37 PM on May 20, 2013


I don't think the flashbacks are meant to evoke sympathy so much as understanding.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:40 PM on May 20, 2013 [3 favorites]


Don doesn't want Sylvia per say, he wants what he can't have.
posted by The Whelk at 12:48 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


No relevance to anything anyone's saying right now, but I'm watching the episode again and it looks like the office where they all get the injections is Roger's (we see his name on the door). Looks like he's moved on from the declarative mod zone that Jane engineered for him, even though he did have all the old furniture hauled up there in time to fire Burt.
posted by thesmallmachine at 12:49 PM on May 20, 2013


Don doesn't want Sylvia per say, he wants what he can't have.

Hmm. Have any of the other mistresses (besides Bobbie) been married? I think they've all been single, at least the main ones (not one offs like the stewardess): Rachel, Midge, the teacher...
posted by sweetkid at 12:51 PM on May 20, 2013


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Ted is in Roger's old office.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:53 PM on May 20, 2013


So Sylvia reminds him of this blond hooker from the past and that's why he likes her?

Which is interesting, because do you know who Aimee the blond hooker reminded me of?

Betty.

(Not just due to blondness. Mainly due to her penchant for little boys. Though for all we know Aimee the blond hooker is 17.)
posted by Sara C. at 12:54 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Mainly due to her penchant for little boys.


Oh that's cold!
posted by sweetkid at 12:56 PM on May 20, 2013


You know, I never thought that Betty was at all, in any way, actually predatory toward Glenn, for all their relationship was inappropriate.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:00 PM on May 20, 2013 [4 favorites]


I just saw the episode and the more I think about it, the more I don't like the Grandma Ida plotline. Your show is already getting criticism for its handling of race issues and you go ahead and throw a "white family gets robbed blind by large black woman" story in there? I mean, really?
posted by fight or flight at 1:01 PM on May 20, 2013


I never thought that Betty was at all, in any way, actually predatory toward Glenn, for all their relationship was inappropriate.

Yeah, me either. I thought it was weird people kept referring to Glen as "Betty's boyfriend." It was inappropriate, but I thought she just wanted a friend and was having trouble with the boundaries.
posted by sweetkid at 1:03 PM on May 20, 2013


I just saw the episode and the more I think about it, the more I don't like the Grandma Ida plotline. Your show is already getting criticism for its handling of race issues and you go ahead and throw a "white family gets robbed blind by large black woman" story in there? I mean, really?

I agree, but I think Weiner has been pretty gross the whole series about his treatment of race and often adds black characters just to ridicule them. In this case, I let it slide slightly because the woman being black made the "grandma" thing more ludicrous yet the scene played it so confusingly explainable - Sally doesn't know anything about Don, even less than we do, so he could have been raised by a black nanny much like Betty was - but overall I agree with your point. Also she was such a stereotype, with the way she talked and "gimme some sugar" and making fried chicken. Yuck. The actress playing Ida was great though. Such a sinister edge from such a superficially nonthreatening looking person.
posted by sweetkid at 1:14 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Kind of a derail, but I'm holed up in a parking garage waiting for a tornado to pass by the highway where I need to drive. What would Betty Draper do in this situation?
posted by Dr. Zira at 1:21 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


the episode where Number 6 is coerced into running for office

Is it just me or is this episode all about coercion?

Note that I am only just now reading comments and someone has probably said this, and/or it's probably in the T&Lo recap but:

- Ken in the car being coerced into all kinds of dangerous shit, people covering his eyes, flashing around guns, etc.

- Chevy's draconian schedule for the next three years.

- Sally being all "GO UPSTAIRS AND GET THE SUITCASE NOW", and her conversation with Betty wrt babysitting her brothers ("you're not a hired hand")

- All the sex in this episode, obvs. I think Stan and Wendy are even taking advantage of each other, if that's possible.

- Don trying to coerce Sylvia into seeing him/talking to him.

- Harry Hamlin guy being all like "ok get in there and take some meth you don't need to know what it is just bend over"

- Stan trying to get the other creative to arm wrestle him. And the other guy being like "duh no you're like twice as big as me".

- Even the oatmeal ad is like "you know what's best for your kid". Not kids love oatmeal or providing a healthy breakfast is important. You Know What He Needs.

- Dick's stepmother bossing the hookers around wrt Dick's sickness and telling Dick where to sleep.

- The entire Grandma Ida subplot. I especially thought there was an intended comparison between Grandma Ida demanding that Sally "come over here and give me some sugar" and the Dick/Aimee subplot and probably the Stan/Wendy thing too. The episode seems to be asking a question of whether it's really force if it's presented as being about love/affection/something the coerced person theoretically wants.
posted by Sara C. at 1:22 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Betty Draper is the tornado.
posted by fight or flight at 1:22 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


My initial thought on Grandma Ida was that she was cynically playing a character for Sally, but I'm not sure how far we can trust creator intent there.
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:25 PM on May 20, 2013


That tornado has VERY BAD MANNERS.
posted by mynameisluka at 1:27 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Wendy ---> Peter Pan

Also

Everyone knows it's Windy.
posted by Sara C. at 1:27 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is it just me or is this episode all about coercion?

Not really. I see your Ken point as coercion and some of the sex examples (the blond hooker/Aimee in particular) but not the rest as much and definitely not the Sally suitcase thing because look she packed it already and all he had to do was go and get it but instead of even saying no he does ridiculous time wasting things like ask the baby to go get it which is obviously not going to happen and it's just a stupid power play when you could in fact just be helpful and then it ends with a jab about how his sister is controlling/he has to do everything which what is she supposed to do if he needs to be nagged into doing every little thing otherwise it won't get done (like I said I saw my own family dynamics in this scene).
posted by sweetkid at 1:27 PM on May 20, 2013


And while I get the point of Sally not really knowing anything about Don's past and that this woman could con her under somewhat more normal circumstances (i.e. not getting caught looting the apartment in the middle of the night) I think Sally's on the ball enough that someone claiming to be looking for a serving platter in the middle of the night so they can whip up some fried chicken would have her calling the cops (or running and barricading herself with her brothers) immediately.

I thought about this during the episode.

I think for kids now, or kids of Our Generation, yes this would be obvious. Because we were all raised with Stranger Danger.

But I'm pretty sure the whole Stranger Danger phenomenon is because of things that happened around this time. And I think that kids of Sally's generation were more taught that you should be polite and respectful to grownups. If a man in a balaclava had broken in and tried to tie her up, Sally would know what to do. But because the robber is a kindly older woman who specifically invokes Sally being rude/not respecting her "betters", it plays right into that "trust grownups" thing.

For instance I was surprised that Megan didn't give Sally the standard (to me) Babysitting Your Siblings speech: keep all doors locked at all times, do not answer the door to anyone, do not tell anyone that we aren't home, trust no one, and no cooking on the stove or using sharp knives.

I mean I think she is probably old enough to be doing this (at her age I was, even in the generation of Stranger Danger), but the lack of "let's talk about what you would do in X scary situation" surprised me.
posted by Sara C. at 1:33 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


Since Weiner tends to pull actual occurences in to his plots, I thought the Grandma Ida thing was so crazy (in an otherwise staid and normal installment, right?) that it must be based on a real life thing; something pulled from the news. Maybe some tenants maid in a luxury hi-rise went off the rails and took advantage of an insider's knowledge of unlocked back entrances.

I'd really be interested in knowing, because this level of crazy was just icing on the cake.
posted by readery at 1:36 PM on May 20, 2013


The episode seems to be asking a question of whether it's really force if it's presented as being about love/affection/something the coerced person theoretically wants.

I think this nails it.

(Which is, again, a very Prisoner-esque idea, particularly as it plays out in Sally's encounter with Grandma Ida -- who can enter her house at will, who claims to slot right into place among the authority figures in her life, who says that she has her best interests at heart if Sally would only be trusting and offer her some love, and who casually thwarts Sally's efforts to escape without breaking character. Grandma Ida is the new Number 2.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:37 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]




Yes. YES. I still don't understand how people continue to downplay Mad Men's shitty treatment of race.
posted by sweetkid at 1:42 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


BTW does anyone think that the winning idea is something that Peggy said while the dudes were free associating?

"Where do you want to go?"
posted by Sara C. at 1:42 PM on May 20, 2013 [3 favorites]


From purpleclover's link on Ida:

Grandma Ida bugged the holy hell out of me not simply because she’s a black criminal—although a rich-looking white woman burglar would have been way creepier. It bugs me because her appearance underscores that the portrait of this world is incomplete. So why make her black at all? Why tease us with skin color, as if this great simmering issue will finally be addressed, only to retreat again? Why is this great and lingering theme in American culture not addressed as fully as the show addresses, say, capitalism, or gender?

I think the show doesn't address race as fully because Matt Weiner doesn't care about it, but in that case the teasing is really frustrating and offensive and I agree, it's teasing.
posted by sweetkid at 1:51 PM on May 20, 2013


You know, I never thought that Betty was at all, in any way, actually predatory toward Glenn, for all their relationship was inappropriate.

FWIW I didn't mean that Betty wanted to have sex with Glenn.

But there's a similarity between the way Betty relates to Glenn and the way Aimee relates to Dick. I think Aimee feels an affection for Dick and wants to give him whatever she has to give. Which is sex. I think Betty feels a similar affection for Glenn and wants to give him what she has to give. Which is a pretty princess to idolize.

I think both women are damaged and immature and unable to relate to these boys in a grownup-to-child way.

(Again, with the caveat that it's possible that Dick and Aimee aren't really that far apart in age.)
posted by Sara C. at 1:56 PM on May 20, 2013


"He's gonna look like St. Sebastian,"

St. Sebastian is the patron saint of soldiers and Stan looks like he's facing a firing squad.
posted by The Whelk at 2:01 PM on May 20, 2013


it's just a stupid power play

Exactly.

Though I think that example doesn't fit with my "is it coercion if the thing the coercer wants to give you is something you theoretically want".
posted by Sara C. at 2:02 PM on May 20, 2013


I think that makes sense Sara C. But I don't think the show is trying to say that Aimee is like Betty, i think she's supposed to be like Sylvia, though I don't see that at all.

I also saw one of the reviews mention that Sylvia is like all "nightmare housewife" at home -housecoat, yelling, "come get cold pazz" but this seemed new to the episode, not like what she's been like the whole time.

Does anyone have ideas on why thin Betty was debuted in this episode? Just to underscore that Henry is running for office or any other reason? It does seem like some of her (slight) empathy as Fat Betty is gone, although she still just disengages from Sally rather than continuing to fight with her or trying to control her, which I think is an interesting departure from their previous relationship now that Sally is a teenager.
posted by sweetkid at 2:02 PM on May 20, 2013




i think she's supposed to be like Sylvia, though I don't see that at all.

The only resemblance I see to Sylvia is Sylvia as she is in that weird little moment a few episodes back where she's in a kimono and pincurls asking her husband for money.

In that moment she looks a lot like Aimee when she's mothering Dick, and also a lot like the woman in the oatmeal ad.

YOU KNOW WHAT HE NEEDS
posted by Sara C. at 2:06 PM on May 20, 2013


I think the episode is about coercion - and in two scenes specifically, it's about consent. I think Aimee raped Don - and then later they were both punished for it, Aimee was kicked out and Don was beaten. It's a heavy-handed way to remind us of the way Don sees sex - it's always a power play to some degree. And to counter-balance that scene that lacked consent, we have the Steggy scene where Stan tries to talk Peggy into something more, but he has a great deal of respect for her and she tells him no - and that's it. He compliments her ass, she thanks him. It's lovely. (And then the question of how old the girl was that Stan slept with? If she was underage, she lacks the ability to consent in the eyes of the law. I'm just not sure the show would do that. But I can't remember how old she was supposed to be.)
posted by crossoverman at 2:07 PM on May 20, 2013


I feel like it's a bit more obtuse. Sylvia is the entire concept of an older woman (whether she's actually older than him or not), the mothering type who walks the line between mama and hooker. Don is exploring his taboos and his deep ingrained preferences through a woman who's expressly not his.
posted by mynameisluka at 2:08 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


And then the question of how old the girl was that Stan slept with? If she was underage, she lacks the ability to consent in the eyes of the law. I'm just not sure the show would do that. But I can't remember how old she was supposed to be.

I don't think it's ever said how old she is. Though Stan is fucked up enough that I don't think either of them could consent.

I didn't get the impression that she was explicitly "underage", though it's likely she's meant to be 16 or 17. She's young enough that her mother is upset that she was there. (Does her mother know exactly what went down, or is she just upset that she was on the premises at all?)
posted by Sara C. at 2:11 PM on May 20, 2013


I doubt her mom knew about the Stan Sex.
posted by sweetkid at 2:29 PM on May 20, 2013


Agreed.

Pretty sure Harry Hamlin was like "I'll give you a ride home" and then she didn't turn up till the next day and that was what that phone call was about.

Not so much like, "my twelve year old just got raped" or whatever people might be imagining.
posted by Sara C. at 2:31 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ugh, just looking at T&Lo now, actually having done a lot of work today, and some of the comments are ugh (not T&Lo's, the reader comments). There's so much "I'm white and like fried chicken, therefore Ida is not offensive." Although some do make the point that Ida was putting on the stereotype as a character. I dunno that's vaguely interesting but I still see it as the show perpetuating crappy stereotypes.
posted by sweetkid at 2:38 PM on May 20, 2013


Hmm I've had issues with T&Lo all season but really like this bit about Betty from the recap:

Besides, it gave Betty the opportunity to pay Megan back for this scene, and on that level, we couldn’t help but cheer a little that Betty got her mojo back, and by that we don’t mean her weight loss necessarily. She’s clearly back to the polished Betty of the Ossining years; putting the effort in because she gets to be a trophy wife again. Standing in her kitchen, she was more made up and accessorized than we’ve seen her in several seasons. And because she has her armor back on and a husband that excites her again (“HENRY IS RUNNING FOR OFFICE, DON! DID YOU HEAR ME SAY THAT? DID YOU HEAR THAT PART ABOUT MY SUCCESSFUL, IMPORTANT HUSBAND?”) she’s got something that can pass for self-confidence to take the place of that mousey, Weight Watchers-attending, Mama Francis-lite version of herself. She had every reason to be angry at both Don and Megan, even if the primary responsibility for the kids rests on Don. On the other hand, there was definitely a sense of triumph in her fury, but like we said, we really can’t blame her for it.
posted by sweetkid at 2:41 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


To me it's yet another instance where Mad Men isn't the absolute worst on race that any television show could possibly be, and then everyone sort of issues a sigh of relief and congratulates them on that. Like any black character who isn't a blatant offensive minstrel should win Matt Weiner a pat on the back.

I, for one, buy the idea that the woman plays into the whole magical negro let me make you some eggs stereotype on purpose, to assure Sally that she's no threat.

But I also don't think that lets the show off the hook. If it was just this episode, and every other aspect of the show was completely unproblematic, I'd probably be OK with it, but it really seems like we only see black people as servants or criminals.

Except for Dawn, who is OK, and they've given her a few interesting little moments, but seriously, that's all? You want a cookie because you have one black minor recurring character who you portray in a somewhat acceptable manner most of the time?

I'm again reminded of the memo from NBC executives to the Star Trek production team in 1966 practically BEGGING them to cast non-white people on the show in non-stereotypical roles, and the result being that the production team actually did and it was good and none of them were even maids or ninjas or anything.
posted by Sara C. at 2:45 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I agree with all of that Sara C.


I'm again reminded of the memo from NBC executives to the Star Trek production team in 1966 practically BEGGING them to cast non-white people on the show in non-stereotypical roles, and the result being that the production team actually did and it was good and none of them were even maids or ninjas or anything.


I didn't know about that - that's neat.
posted by sweetkid at 2:50 PM on May 20, 2013


If she was underage, she lacks the ability to consent in the eyes of the law. I'm just not sure the show would do that. But I can't remember how old she was supposed to be.)

I think if you look at it through the characters eyes, even if she was, say, 15, in the mores of the time it was not a huge deal. A deal, certainly, but there were plenty of 14 and 15 year old drop outs (of both genders) in the counterculture who were having sex with much older folks and nary an eyelash was batted. Mary Ann Vecchio (the keening woman in the famous Kent State photo), for example, was 14 and a runaway when that photo was taken, and (not saying she had sex with anyone in particular) she's not at all an unusual type in the time period.

Much like other somewhat shocking things in the show (for some reason the post-picnic littering comes to mind) the ethics of it were very different to them than to us.
posted by anastasiav at 2:53 PM on May 20, 2013


I don't know if I'm entirely willing to chalk it up to "it was a different time", but I will say that the sex isn't really presented as a positive thing.

It's not like Damn, that Stan sure is a stud pulling that hot little hippie chick. It's more like two people fucking their way through grief while a drugged out dude watches, but not even sexually, just like "oh."
posted by Sara C. at 2:59 PM on May 20, 2013 [3 favorites]


I just saw the episode and the more I think about it, the more I don't like the Grandma Ida plotline. Your show is already getting criticism for its handling of race issues and you go ahead and throw a "white family gets robbed blind by large black woman" story in there? I mean, really?

I really enjoyed this episode for the most part, but hated the "Grandma Ida" bit as well. The questionable racial elements didn't help, but more generally I just find most "children in peril" plotlines fairly manipulative and over the top. Thankfully they didn't go too extreme in this direction or this episode could have potentially reached That's My Dog levels of shark jumping.
posted by The Gooch at 5:12 PM on May 20, 2013


Thankfully they didn't go too extreme in this direction or this episode could have potentially reached That's My Dog levels of shark jumping.

I will fight you! That's My Dog is an amazing episode of television.

But, obviously, they went in a direction where the audience wasn't too worried about Sally - it just needed to be enough that there was an intruder, an almost innocuous threat that highlighted the fact that Don had left the door open and left his children at risk. (The race stuff is icky, though.)
posted by crossoverman at 5:49 PM on May 20, 2013


Yeah, I didn't think the kids were in that much danger, really. I mean, existential "traumatic thing to happen to a kid" danger, sure, but not like Sally Is Hospitalized After Being Clobbered By Deranged Murderer level danger.
posted by Sara C. at 6:28 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


That's one of the things that was so brilliant about the scene. It was funny, but scary. Scary, but not Violence Will Break Out scary. Watching it again it's like, of COURSE she was a burglar. The whole thing was so disorienting though it threw me off.

Also Sara C. I think I got the Capitalizing Words Is a Thing thing from you.
posted by sweetkid at 6:34 PM on May 20, 2013


I was reading you guys'seseses live-commentary earlier today (after finishing the episode) and COULD NOT figure out why you guys weren't parsing Grandma Ida.

Maybe it's all those cynical years working on a crime show that has made me afraid to trust.
posted by Sara C. at 6:40 PM on May 20, 2013


I don't know on rewatch I felt kinda dumb I didn't get it earlier. I'm not sure how it happened.
posted by sweetkid at 6:46 PM on May 20, 2013


T&L: And in the harsh light of day, as we’re treating our hangovers, this one just doesn’t hold up well to scrutiny.

As so often lately, I entirely disagree with T&L. Episodes of other shows that are flashier or different (especially to the extreme), usually don't hold up to scrutiny. But this episode feels like I'm getting more out of it the more I think about it.

I mean, the Grandma Ida thing on the surface just seems like an oddball story to engage Sally in - but it's so much about Don being neglectful of his family while he works or cheats on Megan - or a combination of both. This episode wasn't just about his creativity with Chevy, it was a breakdown of how he might pitch himself to Sylvia - and when he lost that touch he's always had.

And T&L's continual moaning about Don Draper is just tiresome. I don't need them to like him, I don't particularly like him myself. But I am fascinated by him still. Especially if this is him hitting rock bottom, ie. "The Crash" as it were. But all T&L focus on is the repetitive nature of his story - which is the key to his story, he needs to keep tapdancing, it's his job, it's his life because if he doesn't keep tapdancing, he might end up being Dick Whitman again. And nobody likes Dick Whitman.
posted by crossoverman at 7:38 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


it's so much about Don being neglectful of his family

Also about the fact that his kids know so little of him that a middle aged black woman could wander into the house, claim to be their grandmother, and the kids' biggest reaction is, "Are we negroes?" In a not even all that surprised way.
posted by Sara C. at 7:40 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


By the way I think we should start a pool on when Sally finds out about Dick.

My vote is this season finale, or possibly in the early episodes of next season.
posted by Sara C. at 7:42 PM on May 20, 2013


I thought Sally already sort of knew about Dick. Don took the kids to Anna's house when they were in California, and she saw the "Anna + Dick" painted in the corner, and the subject came up again in Season 5, when she was working on a family tree for school.
posted by peppermind at 7:50 PM on May 20, 2013


She knows about Anna, who she thinks was our Don's first wife - and, of course, she was the real Don Draper's wife. She and Dick (our Don) were never married. So Sally obviously doesn't know that her father isn't really Don Draper.
posted by crossoverman at 7:58 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I think Don just explained Anna as his first marriage. And explained Dick as a nickname people sometimes used for him.
posted by sweetkid at 8:03 PM on May 20, 2013


WHY DID I WAIT UNTIL NOW TO WATCH THIS EPISODE

I could have experienced it with everyone else, it could have been a happening. I have to rewatch it right now while catching up on the thread.

After I pour myself a drink. Maybe call my doctor, get fixed up.
posted by rewil at 8:08 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


We do it every week, it's awesome, East Coast style, usually The Whelk is there.
posted by sweetkid at 8:16 PM on May 20, 2013


Usually I watch it live, but Sunday I got caught up in videogames LIKE A FOOL.

So from the way Cutler and the two new creative guys acted, this was a way of dealing with big projects that CGC's used before? Ted and Gleason too, maybe? I'd kill to see those flashbacks.
posted by rewil at 8:28 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


Harry Crane was in this episode.
posted by rewil at 8:30 PM on May 20, 2013 [3 favorites]


Hovering around the hippie chick, of course.
posted by Sara C. at 8:35 PM on May 20, 2013 [2 favorites]


They have archives from the Sterling Cooper era? Wouldn't they be gone with the Brits in the season three turnover? I guess they could have been copies saved for a personal portfolio.
posted by rewil at 9:02 PM on May 20, 2013


They would definitely have gotten copies of as much as possible.
posted by sweetkid at 9:10 PM on May 20, 2013


Stan fucked a 14-year-old whose dad just died?

Don't know about the 14yo part, but... yeah. And Cutler was watching! Ew, that man is a pig. I was completely icked out when it was revealed she was Gleason's kid. Cutler's probably known her since she was born! He comes away from his long-time colleague's funeral and hides behind a door to watch the daughter get it on with Stan? What a CREEP.
posted by torticat at 10:30 PM on May 20, 2013 [1 favorite]


drezdn: "Wait, what did Don do that was exceptionally reprehensible this episode?"

Things like the stalking of Sylvia, and his sense of entitlement when talking to her on the phone ("I know you want to see me too."). That he's not really good at his job, and the lashing out at Ken. Maybe it's the contrast with Ted that makes my resentment more acute. Or maybe after so many seasons, it's just the accumulation of his unchanging ways that gets old. His character has become annoying to me in a way that, for example, Pete doesn't despite being reprehensible in his own right.
posted by moody cow at 1:33 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


To say nothing of expecting Megan to cancel her plans when he has to work, and putting his kids in danger.
posted by dry white toast at 3:55 AM on May 21, 2013


Agreed! Even though I'm not a fan of Megan, I loved her for not abandoning her plans to accommodate Don that night, even at the expense of the children. They're his kids, not hers. Good for you, Megan.
posted by moody cow at 4:09 AM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


I am so sad I missed this discussion when it first occurred. I am deliriously happy to find out I'm not the only person filled with blind Betty-hate and who feels there's more depth and complexity and motivations to her character than "BUT SHE'S A BITCH."
posted by Anonymous at 6:20 AM on May 21, 2013


Not to worry schroedinger, I could talk about Betty's complexities over and over again, no problem.

I loved her for not abandoning her plans to accommodate Don that night, even at the expense of the children. They're his kids, not hers. Good for you, Megan.

I understood Megan's point of view, and I'm not a kid of divorce, but 'not her kids' strikes me as really weird. Is that how stepparents talk about their spouses' children? I thought she was having an argument similar to everyday parents' discussions about who promised what and who is doing what, and also similar to Betty/Don's. I don't think EITHER Megan or Don should really have left the kids alone (though I agree, like all things Betty, her indignation was a mix of honest fear for her children plus sticking it to Don/Megan) but I didn't see it as Megan being like "these aren't even MY kids."

I think that would be kinda gross. They're kids.
posted by sweetkid at 7:37 AM on May 21, 2013 [4 favorites]


At first I thought we were going to have a wacky subplot where Sylvia babysat Don's kids.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:01 AM on May 21, 2013 [6 favorites]


On rewatch - something really underlined Don's gross tire-fire behavior - Megan's on the phone saying how she stayed home last night to watch the kids but she has this thing to go to and you said you'd be here - Don apologies and says he'll be home soon, it's hard and he's working late, etc, etc - Megan says fine, offers to make the kids some food, they decline, she figures hey Sally is 14 they can be left alone for an hour without burning the place down and Don said he'd be home soon - and then Don comes home, listens to the radio in Sylvia's kitchen through the maid's door, and then leaves to go back to the office without checking in on the kids - It hadn't really hit me the first time I saw it but daaaaaaaaaamn. Don is such a dick.
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 AM on May 21, 2013 [13 favorites]


and then leaves to go back to the office without checking in on the kids - It hadn't really hit me the first time I saw it but daaaaaaaaaamn. Don is such a dick.

Yeah. I noticed that.

But hey let's talk about how BETTY sucks as a parent, ya know (most people, not Whelk).
posted by sweetkid at 8:22 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


Megan says fine, offers to make the kids some food, they decline, she figures hey Sally is 14 they can be left alone for an hour without burning the place down and Don said he'd be home soon

Yeah, that's a good point, she didn't know he'd be gone all night. Megan off the hook on this one.
posted by sweetkid at 8:27 AM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


But Megan, as always, apologizes to DON for not being there for the kids. I haven't gotten around to a rewatch, bit that stuck out Sunday night.

I don't think Don would be happy in a marriage with anyone who wasn't a good match for his ugly, dark interior life. Megan is 'too good'.
posted by readery at 8:32 AM on May 21, 2013


Oh, yes:
- I thought Megan was going to call Sylvia to sit.
- I yelled through the TV at Don not going to the apartment.
- I thought Grandma Ida was looking for the other Don Draper.
posted by purpleclover at 8:37 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


Eh, I think blaming herself is basically a political move, as far as she knows, he's working so hard at his Big Important Job that he collapsed from exhaustion ( and " dehydration" if this was taking place today). Even if she does suspect something or want to blame him, now is not the time to bring it up.

Interestingly enough, Betty does chew him out for it, I think she's been saving up that speech for a while " work?! Is that where he says he is?"

Betty just threw a Molotov cocktail in the Draper marriage and no one blinked.
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 AM on May 21, 2013 [6 favorites]


Interestingly enough, Betty does chew him out for it, I think she's been saving up that speech for a while " work?! Is that where he says he is?"

Betty just threw a Molotov cocktail in the Draper marriage and no one blinked.


Haha! Yes. Nice catch. Most of the recaps haven't even mentioned Betty, besides T&Lo.

I thought Henry's "this isn't the time or place" to Betty's fury was sort of funny because, it was exactly the time and place.
posted by sweetkid at 8:44 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


Interestingly enough, Betty does chew him out for it, I think she's been saving up that speech for a while " work?! Is that where he says he is?"

What are the odds that this specific time, Don actually has been at work. (Okay, he's been at work planning the most innovative "take me back" campaign for his mistress, but he was technically at work.)
posted by gladly at 8:50 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think Henry just didn't want to hash it out in front of the kids, something Betty has no problem with.
posted by readery at 8:50 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


Or in front of the cops -- that the wife of one of the mayor's top aides says the city is disgusting probably wouldn't be great. Though she's at least excused by the circumstances.
posted by rewil at 8:54 AM on May 21, 2013


Man, the home invasion motifs have been thick and fast and these last two seasons - nowhere is saaaaafe.
posted by The Whelk at 8:56 AM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Trying to work out how much resonance there is between Don's and Ginsberg's conception of the bargain that advertising relies on and Grandma Ida's MO. It's not explicit - she's not offering any entertainment - but Don and Ginsberg were all hyped up on getting a foot in the door, and she was all about finding her way in through an open door and spinning a bunch of bullshit stories as she worked for her own gain.
posted by COBRA! at 8:58 AM on May 21, 2013 [5 favorites]


sweetkid: "But hey let's talk about how BETTY sucks as a parent, ya know (most people, not Whelk)."

I think that's because, at this point, Don isn't their parent. The kids are biologically his, but he plays only the tiniest role in their lives. Henry is their dad, for all intents and purposes.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:01 AM on May 21, 2013



Or in front of the cops -- that the wife of one of the mayor's top aides says the city is disgusting probably wouldn't be great. Though she's at least excused by the circumstances.


Yeah, that's kind of what I mean, Henry was shushing Betty for political purposes, not just to be a good guy.

I think that's because, at this point, Don isn't their parent. The kids are biologically his, but he plays only the tiniest role in their lives. Henry is their dad, for all intents and purposes.


Don has been off the hook the whole series for bad parenting. And honestly, I realized watching this episode that Betty is the only person we really ever SEE parenting a minor child on this show. We never see Tammy Campbell or Harry and Jennifer with their spawn. Don is absent, Megan is a "friend" for Sally, Henry stays out of things. For better or worse, Betty is doing actual parenting here.
posted by sweetkid at 9:09 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


There's also Joan's mom (who's name I can't remember), and to a lesser extent Joan, with Kevin. Right?
posted by .kobayashi. at 9:18 AM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Man, the home invasion motifs have been thick and fast and these last two seasons - nowhere is saaaaafe.

I had forgotten about the Christmas break-in chez Francis. That time, eggs were left in Bobby's bed. This time, the burglar cooked eggs for Sally. There is clearly a single criminal mastermind behind these events.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:19 AM on May 21, 2013 [4 favorites]


We don't really see Kevin, either. And I mentioned a parent of a minor child - we see other parents - Pete's mom, Henry's mom, Roger. But that's different.
posted by sweetkid at 9:20 AM on May 21, 2013


I See those egg board creeps got to you too!
posted by The Whelk at 9:21 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


Betty just threw a Molotov cocktail in the Draper marriage and no one blinked.

Seriously.

But, then again, maybe not? Megan has actually witnessed Don actually working late, and even if she hears "working late" as a euphemism, she could just think it's in reference to his drinking and passing out in the office. As far as she knows, Don's a serial monogamist (right? I'd have to go way back and rewatch to confirm, but I'm pretty sure she's completely in the dark about his previous affairs), and since she's pretty much only ever seen Betty yelling, she may well assume that that's just what Betty is like, so of course Don would DTMFA. Plus he was crazy jealous when Megan kissed that guy in the soap opera, so obviously he takes marital vows very seriously, and so on.

But "on the casting couch"? Don knows full well what that means.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:28 AM on May 21, 2013 [3 favorites]


Oh my god. I can't believe I never connected "Vincent Price's Egg Magic" to Egghead until just now.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:29 AM on May 21, 2013


and then Don comes home, listens to the radio in Sylvia's kitchen through the maid's door, and then leaves to go back to the office without checking in on the kids - It hadn't really hit me the first time I saw it but daaaaaaaaaamn. Don is such a dick.

One thing I was unclear on there was: when did he shave? At the office? He's got a 5-o'clock-the-next-day shadow right before he leaves, but then he's beardless outside Sylvia's apartment, but it doesn't seem like he could have done that at home. I'm guessing he probably has a whole night-time kit at the office for exactly this kind of scenario, though.
posted by invitapriore at 10:10 AM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


I will fight you! That's My Dog is an amazing episode of television.

Oh wow, I didn't make the connection until just now, but yes--that and this episode gave me the same sort of sinking-stomach-pit feeling, which means they're doing something very right. (And to those earlier who brought up Claire's drug trip in the Six Feet Under pilot w/r/t this episode, the parallels really are uncanny. Jeez, maybe Sally should hop into a convertible in the finale and drive out to California.)

Gleason's daughter was pretty upbeat, with her father just passing away and all. Goes straight from the funeral to throwing the I Ching and fucking Stan.

I think in a distraught state I'd prefer those activities to a lot of the alternatives.
posted by psoas at 10:12 AM on May 21, 2013


I will fight you! That's My Dog is an amazing episode of television

I see both sides to the shark jumping vs great television debate re: That's My Dog. I have the whole Six Feet Under series so might need to rewatch. When I was first watching the series (10 years ago?) my TV critic skills weren't as finely honed as they are here in the Mad Men era.
posted by sweetkid at 10:21 AM on May 21, 2013


Megan knows about his adulterous past. They spent an episode addressing it in Season 5. But I think Megan also knows Don's work full well enough (both from her time as a copywriter and as his secretary) to know that working late is often legit.

I don't think Don and Megan considered Betty's dig very much because she's tried over and over to stir things up.

However, that aside, in Betty's shoes I'd be just as furious as she was and would be seriously considering legal proceedings to deny Don future access. Imagine what the responses would be to an AskMe along the lines of "ex-husband had the kids this weekend, left them alone all night with a door unlocked and someone came in and robbed them"! But I agree that Megan mostly gets a pass on the whole thing. Wife and I both laughed derisively when Don said to Sally on the phone "I just wanted to let you know I'm okay" at the end of the episode. Gee, dad. That's swell.

Peggy is probably feeling like an abuse survivor at this point.
posted by dry white toast at 10:52 AM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


Well, no one listens to Betty, ever, so it's likely everyone brushed off her 'is that where he tells you he is?' comment, but it was still a righteously awesome thing to say.

Also:

Don said to Sally on the phone "I just wanted to let you know I'm okay" at the end of the episode. Gee, dad. That's swell.


Yeah. He really was the lowest of the low in this episode, with coming home to eavesdrop on Sylvia but not going to his apartment, leaving the kids to get robbed, and then the half assed conversation with Sally. Her reaction was pretty "that's swell Dad" too.
posted by sweetkid at 11:04 AM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


i think she's supposed to be like Sylvia, though I don't see that at all.

The only resemblance I see to Sylvia is Sylvia as she is in that weird little moment a few episodes back where she's in a kimono and pincurls asking her husband for money.


I KNOW WHAT YOU NEED AND IT IS A MOLE.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:16 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


He really was the lowest of the low in this episode

As someone else mentioned, it's harder to get any lower than Ser Cutler in this ep.

Bringing your dead partner's daughter to an office full of cranked-up men and then secretly watching as she gets fucked? Eek.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:24 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh, like YOU'VE never done that.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:27 PM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


He really was the lowest of the low in this episode

As someone else mentioned, it's harder to get any lower than Ser Cutler in this ep.


Well, I meant for Don. I wasn't trying to start a "Who's the worst person in the Mad Men world" contest because that could go on forever.
posted by sweetkid at 12:28 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Not to mention it was Cutler's doctor that drugged everyone.
posted by dry white toast at 12:32 PM on May 21, 2013


"Who's the worst person in the Mad Men world" contest

It's like 'The Wire'--you grade on a curve based on screen time.
posted by box at 12:38 PM on May 21, 2013


Cutler's a soulless idiot, like a ramped up more narcissistic, less witty Roger. He's a caricature of an Account Manager and agency partner.
posted by sweetkid at 12:42 PM on May 21, 2013


Mmmm, I'm not sure I am ready to go all in on that, just because we've seen so little of Cutler yet. He's definitely Roger-esque, and agree that the Wendy Gleason thing was ultra-skeevy. But I don't know that he's been revealed as an idiot at this point - I don't have a good feel for his abilities as an acct mgr/partner.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:02 PM on May 21, 2013


He reminds me of Andy Warhol for some reason.
posted by The Whelk at 3:06 PM on May 21, 2013


Cutler's a soulless idiot, like a ramped up more narcissistic, less witty Roger. He's a caricature of an Account Manager and agency partner.

Mad Men doesn't do too many caricatures, especially if they are recurring characters. He's a partner, so (unless he gets killed or bought out in a twist1) I'm sure he'll eventually get some context that redeems a little.

1 Harry Hamlin has to be knocking on anything that resembles wood right now. Look at what he's done since L.A. Law. Lookit.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:18 PM on May 21, 2013


Just so long as he stays away from that Veronica Mars kid.
posted by The Whelk at 3:24 PM on May 21, 2013 [3 favorites]


Matthew Weiner has said that this season is about Dr. Arnold Rosen telling Don, "People will do anything to alleviate their anxiety," so I think we are supposed to see the actions in this weird, trippy episode in that light. I guess Weiner jist wants us to accept that everyone was so traumatized by death and stressed by the Chevy campaign pressure that they were all over the top.

Frankly, I feel like Weiner often does more harm than good as producer; what he thinks we should be feeling regarding the characters and what I actually feel are usually worlds apart. The best episodes seem, to me, to be the ones Jon Hamm directs.

The actress who plays Frank's daughter, the hippy chick Wendy in that episode, is 21, so I really don't think we ought to assume she is underage, at least.

That episode seemed to portray all the men as irresponsible boys, and all the women (okay, not Grandma Ida) as long-suffering grown-ups. The men run around narrowly avoiding disaster while the women roll their eyes and either bandage their wounds and soothe their tortured souls or (in Don's/Dick's case) lay into them for making everyone's life harder yet again.
posted by misha at 3:40 PM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


It was weird.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:46 PM on May 21, 2013


The side characters are more diverse - Ken, season one douchecanoness aside, is a responsible grown up suffering at the hands of drunk, rich men. Bert is an eccentric but no nonsense and practical. Henry is a genuinely good guy and adept politican.

But every dude in the office that weekend was a ranging basket case ruining shit all over.

Except for Ginsberg, who eventually got fed up and bailed.
posted by The Whelk at 3:58 PM on May 21, 2013


Which is why I like the overriding Vietnam metaphor- the adult supervision is ether gone or coked up and the guys on the ground are running wild and producing gibberish.
posted by The Whelk at 4:01 PM on May 21, 2013 [3 favorites]


Frankly, I feel like Weiner often does more harm than good as producer; what he thinks we should be feeling regarding the characters and what I actually feel are usually worlds apart.

I think there's a huge gulf between an EP's job at the actual workplace and an EP's job in the media.

I never read, watch, or listen to what showrunners say about their shows. It's all bullshit. And it's not just Weiner or any other high profile showrunner -- I remember once watching an EPK for a series I was currently working on, seeing an interview with the showrunner, who was someone I personally knew and liked and considered good at their job. Every single THING in the interview was bull. It's just part of the job description, as far as I'm concerned.

Hell, the WGA does a series of workshops for new showrunners. I wonder if there's a seminar called "Full Hearts/Clear Minds: Bullshitting About Your Upcoming Season In The Media".
posted by Sara C. at 4:42 PM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


That episode seemed to portray all the men as irresponsible boys, and all the women (okay, not Grandma Ida) as long-suffering grown-ups.

That said, Peggy has been playing this role since at least the episode where she smokes weed.
posted by Sara C. at 4:44 PM on May 21, 2013


Except for Ginsberg, who eventually got fed up and bailed.

I read something recently (possibly in this thread, or via this thread) that said that Weiner has said that Don Draper is semi-autobiographical.

I think that's bullshit. The real Weiner stand-in is Ginsberg. Off to the side, a little too weird, a little too sober, watching people like (coked up genius asshole) Aaron Sorkin and wishing he could be like that. And thus we have Don Draper: the genius asshole who cranks out his work under the influence, pulls all the women, awes all the men, and isn't who he says he is at all.
posted by Sara C. at 4:50 PM on May 21, 2013 [4 favorites]



I never read, watch, or listen to what showrunners say about their shows. It's all bullshit. And it's not just Weiner or any other high profile showrunner -- I remember once watching an EPK for a series I was currently working on, seeing an interview with the showrunner, who was someone I personally knew and liked and considered good at their job. Every single THING in the interview was bull. It's just part of the job description, as far as I'm concerned.


Wait. While I can guess about the various reasons why the truth is covered up in macrame' and glitter, why would the primary job of the EP be to lie consistently and regularly to the media about their production (aside from the normal baseline EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS FINE lying that comes with ..being alive apparently.) Like, what are they afraid of happening?
posted by The Whelk at 4:50 PM on May 21, 2013


Peggy's actually a disciplined, grounded person who knows how to be moderate. She will drink some, smoke some, smoke pot some, cut loose sexually sometimes, but she knows when to draw the line before she risks any damage to herself or others or ruins what she has. I can't imagine her ever having substance abuse issues. And though she enjoys her colleagues she knows when to buckle down and get to work. I can understand why she finds Don's excesses and the atmosphere at work pretty exasperating and sad.

She'll never be a female Don because she's got nothing like the issues he does. Her family may not have been perfect, but she had love and stability growing up. She's a whole person who's able to commit and to stand the stresses of real, long-term connections with others. She can be a little socially awkward, she makes mistakes, she and Abe might not be in it for the long haul, but I think in the long run she'll be much more like Ted Chaough than Don Draper.
posted by orange swan at 4:55 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


I didn't say it's the "primary job". I said that befuddling the media -- or at least not talking honestly about certain questions you're asked -- is part of the job.

I don't think it's so much a "what are they afraid of happening" thing, it's more that A) you don't want to even remotely risk giving anything away, B) you don't want to let people get more than a glimpse behind the curtain, and C) you want to preserve the glamour and mystery of the huge cash cow you're sitting on.

I mean, if Matt Weiner said in interviews, "Yeah, you know, we really didn't know fuck all what we were doing with Megan in season 5," it would be his ass.

My point, again, is that I'm sure Weiner is a brilliant Executive Producer and great at his job. But don't put too much stock in the interviews he gives, especially as it pertains to things that we, the viewer, are supposed to be figuring out for ourselves.

It's like those cryptic Next Time On promos. They know what they're doing. That's not an accident.
posted by Sara C. at 4:57 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think that the demon chasing Peggy is more along the lines of Jane Tennison than Don Draper.
posted by Sara C. at 5:37 PM on May 21, 2013


the normal baseline EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS FINE lying that comes with ..being alive apparently

I didn't know about this. I might be doing being alive wrong
posted by sweetkid at 5:43 PM on May 21, 2013


I dunno. Dan Harmon was always pretty upfront about the chaotic way he operated while he was running Community. Unless you think that's the reason he was canned.

Also, I see no reason why Weiner can't be both Ginsberg and Draper. The two are at very different stages of their lives. One could flow into the other.

I definitely think some of Weiner is in Ginsberg. I see people saying his dad is a caricature of an old Jewish dad, but having grown up with a grandfather who was a holocaust survivor, I think he's spot on. Whoever writes those scenes has a familiarity with growing up in that shadow that almost seems like a dog-whistle to those with a similar family background.
posted by dry white toast at 7:44 PM on May 21, 2013


The best episodes seem, to me, to be the ones Jon Hamm directs.

What? All two of them? I don't think so.

If we're going to praise the actor in this show that directs a hell of an episode, it's John Slattery. "The Rejected," "Blowing Smoke," "Signal 30," "Man with a Plan". All really well directed.
posted by crossoverman at 7:46 PM on May 21, 2013 [3 favorites]


Dan Harmon was always pretty upfront about the chaotic way he operated while he was running Community. Unless you think that's the reason he was canned.

A) Yes.

B) Even if not, I think Dan Harmon is a poor example because Community is just so fucking weird and difficult to frame as a pop cultural thing.

C) Per B, I think the PR strategy with Community has been its own very specific and highly nuanced/unusual thing. It's sort of OK for Harmon to come out and say, "hahalol this shit cray" about Community, but not really OK (from a network standpoint) for the showrunner of NCIS to do that.
posted by Sara C. at 7:47 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, I see no reason why Weiner can't be both Ginsberg and Draper. The two are at very different stages of their lives. One could flow into the other.

I don't see this at all. I also don't see Weiner as anything like Draper but Ginsberg, sure. More than that though Ginsberg and Draper are not on any sort of continuum. .
posted by sweetkid at 7:57 PM on May 21, 2013


Also, I don't think it's huge to point out, but so far no recap I've read as mentioned it - Don has spent the entire speedy weekend trying to figure out the perfect way to win Sylvia back, not working on Chevy but talking like he's working on Chevy (wooing a client is just like wooing a lover! The most demanding ones are the best ones!), talking all about persuasion and the timber of his voice and how he needs to be in the room, and just the right idea can get her- he unwittingly puts his family in danger to do this, to plan out the perfect thing to say to Sylvia once he can just get her alone.

And the final shot is him, alone with her, in a confined space, and all he can say is that he's "busy."
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on May 21, 2013 [5 favorites]


I really think Weiner is more like Joan. I don't know why, I just think it.
posted by crossoverman at 8:06 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also part of Don's speedy mumbling plan was to "say I'm going for cigarettes" before "knocking on her door."

I thought that was a pretty obvious call to the trope of "Daddy said he was going out for cigarettes...five years ago" family abandonment thing.

Don, even Season One Don, was pretty much ready to leave his family at the drop of a hat, for a woman. Rachel thought this was kinda sorta totally fucking monstrous.
posted by The Whelk at 8:11 PM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think one recap did mention it Whelk but I can't remember which - basically that Don wanted to "open the door" ie open to his emotions, but then he closed it again by the end of the episode because closing the door is dangerous (Aunt Ida) so that's why he was so tightlipped in the elevator. He'd given up.
posted by sweetkid at 8:12 PM on May 21, 2013


Well the question will be, is this a turning point or just another mile stone on the Don Draper Is Awful farewell tour.

All these home invasions and mystery dates and sudden vanishings! Sally is growing up with the idea that the world is Not A Very Safe Place. If Henry achieves national office, that's just gonna get worse. What does it do to have a shitton of advantages but be convinced the world is Out To Get You?

Also Peggy, pre-Dr. Feelgood injections was dressed to match the office. Afterward she clashed with the whole scenery.
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 PM on May 21, 2013


If Henry achieves national office, that's just gonna get worse.

Well, right now he's running for New York State Assembly, so he'll be looking at a national office ages and ages after the vogue for assassinations.

Though I guess Reagan did get shot in '81, so I could be wrong about that.

I don't think it will be the rollercoaster that it would be if Henry were running for Senate in '68 or something, though.

Question: is Henry going to be a delegate to the Chicago DNC?
posted by Sara C. at 8:21 PM on May 21, 2013


It's also the pressure of being the daughter of a politician, reflected in Betty's "Henry is running for office!" jab. Sally is going to be more closely watched and scrutinized than your average teenager, even if it's *just* State Assembly. The memory of the assassination period lasted for a long, long time.

I forget where I read it - no wait I heard it, the A.V Talk Podcast - that Sally is fascinating cause she can literally do anything. Her storyline could jump in any direction and it wouldn't feel out of place or character and so she's the rare thing on a serial drama, an actual X Factor.
posted by The Whelk at 8:26 PM on May 21, 2013


(and politics aside this is now TWO breakins in so many years she's gone through, not to mention Creepy Grandma Francis and her knife, and her J.D. Salinger daytrip with Glen. Sally's life is so weird.)
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 PM on May 21, 2013


Henry is a Republican, so no DNC for him.

But Henry is part of a dying breed: northeast establishment republicans. The type that was run by elites and decided presidential nominees in back rooms. And the '68 election was pretty much their end, coinciding with the rise of the Southern Strategy. Not in the Northeast though, so Henry will probably be fine.
posted by dry white toast at 8:28 PM on May 21, 2013


Also Sally's short skirt -> adult clothing -> Betty's Odd Streetwalker remark (seriously) -> She seems so grown up but she's still such a child -> I acted like a stupid little kid. Sally is introduced in this episode wearing grown-up attire and bossing around her brothers like the Older Sibling she is (I relate) and ends it in a child-like dressing gown and hair, realizing her father is a putz she knows nothing about.

If I was Sally, I'd be feeling pretty freaking alone right now.
posted by The Whelk at 8:31 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Betty's Odd Streetwalker remark (seriously)

Tom & Lorenzo want to be Betty. (Or at least a Joan Rivers version of her.) It makes so much sense! I'm going to sell this to Chevy--it's a can't lose pitch.
posted by psoas at 8:35 PM on May 21, 2013


Her storyline could jump in any direction and it wouldn't feel out of place or character and so she's the rare thing on a serial drama, an actual X Factor.

Just-just no Woodstock

Also Sally's short skirt -> adult clothing -> Betty's Odd Streetwalker remark (seriously) -> She seems so grown up but she's still such a child -> I acted like a stupid little kid. Sally is introduced in this episode wearing grown-up attire and bossing around her brothers like the Older Sibling she is (I relate) and ends it in a child-like dressing gown and hair, realizing her father is a putz she knows nothing about.


I agree, but this is such an early teens experience. Isn't it? Maybe not the dad is a putz part but the feeling grown up one minute and a baby the next.
posted by sweetkid at 8:37 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Tom & Lorenzo want to be Betty.

Huh?
posted by sweetkid at 8:37 PM on May 21, 2013


Well yes, Sally is a very well-drawn and observed early teenage character, I'm not a 14 year old girl in 1968 but I can totally relate to the miasma of wanting to be taken seriously and not actually being allowed to/know how to do it.
posted by The Whelk at 8:38 PM on May 21, 2013


(honestly I think Betty's bizarrely sexual jokes recently are anxiety about her teenage daughter hitting That Age combined with her own Mainline attitudes about sex and propriety getting all confused and angry in her head.)
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 PM on May 21, 2013


I didn't think the streetcorner comment was all that bad really. Sally ignores everything Betty says anyway, which is one of my favorite things about her character right now. It's like my "no one listens to Betty" theme amplified to being very obvious, as things teens do so often are.
posted by sweetkid at 8:46 PM on May 21, 2013


anxiety about her teenage daughter hitting That Age

She's been anxious about that since season 2 at least. Remember when Sally kissed some neighborhood kid during a play date and Betty mused to Don that she was worried she would be "fast"?

Also I think there were overtones of that when Sally got caught masturbating at the slumber party.

I think now that it's happening, Betty is like, "great, now I can just call her a whore openly rather than having to use delicate euphemisms like 'reputation' and 'necking'."
posted by Sara C. at 8:48 PM on May 21, 2013 [2 favorites]


Meanwhile Sally just straight up says "what hairdryer did you think that under" and they muddle on in the barbs of teenage parentingdom.
posted by The Whelk at 8:52 PM on May 21, 2013 [3 favorites]


yes! that was a great barb from mini-Betty, I mean Sally.
posted by sweetkid at 8:53 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't think you can round up and categorize all showrunners as "feeding bullshit to interviewers". Especially since so many showrunners in recent years have been fairly blunt, straightforward people – David Simon, Vince Gilligan (who comes off as such a nice guy it's wonderful), and Weiner's old boss David Chase all were pretty much up-front in interviews throughout their show's run.

Weiner doesn't say bullshit, he talks about overarching themes and character designs in ways that feel pretty much honest to me. That's not what I find irritating about him; that's proof that he knows how the fuck to run a show that goes on for longer than two episodes. What's irritating is that many of the themes he espouses often then show up in Mad Men, not subtly, but BLATANTLY SLEDGEHAMMERED INTO EVERY GODDAMN LINE. Okay, Mad Men is a "subtle" show compared to a show that doesn't have any underlying themes worth a damn, but then you get Glen Demon Spawn Of Weiner on the show saying lines that he's not competent enough to hide are actually the Major Themes of an episode, or you get Don looking inscrutable while saying Something About The Sixties, and it's like, Jesus Christ Mad Men, yes we get it, there are things happening here you don't have to be so LOUD about it.

Mad Men is capable of lots of neat and subtle things and it is generally a very good TV show, but one of its faults is how it'll sometimes have dialogue that's SO artificial that it breaks the fourth wall and becomes kind of a, "Hey audience! Did you catch this?" And then the characters seem less like compelling three-dimensional human beings and more like devices being used to shove a point home. Lots of critics of this week's episode said that that's why they didn't like this one, that it was way too blatant about This Is What We're Doing to the point that most of the individual sequences didn't resonate, and while I generally liked this episode I see where they're coming from. And because Weiner talks so much about the show in these grand sweeping terms, there's this sense (which may be entirely incorrect) that all of the worst of that kind of thing comes straight from the mouth of Weiner. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but in either case it doesn't have to do with Matt Weiner lying or any such.

(Again gonna repeat how good Vince Gilligan interviews are, he's so lucid about why he writes the way he writes but he's so gentlemanly about it. Swoon, he is my daydream showrunner.)
posted by Rory Marinich at 9:52 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


who comes off as such a nice guy it's wonderful

Again, I'm not saying that Matt Weiner is a bad person, or that TV showrunners are bad people.

I'm saying that giving these interviews is a part of their job, and there is a whole strategy behind how to deal with the media that does not come from them, individually. Obviously different people have different styles, and different shows (and different networks) have different PR strategies.

It's just not as simple as "Weiner said this in an interview, therefore this is the gospel truth and should inform how we viewers parse the show." I know this from working on TV shows and knowing writers and producers, and even being aware of their actual thoughts about the material vs. what they've said in the media.
posted by Sara C. at 10:05 PM on May 21, 2013 [1 favorite]


Lots of critics of this week's episode said that that's why they didn't like this one, that it was way too blatant about This Is What We're Doing to the point that most of the individual sequences didn't resonate, and while I generally liked this episode I see where they're coming from.

But what if What They Were Doing was a Vietnam allegory that Slate discussed and most critics didn't notice? What I love about this show is even when you think you know what they're doing, they're also playing three-dimensional chess and doing fourteen other things at the same time.

If this episode called "The Crash" was literally just about Don hitting rock bottom, I'd agree it wasn't a very good episode. But it's about more than that.
posted by crossoverman at 1:55 AM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


If this episode called "The Crash" was literally just about Don hitting rock bottom, I'd agree it wasn't a very good episode. But it's about more than that.

Right, and in this case I disagree with the critics saying that. While the "this is a Vietnam allegory" doesn't interest me in the least – cool, clever, hand-claps all around – the fact that the episode felt so confusing and muddled and draining strikes me as an incredibly honest and effective portrayal of how drug use feels sometimes. I have no experience with meth or any stimulant beyond caffeine really, but they captured that disorientation, that need to become louder and more certain because the world seems to be collapsing around you and you HAVE to hold onto yourself or else it doesn't make sense, remarkably well. It managed to feel dark without taking any of the easy paths to feeling dark. I quite liked it. (Though I haven't seen it a second time.)

I think that season 6 has generally been very well done. The thing I'm complaining about happened much more in season 5 – there were a lot of episodes where the theme was so blatantly enunciated in every damn scene that it completely lost its power to be effective. Characters saying lines so forced that I become disconnected to the plot as a viewer, since it feels like the show is dissolving into a soup of theme theme theme.
posted by Rory Marinich at 5:24 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


Betty's Odd Streetwalker remark (seriously)

Betty's own mother called her a whore for working as a fashion model.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:36 AM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


If I was Sally, I'd be feeling pretty freaking alone right now.

This is particularly true when you consider that her dad has been her oasis from a mother she couldn't stand for quite a while. First he was disinterested, now he's revealed himself as putting so many other things first.

It's a shame because if Sally Draper were my daughter, I'd count myself a lucky dad and want to spend as much time with her as possible.
posted by dry white toast at 6:46 AM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah. As a dad myself, Don's behavior towards his kids is one of the most difficult parts of the show.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:17 AM on May 22, 2013


Tom and Lorenzo's Mad Style review of "The Crash" is up!
posted by orange swan at 7:30 AM on May 22, 2013


The newest T&Lo Mad Style thesis: blue&green = confrontation; blue&yellow = lack of connection. Yeah, I could see it.

Huh?

I think they secretly want to be ice-queen bitches, is all.

posted by psoas at 7:31 AM on May 22, 2013


SarahC: "I know this from working on TV shows and knowing writers and producers, and even being aware of their actual thoughts about the material vs. what they've said in the media."

SarahC, you've mentioned this before, I think. I'd love to know how you are privy to all the juicy stuff! What line of work are you in? Do you write for television? You seem to have an inside line on some of the stuff going on here that gives you an unique insight the rest of us aren't privy to.

For instance, as a Trekkie, I was surprised to hear about that Star Trek memo you mentioned, begging the show to be more inclusive of racial concerns, because I had always thought that Gene Roddenberry was the one pushing for a more liberal viewpoint on the show.

I remember reading anecdotal accounts of him, and the show writers, deliberately throwing obvious distractions at the censors, things they knew would be objected to and stricken from the show, so that they could address issues which Roddenberry felt were more important to bring out. Supposedly, in A Private Little War, allowing a flash of bare breast was sufficient to allow an entire episode critical of the Vietnam conflict to slip on through the censors' watchful eyes.

Learning that the progressive racial stance was driven by Network concerns rather than Roddenberry's personal beliefs is surprising and fascinating, given that context.
posted by misha at 8:39 AM on May 22, 2013


What I love about this show is even when you think you know what they're doing, they're also playing three-dimensional chess and doing fourteen other things at the same time.

Exactly. Part of what irks me about the "this season sux because it's so OBVIOUS" is that the people saying that are clearly only seeing the absolute surface level. The point of Mad Men isn't the standard boilerplate workplace drama and portrait of an anti-hero struggling (or not) to redeem himself. I mean, we've seen that a million times. The point is the other stuff, like Peggy not even bothering to click her pen open, or the way that Stan's William Tell moment calls back to The Deer Hunter, or the way that the speed doctor is based on a real guy.

I mean, if you're not interested in that stuff and just want to watch a workplace drama with an anti-hero struggling to redeem himself, cool. But don't look down your nose when you decide that you've cracked the code on workplace dramas and anti-heroes.
posted by Sara C. at 8:45 AM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'd love to know how you are privy to all the juicy stuff!

I'm a production secretary, assistant, and sometimes coordinator in film and TV (and now also digital). I'm also a screenwriter on the side.

I know about the Star Trek thing because there's a copy of that memo in this book, which I'm currently reading. It's by the show's studio executive and another one of the producers and is chock full of (somewhat axe-grindy) minutia about the production of the original series.

That said, yeah, Roddenberry was a liberal and was happy to comply with the memo. Just because you get a memo from the network doesn't mean it's this big angry confrontation where one side is like YOU WILL DO THIS and the other side is like NO WE WILL NOT. Networks issue memos. It happens every day. Usually they're about things that are not in any way controversial like, "here is our procedure for submitting production reports" or "please recycle on set."
posted by Sara C. at 9:02 AM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh man in the first SENTENCE T&Lo are doing that "too obvious" thing about something that smart people in this very thread didn't catch on first viewing. And which the viewer needs to understand in order for the episode to make any sense (heh).

UGH UGH UGH why do I even read them anymore.
posted by Sara C. at 9:08 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also I think tying the purple print on Ida's dress to the print in Wendy's top is fucking wrong and nuts and silly.
posted by Sara C. at 9:13 AM on May 22, 2013



UGH UGH UGH why do I even read them anymore


That was my thought.

Also I think tying the purple print on Ida's dress to the print in Wendy's top is fucking wrong and nuts and silly.

PREACH.

Also OMG PINK makes us feel the world is so topsy turvy.
posted by sweetkid at 9:15 AM on May 22, 2013


UGH UGH UGH why do I even read them anymore.

Yeah, those first paragraphs are really, really off-putting. I'm glad they're acknowledging that they've done a poor job of analysis (and encouraging real analysis) this season but then they proceed to do pretty much a slight variation of the same thing they've been doing all season, anyway.

And Peggy's black and white outfit is because she's coming from a funeral.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:16 AM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also Peggy is NOT "almost 30 years old". She's 27. Gah. I mean maybe that remark hits a little close to home, but when 27 is, like, YOU ARE ELDERLY NOW PEGGY GO DRESS LIKE A GRANDMA, I mean whut

(Though I agree that Real Adulthood started earlier in the 60's and Peggy is definitely too grown up to be a hippie or anything like that -- but that's because hippies were all about 17, not because 27 is moth ball aged. Even in the context of the 60s Peggy still falls under the "don't trust anyone over 30" thing.)
posted by Sara C. at 9:20 AM on May 22, 2013


Also I think tying the purple print on Ida's dress to the print in Wendy's top is fucking wrong and nuts and silly.

I don't have a background in media criticism or fashion, but that seems like a very good point: both of them are interlopers in their scenes and they're wearing a very similar color scheme and I just don't get at all why pointing that out is "wrong."
posted by psoas at 9:48 AM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


I really didn't read their comments on Peggy's age is saying she's elderly. They were saying she's fully formed and confident in who she is.
posted by dry white toast at 9:59 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


Because Wendy isn't an interloper. Her father was a partner in the company and she was brought there by another partner. All her scenes except the one with Don feature her as an accepted part of the group.

Is it weird that a hippie comes to SCDPCGC? I guess. But she's not an "interloper".

And the clothes don't tie them together at all. They're both... wearing a print that might be purple if you squint but doesn't read overwhelmingly purple as an overall part of the look?
posted by Sara C. at 10:00 AM on May 22, 2013


Because Wendy isn't an interloper.

She came out of nowhere and, because she did, there is now a 0% chance of Steggy. Interloper.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:03 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


She's yet another strange person in a place she doesn't belong to. I think it works.
posted by The Whelk at 10:05 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


But she only came out of nowhere to us. She's not an uninvited guest. She's not unwelcome. She didn't have to infiltrate the Time Life building to get in. The only thing that sets her apart from anyone else in her scenes is that she's a hippie. Which doesn't make one an interloper, no matter how sad we are that she had sex with Stan.

If you think about it, she's almost the OPPOSITE of Grandma Ida. She's a family member who doesn't have to say she's a family member, coming to a place where she's different but not unwelcome, as an invited guest, and being quickly accepted into the fold.

Also even if she and Grandma Ida have parallels, their clothes have nothing to do with each other at all.
posted by Sara C. at 10:09 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah that clothes thing was a stretching stretch that stretches.
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also Peggy is NOT "almost 30 years old". She's 27.

Peggy is 29, NOT 27. She was born in May 1939, according to the Mad Men wiki, and Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June of 68, so she's already had her 29th birthday.

She really is "almost 30."
posted by misha at 10:11 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


But she only came out of nowhere to us.

Yes - for all we know Wendy was over at the offices of CCG all the time to meet her dad.
posted by mikepop at 10:13 AM on May 22, 2013


Coincidentally, the AV Club was talking about interlopers today.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:13 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


The only thing that sets her apart from anyone else in her scenes is that she's a hippie.

She doesn't work there, isn't supposed to be there, has no reason to be there, etc.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:13 AM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


Plus she'd be entirely new to the SCDP staff. Did Gleason ever set foot in the SCDP office? I cast my vote with interloper as well.
posted by dry white toast at 10:18 AM on May 22, 2013


That said, totally agree that "purple print = interloper!" is silly. Sometimes an aesthetic is just an aesthetic.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:22 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


She doesn't work there, isn't supposed to be there, has no reason to be there

She's Gleason's daughter, and Cutler brought her there after the funeral that several people in her scenes also attended.

She has no reason to be there in terms of the narrative of the episode, but that doesn't make her an interloper.

She is absolutely NOT treated as an interloper in any of her scenes except the one with Don, and, at a stretch, the final scene (again with Don) where it's revealed that she shouldn't have been there, her mother was worried, etc. Which, again, is in opposition to Grandma Ida.
posted by Sara C. at 10:27 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


She doesn't work there, isn't supposed to be there, has no reason to be there

She's Gleason's daughter, and Cutler brought her there after the funeral that several people in her scenes also attended.


Yeah I think that's plenty of reason for her to be there. It's a weird weekend-in-the-office, most of the office is on drugs, and some people are mourning Gleason. It's not like she hopped in in the middle of the 9 to 5. She was with all the funeral people, and Cutler just brought her to the office so she wasn't running wild in the city. Probably not the best he could have done for her, but he doesn't seem like the most stand up guy anyway.

She is absolutely NOT treated as an interloper in any of her scenes except the one with Don, and, at a stretch, the final scene (again with Don) where it's revealed that she shouldn't have been there, her mother was worried, etc. Which, again, is in opposition to Grandma Ida.

I would have bought the interloper thing if she, like Ida, were revealed to be something other than how she represented herself, like if at the end of the episode everyone was like, "hey who was that girl, anyway?" "I thought YOU knew her" blah blah.
posted by sweetkid at 10:32 AM on May 22, 2013


I actually liked Tom and Lorenzo's take this week! Though I don't agree with everything they said, a lot of it resonated with me.

Wendy doesn't fit in at all. "Interloper" is just semantics. Outsider works just as well. Just because her Dad worked there doesn't mean she has anything in common with the people who do. Obviously, she doesn't.

It's her weirdness that makes her appealing to them; the coin readings and the rest clearly mark her as anything but a YUPPIE (yes, I know the term is anachronistic here, but it works to describe the difference between young professional types working within the system and young, counter-culture hippie types).

The head wrapping, soup feeding Mom connection works really well for me, too. The head wrap is the same color as Betty's Righteous Mother dress. Have we ever seen Megan feeding Don anything? I remember Betty would have food for him when he came home at ridiculous hours, but it was like, egg salad sandwiches and cold stuff. Cold comfort, heh. Remember that Don's stepmother ("She's not my Mom!") only uses the wooden spoon to beat him, not to feed and nurture him.

I think I understand Don's attraction to Sylvia a lot better now, too. Sylvia was an unique combination of the sexy whore and the Mom figure for Don, which is why he finds it so hard to take when she dumps him. It's like Mom (and maybe stepmom) deserting him, again.

Betty was like a pretty Mom of his dreams. She worked as a model, but I think we can assume that she 'saved herself' for marriage. But once she became a Mom, and wasn't at all good at that, he tired of her, and went looking for the "whore" (in his twisted perception of women, they fit into one of those molds: whore, mother, harpy). Megan is like the pretty whore of his dreams, who also showed herself to be capable of mothering when she was kind to his children. Don even liked her working alongside him (where he could keep an eye on her and still be proud of showing her off). But when she wanted to keep working as an actress--whoring herself out in Don's twisted opinion--she lost her luster, too.

Sylvia was the perfect combination for him, a devoted mother (but not of his children), and a whore for Don. When he heard her yelling in the elevator, he was forcibly reminded of his evil stepmother the harpy, so he was ready to dump Sylvia. But then she called him and told him how much she needed him, and only he would do, and suddenly he is not the worthless, unwanted stepchild but the one with the power. So he tried to control her, to get back for all that powerlessness he felt as a child, deliberately making Sylvia over into the whore in the red dress who fetched for him like a dog. Sylvia, faced with all his weird baggage, wisely dumps Don. But he can't accept that, because he was supposed to be in control: "It's over when I say it's over!"
posted by misha at 10:37 AM on May 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


The thing is that Tom and Lorenzo have a recurring obsession with women (and drag queens) dressing their age -- mostly young women not wearing "aging" things, not wearing things that signal "Palm Springs" or "grandma," not wearing things that don't take advantage of a youthful body.

"And then the next thing you know, you’ll be 60 and breaking out the tube tops and mini-skirts because you’ll realize too late that you naively thought your tits would always be that perky and your ass that smooth and taut, and that there would be plenty of time to look hot should the desire ever hit you. But oh, darling; it’s not true. Your hotness is like a bank account that depreciates a little bit every day..."

(That was from an especially brutal one, but there's also also this and this, from searches for "dowdy" and "gives up.")

It tends to stay out of their Mad Style posts, relatively speaking, since they are commentaries rather than critiques, but I think the idea that "women should dress their age" is always with them and sometimes overrides critical response. They're implicitly praising Peggy for dressing her age here, and they've also based many a point on the fact that a character is "dressed like a little girl" to modern eyes, or else pointed out that they're wearing things that look "old" to us (when perhaps to me, they did not) because in the early '60s women were expected to dress conservatively as soon as they were married. Sometimes it's a legitimate critical comment and sometimes not.

I credit T.Lo's Mad Style posts for getting me interested in Mad Men -- I had an instinctive antipathy towards it before, and I followed them avidly for most of season 5 before I actually just watched the damn show. But they've started to really, really grate on me with their obsession with age-appropriate dressing, and with the Mad Style posts ramping up the condescension and the obsession with the color wheel (which would be interesting in much smaller quantities, phrased differently), it might be time for me to stop reading them. I enjoy their recaps and celebrity fluff, and they're at least more adventurous in their tastes than the Fug Girls, but they're getting kind of emotionally wearing.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:37 AM on May 22, 2013 [4 favorites]


mostly young women not wearing "aging" things, not wearing things that signal "Palm Springs" or "grandma," not wearing things that don't take advantage of a youthful body.

yeah, and the fact that they're men really grates when they do this cause men commenting on women's bodies with this context just isn't a great thing.

When reading the commentary for Mad Style too I feel like it's so weird that they have all these people on there who say they have no desire to watch the show but like Mad Style. I'm like...why?
posted by sweetkid at 10:52 AM on May 22, 2013 [4 favorites]


Also Peggy is NOT "almost 30 years old". She's 27. Gah.

Sorry, you're mistaken. Peggy turned 26 the night of the fight between Mohammed Ali vs. Sonny Liston, on May 25, 1965. The show is now in the spring of 1968, which means Peggy is 29.
posted by orange swan at 12:14 PM on May 22, 2013


yea we covered that. Peggy's still basically the same age as Megan though, who everyone keeps saying is "the future" while Peggy is a maturing woman apparently. It's weird.
posted by sweetkid at 12:15 PM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sorry guys for some reason I thought she was 19 in the first season, which takes place in 1960.

I also think it's interesting that, for at least the first three seasons of the show, T&Lo make frequent mention of her schoolgirl inspired outfits and state that she was a school girl not that long ago. But that was when she was... 25? And yet now she is 29 and it's suddenly like "thank god she's dressing like the matronly businesswoman she is, amirite?"

I agree with their thesis that she's come into her own, and that this is reflected in her clothes.

I just don't think it has that much to do with her numeric age.

I also think it's interesting that Ted's secretary is wearing almost the exact outfit Peggy was wearing in the last episode (that minty shift), and yet one is an example of someone dressing like a Mature Adult and the other one is an example of how sexy that secretary is.
posted by Sara C. at 12:24 PM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


Megan and Peggy are very different. Peggy's a "play by the rules" type, and less socially adept, while Megan is more free-spirited and empathetic. Peggy's the one who complains about things changing, whose clothes are several years behind the times, while Megan is cutting edge. So Megan presents as more modern, even though Peggy, who actually worked for everything she has, who broke down some industry sexism barriers, who is in a common-law relationship and is a property owner (I bet Abe didn't pay for that apartment building and it's in her name), is really the feminist trailblazer.
posted by orange swan at 12:32 PM on May 22, 2013 [3 favorites]


eh, I don't see how being free spirited and empathetic makes someone modern. With Megan it's just the clothes and Zooby Zoo and stuff. Even a lot of the recaps have made mention that she defers to Don a lot. She's not all that modern or the future except for her style.

Obviously Peggy and Megan are different, it's just odd to trumpet the youth of one character and emphasize the age of another when they're at most two years apart. But it's a thing that happens, especially with women.

But yes, agreed that Peggy is the real trailblazer.
posted by sweetkid at 12:37 PM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]


Megan's openness about her feelings is very modern. It used to be that adults were supposed to control themselves, to be mature, and not "get emotional". We take that for granted these days, but the late sixties and seventies is when that changed. Her quitting a 9 to 5 job to pursue her dream of becoming an actress was modern. The fifties were all about settling down and being responsible and conforming. And Megan's comfort level with attracting attention, her willingness to sing a sexy song in a minidress, is also modern. To us, when we're used to Lady GaGa and Madonna, it doesn't look terribly risqué, but it would have to the older members of her audience. Remember how Harry reacted? Megan didn't mean to be provocative, either. For her it was all about the fun of performing.
posted by orange swan at 3:15 PM on May 22, 2013 [2 favorites]




Racialicious has their review of this episode up. It sums up my feelings pretty succintly:
You cannot have a show nearly devoid of black characters for multiple seasons and then, apropos of nothing, drop in a walking amalgam of Mammy and thief stereotypes and give her, seemingly, more screen time, character development, and dialogue than any black character to date. It’s just…damn, Matt Weiner! This show is supposed to be better than that.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:30 AM on May 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yeah, my feelings as that scene progressed quickly went from "what the hell is happening" to "...seriously?" It feels almost like we're getting trolled at this point.
posted by invitapriore at 8:20 AM on May 24, 2013


Wow, guys, I just finished this thread. It took me several days, and hooboy, am I damn glad I watched Sunday's episode before reading your minute-by-minute commentary. I would pay for a live Whelk feed for every episode.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:35 PM on May 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


I would like to be paid in Old Fashions and vintage menswear.
posted by The Whelk at 7:07 PM on May 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


Deal
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:33 PM on May 24, 2013


Wonderful, have your people call my people.

Businessmen have people, right? All I know about the business world comes from this show and American Pyscho.
posted by The Whelk at 7:50 PM on May 24, 2013


Ida thing's still weird.
posted by box at 6:40 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


"I feel strongly both ways."
posted by Chrysostom at 7:03 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Still on that partner thing.
posted by rewil at 7:04 PM on May 26, 2013


The '27 Yankees were really good.
posted by dry white toast at 7:04 PM on May 26, 2013


They swept the Pirates in the World Series, bastards.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:06 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Peggy has two dads.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:06 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Thin Betty!
posted by Chrysostom at 7:06 PM on May 26, 2013


Why is Frank Langella hitting on Betty?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:07 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Hello late '60s hairdo Betty.
posted by dry white toast at 7:07 PM on May 26, 2013


"Shut up, Abe!"
posted by Chrysostom at 7:09 PM on May 26, 2013


Is it just me or did Abe sound like Ralph Kramden in that scene?
posted by dry white toast at 7:11 PM on May 26, 2013


Pop Pop! Now we just need Annyong.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:14 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Duck
posted by sweetkid at 7:15 PM on May 26, 2013


Am I drunk or is that Duck Phillips?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:15 PM on May 26, 2013


I love it. Pete meeting with Duck where he entertains his mistresses.
posted by dry white toast at 7:15 PM on May 26, 2013


I don't want to know about the wellspring of Duck's confidence.

Unless it is, in fact, gin.
posted by rewil at 7:17 PM on May 26, 2013


Whatever Duck Phillips. I hope Chauncy hunts you down and bites your face.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:18 PM on May 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


oh shit. Are Don and Betty going to kanoodle?
posted by dry white toast at 7:18 PM on May 26, 2013


This season is all about callbacks.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:18 PM on May 26, 2013


Teggy?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:23 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Abe kinda reminded me of Mike Stivic.
posted by box at 7:23 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


This episode is not very cohesive.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:24 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh it is SO ON.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:24 PM on May 26, 2013


The other Bobbys weren't potty mouths. Clearly they need to return him to the Bobby store.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:24 PM on May 26, 2013 [7 favorites]


Bobby five!
posted by rewil at 7:24 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Camp Bobby - We have a Kennedy!
posted by dry white toast at 7:25 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


This episode is taking place in the dreams of Bob Newhart.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:25 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Jesus Christ, if Bobby sings that song one more goddamn time, I'm going to need a drink.
posted by box at 7:25 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


This episode is not very cohesive.

I drank...a lot today so. If you say so. I thought so too but am entirely unsure.
posted by sweetkid at 7:25 PM on May 26, 2013


Stop trying to make Poan happen, Jete Pambell.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:27 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Team Detty!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:28 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Poanage
posted by dry white toast at 7:28 PM on May 26, 2013


Our local car dealership forgot to cancel their "The storms have passed but the savings haven't!" car commercial bookings. Awkward!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:30 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


My Zap2It TV Listing summarizes this episode as:

The Better Half
NEW
S06, E09
Roger is tormented by a recurring dream; Joan goes to the beach.

None of that is happening yet, and am slightly afraid that if Joan goes to the beach, she'll go with Pete and I can't think of anything I'd want to see Pete doing at any beach.
posted by peagood at 7:31 PM on May 26, 2013


Is Arlene having menopause or is she badly out of shape?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:31 PM on May 26, 2013


I see this is one of those weeks that makes me feel for Pete.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:32 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Meglene!
posted by box at 7:32 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Betty is foreshadowing J.Crew.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:33 PM on May 26, 2013


Great all we need is a teenage Lindsay Lohan to make this Detty caper complete.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on May 26, 2013


OMFG OMFG OMFG
posted by Chrysostom at 7:35 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Recursive Draper is recursive.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:36 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


They want to make their own Camp Bobby.
posted by dry white toast at 7:36 PM on May 26, 2013


Clearly the answer to Don's problem is SISTER WIVES.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:36 PM on May 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


Double OMFG
posted by Chrysostom at 7:36 PM on May 26, 2013


Okay NOW you can say OMFG OMFG OMFG.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:37 PM on May 26, 2013


You're drunk, Arlene GO HOME.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:37 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Wow, that went really badly.
posted by dry white toast at 7:38 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


That was a formidable wig she had. Not the worst advice.
posted by rewil at 7:38 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


So, um, when did Betty become Don?
posted by dry white toast at 7:39 PM on May 26, 2013


In the back of the limo when they were reenacting the scene from "No Way Out."
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:40 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


WOW Don n Betty
posted by sweetkid at 7:43 PM on May 26, 2013


Will someone PLEASE tell the set designer, or whomever's responsible, to take the microphones out of the damn pillowcases! And all fabrics forthwith.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:45 PM on May 26, 2013


You guys: This may sound crazy, but I am starting to wonder if maybe Don Draper has some issues to sort out with sex.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:45 PM on May 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


Once again Betty says a bunch of amazing, revealing things about herself and Don no one else would ever say
posted by sweetkid at 7:45 PM on May 26, 2013 [10 favorites]


Good Lord, all Abe needs is a hook for a hand and the AD callouts in this episode will be complete.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


I need Roger Sterling's Dr. Zaius impression turned into a ringtone STAT.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:48 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


There are 12 minutes left for Joan to go to the beach.
posted by dry white toast at 7:49 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Ah, geez, I hate it when Roger gets kicked in the nuts. I mean, she's totally right, but.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:49 PM on May 26, 2013


Zap2It TV listings are clearly written by someone hitting the Johnnie Walker a bit too much.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:50 PM on May 26, 2013


Nice wide-angle close-up shot of Don looking/feeling alone. I love when moments like that happen, because they remind me how deft this show can be. Also, DETTY!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:51 PM on May 26, 2013


Maybe Megan just needs to wear her Collette costume home once in awhile to spice things up.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:52 PM on May 26, 2013


ZOMFG
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:53 PM on May 26, 2013


BOB = BEACH BOY BINGO
posted by Chrysostom at 7:53 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Job Benson!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:53 PM on May 26, 2013


Boan!
posted by dry white toast at 7:54 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


This episode has taken a sharp turn into the insane.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:54 PM on May 26, 2013


Going to the beach With Bob. Who is Worried About Pete.

Time for a drink.
posted by rewil at 7:54 PM on May 26, 2013


Oh my, I think Bob Benson is packing an extra coffee in his shorts.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:55 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Nice shorts, Benson.
posted by box at 7:55 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


this episode is strange to watch if you've been drinking all day at a bridal shower is what
posted by sweetkid at 7:55 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


WHAT THE WHAT?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:56 PM on May 26, 2013


Is there a level past ZOMG?
posted by Chrysostom at 7:56 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


OMFG
posted by box at 7:56 PM on May 26, 2013


OMFG OMFG OMFG.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:56 PM on May 26, 2013


I don't have any OMGs left.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:56 PM on May 26, 2013


Right up there with the lawnmower.
posted by rewil at 7:56 PM on May 26, 2013


No one's doing any work this episode that's for sure.
posted by sweetkid at 7:57 PM on May 26, 2013


I JUST SWITCHED OVER FROM THE LIBERACE MOVIE WHAT IS FUCKING GOING ON AAAH
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


First half of episode: dull and meandering.
Second half of episode: 100% pure insanity.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:57 PM on May 26, 2013


Pretty Baller, Abe.
posted by dry white toast at 7:57 PM on May 26, 2013


Megan's T-Shaped Shirt WANT.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:57 PM on May 26, 2013


You wouldn't believe us if we told you.
posted by box at 7:57 PM on May 26, 2013


The Whelk, grab yourself a large, large drink.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:58 PM on May 26, 2013


Yes, yes, we hear the sirens.
posted by rewil at 7:58 PM on May 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


Foreshadowing?
posted by dry white toast at 7:58 PM on May 26, 2013


OK what is with all the blaring sirens outside Don and Megan's apartment? Happened at the dinner scene, and now with her in her Commie t-shirt.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:59 PM on May 26, 2013


Make it an Irish coffee for The Whelk. I always carry an extra.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:59 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


The Whelk, grab yourself a large, large drink.

No I have been trying to tell you not helpful
posted by sweetkid at 7:59 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


You know, Joan did end up going to the beach.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:59 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Bob Bunsen is my favorite Muppet.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:00 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Here, I always carry an extra nurse.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:00 PM on May 26, 2013 [19 favorites]


Dark Lord Bob Benson further consolidates his power.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:01 PM on May 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


That's our Bob!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:01 PM on May 26, 2013


Retro Peggy.
posted by dry white toast at 8:01 PM on May 26, 2013


Peggy has trauma hair.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:01 PM on May 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


I'm waiting until the repeat by mixing myself the world's largest Old Fashioned ever.
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


GO FIND STAN
posted by rewil at 8:02 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's basically just a straw in a cocktail shaker.
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


I wonder what Robert Guillaume is up to these days.
posted by box at 8:02 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Holy crap you guys are killing me I need it to be west coast showtime now plzkthx
posted by palomar at 8:03 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Allright everyone LET'S SELL SOME MARGARINE.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:03 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Peggy looks like how we all feel after this episode.
posted by dry white toast at 8:03 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Hey, I learned something. I didn't know that song wasn't by Naked Eyes originally.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:04 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


I want to watch an 'On the next Mad Men' supercut.
posted by box at 8:04 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Okay let's do this. Ive seen Matt Damon's butt like four times tonight I can do this.
posted by The Whelk at 8:05 PM on May 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


I don't know about you but my take away from that episode is that Betty and Bob were wearing the same shorts.
posted by dry white toast at 8:06 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


PEGGY!
posted by The Whelk at 8:06 PM on May 26, 2013


From now on, the correct answer is "Mouthwatering, savory delicious taste."
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:07 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm fucking Matt Damon!
posted by Chrysostom at 8:07 PM on May 26, 2013


Aw it's like season one where they need hypothetical female client, so awkward.
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


I want to watch an 'On the next Mad Men' supercut.

Yes! That would be the perfect companion piece to Don Draper Says What.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:08 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Harry don't say ball tickle with that hair.
posted by The Whelk at 8:08 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh, honey, drop another cherry in that Old Fashioned.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:08 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


COLETTE
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 PM on May 26, 2013


Oh God, the crocheted jumpsuit is killing me.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:09 PM on May 26, 2013


TEAM SASSY PEGGY
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Noticing more things on rewatch, yet still not sober. Dammit!
posted by sweetkid at 8:11 PM on May 26, 2013


Stop it Not Frank Langella, you are a trout swimming with sharks.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:12 PM on May 26, 2013


WAIT NO TEAM EGO MONSTER BETTY
posted by The Whelk at 8:12 PM on May 26, 2013


It's okay Abe in like 30 years the most dangerous thing on the w 72nd stop are strollers.
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Abe, you strange paranoid oh hey Peggy being oh man the hellllll
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 PM on May 26, 2013


It has just occurred to me that Abe is really Dan Humphrey.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:14 PM on May 26, 2013


It's okay Abe in like 30 years the most dangerous thing on the w 72nd stop are strollers.

Abe is making some culturally relevant points
posted by sweetkid at 8:15 PM on May 26, 2013


Abe is also teaching us valuable lessons about why we never talk to cops.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:15 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Two sides of the same person I WONDER IF THIS WILL BE OUR ONGOING THEME
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


It has just occurred to me that Abe is really Dan Humphrey.

Lonely boy?
posted by sweetkid at 8:15 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Whelk calmly makes his comments, completely unaware of the 500-foot wave rising behind him....
posted by Chrysostom at 8:16 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Oh Joan, go be reminded of the life you could've had....
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on May 26, 2013


DUUUUUUUUUUUCK
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on May 26, 2013


Talking about Stewart is at least less disturbing than talking about that violinist girl as far as Henry-and-Betty turn-ons go.
posted by rewil at 8:19 PM on May 26, 2013



DUUUUUUUUUUUCK
RIGHT?
posted by sweetkid at 8:19 PM on May 26, 2013


yes, the Whelk is going to need something stronger than mere alcohol.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:19 PM on May 26, 2013


We are so behind. Just started watching. I can't wait for the excitements!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:19 PM on May 26, 2013


Holy crap, I had already forgotten about Duck. Damn, Weiner, you got skills.
posted by dry white toast at 8:20 PM on May 26, 2013


Dona and Betty meeting like this, this is some fanfic shit right here.

I love it.
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


That's why I thought half this episode was dream sequences on first watch
posted by sweetkid at 8:22 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Duck and Burt re-appearances this season. We need Freddy Rumsen and Sal.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:23 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Camp was never a big thing where I grew up. Is parents coming by for prolonged visits a typical thing?
posted by rewil at 8:24 PM on May 26, 2013


We have always needed Sal. :-(
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:24 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Having just seen the Liberace movie I like to think Sal is wearing a 19 foot long virgin fox robe with feather trim.
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


I had an awesome Islay Scotch yesterday, this Johnnie Walker shit doesn't cut it anymore.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:25 PM on May 26, 2013


Ted, you are touch shaming!
posted by The Whelk at 8:26 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Hey, Don, doesn't spending that night in the barn with the hobo count as camp?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:26 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


So this is ... Teggy, then?
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 PM on May 26, 2013


The print/wallpaper/whatever in Ted's office is strongly vaginal.
posted by rewil at 8:27 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Father Abraham. Had seven Bobbys. Seven Bobbys had Father Abraham.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:28 PM on May 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


BOBBY FIVE ALIVE
posted by The Whelk at 8:28 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Bobby IS bossy
posted by sweetkid at 8:28 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


I love smiling January/Betty. What a charmer.

I don't care what you say I'll never change
posted by sweetkid at 8:30 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


PETE, BACK AWAY FROM JOANIE, HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Camp was never a big thing where I grew up. Is parents coming by for prolonged visits a typical thing?

I went to sleepaway camp in Connecticut (which I personally hated), and every summer there was a weekend when the parents came to visit, ostensibly to make sure the gajillions of dollars they were spending were going towards quality bug juice and fresh imitation Wonder bread.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:31 PM on May 26, 2013


Don ..Betty ...feeeeeelings
posted by The Whelk at 8:38 PM on May 26, 2013


THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 PM on May 26, 2013


Didn't their Ossining home have cedar paneling as well?
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:39 PM on May 26, 2013


* one protracted high pitched wHine*
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 PM on May 26, 2013


Now would be a good time to top off your Old Fashioned.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:40 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


LESBIAN O CLOCK
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 PM on May 26, 2013


A scene a child could understand.
posted by box at 8:42 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


At least Arlene takes rejection well.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:42 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


HOLY LEAPING LESBIANS BATMAN
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on May 26, 2013


I'm going to let the wig do the work from now on.
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on May 26, 2013


DECAAAAAY
posted by The Whelk at 8:48 PM on May 26, 2013


QUESTION #5: Name at least four OMFG moments from tonight's Mad Men. Support your reasoning.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:48 PM on May 26, 2013 [10 favorites]


THAT POOR GIRL
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Don Draper, Father of the Year.
posted by box at 8:51 PM on May 26, 2013


I wake up just like Roger Sterling.
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 PM on May 26, 2013


QUESTION #5: Name at least four OMFG moments from tonight's Mad Men. Support your reasoning.

I'd answer this right now, but I don't want to rob the Whelk of his own OMFGs.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:52 PM on May 26, 2013


You wake up with your daughter telling you you are a child and a horrible father/grandfather? Ick, I just use an alarm that sounds like a rooster.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:53 PM on May 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


I mean I wake up naked and failing to messages of how I've Dissapointed people.
posted by The Whelk at 8:55 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


It could be worse; you could be waking up all hungover from Smirnoff Sorbet Light.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:57 PM on May 26, 2013


I'm still weirded out by Don Draper selling me American Airlines
posted by The Whelk at 8:57 PM on May 26, 2013


WE CALL THIS WIND POWERED YACHT BENOANIE.

Or Joanson.
posted by The Whelk at 8:58 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh god I saw the little benson
posted by The Whelk at 8:59 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


AHHHHAHA
posted by The Whelk at 8:59 PM on May 26, 2013


It's not little.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:59 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Abe's paper makes its money on subscriptions.
posted by box at 9:01 PM on May 26, 2013


Well you did stab him Peggy that's kind of a deal breaker.
posted by The Whelk at 9:01 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


STMFA, stab the motherfucker already.
posted by The Whelk at 9:01 PM on May 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


That was pretty much the most honest and civilized break-up Mad Men has ever done.
posted by gladly at 9:02 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Stabby Olsen
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:02 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Aww, no one let's Roger be a granddad.
posted by The Whelk at 9:04 PM on May 26, 2013


Someone needs to send around an SCDPCDG office memo RE: Age appropriate toys for Kevin.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:04 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'd like Bob to know that Pete saw Duck. All the work he's doing shouldn't go to waste.
posted by rewil at 9:05 PM on May 26, 2013


Bob you better be a demon from literal hell or Christ reborn cause damn.
posted by The Whelk at 9:05 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Peggy without makeup is somehow unsettling.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on May 26, 2013


Is it okay to dive into Liberace halfway or do I need to start from the beginning?
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:09 PM on May 26, 2013


Long story short, too much money, too many boyfriends.
posted by The Whelk at 9:12 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


also, Catholicism.
posted by The Whelk at 9:12 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, candelabras.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:14 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


and coke.

Lots of coke.
posted by The Whelk at 9:16 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, as said before


Boan!
posted by The Whelk at 9:26 PM on May 26, 2013


Just finished watching... I am having a lot of feelings right now. At least 44% of those feelings are about Bob Benson's legs. GodDAMN, Bob Benson.
posted by palomar at 9:26 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


somewhere on a golden violin sings the sad tale of the good ship Kenson.


I have too many feelings!
posted by The Whelk at 9:30 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]




I think it's surgically implanted in his hand.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:33 PM on May 26, 2013


"I bring the coffee. The coffee does not bring me."
posted by The Whelk at 9:34 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Joan had a cup of coffee, too! That's when I died! From a feels explosion!
posted by palomar at 9:35 PM on May 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


don't be died palomar we need you in these discussions
posted by sweetkid at 9:36 PM on May 26, 2013


Oh Peggy, you are such a train wreck with men, if only there was some brotherly-like figure you could drown your sorrows with.
posted by The Whelk at 9:38 PM on May 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


Bob Benson, he brings the Spaniards from Spain.

I do like the call-backs to Pete's Mom's horrible racism to explain why he's totally not a dick about that one thing. It's like he's socially accepting in order to spite her, it's very Pete.
posted by The Whelk at 9:41 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


While I agree that that probably was the calmest, most reasonable breakup we've seen on this show, and I feel bad for Abe getting stabbed... I do sort of feel like he was kind of a dick to Pegs there. Like, dude, if you were so deeply offended by your girlfriend's profession, how did you manage to deal with living off of the proceeds of her work? Did that not get your ethics in a lather, boyo?
posted by palomar at 9:43 PM on May 26, 2013 [7 favorites]


Also haha show you'd think I'd miss out on the callbacks to "the hobo and the gypsy" motif you have these characters, but yer wrong (the scarf, the rustic atmosphere, the drinking from tin cans, JUST SAYING)
posted by The Whelk at 9:43 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


I liked Margaret's slam on Don's parenting abilities.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:45 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Abe was jacked up and paranoid from the first stabbing and trying to fix a way to make himself the good guy in the situation. Peggy's been demonstratively unhappy in the new place and I think he was looking for find an excuse/way to break up with her while he stayed in the right.
posted by The Whelk at 9:45 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also she stabbed him. I mean, think of the relationshipfilter AskMe that would be.
posted by The Whelk at 9:47 PM on May 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


Personally I'm ok with the demise of Pegbraham. I think the writing was on the wall with that one for a while.
posted by sweetkid at 9:47 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


but now, TEGGY DENIED, STEGGY DENIED, DARE WE CONSIDER THE HORRIBLE REBIRTH OF DEGGY?
posted by The Whelk at 9:49 PM on May 26, 2013


THERE WAS NEVER A DEGGY
posted by sweetkid at 9:50 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's GEGGY next.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:50 PM on May 26, 2013


I long for STEGGY.
posted by palomar at 9:51 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


GEGGY is predicated on Ginsberg being biologically human.

Not sold on that yet.
posted by The Whelk at 9:51 PM on May 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


(While I love Stan and Peggy together I would be more than happy if they kept their sibling-esque friendship cause there aren't a lot of platonic m/f friendships on TV actually and I think that's a shame)
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 PM on May 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


Erm, how about fresh-faced new creative guy from CGC?
posted by Chrysostom at 9:52 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


I've spent the last three minutes trying to figure out what the -EGGY is if she hooks up with Pete again.

Srsly gonna be so hungover tomorrow
posted by sweetkid at 9:53 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


MATHIS HAS NO HOPE.
posted by The Whelk at 9:53 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


GEGGY would make me gaggy. I heart Ginsburg but I want to see more of him with the adorable girl his dad set him up with. Give the poor boy some life out of the office, dammit.
posted by palomar at 9:54 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


While the possibility of Peggy meeting anyone outside the office is slim to none, we can speculate.

For some reason I see her sticking in the Abe vein, but a totally non-political artist type who keeps her tied to the counterculture which she uses in her pitches and whom she basically funds.
posted by The Whelk at 9:55 PM on May 26, 2013


Give the poor boy a nice boy out of the office I say.

(and will continue to say, Arlene's swinger ways aside, still looking for my QUITBAG quasi-main character, sigh)
posted by The Whelk at 9:56 PM on May 26, 2013


I'm totally Marlene.

I almost think Geggy is going to happen. It feels like they've been lining up options for Peggy only to knock them down--Stan, now Ted. Geggy just feels right, in a lot of ways.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:57 PM on May 26, 2013


The relationship will be a contest to see who can be twitchier!
posted by The Whelk at 9:58 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


I liked the soap actress going "You're alone, two bottles of wine, a child could read that scene." cause that would be a total set-up to some lesbian making out ...on a soap opera, the kind of show Man Men is sometimes compared to.

So of course it goes nothing like that.
posted by The Whelk at 10:00 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


BEGGY (Bert Cooper).

Bank on it.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:01 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Ginsberg: I'm talented but twitchy and awkward and don't really know how to act in social settings cause I'm so bound up in my own internal issues of insecurity and feeling like an outsider.

Peggy: I also feel out of place and don't really get why people act the way they do but I also want to respect someone I don't feel threatened by or who can't possibly fill a fatherly role for me.
posted by The Whelk at 10:02 PM on May 26, 2013


ALSO anyone notice Peggy's recent use of "I" statements and "You are feeling" lingo? Like I think maybe she's reading a lot of self-help books?
posted by The Whelk at 10:08 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


That's the thing--I could see them being really, really equals. They're both extremely talented at what they do (though Ginsberg has felt underutilized this season in terms of business stuff). They seem like they'd make the kind of couple who, in a few years, would go off and start their own agency.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:08 PM on May 26, 2013


ALSO anyone notice Peggy's recent use of "I" statements and "You are feeling" lingo? Like I think maybe she's reading a lot of self-help books?

Her "save your strength" line was so weirdly delivered I thought this would be a dream sequence.
posted by sweetkid at 10:10 PM on May 26, 2013


I don't not see it, if for anything that Peggy really needs someone not - this is an odd word- not mainstream. Not a WASP businessman. Not a Bob Benson. She needs a relative outsider like herself or she's gonna go up into her whole control freak head. Micheal "I'm easily just as crazy as you" Ginsberg would be a fit.
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Would Ginsberg date a shiksa, though?
posted by Chrysostom at 10:12 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


sweetkid: "I've spent the last three minutes trying to figure out what the -EGGY is if she hooks up with Pete again."

Preggy?
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:12 PM on May 26, 2013 [14 favorites]


I would totally buy Peggy trying out stuff she read in "The Seven habits Of Highly Effective People" out in the wild.
posted by The Whelk at 10:12 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


I always had the feeling Jewlish-Catholic marriages where a little more common than usual but that could just be me remembering things oddly.
posted by The Whelk at 10:14 PM on May 26, 2013


That's because Judaism and Catholicism are pretty similar, in terms of culture. I could see Ginsberg not caring. His dad would, but he wouldn't.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:27 PM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well yeah, a lot closer than mainstream Protestantism is/was.
posted by The Whelk at 10:29 PM on May 26, 2013


I'm starting to concur with this Geggy thing. He seemed charmed by his very Peggy-esque date back at the start of the season, and that scene had to be going somewhere.

Poor Peggy, though, seriously. Jesus. You know she only came to work because she was in shock and had nowhere else to go. This whole episode was a long nightmare, full of strange callbacks to old mistakes (no coincidence that Duck showed up in an episode about the end of Peggy's relationship, or that his scene was with Pete). Memories that won't stay put, a sense of coming unstuck in time. PTSD.

I suppose Betty's "this happened a long time ago" is the latest twist on "this never happened." Why did I love that scene, once it became clear that it was really going ahead no matter how hard I cringed? I think it's because Betty got to command it.

(Re: Peggy reading a lot of self-help lately -- I guess Phyllis was an influence?)

I laughed out loud at Joan's beach dress. It's not that it was inappropriate, of course -- it's that it's cartoonishly appropriate, the Joaniest possible thing on the beachiest possible day.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:36 PM on May 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


Earlier this season: "I guess I was just remembering when my father died. Any gesture meant something to me."

Tonight: "His name is Manolo Colon, he's an Army-trained registered nurse and he's available now only because he's brought my father back to full health."

Bob has two dads, just like Peggy!
posted by rewil at 10:54 PM on May 26, 2013 [12 favorites]


Wow, that Manolo Colon is a real miracle worker!

But double wow, that detail kinda tips me over into thinking that Bob is pretty sinister.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:56 PM on May 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Oooh, great catch on Bob Benson's two dads! He still may not be evil, but there's definitely more there than meets the eye.

And Peggy. You bayoneted your boyfriend for God's sake. Take a day or two off until you're ready to wash your hair and put on makeup again, sell that awful apartment building and get something you'd love to live in, and stay away from married men.

I thought Roger's daughter really overreacted.

Betty, don't you dare cheat on Henry again. You've got steak at home and you don't need cold soup warmed over. I'd say the same thing to Don, but we all know he's the hopeless case and you're the one who has a shot at happiness.

Bobby got more lines in this episode than he has all series.

I am totally not buying a Pete/Joan friendship. Forget it.

That crocheted jumpsuit...... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
posted by orange swan at 11:28 PM on May 26, 2013


some thots/questions:

a) was that a vietcong t shirt on megan.
b) wow, the margarine question was bizarre.
c) the sex in this episode, even the sex that could have struck one as nostalgic or sweet seemed genuinly sinister.
d) why does benson read as queer to me?
e) the first outfit that peggy was wearing, i loved it, but wondered about the connections b/w hard edged abstraction and decoraiton in fashion.
f) is this a show about the failures of radicalism--seriuosly, ginsberg, as a kind of tourist, and how he broke up wiht peggy, peggy's failures at class tourism?
g) the camp scene, oh, what the fuck happened with the camp scenes...
h) roger, roger not being close to kevin, not being close to his grandkid,
i) i really think ted is better than don, but that scene at the end, a little on the nose.
j) did the acting seem too forced, too arch, too self concious--too formal, as a kind of ironic reclaimation/genre playing with the soap opera form.
k) too many doors and too many windows...played out motif.
l) what does being present mean for don at this point?
m) bob benson is doing what pete wanted to do in the first season but better and more efficently--esp. the constant resume references and hints at good breading
n) some dark shit seems to be coming down the pipe, nothing is settled this season, it's just kind of floating around, hitting each other, colliding--that no one has been able to name the partnership is a big part of that.
posted by PinkMoose at 11:59 PM on May 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Pete and Peggy - Piggy!

I read this after watching - Dr. Zira on fire! So funny! Thank you for this, now I can start my Monday...
posted by ipsative at 12:58 AM on May 27, 2013


sweetkid: "I've spent the last three minutes trying to figure out what the -EGGY is if she hooks up with Pete again."

Nah, it should be PEGBELL.
posted by moody cow at 3:09 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Or PETTY.
posted by moody cow at 3:13 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think I preferred when everyone was shot up with amphetamines.
posted by crossoverman at 3:14 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


A couple of stray thoughts:

1) Okay, anyone could be cranky after a second stabbing, but Abe is a schmuck. Nevertheless, I want to read his article.
2) Given that the writing has been on the wall for Abe & Peggy for a while, I groaned when I saw Duck in the opening credits. So glad he's back for Pete instead.
3)The five Bobbys thing is the best meta-joke this show has given us. If they're going to switch to Bobby number six, they need to do it as soon as camp ends.
posted by .kobayashi. at 4:51 AM on May 27, 2013 [9 favorites]


Is it me, or is Mad Men (not just the major characters, but also the show) a little skeptical of political convictions?
posted by box at 5:38 AM on May 27, 2013


Can anyone find a good screencap of Megan in that crocheted jumpsuit online? I want it for my knitting blog.;-)
posted by orange swan at 5:48 AM on May 27, 2013


There's a recap/discussion of last night's episode in the Atlantic that talks about all the "finallys" that took place.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 6:31 AM on May 27, 2013


orange swan: I haven't found one yet, but if you do, please post it. The jumpsuit is driving me nuts because those flower motifs look very similar to an afghan pattern I did many years ago. I stumbled across this Flickr group of a Barbara Warner pattern book from the 70s. BURN IT TO THE GROUND.
Also, have you seen what Miley Cyrus wore to the Billboard music awards?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:01 AM on May 27, 2013


why does benson read as queer to me?

There's just ...something going on there! What is it? Is he a Machiavellian genius? A sociopath? A deep cover IRS agent? A KGB mole? A time lord! A genie? The specter of death itself?

Remember there was a whole kidding not kiddy theory early on that Bob Benson was a FIGMENT OF EVERYONE'S IMAGINATION. That's hw strange he comes off.
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


The Whelk: I still say Bobby Draper the one who's most likely to be a time lord. Which is why the camp is such a disturbing prospect -- he's messing with his own timeline by meeting the various regenerations of Bobbys.

Ooh, new theory: Bob Benson is the 11th Bobby Draper.
posted by .kobayashi. at 7:43 AM on May 27, 2013 [10 favorites]


That's why he has so many "dads" , he's travelling backward in time to try and meet his own biological father, who died of a heart attack just as man stepped on the moon.
posted by The Whelk at 7:46 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Benson is totally the Cheese Man in everyone's slayer ad world dream.
posted by Superplin at 7:48 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Who wears short shorts.
posted by The Whelk at 7:53 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Last week Stan got stabbed in the arm and made a pass at Peggy. This week, she stabbed Abe in the gut and he broke up with her.
posted by purpleclover at 7:54 AM on May 27, 2013 [4 favorites]


I still can't believe that Abe called Peggy scared. Woman is a trailblazer--living with him unmarried despite the protestations of her Catholic family and bought a house in a slum for him despite the fact that it's not what she really wanted. What a pig.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:58 AM on May 27, 2013 [9 favorites]


Also Harry is so sure he's going to get a partnership. What do you want to bet it goes to Bob Benson or something?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:02 AM on May 27, 2013


Being involved with Peggy involves a lot of puncture wounds okay.

I kinda wanna see Harry crash and burn in the most hilarious, humiliating way possible.
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 AM on May 27, 2013 [4 favorites]


Remember that one time when I was all "Abe's a Times reporter now, he's probably mellowed out a little?"

I take it back.
posted by Sara C. at 8:45 AM on May 27, 2013 [3 favorites]


Bob Benson's Dad returned to full health and was immediately run over by a bus.

Also, JOB BOANSEN
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:52 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


This episode is not very cohesive.

It's all about choosing sides.

The taste of margarine or the price of margarine?

Your daddy boss or your boyfriend boss?

Protecting the oppressed or helping the cops catch a violent criminal?

Staying with the company you've been loyal to through numerous mergers, or jumping ship as a free agent?

There are even Evil Twins on the show-within-the-show.

I haven't seen the whole episode yet, but I'm sure there'll be a "choosing sides" element to the other subplots.
posted by Sara C. at 9:09 AM on May 27, 2013 [6 favorites]


Your husband or your husband?

Your wife or your wife?
posted by Sara C. at 9:13 AM on May 27, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think that's it Sara C.
posted by sweetkid at 9:15 AM on May 27, 2013


So fascinating how the "lesbian coming on to you" scene plays out in 1968 vs. 1960.
posted by Sara C. at 9:17 AM on May 27, 2013


Has Peggy ever had a good week in her life? I'm talking a whole week, uninterrupted by work or family interference or stabbings. The violent moments on Mad Men tend to be strangely humorous. It helps when the injury turns out non-fatal.

I love Molly Lambert, but I disagree with her read of the final Ted/Peggy scene -- maybe it's just my ironclad pro-Ted prejudice talking, but I think he's really just trying to be faithful to his wife, even if that means pulling away from any meaningful contact with Peggy while she's obviously in distress. (I also, frankly, wouldn't blame him for being disturbed by "I -- Abe got stabbed"; not hard to put two and two together there.)

...I know Mad Men doesn't traffic in conventional cliffhangers, but I hope that the Stabbing of Abe doesn't come back to haunt her professionally and personally (beyond the obvious trauma). We know Abe doesn't give people away to the cops, but it wouldn't be hard for people to figure out if he actually does end his article with the story about being stabbed by his own partner. More likely it'll just go quiet, and then next season there'll be a really intense dream sequence involving anesthesia.
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:23 AM on May 27, 2013


Wonderful or cock-up?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:23 AM on May 27, 2013


Antebellum also refers to "Before the War."

Just...putting that out there.
posted by The Whelk at 9:24 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Someone in AV club comments posted a huge list of the number of twins/mirrors/parallels in this episode but it's not letting me think to it so poop.
posted by The Whelk at 9:28 AM on May 27, 2013


Rich partner or boy-toy subordinate? (Joan seems to have chosen pretty firmly, but there is a confrontation and an obvious side-choosing nonetheless.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:30 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


My new out-of-nowhere theory about Bob Benson: he's gay, and Magical Nurse Manolo Colon is his boyfriend.
posted by palomar at 9:32 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Bob Benson is a succubus Pete Campbell created while hanging out with some Satanists in the Dakota.

Hm, maybe that explains Peggy's entire pregnancy back in Season 1.
posted by Sara C. at 9:38 AM on May 27, 2013 [3 favorites]


Man, I'm still haunted by Joan's lesbian roommate. I like to think that if that happened today, Joan would've been capable of letting her down more kindly.

Manolo Colon got a suspiciously detailed name-check and description for a character who won't be important. I still ship Bob/Joan, but for all I know, Bob totally is gay, and that's why his (friendship? relationship? ...thing) with Joan works. If she wants sex, she can get it anywhere, but reliable short-shorted eye candy who isn't coming on to her is something special.
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:39 AM on May 27, 2013


Is parents coming by for prolonged visits a typical thing?

Apparently "Parents' Weekend" is a thing.

My boss sends her kids to camp back east, and they are actually FLYING OUT for Family Weekend. So, yeah, it's way a thing.
posted by Sara C. at 9:50 AM on May 27, 2013


I feel sure that we saw the end of Ted/Peggy last night. The fact that Ted was in a blue suit sealed it for me. (TLo, get out of my brain!)

Reading Mad Style has really made me hyper aware of costuming in an amazing way: That yellow and white dress Peggy wears in the first scene (yellow=allegiance to Ted) looks almost like armor -- except it's split down the front, leaving her belly vulnerable. (The same place she stabbed Abe!)

And the red star shirt Megan was wearing? It looked like she'd been stabbed in the gut, blood radiating outward. (Did she buy it at the Clumsy Symbolism T-shirt store, btw?)
posted by purpleclover at 9:54 AM on May 27, 2013 [4 favorites]


I liked Margaret's slam on Don's parenting abilities.

For some reason I expected her to say, "Don's kid is like twelve!" but then there's really no reason Margaret would know Don's kids' ages.
posted by Sara C. at 9:56 AM on May 27, 2013


Raise your hand if, when Betty was giving her sharp, meticulous, devastating explanation of Don's psyche, you yelled at the TV, "You only like the beginnings of things!"
posted by purpleclover at 9:56 AM on May 27, 2013 [6 favorites]


While the possibility of Peggy meeting anyone outside the office is slim to none, we can speculate.

I wonder when we find out that the radical priest from Season 2 (AKA TOM HANKS' SON GUYS) has left the fold?
posted by Sara C. at 9:58 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


purpleclover: "Raise your hand if, when Betty was giving her sharp, meticulous, devastating explanation of Don's psyche, you yelled at the TV, "You only like the beginnings of things!""

I totally did!
posted by Superplin at 10:00 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


"Your activities are offensive to my every waking moment. I'm sorry, but you'll always be the enemy. Oh, also, you've just stabbed me in the aorta and I'm bleeding out."

"Are you breaking up with me?"
posted by Sys Rq at 10:01 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


was that a vietcong t shirt on megan.

Confession: I was more taken aback by a woman in an old/worn/unstyled t-shirt than I was by what was on the shirt. Though I did note the red star.

Was screen printing symbols on t-shirts a thing yet in the late 60's? Most of the period photos I've seen of people wearing t-shirts with slogans into the mid/late 70's use iron-ons rather than screen printing. That t-shirt seemed really anachronistic to me, on a variety of levels.

Not to mention, where would Megan have acquired such a thing?
posted by Sara C. at 10:04 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


One more thing: I love Betty this season. I think she's come into her own in an amazing way, and though a supportive husband and more mature kids have helped with that, mostly what happened was that she lost the one thing that kept her going -- her obsessive control over her body -- and she realized that it didn't matter. I mean, it obviously mattered enough that she pushed herself back into the mold, but now that the world's universally acknowledging her beauty again, she seems to be taking it pretty lightly and cynically in a way that brings wisdom: "Oh, am I visible to you now? How nice. I'm off to fuck my ex-husband now, and trust me, it'll be emotionally good for us both."

This reading is, of course, skewed by wishful thinking and the need to see a character's arc tied up with a neat bow -- but I do think that the course of Betty's life, like Joan's, is trending towards greater self-actualization and maturity, and as a woman in my '30s I find this kind of story a powerful and rare thing to see. You don't usually see stories about women at this point in their lives (or men, actually, but there are always more stories about men, of course).

(Tom and Lorenzo's recasing of maiden/mother/crone into mistress/maid/executive, while actually a very apt observation, was another nail in their coffin for me for this reason. Mad Men happens to be outstanding at portraying the complexity of women's evolution as they age, and here they took a thoughtful, intentional parallel and turned it into another set of boxes to shove women into.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:07 AM on May 27, 2013 [8 favorites]


Nevertheless, I want to read his article.

Is it just me or did My Article come off as incoherent ranting? I think Abe has fallen off the rails a lot further and a lot faster than any of us has guessed.

That said, my thoughts about that might just be that his whole subplot calls back to a time when not only were a lot of New Left people becoming more and more paranoid, but several prominent leftists of the period actually had psychotic breaks.

Poor, poor Shulamith Firestone.
posted by Sara C. at 10:07 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Is it just me or did My Article come off as incoherent ranting?

It's quite possible that it's sheer lunacy. This, of course, makes me want to read it all the more.
posted by .kobayashi. at 10:14 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was rather shocked by what Abe revealed about his whole mindset on things. I mean, the guy writes for the New York Times. I thought his politics were more reasonable, that he was progressive and someone who would challenge Peggy and keep her from turning into some "I've got mine"-style Republican. Instead he came off as really reactionary and somewhat irrational.
posted by orange swan at 10:15 AM on May 27, 2013


Agreed that seeing Betty pulled together and so, so self-aware felt great.

Sara C. RIGHT? The shirt!? Like, that's what I meant: The clumsy symbolism store. And she was wearing it for herself; she didn't expect Don home.

There's a thing this episode with women wearing red on white patterns. In the first Ted and Peggy maybe-love scene where she's shot against that vaginal wallpaper, she's in a white top with red polka dots, as though she's been pierced a dozen times (Cupid's arrows?) Then we get Megan with the big red star, mid-abdomen.

(What was Joan wearing in her going-to-the-beach-with-Bob scene? I have to rewatch.)
posted by purpleclover at 10:15 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


I like to think that if that happened today, Joan would've been capable of letting her down more kindly.

I saw that scene being more about the time, and how invisible homosexuality was to most people. If your roommate and bestie confesses she's been in love with you for years, haha that can't be real, amirite?

Not to much Joan being a bad person.

I also think it's interesting that the 1960 scene is "I've been in love with you for years and have done everything to be closer to you" and the 1968 scene is "Let me comfort you/You're such a tease". It's the sexual revolution in two script pages.
posted by Sara C. at 10:16 AM on May 27, 2013 [3 favorites]


The clumsy symbolism store. And she was wearing it for herself; she didn't expect Don home.

I didn't have a problem with what was on the shirt so much as that she had the shirt. She's a red diaper baby. Her parents are communists. It's entirely possible that it came from her summer camp days.

That said, again, the shirt itself feels anachronistic to me. I'm sure Tom & Lorenzo will talk about that outfit. I mean, they better. They better not just spend their whole post talking about Peggy starting the episode in mustard and ending it in green.
posted by Sara C. at 10:19 AM on May 27, 2013 [3 favorites]


as though she's been pierced a dozen times

Wow, that is such a callback to all the St. Sebastian talk in the last episode.
posted by Sara C. at 10:20 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Rewatching Betty and Don in bed: She talks much less than I remembered. But she's still spot-on.
posted by purpleclover at 10:35 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Still haven't found a screencap of the crocheted jumpsuit, so I made one myself. That's a Mad Men style moment that will never get old.
posted by orange swan at 10:48 AM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I really want Bob Benson to be good. Anti-Don Draper? Full of shit but not destructive? Matt Weiner, you just snatched Good Ted away, please let me have Bob.
posted by purpleclover at 10:56 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm ashamed about how much I loved Detty Goes To Camp. It just felt so...right.

Also, I really feel for Peggy. She's trying to Figure Things Out (self-helpy language! trying to acknowledge that which she feels she should never acknowledge with Ted!) and just botching it all up. The fact that she works in Dicktown, USA doesn't help.

Finally: When Roger knocked on the door, my boyfriend was walking through the living room where I was watching TV. I yelped and he looked at me and laughed. I immediately said "Mike, thank God we don't live in a soap opera" and reached for the proverbial popcorn.
posted by mynameisluka at 11:22 AM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


I might have to eat my words on the anachronistic t-shirt.

I just found a photo of the Beatles from 1964 and Ringo is wearing a tee with some kind of logo that looks screen printed.

Here's a woman in a possibly screen-printed t-shirt in 1966.
posted by Sara C. at 12:08 PM on May 27, 2013


Screen printing was popular with the youths cause you could do it on shorts with equipment your art school had, for example. My friends still do small run screen prints for people.

Also I want Ben to be queer so I can cosplay as him at the inevitable season end party just by pulling out my Colledge blazer and two deli cups of coffee.
posted by The Whelk at 2:16 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Er, Bob, this is the problem with having an alliterative name.
posted by The Whelk at 2:23 PM on May 27, 2013


for example. My friends still do small run screen prints for people.

Yeah, but that's now.

I'm not sure silk screen tech was as ubiquitous or cheap in the 60's.

The only photographic examples I was able to find were for big companies and media campaigns.
posted by Sara C. at 2:23 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Just finished watching... I am having a lot of feelings right now. At least 44% of those feelings are about Bob Benson's legs. GodDAMN, Bob Benson.

BOB BENSON IN SHORTS. There was a lot in this ep that had me saying "what." but that scene should win its own Emmy, Tony, and Desi.
posted by psoas at 3:55 PM on May 27, 2013


Yeah, but that's now.

I'm not sure silk screen tech was as ubiquitous or cheap in the 60's.


Serigraphy is, and was, an art thing. The screens are entirely reusable, and there's hardly a thing in the art world that is any cheaper.

Andy Warhol much?
posted by Sys Rq at 3:55 PM on May 27, 2013


Zack Handlen has me almost convinced that Bob is gay.
posted by Sara C. at 3:56 PM on May 27, 2013


You think so? I just figured he was Joan's Joan now.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:04 PM on May 27, 2013


I'm completely torn about it.

On the one hand, his point (via twitter, not any published recap I've read) is that in the scene between him and Joan, she was completely comfortable with him and yet there was nothing sexual and no sexual tension.

On the other hand, I personally kind of feel like people are jumping to that conclusion because he's seen in a sensitive caregiving role, especially in this episode, and is willing to deal with things that Manly Hetero Dudes wouldn't. Buying toilet paper, finding a nurse for someone's senile mother, etc. Also, the shorts.
posted by Sara C. at 4:07 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also maybe because James Wolk recently played a gay man on Happy Endings.
posted by sweetkid at 4:15 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm basing my theory that Bob is gay solely on the lack of sexual tension between him and Joan, and maybe a bit on the shorts (have we seen another male character wear something so physically revealing yet? Ladies have been showing leg thanks to shortened hemlines, but men are still pretty covered up, right?). The caregiving aspect of his character hadn't occurred to me as a homosexual signpost -- actually to me that aspect of his personality reads as climbing. He's making himself useful to various people, currying favor, positioning himself as an indispensable member of the team.
posted by palomar at 4:29 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also he would look adorable in one of those tight short sleeved shirts favored by gay men of the period.


I'm sorry my mind was wandering.
posted by The Whelk at 4:33 PM on May 27, 2013


have we seen another male character wear something so physically revealing yet?

There's an early episode, either Season 1 or 2, where Pete gets dragged into the office over a holiday weekend and is wearing strikingly similar shorts.

Men wore much shorter shorts in the 60's and 70's (and even 80's) than would be normal now.
posted by Sara C. at 4:34 PM on May 27, 2013


I would like Bob to be gay because I'm dying for the show to find a way to talk about Stonewall, and I don't think Stan is coming back.

I also love the idea of a young, attractive, well off* WASPY executive gay character who is in his prime just as the tide starts to turn and life starts to get really interesting -- the good kind of interesting -- for gay men in New York.

*I feel like I remember Bob saying he went to an Ivy and maybe a few other upper class markers?
posted by Sara C. at 4:38 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


But also still perfectly OK with him being Tyler Durden or some kind of golem.
posted by Sara C. at 4:38 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


(damnit, all my upper class Ivy queer signifier tropes are like from the 20s. I can do nothing here!)
posted by The Whelk at 4:41 PM on May 27, 2013 [3 favorites]


Ah, yes, you're right. Pete did wear short shorts.

(The image is from a Mad Men/Arrested Development mashup Tumblr, but it's just so perfect.)
posted by palomar at 4:43 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Bob Benson up in the discotheque doing only the finest of cocaine off Candy Darling's cheekbones.
posted by Sara C. at 4:44 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Bob Benson is no party animal! He's having a nice relaxing drink at Julius' for some light gossiping before heading home to his do doubt hunky nurse "room mate"

(okay okay it's the 70s, there is some coke).

Actually, wait oh god how would that be for a B-plot, Joan and Bob don't exactly keep up a straight up bearding pretense at work but they don't correct anyone either. Joan likes it cause it makes her seem ..well not a single mom undesirable and Bob cause, well, beard. It's all going fine, so fine they kinda forget about when Joan through some misunderstanding invites the wrong people to one of Bob's friend's parties, and it slowly dawns on out straight laces ad-men that they're totally at a fag party and it just turns into a more upbeat The Boys In The Band.

And then Kurt shows up.

And then Sal in drag.

Your feelings would EXPLODE.
posted by The Whelk at 4:50 PM on May 27, 2013 [4 favorites]


New York's hottest club is "Arthur", opened in 1965 on East 54th Street by Richard Burton's ex wife, this club is an actual discotheque that really existed which Bob Benson REALLY needs to hang out in. This place has everything: Truman Capote, Rudolph Nureyev, and the first DJ "mixing" records ever.
posted by Sara C. at 4:53 PM on May 27, 2013 [3 favorites]


Bob makes me feel, mighty real.
posted by The Whelk at 5:13 PM on May 27, 2013 [3 favorites]


Between Bob and Ginsberg, who is more likely to be a serial killer?

Show your work.
posted by Sara C. at 6:35 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Bob for sure. Ginsberg can't hide his emotions or control his mouth - maybe he could kill someone, who knows, but he would just make it to "killer" without the "serial" part because he would give himself away somehow.
posted by sweetkid at 6:42 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Hm, true. I was sort of feeling like he's twitchy and flies under the radar and one day a bunch of girls would turn up dead and he'd be like THIS DOG IS SATANIC AND TOLD ME TO DO IT.

But Bob is much more of a Ted Bundy "help me put this thing in the back of my van" type.
posted by Sara C. at 6:45 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


well this got dark.
posted by sweetkid at 6:46 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Peggy started it by bayonetting a dude.
posted by Sara C. at 6:47 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


"Why didn't you say something?"

Like what, don't stab me?

That bit was definitely a send up of soap opera tropes, don't we think?
posted by sweetkid at 6:48 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Pegonetting.

Also...Thermos sighting. THANK THE GODS.
posted by mynameisluka at 6:48 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


I have to admit I have never even thought to look for this thermos
posted by sweetkid at 6:49 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I figured it was gone forever but there it was, over Peggy's shoulder in her new office. I am not sure why I love it so. I think for me it's an indicator of hard-working, conscientious set dressers.
posted by mynameisluka at 6:50 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


You know it's all a soundstage and they just chuck everything into a banker's box that says PEGGYS OFC and move it to the new set, right?
posted by Sara C. at 6:53 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh the other hand, actors Care A Lot about what kinds of things are in their characters' offices/on their desks. So it's entirely possible that Elisabeth Moss has Feelings about that thermos.
posted by Sara C. at 6:54 PM on May 27, 2013 [3 favorites]


DON'T SMASH MY ILLUSIONS, SARA!
posted by mynameisluka at 6:55 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


preciousssss thermos.
posted by sweetkid at 6:55 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Even if it's just on some Excel spreadsheet or in a box somewhere, to me the Thermos has come to represent the hard-working working-classness of Peggy, who just might be working so hard she requires ever-warm beverages on hand. Or soup.
posted by mynameisluka at 6:56 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Word to the wise, if I ever disappear and then soon after that there's a new Mefite called Peggy's Thermos, it's probably me.
posted by Sara C. at 6:56 PM on May 27, 2013 [4 favorites]




What is this I can't even
posted by mynameisluka at 6:58 PM on May 27, 2013


MY EYES SARA C. MY EYES
posted by sweetkid at 7:01 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


By the way. It has now been several hours since I watched this episode and I can't shake the feeling that the bedside convo during Detty Goes To Camp is among the most revealing, poignant, and meaningful in the whole series. It's really rare that this show gives us an "it's all come full circle" moment, and it was even better because I didn't expect it at ALL.
posted by mynameisluka at 7:01 PM on May 27, 2013 [8 favorites]


I am just so glad other people are seeing the greatness that is Betty.
posted by sweetkid at 7:03 PM on May 27, 2013 [4 favorites]


And given that this thread is titled "No one's ever on your side, Betty" (remember that?), it seems fitting that this episode gave Betty a couple of great moments.
posted by crossoverman at 7:30 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I titled it that from when Henry said it to her in the car after the "Bethany Van Nuys" incident. Interesting that a great Betty moment would then come in an episode essentially about "choosing sides," among others and within yourself.
posted by sweetkid at 7:41 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Elisabeth Moss's eyebrows and forehead did a LOT of acting this week.

(Seriously, I think she did some nice work.)
posted by purpleclover at 7:45 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I could write an epic poem about Peggy's eyebrows. There's so much there!

And yes, grow up Betty, in charge and self aware Betty, casually devastating old flames Betty! The message was clear, Betty has matured, Don has not and if anything he's regressing.
posted by The Whelk at 7:56 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Betty has matured

I don't know if I'd go that far. Her head was turned WAY too hard when that guy hit on her after the political event.

I'd buy that she's matured if she hadn't egged him on to tell her how sexy she is despite having three kids.
posted by Sara C. at 7:58 PM on May 27, 2013


She's matured, but she's not perfect. She's still Betty, just a slightly more reflective and less impulsive and reactive version.
posted by sweetkid at 8:02 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


She's a lot more self-aware and ...almost ironic with her image now, if that makes sense. She seems to be aware of this as a role she's putting on, and she's fine with it, and aware of how much it's just presentation and bullshit and not like a fundamental moral law of the universe like if she slips up and becomes undesirable it means she's BAD AND WRONG. The swiftness with which she started to get attention again, possibly from men who never noticed her before, I think lit a lightbulb in Betty's head - oh wait, it's just looks, that's really all it is, it actually has nothing to do with me- And I say this as someone who basically did what she did and lost a bunch of weight and dyed my hair and suddenly I'm an interesting person strangers want to talk to. Which made me kinda cynical about that whole thing. Which is a type of maturity.
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 PM on May 27, 2013 [6 favorites]


that's a great analysis Whelk.
posted by sweetkid at 8:16 PM on May 27, 2013


Mostly she just seemed like Italian Betty to me. The random dude hitting on her maybe sparked something where she was like, OH YEAH THIS IS LIKE THAT THING WHERE THOSE GUYS WERE ALL :O AND THEN DON CAME AND THEY WERE ALL >:( AND WE PRETENDED WE WERE STRANGERS AND WE TOTALLY DID IT ALL UP IN THAT PLACE AND IT WAS AWESOME except this time it was boring old Henry. But then, lo and behold, she meets a handsome stranger at the Esso station...
posted by Sys Rq at 8:36 PM on May 27, 2013


Elisabeth Moss's eyebrows and forehead did a LOT of acting this week.

(Seriously, I think she did some nice work.)


On this note, I'm waiting for Top of the Lake to get some MeFi attention. It is so good.
posted by invitapriore at 8:47 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


Today when I was out biking, it suddenly hit me. Betty will be pregnant as a result of 'Parent's Weekend'.
Just getting that prediction in now.
posted by readery at 8:48 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think that's a bit uncharitable. Italian Betty was restless and unhappy with her life. Camp Betty explicitly says she is happy with her life. Plus her spot on comments on Don, Megan and sex.

OH YEAH THIS IS LIKE THAT THING WHERE THOSE GUYS WERE ALL :O AND THEN DON CAME AND THEY WERE ALL >:( AND WE PRETENDED WE WERE STRANGERS AND WE TOTALLY DID IT ALL UP IN THAT PLACE AND IT WAS AWESOME

yea no.
posted by sweetkid at 8:50 PM on May 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


The thought crossed my mind, as well.
posted by mynameisluka at 8:50 PM on May 27, 2013


Learn another kids name? That is just asking too much.
posted by The Whelk at 9:08 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


On this note, I'm waiting for Top of the Lake to get some MeFi attention. It is so good.

But not yet, I'm only a couple of episodes in. That said, impressed by Elisabeth Moss - as always - especially her New Zealand accent.
posted by crossoverman at 10:35 PM on May 27, 2013


Betty will be pregnant as a result of 'Parent's Weekend'.

NO.
posted by crossoverman at 10:36 PM on May 27, 2013 [2 favorites]


AHHH ZEN BETTY AHHHHHHHHHH SHE HAS THE KEY TO HIS HEART! SHE KNOWS THERE IS NO SPOON!!!!

And the secret to Joan's heart is Bob Benson's 7" Short Shorts...

That episode was pure whiplash. I agree that there were definite Arch/Soap Opera type readings to some of the lines. It was genre-bending at its best.
posted by stratastar at 10:50 PM on May 27, 2013


Learn another kids name? That is just asking too much.

If it's a boy he can be Bobby Six.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:57 AM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's like he's socially accepting in order to spite her, it's very Pete.

Pete is Mad Men's Maeby Funke.
posted by drezdn at 7:36 AM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


They're hinting that Bob Benson is a constant liar, but he sometimes uses his lies to help people (like lying to get Joan into the hospital).
posted by drezdn at 8:51 AM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


It does seem like there is a little space for Bob to be telling the truth. Dad was sick, nurse got him back to health, Dad later dies in unrelated incident.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:08 AM on May 28, 2013


Like Don! But, not a dick!
posted by The Whelk at 9:08 AM on May 28, 2013


I agree, but it's notable that this is mentioned explicitly, after he explicitly mentioned to Ken that his father was dead, and after a long string of other white lies he's told.

Usually when the writers have a character mention that their father died, and then say the explicit words "nursed my father back to full health", it's for a reason.

That said, yeah, it could be that this is leading somewhere else and not "Bob's A Liar".
posted by Sara C. at 9:43 AM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


Italian Betty was restless and unhappy with her life. Camp Betty explicitly says she is happy with her life

Which is why she just cheated on her husband?

That gas station scene is pretty much a perfect parallel of the Rome cafe scene. Some random ogles Betty, Don comes in all suave and shows him up; Betty and Don have a fleeting roleplay rekindling away from their home lives; they go right back to being as cold and distant as they were before. The two situations could hardly be more similar.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:02 AM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


They're hinting that Bob Benson is a constant liar, but he sometimes uses his lies to help people (like lying to get Joan into the hospital).

I wonder if he really works there at all. (As in, he tells people he works there, people assume he works there, maybe he actually does work there, but he was never actually hired to work there.) I suppose Joan saving his job negates this, but it could be an interesting parallel to how Don basically bluffed his way into a job with Roger.
posted by anastasiav at 11:05 AM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think if that were the case, Joan would be shutting that shit down. She'd be the person overseeing hiring as well as payroll and doing the books. So she'd know that money was missing, that a paycheck was being cut for someone who was never formally hired, etc. Also, knowing that this is Joan's job at the company, Bob would be playing with fire trying to get close to her.

While I think it could be interesting for this to be noticed, and for all signs to point to Bob Benson, and for Joan to have a blind spot about it because he's been so kind, I think we pretty much already did that story with Lane's embezzlement. So they probably won't go back to that particular not-terribly-cinematic well. Especially since the only way it worked the first time was that it involved a beloved series regular and ended in suicide.
posted by Sara C. at 11:10 AM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


That gas station scene is pretty much a perfect parallel of the Rome cafe scene. Some random ogles Betty, Don comes in all suave and shows him up; Betty and Don have a fleeting roleplay rekindling away from their home lives; they go right back to being as cold and distant as they were before. The two situations could hardly be more similar.

I agree with you that the random/suave/roleplay bit is similar, but in Rome there was fleeting hope that the glamour and roleplay would rekindle something in their relationship, which isn't the case at all here.

Yes, I think Betty is both happy (or happier) with her life AND wants to prove something to herself by sleeping with Don, now that she's back to her new hotness. And of course Don will go along with it because he's Don.

But to ignore everything about the dialogue that happened between them in bed because you see it as just Betty being ALL OMG THE BOYZ LIKE ME is pretty reductive in my view.
posted by sweetkid at 11:11 AM on May 28, 2013


But to ignore everything about the dialogue that happened between them in bed because you see it as just Betty being ALL OMG THE BOYZ LIKE ME is pretty reductive in my view.

That's probably why I didn't do that, then.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:14 AM on May 28, 2013


anastasiav: "I wonder if he really works there at all. (As in, he tells people he works there, people assume he works there, maybe he actually does work there, but he was never actually hired to work there.)"

"Well, just a second there, professor. We, uh, we fixed the *glitch*. So he won't be receiving a paycheck anymore, so it'll just work itself out naturally."
posted by Chrysostom at 11:25 AM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Betty of the Italian trip was momentarily hopeful that her marriage could be saved. The Betty of Hotel Paneling has no such illusions that she and Don could reconcile, and I really believe that she wouldn't want to. But, I do think they both wanted to be less angry at one another, and for two people who don't have honest conversations with each other, sex is a reasonable way to accomplish that.

On this note, I'm waiting for Top of the Lake to get some MeFi attention. It is so good.

I watched it this weekend, and it was so good. Elizabeth Moss was just amazing in it.
posted by gladly at 11:46 AM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


A TLo commenter linked to a tweet showing both Megan and Sharon Tate in the same tee shirt. Outfit, actually. CREEPY.
posted by peagood at 5:03 PM on May 28, 2013 [14 favorites]


Holy crap. No way is that an accident.
posted by mwhybark at 6:15 PM on May 28, 2013


Thoughts about that:

1. What if Don snaps?

2. What if next season Megan gets pregnant and we have to go through a whole dramatic OMG SHARON TATE WAS MURDERED AND NEW YORK IS DANGEROUS AND I'M AN ACTRESS TOO thing? Because seriously Megan is kind of growing on me now that she has something to do, but that would drive me over the edge.
posted by Sara C. at 6:28 PM on May 28, 2013


I feel like the t-shirt is an obscure reference that's meant to send us crazy. I can't really see Mad Men murdering one of its characters.
posted by crossoverman at 7:49 PM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


What if Don snaps?

You mean snaps and kills Megan? Come on now.
posted by sweetkid at 7:53 PM on May 28, 2013


I don't really think that's going to happen, but it's worth calling attention to Don's murder dream in Season 5 as proof that the notion is not without precedence.
posted by invitapriore at 8:08 PM on May 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


Anyway, that's an interesting find but yeah I'm really hoping it stays in the realm of subtext.
posted by invitapriore at 8:10 PM on May 28, 2013


I don't really think that's going to happen, but it's worth calling attention to Don's murder dream in Season 5 as proof that the notion is not without precedence.

Yeah good point but I agree that would be a big DO NOT WANT.
posted by sweetkid at 8:11 PM on May 28, 2013


When that dream happened and I was convinced it was real for a few moments, my brain tried to figure out how I'd keep watching a show where the main character brutally murdered someone with their bare hands. You know, a show that wasn't already about a serial killer called Dexter or Hannibal.
posted by crossoverman at 8:13 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Now that I'm thinking about it, subtext is kind of a weird concept in the age of internet commentary, mostly because with a show as self-aware as Mad Men that is currently running it's hard to tell if something like this is a straightforward subtextual gesture or a little "chew on this, dorks" wink at the commentariat like crossoverman suggests.
posted by invitapriore at 8:19 PM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


I can't really see Mad Men murdering one of its characters.

Six Feet Under did it.

FWIW I'm pretty sure that's something the show wouldn't do. In fact I think this idea calls back to Don and the ambiguous thing he takes out of the desk drawer when going to confront Adam -- it's almost like they WANT us to think that things are on such a hair trigger that someone could end up dead.

But on the other hand, that scene last week where Don mutes out Megan after keeping Sylvia captive in a hotel room? That was pretty dark.

And again, I'll remind you guys that Peggy stabbed her own boyfriend this week.

Yet I'm pretty sure that Don wouldn't murder Megan.
posted by Sara C. at 8:53 PM on May 28, 2013


I'm fairly sure, though, that the shirt wasn't a deliberate message just to Fuck With People. That photo of Sharon Tate is pretty obscure.

Though does anybody remember that episode where they named someone in that oh so deliberate This Is A Real Person From History way they do, and then everyone on the internet ran to the googles and it turned out to be not a real person?
posted by Sara C. at 8:56 PM on May 28, 2013


MetaFilter: it's hard to tell if something like this is a straightforward subtextual gesture or a little "chew on this, dorks"
posted by purpleclover at 8:59 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I can't really see Mad Men murdering one of its characters.

Six Feet Under did it.


SPOILER FOR SIX FEET UNDER

You mean Lily? Or Keith (though that was in the finale montage and doesn't count)

That's not really the same, especially as it wasn't a main character who did it.

Also I thought that arc was a little shark jumpy.

And don't get me started on Friday Night Lights...
posted by sweetkid at 9:00 PM on May 28, 2013


I feel like the t-shirt is an obscure reference that's meant to send us crazy. I can't really see Mad Men murdering one of its characters.

I think, at the most, the shirt is supposed to do two things

1: Set of a visual parallel of Megan not only with a famous victim, but wearing very youthful, counter-cultural clothing

2: Paint a big target on her. No she's not gonna get murdered, but it does does give us the audience some foreshadowing of theme. Victim. Target. Etc.
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 PM on May 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


It's like underlining a sentence: Hey, look here, not at what the scene is supposed to about, look at the context we're putting people in - Shit is gonna happen to this person!.
posted by The Whelk at 9:03 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


You mean Lily?

Yes.

And, you're right, it wasn't perpetrated by the main character of the show/her husband.

I really, really doubt they would have Don murder his own wife in cold blood, just for a Sharon Tate/Manson reference.

That said, it would be interesting as hell if someone murdered her. Though I really think they won't go there. It would be too obvious to have a successful actress character murdered on the show at the same time the actual Tate-LaBianca murders happened. That's beyond "Sally Goes To Woodstock". That's like, "Peggy Goes To Woodstock".
posted by Sara C. at 9:12 PM on May 28, 2013


(Sally Goes To Woodstock is my new shorthand for "60s show does obvious 60s thing".)
posted by Sara C. at 9:12 PM on May 28, 2013


The T-shirt is an amazing catch*, and my mind is blown and ... I'm sticking to my guns. I think that it's a reference to the emotional violence that Don has done (will do?) to her. Abe gets stabbed in the gut; Megan gets metaphorically stabbed.

Bringing Sharon Tate's real-life stabbing into it seems a little gross to me, though. Then again, I'm sensitive about this shit. (If you say "drinking the Kool-Aid" to me, I'll give you a speech about all the unbearably awful stuff that happened at Jonestown. I am extremely literal and annoyingly sensitive.)

*You know, I wonder how much of these references are planted? Are there Mad Men recap moles who work on the show, and who, by some combination of pride about their stupid-awesome immersion in history and desire to ignite online chatter, drop clues like this into the middle of Internet blather? Or are we all just working for the show for free?
posted by purpleclover at 9:14 PM on May 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


Sally Goes To Woodstock is my new shorthand for "60s show does obvious 60s thing

I have to say that makes me proud
posted by sweetkid at 9:14 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I am extremely literal and annoyingly sensitive.

This makes you a great addition to our club you know
posted by sweetkid at 9:15 PM on May 28, 2013 [4 favorites]


Abe gets stabbed in the gut; Megan gets metaphorically stabbed.

It also calls back to Peggy's dress earlier in the episode, which is red spots on a white background.

I cannot WAIT for this week's Mad Style, and if they don't talk about Megan's shirt I will be even more furious than I already threatened to be when I just wanted to know if it was anachronistic or what.

(Which I guess the Sharon Tate photo proves isn't so!)
posted by Sara C. at 9:17 PM on May 28, 2013


Oh, and re the internet chatter and people coming forward with tidbits like "hey look at this picture of Sharon Tate", my guess is that, in that particular instance, the Sharon Tate photo was on a mood board or inspiration book somewhere, and it just so happens that this girl's dad took the photo and she recognized it. She has like 300 twitter followers. If she's a Mad Men "mole", they're not doing a great job of this "mole" concept.
posted by Sara C. at 9:20 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


I support this reason cause that's totally something I would do if employed to dress this character. It's too perfect not to use, a miasma of references and re-enforcing the youthful theme of the character while subtly doing some "wound, red on white" themic mimicking? I'd be all over that.
posted by The Whelk at 9:23 PM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]


Guys I'm reading Sharon Tate's wikipedia article and there are SO MANY PARALLELS to Megan it's crazy.

I mean down to the fact that Roman Polanski continued to sleep with other women after they were married, of which she said, "We have a good arrangement. Roman lies to me and I pretend to believe him."
posted by Sara C. at 10:36 PM on May 28, 2013 [3 favorites]


The Tate tata shot is from this shoot, which I first saw via this Dangerous Minds post when it was posted in late January. Then I saw those pics all over Tumblr for at least a month. I think it's safe to say that the DM post is a likely vector to the production designer.
posted by mwhybark at 11:28 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


Wikipedia pegs the season's shoot as starting in October 2012. Contemporary news reports have it wrapping in April 2013. This is the 9th episode of 13. So that makes it quite plausible this was shot in February or thereabouts.
posted by mwhybark at 11:39 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


If the Tate/Megan comparison is a deliberate part of the subtext, it might not necessarily be just about Megan. This whole season has really been ramping up the fear of violent crime in the leads' social circles; even when Megan is standing high atop her fortified tower, her and Don's conversation is practically drowned out by the sea of sirens below. Megan may just be a handy symbol for the potential victimhood they're all feeling.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:41 AM on May 29, 2013 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I think that's much more likely than "Megan will be murdered".
posted by Sara C. at 7:11 AM on May 29, 2013


Mad Style: He’s a walking Anthora coffee cup.

The final screenshot of the jumpsuit is just wonderful.
posted by rewil at 10:30 AM on May 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


It definitely feels like the show is building towards something horrible with all this foreshadowing, but we don't know what it will be.
posted by orange swan at 11:03 AM on May 29, 2013


I don't know what to make of it. I agree with the growing sense of foreboding, but there are so many other times the show has built that same sense of dread and then averted it. Or had it play out in a completely unpredictable way. Or had something really bad come out of nowhere. It's hard to tell what they'll actually do.
posted by Sara C. at 11:10 AM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't know what it says about me that I noticed that Megan was standing around in panties more than I noticed the shirt.
posted by sweetkid at 11:12 AM on May 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


T.Lo's "Bob is gay" argument jarred something in my head: could it be that one of Bob's dads (probably the dead one) is a euphemism for a past partner? He's obviously lying in multiple ways in that exchange for Ken, but I'm one of those people who really wants Bob to be essentially benign, so I'm kind of hoping that there was emotional truth there.
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:25 AM on May 29, 2013


hmm that's an interesting theory.
posted by sweetkid at 11:28 AM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Hm. I kind of feel like "uncle" or "mentor" or something would be more apropos, but since Bob is in a whole web of lies about father figures, it's really hard to say why or whether or how he would frame something like that.

I so desperately want a Bob Is Gay reveal which involves Sal, but I know word on the street is No More Sal so I'll just go listen to some Judy Garland records now OK
posted by Sara C. at 11:50 AM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Wait guys I've got it. Bob is Betty and Don's child from the future who was conceived on Parents' Weekend at Camp (get this) Bobby. This explains the apparent equivocation concerning the aliveness of his father.
posted by invitapriore at 11:54 AM on May 29, 2013 [5 favorites]


Or! "Restored to full health" is euphemism for "murdered to death."
posted by Sys Rq at 12:42 PM on May 29, 2013 [5 favorites]


Or! "Restored to full health" is euphemism for "murdered to death."

that's got a nice beat. I could dance to it.
posted by sweetkid at 12:44 PM on May 29, 2013


More regarding the whole Sharon Tate/Megan thing.

(and a little something about Bob, relevant because it's got my second favorite GIF of the season at the bottom of the article.)
posted by palomar at 1:00 PM on May 29, 2013


I've said before I'm not crazy about the introduction of too many new characters on the show, but I really love the addition of Bob Benson. And Ginsberg. Those two are just ace.
posted by sweetkid at 1:03 PM on May 29, 2013


Oh, and something I noticed from this week's Mad Style: Bob's body language is very closed off. In his scene in Joan's apartment, he's holding coffee in one hand and his other arm is held across his torso, hand in armpit. In Pete's office, his hands are clasped in front of his body. I'll have to watch other Bob scenes from earlier episodes, and I don't really know what it means for the character exactly, but it caught my eye and it's interesting to me in light of the overarching Mystery de Bob.
posted by palomar at 1:07 PM on May 29, 2013 [4 favorites]


Reading the style recap: Man I love the return of Hot!Betty and think it was worth the wait, but January Jones has a really flat butt. She must be skipping yoga or something lately.
posted by sweetkid at 1:25 PM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also: no idea why but Joan annoys the heck out of me most of the time in the office, but I love love love her outside of it. I think I just like the vulnerability of the accordion playing, Greg, fights with her mother, lesbian roommates, etc. It's just more compelling than the battleax redhead with swagger and accounting capabilities.
posted by sweetkid at 1:30 PM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Those shorts look bad on everyone. I was actually pretty surprised while watching the episode that they managed to make January Jones look sexy in them.

When I was in middle school, my grandmother gave me a bunch of my (way older) aunt's hand me downs from her tween years, and there was a pair of those shorts. I was scrawny and twelve and I still think they probably weren't doing me any favors.

And my parents wondered why I was bullied.
posted by Sara C. at 2:00 PM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Palomar, did you mean to link to this examination of the Megan/Tate theory?

I'd agree with everyone that the Tate parallels aren't pointing towards a murder, but for the very very persistent sirens in the two scenes with Megan and Don this week. Like, drowning out the dialogue loud (again with Megan being muted). That's hit-you-on-the-head-with-a-mallet level foreshadowing.

Bad moon on the rise.
posted by dry white toast at 2:02 PM on May 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I titled it that from when Henry said it to her in the car after the "Bethany Van Nuys" incident.

Huh, I thought it was from the scene where Henry confronts Betty about firing the nanny, whose name is currently escaping me.
posted by dry white toast at 2:04 PM on May 29, 2013


Also worth noting from the linked article: Janie Bryant tweeted that Meagan wearing the same shirt as Sharon Tate was not a coincidence.
posted by dry white toast at 2:07 PM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Janie Bryant tweeted that Meagan wearing the same shirt as Sharon Tate was not a coincidence.

So, at least we can stop worrying about whether it was a coincidence or not and start overthinking what it foreshadows ;)

I like T&L's take on whether Bob Benson is gay - and the image of Bob and Joan at gay bars in the Village is awesome. And if can somehow evolve into a Stonewall story next year where there's a drag queen dressed as Joan... make it happen, Weiner!
posted by crossoverman at 2:10 PM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


TRUST US ON THIS ONE: Joan would be treated like a fucking movie star at any gay bar in the Village she strolled into. An entire drag subculture would spring up directly under her feet; countless young men saving their pennies to buy red wigs and padded bras. It would be glorious.

I only want to visit the universe where Kevin is raised in a household with frequent visits by Uncle Ben, Uncle Marcos, and Great Auntie Esmerelda Fantastika.
posted by The Whelk at 2:13 PM on May 29, 2013 [4 favorites]


That Uproxx theory is incredible. In fucking cred uh bull.

Another point in the "foreboding murdery stuff" column: when Arlene comes over, she mentions she walked through the park, and Megan expresses concern about her doing this despite recent violent crime in Central Park. (I think she mentions shootings?) Watching the scene, I thought it was just a bit of filler about New York becoming darker and more dangerous, Arlene being a reckless sort of person who colors outside the lines, etc. But now I think it's at least a deliberate ratcheting-up of the foreboding. If not something more.

More "mistaken identity" fodder: Megan is currently playing twins on the soap opera.

Think, too, of all the female characters wearing virtually identical outfits over the course of the season.
posted by Sara C. at 2:24 PM on May 29, 2013


I think T&Lo did a great job this time. Credit where it's due.
posted by sweetkid at 2:25 PM on May 29, 2013 [2 favorites]



More "mistaken identity" fodder: Megan is currently playing twins on the soap opera.


Also the doubling theme in the season opener!
posted by sweetkid at 2:26 PM on May 29, 2013


Palomar, did you mean to link to this examination of the Megan/Tate theory?

Yup, that's the one I meant. Derp! Thanks! :)
posted by palomar at 2:26 PM on May 29, 2013


I like imagining that offscreen, when they were filming the twin scene and said to Megan, "you've gotta make these women different, honey," Jon Hamm was thinking, "Yeah, that's why I do the lil bit of genius with my eyebrows when I play Dick! And my scrunchy shoulders! I totally got this!"
posted by sweetkid at 2:28 PM on May 29, 2013 [5 favorites]


Hear hear on T&Lo.
posted by Sara C. at 2:28 PM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


I wonder if the "make them more different" piece of direction is a dig at someone who also plays dual roles on a certain TV series they've been working on for 6 years now?
posted by Sara C. at 2:31 PM on May 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I was thinking about that, too.
posted by sweetkid at 2:32 PM on May 29, 2013


You mean Hannah Montana?
posted by Chrysostom at 4:36 PM on May 29, 2013 [4 favorites]


For all the talk about how Hamm plays two different characters, have we actually seen him as Dick Whitman since Anna Draper died? (I forget whether the DoD thing happened before or after she died, but both were in Season 4 in any case.) The only thing that comes close is when he's freaking out about losing his lighter in the Season 6 première.
posted by dry white toast at 4:49 PM on May 29, 2013


I still find it weird to think about them being considered two different characters. They're the same character at two different stages in life (albeit one's under an assumed name).
posted by psoas at 7:57 AM on May 30, 2013




every time I see pics of Sharon Tate, I just think man, she was so beautiful. What a horrible tragic waste (and she was pregnant to boot).
posted by sweetkid at 10:25 AM on May 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


I will be convinced of this theory when Gene starts shouting REDRUM REDRUM all the time.
posted by The Whelk at 10:30 AM on May 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was just thinking about the pregnancy thing. Her being pregnant is part of what made her murder so terrible and gruesome, and this is coming at a time when having children is on Megan's mind (or at least it was, earlier in the season). It's definitely on the fringe of the whole constellation of imagery and associations surrounding that shirt, but it's there.
posted by invitapriore at 10:33 AM on May 30, 2013


I also wonder, would someone in 1969 have considered Sharon Tate's murder of a piece with the assassinations of MLK and RFK? I mean, obviously they were in very different contexts doing very different things, but in the sense of "all our public figures are getting killed"? Because on the one hand that's what it seems like in retrospect, but on the other hand the nature of how each of those people died combined with the fact that 1968 was kind of a year unto itself in a lot of ways seems to work against that idea.
posted by invitapriore at 10:40 AM on May 30, 2013


I don't think so, was Sharon Tate nearly as well known as MLK and RFK? And certainly nowhere near as influential for most people.

I mean I was born much later and found out about Manson long after the murders but I would guess there was more attention put on the weird craziness of Manson and his followers than actual grieving for Sharon Tate, her baby and friends (an awesome trend of focusing on murderers and making them into celebrities that continues to this day!)
posted by sweetkid at 10:46 AM on May 30, 2013


I recently read The White Album, Joan Didion's book about Los Angeles in the late 60's.

Granted it was published in 1979, and it's from the perspective of a Californian writing about Los Angeles, so it's unlikely to explicitly take the thesis that horrible tragedies like the Sharon Tate murders can be lumped in with political assassinations. But from that book, my takeaway was that the Tate-LaBianca murders were more lumped in with free/open 60's culture gone bad, the end of an era, the decay of Camelot, and more of the Altamont/rock star drug overdoses/hippies on speed type cultural motifs. I mean, I guess you can say that the MLK and RFK assassinations are also often lumped in with those cultural themes. But I didn't get the sense that Sharon Tate's murder was felt in the same way as those assassinations, across the country. Instead it was more about people starting to feel unsure of their own safety, on a personal level.

I can definitely see people like the central Mad Men characters seeing those murders as a reason to become more closed off from the public, and possibly move out of a somewhat insecure building where just anybody can be in the elevator*, elevators open directly into apartments, doormen don't question visitors who seem like they belong, etc. Because that sense of trusting and "they seemed like they fit in" is exactly what enabled the Tate murders.

*Now that we're in a tizzy over Megan's ominous t-shirt, those girls who wanted autographs in the elevator seem less benign.
posted by Sara C. at 10:50 AM on May 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


Wait that last paragraph now makes no sense because I switched it from being about Megan specifically to being about "Mad Men characters". I'm not going to edit it because I'd have to change the content too much to be really kosher, but hopefully yall see what I mean?
posted by Sara C. at 10:51 AM on May 30, 2013


Oh my god the Grantland piece issued a not entirely tongue in cheek spoiler alert for Valley Of The Dolls.

I am so over Spoiler Alerts.
posted by Sara C. at 11:04 AM on May 30, 2013


hippies on speed

Now there's an angle to consider. The Manson family were indeed on speed when they committed those murders. Mad Men just did a whole episode all about speed. Who do we know who doesn't like Megan, who runs in the sort of circles Dr. Feelgood operated (ctrl-F "Nelson Rockefeller" on that wiki page), and who has recently exhibited symptoms of amphetamine use such as impulsive decision-making and marked weight-loss?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:06 AM on May 30, 2013


Betty is not going to murder Megan.
posted by Sara C. at 11:07 AM on May 30, 2013 [6 favorites]


BTW I totally recommend folks tracking down the Didion essay "The White Album" which the book is titled after for this part of the 60's and a lot of the themes of this season.

In my fantasies, every season when the writers reconvene after their hiatus, they get a packet of research materials to look through for themes, inspiration, and a sort of narrative throughline of what that year/micro-period was like. If that's the case, I would bet money that "The White Album" was required reading this year.
posted by Sara C. at 11:10 AM on May 30, 2013


Don kills Betty thinking she's Megan thanks to all the wig-swapping going around.
posted by The Whelk at 11:10 AM on May 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


I totally recommend folks tracking down the Didion essay "The White Album" which the book is titled after for this part of the 60's and a lot of the themes of this season.

yes, Professor.

Not sarcastic I think that's an excellent suggestion.
posted by sweetkid at 11:14 AM on May 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


I SHIP ME/BOB BENSON'S SHORTS

MORTS
posted by fight or flight at 12:08 PM on May 30, 2013 [5 favorites]


I really enjoy all the links to other posts and discussions, so thanks folks. It's a long week between episodes, and it helps bide the time and gives me more to look for on the Sunday morning re-watch.

And it adds a little, je ne sais quoi - a frisson? - (as Collette would say) seeing commenters on other sites who happen to have Mad Men Yourself avatars. I just checked out the outfits there, and it would only let me go so far along in dressing as Grandma Ida. No red star tee shirt or orange crochet jumpsuit either. Or thermos - but I was able to put down Betty's shotgun and grab Ben Benson's Anthora coffee cup, so I did. I wonder when that appeared as an option?

Not to take away from all the intelligent, insightful and well-thought out points being made here, but um... it would be ever so helpful in reading this thread if I could picture you all...
posted by peagood at 12:11 PM on May 30, 2013


Guys I'm actually browsing the used tie rack at my total thrift shop on the look out for one of Bob's ties so I can complete the look. (And also narrowing down which delis near me still use those Anthora coffee cups.)
posted by The Whelk at 12:11 PM on May 30, 2013 [3 favorites]


No red star tee shirt or orange crochet jumpsuit either.

Are they still adding stuff to the Mad Men Yourself thing? It came out to coincide with the beginning of either season 2 or 3 and so IIRC has a very early 60's cast to all the clothing choices. I would love them to update it now that THE SIXTIES ARE HERE.
posted by Sara C. at 12:24 PM on May 30, 2013




invitapriore: I also wonder, would someone in 1969 have considered Sharon Tate's murder of a piece with the assassinations of MLK and RFK? I mean, obviously they were in very different contexts doing very different things, but in the sense of "all our public figures are getting killed"? Because on the one hand that's what it seems like in retrospect, but on the other hand the nature of how each of those people died combined with the fact that 1968 was kind of a year unto itself in a lot of ways seems to work against that idea.

I was just asking my mother (b. 1950) a very similar question. (She does not watch Mad Men, finds it boring, partly because she thinks Don is so terrible, and he's exactly the kind of The Man figure that she and the other hippies were not interested in.)

In 1968, she turned 18, and she says the world really, truly did seem to be spinning out of control. Her parents' generation (even though they lived through the Great-fucking-Depression and World War II) really felt like they had a handle on what it meant to be an adult and have an adult life, and that had a lot to do with getting up in the morning, and putting on your suit, and kissing your wife ("you" were a dude, of course) or (if you were a woman), going off to your schoolteacher job, and you'd work at the same insurance company for your whole life. And then 1968 happened and everyone was like, "Oh, fuck, what is this?"

She says that the sort of chaos that people were feeling about the Entire World Order was what made the young adults who got involved in the Manson family vulnerable to Manson's murderous nuttery. Like, there really might not be a tomorrow. She followed the murders avidly, with a sense of both horror and fascination. She remembers it as the first time there was a crime committed that no one seemed to know what to do with; there was no neat explanation, and the adults around her seemed genuinely freaked out by it. It was a new kind of crime, and it was covered in the media in a new way. It did seem connected to the MLK and RFK assassinations, loosely, in an everything-is-spinning-wildly way.

Of course, she also grew up in Dallas, so was 13 at the time of the JFK assassination (it was a huge deal everywhere; it was earthshaking in Dallas), and she said she thought that regular assassinations were simply the way the world worked. She thought it was relatively normal for everything to be so scary and unsettled.

I think I'm not conveying our conversation very well, but to answer your question: Yes, my mother felt like Sharon Tate's murder (and the rest of them), were part of the same groundswell of confusion and chaos that started with the wave of assassinations, and, of course, the mounting awfulness of Vietnam.
posted by purpleclover at 1:21 PM on May 30, 2013 [6 favorites]


She says that the sort of chaos that people were feeling about the Entire World Order was what made the young adults who got involved in the Manson family vulnerable to Manson's murderous nuttery.

This makes a lot of sense. It's worth noting that the actual murdery part of the Manson family situation happened in 1969. You can imagine vulnerable kids seeing the world of 1968 and finding some kind of bizarre logic in Manson's ideas. As batshit as they seem now.

(Growing up hearing about Manson in the 90s, I had no idea about the race war stuff and thought they were just crazy druggies or psychos or something. As an adult learning about the racial angle probably around the time that, for example, Barack Obama was first seeming like a viable presidential candidate, it just seemed totally insane that anyone could think that way. I have no idea if this means anything or contributes to the discussion at all, it's just something I think about a lot. Especially wrt to the way that Manson himself is sometimes romanticized in pop culture.)
posted by Sara C. at 1:34 PM on May 30, 2013


So, guys, this Megan T Shirt Conspiracy has completely reopened my fascination with the Manson Family murders, and I'm not entirely proud to admit I've spent a lot of the afternoon reading Wikipedia entries on the crimes.

But I figured I'd bring to your attention the fact that the murder weapons in the LaBianca murders the night after Sharon Tate's murder were a bayonet and a kitchen knife.

I'm pretty much 100% sure at this point that Sunday's episode completely sidesteps all this and we never hear anything about it ever again. I predict that this week's episode is going to be about Pete's wacky family adventures.
posted by Sara C. at 3:41 PM on May 30, 2013 [4 favorites]


The next episode is just Don drinking silently and staring into the middle distance for a soild 45 minutes.
posted by The Whelk at 3:50 PM on May 30, 2013 [6 favorites]


Seriously, the only payoff that would support this level of feverish interest is Bob Benson walking out of the elevator into a completely blood drenched office hallway like a reverse Shining thing.
posted by The Whelk at 3:56 PM on May 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


No, Bob is already in the hallway, covered in the blood of innocents.
posted by crossoverman at 4:26 PM on May 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


The Whelk, no need to ID the deli holdouts. You can have your own forever! Take two, so you can offer one to a friend!
posted by mwhybark at 7:09 PM on May 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


I used to have a source for the Greek coffee cups, but it seems to have slipped by me. There's a restaurant supply store somewhere that still does them.
posted by Sara C. at 7:23 PM on May 30, 2013 [2 favorites]




The Whelk, where is this party, I feel like I should come. Bring me
posted by sweetkid at 8:23 PM on May 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


Solo still makes the Greek paper cups. You can buy them on the internet.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:30 PM on May 30, 2013


Unfortunately the floating time travel party is only one I occasionally step into, possibly cause I dress like I'm ready to be blown into 1947 at any moment.

Oh the extra creepy thing I forgot to mention at the time - I was walking around the new displays (again, containing the shirt, pants, and bag I was currently wearing) and the Victory Belles launched into "Long, Long Time" - a favorite of mine and one that had used as a background motif in the story I finished writing just hours before visiting.
posted by The Whelk at 8:37 PM on May 30, 2013






The next episode is called "A Tale of Two Cities." The Dickens book has a few threads similar to Mad Men... Twins (or at least, people that look alike), like in the last episode, and an era of revolution.
posted by drezdn at 5:13 PM on May 31, 2013


And affluent French people getting murdered?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:19 PM on May 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


Oh man, drezdn, well spotted! I'm not sure where to take that, but given how conscious the costuming is (as we've just been seeing), I'm going to stow it away for later.
posted by thesmallmachine at 5:42 PM on May 31, 2013


It was the best of Bob Bensons, it was the worst of Bob Bensons....
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:56 PM on May 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


Sylvia's kid is in Paris, which is specifically in the middle of an uprising. (Not just "the world on the verge of revolution", but, like, specifically one of the cities in "A Tale...")

I wonder if something's going down chez Rosen?

Another guess is that the "two cities" isn't so much two literal cities, but also the split nature of New York. The haves and have nots. Jacob Riis' "How The Other Half Lives".

Which is another split personality/double life angle.
posted by Sara C. at 7:04 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


Maybe it'll be about Ken setting up a Detroit office.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:52 AM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


I was thinking Detroit too, but has the '68 Democratic Convention in Chicago happened yet in the Madiverse? (Looks like it happened at the end of August)
posted by drezdn at 9:03 AM on June 1, 2013


I've been trying to figure out how they'd deal with Chicago. There's really nobody in the cast who would be a natural fit for being there, or being involved in any way, or at this point even caring much about it. My theory was that Abe would go cover it, and that would be his big send-off with the spiraling into paranoia and obvious irreconcilable differences with Peggy. But they kind of already did that.
posted by Sara C. at 10:07 AM on June 1, 2013


Oh this is gonna be allllllll about Bob!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:00 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Just noticed that in a posted in tonight's Mad TLOunge, the hotel room, and Joan in it, reminds me very much of the room Don kept Sylvia in. Was it the same one? I'm not sure. I don't think it has any particular meaning beyond that it's probably a convenient trysting place favoured by Don and Roger's ilk.
posted by peagood at 7:03 PM on June 2, 2013


Slattery directed this. I'm watching at my parents' and ordered everyone to not talk but who knows what will happen.
posted by sweetkid at 7:06 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Ruh roh...
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:08 PM on June 2, 2013


Ah I'm in a different time zone and traveling ah I'll come back after I've seen it but if we get Fabolous Bob Benson just contact me via the KGB radio implants in my wisdom teeth.
posted by The Whelk at 7:08 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


OK, I didn't watch Game of Thrones tonight but if we're in for another slaughter here I think the Internets will break down.
posted by rewil at 7:10 PM on June 2, 2013


Bob Benson welcomes this chance to shine.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:13 PM on June 2, 2013 [6 favorites]


I love Joan and Peggy being friends. And Joan actually doing partner work.
posted by sweetkid at 7:13 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Bob Benson seemed a lot like Brody from Homeland in that scene.
posted by dry white toast at 7:14 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


punch buggy
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:14 PM on June 2, 2013


Kartheisers timing on the "new business? I don't want that," excellent.
posted by sweetkid at 7:15 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


Harry Crane looks like the guy from Josie and the Pussycats.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:15 PM on June 2, 2013 [4 favorites]


Don in California. Let's watch what happens.
posted by dry white toast at 7:15 PM on June 2, 2013


Harry Crane, I can't even.
posted by rewil at 7:15 PM on June 2, 2013


Oh God Harry Crane looks like a Bond supervillain.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:15 PM on June 2, 2013


I hope Pete Campbell shows up to the Avon meeting and is met by Roose Bolton saying "Mary Kay sends her regards."
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:17 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


So much to process from that one little scene with Bob and Cutler, I don't even know where to start. "And then you appeared..."
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:17 PM on June 2, 2013


Is Bob Benson doing Lincoln ads too now, or am I hallucinating? It feels like too much "tin foil hat" to think the advertisers are in on whatever this is.
posted by gladly at 7:18 PM on June 2, 2013


And Don looks like Willy Loman.
posted by dry white toast at 7:18 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think Keyboard Cat is doing the background music for the Smirnoff Fruit Crap commercials.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:20 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


Apparently riots and ex-wife sex are just the perfect relationship therapy.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:23 PM on June 2, 2013


Is it me, or did that seem like a final goodbye? (Or am I reading this thread too much?...)
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:23 PM on June 2, 2013


Okay, did people really watch the news this much back then? Whatever huge event is happening just happens to be on the TV everyone is watching.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:25 PM on June 2, 2013


Before cable, people didn't really have much of a choice.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:26 PM on June 2, 2013


Joan is bad at this
posted by sweetkid at 7:26 PM on June 2, 2013


Pete can close too.
posted by dry white toast at 7:28 PM on June 2, 2013


Sorry ladies, Skin-So-Soft is for CLOSERS.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:30 PM on June 2, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yeah, but the TV is ON a lot more than I would expect.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:33 PM on June 2, 2013


Friends schmiends.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:34 PM on June 2, 2013


Man, if Pete shows Joan his watch...
posted by dry white toast at 7:35 PM on June 2, 2013


Come on buddy, you're not Death!
posted by Chrysostom at 7:35 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yes! Ginsberg just went full Oppenheimer!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on June 2, 2013 [4 favorites]


"You gotta be in the right place all the time." -- Bob Benson
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:36 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Bob Benson is a Time Lord and his words are his sonic screwdriver.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:36 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


Danny wha
posted by sweetkid at 7:38 PM on June 2, 2013


This just in: Harry Crane's supervillain alter ego is called Salmon Ella.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:38 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Everyone who ever appeared in seasons 1-5 will appear this season.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:39 PM on June 2, 2013


I think I'm having a Sonny and Cher moment.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:39 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


You're all Harper Valley hypocrites.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:40 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


Wow, they really spent all the colours in the 60's, didn't they?
posted by dry white toast at 7:40 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


If someone invites you to a party in the Canyon the correct answer is NO.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:41 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


I am sitting through the commercial break being anxious for Joanie.
posted by PussKillian at 7:43 PM on June 2, 2013


Sorry ladies, all the colours are for CLOSERS.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on June 2, 2013


We already know Pete fights like a girl, so I think Joan's got this handled.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:44 PM on June 2, 2013


Oh, if it all came down to a fistfight I wouldn't fret.
posted by PussKillian at 7:45 PM on June 2, 2013


I want Roger Sterling to be my spirit animal.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Roger Sterling: LSD promoter to the stars.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:46 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Not cool, dude
posted by dry white toast at 7:46 PM on June 2, 2013


Doesn't Danny Siegel remind you of Paul Simon in Annie Hall?
posted by Chrysostom at 7:47 PM on June 2, 2013 [5 favorites]


Closed captioning just told me that the song playing is "Found Love." Don.
posted by peagood at 7:47 PM on June 2, 2013


Hashish Megans! It's like the Walking Dead all the sudden, which means....ruh roh.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:47 PM on June 2, 2013


We already know Pete fights like a girl, so I think Joan's got this handled.
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:44 PM on June 2 [+] [!]


No Joan screwed up here.
posted by sweetkid at 7:48 PM on June 2, 2013


I SEE DEAD PEOPLE.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:49 PM on June 2, 2013


HOLY SHIT
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:49 PM on June 2, 2013


Wow that was good.
posted by sweetkid at 7:50 PM on June 2, 2013


Now Bob gets Chevy, and we still have NO proof that he actually does anything. "There's that sense of humor!"
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:52 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


California used to make you feel better because Anna was there, Don.
posted by dry white toast at 7:52 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


I can't wait to see Harry Hamlin in Baby Geniuses 4: Bob Benson and the Mystery of Manischewitz
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:52 PM on June 2, 2013


"There's that sense of humor!"

That wasn't a "no," though, was it?
posted by gladly at 7:53 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Cali made him feel better when he was there first with Megan and that was post Anna
posted by sweetkid at 7:53 PM on June 2, 2013


Good point.
posted by dry white toast at 7:54 PM on June 2, 2013


That wasn't a "no," though, was it?

Exactly -- we still don't know ANYthing!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:55 PM on June 2, 2013


Shades of Peggy peeking over the office barrier.
posted by rewil at 7:59 PM on June 2, 2013


Skulduggery!
posted by Chrysostom at 8:01 PM on June 2, 2013


Yellow!!!!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:04 PM on June 2, 2013


I think Pete spun up to an EF-4.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:04 PM on June 2, 2013


I love how Bob's office had nothing in it but a record player.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:07 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


SC&P? I don't want that mug.
posted by box at 8:11 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Mark my words, Ampersand is dead weight.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:22 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


So Don, tell me more about how you feel about being replaced by an Ampersand.
posted by dry white toast at 8:26 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Funny how earlier in the season we thought that the Chicago DNC would be a wedge for Abe and Peggy, and it ended up being one for Don and Megan instead.
posted by dry white toast at 8:39 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


So did Ken move to Detroit? If so, I want to see the spin off show of Ken and Bob in the Motor City in the 70s.
posted by donajo at 8:43 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


Also, Joan initially thought the first meeting with Avon was a date, right? So I guess she and Bob aren't an item. Just beach buddies.
posted by donajo at 8:45 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]


There's something about Pete's looks - especially in sideburn + 3 piece suit mode - that seems very Nixon administration. I know that doesn't match up to his politics, but he really looks like some sort of Ehrlichman underling.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:51 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm feeling scared for Megan now.

Did anyone notice how the power dynamic between Joan and Peggy has shifted? Fascinating.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:36 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well, that was certainly a nice sedate mindfuck.
posted by palomar at 9:46 PM on June 2, 2013


What an anxious, jittery little episode -- so many awkward scenes that were painful to watch, and so much stuff that just felt oddly meta and almost fourth-wall-breaking ("Ginzo" as a fan nickname was pre-season 6, I'm pretty sure, but the question of whether Bob is gay is either an eerie coincidence or just a very well-planted suggestion).

I usually give Mad Men pretty endless benefit of the doubt -- I've never found anything to be on the proverbial nose, or pointlessly repetitive, and I've never had that "the scene of Historical Moment A seems obligatory and rote" reaction (I've always been staggered, actually, by how shocking Mad Men makes historical shocks). But I had this cringe-response to the Democratic Convention scenes, that they did feel awkwardly obligatory, and it was kind of the same with PFC Dinkins and yet another drugged Don flip-out -- for once I really did say all of these things.

Maybe I just felt uncomfortable because of the episode's high background level of discomfort: Don and Megan frankly telling each other the truth ("biggest mistake of my life"/"I hate actresses") under the very thin guise of fond humor, Joan and Peggy's tense fight in the lobby with Joan repeatedly physically restraining Peggy, Cutler and Ginsberg yelling at each other, the endless pathetic humiliation of Roger (deserved, as always, but endless nonetheless). It was like watching Extras.

I was kind of perplexed that Joan got such a good response from the Avon guy. She made some sharp observations and she's right that she's been doing accounts work since she was hired, but she kept describing her job and SCDP in the same secretarial terms she's always used (my job is to anticipate your needs; I can help you check out of your hotel), and her reining in of Peggy's rambling was unnecessarily withering. I feel like what's happening here is Joan trying to negotiate a new way of doing business that incorporates her traditionally feminine virtues, but falling back on the old extremes of the executive and the secretary -- hitting too hard at Pete on the one end and being too conciliatory with the client on the other. I was kind of surprised that the meeting was portrayed as apparently successful, though I guess it's also true that if I were a dude who wanted to sell makeup, I might look past a couple of false steps if it meant securing a team with Joan's presence and Peggy's experience.

I still hold out hope that Joan and Peggy will learn to pull a sledge together, though (it is probably too much to ask for them to leave these clowns behind, great though "Olson & Harris" would look on letterhead). Maybe it's better that they cleared the air about their longstanding differences and competition and unique capacity for causing each other pain. I can't help but notice that as time has passed, the apparent dichotomies between them have turned out to be illusory -- Peggy has recognized the value of style and self-presentation; Joan wants to excel in the traditionally masculine aspects of their business. They both feel guilty about accepting help to get where they are, while also feeling great pride in it. They've both had partners' babies.
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:41 AM on June 3, 2013 [8 favorites]


I was SO GLAD to finally hear Peggy call Joan out on the shitty way she treated her in the old days.

SC&P makes me think of A&P, or P&C.

Don dreaming that Megan's pregnant - more fuel for the Sharon Tate Conspiracy?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:21 AM on June 3, 2013


A couple of thoughts:

1) There's been a lot of metatextual humor in the last couple weeks. From the camp full of Bobbys last week to this week with the carping about the agency name and Ginsberg's questioning of Bob Benson. Which is just as well, because otherwise this episode seemed filled with unresolved tension. I spent the hour thinking everyone at SC&P were on the precipice of something awful.

2) I have to say I didn't really understand the heated-ness of the Roger/Danny exchange. I don't recall anything in their history to justify how personally aggressive they were to each other right off the bat. Was it just that each now carried the freight of a world that the other resented? Or is it just that everybody sort of secretly wants to punch Roger in the balls?

3) These ads for "classic" Mad Men interspersed in the broadcast really don't let you forget how much things have changed for these people in the last few years.
posted by .kobayashi. at 5:35 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


I have to say I didn't really understand the heated-ness of the Roger/Danny exchange. I don't recall anything in their history to justify how personally aggressive they were to each other right off the bat.

I didn't read it that way. To me it looked like Danny would have been civil (he was to Don and Harry) if Roger hadn't been such a total asshole to him. And I don't know why Roger acted that way. Every sentence out of his mouth was insulting. Maybe he didn't like feeling old and out of step and dealt with that by belittling a young guy who's succeeding on a level he never could?

Those short jokes in my previous sentence were unintentional. Really. Although I'm not changing them.
posted by orange swan at 5:59 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


That's fair. Roger is always kind of a jerk. But the last time we saw Roger be that much of an aggressive jackass was to the representatives of Honda, right? Of course, then he was feeling threatened by a different, more youthful, world view too.
posted by .kobayashi. at 6:14 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


Well, Danny is Jane's relative, so Roger probably thinks taking out his feeling of being out of place on his ex-wife's family is a perfectly acceptable coping strategy.

I have to say, I do love watching petty Roger in action.
posted by Superplin at 6:18 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


I would watch a Bob Benson/Ginsberg spinoff.
posted by drezdn at 6:36 AM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]


Shipping Bensberg hard.
posted by moody cow at 6:53 AM on June 3, 2013 [7 favorites]


I was wondering if they were suggesting Ginseng is schizophrenic in this past episode. Earlier, I assumed the "I'm an alien" thing was a personality quirk or deflection over his fairly boring life. But him cowering on the floor, talking about not being able to make it stop. . . has me a bit worried.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:19 AM on June 3, 2013 [7 favorites]


Ginsberg! Argh! Autocorrect fail and I missed the edit window!
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:43 AM on June 3, 2013


Yea I was skeptical about the Ginsberg schizophrenia theory but the "transmissions" conversation gave me pause.
posted by sweetkid at 7:46 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


Well, Danny is Jane's relative, so Roger probably thinks taking out his feeling of being out of place on his ex-wife's family is a perfectly acceptable coping strategy.

I was struggling to remember when he'd been on the show before, and then hearing that his name was Siegel vaguely reminded me: didn't he get hired because of the Jane connection somehow and turn out to be an awful, awful creative? I can see how there's no love lost on Roger's side for entirely professional reasons.
posted by psoas at 8:12 AM on June 3, 2013


I would watch a Bob Benson/Ginsberg spinoff.

Also not that I am an internet obsessive re attractive people on my TV, but I was amused to see Bob's buck-up speech to Ginsberg about the Manischewitz meeting end with "Come on! These are your people!" ...considering James Wolk is also Jewish.
posted by psoas at 8:17 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, they had to hire Danny after drunk Don stole his "It's the cure for the common..." pitch for Life cereal. Peggy was unimpressed.
posted by ChuraChura at 8:18 AM on June 3, 2013


Danny was there just to make obvious how out of date Roger is. And Don. The scene where they get to the hotel (OMG Harry's get-up!) it looks like both of them have a sick sweat sheen all over their faces. They're rumpled and tired. And besides Don's auto-pilot-looking-to get-laid, they do not connect with anyone. Roger trioes to talk about LSD but that gets nowhere. And that is their schtick, that's is what an Ad Man is supposed to do is pick up on the cultural zeitgeist. Which they can no longer do.

Danny is all peace and love and Roger just eviscerates him. After the last two episodes of crazy this was just off kilter and nerve wracking. Next week could be very weird.

The creepy thing about Bob Benson? In any circumstance he always has the exact same expression on his face. He could be a mannequin
posted by readery at 8:22 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Roger couldn't grasp the idea that a woman would be interested in Danny instead of him. And all he had to win her over was insulting Danny.
posted by dry white toast at 8:43 AM on June 3, 2013


Yeah, Danny was definitely underqualified for the job, and it was Don's drunken theft of Danny's one advertising idea that got him the job in SCDP. But I never got the sense that he was remained a truly awful creative. He was untested. He was out of his league. But, he took his work seriously. He became part of the core creative team. I can't really think of a single scene where I thought he behaved like an asshole. And when he was fired after Don & Peggy had their post-Lucky Strike "who can you live without?" discussion, Peggy began with "well, Danny, obviously." But if I'm remembering that scene correctly, she admitted that he was growing on her. Peggy doesn't take incompetence well. Danny also took his firing like a champ, if I recall, shaking hands and thanking everyone for the opportunity. And the firing was because of the post-Lucky Strike layoffs, rather than because of anything he did.

Here's my point. Danny started at SCDP as a joke. And when he left, he was still kind of a joke. But he didn't really deserve to be.

That's why Roger's unrelenting aggression seemed so weird to me. I now mostly think that it wasn't about Danny at all. It was just all Roger's bad feelings about LA, and the culture that's passing him by -- targeted onto someone Roger had never taken that seriously -- lashing out because he thought he could get away with it. Turns out, he couldn't.
posted by .kobayashi. at 8:46 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Everything about the California trip was meant to emphasize how things are passing Roger and Don by. Hollywood, and the west coast in general, seems far more adaptable to the quick pace of change. But Don and Roger had more in common with the old men in from Carnation.

And yeah, the thing with Ginsberg and the transmissions went by so fast, but it's problematic.
posted by dry white toast at 8:59 AM on June 3, 2013


psoas: "I was amused to see Bob's buck-up speech to Ginsberg about the Manischewitz meeting end with "Come on! These are your people!""

That whole speech was fantastic.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:16 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think Bob Benson here is actually sweet and insecure, difficulty trying to work this out...i think his ambition, for the first time, is written as tragic and sad. Wolk is such a great actor, and been on the edge of breaking thru--and had some bad luck, so this pleases me. (I also think he's queer more and more now)

I wonder if it would be too hoary a cliche to make it schizophrenia.

Harry's clothes are almost as good as Joan's blue dress--the power seems to have shifted from east to west, and the easy money of Dan Seigel suggests that (see Neil Young's After the Gold Rush)--Harper Valley in that scene was too much, as was the Alice in the Wonder reference, but Cali turning from Idyll, the refusal to escape death, the Norma Desmond floating was a terror.

Pete being turned on was strange, Benson in Detroit makes me nervous, the fight between Peggy and Joan was so intense.

It's such a weird show lately, unsettled, and unsure. exhausting.
posted by PinkMoose at 9:23 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's such a weird show lately, unsettled, and unsure. exhausting.

In other words, it encapsulates 1968 very very well. Remember, the theme of this season is "The Jumping-Off Point". The idea being that you don't know where you're going to land.
posted by dry white toast at 9:29 AM on June 3, 2013


Doesn't Danny Siegel remind you of Paul Simon in Annie Hall?

The whole party sequence is shot just like the Hollywood party sequence in Annie Hall.

(Why, yes, Annie Hall is my all time favorite movie and I have seen it possibly 500 times. Why do you ask?)

It could be worse, Slattery could have ripped off Boogie Nights, which was ripping off Soy Cuba. I'm not sure whether Slattery would have proposed it and been told NO SOY CUBA HOMAGES EVER or whether he's smart enough not to go there.
posted by Sara C. at 9:31 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Funny how earlier in the season we thought that the Chicago DNC would be a wedge for Abe and Peggy, and it ended up being one for Don and Megan instead.

I also thought it would be Abe who spun into a bad mental health place in its aftermath, but instead it was Ginsberg.
posted by Sara C. at 9:34 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


the question of whether Bob is gay is either an eerie coincidence or just a very well-planted suggestion

The fact that everyone settled on "Bob Benson Is Gay" in the last episode implies to me that we were all meant to arrive there.
posted by Sara C. at 9:36 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


Is it just me, or was everyone's hair messed up in this episode?
posted by Sara C. at 9:38 AM on June 3, 2013


New theory: Bob Benson is currently possessed by the dude from Quantum Leap. He's trying to right some wrong at SC&P* so he can leap home to the present.

*doesn't look like the company name was the thing that needed fixing.
posted by dry white toast at 9:39 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


more fuel for the Sharon Tate Conspiracy?

Oh, FOR SURE.

I shouldn't fall back down the Tate/Manson rabbit hole, but we are like 2-3 months away from Sharon Tate getting pregnant, and almost exactly a year away from the murders.
posted by Sara C. at 9:41 AM on June 3, 2013


I spent the hour thinking everyone at SC&P were on the precipice of something awful.

I was almost sure that Gleason & Choaugh were going to either pull out or poach the whole company away from the SCDP partners.
posted by Sara C. at 9:42 AM on June 3, 2013


Yes, the hair. It's like Don is letting it go a little longer between haircuts, vaguely attempting to be hipper, but winding up looking unkempt and greasy.

Megan will leave him and he will crumble.
posted by readery at 9:45 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


I also thought it would be Abe who spun into a bad mental health place in its aftermath, but instead it was Ginsberg.

I'm trying to decide what got Ginsberg going. After his breakdown in his office, I thought that his blowing up at Cutler was more from his anxiety about the Manischewitz presentation. But the DNC (or its place in the larger narrative of the chaos of 1968) could have been the trigger as well.
posted by dry white toast at 9:45 AM on June 3, 2013


But Don and Roger had more in common with the old men in from Carnation.

I'd say the prognosis is even worse than that. The Carnation guys are the wave of another kind of change that Don and Roger are missing out on. Nixon -- from Orange County, CA -- is about to become president. And further on the horizon is Reagan, who I think in the late 60's is either governor of CA or about to become governor.

Not only did the peace-and-love lefty counterculture stuff come out of California, but its opposite measure on the right did, too. And those Carnation guys are PURE California Righties.
posted by Sara C. at 9:49 AM on June 3, 2013 [6 favorites]


So, guys, is Bob being promised a spot on Chevy the show's way of putting him on the bus? It seems odd to introduce a new character like that, have the audience get so wrapped up in what his deal is, and then have him disappear into the sunset for no particular reason.

I mean, they sort of also did this with that clean cut young creative who sexually harrassed Joan back in season 4, but that was part of a larger arc and I don't think the audience really cared that much about him. I mean, I can barely remember his name.
posted by Sara C. at 9:52 AM on June 3, 2013


*doesn't look like the company name was the thing that needed fixing.

Well, sometimes Ziggy needs some extra time to figure this sort of thing out.
posted by .kobayashi. at 9:53 AM on June 3, 2013


Good call, Sara. Reagan is Governor, and in fact there was a big Draft Reagan movement at the '68 Republican convention. What the carnation guy said about Reagan and Nixon nicely captures how they were both viewed at the time (not to mention his line about the Democrats being finished...spot on).

And yes, California was the epicentre for both movements on the left and right.

Though, in Roger and Don's defence, their job is to sell stuff to both sides.
posted by dry white toast at 9:55 AM on June 3, 2013


My guess was that it was Cutler (who I think I called Gleason somewhere up there) calling him a hippie hypocrite who's happy to cash checks from Dow, and then he goes home and turns on the news and kids are being beaten by the cops in Chicago. Which I think would trigger all kinds of feelings in anyone who was in the place that Ginsberg is, culturally: being an ad creative puts you right on the bubble between The Man and The Counterculture, he's young enough to still be "don't trust anyone over 30" but probably too old to be getting his head busted in Chicago, as a white guy he's mostly an insider but as a Jew he'll always be different, etc.

Add those complicated feelings to the fact that he might maybe have some underlying mental health stuff, and what would cause most people to take a sick day and maybe fantasize about dropping out to live on a commune causes poor Ginsberg to start ranting about "transmissions".
posted by Sara C. at 9:59 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


Also, did anybody else get some anti-semitic undertones in the scene between Cutler and Benson? Something about Bob's quip about "raised voices" really called out to me as a weird shibboleth-ish thing for one WASPy guy to say to another WASPy guy about accompanying their Jewish creative to a meeting with their Jewish client.
posted by Sara C. at 10:06 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


So guys (yes I am bombing the thread with thought napalm from Dow Chemical) did it occur to anyone else that, at the end of the episode, Don hasn't actually made it home yet?

Which means he hasn't had any non-hallucination interaction with Megan by the end of the episode. I don't know if this seems ominous because we're all on Megan Draper Sharon Tate Watch, or because their whole relationship seems ominous and Don's hallucination shed a lot of light about his side of things.

But I'm a little worried about what Don and Megan's next interaction is going to be like. Their whole phone conversation re the Chicago protests made them seem miles apart, but the second Don's faculties were down he immediately went to a comforting domestic lovey dovey family place re Megan.
posted by Sara C. at 10:21 AM on June 3, 2013


I was almost sure that Gleason & Choaugh were going to either pull out or poach the whole company away from the SCDP partners.

There are other people that have suggested that Cutler at the very least is putting himself in a strong position and the SCDP in a weak one as the clients they have lost have mostly been on the SCDP side.

As part of this, it's possible that Cutler added Benson to Chevy to make Bob one of "his" guys.

As for Benson, he never actually says no when Ginsberg asks him if he's gay.
posted by drezdn at 10:24 AM on June 3, 2013


this largely themeless episode

I'm starting to wonder if Tom/Lorenzo and I are watching the same show. This episode was positively DRIPPING with theme. The theme they laid out in the previous sentence. Which is a direct answer to the duality of the last episode's themes.
posted by Sara C. at 10:25 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


As for Benson, he never actually says no when Ginsberg asks him if he's gay.

That struck me too. Back in the olden days, it was common to protest too much if someone accused a man of being the least bit "light in the loafers". There were soooo many ways to infer a not-quite-manly-enough status.

It will come up again.
posted by readery at 10:29 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


Then again, it is Ginsberg. I think Bob would have answered differently if it was Pete, Ken, or really anyone else asking.

I agree that it's notable that he didn't deny, though. I think he probably would have denied if almost anyone else had asked. Especially any of the buttoned up accounts people or anyone above him on the food chain over there.

Interesting how Cutler was all "WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS OVER HERE?" to Bob in the scene where he busts Stan & Ginsberg and has the big argument. I don't get the sense that Bob wants to be a creative, but I wonder if he doesn't hang out down there because the atmosphere is a little more relaxed.
posted by Sara C. at 10:34 AM on June 3, 2013


As part of this, it's possible that Cutler added Benson to Chevy to make Bob one of "his" guys.

That's absolutely what was happening. Especially since he had just screwed up (not really, but he went into Ted's office to fall on his sword).

It's interesting that Pete seems to be increasingly the loser in the merger. Bob was Pete's underling initially. Now Joan and Avon. But it's really hilarious to me that Pete actually thought, with all the alphabet soup to deal with, that he would somehow end up with his name on the door when the dust settled.

I think Pete is much worse at reading the tea leaves without Trudy. She was always his Lady Macbeth (not in a manipulative way, but pushing the right, mostly supportive, buttons to keep him moving forward).
posted by dry white toast at 10:36 AM on June 3, 2013 [6 favorites]


one thing I was genuinely curious about: what could they have done to Joan. Can you fire a partner?
posted by dry white toast at 10:38 AM on June 3, 2013


So guys (yes I am bombing the thread with thought napalm from Dow Chemical) did it occur to anyone else that, at the end of the episode, Don hasn't actually made it home yet?

It's not just that he hasn't made it home. They haven't even spoken. It ends with him asking Dawn to get his wife on the phone. His other hallucination was of a dead man. Ominous.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:41 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


I agree - since Ginsberg's ("Why are you calling me Michael?") comment is just an aside at the end of his meltdown, Bob can just easily deflect it instead of calling more attention to it.

All of Benson's and Cutler's interactions though for some reason give me a vibe that they have a deeper familiarity; it's as if they knew each other before the merger or have perhaps developed an off-screen (sexual?) relationship. The way Cutler pivots from Ginsberg to Benson had a strong sense of "I am having other issues with you, so I am now going to yell at you about this unrelated thing!"

Then the next scene with them their dialog seemed much more relaxed than it should have been for a partner interacting with an employee he just screamed at.
posted by mikepop at 10:43 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Then the next scene with them their dialog seemed much more relaxed than it should have been for a partner interacting with an employee he just screamed at.

Actually, that's sorta par for the course with a volatile boss.

To me, that scene had a feel of Darth Vader going to speak with Palpatine while he looks out the window, watching his master plan unfold. Cutler is definitely scheming.

Not sure about this, but I feel like Peggy and Don are the only ones Bob hasn't really interacted with on screen yet (Bob had that one "What's up, Don!?" line, but Don just ignored him and left the room).

Bob really adds to the aura of unease. He's helpful, but always seems a little out of place. You can't help but feel like whenever they hit the brick wall everyone seems to be speeding towards, Bob will play a big part. He's this season's Chekovian Gun.
posted by dry white toast at 10:52 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


So my theory: Megan is murdered--not by anyone we know, but by a random criminal who breaks into her apartment--between this episode and the next, and the next episode deals with the fall-out. There has been plenty of foreshadowing, not just with the Tate shirt but also with the sirens in previous episodes during each one of their interactions. This episode saw their relationship gain some honest and healthier footing (they actually seemed closer to me than they have all season; she's confiding in him, he doesn't cheat on her) and also saw Don's impossible fantasies with Megan writ large: she wants him to be a woman who will quit her job, have his baby, and move to California with him. But she won't, and we all know that. It's an impasse. One that can only end--somehow--tragically--despite the fact that they actually love one another, at last.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:53 AM on June 3, 2013


Incidentally, not sure if it was intentional, but did anyone else notice that right before he smokes up, Don sees a woman who looks A LOT like Megan (but definitely wasn't) get out of the pool? I wondered initially if he was talking to that woman in the hallucination and confusing her with Megan.
posted by dry white toast at 10:59 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


His other hallucination was of a dead man. Ominous.

I got kind of a birth/death thing there. I'm not sure if it's specifically meant to be ominous about Megan or it's more about the times. The late 60's were very much a death-and-rebirth moment in American culture, and this episode is all wrapped up in the specifics of that. We've been getting whiffs of it in every season before this, but now it's not a whiff, it's a burning pile of dogshit on your front porch.

I'm pretty sure that someone is going to die by the end of the season, but I don't think it's going to be Megan specifically. That's just too pat. I think the show is going to go for more like what happened with Lane, where they dropped suicide hints the whole season, mostly around Pete, and then SURPRISE there is a suicide but it's not Pete at all, it's Lane.

(I do think Megan is going to be symbolically killed off her soap opera, though, because what is the point of setting up a soap opera if not to go there?)

My theory is that Megan ends the season pregnant, because A) the miscarriage and subsequent "we should talk about this whole baby thing" conversation earlier, B) Don's hallucination implies that he heavily WANTS Megan to be in a more maternal/domestic role, and C) Sharon Tate duh.

Also Sally is reading Rosemary's Baby in a previous episode and you KNOW she's going to have snarky things to say about another Draper kid. There's also Glenn's reference to "they'll probably have a baby soon, you should ask for something big now," from a while back. And Sally's conversation with Betty re Megan paying her to babysit/Megan's whole role in the Grandma Ida shitshow.
posted by Sara C. at 11:07 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


I wondered initially if he was talking to that woman in the hallucination and confusing her with Megan.

There's also at least one hippie with long dark hair sitting around the hookah. I thought it was one of those girls, and that Don was going to wake up next to one of them the next morning rather than the absurd birth/death pool floating thing.
posted by Sara C. at 11:08 AM on June 3, 2013


Incidentally, not sure if it was intentional, but did anyone else notice that right before he smokes up, Don sees a woman who looks A LOT like Megan (but definitely wasn't) get out of the pool? I wondered initially if he was talking to that woman in the hallucination and confusing her with Megan.

Yeah, noticed that too.

Man, TLo is being needlessly harsh on Joan. Joan's pitch to the client was a perfect description of what a good accounts guy does, as we observed last season with Pete and Megan's dad. Yes, she later made some missteps, but that initial dinner was flawless.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:08 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Megan's hair and makeup in her first scene is styled to make her look like the Disney Snow White. I don't know what that means , but I decided it was true when my husband noticed it. (He doesn't care about hair at all.)
posted by purpleclover at 11:14 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Megan tells Don to go for a swim because it always makes him feel better, Roger tells Don that the purpose of life is to know yourself, Don ends up floating face down in the pool.
posted by purpleclover at 11:17 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


I also don't have any particular problem with Joan's framing of SC&P and her position there to the Avon guy. It reads as shaky to us as the audience because we have this whole history of who Joan is and where she's come from and what her challenges are. But the Avon guy just wants to be reassured that his company will be well taken care of. Whatever Joan says about that, as long as it's warm and reassuring, is probably just fine. And I would imagine that every new accounts person has to figure out their own patter about questions like that.

Though I do think she did wrong by cutting Pete out.

On the other hand, it's obviously true that if Pete had gone to the meeting and Joan had not, she would have been pushed out. And frankly it's good to see some conniving from Joan. Old Joan would have just sulked about it and thrown something at Pete's secretary later. Nobody has a problem with this level of scheming when it comes from almost any other character. When Peggy used Freddy Rumsen's alcoholism to her advantage nobody was like "PLAY FAIR PEGGY UGH SHE SHOULD BE FIRED".
posted by Sara C. at 11:20 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Though I do think she did wrong by cutting Pete out.

No, it is impossible to do wrong by being mean to Pete.
posted by jeather at 11:27 AM on June 3, 2013 [7 favorites]


My only issue with Joan's performance was that they did the whole meeting before Avon guy even got his coffee. She's clearly green (speaking of which: that floral print!) but I have high hopes that she and Peggy will refine their act, and Joan will figure out how to do the account man game.
posted by purpleclover at 11:32 AM on June 3, 2013


Another thing occurred to me:

Two of our clients this week are talking about or around "women in the workplace" issues wrt marketing their products. With Avon, they're out in front of it, trying to figure out how to keep a business model built on suburban homemakers without cars relevant as their customer base changes. With Carnation, they have a product that there is a need for (a quick breakfast for grownups), but they're not able to see the big picture because they can't wrap their brains around the idea of social change being a good thing.

Did it really take a whole decade for advertisers to figure out the "busy mom on the go"? (All my personal associations with that trope in ads are from the late 70's, early 80's Mister Mom era.)

Also, and more importantly, is it possible that Joan Holloway IS the archetypal busy mom on the go?
posted by Sara C. at 11:32 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


I continue to not understand how people want to champion Joan even if she full on makes mistakes. She flat out made a mistake by cutting Pete out of the situation. This is okay! This is a show about people making mistakes and feeling their way around situations. I think T&Lo's explanation of Joan's mistakes were pretty spot on - she didn't represent the company appropriately, she sold herself as a secretary rather than a partner, she undercut Peggy's attempt to make an emotional connection to the Avon product, and she shouldn't have cut Pete out, and also shouldn't have surprised Peggy with Pete's not being there.

The show framed the situation as Joan messing up, the characters reacted as though Joan messed up, and Christina Hendricks played it, quite well I think, as Joan messing up. She wasn't "being mean" to Pete, she was risking the account.

Pete has always had great instincts about business and has been always about playing by the rules. Sure he is annoying as hell about it, but it's sort of a dull reading of the show to think that Joan needs to be right about everything just so Pete can be unhappy or something. Pete's not a villain, I don't think this show is meant to have villains and heroes.

It's ok that Joan messed up, but mess up she did.
posted by sweetkid at 11:42 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


sweetkid, I hear your points, but did it not rankle you when Pete and Ted were talking to Joan like a child in the conference room? That's one of the reasons I can't resist rooting for her.

Also, had she not cut Pete out, there's zero chance there would have been any space for her at all.
posted by purpleclover at 11:48 AM on June 3, 2013


Can we not believe that Joan did wrong in other ways in how she represented herself, the company, and Peggy -- and in surprising Peggy -- but that one part of it (cut Pete out) wasn't wrong?
posted by jeather at 11:49 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


Pete's face at the end was priceless. He's the precursor for the rest of them. His tether is broken with Trudy leaving him and he's the first to be hit with the old reliable ways not being so reliable (Joan not caving and giving him the account).

Then he got high. He's going to wind up in the stratosphere.
posted by readery at 11:55 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


I also think there are a lot of complicated goals in her subplot, in general.

There's the Right Thing To Do in terms of the procedure for bringing in new business.

There's the Right Thing To Do in terms of Joan being good at being an accounts person -- the right answers to Avon's questions, the right way to run a meeting, the right way to work with the creative person on the account.

There's the Right Thing To Do in terms of being nice and a team player and selflessly being the bigger person even if it means personally losing out.

And then, of course, there's the Right Thing To Do in order for Joan to get what she wants in this episode and her overall arc this season.

All of those moral positions conflict with each other in this episode, and an element of Joan figuring out who she is (in keeping with the episode's theme) is deciding which of those Right Things is most important in this situation. In some ways, she chose wrong, but in other ways, she probably chose right.
posted by Sara C. at 11:56 AM on June 3, 2013 [6 favorites]


sweetkid, I hear your points, but did it not rankle you when Pete and Ted were talking to Joan like a child in the conference room? That's one of the reasons I can't resist rooting for her.

Yea of course. They were jerks about it, and it would have been different if it were Don or something. Then again it's always different if its Don.

As far as cutting Pete out, no she shouldn't have. Even if you don't like Pete, he was supposed to go to the meeting and yes probably should have brought Joan but they didn't. Don cut out Pete previously as well and got crap for it from the partners.

Pete's an Account man. That's like an actual job with different skills than creative and different skills than what Joan does, which she couldn't even articulate.

It's not that Joan can't do it, she would just need more practice, and you need an experienced Account person at a new business meeting.
posted by sweetkid at 11:56 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think it's an important character moment for Joan that she went bold and screwed up. She was so supremely competent within her old role that it took mighty strength to step into an entirely new one (it was an actual shock to see Joan tell Peggy that she didn't know what to do, and to see Peggy encouraging and advising Joan even during their argument). Some amount of failure is inevitable when people who've always supported others decide to take something for themselves, and the people who are used to being supported will be furious out of proportion to the failure.

The way Ted and Pete talked to Joan at the meeting reminded me of Joan grabbing Peggy in the lobby. The same sense of -- "I've let you have a long leash, but in the end, you do realize that I give the permissions and I'm physically stronger than you are?" It's upsetting when it's a woman and another woman, but when it's a woman and a man, it's a whole new cringe.

(Peggy may or may not be as strong as Joan, and she is definitely handier with a makeshift spear, but the physical intimidation remains.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 12:08 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


you need an experienced Account person at a new business meeting

I wonder how much of this is a callback to Lane and... was it Jaguar he was trying to bring in despite not being an accounts person?

In Lane's case, he was able to go to Roger and ask "how do I close this?" and Roger was able to just tell him and let him go on his merry way. And he kind of fucked it up but ultimately it all worked out. (I mean despite the pimping part and despite the fact that the Jag account is somewhat tied into Lane's suicide -- the bumbling in meetings and overthinking How To Close was a mess but OK.)

With Joan, it all has to be a big cloak and dagger mission and there's a constant threat of having it "taken away". And there's the notion that if she's not Don And Megan Softshoe Routine solid in the meeting, she's actually a big failure and should be fired.
posted by Sara C. at 12:10 PM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yeah, but Joan's in no position to be taken under anyone's wing (too old, too otherwise competent, too proud), so she's kinda screwed unless she just figures it out herself.

I can't believe the account guys really do a bunch of stuff Joan is completely clueless about. I believe she knows what the job is, as does Peggy, who also initially thought Joan could do it. How to do the job, which she totally failed at in this episode, is another matter.
posted by purpleclover at 12:12 PM on June 3, 2013


the notion that if she's not Don And Megan Softshoe Routine solid in the meeting, she's actually a big failure and should be fired

Yea I agree. It's interesting because I'd feel Joan should be more confident people would have her back since everyone sort of thought of Lane as a loser, but given that she's a woman and the way she got the partnership, it makes sense she'd feel shaky and even paranoid.
posted by sweetkid at 12:14 PM on June 3, 2013


I can't believe the account guys really do a bunch of stuff Joan is completely clueless about. I believe she knows what the job is, as does Peggy, who also initially thought Joan could do it. How to do the job, which she totally failed at in this episode, is another matter.


She knows what it is and tried to do it, but she couldn't. I didn't mean she doesn't know what the job is, she just doesn't know how to do it and has no practice. It's like when Pete wrote copy in the first season and nearly got fired.

Joan has people savvy but that's not the same as being a good Account person.
posted by sweetkid at 12:18 PM on June 3, 2013


I was shocked at how overtly everyone talks about the fact that she slept with someone to get partner. Not sure she'll ever be able to live that one down.
posted by mynameisluka at 12:25 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ha, let's be honest: good people savvy is 90 percent of being a good accounts person (I used to work with them at a couple of magazines; their social energy and warm demeanor were amazing). She needs practice. (Maybe not to practice on such a big client, yes.) Bringing Pete in would have lost her the whole thing.

By the way, the vast majority of the account people at every place I've worked have been women. I wonder when that happened.
posted by purpleclover at 12:26 PM on June 3, 2013


Yes people savvy is important but as you say so is practice- also a ton of market research, competitive analysis etc.. I just think Joan's people savvy is why she and Peggy initially thought she could swing it but it quickly became apparent that she couldn't.

There's more to the job than "anticipating what people want" and Joan realizes that now I think.
posted by sweetkid at 12:32 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think part of Joan's problem is that her role within the firm continues to be undefined. With practice, her skills would actually make her an excellent account woman, as purpleclover points out--a job where she would be of much better service to the company than the sort of nebulous CFO duties she has now. But she's never going to be given that job. She has to take it, just like she would have had to take the TV job. Her position at the time in the early sixties meant she had to choose passivity, had to let it go, but now she feasibly has the leverage and clout to make it work.

And I honestly think finding a job at the company where she does well would do a lot in erasing that speculation about what she did to get to the top.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:32 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


I don't think the show has shown any of the accounts guys doing market research or competitive analysis. Even with Roger's chasing down Chevy, it mostly seems to be . . . pro-schmoozing, basically.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:33 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


The thing is Pete didn't want to come along, he wanted to go instead of her, and that would have led to a dead end. I think that's what tripped Peggy up...she didn't expect Joan to get cut out of the loop right off the bat.

So I sorta understand Joan's instinct. And I really liked Peggy saying she wanted her to succeed.
posted by dry white toast at 12:36 PM on June 3, 2013


The irony is that Don probably would have been more inclined to keep Joan in the loop, but Peggy's instinct was to rely on Ted to fix things.
posted by dry white toast at 12:38 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


They've shown Pete quoting market research a couple times. And tv shows simplify things anyway. I'm just saying the job is more than taking people to lunch. I feel like the show jokes that that's all it is, but that misassumption trips up people like Joan and Lane and makes people underestimate Roger.
posted by sweetkid at 12:39 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


But Don's not there, and they had to move quickly.

Given the options of people to go to in order to facilitate this, Ted was probably the best choice. Even if you just think of it in terms of "who is least likely to tell us to fuck off". Bert - too out of touch. Cutler - space cadet, doesn't even know Peggy and Joan. Pete - we saw his way of handling this. Ted - generally a good sort of person who isn't deliberately out to make things harder. Everyone else is either in California or dead.
posted by Sara C. at 12:43 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


The trick to accounts is that you have to make them comfortable with saying yes without coming off as desperate. Joan is good with men, but she's used to being chased, not subtly doing the chasing.

Also, on the question of understanding the female market, part of the issue is that the men at the top of their client companies are old and conservative. Working women are not only hard for them to grasp, they are inherently resistant to the idea. And when that's not the case, it's a new enough phenomenon that they don't really understand it yet. There's not a lot of data on what it means.
posted by dry white toast at 12:45 PM on June 3, 2013


I was shocked at how overtly everyone talks about the fact that she slept with someone to get partner. Not sure she'll ever be able to live that one down.

The worst part about this being thrown in her face by her own team is that she did not "sleep her way to the top" in the traditional sense, i.e. she did not sleep with her boss, or a random partner, to move up the corporate ladder to partner.

The firm wanted, and needed, Jaguar. The firm was presented with terms that included pimping out Joan. The firm was unable to negotiate a deal otherwise. In theory, that should have ended with them losing Jaguar. Instead, Pete manipulates things so this deal actually is considered and presented to Joan. She is then advised, by another partner, to negotiate for a partnership of her own (granted he had his own reasons for this advice, but Joan is unaware of this). So we have one partner setting her up and another partner advising her on the terms.

So she gets her partnership, but it's obviously still a huge sacrifice which oh yes by the way pretty much saves the company at the time. The fact that Don later loses (dumps, really) Jaguar should not diminish from the fact that her actions got the account, got the firm some prestige and all the money for the work in the time period before Don got rid of them. If she had instead taken a lump sum of money and put it in the bank no one would be accusing her of "sleeping her way to increased financial stability." In fact, they would probably be too embarrassed to ever bring it up because they'd know that no payoff would have been sufficient.
posted by mikepop at 12:49 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


(Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)

Metafilter: Everyone else is either in California or dead.
posted by Superplin at 12:49 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]




Ted - generally a good sort of person who isn't deliberately out to make things harder. Everyone else is either in California or dead.

I think another factor here is that Ted is feeling that things are going in all directions, and he wants to enforce clear roles to re-establish order. New accounts - Pete - done. I think if Peggy had brought this to Ted immediately post-merger he would have been more inclined to react as she expected - having Pete in charge but incorporating Joan into the account relationship.
posted by mikepop at 12:55 PM on June 3, 2013


Also, was that copywriter Margie Koch back at work right at the end there? I thought I saw her walk by as Pete was in the creative area.
posted by mikepop at 1:06 PM on June 3, 2013


There's also the fact that Ted doesn't really know Joan and has no idea what her stake in all this is aside from knowing somebody at a company. I would imagine that people who work for ad agencies bring in new business this way from time to time, and there's probably a stock procedure for what to do when it turns out the CFO/Copy Chief/VP of HR/whatever knows somebody.

This is a little bit High Women's Studies for this thread, but Ted's actions are a classic example of "gatekeeping" and how well-meaning people tend to be complicit in patriarchy/sexism/the status quo. If you're a dude and you have a ton of other complicated shit on your mind, and then someone comes to you wanting something sort of abstract, it's not really in your interest to say, "well how can I help this person become more self-actualized by championing their cause?" Instead you just shuffle them into the Company Policy On New Business and go to your lunch meeting with the Fleischmans people. Glass ceilings and diversity and handing out slices of the pie don't factor into it. Compare Ted's actions to Peggy's: she obviously gets what this is really about and acts as more of a champion of Joan's cause rather than just a person giving another person advice about standard procedure. This is why you need people at Ted's level of power who get stuff like this, and unfortunately just being nice and well-meaning and not a creep usually isn't enough. You need to actually have a stake.

I'm sure that somewhere in that run-on nightmare paragraph I just said something about "leaning in".
posted by Sara C. at 1:09 PM on June 3, 2013 [9 favorites]


So this is apropos of not much, though it's touched on in that Slate piece.

Let's all just be aware that "movie producer" is basically the Hollywood equivalent of "accounts man". In a sense, what happened with Danny isn't that he "failed up" or went and found another place to seize the power he wanted. What happened was that he was always a frustrated Accounts Man. It might even be likely that working at SCDP enabled him to see that. He thought "ad man" meant coming up with witty slogans, the way most people think "making movies" means composing a shot or telling an actor how to say the lines. But the reality is that there's a lot more to it than that, and in failing at being a creative he was able to see a path for himself.

My guess is that he called in another family favor to get into the movie business, but this time was able to be more savvy about it.

All of the above definitely echoes the arcs of other characters* who are "seizing power" in this episode, and is distinct from paths like Don's, Peggy's, and Ginsberg's where the person had a creative gift that just needed to be nurtured. It's also interesting that Roger is the one who resents Danny so much -- as someone who inherited an ad agency, he's never had to follow either of those paths.

*With the possible exception of Bob "right place" Benson.
posted by Sara C. at 1:20 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


You're all Harper Valley hypocrites.

Yes! And the previous line, which we also hear: "This is all a little Peyton Place, and..." That's a reference to the soap opera (1964-69), as opposed to the movie or the book.

In one episode of the show, a woman named Betty (played by Barbara Parkins, a Canadian-born actress who co-starred with Sharon Tate and Patty Duke -- she of "identical cousins" fame -- in Valley of the Dolls) confronts her husband's mistress, who then slips down some steps and dies.

Just sayin'.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:24 PM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]


Yeah, when men explain on the Internet that "what women don't realize is that there's no conspiracy against them," they should be shown that first clip of Ted keeping Joan down pleasantly and professionally and with no malicious intent at all.
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:25 PM on June 3, 2013 [8 favorites]


One of the things that infuriates me the most about Mad Men is that it can absolutely be read as a slickly packaged narrative Second Wave Feminism 101 text, except that the people who really need such a text don't pick up on any of that stuff and instead think the show is about how awesome it is to fuck chicks in miniskirts.
posted by Sara C. at 1:44 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


readery: "Pete's face at the end was priceless. He's the precursor for the rest of them. His tether is broken with Trudy leaving him and he's the first to be hit with the old reliable ways not being so reliable (Joan not caving and giving him the account).

Then he got high. He's going to wind up in the stratosphere.
"

When they started to close in on him, I started singing "Age of Aquarius." They didn't go with that, but "Piece of My Heart" wasn't THAT far off.

"White Rabbit" also would have been no surprise.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:55 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Does anyone else find it hilarious how inaccurate the portrayal of what it's like to do drugs is?

- LSD, never taken it myself but other hallucinogens are not like that at all (OR SO IM TOLD)
- Hash, not like that at all.
- Marijuana, not like that at all.
posted by Sara C. at 1:58 PM on June 3, 2013


Pete has actually always seemed to straddle the two poles the most of any of the characters. Don sorta does, but he's only in it for the hedonism. Pete actually has values that line up with the counter-culture and he's always wanted to define himself. I just got done watching the S1 episode where he and Trudy buy their first apartment. He doesn't get any help from his father even though he can afford it, and when they move in, his neighbour charges in and is excited about his family lineage (his lineage also saves his job when he steps out of line). He has always wanted to define himself as his own person, and the frustration of doing that the traditional way of climbing the ladder is starting to break him. I think we'd be surprised how well he'd fit in with the hippies.
posted by dry white toast at 2:10 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


Reading Sean Collins, I realize I should've tied PFC Dinkins' "you should see what you look like" to Don's brother's "it's not the tooth that's rotten." I like that Don consistently has drug-fueled visions of young dead men who tell him that he is a festering spiritual corpse.
posted by thesmallmachine at 2:24 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]


Also, was that copywriter Margie Koch back at work right at the end there? I thought I saw her walk by as Pete was in the creative area.

I thought so at first, too! But on closer inspection, it was another heavyset lady.

Hash, not like that at all.

I was under the impression that the hallucinations we saw were the result of Don's near-death experience, and not caused by the hash. I don't think we were ever really shown what effect the drug had on him (other than making him stoned enough to fall in the pool in the first place).
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:29 PM on June 3, 2013


Reading Sean Collins, I realize I should've tied PFC Dinkins' "you should see what you look like" to Don's brother's "it's not the tooth that's rotten." I like that Don consistently has drug-fueled visions of young dead men who tell him that he is a festering spiritual corpse.

We can read these all as hallucinations, but there does seem to be a magical realist element to the show. Don repeatedly sees ghosts.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:56 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


Maybe someone elsewhere has pointed this out, but the parallels and callbacks to Peggy's discovery go as far as "a character spying on Joan from the other side of the wall into the focus group room." (Pretty sure the boardroom at SCDP doubles as such, hence the intercom.)

The reversal couldn't be more complete, though. In the first season: Joan in a room full of happy women, putting on a show for the men that only she knows is watching. In the sixth: Joan in a room full of angry men, being secretly observed and helped by a sympathetic woman.
posted by thesmallmachine at 3:04 PM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I guess it does cross the line into magical realism. I mean, Don saw Anna at the moment of her death. His visions can actually be fact-checked.
posted by thesmallmachine at 3:06 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


What Joan probably should have done was make reservations for a lunch for four and gone without telling Pete. He wouldn't have been happy about it, but there would be nothing he could do about it in front of the client, and no one else at the company would have thought Joan had done anything wrong. Then, Joan gets to see what an account person does, and to put in a word as she sees fit.

Remember when Lane Pryce insisted on handling Jaguar himself? And now Joan has his job and is a partner, just as he was. Joan had the same right to insist on a seat at the table, but she needed to realize that she didn't have the experience to know what to do and needed a co-pilot.

An even better plan would have been to get Ken Cosgrove to help handle the account, as he would have been more willing to share the job with her.
posted by orange swan at 3:59 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


What did Don say about Conrad Hilton in this episode?
posted by drezdn at 4:00 PM on June 3, 2013


That he might be in the hotel in front of which the riot is taking place.

I shared that hope.
posted by orange swan at 4:01 PM on June 3, 2013


What Joan probably should have done was make reservations for a lunch for four and gone without telling Pete. He wouldn't have been happy about it, but there would be nothing he could do about it in front of the client, and no one else at the company would have thought Joan had done anything wrong. Then, Joan gets to see what an account person does, and to put in a word as she sees fit.

Remember when Lane Pryce insisted on handling Jaguar himself? And now Joan has his job and is a partner, just as he was. Joan had the same right to insist on a seat at the table, but she needed to realize that she didn't have the experience to know what to do and needed a co-pilot.

An even better plan would have been to get Ken Cosgrove to help handle the account, as he would have been more willing to share the job with her.
posted by orange swan at 6:59 PM on June 3 [+] [!]


Agree with your thoughts on how Joan could have inserted herself without freezing out Pete. I don't think there would have been conference room yelling with that strategy.
posted by sweetkid at 4:06 PM on June 3, 2013


What Joan probably should have done was make reservations for a lunch for four and gone without telling Pete. He wouldn't have been happy about it, but there would be nothing he could do about it in front of the client, and no one else at the company would have thought Joan had done anything wrong. Then, Joan gets to see what an account person does, and to put in a word as she sees fit.

This is what I thought was going to happen. I was confused when Joan said she hadn't invited Pete at all.

I'm starting to wonder if they don't build the whole episode around the question

What is the exact set of outcomes that would lead to a big boardroom yelling scene on page 42?

And then work backwards from there.
posted by Sara C. at 4:16 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


What if Don's heart gives out this season? Bob Benson becomes the donor for a transplant, because he has two, "in case someone needs one."
posted by drezdn at 5:16 PM on June 3, 2013 [12 favorites]


OH MY GOD YOU GUYS
Yes it really is the success of the individual Vs. the successes of the group. The zero sum game versus a rising tide lifts all boats, as expressed via company naming.

Also we call this ship Benberg.
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


And I did like the AV Club's suggestion that if the future of the ad world ( and thus, America) is slick, impersonal, Corperate, and shallowly pleasing, then Bob Benson is the future.
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


I worked with a guy who was kind of like Bob Benson but bad at it.
posted by sweetkid at 9:37 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think the reference to Connie was because the '68 convention was held at a (possibly the) downtown Chicago Hilton. Haven't looked it up.

Don saw Anna at the moment of her death

This is the strongest possible reason to develop concern for Megan, in light of her Tate tee and dead-man Dinkins.

You know you've got it if it makes you feel good.
posted by mwhybark at 10:13 PM on June 3, 2013


Interesting how Cutler was all "WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS OVER HERE?" to Bob in the scene where he busts Stan & Ginsberg and has the big argument. I don't get the sense that Bob wants to be a creative, but I wonder if he doesn't hang out down there because the atmosphere is a little more relaxed.

Or that creative is an easier nut to crack, everyone in accounts is looking out for themselves and suspicious of others, creative is a bit more "were all in this together" and less used to people being nice to them.

Or he's totally in love with the Ginzmaratian and wants to be close to him. Or Stan. Oh god, can Bob be in hidden love with Stan? I would totally be in love in Stan, and I say this as someone who securely suspects they are Bob Benson.
posted by The Whelk at 10:16 PM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]


everyone in accounts is looking out for themselves and suspicious of others, creative is a bit more "were all in this together" and less used to people being nice to them.

Haha yes, this is spot on. Then there's being a producer where no one is nice to you but you still have to convince everyone "we're all in this together"
posted by sweetkid at 10:18 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


- Hash, not like that at all.

Actually..wait, I can use a real use of the " a friend told me..." that if you're a relative virgin to these things, taking a whole shiton of hash can lead to some crazy self-inflicted visualizations that are totally scary cause you're a noob and have never done anything worse than jello shots before.

For other metrics of " My friend says" Hash just puts them right to sleep.My Friend actually wishes it was more available as a sleep aid cause they have horrible insomnia and Ambien once led to a 24 blackout with fist fighting and seriously, my friend needs to sleep.

Also just being slightly nice to a creative anywhere ever is the secret code to getting them on your side. We are all so used and expected to being shit on everyday, all day. I saw both sides of this back in comics so now I'm deeply distrusting of everyone.

Yaaaaay.
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]


Srsly I want to go to these hashy bensony parties man Whelk
posted by sweetkid at 10:39 PM on June 3, 2013


It's gonna last about four hours and were gonna be in a very nice, relaxed place. I've got the music ready, the really fuzzy textured pillows, and lots of ice water and lemonade to help you maintain.
posted by The Whelk at 10:45 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]


James Wolk is on Toronto's Breakfast Television right now! But he is talking about a tv show he's in, the Crazy Ones, where Wolk will play Zach Cropper, a devastatingly handsome copywriter at the ad agency where star Robin Williams‘ character and his daughter work. I was all confused, because I was in the kitchen making lunches and heard Bob's voice talking about a Chicago ad agency, and got excited - and then quickly grew mostly disappointed. He did not bring two Anthora cups of coffee (as far as I could see) and not one word about being Bob Bunson.
posted by peagood at 5:36 AM on June 4, 2013


That was pretty much the most honest and civilized break-up Mad Men has ever done.

I swear I'm gonna use Abe's speech to Peggy when I write my resignation letter. How did it go? ... "Your activities are offensive to my every waking moment."

Interesting interview with Charlie Hofheimer about that stabbing scene.

Does anyone else find it hilarious how inaccurate the portrayal of what it's like to do drugs is?

- LSD, never taken it myself but other hallucinogens are not like that at all (OR SO IM TOLD)
- Hash, not like that at all.
- Marijuana, not like that at all.


I thought the LSD scene was OK. The behavior of the adults was fairly accurate to me. It seems hard to depict an ego drop or shift in time-space perceptions in a TV show. The whole Roger looking in the mirror thing and seeing his face split in two like the Time magazine cover was realistic to me.

I think the marijuana use is fairly realistic too. For most people, a mild dose makes you giggle and get hungry, e.g. Don to Stan -> "let's order lunch"

I haven't seen the hash scene yet (hash is just a different prep of cannabis), and I've never taken meth or anything super speedy, so I can't comment much on that wacked-out episode. but based on what I've heard (you stay up for 72 hours fucking), I'd say it seemed OK, if a bit overdriven. Don's crash seemed realistic to me.

For other metrics of " My friend says" Hash just puts them right to sleep.My Friend actually wishes it was more available as a sleep aid cause they have horrible insomnia and Ambien once led to a 24 blackout with fist fighting and seriously, my friend needs to sleep.

If she is lucky enough to live in one of the 18 US locales where medical marijuana is legal, she can get a rec for that insomnia. I recommend Burkle. ("Slight sleepiness" my ass.)

LSD and cannabis are both psychedelics, fwiw, and both have been known to produce visual hallucinations, though (for me) it's certainly not like seeing ghosts. More like seeing patterns (that sometimes move) that you wouldn't otherwise.

So sue me, I'm a week behind. I have kids.
posted by mrgrimm at 6:11 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think the reference to Connie was because the '68 convention was held at a (possibly the) downtown Chicago Hilton. Haven't looked it up.

It was the host hotel for the delegates and the party. The convention took place at an arena. In fact, I'm reading a book on the convention right now, and they call it the "Conrad Hilton".
posted by dry white toast at 6:40 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


For most people, a mild dose makes you giggle and get hungry, e.g. Don to Stan -> "let's order lunch"

Yeah but not in like 22 seconds. That was like a half-page scene.

Also with Pete, this episode, he has one hit and he's at Woodstock before he even has a chance to exhale.
posted by Sara C. at 6:51 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


We should really start a pool on who goes to Woodstock.
posted by dry white toast at 7:07 AM on June 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


As of this week, my list is:

Ginsberg
Pete
Bob Benson (always carries an extra hit of acid)
Betty
Pregnant Megan
Artie Rosen
Danny Siegel
Jane Siegel
Sally
posted by Sara C. at 7:24 AM on June 4, 2013


The person who goes to Woodstock should logically be the person who would have the worst time there.
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


OMG SEND MARIE CALVET TO WOODSTOCK
posted by psoas at 8:25 AM on June 4, 2013 [5 favorites]


I hope no one goes to Woodstock, or they don't show it. Even that sixties party alone was so cheesy and right out of Annie Hall (which yea not even 60s). I don't remember if it's here or elsewhere where someone commented they always feel like they're watching The Wonder Years when Mad Men does hippies and it's either because they're not good at it or the subject is hard to do in a way that doesn't seem like it's been done already.
posted by sweetkid at 8:32 AM on June 4, 2013


The fact that they devoted so much time to the Chicago DNC to me implies that they are DEFINITELY at least going to deal with Woodstock in some way.

I don't think there's going to be a Woodstock Episode where we see primary characters actually at Woodstock. But I do think it's going to be mentioned, if only because it's a major cultural event happening in the show's backyard. I mean, they went out of their way to tell us that Sally was at the Beatles concert in Shea Stadium. We've been backstage at a Rolling Stones show. We're probably going to Woodstock.

For the record, in seriousness: I think Sally will go but either we won't see it at all (it'll just be referenced in dialogue), or it'll be a very minor subplot. I mean, any halfway cool sixteen year old girl -- even one who isn't a bonafide Hippie -- would've been DYING to go. And it's not like Sally has a ton of parental supervision, or lacks the resources to accomplish this.

Keep in mind Woodstock was a music festival, not The Human Be-In. Which is something the show hasn't mentioned, because they're on the wrong coast and none of the characters are really the right demographic to care about it. Whereas Woodstock is something that is nearby and there are a few characters who would at least be aware of it/talking about it/experiencing it.
posted by Sara C. at 8:52 AM on June 4, 2013


No I know they are going to mention it, I just don't want a whole Woodstock episode. Or- and I know I don't need to say this - tripping Sally with flowers drawn on her face.

Seriously Matt Weiner I am serious about this.
posted by sweetkid at 8:55 AM on June 4, 2013


Two things:

I liked how they showed the DNC via television, like Bobby Kennedy's death, the displacement of information via mediated technology adds to the ennui of the charachters--the telephone conversation where both talk about the riots, from seperate coasts, deepens this.

I think that the AV club wrote this, but California is kind of distant, but also the place where the 60s collapsed into the 70s, and so these aren't hippies in the sense of SF, or even the bohemians of midge, these are hippies that are playing hippies for a set of producers who might screen them...the faux hippie as movie novelty. (which ties back to Manson, one of the reasons why i think that Manson has become such a cultural touchstone, is that it provided a monstrous example of the split between bad radical and good hippie--a split that can be seen in the show b/w for example the second generation communist gone sexpot of Meagan and the conserative not quite reactionary of Dawn.)

Does Mad Men have any progressive voices on it?
posted by PinkMoose at 8:57 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


(also, maybe its not schizophrenia for ginsberg, but the weird tension of possibly being drafted, of wanting to end the war, of perputating t he war, and of the general how do i make a living economic conerns)
posted by PinkMoose at 9:00 AM on June 4, 2013


tripping Sally with flowers drawn on her face.

I think if they do anything like this it's going to be the exact opposite of what one would expect. Like Sally hitches to Woodstock with a bunch of hippies and they're like "let's draw flowers on your face, it'll be grovy" and she snarks at them as she fixes her lipstick in the mirror.

One thing I liked about the Hollywood Party scene from this episode is that, while Don and especially Roger were out of place, there was an interesting mix of different people who were approaching the whole 60's aesthetic differently. There was the hostess of the party who looked maybe two shades more countercultural than Betty, then there were people who just looked sort of casual and natured out (like Lotus, the girl who Danny and Roger fight over, who looks sort of hippie-ish, but isn't at the level of Wendy from the drug weekend). There was the groovy looking cat talking to Don about music who obviously wasn't a hippie at all, and there was Danny, dressed in counterculture drag.

That said there's this one shot of mostly extras when they first walk into the party where this one guy is basically dressed up as Jimi Hendrix which I thought was stupid.
posted by Sara C. at 9:11 AM on June 4, 2013


the telephone conversation where both talk about the riots, from seperate coasts, deepens this

Extremely Literary Criticism 101 Observation:

Guys, the riots in Chicago are literally between them in this scene. Like, geographically speaking.
posted by Sara C. at 9:14 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


are you making fun of me
posted by PinkMoose at 9:16 AM on June 4, 2013


no

I actually thought it was an interesting idea.
posted by Sara C. at 9:33 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


So basically we can blame California for everything
posted by The Whelk at 9:44 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sara, I'm sorry.

Hasn't this been american history since the 40s?
posted by PinkMoose at 9:51 AM on June 4, 2013


Also with Pete, this episode, he has one hit and he's at Woodstock before he even has a chance to exhale.

I'm not convinced that the slo-mo at the end was meant to illustrate Pete bring instantly high - it seemed more like just an artsy camera sort of thing. But I'm not married to that interpretation.

Pregnant Megan

Pregan.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:56 AM on June 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


The first time I ever got high was pretty similar to Pete's experience, though I really think he should have been coughing more.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:58 AM on June 4, 2013


Also with Pete, this episode, he has one hit and he's at Woodstock before he even has a chance to exhale.

I really don't think they stuck "Piece of My Heart" on there as generic Stoner Music. The song has a theme, and that theme lines up with Pete's storyline in this episode. His whole arc, even. (And Joan's, in a different way.)

I'm absolutely convinced that there are big, big changes ahead for Pete, and that that was his big Drop Out moment.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:01 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Agreed, agreed, agreed. That was Pete's "Fuck it, I'm out" moment.
posted by mynameisluka at 10:11 AM on June 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yep. Out to do what I don't know though.
posted by sweetkid at 10:12 AM on June 4, 2013


I don't know what Pete might do specifically, but on the way out he could sell his shares to Cutler to spite Don.
posted by mikepop at 10:15 AM on June 4, 2013


Thirded on the overall Pete thing. Also despite the silliness of how the show portrays most drug use, I'm very curious to see what this means for him. I feel like the show uses drug use to either illustrate or initiate character changes and I'm curious about where they're going with this.

And it wasn't so much the music choice that made me roll my eyes at that particular pot smoking moment, more the slow pan and focus-pull to the miniskirt girl etc. It was like something out of Dazed And Confused. I mean, I guess sometimes a cool camera move is just a cool camera move and not meant to be evocative of the character's mental state. But I still don't think Mad Men does particular evocations of what it's actually like to take particular drugs terribly well.

Which is fine -- I don't come to Mad Men for ultra-realistic depictions of drug use. Besides, it would be really boring if Don smoked some hash and then everything got kind of squiggly for a little while but otherwise it was uneventful.
posted by Sara C. at 10:19 AM on June 4, 2013


I think that if Pete still had Trudy in his camp she'd have suggested that he break off and open his own shop, but without Trudy I have no idea.
posted by Sara C. at 10:25 AM on June 4, 2013


Man, particularly since Don funded Pete's initial buy-in, unless that's exactly the point you're making. It would spite Don on a couple of levels.

I cannot wait to see what happens when Pete snaps. He's always felt the need to hide his sadder and more conscious side, and over the years it went from "nobody but Trudy sees this" to "nobody but the woman I'm awkwardly pushing myself at this week sees this" to "I'm increasingly incapable of telling the difference between my real anger and sadness and the anger and sadness I summon up to feel superior to people like Harry" to God knows where. Sometimes when you try to become your authentic self again after all those years, it's just not there anymore.

I'm not exactly predicting that Pete's big change will come in the form of leaving "trying to live more authentically," but I feel like he's aware of the slow merging of his I-am-genuinely-mourning-for-Jack-Kennedy self with his calculating-mind-and-shit-eating-grin-accounts-man self. It's hard to pretend for years without becoming the thing you're trying to be. Don is unique because he is still Dick in so many ways, though maybe that's because Don and Dick really are very different men, while both Petes are passionate, impulsive, and basically self-destructive.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:29 AM on June 4, 2013


I share your feeling of not caring about Don's bullshit anymore. I'm starting to wonder if he does, or if he's weary enough of it to try to drown himself in a pool.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:33 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I cannot wait to see what happens when Pete snaps.

He does still have a gun in his office.
posted by COBRA! at 10:34 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Holy shit, wouldn't that be a thing.

And we've been calling back to season 1 so often this year; why not finally deliver the gun punchline, years after everyone decided it was just an anti-joke?

Don't point that thing at anyone, Pete! You'll only botch it up in some horrible, embarrassing way! You can load it with bullets, but it only shoots gifs.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:39 AM on June 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Holy shit, wouldn't that be a thing.

Imagine, a thing like that!
posted by entropicamericana at 10:52 AM on June 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Howdy Doody Circus Army!
posted by sweetkid at 10:53 AM on June 4, 2013


Hell's bells!
posted by mynameisluka at 10:54 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


God I love Pete. I'm still snickering at "Since when? I don't want that!" re Ted's Head of New Business assignment.

Speaking of that convo, that also happened on/near the stairs right?
posted by sweetkid at 10:58 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Megan, pregnant, telling him that it's cool because everyone in California shares and the baby will be a second chance, and also she's quit her job? Snore. We didn't learn anything new about Don through the vision of pregnant hippie Megan.

Oh, I completely disagree. I thought it was the show's way of letting us in on some of Don's feelings about his marriage and Megan.

My assumption before this was that Don didn't want any more kids and probably doesn't care much whether Megan works or not but mostly hates that she's an actress specifically. I also thought that his problem was that he didn't care much about Megan in general. So this hallucination implies to me that Don does want to work things out with her and specifically his issue is that he wishes she was in a more maternal/domestic role. I also thought it was interesting that the hallucination shows her in that role but also still looking young and fresh and countercultural. Almost the opposite of whatever he saw in Sylvia.

I'd also bet money that T&Lo talk about the pink paisley peasant top that Vision Megan is wearing. They mentioned something about women in flowy pink things, and here's Megan in a flowy pink thing.
posted by Sara C. at 11:17 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


As part of this, it's possible that Cutler added Benson to Chevy to make Bob one of "his" guys.

That's absolutely what was happening.


Dry White Toast, can you elaborate on this? Or anyone else interested in speculating on Cutler's game? I thought he sent Bob to Detroit because he wanted to get SDCP people out of the office. Ted told him he was "splitting the business, and not in half" (Cutler had also wanted to fire Ginsberg of course).

Also, I don't understand the olive branch of naming the company SC&P. On the face of it, it was Cutler's idea for taking the other partners' minds off the loss of Manischewitz, but it was way overkill for that! (Besides, Sterling didn't seem to mind losing that account at all, said it had been coming for months.) What would Cutler's strategic gain be in making the concession on the name?
posted by torticat at 11:20 AM on June 4, 2013


I'm starting to hate-read the T&Lo stuff now, even though I agree with some of their observations still.

I was liking a lot of the recent recap until they were all WE TOTALLY CALLED GINZ AS SCHIZOPHRENIC YOU GUYS and uh, that's not at all confirmed.
posted by sweetkid at 11:21 AM on June 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


What would Cutler's strategic gain be in making the concession on the name?

Yeah, that kind of puzzled me, too. Maybe the CGC side is going to split off again and take the D with them?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:25 AM on June 4, 2013


Re SC&P, my guess is that he wants to make it seem like he's giving the SCDP folks a big win by basically having the name revert to Sterling Cooper, except his REAL plan is to stage a coup and take the whole place over. Who cares whose name is on the building when you hold all the reins?

Keep in mind, too, that he lets the least relevant partners keep their names in. Roger and Bert don't really count and it won't hurt them to just recede into the shadows as someone else runs the company. It's really Don and Pete that Cutler is trying to cut out, and cut them out he does.
posted by Sara C. at 11:27 AM on June 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


You might say they're about to be...

sunglasses on

CUTLERED.

Yeaaahhhh!
posted by sweetkid at 11:32 AM on June 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Oh my god.

Cutlered.

Ginzo.

I mean, THINK ABOUT IT.

(In all srsns, there has been a LOT of stabbing.)
posted by Sara C. at 11:36 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh that reminded me, speaking of random coincidences/references I was travelling yesterday but wanted to address this:

In one episode of the show, a woman named Betty (played by Barbara Parkins, a Canadian-born actress who co-starred with Sharon Tate and Patty Duke -- she of "identical cousins" fame -- in Valley of the Dolls) confronts her husband's mistress, who then slips down some steps and dies.

Just sayin'.


Jacqueline Susann wrote Valley of the Dolls and January Jones' parents named her after a character in a different Jacqueline Susann novel. Dun Dun Dun.

I don't think anything will really happen to Betty. Better not.

posted by sweetkid at 11:45 AM on June 4, 2013


Interesting point, Sara C. (re the relevancy of the partners). But do we have any reason to believe Cutler would have it in for Draper? I'm trying to recall if there have been hints of this. Also, for what purpose would Cutler be making a power play? I don't remember his objecting so far to the way things are being run, and he's hardly out there pounding the pavement for new business himself. He doesn't even want to sub for Roger for one meeting! It seems more like he has interpersonal issues with some of the SDCP staff.
posted by torticat at 11:51 AM on June 4, 2013


I don't think Cutler wants to do the hard work of growing a business. He just wants to be in charge. Re bringing Bob into Chevy, Cutler could have fired him on the spot. By not only keeping him, but putting him on Chevy, Cutler now has Bob in his pocket. It's interesting that Ken is the one that called Bob out earlier in the season, and Ken has been their man on Chevy so far.* Having said all that, what does having Bob Benson in your pocket really get you?

It's funny, I re-watched the episode last night, and Pete's approach to Avon didn't seem all that unreasonable on second viewing. He says he and Peggy will talk Joan up, and that "you'll get all the credit." I still think Joan was right that she needed to be there, but he wasn't discarding her as readily as Ted was.

Good points above about Pete's past farsightedness and Don ignoring his warning. Don seems totally indifferent to his work right now, like he's going through the motions. But I'm not sure what Cutler can do given that Roger, Don, and Pete are partners. He'd have to get Cooper and Joan to vote against them, and even then I don't know that they have enough votes. And I really don't see Don turning his back on either Roger or Pete.

Sheesh, this is starting to sound like L.A. Law, complete with Harry Hamlin!!

*On the subject of violence affecting the firm, Detroit probably suffered more long term damage than any other city in 1968 (with the possible exception of Newark). I wonder if Ken will get caught up in that.
posted by dry white toast at 2:44 PM on June 4, 2013


But do we have any reason to believe Cutler would have it in for Draper?

I don't think Cutler has it in for anyone specifically.

I think that Cutler (rightfully) sees guys like Don and Pete* as the "next generation" of Sterling Cooper. Bert is already has little to do with the day to day activities of the company. Roger could easily be put out to pasture, or hell, just let him do his thing till he retires in another five years.

But Don's got another 20 years in him, and Pete is still a young guy. If Cutler wants to poach the company out from under the SCDP team, it's Don and Pete he needs to castrate.

*I leave Joan out because I doubt Cutler would consider her any threat. I would LOVE IT if Joan catches onto him and saves everyone else's ass, but I have my doubts with her lately. In her own way, she's almost as distracted as Don.
posted by Sara C. at 2:54 PM on June 4, 2013


Man, TLo is being needlessly harsh on Joan. Joan's pitch to the client was a perfect description of what a good accounts guy does

Totally agree, PhoBWanKenobi! They had that thing going on a few weeks ago, too, when they said Joan was a total bitch in the "basket of kisses" scene, and I went back and watched it and that wasn't true at all. She was arch, as Joan always was (and still is much of the time) but not a bitch. I don't know what TLo's deal is.

sweetkid:
I think T&Lo's explanation of Joan's mistakes were pretty spot on - she didn't represent the company appropriately, she sold herself as a secretary rather than a partner, she undercut Peggy's attempt to make an emotional connection to the Avon product, and she shouldn't have cut Pete out,

I don't get this at all. In the initial meeting, Joan did an AMAZING pivot from date to business meeting in about five seconds. Her description of herself as being "in charge of thinking of things before people know they need them" showed quick thinking, was truthful, and tied in nicely with what she said about the trick of advertising (or TV ads), "finding your customers in places you hadn't thought to look."

The breakfast meeting went fine too. It was maybe briefly awkward when she said, "Peggy?" and Peggy had to jump in. But funnily this was echoed when the Carnation meeting was at an impasse and Roger's reaction was, "Don?" Tag teaming is kind of what accounts and creative do. I also don't think it was that big a deal when she cut Peggy off at the beginning; the feel-good magic that Don works is usually in the ad pitches, not the initial meeting. Joan moved things along to "We're here to listen to you," and that was fine. But the real proof that things were okay is that the guy sent samples the next day and a note referencing their "productive meeting."

Peggy was upset because of the breach of protocol. The first thing she'd said to Joan when she heard about Avon was that Joan could be the accounts man if she wanted it (but Ted scotched that). After the breakfast meeting, Peggy thought Joan was going to lose the account because she figured the other partners would be PISSED, not because she thought they'd muffed the meeting.

I get that what Joan did was devious, and it makes sense that Pete would be angry. But what she did was absolutely no more devious than what any of the other partners have done, and it worked out for her in the end (Ted's ruling was "possession is nine-tenths of the law"). And finally, Pete was SUCH an ass. His description is how things should work wasn't just the normal chain of command; he said he and Peggy would meet with the client and then Joan could "show them around the office" (like a secretary?). Also, what was with his calling himself her boss? She doesn't answer to him.
posted by torticat at 2:55 PM on June 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Ted's actions are a classic example of "gatekeeping" and how well-meaning people tend to be complicit in patriarchy/sexism/the status quo. If you're a dude and you have a ton of other complicated shit on your mind, and then someone comes to you wanting something sort of abstract, it's not really in your interest to say, "well how can I help this person become more self-actualized by championing their cause?"
...
Compare Ted's actions to Peggy's:


This is exactly right, Sara C. Also compare Ted's actions to Cutler's, who sends Bob off to the Manischewitz meeting without backup while acknowledging upfront that Bob has no experience. And when that meeting doesn't go well, he praises Bob for "handling it like a man" or words to that effect. (Isn't that funny.) And then Bob gets rewarded with a position on the Chevy account.

(Well at least--moving to Detroit doesn't seem like a reward to me, but Bob seemed happy about it.)
posted by torticat at 3:06 PM on June 4, 2013 [5 favorites]


Guys, seriously, can we just TALK about whether we'll ever see Bob again or what?

Re comparing the Bob situation to the Joan situation, I think it's a little apples/oranges. If Bob had been desperate to go service the Manischewitz account and there was nothing in it for Cutler, Cutler wouldn't have sent him. If it had been expedient in that moment for Ted to just say to Joan "sure, go do this thing", he probably would have.

In this situation, weirdly enough, Ted's desire to be amiable toward SCDP people probably bit Joan on the ass. Cutler acted out of guile. Ted was just in a hurry to get to his lunch.

Sometimes a half-hearted "whatever" or being a pawn in someone else's game is useful, when you're the Bobs and Joans of the world.
posted by Sara C. at 3:22 PM on June 4, 2013


One more thing about TLo's comments, they think Joan's friend (Kate?) had an inflated sense of Joan's position in the company. I do not think this was the point of Kate's conversation with Joan at all. She pointed out that what Joan wanted was within her grasp, she just needed to take it. This was an excellent kick in the butt for Joan, and we saw some of the results of it in that episode, when Joan handed over the timecard keys to Dawn, and then she really stepped it up in this episode.

Also, Joan is correct when she says that if she doesn't take a chance, she will not be given one. No one sees her as anything more than an office manager. Even way back when, when she showed talent at TV script-reading, no one noticed her (as Peggy was noticed) and gave her a leg up.

(I should probably take my complaints about TLo's thoughts to their site, only then I would have to use that unbearable Disqus thing, ugh.)
posted by torticat at 3:28 PM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Every time I see Cutler, I see the first ghoul from Night of the Living Dead wearing Johnny's glasses. Is it just me?
posted by entropicamericana at 3:51 PM on June 4, 2013


Re comparing the Bob situation to the Joan situation, I think it's a little apples/oranges.

Oh the parallel meetings held by two "untested" staff were absolutely intentional! But I agree that if Ted hadn't been in such a hurry, he likely would have been happy to work things out with Joan. He seemed fine in the end about letting her have the reins.

What do you mean about Cutler acting out of guile? Just that he wanted to get out of the meeting, but framed it like he was trying to help Bob out?
posted by torticat at 3:54 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Interesting how perceptions of the breakfast meeting differs. I was cringingly uncomfortable while watching and was only left with the hope that maybe things righted themselves a bit more after the camera cut away.
posted by rewil at 4:03 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh the parallel meetings held by two "untested" staff were absolutely intentional!

Well, sure. But the actual situations at hand are completely opposite. Joan is going to Ted really excited about this thing she wants to do, and he doesn't really care one way or the other, so he just shepherds her over to the standard procedure. Bob happens to be walking by and Cutler grabs him and tells him to go deal with Manischewitz because he doesn't feel like it.

You're absolutely right about the outcome, though. When Bob fails, well, he took it like a man, so here you go, back on your horse which is actually an even better horse. When Joan is successful, everyone is like HOW DARE YOU.

Just that he wanted to get out of the meeting, but framed it like he was trying to help Bob out?

Cutler's whole thing this episode is that he hates the SCDP people and wants to take the reins and lead the whole operation. Everything he does is in service to that. He didn't delegate to Bob because he's a good manager, he did it because he couldn't stomach the thought of going to Manischewitz of all places with a fucking hippie Jew copywriter he just had a screaming match with.
posted by Sara C. at 4:07 PM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


(I should probably take my complaints about TLo's thoughts to their site, only then I would have to use that unbearable Disqus thing, ugh.)

I really wouldn't. They've taken to arguing with every comment on their site that even vaguely disagrees with them (I used to love reading the comments there, but gave up this week when I saw them arguing with some therapist who said that Ginsberg seems like he has GAD, not schizophrenia about how it's clear that Ginsberg doesn't have "mere" anxiety and blah blah blah why are you arguing with us and double ugh.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:05 PM on June 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


But the real proof that things were okay is that the guy sent samples the next day and a note referencing their "productive meeting."

Yeah, that was proof for me that Joan nailed it. You don't send gifts like that after an unsuccessful meeting.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:08 PM on June 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Disney Snow White

This is a callback to the closing scene of last season, when we dollied away into the dark with Don as Megan sold some shoes, or something.

Paul Ford on Bob Benson: "Bob Benson is a way for the writers to show us how, in the world of Mad Men, the very qualities that define a real go-getting American businessman, here, in this office, with these people, look like vile perversion."

So, Kenneth again, then.
posted by mwhybark at 5:11 PM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Gotcha, Sara C. Yeah, I didn't mean Cutler was trying to do Bob a favor, obviously what he did was self-serving, it was just his assumption that he could grab Random Man and send him to a client meeting that contrasted with people's assumptions about Joan.

Interesting how perceptions of the breakfast meeting differs. I was cringingly uncomfortable while watching and was only left with the hope that maybe things righted themselves a bit more after the camera cut away.

rewil, my interpretation seems to be in the distinct minority, both here and on the wider internet... I just don't understand why everyone thought the meeting bombed, when the client followed up positively AND Joan got the account (if they land it). There was no evidence on the show that she screwed up--just that her methods were underhanded. Peggy didn't think she messed up the meeting (she expressed full confidence in Joan's ability even afterwards); Ted wasn't worried about the client, but only about the disrespect to Pete. Don and Roger showed only mild surprise that Joan was working on an account, they weren't upset at all.
posted by torticat at 5:20 PM on June 4, 2013


now I'm deeply distrusting of everyone.

TW, someday when I get my Titor machine we'll go join 21 year old me and munch out on some Amdam magic cake and hit up the Van Gogh museum. It'll be awesome.
posted by mwhybark at 5:29 PM on June 4, 2013


Avon might still want to go with the agency, or at least further the review process, despite the fact that Joan bungled the meeting. The meeting still could have been "productive" despite the fact that Joan handled it wrong. It doesn't change that she handled it wrong and didn't represent the agency or herself well. Obviously some people are going to read things differently, but I do feel that the majority opinion that Joan messed up the meeting is correct. Honestly, to me it makes it more interesting for the show and for her character, and provides an interesting counterpoint to when she smacked down Peggy for firing Joey, when she (Joan) would have flirted with the ham guy instead to get him off the account. Joan doesn't really "get" how the client facing side of the industry is changing, but like I said earlier, that's okay and that's interesting.

But her answer about her role - how she could anticipate what people need before they know...that's not a good answer. It's not a partner answer and it's not an account person answer. It's true in Joan's case, but it's not the kind of answer that gives clients confidence. I have seen people mess up in front of clients in similar ways that Joan messed up, but the stakes were lower.

Again, I think this is good and interesting thing for her character and the show, much more interesting than Joan nails everything she does, much like The Megan Show.
posted by sweetkid at 6:06 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


They've taken to arguing with every comment on their site that even vaguely disagrees with them.

I saw a comment on a Facebook post of Tom and Lorenzo's in which they addressed someone by name and said, "So and So, we think you're a moron." You could actually click on the name they gave and go to the woman's profile. I assume they'd deleted whatever she posted, because there wasn't a comment from her in thread. Fortunately, they soon came to their senses and deleted their comment.

Yes, they are getting too fighty in their thread comment threads, and it's not going to win them any friends or influence people. When blogging, you need to be the adult when it comes to comments on your posts on the net. Certainly you can and should engage somewhat with your readers, and by all means ask people to stay within certain guidelines and delete whatever comments are just too out of line, but bloggers should remember that they have had their say and just give their readers the room to have theirs and discuss the post. Commenting too heavily in the threads, and especially arguing with readers, much less insulting them, just makes bloggers look like controlling assholes who think their word should be canon.
posted by orange swan at 7:14 PM on June 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


yea they have gotten positively out of line about it. Someone pointed out they didn't mention Dinkins by name and they were like "2500 word recap and THAT'S all you notice?" Really? ugh.
posted by sweetkid at 7:22 PM on June 4, 2013


sweetkid, all of what you say is true, and certainly it would be interesting and all of that if Joan screwed up, but --not to belabor the point-- where is the evidence that she did? Peggy/Pete/Ted were in an uproar because she screwed Pete over, and that is set against her argument, "the client is happy, isn't that all that matters?"

Definitely we (viewers) were supposed to be on edge during the meeting, worried that she would fuck it up, but all evidence afterwards suggested she and Peggy pulled it off.
posted by torticat at 7:27 PM on June 4, 2013


where is the evidence that she did? Peggy/Pete/Ted were in an uproar because she screwed Pete over, and that is set against her argument, "the client is happy, isn't that all that matters?"


It's all over the episode. I can't quote exactly the conversation between Peggy and Joan after because I only watched the episode once, but it's there too and it's about more than screwing Pete over.

Also Peggy saying, "you better hope he does call." The account's not sewn up. Even if it is, no the client being happy isn't all that matters.

If you don't see this at all that's cool but I think you're looking at this through pretty rose colored lenses. To me, working in advertising, this wasn't a good meeting and I think the show reflected that. Maybe if I get a chance to rewatch I can give you more evidence, but I don't think it would change your view anyway.
posted by sweetkid at 7:32 PM on June 4, 2013


Yeah, I think you should rewatch the scene with Peggy & Joan. It's all about the internal politics, that's it. Joan says something like "What EXACTLY are you going to do?" (e.g. tell on her to Don, maybe?) There is nothing that suggests the meeting went badly.

It's okay though, my view will either be confirmed or disproven in future eps, so I'm happy to wait. :) I will say, I just watched the behind the scenes clip, to see if there was anything on it there, and the actors' opinions of what happened agrees with what I've argued here.
posted by torticat at 7:42 PM on June 4, 2013


I don't work in advertising, and what I got was that Joan broke a lot of rules and handled the actual Account Person part pretty shakily. But my assumption was that Avon would probably come through in the end despite the fact that she didn't handle it well.

Said assumption came from the fact that they sent samples (which doesn't equal WIN necessarily, but is a good sign), the "productive meeting" thing from the note, and also the fact that in another scene someone says "we're at the 5 yard line with Avon".

I didn't feel like it was an absolute disaster, but I felt like it was obvious that Joan didn't know what she was doing.

But in the end I felt like she probably did the right thing, for herself and potentially for the agency. I'm frankly not sure that Pete would have closed it, necessarily, unless Avon was basically dying to go with SC&P regardless. One thing I feel like Joan did manage (with a lot of help from Peggy) was selling Avon on the idea that a female team could help them figure out how to sell Avon to modern women.

Which I don't at all think is so much Joan being good at everything all the time, just being lucky with an account that was tailor made for her to get away with this.
posted by Sara C. at 7:44 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


my view will either be confirmed or disproven in future eps, so I'm happy to wait. :)

Not really, like I said whether or not they got the account doesn't mean the meeting didn't go badly.

Also, I mean go ahead and see the episode as Joan Pulled It Off! That's like your opinion man.
posted by sweetkid at 7:45 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I felt like it was obvious that Joan didn't know what she was doing.

Yeah this remains true whether they get the account or not, is what I'm saying.
posted by sweetkid at 7:46 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Wow, SC&P really sounds like Essie And Pee when you say it aloud.

(I am thinking a lot about this as someone whose initials are SC. I've spent 20+ years thinking about it, and I think SC are really shit initials to work with. I've always thought they were typographically shitty, but it appears that they are phonologically shitty as well. Adding a P makes it even worse.)
posted by Sara C. at 7:48 PM on June 4, 2013


Oh, yeah, I 100% agree with that and think that was supposed to be the takeaway for everyone, whether they know advertising or not.

For one thing, two steps forward and one step back has ALWAYS been how Joan's stories have gone. SOMEONE'S IN LOVE WITH ME (it's my female roommate, and I'm straight.) ENGAGED TO A DOCTOR (who is a rapist.) HAVING A BABY (but my husband isn't the father.) MADE PARTNER AT THE FIRM (via prostitution.)

It would be way out of character for everything to suddenly be coming up Joanie.
posted by Sara C. at 7:50 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


now I am trying to think of awesome SCs. Besides the obvious of course.

Ooh Steven Colbert. Steven Crane.
posted by sweetkid at 7:51 PM on June 4, 2013


I mean there are great SCs out there. And my full three initials don't spell out a swear word or POO or anything, so that's good. But SC definitely doesn't look good on a monogram, the S and the C are rarely interesting characters in a typeface, and they're both soft sounds so they don't sound good as spoken initials.

Me and Sterling Cooper definitely got the short end of the initials lottery, is all I'm saying.
posted by Sara C. at 7:54 PM on June 4, 2013


I think the President has it worse, and look at him now. Not too shabby.
posted by sweetkid at 7:56 PM on June 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Well guys, watch the actors' comments on the AMC website and see what you think. Christina Hendricks is all about how Joan's been handling account stuff for years and she suddenly realizes (in the accidental business meeting) that she can do it, that she's good, and she decides to run with it. Elisabeth Moss says Peggy is mad during the fight because Joan didn't follow the rules.

I'm not even arguing that Joan ACED the meeting, just that she pulled it off. If she bungled it but there are NO negative repercussions either with the client or in the office, then in what sense was it bungled? She got the job done. If she hadn't, they wouldn't be entrusting her with the account. And Peggy would definitely be letting the partners know that Joan's too green to handle it, instead of covering for her. Peggy wants Avon too!
posted by torticat at 8:22 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


There's a huge difference between a character thinking "I can do this" and a character actually being able to do it.

I also think it's possible to bungle something but still have the situation go your way. My read was that SC&P got the account for reasons other than Joan steering the ship into port.
posted by Sara C. at 8:26 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Peggy wants Avon too!

This is exactly how the meeting could be bungled by Joan but still they end up with the account.

Because it's not the Joan show. There are million factors that go into a question like "does SC&P get account X?" Everything from "But Peggy was on top of it and between the two of them and with a lot of luck they somehow managed" to "Avon just wanted to jump ship and SC&P was the right shop for them for other reasons".

It's sort of like the situation with Cutler and Bob. Bob didn't get sent on the Manischewitz meeting because he's got made kosher wine account servicing skillz. He was just the accounts guy who happened to be walking by at the time, and there was a swirl of ulterior motives that landed in his lap.

Just because you get something doesn't mean you eeked it out through sheer force of will.
posted by Sara C. at 8:30 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]



Just because you get something doesn't mean you eeked it out through sheer force of will.


If only.

Also, I've bungled plenty of things and still gotten a good result. And done other things perfectly and lost. That's just how things work. How life goes.

Also like Sara C. said it's part of the Joan story that she gets things one step forward two steps back. It doesn't make sense in the context of the show for this to be a sparkly win Joan Pulls It Off What Can't She Do moment for her.

Like part of the Pete story is "why doesn't everything good happen all at once?"
posted by sweetkid at 8:39 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I just rewatched the Avon meeting, and to me it was totally in the win column. The way Peggy tapped into what is wrong with their current advertising ("unintentionally old fashioned") and the fact that Joan and Peggy indicated they were aware of the same issues Avon found pressing. The "that's a good point" gesture at the and of the scene suggests they were all on the same page.

Peggy and Joan were a bit out of sync, but Joan covers nicely. She really settles in like a pro, after the slight awkwardness from the previous meeting (though she switches gears quickly there.)

But, most importantly, I think the client came in pretty sure he was going to go with them from the beginning. The meeting seemed more like he was confirming a decision he already made. Perhaps from their rep, or from Joan's friend talking them up.

I've been in meetings like that where everyone pretends (even to themselves) that they're going to weigh each vendor equally, but they have a favorite from the beginning, and unless the vendor manages to fuck up the presentation in a major way, that's who they go with in the end. And those meetings are always a breeze because no one is asking the tough questions or pressing for better answers. Meanwhile, the other guys get raked over the coals because they are the underdog before they step foot in the place.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:02 PM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


And when that meeting doesn't go well, he praises Bob for "handling it like a man" or words to that effect. (Isn't that funny.) And then Bob gets rewarded with a position on the Chevy account.

Bob was sent to fail so Cutler could appear to save him, thus bringing him into his confidence. Plus, as has been noted, losing an SCDP client further suits Cutler's purposes.

re Joan, part of Pete's reaction is about his feeling that he is being shut out. It might not have been in proper proportion to Joan's actions. He keeps throwing fits when people step out of line, but no one shares his outrage the way he wants them to.

The interesting thing to me is the contrast between Joan's actions and her attacking Don when he lost Jaguar. "just once I'd like you to say 'we'". Pete had similar reactions to the two situations (both also unfolding in the board room).
posted by dry white toast at 9:12 PM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


There's a huge difference between a character thinking "I can do this" and a character actually being able to do it.

Of course. That's not what Hendricks was talking about. She described it like a revelation for Joan. Like Joan has this realization that she actually has what it takes to be an accounts person, and then runs with it.

Because it's not the Joan show. There are million factors that go into a question like "does SC&P get account X?"

See this is just getting silly. So Joan bungles the meeting but nothing bad comes of it, and SC&P gets the account but not because of Joan, because of some other random set of offscreen events? And Joan thinks she's up to the job, but she's deceiving herself, but everything works out just as if she had been? Why infer all this cause-with-no-effect, when what we actually saw was simply that Joan made good on her scheme? After the meeting, Peggy tells Joan I know you can do this. Why would she say that after sitting through a client meeting that Joan just fucked up?

sweetkid, it's not "sparkly win Joan Pulls It off," it was dicey in the middle there and nervewracking because things always end up shitty for Joan. I don't get why you see a success here for Joan as pollyannaish or whatever, it's like the first solid thing that's happened to her EVER, career-wise. It's been a long slog all season (all show) to get her to the point where she could make this move. And it's been set up this year episode by episode.

I just rewatched the Peggy/Joan scene. The first thing Peggy says is that Joan just threw away the account. I suspect that's why everyone got such a strong impression that the meeting was bungled. But that was just the writers fucking with us, knowing how nervous we would be about the meeting. As the the P/J argument continues, it becomes clear that what Peggy's talking about is that Joan doesn't deserve to keep the account--not that she jeopardized the client relationship, but that she didn't follow the rules. She says "I know you want this. And now you can't have it. You could have. But now you can't." And Joan's asking her what Peggy's going to "do"--what would she be referring to if the problem was that the meeting had gone badly? And Joan insists that she is NOT going to give up the account, and that she had to go about it the way she did. Through it all Peggy never suggests that Joan mishandled the client.

Whew I'm firmly in "someone is wrong on the internet" territory, yikes! But I think what happened in this episode was such a culmination for Joan, AT LAST a major move forward; and it was worked up to for a long time, that she was finally able to put together her experience and a good opportunity and a crazy gutsy power play. So it's sad that it's being interpreted as Joan fucking up and getting in over her head. And getting Avon (prospectively), but through luck I guess. In spite of herself, instead of because of everything she's been through and learned.
posted by torticat at 10:07 PM on June 4, 2013 [7 favorites]


Don't step on my toes, torticat.
posted by someone is wrong on the internet at 10:24 PM on June 4, 2013 [6 favorites]




Speaking of creepy timing, I believe this thread is due to close in a couple of hours.
posted by psoas at 7:40 AM on June 5, 2013


But I think what happened in this episode was such a culmination for Joan, AT LAST a major move forward; and it was worked up to for a long time, that she was finally able to put together her experience and a good opportunity and a crazy gutsy power play.

Yeah, that's my read too. I think her first meeting with the guy was great; her second was slightly bumbling and she had to lean on Peggy's experience a little more than the average account guy, which probably made Peggy uneasy and contributed to Peg's feelings of unhappiness about the whole situation. But I think in terms of self-esteem and no longer accepting the gendered status quo--which would have her lead the guy around the office like a secretary, at best--it's a huge success for Joan. She's no longer waiting for men to give her what she wants. She's taking it, and working with another woman to get it, too. Huge huge huge.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:46 AM on June 5, 2013 [5 favorites]


She's no longer waiting for men to give her what she wants. She's taking it, and working with another woman to get it, too. Huge huge huge.

I agree with this. But I think that messing up the second meeting was a learning for her.
posted by sweetkid at 7:48 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also for heaven's sake someone start a new thread! I did this one.
posted by sweetkid at 7:48 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Mad Style post for "A Tale of Two Cities" is up!
posted by orange swan at 7:56 AM on June 5, 2013


We’re bringing this up because we felt like this scene did more to depict the wasteland of the current Draper marriage than a thousand shots of Don mournfully staring ahead and regretting his sins. Megan is so brittle, clipped, and defensive with him now. It’s almost like she expects at any moment to get her feelings hurt or get slapped. And they both did that whole “Haha I’m joking about this but really I’m not” thing; she called marrying Don the biggest mistake of her life and Don said that he hated actresses. Ha. Ha.

Man, it seems I'm the only one who read their relationship as healthy this episode. My marriage is full of teasing like this. We've never seen them achieve that level of honesty before. It means they both feel they're safe.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:10 AM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


You need a good hook for a new post - "let's talk about Mad Men for another month" will get deleted straight away.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:11 AM on June 5, 2013


A collection of all the conspiracy theory Sharon Tate ideas maybe? warming aglow and Vulture have good round ups, plus stuff that includes the most recent trip to the Hollywood hills.....
posted by The Whelk at 8:12 AM on June 5, 2013


yea I think that's a good idea Whelk.
posted by sweetkid at 8:16 AM on June 5, 2013


Man, it seems I'm the only one who read their relationship as healthy this episode. My marriage is full of teasing like this. We've never seen them achieve that level of honesty before. It means they both feel they're safe.

Yea, I don't agree that they're safe. There's a lot of subtext of anger and resentment in those scenes.
posted by sweetkid at 8:17 AM on June 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm digging this mad style more than the usual ones, if only cause I also noticed this.

. Not coincidentally, Megan has been smoking up a storm this season.

Given the line about cigarettes from the swinger couple earlier in the season, and Don's narrative connection to cigarettes ( he's cut way down, but hasn't quit entirely), it's pretty easy thematic math to go cigarettes = not worth the wrinkles = Don is bad for you.
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yea, I don't agree that they're safe. There's a lot of subtext of anger and resentment in those scenes.

I didn't read that in their interactions at all, and it's not really supported by what TLo is saying about the costuming choices (they're dressed roughly as equals in their apartment for the first time) either. They're honestly communicating their feelings while also being physically affectionate to one another. Those feelings are dark, sure, but it's not like they're being reactive or resentful about that. Angry Don--and Angry Megan--don't really hide it. They call each other whores and throw spaghetti at the walls.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:20 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


From Mad Style:

You can see a range of styles here, from actual hippies, to Beautiful People types (like the hostess or the gal in the gladiator sandals; fabulously well-appointed trendsters), to various executives and professionals, to ridiculous posers (like Danny) or desperate climbers, and even to possible burnouts or runaways or hookers, like Lotus. It really was a social free-for-all at this time and place. The idle wealthy and the creative class gave themselves free rein to indulge in the excesses of the counterculture while remaining steadfastly committed to the capitalism that grants them their privilege, which allowed for actual drug addicts and runaways – not to mention all manner of social climbers and hangers-on – to party with socialites and powerful executives.

This is exactly the social climate that resulted in the murders at the Polanski-Tate house.
posted by Sara C. at 8:23 AM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


You know, I kept wondering what Moira's purpose was given how often we see her, but I think I keyed in on it. if Culter's Coup is A Thing, then she's is totally his lieutenant .

Don is dressed like a New Yorker on vacation

* glances at brown jacket, off white pants and tie combination he brought for a vacation in Chicago*

Well, yeah, so's your face.
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 AM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm surprised there wasn't more in the style roundups both this week and the week before about how Megan is only wearing pants at home now. Don's vision of her as a giving Earth Mother, his feminine ideal, is striking in that Megan has moved further away from that this season, and with Don's twisted view of women, the pants suggest Megan is too masculine for him now. She has her own career and her own life separate from his.

Ironically, Megan only seems to wear dresses for work functions, which has to annoy Don all the more. He certainly responded when, at her Mother's suggestion, she wore a sexy dress to dinner with Don--but now Megan seems to have given up on that entirely. I think that's a conscious design choice, too--ever since the miscarriage, Megan has been in pants, hasn't she?

Also, I thought Roger, out of place or not, looked fabulous in his Navy sportscoat and red ascot. Yummy. I'll favor the sylishly square over the wrinkled hippy flower child look any day.
posted by misha at 8:30 AM on June 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


This is exactly the social climate that resulted in the murders at the Polanski-Tate house.

Yea I had that thought. Interesting. FPP Sara C?
posted by sweetkid at 8:31 AM on June 5, 2013


In this episode, I read the Draper marriage as "doing significantly better than it has all season, but still far from good".
posted by orange swan at 8:33 AM on June 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yeah, that's my read, organge swan. Don is doing caretaking and is actually present--he doesn't cheat, he accepts her ambitions. I think their honesty (which we've never, ever seen in Don before toward a wife!) definitely reflects basic incompatibilities, though. They're not at all on the same page--they just seem to have reached a weary, even laughing acceptance about it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:36 AM on June 5, 2013


My read on the scene was detente- the cold war of the stained marriage has eased up a little, but could still go either way.
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 AM on June 5, 2013


misha, I'm also really surprised about how little Tom & Lorenzo have talked about Megan's pants, and really pants for women in general. Especially this season, Megan is suddenly dressing in a style that has been the predominant style in casual clothes for both women and men since the late 60's. A style that no other character -- with the possible exception of Abe? -- is wearing yet. And that's gone unremarked-on in favor of, like, what color shoes Peggy is wearing.

(Which I thought was a nice catch, but still, jeez...)

Also over the last season, Megan's pants have shifted from slim Laura Petrie style trousers to weathered bell-bottoms. An entire universe unfolded in Megan's pants while we were trying to figure out whether blue and green SPECIFICALLY mean adultery or what.
posted by Sara C. at 8:42 AM on June 5, 2013 [6 favorites]


Sweetkid, I think the Megan = Sharon Tate thing has kind of been talked too much to death in this thread to be the new FPP. And I don't see how an FPP on the Manson murders gets to a new Mad Men commentary thread without mod disapproval.

Hurry, media commentators! Somebody come up with a new theory that's interesting enough to be a Mad Men FPP!
posted by Sara C. at 8:44 AM on June 5, 2013


Tate/Megan and Benson are the two most talked about topics here and elsewhere. What else could be an interesting topic? Possibly the future of Pete?

I don't think the topic needs to be too super compelling. We play pretty nice in here and I feel like the mods just leave us be as long as it's a mostly relevant piece - I mean I posted 1) BETTY OMG and 2) WSJ OMG and it mostly got very little controversy from the overall site.
posted by sweetkid at 8:47 AM on June 5, 2013


Someone do a Larp Trek-style Mad Men screencap comic, and we can build an FPP around it. Plus, then we have a Larp Trek-style Mad Men screencap comic.
posted by COBRA! at 8:50 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Re the Draper marriage, my take this episode was that in the beginning of the episode up until Don's hallucination, I thought they were more distant than they've ever been. Not rancorous, but, like, they just don't even seem to exist in the same universe. In the scene with Megan sitting on his lap and them mutually snarking at each other, I almost forgot they were married. In the scenes with them on the phone about the riots, Megan almost comes off more like his daughter than his wife.

Their difference in ages straddles the Generation Gap in a way that I had never really considered before -- in my mind, the 60's is all about hidebound Olds and their offspring, the Youth Generation. But what happens when you're an old 40 married to a young 25? How do you even talk about something like the '68 Democratic Convention with your spouse when your worldviews are so obviously different, and so tied to a constant like age?

But then Don had that hallucination, and now I'm vaguely hopeful that smoking hash with those hippies was the kick in the ass he needed to maybe kind of try to get his shit together with Megan. Except I think his idea of how to do that is at odds with hers. I mean, if you take the hallucination at face value he wants her barefoot and pregnant at home, having quit her job. A baby would be a second chance for them not because of new life and new hope, but because it would all but require Megan to permanently retire from acting and take on a more maternal domestic role.
posted by Sara C. at 8:53 AM on June 5, 2013


Bob Benson theories would probably be appropriate (I'm buried in copyedits right now so it's hard for me to go internet searching but can be an irresponsible writer if needed for THE CAUSE.)

I think Don pretty obviously recommitted to her at the end of the last episode in the Sharon Tate t-shirt scene. When Don only makes out with a stranger, and doesn't sleep with her, that's commitment. Not saying that their relationship is wine and roses now; it's not. But it looks like it's reached as comfortable a stalemate as it's going to for the two of them.

(Which is why I still think Megan might die. It's like the Mad Men version of retiring and buying a boat.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:56 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, but this was a solid FPP in general. It's someone in a publication of record (blech) saying something substantive about a divisive character. All we really have for Megan/Sharon Tate is a few recaps from usual suspect recap places and that one girl whose dad took that photograph, who is just an ordinary twitterer (so nothing to even link to, there).

I don't know, maybe if we can find anyone more impressive than Uproxx, Slate, and Tom & Lorenzo talking about it, I'll put together a definitive Megan Draper/Sharon Tate FPP with a ton of deep info about Manson family and the murders and the parallels between Megan and Sharon. But all I've really got right now is those recapper sources and some wikipedia articles, which isn't a strong FPP.
posted by Sara C. at 8:58 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


When Don only makes out with a stranger, and doesn't sleep with her, that's commitment.

I still can't decide if Don hallucinated the whole making out with blond lady but being interrupted thing, possibly while floating face-down in the pool, or if he actually did make out with her and the hallucination started with seeing Megan instead of the dark-haired hippie in the pink peasant top who was actually sitting right next to him around the hookah.
posted by Sara C. at 9:06 AM on June 5, 2013


I'm buried in copyedits right now so it's hard for me to go internet searching but can be an irresponsible writer if needed for THE CAUSE.

You know, these 'priorities' of yours are starting to concern me...
posted by sweetkid at 9:07 AM on June 5, 2013 [4 favorites]



(Which is why I still think Megan might die. It's like the Mad Men version of retiring and buying a boat.)


Ha, that's great. I agree with you that Don recommitted in the tshirt scene, but the whole time I saw Megan last episode I had ominous feelings. Not really because I think she's going to die - I'm honestly not sure. Just something is really, really off there.
posted by sweetkid at 9:09 AM on June 5, 2013


I still can't decide if Don hallucinated the whole making out with blond lady but being interrupted thing, possibly while floating face-down in the pool, or if he actually did make out with her and the hallucination started with seeing Megan instead of the dark-haired hippie in the pink peasant top who was actually sitting right next to him around the hookah.

My husband pointed out that it's probably all a hallucination (in which case, Don interrupts his own fantasy with another fantasy of Megan! How's that for commitment) because he gets up from the hookah circle and says he's going to go take a drink from the pool.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:10 AM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


Was it in this thread that someone mentioned that the hookah blond is like an on-trend version of Betty? Possibly Sara C. mentioned it?

I can really see it in the Mad Style screencaps.
posted by sweetkid at 9:16 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also it's so weird to me but Stan really looks, dresses and acts a lot like someone I would work with or hang out with here in 2013. Even the "this is my stop" comment where he ducks out of the political talk.

Just - argh he is so a contemporary Creative Guy. Except that he wouldn't be smoking pot in the office, regretfully. Drinking PBR from the office keg more like.
posted by sweetkid at 9:19 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Whelk: "* glances at brown jacket, off white pants and tie combination he brought for a vacation in Chicago*"

"Counting those, you've already packed 6 kimonos."
"That's... all right. So, here's 7."
"We're in Philadelphia for 48 hours.
"So that's 7. So I need... actually, I need one more; eight."
"How many tea services can you do?
posted by Chrysostom at 9:26 AM on June 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


sweetkid, I was just thinking about that, re Stan.

I think they pulled the same thing they later did with Ted, where they had to humanize a character who was painted as a huge asshole villain, but, like, how do you back out of the corner where the dude is in a hotel room reading playboy and trying to coerce Peggy into stripping for him? He was SUCH a fucking douchebag when we met him.

And like Ted, I buy that he's softened with the years. But I think some of his characterization is kind of out of nowhere.

Also, re him seeming contemporary, I think that's partially because of the beard, which reads Williamsburg-ish with his hairstyle and the army surplus looking shirts he wears in the office.
posted by Sara C. at 9:29 AM on June 5, 2013


I still can't decide if Don hallucinated the whole making out with blond lady but being interrupted thing, possibly while floating face-down in the pool, or if he actually did make out with her and the hallucination started with seeing Megan instead of the dark-haired hippie in the pink peasant top who was actually sitting right next to him around the hookah.

My take was that the making out was a hallucination also. But let's not give Don too much credit - by choosing to sit down at the hookah he significantly ramped up the odds of him, at the very least, making out with someone. And for all we know he did something like that for real, while drugged out, on his way to the pool.
posted by mikepop at 9:59 AM on June 5, 2013


Stan's visual transformation with that beard is really amazing to me. Without it, he looked plausibly like he could be Nathan Fillion's son or something, but with it...well, not so much.

Also, did anyone notice Jim Cutler's affected right face by the window after talking to Bob the first time about Manischewitz? That was a funny little character moment. The differences between him and Roger really came out this episode -- Roger could never muster enough conviction to get in any of the conflicts that Cutler gets into in this episode, and I wonder if that has anything to do with their upbringings. We know that Roger has always led a pretty charmed life as the pampered son, and while Cutler gives every indication of having come from a pretty privileged place he doesn't seem to share Roger's apathy.
posted by invitapriore at 10:03 AM on June 5, 2013


Re the new FPP, if you take my link about the Vanhouten parole hearing, and add it to the Megan/Tate coverage, you can frame it as weird life/fiction timing. Good writers grab those parallels. Aaron Sorkin has pulled it off once or twice, including a West Wing episode about a potential presidential pardon gone wrong which lined up eerily with a minor Clinton scandal about some pardons he issued.

It seems entirely plausible to me that Weiner has built up the Megan/Tate parallels to coincide with the parole hearing.
posted by dry white toast at 10:05 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Roger used to be about those office politics. He manipulated Pete in Season 1 in a way that very closely resembles how Jim Cutler dealt with Bob. And there was some strong tension between him and Don in Season 3.

I liked TLo's catch of Moira getting off the elevator with Cutler during the Joan/Peggy scene.
posted by dry white toast at 10:09 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Roger could never muster enough conviction to get in any of the conflicts that Cutler gets into in this episode

It's funny, because both of them are obviously petulant children at heart. But they are petulant in different ways. Roger is likely to blow up in a "GIMME THAT ITS MINE" way, whereas Cutler is more likely to lose it over notions of authority: "ITS MY TURN TO TALK YOU DONT TALK". I mean, the fact that someone like Ginsberg stood up to him is absolutely at the core of his plans for the agency.

Also I'm pretty sure that long stare out the window is him pouting like a baby because he wanted to fire Ginsberg and Ted told him that he needed to make up and get along.
posted by Sara C. at 10:12 AM on June 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


Also, TLo focused on Bob's brown suit in the scene with Jim and Ted without noting that Bob's tie was a mix of the colours Jim and Ted were wearing.
posted by dry white toast at 10:14 AM on June 5, 2013


Wow, it's really unlike T & Lo to miss a tie pattern. They're losing their edge.
posted by Sara C. at 10:16 AM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


Speaking of weird life/fiction timing, on a much smaller and personal scale than Tate/Manson/Megan/Vanhouten, over the weekend I was having a heated/passionate discussion-maybe-an-argument with a family member and was like "this is what you need to do! this is the only option, there aren't any other choices!" and realized those were the EXACT words I'd used the previous week when discussing something in my own life with someone. It was revelatory for me.

It sort of brought me back to the "shameful, shameful day" discussion we had around the MLK episode, when Trudy lobbed the word at Pete and then he used it with Harry when they had their office fight.

It's like, as much as we think we're having interaction with other people, we're really just talking to ourselves.
posted by sweetkid at 10:23 AM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


I have always considered those my Lebowski moments. "This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man."
posted by readery at 10:38 AM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh yeah, I meant to say this earlier, but I half expected the blond party host to actually be Sharon Tate.*

*I'm sure a lot of the details were wrong, but i found even reading the Wikipedia entry to be too fucking sad, so I base my hunches on random notions.
posted by purpleclover at 12:19 PM on June 5, 2013


Hey maybe we can just invade this thread. I mean, they're already think about porn names for the characters.
posted by dry white toast at 12:21 PM on June 5, 2013


After reading this week's (highly enjoyable) Mad Style: Plaid jackets: What's up with that? Think of Roger dropping in at Joan's apartment, Peggy in the Avon meeting, Ginsberg refusing to go to the Manischewitz meeting.
posted by purpleclover at 1:06 PM on June 5, 2013


Do you mean, like are they meant to call back to each other?

Peggy's plaid suit is a Professional Business Lady chanel type thing. She also tends to favor plaids. T&Lo mention the schoolgirl plaids she used to wear, which I don't think is terribly relevant here, though I do think it's relevant that this plaid manifests as a bold navy (or maybe black?) pattern, not unlike the outfit she wore when she told Don to "MOVE FORWARD".

Ginsberg also wears a lot of plaid, and I think they make a good point about his clashing patterns signaling his chaotic thoughts. I've always wondered if there's an intention to tie Peggy and Ginsberg together with sloppy ill fitting clothes and plaid. Once upon a time, Peggy was the out-of-place junior copywriter who wore the same three ill-fitting plaid outfits over and over.

Roger? I don't know. I don't usually think of Roger as calling back to either Peggy or Ginsberg often, and that scene isn't like the other two. That said, he is a complicated and noisy work-related distraction in that particular scene. I'm also tempted to create some kind of "messenger" or "shepherding" theme for all three characters in their respective scenes, but I don't think it really works.
posted by Sara C. at 1:49 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was thinking about them as disruptors. Messengers aren't too far off.
posted by purpleclover at 2:03 PM on June 5, 2013


One thing I've been wanting to mention that is totally out of place right here is the scene where Cutler tells Bob to go to the Manischewitz meeting. We get a long linger on James Wolk's face as he walks away, and most any other show would reveal how Bob was feeling after a big moment like this and give a glimpse of his motives or mood: scheming, smug satisfaction, confusion. anxiety.

But we get...nothing. I couldn't read anything there. So we're still in the dark. Pretty brilliant.
posted by sweetkid at 2:06 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


New theory: Bob Benson is an android.
posted by Sara C. at 2:10 PM on June 5, 2013


New theory: Bob Benson is an android

This has been sort of bothering me all day: there was some TV show where there was this guy who was a perfect politician, came in and was really smooth, said the right thing and everything, and then when one of the characters was alone in a room with him, he was just totally "off," like a robot that had powered down. I can't for the life of me remember what show it was.

Actually as I'm typing this I think it might have been Parks and Rec? Is that it? Anyone remember this?
posted by sweetkid at 2:14 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, it was Parks and Rec. Ben worked for the guy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:19 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


LOVE YA THANKS
posted by sweetkid at 2:20 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]




But Megan's not all wavy in the Next Time on Mad Men scenes like Anna was.

Also, if Megan dies, what happens to Don? He went down a MAJOR spiral after Betty just dumped him. If Megan dies while carrying his child - do we get a final season of him just being a mess? I don't think I would be into that.
posted by sweetkid at 2:35 PM on June 5, 2013


I'm way in on the Megan-Is-Dead thing. Creepy!
posted by purpleclover at 2:39 PM on June 5, 2013


those UpRoxx commenters are hilarious. We should invite them over on Sunday. I'll get out the chip n dip.
posted by sweetkid at 2:50 PM on June 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


Also there's speculation in those comments about how Betty says "she's 25" but maybe not talking about Megan since Megan's 27. But it's just like Betty to make up some random age that is "too-young child bride" and not have it be accurate. I'm surprised it's not "she's 17" or something. But yeah I figured she's talking about Megan. Who else?
posted by sweetkid at 2:51 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Down the "Megan is already dead" rabbit hole.

Oh god, I just realized that she could be pregnant with her already-dead child in that scene. SPOOOOOKY.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:59 PM on June 5, 2013


The miscarried baby! Yes, PhoB, in was just coming back to post that!
posted by purpleclover at 3:01 PM on June 5, 2013


"Megan is already dead" is what I was getting at upthread when I noted that, at the end of the episode, Don hasn't actually made it home yet.

Though, again, I don't think they're killing Megan.

Except that I think Megan is the only person Don has hallucinated (as opposed to remembered) that wasn't dead.
posted by Sara C. at 3:08 PM on June 5, 2013


Now I'm comfortable with the new FPP being a Megan/Sharon tate thing. At least there are NEW theories about it as opposed to the same old ones from two weeks ago about a t-shirt.

(That said I unfortunately don't have time to make it myself, today, unfortunately.)
posted by Sara C. at 3:09 PM on June 5, 2013


I'm telling you, Bob Benson is Jim Cutler's new Sith apprentice.

Also, given the foreshadowing and everything that's been written, I think things will go pear-shaped for Don and SCDP (ie the old guard) right at the end. No last minute uptick. It will end darkly.
posted by dry white toast at 3:09 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


But we have a whole other year/season for shit to get even darker. So if SC&P implodes in the next 2-3 episodes, WTF is 1969 going to be about?

I mean, I vote Stonewall and everyone gets a puppy and Peggy joins NOW and Sally listens to David Bowie for the first time, but that seems unlikely.
posted by Sara C. at 3:16 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


I don't know about Megan, but I am POSITIVE that Peggy and Ted are going to sleep together. Or almost sleep together. Or something.

That close up on his face as he says "I'm going to cut you off!" in a tispy/flirty manner is over the shoulder of the same green suit Peggy is wearing in the last shot of her frantically either locking or unlocking her apartment door.

Tom & Lorenzo are going to LOVE that she's wearing a green suit.

I think Weiner is trolling us so hard with the "I didn't know if I should tell you" thing from Megan.

I am DYING to know what someone being 25 has to do with anything.
posted by Sara C. at 3:28 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


Someone in the Uproxx comment thread made another AMAZING point, if I were to agree that Megan will die/is dead:

Megan is 27.

27 club.

THINK ABOUT IT
posted by Sara C. at 3:33 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


guys what if its actually sylvia who dies
posted by Sara C. at 3:35 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Who would care though? Don seems over her and no one else knows who she is
posted by sweetkid at 3:43 PM on June 5, 2013


I was going to say the same thing. Her death wouldn't really serve the story, and her character's death wouldn't really have the "Holy Shit" effect on viewers that Lane's death had.
posted by Dr. Zira at 3:45 PM on June 5, 2013


I thought about the 27 club with the Joan Baez song at the end of the episode.
posted by dry white toast at 3:48 PM on June 5, 2013


What if Sylvia dies, and it's not a BIG SCARY REVEAL that people are expected to care about?

What if that scene with Megan is just, "I didn't know if I should tell you this, but Sylvia had a heart attack while you were in California. Her funeral is Monday. Do you think we should go?"

It would also explain Artie coming to the Drapers' door, and Don answering rather than leaving it to Megan.

What if all this other stuff is just us getting trolled? Or alternately, what if it's all pointing at something, but that something doesn't happen in episode 11 and/or none of the snippets in the promo refer to it?

Also, even if Don is over her, her death could bring other feelings bubbling to the surface. It would be very like the show to have Don return from California resolved to make things right with Megan, only for Sylvia to come back in the most inconvenient and complicated possible way.
posted by Sara C. at 4:09 PM on June 5, 2013


What it reminds me of is my feelings waiting for Season 2 to be about what happened to Peggy's baby.

In other words

we are being trolled so hard.
posted by Sara C. at 4:31 PM on June 5, 2013 [6 favorites]




Dammit, Matt Weiner, if you're going to continue to troll me with the "next on" packages, at least do me the grand favor of putting an inflatable unicorn horn on Moira and sending her through the background of some scenes, or have Pete walk around scowling while holding a basket of kittens or something. Bonus trollpoints if one of those kittens is mewing and trying to climb his tie and nest in his stupid, stupid hair.
posted by palomar at 5:32 PM on June 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


I don't think the "Megan's already dead" theory works out for a couple of reasons. Don specifically directs Dawn to get her on the phone when he gets back to the office, and we know she's having a conversation next week in the Draper living room, in which you can see her reflection in the patio doors. I would think that if Megan's a hallucination, Weiner would be careful not to shoot her in a way that makes it obvious she's got a reflection.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:12 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think it could have worked without the "Next Time On" promo, because if Don doesn't know there's been a terrible accident, he could have Dawn try to get her on the phone.

That said, the footage of Megan in the "Next Time On" just doesn't seem ghostly or hallucinogenic at all. It's just the living room, with the same lighting as usual, shot the same way as usual. Every time Don has had a vision, it's seemed otherworldly in some way.

Has Don ever had a flashback within the world of the show? The only flashbacks I remember are to his childhood and in the episode where everybody in Sterling Cooper land flashes back to the 50s. Also maybe the crazy cheating woman in the yellow dress last season, but frankly I still don't know what to make of that episode.
posted by Sara C. at 6:55 PM on June 5, 2013


there were flashbacks to when he worked at the car dealership, but I don't know if those were "his" flashbacks or not.
posted by sweetkid at 7:08 PM on June 5, 2013


But that's still before the world of the show, right?

My point is that he's never flashed back to a time currently within the years we've seen. We saw flashbacks of his childhood, of serving in Korea, of various points in his and Anna's relationship, and of how he came to work at Sterling Cooper. We haven't seen flashbacks to a sliver of 1962 we didn't see.

Hm, except for Peggy's flashback to Don visiting her in the hospital and him telling her "It'll surprise you how much this never happened". Does that count? It is a Peggy flashback, right?

I don't know, "It'll surprise you how much this never happened" might mean that it's possible his conversation with Megan in the next episode is a flashback.

My prediction is that "I don't know if I should've told you..." ends with "... but Arlene came onto me a few weeks ago when you weren't home." Or something else totally innocuous that doesn't further the plot in any way we'd recognize from here.
posted by Sara C. at 7:17 PM on June 5, 2013


That supercut is amazing just to be reminded of what Stan used to look like barely a year ago.

I still maintain that none of the men on the show actually had time to grow as much hair as they seem to have acquired between 1967 and 1968.
posted by Sara C. at 7:22 PM on June 5, 2013


That supercut makes me want to hug the show so hard and never let go.

Seriously, so much depth and awesome in this show.
posted by sweetkid at 7:33 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


ok I'm a little drunk. where is the new thread?
posted by sweetkid at 7:49 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was wondering the same thing and then I fell down the Stephen Fry depression wormhole and now I'm back having eaten half a challah so...

(I still don't think Megan's going to die.)
posted by Sara C. at 7:59 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


oh no I wanted to avoid the Stephen Fry thing.
posted by sweetkid at 8:03 PM on June 5, 2013


I've been thinking about Rosemary's Baby, and I'm starting to wonder whether or not the T-shirt was a red herring that's distracting us from the more meatier reference in Rosemary's Baby. Perhaps the foreshadowing isn't so much about Megan being murdered, as it is about about Megan having to make a choice about whether to keep her independence in the face of a conspiracy to bring her into a metaphorical coven of the mainstream. Does she hang on to her career, or does she sacrifice it to become a wife and mother?
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:03 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Now I'm half-tempted to make a SLYT supercut FPP.
posted by box at 8:04 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't know about covens or anything, but yes. That has been Megan's arc for this entire season. She knows that the "correct answer" as far as everyone on the planet is concerned is "oh just go have a baby everything will be fine".

Except I don't think she wants to have kids. I especially don't think she wants a baby right now.

So the real question is, will she have a baby in order to save her marriage? That's basically what she's asking her mom in that scene just before the I Love Puppies dinner.
posted by Sara C. at 8:17 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I hope noone makes megan eat the chocolate moose
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on June 5, 2013 [3 favorites]



So the real question is, will she have a baby in order to save her marriage?


Annie:The only question is, is 'Will it change my wife'?
Alvy: Will it change your wife?!
Annie: Will it change my life?
Alvy: Yeah, but you said, 'Will it change my wife?'
Annie: No I didn't. I said, 'Will it change my life, Alvy?'
Alvy: (directly to audience) She said, 'Will it change my wife?' You heard that, because you were there. So I'm not crazy.
posted by sweetkid at 8:23 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't like that my dog gets to break the fourth wall.
posted by Sara C. at 8:24 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


you're the one who named your dog after a movie I have memorized
posted by sweetkid at 8:25 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I still maintain that none of the men on the show actually had time to grow as much hair as they seem to have acquired between 1967 and 1968.

I can't speak to anyone's hair growth but Jay Ferguson, who plays Stan, because he talks about the process of growing out his beard in this interview. They asked him to start growing it out in August, and when he went in for hair and makeup tests on 10/28, he says he looked "like a cross between Jeremiah Johnson and Tom Hanks in Castaway." So they had to trim him down quite a bit. I'd like to have seen some photos of the pre-trim beard, because DAMN.

It's a good interview overall, if you haven't read it before.
posted by palomar at 8:27 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Jay Ferguson is in the running for Hottest Guy on Mad Men in my mind, impressive considering Jon Hamm, John Slattery and James Wolk also make frequent appearances.

Man I've always had a thing about guys with J names.

posted by sweetkid at 8:30 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


I would think that if Megan's a hallucination, Weiner would be careful not to shoot her in a way that makes it obvious she's got a reflection.

But Dr. Zira, she's a hallucination, not a ghost (or a vampire)! I don't think there are rules about whether hallucinations can cast reflections.

I'm so creeped out by that Uproxx thing I've got chills. I suppose if someone has to die, I'm okay with it being Megan, even though I've always liked her. I don't want to lose Ginsberg, Stan, Pete, Sterling, or really anyone else. Guess I wouldn't care if Bob shoved off, but that seems unlikely.
posted by torticat at 8:33 PM on June 5, 2013


I hope noone makes megan eat the chocolate moose

"Pffft! Ugh! God! Gross! There's moose in this!?"

"Not that kind of moose."

"Elk then, whatever! Ugh! Eggh! "
posted by Sys Rq at 8:41 PM on June 5, 2013


What's fucked up is that I can literally imagine almost any character -- barring the kids -- dying at this point.

I don't think they'll kill Don, because that's been done with Six Feet Under. Otherwise, these people are so miserable I really do think any one of them could go and it wouldn't seem out of character.

The thing to do, in my opinion, would be to have somebody just not come back next year, and have nobody ever talk about it again. Not like they never existed, but like -- to take the most popular example -- Megan isn't in Season 7 and instead you've got neighbors bringing Don casseroles, and the house is a wreck. And maybe Gene says something at the dinner table because he's too little to understand Things We Don't Talk About. Maybe there are whispers around SC&P. But otherwise, she's just gone.

I think that would be a million times more powerful than a big traumatic MEGAN DIES thing.
posted by Sara C. at 8:45 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


(That said, okay, that clip with Ted coming in through a doorway into what looks like a bedroom - that is Peggy's apartment, right? He's going to go to Peggy's apartment and then something is going to happen and this can only mean oh fuck why I am doing this fooled again by the damn "next on" package. Sigh.)

I don't know WHERE that place is, but it's not Peggy's apartment, it looks like quite a nice place. It's not a hotel room either. Maybe it's Ted's own house? Don't know why we'd be there, but maybe it would be just long enough for him to answer the phone or something.
posted by torticat at 8:45 PM on June 5, 2013


I don't know, but the place where Peggy is either unlocking or locking a zillion locks is DEFINITELY her place. That whole "I have a million locks on my door" is not only a 70s NYC trope, it's also 100% real. Every New York apartment I ever lived in had at least three locks on the door. I've even been to older people's Upper West Side apartments which STILL have four or five working locks on the door because they've been the only tenants and they've kept things up nicely.
posted by Sara C. at 8:48 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


We need a guest appearance by Charles Grodin as Cutler's golf buddy who turns up to hear them pitch a new brand of chocolate mousse.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:48 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Reading Mad Style, I noticed that in the scene where Ted brushes off Joan's initial attempt at handling Avon, Peggy is wearing the same checked scarf that she wore at her job interview with Ted.
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:01 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Mr. The Whelk, I am interested in your thoughts on the prospect of Harry Crane's promulgation of invasive species of cravats in Laurel Canyon.
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:09 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sadly the ascot and its sister species, the Cravat, where ill-suited for the harsh canynon environment and overtaken by opportunistic predatory puka shells and glass beads.
posted by The Whelk at 9:14 PM on June 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


But it's just like Betty to make up some random age that is "too-young child bride" and not have it be accurate. I'm surprised it's not "she's 17" or something. But yeah I figured she's talking about Megan. Who else?

Yeah, Betty's actually done it before with Megan, soon after Don remarried she was complaining at some point about his 20yo wife. I guess Megan was 25 then? So it would make sense that Betty's bumped it up a few years but is still exaggerating/talking in round numbers. :)

I agree Betty has to be talking about Megan but have no clue what the context of that comment could be... and does "she's 25" (present tense) argue that Megan's still alive? Hm. Normally I never watch the "Next week..."s and I think I'm going back to that policy. Such IRRITATING tidbits of non-information.
posted by torticat at 9:17 PM on June 5, 2013


Guys, are we sure Betty isn't talking about some non-Megan 25 year old?

Maybe somebody hits on Henry at a function.

Maybe Glenn brings a hooker to prom.

Maybe Sally's running with a new crowd... of stockbrokers.
posted by Sara C. at 9:19 PM on June 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Maybe somebody hits on Henry at a function.

LOL, I actually was speculating on this to myself but rejected the idea; Henry's concern right now is about people hitting on Betty.

Also considered the possibility of a friend for Sally; I suppose Sally could get involved in an older crowd that would be concerning to Betty due to all the goings-on out there in the wider world. But as you suggest--25 seems too old for a scenario like that.

I dunno, it's a mystery.
posted by torticat at 9:28 PM on June 5, 2013



The thing to do, in my opinion, would be to have somebody just not come back next year, and have nobody ever talk about it again. Not like they never existed, but like -- to take the most popular example -- Megan isn't in Season 7 and instead you've got neighbors bringing Don casseroles, and the house is a wreck. And maybe Gene says something at the dinner table because he's too little to understand Things We Don't Talk About. Maybe there are whispers around SC&P. But otherwise, she's just gone.


I loved this idea so much I spent an entire plane ride trying to figure out how the aftermath would shake things up - and as much as I want a Six-Feet-Under-Style accidental Don Death early on ...and as much as the following idea is unworkable cause A)Main character and B) cuts the cast in two I want a season opening that starts like what Sarah C says..and then has Don quitting. Straight up quitting and selling the apartment (cue final shot of apartment covered in white fabric and him slinking out via the Maid's door) and then Don ...vanishes from the story not to return until Episode 7.
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


All the stabbings and heart attacks so far this season have been men, not women. I feel like a man is going to get stabbed in the heart. When Peggy stabbed Abe, she had that white dress with red on it earlier in the show maybe foreshadowing that moment. Has anyone else worn white with red?

It shouldn't be Don, I don't think, as Sylvia broke his heart already. And Roger's had a heart attack, too. Abe's been stabbed, Stan got Exacto knife stabbed, Ken nearly died in the car, so who is left?

Maybe Ginsberg goes nuts and stabs Cutler! Pete Campbell would be my next guess, hence that "Take a Little Piece of My Heart" end credit music. Except Pete can't get stabbed, because Bob. You just know that Bob would step in front of Pete to save him. So then Bob gets stabbed in the chest, not realizing until too late that he doesn't have an extra heart to spare..

If Ted's invisible wife dies, Peggy's storyline could get really interesting, though.
posted by misha at 10:36 PM on June 5, 2013


not realizing until too late that he doesn't have an extra heart to spare..

Point of order, Bob, as a Time Lord, has two hearts.

Also we saw Ted's wife (er, once, briefly, when he was verbally licking Peggy.)
posted by The Whelk at 10:39 PM on June 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


I leave this thread alone for 12 hours, and you guys are parsing the "next week" clips. That way lies madness!!
posted by dry white toast at 5:58 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


My prediction is that Don is not going to die, but he's going to have a near miss. All season he's looked like a heart attack waiting to happen.

Re: "She's 25," rounding off people's ages in conversation is a very common thing IME.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:11 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think it would be weird to have someone else get stabbed after Peggy already stabbed Abe.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:05 AM on June 6, 2013


Who was it that threw the exacto knife that stabbed Stan in the arm?
posted by Sara C. at 7:10 AM on June 6, 2013


Wait, you know, I can't believe it just occurred to me, because duh, but, Stan stabbed in arm, Abe stabbed in arm.

Maybe Ginsberg got a rush from his first taste of arm blood and went on an arm-stabbing spree and he's the one that stabbed Abe?
posted by Sys Rq at 7:30 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Stan stabbed in arm, Abe stabbed in arm

Numb arm! Numb arm! NARM!

Who's with me.

(no not really)
posted by sweetkid at 8:03 AM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


Isn't this thread closing today? Who's doing the new one? I just want you to know we're all counting on you.

Hundreds of beanplating comments could be lost forever. For just 27 cents a day, or the cost of one of your daily FPP allotments, you could save these beautiful creatures from extinction.
posted by sweetkid at 8:09 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm stealing box's idea and working on a super cut FPP, but it may not go up until after this thread closes, because workday. I won't mind at all if someone wants to post something sooner.
posted by donajo at 8:21 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'll take it. That sounds like it will be great!
posted by sweetkid at 8:24 AM on June 6, 2013


My prediction is that Don is not going to die, but he's going to have a near miss. All season he's looked like a heart attack waiting to happen.

I'm calling lung cancer. Hasn't he been coughing a lot this season? And his doctor buddy sure did make a big deal out of it at the beginning. A terminal illness like this satisfies all the themes of death this season, but keeps Hamm in the show for the final season.

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Don isn't looking well this season. Are they doing anything in terms of make-up to do this? I know Kartheiser is shaving back his hairline; Don's hair looks different too, maybe more slicked down? Or is he just sticking out because everyone else is dressing decidedly more groovy?
posted by entropicamericana at 9:17 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm calling lung cancer. Hasn't he been coughing a lot this season? And his doctor buddy sure did make a big deal out of it at the beginning. A terminal illness like this satisfies all the themes of death this season, but keeps Hamm in the show for the final season.

No that would be really REALLY boring.
posted by sweetkid at 9:23 AM on June 6, 2013


entropicamericana, I don't know about the whole season (my guess is no), but in the last episode, he looked flushed, sweaty, and rumpled the entire time. My guess is that it was the convertible and being overdressed and out of sorts, and not a health problem. But this might be contributing to your sense that he "doesn't look well".

Re lung cancer, I'm sure Don will eventually die of lung cancer, but I doubt they'll play it out in the remaining 16 episodes of the series. This isn't The Big C, and I don't know how they'd shift the entire tone of the series to be about Big Scary Cancer Death.
posted by Sara C. at 9:26 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, too much like Six Feet Under.
posted by Sara C. at 9:27 AM on June 6, 2013


Makeup and lighting seems to be going into overtime to make Jon Hamm look as sweaty, clammy, and unappealing as possible. He oozes.

(also, on Steve's beard , I am constantly amazed how I can change the total shape and presentation of my face just by arranging hair in different ways. One trip to the barber turns Viking Mountain Man With A Heart Of Poetry into Slightly Unstable Looking Boy Scout With A Mission.)

((also guys with excellent jaw lines shouldn't cover them up. So there))
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 AM on June 6, 2013


I agree he's been looking rough all season though. When I see Hamm anywhere else like the Daily Show, etc, he looks like his regular scrumptiousness so I assume they're doing something to Draper.
posted by sweetkid at 9:29 AM on June 6, 2013


Steve's beard

Stan?
posted by sweetkid at 9:30 AM on June 6, 2013


Makeup and lighting seems to be going into overtime to make Jon Hamm look as sweaty, clammy, and unappealing as possible. He oozes.

Okay, glad it's not just me.

So does anyone here think Don is actually still capable of making changes in his life that will make him happy? And if so, what would they be?
posted by entropicamericana at 9:31 AM on June 6, 2013


I don't think he was ever really capable of making changes in his life that would make him happy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:33 AM on June 6, 2013


was he ever happy?
posted by sweetkid at 9:34 AM on June 6, 2013


Yes I meant Stan.

And yes, Don has had so many opportunities to make changes for the better. I don't see this ending well for him, at all.
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 AM on June 6, 2013


He oozes

At this point he's also one of the few male characters still drowning in a slick of brylcreem, too.

I don't know that the show is deliberately doing anything to make him look ill or unhealthy.

I think that the show is making him up to look fusty and out of touch and, as The Whelk says, unappealing. I think that nowadays we also associate a lot of the look of men of that generation in that era as our mental picture of what "unhealthy" looks like. Lumpy, pasty, flushed, thin hair, etc. I think the show is making up Jon Hamm to fit that, and not so much making him up to look terminally ill. We all just take one look at the effect and think "you die of cancer in 1974."

People look a lot younger and healthier for their ages than people in the 60s did.
posted by Sara C. at 9:36 AM on June 6, 2013


I don't think he looks like he's sick, he just looks more accurately like a guy who's doing crappy things to his body and is sort of eternally depressed than he did in previous seasons. And when you compare that to Jon Hamm, who is athletic and also has/had bouts of depression but is open and gets treatment for it, you see the difference.

I just think the show is making him look more like a guy who isn't caring for himself, is all.
posted by sweetkid at 9:42 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think the theme of the show is about how it's impossible to be HAPPY™. For Don of course, but really for any of the characters whose inner lives we come to know.

The whole series can be summed up with Pete's complaint, "Why can't good things happen all at once?" There's no magic moment where, through hard work, following the rules, and sheer force of will, you WIN and officially become HAPPY.

I think Don can probably find contentment, or peace, or however you'd phrase getting out of this horrible period that's been going on since about Season 4. But I don't think it will come easily.

I actually like the Roger model, where only by throwing away everything could he start to figure some things out. That said Roger has always had fewer real problems than most of the other characters, and his privilege means that he can just sort of do whatever he wants without having to worry too much. I think it's easier to find peace when you can just divorce your second wife, cut everybody loose, drop acid, and see a shrink four times a week, and you're STILL unimaginably wealthy and powerful. (And even then, you find yourself going toe to toe with a wannabe movie producer over some girl everyone will forget in a week.)
posted by Sara C. at 9:47 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, agree with Sara C. It's a generational thing. You see the same thing when you watch old game shows from the 50s and early 60s--the adults all look lumpy and greasy and have bad teeth. No one else is slicking their hair back; they're also abandoning uncomfortable, structured garments (even the men are starting to wear sportscoats instead of suits). I mean, they've been hinting at illness with Don from season 1 (which also saw the rise of cancer awareness), but I think he'd look really different if we saw him without brylcreem in his hair and wearing more casual clothes.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:51 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Apropos of nothing much, it just occurred to me that the series finale will probably have Frank Zappa's "Plastic People" as the credits music.

(I'm on kind of a Zappa kick today, partially to do with my growing obsession with the late 60s in Southern California.)
posted by Sara C. at 9:54 AM on June 6, 2013


The new post is up.
posted by donajo at 9:56 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Let the great migration BEGIN!
posted by mynameisluka at 10:00 AM on June 6, 2013


Cool I'm just gonna grab a jacket guys meet you over there
posted by sweetkid at 10:03 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


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