That only a mother
May 14, 2013 2:44 AM Subscribe
"My brother Danny lost his virginity at age 25. To a call girl named Monique. Hired by our mother." -- Mara Cohen Marks writes about her brother Danny, suffering from familial dysautonomia and how her mother went above and beyond the call of duty to give him as normal a life as possible.
I think it would all have seemed a lot better if it had clearly been driven by Danny's wishes rather than Mom's. In fact it seemed almost like a test run to see whether she could still get grandkids somehow, with Danny's views on the subject apparently taken for granted.
posted by Segundus at 3:30 AM on May 14, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 3:30 AM on May 14, 2013 [14 favorites]
Some Conservative getting all foam-flecked about a Dutch scheme where disabled folks can get grants for prostitute visits up to 12 times a year.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:33 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:33 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think viewing an event that took place in the late 1980's through the lens of today is not all that useful. These parents seem to have made a lot of decisions geared towards keeping their son alive and giving him a good quality of life, often in the absence of existent medical or social protocols at the time. In retrospect, was this ideal? No. At the time, can I see this seeming like a good idea? Yes.
I didn't have to parent this young man and I'm just not going to be quick to point the "bad mother!" finger.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:35 AM on May 14, 2013 [28 favorites]
I didn't have to parent this young man and I'm just not going to be quick to point the "bad mother!" finger.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:35 AM on May 14, 2013 [28 favorites]
"Sex on Wheels", a documentary on Channel 4, includes the touching story of 26-year-old John who has learning difficulties. His mother decides to hire an escort to help him lose his virginity. I think she did the right thing.
posted by Lezzles at 3:50 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Lezzles at 3:50 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
To be honest, if we lived in the culture I wish we did, I feel as though this should be about as sensational as a child getting their first haircut.
posted by ZaneJ. at 4:01 AM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by ZaneJ. at 4:01 AM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]
"That’s when my mother dared to dream the kinds of dreams most mothers take for granted. "I thought someday he'd meet a girl," she confides."
I cringe at the way that getting a girl is framed as the pinnacle of achievement. As the mother's dream. Followed up repeatedly in later passages by her desire for children.
Where is Danny's agency in any of this? What does he want? And if sex, who would he like to have it with?
Also, super stereotypical, naive and disrespectful understanding of sex workers in general throughout. And yes, the events took place in the 80s, but the story was published last week.
posted by iamkimiam at 4:21 AM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]
I cringe at the way that getting a girl is framed as the pinnacle of achievement. As the mother's dream. Followed up repeatedly in later passages by her desire for children.
Where is Danny's agency in any of this? What does he want? And if sex, who would he like to have it with?
Also, super stereotypical, naive and disrespectful understanding of sex workers in general throughout. And yes, the events took place in the 80s, but the story was published last week.
“A loose lady was going up the elevator looking for ‘Daniel Cohen'! Should I call the police?”Oh my word...somebody else address this because I just don't even know where to start.
“Maybe she’s just a friend from school.”
“Look,” the judge insisted. “She’s an obvious hooker! What the hell does she want with Danny?"
Finally my mother leveled with the judge. “I hired her,” she said.
Even the lawman could see this was the right thing to do. He and my mother had a good laugh."
posted by iamkimiam at 4:21 AM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]
She's lucky she didn't kill him with embarrassment.
posted by orme at 4:38 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by orme at 4:38 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think I'd like to live in a world where hiring sex workers to teach young adults about sex is a normal thing.
There's also a difference between someone feeling they need to lose their virginity, so they hire a sex worker to perform the service, and someone feeling they need to lose it, so they use someone else who may or may not be aware of what's on the table.
posted by corb at 4:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
There's also a difference between someone feeling they need to lose their virginity, so they hire a sex worker to perform the service, and someone feeling they need to lose it, so they use someone else who may or may not be aware of what's on the table.
posted by corb at 4:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
I think I'd like to live in a world where hiring sex workers to teach young adults about sex is a normal thing.
I think I'd like to live in a world where no one had to be a sex worker.
posted by billiebee at 4:51 AM on May 14, 2013 [15 favorites]
I think I'd like to live in a world where no one had to be a sex worker.
posted by billiebee at 4:51 AM on May 14, 2013 [15 favorites]
That was an awkwardly-written article.
Familial dysautonomia is decreasing in incidence because of the availability of genetic testing, and because the population affected is so small that they all know. But it's a very difficult circumstance where early death is the normal outcome and life seems like a series of now-or-never moments. I can imagine that this mother just wanted her child to live as much of normal life (in her estimation) as possible.
posted by zennie at 5:01 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
Familial dysautonomia is decreasing in incidence because of the availability of genetic testing, and because the population affected is so small that they all know. But it's a very difficult circumstance where early death is the normal outcome and life seems like a series of now-or-never moments. I can imagine that this mother just wanted her child to live as much of normal life (in her estimation) as possible.
posted by zennie at 5:01 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think I'd like to live in a world where no one had to be a sex worker.
Are sex workers all coerced? Do they have to be sex workers?
posted by RussHy at 5:03 AM on May 14, 2013 [11 favorites]
Are sex workers all coerced? Do they have to be sex workers?
posted by RussHy at 5:03 AM on May 14, 2013 [11 favorites]
That's right RussHy, in the same way that all women in porn are coerced and no women like to watch porn.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 5:04 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 5:04 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
Yeah, this didn't really seem to be about the young man at all. It really seems to be all about the mother. I was also really off put about the way that the father's objections were dismissed. Because, you know, he's just a father and doesn't have any real input into important issues.
This woman seems like an early ancestor of today's helicopter parents who won't let their precious snowflakes go to college classes by themselves.
posted by DWRoelands at 5:06 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
This woman seems like an early ancestor of today's helicopter parents who won't let their precious snowflakes go to college classes by themselves.
posted by DWRoelands at 5:06 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
Using my sock puppet for (current) professional reasons:
I was a sex worker. I wasn't forced into it, I wasn't forced out of it. I did it because I enjoyed sex, then I'd had enough for a while so I took a break, got into another job that was quite time consuming and chose that over sex work for career longevity reasons.
This is your non-tragic sex worker PSA.
posted by Hosni Mubarak at 5:08 AM on May 14, 2013 [62 favorites]
I was a sex worker. I wasn't forced into it, I wasn't forced out of it. I did it because I enjoyed sex, then I'd had enough for a while so I took a break, got into another job that was quite time consuming and chose that over sex work for career longevity reasons.
This is your non-tragic sex worker PSA.
posted by Hosni Mubarak at 5:08 AM on May 14, 2013 [62 favorites]
Australian comic Jim Jeffries has an altogether more entertaining tale of a similar incident. YT NSFW (duh)
posted by Jakey at 5:14 AM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by Jakey at 5:14 AM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]
I understand this is pretty normal in Germany and some other countries. I don't like the fact that Danny didn't will it himself, but otherwise it's hardly that shocking. Where prostitution is legal it's better that it is seen as an ordinary service than being stuck out in the middle of "forbidden".
posted by Jehan at 5:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Jehan at 5:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
I cannot bring myself to be outraged. A mother sees her son, who she knows could die very soon (and who in fact did die shortly thereafter), and wants to help him experience as much of life as is possible. She is not perfect in her understanding of agency, her son's sexuality, or the dignity of sex workers, but then again it seems like she displayed a level of commitment to her son's care that I know I, even as a parent myself, would struggle to match. It's easy and cute to heap scorn on someone else's choices when they are stuck in a miserable situation that you've never had to deal with yourself. But considering that this was her son, that she presumably knew him as well or better than anyone knew him, and that she was motivated not by validating him as a man but by offering him as much life experience as she could? Good job, mom.
And please, since when is a parent's hope that their child will meet and have a relationship with someone a bad thing? Are we in that fantasy land now where everyone is presumed to be asexual and where a stable, loving romantic relationship isn't something that most people want, for themselves and their families? Or where parents don't hope for grandkids? I'm not willing to pretend. Most parents want to see grandkids someday, and sneering at them for doing so smacks of the dismissive "breeder" nonsense that I'd hoped had faded away by now.
posted by 1adam12 at 5:32 AM on May 14, 2013 [36 favorites]
And please, since when is a parent's hope that their child will meet and have a relationship with someone a bad thing? Are we in that fantasy land now where everyone is presumed to be asexual and where a stable, loving romantic relationship isn't something that most people want, for themselves and their families? Or where parents don't hope for grandkids? I'm not willing to pretend. Most parents want to see grandkids someday, and sneering at them for doing so smacks of the dismissive "breeder" nonsense that I'd hoped had faded away by now.
posted by 1adam12 at 5:32 AM on May 14, 2013 [36 favorites]
I don't like the fact that Danny didn't will it himself, but otherwise it's hardly that shocking.
The fact that Danny didn't will it seems like a pretty big thing to gloss over. Danny's opinion on the subject is pretty much absent (for reasons that are understandable) from the piece, but I don't think we can take it as a given that he was okay with what was happening. The article isn't about a disabled person experiencing something they wanted to experience in the way that was accessible to them, it was about a mother patting herself on the back for giving her child an experience that she thought he wanted, with the disabled person's being more or less silent on the subject. It's possible that this was something sweet, it's also possible that this was really skeevy and gross; without hearing from Danny (which is obviously impossible), there's no way to know.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:37 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
The fact that Danny didn't will it seems like a pretty big thing to gloss over. Danny's opinion on the subject is pretty much absent (for reasons that are understandable) from the piece, but I don't think we can take it as a given that he was okay with what was happening. The article isn't about a disabled person experiencing something they wanted to experience in the way that was accessible to them, it was about a mother patting herself on the back for giving her child an experience that she thought he wanted, with the disabled person's being more or less silent on the subject. It's possible that this was something sweet, it's also possible that this was really skeevy and gross; without hearing from Danny (which is obviously impossible), there's no way to know.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:37 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
The part that made me uncomfortable is his school friend asking about it "shortly after Danny's funeral." Who does that?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:46 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:46 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
I quit reading at: My mother rolled up her sleeves, strapped on her stilettos, and ignored the statistic.
posted by hal9k at 5:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by hal9k at 5:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
"But my mother knew Danny’s first sexual encounter entailed more than simply finding the right girl. For all my brother’s charms, he wasn’t what one would call a smooth operator. For example, Danny was blissfully unaware of a tiny drip of urine that often bloomed around the crotch of his pants. "I didn't want to embarrass him over such a small thing," my mother shrugs.There are such contradictions in the thought processes here, as well as in the writer's representation of them. Also, the mom seems to have some possibly serious boundary issues, especially evidenced by her involvement in what sexual/romantic issues to involve herself in with respect to her son and what issues she dismisses. I imagine that the incontence is a symptom of the medical issue and NOT support for his lack of charms (especially w/r/t finding a bearer of grandchildren for his mother). It's depressing that the mom notices and shrugs it off, that the brother shares it with the world and in this way, that the father's actions are deemed futile and so falls in line, that the doorman and mom get to "have a laugh", that Jay gets to be voucher for such a major event in lieu of mom who "shrieks away" at the thought of seeing the "call girl" that she has "hired" to fulfill her wishes for her son (which aspect of this entails "more than simply finding the right girl" in mom's eyes? Jay's vouching = found!?)...it's all so totally wrong.
[...]
Monique asked if my mother wanted to meet her in person.
"No! I didn't want to meet!" my mother recalls with a shriek. Plus, Jay had already vouched for her."
"I think I'd like to live in a world where no one had to be a sex worker."
What about those who want to be sex workers? All obvious puns and jokes aside, it seems like it could be a very rewarding, fun and interesting job. Not for me personally, but in my own brand of oddity, for a long time I wanted to work in funeral services. The thought of preparing bodies, performing autopsies and doing so as a bridge between the bereaved and the deceased captivated me. Part human psychology, part fascination with the science of death, and the basic idea of helping people (dead or alive) through such major transitions had huge appeal. Point being, people have all sorts of motivations for the work they'd like to do and sex workers aren't that different from lawyers or construction workers or farmers or whatever else in those respects.
posted by iamkimiam at 5:52 AM on May 14, 2013 [7 favorites]
"I quit reading at: My mother rolled up her sleeves, strapped on her stilettos, and ignored the statistic."
Ugh. That line made me cringe as well. So many stereotypes packed into one sentence. As if we all strapped on the symbols of hard work in sexy style we too can be heroes for those who simply can't seem to ignore their embodied realities.
posted by iamkimiam at 5:57 AM on May 14, 2013 [5 favorites]
Ugh. That line made me cringe as well. So many stereotypes packed into one sentence. As if we all strapped on the symbols of hard work in sexy style we too can be heroes for those who simply can't seem to ignore their embodied realities.
posted by iamkimiam at 5:57 AM on May 14, 2013 [5 favorites]
The part that made me uncomfortable is his school friend asking about it "shortly after Danny's funeral." Who does that?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:46 AM on May 14 [+] [!]
I'm not sure I would ask, but in the case of someone I knew who passed away as a young teen, I remember having a few good cries over how she had in all likelihood never experienced a loving sexual relationship with another person. That's an important part of adult life.
posted by fiercecupcake at 5:59 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:46 AM on May 14 [+] [!]
I'm not sure I would ask, but in the case of someone I knew who passed away as a young teen, I remember having a few good cries over how she had in all likelihood never experienced a loving sexual relationship with another person. That's an important part of adult life.
posted by fiercecupcake at 5:59 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sex is an important part of life, people with major disabilities can and do want sex. The way modern Western culture is set up, sex may never be part of the life of a person with a major disability.
Even fairly minor disabilities can make sex one of those experiences you just don't have.
Worse, the experience of sex for someone with a disability could be one of abuse instead of love.
I think it is an important part of life.
We can say or think what we like about HOW this woman addressed her son's situation, but kudos to her for considering it and doing something for him.
He really wasn't in a position to do it for himself.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:15 AM on May 14, 2013 [9 favorites]
Even fairly minor disabilities can make sex one of those experiences you just don't have.
Worse, the experience of sex for someone with a disability could be one of abuse instead of love.
I think it is an important part of life.
We can say or think what we like about HOW this woman addressed her son's situation, but kudos to her for considering it and doing something for him.
He really wasn't in a position to do it for himself.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:15 AM on May 14, 2013 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure I would ask, but in the case of someone I knew who passed away as a young teen, I remember having a few good cries over how she had in all likelihood never experienced a loving sexual relationship with another person. That's an important part of adult life.
Sure, I might wonder about it for a moment, in the same way I'd wonder what a celebrity's bathroom looks like. But I would never dream of actually asking his family.How could it possibly be considered anywhere remotely my business?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:18 AM on May 14, 2013
Sure, I might wonder about it for a moment, in the same way I'd wonder what a celebrity's bathroom looks like. But I would never dream of actually asking his family.How could it possibly be considered anywhere remotely my business?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:18 AM on May 14, 2013
billiebee: "I think I'd like to live in a world where hiring sex workers to teach young adults about sex is a normal thing.
I think I'd like to live in a world where no one had to be a sex worker."
I think I'd like to live in a world where we have instant bliss at the snap of a finger.
posted by symbioid at 6:20 AM on May 14, 2013
I think I'd like to live in a world where no one had to be a sex worker."
I think I'd like to live in a world where we have instant bliss at the snap of a finger.
posted by symbioid at 6:20 AM on May 14, 2013
That the mother facilitated this is fine I guess, no harm no foul, but that she even was brought to think this way in the first place is problematic.
That's your takeaway from this? You don't even object to it, but since you have a notional ideological objection, that's the relevant issue?
posted by spaltavian at 6:24 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's your takeaway from this? You don't even object to it, but since you have a notional ideological objection, that's the relevant issue?
posted by spaltavian at 6:24 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
"I think I'd like to live in a world where no one had to be a sex worker."
What about those who want to be sex workers?
I meant 'had to be' in terms of genuine freedom of choice, not coercion as such. I'd be interested to know what percentage of sex workers do it out of a love of sex, but I'm not at all denying that the case exists. If we're talking about ideal worlds then actually, yes, I'd prefer it if the option to pay to objectify someone else wasn't on the table, but that's my own opinion, and no judgement on anyone who chooses to do it in the real world, for any reason.
But choice on both sides is important, which is why the disturbing part of the article for me wasn't what the mother did, but rather:
My mother didn’t bother asking Danny for his permission before engaging Monique’s services.
Danny was embarrassed, but finally relented. “Alright, alright already!”
posted by billiebee at 6:28 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
What about those who want to be sex workers?
I meant 'had to be' in terms of genuine freedom of choice, not coercion as such. I'd be interested to know what percentage of sex workers do it out of a love of sex, but I'm not at all denying that the case exists. If we're talking about ideal worlds then actually, yes, I'd prefer it if the option to pay to objectify someone else wasn't on the table, but that's my own opinion, and no judgement on anyone who chooses to do it in the real world, for any reason.
But choice on both sides is important, which is why the disturbing part of the article for me wasn't what the mother did, but rather:
My mother didn’t bother asking Danny for his permission before engaging Monique’s services.
Danny was embarrassed, but finally relented. “Alright, alright already!”
posted by billiebee at 6:28 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
I thought the article was awesome. It's written from the perspective of a child who really admires the work and effort his mother put into raising a sibling with a debilitating illness. Sex may not be "necessary" but it certainly is a normal experience for nearly everyone on the planet barring serious disability. I didn't think she was trying to "make him into a man" but helping him go through an aspect of human experience that he might likely not have been to manage on his own.
She also didn't force him since he agreed to Monique's visit. Having your mother arrange your first sexual encounter would be embarrassing to most adults but that doesn't mean it wasn't a good idea. He could have refused. He could have chosen not to have sex with her after she arrived but he chose to do it with her.
And Monique sounded kind of awesome.
posted by shoesietart at 7:06 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
She also didn't force him since he agreed to Monique's visit. Having your mother arrange your first sexual encounter would be embarrassing to most adults but that doesn't mean it wasn't a good idea. He could have refused. He could have chosen not to have sex with her after she arrived but he chose to do it with her.
And Monique sounded kind of awesome.
posted by shoesietart at 7:06 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
The fact that Danny didn't will it seems like a pretty big thing to gloss over. Danny's opinion on the subject is pretty much absent (for reasons that are understandable) from the piece, but I don't think we can take it as a given that he was okay with what was happening. The article isn't about a disabled person experiencing something they wanted to experience in the way that was accessible to them, it was about a mother patting herself on the back for giving her child an experience that she thought he wanted, with the disabled person's being more or less silent on the subject. It's possible that this was something sweet, it's also possible that this was really skeevy and gross; without hearing from Danny (which is obviously impossible), there's no way to know.Well the article skips any real discussion of this fact, so it's hard to come to a conclusion. The article only says that the mother engaged the prostitute without asking Danny, and that when told of the plan he was, "embarrassed, but finally relented." Maybe he had thought of the idea himself but never told his mother? Maybe he was ashamed that his mother had done such a thing for him but really wanted it? How many men want their mother all up in their sex life anyway, disabled or no? Maybe the writer knows more about Danny's real feelings but won't say; after all that's not the point of her story. Either way, the lack of demonstrated will on Danny's part is worrisome for his sake, but the aspect of hiring prostitutes for disabled folk is not shocking.
posted by Jehan at 7:11 AM on May 14, 2013
By mid-afternoon, my mother was overcome by curiosity. She dialed my brother’s apartment. “So how was it?”
Danny was circumspect. “Everything was fine.”
The call girl provided a more detailed report when she rang my mother a few days later. Danny hadn’t achieved an orgasm.
“That put the question of reproduction to rest,” says my mother. “But he did experience intercourse.”
This...crosses some kind of line, I think. Firstly, because it's kind of nonsensical (just because he didn't orgasm the first time he had sex with a prostitute doesn't mean he would never be able to reproduce). But mostly because it seems so disrespectful towards this 25-year-old man. His mother getting a full report from the prostitute afterwards? Really?
posted by Salamander at 7:23 AM on May 14, 2013 [12 favorites]
Danny was circumspect. “Everything was fine.”
The call girl provided a more detailed report when she rang my mother a few days later. Danny hadn’t achieved an orgasm.
“That put the question of reproduction to rest,” says my mother. “But he did experience intercourse.”
This...crosses some kind of line, I think. Firstly, because it's kind of nonsensical (just because he didn't orgasm the first time he had sex with a prostitute doesn't mean he would never be able to reproduce). But mostly because it seems so disrespectful towards this 25-year-old man. His mother getting a full report from the prostitute afterwards? Really?
posted by Salamander at 7:23 AM on May 14, 2013 [12 favorites]
I approve. Listen, I am not saying that I think women being prostitutes is a good thing. It isn't
I am saying that I think it's wonderful that a mother in the late 80's, in America could be open-minded enough to have this idea, let alone go through with it. She could have been all about God, hateful, vengeful God, and how she and her son is the victim. From what I read, she didn't. Wasn't. Couldn't.
At about the same time I had a friend in school, went with me from Kindergarten to Graduation, and her brother had familial dysautonomia. He was two years older than me, but over time ended up 3 years behind me in school. He wasn't stupid, didn't have a mental illness, but his parents, family, teachers, & facility treated him as such, and because of that-so did all the other students...because hey that's the norm that was presented. He was kept aside, coddled, treated with rubber soft loving gloves his entire life...would NEVER have had his own apartment, and in my opinion lost out on a lot of life's joys and pains.
Would his mother ever do this? God Almighty No! Should she have? I don't know. Would I? I am not a parent, so I can't answer that, but I do know that the kid I am thinking of never had a chance to be anything more than the limitations that were bestowed on him. He died some 3 years after H.S., and almost certainly viewed this world, as something beyond the curio glass that he was displayed in. I applaud this mother. If for no other reason than allowing her son's life to be bigger than hers.
posted by QueerAngel28 at 7:35 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I am saying that I think it's wonderful that a mother in the late 80's, in America could be open-minded enough to have this idea, let alone go through with it. She could have been all about God, hateful, vengeful God, and how she and her son is the victim. From what I read, she didn't. Wasn't. Couldn't.
At about the same time I had a friend in school, went with me from Kindergarten to Graduation, and her brother had familial dysautonomia. He was two years older than me, but over time ended up 3 years behind me in school. He wasn't stupid, didn't have a mental illness, but his parents, family, teachers, & facility treated him as such, and because of that-so did all the other students...because hey that's the norm that was presented. He was kept aside, coddled, treated with rubber soft loving gloves his entire life...would NEVER have had his own apartment, and in my opinion lost out on a lot of life's joys and pains.
Would his mother ever do this? God Almighty No! Should she have? I don't know. Would I? I am not a parent, so I can't answer that, but I do know that the kid I am thinking of never had a chance to be anything more than the limitations that were bestowed on him. He died some 3 years after H.S., and almost certainly viewed this world, as something beyond the curio glass that he was displayed in. I applaud this mother. If for no other reason than allowing her son's life to be bigger than hers.
posted by QueerAngel28 at 7:35 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
He really wasn't in a position to do it for himself.
He wasn't in a position to hire a sex worker for himself, if he wanted to? He was living independently and capable of attending college.
I know we are getting this story from someone who was not directly involved, and it probably didn't go down exactly as described, but the way it is framed here is very troubling to me. Danny was physically disabled. This doesn't mean that he lacks sexual agency and the need for control over his sexual life and the privacy (or lack thereof).
posted by muddgirl at 8:00 AM on May 14, 2013 [12 favorites]
He wasn't in a position to hire a sex worker for himself, if he wanted to? He was living independently and capable of attending college.
I know we are getting this story from someone who was not directly involved, and it probably didn't go down exactly as described, but the way it is framed here is very troubling to me. Danny was physically disabled. This doesn't mean that he lacks sexual agency and the need for control over his sexual life and the privacy (or lack thereof).
posted by muddgirl at 8:00 AM on May 14, 2013 [12 favorites]
I too am disturbed that this mother of a disabled child did not behave just so in accordance with progressive cultural norms. Fortunately this 2,000 word article provides all of the information needed to render judgment.
posted by brain_drain at 8:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by brain_drain at 8:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]
muddgirl: "Danny was physically disabled. This doesn't mean that he lacks sexual agency and the need for control over his sexual life and the privacy (or lack thereof)."
This also doesn't mean that he needs people outside his situation to judge his family harshly for making difficult decisions about intimacy that most people never contemplate, much less understand all the ethical implications. So many people have assumed the worst motives and thinking to the mother without knowing much at all about her, and we all assume we'll do and think all the right things all the time, when really we all just do the best we can. It strikes me as unnecessary to understanding the story and why it was written, especially as it happened over 20 years ago.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:28 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
This also doesn't mean that he needs people outside his situation to judge his family harshly for making difficult decisions about intimacy that most people never contemplate, much less understand all the ethical implications. So many people have assumed the worst motives and thinking to the mother without knowing much at all about her, and we all assume we'll do and think all the right things all the time, when really we all just do the best we can. It strikes me as unnecessary to understanding the story and why it was written, especially as it happened over 20 years ago.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:28 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
This also doesn't mean that he needs people outside his situation to judge his family harshly for making difficult decisions about intimacy that most people never contemplate, much less understand all the ethical implications.
That doesn't mean we should give a pass to the issue of the ethical implications, though. To me, hiring a prostitute for someone who hasn't expressed an interest in one and then talking them into accepting those services raises some pretty serious issues about consent, especially when the person being talked into accepting the sexual services is the disabled child of the person hiring the prostitute with the power differential that that entails. If nothing else, this certainly isn't the enthusiastic consent we're always talking about the importance of in other contexts.
Let's not assume that she had bad motives, but let's also not assume that good motives makes her actions okay. Honestly, given the fact that the disabled person's voice has to be silent in this story, I'm not even sure we should be telling it, but if we're going to tell let's at least acknowledge that his opinion is absent and it might not be what his mother assumed it to be.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:38 AM on May 14, 2013 [7 favorites]
That doesn't mean we should give a pass to the issue of the ethical implications, though. To me, hiring a prostitute for someone who hasn't expressed an interest in one and then talking them into accepting those services raises some pretty serious issues about consent, especially when the person being talked into accepting the sexual services is the disabled child of the person hiring the prostitute with the power differential that that entails. If nothing else, this certainly isn't the enthusiastic consent we're always talking about the importance of in other contexts.
Let's not assume that she had bad motives, but let's also not assume that good motives makes her actions okay. Honestly, given the fact that the disabled person's voice has to be silent in this story, I'm not even sure we should be telling it, but if we're going to tell let's at least acknowledge that his opinion is absent and it might not be what his mother assumed it to be.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:38 AM on May 14, 2013 [7 favorites]
For the record, I think the mother's (and brother's) intentions were in the right place. I also think that the way that this was presented to us reveals some potentially deeply problematic aspects of what happened as well as how that is shared publicly. There are several points where the things said in the story give the impression (to me) that he's being treated dismissively, without agency and essentially like the object of a joke. I don't find it funny. I want to feel happy for Danny and the experience his mother wanted for him but the unanswered questions and the framing of this story shared leave me feeling concerned and sad.
posted by iamkimiam at 8:38 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by iamkimiam at 8:38 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
My heart is not warmed, nor are my pearls clutched.
Complicated situation prompts complicated actions with complicated results. Not on the news at 11, because it can't be summed up in a 12 second soundbite.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:51 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Complicated situation prompts complicated actions with complicated results. Not on the news at 11, because it can't be summed up in a 12 second soundbite.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:51 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
The article was written by a sibling, and there may be facts or discussions of which she is unaware. I suspect that, on the whole, Danny was very lucky to have such an energetic Mom focused on his well-being. Certainly he was lucky to have a family who could afford to take care of him really well. I have a disabled sibling; it's not easy for people with moderate intellectual and physical disabilities to have a good life.
posted by theora55 at 8:57 AM on May 14, 2013
posted by theora55 at 8:57 AM on May 14, 2013
As others have said, the most disturbing part of this story isn't the events that happened so much as the whole thing seemed orchestrated by the mother for the purpose of making herself feel better about her son's life experience. Danny didn't seem particularly bothered one way or the other, and I can only imagine that he spent his life so used to doing anything his mother asked, that he just sort of agreed because that's what she wanted. That's not a very good reason to have sex with someone.
Also I found the part about "oh, you know who would clearly know a thing or two about prostitutes? A widowed father!" sort of personally insulting but maybe I'm reading it wrong.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 9:23 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Also I found the part about "oh, you know who would clearly know a thing or two about prostitutes? A widowed father!" sort of personally insulting but maybe I'm reading it wrong.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 9:23 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Jakey: Australian comic Jim Jeffries has an altogether more entertaining tale of a similar incident. YT NSFW (duh)
I only meant to check out the start because it's 26 minutes long - and suddenly I'm 14 minutes in (listening at home, obviously). The comic - and the story - are brilliant. Crude as anything - but superb.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
I only meant to check out the start because it's 26 minutes long - and suddenly I'm 14 minutes in (listening at home, obviously). The comic - and the story - are brilliant. Crude as anything - but superb.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
So does anyone know of any articles about a disabled woman hiring a sex worker? Or having a sex worker hired for her?
It seems like every time I see an article like this in the press, it has the same basic components. Disabled man and sex worker woman. And every time I read one of those article or see one of the documentaries, I feel like the subtext is always the same--a man is entitled to sex with a woman, regardless of circumstances.
I remember years and years ago, back when I frequented Digg.com, someone had posted an article about a man from the U.K. with Down's Syndrome. I don't recall the specifics, but somehow he'd gotten some extra money, and he and a non-disabled friend decided to travel to Las Vegas in the hopes that he would meet a woman willing to have sex with him. IIRC, he didn't want to pay for sex, but he did want to meet a woman who might not have any hang-ups about having sex with him. He spent part of the article trying to ingratiate himself to showgirls and strippers, as I recall; women that he perceived as...let's say more "open-minded".
The tone of that article was just...I dunno how to describe it, but taking it for granted that this was a right and just goal for him to have. Which in and of itself is not bad, but I remember in the comments section most of the males were posting things like "C'mon, girls! Someone give him a shot!" And all I could think was, I wonder how they'd react if the person was a woman with Down's Syndrome looking in Vegas for a man to have sex with, and chatting up Chippendale dancers? Wouldn't it be a right and just goal for her, too? I'm not certain that perspective can be assumed from the (admittedly few) articles I've read on this topic.
I think that's what bothers me about these sorts of articles. On the one hand, I have no problem with the idea of disabled people looking for sex (and having sex) with consensual partners. But on the other hand, there's always this undercurrent of He's disabled, yeah, that doesn't make him desirable to a lot of women, but he's a man, you know, with needs and something has to be done to help him out, so we have to find a sex worker for him. And the women--the hookers with hearts of gold!--who decide to take the disabled man on as a client are always so praised for doing what is clearly the right thing. Because, of course, this disabled man is just as entitled to sex with a woman as other men. There's no sense that disabled women, or disabled people who are gay, might want sex, too.
There's just... there's this sense of entitlement in these articles that I can't shake, sometimes from the writers, sometimes from the disabled men portrayed, sometimes from the people in their lives. And it's such a familiar send of entitlement. It's the same sense of entitlement that contributes to the continued exploitation of women for sex (and yes, I know that a lot of MeFites likes to believe that all sex workers choose that job of their own free will, and there's no such thing as human trafficking or pimps, but don't agree that that assessment lines up with reality).
I hate seeing that sort of entitlement in non-disabled men, and I don't think being disabled or acquiring a disability gives you a free pass to it.
Within the context of the article, I think it's great that the mother wanted to help her son and was open-minded about his sexuality. But pulling back, I see in her that sense of entitlement that I see in similar stories about disabled men and sex workers--that her son deserved to have sex, even if no one chose to approach him for it, even if he didn't particularly want it, and even if a woman working in an industry known for its exploitation of women was hired for him to get it. And even if you're willing to ignore the exploitation and accept sex work, there's never a sense in these articles that disabled women or gays also deserve sex.
I'm fumbling with my words here, and I don't know that I'm being clear. I'm just tired of the entitlement. I'm sorry, but no one, no one "deserves" sex. Disabled men should have a shot at having consensual sex as anyone else, but that they also take the same risk as anyone else in being turned down by prospective consensual partners. And while it may not be fair that disabled men have a higher liklihood of being rejected as sexual partners due to their disability, maybe the reality is that sometimes those are the cards you're dealt. You're stuck playing the MMO of The Real World at a higher setting, so you're going to have to play harder and smarter to unlock that achievement. Exploiting women for sexual gratification or status as a "real man" is a cheat code that should be banned from the game.
posted by magstheaxe at 9:30 AM on May 14, 2013 [32 favorites]
It seems like every time I see an article like this in the press, it has the same basic components. Disabled man and sex worker woman. And every time I read one of those article or see one of the documentaries, I feel like the subtext is always the same--a man is entitled to sex with a woman, regardless of circumstances.
I remember years and years ago, back when I frequented Digg.com, someone had posted an article about a man from the U.K. with Down's Syndrome. I don't recall the specifics, but somehow he'd gotten some extra money, and he and a non-disabled friend decided to travel to Las Vegas in the hopes that he would meet a woman willing to have sex with him. IIRC, he didn't want to pay for sex, but he did want to meet a woman who might not have any hang-ups about having sex with him. He spent part of the article trying to ingratiate himself to showgirls and strippers, as I recall; women that he perceived as...let's say more "open-minded".
The tone of that article was just...I dunno how to describe it, but taking it for granted that this was a right and just goal for him to have. Which in and of itself is not bad, but I remember in the comments section most of the males were posting things like "C'mon, girls! Someone give him a shot!" And all I could think was, I wonder how they'd react if the person was a woman with Down's Syndrome looking in Vegas for a man to have sex with, and chatting up Chippendale dancers? Wouldn't it be a right and just goal for her, too? I'm not certain that perspective can be assumed from the (admittedly few) articles I've read on this topic.
I think that's what bothers me about these sorts of articles. On the one hand, I have no problem with the idea of disabled people looking for sex (and having sex) with consensual partners. But on the other hand, there's always this undercurrent of He's disabled, yeah, that doesn't make him desirable to a lot of women, but he's a man, you know, with needs and something has to be done to help him out, so we have to find a sex worker for him. And the women--the hookers with hearts of gold!--who decide to take the disabled man on as a client are always so praised for doing what is clearly the right thing. Because, of course, this disabled man is just as entitled to sex with a woman as other men. There's no sense that disabled women, or disabled people who are gay, might want sex, too.
There's just... there's this sense of entitlement in these articles that I can't shake, sometimes from the writers, sometimes from the disabled men portrayed, sometimes from the people in their lives. And it's such a familiar send of entitlement. It's the same sense of entitlement that contributes to the continued exploitation of women for sex (and yes, I know that a lot of MeFites likes to believe that all sex workers choose that job of their own free will, and there's no such thing as human trafficking or pimps, but don't agree that that assessment lines up with reality).
I hate seeing that sort of entitlement in non-disabled men, and I don't think being disabled or acquiring a disability gives you a free pass to it.
Within the context of the article, I think it's great that the mother wanted to help her son and was open-minded about his sexuality. But pulling back, I see in her that sense of entitlement that I see in similar stories about disabled men and sex workers--that her son deserved to have sex, even if no one chose to approach him for it, even if he didn't particularly want it, and even if a woman working in an industry known for its exploitation of women was hired for him to get it. And even if you're willing to ignore the exploitation and accept sex work, there's never a sense in these articles that disabled women or gays also deserve sex.
I'm fumbling with my words here, and I don't know that I'm being clear. I'm just tired of the entitlement. I'm sorry, but no one, no one "deserves" sex. Disabled men should have a shot at having consensual sex as anyone else, but that they also take the same risk as anyone else in being turned down by prospective consensual partners. And while it may not be fair that disabled men have a higher liklihood of being rejected as sexual partners due to their disability, maybe the reality is that sometimes those are the cards you're dealt. You're stuck playing the MMO of The Real World at a higher setting, so you're going to have to play harder and smarter to unlock that achievement. Exploiting women for sexual gratification or status as a "real man" is a cheat code that should be banned from the game.
posted by magstheaxe at 9:30 AM on May 14, 2013 [32 favorites]
> there's never a sense in these articles that disabled women or gays also deserve sex.
Actually, we don't even know that Danny was straight; all we know is that his mother presumed he was, along with presuming so many other things.
posted by Westringia F. at 9:48 AM on May 14, 2013
Actually, we don't even know that Danny was straight; all we know is that his mother presumed he was, along with presuming so many other things.
posted by Westringia F. at 9:48 AM on May 14, 2013
Having your mother hire a prostitute for you is not normal...
posted by koavf at 9:53 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by koavf at 9:53 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
No it isn't. But neither is having familial dysautonomia.
magstheaxe: I don't see the entitlement here. Hell, people are (perhaps rightfully) criticizing the fact that Danny didn't even seem all that enthused so it's weird his mom was the driving force. Danny clearly didn't feel entitled... it's not even clear he wanted it to happen.
posted by Justinian at 10:56 AM on May 14, 2013
magstheaxe: I don't see the entitlement here. Hell, people are (perhaps rightfully) criticizing the fact that Danny didn't even seem all that enthused so it's weird his mom was the driving force. Danny clearly didn't feel entitled... it's not even clear he wanted it to happen.
posted by Justinian at 10:56 AM on May 14, 2013
Oh, and "exploiting women" is assuming facts not in evidence. It's an ideological position, not a factual one.
posted by Justinian at 10:57 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:57 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
This...crosses some kind of line, I think. Firstly, because it's kind of nonsensical (just because he didn't orgasm the first time he had sex with a prostitute doesn't mean he would never be able to reproduce). But mostly because it seems so disrespectful towards this 25-year-old man. His mother getting a full report from the prostitute afterwards? Really?
Between this, and the fact that the encounter was not initiated by Danny himself - indeed, it seemed from the article that he was bullied into it - the entire narrative just bothers the hell out of me.
Did Mom have good intentions? Probably, but then there's that whole "road to Hell" thing. It just strikes me as something Mom engineered to make herself feel better.
posted by MissySedai at 11:18 AM on May 14, 2013 [5 favorites]
Between this, and the fact that the encounter was not initiated by Danny himself - indeed, it seemed from the article that he was bullied into it - the entire narrative just bothers the hell out of me.
Did Mom have good intentions? Probably, but then there's that whole "road to Hell" thing. It just strikes me as something Mom engineered to make herself feel better.
posted by MissySedai at 11:18 AM on May 14, 2013 [5 favorites]
Oh, to make myself clear, I agree this is a really problematic story. I just think it's problematic because of the weird consent issues and Danny not initiating things. I think you are correct, MissySedai, this reads as though it's about the Mom feeling better, not about something Danny wanted.
It's icky.
posted by Justinian at 11:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [5 favorites]
It's icky.
posted by Justinian at 11:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [5 favorites]
this reads as though it's about the Mom feeling better, not about something Danny wanted.
I feel a bit like the comments in this thread. Many of which strike me as being about the *commenter* feeling better, and not really about Danny, his mom or the sex worker at all.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:05 PM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]
I feel a bit like the comments in this thread. Many of which strike me as being about the *commenter* feeling better, and not really about Danny, his mom or the sex worker at all.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:05 PM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]
Given that most data suggests disabled women are at an increased risk of sexual assault, it's a different conversation. Rape culture what?
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:10 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:10 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
“That put the question of reproduction to rest,” says my mother. “But he did experience intercourse.”
This makes it sound as if hiring a woman for him to have sex with was only the first step in a program to have him father a child-- a program that had to be abandoned when it became clear he might not be able to ejaculate.
This mom makes the average tiger mom look like a kitten that hasn't opened its eyes yet.
posted by jamjam at 12:19 PM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
This makes it sound as if hiring a woman for him to have sex with was only the first step in a program to have him father a child-- a program that had to be abandoned when it became clear he might not be able to ejaculate.
This mom makes the average tiger mom look like a kitten that hasn't opened its eyes yet.
posted by jamjam at 12:19 PM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Creepy lady is creepy.
posted by gertzedek at 12:19 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by gertzedek at 12:19 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
And even the idea that the mother is doing it with path-to-Hell good intentions is complicated, because she seems far more focused on whether Danny would give her grandkids than on his experience. I got a very unpleasant "breeding" vine from the whole thing.
FWIW, I didn't take magstheaxe's comment as implying that MeFites in this thread were exhibiting a sense of entitlement. Rather, I thought the point was that whenever we see stories like this -- and we see them periodically -- they always seem to be focused on a man's desire (or in this case, presumed desire) for sex with a woman, often irrespective of emotional intimacy. That skew is part and parcel of a larger societal tendency to regard the hetero male sex drive as a normal & significant need -- and hence worthy/entitling of fulfillment -- while regarding all others as either unimportant or deviant. And not only is this a problematic view of women and queer people, it's also kinda sexist to straight men insofar as it downplays their need for emotional intimacy, not just sex.
... which I think is another part of why this story felt uncomfortably breedery to me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with sex sans intimacy (believe me! (MeMail me, fellas)), but the way the mother was protrayed I got a creepy impression that she was reducing the entire experience of human bonding & intimacy to its most mechanical elements: have sex, produce babies.
posted by Westringia F. at 12:20 PM on May 14, 2013 [9 favorites]
FWIW, I didn't take magstheaxe's comment as implying that MeFites in this thread were exhibiting a sense of entitlement. Rather, I thought the point was that whenever we see stories like this -- and we see them periodically -- they always seem to be focused on a man's desire (or in this case, presumed desire) for sex with a woman, often irrespective of emotional intimacy. That skew is part and parcel of a larger societal tendency to regard the hetero male sex drive as a normal & significant need -- and hence worthy/entitling of fulfillment -- while regarding all others as either unimportant or deviant. And not only is this a problematic view of women and queer people, it's also kinda sexist to straight men insofar as it downplays their need for emotional intimacy, not just sex.
... which I think is another part of why this story felt uncomfortably breedery to me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with sex sans intimacy (believe me! (MeMail me, fellas)), but the way the mother was protrayed I got a creepy impression that she was reducing the entire experience of human bonding & intimacy to its most mechanical elements: have sex, produce babies.
posted by Westringia F. at 12:20 PM on May 14, 2013 [9 favorites]
I land somewhere between bardic and those with a completely opposite take on this. I agree about the cultural stuff to some degree, if in fact the mom felt compelled to ensure her son lost his virginity because in some way she just viewed sex as a mandatory requirement for leading a full life--but on the other hand, sex is a pretty basic, often wonderful kind of life experience (though it can also occasionally be a grotesque one, depending on the particulars and context of the experience) and maybe every person should have the experience at least once... On the other hand, virginity is nothing to be ashamed of. So I've got no coherent read on this.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:28 PM on May 14, 2013
posted by saulgoodman at 12:28 PM on May 14, 2013
The fact that Danny didn't will it seems like a pretty big thing to gloss over.
This. There's a whole boatload of ethical implications here.
The sex--not my business. Just don't do it in the road and spook the horse. The origination of the experience and choice doesn't appear to have been Danny's, as it should have been.
Magstheaxe, has an excellent point. No one deserves sex. Everyone deserves a shot at it, but what happens is between those involved in the act.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:42 PM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
This. There's a whole boatload of ethical implications here.
The sex--not my business. Just don't do it in the road and spook the horse. The origination of the experience and choice doesn't appear to have been Danny's, as it should have been.
Magstheaxe, has an excellent point. No one deserves sex. Everyone deserves a shot at it, but what happens is between those involved in the act.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:42 PM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
magstheaxe: I don't see the entitlement here. Hell, people are (perhaps rightfully) criticizing the fact that Danny didn't even seem all that enthused so it's weird his mom was the driving force. Danny clearly didn't feel entitled... it's not even clear he wanted it to happen.
posted by Justinian at 1:56 PM on May 14
I'm talking about the sense of entitlement in the article. And I'm looking at this sort of topic as a collective whole. That is, whenever an article comes up about a disabled person seeking sex from a sex worker, it's always the same tale--disabled men, sex working women--and it always presumes that doing so is okay. You never hear about the disabled woman and the gigolo-with-a-heart-of-gold. And you never, ever hear why the sex worker took on that assignment (every once in a while you'll hear why a sex therapist takes on such a job, but I consider them distinct from sex workers due to their training).
FWIW, I didn't take magstheaxe's comment as implying that MeFites in this thread were exhibiting a sense of entitlement. Rather, I thought the point was that whenever we see stories like this -- and we see them periodically -- they always seem to be focused on a man's desire (or in this case, presumed desire) for sex with a woman, often irrespective of emotional intimacy. That skew is part and parcel of a larger societal tendency to regard the hetero male sex drive as a normal & significant need -- and hence worthy/entitling of fulfillment -- while regarding all others as either unimportant or deviant.
posted by Westringia F. at 3:20 PM on May 14
That's part what I was trying to communicate, thank you, Westringia. But I was also trying to communicate that other very real concerns, such as the exploitation of women, also fall very easily to the wayside when talking about a straight man getting sex.
As I said above, we have absolutely no evidence one way or the other that this particular sex work in this article was exploited by anyone. I do not dispute this in the slightest.
But what strikes me as depressing is that the topic is never even considered. That at no point did anyone ask "is this guy's sexuality more important than this woman who works in a business that is notorious for exploiting women?" Because the answer is very obviously, "Yes, it is" ("Even the lawman could see this was the right thing to do"). It's as if everyone involved was saying "Who gives a shit about a whore? The truly important thing is that this guy gets to have sex with a woman!"
Oh, and "exploiting women" is assuming facts not in evidence. It's an ideological position, not a factual one.
posted by Justinian at 1:57 PM on May 14
If you mean, in this particular article? Yes, I agree with you there. There's not enough evidence to indicate that the sex worker in the article is or is not exploited during this particular assignment.
If you mean, in general? I disagree, and I believe the growing, soul-crushing evidence coming out of the human trafficking networks across the globe supports my position.
Unless you've got evidence to the contrary? Which make me think: has anyone ever conducted a study comparing the number of sex workers who voluntarily enter the business, and the ones who are coerced through direct means? Or indirect means, like socio-economic status and what-not?
posted by magstheaxe at 1:00 PM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:56 PM on May 14
I'm talking about the sense of entitlement in the article. And I'm looking at this sort of topic as a collective whole. That is, whenever an article comes up about a disabled person seeking sex from a sex worker, it's always the same tale--disabled men, sex working women--and it always presumes that doing so is okay. You never hear about the disabled woman and the gigolo-with-a-heart-of-gold. And you never, ever hear why the sex worker took on that assignment (every once in a while you'll hear why a sex therapist takes on such a job, but I consider them distinct from sex workers due to their training).
FWIW, I didn't take magstheaxe's comment as implying that MeFites in this thread were exhibiting a sense of entitlement. Rather, I thought the point was that whenever we see stories like this -- and we see them periodically -- they always seem to be focused on a man's desire (or in this case, presumed desire) for sex with a woman, often irrespective of emotional intimacy. That skew is part and parcel of a larger societal tendency to regard the hetero male sex drive as a normal & significant need -- and hence worthy/entitling of fulfillment -- while regarding all others as either unimportant or deviant.
posted by Westringia F. at 3:20 PM on May 14
That's part what I was trying to communicate, thank you, Westringia. But I was also trying to communicate that other very real concerns, such as the exploitation of women, also fall very easily to the wayside when talking about a straight man getting sex.
As I said above, we have absolutely no evidence one way or the other that this particular sex work in this article was exploited by anyone. I do not dispute this in the slightest.
But what strikes me as depressing is that the topic is never even considered. That at no point did anyone ask "is this guy's sexuality more important than this woman who works in a business that is notorious for exploiting women?" Because the answer is very obviously, "Yes, it is" ("Even the lawman could see this was the right thing to do"). It's as if everyone involved was saying "Who gives a shit about a whore? The truly important thing is that this guy gets to have sex with a woman!"
Oh, and "exploiting women" is assuming facts not in evidence. It's an ideological position, not a factual one.
posted by Justinian at 1:57 PM on May 14
If you mean, in this particular article? Yes, I agree with you there. There's not enough evidence to indicate that the sex worker in the article is or is not exploited during this particular assignment.
If you mean, in general? I disagree, and I believe the growing, soul-crushing evidence coming out of the human trafficking networks across the globe supports my position.
Unless you've got evidence to the contrary? Which make me think: has anyone ever conducted a study comparing the number of sex workers who voluntarily enter the business, and the ones who are coerced through direct means? Or indirect means, like socio-economic status and what-not?
posted by magstheaxe at 1:00 PM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]
Man, imagine the story in which a father of a disabled daughter decided to hire a male prostitute because her sexuality was important, the mother thought it was a terrible idea but was browbeaten into not objecting, and everyone in the building found out about it.
posted by xiw at 1:12 PM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by xiw at 1:12 PM on May 14, 2013 [10 favorites]
Man, imagine the story in which a father of a disabled daughter decided to hire a male prostitute because her sexuality was important, the mother thought it was a terrible idea but was browbeaten into not objecting, and everyone in the building found out about it.
posted by xiw at 4:12 PM on May 14
Exactly. And imagine if the disabled daughter showed the same lack of enthusiam that Danny did, but the father went through with it anyway.
posted by magstheaxe at 2:03 PM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by xiw at 4:12 PM on May 14
Exactly. And imagine if the disabled daughter showed the same lack of enthusiam that Danny did, but the father went through with it anyway.
posted by magstheaxe at 2:03 PM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
Man, imagine the story in which a father of a disabled daughter decided to hire a male prostitute because her sexuality was important, the mother thought it was a terrible idea but was browbeaten into not objecting, and everyone in the building found out about it.
posted by xiw at 4:12 PM on May 14
Exactly. And imagine if the disabled daughter showed the same lack of enthusiam that Danny did, but the father went through with it anyway.
posted by magstheaxe at 2:03 PM on May 14 [+] [!]
Seriously. And then imagine if the daughter was actually a cat, but with a human face. And the prostitute was actually a clock of some sort, or a big bell. Pretty freaky when you think about it.
posted by bepe at 2:26 PM on May 14, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by xiw at 4:12 PM on May 14
Exactly. And imagine if the disabled daughter showed the same lack of enthusiam that Danny did, but the father went through with it anyway.
posted by magstheaxe at 2:03 PM on May 14 [+] [!]
Seriously. And then imagine if the daughter was actually a cat, but with a human face. And the prostitute was actually a clock of some sort, or a big bell. Pretty freaky when you think about it.
posted by bepe at 2:26 PM on May 14, 2013 [7 favorites]
Many of which strike me as being about the *commenter* feeling better, and not really about Danny, his mom or the sex worker at all.
Well sure, since Danny is dead, and I don't know the mom or the sex worker OR the sister who is the author, my words are just dust in the wind. I didn't realize I had to state that prior to every comment in a thread about a second-hand essay on something that happened over 20 years ago.
posted by muddgirl at 2:33 PM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Well sure, since Danny is dead, and I don't know the mom or the sex worker OR the sister who is the author, my words are just dust in the wind. I didn't realize I had to state that prior to every comment in a thread about a second-hand essay on something that happened over 20 years ago.
posted by muddgirl at 2:33 PM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Well, I don't know. I'd rather hear Danny's or the prostitute's side, but that's not what we get here.
I am a straight woman with a much more minor physical disability. My mother, father, and assorted relatives, from the time I was old enough to understand, made it clear to me that I was damaged goods and I'd be lucky to attract a man's attention, ever. Every single thing I ever did around physical interaction was taken as evidence that I was just not with the program. "You just don't like to be touched!" (Spoiler: they were wrong.) If only I wore makeup...if only I didn't have rips and tears on my prosthetic leg cover...if only I could somehow pass as non-disabled...then MAYBE...
Gotta say. At least Danny's mom takes it for granted that he's a regular guy with regular needs. Better those biases than many others!
As for consent. I hear it about consent. But since sex work is a profession like any other? The oldest one? And respectable? Can we perhaps assume that the prostitute was not a MONSTER who forced him? Let's assume that. We're missing the story behind closed doors here.
For everyone who judges the mom. Next time you see someone like Danny in a cafe or a bar. Good-looking and nice enough. If you're single a/o poly, consider hitting on him to see what happens. Like you might hit on anyone else. Never done that? Not for you? Then don't look down your nose at his mom.
posted by skbw at 3:17 PM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]
I am a straight woman with a much more minor physical disability. My mother, father, and assorted relatives, from the time I was old enough to understand, made it clear to me that I was damaged goods and I'd be lucky to attract a man's attention, ever. Every single thing I ever did around physical interaction was taken as evidence that I was just not with the program. "You just don't like to be touched!" (Spoiler: they were wrong.) If only I wore makeup...if only I didn't have rips and tears on my prosthetic leg cover...if only I could somehow pass as non-disabled...then MAYBE...
Gotta say. At least Danny's mom takes it for granted that he's a regular guy with regular needs. Better those biases than many others!
As for consent. I hear it about consent. But since sex work is a profession like any other? The oldest one? And respectable? Can we perhaps assume that the prostitute was not a MONSTER who forced him? Let's assume that. We're missing the story behind closed doors here.
For everyone who judges the mom. Next time you see someone like Danny in a cafe or a bar. Good-looking and nice enough. If you're single a/o poly, consider hitting on him to see what happens. Like you might hit on anyone else. Never done that? Not for you? Then don't look down your nose at his mom.
posted by skbw at 3:17 PM on May 14, 2013 [8 favorites]
Can we perhaps assume that the prostitute was not a MONSTER who forced him?
To be fair I don't see a single person assuming that at all. The debate seems to be around whether Danny wanted the sexual encounter or whether his mother wanted it for him. No one is saying anything negative about the person employed to make it happen.
posted by billiebee at 4:02 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
To be fair I don't see a single person assuming that at all. The debate seems to be around whether Danny wanted the sexual encounter or whether his mother wanted it for him. No one is saying anything negative about the person employed to make it happen.
posted by billiebee at 4:02 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
If I thought that Danny was raped, I would have said so. My issue can't be with whatever actually happened (because this story is so removed from reality, by time and by who is telling it). My issue is with the framing of Danny and of his mother by the author.
posted by muddgirl at 4:14 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 4:14 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Look, I'm not saying it isn't difficult for a severely disabled individual to find love, but when my son was small I had a friend who had her son three months before mine was born. Her son was born profoundly disabled by cerebral palsy. We are talking wheelchair bound, with quite a bit of difficulty with speech as well.
Years later I happened to find him on facebook. Not long after that, he mentioned he was looking for a wife, and not long after THAT he met someone. They are married now, and from what I can tell have a happy and fulfilling life.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:20 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Years later I happened to find him on facebook. Not long after that, he mentioned he was looking for a wife, and not long after THAT he met someone. They are married now, and from what I can tell have a happy and fulfilling life.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:20 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
For everyone who judges the mom. Next time you see someone like Danny in a cafe or a bar. Good-looking and nice enough. If you're single a/o poly, consider hitting on him to see what happens. Like you might hit on anyone else. Never done that? Not for you? Then don't look down your nose at his mom.
Hit on him out of pity, you mean? Out of a sense of obligation because he's got a disability and might elsewise never get laid?
That's gross and cruel. You shouldn't ever hit on someone you're not genuinely attracted to. That's called "leading him on", and that's a shitty thing to do to someone. Maybe even shittier than bullying someone into having a sexual encounter with a prostitute that was your idea and not his expressed desire.
posted by MissySedai at 4:35 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hit on him out of pity, you mean? Out of a sense of obligation because he's got a disability and might elsewise never get laid?
That's gross and cruel. You shouldn't ever hit on someone you're not genuinely attracted to. That's called "leading him on", and that's a shitty thing to do to someone. Maybe even shittier than bullying someone into having a sexual encounter with a prostitute that was your idea and not his expressed desire.
posted by MissySedai at 4:35 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hit on him out of pity, you mean? Out of a sense of obligation because he's got a disability and might elsewise never get laid?
I think she was more making a point that while a lot of people are talking about how the mom had no need to go out and find a sex worker for her son, that they may not be considering what a hard time the visibly disabled have attracting romantic attention. And that many of the people in the thread concerned about Danny having a normal love life would never consider dating someone who looked like Danny, and are not thinking realistically about his likely dating pool.
posted by corb at 4:50 PM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
I think she was more making a point that while a lot of people are talking about how the mom had no need to go out and find a sex worker for her son, that they may not be considering what a hard time the visibly disabled have attracting romantic attention. And that many of the people in the thread concerned about Danny having a normal love life would never consider dating someone who looked like Danny, and are not thinking realistically about his likely dating pool.
posted by corb at 4:50 PM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
Hit on him out of pity? Out of pity?
Hit on him because you might want to give it to him a few hours or weeks from now, same as any other guy in the bar.
That a disabled dude in a bar is automatically a candidate for pity says a hell of a lot.
What corb said! Favorited 100 times!
I'm not saying hit on a disabled guy BECAUSE he's disabled. I'm saying bring him into your personal pool of possible candidates, the same as any other [nerdy, 20something, insert feature here] guy. Put your money where your mouth is, and contemplate picking him up the same you'd contemplate any other sexual/romantic candidate.
posted by skbw at 5:31 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hit on him because you might want to give it to him a few hours or weeks from now, same as any other guy in the bar.
That a disabled dude in a bar is automatically a candidate for pity says a hell of a lot.
What corb said! Favorited 100 times!
I'm not saying hit on a disabled guy BECAUSE he's disabled. I'm saying bring him into your personal pool of possible candidates, the same as any other [nerdy, 20something, insert feature here] guy. Put your money where your mouth is, and contemplate picking him up the same you'd contemplate any other sexual/romantic candidate.
posted by skbw at 5:31 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
muddgirl: My issue is with the framing of Danny and of his mother by the author.
Agree for sure. What icks me out is not the mom doing this (though it sure is dubious). I am personally grossed out by the SIBLING taking it upon herself to tell a story that is really Danny and the prostitute's to tell, and secondarily the mom's.
posted by skbw at 5:33 PM on May 14, 2013
Agree for sure. What icks me out is not the mom doing this (though it sure is dubious). I am personally grossed out by the SIBLING taking it upon herself to tell a story that is really Danny and the prostitute's to tell, and secondarily the mom's.
posted by skbw at 5:33 PM on May 14, 2013
OK, fair enough re: nobody forcing him. Let me clarify what I meant re: consent.
Sure, this whole scenario removes a LOT of agency from Danny. That's a given. Overbearing mom is an understatement.
But it doesn't remove all agency from him. Guy in his 20s. Normal intelligence. For God only knows what reason has his mother talking hookers with him. But a person is not just going to lose his virginity to a prostitute to be polite. He made a decision somewhere in there to go along with it. That's agency. He's not a pawn. The boner mechanism, to borrow a phrase from another mefite, doesn't work that way.
I take exception, quite frankly, to the suggestion that a disabled guy in his 20s is somehow less able to turn down sex for money than is any other guy in his 20s.
For all we know, the two of them decided, "let's not and say we did."
posted by skbw at 5:44 PM on May 14, 2013
Sure, this whole scenario removes a LOT of agency from Danny. That's a given. Overbearing mom is an understatement.
But it doesn't remove all agency from him. Guy in his 20s. Normal intelligence. For God only knows what reason has his mother talking hookers with him. But a person is not just going to lose his virginity to a prostitute to be polite. He made a decision somewhere in there to go along with it. That's agency. He's not a pawn. The boner mechanism, to borrow a phrase from another mefite, doesn't work that way.
I take exception, quite frankly, to the suggestion that a disabled guy in his 20s is somehow less able to turn down sex for money than is any other guy in his 20s.
For all we know, the two of them decided, "let's not and say we did."
posted by skbw at 5:44 PM on May 14, 2013
> For all we know, the two of them decided, "let's not and say we did."
Well, yeah; that's exactly why so many people in this thread are saying that it seemed more like it was for his mother than for Danny. And I don't think anyone is suggesting that a disabled guy in his 20s is less able to turn down sex than any other guy; just that most guys (of any ability) don't have their mothers pressuring them into sexual experiences that they seem reluctant to have, and it's not entirely clear that she was doing him a favor by doing so....
Actually, I find the idea that the mother did the right/realistic thing because people with visible disabilities have a hard time attracting romantic attention rather depressing, as if to say "well, all bets for a real relationship are off, but you can at least pay for the sex part!" I have no clue what life is like for people with medical conditions like Danny's, but I would imagine (in my very limited way) that if my mom hooked me up with a hooker, I'd be hurt that that was the best she hoped for me, that even my own mother thought nobody would realistically find me attractive or lovable.
In the end, I'm not sure how different this is from those horrible, horrible messages you got, skbw, about being "damaged goods." To me it seems like exactly the same message, just in "men's" (ie hyper-sexualized) and "women's" (ie desexualized) flavors, along the lines of what magstheaxe said.
posted by Westringia F. at 6:58 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Well, yeah; that's exactly why so many people in this thread are saying that it seemed more like it was for his mother than for Danny. And I don't think anyone is suggesting that a disabled guy in his 20s is less able to turn down sex than any other guy; just that most guys (of any ability) don't have their mothers pressuring them into sexual experiences that they seem reluctant to have, and it's not entirely clear that she was doing him a favor by doing so....
Actually, I find the idea that the mother did the right/realistic thing because people with visible disabilities have a hard time attracting romantic attention rather depressing, as if to say "well, all bets for a real relationship are off, but you can at least pay for the sex part!" I have no clue what life is like for people with medical conditions like Danny's, but I would imagine (in my very limited way) that if my mom hooked me up with a hooker, I'd be hurt that that was the best she hoped for me, that even my own mother thought nobody would realistically find me attractive or lovable.
In the end, I'm not sure how different this is from those horrible, horrible messages you got, skbw, about being "damaged goods." To me it seems like exactly the same message, just in "men's" (ie hyper-sexualized) and "women's" (ie desexualized) flavors, along the lines of what magstheaxe said.
posted by Westringia F. at 6:58 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Or indirect means, like socio-economic status and what-not?
That's no more coercion than I was coerced into bagging groceries.
posted by Justinian at 7:39 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's no more coercion than I was coerced into bagging groceries.
posted by Justinian at 7:39 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
(Though if you're going full Marxist exploitation of labor and all that I might be with you, it's just a critique of all labor not of prostitution in particular.)
posted by Justinian at 7:42 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 7:42 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
"...but I would imagine (in my very limited way) that if my mom hooked me up with a hooker, I'd be hurt that that was the best she hoped for me, that even my own mother thought nobody would realistically find me attractive or lovable."
In general I would agree...the notion that a disabled man by definition has to pay for it is disturbing, shall we say. But it seems here, in this case, that Danny was ALSO very sick, not long for the world, at the time. Had he been, let's say, quadriplegic and in good general health, I would hope to be reading something in his words, more along the lines of "When I was 25, my mother offered to get me a hooker. Maybe I should have taken her up on it, but finally, after a lot of psychotherapy, I met someone at 35. Here's our story."
posted by skbw at 8:31 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
In general I would agree...the notion that a disabled man by definition has to pay for it is disturbing, shall we say. But it seems here, in this case, that Danny was ALSO very sick, not long for the world, at the time. Had he been, let's say, quadriplegic and in good general health, I would hope to be reading something in his words, more along the lines of "When I was 25, my mother offered to get me a hooker. Maybe I should have taken her up on it, but finally, after a lot of psychotherapy, I met someone at 35. Here's our story."
posted by skbw at 8:31 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
If only Danny had some way of telling the call girl he wasn't interested or keeping his door closed or something.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 9:35 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by The Hamms Bear at 9:35 PM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
There was a British movie starring Helena Bonham Carter and Kenneth Branagh about a disabled, terminally ill woman's desire to lose her virginity. Despite the subject matter it was a fairly light in tone.
Theory of Flight.
posted by Pantalaimon at 10:42 PM on May 14, 2013
Theory of Flight.
posted by Pantalaimon at 10:42 PM on May 14, 2013
Well, I seem to recall that guy on This American Life managed to have a few girlfriends--then again, he actually seemed interested in having them. So yeah, some disabled folks can find dates without their moms paying for them, at least.
I used to read his blog for awhile, but he was in between girlfriends and man, was he ever mopey in between girlfriends and I just kind of burned out on it.
I'm not against this idea in theory, but it does seem kind of weird that we don't know if her kid was even into the idea ahead of time, or just went along with it or what.
Yes, it is kind of creepy/weird/gender-unfair that a man can pay for sex whenever and thus he is entitled to get sex whenever he wants as long as someone has the cash, while meanwhile females don't have the same option...though I do remember reading some things on xoJane about the one for-ladies service I've ever heard of. But would those guys put out for pay for a disabled woman? Who the hell knows?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:57 PM on May 14, 2013
I used to read his blog for awhile, but he was in between girlfriends and man, was he ever mopey in between girlfriends and I just kind of burned out on it.
I'm not against this idea in theory, but it does seem kind of weird that we don't know if her kid was even into the idea ahead of time, or just went along with it or what.
Yes, it is kind of creepy/weird/gender-unfair that a man can pay for sex whenever and thus he is entitled to get sex whenever he wants as long as someone has the cash, while meanwhile females don't have the same option...though I do remember reading some things on xoJane about the one for-ladies service I've ever heard of. But would those guys put out for pay for a disabled woman? Who the hell knows?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:57 PM on May 14, 2013
I think what bugs me is the article itself, rather than the story. Who knows what actually happened, but the article reads like a movie of the week, where we all learn something from the heart warming disabled boy's struggle. The fact that its all about the mother rather than the man seems to underline it, that and the obvious fabrications.
He died the night after a profound conversation about death? The prostitute got into a lift with a judge, who then phoned the disabled kids mother and then agreed that hiring a prostitute was the right thing to do. The man asking after the funeral whether the deceased had ever had sex?
It just comes across as unconvincing, and weirdly unconcerned with his agency.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 1:01 AM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
He died the night after a profound conversation about death? The prostitute got into a lift with a judge, who then phoned the disabled kids mother and then agreed that hiring a prostitute was the right thing to do. The man asking after the funeral whether the deceased had ever had sex?
It just comes across as unconvincing, and weirdly unconcerned with his agency.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 1:01 AM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
while meanwhile females don't have the same option
What gives you that idea? Of course they do. Women tend not to avail themselves of the option at anything like the same frequency but the option is there.
posted by Justinian at 1:56 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
What gives you that idea? Of course they do. Women tend not to avail themselves of the option at anything like the same frequency but the option is there.
posted by Justinian at 1:56 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
My apologies for completely misrepresenting the gender of the author in my comments above. She is his sister, not his brother.
Anyways, thinking about this some more, the mother is obviously super involved with her son having a sexual experience* and is concerned with finding the right woman for him (per her estimation of what that means, not his it would seem). Yet, I find it odd that she chooses this woman based on (from what we can tell) no more than a vouch from somebody she knows. She doesn't negotiate the fee, doesn't tell Monique where her son lives exactly, and states that Monique should provide her own bottle of wine (why can't she honor her request and what is the point of us knowing about this part? Is she being 'put in her place' here? Is that what we're supposed to think?). But yet, when it's all over, wants to know all the details. In fact, she can't wait, and makes the call herself.
It's all so nosy and disrespectful to the both of them. Monique is brought into this, yet held at a distance up to the point where she serves her purpose. And Danny is the subject of all of this, but only so much as he is the fronted object. These things are happening to him, but no agency whatsoever. So whose preferences, wants, feelings and actions do we get to hear about the most? If it was a privacy issue, I'd understand the bias, but it's clearly not given the events and their publicity.
I know I've been really harsh and I want to be clear that I am all for the son having sexual experiences, the mom providing what she can for him and all of that. But if it's what he wants. A big gift/favor is nothing if it's unwanted. It sounds like he was talked into this (dad, too). If it was what he wanted (sex, children, any and all of it) wouldn't he be more than "alright, alright"? And why doesn't he get to pick the woman he'd like to lose his virginity to? Why are all these decisions being made for him when it's not even clear how much he's on board with the concept in the first place?
*For his own enjoyment, but also to see if he was capable of having children and providing her with grandchildren (does he even want children? want his mother to raise them after he's gone? —we don't know, but these are definitely factors that go unaddressed, which I find odd at the very least.)
posted by iamkimiam at 3:01 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Anyways, thinking about this some more, the mother is obviously super involved with her son having a sexual experience* and is concerned with finding the right woman for him (per her estimation of what that means, not his it would seem). Yet, I find it odd that she chooses this woman based on (from what we can tell) no more than a vouch from somebody she knows. She doesn't negotiate the fee, doesn't tell Monique where her son lives exactly, and states that Monique should provide her own bottle of wine (why can't she honor her request and what is the point of us knowing about this part? Is she being 'put in her place' here? Is that what we're supposed to think?). But yet, when it's all over, wants to know all the details. In fact, she can't wait, and makes the call herself.
It's all so nosy and disrespectful to the both of them. Monique is brought into this, yet held at a distance up to the point where she serves her purpose. And Danny is the subject of all of this, but only so much as he is the fronted object. These things are happening to him, but no agency whatsoever. So whose preferences, wants, feelings and actions do we get to hear about the most? If it was a privacy issue, I'd understand the bias, but it's clearly not given the events and their publicity.
I know I've been really harsh and I want to be clear that I am all for the son having sexual experiences, the mom providing what she can for him and all of that. But if it's what he wants. A big gift/favor is nothing if it's unwanted. It sounds like he was talked into this (dad, too). If it was what he wanted (sex, children, any and all of it) wouldn't he be more than "alright, alright"? And why doesn't he get to pick the woman he'd like to lose his virginity to? Why are all these decisions being made for him when it's not even clear how much he's on board with the concept in the first place?
*For his own enjoyment, but also to see if he was capable of having children and providing her with grandchildren (does he even want children? want his mother to raise them after he's gone? —we don't know, but these are definitely factors that go unaddressed, which I find odd at the very least.)
posted by iamkimiam at 3:01 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
If only Danny had some way of telling the call girl he wasn't interested or keeping his door closed or something.
And then get browbeaten some more by his tiger mom?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:36 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
And then get browbeaten some more by his tiger mom?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:36 AM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
As soon as Danny said "No," the conversation should have been over.
posted by DWRoelands at 1:10 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by DWRoelands at 1:10 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Seriously. And then imagine if the daughter was actually a cat, but with a human face. And the prostitute was actually a clock of some sort, or a big bell. Pretty freaky when you think about it.
posted by bepe at 5:26 PM on May 14
I have absolutely no idea what sort of point you're trying to make with this post.
posted by magstheaxe at 2:15 PM on May 15, 2013
posted by bepe at 5:26 PM on May 14
I have absolutely no idea what sort of point you're trying to make with this post.
posted by magstheaxe at 2:15 PM on May 15, 2013
> And why doesn't he get to pick the woman he'd like to lose his virginity to?
Or person. Because, as I mentioned upthread, we don't even know if Danny was straight. Odds are he was, but it was the 80s and he had a mother who was clearly invested in him "meeting a girl... getting married and maybe having children of his own," so it's not exactly a foregone conclusion that she would have known.
posted by Westringia F. at 5:06 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
Or person. Because, as I mentioned upthread, we don't even know if Danny was straight. Odds are he was, but it was the 80s and he had a mother who was clearly invested in him "meeting a girl... getting married and maybe having children of his own," so it's not exactly a foregone conclusion that she would have known.
posted by Westringia F. at 5:06 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm on the skeeved out by the mother train on this one, particularly her high powered focus on getting her son to have children. It's really off when any parent starts frothing about grandbabies, but considering his rather severe GENETIC disease, you think there'd be at least some mention of a concern there. If he had found someone interested in kids who was also a carrier their baby would have a 1 in 2 chance of barely surviving to their fifth birthday. They didn't have genetic screening for it until 2001 so there'd be no way to know until it happened.
There would only be two people on the planet allowed to weigh in on that decision, and the mother is sure as hell not one of them.
posted by Dynex at 6:01 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
There would only be two people on the planet allowed to weigh in on that decision, and the mother is sure as hell not one of them.
posted by Dynex at 6:01 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
"Sex was just another marker that was necessary but delayed"
Necessary? No. Nice and pleasant and possibly awesome? Sure, but this article plays into a really outdated stereotype of young boys having to "lose it" in order to be validated as men. That the mother facilitated this is fine I guess, no harm no foul, but that she even was brought to think this way in the first place is problematic.
“'You took care of everything!' he said, smiling with relief. 'You're quite a lady.'"
Again, long-standing unspoken assumption that manhood requires the direct physical usage of a female body. No, wrong, bad.
I happen to be a big fan of consensual sex myself, but the notion that somebody who remains a virgin is somehow half-a-person is pretty reprehensible.
posted by bardic at 3:07 AM on May 14, 2013 [55 favorites]