When does six equal nine?
May 23, 2013 9:52 AM   Subscribe

Magic Hat Brewery is facing a ban in several Lexington, Kentucky establishments after a recent lawsuit against local business West Sixth Brewery. Many are dubious about the claims being made regarding copyright infringement. The Consumerist offers a visual guide to some of the potential similarities between the designs. West Sixth claims that they are experiencing corporate bullying and have asked the community to sign a petition and stop drinking Magic Hat, while Magic Hat argues that West Sixth has been less than straightforward with the public. West Sixth responds with further claims of corporate chicanery.
posted by a fiendish thingy (159 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
regarding copyright infringement

Trademark infringement, an important distinction.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:55 AM on May 23, 2013 [17 favorites]


Oh lord. I am a fan of small craft beer, but TEH OUTRAGES I have seen from similar friends is just ridiculous. I think both parties are acting like asses here.
posted by Kitteh at 10:00 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I saw this yesterday on /r/beer , then checked the comments and the first comment (at the time) summed it up exactly what I thought after reading West 6th's posting:
That might be the most unprofessional thing I have ever read.
posted by wcfields at 10:03 AM on May 23, 2013


It's hard to get worked up about this, since the most notable instance of "irreparable harm" with regards to the Magic Hat #9 trademark is the taste of that stuff itself.
posted by invitapriore at 10:03 AM on May 23, 2013 [27 favorites]


I was trying to come up with the Magic Hat beer I really like and went through their website and in conclusion I think I've just bought their variety case enough times that I falsely believed I had some devotion to them.

Also their website is really needlessly confusing.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:05 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


I mean, you blatantly rip off one of the most ubiquitous logos in craft beer, and then whinge to social media when you get called out? The response ought to be extreme fucking contrition and haha-you-got-me, not adolescent indignation.

I mean, I still won't drink #9, but it sure has nothing to do with this.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:07 AM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]


They have a couple of beers I like. But they don't sell them here in Quebec, which is fine as we have own preferred microbreweries anyway.

I DID buy their summer mix pack the last time I was in the US. They had a cucumber-hibiscus beer which was an affront to all things foamy and good. Seriously. It was awful.
posted by Kitteh at 10:08 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


The FPP's responds link directs me to a neverending "Please verify your age" loop. Therefore, based on the fact that West Sixth's website sucks, I officially declare Magic Hat the winner.
posted by cribcage at 10:11 AM on May 23, 2013 [10 favorites]


Seriously. It was awful.

I finally picked up the Magic Hat #9 after seeing the mysterious bottles on the shelf for months. Four of the six are still sitting in my fridge. Either I'm going to have to get some better beers, get drubk and power through them, or they're going in the sink.
posted by eyeballkid at 10:11 AM on May 23, 2013


I'd do the former; buy some better beer, have one of those, then the #9, repeat until drunk but fridge is empty.
posted by Kitteh at 10:12 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Trademark infringement, an important distinction.

You are right, I mis-typed. Thank you for the correction!
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:13 AM on May 23, 2013


I'm not a graphics designer but those two logos don't look all that similar to me?
posted by kmz at 10:13 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh come on, they are both numbers inside of a circle! Clearly one is a rip-off of the other, because that is a truly unique design.
posted by monospace at 10:16 AM on May 23, 2013 [4 favorites]


They had a cucumber-hibiscus beer

Oh god why????

I love cucumber-infused water in the summer. Crisp and refreshing!

I love Red Zinger herbal tea and agua de jamaica. Complex and invigorating!

But those flavors together? Ugh. And combined with beer? Double ugh.

It sounds like their new products team sat around coming up with refreshing summer flavored beer ideas akin to Abita's strawberry thing (and probably some other fruit flavored summer microbrews, not a big fruity beer fan), and somebody picked cucumber hibiscus because it sounded good with absolutely zero thought about what those flavors would actually taste like combined with each other and added to beer.
posted by Sara C. at 10:17 AM on May 23, 2013


I can't imagine getting the two confused.
posted by 2bucksplus at 10:17 AM on May 23, 2013


kmz, I guess you've never had #9. The only way to truly enjoy the beer it is to turn it upside down, open and let it all pour out on the floor missing your mouth entirely. As most people I know enjoy #9 this way the logo is often mistaken for a 6.
posted by any major dude at 10:21 AM on May 23, 2013 [36 favorites]


Imagine just the beer caps, too. Round, can't tell which way is up.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:21 AM on May 23, 2013 [4 favorites]


> Magic Hat... is now part of a $360+ million brewing concern that includes Labatt’s, Genesee, Honey Brown and Pyramid. It is owned by a holding company in Costa Rica [....] The federal lawsuit requests all profits that the brewery... made since beginning the logo’s use. (Since it opened, in other words).

Yeah, no. After looking at the logos being contended, I've kind of slid from "not sure I care" towards "fuck those guys." It sounds a little too much like an opportunistic attempt to shut down a competitor, cloaked in a claim of trademark infringement.
posted by ardgedee at 10:22 AM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm with sio42. And that redounds badly to badly to West 6th not only because it's kinda a rip off, but also because, mistaking their beer for a Magic Hat brew I wouldn't touch the stuff unless I was desperate.
posted by wotsac at 10:22 AM on May 23, 2013


Not only is it impossible to mistake West 6th's logo for the Magic Hat logo, it's impossible to mistake Magic Hat for beer.
posted by xedrik at 10:25 AM on May 23, 2013


This is a perfectly legitimate lawsuit for Magic Hat to initiate.

Do the logos look close enough that this represents trademark infringement? I don't know, that's for a judge to decide after seeing the relevant evidence and according to whatever standards exist for this sort of thing.

It's not really fair for West Sixth to whine about the fact that they're being sued. If you're so sure it's not trademark infringement, gather your evidence and prove it. This is how the legal system works.

I'm sure that if I started a craft brewery called Wessex Brewery, and made a circular green logo with a star in it, West Sixth would be happy to sue me.
posted by Sara C. at 10:26 AM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]


Do people really hate Magic Hat this much? I don't go out of my way to buy it, but if I'm at a bar that has it on a happy hour special, I'll definitely drink it. It's never wowed me, but I wouldn't pour it down the drain either.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:27 AM on May 23, 2013 [12 favorites]


Technically it's fine to whine about things if you're getting sued, it's just generally not terribly productive in terms of shoring up your legal arguments.
posted by iamabot at 10:28 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm not a crazy beer guy, but if someone tried to sue New Glarus or in any way hinder their ability to bring delicious happiness to my mouth, I'd be screaming too.
posted by deathpanels at 10:31 AM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]


It's not really fair for West Sixth to whine about the fact that they're being sued.

It is, considering that even if they win, they'll have had to spent time, money and afford defending themselves which could've been more productive spent making beer.

Where West Sixth went wrong is thinking that bad pr/outrage amongst beer geeks could stop this lawsuit, when it looks more like a tactical weapon used by Ass Hat to destroy a competitor in the name of selling fake craft beer.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:31 AM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


deathpanels: "I'm not a crazy beer guy, but if someone tried to sue New Glarus or in any way hinder their ability to bring delicious happiness to my mouth, I'd be screaming too."

I'm of the opinion that Spotted Cow should be considered a miracle, such that Dan Carey would be eligible for sainthood.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:33 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh come on, they are both numbers inside of a circle! Clearly one is a rip-off of the other, because that is a truly unique design.

The fonts are really similar too. If you look at a bunch of nines, it's a relatively unusual font choice. They also both have an eight-pointed star inside the circle, and the color of the star in the Magic Hat logo is a less-saturated version of the color of the 6 in the West Sixth version. (The color similarity is a little more clear in Magic Hat's other logo.)

In other words, someone going into an industry where this logo is (I imagine) quite well-known said, "I know, our logo should be a 6 in the same font as that 9, in a circle, with an eight-pointed star in the circle, and we should use a similar color green."

I'm not saying I personally find the two logos confusing. But I am saying that person made a really bad call. (Or else a really smart marketing decision, if they were hoping for this controversy.)
posted by jhc at 10:35 AM on May 23, 2013 [11 favorites]


It's not really fair for West Sixth to whine about the fact that they're being sued. If you're so sure it's not trademark infringement, gather your evidence and prove it. This is how the legal system works.

I'm sure that if I started a craft brewery called Wessex Brewery, and made a circular green logo with a star in it, West Sixth would be happy to sue me.


I think part of the point is that the craft brewing industry is not a sort of cut-throat, sue everyone if it helps you make more money kind of industry. I doubt that West Sixth wants to hire lawyers to pursue lawsuits against anybody and would probably rather spend all of their money and time on making beer.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:36 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


But those flavors together? Ugh. And combined with beer? Double ugh.

The cucumber is weird, but having just made a hibiscus beer I have to say it was delightful. Very sour. Tasted not unlike a gueuze, though we certainly weren't following anything similar to a lambic recipe.

Derail aside, I've said elsewhere that the only way you could mistake the West Sixth for a Magic Hat label would be if they were printed upside down on a printer with no cyan. But I suppose shakespeherian has a point about the caps.
posted by solotoro at 10:38 AM on May 23, 2013


Bulgaroktonos, I think most of my hatred of the beer comes from friends and family invariably showing up at my house for a party or gathering with a 6 pack of that swill in hand. They know nothing about beer yet know I like craft beer and are invariably drawn to the hypnotic colorful "we are not budweiser, buy this for your beer snob friend" logo. It's the Fox News of craft beers.
posted by any major dude at 10:39 AM on May 23, 2013 [4 favorites]


I like Magic Hat beers in general and #9 specifically (or I have in the past) and am bummed that they're now part of some terrible beverage conglomerate.
posted by octothorpe at 10:39 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


a tactical weapon used by Ass Hat to destroy a competitor in the name of selling fake craft beer.

Does Magic Hat have a history of suing smaller breweries to, like, prevent any competitor from existing?

There are A LOT of breweries out there. I don't think Magic Hat is suing all of them.

West Sixth isn't even a direct competitor to them. Magic Hat is based in Vermont and is a relatively well-known sort of midlevel independent brewery. Probably too big to be considered "craft beer" at this point. West Sixth is a microbrewery based in Kentucky that AFAIK is only regionally available.

If Magic Hat was suing a bunch of craft breweries in Vermont over obviously trumped up bullshit, I would buy that this is predatory and awful and How Dare They.

But they're not. They're suing a brewery in Kentucky for trademark infringement, because said brewery has a logo that looks a hell of a lot like the (ubiquitous in the US) Magic Hat logo. Which is why trademark infringement lawsuits exist.
posted by Sara C. at 10:40 AM on May 23, 2013 [15 favorites]


Do the logos look close enough that this represents trademark infringement? I don't know, that's for a judge to decide after seeing the relevant evidence and according to whatever standards exist for this sort of thing.

Well, it is for the jury to decide because a jury trial was demanded in the complaint.

IAAL who does some IP work. I reviewed the competing marks and West Sixth's claim that all the lawyers they talked to say the suit is meritless. I disagree. I think the suit has merit. Whether they win at trial is another matter but the Polaroid factors look good for Magic Hat to me. It is worth bearing in mind that Magic #9 does not need to show actual confusion (although that surely helps). The issue is likelihood of confusion.

I find it terribly unprofessional that West Sixth is slugging this out in social media.

All of the hate for Magic #9 is beyond me. It is not my favorite beer but it is far from my last choice.
posted by Tanizaki at 10:43 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think part of the point is that the craft brewing industry is not a sort of cut-throat, sue everyone if it helps you make more money kind of industry.

I don't think it's "cutthroat" to protect your trademark.

And if you don't think West Sixth wants to protect its trademark, you are probably confused about what capitalism is.

Breweries aren't nonprofits. You'd better believe that if West Sixth felt like some other brewery had infringed its trademark, they would take action.
posted by Sara C. at 10:43 AM on May 23, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm with Greg Nog. It'll never be my preferred choice of beer, but if it's going cheap at a bar I happen to be at in Vermont, sure, I'll drink the fuck out of it.
posted by Kitteh at 10:43 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I actually just made a cucumber perry/cider thing! It was great,

This sounds super good!

I feel like cucumber beer would taste perilously like pickle juice, but I guess if it was a really crisp and light beer, maybe not?
posted by Sara C. at 10:46 AM on May 23, 2013


For me, personally, there's something about the nature of #9's maltiness that really grosses me out. I despise Fat Tire for pretty much the same reason. They both have this burnt malt taste* that reminds me alternately of the inside of a feed store and the water in a vase of dying flowers.

* I really like stouts, so this isn't a matter of how the barley is roasted for what it's worth.
posted by invitapriore at 10:48 AM on May 23, 2013


The main thing I've taken away from this beef is that I don't know as much about typography as I'd like. I'd like to argue "come on, lots of typefaces have that twoodly little ballthinger on their numerals," but I can't figure out what the twoodly ballthinger is actually called.
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:48 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I really hate #9, but Roxy Rolles, which I'm not sure they make anymore, is pretty good. And according to Untappd, apparently I didn't hate Heart of Darkness, which is not my usual type of beer, so either it's genuinely good or I was already blitzed when I drank it. Maybe a little of each.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:50 AM on May 23, 2013


I'm pretty sure Twoodly Ballthinger is a little-known member of the groundskeeping staff at Hogwarts.
posted by invitapriore at 10:50 AM on May 23, 2013 [15 favorites]


Man, I thought you folk would be all over that KyForward article: "their tactics ... are insatiable", "issued a legal suit, in silence", "the fire that has fueled the debate has grown into a full-out inferno.", "The battle seems to take on “David vs. Goliath-type” proportions", "... taking his love of craft beer into the occupation ranks.". It's the next Thomas Friedman.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:51 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


But what did the cab driver think?
posted by Chrysostom at 10:52 AM on May 23, 2013


I'd call it a type of serif, and call the typeface in general a "didone" or "modern" type. But I don't know that much about typography. There's probably a specific word for a rounded serif.
posted by Sara C. at 10:53 AM on May 23, 2013


Look Greg if you want Magic Hat to sue you, just keep doing what you're doing.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:54 AM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


I was gonna make a twoodly ballthinger tagline but invitapriore's joke is better
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:55 AM on May 23, 2013


Honestly, I think they're similar enough that it would be a pretty striking coincidence if it happened by accident.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:55 AM on May 23, 2013


OK I just looked it up and that bobbly thing on the 6 is probably more correctly called an "ear" rather than a "serif".
posted by Sara C. at 10:56 AM on May 23, 2013


I'm telling you, the number of ways those sentences are bad is amazing.

"The battle seems to take on “David vs. Goliath-type” proportions"


- Why "seems"?
- Why "-type"?
- In David vs. Goliath, it was the combatants whose proportions were remarkable, not the battle. The battle was quick — one stone and it's over.

It's not just choosing words poorly, it's inappropriate metaphors inartfully phrased. You'd think the writer was drunk or something.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:58 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


-- judge walks in and shakes his head at me before sharpieing the word BAD on my forehead --

These days, most states are franchulates or Burbclaves, much too small to have anything like a jail, or even a judicial system. So when someone does something bad, they try to find quick and dirty punishments, like flogging, confiscation of property, public humiliation, or, in the case of people who have a high potential of going on to hurt others, a warning tattoo on a prominent body part. POOR IMPULSE CONTROL. Apparently, this guy went to such a place and lost his temper real bad.
posted by iamabot at 11:01 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I FIGURED IT OUT! The twoodly ballthinger is a bulbous terminal.
posted by Metroid Baby at 11:01 AM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]


Now, if 6 turned up to be 9, I'm not really sure I'd mind. Indeed, if all the hippies cut off their hair, I wouldn't care either. It's just that I have my own world to live through and I'm not going to copy you.
posted by klarck at 11:03 AM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]


You guys, come on, if you don't like a beer, don't pour it down the drain.

Put it on your compost heap. Nature isn't picky.
posted by emjaybee at 11:16 AM on May 23, 2013


Beer snobs are the worst. It's BEER. It tastes like horsepiss. We drink it cold and quickly.

And yeah, I think Magic Hat has a decent case here. The standards for trademark infringement are less than for copyright.

Could you imagine confusion for the average beer consumer between those brands? I could.

Do people really hate Magic Hat this much?

I think the snobs are reacting to the mass marketing the beer has enjoyed over the past few years, rather than the beer itself. To me, it was fairly unremarkable, not bad at all.

I think part of the point is that the craft brewing industry is not a sort of cut-throat, sue everyone if it helps you make more money kind of industry.

To be, that was the rub here. Where the hell does Magic Hat get all that marketing money? I figured they were owned by Busch or Seagram's or something.

Ah, they were part of NAB, which was bought by Cerveceria Costa Rica , so yeah, they are owned by fucking FIFCO. Just like fucking Pyramid.

The FPP's responds link directs me to a neverending "Please verify your age" loop. Therefore, based on the fact that West Sixth's website sucks, I officially declare Magic Hat the winner.

Age-verified URL for the W6 response to the MH response.

But yeah, that response doesn't seem like the wisest move for the little guy here.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:19 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


You guys, come on, if you don't like a beer, don't pour it down the drain.

Put it on your compost heap. Nature isn't picky.


or jeez, just use it in your pancakes. Magic Hat would work fine.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:20 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


mrgrimm: "Beer snobs are the worst. It's BEER. It tastes like horsepiss. We drink it cold and quickly."

I haven't drank for over a decade. but if your favorite beer tastes like horsepiss, why on earth are you drinking it? You do realize you have options, right? You don't have to be a snob to want something better than horsepiss.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:21 AM on May 23, 2013 [13 favorites]


EXACTLY.

I go for alpacapiss myself.
posted by Madamina at 11:24 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


You know, the thing is, #9 is an apricot-flavored pale ale, and I can't stand it because it tastes like perfume from a tween accessories store, but one of my most favorite beers is Dogfish Head's Aprihop, an apricot-flavored IPA. Which goes to show that it can be done right. For me, at least.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:25 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm guessing this tiff is good publicity for both companies.
posted by surplus at 11:25 AM on May 23, 2013


if your favorite beer tastes like horsepiss, why on earth are you drinking it

My favorite wine smells like horse shit.

Don't judge me just because I like to drink piss and smell shit.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:25 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm guessing this tiff is good publicity for both companies.

It's good publicity for West Sixth, but not for Magic Hat. They'd be happy if WS silently changed their logo. I don't think this suit will make anyone think more favorably of Magic Hat. And if you didn't know about Magic Hat already, you're probably not in their demo.

West Sixth is playing the dangerous game of tempting the legal banhammer while reaping the free PR. I dunno enough about IP law to know the odds and risks here.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:28 AM on May 23, 2013


Where the hell does Magic Hat get all that marketing money?

It's not "marketing money". A distributor alerted them to the existence of this other beer with a logo that looks a lot like theirs.

And I think both Magic Hat and West Sixth are probably large enough businesses to have lawyers. We're not talking about rival lemonades stands.
posted by Sara C. at 11:29 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


"Beer snobs are the worst. It's BEER. It tastes like horsepiss. We drink it cold and quickly."

Your favorite band sux.
posted by Sara C. at 11:30 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think the snobs are reacting to the mass marketing the beer has enjoyed over the past few years, rather than the beer itself. To me, it was fairly unremarkable, not bad at all.

Yup. They're good for what they are: inoffensive, comparatively light body, interesting flavor combinations that sometimes work, sometimes not - hot-weather beer. Number 9 and Circus Boy, particularly...

It's not Fin du Monde, but who wants to drink Fin du Monde after spending an hour in the sun with a weed-whacker?
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:33 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think most of my hatred of the beer comes from friends and family invariably showing up at my house for a party or gathering with a 6 pack of that swill in hand.

yeah how dare your not-as-beer-snobby-as-you friends and family try to please your finicky taste by bringing something they think is nicer than their usual to your house. What jerks they must be.
posted by ook at 11:36 AM on May 23, 2013 [10 favorites]


Beer snobs are the worst. It's BEER. It tastes like horsepiss. We drink it cold and quickly.

a) yr doing it wrong

and

b) I'm not a beer snob. I like good beer. I seek out good beer. But I'm also a hang with the beer you got and not the beer you want type of dude. At a party with Coors Lite and MGD? I'll drink it. I don't think I've found a beer, that wasn't bad batch or bottle, undrinkable except for the #9 in my fridge. There's something about it that doesn't work at all for me. It's like someone mixed a weak ale with the red Nyquil. I bought it because I wanted something light to drink while BBQing. Luckily there was tequila and limes around or I would have been drubk fail.

About the topic at hand, the logos are surprisingly similar, boiling down to a 6* and a 9* when I look at them. Not surprised by the lawsuit at all.
posted by eyeballkid at 11:36 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Do people really hate Magic Hat this much?

I don't hate Magic Hat—if someone gave me one for free I'd drink it. Magic Hat isn't any worse than any other generic cheap beer at the bar, just more expensive IME. Therefore, when I want something good, I don't ask for Magic Hat; and when I want something cheap, I still don't ask for Magic Hat. I guess the name "Magic Hat" is the only thing I really like about Magic Hat.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:38 AM on May 23, 2013


Ook it'd be like saying oh I know my friend likes punk, I bet they'd love Good Charlotte.
posted by Carillon at 11:39 AM on May 23, 2013


Speaking as someone who likes good beer, I DO wish threads that somehow involve brewing didn't immediately turn into a discussion of the merits of the beers in question, rather than the subject of the post.

I mean, I don't like #9, or really any of the Magic Hat beers, but that doesn't have anything to do with the legal action here.

YMMV
posted by Chrysostom at 11:40 AM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]


In other words, someone going into an industry where this logo is (I imagine) quite well-known said, "I know, our logo should be a 6 in the same font as that 9, in a circle, with an eight-pointed star in the circle, and we should use a similar color green."

I was ready to side with the little guy here, but it’s pretty obvious that even though the logos don’t look exactly the same, someone said "make me a logo that looks like Magic Hat". They got what they asked for. In every sense.
posted by bongo_x at 11:46 AM on May 23, 2013 [4 favorites]


Magic Hat could taste like moldy vomit going down and react catastrophically with stomach acid to make you fart out your mouth for a week, and West Sixth be literal manna from heaven that cures impotence and straightens your spine. If West Sixth's logo is infringing, they're right to lose the suit.
posted by kafziel at 11:47 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


It makes the copyright accusation nonsense even more ironic for me in that I've always taken the "#9" as a reference to The Beatles' "Revolution #9" and thereby glomming onto the cultural momentum of that song. (Maybe I overestimate young beer drinkers' awareness of The Beatles.) Meanwhile, the beer was okay but not good enough that I've made a point of buying it again instead of trying new stuff or old faves from the craft beer store.
posted by aught at 11:49 AM on May 23, 2013


It makes the copyright accusation nonsense even more ironic for me in that I've always taken the "#9" as a reference to The Beatles' "Revolution #9" and thereby glomming onto the cultural momentum of that song.

The Beetles didn't invent rock'n'roll y'know.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:51 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


oh I know my friend likes punk, I bet they'd love Good Charlotte.

So?

As the punk fan, you say, "oh, thanks, I'll check them out!" and then you quietly never bring it up again. Or if they're playing a song for you, you bop your head along to it for a track, and then say, "that was nice" and never speak of it again.

Same for all those midrange entry-level "craft" beers like Magic Hat, Brooklyn Lager, Sam Adams, etc. You say, "Oh, thanks for bringing beer to my party, that was really sweet of you!" and then you put it in the fridge and hope other people drink it. If there's some left over, and you absolutely cannot at all stomach that particular brand, just leave it around for the next time you have non-snob friends over.

I personally think those types of beers are great at a party, on a hot day, or paired with a casual meal like pizza or barbecue. I don't tend to pick Magic Hat out for myself, but if someone hands me one, I'll drink it. It's fine.

Like someone upthread said, I don't need to drink Fin du Monde all the time. Last night I had a Lagunitas and Chinese takeout. It was great.

I remain completely agnostic on Magic Hat in general, though. Will drink it. Never been compelled to buy it or order it in a bar.
posted by Sara C. at 11:53 AM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah of course you're not saying it to them. I'm not saying call them out nor was any major dude, though I could be wrong on that. But gripping about it later in a semi-anonymous way? What's the harm? Plus it would certainly increase my antipathy towards it.
posted by Carillon at 11:56 AM on May 23, 2013


but who wants to drink Fin du Monde after spending an hour in the sun with a weed-whacker?


*raises hand*
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:57 AM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]


I've always taken the "#9" as a reference to The Beatles' "Revolution #9"

I always thought it was supposed to be that they couldn't come up with a name for the beer and kept it as Beer Number Nine. Because it's so good, it's, like, indescribable, man. But you may be right that the picked 9 as opposed to 3 or 7 or 16 because it's kind of a groovy mystical Beatles-esque number.
posted by Sara C. at 11:58 AM on May 23, 2013


Ook it'd be like saying oh I know my friend likes punk, I bet they'd love Good Charlotte.

I'm just going to assume from context, as I know nothing about punk, that Good Charlotte is terrible dreck.

If so, then no, it wouldn't be anything at all like saying that. Magic Hat isn't terrible beer. It's perfectly decent but apparently no longer fashionable in some peoples' minds beer. Some of their varieties aren't to my taste, some are, but I'd feel really ridiculous and pretentious calling any of them "swill".

Well, ok, maybe that dandelion one they had for a while. That one was pretty darn bad.

But griping about it later in a semi-anonymous way? What's the harm?

It makes you sound pretentious and ridiculous?
posted by ook at 11:59 AM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Not a huge #9 fan, but I would happily take a Magic Hat over a Coors or a Bud any day and twice after 5pm. But how come their website doesn't show "Hex" which is the one Magic Hat I actually like?

But more to the point: I would never confuse the 6 label and the 9 label and think they're the same beer. But I would totally look at that number 6 label and assume it was from the same company that made number 9. I'm always on the little guy's side, but if was Magic Hat I wouldn't like it either.
posted by tyllwin at 12:01 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


I think the complaint is that you could get something that is *good* for the same price rather than something that is merely not terrible and perfectly decent.
posted by Zalzidrax at 12:01 PM on May 23, 2013


"You know, the thing is, #9 is an apricot-flavored pale ale, and I can't stand it because it tastes like perfume from a tween accessories store,"

Ugh. I bought some accidentally, and my first thought was, "This tastes like hotel soap."
posted by klangklangston at 12:06 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm just going to assume from context, as I know nothing about punk, that Good Charlotte is terrible dreck.

It's not so much that Good Charlotte is horrible shit, it's more the type of music and what they represent. They're sort of watered down pop-punk major label Hot Topic kind of sound.

It actually is a really good analogy in terms of snobbery.

Magic Hat's brand is decent enough American beers that are accessible to people who either cut their teeth on Budweiser or "Don't Like Beer". The name and their whole brand identity is carefully designed to seem quirky and unique, despite being owned by a huge bev congolmerate (though I don't think they always were). Because of their huge conglomerate status, they're more widely available than a "true" craft beer, and also on the cheaper end.

It's the kind of beer you drink when you're 22 and excited that you actually get to have a choice in what beer you drink. Then you grow up and mature into more interesting stuff, especially if you start hanging out in more beer oriented bars or have a little extra bank to spend on nicer beers. Which is probably why the reaction to Magic Hat is so dramatic among self-avowed beer snobs.
posted by Sara C. at 12:07 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


My 2¢.

The question regarding confusion between 6 v. 9 has arisen before, and was in fact deliberated on in some detail by a noted philosopher.

But more seriously, this is the thing: How many times have you accidentally dialed 611 in an emergency? Have you ever wondered who just called you and dialed #69 to find out? And how many of you accidentally scrawl 999 during your Saturday-night goat sacrifice? Or fail at Twitter because you added the non-hashtag *beersnob ?

6 is not 9. A compass star is not a hashmark. This is like Motel 6 suing Super 8 because they are both cheap hotels and a 6 visually resembles an 8, if you squint. What's next, is Magic Hat going to sue Motel 6 because they also have a 6 in the logo? Is the estate of John Lennon going to get involved and claim prior art due to #9 Dream?

Magic Hat has every right to argue that there could be confusion, but I don't see it. Swirly, almost buried-in-the-background, centered-in-the-logo #9 doesn't at all look enough like a 6, left-justified, attached to the border, with a contrasting color compass star next to it, for me to believe the average individual will easily conflate the two. The Magic Hat logo is two-tone and uses positive space for the 9 and #, the West Sixth logo uses negative space for the 6 and border, and is three-tone.

All of which completely ignores the fact that the West Sixth logo - everywhere I have seen it aside from the Consumerist site - prominently features the wordmark "West Sixth Brewing" around the top of the logo. Consumerist site helpfully explains that the logo depicted has had the wording removed to increase the visual similarity.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:08 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


A compass star is not a hashmark.

There's also a star on the #9 logo. I thought that part of it was silly, too, until I noticed.
posted by Sara C. at 12:11 PM on May 23, 2013


Yeah, you'd think dude would read up on IP law before running his mouth...IANAL, but the way I understand it, the court sez, "you want protection from us when you're being ripped off, you have to act every time you think you're being ripped off. You can't get let parties, a, b, c and d copy your shit because they're cool and then run to us for sanctions when party e does it. Either you want it protected or you don't."


This isn't one of those case where it's two completely different fields, either --- if I was browsing in a liquor store and saw those two next to each other, I could definitely see thinking they were two beers by the same company. Kentucky guy is going about this in a really dumb way that's going to win him tons of meaningless Internet points and lose him tons of actual money
posted by Diablevert at 12:14 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]


The Beatles! Yes! There's a small brewery near me called Revolution, and I'm wondering whether I should run over there and warn them before they decide to get too clever with their next label. Hope I'm not too late.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 12:16 PM on May 23, 2013


burnmp3s: I doubt that West Sixth wants to hire lawyers to pursue lawsuits against anybody and would probably rather spend all of their money and time on making beer.
Well, that's easy enough. Simply change their logo to something that looks very different, and their problem is solved.

Otherwise, the law is clearly intended to force corporations to bring cases like this to trial. Blame the legislators, not the corporation.
posted by IAmBroom at 12:17 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Eh, my guess is that they're hoping that the internet brew-ha-ha (pun possibly intended) leads to an uptick in sales, which covers the brand identity redesign they're going to have to do.

They'll settle, possibly for a token amount of money, with the provision that they change the logo. Which is all Magic Hat really wants here.
posted by Sara C. at 12:17 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Magic Hat has every right to argue that there could be confusion, but I don't see it. Swirly, almost buried-in-the-background, centered-in-the-logo #9 doesn't at all look enough like a 6, left-justified, attached to the border, with a contrasting color compass star next to it, for me to believe the average individual will easily conflate the two. The Magic Hat logo is two-tone and uses positive space for the 9 and #, the West Sixth logo uses negative space for the 6 and border, and is three-tone.

You are too hung up on 6 and 9. That is not the sole basis for a trademark claim. The "611" argument is a bad one to make.

Looking at the pictures on the Consumerist page, I think this is an issue of trade dress. The law school case on trade dress is the Taco Cabana case. Refer to the appearance of Taco Cabana and Two Pesos. In that case, the Supreme Court held that Taco Cabana's restaurant design was distinctive and thus protected trademark.

IAAL.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:18 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


The law school case on trade dress is the Taco Cabana case.

Changed my mind. TOTALLY going to law school now.

What? Not all important legal decisions involve tacos? NOW YOU TELL ME. Gah.
posted by Sara C. at 12:19 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Beer snobs are the worst. It's BEER. It tastes like horsepiss. We drink it cold and quickly.

Ah, the reverse-snob has arrived! The anti-hipster can't be far behind.
posted by Edgewise at 12:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]


but who wants to drink Fin du Monde after spending an hour in the sun with a weed-whacker?

I drank 2 in quick succession of them after my first bike century. Only 2 problems encountered:

1) I couldn't figure out if they would be Fins du monde (ends of the world), or Fin du mondes (end of worlds).
2) Unexpected naptime.
posted by Lemurrhea at 12:28 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]


Le Fin du Monde? Ha! Try drinking more than one Trois Pistoles on a hot day. That's pretty much guaranteeing unexpected naptime.

(seriously, it's good but that's a winter beer all the way for me)
posted by Kitteh at 12:29 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


It seems to me that reverse-snobs are even worse than snobs. A beer snob is, at least, advocating for something they enjoy and would like you to enjoy as well.

That's a pretty rosy picture of snobbery; the typical snob is advocating against something they don't enjoy, that you might. People hate beer snobs when they devote their time to running down Budweiser or Miller or (apparently) Magic Hat. People don't typically complain when someone says "I love beer X, you should try it."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:38 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]


The first Old Stock I drank was so good that I opened another. And that one was so good I opened a third. Halfway through the third I stood up and—whoa—that was a problem.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:38 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


One thing that is sort of highlighted here when you start talking about beer snobbery and beers like Magic Hat and what to drink on a hot day is that, in my opinion, beer snobbery based on type is sort of dumb.

I love Belgian-style beer. It is quite possibly the best kind of beer on the planet. But sometimes I want to drink a kolsch, or an IPA, or a stout. There are some really great beers in those types out there. There are also plenty of really good American lagers and amber ales and the like.

Can't we embrace great beer in its infinite variety? Do we all need to sit around drinking Belgians out of tulips in order to be considered True Beer Snobs?

What should someone who wants to drink a Magic Hat type beer choose instead?

Or, what are the great beers to order in a dive with a small selection?

What's the best beer your average supermarket is going to carry?

What's the ideal "bring to a party of non-snobs" beer?

Those are all much more useful things to think about, to me, than "Does Magic Hat suck and if so why does it suck so much".
posted by Sara C. at 12:38 PM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]


Beer snobs are the worst. It's BEER. It tastes like horsepiss. We drink it cold and quickly.

I'd drink something else if I felt that way. For warm weather, may I suggest a Tom Collins?
posted by tyllwin at 12:39 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


craft brewing industry is not a sort of cut-throat, sue everyone if it helps you make more money kind of industry

That's what we'd all like to think, but it's quickly becoming one of the more ruthless IP environments.

Plenty of brewers are pretty chill about it, but as craft brewing becomes a bigger industry, these stories are becoming more common. Just add this one to the list.
posted by pokermonk at 12:40 PM on May 23, 2013


Double reverse snobbery! No one was ready for it, what could possibly top that?

I used to only purposely drink beer that I hated, said I liked it out loud, then went on internet forums and complained about it. Now I argue about the merits of beers but don’t drink at all! I’m so far ahead of all you you’ll never catch up.
posted by bongo_x at 12:40 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


I love Belgian-style beer. It is quite possibly the best kind of beer on the planet. But sometimes I want to drink a kolsch, or an IPA, or a stout. There are some really great beers in those types out there. There are also plenty of really good American lagers and amber ales and the like.

Can't we embrace great beer in its infinite variety? Do we all need to sit around drinking Belgians out of tulips in order to be considered True Beer Snobs?


I find myself lamenting that Orthodoxy does not permit more than one wife.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:42 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


What's the best beer to drink in the shower?

(The best part of the canned beer revolution is the increase in shower beer varieties. I'll still drink Schaefer 3 drinking showers out of 5, but now I can have Sixpoint or Sierra Nevada or Harpoon or a whole host of others, too.)
posted by uncleozzy at 12:42 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm with Sara C.

I love beer. I love beer A LOT. I was lucky to have a lot of great beer places open up in Atlanta when I lived there and after I left. And despite my love for whatever fancypants beer I happen to try and like, the price point isn't there, say, for catching a show at The Earl. If I go home and visit friends and see a band, I'm going to want to get the most of my pocket money as I watch a band, talk to friends, etc. And fancypants won't cut it. But a few Miller High Life---my preferred evil shitty beer of choice when poor--will.

But if I'm with friends who really like good beer, we take that shit to Porter Beer Bar or the Brick Store. We sample new yummy beers; we eat delicious foods.

I think there's enough room to like both bad and really excellent beers. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.
posted by Kitteh at 12:44 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


The best part of the canned beer revolution is the increase in shower beer varieties.

What's wrong with drinking out of bottles in the shower? Just use a firm grip. Or a beer cozy.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:45 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think I'm going to try a Trappist Tripel Reverse Snobbery.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:46 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'll still drink Schaefer 3 drinking showers out of 5

Schaefer, the beer to drink when you're showering more than once.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:46 PM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]


What's wrong with drinking out of bottles in the shower?

Not that I don't sometimes do it, but I know I'm playing with fire. Or slippery glass. One break is all it takes to sort of ruin the shower beer.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:47 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I support West Sixth. Here's why.
posted by ohohcyte at 1:00 PM on May 23, 2013


I'm having a wonderful time imagining myself as an evil, mustache-twirling, monocled beer snob as I sit here drinking the Bud Light I found in the work fridge that no one here is laying claim to.

I like it better than #9! *thppppppppppbpbpbpbpb*
posted by invitapriore at 1:01 PM on May 23, 2013


"I find myself lamenting that Orthodoxy does not permit more than one wife."

A true beer snob laments that it even allows one.
posted by srboisvert at 1:07 PM on May 23, 2013


ohohcyte,

I just clicked on your link, and damn those logos look similar.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:08 PM on May 23, 2013


Really low bar to snobbery these days apparently.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:09 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I didn't really pay much attention to it before, and it may have been bad lighting in previous photos, but a cursory glance at the cans in ohohcyte's link immediately triggered my brain going, "Is that a new Magic Hat beer?"
posted by Kitteh at 1:09 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]


I just clicked on your link, and damn those logos look similar.

Yeah, in the shot of the 6-pack, I thought, if I saw that on a shelf from 10 feet away, no question I would think it was some new twist on #9. The thing is, you'll never see the logos next to each other to compare-and-contrast. Out-of-context, they're incredibly similar.
posted by uncleozzy at 1:10 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


Beer snobs are the worst. It's BEER. It tastes like horsepiss.

sir, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof - for us to accept your statement you must provide video of a horse pissing into a glass and you drinking immediately from the same glass

then we will accept your claim - we won't even make you drink a beer, too - after all, it's all the same to you, isn't it?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:23 PM on May 23, 2013


One of Minneapolis's many new craft breweries is 612Brew, and they also have a beer called 6. This 6 is named after a bus line (which happens to be the bus from home->work, so I'm very fond of the choice), and they feature that on the logo. Now that's a beer logo.

I'm not sure why anyone would copy Magic Hat's logos, I've always found them busy and unappealing. I do think trademark infringement is going to be easily proven here, even though I hate to side against the little guy (if this hasn't already been said, Magic Hat is owned by a larger parent corporation).
posted by mcstayinskool at 1:33 PM on May 23, 2013


If West Sixth continues to pursue this and it goes to trial, I predict that they will lose and lose badly. It is pretty clear on the face of it that the similarities of the logos is enough to create confusion in the marketplace, and that's really all that Magic Hat has to prove. I hope they know that, and they're just milking the story for some free publicity before they do the inevitable and change their design. And if their legal counsel is really telling them that Magic Hat's complaint is without merit, I hope they are smart enough to get a second opinion. Magic Hat may not have handled this situation in the most friendly and diplomatic fashion, but they absolutely do have a strong case. The longer this dispute drags on, the worse it will be for West Sixth.
posted by spilon at 1:33 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


"Looking at the pictures on the Consumerist page, I think this is an issue of trade dress. The law school case on trade dress is the Taco Cabana case. Refer to the appearance of Taco Cabana and Two Pesos. In that case, the Supreme Court held that Taco Cabana's restaurant design was distinctive and thus protected trademark."

Yeah, the best outcome for West Sixth is just to redesign their logo to be less of the Art Nouveau script and into something more distinct. I mean, Christ, aren't they worried that someone would accidentally mistake their beer for Magic Hat's?
posted by klangklangston at 1:38 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


sir, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof - for us to accept your statement you must provide video of a horse pissing into a glass and you drinking immediately from the same glass

then we will accept your claim - we won't even make you drink a beer, too - after all, it's all the same to you, isn't it?


I tried, but my horse is pee-shy. Get me a horse that can piss on camera and you're on.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:29 PM on May 23, 2013


Don't have Magic Hat in my area but that Southern Tier brew has been slipping in and that stuff is pretty much the weakest piss-water that has ever tried to call itself a microbrew. Makes Fat Tire taste like Bell's Two-Hearted Ale (now there's a real beer to bring on unexpected naptime).
posted by Ber at 3:31 PM on May 23, 2013


Which Southern Tier brew? I've had their IPA and double IPA here in the Beer Temple in Amsterdam and those were very moreish.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:34 PM on May 23, 2013


Yeah, Southern Tier makes quite a lot of different beers, including some really good stouts.
posted by armage at 4:04 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the Southern Tier 2xIPA is pretty great. I suspect Ber is talking about Phinn & Matt's, which is okay but pretty pedestrian, and which I have only seen on a shelf at one beer store, but might be the beer they distribute "abroad."
posted by uncleozzy at 4:04 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's the Fox News of craft beers.

Blue Moon.

What should someone who wants to drink a Magic Hat type beer choose instead?

New Belgium.

Or, what are the great beers to order in a dive with a small selection?

If there's one local draft, get that.

What's the best beer your average supermarket is going to carry?

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

What's the ideal "bring to a party of non-snobs" beer?

Geographically-proximal craft beer variety-pack that includes a seasonal. Or a sixer of Sam Adams Light.

(These choices probably sound more forceful than I intend--just trying to start the conversation.)
posted by box at 4:22 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


I agree with all those assessments, except for the fact that I've never had New Belgium before.
posted by Sara C. at 4:29 PM on May 23, 2013


Also Sam Adams is my equivalent to the people upthread who are all "NO REALLY MAGIC HAT IS THE WORST". Undrinkable horse piss. I'm sure there's nothing objectively wrong with it. They might even have a variety that I'd like. But ugggggghhhhh there are too many good beers to waste time learning to like Sam Adams.
posted by Sara C. at 4:30 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


So, how are West Sixth's beers?
posted by aquanaut at 4:54 PM on May 23, 2013


People hate beer snobs when they devote their time to running down Budweiser or Miller or (apparently) Magic Hat.

Personally, I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticize beers like Budweiser or Miller, for the same reasons that anyone would criticize mediocrity. That kind of snobbery certainly can be annoying, but it is not without value. Talking about Magic Hat like it's something you'd pour down the drain while holding your nose, on the other hand, strikes me as either a great exaggeration or a good example of snobbery gone too far.

Which Southern Tier brew? I've had their IPA and double IPA here in the Beer Temple in Amsterdam and those were very moreish.

I'm not a huge Southern Tier fan, but their Unearthly line of IPAs are pretty good. Well, the Unearthly and the Oak-Aged Unearthly, to be specific. I'd still take an Ithaca Flower Power over either of those, though.

What's the best beer your average supermarket is going to carry?

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

I would have said that even a year ago. Things are really changing, though. I discovered about six months ago that Whole Foods has a shockingly good beer section. Then just a couple of months ago, the local Stop and Shop started carrying things like Gulden Draak and La Fin Du Monde in 750ml bottles (not to mention the Unearthly IPA, although no sign yet of my beloved Flower Power). That blew my mind. The beer revolution is getting very close to mainstream, it would seem. I mean, I never expected to see Gulden Draak in the local S&S.
posted by Edgewise at 6:10 PM on May 23, 2013


I find Magic Hat undrinkable because of the yeast they misuse (or at least have in the past and now retain similar flavor profiles). I do think they have a point in this lawsuit, however, and if I saw the West Sixth logo in a bar my initial assumption would be that it's a new Magic Hat variety.
posted by mollweide at 6:11 PM on May 23, 2013


Whole Foods has...

Yeah, that's why I said "your average supermarket" and not "a supermarket with a really great beer selection". The Whole Foods in New York and LA have beer selections as good or better than specialty stores. I can't speak for the whole country, but when I say "your average supermarket" I'm not talking about Whole Foods.

My neighborhood supermarket in Brooklyn had lots of craft beers and rare imports, but I find that the suburban-style Ralph's and Von's in the LA area don't. I don't know if it's because BevMo has a big share of the market here for specialty beverages, or stores have less individual control over what to carry, or, I dunno, maybe the beer selection is smaller to make room for wine, but, yeah, it's a Sierra Nevada level selection for the most part. Though I have seen a lot of interesting California microbrews we didn't get on the East Coast, which I'm slowly working my way through. None of them are empirically Better Beer than something like Southern Tier, Fat Tire, Magic Hat, and the like, though.
posted by Sara C. at 6:46 PM on May 23, 2013


tyllwin: "Tom Collins"

Citron and tonic, baby! Where it is AT during hot weather.
posted by Samizdata at 6:52 PM on May 23, 2013


Suburban supermarkets in my neck of the woods often carry the one most popular example from local craft brewers. Unfortunately, the one most popular example is often as not the least interesting thing those brewers sell.
posted by box at 7:56 PM on May 23, 2013


Really Krinklyfig, apparently you didn't stop drinking for the same reasons I did. Frankly all of that stuff tasted like crap to me but I drank it anyway. There was no such thing as good tasting booze and now I don't drink. I find it interesting, bordering on hilarious that there's such a thing as a beer snob. I'm pretty sure they were just called the lower middle class back in the day.
posted by evilDoug at 9:15 PM on May 23, 2013


So, how are West Sixth's beers?

They are very good. As someone who happens to wander through Lexington fairly often, I guess I'll chime in.

The two sides to this story I see are as follows 1) Patent trolling is pretty good business in any industry and Magic Hat saw an opportunity early on. They have a history of this type of legal action (See the similar debate between Magic Hat and Georgetown Brewing in Seattle) and, going by that history, felt pretty confident they could quell this fairly quickly and quietly. It's really a shame that this is even an issue. 2) West Sixth is getting the kind of publicity that money can't buy. Even if they end up changing their logo (which seems like they were fine with all along), they win so long as this one does not go to court. The timing of the "No Magic Hat" campaign makes me believe there was a bit of trolling going on from both sides. The real "infringement" here is not the number on the logo but the "dingbat" star or "compass" which, when combined with the inverted logo, does have a very similar look on the West Sixth Amber Lager cans (note that those have the "6" in orange, not green). I, personally, am supportive of local businesses and hope West Sixth comes out on top in this. That being said, I believe if this were to go to court West Sixth would probably lose unless they can pass the blame to Cricket Press who they claim designed the logo.
posted by J.W. at 9:26 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


Patent trolling is pretty good business in any industry

This isn't patent trolling. It's trademark protection. The way the system is set up, brands have to stay vigilant about protecting their trademarks, lest they become diluted.

And Magic Hat isn't being "predatory" in the case of Georgetown Brewing, either. I personally think that logo looks less like the #9 logo than the West Sixth logo does, but still, you've got the number nine in a circle, and well, if they let this one slide, sooner or later they lose their trademark on the #9 packaging. I guess we can debate about whether Magic Hat ought to be able to trademark the #9 design, but in a world where this is allowed, and #9 is trademarked, they (unfortunately in my opinion) have a responsibility to enforce their trademark.

Also, again, you better believe that if either West Sixth or Georgetown Brewing had trademarked their logos before Magic Hat was around, those companies would be suing the pants off Magic Hat.
posted by Sara C. at 9:51 PM on May 23, 2013 [4 favorites]


What's the ideal "bring to a party of non-snobs" beer?

Geographically-proximal craft beer variety-pack that includes a seasonal. Or a sixer of Sam Adams Light.


The first is more something you'd bring as a present to the host, rather than as something to be drunk during the party, especially since a lot of craft beer is not particularly suited to drink as a session beer. I'd bring a good pilsner instead, something that does well what Budweiser or Miller do badly.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:18 AM on May 24, 2013


Ugh. When did ad agency "professionals" decide to make beer? This same thing is happening in western Canada. It's terribly mediocre.
posted by converge at 12:53 AM on May 24, 2013


The logos don't look that similar at all. Magic hat can fuck themselves.
This is a perfectly legitimate lawsuit for Magic Hat to initiate.
You can sue anyone for anything. Every lawsuit is "legitimate"
It's not really fair for West Sixth to whine about the fact that they're being sued. If you're so sure it's not trademark infringement, gather your evidence and prove it. This is how the legal system works.
Are you out of your mind? Being sued sucks ass. Do you think defending yourself in court is free? You can tie someone up in litigation for years, with them having no recourse whatsoever, and if you win, guess what? In most cases that money is permanently down the drain either way. If a rich litigant decides they want to spend a ton of money fucking over someone who doesn't using the legal system they're free to do it.
But they're not. They're suing a brewery in Kentucky for trademark infringement, because said brewery has a logo that looks a hell of a lot like the (ubiquitous in the US) Magic Hat logo. Which is why trademark infringement lawsuits exist.
Ubiquitous? I've never even heard of this company and I'm sure as hell not going to ever buy their shit now.
Well, it is for the jury to decide because a jury trial was demanded in the complaint.
Do Juries in these cases make more money then they do in, say, criminal trials? It seems insane to me that people could just be, essentially, drafted and forced by law to put in a lot of work to settle a dispute between two random companies with money to burn. If the lawyers are making a ton of money arguing the case it seems like the Juries should make money as well.
posted by delmoi at 3:08 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


I always thought that #9 was for the song Love potion number nine
in the same vein as "Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker" lowering inhibitions to engage in possibly regrettable sexual activity way.

I like Magic Hat, well I liked them back when they still made the beers that I enjoyed Namely Heart of Darkness and their humdinger series. I can definitely taste the ringwood yeast strains that they use in all of their beers now though and sometimes I want a different yeast profile. All in all pretty much like all beers good, but if theres something else I'll be sure to have that also.
posted by koolkat at 5:31 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


delmoi: "The logos don't look that similar at all. Magic hat can fuck themselves. "

Well, there have been maybe a dozen people in this thread who thought they did look similar. I don't think making the bald assertion that they don't proves very much.

As mentioned, the standard is creating "likelihood of confusion," taking into account a number of factors like being in the same industry. IANAL, but it seems there a number of points of similarity that would result in concluding there is a reasonable likelihood of these two being confused.

Ubiquitous? I've never even heard of this company and I'm sure as hell not going to ever buy their shit now.

Okay. But they appear to be the number 8 US craft brewery by volume. They're pretty well known.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:57 AM on May 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


You can sue anyone for anything. Every lawsuit is "legitimate"

One wonders why the motion to dismiss exists, in that case.

Do Juries in these cases make more money then they do in, say, criminal trials?

Generally, a juror's rate of pay does not depend on the nature of the lawsuit at issue in the trial.
posted by Tanizaki at 6:52 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also Sam Adams is my equivalent to the people upthread who are all "NO REALLY MAGIC HAT IS THE WORST".

Though I have to say when I am at a family cookout and the vast majority of the beer is Silver Bullet and Miller or Bud Light and then I see a couple of Sam Adams floating in the ice tub too I am very relieved because otherwise I would be driven to drink supermarket brand generic cola or root beer.
posted by aught at 6:54 AM on May 24, 2013


Yeah, I just don't like Sam Adams at all. It reminds me of Heineken in that it's an allegedly decent-ish beer that just tastes weirdly off to me.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:46 AM on May 24, 2013


What's the ideal "bring to a party of non-snobs" beer?

From what I've seen in trends over the past 5 years, Sierra Nevada owns the U.S. for default "craft" beer. ... nope, still Sam Adams.

Hate to say it, but for non-beer "enthusiasts" (depending on class signifiers, of course) you are better off getting a known quality domestic (my choice is Old Milwaukee) or running through the top of that list linked above, because all anyone cares about is whether they've heard of the beer or not.

Sam Adams, Sierra, New Belgium will all be welcomed. Bring a Pliny or Stone if you want to edumacate or show off. People have heard of them by now.

It reminds me of Heineken in that it's an allegedly decent-ish beer that just tastes weirdly off to me.

Yeah, not to hate, but I'd take the Miller over the Sam Adams. And I'm probably biased by Blue Velvet, but I'd take the Sam Adams over the Heineken. Heineken, man. Luckily for me, I live in California, which is awash in wonderful, if expensive, beer.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:06 AM on May 24, 2013


And while we're on the subject of beer and Kentucky ... Sergio's World Beers! it's been plugged here once or twice before on Ask, I think, but it is truly a unique beer spot. World-class beers plus reheated frozen jalapeno poppers in a hospital-cafe-style setting within a warehouse ...

He's definitely got a Belgian fetish, but I think he's got one mini-fridge in the back all filled with white Japanese beer. And the draft list! And the master list: 1,417 beers for sale in a sortable table! Where's the export!

posted by mrgrimm at 8:16 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I just don't like Sam Adams at all. It reminds me of Heineken in that it's an allegedly decent-ish beer that just tastes weirdly off to me.

I don't love Sam Adams, but I'm fine with it, and I like a number of their seasonals,(especially the Old Fezziwig Ale of which there is entirely too little in the variety pack). Heineken, though, is really incredibly overrated. It's expensive and basically flavorless, except when it tastes skunked. Plus, you get to support a large multinational brewery. What's not to love?

I also have trouble judging beers objectively because I find them so context specific. Heineken makes a pretty mediocre to bad beer for the Bahamas market called Kalik that I had around four times when I was there on vacation. Three times it was terrible, but once, when the breeze was right and the conch was really good? That beer was fantastic. I couldn't really review it on the basis of "find the right context and you'll love it," but I can't say I didn't like that beer, because I really did.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:36 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


"My neighborhood supermarket in Brooklyn had lots of craft beers and rare imports, but I find that the suburban-style Ralph's and Von's in the LA area don't. I don't know if it's because BevMo has a big share of the market here for specialty beverages, or stores have less individual control over what to carry, or, I dunno, maybe the beer selection is smaller to make room for wine, but, yeah, it's a Sierra Nevada level selection for the most part. Though I have seen a lot of interesting California microbrews we didn't get on the East Coast, which I'm slowly working my way through. None of them are empirically Better Beer than something like Southern Tier, Fat Tire, Magic Hat, and the like, though."

Von's carries Rogue, Stone, Sierra Nevada, New Belgium and Red Hook (along with a bunch of other Cal. brewers). Right now, we're in a Red Hook phase at the house.
posted by klangklangston at 8:47 AM on May 24, 2013


Grimm: Sergio's is my regular beer spot, and it's fucking great. Since leaving Louisville, I make the 2 hour return trip regularly just to hit Sergio's. Easy to imagine that it's truly the best beer place in the world.

I'm writing this from Lexington KY, and let me just say that I loathe West Sixth. Took a friend from out of town to their spot recently, and he hated it so much (atmosphere and clientele, mostly, but also the beer) that we left after maybe 4 minutes.

Also, from the first time I saw the West Sixth logo, I was confused about their relationship with Magic Hat.
posted by broadway bill at 9:15 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


What's the best beer your average supermarket is going to carry?

something by bell's, founder's or arcadia - living in sw michigan has its advantages
posted by pyramid termite at 9:28 AM on May 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


Von's carries Rogue, Stone, Sierra Nevada, New Belgium and Red Hook (along with a bunch of other Cal. brewers). Right now, we're in a Red Hook phase at the house.

Yeah, those are all "Sierra Nevada" caliber beers. Huge accessible craft breweries easy to find all over the country. Nothing crazy obscure or adventurous or expensive. Though, yeah, I typically pick Rogue or Stone over S.N. depending on what I'm in the mood for.

Hate to say it, but for non-beer "enthusiasts" (depending on class signifiers, of course) you are better off getting a known quality domestic (my choice is Old Milwaukee) or running through the top of that list linked above, because all anyone cares about is whether they've heard of the beer or not.

Wow, I apparently run in a very Beer Snob crowd. I tend to bring something in the "accessible American craft ale" world or a local-ish lager like Yuengling or Gennessee and I've never felt like the beer I bring to parties is unpopular. (Though it now occurs to me how silly it is to even worry about this.) My main fear at parties is that I'm going to be in a crowd of Blue Moon drinkers. Not Blue Moon-ist, I just don't really like wheat beers much. It's an oddly specific type of beer to be so ubiquitous among a certain kind of liberal college educated urban crowd.

Import Confession: I'm a sucker for Red Stripe. I know it's not actually good, and that I only like it because the weird little bottles make me nostalgic for the 90's when my parents were into reggae and scuba diving. But, I mean, it's better than Heineken, Corona, or Stella, right?

(Oh, ha, remember like 10-15 years ago when Stella Artois was, like, THE cool beer? Things have really come a long way.)
posted by Sara C. at 9:31 AM on May 24, 2013


(Oh, ha, remember like 10-15 years ago when Stella Artois was, like, THE cool beer? Things have really come a long way.)

My favourite expression to describe the repercussions of a night out on Stella is: "Committing Stellacide".
posted by ob at 10:13 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


(Oh, ha, remember like 10-15 years ago when Stella Artois was, like, THE cool beer? Things have really come a long way.)

My wife and I are planning a party, and I was told that if her coworker Gareth came we would have to make sure to pick up Stella because Gareth really, really liked Stella.

I can't imagine being so associated with a single beer that my presence meant that hosts were expected to stock it, but if I were, it would emphatically not be Stella.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:17 AM on May 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


I have a friend who doesn't drink but whenever she comes over to our place she brings a six-pack of Stella just for my wife and me. It's such a kind gesture but
posted by shakespeherian at 10:21 AM on May 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


"Yeah, those are all "Sierra Nevada" caliber beers. Huge accessible craft breweries easy to find all over the country. Nothing crazy obscure or adventurous or expensive. Though, yeah, I typically pick Rogue or Stone over S.N. depending on what I'm in the mood for. "

Von's also has Ballast Point, Laguinitas, Golden Road, Mission, Firestone, Third Coast and a handful of others without East Coast distribution. They've got a decent mid-level selection. Jon's has crazy Slavic beers.
posted by klangklangston at 10:28 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Way back, just over a decade ago, there was no Stella in Michigan, and a buddy came back from an internship in England just singing its praises like Stella invented blowjobs or something — the "perfect Belgian beer." So, my brother and I end up in some tiny village in Belgium on a train change, and hustle ass down to the pub so that we can try this amazing beer. I don't think I've ever worked so hard for so little — we nearly missed our train to have this watery light beer. ;_;
posted by klangklangston at 10:31 AM on May 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh god, my wife's uncle won't drink any beer except Stella, the result of which is that every Christmas we wind up with a gift-wrapped 750mL bottle of it. Last year's is still in the fridge.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:42 AM on May 24, 2013


It's worth noting that Magic Hat may be "big" now, but it was one of the first up-and-coming craft breweries ten years ago here in the Northeast. There was a time when you could buy Magic Hat #9 in Burlington area gas stations and supermarkets, but Sam Adams had yet to make it up I-89 (I remember it being a treat for my dad to buy it when we were in NH). Along with Boston Beer Company, they opened to door to craft beers for a lot of normal folks who had only had Bud, Molson, and maybe a Heineken. I think they helped open the door for a lot of microbreweries like West Sixth.

I'm not a fan of Magic Hat's flagship #9, but Circus Boy is a heffeweisen and Wacko (which has added beet juice, oddly) is a nice change of pace. Both are much much better on tap. (Which reminds me, Boston - we should have another People's Republic meetup sometime.)

...it's going cheap at a bar I happen to be at in Vermont, sure, I'll drink the fuck out of it.

On that note, I enjoyed Switchback last time I was in Burlington. Nice clean lager.
posted by maryr at 7:23 PM on May 24, 2013


Ah, the reverse-snob has arrived! The anti-hipster can't be far behind.

Oh, this song? Yeah, it's really old. This band's really famous, you've probably heard of them.

(Oh my gosh. Reverse hipsters explain the resurgence of Johnny Cash. *mind blown*)
posted by maryr at 7:25 PM on May 24, 2013


Yeah, the Southern Tier 2xIPA is pretty great. I suspect Ber is talking about Phinn & Matt's, which is okay but pretty pedestrian, and which I have only seen on a shelf at one beer store, but might be the beer they distribute "abroad."

The offenders were indeed Phinn & Matt's, and the IPA. Not the 2X. Both utterly bland and forgettable. Now that craft beer has established its niche, I think it is time that some brewers abandon tepid flagship entry labels. All they do is make micro drinkers think their product is mediocre and they'll move on.
posted by Ber at 7:32 PM on May 24, 2013


Looks like they've settled.
To the extent West Sixth in any way represented that Magic Hat filed a frivolous lawsuit, that Magic Hat initiated litigation improperly, that Magic Hat was unresponsive in negotiating a resolution, that Cerveceria Costa Rica was itself involved in the dispute or its resolution, that Magic Hat claimed ownership of the numeral 6, that Magic Hat sued West Sixth after West Sixth had already acceded to its demands, that Magic Hat has no Vermont presence, or that Magic Hat sought to recover for or enjoin West Sixth from truthful public statements, such representations are retracted. West Sixth regrets that it in any manner communicated any inaccuracies, and hereby corrects those errors.

posted by uncleozzy at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2013


And, as I expected, the "compass" or "Dingbat Star" has already been removed from the West Sixth logo.
posted by J.W. at 11:31 AM on June 6, 2013


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