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The races of Star Trek.
June 12, 2013 11:44 AM   Subscribe

A fanfic explanation for a certain continuity issue in the new Star Trek movie. It's amusing, and it checks out.
posted by Pronoiac (112 comments total) 24 users marked this as a favorite

 
Fascinating.
posted by Artw at 11:47 AM on June 12, 2013 [13 favorites]


Interesting.
posted by KHAAAN! at 11:56 AM on June 12, 2013 [27 favorites]


I haven't yet watched the new movie.
Is this accurate to it? Is this more of an insert to explain what was missing in the movie? Or is this more like Star Wreck? ( I read all those back in the day.)
posted by QueerAngel28 at 11:56 AM on June 12, 2013


Still doesn't fix all the problems with the movie. *nerdsigh*
posted by Eideteker at 11:57 AM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I am still trying to wrap my head around how Space Seed fits into the timeline--STID ends just as Enterprise's 5 year mission starts, and Space Seed wasn't that far into the mission, so shouldn't the TOS Kirk/Spock have been like, Oh, whoa, here's Khan!

Fun link though!
posted by MoonOrb at 11:58 AM on June 12, 2013


Too soon. The hate I have for that movie demands a Romney 47% humiliation. Not endearing Spock/Spock banter (although it was well done).
posted by angrycat at 12:08 PM on June 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


MoonOrb, the reason you're having problems is the fact that in JJTrek, the timeline's already been branched, way back at the point in the first movie when Kirk was born in space and not Kansas. From that point on, events in the altered timeline may unfold on a different schedule than how things played out in the original.

In this case, in the original, Starfleet didn't stumble upon a Eugenics War sleeper ship until into the 5 year mission. In JJTrek, certain elements of Starfleet, upset at having their butts handed to them by time displaced Romulans, started scouting for resources they could use to bolster their military posture, and because of this, came across the sleeper ship prior to the 5 year mission.
posted by radwolf76 at 12:08 PM on June 12, 2013 [6 favorites]


The first guy's name is Spock, dammit. You can't go changing it to Spock Prime just because some other guy showed up to claim the name. Heck, a mathematician would claim that Spock Prime is the right name for the second guy. Save Spock Double-Prime for the inevitable re-reboot.

Good explanation of Khan though.
posted by rlk at 12:09 PM on June 12, 2013 [6 favorites]


Does young Spock give old Spock a quick call every time he has a problem? "Hey, old me, I am considering buying an extended warranty on a new viewscreen. In your timeline, did the viewscreen break within 3 years?"
posted by AndrewStephens at 12:09 PM on June 12, 2013 [33 favorites]


"Hey, old me, I am considering buying an extended warranty on a new viewscreen. In your timeline, did the viewscreen break within 3 years?"

"I have always sworn not to disrupt your timeline -- to let you discover this universe for yourself." (gravitas-laden sigh) "That said... Don't let that guy at Best Buy talk you into buying a Magnavox. Oh, also, don't get that box of Sugar Babies at the CVS next door. One of them gets stuck in your teeth. Also, get a flyswatter, 'cause later today, a fly gets into your apartment and it's gonna be SUPER annoying"
posted by Greg Nog at 12:15 PM on June 12, 2013 [57 favorites]


"also try finding some whales"
posted by brilliantmistake at 12:20 PM on June 12, 2013 [29 favorites]


seems legit.

Top-notch retkhanning.

I like how the kahntainers now echo Moon, much as Oblivion simply stole from Moon.

Now if only we could get an in-universe explantion for the abuse of a tri-d chess set.
posted by mwhybark at 12:22 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm not clear on what this story's "theory" is. That all the tubes were labeled with the (weakly encrypted) name "Khan Noonien Singh" as a sort of pre-emptive I-am-Spartacus defense? If that's the case, why also include the (strongly encrypted) real name of each occupant? Why label the tubes with names at all?

Furthermore, this explanation doesn't square with the established fact that, when the TOS Enterprise crew beamed aboard the Botany Bay, Khan's tube began to automatically wake him up, from which they were able to conclude he must be the leader. Why would it be programmed to do that if they wanted to conceal which sleeper was Khan? And why would Khan think he'd be able to hide his identity, anyway? If you ruled a sizable fraction of the Earth, wouldn't you assume your name and face would be as recognizable as Napleon's, Hitler's, or Stalin's, even centuries later?
posted by The Tensor at 12:24 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


They cut away before the part where Spock Classic told NuSpock how the original timeline dealt with him, but given how events turned out, I have to conclude that Classic said "When he asks you to lower the shields so he can beam over the photon torpedo like device that he wants, let him!" and Nu would be all "Device? As in singular? We've got 72."
posted by radwolf76 at 12:28 PM on June 12, 2013


Y'know, you could go your whole life without hearing the phrase "a sort of pre-emptive I-am-Spartacus defense". I feel privileged to have been here today.
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:30 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


To borrow a comment I've made elsewhere, I hope that it doesn't take long for this timeline to be restored to the original. I feel like a pretty decent way to do this would be to say that this rebooted timeline is actually the same as the "evil Federation" which I believe was in the original series as well as a few books. This would set things up for a movie in the Enterprise B or C timeline. It would be cool to have a movie with Rachel Garret as the captain of the Enterprise.
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:30 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


If you ruled a sizable fraction of the Earth, wouldn't you assume your name and face would be as recognizable as Napleon's, Hitler's, or Stalin's, even centuries later?

Yeah, that was part of why, after seeing the movie, I thought they shoulda made some reference to Khan's face having been plastic-surgerized.

Although actually, I'd love to see a modern-day Tom Clancy-type movie with a guy who looks like Hitler the entire time, played for mystery. Forelock and little moustache and everything.

Jack Ryan: Who are you REALLY?

Mystery Man: Very well... I shall tell you. I am Adolf Hitler, ruler of the German Nazis!

Jack Ryan: WHAT????

Mystery Man: That's right! Leader of the evil Germans in the 1940s, frozen for decades in cryostasis!

Jack Ryan: That's bad!

Mystery Man: You see, "John Harrison" is not my real name at all! It was HITLERRRRRR

Jack Ryan: Aw, geez! (smacks forehead)
posted by Greg Nog at 12:31 PM on June 12, 2013 [16 favorites]


I love nerds. Not the candy; the people.
posted by Mojojojo at 12:36 PM on June 12, 2013


"also try finding some whales"

You stole my joke!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 12:36 PM on June 12, 2013


They never really seem to come up with any interesting future cultural history. If only someone had said "remember back in the [21]80s when you could first get one of those instaplast jobs at the mall and for a while all the guys looked like Khan?"
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:37 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


If you ruled a sizable fraction of the Earth, wouldn't you assume your name and face would be as recognizable as Napleon's, Hitler's, or Stalin's, even centuries later?

The 90s were a dark, confusing time.
posted by Artw at 12:41 PM on June 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


I love fanfic so much. And I love Spock/Spock snark in particular.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:42 PM on June 12, 2013


I haven't seen the new Star Trek film yet. Can someone give me a spoiler-free... D'OH!!
posted by panboi at 12:42 PM on June 12, 2013


Khan is now Star Trek's Spartacus.

You know, it still holds together better than that most recent movie. Even without the 10-page slash scene.
posted by qcubed at 12:43 PM on June 12, 2013


You know what else holds together? The Wrath of Khan. Shatner is great in it, Nemoy is great in it, Kirstie Alley is in it, and Shatner does such a great job of being completely destroyed emotionally at the end I almost cried. People make fun of his acting, but I think he knew exactly what he was doing. It's really powerful stuff.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 12:49 PM on June 12, 2013 [24 favorites]


Does young Spock give old Spock a quick call every time he has a problem?

This is the trend the two movies have set. The next one should be called A Call With Spock.

Regarding "wouldn't you assume your name and face would be as recognizable", The Eugenics Wars books (albeit non-canon) depict Khan and the other Augments as ruling other countries from behind the scenes through puppet rulers. The Eugenics Wars were a series of regional conflicts and civil wars that the general populace did not realize were part of a larger effort. Most people never heard of Khan.

I though the idea of thawing out a 300-year old guy to design military weapons was a great idea by Starfleet. Maybe we can resurrect Isaac Newton to design high-tech consumer devices.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:50 PM on June 12, 2013 [10 favorites]


And there is like maybe four minutes of fist-fighting total. It's a movie about strategy, not brute force, and the better strategist wins.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 12:50 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's a pity his name doesn't turn up in the standard Star Trek litany of failed megalomaniac leaders, as exemplified in Whom Gods Destroy:
GARTH: On your knees before me! All the others before me have failed. Alexander, Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, Li Kwan, Krotus! All of them are dust! But I will triumph! I will make the ultimate conquest!
It would have cut down on the guesswork.
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:51 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


If you ruled a sizable fraction of the Earth, wouldn't you assume your name and face would be as recognizable as Napleon's, Hitler's, or Stalin's, even centuries later?


You are all giving Damon Lindelhof way too much credit. He doesn't care about your backstory, or continuity, or canon. His process goes more like this:


Timewarp- check

Random piece of canon he heard about one time- check

Wacky hi-jinks- check

Big fistfight- check

Giant robot spider starship- check


Seriously- this is how you go from one of the most compelling villains in science fiction to a slap-fight with Sherlock Holmes on steroids. This is how you re-introduce Klingons into the series, and then don't use them for anything. This is how you take a naval combat scene that rivals Das Boot for tension, and make it into a punch-up on not one, but two identical hoverbarges. This is how you take a death scene as good as Roy Batty's, and turn it into DudeBro saves everybody. Need a way to get yourself out of the corner you've painted yourself into? Umm- McCoy cures death. DONE.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:03 PM on June 12, 2013 [36 favorites]


You stole my joke!

Why? How do we know he didn't invent the thing?
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:05 PM on June 12, 2013 [10 favorites]


this is how you go from one of the most compelling villains in science fiction to a slap-fight with Sherlock Holmes on steroids.

The scene is much improved by thinking about this from Sherlock:
HOLMES: Punch me in the face.
WATSON: Punch you?
HOLMES: Yes, punch me, in the face. Didn't you hear me?
WATSON: I always hear "punch me in the face" when you're speaking, but it's usually subtext.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:09 PM on June 12, 2013 [14 favorites]


NuTrek is building up a Raiders style collection of forbidden plot-breaking technologies such as blood that can resurrect the dead and a boombox that means you never need a starship.
posted by Artw at 1:11 PM on June 12, 2013 [8 favorites]


I applaud the effort, but you probably need to do this for every second of Star Trek Into Darkness. The movie really doesn't stand up to analysis, even for a moment. And it seems to know that. Throughout the film the viewers and protagonists get bombarded with information and it's just impossible to start thinking about how incoherent it all is. It's a fun ride, mind you. This is my experience of the movie:

SPOCK: We have to press the button or everything will explode! [ME: Yes, press that button!]
KIRK: I'll run to press the button! [ME: Run, Kirk! Press the button!]
KHAN: I will make you suffer like the puppies I just drowned! [ME: Boo! Hiss! Bad man!]
KIRK: I have pressed the button [ME: Yay! He pressed that button! Wait... why did he have to press that button again? And why did he need to run across the starship to press a button? Don't they have remote controls in the future?]
SCOTTY: Now, cap'n, you have to press a completely different button! [ME: Oh no! Another button! Run, Kirk!]
KIRK: I will run to press that button! [ME: Wait, what's this button for?]
KHAN: I will destroy your family, much like Starfleet destroyed my family, who suffered, much like I will make your family suffer. [ME: Boo! Hiss! Bad, sexy, pasty man! And boo Starfleet!]
KIRK: Oh no, the button just blew up!
SPOCK: Weird old me told sexy young me that you have to press another button somewhere else. [ME: Huzzah Future Spock! Oh hey, I made a pun!]
KIRK: I have to press another button somewhere else! [ME: Run, Kirk! Press that button!]

Go to beginning.
posted by Kattullus at 1:20 PM on June 12, 2013 [16 favorites]


Why? How do we know he didn't invent the thing?

Here's another problem with NuTrek (which I enjoy the hell out of, btw): In Star Trek IV, Kirk and the gang spend weeks fucking around 1980s San Francisco, and come back to a future that is exactly as they left it, despite Bones curing that woman's kidney failure with a pill, the invention of transparent aluminum (which Wikipedia tells me is retconned into a Red Queen's Race in the novelization, but still), and stealing Doctor Taylor to the future. Why didn't that change the future more drastically than Eric Bana did?
posted by Elementary Penguin at 1:28 PM on June 12, 2013 [6 favorites]


There is the theory of the Moebius...
posted by Artw at 1:32 PM on June 12, 2013


Totally worth it for the end notes.
posted by sawdustbear at 1:33 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The original post link makes a nice companion to the new Film Crit Hulk piece: Film Crit Hulk Smash - THE AGE OF THE CONVOLUTED BLOCKBUSTER.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:35 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Why didn't that change the future more drastically than Eric Bana did?

Eric Bana DESTROYED AN ENTIRE PLANET. And killed Spock's mom. He killed Kirk's father. He altered the history of Star Fleet.

Come on!

Two whales, a doctor, and some transparent aluminum? Who cares? So what?

Are you going to complain that T'pol gave us Velcro before we were ready for it? And that didn't seem to change much. (Or did it? bum bum bummmmmmmmm)
posted by MoxieProxy at 1:36 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


"Get a life, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it's just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you're dressed! You've turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a colossal waste of time!

I mean, how old are you people? What have you done with yourselves?"
posted by wrnealis at 1:41 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I went to see the film with mwhybark. We both turned up in Trek T-shirts, but only he was carrying the Starfleet Technical Manual under his arm.
posted by Artw at 1:43 PM on June 12, 2013 [7 favorites]


All I have to say about the new Star Trek film is COLD FUSION IS NOT COLD.
posted by New England Cultist at 1:44 PM on June 12, 2013 [8 favorites]


In NuTrek that is a pretty minor point.
posted by Artw at 1:46 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Was there every an explanation about those missiles? A huge deal was made about them and then they were forgotten.
posted by Tanizaki at 1:49 PM on June 12, 2013


Nice touch: in Space Seed they make a big deal about there being seventy-two sleepers.
posted by Artw at 1:51 PM on June 12, 2013


By Grapthar's Hammer... what a theory...
posted by panboi at 1:55 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


One word: Lindelof.

I'm not going to watch this movie, or any other movie associated with that jackass, because it won't be fun. And I don't even really like Star Trek.
posted by Mars Saxman at 2:10 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The fact that I am only a very, very casual Star Trek thing is apparently what allowed me to enjoy this movie.
posted by MoonOrb at 2:12 PM on June 12, 2013


I'm not going to watch this movie, or any other movie associated with that jackass, because it won't be fun.

I'm dithering about seeing it because 1) I'm still holding a grudge over S6 of LOST, and 2) I'm afraid it will be fun and then I'll be disgusted with myself afterward.
posted by aught at 2:19 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


There were 85, 13 died when their tubes malfunctioned. 72 survivors, 35 women. (Just watched Space Seed yesterday, not absolutely sure on the number of women because I was kind of weirded out by the way Scotty chose to report that fact. Although Kirk probably asked him to count, because Kirk.)
posted by BeeDo at 2:21 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm dithering about seeing it because 1) I'm still holding a grudge over S6 of LOST, and 2) I'm afraid it will be fun and then I'll be disgusted with myself afterward.


Well, it looks great, and some of the banter is entertaining, and Karl Urban does a very good Bones, but you're seriously going to want to punch yourself in the face by about the 1:20 mark.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:21 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Man i totally missed "new" and thought this was going to explain why Klingons look different in TNG from TOS. There was that one epi of TNG where they went back in time or something and kept the original Klingon makeup and the crew all looks at Worf and he says "don't ask."
posted by sio42 at 2:23 PM on June 12, 2013


I am a big Star Trek fan. I enjoyed this movie by pretending it was written by children, directed by someone whose last gig was two seasons of "To Catch a Local Predator," yet with the whole shebang acted by real pros.
posted by zippy at 2:23 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also this movie was waaaay better than the last new star trek. I would actually watch it again. I loved all the throwbacks to the first two star trek movies and the over the top acting that was so TOS. It's like it was just making fun of itself in a good way.

Maybe i was just in a bad mood when i saw the first new one, but i dont recall liking it much. I was skipping with joy after this one, it was just so fun!!! (also, so many sexy nerdy men!!!!)
posted by sio42 at 2:26 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


A flicker of an almost smirk appeared on Spock's lips.

FAAAAAAAANFIIIIIIIIC!
posted by DaDaDaDave at 2:32 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


All I have to say about the new Star Trek film is COLD FUSION IS NOT COLD.

grabs side of head, tries to remember to breathe deeply before I stroke out

Cold fusion is not cold, but neither is it fusion. Cold fusion is not a real fucking thing. It is entirely possible that, by the 23rd century, the term means something entirely different, since the previous meaning of the term is in fact meaningless because it. is. not. a. real. fucking. thing.

Seriously.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:33 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I enjoyed NuTrek a lot, I just don't really think of it as Trek.
posted by Artw at 2:34 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Cold fusion is not cold, but neither is it fusion. Cold fusion is not a real fucking thing. It is entirely possible that, by the 23rd century, the term means something entirely different, since the previous meaning of the term is in fact meaningless because it. is. not. a. real. fucking. thing.

You know they use it to stop a volcano going off by "freezing" the top layer of lava, right?
posted by Artw at 2:35 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


All I have to say about the new Star Trek film is COLD FUSION IS NOT COLD.

Well clearly it will be in the future
posted by MoxieProxy at 2:37 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm still holding a grudge over S6 of LOST

O/T, I know, but of course you are. Of course you SHOULD. It was an insult to an unwavering group of fans who followed and defended what could've been (mostly was??) an amazing, groundbreaking show. There were so many ways LOST could've ended without flat-out pissing on its fans.

Yes, I'm holding that grudge with you, and I'm not letting go.
posted by MoxieProxy at 2:41 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Called it!
posted by Katemonkey at 2:45 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Someone please troll Lindelof into writing and executive producing Alien vs Kirk. i would pay money to see the resulting schlockfest of the Federation, hampered by the Prime Directive, watching helplessly as some planet gets overrun by xenomorphs, only to have Kirk come down to kick ass and teleport a giant rock monster on top of the Alien Queen.

ZOMG, xenomorph tribbles would be soooo cuuuuuute
posted by zippy at 2:46 PM on June 12, 2013


Man i totally missed "new" and thought this was going to explain why Klingons look different in TNG from TOS.

Oddly enough, that's tangentially related to Khan as well.
posted by radwolf76 at 2:49 PM on June 12, 2013


I am in a sense retconning my own Star Trek fandom in my head by thinking of these characters and their universe as just cultural archetypes at this point. I mean, have you seen how many different versions of Robin Hood there were?

It also helps that they have made a point of saying this is a different timeline.

The Lord of the Rings movies on the other hand? Peter Jackson is dead to me.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:51 PM on June 12, 2013


I'll forgive him those, since LotR is tedious and bad anyway. Making The Hobbit an adjunct to his LotR movies? Unforgivable.
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on June 12, 2013


Art, I might have to challenge you to a Warhammer duel for that.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:55 PM on June 12, 2013


Relevant to my previous comment: what happens if a facehugger meets a tribble? Also, here's a Federation officer taunting an alien, thoughts on the Enterprise (TNG) vs a xenomorph (or would you prefer TOS?), and finally, a recipe for roasted tribbles.
posted by zippy at 2:55 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Warhammer setting also being superior to LotR, of course.
posted by Artw at 2:56 PM on June 12, 2013


Phasers. At dawn. Planet of your choice.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:57 PM on June 12, 2013


The Time Planet, obvs.
posted by Artw at 3:03 PM on June 12, 2013


here's a Federation officer taunting an alien

The best part of that is that the xenomorph has a Futurama brain parasite on its head.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:29 PM on June 12, 2013


I like to think that the immortal tribble will become like furry grey goo and destroy the whole timeline.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:43 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Immortal Kirk probably replicates faster.
posted by Artw at 3:54 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I guess that the super blood means that new-Kirk and new-Carol Marcus's son is going to be some kind of beautiful ubermensch. Maybe he will invent a version of genesis that works as intended? This had better not be the plot of the next movie...
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:00 PM on June 12, 2013


Well, since Kirk is alive again, we don't need Star Trek III anymore. So either they do the whales next or we skip to Star Trek V and meet Crummy VFX God.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:03 PM on June 12, 2013


Do we still have a Sybok?
posted by Artw at 4:10 PM on June 12, 2013


We'll soon find out!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:11 PM on June 12, 2013


I refuse to read this on general principle. 'Continuity' and 'canon' kill fiction. What matters is telling interesting stories, not whether the turbolift matches up between movies (an actual complaint Plinkett had with one ST movie).
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:12 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


I hadn't remembered that I had a crush on William Shatner until I rewatched WoK recently, and whoever said above his state of despair was really well done is right on.

StiD, I kinda wanted Kirk and Spock to get it on. Because they are still in flirty territory. As opposed to the deep love okay going to go do something else now
posted by angrycat at 4:13 PM on June 12, 2013


I'm afraid it will be fun and then I'll be disgusted with myself afterward.

I saw it. It WAS fun, and I WAS disgusted with myself afterwards. But only after reading several critiques that made me go "oh, right, how the hell did I miss THAT gaping plothole?"
posted by chrominance at 4:15 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, if I remember the books I read a few years ago, the Borg probably don't exist in this new universe, which is good.

The idea of canon in Star Trek is comical on its face. Once you introduce casual time travel and beings like Q, who cares? Literally anything is possible. All of this might be Wesley Crusher's fever dream.
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:16 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


One thing this piece of fanfic taught me is that there is still Canadian Thanksgiving in the future.
posted by Metro Gnome at 4:26 PM on June 12, 2013


It's fun and pretty much vaporizes the moment you think about any of it, like the first one.
posted by Artw at 4:29 PM on June 12, 2013


I hope the next one is a badass Sulu story and they bring back George Takei as future Sulu, he's earned it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:33 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


"Mr. Sulu, you have the CONNNNNNNNN!!!!"
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:38 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Also, if I remember the books I read a few years ago, the Borg probably don't exist in this new universe, which is good.

Please tell us why, I love this sh!t!
posted by MoxieProxy at 5:13 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Borg exist in Enterprise which all happened in this timeline... That may have been due to time travel from the TNG era though.
posted by Artw at 5:17 PM on June 12, 2013


You are right about the Borg in Enterprise, but I think they were somehow destroyed for all time as if it never happened at all by them going back to before humans even had spaceflight or something along those lines. I forget the details, but it was a classic example of the kind of story that led me to mention above that canon is bullshit in Star Trek. They just hand-waved it and now they're on to the next thing, which is, at least, a lot more interesting to me. I kind of appreciate this quality, actually.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:37 PM on June 12, 2013


No, the real continuity issue in STID is this:

(Do we even need spoiler warnings in this thread? In any case, here it is.)

Khan kills admiral dude by squishing his head in with his bare hands. Next we see Khan -- in the same scene -- he is perfectly clean. No blood on his shirt, no blood on his hands.

He'd at least need a napkin.
posted by meese at 6:23 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Crumbles is VERY clean.
posted by Artw at 6:26 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


WRT the continuity questions regarding the Klingon and Borg:

1) The change in the Klingons' appearance between TOS and the rest of the franchise was explained in a couple of episodes from the fourth (and final) season of Enterprise; basically, they were the result of a Klingon genetic engineering experiment gone awry, that itself was based on human genetic engineering from the Eugenics Wars, which kind of brings things full circle.

2) The Borg thing is a little more complicated, but also involves Enterprise; that particular episode set up a causality loop that "explained" that the reason why the Borg invaded the Alpha Quadrant (in the TNG two-parter "The Best of Both Worlds" and the movie First Contact) was because some of the Borg drones who went back in time in the movie, and were presumed to be destroyed by Picard's Enterprise, actually survived and were revived in the 22nd century, but not before sending a subspace signal to the Delta Quadrant, which wouldn't arrive for 200 years--just in time for their original appearance in TNG. This, however, ignores that a) the Borg had met the Enterprise-D in the episode "Q Who", and could have found out all about the Federation when they boarded the ship and hacked into their computer system, and then cut a chunk out of the ship (along with several unlucky crew members); they also could have found out about Earth from assimilating the ship that Annika Hansen, aka Seven of Nine, and her parents were on, which happened some time before TNG. Basically, the only reason why "Regeneration" happened was because they wanted to put the Borg on the show because they were a popular villain.

At any rate, the Borg still exist in the Delta Quadrant in the new continuity, and with the course of history having been sufficiently changed, there's nothing to say that they couldn't be in the next NuTrek movie, if there were a reason why the Enterprise might end up in the Delta Quadrant (basically, the opposite side of the galaxy).
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:23 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Humph. Some of us are still waiting for the supposedly Hitler-level infamous Col. Green and Zora to finally appear.
posted by Stoatfarm at 7:58 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


It was unclear to me why Khan transwarp transported to Qo'noS. How did that fit into his gambit other than to have a few minutes of Klingons on the screen.
posted by Tanizaki at 8:33 PM on June 12, 2013


I guess that the super blood means that new-Kirk and new-Carol Marcus's son is going to be some kind of beautiful ubermensch.

Long story short, it turns out that they name him Karl in the nuTrek universe. Instead of working on the genesis device, he winds up working on his own time machine; when it's activated, it accidentally sends him back to the middle of the 19th century. The difference in phonemes between his time period and the 1850s means folks hear his last name as only a single syllable.

Teaming up with William Riker's great-great-great-grandfather, some dude named Engels, he describes the economy of the 22nd century that he grew up in, inadvertently inspiring a number of revolutionaries who fight each other through the 20th century.

Somehow, I don't know how, this turns Khan into a British dude.
posted by thecaddy at 9:10 PM on June 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


Honestly, when I watched this with my wife and a few friends in the theater I still thought that the main villain would turn out to be someone else besides Khan. I made a very audible gasping sound accompanied by the exclamation 'What?!' much to my good friend's dismay (he hates when people talk in the theater). And then turned to my wife in exasperation. She gave me a "told you so" look and I continued to watch the movie and still enjoyed it.

Afterward, my wife was more concerned over the look of the Klingon's. Having just watched all of TOS, Next Gen, and DS-9 She had a good knowledge on how they evolved. I thought it was fine, but apparently it's a big deal. It's fun to speculate, but deep down this is JJ's take on all things Trek. So, I guess insane theories 1 regular theories a billion goes the saying.

Next up: what will JJ do to our beloved Star Wars? Hopefully, make it better in some way.
posted by PipRuss at 10:16 PM on June 12, 2013


I've heard of this theory before already. However, another Augment that Sherlockhan could be is
Joachim, who was actually an important underling of Montalkhán's. Apparently they even look similar. Here, pictures!

I'm disappointed by the title of this post, as I was expecting an explanation for why the new Klingons look really dumb and generic, despite having cool Predators-style masks.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:25 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Cold fusion is not a real fucking thing.

Then whence cometh MetaFilter?
posted by ODiV at 10:29 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Thanks to Apocryphon's link, I think we can assume the fic in the FPP is actually canon. It's really uncanny!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 2:15 AM on June 13, 2013


I suspect one of the reasons why they had Khan be white was so that they could have the big reveal take everyone by surprise. Of course, in reality this is how that went:

Abrams: Benedict Cumberbatch is the villain in our new Star Trek movie. I won't tell you who, but it's someone who has been in Star Trek before.
Fans: He's Khan.
Abrams: He's not Khan!
Fans: I'm still pretty sure he's Khan.
Movie: He's Khan.

Pretty much the exact same thing happened with Marion Cotillard's character in Dark Knight Rises. Hopefully Hollywood is learning their lesson and won't do this sort of silly thing anymore, but I doubt it.
posted by ckape at 8:37 AM on June 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


aught: I'm dithering about seeing it because 1) I'm still holding a grudge over S6 of LOST, and 2) I'm afraid it will be fun and then I'll be disgusted with myself afterward.
You needn't worry.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:40 AM on June 13, 2013


zippy: I am a big Star Trek fan. I enjoyed this movie by pretending it was written by children, directed by someone whose last gig was two seasons of "To Catch a Local Predator," yet with the whole shebang acted by real pros.
You know, Axe Cop could totally have saved the final scene. And added a certain gravitas.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:46 AM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I refuse to read this on general principle. 'Continuity' and 'canon' kill fiction. What matters is telling interesting stories, not whether the turbolift matches up between movies

Thank you for commenting despite your refusal to read the article. I think your dichotomy between continuity and interesting stories is a false one. Continuity is critical to telling an interesting story. The reason people watch television series is because, on the whole, they like the continuity of the series and look forward to future episodes because they expect it. We don't wonder, "will Spock be rational and logical this time?" but rather "how will he be rational and logical this time?" We expect Kirk to punch people in the face and Picard to overthink everything while sipping tea. Without this continuity, you do not have characters of any consequence.

That goes for other facts as well. Vulcan was destroyed in the last movie and remains destroyed in Into Darkness. If the next movie were to say, "oh, that was a dream/fake Vulcan/imagined by an autistic kid", it is a insult that eradicates a key part of Spock's personality.
posted by Tanizaki at 11:54 AM on June 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


I mean, have you seen how many different versions of Robin Hood there were?

Enough to be both of Superman's dads?
posted by radwolf76 at 2:53 PM on June 13, 2013 [5 favorites]


and Karl Urban does a very good Bones

eh, I would have said this after JJTrek 1, but I feel differently now. Grumpy Bones was entertaining for one movie. Always-grumpy Bones starts to grate over the length of two movies.

I remember DeForest Kelley smiling and laughing quite a bit in TOS. And yes, he was grumpy at times too, but not always, probably not even most of the time. nuMcCoy feels rather one-dimensional.

In fairness to Urban, that's probably more a flaw of the writing than of the acting.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:21 PM on June 13, 2013 [2 favorites]



Thank you for commenting despite your refusal to read the article. I think your dichotomy between continuity and interesting stories is a false one. Continuity is critical to telling an interesting story. The reason people watch television series is because, on the whole, they like the continuity of the series and look forward to future episodes because they expect it. We don't wonder, "will Spock be rational and logical this time?" but rather "how will he be rational and logical this time?" We expect Kirk to punch people in the face and Picard to overthink everything while sipping tea. Without this continuity, you do not have characters of any consequence.

That goes for other facts as well. Vulcan was destroyed in the last movie and remains destroyed in Into Darkness. If the next movie were to say, "oh, that was a dream/fake Vulcan/imagined by an autistic kid", it is a insult that eradicates a key part of Spock's personality.


Counterexamples: Doctor Who, Jerry Cornellius, pretty much any dimension hopping Micheal Moorcock character. I watch shows like Doctor Who and X-Files and Original Series Trek because I want to see What Crazy Thing Happens Next. Maybe they'll go into a planet of 30s gangsters! Maybe you'll fight Bigfoot! Maybe Spock will be turned into a space hippie!

If there is continuity, it should be on the most basic level, like Aspects in FATE: Spider-Man believes that with great power comes great responsiblity, and is generally some sort of put upon geek. But then again, he also worked as a Japanese sentai show. Or look at Batman: The Brave and the Bold. Some episodes he's Grim and Gritty Dark Knight, some episodes he's wisecracking Adam West. It doesn't matter.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:37 PM on June 13, 2013


Bones: Drokk!
Kirk: What?
Bones: Nothing, Jim.
posted by Artw at 4:37 PM on June 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


the latest Overthinking It podcast pointed out that the Federation is a survilence state... i'm just saying
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:39 PM on June 13, 2013


WAIT wait wait wait wait

So the Klingons should've looked like old-school Klingons in STID? Is that what I'm reading here? I'm slow, just help me out. Or are the Klingons in STID a group that wasn't part of the Klingon genetic experimentation, or who didn't get the flu?
posted by MoxieProxy at 4:52 PM on June 13, 2013


The reason people watch television series is because, on the whole, they like the continuity of the series and look forward to future episodes because they expect it. We don't wonder, "will Spock be rational and logical this time?" but rather "how will he be rational and logical this time?" We expect Kirk to punch people in the face and Picard to overthink everything while sipping tea. Without this continuity, you do not have characters of any consequence.
- a guy who has never watched American Horror Story
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:16 AM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I just finished watching American Horror Story season 2 lately. It made all the scenes in Into Darkness with Spock extra tense, since he was what Thredson pretended to be.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 9:20 AM on June 14, 2013


a guy who has never watched American Horror Story

You have correctly ascertained I have never seen this show, so I am afraid I must ask you to drop the other show.
posted by Tanizaki at 10:06 AM on June 14, 2013


You have correctly ascertained I have never seen this show, so I am afraid I must ask you to drop the other show.

haha, no. the joke is that american horror story is a weirdly compelling, interesting show with no particular degree of continuity. not just a lack of continuity between seasons, but whole plotlines just basically disappear because the writers forgot about them. i have no idea what "i must ask you to drop the other show" is intended to mean but i'm sure it's something wonderfully clever, so well done and all that.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:32 AM on June 14, 2013


wait, did you mean shoe? if so then i guess i did so in the second and third sentences of the previous comment so i guess skip to that and ignore the rest. it's like you get to time travel as seen on the famous television show star trek.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:34 AM on June 14, 2013


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