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Even nerd misogyny is subject to Rule 63.
June 14, 2013 4:26 PM   Subscribe

"I know the only reason you wear those cargo shorts is to get my attention, okay? I'm not buying it." Ladies, I'm sure you've noticed them on the Internet: Fake Nerd Boys -- a brief rant on the impending demise of a proud but beleaguered subculture. (SLYT)

Previously on MeFi:
posted by Strange Interlude (80 comments total) 17 users marked this as a favorite

 
Ah. I thought it was forward-thinking hippies that wore the cargo shorts and hiking sandals.
posted by PuppyCat at 4:32 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


All those fake gay nerd boys who pretend to be into Earthbound and art history when really all they just want to get into my pants! Sickening!
posted by The Whelk at 4:35 PM on June 14, 2013 [12 favorites]


I'm at least into EarthBound! I was into it before it was even a thing you could joke about maybe being cool
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:41 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm neither gay nor into art history, though, so it should be no surprise then that I am fully satisfied with being in my OWN pants, thankyouverymuch
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:42 PM on June 14, 2013


The fact that "nerd-dom" is an area that people are contesting, or bother to satirize others contesting it, makes me laugh from behind my slide rule.
posted by benito.strauss at 4:48 PM on June 14, 2013 [20 favorites]


OMG I passed her criteria. WHEW. I'm not fake.
posted by GuyZero at 4:54 PM on June 14, 2013


"I'm going to be awkward and immature about social group pretending to be awkward and immature but failing awkwardly and with immaturity" says thoroughly confused local area woman.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 5:02 PM on June 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


Wait, is being into Earthbound supposed to get you laid? Because something went terribly wrong with my adolescence, then.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:10 PM on June 14, 2013 [7 favorites]


My experience is that being into anything intensely enough will get you laid, if you don't mind sleeping with a people who you have PRECISELY ONE THING in common with.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 5:17 PM on June 14, 2013 [29 favorites]


I mean, shit, most of the people I slept with in my early 20s, it was because we were all into morris dancing of all goddamn things.

(Actually some of those turned out to be people with real merits. But that doesn't change the fact that we originally hooked up for one and only one reason — because their manner-of-hopping-around-with-bells-on-their-shoes and my manner-of-hopping-around-with-bells-on-my-shoes were so perfectly, intensely, blissfully, lust-inducingly compatible. Geeks, man.)
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 5:23 PM on June 14, 2013 [29 favorites]


My experience is that being into anything intensely enough will get you laid, if you don't mind sleeping with a people who you have PRECISELY ONE THING in common with.

AKA The Drama Club Rule.
posted by The Whelk at 5:28 PM on June 14, 2013 [21 favorites]


"Go catch a fish" is awesome.
posted by dumbland at 5:34 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


As it happens, my favorite shorts happen to be cargo shorts. They have pockets for my kit, and aren't too form-fitting -- a winning combination. But have I missed some broader association some people have with them? As an isolated introvert, I wouldn't know. Someone clue me in. (Or possibly she was kidding, and I can't read sarcasm.)
posted by scamper at 5:38 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think cargo shorts are associated with the frat boy culture.
posted by cazoo at 5:42 PM on June 14, 2013


Where do nerds put all their handkerchiefs and paperbacks, if they don't wear cargos?
posted by mittens at 5:47 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Nah, fratbros wear those flannel patterned, brightly colored Old Navy shorts that hug the waist tightly.

Cargo shorts are for IT workers feeling casual.
posted by The Whelk at 5:48 PM on June 14, 2013 [11 favorites]


But also, how come she says you can't like Star Wars, because it is decades old, and then in the next sentence demands you watch Star Trek, which was filmed before the invention of the telegraph?
posted by mittens at 5:53 PM on June 14, 2013 [6 favorites]


She doesn't say you can't like Star Wars. She says it isn't sufficient to like Star Wars.
posted by 256 at 5:55 PM on June 14, 2013


For a purity enforcer, she doesn't seem to know very much about nerds.
posted by R. Schlock at 6:01 PM on June 14, 2013


if you don't mind sleeping with a people who you have PRECISELY ONE THING in common with.

I prefer it if we don't even have a language in common.
posted by elizardbits at 6:10 PM on June 14, 2013 [9 favorites]


Yeah, I've seen all those complaints expressed in earnest on the internet (by men; this is not a "teh menz" comment). It just goes to show that people will always out-spite satire. And if they haven't, they will - you know, out of spite.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 6:12 PM on June 14, 2013


The fact that "nerd-dom" is an area that people are contesting, or bother to satirize others contesting it, makes me laugh from behind my slide rule.

Is that a slide rule in your pocket or are you just carrying a really awkward and bulky ruler, big boy?
posted by yoink at 6:15 PM on June 14, 2013


Fake Nerd Girls
posted by Room 641-A at 6:41 PM on June 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


Whelp, it's a good thing I don't much care what she thinks about me.

Going back to being a huge fan of ST:TNG whilst not giving two shits about the original series -- and lovin' life for it.
posted by chasing at 6:45 PM on June 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


Nerds and geeks care about ontology. In this case, lots of male nerds and geeks care about ontology to the point of sexism and silliness.

I think that this is the most valid way to go about it, and I've found this to be true in every nerd category: ttrpg nerd, video game geek, cs nerds, ren faire or drama nerds, band nerds. The nerdhood is based upon a focus on categorization, and that focus leads to nonempirical Platonic silliness. Nowhere did I find it to be more awful than with the philosophy nerds, btw.
posted by curuinor at 6:49 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


All those fake gay nerd boys who pretend to be into Earthbound

A handy shibboleth would be to ask them their opinion on Mother 3.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:21 PM on June 14, 2013


SMAAAASH!
posted by The Whelk at 7:28 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I prefer it if we don't even have a language in common.

Where I come from not having a species in common is often preferred.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:36 PM on June 14, 2013


I don't even know what "cargo shorts" are! And I don't buy $10 shirts. Too expensive.

Also, was this woman the celebrity who was busted for shoplifting and used to date Johnny Depp?

In conclusion, I am confused. (But not confused enough to care.)
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 7:37 PM on June 14, 2013


Cargo shorts are nerdy? If I wear them in an attempt to be non-nerd cool, does that make me a real nerd or a fake cool guy?
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:42 PM on June 14, 2013


I'm gonna leave this here.
posted by petrilli at 7:42 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is this supposed to be a satire of the whole "fake nerd girl" rant thingy? Because if it is, she doesn't make it very clear, and I think a lot of the commenters here are taking it straight.
posted by matildaben at 7:42 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yes, it was intended as satire.
posted by eviemath at 7:51 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think she does make it very clear that it's a satire and I also think it is hilarious.
posted by BlueJae at 8:05 PM on June 14, 2013 [9 favorites]


Yeah, I'm kinda surprised that people are missing that this is a satire of the "Fake Nerd Girl" thing.
posted by Richard Daly at 8:05 PM on June 14, 2013 [4 favorites]


(I mean, she really hangs a lantern on it with the "anti-social misogynistic wierdos" line. And also "Go grill me a steak" line. And also the part mentioned right in the FPP where she says "I know you're only wearing those cargo shorts just to get my attention." And . . . I could go on but maybe those who don't get it should try reading the previouslies Strange Interlude so helpfully posted for context?)
posted by BlueJae at 8:11 PM on June 14, 2013 [6 favorites]


Okay, so at least a few of us are picking up on the irony here...scrolling through the comments it felt for a bit like I'd watched a different video.
posted by uosuaq at 8:47 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


It was... ok.

Best cargo pants: http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-pants/work-pants-for-men/45507.aspx Hot slag bounces right off 'em.

She could have leaned into the knowledge part of nerd a little harder, IMHO. Maybe more physics or math?

I do like grilling steak for folks, though. You can pretty much just show up and I'll grill you a steak. Really. Anywhere on the gender spectrum, regardless of anyone's preference (unless you are a vegan, then I will grill you a mushroom)
posted by poe at 9:17 PM on June 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


Where do carpenter pants fall? You know, the ones with the loop for your hammer? Those are what I wear when I want to carry more than my normal jeans allow.

You're all fake nerds, regardless of gender, unless you can name your favorite theorem.

No but hooray for shaming those "fake geek girl" assholes.
posted by Eideteker at 10:09 PM on June 14, 2013


I just subscribed to her YouTube channel and Twitter feed so I can learn more insight about how to tell when someone is doing something for attention.
posted by Tanizaki at 10:40 PM on June 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


This thread feels like listening to the Phil Hendrie show.
posted by glhaynes at 10:40 PM on June 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


Wow, is that Tina Fey's younger sister?
posted by tservo at 11:17 PM on June 14, 2013


You're all fake nerds, regardless of gender, unless you can name your favorite theorem.

Does the one about how Ash has been in a coma the whole time and he's imagining everything and Misty and Brock are expressions of his subconscious count?
posted by NoraReed at 11:24 PM on June 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yeah, seriously, this is totally obvious satire and that some of the meaner commenters above missing this is wonderful.
posted by ominous_paws at 12:07 AM on June 15, 2013 [12 favorites]


Does it make me a bad feminist if I say I have the biggest 7th grade will-you-go-out-with-me-yes-no crush on her evar, and that I want to kiss her and buy her video game themed tshirts and talk shit to PUAs and MRAs on Reddit with her?
posted by DecemberBoy at 1:38 AM on June 15, 2013


AKA The Drama Club Rule.

Or the A Cappella Postulate.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 1:44 AM on June 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Cargo shorts are for IT workers feeling casualanyone wanting to carry more than a set of keys and a little change on a hot day.
posted by DU at 3:31 AM on June 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


Bags, in fact, are for carrying more than a set of keys and some change on any day when a) it is hot and b) you are an adult.
posted by ominous_paws at 4:18 AM on June 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Whelp, it's a good thing I don't much care what she thinks about me.

For a purity enforcer, she doesn't seem to know very much about nerds.

Is this supposed to be a satire of the whole "fake nerd girl" rant thingy? Because if it is, she doesn't make it very clear, and I think a lot of the commenters here are taking it straight.

It was obvious satire just from the title alone. That some commenters missed that... well, I shudder to think how they deal with The Onion or Colbert Report.
posted by kmz at 4:22 AM on June 15, 2013 [6 favorites]


This is what us real nerd boys and girls call "Delicious trollage"

oh god yes keep it coming, keep clamoring to prove the legitimacy of your passions despite your gender's worst stereotypes to this "angry" internet lady... The Point should hit you by tomorrow morning at the latest.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 7:37 AM on June 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


Cargo shorts are nerdy? Since when? Fucking nerds, expropriating my culture of comfort-and-convenience!
posted by Xoebe at 8:07 AM on June 15, 2013


"I mean, she really hangs a lantern on it with the..."

Every now and then, most everyone fails to recognize irony for no particular reason other than chance or just not paying much attention. And I'm sure that accounts for a fair number of those in this case. But sometimes people miss irony because they have a strong bias for reading something as earnest — it validates their worldview. Some people are primed to be irritated at what they think is a woman saying obnoxious things, so that's how they see it. We can get a sense of who those people are by their history of similar reactions.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:04 AM on June 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


Tanizaki: "I just subscribed to her YouTube channel and Twitter feed so I can learn more insight about how to tell when someone is doing something for attention."

It was a satire. The point of that part of the satire was that, quite often, women who tend to enjoy the world of nerdiness are accused of "just trying to get attention." She was trying to point out how silly and vain this line of argument is by making it about cargo pants. It sounds like you agree with her that that line of argument is silly and vain, so maybe you'll get a lot out of checking out her Twitter and Youtube channel and whatever.
posted by koeselitz at 9:35 AM on June 15, 2013 [4 favorites]


No but hooray for shaming those "fake geek girl" assholes.

The Portlandia sketch I linked to?
posted by Room 641-A at 10:34 AM on June 15, 2013


I came for the rant; I stayed for the exaggerated facial expressions. I like those. She has some good ones.
posted by fikri at 12:17 PM on June 15, 2013


this is totally obvious satire and that some of the meaner commenters above missing this is wonderful.

Really. Hey frat jocks, it really stings when it's you, doesn't it! Especially when it means you might be missing out on some Happy Kitty action!
posted by Twang at 1:36 PM on June 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Room 641-A: "The Portlandia sketch I linked to?"

It's one of the lesser instances, but yeah. I've never seen that show really, but I've seen that sketch around, and it annoys the crap out of me. It's stupid, it's exclusionary, and it's prejudiced. And we don't need that crap around in the nerd world.
posted by koeselitz at 4:02 PM on June 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


(But, Room 641-A, I hasten to note that you seem to have missed the "more inside" of this post, which contains a slew of much more virulent "fake geek girl" rants. This isn't all because of a Portlandia sketch.)
posted by koeselitz at 4:04 PM on June 15, 2013


What the hell are you guys carrying that hits the weird "I have too much crap for a regular pair of pants but not quite enough to carry a bag" niche?
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:54 PM on June 15, 2013


It may be hard to wrap your head around, but, yeah, men accosting women at cons with assertions that they're not real fans that have earned the right to be there happens with depressing regularity. Here's one story thereof. Following the "previously" links up more leads to lots more.
posted by Zed at 5:49 PM on June 15, 2013


I've never seen that show really

Carrie Brownstein, one half of the pair behind the show, is somewhat of a feminist icon and I can tell you that if I thought for a second that sketch was even about the girl (let alone trying to shame her) I wouldn't have posted it here. In fact, the reason I did post it is because I thought of it as a companion to the subject of this FPP.

I know humor is subjective (many of the comments here remark on people missing the satire in the FPP) so I'm not trying to convince anyone they should like it, and I know that you can't assume that just because I'm a woman I'm not part of the problem so I want to make it clear what the intent behind the comment was and that it was not to come in here and lay a giant turd.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:56 PM on June 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


What the hell are you guys carrying that hits the weird "I have too much crap for a regular pair of pants but not quite enough to carry a bag" niche?


Cargo shorts are for when a bag would cramp your nonexistent style, like when - hypothetically - you're too shy to ask how to get a locker in high school, and so your backpack is so crammed full of bulky textbooks that you can't take it anywhere without hunching over and lunging forward like a dinosaur. Also, you don't believe in putting things in your side pockets, because you've seen enough instances of dorks getting made fun of because the outline of their wallets or phones or keys sort of resemble erections, despite being rectangular (teen mockery knows no logic). And you won't put your wallet in your back pocket, because sitting on a wallet is uncomfortable to your skinny bony ass, with which your horrible diet and sedentary lifestyle has not caught up thanks to the miracle of teenage metabolism. Of course, you wear a coat when you can, because it's more comfortable than the weight of your keys, change, gum, paperbacks, or whatever weighing down your pants, but people keep pointing out to you that nobody wears a jacket in July when it's 90 degrees out, and you're tired of repeating your Unified Theory of Jackets and Shorts based on the circumstances of when it's too cold outside for no coat but too warm inside for long pants. So that pretty much leaves cargo shorts for your wallet, keys, change, gum, medicine, small paperbacks, prescription sunglasses, and whatever else you somehow think will be necessary to have on your person.

It made sense at the time, I swear.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 6:51 PM on June 15, 2013 [2 favorites]


What are cargo shorts?

I earn my living programming but I'm not very keen on Star Trek (any edition).
Where does that leave me?
posted by fernbritton at 7:19 PM on June 15, 2013


Actually, I self identify as a slacker. And though there may have been fake slackers in the 80s and 90s, I think they all died out because with the financial crisis, you need to look like a hard worker (hence a nerd) to get a job. And well, even if there were fake slackers, I'm too lazy too make an effort to complain or harass them on their fakeness anyways, because, y'know I'm a slacker.

And, oh yeah, nerds and geeks are not the same thing. There's a bit of overlap. It's kinda like the difference between a wolf and a dog.
posted by FJT at 1:31 AM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


I really love how some comments are telling her that she's not nerdy enough to be nerd-shaming, she's not geeky enough to pull off geekiness. It's really...something.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:09 AM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


What the hell are you guys carrying that hits the weird "I have too much crap for a regular pair of pants but not quite enough to carry a bag" niche?

I have a brocade purse in the shape of a Chinese take-out container. It once had a handle on it that matched but it's hard to put a metal thing like that on your shoulder without it biting into those tendons on the outside of your underarms if you move wrong, so I replaced that with a matching ribbon. It fits my ipod touch, my phone, my wallet, lip balm, lipstick and/or gloss if necessary, an extra pad or two and some pills if I need them. If I take out the lippy I have room for my camera. The sides expand a bit if I really need to stuff it full (because it literally is in the shape of a folding takeout container and the handle holds it together). I get more compliments on it than any other article of clothing I own, and it's not even really an article of clothing. And I say this as someone who is MAD STYLISH.

Oh, you meant guys as in "men", not just a general "you guys" collective pronoun? Yeah, I'm pretty sure the 20somethings at least just all get smallish canvas messenger or laptop bags and then don't put very much stuff in them. Once they get kids they can get diaper bags and stop giving a shit, it seems.

I do not understand how nerds can manage to create an entire "utilikilt" thing so that they can wear bastardized versions of kilts that are just skirts but they won't just cut the gender policing out and carry purses. THEY ARE SMALL BAGS, GUYS. THEY ARE GREAT TO PUT YOUR DS IN.
posted by NoraReed at 3:57 AM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Dear Men.

Haversacks they're like five dollars at the Army surplus store.
posted by The Whelk at 7:34 AM on June 16, 2013


No one actually wears cargo shorts for the storage... do they? It's impossible to find sorts of any other kind unless they're those dumb plaid bro-shorts, and they look like they're just larger versions of the kind that toddlers wear.

Anything that isn't a backpack or a laptop-bag/briefcase is unfit for any self-respecting man. And if you've got a backpack, you'd better be on a bike.
posted by hellslinger at 9:57 AM on June 16, 2013


What the hell are you guys carrying that hits the weird "I have too much crap for a regular pair of pants but not quite enough to carry a bag" niche?

I'm a nerd lady who rides a bike. Depending on the length of my route and what I mean to do on any ride, I use either a small backpack that holds wallet, sunscreen, and whatever I'm shopping for, or a Camelback without the water bladder that holds just my wallet and sunscreen.

I usually wear capris with buttoned leg pockets -- close enough to cargo shorts -- and use the left leg pocket for my keys, right leg pocket for my phone, left front pocket for my bike computer after I park and lock my bike, and right front pocket for my iPod with earbuds for the walking around on the errands part of my trip. Keys in a front pocket + cycling = owies, plus potential scratches to any devices that end up in the same pocket. Keys in backpack + cycling = lots of fumbling around for keys when locking and unlocking the bike on multiple stops. Etc.

So depending on the circumstances, some of us need both a bag and highly functional pants. If I'm just walking around, I might wear the same capris, but stuff everything in a bag or backpack instead, except for my phone on my leg if I want quick access.
posted by maudlin at 11:13 AM on June 16, 2013


The solution to this problem is one of those thigh holster/fanny pack hybrid thingies.
posted by elizardbits at 11:25 AM on June 16, 2013


Anything that isn't a backpack or a laptop-bag/briefcase is unfit for any self-respecting man.

Indiana Jones can't even be bothered to pity you.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:51 AM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


No one actually wears cargo shorts for the storage... do they?

Every young guy here does, yeah. Especially in high school.

Ditto men who need their phones, keys and wallets but are off work, because temps are in the high 80s here already, so wearing slacks doesn't work, and unless you need a laptop you aren't carrying a computer bag.

If you are a college kid riding a bike to and around school, you most likely have a backpack for the laptop and other stuff (because apparently messenger bags are too preppy, which is face-saving code for "out of my price range").

Cargo shorts are practical. I don't get the hate for them, which is something I would associate with hipsters (though apparently we have decided they do not exist). It's surprising coming from Mefites, who I would have thought would be beyond juvenile, "Cool kids wear these clothes, amirite? " comments.
posted by misha at 12:33 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm very forgetful. When I carry a bag, I often lose it. I prefer not to lose my phone and wallet. I lose my pants less often. Qed.
posted by ead at 1:24 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's surprising coming from Mefites, who I would have thought would be beyond juvenile, "Cool kids wear these clothes, amirite? " comments.

Metafilter's a big site though. The sartorial comments over on AskMe seem to largely agree that cargo shorts for men are out, topics here and here mention that. And just like how there's people who geek out on Star Wars, there's a growing number who geek out on fashion.
posted by FJT at 3:44 PM on June 16, 2013


Here's what I don't understand about the whole cargo shorts debate. If not cargo shorts, then what? I mean, today. June, 2013.

Bermuda shorts? Knee-length stonewashed denim? Cut-off chinos? I think these other styles have a stronger association with a particular group of people, and a longer one, too, so to me cargo shorts are sort of like the "other" box on a form, and that's the style that's sort of the current default or neutural. In the late 70s the people wearing cargo shorts today would probably be wearing OPs or jogging shorts. (Tube socks optional.) There's only so much you can do with shorts.

As always, I am totally fascinated and utterly clueless about men's fashion. Anyway, I think cargo shorts and t-shirts usually look cute on guys.

On preview, cargo shorts for men are out

I'm sure whatever replaces them will also be worn by frat boys and everyone else who wears cargo shorts. I guess what I'm trying to say is, casual guy is casual.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:06 PM on June 16, 2013


I gotta say sometimes when I talk to geekier people I need to pretend I've read comics more recently than 10 years ago, and since I don't play modern RPGs girls talking about Mass Effect and Dragon Age kinda lead mve cold.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 5:22 PM on June 16, 2013



Is this supposed to be a satire of the whole "fake nerd girl" rant thingy? Because if it is, she doesn't make it very clear, and I think a lot of the commenters here are taking it straight.


Its obviously satire. Not very good satire, but if you can't recognize it than MeFi is really tone deaf.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 5:23 PM on June 16, 2013


so to me cargo shorts are sort of like the "other" box on a form, and that's the style that's sort of the current default or neutural.

Well, the whole thing with fashion is there's always going to be an element of personal aesthetics and taste. Put This On says that cargoes shout out, "I'm another schlubby American jackass" and recommends in general to abandon more baggy looking shorts for those more with clean lines. In another post, they recommend more specific brands and kinds like Chino shorts by Uniqlo or Madras shorts by Lands' End. They even mention these things called ghurka shorts, which I've never even heard of but now want.
posted by FJT at 5:26 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


I lose my pants less often.

You may be doing it wrong.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:21 AM on June 17, 2013


No one actually wears cargo shorts for the storage... do they?

Oh yeah, they totally do. Other pants, too. This is the one huge benefit those super-baggy goth/raver/etc pants that you could get at Hot Topic in 2004 had over all other pants. I had a friend in college who had the girl pants version of cargo pants (baggy, gigantic pockets at the waist you can fit your goddamn wallet in and buttony pants on the sides). This was the early days of the Netbook, and she had 2-- an eeepc and a OLPC. She could fit both in her pockets, one on each side. (She didn't really do this often because it was silly, I think she just did it for me once to demonstrate. I think she might've carried one at a time with her, though.)
posted by NoraReed at 6:58 AM on June 17, 2013


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