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"Embarrassed" rap about breastfeeding.
July 7, 2013 3:14 AM   Subscribe

Hollie McNish, Poet Shamed By Breastfeeding In Public, Has The Last Word on breastfeeding in public. [Warning! very uh... colourful language]
posted by AnTilgangs (86 comments total) 31 users marked this as a favorite

 
Sorry to all you MeFites, I get high marks on "how to be redundant", writing that it was about breastfeeding about 3 times in about as many words. I blame the fact that this is my first post on the blue.
posted by AnTilgangs at 3:26 AM on July 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


We've got twins, so breastfeeding them in public can sometimes be a bit of a trial, and I'm aware of the discomfort the tutting and looks can arouse. However, like McNish, we're in the UK, and if anyone ever tries to throw my wife off a bus or out of a pub, we have a very simple remedy: under the 2010 Equalities Act, it's illegal discrimination (pdf link) to attempt to stop someone from breastfeeding in public.
posted by Jakob at 3:36 AM on July 7, 2013 [5 favorites]


I think it's a wonderful first post on the blue, about breastfeeding and breastfeeding is something that we should really should've gotten used to in all aspects of society by now. Breastfeeding.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:39 AM on July 7, 2013 [42 favorites]


Thanks for tweeting it Kim, I'm depressed that 23 years after a similar experience its still like this. And people wonder why we object when they say Feminism is dead, or object to us calling ourselves feminists.
Or worse, almost, when young women refuse to use it as they understand it as man-hating, not humanity-loving. We don't whip out a tit to offend and they are gender-blind tits to boot! They nurture and nurse any baby, even the MENZ!
posted by Wilder at 4:28 AM on July 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


However, like McNish, we're in the UK

Is this a Southern thing? Or a recent thing?

My mother breastfed us in public, and my wife breastfed her kids in public. I don't remember anyone bitching about it. It was just what everyone did in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

One of the dominant memories of my childhood in the 60's was seeing women sitting on their front doorsteps, breastfeeding their kids while they chatted with the neighbours in the street. They were so unselfconscious about it that they wouldn't dream of bothering to go and do it indoors.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:01 AM on July 7, 2013


a powerful poem
posted by greenhornet at 5:06 AM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


My wife's experience (six months) in England has been that breastfeeding in public is generally ignored, and that she has never suffered any comments or complaints. No-one is that bothered.

If you're considering breast-feeding in public in England then your experience may well be different from Hollie McNish's: it's worked well for my wife, and I would hate for someone to think that nursing in public is a big stressful thing with lots of aggravation based on this poem. That hasn't been our experience at all.
posted by alasdair at 5:40 AM on July 7, 2013 [3 favorites]


One of the dominant memories of my childhood in the 60's was seeing women sitting on their front doorsteps, breastfeeding their kids while they chatted with the neighbours in the street.

I agree that women should breastfeed anywhere they want, but there's public and then there's public. Front porches aren't shopping malls.
posted by Etrigan at 5:45 AM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Front porches aren't shopping malls.

Wait, are you saying what I think you're saying? Or is my sarcasm detector on the fritz again?
posted by zorrine at 6:12 AM on July 7, 2013 [3 favorites]


Front porches aren't shopping malls.

Try telling that to a baby.
posted by that's how you get ants at 6:17 AM on July 7, 2013 [25 favorites]


Jesus. Who is this woman and can I pipe her voice into my life at all times.
posted by angrycat at 6:21 AM on July 7, 2013


but there's public and then there's public

No. Actually there isn't.
posted by pompomtom at 6:25 AM on July 7, 2013 [31 favorites]


Front porches aren't shopping malls.

Good thing too, otherwise Mojo Nixon would have a lot of explaining to do. That said, feed your kids anywhere you damn well like as long as it keeps them from screaming their tiny little lungs out.
posted by item at 6:30 AM on July 7, 2013 [5 favorites]


but there's public and then there's public

No. Actually there isn't.


Yes. Actually there is. Because, not even counting the fact that you cut off the part of my sentence where I'm agreeing that breastfeeding should be allowed everywhere, there is (and should be) a distinct difference between what people do on their own front porches and what they do in other "public" places, and I'm not just talking about breastfeeding here.

My point -- which I'll reiterate is not that breastfeeding should be disallowed anywhere -- is that PeterMcDermott recalling women breastfeeding on their own front porches in the 1960s does not mean that no one would have objected to women doing it anywhere else.

Oh, and in case you missed the second through fourth times I've said it: I believe that women should be allowed to breastfeed anywhere.
posted by Etrigan at 6:47 AM on July 7, 2013 [8 favorites]


is that PeterMcDermott recalling women breastfeeding on their own front porches in the 1960s does not mean that no one would have objected to women doing it anywhere else.

True, but as a matter of sociological fact I think that breastfeeding "in public" was less of an issue in the 60s than it is today. That is, I don't think a woman sitting on a park bench breastfeeding would have drawn any particular negative attention. I suspect a lot of the more recent fuss about breastfeeding is tied up with the moral panic about sexual abuse of children (hence the "OMG, what if some CHILD sees a BREAST in PUBLIC!!!?!").
posted by yoink at 7:08 AM on July 7, 2013 [3 favorites]


It was just what everyone did in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

That is not my experience. Direct or related. In fact it is quite the opposite.

And I am in the "I should never see breast-feeding" camp, so I am attuned to that sort of thing.

Of course, I am also in the "children should be neither seen nor heard" camp.
posted by Mezentian at 7:08 AM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


That is not my experience. Direct or related. In fact it is quite the opposite.

Yeah, I was talking specifically about working class communities in Liverpool. I've no idea what people did anywhere else. That's why I asked whether this could be a north/south divide thing?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:16 AM on July 7, 2013


>Yes. Actually there is.

I presume you'll personally be delineating the somewhat-public and a-bit-public and mostly-public places, or could we, perhaps, have (oh, the irony) public institutions like parliaments which tell us what is public?

A place is either public, or it isn't. There's no ickiness-gradient for weirdos who don't understand breasts.

My point -- which I'll reiterate is not that breastfeeding should be disallowed anywhere -- is that PeterMcDermott recalling women breastfeeding on their own front porches in the 1960s does not mean that no one would have objected to women doing it anywhere else.

Some people object to miscegenation. The 'offend no crazy person' rule is not a good one.
posted by pompomtom at 7:20 AM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm south, like, waaaay south, in Australia. Destination of the The Ten Pound Poms and the post war Italians, etc, and the Vietnamese boat people of the 1970s.

I don't see "Southern" and assume it means continental USA. But I do assume it means conservative, so my point stands. Although I did miss your regionalism.
posted by Mezentian at 7:22 AM on July 7, 2013


I've lived in countries where it was common, in almost any situation, to see a woman pull up her shirt or maneuver a breast out of the top of her top in order to breastfeed. I remember thinking that it was so strange that I found it strange - that I came from a place where that wasn't normal.
posted by Nothing at 7:38 AM on July 7, 2013


I have never understood why this is a discussion.

1. Everyone seems to agree that breastmilk is by far the best nutrition for infants.

2. Infants need to eat frequently.

3. So, where does this leave us assuming one doesn't dispute the above facts? Either we can live like sane people or we can make women live in shame because some people don't like to see a natural and healthy part of life. The latter doesn't seem reasonable.

There is also pressure that women experience when pumping at work, which is done in private. It seems like people really want to be sequestered even from things that make them conceptually I uncomfortable, but that is a sad and limited life to lead.
posted by selfnoise at 7:48 AM on July 7, 2013 [8 favorites]


You know, I have a problem with public breastfeeding. But it's just that - *my* problem, and I should fucking deal with it.
Two of my sisters have babies. At a family function the other day, both of their kids decided it's time to eat, so boobs came out. It knocked me to my back foot, so to speak, but I realized that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what they were doing, so I needed to deal with it, not harangue them or even look askance.

(for the record, it's the same tack that needs to be taken by those who are against gay people because gay sex squicks them out. Deal with it dude.)
posted by notsnot at 8:03 AM on July 7, 2013 [9 favorites]


And I am in the "I should never see breast-feeding" camp, so I am attuned to that sort of thing.

Why? What are you afraid you might do?
posted by heyho at 8:41 AM on July 7, 2013 [6 favorites]


I don't see "Southern" and assume it means continental USA

PeterMcDermott is from the UK; he explicitly mentions Liverpool. I actually think the conversation about regional differences within countries is pretty interesting (is it a northern/southern thing in the UK? Based on my understanding there are socioeconomic differences that could play into this) and it'd be neat to have that conversation without this kind of derail.

Also, if a nation is going to ban (or shame) breastfeeding in public such that when I have a baby I can barely leave the house there better be some PHENOMENAL maternity leave policies in place, including but not limited to:

1) Letting me have like a year or whatever off of work.

2) Ensuring that doctors make housecalls since I am pretty sure that new mothers and young babies need to see doctors a lot and if we can't go out in public then we are sort of screwed there.

3) Having someone deliver food, clothing, toiletries, pretty much any shopping I have to do to my home.

4) Giving my partner and/or friends a bunch of time off work so I don't go effing crazy sitting around with a baby all day no matter how much I love him/her.

5) Frankly probably building some sort of network of underground tunnels so I can get to other "private" areas because no way can I legitimately stay in my home for that long. I mean I don't have kids yet and when I do I expect I will love them very, VERY much but seriously I need to leave the house for all kinds of reasons including not wanting to be an adult isolated in one building with only a baby for company and also just because you've given birth doesn't mean your only job is "sit at home feeding your infant" for like however long. People have shit to do.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:51 AM on July 7, 2013 [28 favorites]


"I presume you'll personally be delineating the somewhat-public and a-bit-public and mostly-public places, or could we, perhaps, have (oh, the irony) public institutions like parliaments which tell us what is public? A place is either public, or it isn't. There's no ickiness-gradient for weirdos who don't understand breasts."

I feel like you're deliberately misreading a bit here. Babies should be fed anywhere, anytime. But there's a clear difference among "public" settings like your own front porch, a pediatrician's waiting room, in a quiet restaurant booth, on a brightly-lit park bench, while walking around Target or Asda, or while speaking at a public meeting and being broadcast on local cable (I've done that!). I breastfed both my kids for a year each, in a variety of settings, some of them ultra-public settings, and I never got hassled or shamed or even looked at askance. People were uniformly supportive and if anyone felt uncomfortable about it (which I could tell they sometimes did), they STFU and let me get on with it, as they ought to. But there are certainly public settings that are more and less "public" and, while all of them should be (and where I live, are) legal places to breastfeed, we can certainly talk about the sociological experience of those gradients of "publicness" and breastfeeding.

In my cultural experience, a lot of people's discomfort comes not from "AHHH! BOOBS!" but rather from being confronted with an "intimate" (for lack of a better word) physical act and not knowing how embarrassed the other person might be. Like, if someone accidentally busts in on me while I'm changing clothes, it's not a big deal to me -- it happens, I'm not freaked out by it, it doesn't really embarrass me -- but the other person's discomfort isn't so much a reaction to MY level of comfort, it's a reaction to being confronted with an intimate act and them being aware that it MIGHT embarrass me, but not being sure if it WILL. Then I feel sympathetically embarrassed for them and embarrassed that I caused them embarrassment, in a ramifying interplay of social embarrassment over whether someone MIGHT be embarrassed. Anyway, my experience of people's comfort level with breastfeeding is that in my local culture, even women who publicly breastfed all the time feel somewhat awkward when they are unexpectedly confronted with another woman breastfeeding, because it is POSSIBLE that woman feels embarrassed about being seen and you have inadvertently stumbled into someone's private space, but you just don't know. And that's true even if she's walking around Target with a boob out, because the whole point of breastfeeding in public is, you can't stop shopping for food just because your baby is screaming their head off for milk every 60 minutes. So it might be something she's doing because it needs to be done, not because she's super-comfortable with it.

Anyway. My point is: My experience of people's discomfort with public breastfeeding was that it had nothing to do with moral panic about breasts, but with people's uncertainty about how intrusive they were being by seeing someone breastfeed in public and not knowing if they would embarrass the mother by the simple, innocent act of seeing her, and the mother then feeling embarrassed that she might socially embarrass other people, and so on. It probably doesn't function this way in cultures that don't run quite so much on passive-aggressively avoiding causing social discomfort to others but never speaking of it.

People can be in favor of breastfeeding in public -- even be the one who is DOING the breastfeeding in public -- but still feel kind-of awkward about it. It'd be great if nobody ever had to feel awkward about breastfeeding ever, but it's okay to talk about how it can be a little awkward, especially because when people talk about it, they are usually relieved to discover that nobody's embarrassed and they don't have to get awkward, and then they feel less-awkward in the future.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:56 AM on July 7, 2013 [19 favorites]


A place is either public, or it isn't. There's no ickiness-gradient for weirdos who don't understand breasts.

You're just being obnoxious now. Read both his posts in full. I know you really want to argue with someone who is against public breast feeding, but no one is doing that; and twisting a perfectly reasonable commen in this way doesn't help your cause.
posted by spaltavian at 9:11 AM on July 7, 2013 [8 favorites]


And I am in the "I should never see breast-feeding" camp, so I am attuned to that sort of thing.

This attitude never ceases to puzzle me and I can only assume it means a person has never seen much actual breastfeeding. It's rare that you see anything much while it's happening besides a mother holding her child. To actually see that bit of skin or nipple requires staring, and we all know that's rude. If you're not staring at every woman holding a chlid, you probably will miss most episodes of breastfeeding that are already taking place.

I think the whole idea that breasts extrude milk into a baby's mouth really bothers some people, and I don't know what to say to them other than "don't stare at them while that's happening then." Any kind of eating is disgusting if you stare at the people doing it and listen to the noises they make and think about it too hard, but most of us manage not to be bothered.

What we need is for public breastfeeding to become so common that pretty much everyone adjusts their idea of normal to include it.
posted by emjaybee at 9:25 AM on July 7, 2013 [4 favorites]


What's weird, if you think about it, is that it's not like live in the Victorian era. It's hot as Satan's butt crack here and boobs are pretty out and about. But God forbid anybody exposes a nipple. Think of the controversy generated by Janet Jackson's exposed nipple. It's like nipples are capable of shooting death rays.
posted by angrycat at 10:11 AM on July 7, 2013 [7 favorites]


There's a TV ad for Luvs diapers currently running that I love, which not only shows a woman breastfeeding in public but also declares that she's an "expert" for doing so and heavily implies that the flummoxed waiter is in the wrong for all the flummoxing. I think that's about as mainstream as I've seen. (Standard "do not read the comments" on that YouTube link apply.)
posted by jaguar at 10:21 AM on July 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


It's rare that you see anything much while it's happening besides a mother holding her child. To actually see that bit of skin or nipple requires staring, and we all know that's rude.

People always say this and I, as a breastfeeding mother, can't ever manage it. I can't seem to not have acres of chest on display, way more than I would ever show when not breastfeeding. I'm fine with feeding my baby in public, but I'm less fine with showing Renaissance Fair levels of cleavage to all and sundry. So I use a light blanket and try to find an out of the way spot. I don't like the implication that because I'm more comfortable being more covered up I have somehow internalized shame about breastfeeding and my body, and if I were truly--I don't know...liberated?--I would whip it out anywhere.
posted by apricot at 10:25 AM on July 7, 2013 [9 favorites]


I have never understood why this is a discussion.

1. Everyone seems to agree that breastmilk is by far the best nutrition for infants.
2. Infants need to eat frequently.


Big Pharma is clearly using the OMG public boobs folks to drive sales of formula.

We have moved through the looking glass, people.
posted by nevercalm at 10:37 AM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


"It's hot as Satan's butt crack here and boobs are pretty out and about. But God forbid anybody exposes a nipple."

Given that there are totally weirdo creeps who do think nipples shoot death rays and corrupt children -- I think for most people it's really this issue of accidentally intruding and feeling embarrassed about having done so. Someone's walking around in a bikini, that's fine, that's a wardrobe choice, no big deal. You're in Starbucks and a baby starts crying and you glance over (because crying babies demand your primate attention) and you realize mom is trying to latch the baby on and OH GOD I JUST LOOKED AT HER BREAST AND MAYBE SHE DIDN'T WANT ME TO, SHE IS JUST TRYING TO FEED THE BABY AND I AM MAKING HER FEEL AWKWARD BY ACCIDENTALLY GLANCING WHY DOESN'T THE EARTH JUST SWALLOW ME NOW FOR MY HORRIBLE VIOLATIONS OF SOCIAL NORMS????

To me, after the initial weirdness of doing a new thing in public, it was just like "whoops, just flashed the whole world my boob, oh well." And for a lot of women that's how they feel. But one of my good friends is very body-private and she is MORTIFIED when she accidentally exposes her breast during breastfeeding. And people can have different levels of body-privateness, that is okay! I just don't know if the woman I have glanced at is like me and it's no big deal, or like my friend and is dying inside from embarrassment, so I therefore must die inside from embarrassment because I might have inadvertently caused embarrassment, it is just how things work around here.

That's why I think it's good to be able to talk about the minor awkwardness -- in appropriate settings, of course -- because then people learn that for most women it's like, "yeah, it's no big deal, it happens, just don't stare," and even for women like my friend it's like, "I kind-of hate it, but I accept it as part of life and don't hold glancing against anybody," so that people without much experience of breastfeeding, who are naturally curious about it and its social norms, can understand better and relax. I still feel the rush of embarrassment when I inadvertently look but I'm able to remind myself, "no big deal!" I think sometimes people turn that social anxiety and embarrassment into anger and resentment about the situation that has embarrassed them, so it's good for people to be able to talk about the social anxiety and learn it's not a big deal, and not proceed to getting all resentful about it.

BTW, my experience was that most people who were visibly uncomfortable with public breastfeeding (by body language) fell into three groups: teenagers (who are incredibly body-conscious and also socially awkward; they mostly just fastidiously stared elsewhere because mom-people still have lots of social authority); men over the age of 60 or so (it wasn't common here when they were parenting age and they're not used to it, but most of them are aware of social changes around public breastfeeding and they just avert their eyes but don't really like talking to you while you're nursing if they can avoid it); and men in their 20s whose peers haven't started having kids yet, who aren't real sure how to react to female bodies on non-sexual display and haven't really had a reason to learn the norms of breastfeeding because they're not into that life phase yet. The last group are the ones who seem most likely to get aggressive about their discomfort, it seemed to me because they're not deferential to women-as-moms the way teenagers (still under mom's control) and older people (who've been through having kids) are.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:43 AM on July 7, 2013 [7 favorites]


There's a TV ad for Luvs diapers currently running that I love, which not only shows a woman breastfeeding in public but also declares that she's an "expert" for doing so and heavily implies that the flummoxed waiter is in the wrong for all the flummoxing. I think that's about as mainstream as I've seen.

I love that commercial. The first time I saw it, I could've sworn afterword you saw her whole breast and even her nipple, and then I watched it again, and nope, hardly can see anything at all. And I love the look the toddler gives the waiter, too.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:03 AM on July 7, 2013




I posted to facebook the first time I saw that commercial because it made me laugh and it's so unusual to see positive portrayals of breastfeeding in mainstream media, especially lighthearted ones that aren't lecturey. I love it.

(Related note, it is really difficult to find children's books where babies are breastfed rather than bottle fed, which struck me as quite odd.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:14 AM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Eh, considering the weird moral panic about OMG BABBY SAW A BOOB it doesn't seem that odd to me at all. I bet you can find plenty of kid's books with breastfeeding depictions from Europe, though.
posted by elizardbits at 11:37 AM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Related note, it is really difficult to find children's books where babies are breastfed rather than bottle fed, which struck me as quite odd.

Some mums are uncomfortable with tits in a book. You can avoid scaring away the idiotic prude market if you just have a bottle.
posted by Space_Lady at 11:38 AM on July 7, 2013


Yes, the poet is writing as a Londoner, I think (she's Oxbridge, post-grad at SOAS, London-based according to LinkedIn.) So that might skew things: London is a very different place from the rest of the country.

People always say this and I, as a breastfeeding mother, can't ever manage it.

My wife does something clever with her designed-for-breastfeeding top and under-top and designed-for-breastfeeding bra, so it's pretty discreet, which makes her comfortable. One bit goes up, one goes down, something goes sideways, the nipple only comes out when the baby's mouth is inches away and in front of it. (Usually!) It's all very cunning and private. (Usually!) She doesn't put a muslin over the whole thing unless the baby is getting distracted - I think that probably makes it less conspicuous that she's nursing.

(Huge apologies in that I feel I'm 'mansplaining' here, but the clothes and equipment and custom here may be different from what is available or common where you are, so I volunteer this solely as our personal experience.)
posted by alasdair at 11:59 AM on July 7, 2013


Meh. I'm not into babies at all, and I don't like to be close to anyone who is breastfeeding. So if that happens, I remove myself from the situation; in my view, my right not to see / hear / smell breastfeeding does not trump the right of mothers to breastfeed and the right of babies to be breastfed.

It's ridiculous the way breasts (with the nipple covered, depending on where you are) in the public domain are obviously fine and dandy as long as they're sexualized.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:18 PM on July 7, 2013


but there's public and then there's public

No. Actually there isn't.


You can argue that breastfeeding should be normal everywhere, but that still doesn't necessitate "public is public". I've seen people change diapers in semi-public situations like porches or living rooms with guests, but i don't expect that to become normal in the middle of malls.

I am not saying breastfeeding should be restricted - just that this is not a very sound argument. There are gradients of public, and people can be more comfortable with various behaviors in more personal environments. Whether feeding one's baby should be considered a personal/ intimate act or a shared /public act is a separate question.
posted by mdn at 1:00 PM on July 7, 2013


Well if you don't like breastfeeding in public you're just going love a hungry baby screaming the place down.
posted by sgt.serenity at 1:03 PM on July 7, 2013 [4 favorites]


I agree that women should breastfeed anywhere they want, but there's public and then there's public. Front porches aren't shopping malls.
But if your home doesn't have a front porch, keep it inside...
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 1:17 PM on July 7, 2013


I once breastfed while riding on the Metro in Washington DC. Nobody said anything. Probably if anyone noticed they were happy that the baby had stopped screaming.
posted by Daily Alice at 1:52 PM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Nipples shoot laser beams of lust. Shame the victim, remember?
posted by Brocktoon at 2:04 PM on July 7, 2013


Recently I saw a young woman walk into a shop with an infant, breastfeeding while walking round the aisles. She had her mother with her pushing the trolley. Now that is the first time I have ever seen that - but! Big but: if you didn't know what breastfeeding looked like you wouldn't have known she was doing it.

I'm finding it odd someone says public breastfeeding was common in the 50s and 60s, that was not my experience. When I started having babies in 1979 the few of us who breastfed were like some kind of radical guerilla brigade, honestly. Most women gave up before they left hospital, so, after the milk proper came in but before the end of the second week. And I can remember many, many reported battles in the local news where mothers had been turfed out of a cafe or a pub for breastfeeding. A friend of mine in this situation said she would leave quietly as long as not a single customer could be found in the pub in possession of a paper featuring Page 3 Girls (topless models on page 3.) And o my god, do I remember being asked to feed the baby in the bogs. Gross. What improved the situation was getting better at feeding the baby without anyone noticing - which posters above have mentioned.

Though in those days children in general weren't welcome in your average pub. It's different now.

Heck, quite a few pubs wouldn't allow women in either.

Now those babies are grown up with kids of their own. It's better for them, but there's still a way to go. Only last year Bristol mums organised a breastfeeding sit-in at a cafe that had asked a nursing mother to leave the premises.

To return to the vision of women sitting on their doorsteps breastfeeding....that to me is like invoking some very far away myth of the working classes. Not to deny any one's contrary experience, but it's not within my experience, nor that of my mother, nor that of my grandmother in a fairly deprived Durham pit-village. I've lived in the North, and I've lived in Liverpool, and that sort of on-the-street community living was long dead by the time I got there. Also, in the UK, breastfeeding is very strongly correlated with mother's education level, which in turn is strongly correlated with class. Ante-natal teams put a lot of effort into encouraging and supporting breast-feeding, which perhaps indicates there are structural and cultural barriers to nursing successfully.

Also, reported last month for UK, and attributed to funding cuts "New figures suggest that 5,700 fewer women initiated breastfeeding with their child in 2012-13 than the year before. It is the first recorded fall since the Department of Health began collecting and releasing the statistics in 2004."
posted by glasseyes at 2:43 PM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


1) Letting me have like a year or whatever off of work.
This made me laugh because many young women I know have done this, with a little shuffling between statutory maternity pay and paid leave.

2) Ensuring that doctors make housecalls since I am pretty sure that new mothers and young babies need to see doctors a lot and if we can't go out in public then we are sort of screwed there.
And midwives and health visitors do check mothers and newborns at home for about 2 weeks. And leave information about mother-and-baby groups organised by age of baby - I really liked taking my grandchild to hers. Mind you, only once or twice a week, so nothing like daycare. Still, a good way to get new mothers out of the house, check that the baby is thriving etc. The babies get weighed during the session, if the mothers want.

3) Having someone deliver food, clothing, toiletries, pretty much any shopping I have to do to my home.
Supermarkets mostly deliver now. They didn't when my kids were young, though my MIL, who grew up in the country, used to get her groceries delivered in the 50s.

4) Giving my partner and/or friends a bunch of time off work so I don't go effing crazy sitting around with a baby all day no matter how much I love him/her.
And paternity leave in UK I think, averages about 2 weeks. I have a feeling fathers could get more time off but it wouldn't be paid.

A Dutch woman I know was fuming about UK's paltry provision - she said in Holland a maternity nurse comes to your house and looks after you for SIX WEEKS, including doing all the cooking and looking after any other children - and after that time the father can take his paternity leave if he likes. Can this be true, I ask myself?

However as for the underground tunnels, no, there's nothing like that here.

Oh, oh! but I've read that in France, they come round to your house and make you do your kagels. With an instrument.
posted by glasseyes at 3:01 PM on July 7, 2013


what like with a bassoon? or is it a flugelhorn because lol
posted by elizardbits at 3:06 PM on July 7, 2013 [7 favorites]



My Mom told me that although she would breastfeed in public if she needed too she tried not to with my youngest sister when I was around, which was most of the time. When she'd do it I would proudly announce to everyone that my sister was being fed with my Mommy's booby. You should see!

Apparently I would forget that she asked me not to do it, every time. Guess I thought it was really exciting and everyone should know. lol
posted by Jalliah at 4:00 PM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Nope, women shouldn't have to cover their baby's head to feed said baby.
posted by lola99 at 4:32 PM on July 7, 2013


Jalliah: Well it is pretty amazing when you think about it.
posted by ODiV at 6:37 PM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


I once saw a picture in a magazine of a very genorously endowed Egyptian woman wearing full nikab breast-feeding her baby in a very public setting, the market place.

There were men present. None of them were paying this situation any mind whatsoever. Her breast was fully exposed. All you could see of her face was her eyes.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:41 PM on July 7, 2013


People always say this and I, as a breastfeeding mother, can't ever manage it. I can't seem to not have acres of chest on display, way more than I would ever show when not breastfeeding.

I wore black t-shirts almost exclusively the entire 15 months my daughter was breastfeeding, and if you whip it out the bottom, the t-shirt basically covers the whole upper part of you that is not covered by baby. I only had one time when I felt like I was really naked from the waist up, and that was at a close friend's wedding. I bought a shirtwaist dress that buttoned all up the front, thinking it was a clever way to get to wear a dress and still breastfeed. Only then I started undoing buttons and realizing how undressed I was going to be. And THEN the bride's parents made their way to our table and I got to meet her lovely parents for the first time with a whole huge portion of my chest on display. That was probably the most uncomfortable I ever was the whole time I breastfed. I went back to t-shirts and stayed there.

As for public disapproval, once at the public library a young, clearly mortified library assistant came over to where I was comfortably sitting in the magazine area, feeding my kid, to tell me they'd had complaints and he wasn't sure but he thought I was going to have to stop. This must have been 9-10 months in, because I just laughed and said, I think you need to go check with your manager about that. About ten minutes later he came back, red-faced, flustered, obviously miserable, and apologized profusely. I knew what had happened--I'd sat across from an elderly guy who was reading and before long I started to feed my daughter. He got up within a minute and I've no doubt went and blasted the poor library dude at the counter. I felt really bad for the poor worker.

I will say that was the only time I got so much as a nasty glance, but it was really, really hard to do at first. By the time I wound down the milk machine I'd become an expert, but I can remember how terrified I was the first time I had to breastfeed my daughter in public, in a mall. I was sure every single person would be staring. It was a relief when no one gave us a second look.
posted by looli at 6:50 PM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well, believe it or not, I was born in the mid-60s in the U.S., and my white, middle-class, American-born mom breastfed me until I weaned myself at about one year of age. She was one of the early members of La Leche League. So, clearly she has her breastfeeding bona fides. I just e-mailed her to ask how she dealt with breastfeeding me in public and this is what she said:

"I don't remember anyone giving me a hard time. There are ways to do it very inconspicuously. You just pull up your shirt just far enough and then you can drape a diaper or sweater or something over your shoulder for a little more cover. There is no need to have your naked breast hanging out in public—I think someone who did that was trying to provoke a reaction or something."

I didn't say anyone had their naked breast hanging out, she just assumed that, which is interesting--she apparently got so little disapproval back then that that's what she thinks it would take to incur it. Her experience is pretty much the opposite of what I'd imagine based on everything I've ever read about attitudes toward breastfeeding back then. Maybe things are actually worse now?
posted by HotToddy at 7:16 PM on July 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also, can't miss a chance to throw in my favorite bit of breastfeeding trivia: For those of you familiar with the awesome Karen Pryor, one of the leaders of the clicker training revolution, know that she was also a leading breastfeeding activist, author of many articles and books on breastfeeding, very active with La Leche League. What an amazing legacy!
posted by HotToddy at 7:23 PM on July 7, 2013


My view of a lot of this discussion is through feminist websites, so my perspective may be very skewed, but it seems to me that the current debate is, at least in part, about the right to breastfeed in public uncovered by a blanket or towel or whatever (most of the reasoning being that either some kids won't eat with their heads covered, or that it's awkward and hot for the mother). So I wonder if there are a larger proportion of breastfeeding women showing more skin now than there were in previous decades, and if the backlash is because of that. (I think the backlash is ridiculous and anti-feminist in all cases, fwiw.)
posted by jaguar at 7:48 PM on July 7, 2013


Etrigan: I agree that women should breastfeed anywhere they want, but there's public and then there's public. Front porches aren't shopping malls.
Two completely contradictory statements, followed by a completely irrelevant statement.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:22 PM on July 7, 2013


It helps when you look at the context.
posted by ODiV at 11:00 PM on July 7, 2013


And to be a little less brusque about it, here is the context with relevant parts quoted:

Jakob:
We've got twins, so breastfeeding them in public can sometimes be a bit of a trial, and I'm aware of the discomfort the tutting and looks can arouse. However, like McNish, we're in the UK...

PeterMcDermott:
Is this a Southern thing? Or a recent thing?

My mother breastfed us in public, and my wife breastfed her kids in public. I don't remember anyone bitching about it. It was just what everyone did in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

One of the dominant memories of my childhood in the 60's was seeing women sitting on their front doorsteps, breastfeeding their kids while they chatted with the neighbours in the street. They were so unselfconscious about it that they wouldn't dream of bothering to go and do it indoors.


Etrigan:
I agree that women should breastfeed anywhere they want, but there's public and then there's public. Front porches aren't shopping malls.

Hope that helps. Sorry for snapping at you, but I felt like Etrigan was being repeatedly misread and it was getting on my nerves.
posted by ODiV at 11:09 PM on July 7, 2013


And just for additional context -- the streets where I lived as a kid were made up of rented terraced houses -- three up, three downs (three small bedrooms, two sitting rooms and a kitchen. No bathroom, outside toilet.)

Think Coronation Street. No stoops. No porches. The doorstep was literally a step between the living room and the street.

It was about as public as I can imagine a public space being -- with the caveat that in those days, streets felt as though they were dominated and controlled by the communities who lived in them rather than landlords or police or whoever.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:58 PM on July 7, 2013


I'm finding it odd someone says public breastfeeding was common in the 50s and 60s, that was not my experience. When I started having babies in 1979 the few of us who breastfed were like some kind of radical guerilla brigade, honestly.

So our kids would be about the same age. My oldest is 32, my youngest 24. I just asked my wife to make sure I'm not misremembering her experience. Her recollection is that the only people she knew who didn't breastfeed were people who struggled to figure out how to do it, or those who found it incompatible with continuing to work.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:02 AM on July 8, 2013


When my mother was breastfeeding me and then my sister in the early 80s in Canada it felt to her like there was a lot of pressure from the community and health officials to go with formula instead.

And then when she grew up it seemed to go in cycles and had a lot to do with class and income. When the lower class was doing it one way, then the upper class would do the opposite. Then every once and awhile they would switch.
posted by ODiV at 12:09 AM on July 8, 2013


Back when she was growing up, I should have said. That wasn't super clear.
posted by ODiV at 12:15 AM on July 8, 2013


It's like nipples are capable of shooting death rays.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course nipples don't shoot death rays - they shoot laser bullets.

I was super worried about being hassled for breastfeeding in public. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it's been a nonissue. Lucky for me.

I do think it's interesting that one of the main defenses given of public breastfeeding is that you can't really see the breasts. This is true, but strikes me as a bit beside the point. Wouldn't breastfeeding still be fine even if you could see lots of breast all the time?
posted by medusa at 4:21 AM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


There's a great scene in the first episode of the new show, Ray Donovan (with Liev Schreiber) -- Jon Voight, on a flight to LA to visit his sons after 20 years in prison, sees a young mother breastfeeding a row behind him and he's been away so long, and he's so out of touch, that he can't take his eyes of her breast and actually tries hitting on her while she's breastfeeding. The scene is brief but manages to be creepy, timely and pathetic all at the same time.
posted by thinkpiece at 5:34 AM on July 8, 2013


IAmBroom: Two completely contradictory statements, followed by a completely irrelevant statement.

Not contradictory in the slightest. Had you actually read the exchange, he was commenting on other people's ease with situation "A" does not equaling ease with situation "B", because even though both are technically public, they are not equally so.

The concluding statement in completely relevant to comment he quoted and responded to.
posted by spaltavian at 5:55 AM on July 8, 2013


True, but as a matter of sociological fact I think that breastfeeding "in public" was less of an issue in the 60s than it is today.

I think, at least amongst working-class women here in the UK, there was probably less breastfeeding in general. Myself and my two siblings were bottle-fed in the early 70s and early 80s, partly because breastfeeding was less emphasised than it is today. My sister had her children in the early '90s and I'm not sure whether things had changed by then, but definitely all the women I know who've had children recently are breastfeeding. Formula adverts here now have a disclaimer discouraging use before the six-month mark, and it's illegal to discount or offer loyalty points on formula milk here, but it wasn't always the case that breastmilk was promoted as the best option rather than one of two.
posted by mippy at 6:15 AM on July 8, 2013


A Dutch woman I know was fuming about UK's paltry provision - she said in Holland a maternity nurse comes to your house and looks after you for SIX WEEKS, including doing all the cooking and looking after any other children - and after that time the father can take his paternity leave if he likes. Can this be true, I ask myself?

glasseyes no this isn't correct, they come for ten days. We have 16 weeks maternity leave here (many women negotiate more with their employers) and statutory paternity leave is 3 days I believe. I can't quite remember.

The short maternity leave here is one of the reasons why relatively few Dutch babies are breastfed for very long. Which is ironic really because society here is very accepting of public breastfeeding, to the point where there are no laws protecting it because it has rarely been an issue. As US/UK attitudes become more prevalent here, it is beginning to become a problem as women are occasionally asked to leave cafes, shops etc when breastfeeding. Thankfully I have never had any issues in this regard.
posted by rubbish bin night at 6:55 AM on July 8, 2013


From glasseyes' link:
The figures provide evidence of some startling regional variations. In areas with high levels of social deprivation – such as Knowsley, Hartlepool and North East Lincolnshire – four in five mothers are not breastfeeding at all some six to eight weeks after their child's birth. By contrast, in Kensington, west London, 87% of mothers said they were partially or totally breastfeeding at the same stage.
Wow. I wonder what the causes of that are? I'd guess that mothers from deprived areas are dramatically less able to take extended maternity leave, but are there also problems with education/expectations that leads mothers who could breastfeed to decide against it?

Eyebrows McGee - BTW, my experience was that most people who were visibly uncomfortable with public breastfeeding (by body language) fell into three groups: teenagers (who are incredibly body-conscious and also socially awkward) [...] and men in their 20s whose peers haven't started having kids yet

I was a socially akward teenager and am now a (marginally less akward) guy in my 20s, who has never spent much time around babies. I think your assessment is dead on. At least a handful of people over the years have seen me react akwardly to the sight of someone breastfeeding, but it has never been because I disapprove. Instead, it's because I've glanced over a crowd of people, had the feeling that "wait, something back there didn't fit the pattern", and looked back to work out what had struck me as being unusual. All of the akwardness came from the realisation that an unknown number of people just saw me do a double-take to stare directly at a nursing mother, and probably concluded that I'm either a prude or a creeper.
posted by metaBugs at 7:46 AM on July 8, 2013


My guess is the people (mostly men) who don't like public breastfeeding have similar misgivings about women discussing their period: because to them, female bodies are for male pleasure and nothing more.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 8:57 AM on July 8, 2013


Uther, not for me. My uncomfortableness with public breastfeeding is that I have always been told not to stare at people in various states of undress, but what happens when you are in the middle of a conversation with someone and all of a sudden out pops the boob and the baby gets latched on. I try and keep eye contact (I normally look at peoples mouths when talking with them) and just act like nothing has happened, but it does make me somewhat uncomfortable. I don't want to fondle the boobs or anything like that it is more of a "you're not supposed to see this" in the same way that men don't talk to each other at a urinal. It is more of a question of where do I look now and what if I glance down at the kid because they made a noise or something now I'm looking at boob, but I've always been told not to look at boob etc etc.

I would still support anyone breastfeeding in public anywhere as long as they were comfortable because my comfort doesn't really matter. Baby privilege trumps all.
posted by koolkat at 9:14 AM on July 8, 2013


spaltavian: IAmBroom: Two completely contradictory statements, followed by a completely irrelevant statement.

Not contradictory in the slightest. Had you actually read the exchange, he was commenting on other people's ease with situation "A" does not equaling ease with situation "B", because even though both are technically public, they are not equally so.

The concluding statement in completely relevant to comment he quoted and responded to.
OK, I'll spell it out:
Etrigan: I agree that women should breastfeed anywhere they want, but there's public and then there's public. Front porches aren't shopping malls.
IF women should breastfeed anywhere they want, definitions of what is considered "public" suggest that there are some "public" areas where they shouldn't breastfeed.... which contradicts the statement that they should. Clear?

"Front porches aren't shopping malls" is irrelevant, because women should be allowed to breastfeed anywhere they want, per Etrigan's first statement. Hollie McNish isn't one of PeterMcDermott's neighbor ladies from the 60's, either but he didn't bother making that unimportant distinction.

The only possible conclusion is that Etrigan wants to pretend that he supports women breastfeeding wherever want (which is PC and totes cool on Metafilter), but in reality he clearly thinks there are places they shouldn't (which is considered douchey by many, especially those who are mothers, and those who feel empathy for mothers).
posted by IAmBroom at 9:21 AM on July 8, 2013


I do think it's interesting that one of the main defenses given of public breastfeeding is that you can't really see the breasts. This is true, but strikes me as a bit beside the point. Wouldn't breastfeeding still be fine even if you could see lots of breast all the time?

Yes. The bigger point here is women should be allowed to go topless. Why not?

My guess is the people (mostly men) who don't like public breastfeeding have similar misgivings about women discussing their period: because to them, female bodies are for male pleasure and nothing more.

That is rather uncharitable. People have body issues. Several members above have stated their discomfort with public breastfeeding in a sensitive fashion. Be nice! :P

I think it's a wonderful first post on the blue, about breastfeeding and breastfeeding is something that we should really should've gotten used to in all aspects of society by now. Breastfeeding.

Breastfeeding is wonderful. The poem was powerful (I particularly liked when she got in the economic angle at the end), but it should have linked straight to YouTube. my2c.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:25 AM on July 8, 2013


BTW, my experience was that most people who were visibly uncomfortable with public breastfeeding (by body language) fell into three groups: teenagers (who are incredibly body-conscious and also socially awkward; they mostly just fastidiously stared elsewhere because mom-people still have lots of social authority); men over the age of 60 or so ...

You haven't spent much time with mothers-in-law. I would change "men over the age of 60 or so" to "anyone over the age of 60" ... there are definitely lots of people who actively disapprove of women breastfeeding in public, and my guess is that half are women.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:28 AM on July 8, 2013


The only possible conclusion is that Etrigan wants to pretend that he supports women breastfeeding wherever want (which is PC and totes cool on Metafilter), but in reality he clearly thinks there are places they shouldn't

No, he clearly thinks that other people's reactions are influenced by locational context. That some people (who are not him) may react one way if a woman is nursing in front of her own house and another if she is nursing at a shopping mall, even though both are public. This was stated quite explicitly and isn't a difficult concept to understand.
posted by 0 at 9:45 AM on July 8, 2013


IAmBroom: Etrigan: I agree that women should breastfeed anywhere they want, but there's public and then there's public. Front porches aren't shopping malls.
IF women should breastfeed anywhere they want, definitions of what is considered "public" suggest that there are some "public" areas where they shouldn't breastfeed.... which contradicts the statement that they should. Clear?


What's "clear" is that you either refuse to read the entire comment or are being delibrately obtuse. The person writing that is not suggesting there are some areas one shouldn't breastfeed. They are suggesting that they are degrees of publicness, and that while the people in the original anecdote, not the writer, may be fine with breastfeeding in one public setting, that doesn't mean they would be okay with it in all situations that could be legally considered "public". Again, the people in the original anecdote.

One more time: the people in the original ancedote. Note the writer of the comment.

The only real claim Etrigan is making is that "public" is generally thought of in sense of degrees rather than a legalistic binary categorization. And that's pretty reasonable. It's irrelevant to his personal view on breastfeeding, because as he said a million times, he thinks it's okay everywhere. But the people in the original ancedote may not think that way. Has Etigan explained himself:

My point -- which I'll reiterate is not that breastfeeding should be disallowed anywhere -- is that PeterMcDermott recalling women breastfeeding on their own front porches in the 1960s does not mean that no one would have objected to women doing it anywhere else.

Why are you ignoring this reasonable, logical comment?


"Front porches aren't shopping malls" is irrelevant, because women should be allowed to breastfeed anywhere they want, per Etrigan's first statement.

It's completely relevant to other people's accceptance, which was the point of the comment, not a debate whether it was okay or not.

The only possible conclusion is that Etrigan wants to pretend

The more likely conclusion is that you are being delibrately obtuse, but the more difficult question is why.
posted by spaltavian at 9:46 AM on July 8, 2013 [1 favorite]


Death Ray Nipples would make a good band name.
posted by sharpener at 1:32 PM on July 8, 2013


You can argue that breastfeeding should be normal everywhere, but that still doesn't necessitate "public is public". I've seen people change diapers in semi-public situations like porches or living rooms with guests, but i don't expect that to become normal in the middle of malls.

My boy is about to turn 7 months old and I'll warn you - it will if I'm in the mall and it's another backwards shithole where the men's room doesn't have a changing table. That's my fallback bit of passive-aggressiveness when my aggressive-aggressiveness (asking the manager to come tell my wife she has to change the dirty diaper instead of me if it's a man, or to clear the ladies room or change the boy's diaper if it's a woman) fails me.

The day I got to tell a complainant "yeah, it is gross, isn't it? You should go ask the management why there's no changing tables in the men's" was one of my better weeks.

tl;dr: Fuck yeah, Hollie McNish.
posted by phearlez at 2:38 PM on July 8, 2013 [7 favorites]


The day I got to tell a complainant "yeah, it is gross, isn't it? You should go ask the management why there's no changing tables in the men's" was one of my better weeks.

phearlez, that is sooooo awesome. I would love to hear how the person responded.
posted by medusa at 3:50 PM on July 8, 2013


I turned my back on him and he either sensed that I wasn't going to get any more pleasant or whatever woman he was with told him to STFU, either because she though it was bullshit sexism too or because she was concerned that in about 2 seconds the cranky man would have a very toxic projectile.

I'm not a changing table nazi; I think businesses can make whatever bad choices about their customers' comfort they like. But it is beyond me how any business in 2013 still has it in women's rooms but not men's.
posted by phearlez at 6:29 PM on July 8, 2013


phearlez - one of the things I've been seeing pop up in several of the (admittedly very new) malls and shopping centers here in Northern Colorado have been "Family" bathrooms. These are typically a very large unisex single-seater (or in very large public areas they might be dual rooms) with a changing table and an exterior door that locks! It's awesome! I hope it becomes the norm elsewhere!
posted by lonefrontranger at 1:53 PM on July 9, 2013


The person writing that is not suggesting there are some areas one shouldn't breastfeed.

Yes, granted, but that comment is atrociously written, and whatever the intent, it's a totally defensible reading of it as saying "babies shouldn't be breastfed in public-public".

It hangs on the "but". By analogy:
Peter McOtherUniverse: I remember in the 60s we weren't segregated at all. Black people rode at the front of our rural bus.

Etrigone: I agree that races shouldn't be segregated, but there's buses and there's buses. A rural bus is not a Greyhound".
The primary reading of that to me is "I actually think races should be segregated, at least on Greyhounds".

I don't think Etrigan was being "repeatedly misread"; I think he was singularly badly written, and then clarified his point so defensively/aggressively it made people reluctant to let go of the suspicions raised by the original, fishily weasel, wording.

Anyway: this video was awesome. Thank you for posting it!
posted by bonaldi at 5:53 PM on July 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Your analogy is completely false because, like IAmBroom, you insist on ignoring that Etrigan was speculating on how other people would feel. You actually have to read entire comments. No, it's not a defensible reading, it's literally the stupidest reading that still recognizes English words.

Your analogy is too awful to really do anything with, but to simplify Etrigan's response to formal logic: "What you are saying is all situation A is actually two different situations; A and B. I am fine with action X in both A and B. However, just because people in your childhood were okay with X in A, that doesn't mean they would be okay with it in B, because A and B are different in practice, if not in law.

This really isn't that hard.
posted by spaltavian at 5:52 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


you insist on ignoring that Etrigan was speculating on how other people would feel.

I'm not ignoring it; I totally accept that's what Etrigan was trying to say. What I'm saying is that he failed to do so.

If one phrases their comment in a way that when read in isolation looks inflammatory, it's a terrible defence to go "hey, in the context of these other two comments an alternative reading appears, which is the only reading you should have taken you morons".

This really isn't that hard.
It seems to be. It was obvious from the second Etrigan posted that he was being misread by multiple people. That's because the post is really badly written, and depends on context that it doesn't even allude to.

People are reading him wrongly, yes. But it's not their fault. Stop picking on them for it. He should have taken more care.
posted by bonaldi at 7:22 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


(Arg, I posted that too soon. He does quote some of his context, but in a way that actually makes it worse because, again, he uses "but" as if contradicting the practice, rather than the belief.)
posted by bonaldi at 7:25 AM on July 10, 2013


People are reading him wrongly, yes. But it's not their fault.

It is their fault if they are still arguing about it days later when Etrigan posted the clarification an hour after the first comment. At that point, saying he "clearly" meant something he didn't really starts to look more like point scoring than good faith debate. (And, yes, now I'm arguing about days later as well. I just don't get why this is still a thing, but I'll not mention it again.)
posted by 0 at 7:35 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


To paraphrase one of PeterMcDermott's countrymen:

I apologize. I'm really, really, sorry. I apologize unreservedly. I offer a complete and utter retraction. My comment was totally without basis in fact, and was in no way fair comment, and was motivated purely by malice. And I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused MeFites, or their families, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future.

Jesus, you take a few days off...
posted by Etrigan at 10:22 AM on July 10, 2013


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