Stand Your Ground
July 13, 2013 11:15 PM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: Sorry, but this is really, really framed in an inflammatory "outragefilter" way, with two short blog posts and a news link. If you want to rework this, please contact us. -- taz
Seven Faces of NRA/ALEC-Approved "Stand Your Ground" Law
Disturbing chart shows rise in “justified killings” of blacks in U.S.
NAACP petition to open a civil rights case against George Zimmerman
posted by Artw at 11:18 PM on July 13, 2013
Disturbing chart shows rise in “justified killings” of blacks in U.S.
NAACP petition to open a civil rights case against George Zimmerman
posted by Artw at 11:18 PM on July 13, 2013
And the second-guessing of our justice system and the jury begins.
posted by mrbill at 11:20 PM on July 13, 2013
posted by mrbill at 11:20 PM on July 13, 2013
As it should.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 11:21 PM on July 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 11:21 PM on July 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
Well; yeah. No one disputes that Mr. Zimmerman actively chased Treyvon Martin. So how does a "stand your ground" defense apply when you are the active aggressor of someone who may or may not have "attacked" in self defense?
That is the most puzzling aspect of this; it gives precedent for people to harass people they claim are "bad dudes" and then kill them if they retaliate. Isn't that a worrisome precedent?
posted by NiteMayr at 11:24 PM on July 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
That is the most puzzling aspect of this; it gives precedent for people to harass people they claim are "bad dudes" and then kill them if they retaliate. Isn't that a worrisome precedent?
posted by NiteMayr at 11:24 PM on July 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, I just saw news from "the other side of the tracks," where a black woman in FL is getting 20 years for firing warning shots in the air against an abusive husband.
posted by NorthernLite at 11:27 PM on July 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by NorthernLite at 11:27 PM on July 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Zimmerman armed himself, chased down Trayvon Martin, and eventually shot and killed the unarmed teenager."
Except that this isn't what happened. Zimmerman followed Martin, and a scuffle happened. Eventually, Zimmerman was on bottom getting beat, and he shot Martin out of self-defense.
But what happened in between? Martin doesn't get the right to beat on someone who was simply being creepy by following him and eventually approaching him. But Martin would, I would assume, get the right if Zimmerman had his gun pulled out or had initiated the fight with Martin. But we don't know whether these particular facts obtained or not. Innocent until proven guilty. This is the burden of our justice system.
posted by SollosQ at 11:27 PM on July 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Except that this isn't what happened. Zimmerman followed Martin, and a scuffle happened. Eventually, Zimmerman was on bottom getting beat, and he shot Martin out of self-defense.
But what happened in between? Martin doesn't get the right to beat on someone who was simply being creepy by following him and eventually approaching him. But Martin would, I would assume, get the right if Zimmerman had his gun pulled out or had initiated the fight with Martin. But we don't know whether these particular facts obtained or not. Innocent until proven guilty. This is the burden of our justice system.
posted by SollosQ at 11:27 PM on July 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
It shouldn't matter that it was six women who acquitted Zimmerman, but it does, somehow. How little people understand the many ways in which the social system is cast against them, and how readily they comply with furthering injustices within that same system. My heart breaks for Sybrina. I hope Zimmerman finds a conscience and lives out a miserable life wracked by guilt, and that Don West is slowly devoured by slugs.
"That jury took a few hours. An inevitable verdict, maybe, but usually it takes 'em just a few minutes." -- To Kill a Mockingbird, 1960. Justice Roberts was, of course, wrong: the country hasn't changed at all.
posted by Phire at 11:28 PM on July 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
"That jury took a few hours. An inevitable verdict, maybe, but usually it takes 'em just a few minutes." -- To Kill a Mockingbird, 1960. Justice Roberts was, of course, wrong: the country hasn't changed at all.
posted by Phire at 11:28 PM on July 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
If that's true, sollosq, where were zimmerman's visible injuries?
posted by mai at 11:29 PM on July 13, 2013
posted by mai at 11:29 PM on July 13, 2013
But yeah: "That is the most puzzling aspect of this; it gives precedent for people to harass people they claim are "bad dudes" and then kill them if they retaliate. Isn't that a worrisome precedent?"
That's messed up.
posted by SollosQ at 11:29 PM on July 13, 2013
That's messed up.
posted by SollosQ at 11:29 PM on July 13, 2013
A defense that, during closing, cited slave-owning rapist Thomas Jefferson
I'm not going to die on this hill, but is this seriously the post you're not going to delete?
posted by phaedon at 11:29 PM on July 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm not going to die on this hill, but is this seriously the post you're not going to delete?
posted by phaedon at 11:29 PM on July 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
If that's true, sollosq, where were zimmerman's visible injuries?
I understand there's photos, and the defense made much use of them in court.
posted by Dr Dracator at 11:30 PM on July 13, 2013
I understand there's photos, and the defense made much use of them in court.
posted by Dr Dracator at 11:30 PM on July 13, 2013
Martin doesn't get the right to beat on someone who was simply being creepy by following him and eventually approaching him.
So Martin doesn't get to invoke the Stand Your Ground laws when feeling threatened by an aggressor, but Zimmerman does in playing out a racist paranoid fantasy in which walking while black is a threat to his person? Sure, buddy.
posted by Phire at 11:31 PM on July 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
So Martin doesn't get to invoke the Stand Your Ground laws when feeling threatened by an aggressor, but Zimmerman does in playing out a racist paranoid fantasy in which walking while black is a threat to his person? Sure, buddy.
posted by Phire at 11:31 PM on July 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
If that's true, sollosq, where were zimmerman's visible injuries?
posted by mai at 11:29 PM on July 13 [+] [!]
From Wikipedia, with sources and photos, and as Dr Dracator indicated: "Smith handcuffed Zimmerman and removed his weapon from him. Smith observed that Zimmerman's back was wet and covered with grass and he was bleeding from the nose and the back of his head."
posted by SollosQ at 11:31 PM on July 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mai at 11:29 PM on July 13 [+] [!]
From Wikipedia, with sources and photos, and as Dr Dracator indicated: "Smith handcuffed Zimmerman and removed his weapon from him. Smith observed that Zimmerman's back was wet and covered with grass and he was bleeding from the nose and the back of his head."
posted by SollosQ at 11:31 PM on July 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
So Martin doesn't get to invoke the Stand Your Ground laws when feeling threatened by an aggressor, but Zimmerman does in playing out a racist paranoid fantasy in which walking while black is a threat to his person? Sure, buddy.
I don't know the legality, but I'm assuming there's some reasonable standard for "feeling threatened." Where getting beat on would generally immediately fall under "feeling threatened", but being approached by an individual would have to be investigated through due process.
posted by SollosQ at 11:32 PM on July 13, 2013
I don't know the legality, but I'm assuming there's some reasonable standard for "feeling threatened." Where getting beat on would generally immediately fall under "feeling threatened", but being approached by an individual would have to be investigated through due process.
posted by SollosQ at 11:32 PM on July 13, 2013
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posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 11:18 PM on July 13, 2013